Camp Gagnon - UFO Expert on Brazil's Roswell & His Alien Encounters

Episode Date: May 15, 2023

Jay Christopher King talks with us about the reality of alien life, Brazil's Roswell still being a mystery 25 years later, and his own encounters with alien lifeforms. WELCOME TO CAMP.Thanks to BlueChew, The Freeze Pipe, & Morgan & Morgan for sponsoring today's episode!Mark Gagnon is our HostWill Schwartz is our Content Producer and Lead EditorGabriel Reyes is our Community ManagerKostis Zacho, Gabriel Reyes, & Theodore Bukvic are our Clips Editors

One of these abduction events happened in South Beach, Miami, like after a wedding, we were staying as guest in like a high-rise. I remember I was taking off my suit, just looking out the window because it was a great view. I look down towards the pool and I see this weird disturbance, maybe five or six stories down. It looks like a weird, almost like bottle lightning and it like speeds up and comes toward the window. All of a sudden there's like this weird electrical charge. It feels like everything's vibrating. As that happened in the window, there was a strange red light that seemed to be attached to like a small device.

Weirdly, two beings appeared outside the window where, again, I'm guessing like 17 stories up or something like that. I don't know what they're standing on. It seems like there's some dimensional layer or something. Something's overlapping. And all of a sudden, instead of me moving somewhere seemingly, the objects in the room seem to disappear. and then me and those two beings are in a different space entirely. And there's like a weird floating medical bed. And like I'm placed on this cold bed and it moves back and forth.

And it seems like it's trying to like sedate me. I felt as if my spirit was about to leave my body somehow. And then I see again that weird red device. It's basically pointing at me. And then all I saw was blackness around me. And it felt like there was something being done to either my spirit or my spirit or my mind somehow to make me not remember whatever was happening to my potty at that point. I don't know if that was like me just blacking out from trauma.

I had no idea. I woke up in the king size bed, but I was on top of the covers. I still had most of my suit on and I was like panicked. You guys never talked about that after that moment. Not that I can recall. This is Jay Christopher King. He's an expert in UFOs and non-human entities and co-founded the largest community of experiencers, aka people who have had direct contact with alien beings.

And today, we're talking about alleged alien life being recovered at Brazil's Roswell, the Virginia incident, why he believed some religious visions could actually be non-human life forms. And he even explains his own personal experiences being abducted by unknown beings. I'll be honest, this episode left me with a lot of questions, and I don't really know what to believe. So I'll let you decide. Without further ado, enjoy my conversation with J.K. Welcome to camp. Jay Christopher King. I have a question.

Sure. Do aliens exist? Do other forms of advanced non-human intelligence exist? Absolutely. You know, there's a lot of opinions about where these quote-unquote aliens come from, right? You know, are they from another planet in our universe? Are they somehow interdimensional, you know? People seriously.

entertain these ideas, right? Could they have an outpost on earth or, you know, under the oceans or on the moon, right? Are they just future time travelers coming back to study our civilization for some reason? You know, all of these are possibilities. And so it depends on what your conception of an alien is. But given that, absolutely. Yeah, I think when most people hear alien, they're probably thinking like gray, green guys walking around. Sure. So an alien could be bacteria that we find in a galaxy far away. That could be life that's not on Earth. 100%. It could be an animal that we find on a different planet that's kind of like a dog or something. For sure. Yeah. It also could be a humanoid type thing or a even more advanced intelligent type humanoid on another planet. So it could be a myriad of different

type of life forms. Is that fair? Absolutely. And not just that, but, you know, when you say do aliens exist, I'm already kind of presupposing the question like, do they exist here or have they visited here? Right. And I mean, just from, you know, what? what's mathematically probable or possible. I mean, when you look at how many stars and planets are out there, I think that even just on that alone, from kind of like the theory angle, like for sure, aliens exist. When people bring up probabilities of alien life,

the thing that people always say is the Fermi paradox. Sure. Can you describe what that is? The Fermi paradox is basically looking at the wide array of, planets, you know, solar systems that are out there and how much of that using using systems like the Drake equation to figure out like, you know, what's, how many of these could possibly be occupied by something, whether it's a worm or whether it's something that's bipedal, you know, reads books or whatever, right? But the Fermi paradox is looking at like, okay,

given that there's all of this possibility out there, where the fuck are they? Right. You know, when we look through our conventional telescopes, we don't see them. Or they say that we don't see them, right? You know, there's also been this program called SETI, right, the search for extraterrestrial intelligence that's been based, you know, on the idea of looking for extraterrestrials using radio waves. So supposing that, you know, aliens would use the same way to communicate as we do and the same way that we like listen to the beach boys on the radio in our car specifically you know what

I mean to communicate with each other which is a distinctly kind of like old school and silly concept in some ways right right so this paradox that effectively despite the massive probability that other life exists we have such little empirical evidence that's accepted by modern science that they're visiting earth or that we know where they are somewhere in the universe yeah absolutely and I mean there are challenges to that within within various fields because there's a lot of circumstantial evidence or circumstantial, you know, chatter and things like that that would suggest that a lot of decent evidence has been scrubbed from the historical record regularly from various sources. It's, you know, that that reason alone is partially why people like Dr. Jacques Valet or Christopher Mellon or others have really thrown their weight into the field is from witnessing situations where information or information or, evidence was suppressed or erased.

And that suppression, what would you say are the most notable examples of like informational suppression that we now know to have been, you know, covered up in some way? Well, okay. So one of the most notable within the field of kind of like unidentified anomalous phenomena of any sort these days that many people might be aware of was about five and a half years ago in 2017. a guy named Lou Al-A-Lazondo had been running a program looking into UAPs for the Pentagon. And it was a program called A-T-I-T-I-P.

And Lou Al-A-Lazando left that program because, and resigned very publicly, because he was frustrated with the level of suppression of evidence that was going on. and he together with a guy named Christopher Mellon, who is the former, am I going to get this right, deputy assistant secretary of defense for intelligence. You nailed that, dude. Thanks, man.

I don't even know if that's right, but it sounds really good. It's pretty, if it's not, there might be one flip of the word there, but yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's him.

And so, um, they, those two kind of work together in a way and, and approached, um, Leslie Kane, Ralph Blumenthal and Helene Cooper.

Those are three very well-respected journalists. Ralph Blumenthal is a former bureau chief for the New York Times. Now he's retired. He still contributes every once in a while. Leslie had worked for NPR, the Boston Globe, and had been writing for the New York Times. And Helene Cooper was kind of a D.C. rep for the New York Times, kind of a go-between these various agencies and the New York Times.

Got it. In some ways. And those three respected journalists had co-signed and sort of confirmed that there was cover-up within the evidence with this A-TIP project. Right. So what happened was, is that Christopher Mellon, we now know, Christopher Mellon himself basically literally took files of those kind of famous now cockpit videos that you and probably have the world seen by now, this kind of down-resged cockpit videos.

that are called the gimbal and the go fast videos, right? So Chris Millen basically walked out with those files and handed them to the New York Times as a leak. And they told Leslie and Ralph and Helene that Harry Reid, Senator Harry Reid, a Democratic senator from Nevada, had organized getting funding for this A-Tip program. originally. And they were like, Harry Reid is willing to talk about this, right? So Helene Cooper herself

flies out to Nevada, meets with Harry Reid, and Harry Reid confirms it, right? And so they've got this. And what does he confirm? He confirms that he helped get funding for this ETIP program to study unidentified anomalous phenomena and that Lou Elizondo was essentially heading the program, right? that there are other people involved, but that Lou Alessando, he resigned in a Huff. Immediately there were people that were like, who is this guy? And those three journalists from the New York Times were able to confirm that he was doing the work that he said that he was doing. Exactly. Right.

And that those, and eventually were able to get confirmed from the Pentagon that those UAP videos, those cockpit videos were in fact anomalous videos. anomalous craft and they couldn't be identified, right? It took the better part of two and a half years to get the Pentagon to officially confirm that, but eventually they did. I think it was in April of 2020 or something like that. And so that suppression was effectively, like while he was doing the work was effectively that they had those videos and he wasn't able to use them. Like what was the suppression within the work?

Do we know that? Well, I mean, in terms of the suppression, there's, there are a lot of, of, of, there's a lot of lines that kind of get thrown out about like why does this suppression happen there are jokes made within the community about how even the shape of some of these anomalous craft gets suppressed and and there are all sorts of reasons that get thrown out there about why and a lot of them have to to do supposedly with the advantages of potentially being able to reverse engineer crafts like this like if anybody's since it's, it represents, it seems to represent such, not just next generation, but like possibly

hundreds or thousands of years of technological advancement, that, that if we were able to get a leg up, we being the U.S. military, we, not really us, not you and me, but, you know, possibly one of these defense contractors, another country, another organization, a private enterprise, if they could get a leg up on that, well, psh, you know, then that could be game over in terms of like domain, domain superiority. Right, right. So that would explain the reason why the Pentagon or other government contractors would want to try to, you know,

look into these types of phenomena. But why would they want to suppress the evidence that they're coming up with within their own research? It's a great question, you know? It's a great question. And one of the most maddening aspects of this field in general of kind of anomalous studies, if you want to put it that way.

uphology as people like to talk about as well, you know. It's a challenge because, you know, there's, there have been these long form ideas since this coverup kind of started. You know, there was a guy named Donald Kehoe who, who documented the early years of the cover up back in the early 1950s. This guy was writing. Oh, wow. Yeah.

And he had a lot of friends in the Air Force that were willing to talk. And so he wrote a series of books called like the Flying Solution. are real, flying saucers from outer space. They had these silly titles. But they had great information in them. Right. And because he had immaculate sources. And he was seeing during the beginning of his research that initially the military was

kind of open about this stuff. I mean, people forget that, you know, maybe we're skipping ahead here. But, you know, there was a supposed crash in Roswell in 1947 that, you know, has captivated the imagination for decades now. Yeah. But the reason why people initially knew about the Roswell crash. is because the Air Force, you know, a publicity wing of the Air Force actually proudly declared it, like the day after it happened to a paper called the Roswell Daily Record, the nearest newspaper,

right? And it caught on like wildfire. And within several days after that, they were like, actually, we were kidding. It was a weather balloon. We have no idea what's going on here. I see. But so there was an early, there was an early aspect to this, you know, the situation where, you know, the military and others were flirting with the officer. idea of being a little bit more open about this process. And gradually, you know, through a bunch of committees, through a bunch of people that, you know, most people have never heard of, it was decided that that this was like too much for the American public as people were putting it at that time. Right. Or now like the world's public, you know, it's too much for them to grasp as if, you know,

we're all children and we can't accept the idea that there might be, there might be something else out there that might even be ahead of us. When in fact, I don't know, there's a lot of people in the world, I think, that would welcome the idea that we're not this, you know, sharpest tool in the shed, right? Right. Because, you know, I don't, there's a lot of questionable ideas and actions out there, right? Right. So in terms of, so obviously we've kind of laid out that there is a lot of different interpretations

of what quote unquote alien life is. Sure. Within your framework and kind of how you see it, what do you think is the most likely or most probable explanation for what is happening in terms of when we get visited by UAPs or these unidentified aircrafts. Sure. I think one of the safest ways to look at it is that other civilizations are probably doing what we do, which is send probes to other planets to check stuff out.

I think like, you know, kind of full stop that that's maybe the safest way to look at it. And then it kind of grows from there. Right. You know, on top of that, it's like there, there's this idea, right, that for a long time that UAPs were only seen in the sky and then they start, or UFOs were only seen in the sky, that that that was the extent of it. And that was partially because of like the semantics, the nomenclature, right, an unidentified flying object, right?

Right. And then recently they've been renegotiating these terms, you know, first it was unidentified aerial phenomenon and then and then very, very important. various folks had kind of settled on recently unidentified anomalous phenomenon to represent the fact that these things are also seen, you know, undersea going at in the same space. That's the UAP definition. Right. Got it.

And then, you know, the idea that there is anomalous phenomena that's not just craft, you know, that people see like glowing orbs and that people see, you know, beings and that there are these weird high strangeness events and things like that that people experience, right? Got it. And that, and significantly that this stuff happens on the ground, you know, it's not just like out in the middle of the ocean. It's not just in the upper atmosphere. It's everywhere. Right. So there's potentially some civilization, would you say on a different planet, some different galaxy? Like, how does your framework in terms of how this functions? Like, how does that play out? Sure, yeah. You know, I tend to kind of look at it similar to, in some ways, to the eminent scientist Jacques Valet, who with a guy named Eric Davis a few years ago, wrote a paper called The Six Layers of Anomalous Phenomena, or something along those lines, right?

So he was kind of positing the different hypotheses for what's going on here. And, you know, I think that there's a lot to that. But specifically, I think, all right, so visiting here, sure. Is there an outpost here? Almost certainly. What do you mean by an outpost? There are hotspots that seem to suggest that there might be some either small outpost of this non-human civilization or these non-human civilizations that are, that are posted up somewhere like on or under Earth, right?

There's, there have been a lot of studies recently that have been done near Catalina Island off of California that seem to suggest that it's almost like a, people are saying like, is it an outpost? Is it a portal? Like, what happens here? But there seems to be so many craft that are seen coming in and out of the ocean right around Catalina Island that it seems to suggest a station of some sort. or some, or maybe some kind of node like a portal, right?

Right. And then there are other folks like the Navy pilot, the Navy FAA 18 pilot, Ryan Graves, who I know, who does the Merge podcast now. You know, he stated that, you know, off the coast of basically Virginia Beach on the East Coast, these things were seeing every day over a very specific part of the ocean that would also seem to suggest kind of like a home terrain or something like that. Right. So, you know, given that kind of evidence, if we trust people like Ryan Gray, as if we trust people like this that are looking at these areas or have a lot of experience in these areas. And, you know, these are experts within their field. You know what I mean?

Like the government trusted this guy to fly, like, ridiculous aircraft, you know, for his whole career, right? And then he became the first kind of active duty person to come out and talk about this stuff, right? Right. So if we trust people like that, then we don't just see that there's some, there's probes, there's study happening, right? And also that there seems to be hubs of some sort. So what do we do with that information, right? And I'm not exactly sure. Like are they from another planet?

Maybe, you know? A lot of people act like they have really solid data about this stuff. Oh, they're from Zeta verticuli or something like that. I'm not so sure about that. Got it. You know, like, could they be time travelers? Sure. Mm-hmm.

You know, I think every generation probably feels like they're the most important generation that ever lived, right? Sure. And at the same time, it's hard to escape that we are in a very strange position right now as a civilization. You know, with technology, we all are walking around with supercomputers in our pockets. Like, all of a sudden, we can talk to AI whenever we feel like it. You know, things have gotten really creative.

crazy, really fast. Yeah. Times are strange. Things are bizarre. Yeah. And they've gotten progressively more bizarre in the last 150 years or something. Absolutely. Absolutely. And a lot of people point back to the advent of nuclear weaponry and saying that, you know, this stuff, in terms of like UAP, UFOs and stuff like this, that that really picked up when around when we as a civilization started creating and experimenting with nuclear weaponry. Like the 30s and 40s, like Oppenheimer's Absolutely. Absolutely. And that there's a guy like there's a guy named Robert Hastings, for example, that wrote a book called UFOs and nukes. There's a whistleblower named Robert Salas. There are a lot of folks that point towards these big cases where regularly, regularly, UAP were seen seeming to kind of like monitor secret nuclear weapons facilities, like out at Malmstrom Air Force Base or at, at, you know, Rindlesham in the UK, which is a joint base between the U.S. and the UK, or down in New Mexico,

where, you know, a lot of UFO lore kind of lives. There have, it's, you know, of course, one of the primary areas where nuclear weapons have been tested. And a lot of these sightings have been near or on nuclear facilities, which is kind of fascinating. And what are some theories as to why these other civilizations, not human civilizations, would be observing nuclear testing facilities. Some people think it's because it's like basically

where monkeys like hanging out on the back of rockets or a kitty cat that learned how to use a handgun or something like that, that we're not fit to be toying around with what we have in front of us. Or possibly other people have suggested that there's something further along the line of nuclear fission, fusion, something along the line of nuclear power

that might give us an upper hand in terms of getting to wherever the heck they're from, right? And so monitoring, like, our progress with nuclear power might have something to do with making sure that we're kept at arm's length. I see. So, you know, those are a couple suggestions. Right.

And whether that has to do with us getting to breaking through to some other dimension, whether that has to do with us achieving faster than light travel, whether that has to do with us being able to time travel back to wherever the heck they're from. You know, all of these things are things that people seriously consider, you know, that high level, you know, insiders and scientists seriously think about. And, you know, to a lot of us, it seems like the stuff of sci-fi movies. But, you know, that's where our imagination dwells and that's where the creative impulse comes from. Right.

So these non-human civilizations are either observing us with this new. energy because it's one fascinating. Yeah. Or it's dangerous to them because now we're going to get an upper hand in technology or be able to approach them in the way that they can approach us, et cetera. Sure. Basically those two things. And or there's another theory is that for some reason the earth is a hot property.

That for some reason our planet itself is very interesting to them, maybe more so more interesting than we are. And so if we were to somehow make our environment more toxic than it already is, that that would somehow screw with their interests for some reason. Right. And, you know, there's a lot of back and forth about that particular theory. You know what I mean? Because it conveniently aligns with a lot of, you know, environmentalism and environmental concerns and things like that. Interesting.

But it also, you know, there could be something to that as well. Like what if they care more about dolphins than us? And, you know, what if nuclear waste, you know, as and that getting into the seas? What if they're more interested in the seas than they are in us? Right. For whatever reason. I mean, it's no doubt, at least to me as a casual, that Earth has resources found in our solar system that are really unique. Like even just water itself.

Like having liquid water is a unique feature within our solar system. Yep. And so what other things are on our planet that could be interesting to some different civilization that's out there that sees us? 100%. It could be the trees. It could be earthworms. It could be the mycelial network. You know, it could be, there's so much that it could be. I mean, we do have like from what we can observe so far, you know, even having the new James Webb telescope up and stuff like that, from what we see, we're still pretty unique in the situation that we're in. Yeah. So, you know, it remains to be seen what's really the answer there, right? That's interesting. That's quite interesting.

So I want to get back to the portal idea or like that outpost idea. Yeah. So do you think or is it commonly accepted within the UFO or UAP community that this is one type of non-human civilization that's coming over and setting up outposts or is it possible it's many? Like who's to say that it's just one civilization that could be out there versus? you know, 20 civilizations that are all coming in and out of different outposts or having separate outposts and they have different types of technology. What is the consensus on that idea?

100%. There was a long time in the 50s and 60s where people primarily thought that a lot of these, or there were lots of reports of what they called occupants of the craft that looked pretty human, like very close to us, if not us. You know, sometimes very indistinguishable. Sometimes they were taller, sometimes they were a little shorter, sometimes they were a little darker skinned or fairer skinned. But there's a lot of human-looking occupants. Then around the time of like Betty and Barney Hill, which was one of the earlier abduction cases, that started to morph.

And then by like say the time of close encounters of the third kind, there was suddenly kind of like the public understanding that, you know, maybe some of these were those bulbous-headed gray beings that. with the skinny arms and legs that have that really became prominent fixtures of of the movies and TV shows of the 80s and 90s and beyond right but there are other you know there are other kind of more marginal species that that get reported and have been reported for many years and so you know I think in the field in general there are some people that don't want to talk about beings at all really which is bizarre why it's it's it's almost like a bridge too far for some people. I think they get scared.

They get scared confronting the idea of an other that they don't completely understand. But what do they think of controlling these crafts? I don't understand. How can you have one without the other? Exactly, right? That there's, you know, they want to think it's a probe. They want to think that there's something behind it

that maybe that looks or sounds or feels like us. Either because it's actually a secret program of ours or that it's something so close to us. but there are a lot of people out there that get really interested in like propulsion systems or the military or like they love cool airplanes and stuff like that or cool tech yeah absolutely but they're not really built for anthropology right they're not really built for ideas of like epistemology or ontology more philosophical questions about what happens when you encounter a being that might have like a vastly different conception of like

what time is that's an interesting idea yeah i didn't really consider that that if you were to break down the whole concept of some type of like non-human uh civilization that you're dealing with so many separate disciplines of science and philosophy and biology that you're basically like no one person can necessarily be an expert quote unquote in alien life forms because you're dealing with what is the biology of that life form what is the evolutionary process it took for that thing to exist in the first place, the philosophical concept of, is it human or is it not? The technological, uh, physiological or like the physical component of like how do these crafts work and propulsion systems? Sure. You're dealing with so many different disciplines

that no one person will necessarily have all the answers. Immunology. There's, there's so many, there is so many issues to tackle. That's interesting. So if one person is a propulsion expert and they're like, I'm interested in in the study of these crafts, they might have some resistance in talking about the biology of the driver of the craft because that's outside of their area of expertise. Exactly. Interesting. Right.

And so, you know, I mean, it's, and at the same time, it'll, it'll take everybody. It'll take people from all different backgrounds to really tackle this issue. And I think that that's one of the things that I think the wider public should really understand about this topic specifically is that it touches so many different fields. And that it's a really great time because stigma is starting to break down in this field. it's a good time to get in and be an innovator because there's a lot of room for growth within this. Right. Because along with fields like AI, you know, we have something that's kind of so close it's tapping us on the shoulder.

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Visit BluCoo.com for more details and important. safety information. Thank you so much, Blue Chew, for sponsoring the show. Now let's get back to it. So it's not crazy to you that these other life forms could be like semi-human, gray alien or gray being type manifestations, or do you think it is a bunch of different things or are you not really settled on that topic? I'm not entirely settled on it, but I do think that there's a range of possibilities. I think that there are a range of beings that are here. Okay. I think that that's very, very probable given the amount of cases that I've looked at. And also, you know, as people might know, I run a group called the Experiencer Group where I regularly talk with people that have

had experiences with non-human intelligences or or have had anomalous experiences of their own, right? And a lot of these people are not public at all. There's no written record of them. Some of these people, you know, they're attorneys, they're doctors. There are people. that you know we're on the design teams of the phones in our pockets there are there are people that are the heads of Fortune 500 companies and they can't talk publicly because it's a liability mm-hmm but where do those people go to talk what do what do they do right see and that's why you created this group so people could have support within a community that understands what they're

going through without having to be some type of public facing exactly you know truth or so to speak and then get stigmatized for this thing that happened to them yeah that's the sword that I fell on yeah But they can't do that necessarily. The families, their work, their source of income and all the stuff. But, you know, from doing that for years and talking to people like that every day, you start to learn a lot of kind of common points that come up. And you start to hear like data points that aren't necessarily published or public.

And when you hear people talk about some of these situations and these people don't know each other and have no way of knowing each other and have no way of knowing about that data point that I can't find written up anywhere else. That's when you start going, there's something happening. 100%. And that their experiences are maybe more valid than people and the general public give them credit for. Absolutely. So can you describe some of the interactions you've had and some of the common themes that you found

amongst the people that you've spoken with? Oh, sure. Yeah. Okay. So one common theme is kind of like there's an interesting situation where there are a lot of folks that have had their first paranormal experience, you know, between like early childhood and sometime in adolescence.

Okay. Right? That's the majority of people. So we're talking like five to 15? Five to five to 20. Like maybe through college age or something like that. Right. And interestingly, a lot of,

there are plenty of cases where people recognize paranormal situations after that in older adulthood. but people that that have had an experience like that in childhood, sometimes it seems to permanently alter their their sensing abilities in a way that it more, it makes them more likely to have more paranormal or notice more paranormal situations than other people would. And so, you know, there's a lot of thought around like,

Why is that? What is that about? Right? And for example, there's a guy named Dr. Gary Nolan who runs a lab out at Stanford University. He's a very well-respected scientist. And he really thinks about kind of like the biological and evolutionary implications of situations like that, of repeated encounters with certain people.

And like, why is it possible that the radio could kind of get left on? after a situation, if that makes sense. I see. Right? And so, you know, one whole class of, of experiencers, as they're often called, are people that have been stigmatized or feel kind of shame around the idea that this has not just happened once. This has happened across different modalities.

It has happened in different situations over years. And this was something that is incredibly taboo. until like, you know, tomorrow, you know, next year. Right. Right. And so, you know, there's kind of the inconvenient truth where there are a lot of folks that look at the range of types of anomalous phenomena that are experienced. And it's like, who's to say what's an alien and what's a ghost?

Or what's a poltergeist, right? Or what does it mean to have like a weird situation with something that seemed to like have tapped you on the shoulder? or some kind of strange phantasm. Like, is that just a cloaked being? Right. Is that, you know, if it presents as your dead uncle, is it actually your dead uncle,

or is it just fucking with you? Because it understands it's somehow able to access your thoughts. So how do you parse those phenomena? Do you believe in ghosts? I believe that there is ghost phenomena, absolutely. And like, and I've seen, I've lived in a house purported to be haunted when I was a kid, too, in fact. Oh, really?

And, you know, I shared those experiences with my immediate family and, you know, poltergeist activity, like weird shadowy figures. Can you explain what happened? Sure. I mean, like, the first house was in Mishawaka, Indiana. It's kind of near the Notre Dame campus. And we lived in a house that was built in like 1990 or something like that. And just from the first day that we moved in, a bunch of the move.

moving boxes got put downstairs, right, on hand carts. And so they were like four or five stacked up high. And my dad, he's a retired engineer now. And so he had all these manuals, old textbooks that he kept around, just tons of super heavy boxes. And they got stacked up like a totem style in the basement. The next morning, when I woke up to hearing like a commotion downstairs. And when my mom had woken up, she had gone downstairs. and all of those boxes that had been stacked up had been rearranged in a checkerboard pattern across the whole basement floor.

Right? And there was like, like, what did this? Somebody's screwing with us. Someone must have the key. You know? And to hear my mom tell it, you know, later that day, they were still moving stuff in and there was a door off of the kitchen.

She comes, she goes out, into the backyard. She comes back and the oven door was open and the, and the heat was blasting from the oven, right? And she said that she just like, there's like almost this mental flip in her mind where all of a sudden like she kind of blipped over and she had never really entertained these ideas before. And just from out of nowhere, she said, she was like, this is our house now. This is going to stop. And then she turned it off and like, and shut the door. right so she made that decision but there did seem to be something there after that there were a lot of strange situations of objects moving around in the same home in the same home um

seeing like strange shadowy figures out of the corner of the eye and there was like um there's a strange like um a ghost in the shape of a kid like a like a young boy and it would show up and later we heard that a kid who wasn't that age, but in his teens, like killed himself in the basement. And that seemed to be like the center of activity for the house. But, you know, who's to say that that a kid dying tragically in the basement causes something like that to happen? I'm not sure. Right.

And interestingly, like, you know, my parents also divorced in that house. People often guess that highly turbulent emotional charges. can somehow attract weird energy sometimes, right? I don't know if that's true or not. I'm not sure. And interestingly, I got in touch with the person who, at least a couple years ago, was the current homeowner of that place, right? And I just asked her straight up, like, do you have any weird stuff going on in her house?

And she was like, no, I've never had anything going on here. So, you know, I don't know. Like, I think that there's something wrong or incomplete in our context. conception of what we are noticing, you know, whether it's stuff in the skies, whether it's stuff around our houses or out in nature. Because somehow if something happens in your house, it's aliens or it's a ghost. If it happens in the woods, it's like fairies or gnomes or bigfoot or something like that, right? Right. If it happens in the oceans, then it's like a sea monster or whatever, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, why exactly do we think that? And why,

And like we really need to be, start, we need to start comparing notes a little bit more and thinking a little bit more open-mindedly. Right. Because like, you know, it's not just me or the people that I associate with that, you know, it's like everybody has somebody in their family that has had experiences like this, whether they want to admit it or not. Right. Yeah. I guess just linguistically, humans are going to sort of compartmentalize and categorize experiences based off of the context that they happen. So like the setting that it was in. 100%.

So I get why, you know, there's this big umbrella of like supernatural phenomena or whatever. Yep. And we're going to sort of substrata them across whatever setting it happened. And so that part, I get why people do it. But maybe it would be more beneficial for getting cross confirmation for stories by, you know, like you said, comparing notes. And then what was the next house that you went to that you felt had a. Oh, sure. So.

Strange phenomenon. Yeah. The next house that I moved to was in Hanover, Indiana. Yeah. And my mom had remarried. My parents had gotten divorced in that prior house, right? And how long do you live in the prior house? Gosh, it was only about two and a half years or so. My dad ended up living there by himself for about like maybe six months when they're separated. He doesn't like talking about that time. He doesn't like acknowledging that house or like that time. And there's plenty of reasons why.

Divorces are hard on anybody, right? Sure. Did he describe any strange phenomenon when everyone else moved out and he was living there alone? He doesn't, yeah, he's never talked about it. Have you asked him? I've asked him, and he kind of shuts down. And then there have been times where, you know, in my earlier adulthood, where he wanted to deny that anything ever happened in that house,

even though he was clearly around when strange stuff was happening. Right. And then years later, just a few years ago, there was one day where he was like, I'm really sorry that I wasn't so good about talking about that stuff for so long. Like, I really wish I would have done better about that. And then he kind of turned and walked away, you know what I mean? Or got out of the car, actually. Strange.

And so, you know, like, he's, you know, he's a stoic guy. And, like, Midwestern engineer. Midwestern engineer. Locked up. Yeah. very, very based around logic and reason. Emotionally subdued. And religion, weirdly.

So like, were both your parents religious? Yeah. My mom was actually, she's, she's a hospice person now. So she deals with people when they're about to die. That's her, she's kind of semi-retired. Before that, she was, she was a Presbyterian minister. Oh, wow. Yeah.

And my, my dad actually grew up. His dad was a Presbyterian minister. And so they met in church at. kids. Yeah, of course. Yeah. And when your mom saw like all the books checkered in that downstairs, yeah. Did she assume that it was demons? She think it was the devil? Like she was, I think from, I wouldn't want to mischaracterize her, but from the various times that I've talked with her about it, she initially had no idea. And initially she was just scared that somebody had access to the house or that somebody was basically that some bun or something,

something was trying to scare her and that she was scared. Mm-hmm. And that's kind of like the primal. That's as far as she got. And she saw the books and she cleaned up the books. Yeah, she and my dad, I guess. Your dad also saw them. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Did you see them at that time? I don't remember seeing seeing the book boxes now. I mean, like, maybe I did. Right. You know what I mean? But I was young. So you never actually, you don't remember vividly being like, oh, I saw them checkered in the floor. No, I don't, I don't remember that consciously.

Right. Like if I were to like, you know, I can imagine it because I remember the room very well. But like I was six. There are other situations that I do remember from that time with like, you know, a cereal bowl or something like that kind of scooting across a table. You know, odd situations like that that I can still visually recall in my mind because I think partially because they are so scary that they kind of mark. Yeah, of course. It's like the first time you get, you know, burned or something like that. Yeah. It's you're, you make a permanent memory of situations like that.

And what did you do? Like, when you see the cereal bowl just move two or three feet across the table? Yeah. Do you leave the house? Do you call someone? Do you just be like, that's weird and keep eating? I got really used to it, which is strange. But I think it's partially because, like, when you're a kid, like, there's like this clean slate situation that happens.

And it's just like you're still learning about the world around you at large. You know what I mean? So it doesn't feel that strange that these things are happening because you don't really have a frame of references to what strangeness is. It was strange because I remembered hearing about, you know, I watched, you know, TV and I recognized that other people thought that it was weird. It was something that, you know, if you watch Scooby-Doo and there's like a guy that acts like he's a ghost or something like that. Like I was familiar with stuff like that, right? But you weren't intrinsically afraid of that phenomenon. I was actually, I was most afraid of the ghost figure.

Right. Seeing an actual boy or seeing things out of the corner of your eye. Yeah. And like weirdly, like, this is really bizarre. But like the kid would like try to talk seemingly or try to engage. And there was like this weird sound that that would be there. Like I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it. But like there would be like a weird sound when he opened his mouth. And it was almost like a garbled radio station or something like that. It's just very distorted. And I couldn't. Nothing was coming to my head. There. There was no kind of, like, I didn't know what the kid was talking about. And was it as clear as I am to you right now? No. It was more like kind of half in, half out, almost like you could see somewhat through him. But something about when he would try to like make eye contact or connect, and especially when he would try to speak, it was only a few times that I can recall.

But that was absolutely petrifying. Terrifying. Terrifying. the physical stuff moving around, it was almost like I became so used to it that that was somehow normal to me, even though that seems very strange. But again, when, like, I was in my kindergarten, you know, and I'm still like learning about, you know, how there are other countries and people speak other languages and all the other things that you learn or the people die. You know what I mean?

There's all the stuff that you're learning at that point. Right. You're learning how to read. And so, like, everything, I was just a giant sponge. and I was sucking stuff up, right? Like we all are. Right? And so I think a lot of the, the stuff that was less pointed in a way and was more

ambient was a little bit less scary. That makes sense. And what was the last time that you saw the boy? Honestly, I'm not sure. You know what I mean? Like I remember I have a memory of waking up and some of my toys were out on my floor, like some blocks, I think, maybe in a couple toy cars. or something like that.

I remember looking down and seeing some of my toys out. And like that was like not supposed to happen in my house. Like my dad was pretty serious about putting the toys away. Yeah. So I look and there's the toys out and then I see one of the cars move and then I look up and the kids there in my room. And he tries to talk to me and I freeze up. And then I don't remember what happened after that. Like I like my mind goes blank.

I don't know if he disappeared. if he disappeared. I don't know if I ran to my parents' room, as I sometimes did. I don't, and, you know, the more that I talk to other people that have had experiences like this, I recognize that that actually is pretty common. And it seems it had, some people think like, oh, that's, you know, they wipe your brain, whoever, you know, non-human intelligences or something like this. But then at the same time, anybody that's suffered severe trauma will tell you that they often black stuff out, you know. And it's not necessarily something that you consciously want to do. It's just something that your brain some seemingly protectively does for you, right?

Right. And you found this in connecting this back to sort of like non-human intelligence. Sure. You found that this is a similar experience that people would have if they were to see, you know, a being, some type of alien being, things like that. It would be a similar kind of thing. Absolutely. And when you read those alien stories, is it fine to say alien?

Is that like the term people use? People often say like non-humanities or, but, you know, other people say aliens. Got it's, and, you know, I think either's fine. Yeah, I don't want Hollywoodify it too much. For sure. But, yeah, so when people have experiences with aliens, right. When you read those early stories, you're like, oh, wow, this is very similar to my experience as a kid where you see this thing that's kind of human but kind of not. And then all of a sudden my memory is sort of like foggy and kind of wiped.

And then I'm supposed to kind of just like go on with my day. And you find that you had a lot of similarities with those stories. Absolutely. Yeah. And though strangely, I did have encounters with nonhumanities as well later on in that second house that I was just that I was talking about earlier. And what happened with those encounters? I woke up one night and do you know, I don't know if you know this. Back in the early 80s, there were these like, there are these like things that called husband pillows.

They were the pillows that were like overstuffed and they had the arms. Yeah, of course. And I had one of those, like, in an unfinished bedroom downstairs in Hanover, Indiana, and I fell asleep kind of half reclined on this husband pillow, and I didn't normally fall asleep like that, right? And I woke up at a certain point in the night or later, I can't even remember. Maybe it was just late evening. Again, it was a unfinished room in a basement, and so it was actually kind of hard to tell what time it was. at any stage of the game down there. And I woke up and there were two beings that look like grays. Let me say gray as you mean. Like those strange forefoot like beings that are so popular in the imagination of people, right? I hadn't seen. I don't remember seeing.

I certainly hadn't seen close encounters of the third kind. This is like the mid-80s. I think this would have been like 87 or something like that, maybe. 86, 87. I'm 44 years old. And so I woke up and there were these two beings like pass the foot of my bed.

And one of them had like a weird chrome rod in its hand. And one of them started moving. I was like, oh my gosh. And initially I was like, I was intrigued and I wasn't scared yet. But they didn't acknowledge me. One of them started moving towards me

and it had like a weird marionette like motion to it. Like it was gliding like a weird almost insect-like motion. And it was coming towards me. And the other one raised this like rod towards me. And then I blacked out. And like, you know, I don't normally talk about this stuff, you know? Like, I don't normally talk about this stuff on podcasts or in public or things like that.

But it's one of the reasons why I mean, like Ralph Blumenthal, the guy that co-wrote that December 2017 article. Like he wrote a book on John Mack who is the abduction researcher who is the head of psychiatry at Harvard, right? Who studied the aerial school case that we were talking about earlier before we went on camera. Mm-hmm. Right. And Ralph, like a few years ago, was looking into some abduction cases in people, in cases of people that have had come in contact with beings. And he was looking into my case, right? And he interviewed me a lot privately.

And how did he hear about your case? through another person that's kind of in the network of like I started doing these support groups for other experiences like during the early stages of the pandemic like some people like they learned out a baked bread and some people like they took up thatching or whatever and yeah that's what I did yeah yeah so so so Ralph had heard about me kind of through the grapevine and and a guy named Stewart kind of put us together actually through Leslie Kane who was one of the other co-writers of that 2017 article And then he looked into my case and he'd been studying John Max records and had access to John Max private files for like 12 or 13 years at that point. And John had like a private list of data points that he didn't publish. And apparently like my case for Ralph anyway corroborated enough of those points like that rod and other things that he he was very intensely interested in my case. right um and the thing was is at the time i was not like an open person about my experiences at all how old are you when that experience happened that was i was about nine or ten years old okay yeah um and so you know when people are like do aliens exist i'm like yeah fuck yeah they exist

of course they exist um and at the same time like you know i don't know where they came from i don't even know if that's their true form you know what i mean like there there could be element of holography going on here or tricks of the mind like on the part of another being but there's certainly other beings around right yeah i think about that with like u.s astronauts like if another civilization saw an american astronaut yeah they would think that humans have big glass shaped heads right and giant you know the shoes or feet that are you know or that we always wear diapers yeah astronauts do or whatever yeah yeah that's their perception of what humankind is just based off of a very limited experience with one specific human.

Yeah. And they're on their day job. Yeah. So what do these things do when they're not like rolling up on people's bedrooms or whatever or like hang out? But like the idea that they come all the way here, however they do, whether that's interdimensionally, time travel, whether that's, you know, whether they're just have some base under seas and they've been here the whole time. Some people think that. Whether they're from Zeta reticuli or wherever, right? They come all the way here and then they just look at the tops of our houses and we're like, I'm good. And then they go back like it's crazy you know what I mean do you feel as if you could have been abducted in that situation yeah yeah yep and do you have any memory of the abduction so to speak or is it

just that moment of you know the rod going up and then the other alien approaching you and then there are other situations that I remember a little bit better would you be open to sharing those sure okay so yeah again like I didn't think that this you know this wasn't exactly where I thought the conversation was going to go, but that's all right. Okay. As long as you're okay, we don't have to necessarily get into this if you don't want to. Sure. Oh, no, no. Yeah, we can talk about it a bit. Like, I, uh, I, uh, for a lot of people, these situations pick up for some reason in late

adolescence. And like, there's kind of a high point for a lot of folks. I've come to now know. It happened to me. And then like I did some research and, you know, from people like Ralph and other people that have researched this stuff for a long time, John Max records, things like that. Like there seems to be kind of like a high point in people's 20s where if somebody has somehow been picked for this like weird pullout program in a way, for lack of a better term, you know, there's this idea out there that that certain people are picked and then they get repeatedly picked up as some form of like medical experimentation. Like we do with sea turtles or something like that.

We tag them and then we go find them later and see what's going on, see how they're doing. Take some records. Throw them back. Exactly. Right. And that kind of seems to be what some of these nonhumanities are doing. Right. And like I still feel a little strange talking about it, but at the same time, like, it deserves talking about.

And like people in popular, even just from popular culture, know that this is something that people have been talking about for over 30 years now. right and you know eventually with you know these government releases and things like that like we're going to have to start talking about the damn occupants we're going to have to start talking about the beings because they exist and like they've been interacting with people for seemingly a pretty long time right right so do you have thoughts as to how long we've been visited by non-human beings Well, yeah, I mean, like Jacques Valet and a guy named Chris Abeck wrote his, have, they wrote a book called Wonders in the Sky together that was very much focused. This guy, Chris Abeck, he lives in Spain now, really interesting guy. He only deals with cases with like UAP and beings that were from before the advent of flight before we figured out how to put planes in the air. Which is like late 1800s or 1900s or 1900s to think? Yeah, we. kind of had, we had balloons first and then we had planes. And so he's kind of, he's like, he's like

predominantly like before planes and, and preferably before we even had balloons. Right. And so he looks at those cases and he's, he put out another book in January. And he's going to put out yet another book later this year. It's just cases after case, after case, after case that seem to suggest similar situations where people are talking about things that they called flying shields or, you know, things like this back in the day, you know, the nomenclature changes given what reference points people have, you know what I mean? You can look at a shield and you can look at a saucer. Yeah. You can get a pretty similar idea or a disc or whatever we used to that. Absolutely. And like David Fraver, you know, the famous pilot who came out talking about, you know,

along with Leslie and Ralph's articles for the New York Times, it called them a Ticktack, right? And people think about the Tic Tacs now. Of course, or the cigar shaped. Exactly. Or people also used to call them like, they used to call them like flying butane tanks and stuff like that right right but it's just like you know was that post the actual tick-tac you know breathment or was it of course all of our descriptors of these things are going to be relative to what's around us and how we can describe it just based off you know our language and society at the time so in past societies yeah you know the descriptions will be different yeah and you think it could go as far back as you know ancient human history or like

recorded human history you know five six thousand years ago absolutely yeah I think so you know people on shows like ancient aliens and stuff like that will often you look at things like Ezekiel's wheel and stuff like that and like I don't I don't know how much of that it was allegory you know I wasn't there I have no idea and like and then this is the intersectional version of disciplines where you're not a historian exactly and so you're like I can speculate on history but I don't necessarily the credentials for you know dissecting history in any type of scholarly way exactly and so for me you know being able to figure out ways to talk with other people about these subjects and try to break down some of those barriers is super important.

And at the end of the day, you know, I'm a guy that had my own experiences. And then, and so I'm just trying to put puzzle pieces together too. And it became something that was super fascinating, right? Hey, what's up, guys? We're going to take a break real quick because I've got to talk to you about an amazing new product called freeze pipe. Now, I know the video looks a little bit different and the audio sounds a little bit different. And that's because I have to re-record this ad because last week's episode got demonetized because apparently you can't advertise products in this specific way for this specific use.

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compensation for their clients. Yeah, these guys are legit. So if you're ever injured, you can check out Morgan and Morgan. Their fee is free unless they win. For more information, you go to for the people.com slash ganon for the people.com slash gagnon or dowl pound law. That's pound 529 from your cell phone. That's for the people, F-O-R-the-people.com slash gagnon or dial pound law, pound 529 from your cell phone. Now let's get back to the show. Have you had any paranormal? Like, I don't mean to turn the tables on you. No, not at all. Can you think of anything that has been weird at all that you've either seen or experienced? Not particularly. So I grew up really religious, both my parents and particularly my mom is devout Catholic. And so obviously within Catholic tradition, there are, you know,

biblical miracles and there is a spiritual realm that exists. And so I grew up much with that belief. And there's all these, you know, Marian apparitions, which are extremely common within Catholic literature, you know, Our Lady of Fatima, the, you know, Our Lady of Lords, the Virgin of Guadalupe, things like that. And effectively those stories for people that don't know would be that Mary has appeared to specific people in specific times with, specific types of messages and, you know, requirements, whether it's build a church in this place or, you know, consecrate Russia to the Catholic Church and things like that, that have happened post like biblical documentation within the last, you know, I think Fatima might have been like

the 1800s or something like that. 1917, 1920 around. Oh, oh, it was more reason than that. Yep. Oh, my apologies. Oh, no. My mom's going to be so pissed. Just apologize to her lady of Fatima.

Dios meal. But basically, within the Catholic tradition, people look at these as, you know, factual events of Mary or other types of, you know, divine beings presenting themselves to humans. So as a kid, I believed in these things. And now I still mostly do. I'm kind of unsure how I can really reckon with the physical reality that you and I are existing right now. Yep. And the spiritual realm that undoubtedly, in my opinion,

exists I believe that there are more things than we see that sort of like govern our universe. But I don't have any specific experiences where I was like there is, you know, a concrete evidence that there is another thing, which actually for me personally was actually quite isolating because I grew up like I said in a religious community where we would go to, you know, like camps and things like that where we would have, you know, spiritual retreats. And more often than not. the people that were my peers at the time in adolescence were having spiritual experiences where you know they would pray and have you know an apparition or they would you know in some of the more

I don't want to say radical but like more intense spiritual environments that I was in like through school which were not Catholic it was actually Presbyterian would have like you know speaking in tongues or like charismatic spiritual events and I never really saw like I would see some of them sometimes and it kind of turned me off. It seemed like a little too intense for me. And at the time, my religious experience was very rational.

And I was really into like the, you know, epistemology of the Bible and like the study of knowledge of the Bible and really getting into like the Aquinas type like summa theologica, like getting into like the facts and the philosophy of religion. Rather than like the emotional fervor

that can surround it at times. So for that reason, I was a little bit turned off by like high charismatic religious events. Sure. And maybe as a result of that, I'm not sure, never actually had specific experiences. I was large, I was fearful. I remember seeing movies of like Marian apparitions. And as a kid, like going to sleep, praying to God that Mary would not appear to me.

Because the concept of having a married an apparition was so terrifying. Wow. That I was like, not me. I don't want to be a part of this. I believe in God. I pray to God, but don't send me an angel. I'm not the one. And maybe he listened, I don't know.

But I was, yeah, but I never had an experience specifically. That was like, now people in my family have, like my grandmother has talked about, you know, but it's largely spiritual. It's like demons and things like that. And maybe that's because we're primed within a, you know, religious subtext to see these things as demonic or maybe they are demons. I don't know. Yeah.

But yeah, people in my family kind of have, but no, I've never seen anything specifically. That's interesting. about like like a deja vu or like precognitive dreams. Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'll have deja vu regularly. Yeah. I'll have like lucid dreams. Totally. Yeah. Not really a lot of frequency, but maybe a couple times a year. Yeah. But isn't that fascinating? Yeah, absolutely. That is extremely fascinating. But for whatever reason, I don't perceive it as supernatural necessarily. Um, but I do think that they're like fun, interesting sort of manipulations of consciousness.

the human psyche. I think they're cool to think about. Absolutely. And thank you for sharing that, by the way. I appreciate it. You know, I think along those lines, you know, that even just precognitive dreams or like deja vu experiences. What do you mean by pre cognitive dreams? Precognitive dreams. Okay. So like, um, sometimes people have like a dream that where they, there's like predictive quality to it. But it involves like strange details that you couldn't possibly have foreseen. Right. So like, you know, it's possible, like say that like three weeks ago, for example, like I had a dream that I was sitting across a podcast studio from you or something like that. Some handsome comedian.

Some handsome comedian. Yeah, yeah. Kind of looks like a white Jesus guy. It looks great. He's got an excellent car heart jacket on. Thank you. Yeah. And like, you know, like it's possible that I could have foreseen that, you know, if I were to have known, you know, that like you were operating out of New York City and that I was nearby.

and, you know, logically, some of that stuff could have happened in dreams. But would I have known about, like, that specific configuration of, like, of, like, a nest of cables or something like that? But, like, what if that, if I had a precognitive dream where, like, some of those elements are, like, you know, the water bottle on the couch back there or something like that, that those landed exactly, you know what I mean, in the same place? Right. There are these kind of situations in precognitive dreams that people have where it's not just the content, but it's, it's not just the content, but it's the, you know, It's also the context of like the surroundings and things like that that kind of line up in a weird way that then somehow like bear out to be true or like come true. You can explain the framework of the dream, you know, through A, C, and D. Like, you know, this podcast, you could have seen a clip on the internet and not even realized it.

And you maybe could have seen in my Instagram that I tagged New York City and you maybe logged that away without realizing it. And so all of those things can kind of be explained with psychology to say like, no, these things were already in your subconscious. And then when you were asleep, they just manifested as this experience that you had. But you're suggesting that the precognitive part is not those pieces. It is the subtext that you could not have known that maybe no one could have known. That maybe like these cables are not normally here. Or that water bottle certainly is not normally there. And if you had had that type of preconception where you're like, okay, this guy's in New York, blah, blah, and you told it to someone.

And then and there was a water bottle there for some reason. And then you showed up and those things were the way that they were. Totally. That would be an example of the. pre-cognitive event. Yeah. Like, for example, I, you know, me and my buddy James, we organized these conferences, these conference events in New York City and online that are based around kind of like the

study of anomalous experiences, right? And one of the guests that we had most recently is this woman, Elizabeth Crone, who lives down in Houston. Years ago, she was hit by lightning and she almost died. And she had an out-of-body experience where she saw herself being resuscitated. She went off to some other realm where she was talking to some, you know, angelic like being, right? And then she came to and she went on living her life. But all of a sudden she started having precognitive dreams.

All right. Now that would be, you know, like it's, you know, there's proof that she got hit by lightning. You know, she talked about the experience of that. And there's like a whole synagogue full of people that, that, you know, were around when that happened. Because she got hit in the parking lot before service or whatever, right? And so then, but then, as opposed to a lot of people, she started emailing herself, like, writing her precognitive dreams, but instead of writing it just in a diary that couldn't be proven, she emailed them to herself so that there would be a time and a date stamp, right? And so then, like, she started having dreams about plane crashes, right? and like there and including like the one in New York City like the Sully crash where the plane like crash landed in the river right

and she wrote that in an email or to herself earlier in that week right and it got people interested it got you know interested academics and folks like that interested in her case right and and so eventually she she wrote a book called Change in a Flash with this guy Jeff Kriple who really who is down at Rice University and really looks at kind of the cross-cultural implications of anomalous experiences, spirituality, philosophy, and just, yeah, and religious experience altogether, right? And so they wrote a book together and like, I think it's interesting, you know, these pre-cognitive dreams, like there's something to them. And, you know, thank goodness for people like her, like actually emailing herself because, you know, it's easy to blow this stuff off.

Absolutely. And it's brave of her to even come forward with those emails in the first place. I guess her experience is valid, you know, regardless of what it means or the explanation of it. But she's truly having these dreams and then is writing them down. And then for whatever reason, there are, you know, versions of them coming true. Like, do you remember what the details were of like the Sully plane? Yeah. She thought she, she, she, I believe, you know, I might get a couple aspects of this wrong. but she saw that it was floating on the water when it landed,

that it was in a river in a city. She thought it was New York. She thought that she was somehow able to discern that it was a U.S. domestic aircraft. She got either the flight number or like the numerics of the flight number right, as I recall. Wow. She saw people like standing on the wings of the craft as they were being, as they were about to be evacuated. And like, interestingly, like the, you know, some of the most famous pictures that showed up from that plane crash were people standing on the wings waiting to get picked up or getting actively picked up at the time.

And at the time, she didn't even understand how that would be possible. She was like, okay, if you crash into water, you sink because it's a plane and why would it float, you know, anything along those lines. But, you know, I'm not a pilot. But I don't, you know, but like, you know, I don't know whether what was about that, that plane crash, why I was able to sit there. But, you know, I think those were the aspects that I remember. And again, that it was just earlier that week, which was kind of strange. Yeah, it's very strange. And there were other situations.

And I asked her myself, like, why plane crashes? And she's like, it's not just plane crashes, but, you know, it's something that I'm up for talking about. and I don't know why they come to me. Like, I don't know what it is about these things that, why they come to me, or why that pings in my brain. I don't know what it is about my dream life or what is being communicated to me. Right. That seems to be doing this.

Or what it was about that near-death experience that maybe she pushed past the veil of existence and non-existence. Yeah. And so does that have to do with like, you know, if you get that much of a jolt of electricity, whether you're kind of like unmoored in time somehow. Like what does that open up in your brain? You know, is it purely something to do with physiology and electricity or does it have a, is like they're a hardcore spiritual component

that's baked in there? And we just don't have the words for what that is yet. So we need, so we have to point it stuff like religion. You know, I'm not entirely sure, you know. Right. And I think it's important to just kind of like, you know, paint the picture as big as we can and open open the windows and open the doors as much as we can yeah and how many people have stories like that that never you know that they just kind of shoe off

and they're just like yeah whatever have you ever had a precognitive dream um yeah but like but i feel like they haven't they're not they're not they're not as super sick like uh as elizabeth groans you know what i mean maybe just minor sort of trivial things yeah my mom actually has has has more precognitive dreams than I do. Interesting. And she shares these with you? She shared them before. Like just unprompted.

She was like, I had a dream and then it kind of happened. Yeah. Like there was, I remember a situation where one of my nieces, she had a precognitive dream where one of my nieces, her grandchildren, like, got hit by a bus. And she got really vigilant. about meeting my niece for the bus, as I recall.

And like, and weirdly, this situation almost happened exactly the way that she foresaw it to, like through like the side window of her car. And like, my niece was like narrowly averted the bus. So like in the precognitive dream, she got hit, as I recall. But in the actuality of it, she narrowly averted it. And like, would that have happened?

if my mom hadn't been there? Did your mom do anything to avert that situation? Did her just naturally avert itself? I can't remember if she honked the horn or like what happened. And she told me about it before this happened. And she was like, I had this dream. It's really terrifying. And she was like, I don't know what to do.

Do I highlight it? You're like, if I tried to, she got into this like weird existential dilemma with it where she was like, you know, do I go and meet her for the bus? Am I going to like have an effect? that makes it happen if I go and try to protect her from the situation. Yeah, it's a challenging psychological dilemma because, you know, if you have these dreams about plane crashes, right, you're just like, I'm never going on a plane again? Like, does it affect how you live your everyday life?

And especially if you are just like, you know, a regular person that just has a regular job, the idea of, you know, disrupting your life in such a drastic way because of this apparition you're having. Right. And, you know, along those lines. It would be a challenging feeling. For sure. And like, what's, and the psychological way to,

being like, if I would have thought a little bit harder about this, or if I would have worked this problem a little harder in my head, like, maybe I could have like changed the outcome. Like I've talked to a lot of people that have had situations where they came away thinking, like, how could this have happened differently or something like that, right? Now, within the community that you've built, the people that have had different types of encounters and things like that, have you talked to a lot of people that had similar experiences as yours? Yeah.

There are people that have, there are people that have sought out. out that community specifically because of like non-human entity encounters. There are a lot of other people as well. But, you know, for some, for understandable reasons, I guess, like there have been a lot of folks that have, that have joined the community after having situations like that. Yeah. And do they talk about like the rod or like the movement of the grays or things like that? There's, I mean, there's a whole range of things to talk about.

Like, there's the situation where people get like seemingly like lifting. it out of their bed or like the feeling of floating because you're in certain situations seemingly these beings are able to use almost strange like tractor beam like devices to move people this way and that while they're like somewhat paralyzed. Right. So there's a lot of talk about like what is what feels like, you know, literal kidnapping or like the idea, the psychological pain of people being put in a situation. where they're incapacitated.

You know what I mean? And so there's kind of like larger, there's larger issues at play that aren't just about the beings, that it's just kind of more universal sources of pain. Right, yeah. Someone is infringing on, like, your human rights of just like freedom and not being confined

and things like that. Exactly. And regardless if it's a gray that does it to you or an animal or another human, it's going to be a traumatic experience. Yeah. And even among people that have had experiences like this, there's also the situation where it's like, people still come away with it, you know, thinking like, what is this for a greater good? Was I contributing to something that's actually helpful?

Like, if they're doing that because of some impending natural disaster or like problem that we're going to do, like, was I contribute, was all that pain worth it for some reason? Or is this just like some sadistic thing that or something that's going to end poorly for us? Right. You know what I mean? And there's, and, you know, nobody has a crystal clear answer about, you know, and people that think that they do, you know, often years later realize that they didn't, you know. Do you feel like your experience contributed to anything? I mean, it's a good question.

I feel like it contributed to something in that I'm trying to make lemonade at a limit. And I'm trying to like help other people that were in my situation. Yeah, I mean, you've made a community of people that I can connect. So yeah and not just within that one realm, but within kind of the wider realm of strange experiences, right? Yeah. And it's cool to be able to get people together and to have these conversations. And then that kind of grew into this conference series. And a lot of the people that are in the audience there are people that have had their own experiences.

A lot of the people that are on stage are people that have had these experiences, sometimes whether they want to talk about them or not. Yeah, and it can feel so isolating, but just having other people that are willing to discuss it probably makes it feel so much better. A hundred percent. And like, and I've grown just from doing it. It's like, I didn't know whether I could do this or not. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't know how helpful I could be.

I didn't, you know, I still, you know, jury still out on like, you know, at the end of the day. But, you know, in creating a community, then I found people that, you know, have organized dream study groups for like dozens of years. And then they started volunteering to do, you know, these like Zoom meetings that we do through the community and stuff like that. And then there's another guy that like is mainly dealing with people with like, the Monroe Institute Protocol. So that's kind of like out of body experiences and like situations where you can kind of like states that you can get into for yourself through meditation practice and stuff like that. And there's a book club. And there's all, you know, there's all sorts of different ways that people can connect with each other.

And so it's grown way past me and the original other two co-founders, Stuart Davis and Carson Blackburn, to be this to be a bunch of people that have their subspecialties. So I don't feel like I have to kind of like master the whole range. Of course. Yeah, I don't think anyone should feel the obligation to master all of it. Yeah, it's too much, man. Could you share the other details that you remember from that specific experience? Oh, from that first experience? Yeah, of being in the bed and seeing the two.

Okay. Yeah. Well, okay, so one aspect that was kind of strange, that is another thing that was rarely commented on. And I still haven't seen very much in print was that the being that had the rod seemed to be somehow floating just above the ground. Like it's, I don't remember its feet touching the floor. The other it was. And that one wasn't. And you could see its whole body.

Yeah. And like, I mean, I could see, because I was raised up. Right. And I could see that it was floating. I couldn't initially see its feet, I don't think. But I did look. And then it was floating enough that I could see that its feet weren't touching the ground. And it had kind of a weird floating vibe to it.

And the other one, as it started approaching me, I could see its feet, right? Right. But that one was moving a bit stranger. Yeah, super strange. And again, them not kind of acknowledging me was that was the part that really started to get scary. Because I felt like something nefarious might be going on, even though I didn't know that word. Yeah. But like...

But you weren't initially scared. I wasn't initially scared right when I woke up. How interesting. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know why. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know if it's because at that age, like, you know, you want weird. You know, like, you, you know, I was a kid that moved around a lot when I was a kid.

You know, I was, like, I had those strange experiences at the other haunted house. Like, I don't know if it's because of that that, like, I wasn't so wigged out right at the outset. Right. I wasn't tired, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe I was just kind of acclimated. to the situation.

But initially I woke up and I was like, oh, okay. And then as soon as I kind of, it was seconds. And then the one started moving and I was like, oh, shit. You know what I mean? And eye contact? The one with the rod was looking more directly at me. But neither of them, from what I recall, were looking at me in the eyes, but they were looking at me.

Just your form in general. Yeah. But I think part of that is, again, it was very. very fast, but part of it was also that I was like clocking the entire, like, oh my gosh, this one's floating. And I was looking and the other one was moving. And I was got, I got hung up on how its arms and legs were moving rather than. So I think part of the lack of eye contact was me clocking their, their kinetics more than their faces. You were observing them also. Yeah. Right. And then do you remember anything after blacking out? Nope. Not, not from that encounter.

And then you woke up in bed in the same place. Yeah. And, and that's, and like, weirdly, that's a really common age for this stuff to start happening. Years later, many years later, like, this is just last year, I, I happened upon somebody else who lived in that town, in that same small college town that also got, that also had a similar experience, like, within three or four years of that. Wow. Yeah, and what's that about? Like, I mean, does that say that there's some other locality to it or just that like, by the law of averages, I was going to meet somebody from that random, you know, Hanover College, Hanover, Indiana, like that tiny little college town, you know, is it because like I'd mentioned that town before that eventually that person was attracted in my direction?

You know, there's a lot of possibilities there. Was there any markings on your body or anything about your physical body afterwards that was suspicious or strange? Yeah. there was another there was there were other situations later there's there were there were um there much later um a partner of mine noticed kind of strange triangular like three weird dots um that would show up on my back or like the back of my leg like places that I wouldn't be able to see them mm-hmm um and she would point them out This happened a few times.

And, um, and there was another situation where it seemed like there was, um, like a weird, tiny little scoop mark that was, um, that, um, was on my leg, like right about here. Mm-hmm. And, um, and every once in a while, it would, um, it would get kind of like, it would hurt a lot. Like, even years later, for some reason, like, right there, almost as if it got inflamed. or like there was some, but it would feel like irritation and intense heat like right on it. And I had no idea what that was about. You know, again, this is when I was, this would have been when I was like 12 that that mark

developed. And it was a little bit shallow, but like the thing was is that the pain associated with it was really strange. And did you feel pain in that space or in that spot years later or did it kind of stop after a certain age? I remember like weird pain in that spot like even into my early 20s. Wow. Yeah.

Weird. Yeah. And like, you know, other people talk about implants and all this stuff. I have no idea. Like I didn't. I was very paranoid about talking about this stuff. And basically like it was until Ralph, Ralph Blumenthal basically like and one of the person this guy, Stuart kind of convinced me that doing this article would be.

better because Ralph ended up writing this article about me and a few other experiencers and he was originally slated to come out in the New York Times. And then they had one editorial changeover in one of the new people, apparently. There was a disagreement about whether it should be published, right? And in the end, that was probably for the best. As far as I'm concerned, for myself anyway. Right. Just a little bit selfish.

So the article didn't get published? It got published, but it got published by the debrief, which is an online. media source that regularly covers like science, defense issues, and UAP studies as well. Got it. Right. And so, you know, is a very, very kind of different audience. I mean, the article still floated around and was still very divisive among some folks. But I thought it was really, frankly, balzy of Ralph to do the article in the first place.

And, you know, this is a guy that led the, led a Pulitzer Prize winning team that covered the first the World Trade Center bombing in 1993. Like he covered huge mafia trials. He's a big bureau chief for many, many years. And for him to like, you know, in a latter stage of his career, to lay his credibility on the line to kind of like back up the idea, not just through this article, but by writing a biography on Dr. John Mack, being like, yeah, no, there's something to this whole, you know, visitation thing.

Yeah. Did you have any other experiences after that initial one? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, yeah, there were, there were, there were a good number that happened in my 20s. It's seemingly like, there was, there was a period between about 23 and 27 where it would happen several times a year. Sometimes, there were a couple times where it seemed to happen a couple times within a month. And then after around when I turned about 31 or 32,

much more sporadic. And I don't remember having an event like that happening since 2017. That was the last one. That was the last one that I have any recall of, yeah. And so are these events all the same thing? Is it happening while you're sleeping and you wake up? Yeah. And weirdly, okay, so, you know, one thing that was also interesting to Ralph

and to other people that had kind of looked into my case before I became, a more public figure within the stuff is that some of these situations happened around other people and so like I have an ex-wife and like one of these like abduction events happened in South Beach Miami like after a wedding

like we were we were staying as guests and like a high rise and I got and like I got like yanked out the window and like And she was there and she saw it. And she was like, I don't want to talk about it.

I can't talk about this. It became like one of the things that kind of broke up a relationship. And there's another situation like before that that were another girlfriend. She was, she would witness these events like this happening. And she, we lived in a like a floor through railroad apartment in Greenpoint, right? One of those ones that has kind of like an L of rooms. And she was, and she'd be like, like, okay, like, where are we going to move the bed next?

She kept wanting us to move the bedroom to a different room to see if it would somehow impact whether these events would be successful or not or whether they would happen, you know, out of some kind of like strange, you know, I don't know exactly what our psychology was there, but I understand it too because like I would do similar stuff. I would try to lock the door. I would try to change variables to see if they would, they would shift things. You know what I mean? So the South Beach example.

Sure. You go to a wedding. Yep. You are in a hotel room or an apartment building? So, okay. So there was a friend of the family, my ex-wife's family. And he was a pretty well-off guy. And he had, as I recall, it was one of those tiny little islands that's between the mainland and South Beach.

like kind of like adjacent to where that little zoo island is in Miami. I don't know if you know that. Yeah. And so it was in one of those big high rises that's kind of like on the way over to South Beach, right? And it was on a high floor. And the, and so we were staying at this guy's place. We had the keys and they weren't there. We were the only people that were staying there, me and my ex-wife.

We're in town. We're going to a family wedding. She was Pakistani. And so we were like always going to weddings, you know. Do Pakistani wedding is awesome. They are awesome. There's a big part of the culture. It's like, it's like, oh, absolutely. It's absolutely insane. You know, like there's that, you know, costume changes. It's wild. And it's, yeah, absolutely. And so, yeah, it was really fun. And we had, you know, and that night was kind of like the main night. And we, and we were getting back. and we were staying in a guest room, which was large. It was bigger than this room that we're in right now. And marble, like marble-ish, marble or stone floors. I can't remember exactly what, but, you know, stone floor is very cold to the touch. And like a big mirror, like behind a king-sized bed and a huge window. And the window overlooked pools, like one or two pools down below, right?

Swimming pools. And like a lot of pools, they were illuminated. at night. And I was, I remember I was taking off my suit and like I just just looking out the window because there's a great view. And I look down towards the pool and I see this weird disturbance like maybe five or six stories down. Right. And it looks like a weird, almost like ball lightning or, you know, is described or something like this. This strange ball of looks like electricity. I don't know what it was. Like those plasma balls? Like a finger. Yeah, something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of like that. Yeah. And so one just

appears right where I'm looking between me and the swimming, the illuminated swimming pool that's down there. And I was like, oh, this is not good, you know. And I don't know why. You know, I just, I think it was happenstance that I happened to be looking in that direction of the time. But as I looked at it, this, it was, it was either growing or it was coming closer or both. All right? And so then I called my ex-wife over. I probably shouldn't mention her name,

but I was like, get over here, get over here. And she comes and she looks and she sees it immediately. And it's started and it like all of a sudden it speeds up and comes toward the window, right? All of a sudden there's like this weird electrical charge in the room. It feels like everything's vibrating. Is the electricity getting impacted in the room? I don't, you know, I'm not sure, but it felt like there's a charge, almost like static electricity, but it felt

vibratory, for lack of a better term. Okay. Was there a noise? I don't remember a noise. And, but I do remember is that when that was happening in the window, there was a strange red light that seemed to be attached to like a small device that was almost, that was like maybe about the size of a mic or something like that. Like,

but it was, there was about the length of one, but there was a red light and there was like a little piece of technology there outside the window. And I saw it, she saw it. And weirdly, as that happened,

um, I know it sounds really, the whole thing's bizarre, right? The whole thing's bizarre. As that happened, strangely, two beings,

appeared in the window outside the window, right? Outside the window where, again, I'm guessing like 17 stories up or something like that. And I don't know what they're standing on. I don't know. It seems like there's some layer of, there's some dimensional layer or something. Something's overlapping. And suddenly these beings are right there. She turns around, starts to move away.

and as she does, she like passes out cold. And I don't know why that happened, whether that was a trauma response or like something, I don't know if it had anything to do with the red line. I don't know what it had to do with, all right? But like she's moving away. And again, it's like a very hard floor. And so I move and I grab her head as like as she's hitting the ground. And then I turn around and those two beings are inside the window rather than outside the window.

Right? And weirdly, I know it's super bizarre. Again, the whole thing's super bizarre. There's like this weird electrical charge in the room. And all of a sudden, instead of me moving somewhere seemingly, the objects in the room seem to disappear. And then me and those two beings are in a different space entirely. Right?

and they and there's like a weird floating medical bed right and then and like I'm placed on this cold bed and it moves back and forth and it seems like it's trying to like sedate me or something like that or soothe me and then I see again that weird red or something like that red device that red light device and it's off past the bed and these two beings are it's basically pointing at me this weird light meanwhile this weird hum is kind of coming through this weird cold bed not really a bed it's more like an i don't know like a like a like a slab that seemed to be like for medical procedures or something like that and then um i think felt as if like my spirit was about to leave my body somehow. Like I felt like my consciousness was

getting loosened up somehow. And then I, all I saw was blackness around me. And it felt like there was something being done to either my spirit or my mind somehow to make me not remember whatever was happening to my body at that point. So, well, I don't know if that was like me just blacking out from trauma. I don't know if that was something to do with whatever they were doing was swaying that little with that, the weird hum and the light that was pointed at me. I don't know what the fact. I don't, I have no idea. And then, and then, um, I woke up in the king size bed, right? In the bed and, and, and, but I was on top of the covers. I still had most of my suit on. She was under the covers and she was right next to me. And I was like, and I was like,

Hey, so that was weird. And she was like, I don't want to talk about it. Was she all in wait when you woke up? Yeah. And she was just kind of like looking at me. And I was like panicked. I mean, or scared or whatever. And she was and I was like, so,

and she was like, I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to ever talk about that. I don't want to ever talk about any of that. And I was like, and she kind of sat there and waited for that to kind of land with me. and I was like, okay, all right. And then she just, and then she got up and walked out of the room. That was her way of like ending the conversation right then. Wow.

But I understood where she was coming from. Of course. I mean, and then you guys never talked about that after that moment. Not that I can recall. Now, like the skeptic is probably listening being like, oh, is it possible that these events are, you know, drug induced? Sure. Is it possible that, you know, were you experimenting with drugs at the time, alcohol, weed? I mean, I drank, but like I wasn't, but like drinking doesn't like make something like that happen. Of course. And also if you're having experiences when you're 12 years old, like I doubt that you're drinking and doing drugs at 12.

No, no, absolutely not. And then I guess people would point to like, oh, you need to be like evaluated. Like there must be some type of, uh, oh sure, you might be having some type of psychosis. Oh, absolutely. causing this. Sure. And what is your response to those people? Well, just think about how many people, if this is, if what I'm saying is anywhere near accurate and what other people have said is anywhere near accurate, just think of the amount of people that have been unnecessarily prescribed, like, like very, very, you know, hardcore pharmaceuticals, even being institutionalized. Or, you know,

there have been there are people that have committed suicide and done a lot of self-harm because either they themselves were like they didn't have a support structure around them nobody believed them or they didn't necessarily believe themselves you know and I and at the end of the day you know there's aspects of that that are as important as the idea that we're not alone in the universe right and you know there's there's a lot that needs to be done in terms of people being able to talk to each other because and from a skeptical perspective you know if this is if this isn't if there are situations like this where people you know I'm sure that there are plenty of situations where there's where people are having like a break with reality schizophrenia all sorts of situations

that might exhibit similar characteristics but if people can't talk about them one way or the other, that's bad, right? Yeah, of course. And then on top of that, there are like, there is like a very kind of, you know, somewhat secretive group of, you know, psychologists, psychiatrists, medical professionals that that are very interested in this topic that recognize that there's a fundamental reality to it. You know, this goes back to Dr. John Mack at Harvard and before and sense.

and, you know, and thank goodness, you know, through the power of the internet and things like that, some of these people have started finding each other and are able to, you know, quietly do studies and kind of like pursue this topic because, like, you know, I'm not qualified to approach it from, you know, I, you, anybody else, you know, we're not qualified to do the work in the way that like Dr. Mack did and things like that, you know what I mean? And, but it needs to be done. Did you speak like with any therapists or psychologists, not even relating to this topic specifically, but just in your personal life that you chose to speak with that this conversation came up and what did they respond with? Yeah.

I had, I had a therapist in my mid-20s and like I, he was a very Freudian therapist. He was actually just a few blocks from here as office was. And he was not chill about the stuff at all and would kind of wig out if anything near paranormal experience came up. And so I learned, unfortunately, at the time, to, like, kind of filter the conversations around, like, abuse or trauma and stuff like that through other means. You know what I mean?

And kind of talk around the issue rather than talk about it directly. Right. So, and I think that's a pretty common situation for a lot of people. How would you weigh out? what would be like his reaction um well i remember one time i was talking with him about like how it seems possible that like physical reality or it's or can be like somewhat affected by like extreme emotions kind of like because i was trying to get at the topic of talking about like poltergeist activity in the house that my parents divorced in they had a lot of chaotic

emotional energy at that time as a lot of people do and that kind of time at that time of people separating stuff like that. And so I was trying to approach that topic and I was like, you know, like if, you know, sometimes when people are really worked up, I think, you know, it can really affect things. And he was like, he's like, I don't know. But I had already read, I had already read, I had already read, um, memories, dreams, reflections, which is Carl Jung's autobiography, right? And he had this pivotal story in his autobiography where he talked about talking about this

very subject with Freud. and that there was like a knock in the office when because Jung was trying to make his point and he was like that is what I'm talking about that's physical reality getting affected by by a situation like this and he's like there's going to be another knock and then there was another knock and Freud flipped out well I told this story to my my then therapist and there was and I don't know if it was anything to do with it or not but there was like a knock in his bookshelf right? I mean like a loud thud in the wall and like that could have been anything. I don't know that it was paranormal. It could have been whatever. But the coincidence. But he wigged out. Yeah. I mean,

that's very strange. If like while you're telling me the story, if there was a knock, I'd be like, yeah, it's bizarre. Yeah, it's bizarre, right? So anyway, so like that, you know, whatever the source of that knock was, and I don't know. It is a weird, it's a bizarre coincidence. Yeah, it could have been someone bumping the wall with their elbow. Sure. But why did they bump their elbow against the wall? In that exact moment. At that exact moment. It was enough. Strange.

That, you know, I could see that he was kind of shaking a little bit. I was like, okay, so this is not, this is not the kind of stuff that this guy is down with. Right. And you're having to censor yourself, you know, around people that are there to, like, help you work through things. Exactly. And so, you know, I stopped seeing that guy sometime soon after that. Interestingly, like one of the, I think the last session I had, my mom was in town. And he suggested, well, why don't, why don't, why don't, why don't, why don't, um, how.

have your mom come to the session too. And I was kind of leery about it, you know. It was, you know, it seemed like a kind of breach in a weird way or something I wasn't super comfortable with. The point of therapy is to talk about her. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. We can't talk about these people. And then it's just, you know. And they live in my head enough. They don't have to be. But, um, but I love my mom. And so she, so she, um, so she came along and, and somehow the subject of the paranormal came up. And like, and she, and I can't remember why.

I think he might have brought it up, you know. He was looking for some kind of, he was looking to see if there was a there. I don't know what. But she was like, yeah, yeah, I wouldn't have. And he was, he was very flummoxed, you know what I mean? By the casualness that she sort of. Yeah. And I think just being like, are they both crazy?

It's just, like, like, what else is going on here? You know. Did you feel like he was judging you as like crazy for lack of a better word? I think that my guess, and I'm not sure because I can't, I couldn't see into his head, was that he maybe thought that there was something way more fundamental or important that he had been like missing or that he had been either ignoring or conveniently ignoring or missing the entire time and that that that that um that he was very surprised. and I don't know if that's because there's, you know, I would guess that it doesn't have to do necessarily with him thinking at the time that there's a fundamental reality

to what we were both talking about. But that's okay. You know what I mean? Like some people are never going to have an experience like this and consequently they're never going to believe that it ever happened. Probably most. Probably most people. I'm sure.

Well, I'm not sure. You know, I think, you know, it seems to me that like, and this partially might be just because of the way that I've organized my life and the people that are that are hang around me now because like there are going to be people often that are interested in this topic and there are probably some other people that probably avoid me more you know and that's that's okay but like when I'm when I'm around folks you know if I ask somebody like you know have you ever had something weird happen

like I did with you and it's like you know a lot of people they're like not really and then they're like well there was this one time and you know it's something it's either it's deja vu or it's a and like you could think of that as a completely different class of this stuff that's funny you know people say like oh you know I did I did think that I you know saw my grandmother once and you know what I mean when I woke up one day and it's weird you know people will say that they saw an orb you know like there's all these strange things that like pop out and it's like so you didn't think there was there was nothing you never had a paranormal experience. You thought about it for 10 seconds and then you rattled off something that was obviously

not day-to-day reality. Right. But you find people are just in this default position of like, nope, I'm normal. Nothing weird going on here. Absolutely. And that there's a denial about experiences that people have. Yeah, I think so. And not just like conscious, I think there's conscious denial. And then I think that there's like cultural denial where there's there's the aspect of like what is talked about in this field is consensus reality, which just like they agreed upon reality when we go to work or we're at the grocery store or whatever. And then even within our family groups, you know, like you were talking about earlier, like Our Lady of Fatima or something like that, that's a different shared reality that you might

have with people in a religious group or your family or something like that. It's like, oh, yeah, that. Yeah, that's real. I see. So at work, no, I don't believe in the supernatural. Right. Then you hang with your family and it's you're like, okay, let's pray before dinner to our God in the sky. Exactly.

And you're like, okay, well, which is it? Sure. And that your beliefs can be as malleable as the subtext in which you're existing in that exact moment. Absolutely. And so, you know, like, but then when you go to work, like, Marian, you know, apparitions are not. Right.

Right. But that case is fascinating. I mean, I'll go back to that later. But, like, there's a lot going on with that. And, like, that specific case, there's a lot of parameters around it that people have studied for years, not just because of the religious component, but because of the other things that people reported. Yeah.

Like, it was also seen by thousands. thousands of Portuguese citizens, right? Like simultaneously. People reported a buzzing in the air like the kids did at the aerial school sighting. People reported like a flying hat. Like, what's that? People like, there are accounts of the time that said that two of the three kids

saw a female presence and that the youngest one saw something that looked more like a weird humanoid non-human being the first couple times or something along those lines, right? So there seems to be, there's, you know, there's also an element where people like Jeff Criple and a woman, Diana Pesolka, who's like a fantastic academic who wrote a book called American Cosmic looking at situations of spirituality, religion, and paranormal experiences. And there are a lot of folks that are really fascinated with that case specifically because it seems to be like a key and a lock in terms of like, like, it's a case that people keep

rooting around as kind of like, if we can figure this one out, then maybe we've unlocked something big about this whole thing. And maybe it's bigger than just quote unquote aliens. And maybe it's bigger than just spirits of dead religious figures. Right. Yeah. Obviously, my perception of the event growing up Catholic and I guess like the Catholic perception of things is that Mary appeared to these children in Fatima, Portugal.

And I think appeared three times. three or four times I think but yeah I think was multiple apparitions to the same children with specific requirements and requests and things that she wanted them to do or messages she wanted them to relay and that site now is a holy religious site for Catholics to sort of pilgrimage to and yeah it serves as a as a religious site that is basically like my understanding of the story from a Catholic perspective how do you believe the story is or what is a compelling alternative theory to you about that specific event.

Well, it's interesting because there have been other, there have been other, um, experiences than people have had that have been well, um, well recorded. For example, that and not put in quite that,

um, framework, Catholic framework. Mm-hmm. Like there's a guy named Chris Bloodsoe that lives down, uh, North Carolina, as I recall.

He lives kind of near Cape Fear, as I recall. Mm-hmm. He had this strange series of situations where he was with some work buddies. I'm not going to get this exactly right, but it's going to be close. And so he was all with some work buddies. He went off and then had like missing time. His buddies were like, where'd Chris go?

Where'd Chris go? And he had an experience initially with like one or two beings that were kind of like gray's but not quite, right? And one had seemed to have like a weird symbol on his chest that looked like a triangle or something like that. So then he later on, that was wild enough. And then there was something I think about like an orb that seemed to be following their work truck or their like the truck that they were both driving off in or something like that. I'm kind of unclear about that detail. But so that was the initial event, right?

And then after that he started having these experiences where a woman that he called like some weird spiritual figure or some interdimensional figure that he. that he called the lady would show up like outside his house right and then and it would be accompanied by like weird lights in the sky the being would be like floating in the air and would give him weird prophetic messages kind of like what the the fatima apparition did with these kids where the like among the instructions were like here are some like here are some things that are going to come true like you know deliver this to x y and z or whatever right Or maybe they were, those messages were delivered to the kids and then the local Catholic church kind of took that as a secret. I can't remember those details.

But anyway, so, you know, that Marian apparition to those kids at Fatima got these weird prophetic messages. And this guy, Chris Bledsoe, outside of the auspices of the Catholic faith, like had a weird seemingly quote unquote alien encounter. And then at his house he started seeing this weird. Ladies show up. Do you know how he described it was a woman? I think she, like, it wasn't quite Marion in that she had blonde hair and like kind of a robe situation on and seemed to be like in front of something that looked portalish. And, you know, there were other situations that happened that involved like weird spontaneous

healings and really strange situations that happened on his kind of like farm ranch area. but it's fascinating right because like you know if somebody's not catholic and then that still happens and the lady's hair is blonde and not whatever somebody's conception of mary is right you know does that change does that fundamentally shift it into another category altogether or does there some overlap here and you know if we other people have gone to his property and never not necessarily like seeing the lady per se but have seen other orbs like like regularly around his property and stuff like that. And there's a lot of, there are at least a half dozen other people that have gone to

his property and have tried their best to document these orbs kind of floating around and stuff like that. And he himself has. And, you know, there are aspects of anybody's case like that where it's like, you know, how you don't know exactly how accurate he remembers everything to be. Like nobody knows where this apparition came from. How is it connected to that weird initial situation? where I had missing time and saw some of these beings.

Who knows? But, you know, I don't, it doesn't necessarily mean that, that the Marian apparition at Fatima wasn't a religious experience for all those people. And like, there's something about spirituality and the paranormal that there's a lot of overlap there, right? Clearly. And maybe it's just because when people have extraordinary experiences, it becomes a spiritual experience for them. Right. Right. Are you familiar with our lady of Guadalupe? A bit, yeah.

But that was interesting to me and the one that I was really drawn to as a kid because I just thought the details of it were so interesting that effectively you had this guy Juan Diego, I think is his name. And he is a Mexican farmer living in Mexico, I think like 16, 1700s or something like that. Okay. And he is working on his farm, sort of on like the crest of a mountain range. And again, I'm going to be bochering the details here. But the general idea is that Mary appeared to Juan Diego. And in her apparition, she was like wearing a robe and effectively asked him to build a church, a Catholic church, in this specific place. And that if he was able to convince the bishop at the time to do it, that it would convert the, like, sort of diaspora of people in Mexico at the time.

and the different like indigenous groups that were in Mexico at that time. And so he did. And he was like, but if I go to the bishop, he won't believe that this happened. Like, why would he believe that this was a real thing? And in the ground, I think, where she was appearing, it was in the wintertime in Mexico where there's not as much growth. And on the ground where she appeared, there were all these flowers that sprouted up from her feet. And she said, show these flowers to him. And it'll prove that something supernatural happened.

that these flowers couldn't have grown in this season, and they can't be fresh like they are right now. So cut the flowers, put them in your tilma, which is basically like a poncho kind of thing that was common for Mexican farmers to wear at the time. And he was like, okay, I'll do that. So he put all the flowers in his telma and went to the bishop and basically he's explaining the story,

and the bishop's kind of skeptical, and then he drops the tilma to reveal all the flowers and show him the flowers of the proof of this supernatural event. And the bishop didn't even look at the flowers. He just looked at the farmer. because on his tilma was a perfect basically like symbol of the apparition that appeared on his telma wow um which has you know it's a famous uh image that people have seen now if you search

our lady at guadalupe you'll see it and it's a common tattoo or things that people specifically mexican people will put on uh their cars or have it in their homes framed and things like that um and that image is effectively like a like graphic from that event that they've examined it and they don't see brushstrokes so they have concluded that it's not really painted and that the paint that they used at the time couldn't have held up in color to now and that the tilma is made out of like a specific type of like plant fiber and that those plant fibers typically break down within like 50 to 80 years and this plant fiber hasn't broken down wow um they point to uh her appearance is sort of ethnically ambiguous

which is uncommon for the time um interesting typically people of the location will you know depict things as they are. So if it's white people in the group, they'll depict things as whiter, if it's black people in the group, they'll depict them as darker skin. But this Marian apparition is specifically ethnically ambiguous. And some people attribute that within Catholic tradition as sort of a indicator to the people that all people are welcome within the church. Yeah.

And that you have, you know, indigenous, you know, Aztec Mexicans, Aztecas that converted. And then you have like Hispanic, you know, Spanish immigrants that go to Mexico that also convert and that all these people are now a part of this one uniform faith because of the ambiguity of her ethnicity People point to like her robe. They suggest that the star is present on her robe on the actual telma are precisely in the way that the earth's constellation was over that spot in Mexico on that exact day, but not from the ground to the sky that is actually inverse from beyond the star or to Earth. Interesting. And people always point to that fact. And then other types of like religious

things. She's standing effectively on like a half moon or like a crescent. And people point to that is like this idea that sort of stepping on like the like the notion of like Satan. Because like as it's represented in like that half moon is another like Catholic tradition. I'm not exactly sure. But there was a lot of details. I remember as a kid reading about it being like, oh, this is kind of a cool sort of miraculous story. And then I went to go see it when I was in. Mexico a year or two ago. Yeah. Which is kind of like a cool experience.

But yeah, that was one that I was drawn to as a kid that I'm curious if that fits into your framework, you know, as not so much religious experiences. I guess you wouldn't really consider them purely religious in your eyes. Is that fair to say, you would see them more as like a supernatural event that fits under the umbrella of paranormal phenomena. Well, I think it's kind of, in some ways it's kind of both. Thanks for, thanks for sharing that. And it's a great case.

And it's interesting that there are elements, you know, know, and this holds true in so many situations where the people have an intrinsic understanding that, like, the, the apparition itself is imbued or composed of iconography, right? The idea that the ethnic ambiguity of the being itself could be indicative of a message, that's fascinating, right? Yeah. And then that, like, say, like, the constellation aspect that it could be from space.

So there's this kind of like intergalactic or like, you know, at least universal element to it that involves space that still kind of is bound into this religious. There's other details of the constellation that like the Leo, like the constellation Leo, is appearing directly over her womb. Yeah. So you can't see it in the actual apparition on the telma because it's just sort of on her rope. Yeah. But if you're able to sort of triangulate all the other star positions, you can see. the whole constellation and the Leo is behind her, but it basically overlaps perfectly on her womb. And so people point to that as, you know, Christ being, you know, the Leo and that type of Catholic

symbology. So there's a lot of like interesting details that people point out. Some people believe you can see, uh, the vision of Juan Diego in the eye of the apparition. So if you were to microscopically zoom in on Mary's eye, you can actually see the farmer looking at her. Yep. Which people point to as like another interesting detail that people wouldn't, people even would say, like if it is an art piece, if it was done by an artist, it is miraculously artistic. That's wonderful. So it's just an interesting thing, like, you know, whether it's supernatural or natural, either way, it's a bit of an interesting piece of history. Yeah, and or maybe it's just, there's, you know, getting to a fundamental understanding that our understanding of nature is just, is incomplete, which it almost surely is.

You know what I mean? Yeah. And so the cases that are most interesting to me are the ones where there's multiple people. that can confirm. Yeah. You know, like one individual person having individual experience. Like we've heard of night terrors before. Absolutely.

Or one person would be like, I was sleeping in bed and I woke up and I saw this dark, you know, figure that then sat on my chest and I couldn't breathe. Yeah. And then I, you know, passed out or I went back to sleep and then I woke up and it was gone. Yep. And I think most people kind of hear those situations and they sort of explain them as, you know, some sort of like subconscious experience that is in your head that you saw this thing and anxiety and it laid on you, but it didn't actually happen.

Yeah. And it's easy to sort of dispel those things because it's an individual, one person who's reporting a story. Sure. Just as a side note, those types of stories, do you think that those are the way psychiatrists describe them as figments of imagination, or do you think that there perhaps is some type of supernatural event happening there? I mean, I think that people can have, like, regular night terrors and have and hallucinate

and or have some carryover from the dream life into their waking life. Maybe particularly if they're under the influence of something or maybe if they have a really high fever. Sometimes people see things when they have super high fevers that may or may not be there, you know. And at the same time, there does seem to be like a big overlap. And like one area that's really interesting

is that people that report being able to, that have had out-of-body experiences, either because they had a near-death situation and it seemed like their spirit or their consciousness left their body. Like, however you want to frame that. You know, and then there are other people that report being able to, you know,

travel with their consciousness outside of their body regularly, right? You know, through meditation practice or however, right? And interestingly, when people have report night terrors and or sleep paralysis, there's often like a vibratory feeling and sometimes people report certain like buzzing sounds or like pitches. And interestingly, people that are really into that kind of OBE culture, that out-of-body experience culture, they'll often also report similar sounds and similar feelings in their body state before they,

before some aspect of their consciousness supposedly leaves them. body, right? I'm not super well-versed in that stuff myself from an experiential angle, but I've known enough people that have that have had situations like that, and I believe them, that there's something to it. I think the consciousness can leave the body somehow. I don't know why. I think it's just an incomplete understanding of what our awareness really is. Yeah, what consciousness really is at its core. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, I think it's really fascinating that when people report being able to leave their body with their consciousness, that sometimes they report like seeing weird beings in that quote unquote astral state or whatever that kind of

overlapping layer of the consciousness field or whatever, however you want to frame that, you know? And that's one of the problems with just having these conversations in general and it's good that we're having this conversation. It's fantastic is that, you know, like the conversation needs to open up and partially because people get really squeamish about these terms, right? If you say like, oh, we don't, maybe we don't know where our mind really is. You know what I mean? Maybe we don't have a complete understanding of our consciousness.

Most people would agree on that, you know, I think a lot of people would anyway. And then, but once you say like, oh, astral travel or something like that and it's, ooh, you know, people have, you know, squeamish understandings of, like, hippie culture or like this or something that or something like that. But, you know, these are, these are, you know, reports like these go back. far beyond, you know, hippie culture and far beyond any situation like that. And they're reported by people that, you know, have no understanding of like, of like Robert Monroe or some of these like pioneer figures within that culture or something like that. Now, skeptics will point out that, you know, so many of these reports will happen before camera phones. Sure. And they'll say, you know, everyone's got a blurry photo of a UFO, but then as soon as everyone gets camera phones, now we can't

get an accurate picture. And they'll be like, you know, even on 9-11, they were able to coincidentally film the tower, you know, the first plane hitting the tower just by happenstance, just because there's enough cameras around. Yeah. Even before camera phones. Yep. So why is it that these types of phenomena have not been documented more in the age of, you

know, high quality 4K, you know, cameras in everyone's pockets? Well, that's a very good question. I think there's probably more footage. out there than we think there is. But it's, but because of the wonders of like, of CGI and Photoshop and things like this, people don't believe anything that they see anymore. Unless it has, like, impeccable credentials. So there's a bunch of UFO videos out there.

And maybe some of them are real, but like everybody, I don't know, on any comments, right, you see on it, blah, it's bullshit. Yeah. It's a balloon. Like, whatever, whatever they want to say that it is. And it's probably true that, like, 99% percent. percent of that is. But as people say, like, you only need one white crow to prove that not all crows are black. Right. Right. So, you know, I, I, on top of that, there are people like

Ryan Graves, David Traver, you know, a lot of well-intentioned, you know, ex-military and stuff like that that talk about how one of the reasons why we have been getting these leaks of UFO videos and stuff like this is because of an, an upgraded sensor system. that got put on to recent craft, right? And Ryan Graves, I think it was called the PGA-79, I think, was the name of the system. I'm sorry, Ryan, if I screwed that up. But it was an upgrade that they did a few years ago. And then all of a sudden, they started seeing stuff all over the place, right?

And even in kind of the recent Senate hearing that happened with Kristen Gillibrand and a guy Sean Kirkpatrick from the Arrow office, the new Pentagon office, studying UAPs, you know, they were talking about how recent upgrades in the technology were kind of necessary, but that that's really highlighted the problem of UAP. You know what I mean? And so there's a little bit of kind of congressional speak for the there's a there maybe, right? Right.

But, and in fact that just the office exists in general. But, you know, according to people like Ryan, the upgrade in the system really did make a situation where, you know, there is a lot more evidence. but unfortunately a lot of it has been over classified because in part people in the military say like oh well we don't want anybody to know what our true capabilities are that's understandable but there there needs to be a way to kind of like dumb down this footage and get it out there to people surely and you know there are other people like chris millen who we talked about earlier who initially leaked those those cockpit videos he talks all the time about you know a

sensor system called the space fence that basically has domain awareness of like low orbit. And he keeps mentioning it without kind of going too far because he can't talk about confidential programs and things like this. But he keeps kind of hinting at the idea that that space fence and detection systems like it have been tracking things going in and out of orbit or like from space down to the planet or vice versa, right? So in a way, yeah, the 4K thing is strange. The fact that we have the camera phones,

you would think that you'd be seeing more documentation. And maybe there is. And at the same time, there is a lot of this other sensor data that people are trying to hold on to and people keep mentioning, right? And so I'm hopeful, and from what I've heard from various,

folks like Chris and like Ryan, there's a high level of confidence that some of this material is going to be seen by the public soon and or that people are going to be hearing from whistleblowers that have worked in confidential programs that have been studying this issue, that have been paid by the military or by defense contractors to really tackle this issue. And that some of those people have already testified, not just a, the Arrow office and the Pentagon, but have also privately testified to congressional committees and have also that have given testimony to independent journalists like James Fox. And so, you know, there are in some ways there are some contingency plans for some of these

whistleblowers, which is quite smart, that, you know, a lot of people don't trust the Pentagon. A lot of people don't trust Congress. But, you know, if these people are kind of like putting their ducks in a row to talk to the right amount of people and across a range of backgrounds, then it seems like some of that information is going to be coming out pretty soon. And I'm very hopeful about that. Would you consider that like disclosure when people talk about the disclosure? Yeah. Yeah. Like how long do you think until that moment when, you know, the public is made aware, like, hey, there is a confirmation that there is, you know, extraterrestrial?

real non-human life. Yeah. I mean, I think that there's, that it's very, very likely that we're going to have significant revelations about that within the next, within the next year, within the next, like, 365 days, given what some of these whistleblowers have been talking about, specifically with regard to the idea of recovered craft by a non-human species, right? that like that there is in possession by some defense contractor out there or multiple material that was recovered like a Roswell situation that was obviously not human civilization

right and so I am aware that some of these whistleblowers that have talked to the arrow office that have talked to congressional committees that have talked to people like Kirsten Gillibrand who recently did a public hearing on UAP issues just a few weeks ago, that these people have heard these stories, from people that aren't just ex-military witnesses, but are people that were actually, that were tasked with dealing with components or objects that were recovered from these situations.

And what are the most compelling cases of, you know, craft recovery that you think would be coming out? Oh, sure. Okay. So one of the most compelling ones, that I can think about right now that has pretty good documentation around it is the 1996 Virginia Brazil case.

James Fox, a director, he's a friend of mine. He was on Rogan just a couple weeks ago talking in part about this case and a bunch of other cases in general. 1996, Virginia, Brazil, there was people reported seeing a capsule-shaped craft that appeared to be,

that appeared to have like a gaping hole in it, that it was somehow, that it was somehow fractured, this craft, is flying low. And then later, several different groups of people saw two, at least two different humanoid, somewhat humanoid, I mean bipedal. They weren't grays. They were actually red, apparently, about four feet tall. And, um, and then they had strange protrusions on their head. all right and they smelled like sulfur okay and one of them appeared like was in this yard that James went and documented he did a movie about this case called moment of contact three I think it was three or four girls saw this like creature kind of like hiding in a yard and then another one was seen

blocks away and as as that happened a seemingly U.S. Air Force plane. Like people were starting there like over the course of this day like people reporting like this craft and stuff like this all of a sudden this huge US Air Force plane flies into the local airport without announcing itself. It just lands and there's a hubbub about that and and people that were working at the airport at the time reported that this happened, right? Military with like no markings get off.

and there's like a crash retrieval process. Like apparently that craft went down somewhere and was, and at least part of it was loaded onto this huge, like cargo USAF plane, right? At the same time, like this other guy apparently handled one of the beings, right? And he got scratched in the process.

And the being was, one of these beings was apparently apprehended and taken to a local hospital in a body bag while it was apparently maybe still alive. X-rays were done of it at the hospital with it in this body bag. The guy who tried to handle this creature said it was kind of wet got a scratch and weirdly a couple weeks later died of. of like a crazy rare, like horrible, like body, like, um, uh, this horrible, horrible infection that basically created like gaping wounds in his body, right? Um, that people hadn't seen the, the, the pathologists from that case have gone on record talking about this guy. Like there's, there's, there are tons of military witnesses from that town that have

gone on record to say like, yeah, this actually happened. there's apparently like at least 30 seconds of video footage that one of the doctors took of the being like in the hospital maybe um like James Fox has been like working on getting every angle of this case that he can um but he's he's gotten so much great material on this case and a lot of people thought that it was that it was BS for years but it just kind of kept coming up and I think that there's you know partially at some bias against you know, maybe like South American culture or something like that. People were like, ah, you know, it's a story or something like that. It didn't really happen. I don't know why that was there at the time of the case. But over the course of years, like the cases only gain more ground as people have gotten older, as people have gotten closer to death that were like high level officials at the time

that don't have as much to lose anymore, I guess. Wow. Yeah. So now a lot of those stories are coming up from the people that were there. Absolutely. Wow. And so, you know, James has been pursuing that case quite a lot. And, you know, there does seem to be a there there there. And other journalists are starting to look into the case as well. You keep saying that there seems to be a there there there. Yeah. What do you mean by that? That first couple times I thought you were just stuttered or something. Yeah, yeah. No, that there's a there that there's a fundamental reality to that situation. Yeah. You know. And because in some of these cases, like I say, I have the experiences of what happened to me.

Other people have the experiences of what happened to them. I'm not exactly sure, like the fundamental, like what layer of, like, where do they come from? Like, what do they do in date of day life? Why? Why? I continue to have tons of questions and some of these questions will probably not get answered in any of our lifetimes.

But like, but I still, and so I try to listen to it with an open mind. and also recognize that some of these situations, some of these stories are probably fake. Some of them are probably disinformation. Some of them are just lore, you know. Do you feel frustrated that there's a cover-up of certain prominent cases that would give you more personal closure to the events that happened to you?

That's a great question. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, I heard, and this pisses me off to this day, and it will continue to piss me off, that there's that, you know, I won't, mention who this person is but another person that is kind of a significant person in the field who does not talk about their personal experiences with nonhumanities but as a significant figure for other reasons has a great professional career and things like this was told by somebody

who is part of this kind of slow drip disclosure campaign right was was told like you know we're going to, well, eventually, you know, people are going to find out, you know, we're going to say that there's, you know, non-human entities out there, that there are other civilizations out there. We're eventually, we're going to talk about the craft. We're going to have to talk about the craft. But we're not, like, like, we're going to do our damnedest to not acknowledge the abduction issue.

And, and this person was livid. Of course. I was livid when I heard about it. And like there are a lot of people that want to make sure that that doesn't come to play, right? That those people, that those situations do need to get acknowledged. You know, there's, I understand that this situation is emasculating to folks like the military for all sorts of different reasons. Like they don't have the coolest toys in the world, right? Or the universe.

They, they are, you know, that we're relatively rudimentary when you come up against something that doesn't have any sense of, doesn't have. obvious sense of propulsion and can can go, you know, thousands and thousands of miles per hour and stop on a dime and turn around and things like that. We don't have that yet. We seemingly don't have that yet, right? So, you know, there's, I understand the masculation of that or like the idea of kind of inferiority. And even that they're willing to kind of say like, oh, we can't quite protect people as much as we thought we could. But there's, there seems to be some other layer here where there's where that non-acknowledgment gets at like a much and it's understandable. I understand why people would would not want to acknowledge that because, you know,

what will happen when people find out like, oh yeah, you know, you can walk your doors, but it doesn't necessarily do anything. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It could spur of social chaos if people feel like at any moment they could be pulled out of their

windows. Exactly. And yeah, I can see why, you know, if there is a confidence in that there's going to be a disclosure, we're not going to bring up the hostility part, especially if we can't do anything about it. Right. Because, I don't know, would you say that there's a fear and there's a hostility to you being, you know, probed and things like that? Is there a fear and hostility for me? Like, do you feel like it was a hostile situation? Like, what happened to you?

I felt like it was, I was terrified of it. And like, you know, looking back on it, maybe there was, it is like the sea turtle analogy where it's like, you know, just some marking program. And I can conceptualize it on that, on that scope. I'm not exactly certain that these beings were like, oh, let's just, let's just fuck with the humans. It'll be fun. Yeah. Let's just go out. And it's like cow tipping or something.

Like, I don't think that that's exactly what's happening. I think these, these beings were like doing a job, that they were doing a task. and that like me being super terrified and it feeling like kidnapping, it feeling like assault in some ways and it feeling abusive, you know, in many different ways.

Does, you know, that that is kind of enough. Do you know what I mean? And there's the whole concept of just like not asking for permission. You know? And that is completely understood, you know,

in like, the culture of sex and like many different situations like you always have to ask the other person's permission yeah consent is consent is super important and so you know there's so many different layers to these situations where where you know regardless of what the end goal is here that there's some basic situation there there's some basic levels of trust that weren't necessarily that aren't established in a situation like that has it changed your perspective as far as like how you view humans interacting with other animals? Yeah.

That's a great question. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Because, you know, we, look at how we treat animals around us. We just, we act like we have dominion over everything, right?

Yeah. We go fishing. Yeah. We eat it, which that's one thing. Then it's just dead. Or we, you know,

kind of take some pictures with it, throw it back. Yeah. And what does it do when it goes back to it's like, you don't believe what just happened.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Which is like a funny concept to think about, but if we're, if you're suggesting that there's some, type of like expanded idea of intelligence and we're more intelligent than fish and let's say

there's something more intelligent than us that is effectively abducting or fishing with us. You know, that behavior and that consent that you talked about is the consent is the important feature and does that consent, you know, apply to all living things? Yeah. If we don't like it happening to us, should we do it to other people? It's interesting. Well, yeah. And like, you know, like we were talking about before we got on camera, like what is going to

to happen eventually with AI, like both in terms of and other kinds of forms of detection. Like are, you know, is it going to be that like eventually, you know, AI systems are better able to correlate these data points than we are and is able to find more. But like people are already working on with a like trying to train AI to decipher like communication like bird song or like communication with animal species and stuff like that's, right? Well, what if that's successful, right? What if all of a sudden it's like, oh, I can understand what my dog is?

say. We can understand what the birds. Are we going to then ask for permission from all these things before we start doing stuff? Yeah, it really impacts the fabric of how we interact with other species. 100%. Now, I also want to ask about the situations that you've had in Greenpoint here in New York. Sure. And that's interesting to me because your girlfriend at that time, is that your current girlfriend or is that an does a ex. No, that's next. That your, that your girlfriend at that time seems to be slightly more accommodating than your ex-wife. Right. That when that event happened with her, your ex-wife was like, shut down, we're not talking about it. Yep.

What were the events that happened at the Greenpoint Place? And how did your girlfriend react to it in that time? Well, there was, there would be situations where I'd wake up and I was, I would be in the act of being kind of like, like, either like, some form of a medical procedure going on seemingly. like me and like a very strange room that didn't have any corners to it. That white room again. Yeah, kind of like, it's similar to that room. Was it the same room or was it different?

That was a different room. Like different room entirely. And but like waking up and having a procedure done or I would be waking up and I know it sounds strange, but I would seemingly be like levitating through. a room towards like the back window of that apartment right that railroad apartment and like I I remember wanting to think that it was a dream I remember but you know after my girlfriend started reacting to it and being like maybe we should just move the bed into a different room maybe then it won't happen what was her reaction in that moment like you're now levitating effectively floating

through a room does she see you she I mean She, I don't remember, like, so long ago, I don't remember all the details of, like, what she can recall. And, like, you know, I, like, these days, I wouldn't mind, like, calling her up enough time has passed, but I haven't done it yet. Sure. I'd be curious to hear what she can recall of it now. But at the time, she would speak really obliquely about it, you know? She was like, yeah, that was a weird, that was weird what happened. That was really weird.

And like I didn't really want to be super explicit about what would happen either. But she would be around when stuff, when situations like what that would happen. I remember waking up and having a situation like that happened and and screaming to her. You know what I mean? Screaming her name. Situations where I would wake up and like in a different state than when I went to bed. Like or both of us like.

like waking up with my clothes on again or like waking up uh waking up in a different like in a different way than than i normally would right and then her kind of being like it happened again and yeah i know and um like what are we going to do about this did she ever report you like not being in bed yeah yeah like she would wake like she would wake up the next morning and be gone yeah and she would would be like, where'd you go? Yeah. And you're like, what do you mean?

I didn't go anywhere. Yeah. Yeah, there were situations that I didn't quite recall. And there, and that she wasn't the only person that would report this where, where, um, I wouldn't remember like a situation. And again, I don't know if that's trauma. I don't know if that's just, you know, something that the beings could do, you know, probably maybe it's both, you know.

It's widely reported on that people have patchy memories of these situations happening. I can totally. attest of that. And I, you know, and that aspect is also scary, right? Because what does that, what does that really mean? Right. And like what, and if somebody is like, if it's possible that somebody is like taking your memories away from you.

Right? Like, that's wild technology. Yeah, that's wild technology. It doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility even for within our culture. Like, it's something to be talked about. in many different ways. But, you know, like, there's, that's such a breach, you know, the idea that you can't even have ownership over your own memories.

Yeah. That those could be taken away from you. It's, you know, there's, there's so many levels where it's not just, yeah, they're weird beings and this and that, and this and that. And it's not just the advanced technology, which seems indistinguishable from magic, like being able to levitate beings. What is theoretically possible, it's called quantum tunneling, the idea that you could pass matter through other matter by by kind of like vibrating in such a way that you kind

of like shift like, I, you know, shift like, I don't know, your molecules or something like that so that, you know, the matter can just, you know, pass through itself, right? This is, it's, it's wild and it's hard to even to even conceptualize how some of the stuff is possible. But then, you know, there's, there are so many other layers to it. People talk about telepathic exchanges, right? People, like, there's so much to like, just thinking about, like, what does that mean for consciousness? What does that mean for how, if, if they can communicate with us telepathically in a very straightforward way, why aren't they doing it to make their intentions better known? If they can do that, then why, then why does there, why is there such

secrecy around things in general. Yeah, I think that's a valid question. I'm always curious, like, what is the intention of a non-human being being so secretive about their presence? Like, you know, when Darwin goes to the Galapagos to go examine turtles, he just walks on the beach and looks at him. Yep. And they look at him and they go, oh, there's a, you know, ape, monkey human thing standing

right next to us. And there's a, it's almost confrontational. It's like, we're going to look at you. I'm going to write down what I saw. it takes some pictures of you. I'm going to, you know, maybe grab one of you and flip you over and examine your markings. But, like, it's a very direct experience. Yes.

And it seems like the common discourse is suggesting that when non-human beings come to Earth, they're observing us in a very, like, secretive, surreptitious way. And I don't really know why they would be so secretive when we aren't. Right. I mean, some people even suggest that, like, oh, they know that we're not, that we as a culture aren't ready for them yet. Mm-hmm. That might be the case.

you know, it might also be like, you know, how much would that screw with whatever medical experiments or, you know, tracking programs they're doing? Right. To make it for one way. Right. And at the same time, there's, you know, there are people like some of these whistleblower types that say that, like, people that have some of these experiencers that have had situations like this have been secretly tracked for decades. And secretly tracked by some of these. programs, right? And, you know, I don't know the exact truth of that, you know, like I, I'm not sure, you know. Do you feel like you have PTSD from your experiences? Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of people do. And it was something, it, it took a lot of work and it continues to take a lot of work. I mean, just doing this is part of the work. And it's, it's, in some ways, it's, it's brave. Like, I'm aware of that.

some ways it's really dumb because it really it really puts me in a category in a very specific way and it's partly why like you might not have even necessarily known that these experiences happened to me before I showed up in the room today no I didn't because I don't I don't talk about them very often right but you know and people know me more as like a guy that knows about this stuff and talks to other experiencers and it's because I'm not I I I choose to not have this be the headline right you know what I mean and when this is posted if it's like I saw a fucking aliens. Like, like, it'll make, it'll make a piece of my soul die.

Sure. Yeah, that makes sense. I would rather not have that. Be the main thing, of course. I wouldn't like that. Yeah. Now, when you meet with other experiencers, is there a immediate connection where you're like, oh, we had the same thing?

And are they describing details to you that you've never told anyone? Yeah. And what are those experiences? Like, are those intense? Yeah. They're really, they can be really, really intense. because there are, there, there's, there's overlap with experiencers in general. Like if I'm talking to somebody who also grew up in a haunted house or something like that

or what people think of as a haunted house, there's a level of connection there. And, but those experiences seem to be a little bit more universal among cultures. I mean, going back thousands and thousands of years, who hasn't heard a ghost story that, that is pretty chilling at one point or another, right? Sure. And that is, can, there's a level of connection that can happen there that is, that is, that is, that is really amazing. And being able to talk through the stigma,

being able to talk through the high strangeness of these situations, the details, it's amazing. And there are some people that I've talked to that are seemingly from the very same, whatever medical or pull-out program or however you want to think of that, that seem to be from the exact same situation,

you know, with the exact, with the similar beings doing the same stuff. men and women. And I've met them over the last years. And it, like, there are a couple of people that I know that are strongly associated with, like, the John Mack Institute and things like that, that still to this day get kind of shook to their core when they, when all of a sudden they hear a detail that they haven't mentioned for years

or haven't thought about for years. That's true for me. And I've seen it be true for other people. And it's, you know, it's. I think one of the reasons why people connect this to spirituality and religion so much is because when something like that happens and you hear a detail like that that takes you back like 35 years or whatever, yeah, you want to meditate, man. You know what I mean? You need to find like peace. Yeah. Because they're like we're living in a really wild culture. You know what I mean? You know,

we're living in really extraordinary times. And there's even more extraordinary stuff happening that people, like some people aren't quite ready to talk about yet. Religious people probably would hear your story and say, oh, you're being attacked by demons, that there's a negative demonic force from the devil. Yeah.

That is interfacing with you for some reason. What are your thoughts as to those claims? Do you think that can fit in the framework of how you believe these things to work? I think there are probably, I mean, like, I don't doubt that there are probably malicious, malicious intelligences that somehow overlap with our lives. You know what I mean? Like that poltergeist stuff. That's weird.

You know what I mean? People report like shadow beings and stuff like that. And that, those seem malicious. I don't know whether they're demons. I don't know if they're just like bored, discarnant souls that like fucking with people. Like, I'm not sure. You know what I mean? but there does seem to be some fundamental reality in some ways to that stuff, you know,

and they seem to enjoy like getting, like provoking people. Right. And like, so there's a balance point there where it's like if the, if like stuff like that really happens to people and I think it does, and then that person becomes mentally unwell from that situation, I can understand from a percept, like from a professional psychiatry standpoint or psychology counseling standpoint, how if you came into that 30 years into somebody holding a secret that's that hardcore,

how it would be really hard to untangle that pile of cables. You know what I mean? Yeah. I get that. But I think we need to go there and we need to, and people, there are certain folks that are being brave about these topics. Yeah.

Because, you know, there are a lot of, there are a lot of people out there that could be helped. And there are people, super high functioning people that I know that like, it's the biggest secret of their lives, but then they're also like totally killing it in their profession, you know what I mean? Like super, super high level people.

Yeah. And it's like what like, but not everybody operates like that. Yeah, and I'm sure you post get messages on Twitter all the time of people with prominent careers and followings. And you mentioned people within the group that are CEOs of Fortune 500, companies that are like, hey, I've never told anyone this. Sure. Yeah. And I need to talk to you about this because I had the same thing happen.

A hundred percent. Like once a week? Yeah, like sometimes every day, you know, like yeah, there's, there's people all the time. I mean, for the experiencer group, there's, there's an average of five to ten people joining per week. Those are people that join. Those aren't just people that reach out. The people that reach out is like way more than that. And, you know, I got an email. an hour and a half before I came here today. That was a forward from a prominent journalist who is like this person needs help. Like what can we do for this person? Wow.

And that happens all the time. And like, thank God that there's more, or thank whoever, think what universal spirit, whatever deity or spirit you want to talk to, the consciousness field, whatever. Like, thank goodness that there's. that there are more people out there that are willing to take this on. Because it's going to take everybody. Do you think there's a possibility of like this Project Blue Beam, Blue Beam idea? Oh. Right.

Yeah. You know, I mean, project. I know you got to run. I don't want to keep you too long. Yeah. Project Blue Beam is really fascinating. So there's this idea. There's this, you know, I don't know about any kind of fundamental reality to this.

There's, there's, this is an old piece of lore that eventually, the powers that be, you know, military contractors, whoever, the same kind of people that were behind the cover up, the same kind of people that, you know, ran Project Blue Book to make a disinformation campaign to kind of like make all this look like the province of crazy people, right? That eventually to scare the populace that like imaginary flying saucers or imaginary non-humanities and things like that, using holographic technology would be utilized to basically scare people into submission in some ways, right? That's kind of like the core idea behind Project Bluebeam, as I understand it, or as I've kind of received the lore of that. And like, it sounds

possible. I mean, like, you know, I think that it's seen, it sounds possible as what it would be, which is like a form of psychological operations and disinformation campaign. And that has been, a rife part of of paranormal and especially UFO stuff baked in since the beginning. You know, there's always been an element where where secret technology has been hidden, you know, Area 51, which, you know, is such a key piece of lore for UFO encounters, was also a testing field for advanced experimental craft, right? And so, you know, there's definitely a layover there where like how much of the UFO thing is real in regard to Area 51 and how much of that was a convenient cover-up

so that people could cover up experimental aircraft that might look weird or have strange behavioral characteristics that are unlike normal airplanes. Right. Right. And so, you know, could something like Project Blue Beam happen? Sure. You know, does that mean that that accounts for the whole human history

of anomalous experiences? No. Yeah, both things could be true. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, this was awesome. I really appreciate you sharing your story and your experiences. And I know I could even feel while we were discussing that there was some difficulty sort of like reminiscing and explaining all the details.

Yeah. I appreciate you going there and chatting with me about it. Thanks, man. Again, that was not my intention to get into that. Oh, I wasn't mine. Believe me, it wasn't mine either. But it's interesting that we stumbled into that. This is the first time I've had a conversation like this.

Cool. So, yeah, it was definitely enlightening and kind of, yeah, I don't know. I don't really know what to think. I'll be honest. I completely understand, man. And I don't ask, I mean, to anybody out there, like, I don't need people to believe me. Like, I don't need people to believe me. But if you have somebody in your family, in your loved one, a friend that comes to you

and is seemingly coming from an honest place about having any situation like this, I just ask that you try to be open with them, you know. People can think whatever they want about me. But if you can, if people out there can just be. good to the people around them, then this will have been for a good reason. And maybe they can check out your group. What's it called again? The Experiancer group.

Yep. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for the conversation. I really appreciate it. Let's do this again. And we'll go even deeper. I know you got to run. Oh, yeah, for sure.

Yeah, there's so much to talk about it. Yeah, I know. Well, thank you again for coming on, man. I really appreciate you. Let's do it again. Wonderful. We'll do.