Camp Gagnon - This Phenomenon is DARKER than Satan

Episode Date: September 15, 2026

Nathaniel J. Gillis ( @nathanieljgillis ) joins us today to dive deep into the chilling intersections of demonology, the UFO phenomenon, and occult practices throughout history. In this episode, we explore the origins of the Nephilim, physical entity manifestations, CE5 summonings, and how modern government compartmentalization mirrors ancient occult rituals. From Aleister Crowley and NASA’s hidden ties to Diana Walsh Pasulka's research and Nathaniel's most terrifying real-life cases, we examine what might truly be behind these manifestations. Welcome to Camp! 🏕️ Shoutout to our sponsors: Ultra, Perplexity, Blue Chew -Start your free trial of Perplexity Computer today at https://pplx.ai/camp and experience the next phase of AI. #ad -Don’t sleep on ULTRA Pouches. New customers get 15% Off with code CAMP at takeultra.com! #UltraPouches #ad Want the even WILDER theories? SIGN UP TO THE PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/cw/CampGagnon 👕🧢 Shop CAMP Merch: https://camp-rd.com/collections/ufo 🎟️ 🎫 Comedy Tour Tickets: https://markgagnonlive.com 🎩👽 Daily Dose Of History: https://www.dailytodayinhistory.com Timestamps: 00:00 - Intro 01:46 - Original ‘Demons’ + Nephilim Spirits 04:21 - Same Entity in Different Forms 07:34 - Phenomena Manifesting Physically 11:16 - Orb Manifestation + Testing Apports 19:07 - Dr. Tiller Experiments 22:42 - USSR Ball Lightning Study 25:24 - Are We Summoning Entities? + CE5 Practice 36:08 - Aleister Crowley’s LAM + Enochian Magic 39:35 - NASA’s Occult Rituals 43:08 - Fallen Angel Technology + Diana Walsh Pasulka’s Study 48:05 - Apports Connection to Demonology 53:14 - Issue w/ Replicating The Phenomenon 58:32 - Sigils Under Skin of Experiencers + Out of Body Experiences 1:07:26 - Yahweh's Battle w/ Necromancers 1:10:55 - Consciousness Merging w/ Altars + Tim Taylor’s Altars 1:20:47 - Disclosure Compartmentalization + Phenomena Attacks 1:26:03 - Presidents Briefed on The Phenomenon 1:29:08 - Similar Myths In Demonology 1:32:18 - Nathaniel’s Scariest Cases 1:46:36 - The Haunting Across The Street 1:54:50 - Documentation vs Experimentation #satan #foryou Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. What if performing a ritual doesn't summon an entity, but actually allows the entity to summon you? In this conversation with a researcher of the demonic Nathaniel Gillis, he reveals why Ouija board seances, sigil magic, and even alleged extraterrestrial contact protocols may actually be opening doors that can't be closed. We examine a coffee mug that just vanished, returned, and reportedly possessed a completely different atomic signature.

Claims of occult symbolism hidden inside government space programs and encounters in which glowing orbs appeared to construct physical beings from nothing. We go through Alastair Crowley's mysterious entity Lamb to a paranormal investigation that Nathaniel says ultimately became connected to a real murder. This episode asked a terrifying question. Are human beings contacting the unknown, or is there something on the other side teaching us how to let it in? If you're interested in forbidden rituals and Ouija boards in government occultism and

demonology and what may be waiting on the other side, well, you're in the right place. So sit back, relax, and welcome to camp. Nathanielis. Mark Gagnon. Thank you for joining me. Thank you. I'll be back, man. It's great to be here.

Absolutely. I'm very excited to chit chat today because we're going to be going deep, specifically into ritual. I'm fascinated by your work. As the good people watching it may be familiar, you are a phenomenology. you are a phenomenologist. Some on the internet have even called you a demonologist, which perhaps is not the most accurate label,

because as you've said to me, the term demon can sometimes be limiting in the scope of what we're talking about. Just to refresh the people, can you explain what a demon is? Well, I can give you various traditions. The earliest one we have, at least within the Jewish mindset of the Hebrew concept would be

the disembodied spirit of a Nephilim hybrid being, whose father was a fallen angel. The fallen angel mates with his mother, and they bear children. And now you have this Refiima Refiite, which is a giant that is possessed with consciousness. That consciousness is mutated. It's either evolved or devolved.

And when that body dies, that entity becomes an unclean spirit. And so that is, at least within my world, you, especially in my religious tradition I grew up, and that would be the definition of a demon. Now, if you get into Professor Estra Mori's work, she has a book called God's Monsters, I parade her book everywhere. I reference it often. Her first literary offering was women's divination and biblical literature, and then her second one was God's Monsters. But I like her work because what she does as a secular Jew is she goes into the Hebrew language, zooms in,

shows us the actual syntax of the words being employed. And when I first got a hold of her work, I was like, oh, no, because she gets into the Witch of Indoor in the Old Testament and kind of gets in different terminologies of Elohim, what is that? And then the idea that she proposes is that when the Witch of Indoor went to see Samuel or the ghost of Samuel, that it was not at all a quote unquote familiar spirit. it was not a demon, it was not, you know, the disembodied spirit of a hybrid.

It was post-mortem, post-biological consciousness that had reorganized its matter and was manifesting to this individual. That was the first time I ever heard that kind of scholarship. I'm not, you know, I'm not new to scholarship. I've never heard of that level of depth in terms of that. that text. And so when you get into her approach to demons, it actually gets deeper than just horns and hooves and even discarnate consciousness, which she proposes is that through the ancient worldview is that there were actually cryptids or beings that would fall underneath that umbrella that were also enveloped into demonology. Right. And you have a wonderful sort of framework

for looking at this. I hope. I think the people that are familiar with your work will know, that you have this term that I've said before, this idea of mythologizing the mask, that there is this sort of undergirding, in many cases, sinister consciousness that can embody different forms. And it can sort of co-create with your consciousness the way that it wants you to see it.

So it can become up as a sort of a demonic entity if you come from some type of religious persuasion. In some cases, perhaps even aliens and grays and UFOs could be this sort of sinister, you know, what we would call in the West, demonic kind of spirit. But again, that is too simple of a word. But there's some sort of like evil kind of consciousness

that's embodying this form. And it can show up as a gin. It can show up as a lady in white in some cases. It can show up as so many different sort of forms, depending on what you as the observer are wanting to be persuaded by and what's gonna invoke the most fear. Correct. And the reason I started researching that angle

of it is because I got tired of reading case studies where you'd have multiple witnesses of the same craft and many of them, if not most of them, saw completely different shapes, different colors. And just, yeah, it was a flying disk. No, it wasn't, right? It was kind of a pyramid. No, I saw red lights.

No, you didn't, I saw blue lights or they were strobing. No, they weren't, they were stationed. Right, two people seeing the same event, describing it not subtly differently, but vastly different. completely differently. Hey, real quick, most people who watch this channel aren't subscribed. And when you subscribe, you help the channel grow and you stay in the loop with every new drop. Religion camp, history camp, and camp gagnon. Now, let's get back to it. Now, something is there. I'm not denying that. The issue is, and this is another area of my research that I'm really wrestling with because it

appears to be, no pun intended, the observer effect, where you are collapsing the wave function differently, where you, to me, that would be the only explanation. as to how you would have multiple witnesses. They were focusing on one entity, but all of them, because they have their own consciousness and their own observations, they are collapsing it into different interfaces. And so what that means, though,

is that if I'm collapsing that into an interface, that's one of my favorite words now, then I go and I say, okay, this is what I collapsed into, and that actually exists in and of itself, that's a problem, because all we really know is what we're collapsing it into. Right. And that is a big, big issue.

Right. And you're saying people will see, you know, like, you give a great case of someone, you know, having some type of video camera setup. And they're interacting with some type of entity. And they see perhaps a ghost. Correct. And then they see sort of this apparition of a human being that's maybe translucent. And then they look at the video footage and they just see an orb. Right. And so the camera captures the orb because the camera doesn't have a consciousness or a belief. and the person sees a person, a manifestation, but ultimately underlying all of this is some type of consciousness

that's interfacing with people. So my question is what is ritual technology and is it possible for a person or a practitioner to summon these beings? We're going to have to root ourselves on the fertile soil of C.E5 if I can to build a foundation before I launch into that point

because it's a great point. So what I've noticed about this intelligence is that when it wants to manifest, it will seek to be seen. And so in other words, if it has to be visible, it will want to be seen in a way because we'll collapse it into something to where we are staring directly at our own mirror. And we don't realize it. It's no different than my buddy Paul St. Clair's cases in England. He has a case. I think it was in Bempton. And this will, for everybody that's looking at the phenomenon, it works like a program.

And this is an indicative of that data point where Paul Sinclair had a case study of a group of kids, maybe about teenagers, who were walking the length of a railroad track. And they see the clearing, they have trees, they see this bipedal creature walking out into the clearing and just staring at them. It was like a wolf man, a werewolf kind of figure. And it starts to chase them. Their hearts are pounding. They're sweating. They're terrified. One of them gets tripped up underneath his own feet, falls down.

And, of course, as good friends would, they leave him there. Same. Yeah, same, right? Go to do what you got to do. No, man. And they're petrified as they're watching this thing creeping over their friend. And this thing gets down right in front of his face. stares at him, his mouth gets big, and just as he would have devoured him, disappears.

What is that? Now, this gets back into another case study he had where a family is, they're driving on this country road, and they're being stalked by another bipedal creature, and they're going 45, 50 miles an hour, this thing is barely moving, but it's keeping pace. When it's keeping pace, but barely moving, that's a seam in the dream. If you're really running that fast, we would see it. What it's doing, though, is it's trying to appear somewhat belonging to that environment. The issue is you don't.

Not only that, but there's not enough wildlife to supply your food source. So you do not belong here. There's a glitch. It's no different than in the movie The Matrix. In addition to that, Dark City, if people know, right? Where they tell Neo, okay, it's not just that we're in a car. construct, it's the fact that there are glitches. And if you know what to look for, they're quite obvious. It's the black cat. It's not just one. It's multiple. If it was just one black cat, no big

deal. But it's when it's repetitive enough to where we look at this and say it's almost like this program is trying to update itself or it's trying to maintain itself. So to say like this cryptic case might not be a literal animal that exists in the woods, that's breeding and creating an environment and dying, it is some type of interplay with our consciousness, and some type of entity manifesting and existing, which is why a lot of these like hunting for Bigfoot shows, I'm like, I don't know if you're going to catch what you think you're going to catch, because we're looking at it biologically. Yeah, or you'll end up being caught yourself.

You know, it's like David Polite's was on Rogan a long time ago, and he was talking about instances of Bigfoot holding an orb in his hand. Now, getting into Orbology, that's no different than some of the seances that are record in the history where a ball of light will roll out from underneath the cupboard or a table and from that orb will be constructed matter like this and it'll build itself up from the ground and before you know it you have consciousness with constitution there's tangibility to whatever that intelligence and whatever that energy is it's not just energy it's not information it is it is manifesting itself out of an orb.

And then it's interacting with people. And some people have actually touched it. It doesn't feel like, you know, flesh and blood, flesh and bone. It's different. But it is matter nonetheless. And then out of nowhere, it will deconstruct itself back into the ball of light. And then the ball of light will disappear. So it's, and I know that there's some research being done right now by people who,

who are focusing solely on that data point, which I think is fascinating, because my work is kind of, I tell people I don't have PhD, I have ADHD, bro. Way different, you know. Have people ever looked at these reports and examined them under a microscope

to see what they are? Steve Mera has, and that's why I love the guy's work. He's one of my best friends of the world too, so that helps. But his research is fascinating. Now, what started happening in his work is, Barry Fitzgerald, will often do investigations together.

in England. And they were going into houses where, like, one gentleman had a figurine, and he was in an argument with his wife, and he's looking at this figurine on the table and it's moving. In a fit of rage, he takes the figurine, throws it out the front door, shatters. Here's the black cat, everybody, in the Matrix, and he goes back into the house. The figurines back on the table, as if it never left. And so that piqued an interest in Steve. Steve's like, well, what's, that's a glitch, right?

That should not be happening. What's going on here? And so together him and Steve were looking at that aspect while performing their research, doing their investigation, but knowing full well, if we ever have a case study like that, we need to pay close attention because here's something the phenomenon does not do. It does not waste energy. It will not. It's very strategic.

It will not waste its power. Whatever it does, it does for a reason. Again, that's why I have many. issues with the poltergeist hypothesis. It's not a poltergeist. It's doing something. We may not understand it, but it's doing something that serves a purpose for its existence. What do you mean? What is, do people claim a poltergeist do nothing? Yeah. What do you imagine that? So the idea, though, is it's the angry ghost. The poltergeist essentially is something that will just knock this water bottle over. Just to play a prank. There we go. Yeah, yeah. And that's, initially, that's what

the hitchhiker effect was, right? Oh, it's a noisy ghost. No, it's not. It's something else entirely. Again, it's almost like running a program where it does this enough. And then out of nowhere, the poltergeist activity stops. Now it's intention. It's really, it has a lot of agency at that point. It's opening doors, it's making eye contact with you. It's in bed. It's pushing you. It's touching you, all that. So there are steps to that manifestation. Now, to the to the port specifically. Yeah. Like you're saying that Mara has looked at these items that have manifested in people's homes. There's a claim that these things are, you know, creating. items in people's homes.

They are. That were not there that no one put there. So if we were to examine these things, would we find something strange about them? Yeah. So Steve had an instance where a coffee mug went missing. And the family had owned other coffee mugs that were purchased with that one. It was kind of like a Costco deal, you know, it's wholesale.

You got a big box. You got three or four coffee mugs made by the same manufacturer, made by the same process, the same properties. And the coffee mug went missing for a long time. And then out of nowhere, it just shows back up right where they left it. And it was like, where to go? Like what happened? And so what Steve did, again, he was curious about this, is he took the coffee mug that went missing and returned and took the other coffee mugs it was purchased with, sent it off to a laboratory and there was an isotopic difference between the coffee.

mug that disappeared and returned in the others. The others share the same isotopic ratio together. This one was completely different. And so there are two possibilities here, and we lean more one way than the other. One possibility is, yeah, the isotopic ratio, the difference was caused by the re-materialization of the coffee mug. Okay. The other possibility, and this is what we're leaning towards, is that that's not the same

coffee mug mark. What the phenomenon did is it dematerialized the original and replaced it with a simulant. Now, the problem with that is it opens up a whole can of worms of implications because the matter itself was replicated. You could touch it, right? You could drink out of it. It'll taste the same. It'll feel the same. It'll look the same. But its properties, the isotope ratio is different. It did not originate here. It originated wherever the phenomenon. nominon exists. And so that opened up the conversation of, again, why would this intelligence do that? Number one and number two, if that is going on, then we have to retroactively go back through cases and say, oh, dear God, how many times has that happened and we had no idea?

Now, was this family in this case dealing with other elements of haunting? Yeah, of course, yeah. So it was, it was not just like, oh, a mug went missing. There were other things around it. Correct. And it's not a one-up case. I know Grant Cameron has written a book about apports. I believe he has. I don't know if it's published or not yet. But the idea, though, and this is something that's called quantum anchoring, that's another interconnectivity between demonology and whatever this field is. We're researching, where they would actually remove the apport from the haunting. Just take it away. It's okay, we're going to go take it. put it in a storage space. And they would do that in about 20 to 48 hours, 24 to 48 hours,

the phenomenon would dissipate. The family would call Barry and Steve and say, congratulations, you've managed to do something. No other investigators have managed to do. What is it? What do you mean, Mr. Smith? You've managed to get rid of the phenomenon. It's not here anymore. There's no more activity. And that's when they kind of made eye contact and kind of was like, okay, sounds like we did something. what happened was, and this is the leading theory, and we'll get into demonology in a second, where when the phenomenon lacks a connection or it lacks the ability to manifest, remember what I told you, it'll knock something over, it'll build energy, and then it will incarnate and manifest. But if that's not possible, or if there's another way to do it, they'll just apport an object,

take one, a port at that in, and then now their, this is a theory, that their energy, their consciousness, their signal, their intention is now imprinted on that apport. And wherever that apport is, they will be there also. And so this theory is that when it is weakened, it's insufficient and deficient. It will replicate something attached itself to it to prolong its existence to keep and maintain control in that local environment. Now, William Tiller, there's a book out there for all the bibliophiles. it's called conscious acts of creation. William Tiller did something like that

where they stuck something in a Faraday cage and they created what's called an intention imprinted device or electronic device. So they literally created this electronic device and they projected their intentions into it. Can you pull up this study? This is fascinating. And while he's pulling it up,

they took that Faraday cage, they placed it in another environment, it began to affect the environment they placed it into. So it's not, okay, it's just a water bottle. It is just a water bottle, but it could be imprinted with their intention. Or like the apport. It just seems to be a coffee mug, exactly right.

And the only thing that we've measured or understood at least is that, yes, it was not here than it was. We don't know what they did with that. And so what it looks to be, again, is that the apport represents an intention imprinted device, that's designed to maintain control of that local environment. You remove it. You remove their attention.

Yeah, Tiller has, his study on this is so fascinating. Crease is going to grab all the specific details, but to my understanding, he's a researcher and not some, like, crank. He's like trying to understand, understand, like, is it possible, like, manifestation and intention and meditation can actually affect things. So he has, like, a group of high-level meditators that basically apply intention to this device trying to raise the pH of a water by some degree.

There were like one or two points of pH distribution and they place that electronic device into another pool of distilled water at a separate location and the pH went up which is... To the degree. To the degree.

And it's pretty remarkable. And I think he does another study with specifically like a Buddha statue or something to that effect, if I'm not mistaken, Chris just can find it. But, okay, so this says here, four experienced meditators reportedly entered a deep meditative state

and focused on the specific intention to raise or lower the pH of a water into a simple electronic black box. And the device was then shipped to another laboratory placed into a grounded Faraday cage along with purified water. Tiller claimed that the water's pH gradually shifted in the intended direction. Sometimes by approximately one full pH unit without any chemicals being added.

which is just really wild, right? Like for all the non-local consciousness people that are like, hey, your intentions can actually affect reality, this is one of those cases. Now, in fairness to the skeptics approach, like this has been attempted to be replicated by another university and they didn't get the same results.

Why is that happening? Is it possible that these things are, you know, difficult to exactly capture? Who knows? But in his case, if we take, you know, this is a Stanford material science professor, I think he's a, as legit. That's fairly legit as you can get.

And if he's able to find this result even once, to me, is remarkable. He also reported effects involving enzyme activity and fruit fly development. And for the interest of full disclosure, this is outside mainstream science. It hasn't been independently established through broad research, but he founded through these cases. It's, yes. Now, intention and consciousness, it's somewhat of a, it's a combination, but we're still determining what that can do, what, what that is, you know, like it gets back to some of the old USSR parapsychological experiments where

you guys probably heard me mention this too, where they were having this individual who had the ability to project consciousness where they placed a blank piece of paper in an envelope, taped the paper to his forehead and said, okay, here are the symbols we want you to materialize into this paper, onto the paper. And after a few experiments, he was able to do it. Then they removed the envelope, placed it about 20 to 25 feet away. And they noticed something that as he's projecting his consciousness and intention, there was a biofield, a translucent cloud that manifested in between them. And it was filled with, now, they didn't use orbs back then, right?

That was a term they were not familiar with. This was back in the 70s. This was ball lightning. And so something that materialized in that biofuel, that cloud was ball lightning, and it moved from the consciousness of that individual, from the intention. I love this case, into the air and slowly descended down upon the envelope. And energy and tension and consciousness was able to create an influence matter. So the point being, if humans are able to do this in even a few cases, is possible that some other type of, non-human intelligence perhaps could do a similar sort of feature on us. That's kind of the idea here,

right? It is. Yes. And that's the issue, even with Jim Schnabel, this gets back into some of the possession cases that belong to the hitchhiker effect, where Jim Schnabel wrote a book called remote viewers. And members of our federal government researchers that were working with them, were trying to, quote, unquote, project their consciousness into the environment of the others. And in doing so, they were projected into. And many of them, this is not Nathaniel Gillis's words, okay? They, this is, quote, they believed, quote, they were possessed by a hallucination inducing spirit. Because it was almost like a war of consciousness.

I'm going to project myself into a reality, and they said absolutely not. Matter of fact, when they try to do that, these researchers, these entities actually picked up on it instantly. You're trying to view me. I'm going to push you back in the darkness, and I'm going to view you. And that was a part and has been a part,

dare I say, of the hitchhaker effect. Now, back to the original question, is it possible to summon these things? Do Ouija boards and seances? Yes. As I was seeing in movies, is it possible they can actually? actually summon some type of non-human entity.

Yes. I am of the conviction now and I maintain my ability to change my mind, obviously, with new data, but I'm not convinced that we are summoning them. If in fact we possess consciousness that can be manipulated, that something can actually come crawling out of it, then it's possible that whatever these beings are are conjuring us in order for us to conjuring us. them if they lack our ability, they could actually convince us to perform rituals to conjure them in an effort for them to manifest in this dimension. The problem is by the time they get here, that door is fully open. We cannot shut it. So someone might have a strong conviction to say, I need to do some type of ritual. I want to do this. I have this feeling. I just really want to try the sigil

magic. I want to try the seance. Maybe it might just be fun to do a Ouija war with my friends. and you're suggesting that it's possible with this kind of intelligence is saying like, hey, open the door for us and then through these actions they do. It's the spider. Right. We talked about this remarkable,

what is it, the Iranian? The Iranian of spider-toed viper, yeah. Yeah, where you see the video of it and the tail of the snake looks like a little spider and so birds come by and they're like, oh, let me eat the spider, and then bang, the snake eats the bird. Yes. Now, with respect to conjuring, again,

I'm right back to CE5, because CE5 is seems to be at least to me the repackaging of ancient spirit contact. Explain C.E.5 for the guy. So C.E.5, um, the idea is that there are different protocols. Some of them are breathing protocols. Um, just strange stuff to me. But, uh, Stephen Greer came up with these different ways of contacting the phenomenon. And the idea, though, is that you can go out to an undisclosed location of your choosing, rather, you know, wherever you want. And you can look up into the sky.

You can go through Stephen Greer's protocols, pure intention and projection and thankfulness and, you know, humility, all of that. And the phenomenon will manifest to you. A lot of this, most of it's either Spirit Airlines or, you know, real manifestation. And what do people report seeing when they do these manifestations? Orbs, balls of light.

sometimes, and this is rare, actual, oh God, now we're getting into it. Solid appearing or solid looking craft that is often confused for nuts and bolts. It sounds maybe crazy as some of that hasn't done. They're like, you're telling me you can go out in the desert and like wish really hard to see a UFO and you'll see one. There we go, right?

Cool, yeah. Yes, actually, yes. And in antiquity, they were called space demons. Not, you know, that was their term. merely because they knew that certain entities kind of lorded over a geographical location. If you wanted to contact them, you don't go the opposite direction. You go where they are. So it's kind of a little bit the same.

I don't know. But getting back to CE5, I'm going to refer to some of my work in my cases than Steve Mares as well because we're colleagues. I had an individual when I lectured in England. I met her and she was a follower of Stephen Greer. and she was like a master at the protocols and she was getting away from the whole movement. And I said, what's going on? And she said, well, I had went in one night and did the CE5 protocols. And she's like, nothing happened.

And I said, well, that's unfortunate for you, you know, like that sucks. She's like, no, no, no, I went home. And for the first time of my life, I witnessed a full-bodied apparition manifest of my house. So there is a fallacy that's baked into this movement and that fallacy is that my intentions with the phenomenon will determine its intentions with me. What did this apparition look like? So I think it was a lady, a fool old lady.

So she goes out to the woods or some, says, let me do some breathing work, let me do some intentionality, let me do some manifestation, look up in the sky, nothing's there, this thing doesn't work, go home, and all of a sudden there's a ghost in my house. No different than Doris Smith or Jack Hernandez where they go in and they see what looks to be a dead person, a corpse, not just a ghost, but something that looks physical.

And we're going to get to that second because the same countermeasures being employed. It looks physical. And yeah, that's what she experienced. I had one lady that her and her husband went through a really traumatic experience because they were also in the CE5 movement. And at first blush, they were excited because they did have an FF. And then she said that one night they were abducted and that's kind of a great area. Quote, quote, unquote, abducted. Not that they don't occur.

It's just she wasn't really sure what happened. She just woke up with physical manifestations of scarifications on her body. Her husband had the same thing on his. And they were looking at each other and going, oh, my God, what actually happened last night? Do you remember any of that? And he goes, I remember something. He's like, you know, we were taken by beings that had like the skin of a dog. often. They were kind of bluish. And it was all vague for them, but they were brutally assaulted.

And in addition to that, she started developing a problem with the vision in her right eye to the extent that she had this symbol or something in the bottom of her vision. And it stayed with her for a long, long time. She's like, I think, and I would go to bed with it. I'd close my eyes. I'd see it. I'd wake up with it. And, you know, her husband's looking at her eye. She couldn't find anything. She's washing it and stuff, putting in her eye. Finally goes to the optometrist.

The individual's looking at her. Finally, he gives her a bill of clean health. And he's like, I don't know what's going on. I'm not saying you're crazy, obviously. But whatever you're seeing, it's not physical. It's nothing on your eye. But something was literally changing what she was seeing. And what we're realizing now in the data is that our intentions with us,

they do not determine its intentions with us. That is a fallacy. You go out there and you're like, oh, I want this cool experience. I want to have my mind blown. Right. And that doesn't mean the thing that shows up wants to give you a cool experience. There we go.

And what we're seeing now specifically with people that are praying to orbs is that somehow the miracle itself validates the message. It's not true. The message determines the truthfulness of the message. I don't care if it's filmed. I don't care if we have 500,000 people see the phenomenon. What is it saying? What is it wanting?

What about things like a Ouija board? People say, like, oh, this is a game that's packaged by Hasbro. This is like a kid's game. There's no way it does anything. It's a bunch of kids holding their hands on a divination device. And some prankster in the group is like making it say, you know, people's names and stuff. on the board. Well, it's an active invocation in a way. And the real issue with that is,

and now we're dealing with intention, unfortunately, where I could say, I'm looking for Uncle Ted, right? And then Ted Bundy shows up. It's not my Uncle Ted. It's a Ted. Maybe he's an uncle. There you go. Maybe an uncle, right? But what it certainly is not, it's not who I, and it's sometimes, again, getting back to the Tennyson case, um, that's in the James, Angel Likatsky's book where the entities, and we talked about this yesterday, it'll start playing the role of that individual. Oh, I am that person. Of course I am.

And then you have to question it. You have to push beyond the form to realize that, no, it's just something that's trying to mimic. Point being is that, yes, there are movements that are trying to install a new mystery school in a way to where they're creating their own initiates, their own method of contact, and they're convinced many are connected. that the miracle validates the message. It doesn't.

Do you have cases of people using Ouija boards that open portals? Yeah, yeah, my old high school teacher, funny enough, right? Absolutely, she didn't believe in any of the stuff, and they were playing, she was a kid at the time, they were playing with it on a sleepover, and they let go of it,

and it's spelling out words and talking about dying in death. And I won't say her name, because you probably watched this, but she always gave me the best call. So I had ADHD and I was like heck yeah, I love that. Wow. Yeah, because I went allowed to have sugar or anything. So anyways, long story short. Yeah, so I've heard of that my whole career and I'm not saying that it's going to happen every time, but here's the issue. It doesn't happen every time. It doesn't have to. It could just happen one time and that's

enough. And what do you mean it's enough? Like we were talking last night and you said, you know, it might not kill you. That's correct. But the hitchhiker effect can do, sometimes it's does even worse, where it's not just you. I know an individual who tripped over an entity during a case, an investigation in a prison, and in a four-year stent, I believe it was, her husband divorced her, lost her job, lost her brother, he passed away, her dog got hit by a car, her rabbit starved to death.

She filed for bankruptcy, lost everything, and the last time I talked to her, has been months and months ago, or at least I knew her, she got diagnosed with a terminal illness. Four years. Wow. That's a tough four years. Oh, my God.

Unbelievable. And she wasn't trying to conjure this thing. No. And here's the issue. And I'm going to get another case study that happened in the 11th century. But I think this is why disclosure is going to be so utterly difficult for the federal government. Because, again, yes, we can have instrumentation and show you what we have in the sky.

That doesn't mean anything. It's not like we could just go get handcuffed. cuffs and arrest them, lock them up in San Quentin. No, but here's why, because what they're not telling us is that, yeah, it's not in the sky, it's in the house. It's in our consciousness. It's in our, yeah. It's in here.

Now, what about people like Alastair Crowley or Jack Parsons? You're familiar with Crowley sort of interacting with this entity that he called Lamb. Yeah. Can you pull a picture of lamb? This is maybe one of the most shown images on this show. There we go, yeah. Crowley basically, while he's kind of working out his religious philosophy, the, you know, the, you know, the, you know, thalema and these kinds of things, he claims to have interacted with this entity. I think he uses the word demon, perhaps. You can, you can correct me with that. And this is what he describes it as and describes, like, conversations with this entity that tells him perhaps some, some teachings of the universe and kind of how things really work.

Yeah, I believe he was described as an Enochian entity, which is interesting because there's a lot of whistleblowers now in uphology that are tied to Enochian magic, which is another data point that really, like, wait a minute. There's like a magic school that was kind of developed by John D. Initiates. Yeah. Yeah. A mystery order that does exist. It's not a figure of our imagination. And a lot of data points kind of direct our attention to that.

I mean, it's not just Crowley that met an inocan entity that kind of initiated him. We've got people like Matthew Roberts who witnessed a craft. And I don't want a picture from this, but I'm going to kind of tie this together in a bow. If I can, where he witnesses a craft, he goes home and a voice begins to give him books on the occult. Incredible, right? Here's the books you need to read. Here are the authors you need to read. And then after that, he encounters a succubus.

Now, what's so interesting about this is when you hear him talk about it, he's almost realizing that uphology does not have a taxonomy for some of these beings. What do you call a female entity that assaults you in the night? Where is that? So you can see some of these people are like, oh, God, where are I flying that? It's called a succubis. You know, again, we documented that throughout history. The only difference, though, was not just a succubus,

but later on that he was believed or even told by the entity that you were initiated during that sexual encounter. But what bothers me about this is the day after he was initiated, he said, according to his own testimony, he's outside of his apartment. He's driving because he realizes something, right? The trauma was too much. And then after that, of course, we're initiated. So I do believe that the uphology in many ways is.

a representation of a mystery school that is initiating. It's very interesting that we see this over and over again. It's not just Jack. See, Jack Parsons, I know we're going to get into crawling Jack Parsons too, but real quick, Parsons was mostly a self-taught scientist. I'm not saying you didn't have training or he wasn't intelligent. He was, obviously. But a lot of his revelations he was getting from conjuring entities.

And I think that the data point that people miss and something else is that there are people within the government that know of it. They know it's valid and that they themselves are also promoting spirit contact and order to further the scientific method. It's like what Diana Posulka said when she was started to investigate. This is a religious scholar. She's like, you know, I'm being told that NASA is, they're performing rituals and that they're placing symbols in pictures of beings,

Titans, you know, Greek gods on the rockets. And then she's like, and I asked them, why are you doing this? She's like, I'm a religious scholar. I know what rituals are. She's like, why are you doing this? And they said, well, we're doing this to please our sponsors. People within NASA said that. Now, if you take that, you also go into what else she said,

and this blows my mind too, because some people get lost. and the sauce on this. And it's like, well, they're like, they don't believe it or they don't want to. It's like, well, if you take her at her word, we have an issue here because she said it was even to the point where like Barack Obama, the leader of the free world was told to stand in a corner in a circle and look that direction why we will launch the rocket. What are we doing? Wait, what is that?

Yeah, what is that? Placing the leader of the free world in a circle and telling him to look in a certain direction in order to successfully launch a rock into space, that means that there is another hierarchy present. That's a real case? It's a real case. What you said? There's another hierarchy present here that transcends that of the known world.

Forget geopolitics. There's something else out there that we're answering to and that we are appealing to in order to further our scientific method. Now, I will suggest this, that you can have 10, 15 different practitioners. It doesn't matter what they're practicing. Cidual magic, chaos, match, and no care. And some of them will not have success. Even some of the initiates, they have their own success ratio and all of that.

Point being is that if you're going to have someone who is sigilizing a rocket or creating the glyphs or telling you which titans or which Greek gods to put on the rocket, that would mean that you've actually tested them as a practitioner. This case with Obama, where does that come from? Dianapasoka. She mentions that I believe it was with Rogan. Wow. That's fascinating.

I didn't, yeah, blew my mind, but it's alarming because it just, it calls into question a lot of what we think we know about how all of this works. Right. People look at Jack Parsons, like, ah, he was like a one-off crazy guy. And he was just interested in the occult. And it had nothing to do with his scientific exploits, which by all accounts, he was a brilliant scientist. Of course.

But this claim is to say that, well, he's doing these things so that he can get revelations about how these things actually work. Absolutely. Similar to the Watchers coming down and how Enoch talks about, you know, these, the book of Enoch talks about these beings that come down that are supposed to observe humanity. And instead, they teach humanity things. They teach humanity about, you know, metal urge. Metalurgy and violence and war.

Let me throw a wrench in this. And this is another moment where I'm going to get probably bashed by both sides of the field. The secularists and the sacred will probably have an issue with what I'm going to say here. If in fact there is technology given to us by quote unquote fallen angels right now, would we know it? Would we know it? And how much of it, theoretically, is already in our hands. When we look at what the fallen angels gave the women in Genesis 6, the technology, it's not just that, it's warfare. It's makeup. And what I'm afraid of, especially within Christendom, because I'm very familiar with that kind of arena. My dad's a pastor and I have, my family's full of ministers. Are we as a species prepared to take a lot of what we've come to know and love and say, okay, potentially if this is from a fallen angel, we can't use it.

Right? You know, I'm going, I can't use this. Now, I had a conversation a while ago with an individual who, encountered a group of initiates within uphology who kind of they went around parading as researchers but they were actually initiates and once this person again she was a materialist i'm a purely a materialist i don't believe in any of the stuff i don't believe in religion um and then once this person realized what was going on that these people were not just saying it's extraterrestrial but they were actually building altars to them in their homes, trying to to conjure and invoke them.

That's when everything changed. But what this appears to be more than anything is spirit contact. And that's why, again, that it would follow that what you're contacting, you have no control over. You cannot determine their intentions. and by the time they show up, it often is the case that you do not have the ability to push the beasts back into the darkness. You've unleashed them.

And it's happened in the skull experiment. And there's some data, I'm curious about this, that had happened at CERN, where you just open something up and you can't shut the door. But they're already here. What do you do with it? It's no different than NIDS when they witnessed through one of their cameras.

witnessed this this orb that turned in kind of elongated itself and a creature starts crawling out of it and then the orb and the tunnel collapses where are you going to where you're going to take that being what are you going to do with that feels like stranger with that exactly right what are you going to do they have that footage i i don't know if they i don't know if they have it or if they just witnessed it yeah i see they i would think they they do but i don't think they'll show us but yeah yeah Yeah, the Enoch thing is weird because it's like, I can get on board where it's like, okay, these watchers come down, they teach metallurgy. Yeah.

And they create weapons. I'm like, ah, weapons aren't great, you know? Like, sure, defense is nice. But then they're like, oh, they teach violence and war. I'm like, ah, that's not good. But in makeup, I'm always just like, eh. Yeah, I'm not, I don't know if makeup. I don't know.

I have a hard time being like how makeup is evil. But I don't know. I know. I know some people do think that. Okay, okay, this one, Diana Pasulka. Thank you, brother. Goes to Sean Ryan and claim that Barack and Michelle Obama were a knowingly position as part of what she interpreted as a ritual surrounding a space launch. Certain launches involve Latin phrase and images of Roman gods on rockets or mission patches.

Presidents were allegedly positioned at a precise location directed to face a direction during an astronomical event. Obama supposedly did not know that it had ritual significance. Pesuco called it obviously some type of ritual. I don't know what, I don't know why they're doing it. A NASA affiliated source that she called Tyler allegedly. answered our sponsors. You know, strange. This is also very interesting to me because I try to pay attention to everything I can in the field.

And when she was on with Joe Rogan, it was an interesting conversation. But when asked like what are these things or what do they kind of appear to be, are there any indications of ontology, sources, origin, she basically comes out and says, I'm not saying this as a representative of my university. I want to say that first and foremost, right? And then she gets into, more or less, and I know she didn't explicitly say this, but it was almost like she was saying a lot of these cases

mirror that within demonology. The problem is that the D word is, it's either misunderstood grossly or so hard fault because it has a lot of baggage to it, people don't want to even intellectually entertain these case studies. But getting back to the apport, I'll tie the apport and we'll get back into this. Even the apports, they are, themselves are also connective tissue between hauntings and demonology. These are like items that could be cursed as well. Absolutely. Or intention imprinted

and printed objects. Just like the Tiller experiment. Absolutely. And you have, look at Gabriel Pallimorth, Adam Bly, Malachi Martin, some of your most prolific and experienced exorcists will talk about cases of their worst demoniacs, where in the event of the exorcism, as they're trying to get rid of the entity, the entity will literally, like literally, it's crazy, regurgitate a port out of the cavity of the possessed. Now, there's two different data points here. Number one, that individual never ingested them. Sure.

Right? Their nails, their coins, right? They never ingested them. So it came from whatever this intelligence is. And that's the first data point. The second data point's incredible, too, is just as there are no points of manifestation in homes, it comes through a wall, but there's no disturbance. on the wall. The paint's not disturbed. The wood's not broken. The scaffolding's fine, right? All that.

And there's no disturbats. Just like that occurs in these reports. You also have that demonstrated in the demoniac where they didn't come through them. They never ingested it. They didn't puncture them. It just literally materialized in their body. And now they're spitting it out. Why? Because when this phenomenon, whatever this is, wants to prolong its existence, it will replicate a simulant. It looks to be a part of our reality. It looks to be a part of a construct, but it is not. It came from them, from their dimension. And what that means, though, for us as research and experiencers, is that we have actually, possibly, may have actually laid eye contact and eyes on these mimics and simulants. Without knowing it. Without knowing. That's what.

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Blu-chew. Let's get back to the show. Hey, guys, we're going to take a break really quick because I want to tell you about one of the sponsors of this show. And that's perplexity. Every AI expert seems to recommend a different AI tool. And every time I start a project, I'm asking myself, I'm like, do I use this one for this or should I use another? Like one is better at research, a different, you know, LLM or another AI is better at like writing, another one's better at coding or like finding flights. And then I need something that can turn all those answers into like actual information that I can really digest.

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but perplexity computer is completing full projects. Now, let's get back to the show. I wonder if there's a way to do it in a closed experiment, right? Like, I know people have attempted this in different ways, But do you feel like there's a way to definitively prove it? And, you know, if we were to say like we get the top researchers from Stanford or some other type of research college and they sit down in a room and they do a seance and they say, do anything extraordinary, levitate any item, do any type of proof that there's some type of

intelligence here that exists kind of beyond our understanding of physical reality, would it be able to do it? and if it doesn't do it, why not? That is an issue in the phenomenology. So we see what it likes and what it doesn't like, whatever this is. And we see it often mostly in seances at the skull experiment. There was a moment where, let me kind of back this up. They were constructing a room. A room to them was not four walls and a ceiling.

it was based on the kind of people they had in the seance, their backgrounds, their beliefs. Are you a skeptic, right? Are you agnostic to this phenomenon? Or are you an experiencer? Or are you a believer and a scientist? And what ended up happening is they would have, let's say, I don't know how many people they had,

but let's say I'm just going to say six. And so one of the six was not liked by the phenomenon. And so one of the mediums would say, okay, I'm being told to get rid of him. And then they would replace him. And then like five or six times that happens. And finally they had arranged, quote unquote, a room. And then they would go through their seance and invocation. And that's when the phenomenon would manifest.

So the problem with this, though, is it does not like to be recorded. It does not like to be recorded. replicated. We will witness it here and then come back and it's not there. Or you'll have a scientist who is trying to perform an experiment to replicate what he witnessed and it doesn't happen. So it does not play by our own rules. But what that does for us, especially with the scalp deck is, well, according to the scientific method, you have to replicate it. It has to be testable. And if I can't test it and replicate it, it simply doesn't exist. That's not how this phenomenon behaves. It's evasive. It evades by evolving. It evolves according to our understanding of it. As soon as we get a grasp on it, it will update. It'll mutate. It'll evolve.

And like I said, it will evade by evolving. And that's why it's so profound to me to hear people like Robert Bigelow come forward. We've heard from Nids. We've heard from Colm Keller. We've heard from George Knapp. we haven't truly heard an in-depth explanation of Robert Bigelow. Like, what have you experienced? What do you think is going on?

And lo and behold, he is articulated and also demonstrated that the phenomenon has countermeasures to technology. To technology. It's already enough, my friend, that when we lay eyes on it, we can't really trust what we're seeing. Right? Okay. It's Pat and her sister Rose. Well, I see, I see aliens. Yeah, what kind of aliens did you see?

They're wearing hats or Emily Trim. She was one of the experiencers that witnessed the, oh, God. She was one of the witnesses to the aerial school signing where the craft landed. And at first, one of the reports was they saw an alien gray with a black wig on. That's interesting, right? It's like, okay. And another witness said that there was one being standing there. staring at them while there was another one kind of circling the object, the craft.

And then they realized that that circling of the entity was actually a loop that wasn't real, was real to the witness. It's like an apparition. It looks real. It's not. What was real was the entity staring directly at them. And so as in one of the conferences that Emily Trim went to and they kind of cornered her and peppered her with questions.

And they asked her, they said, okay, like, what? did they look like to you, which is a profound question in our context, right? What did you collapse them into? And she said, well, the one I saw looked like a gray, and you could see people like, yes, check that box. I told you it's gray's. Yes, we're on it. We're the best. And then she said, and then it would turn into the face of a lion. And then it's, oh, God, what do we do with that? Which is, because if you're, okay, here's what we know, for at least to my knowledge of my conviction, is that wasn't a four-foot bipedal lion.

And if you're going to lie to me with the appearance of a four-feet bipedal lion, what makes me think you're not lying to me about the alien gray? Right. Yeah. What about sigil magic? Oh, God. So, yeah, another issue here,

and this gets back to intention. I did a lecture on sketching skin anomalies after hauntings and abductions. And an individual in the South emailed me. We hopped on a phone call. And he just poured his heart out to me. He goes, Nathaniel, he goes, you're the only person I've heard talk about this. But Hopkins touch on it a little bit, you know, just different symbols or or scoop marks

on the skin. He goes, he goes, my father was a famous remote viewer, not world famous, but he's like locally he was it and um he wasn't trained but he had an innate ability to lay down on his back to leave his body and he said he would go into this liminal state and he would meet his guides and he'd been doing this for years and he had actually become um proficient at it and independent, financially independent because of it. So he would go out of body, he would meet these beings and they would say, there's, you know, there's, I don't know, John Smith, he's a politician, he's running for mayor or for governor in your city or whatever, your state. He needs to poll

in this demography, right? You need to poll over there. And that kind of thing, or there's a local baseball player. He's about to sign up and you need to tell him to keep, you know, keep negotiating his contract. Anyways, he became famous locally for doing that, and he had a lot of success. But my dad would always describe his encounter. He would show up out of body in a metallic room, which that's weird. And he would be flanked on the right and left by beings that appear to be his guides. And he's like, my dad would have success. I mean, it was nothing, you know. I'd be playing video games. He'd come downstairs. Oh, that was a wild session. Here's what I got. He'd write in diaries. I have some of my office where pictures of it and stuff where he would just talk

about the revelations he would get from these beings. It had everything to do with religion. Jesus, the end times, all of that. And one day, he said, I was playing video games. The son was. And he said, man, he goes, next thing I know, my dad is stumbling down the stairs. He's, he's white as a ghost. He's crying. And he said, that's when I realized something really bad. It's wrong. He said, because my dad's a veteran. He's the toughest man I've ever known in my life. He's never cried at funerals. This is not the kind of guy.

And he's like, but he's weeping uncontrollably. He's like, when I'm fine, I'm trying to get him to talk to me. And he's trying to say what happened to him. Then he has a heart attack. Yeah. And he's like, we got the EMS there. And they're cutting his shirt open. And he says, as we're looking at his chest,

from underneath the skin, there were, symbols in letters that began to move from underneath the surface subdermally to the surface of the skin. What kind of symbols? One was the Star of David. One was the cross. And it happened, yeah. One of them looks like a, not a, like a seal or the name of an entity.

And I'm still trying to interpret it. The problem with it is that the. resolution of the pictures that I've been sent. It's hard, when I put it through different programs, like one thing will say this and the thing I'll say that. So I'm trying to find someone an academic that will help me interpret them. But it wasn't the first time that happened, though. That's what blew my mind.

And so these symbols are appearing where exactly? Underneath the skin to the surface. Now, while he's alive? While he's alive. And what's so fascinating about this is that when they manifested fully on him, they just look like burns. So initially they're sub-dermal and then they become burns. Now, there are multiple photographs that he has of these. And some of them, like the ones that I have are the star of David.

You have the cross. So then you have some kind of name. Now, one of them is an Egyptian hieroglyphic. That's one he has over time. like this. Were they permanent? No. They went away.

They went away. Now, the really wild thing, though, is this, because I said, okay, well, what happened? He's like, well, he goes, we finally got my dad medicated at the hospital, and he came through, thank God. And he's like, finally, I'm like, dad, what happened? And his dad was like, I have no idea. He said, I went through my session. Everything was okay.

He's like, I'm in that metallic room. of being flank left and right by these beings. He said they were my guides. And he said, but when we started to converse, I just felt weird. He's like, there was something not right. And he's like, that's when I realized that these are not my guides at all. And he said they shifted. Now, I don't believe they shape shifted, right?

They're not the Hulk. It's not Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, right? You're dealing with something that had, again, weaponized this man's perception of them. Where I'm, we got to get into that too. It's not just the observer effect. These beings have the ability to collapse that, destroy it at will. I'll allow you to collapse me into that. But at my choosing, I'll step out of that.

And that is what I call the observed effect, not the observer, to where they had that ability. And that's what they did. He was, of course, collapsing them into an interface. And they said, yeah, were your guide. and then they stepped out of it and paused the observer effect in a way. Now, is he claiming to see these entities like in his mind while he's meditating

or is he seeing them in the room with him? He's seeing them out of body. Wow. And, okay, there are two data points that I want to highlight here. Number one, I asked the son, I said, okay, because his father was dead at that point. I said, when your father stopped remote viewing, he wrote a bunch of notes,

what's in his diary and everything. I said, what did he conclude these beings were? Like, what did he believe they were? And he said, he believes, I believe that they were practitioners of a mystery school. The word he used, sorcerers. Now, I know the baggage that's accompanying that word. It's not my word. That's what he believed they were.

A species of such. What's interesting, though, and this is the other data point I want to understand. score is that there is constitution, a consciousness and tangibility to it. We have abductees who are being pulled out of their bodies and whatever is done to the out-of-bodiedness, the astral, whatever you want to call it, whatever is done to their consciousness is manifesting in and through the skin. Betty Luca, case in point, she was abducted out of body, her husband Bob. For those who want a reference, it's called the Andreasen Affair, and Raymond Fowler was the researcher

that worked with her and her family. Betty Luca was pulled out of her body by virtue of by location. The phenomenon would, boom. Now she's being seen in two places at once. And a lot of these people become self-seeing, right, where they look back down at themselves and they're like, oh, my God, I'm out of my body. What I mean, though, is whatever that is that's out of body, it's perceiving, it's communicating, and in some ways it still maintains the properties of physicality, even though it's not. It's a very strange liminal state. The point, though, is that many of these people, like when they get back into their body, they're demonstrating the same scoop marks that are being found on bodily abductions. So the question is, Is there physical evidence of abductions?

Absolutely. But that doesn't mean the abduction itself. It's physical. Spiritual first, skin, second. And this gets back into another one, and I'm not people going to say Nathaniel, super religious, whatever. Look, okay, we've got to do the research, and we've got to be interested in all of it and curious and all this.

So my point, though, is here. If you go back to the book of Ezekiel chapter 13, Yahweh is warring against a group, a species of occultists or practitioners or necromancers. that was their primary form of magic. And he says, he goes, basically says, I have a bone to pick with you, those who, when you see, those who hunt the souls of men to make them fly. Hunt the souls of men to make them fly. And this gets back to Esther Amori's work, T. Whitten Davies and other scholars that I have much respect for.

But the idea, though, is that these beings were pulling people out of their own bodies and that it was a virtue of necromancy, so much so that by virtue of pulling them out of their own bodies, it was somehow supplying them with power to prolong their existence. Now, what's interesting, though, too, is that when these people got back into their bodies, they demonstrated skin anomalies. Now, in antiquity, it was called leprosy, but it's not Hanson's disease that we have in a medulla, This was a spiritual condition manifesting through skin. Which is why they were so ostracized?

Absolutely. Many of them, yeah. So that's why they would have to go to the priest and the priests would say, okay, are you clean or unclean? Why? The first question, oh, my God, getting my ADHD is kicking in. Plus Red Bull here, so God help us, fellas. Perfect. This is getting back to the contact contagion.

That's exactly what they were demonstrating. Exactly. Where they would say, okay, the priest would say, okay, the priest would say essentially, okay, have you been in contact? And he had an exact group in his mind. Have you been in contact with false prophets? Why? Because there's a species out there. Okay. Ezekiel 1320 where God speaks against false prophetesses who practices who practicing divination. So the prophet Ezekiel is told to speak against the daughters of thy people, false prophetesses who claim to give divine messages from money bread and handfuls of barley.

These women sown magic mushrooms or magic magic cushions for armholes and placed veils or headbands on people. There's a book called Disembodied Souls. If you can look that up for me, brother. Now that's okay with AI, but there's a book called Disembodied Souls that really nails this point down with accuracy. And whatever these beings were, they would mix the out-of-body experience with false prophecy. there we go by Richard Steiner yes now this is a fascinating primary source for those who are interested and they get into the nefash the ruach all that so Steiner challenges the longstanding claim by biblical scholars that ancient israelites could not conceive of a soul in the vernacular a nefesh

existing independently of the physical body so i guess there was a claim that the ancient to ancient Judaism, didn't see the soul could exist outside the body. But they very much did, yeah. And that's what that whole book is about. They get into what's called the Catamua inscription, and they reference it in the book, as in Curley Expedition, where they found Catamua. He was a Turkish official who, oh, God, this is another direction that we're going to have to go to, where he was talking about how that his disembodied consciousness would be merging with metal.

Merging with Melan. Yes. In other words, basically he tells his family, he says that my soul will be in the steely. In other words, create a memorial for me, create an image of some sort. I will put my soul into it in addition to that I want you to give me offerings, build me an altar, all of that, which makes me wonder who and what it is that Tim Taylor is building an altar to out in the district. I've not familiar with that. Yeah, yeah. Who's Tim Taylor?

Tim Taylor, quote unquote, Tyler Darden in Diana Posulka's intellectual pursuits was an individual that works the federal government that is supposedly in contact with the others. And he was known to build an altar to whatever he is in contact with. So Taylor's a former NASA controller and biotech entrepreneur. This is who she was referencing in that interview with... in that an interview with Sean Ryan. Absolutely. And allegedly, Tim Taylor is a real-world aerospace and biotech figure.

He worked extensively with NASA and later co-founded the surgical device company. In American Cosmic, Pesolka introduced him under the pseudonym Tyler to protect his identity while describing his role as a high-level technologist and multi-patent holder who pivoted from skepticism to an act of belief in anomalous phenomenon after witnessing it firsthand. Look at the hierarchy of beings here. Watch this. This blows my mind. look at look what the the assertion is a neoplatonic ranking system placing god at the top

followed by angels or non-human intelligence in h i and then select factions within the intel what's that that's uh everyone's equal but some of us are more equal so it says here the possook could document entirely there's cosmological worldview that you have god and then under god there's angels and non-human intelligences okay i'm i'm looking at those within the aren't those Humans? And then a couple humans within the intelligence community and then ordinary humans. Ordinary humans. So either.

You know what I'm going with us. Either there are select human beings within the intelligence community that are more important than the rest of us, which is plausible. Plausible. It's a little annoying. That's just a regular human. I'm like, oh, why are they more important than me? Or is it possible there are some select factions within the intelligence community that are non-human? There we go, my friend.

I see. That is not a political hierarchy of beings. That's an ontological hierarchy of beings. Now we're getting into it. Hell yeah. Hell yeah, big dogs. Let's go. Now we're getting into it.

That's an ontological hierarchy. And the implication, dare I say, is that we're ordinary. Yeah, then there's NHI or a hybrid mixture, just maybe theorizing it. within the intelligence community. And then there are angels of non-human intelligence, okay, but where do they exist? Again, now we're dealing

literally with ontology in origin. Now, I've never heard this guy, Tim Taylor. Yeah. Has he confirmed that he is the person that Pasolka is talking about? I believe so.

The way she frames it is, yeah, I believe he has already confirmed. I don't know if he confirmed it. She did. Oh, she wrote in her book. So she wrote him under a pseudonym and then came out, yeah, it's Tim Taylor. Yeah, and he never refuted it.

And if she said that, it's because she was allowed to, basically, allowed to tell people, okay, yeah, it's Tim Taylor. Interesting. So from Gemini here, which again is not always perfect, Tim Taylor has, he never said it. Has never publicly confirmed he's the person. While he has chosen not to directly confirm his identity to the media of the public, his connection to the Tyler D persona is universally accepted due to verifiable facts

and public actions by others in his circle. Interesting. So Bledsoe. a central figure and his research refused to use a pseudonym in his own public media appearances and in his book UFO of God, Bloodsoe openly uses Tim Taylor's real name when recounting the exact same events in Vatican trips described American cosmic. So my estimation is that... You have a picture of him?

I'll let him see him. That before, right, he's... She didn't let, you know, his name out and then somebody else when it was further down the road was allowed to use it. So what is he building? I have no idea when he's building. You mentioned there was like an altar or something? Oh, yeah, yeah.

Okay, with that, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so she mentions him building an altar to these beings, whatever they are. Now, I don't know if that is to... Where is that? Where can we find that? I don't know. It was an interview that she did. She's done many of them throughout the years.

But the issue is that I don't know if he's building them to angels or something that appears to be an angel or sounds like an angel. If you're building it out in the desert, that is curious too. But all of this, especially with her hierarchy of beings, at least to me, it sounds like that if we really understood disclosure,

if we were given the truth, it's possible at least, probable that we are being manipulated and led by these beings. Is this the guy? Yeah. Interesting. Now, again, without me really, knowing anything about him. It says here he's got a dual career in space and medicine over

40 years, working in space shuttles, a bunch of different defense missions. He flew a biomedical experiment on space shuttle Columbia in 91. I mean, a pretty high achieving. Yeah. He got 40 patents. He seems like a pretty legit guy based on this, this bio. Yeah. So again, I don't know who this guy is. I'm assuming this is the same person. It is the same person. So when you look at Chris Bledzo, So Tim Taylor allegedly told Chris Bledsoe, so this is literally, Blentzellis said that, if you've ever watched the Adjustment Bureau,

the movie, there's an individual in the movie. It's a character, his name's the hammer. He's a big, big dog. Like, he's a really powerful person in the Adjustment Bureau. And when Chris asked Tim Taylor, who you work for and everything, and Taylor said, I work for the hammer.

That's him. Has he ever done any pods? Has you ever talked to him? Tim Taylor. No. Oh, God, no. No. What's the other?

Super elusive. Super elusive. But it's just strange to me that you have another rocket guy, you know, who's in contact with others. According to Diana Posulka. Yeah. And Chris Bledso. And, yeah, and a couple other scientists that work for him or with him, rather.

I don't know. I'm just theorizing for now, obviously. But a lot of this doesn't make sense and a lot of it does. And that which does make sense is alarming because if in fact you have skin anomalies that occurred because people were taken out of their bodies, then we would have to retroactively go back to a lot of cases that we believed were just physical. They took me physically and say, okay, is it possible that you were taken out of your own body? And here's what's interesting enough too.

It's like the experiments they're running on consciousness, not just on bodies, on consciousness. It's troubling. But, yeah, it's where my... Fascinating. I've never heard it some Taylor. That's such an interesting little threat. Yeah, yeah.

We should hit him up. Just be like, dude. Hey, Timmy, what's coming? Let's have a chat, dude. Let's hang out. Maybe he's just a regular nerdy scientist that's like, dude, there's a complete misunderstanding. There's another guy.

Same name. This whole thing got taken out. Big into hardware. Hardware, right? He's not even, this is the wrong Tim Taylor. Yeah. Wait a minute. What's going on here? Yeah, he's his own TV shows. It's never me. I'm from home improvement. I don't even know what's going on. That is wild. Yeah. Sometimes I'm in light at lows, you know, that's a whole different. Hey, guys, we're going to take a break really quick because I want to tell you about energy. I'm someone who loves coffee, but there's a point where I'm on like my fourth or my fifth or my 10th cup and it stops helping. Instead of feeling more focused, I'm jittery and distracted and like exhausted, but also unable to relax. It's kind of funny because I'll go to the gym, I try to watch what I eat, I try to get eight hours

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and cristo sent you from the campsite let's get back to the show that is fascinating yeah wow i'm so curious to know like if there's anything we can read about like what he's building allegedly or if like he has any type of like public facing kind of thing of like yeah this is what i'm getting into you know it would be interesting to know it's just so tight-lipped and i think the government obviously knows way more than we do that it goes without saying so it's kind of like do you think it's compartmentalized? Very compartmentalized. Do you think the missing scientists are connected to it?

Yeah. In what way? Some, some of them. Now, I had a conversation with a guy who had, he's another researcher of mine and we were just bouncing ideas around because there are some people that are briefed into disclosure, you know, they're in a skiff and some of them go missing at their own hand, right? And not all of them, but some. And then others go missing at someone else's hand.

Or, you know, they're thrown over a balcony or they're found, unfortunately, dead. And I asked this individual, and he's an academic, he's much more in tune with the academic part of the research than I am. I said, well, what do you think is going on? I said, it's like the phenomenon's taking them out, maybe, you know, because when this intelligence wants to make a, adjustments, it will. It'll send turbo cancer or you'll get cut off in traffic. People like Dr. Carla Turner, Barbara Bartholic, where you cross a boundary in your research or you're working with an experience or the intelligence doesn't want you to, it will attack you. Right. It'll be Malachi Martin. Remember we talked about that last night? Yeah. It's the little girl. You think you can help

or you won't. Well, he's in a study standing on a little ladder, reaching for a book, a shadow figure comes by, kicks the stool out from underneath them. And he hits his temple on the corner of a table. He's gone. Things like that happen when you trip over and trigger a response from the phenomenon. So I said, knowing that, is it possible that some of these people are, they just can't take it? He goes, that is the case for some. He goes, but think about it, those who can't take it, right?

In some cases, it is heavy. I mean, you're talking about people that cry themselves to sleep. It's just like, okay, I don't want to know this. This is not the one. One individual said this is not the world I brought my daughter in. And then others, it's like if they can take it, right, mentally. And they're like, okay, like, I know this. What can I do to help?

Sometimes the phenomenon will affect them as well. And so you have kind of this cluster of cases where people just go missing. It's unfortunate. I'll tell you something, though. it's not new and that's that's sad you know like in the 70s there were at least a dozen scientists that just went missing and many of them were studying um not just physics but space and a rocketry um one of them was professor oh god forget his name now anyways his he was professor he's a professor and Renee Hardy is his name.

And this is, by the way, this is a book, another book you guys might want to buy. It's called Dark Gods or The Dark Gods. It's fascinating. But in that book, they talk about Professor René Hardy. He had multiple patents and science. And he was very famous in his field. He dies.

And his family, obviously, they're tore up and just grieving. They go to the funeral. And right before the piano starts, the back doors open and like five or six men in suits walk in and the family you know as they do they're hugging people and saying hi and you know uncle ted looks good for his age that kind of thing yeah and they're shaking hands with everybody and then at the end of the funeral they go home for dinner and they're talking and one of them strikes up conversation do you guys remember those gentlemen that came in and said they knew they knew dad and yeah i remember that okay but we've never met

him and dad never talked about them. I know that was really strange. I tell you what, I know I took a photograph of them. I know it. I remember doing it. Let's go look at them. And they never showed up on camera. Hmm. That's Renee Hardy. Professor Renee Hardy. Now, what this speaks to is a construct that whatever some of these entities are, they operate outside of it and they enter it at will. somewhat like an artificial habitat to where when we do observe them, they have the ability to weaponize our perception. They're only here for a fleeting moment. They're going to adjust things here, hence the Adjustment Bureau.

And then at the time of their choosing, they pop out. And so this would also explain the Pulsor Tim Taylor's hierarchy of beings. Again, that's an ontological list. It's not a geopolitical list. It's not a political list. It's literally has to do with existence, origin, creation. Who created me? Why am I here?

How did I originate? And then normal human beings. So in other words, what are they? But that control mechanism has been employed by this intelligence for millennia. I'm so curious if these scientists, if some of them know, if they're familiar, do you think the president knows? No. Now, we'll tell you, Bigelow said that he tried to brief Donald Trump on the presence of the extraterrestrial war, whatever he believes they are. And that was hilarious to me.

Because I'm not going to get political here, but you see Robert Bigelow tried to. He was like, yeah, he goes, I said all these papers on the desk. And I was talking to the president about, you know, he, listen, we need to do this. We do that. And Nap was like, do you think he listened to you? and Bicklow kind of zoned out for a second. It was like, oh, I don't know. I don't know.

And then he goes, well, did he ever ask any questions? Yeah, but it wasn't about what I came to talk about. Yeah. Can you imagine that? Like, you finally get a moment. He's like, yeah, but anyways, how about the embarrass, huh? I can totally imagine it. I mean, he doesn't strike me as a type that's like super stoked on it.

Even like when he made his post about, you know, UAP files driving, he was like, have fun. Have fun, boys. And it's like, oh, yeah, you've, you've, you've, you've, you've, you don't. You don't believe any of this. At least you haven't been told anything that puts you in a position where you really are locked in. And his family disputed this, by the way.

It's sad. So, yeah, it says here, René Hardy, French engineer, doctor of science, established the UFO research organization, Geppa, and associated with the French Institute Medesophysique International.

Dude, you did way better with that than I would have. Come on, eh? Institut. Yeah, you got it. There you go. He's found dead in Toulon on June 12th.

He had a gun shot wound with a gun in his hand. Authorities classified his death as self-harm. Some writers claimed he was scheduled to reveal important discovery about the phenomena two days later. And his family disputes it, huh? A particularly fantastic version says, six undenified men went to the funeral but did not appear in photographs. So in this book, Dark Gods, they reported it, repeated it, claiming that Hardy held more than 250

patents. That is fascinating. By the way, Dark Gods are the fact. fascinating book and it's so expensive. Really? Oh yeah. What? I don't know, man.

Most of the time all these, the good books are. Yeah, that's interesting. Oh, yeah, we can see it here. And you can even see some of the, uh, the, the excerpts from the book. Yeah. I forget how much that was. Um, but yeah, man. So the problem though is, again, it's like, what do they know?

Do they want to know this? Probably not. But what's actually going on. I'm also particular interested in Matthew Brown. account when he said we and I'm paraphrasing so Matthew watches this if I get it wrong forgive me but he's like you know we live in a construct this is that reality itself is classified that we are not alone you know we're not alone even on us on planet so what's going on there you know it's fascinating to me because when you

look at Eric Davis and I'm still trying to understand what's going on here because Eric Davis is an interesting character in my view he'll actually at contact in the desert and he mentions Jen. And it's fascinating to me because he highlights a motif that I've also referred to in my own work just dealing with cases, looking at behavioral patterns. It's like that one instance where the entity, when it was viewed for the peripheral, was a shadow figure. And then once the person locked eyes on it, it maintained its form, it solidified it. When it moved out of her vision, it was no longer, you know, her husband.

And I had no idea that Eric Davis was also kind of working on that nuance. And then at Contact in the Desert, he comes out and talks about, yes. And he uses the word Jim. Like the Muslim version of a demon. For sure, yeah. And he says that when a gin is embodied, that it will maintain its form by locking on the eyes or the observation of a person. like it's what person's observing it and you are providing the form it takes the problem i have with is is that knowing the research i've been doing and doing with others in the field it's

it's cursory knowledge to know that when you say that gin are separate from the demon and the demon is separate from the shedeme and jewish folklore or even uh mythologna or even uh mythologian mythology, that they're all separate. That would mean that they all exist independent from each other. The problem is, is when all of these mythologies and demonologies were being formed, they were kind of being cross-pollinated. And they all have, it's fascinating. So, for instance, in Jewish demonology, you have the Shadim. Okay, that's your evil spirit. The problem, though, is that originated. It's a borrowed loan word from the Acadian, Sadu. And so your demonology itself, your terms, your approach to it is originating in another tradition that you're reincorporating

into your own theology and your own mythology and then claiming it, this is mine. I've always said this. I've always had this. It's not true. And that's why when you go back into the Levant, in the Petrie Dutch of history, you see that all of these ideas were kind of bleeding into each other. And if, in fact, Eric Davis is saying that, well, you have the gin here and you have the incubus here and you have the demon here and you have the Shadim here, and all of those exist. But all of those exist because they're being propped up by their own ontology, their origin story. This is how they were created. right and all of those traditions have issues with each other. Does it make sense?

Whereas you're saying there's a more plausible explanation that they're all coming from the same thing. Exactly right. Could you take me through some of the more chilling experiences that you have personally had investigating cases, things that you've really seen with poltergeist, demons, again, whatever label you want to put on these things? Yeah. I'll give you two and I mentioned some of these

yesterday when we were off camera. And so years, years ago now, I got an email from a family in Ohio. Just say Ohio. I don't want to get too deep like we did the other night, though, in terms of like looking it up and everything. But anyways, and they thought that I was my father. My dad's a pastor. Everybody knows that.

So they said, Mr. Gillis, my family and I are experiencing paranormal activity. we need somebody to come and pray with our family. And I'm like, okay. So I went to my dad and I said, Dad, this family needs prayer. And I'm pretty sure they think I am you and you or me. And he's like,

well, that's your area of work. Like I don't do the paranormal thing. You know, I can pray for them, but that seems more in line with your research. So for some reason at the time, I wasn't,

you know, not that there are news, newspapers to read, but I wasn't, you know, connecting with the local news or anything. For some reason, I think it was a college football. I don't know. So this is what's paying attention. What kind of haunting were they dealing with? What were they telling? Oh, my God, shadow figures, disembodied voices, something that would shake the door handles at night time orbs. And again, I had no context. When I got to the house, I am met by, I think his name was Danny. And the first words, and I knew there was an issue.

Like if I don't know you, you guys could call me this, but if I don't know you and you're like, hey, Nate, not really, you know. It's a little familiar. Have a couple seats, right. You don't know me that well or at all. And so, but he said it like, hey, Nate. And I'm like, oh, God.

I'm like, what's going on? And he goes, I'm Danny. He shakes my hand. He goes, now, look, I don't believe in any of this. B, yes. He goes, I think, he says, I don't believe in you. I don't believe in this. I'm just here.

because my best friend's in there and he needs your help. I was like, okay, that's cool. So I get in there. This guy's just a friend of the family. Friend, yeah, a friend of, yeah, friend of the family. And just extremely, extremely abrasive. And I knew at that moment, I've got my hands full already. And I haven't even stepped foot in the house.

So I get into the home and we're in the living room and there's like six, seven people there. Like they called like a party or a meeting or something, not a party, but a meeting. and it was the husband, the father of the son, I think it was a daughter and then the husband's sister, the father's sister that came from like out of town to help them with everything. And when I'm looking at the husband, he's got his shirt off. And he's got a scar, not even a scar, it was a cut all the way up from here. And it was like somebody just stabbed them and then just ripped.

All the way up the side. Yeah, absolutely. and it was stapled or something and it was fresh. And I, honestly, I was very concerned because I'm like, this is not good. I don't know what's happened, but there's something wrong here that's more than just the paranormal. That was when I sit down on the couch.

I look on the corner of the room and there's another couch there that nobody's sitting on. A lot of them were standing out, something they were sitting down. And nobody's sitting on. that couch and in front of that couch there's carpet that's been cut up about that much of it and i've seen enough of c s i you know in 48 hours and i'm going oh no no no no what happened in here and the family this is this is what happened essentially that they had a daughter the father the husband had a daughter she's 13 years old and she had to befriended a 15 year old at

school and a 15-year-old had a darkness to her, according to the father and the family. They were like, we told our daughter, we do not want you having anything to do with her. Nothing. Whenever she comes over, people hear things, people see things, and they have experiences. We don't want anything to do with her, and we are forbidding you to hang out with her. Okay, that's fine. That's fine. Well, one night, they, he's like, we stay up and watch Netflix and stay.

off as a family and he's like um it's like two in the morning we're watching a show he said we look out the window and there's that 15 year old staring at us through the window just looking at a stone cold he said we would then call the police department they would come out and um they lived in an area that they didn't really have a police department it was just a sheriff's office so the sheriff had to come from another you know another city and come over there to check on by the time they got there other girls long gone. It happened multiple times. And finally, she's like, man, he goes, then my daughter just is a reckless now. She won't come down for dinner. She'll order DoorDash or something, or she'll just stay up in her room. And she had confessed to us that there was something visiting her in the

room. And he's like, at that time, we didn't pay any attention to it. We were just glad she wasn't hanging out with that girl because she was bad news and I can't remember if they put a restraining or I think they did on her or something. Anyways, he goes, then one night, my wife and I are watching television and the 13 year old girl comes down the stairs and he's like, we thought she was getting a glass of water or something. She opens up the front door and in walks that 15 year old into my house for the first time. She had a knife in one hand and a pair of stubbed nose scissors in the other. And this gentleman's disabled.

He was missing a leg. He was like a veteran or something. And so he's on one of them scooters. And he's like, you know, Nathaniel, he goes, it took the whole family to subdue her, do her. And he's like, by the time we got the knife and scissors out of her hand, he's like, I have been stabbed here and like not gutted gutted but almost and he's like my wife unfortunately succumbed her injuries that night and that's why you see the carpet and he said he's like initially he's like

they you know they treated me at the hospital in e-ar and everything they sewed me up or whatever and he's like but the the knife broke a tip off in one of my bones and he's like they didn't discover it till later started getting infected they reopened me up all that it started out He said with orbs, shadow figures, just really weird things, the paranormal. And I said, well, I said, so that's pretty much why I'm here. He goes, yeah. And he goes, and there's an additional fact that I just, he goes, maybe you know what to do with it.

He goes, I've only heard of it in movies. He goes, but when that 15 year old was doing what she was doing my family, her mouth wasn't moving, but there was a male guttural voice coming out of her talking to us and laughing at us. And I'm sitting there with the family and I'm going, oh my God, right? I thought it was just, we got a couple shadow figures, just doing investigation. Now I'm realizing that there is, there's an active haunting going on that eventually turned into murder.

And this was a legitimate case. We looked at the news article and this girl ended up getting sentenced. Yes. And the family wanted me, and I didn't do this, by the way. I just didn't feel comfortable, but they were actually talking to her lawyers to have me kind of talk to her because what was happening was I did that investigation in cleansing that night. And she came back around and called the family and said that the entity that was conversing with her, the 13-year-old, never came back. and I was told that it came back initially and was like I can't come back anymore. That's what it was.

And I can't come back anymore. I never came back. And that was, what that introduced me to, though, was a growth spurt in my career. Because up to that point, it was, this is a simple. investigation, go in there, you know, and maybe you'll catch some data and whatever. That's fine. And we'll go home and we'll try to interpret it and all that. This was like a direct confrontation. And I have the recording in my office in Ohio where I'm going through the rooms. I have the sister of the husband with me because I said, I don't know these rooms at all. You don't either.

She goes, no, it's the first time I've been in this house. I said, okay, so we're walking through the home and everything. And When all was said and done, it was like someone turned a light on in that house. The person, and I'm not going to give her name, but she literally says, Nathaniel, it's like shadows moving. They're moving on the walls. And it freaked me out because I thought I was prepared. Not that anybody could be prepared for that, but I thought I was.

And that's when I re-examine myself and I went back to the books. It's one thing to be book read. It's another thing to be a field researcher. But then again, it's another thing to be a field researcher and then be book read. So you've got to have a balance. And I did not have, I'm not saying I have that master now. That's ridiculous. You know, but.

Was there ever a motivation given for why this girl did this in the court of law? No, not through my knowledge. I never, after that, the only communication I had after that was, you're going to love this, was with Danny, Danny the atheist, Danny, the guy that didn't believe me, hey, Nate. So, okay, picture this. I'm outside on my deck one evening. I get a phone call from the sister to the husband, the father, and she's like, you're not going to believe this, Nathaniel.

I said, what? She goes, Danny wants your phone number. I said, why? Because Danny has opened up the phone book and called every pastor in Dayton, Ohio, and told them what he experienced in that house that night. He was crying. He was bawling.

So he came over as a friend, didn't believe any of it, saw some things while you were there. Yes. And didn't know what to make of it. Didn't know what to make of it. And it was what was fascinating. It was, and I get it someone. I get it.

If I was in his position, I didn't believe in this, And I would be like, yeah, you're, you know, you're full of it. And thankfully, and I can, I give him respect. I give him his props, you know, you were there for your best friend. That's awesome. Even though you believe in this stuff, I get it. But completely different individual. And then once we got on the phone and again, you know, to be transparent, I was still guarded.

You know, you called me the dreaded Nate. So anyway, so he calls me and I answer and he's like, hey man. I just want to apologize for everything. Like, what? He's like, yeah, I just want you to know me. I'm like, that was crazy. You know, I believe it now. He goes, I've never experienced anything like that in my life.

But I never got, okay, my point, at that point, I kind of backed off and I started doing other stuff and other investigations. But I did keep in touch with the original person that contacted me. But that was on Facebook, and that was like, I've not been on Facebook for years and years now. So I never got an answer as to why or what.

Now, the family had a theory. And if you want to get into that, it's disturbing. I don't know if I want to. Because people get it. But they had their theory. But my point, though, is it's strange because all of that took place after a haunting. And then after I was there, a month or two after the woman contact me.

He was like, you know, they haven't had any more experiences. Great. That's what's about him. So, yeah. You said there was another story as well. Yeah. So interestingly enough. And Paul Eno, the late Paul Eno had this as well where you go do an investigation,

specifically dealing with parasitic entities. Not all of them are parasitic. many of them are. They're self-serving. And so Paulino and Shane Searway, a dear friend of mine too, we haven't talked a while, he's an amazing guy. They would go do investigations. And they would encounter parasites is what Paul and then would call them, where the entity would just feed on the family. And it's one of those cases where the word demon is not good enough. It was different. and he would kick him out or he would record them and collect data and they would do different and we never really got discussed like what they would do I never got into that with them

but they would have a lot of success with it the problem though is a week later they'd be called out to another house across street or down the road and they're like we were just in this area like six months ago or whatever that's what happened to me so the second case the more troubling case too at least was across the street and I'm from that same house from that same place buddy and I remember it was it was in the late fall and it's freezing out man and I'm I'm there and I'm knocking on the door and I turn around and I realize there's that white house you didn't know it at the time you just got an address you shut out an address man yeah and what were you told going into it It's a 200-year-old house that the wife was being accosted by an unseen entity.

And the husband at that time did not believe in it. He had some questions for me. So he had questions for me. She wanted to tell her story. And somehow, then you've got to be the guy to go in there and be like, okay, Mr. Mr. She's telling the truth. And then you got to go to the Mrs.

Mrs. Mrs. and say, okay, but you got to understand his position, you know, and in all this. So sometimes it gets really tough. Anyway,

so I'm there. And my first visit with her was with another researcher named Jay. And we were there. And she is a smaller table than this, but she's white knuckled. They just got done eating dinner. So all the plates and the silverware is there. She's got her hands and the table shaken.

And she's pale. And she's like, I feel it right now. And I feel like, what do you feel? She's like, it's in this place right now. It's staring at us. It's watching us. So I said, okay, what have you experience? She goes, well, here's how it is. She goes, I go to bed earlier and my husband, he'll

stay up. She goes, but I'll go to bed and something will creep into bed with me. And she's like, I'll feel it, like slide its body next to me. And I, and she's like, and it's not good. And I'll go into nightmares and she'll be like, you know, it's in my nightmares too. And so it's, it's in both places. She's like, I've been pushed, I've been touched, and just really bad stuff. And I looked at to the husband. The husband says, you know, Nathaniel, I love my wife and I respect what you do. He's like, but I don't believe in this. You know, he goes, I'm a veteran. He's like, I'm a man. He goes, I don't believe in this. And so he's like, but I want to be here for my wife. You know, what can you do to help us? And so Jay and I kind of, we did an investigation. We didn't get a

a lot of much of anything the first visit and then COVID hit because of COVID we were not able to go back to the house for like a month or two at least and so we get through COVID and we get a phone call uh forget her name now it's been a long time but she's like um Diane's like you know we would like you to come back to the house where we're having more more phenomenon and we don't know what's going on. I said, well, this is weird. I said because the last time we were there, it's like October, November. It's October, November now. She goes, yeah, it always comes at the same time of the year. Weird. So, somewhere near there. Yeah, it was like late October and stuff. Yeah. It's very interesting. And she's like, yeah, so I get there, and this was without Jay this time.

And she's there. She's not shaking the table anymore. But I look over. at her husband and half of his face is paralyzed. And she goes, by the way, Nathaniel, my husband believes it now. And she kind of smiled. I said, what do you mean? She goes, he experienced it the other day. I said, well, what happened? She said, well, he thought, well, instead of leaving me up with myself, he joined me.

And he's like, so he's holding me. And I'm trying to fall asleep. He's in bed with me. And he's just present there. and she's like she's like as i'm falling asleep he says he's like as she's falling asleep i feel something moving into and onto the bed he said at first i felt it something moved my leg and it's like that's weird like it's something like like my leg jerked or i had like a a muscle jerk or anything he's like something actually moved my leg and i looked down and there's something crawling into

But I could actually see the imprint of its body and like moving in. And he's like, he goes, Nathaniel, he goes, I don't know what this means, but what would you think if it's playing with your wife's hair? But you can also feel its body at the very end of your feet. And I said, well, it kind of sounds like it's sleeping or not sleeping, but like moving in between you two. And I said, but what did you do? He's like, well, I watched a paranormal TV show. Oh, not good. And he said, I heard of what's called the right of provocation.

And I went, oh, no. And he said, I challenged it. He's like, I'm the man of my house. You're not going to do that to my wife. He's like, so I had to stand my ground. He said, but Nathaniel, how can you fight something you can't see? You can't. You can't.

And he said, he said, nothing happened. No paranormal activity. He goes, I yelled at it. I screamed at it. If you were going to do something, do it to me. And he said, that night I had a dream of something beating me in the face. And I'm like, oh, no, because I could just see the writing on the wall.

You never employ the rot of provocation because you don't know what you're dealing with. And he said that in the morning, he said, I woke up and half of my face was paralyzed. He said, I went to the hospital and they told me, they asked me, rather, have you been in a fist fight? You have a lot of severe head trauma. Is in that case study that the third visit, my friend and I were investigating. So that was the second. The third time we were, the last time we were there, we, the wife kept saying that she's like, I saw children here. She's like, and they're trying to play with my grandkids.

She's like, and my grandkids are saying, I see kids here, mom, or grandma, I see kids. Look, there's a kid over there. And she said, I know it's, they're not real kids. They're, they're, whatever that is. And she's like, it's for that reason that I've not allowed my grandkids to come over to my house. Start a crying. And it's my house. She's like, you know, and I love my babies.

But I don't want them over here because I'm afraid of what that entity could do. And in mid-sentence, we heard a. door shut upstairs, boom. And then we heard something walking, stomping upstairs. That was an interesting case. You heard it. Yes, absolutely. Matter of fact, that was louder than what occurred in my youth.

You could literally, it sounded like a construction worker with construction boots or even steel-toed boots, slamming the door, boom, and then boom, boom, boom. How did this case resolve for her? Um, we, I didn't get back there in a while. I still haven't been back. Um, the last I heard, they began having issues and marriage issues. And I think they ended up selling the house after that. He left her.

I think she ended up selling the house. Wow. So, whoa. I mean, those are heavy. Well, do you do anything when you go as a, you know, you're obviously there in a research capacity, but are you doing sage burning? or anything like that? No, I don't do that, man.

Why not? It's never needed to. And I don't even, and people, I know people are fearful for me, the attachment, a hitchhiker effect and all that. How do you just make it stop, though, for them? Is that what you're there for, or you there just document? I'm there to document. Yeah, I'm there was a time of my life where I was like, I want to stop this, and I do, I do.

It's just that there's a gap and people that are in the field know this. This is why a researcher has to be well-rounded. I'm not saying I'm round. I mean, I am. I'm swell and swollen, right? Hey. There we go. Maybe I am a round.

No, I mean, a well-rounded researcher. Because I realize, you know, like, it's one thing. I said, it's one thing to be book read on this. I know what I'm dealing with. We don't. We don't. That's the point. I remember being contacted by a PhD.

Ms. PhD got her, she wrote her doctoral thesis on evil spirits. went through like it was fascinating fascinating a thesis and yet one night I'm on a zoom call with her and I asked her straight up like I've looked at your credentials because I made her prove it to me I was I said I can't you know people say their PhDs all the time with me it's like okay I want to see the diploma I want to right and she and I know it people are going to say I'm mean to do that I don't care you know because I want to make sure I'm not being manipulated so finally she presented them to me. I said, okay, fine. You know, like, why am I talking to you right now? I should be asking you questions because you have the Ph.D. I have ADHD. Why are we talking?

And she said, because I got my thesis on evil spirits and then I went into investigations. And there was a profound gap. I thought I knew versus what I know. I experienced something with, again, it's like I know gardening. No, get your hands dirty. when you actually get into the murky mud and the dirt and the soil you'll you'll come in contact with the root system you would have never known existed just by reading books on gardening yeah and that's where i and that's where i'm at now where i had to take a step back and and re-examine my approach and that's when i got in contact with steve mera and finally i lectured with him in england and then in h i discussions were born. Where am I now in my research? I'm getting into parapsychology and consciousness. I'm very interested in Resvick's work, I believe, Rizvak's work I believe, Rizvac, I think it's how he's pronounced. The aspect of rendering is interesting to me and how that it's possible that when we're interfacing and interacting with these beings, we could potentially witness the entity, the

substrate in the interface and be calling them three separate entities. Yeah. But really, it's rendering and we're capturing it. That's where I'm at. God, I'm not saying I have all the answers. I have all the questions. And I think that's good enough at this point. Where can the people find you if they want to research more,

if they want to learn more about the work? Wherever chicken wings are. And college football. No, man. Of course, I'm on Instagram, on Nathaniel. Gilis, you can follow me on YouTube. You can subscribe to my platform Parasaposia. Weekly, Steve and I, Steve Mayer and I do an NHA discussion that we release. Thank you for having me on, man. It's been a blessing to be on with you, and I've enjoyed myself. This is amazing. Can't wait to do it

again. Absolutely, buddy. Do you wish you could just hit skip on the worst parts of your life? You know, the same way you can skip an ad? I get it. I'm Siaia and I live in Ice Cove. I've made some questionable decisions that didn't end up the way I planned, and today I'm still figuring it out. Somehow things usually get worse before they get better. Apparently, that's how I roll. So bundle up and come along for the bumpy ride. Stream a new episode of North of North Tuesdays on CBC Gem.