Camp Gagnon - UFO Expert On Military Whistleblower & His Alien Encounters

Episode Date: June 27, 2023

Today we have James Iandoli, UFO researcher and creator of the channel Engaging The Phenomena. Today he talks with me about using CE5 to communicate with non-human intelligence, how he saw his first spacecraft, and all the UFO literature surrounding the military Whistleblower David Grusch. WELCOME TO CAMPTHANK YOU KIDSUPER STUDIOS FOR MAKING THIS POSSIBLEThank you to our sponsorsMorgan & Morgan forthepeople(dot)com/gagnonFreeze Pipe - Best Vases in the game at thefreezepipe(dot)com Promo ...

I look up and there's a hexagon-shaped metal craft right above the tree. So it's got to be like 80 feet in the air. This is low hum. It's like, boom. I'm like freaking out. I'm looking up. The craft is just slowly moving. And it disappears and instantaneously reappears like a thousand feet away.

And there's two other crafts there with it. So there's three crafts slowly just moving. At this point, I'm really like questioning, did I just hit my head so hard? And I'm hallucinating this. I run inside. My family is there and I say, guys, you got to come outside. They said why. I said, they're here. So two of my family members come outside.

And what are they saying to you as you're standing there? They're amazed. The way that the whole thing ended was one of them disappeared. So there's now two of these UFOs with the lights spinning around. They're coming towards each other like this. And I'm thinking my head like, holy shit, they're going to crash. They're coming towards each other and the lights are spinning. And as soon as they're about to make contact and touch into each other, they just both banished.

The sky is completely clear and it's over. And I'm just like mindblown. This is James Iandol. He's a leading UFO researcher who's had thousands of encounters of the fifth kind. Today, he explains his story of personal experiences interfacing with UFOs. He explains the CIA's covert operations dealing with remote viewing and non-human intelligence and reveals his personal conversations with former military personnel who have had direct contact with extraterrestrial spacecraft.

This combo was absolutely fascinating and James does an excellent job explaining to me, who knows nothing about this, everything I needed to know. So I hope you enjoy it just as much as I did. Welcome to camp. Do aliens exist? And can you explain to me your personal experience with non-human intelligence? Yeah. So, I mean, we say alien and our brain automatically jumps to what an alien is.

Most people think an alien is an extraterrestrial life form because that's what is in our media. That's what's in our movies. And, you know, that might not necessarily be the case when, you know, even again, you say UFO. people automatically make the association to aliens. Mm-hmm. Right. So it's this kind of like if you're doing a viphasana meditation, observation of tracking how your brain is interpreting what these words mean. You know, what are we mean by when we say alien?

So for, you know, I'm not trying to be like so drawn out about it. But I think this is a really important point. is because when we say alien, everybody is automatically assuming extraterrestrial. And non-human intelligence, especially those that are involved or represent the UFO subject, might not necessarily be extraterrestrials. They could be interdimensional, extraditional, or they could be something that we don't have concepts for. So we don't even have the proper words or terminologies to create the concept that is the direct correlation of, what are, you know, UFOs and aliens and anomalous phenomena.

Yeah. So, you know, do I think that humans are being engaged by non-human intelligence? Absolutely. As, you know, as we understand it, right? One of my friends exo-acadamian would say non-conventional human intelligence, because if they happen to be humans that are time traveling from the future or distant past or what have you, they are kind of humans in a way. Right.

Yeah. Just because they're not in this time frame or whatever else. If they're wormhole, however you want to explain, it's not that they're less human. They're just not of our time. Right. And so we would be aliens to people 2,000 years ago. Right. Even though we're all human.

Right. But I ask you that question intentionally because I think that most people think in sort of like a binary modality of, you know, are there great beings on other planets or not? And within the UAP, UFO anomalous community, I understand there's a lot of nuance when it comes to that question. and that different people have different schools of thought when it comes to, you know, are these interdimensional beings? Are they time travelers? Are they humans from a different planet that are coming over, all that kind of stuff? So I'm curious in your, do you have like a theory as far as like how you would try to think about aliens? That's unlike what Hollywood portrays it to be. I mean, there's there, if you dig deep into the research, there's people who have covered almost

every type of theory you can imagine. You know, and even, even one, just to give an example, is it's a cryptotterrestrial or ultra-terrestrial theory, which is actually saying, you know, these are actually entities that have lived on Earth for a long time and are highly advanced, but they live hidden to us. And they try to pose themselves as extraterrestrial. So, you know, as a deception, so we won't find them. And Mack Tani is before he passed away, wrote a book on that.

So what are some of the things? theories that you think are most interesting to you. Obviously, I don't think any one person has a singular answer where they say, this is what it is, this is what everyone's experiencing, and this is the answer to all of our questions. But I know there's a lot of different theories. So are there a couple that you think are interesting, a couple that you think are kind of silly that you don't necessarily subscribe to? So I'm going to contradict myself a little bit here. Okay. Because I'm going to say what we call the extraterrestrial hypothesis, the ETH, is actually highly probable, right? And what is this? So the extra-stressural hypothesis is that, yeah, aliens are from outer space somewhere, and they're using super advanced technology if they're 1,000 or 10,000 or a million years ahead of us, and they're going from here to there.

That's become unpopular because it's not sexy anymore. You know, in the 50s, it was like really sexy, right? Like, oh, my God, they're from Mars. Space travel. Then they were from farther away. Yeah, nebulous reticuli or something like that. Is it a reticuli? And, I mean, now it's everything, octuris and pleases.

and all that. Yeah. So I actually, I don't find that far-fetched at all. So I, you know, I think that's highly probable that some, some of what we call UFOs and UAP are,

you know, probably extraterrestrial in some way, shape or form. But I, personally, I really like what you can call, like an extra-dimensional hypothesis. You know,

entities that, are able to not even able to their nature transcends space time as we know it like 3D and even time and they're able to interact with us in our

reality even though they're coming from what I guess people would say like a higher frequency I don't understand that's what I'm saying it's like beyond what I can even comprehend right would this be similar to like a multiverse or maybe like an alternate reality that it's not even it's within our

within our reality, it's just phasing faster, right? Like higher frequency, vibration, whatever you call it. So we just don't, we're not built to perceive it, right? But they can still step down and interface with us through technology. Right. You know, and that's, again, you know, I'm kind of getting out of my league to try to explain something like that. But I think it's highly fascinating. And if you look at all the different types of things that, you know, UFOs and UAP demonstrate,

straight, it does seem like they are able to kind of bend our reality in different ways that we can't explain. So, right. And either way, they have a, it would seem that UFO intelligence or non-human intelligence has a way to manipulate our reality and even our consciousness and, you know, probably by matter of fact, because they are operating at a higher level. Now, correct me if I'm wrong. But I feel like the reason you are drawn to that sort of explanation,

maybe that altered reality explanation is due to your own personal experiences, which is a very interesting piece of this that I'm excited to hear about. Would you mind explaining to me in all the detail how you have started to experience these sort of phenomena and how you're continuing to sort of like create situations where you're able to continue the experience? Right. Okay. So, you know, that's going to go back to, even when I was a kid. And, you know, when I was a young kid, I had different types of what we can call metaphysical experiences.

And the first, I guess you can say interaction with a non-human intelligence was when I was a kid. And this happened several times. You know, I'm in my bed late at night and I hear, it's almost like chat, like random chattering. right i can't kind of decipher what it's saying at first and but i hear it in my mind and i'm like you know getting up looking kind of like what's going on like is there something in the room with me and roughly how old do you five six okay and all of a sudden i see kind of like um an entity that looks like a shadow but it's it's it's glistening a little and it's moving and it's moving it's moving as it's moving it's moving it's like a

collapsing into like a dark orb and as I see it the first thing I hear is he can see us and there were three of these and when I heard that I freaking like I froze like I'm panicking because I'm a little kid in my in a dark room and I couldn't disconnect my my mind from the from the voice right because even when I'm when I'm listening to the I can hear like random chattering and even though I hear the the chattering in the background that that message of you know he can see us was super direct even though there was still that

chattering in the background like if you ever saw that movie knowing with Nicholas Cage and they had they call him the whisper people like whoever did that they either or intuited that somehow or they knew from experience that kind of phenomenon but you hadn't seen that movie

when this experience happened to no no no that movie didn't even exist so that was the very first kind of interaction like that. And I just covered myself and heard it for a while and I don't know if I went to sleep or whatever. And then I had several occurrences like that where I would wake up and I'd be in another room. And I don't know if that's sleepwalking or whatever it is. I don't want to speculate because I don't remember anything other than that.

But it scared the shit out of me. And how long did that exact experience last, like time wise? Just a few minutes. Okay. It was just a few minutes. each time was just a few minutes. It was never like 20 minutes or anything like that. It was literally like between two and 10 minutes, maybe tops.

But, you know, it's again, I'm like so frightened in the experience that time is kind of distorted. But, you know, not just that, actually. So also when I was very young, I was having spontaneous out of body experiences. And just simple ones, you know, like. like you're laying down and you're kind of awake and then you're you fall you're falling into sleep in hypnagogic state but you don't realize you fall asleep yet or at least i didn't at the point where like because there was no lapse in my consciousness i'm just laying down kind of looking up at the ceiling and all of a sudden i'm you know i'm rising above myself and i'm looking down to myself

and after like a few seconds i'm like holy shit that's me and then boom right back in my body kind of thing um so i had experiences like that and and because of those kind of experiences i i was always interested in uh ufos and um metaphysics and things like that so i was always reading books and and you know watching the late night you know ufo file shows on like discovery and wherever they had them um but yeah interesting correlation i i can't say that this is connected, but where I live, I live in the Hudson Valley. So there was a huge Hudson Valley UFO wave during that time. And, you know, I didn't know this until I was older, but during that time period,

there was one of the most famous UFO flaps in U.S. history called the Hudson Valley UFO wave. And Dr. J. Allen Heineck, before he passed away, co-authored a book on the Hudson Valley UFO wave. Wow. Unbeknownst to you, you were just a kid, obviously. Yeah. And did you tell your parents about these experiences? No, not these. Not these, no. I did not. Did you tell anyone? I mean, I probably told my mom and they're, you know, just like nightmare kind of thing.

So it's never something I would bring up. And I have to state that at this time, you know, when these experiences were happening, I was not, there's no connection. I wasn't tying this to the UFO phenomenon. Sure. It's just a weird thing that's happening. Right. I didn't know like honestly, like when I, the closest thing kind of to it was like if I was like if I was not, there's no. I was a kid and I saw like a ghost kind of movie. That was that seemed closer to it because I didn't have a concept of like non-human intelligence at five. Sure. I wasn't thinking about that. And how frequently would these happen?

So it happened maybe a dozen times over the course of two years or so. Okay. So every few months there'd be something like that. Out of body and then shadowy figures and then out of body and it would kind of alternate. Yeah. Well, the out of body stuff happens. sporadically throughout my life. That never really stopped.

It happened more frequently in like my teenage years, actually, for whatever reason. I can speculate on to why that is, but... Could you speculate? What do you think that is? I, you know, I had a little bit of a rough childhood, so a lot of times I say trauma brings about these kind of experiences. And I would say that certainly correlates with my own story. Interesting.

So, because, you know, when you have traumatic experiences, you kind of have to... to have a way to detach yourself from regular reality. And I guess that kind of makes sense, you know, because I'm into like, you know, obviously after years and stuff, Buddhism and meditation and all that, it's like very big in my own journey and stuff. And that kind of, it's very natural to me to detach that way. Interesting.

You know, and I'm like, I don't know if you can tell now, but I'm highly introverted. Hmm, no, I actually wouldn't go to that. Super, I'm super introverted. Interesting. And it's, I think all that kind of plays into the whole thing. Yeah. And I've heard, I mean, have you speculated that maybe it was like sleep paralysis, night

tears? Like obviously, I'm sure you've looked into that. So I've had, I've had all those things. I've had, I've had those and I can distinguish the difference. How, what is the difference? When, you know, when you're in a sleep paralysis, you can't move, number one. When I was a kid, I was fully functioning conscious and I can, you know, pull a covers over my head, hide, things like that.

When you're in sleep paralysis, you're like trying to, you're trying to move, you know, and you can't really. You can move a little bit until you finally can break yourself out of it. In the sleep paralysis, did you see anything? When I had sleep paralysis, no. I mean, one time, but I count that just as a sleep paralysis kind of thing. And what did you see in that experience? I just, I saw a small entity.

But again, I could, that could totally be, I don't, I don't, that's something. in my own book, if I, if I can't distinguish if I'm lucid, like awake or not, it's something, I kind of just put it on the side and say, that's highly questionable. Okay. I do think that such things exist like sleep paralysis, hallucinations, you know, being in hypnagogic state and seeing things that are not there or a product of your mind. But that gets into a really hypothetical discussion on, are you perceiving different realms and realities or is that literally just a figment of your imagination?

Sure. And what's the difference? Now we can discard that because it's so questionable and you can tell the difference between being lucid and being, you know, in a sleep paralysis state. Right. But what was that entity that you saw in the sleep paralysis? Oh. So it was just like this.

It almost looked like what we would call an alien and it was very small and it had the big eyes. And it was, you know, it was just standing there. But there was another one where it was on the ceiling looking down on me. And that one was a little freakier. But again, it's so questionable to me that that's something I don't, I just kind of write it off and say, okay, that's too questionable. That's separate from these other experiences that are much more lucid.

Yeah. And you can tell the difference because you've been in both. Yes. I see. Yeah. Yeah. And I've heard people speculate. When I spoke with Jay, I started doing a little bit more research.

And obviously his experiences were very sort of dramatic and intense. just like full abduction and things like that. And I started looking it up and I did research a little bit of like the trauma element, which I know is probably controversial within the community. Like, you know, some absurd people have tried to write off your story and say, oh, you had trauma from your childhood, whatever. So these things are a disassociation. Right.

How do you reconcile like that idea with your own journey? I mean, I don't feel, you know, if you want to get down to it on that, you need science, right? could that be determined probably eventually so that's that's a that's a really difficult question yeah i i can only tell you what i experience and how i feel about it and what i think about it i've definitely considered all those things sure and on my best you know summation of everything i i know when i've experienced something that's legitimately going on i don't i don't have other kind of episodes like this in my life where I'm imagining different things like you know what I mean

especially you know what I told you with my job is and everything I'm very kind of like sharp and on stuff highly observant right um so I you know I I think in my best estimation I can determine the difference between such a thing yeah and as you are getting older these experiences are becoming a little bit more intense is that fair to say so it's it's a lot of times for people who have these experience and and me including this is it it comes in waves. I mean, you know, some people have it more frequently than others, but a lot of times, you know, what we call, you know, an experience or somebody who experiences, you know, UFO encounters, but also other types of, um, kind of metaphysical experiences. If you want to call it that, some people won't even like you grouping

those together. And I understand why, uh, but, um, it's, it's different for every, body at different stages of their life. And for me, it's been in waves. So I've, you know, when I was younger, obviously, I had some strong waves and then I had another really strong wave when I was 20 years old that like slapped me into this whole thing and brought me to where I am now, basically. But the, it's, it's been periodic for me.

Yeah. But again, you know, we talked before about, um, C5 and close encounters of the fifth kind and be actually being able to, uh, initiate these kind of encounters if you, if you would like to. And that, um, you know, that kind of changes the, the probability of them happen. You know, that's participatory. So it's not just, it's happening to you now. Now you're part of the conversation of, of that in a way. Um, but, you know, be talking about when kind of like everything happened for me because, you know, I didn't want to go. over this so when I was about 20 years old yeah I was 20 years old because there's

2007 so during that time is when I had like this I guess like second really big wave in my life of encounters that that brought me here and that's why I created engaging the phenomenon and everything like that because you know all of a sudden you know and no don't mind you during this time I'm 20 years old I've been interested in these subjects for a number of years I've been reading books. I've been practicing meditation, actually very diligently. When did you start meditating?

About 18 years old. Oh, cool. And I started with like Chan, which is kind of, you know, the Chinese version of Zen because I was doing martial arts. Okay. And what kind of martial arts did you do? Chinese martial arts. Okay, cool.

You know, loosely. Yeah, yeah. Dragon Ball Z shirt, bro. That's how it started. Yeah. I always love it. It's the kind of Eastern culture. It's always been a theme for me.

Sure. To this day. So, you know spontaneously i guess you can say in 2007 i was working an overnight shift and the this guy i work with who's like super conservative and you know we talked to say hey and how's your family how are you doing kind of thing um we i never had expressed to him any interest in in these kind of topics so he's just cleaning the area and he's like hey did you do you know you hear about the UFOs in Mexico and I'm like at first I think like is he's joking with me or

something right like why is he why is he saying this to me and I didn't hear about any kind of UFO event or citing in Mexico so I just kind of brushed it off and said no I didn't and you know that was kind of that so I finished my shift and I'm driving home I go home and it's probably like 830 in the morning at this point because it was an overnight shift and I went to sleep and so when I'm sleeping, I have this crazy UFO dream. So in my dream, I'm driving like around the corner from where I live. And it's nighttime. And there's this like electrical orange plasma UFO 20 feet above my car or something.

And maybe 15 or 20 feet. And I'm like kind of freaking out because I'm in the dream and I'm super reactive. So all I'm thinking is like I got to get away from this thing. I don't even know why I was thinking that. I was just you know so I start speeding and like this thing just will not make any distance from me. There's nothing I can do and I'm feeling these electrical pulses through my body and kind of freaking out and then I just like snap out of the dream after like a few minutes right two and a half minutes or something. And I'm I wake up and it's like 3.30 in the afternoon or so and I'm like getting. gathering myself, you know, you snap out of a dream. You're kind of like getting reoriented. And a family member, you know, finishes, they finished work, whatever, they come in the house. And I'm, I'm walking towards the door because I'm going to go out or whatever. And they say to me, hey, did you hear about the UFOs in Mexico?

And I'm like, you know, screw this. This is, this is nonsense at this point, right? This is bullshit. This is absolute nonsense. So I'm like, okay. going to go down the street i'm going to go to this chinese place that's that i always go to and just get chinese food and like cool off because this is this is too crazy right now so i get in my car and i start driving and i drive like a few hundred feet and mind you it's like 3 30 in the afternoon at this

point so i'm driving and you know right clear center of my view in a perfectly you know clear blue guy I just see an orange fireball stationary and I look at it and I'm like holy shit that's a UFO and as soon as I think that because I was thinking it like in my head it starts to move

so I'm like freaking out at this point like it but I'm at this point I'm elated you know and I'm like trying to chase this thing and I you know I'm driving you know I went off course to from the Chinese place and I'm driving trying to chase it and it eventually just gets

out of my view. But it was just this, it was a fireball, right? There was no trail, no nothing and there's slowly gliding through the sky. And, you know, I haven't seen enough any kind of fireballs like that in the random blue sky. It's not the sun. Right. No. And so I was, I was freaking out. But the thing that hit me the hardest about that was, you know, not even, not even the UFO. And this is a very important point. It was not even the sighting of the UFO that happened in broad daylight that really hit me. It was the entire chain of events that occurred so, you know, serendipitously or synchronistically that, and how it took place that, like, really smacked me.

Because, like, what does that mean? How is that even possible? Like, I could understand the idea of I see a UFO in the sky. But to think about and understand the causation of how can this string of events happen such a way, right? How is that possible? Because you're not talking about just seeing some kind of like craft with entities in the sky or whatever it is, right?

You know, you have this whole, I mean, was that intuited by me? Was that designed by the other intelligence? Was it, you know, designed by a higher intelligence than that? And that gets into what Dr. Jayon Hineck called high strangeness is just like a level of synchronicity that is ridiculous, right? There's just no explanation for something like that. Were you talking publicly on Twitter or Facebook or anything? No, no. This is in 2007. So at this point, I'm completely in the closet. My family members had known that I probably have an interest because they see me reading the books and watching

stuff, but I had not talked to even them about this yet. But we're, you know, we're going to get to that. But no, I wasn't even on social media at that point. but this this was the first of kind of like three events that happened in a row that kind of actually led me out and to get involved in social media and to create engaging the phenomenon and do everything that I do now so that that was kind of like this first event and the the next event happened I want to say it's you know this all happened within probably I want to say maybe two, three

months. It's hard to, it's hard to really say because I, you know, I didn't write the dates down at this time. I wasn't, you know, first of all, it was all kind of crazy. And I wasn't expecting, I didn't know what to expect. And, you know, everything kind of just happened. But, um, so the,

the next event, um, which was probably again, maybe two, two and a half months later, is, you know, I was doing all these crazy shifts and, um, I was even working two jobs. And so one morning, I didn't, I barely slept.

It's like one of those nights I tried to sleep. I couldn't really sleep. You know, I was like in and out of sleep the whole night, whatever. And I decided I'm going to go, I'm going to go for a drive. I'm going to go and, you know, go out just because I couldn't go to sleep. So I ended up getting into this, this car accident. And, you know, I get into this car accident where the car flips and hits a building and all this. Whoa.

Like, yeah. Does someone hit you? No, I fell asleep. Whoa. Yeah, I fell asleep. And because of, you know, I was not, I was not really sleeping well. And so all of a sudden, I, you know, again, it's hard to kind of determine at what point I, lost consciousness or in this kind of altered consciousness state.

But I had this experience, which is kind of akin to a near-death experience. I didn't actually die or was nowhere close to death. But during the time I, you know, when it happened, I literally thought I was dead and I'm going to explain why. But I, you know, I've come to call a trauma-induced out-of-body experience. So all of a sudden, you know, during, you know, I guess during or after this, this crash, I'm in front of this light being, right? And, you know, I guess, you know, maybe somebody would call it a light being or an angel or something. It didn't look like a typical angel.

It looked like a light, a being made of light kind of like almost it had a head and, you know, shoulders and arms and it tapered down. It didn't really have legs. Was it masculine or feminine? It definitely seemed masculine. And I say that because when I'm facing. to face-to-face with it and I hear this like beautiful angelic crystalline orchestra that's like no sounds that can be made in this realm. It was like too glorious too perfect like heavenly right those are

kind of like the words that come to mind and when I'm face to face with this entity I have this again it's a sense that this entity and me are there's no separation between us like we're literally It feels like we're one kind of thing. I don't, you know, I have no words to really describe that. And, you know, I'm not religious. And especially at this point, I'm kind of like counterculture kind of is, you know, like rebellious against religion. I'm doing like Zen meditation.

Like I don't need religion kind of thing. Were you raised religious? I went to CCD and all that. I never took it really seriously. That's Christian? Yeah, Catholic, right? I'm a Roman Catholic. Um, so my grandma was like super, super like Catholic.

She was super into it. Super spiritual. Like I appreciated her devotion and how seriously she took it. But I just didn't believe, um, everything that I was told. And I didn't like, I didn't like being told what to believe and what to think. I just did. So that automatically made me question everything. Um, so, you know, the reason I bring that up.

is because while I hear this crystalline orchestra thing, you have this light being entity in front of me, and I hear this voice kind of like permeating through myself in reality, um, say, God is all there is ever was and ever will be. And like it feels like, it feels amazing, right? Like the sense of like pure love kind of thing. and you know just to retrospect a bit like i don't i don't think that it's talking about like

the god that is you know like some god in heaven kind of thing it didn't that's not what it felt like but those were the words that i heard right um were they verbal or was it like almost telepathic where it just was communicated to you it's it seemed like both it seemed like both it's hard to it's hard to take myself back there and really kind of distinguish the difference. But if I could say, I'd say it felt like both because I heard the like crystalline music, the angelic crystalline music. Like I did hear it. But I also felt it.

It was kind of like engulfing, right? It's overtaking you kind of thing. And it felt good. The force was. It felt incredible. And so right from that, it was like my reality, like, just completely reset. And from, because I'm, again, I'm in front of this light entity and all this stuff is going on.

And I can hear the music and I hear that message, right? And all of a sudden, it's like my reality did a reboot. And all of a sudden, I'm above the accent looking down on it. And when that happens, I'm thinking, so this is it, huh? Like, listen, I'm literally thinking that I've passed away. and I'm looking down at the accident. Now it's coming. Now like it's making sense to me.

Like, okay, I must be dead. And I'm looking down at this accident. I see the ambulance and I see the car. And I'm totally cool with it. Like totally fine. Like the term equanimity, right? Like that kind of comes to mind. Can you define that term?

It's just like you're completely equalized. Right. You know, you can say indifferent, but there's another quality to it that's hard to explain. But I was just totally cool with it. It was like totally like pieced out, man, just like this is fine. And I have no regret, no remorse. There was no like, I didn't do this in my life. It was just like, all right.

And so I'm and kind of like, wow, that's transitioning through that. I had this thing where I saw like the past, the present, in the future, kind of like in this, I don't know how to call it, not an orb or circle thing, but I saw it in like three different sections. But they were happening at the same time. And, and, but then again, then I come to where I'm looking down at the whole thing. And I'm totally cool with it. and all of a sudden I'm like I do that thing

where you shoot down again boom I'm back in my body and I'm like literally I come to waking consciousness and I'm like holy shit I'm alive and I'm in the ambulance but I have to mention this

because this I didn't realize this for years like literally I did not realize this until a few years ago the point where I was looking down from when I was up in the air looking down on the thing was the exact like pinpoint location

where I saw the fireball from the dream yeah no from from when I saw the fireball in the sky oh wow right so like I you know that's like crazy because I didn't it took me so long to realize that but when I did I was like holy shit because that where I crashed

there was it was the same location of where I saw the fireball in the side sky, you know, after I had the dream when I woke up and went out and I was driving and I was in broad daylight and I saw the fireball in the sky. That's exactly where my point of reference was when I was looking down at the accident. So that blew my mind. But that, again, it took me, I don't know how many years to realize that because I'd never thought about it in that way. And then one day when I was explaining the experience of somebody, it clicked. So that was that was crazy. What's up, guys? We've got to take a break really quick because I

need to tell you about some of the greatest vases in the game. Yeah, I'm sure you're wondering, what? Vases? Yeah, that's right. We are sponsored by vases, and this vase comes from freeze pipe. The freeze pipe vase might be the greatest vase ever invented, okay? Because with a normal vase, you're going to breathe in, and you're going to be breathing in all that hot smoke. You got a flower in the vase. You're going to be breathing in, and it's just going to be hot air going into your lungs. You're going to cough. You feel terrible. This is what the vase looks like. It's one of the greatest vases I've ever used in my life. This vase, it has a glycerine chamber. If you put in the freezer for one hour, it'll decrease the temperature of the air coming out of the vase by 300

degrees. You know what that means? Cold air. Feels amazing. Fills up your lungs. You feel so good when you breathe in air from this vase. You don't cough. You don't feel bad anymore. You can just take all the breasts of flour if you put that in the vase as you want. And you'll feel amazing. So if you're interested in checking out this vase or any of the other vases that they have on their website, you could go to the freezepipe.com and use the promo code Gagnon. That's right, Gagnon, Gagdon, Gagg, N-O-N,

and you will receive 10% off your entire order. This is one of the greatest vase websites I've ever been to. That's the freezepipe.com and use the promo code Gagnon for 10% off your entire order. Shop today and say goodbye to those gross old vases that make your lungs and throat hurt, all right? And get a vase that cares about you. Now let's get back to the show.

What was that feeling like remembering and saying, oh, wow, this place that I saw the fireball, a few months later, I have the accident in the same place. Yeah, I mean, they kind of like exhilarating. If that makes sense, I was like, it was exciting to me because I'm like, wait, what? It's like I found like a new piece of the puzzle kind of thing. So that was, that was like fascinating to me. And like even still thinking about it that boggles my mind, what does that mean? I don't even know. I don't know what that means.

Like, you know, a lot of the stuff, right? we can try to make sense of it. Did you share with anyone when you saw the fireball? Not in the dream, but when you were driving. Yeah, right after it happened, I called one of my friends and I'm telling them like, dude, you're not going to believe this. I saw this and this. And I told a few people, just a few very close friends.

And, you know, they were like, okay, that's cool. They, you know, I mean, they believe me, but they didn't see it. So, but this, you know, that was that whole thing that I just explained was the second kind of thing. So the third thing about this, the kind of third part of this series of events that kind of brought me to get involved in the UFO field publicly was the day after, you know, I'm released from the hospital and I'm just like trying to get back to normal life, I guess. And like from when that experience happened, the accident and the trauma induced out of body experience, like I had this feeling in my body that was different. Yeah, I physically felt different. Like, again, I don't like to use terms like this because it's, I guess, like, there's so many attachments to what, what they mean, but like I can feel like high vibrational, right? It felt like a buzzing kind of quality.

Did it feel good? Yeah. It felt like fantastic. So I have that kind of feeling in my body just like, now I'm not doing anything. It's just like that. Which is a bit strange after a car accident to come out of the hospital and say, I feel amazing. Yes. but at the same time, I was like, I'm like, I can't believe I'm alive.

Like, I'm so grateful that I'm alive, right? I'm alive and I'm in this amazing world. Like, I could not be here right now. You know, I could, it could have easily went some other way and I'm just not here anymore and that's it. And were there any injuries that you sustained from it? Just a concussion, just because I hit my head and I guess that might explain a lot. No, but, you know, I didn't have, I had no like. you know, injuries, other, you know, just like, I was internal bleeding, nothing like that.

Nothing like that. You know, I was a little banged up, but that's it. And were you able to share any of the details from what you saw when you were above the accident to any of the, like, ambulance or EMT? I was not thinking about any of that. I, so I didn't, but I mean, I know what the location looked like and, you know, where the ambulance was made sense and where the car actually was, was where the car was. I mean, could I have unconsciously perceived that possibly?

But you didn't share any of the details and be like, guys, my car was flipped and they're like, wait, how did you know, like? No, no, because I, I mean, I was, they took me in the ambulance and I'm still like, you know, kind of like. Coming down from just seeing this insane thing. Yeah. Past, present and future all happening at once, this being. Yeah. It was intense. I was not, I mean, I was like not.

I wasn't, I mean, I had the experience and I wasn't thinking. Like, I'm going to share this with people. Sure. Because at the time, I'm like, what, what just happened? Yeah, you're trying to make sense of it. Yeah. And when you say you saw past, present, future, I know it's probably difficult to articulate what that is because it's simultaneously a feeling and a knowledge that you sort of are

ascertaining, like in your being, like in your essence. Yeah. While also it's visualized in this orb. Yeah. What did the past look like? And how did that, like, manifest? Is there a way to articulate that? Wow.

It was crazy because it wasn't even just like my past. Like I was seeing things from my past, but I was seeing like, you know, what you would perceive as ancient stuff. So that it's to say, was it literal or is it an interpretation that I somehow intuted that's like a. Me trying to make sense of something. Sure. Whatever it is. I'm not looking at it from like scientific scrupulousness. Like this is sort of beyond science.

This is your personal experience. Yeah. But in that experience, did it like what did the ancient things that you saw? It was like I saw things like like like. like landscapes and and but it was mixed in with parts of my past too. Mm-hmm. So and so I guess you can say it was just like, what do you call it?

Like a time lapse. Interesting. Right. So can you share some of the specific things you saw? Yeah. Like I saw things in my childhood. Um, I saw things in.

So again, like the future, I don't really know what's going to go and happen in the future, but it looked like future timeline stuff like more, technological world and stuff like that and the present was it was just like what was kind of going on in my life within like months and that month and year kind of thing so and in the past stuff again it looked like things like planets and and suns and stars and stuff like forming uh if that makes sense but it was and it was all time last and it was happening simultaneously and i'm trying to take in everything at once

And I mean, while I was seeing everything and doing that, I mean, in my own mind, at least, and my own perception, it made sense like, okay, yeah, I like I get what's happening. And you knew what it was. Right, right. I mean, at least that's how I felt, right? So whether that's like a construct or a representation, I'm not sure. Right. And any of those future revelations that you saw are intuitive. No, I mean, if I was just to look at it now, I'd be like, that's kind of just random.

Right. But when I was viewing it, I like I knew, okay, that's, yeah, that's the future. Was it tangible? Like, could you see like, oh, the buildings look like this? Yeah. Yeah. And what did they look at? I mean, almost, I mean, not to be so cliche, but it'll kind of look like the Sims. The Sims, what was that? Sims, um, that Sims game like in the future. Yeah, yeah. It kind of look like that. Interesting. Like, I wouldn't say Star Trek, but kind of like that kind of thing. You know, like the way buildings look and everything were more rounded and like high tech. And again, I don't know if that's how things are actually going to look like, but it was at least a representation of like, oh, this is what the future is going to be like.

Were you in that future revelation? I was watching everything. But you could see yourself in the past and things from your own life. Yeah, yeah. But even that, I was watching it. Right. You know, when I was looking at it, I was not, I can see that to me, but I was not in it. Just like with all the timeline stuff.

I'm just like observing everything. Did you have a physical body when you were looking at it? I did I mean I didn't even have that kind of point of right like I was I was looking at it like it's in front of me sure so I from my point of view I was not in a body it didn't feel like that it didn't like look I didn't see like this you know it was like a point of um most like a point of perception interesting you know um so that's how that looked and again I could that just be like a representation. I don't know, but that's what the message felt like, that like this time is not linear

and it's simultaneously happening. And, you know, I can understand like the philosophy of that, but this kind of felt like it was a literal experience of that, even though I'm just observing it. It was very, it seemed like that concept was made more tangible through that experience. Sure. And were there any other notions from the past or the future that you thought were really poignant that stuck out to you that you were like wow i will never forget that thing that i saw no not really i mean it because it was happening so fast everything was kind of lapsing so there was nothing

that stood out in that way where i was that like taken by it right i was just like trying to at you know understand what's going on i'm like holy crap yeah kind of thing so all that happens go to the hospital at the hospital you're still trying to process exactly what's happening. They're running tests. They're making sure that you're okay. Scans, all that. And then you get discharged from the hospital the next day. Go home.

Yeah. And who's taking care of you at home? Just family? Yeah. I'm at my family's house. And I mean, when I get out, I'm walking and stuff. I'm not like. Sure.

So I'm kind of just back in my normal life. Feeling amazing. Yes. Grateful to be alive. Yeah. Have another shot. Yeah. That was the real thing.

Like, I was like, I'm, I can't believe I'm alive. Like, you know, I really felt like I had a second chance kind of thing. I was really feeling that way. And just out of curiosity, at this point, obviously you're doing a lot of martial arts. Were you like dabbling in any type of like substances, alcohol, weed, anything like that? I smoked and drank a little, but not too much. But no, like, psychedelic experiences or anything like that at this point. No, no.

Interesting. Yeah. And so this, at this point, I'm in my room. and it's it's you know just whatever you know I go home and do everything and I'm kind of like living my normal life but again I feel this kind of elation like 24-7 kind of thing like a buzzing in my body and I'm just super grateful like gratitude you know grateful to be alive and at this point I'm just like I'm cleaning my room like man you know like I'm just so happy to do this this sure that I'm able to do this, right?

And as I'm doing that, you know, it's probably like 9, 9.30 p.m. at night. And again, it's like the summer at this point. And all of a sudden, I hear a voice, you know, it's not just in my head. I can feel a sensation of my body, you know, beyond just the buzzing, say, come outside. And when I heard, when I heard the voice say come outside, like I, for some, I, automatically knew what's what's happening like so i and i'll i'll kind of explain what i'm going to explain for some reason i i knew what what this is and this meant but actually as soon as i heard that voice i hate to be so typical and again i don't know if this is a like a representational thing

if i just thought this in my head but i saw these two entities right like a male and female you know like what people call a Nordic, you know, blonde hair, blue eyes, human-looking alien or entity, and kind of like a kind of spacesuit, like a silver kind of tight suit. And it was like a silverish blue. And where were that? So I saw them in my mind.

So this was like part of a telepathic download. People would call it, I guess. But I felt, I felt the voice in my body, too. It wasn't just audible. And I, I, I, when it said, they said come outside. And it's, it's weird because I, again, you can call it telepathic download. And that's just a way of me trying to describe, um, that there was more, there was more

communicated than just those words. I got this whole kind of download about that they're related to us in some way. and they care about us. And I'm fully open to the idea of this being a misinterpretation or even a form of manipulation. But at the time, I'm like, this is literal to me. This is like actually happening. And I'm not even quite, this came that kind of retrospect and, you know, looking back at it, came afterwards. But when this is happening, I'm taking, this is all very literal to me.

So I believe that there's these entities in a ship outside waiting for me to come out there. and what their message is, you know. So I run outside and, you know, I get out the door and I have to get past these trees and I hear humming. And when I get past the trees, I look up and there's like a hexagon shaped metal craft right above the trees. So it's got to be like 80 feet in the air, maybe 100 feet in the air. And again, this is low hum. It's like, rooom. boom

like that it's like a very like a low kind of base it's very basy and I'm like freaking out I'm like oh my God this is again this felt amazing again part of the download as soon as

I got the download or there was a connection between my consciousness and you know their consciousness if that actually happened in that way if you can describe it that way. I was like super elated and I thought this was so incredible and I'm like running.

I get down the stairs and I'm looking up and it's just the craft is just slowly moving. And it disappears and instantaneously reappears like a thousand feet away. And oh, you know, I forgot to mention when I looked up like you see the different color lights are all around it like blue, yellow, green, white kind of swirling around and in the center there was like a fixture there was a perfect square of white light um and like i could have hit this thing with a rock that's how low this thing was um but when it it disappeared and then reappeared and then when i looked to because i i was i was looking at it and then when it reappeared i'm looking now across the street over the lake where it was this man-made lake and there's two other

crafts there with it so there's three crafts to have the lights like spinning around it like this and I'm just um yeah it's like this shape sort of it was it was like a hexagon so it had like flat parts of it but the edges were rounded so there weren't sharp edges there were rounded edges and I mean that the one I saw up close the other so when it disappeared and reappeared assuming it's the same craft from that distance I could not see the form of it as as good as I did when it was right above me but they all looked identical and it was like a dark dark dark gray it wasn't it didn't seem quite black but it was it was nighttime and like nine 9 30 p.m. so that was so at the point where now I'm looking and I see three of them and the lights are

spinning around and they're just like slowly just moving you know they're not hovering they're slowly just moving and at this point I'm really like questioning did I just hit my head so hard that I'm this is I'm this is I'm like hallucinating this I'm starting to really question my my reality at this point like am I actually seeing this is actually happening so I run inside and my family is there and I say I get I said guys you got to come outside they said why I said they're here and they said who's here I said just come outside so two of my family members come outside and they see these you know the objects are moving slow the lights are spinning all around them and I'm I'm thinking like this is disclosure right I didn't have the term for that at the time

But I'm thinking like that for some reason I'm thinking like the entire world knows this event is happening to me And like this is going to be all over the papers tomorrow because there's these crashed in the sky And everybody has to be seeing this like it I'm not even like it's a given to me So I'm like you know blown away and this whole Kind of like demonstration of these crafts just kind of like moving around with the light spinning around happened for maybe 20, 25 minutes. Wow. And the way it, yeah.

And this whole time, I'm like, this is, you know, this is crazy. This is all real. And everybody's going to know about this. And you're with two family members. Yes. That were not in the car accident. Right. That had they ever seen anything like this before?

I found out many years later that one of my family members had seen a UFO some years ago. But not like, it didn't look like this. And it was kind of a random thing. you know, random kind of, who knows, right? Is their connection to that? I don't know. And what are they saying to you as you're standing? They're looking over the lake, seeing these three.

They're like amazed. They're amazed. Like they can tell there's something like, yeah, like this is happening and this is like not ordinary kind of thing. And is there a conversation? Are they asking you what it is? Are you asking them? No.

I'm saying like, you see that, right? You see that? And they're like, yeah, yeah. And we're just kind of staring at it, right? the whole time and I'm I'm just like oh my god you know kind of just talking to myself a little bit I guess and um the way that the whole thing ended was that they're one of them disappeared so there's now two of these UFOs with the lights spinning around and they're coming they're coming towards each other like this and I'm thinking my head like holy shit these you know they're

going to crash because they're coming towards each other and the lights are spinning and as soon as like they're they're about to make contact and like make contact and touch into each other they just both vanished and the light the sky is completely clear and it's over it's just over like that just in one instant it's done and i'm just like mind blown right and i mean thank god that my family member saw it's like if they didn't i don't know i don't know if i would ever talked about it and i don't know if I would have even believed myself like I was questioning my my reality too hard until until somebody else actually saw it so I don't know if I would have been able to confirm that that something actually did occur were you scared in that experience I you know this it's

kind of weird because the the feeling that I felt the day before of kind of like really like kind of love and bliss and kind of everything. It was like, it was like that. And I, you know, I didn't even mention like, as soon as I had that connection download kind of thing, I had like a full-blown kundalini awakening experience. Like my entire body felt like electrified. And, you know,

what people call like a kundalini experience like that kind of thing. Like high levels of elation and bliss and things like that. But that there's physical. components to, right? Like you feel electrified in your body. It was very much like that. And when you describe those two beings that appeared to you, sort of in your consciousness while you're still inside your room, you describe them as like Norse?

Nordic. Yeah, I mean, in the UFO literature, they're called, people call them Nordics. Some people say, all these are Pleadians. And to this day, I mean, again, because at the point, I'm taking this literally. But really, and, you know, as part of my meditation, practice and contemplation like vachara practice inquiry practice I you know I really began to wonder again even not no this was years later like you know was that just a representation or was it literal and I don't know I don't know and again or was it

some kind of manipulation I don't know but if it felt literal at the time but the the more I really kind of wonder about it and contemplate on it, the more I kind of think it was some kind of representation and not, you know, yes, there was some kind of other intelligence interacting with me, but they were interacting with me in a way that I could handle and understand kind of thing. And as you're experiencing them, I know it might be difficult to verbalize because you're in your room in a physical reality. Right. But then these things are visually appearing to you in your consciousness. Is there a way to describe it in the way that like, I'm talking to you now, would the Nordic be next to you?

Or is it almost like... No. It was like a... Again, and maybe this says something about how I was seeing the past, the present, in the future at the same time. For some way,

I was able to perceive both simultaneously. Hmm. And there's no way I can describe that other than saying it like that. So it's simultaneously visual, but outside of, or concurrent with your present reality. Yeah, because I was, when I was looking around,

I was looking here, but it's overlaid in my mind, but visually. Right. You know, and I don't have you ever seen these beings before, like those being specifically? It's hard. I have to be honest and say that's hard to say because it is within the UFO literature. And at that point, I don't know if I had come across that.

It wouldn't be a stretch to say that I had. So and again, the more I think about it, the more I think in some way that it was representational and not literal. Although, you know, people, people, you know, will say those are. literal beings. And they might be, right? I don't know. But they were not tangibly there. They didn't shake my hand. So I can't commit to the idea that they were literal beings in the sense that that's what they look like. And when you, you mentioned manipulation. In what way could those beings have been manipulation as it relates to UFO literature? So when I say that is because, you know, the UFO intelligence, the way it seems like they can interact with you,

telepathically they can potentially make you see things right make you feel things so it really depends on your your kind of perspective of is this a manipulation

or is it literal or is a representational and what I mean by that is you know it's you know to kind of give perspective, there's something that came out when the A-TIP program was revealed the secret, you know, advanced aerospace threat identification program was outed in 2017 with Leslie Kane, Ralph Blumenthal,

and Helene Cooper. They wrote the New York Times article that broke open the whole story that, yes, actually, the United States government has a Pentagon program that is investigating UFOs. So when that story broke eventually, you know, one of my friends, I'll call him Twitter user Jay. That's what we all called him. He was able to kind of sleuth online and through Christopher Mellon's website, he got access to these crazy slides that were not supposed to be made public. There were DOD briefing slides for like closed briefings basically. These are Department of Defense private slides. Yeah, they were for ATIP for the advanced aerospace.

threat identification program and what were on these slides that he was able to uncover right so one of them was lou elizando's resignation letter and who's that lou he was the director of the program and there's a lot of controversy as saying oh he was he the was he the actual the director i'm not going to get into that i'm going to say all everything that happens that has happened since then speaks for itself i believe lou is who he says he wasn't he did direct the program after the other program o'sapp ended Lou took over. But that's, that's kind of,

that's, that's a whole thing in the stuff. Speculative, yeah. Um, well, no, that,

that is what I believe happened, but allsap was another program and that's almost like a whole another podcast. Hmm. But in the briefing slides, there's something called slide nine, right? It's been infamously called slide nine.

Again, my, my friend Twitter user, Jay actually wrote an excellent article and I think he did a short video on it. I think his website, if it's still up, it's called the mind sublime. And if,

you type in like the slide you know UFO slide nine it this is going to come up and on that slide it's talking about different capabilities that were observed by the department of the defense that UFOs or uap have and stuff is on there like able to to penetrate solid surfaces like good you know so uap's these are different capabilities that have they can go through objects like they can go through solid objects there's something on there and very important called cognitive human interface which is kind of like CE5. Actually, Louis Lazzando himself stated that correlation when I interviewed him on my channel. But one of the really interesting things on there and kind of alarming things is saying that, you know,

the UFO intelligence has the ability to manipulate leaders, right? And it says on there like psychotronics and psychotronic weapons. Like so based on the DOD's investigation, the UFO phenomenon has the ability to, influence people's thoughts and minds basically. So, you know, you can look at that in different ways. Some people are all like kind of love and light and they think it's all good. And I can under from the experiences, from some of the experiences I had, I can understand that because it felt like the experience that I had with those entities seemed like,

especially if I take it literally, right? It was amazing, right? it was it felt super positive um but is that me just perceiving it that way because i'm meant to right was that am i being manipulated i don't know um but so that briefing slide is talking about those different kind of capabilities so that's why i say manipulation because uh the pentagon the department department defense and people in the intelligence community are definitely wary of that you know, seemingly observed capability that UFO intelligence has at its disposal, right? Because if we're dealing with an advanced intelligence that's like, you know, super advanced,

you know, how could we tell a difference? Right. And how did this person get access to these slides? They were, I don't want to get him in trouble, anybody in trouble. But they were on Christopher Mellon's website. And I don't think it was they were meant to be. But he, and he didn't do anything illegal. you know he didn't he just went on the website and and went through all the stuff and found them

quickly downloaded them he and then you know they were up on twitter for a minute and then we were and then we were all like you know this we probably shouldn't put this out there because we don't want to compromise any initiatives that are going on and like somehow this is going to hurt what progress that's being made sure so he ended up pulling some of them down well the ones that really pulled down is within those files was the Tick-Tac investigative report on the Tick-Tac UFO that happened in 2004

and it listed people's like names and contact information and we're like, no, we can't we got to pull that because I think when he saw everything, he was just like throw it up before it disappears. Right. Right. And then when we saw that, we're like, no, let's pull

that because we don't want people like you know being compromised or getting contacted and their information out there. Of course. And now this is on Christopher Mellon's site. Yeah. And who was that?

Oh, wow. Christopher Mellon. He was at our last conference. So the title always is like crazy. He was like super high in intelligence. So I forget the exact title that he held. But it was like the assistant secretary for intelligence for the Senate. Oh, wow.

So he was working within the government at the time. super no he had he retired at this point but he came out in 2017 with to the stars academy as somebody trying to push this forward but you know obviously he has a lot of weight um to pull um and you know he's part of the melon family they're like one of the richest families in the united states and like carnegie melon yeah so they're like you know he's a super influential person He has connections in the government. He served under Clinton and Bush. Have you ever spoke with him about why these slides were on his website?

I didn't ask him that. I think he may have addressed it at one point. But I'm assuming that he had them there to give somebody access to them. Are they still on his site? No, no. They were taken down the next day. Wow. It was gone.

Like as soon as we got it, you know, it was out in the public. it was, everything was down. Everything was taken down. And that's where like, oh, my God. Because again, Lou Elizondo's resignation letter was in there too. Right. And that certainly should be private or was supposed to be private. It was actually eventually made public again by, I believe it was George Knapp reported on it and made it public officially.

But it was not supposed to come out in the way that it came out unless it was intentionally planted there for somebody to find and sluth out. Right. So when you say manipulation in relation to your own experience, perhaps these entities, as we know, can manipulate people through slide nine. And that's why you bring that out. Through what's discussed in that, yeah. And I mean, you can go into so many directions with that because, you know, even what we call religion, right? Could that have been a design by non-human intelligence interacting with humanity thousands of years ago, right?

Well, I mean, religious people would say, yeah, it was non-human intelligence. Like, if it is God. Well, there's the thing. It's non-human intelligence, but it's not. aliens. It can't be. Right. Because they're not spiritual entities. Right. Unless they are. And then they're always demons or, you know. Right. So anytime you bring religion to the mix, it has these weighted beliefs, right? Yeah, of course. And I understand why. But I think you need to bring a broader lines to it and say like, hold on, wait a second. You know, could this be, are we talking about the

same thing here? What's up guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I have to tell you about an amazing new device called fume. That's right. Fume. If you haven't heard of it, now you have. Fume is effectively flavored air. It's one of my favorite ways to de-stress. If you know me, you know I don't like to pick up bad habits, and fume takes the bad out of the habit, okay? Instead of electronics, fume is completely natural. Instead of vapor, fume uses flavored air.

And instead of harmful chemicals, fume uses all natural delicious flavors. I love the mint flavor. You take a deep breath, and the fume just feels amazing. It's a great way to de-stress. It makes you feel relaxed. And it's just a great way to even just, like, fidget while you're sitting in your chair. It just has, like, a cool little, like, bamboo knob. It's awesome. I love the fume. It just looks cool. It's super discreet. It goes in my pocket

through my backpack. I can have it at the airport. It's not a problem anywhere I go. And it just looks cool. It's fun to have. So let me just say this. Stopping something is difficult. It's hard to do. And that's why people put it off for a long time. But switching to fume is easy, enjoyable, and even fun. It really calms my anxiety and is a great way to de-stress. Fume has served over 100,000 customers and has thousands of success stories. And there's no reason that you can't be another one. Join Fume and accelerate humanity's breakup from destructive habits by picking up the journey pack. That's right. This is what I want you to do. You can go to try Fume, that's T-R-Y-F-U-M-M-com,

and use the promo code Gagnon, G-A-G-N-O-N-N-O-N, and you will save 10% off when you get the journey pack. That's Tri-F-U-M-D-com and use the promo code Gagnan, G-G-N-O-N-N-N to save an additional 10% off your order. Kick the bad habits. Take the bad out of the half, take a deep breath of basically flavored air that'll make you feel amazing take out the anxiety in your day and make you feel more relaxed let's get back to the show so before we get deeper into those documents you see these these craft basically touch disappear yeah before they disappear is there any movement from the trees is it cascading light onto the trees this this was above a man-made lake and they were I'm trying to say like

When they disappeared and reappeared, they were probably like 1,000 feet. I'm guessing. Sure. I don't really know. But across the lake. Yeah. They had to be at the least 1,000 feet away, 1,200 feet away, and they're over the lake. From that, I don't, I don't, I was, honestly, I was just staring at them.

I was not looking down at the water or anything. So I don't, I don't know if there was light reflecting off the water. When it was closer to you, did you feel any sensation other than the vibration? Well, I felt the, I felt like, I was having the kundalini. type thing throughout my whole body. Right. But you don't feel wind necessarily? No, not win, but I felt the base

kind of thing I felt, but I felt it through my whole body too. And I don't know if that's part of the kundalini thing or literally some kind of effect from the craft itself. Right. But it definitely, when it was like humming like that, I felt it. You know, like in

correlation with the sound. And then it goes away and then you're just standing there with your family members. Yeah. Were they older than you, younger than you? Older. And you look at them and you just go, that was weird. What is the immediate conversation? I was, I was a lot more excited than that.

I was, you know, just like mind-blown, you know, saying, cursing a little and just like talking very excited and kind of in disbelief. And we were just like, that actually happened. This, like, you saw that, right? That was kind of like the conversation. And then you go inside. Are they asking you questions? Huh?

they they they they did ask me what it was and I I was just like it's a UFO you know that's I didn't tell them about um the entities I saw in my mind because I thought you know I don't know I just didn't tell them about that I I because I actually didn't talk about that part for a number of years of anybody because I just I wasn't sure if I was imagining that or or what um and I was kind of like I I don't know. At that point, I was not really open about everything. Like I didn't, I shared that experience with a few people. And although I can tell they took me seriously, they're looking at me with the expectation on their face.

Like, I'm going to say, I'm kidding. Like, that's the look on their face. And that kind of hurt me. Sure. I mean, you experienced something so real. And then for people looking, be like, are you crazy? Like, it's very dismissive. can see they're looking at me and they they they were not like upset with me that it's not

there was like a major cognitive dissonance thing going on because I could see and they're they're trying to make sense of what I'm saying and like um the the thing like I had the feeling that they're waiting for me to tell them like ha I'm kidding or they're they're trying to sess out like is he exaggerating I can see like this the puzzled look like like them trying to make sense of what, you know, you know, and obviously they're, they're, they take me as a serious person, but they, I could see that it was too much. It was too much. And after that, I'm, I just, I really, I didn't tell anybody for a long time. Did it strain some of those relationships?

No, it actually didn't. That's good. One, one of the people that I told, totally. took it to the bank and like actually they you know and that's somebody that ended up going out and doing like C5s and stuff with me so

but one of the other people I mean and this this person's like into like they were doing martial arts with me at the same martial arts place they're into meditation like we would do meditations together and stuff and but I could see he was like bewildered

like it was too much it was too much and yeah i can like i think like he wanted to believe me but it didn't make sense to be that in his mind it was a literal thing that's that's i mean i could be wrong about that but and but let me tell you like several years later he ended up having an experience with me during c5 where this golden craft came right above the group like a thousand feet over us and it he had the same kind of like oh my god kind of elation thing and at that point i can tell he understood Of course.

Yeah. But that was years later. Unless you experience it, I don't really think there's a way you can understand it to the same level. Right. And that's a really important point because during that experience, I realized that I could never explain this to somebody and have it makes sense where it has that what ended up being for me a transformed of quality to it. Because these events, they changed me. I was not the same person. Yeah, I feel like it's like trying to explain a dream to someone.

Like I had a nightmare that was really scary and I tell it to you and you're like, it doesn't sound that scary. But it's like if you experienced the way that I felt in the moment and could like transport that feeling, you would understand. A strong kind of metaphor to me is like or analogy is you can tell somebody what it's like to be a parent. And, you know, they can, they can intellectually grasp like, I get that. I get that, I get that. But when you're a parent, it's like, you know, you know.

Right. It hits you deeper. It's fundamental. It's the only way it could hit you, you know. And so that's because of those experiences, that's how I ended up getting into CE5, which is the close encounters of the fifth kind, which is ultimately, can you initiate an experience and have a UFO encounter, which intentionally? Intentionally, yeah.

You're going out and you're like, I want to see. the UFO. But again, your attitude can't be so, so much like that. It has to be, I mean, again, it could, I guess, but the deeper you're kind of, the more serious you're taking it, I think the more likely it's going to occur that you're going to have some kind of interaction on whatever level. And obviously, that's out of our control. The UFO phenomenon is the one that's going to end up calling the shots and determine what such an encounter is going to entail. Now, did any of your family members that sought with you in that one's specific instance, they feel any sensation in their bodies and the way you did?

I did not ask them. I even to the dead and really asked them that. I talked to them a few times about it afterwards for sure. And that's not even the only event that they witnessed because when I ended up getting into the CE5, in 2010 or 2011, I believe it's 2011, actually, if I think about the date. So this is going to be, that's four years later. at that point I'm doing CE5 for a number of years. Are you having experiences in those CE5 sessions?

Is that what you call it a session? You can call it a session. Okay. Yeah, we call outings or, you know, CE5 field work. And how do you get involved in that from this experience? Like, you go to sleep that night. I can't imagine that's like a normal night, right? I didn't go to sleep early.

Yeah, right? I probably, yeah, I was up for a long time. And I called up some of my friends and told them what happened. and, you know, they were like, oh, that's cool and all this, but. Were you surprised the next day to wake up and it's not national news? Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I was kind of like disappointed. Were you asking neighbors and stuff?

I wasn't asking neighbors, but I was like looking in all the papers, even the local paper. Because I figured it's, if anywhere it has to be in the local paper, which they always had at this Joe cameras place that was back there. But nothing showed up. I never heard anything about it. And I was like, I was kind of disappointed in that because I literally figured it would have been all over the news. But at the same time, I almost didn't care because I had the experience.

As selfish as that sounds, it was so incredible. And did you ever end up looking into the UFO experience in Mexico that both of those people had mentioned to you? I looked and I didn't find anything as silly as that sounds. But even that is strange. Yeah, I know. I know. But contributing to the overall bizarre series of events.

Did you ever follow up with like your coworker that brought it up to your family member? Like, hey, where did you hear about this? I didn't know because at that time, it was so much that I wasn't thinking of those questions. The coworker, I didn't even want to ask because he didn't know I was into those things. And I didn't want to even talk about those subjects with him because at that time I was like super private about it. So are you still questioning your reality at this point? I know you had mentioned like when you're seeing sort of like these Nordics like you're starting to start of the question like, okay, am I experiencing reality in the same way? Did you ever consider like reaching out to a psychologist?

Were you concerned about your own present state or were you just excited because you had the experience? I was super excited. but I was also kind of like even a well at that point even a well season meditation practitioner. And I felt like I had a strong thing kind of grasp on reality. And I know the experiences that I had. But I didn't. I wasn't having again. I wasn't having other random episodes that didn't make sense.

Right. So I wasn't really questioning my sanity. Other than in the point when the interaction thing was going on. And I'm like, is this actually physically here or not? I think the confirmation kind of or validation from my family member seeing it was enough for me to say, okay, there's some, there's something real that's physical and not imaginary going on here. And you're aware that not everyone else can experience it at the same time. Well, I mean, again, I don't, I don't know because there could have been other people that saw it that didn't report it. I don't know.

Sure. I don't. It's hard to say that other people had, you know, definitely. didn't see it or couldn't i don't know i mean at the same time you know could the ufo phenomenon direct and experience towards people that definitely seems to be the case and then when you're getting to slide nine and there's you know kind of like dispersed articles on that you know or you know is it just that higher probability that these individuals that certain individuals are are you know have an inclination to have such an experience um but it it was because of those

experiences that I got into the CE5 because I realized that, you know, you can't just explain this to somebody and have them understanding. You have to kind of have the experience, right? Otherwise, there's no kind of transformative quality to it. And I mean, at that point, I was very, I was kind of very gung-ho about that, which I'm not in the same way anymore. Um, because, you know, when you're kind of in the whole thing, it's just like, I don't know, it's like you're on a roller coaster ride and it's amazing. And I'm not, you know, there's no breaks. Right. You know, it's just you're in it. And you have the spiritual experience. Like, yeah, you're not going to be constantly like fact checking. Like anyone that I know that has had like

a dramatic spiritual experience, whether it's through meditation or psychedelics or anything like that, there's not an immediate attempt to confirm it externally. You're just excited because you have the feeling you have the adrenaline you have whatever's going on physiologically to say i'd experience something real and it happened to me well i mean also what i'm trying to say is you know so from that point i found i found the c5 work close encounters of the fifth kind and the reason i found that is because on youtube i found a disclosure project and what's that which is you know it was led by somebody called Dr. Stephen Greer. And in 2001, he had a bunch of military witnesses,

military intelligence and corporate contractors that worked in the Defense Department. And in May 9th, 2001, there was a press conference held in Washington, D.C., where all these witnesses for maybe two or three hours, gave their testimony of their firsthand or secondhand experience with UFOs and the UFO cover-up. So this was a really, at the time, this was nothing like this had ever occurred. So this was like groundbreaking for the time.

Right. And that's documented on record. This happened. It's on YouTube. Yeah. You just type in Disclosure Project Press Club conference and it will come up. And so, you know, it's, you're hearing amazing. testimony and you know just a disclaimer for people I don't think every witness there was above

board so to speak some of the testimony is questionable you know make your own determination but some of them definitely seemed 100% legitimate especially john callahan and that's yeah that's a whole thing right there but look up his testimony can you share it as a piece of what that was he was like the second guy in like the fAA and in 1986 there was the japanese there was the Japanese airline UFO incident. And I think it was by Alaska and it was a Japanese airline. And there was just tremendous UFO that was seen by the pilot and by the people on the plane and on radar. And it was like blipping in and out like it was over here.

And then another second it was boom. Rematerialize like over here in a different location. And they tracked his whole incident on radar. for I forget how long, maybe like 20 or 30 minutes. And John Callahan was, I think he was like the number two guy in the FAA at the time or something. Like he was a very high ranking guy. And everybody's calling him, hey, saying, what's going on with this UFO? And so he goes and looks up all that data that they collected in the FAA about it.

And there's just a tremendous amount of data that they got on it. So he was called in to, I think it was the presidential, like scientific board or something. There was some scientific advisory board for the president that he was brought into. And there was like, he said, there was like two or three people from the CIA.

There was somebody else from the NSA. And there were some scientists there. And they went over all the data. They told them to bring all the data. And they were like, this is amazing. We never tracked a UFO on radar for this long before. And so they're looking at all this data. And they told them to bring it.

And he's like, so you're going to, this is going to, you know, you're going to tell people about this, right? And they're like, no, you know, people aren't going to understand it. It's too much for them to handle kind of thing. So somebody at the meeting swore everybody to secrecy. And kind of that was that, except that they didn't know that John Callahan brought copies. So he had all the firsthand radar tracks and all the information. And when he retired, he took it with him. And so around that time in the late 90s or early 2000s to 2001, he came forward and shared all the information.

So and like there's witnesses that had testimony that you can't really validate. This is 100% above board. There's no question at this incident. happened. The pilot was, you know, they made him, they took him off flight status, even though this event occurred and there was proof for it. That was later corrected, I think years later, thanks to Richard Haynes and others, who vetted for him that this event actually happened. And what was the name of that event again? If you type in like UFO, Alaskan airline or Japanese, yeah, I think Alaskan airline or Japanese airline. But if you type in John Callahan and you hear his

testimony, it's going to give you all the information on it. And to this day, because obviously the first thought I think a lot of people have is like, oh, military aircraft from a different military Russian that people don't know about. And that's why I was able to do that. But this happened in the 80s. 86, yeah. And to this day, is there any type of aircraft that could move at the rate that this one did based off the radar? I'm not an expert in that, but I would say no, because the way that you hear him describe it, it's like disappearing and then completely reappearing somewhere else. And it's a huge, it's a huge craft.

Did he describe the shape? I'm not sure. I don't recall. Mm-hmm. But it... Was it Tick-Tac or soft or... Because I don't... I don't know.

I don't recall, honestly, because the last time I went over that information was a long time ago. That's when you were just getting into it. Well, I, you know, this... So I've reviewed it a few times since, but there's just so many cases that I don't remember

if they say the shape of it. Yeah. But the radar tracks are there a million percent. You can tell about the approximate size of the craft, and it was big. And this is all disclosed in 2001. Right. I mean, it might have been reported on short...

before that, but it came out in a very big way with his testimony in 2001. And so you start researching this through YouTube, you start seeing these things, and all of a sudden you're like, whoa, this is similar to my experience. Well, so the relevance to this is that after I had those experiences in 2007, I'm like, you know, I was already researching and stuff, but now I'm like, this is a life mission for me. Like I, at this point, I have to, it's, again, it's like a life mission or duty for me. like I describe it in a way and again is this a manipulation I don't know where when those events occur to me I was like activated right switched on and this was like a major purpose in my life and what is the pursuit of that purpose in that time was it to discover what happened was it to find truth like how would you encaps both I mean like number one I wanted to understand what happened to me yeah and I you know so I in that way I felt compelled like I have to figure this out.

Right. Now that I, like, I knew I was interested in it before and I had other kind of weird experiences. But this, these events that happened hit me so hard, like where at this point I have to know. But then, you know, with that kind of conviction, I was kind of also like, and other people should know too. Yeah. Totally. Like, if this is real, everybody should know. Because if they had the realization that I had when I had during these experiences, it would transform them.

And for some reason, I thought that was a good idea. But because now I use a disclaimer, honestly, because like do, you know, again, just like if somebody has an awakening experience, right? Whether it's through meditation or psychedelics or what have you. I mean, like you think like, yeah, I want an awakening, man. I want to be awake, you know. But like, do you really? Do you know what that means, right? like that having an awakening experience like that i mean at first like yeah you have these cool

insights you're looking into the nature of reality and understanding and seeing things more clearly than before uh but you know you might also see past the illusion that like wow i hate my job why am i wasting my time going to work nine to five when i could be changing the world you know what i mean like and helping or doing my real passion or you know and and maybe you know i might My spouse has held me back from doing that. I don't need this relationship. It's dragging me down. Right.

It can really shake the fabric of what you think your life is. Everything. You could set your life completely upside down. And that's not going to be a fun ride. And it might not even be good for you, to be honest, at least initially. I mean, the way I look at things, I'm optimistic by nature. And I'm kind of like, in the long run, I would have much, I would much rather be. this way for me, but some people never, they, they, they go up and they don't come down. Like,

they're in the clouds and they never find that grounding. And they could suffer, you know, psychological effects. I mean, again, that's the implications of the UFO phenomenon, right? It's psychological effects, physical effects. There's a whole kind of assortment of thing. So, and again, not even just from UFOs, right? You can have that kind of effect from, of a Pasina retreat, right? What is that? It's like a Buddhist meditation 10-day retreat where you're meditating for like 100 hours

and 10 days, basically. Or psychedelic, right? You could end up being like, you know, I'm quitting my job and I'm moving to India or California or whatever it is. Which for some people maybe is good, but not everyone. Right.

I mean, for some people, it could be the best thing that they ever did in their life if they just like find their grounding and, you know, but for some people, it could just be a really bad, thing. I'm sure you've met people around the community that you meet and you see and you're

like, you've gone into this a little too quickly or you've dedicated time to this that maybe it might not have been the best thing for you. Well, and it's like it creates like in your mind like an even more countercultural effect. And so people start grasping on to every kind of conspiratorial counterculture. Anything from our alternative media is now real. You know, some people don't have the the um wherewithal to make the distance and say maybe i don't know you know that's why like it's you know and i don't want to judge people or say you know because at some point time a lot of us have been at some point where we think okay that's more likely or that's less likely or have been more kind of like taken by alternative narratives um but i mean some people are just go all

in and that that's not a good thing yeah and you seem very like scrupulous like you seem very skeptical about things as they're happening, which I think gives your experiences, obviously, your experience is a real and they happened to you, even if not every other person could experience them in the exact same time. But you seem skeptical in terms of seeing things and being like, okay, is this verifiable? Is there a way to sort of scrutinize this data? And you don't just seem like you're jumping on every different conspiracy or countercultural narrative that you can get your hands on. Is that fair to say? Yeah. And I mean, that's, I mean, I can say I probably got some of that from meditation practice.

So I had some grounding. You had a tether. You know, something. And, you know, I went through a phase where I was more enthusiastic. And again, I thought some of this stuff was, was literal. As far as like aliens and extraterrestrials and you can say like the surface appearance of things where now. I look at it and I say it's possible. It's very possible

that some of these things are as they appear. They are what they appear to be. But at the same time, I'm able to kind of have like a Zen paradox perspective and say, oh, it might appear that way, but in its true nature, is that actually what it is?

Maybe not. Right. Whether you know, that's from a kind of greater aspect of reality and kind of like what people would call simulation theory, the simulation hypothesis where we're in a kind of simulation thing, or just in a more simple sense that, you know,

if we're talking about UFOs, is that are any of these entities the actual UFO intelligence itself, or are some of these entities, surrogates or were made to believe that they represent the UFO reality when they're really not. They're just tools. you know so it's i mean that's the kind of thinking that you can get into if you can let yourself go down those rabbit holes and i mean for some people that kind of thinking is destabilizing right

right um they take the what is it the red pill in the matrix right and it's but it's so it's so much like that really like again and that's why i say like do you really want to is that what you really want for yourself i don't know and if you do get into it it's probably smart to have some type of tether whether it's family whether it's right close relationships with other people that are not necessarily involved in this or a meditative practice or something like that. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to even say that's guaranteed, right?

Right. I mean, that'll probably definitely help you. If you have some kind of strong foundation, something to bring you to reality and something you can be sure of, something to fall back on, kind of. But, you know, for everybody, it's going to be different and everybody has different thresholds and you know again for me I can have those kind of thought exercises and contemplations and it's not going to affect me at my job or right or what have you I can go to work do my job right be a good father or things like that be settled in in consensus acknowledge that

there is a consensus reality right whether whether it is what we think it is or not there's what there's such a thing called consensus reality there are laws to physics There are universal principles, you know, like I know I'm not going to just fly, so I'm not going to try that, right? Right. I have that kind of sense or grounding. But at the same time, I can contemplate on things like, well, what if? Right. And if there are different realities or extensions of reality or, you know, multiverse realities that are existing at the same time, you can entertain those things and pursue those things, but still be grounded by the consensus reality that non-experiencers are having.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way to put it. Yeah. And I think it's, I think that's a really important point is to like respect the consensus reality. Well, acknowledge it for what it is. I mean, it's a, it's a major part of our reality.

You know, whether whether it's real or not, we suffer the effects of it, right? We have to cope with it. We have to live in it. Right. You know, whether we believe it or not, it's there. And, you know, we have to, you know, live accordingly to that. Exactly. You know, while at the same time acknowledging, you know,

we can bend some boundaries a little bit and and our will has a greater effect than we might think too right so i do kind of think that that you know the consciousness aspect is an important part of all this and that you know our understanding of physics and and things like that are inevitably they're going to evolve as we understand the universe better and i so i like some of the kind of out there ideas that that are involved in consciousness and you know the implications of if we're in a conscious universe, how consciousness affects reality and even consensus reality. So that's,

you know, that's another thing with CE5 is if CE5 works and right, and I had Lou Alizando on engaging the phenomenon for an interview, and we talked about slide nine and cognitive human interface. And that's what he even said. It's kind of like your CE5. So you're able to consciously, interface with another intelligence.

Is it? Yeah. Sorry, keep going. I was going to say, is that all completely technological? Or is there something else, right? Does non-human intelligence have an understanding of consciousness that enables them through technology to utilize that? And what is our potential on that?

Right. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because you need an attorney. That's right. Maybe you were in a car accident. Maybe you slipped, leaving your apartment, leaving your house. the sidewalk was all wet, who knows. Maybe you need an attorney.

And if you do, you've got to check out Morgan and Morgan. That's who I would probably call. If something happened to me, if I was riding my bike and I crashed, someone crashed into me, the worst thing about an accident is barely even the accident, right? I'll have back pain, you'll have neck pain, who knows? The worst part is trying to find an attorney. It's exhausting. You go online, you search all these websites.

You're going through Google. You're like, who is this guy? If you're young like me, you don't, you've never got an attorney before. It's a really, really challenging thing to do. and it can be super confusing, and that's why you could go to Morgan and Morgan. Morgan is America's largest personal injury law firm. They have over 100 offices nationwide and more than 800 attorneys. That's right.

They have recovered over $15 billion for their clients. It's so simple, eight clicks or less, you go to Morgan and Morgan, you can submit a claim, and now here's what's amazing. They don't charge you a single penny unless they win your case. You got nothing to lose. So if you're ever injured, you could go to for thepeople.com slash gagnon. That's correct. For the people, F-O-R-the-people.com slash Gagnon, or dial pound law, that's pound 529 from your cell phone. I'm telling you, Morgan and Morgan, these are great guys. Dan Morgan is an

absolute legend. If you don't know Dan Morgan, you know, he's an attorney, but he's even more than that, right? He's a writer. He's a rapper. One of the greatest rappers of our generation, okay? So if you're ever injured, you could check out Morgan and Morgan. That's for the people.com, F-O-R-the-people.com, slash gagnon, G-G-N-O-N-O-N-O-N-L-Law. That's pound-5-29 from your cell phone. that's for the people.com slash gagnon or dial pound law pound 529 from your cell phone. If you're injured, you can check them out. And by checking them out, you help support the show by supporting the sponsors that sponsored the show.

And that helps us get amazing things like this brand new studio that we're going to be recording all of our episodes out of. So thank you to all the sponsors. Thank you to Morgan and Morgan for supporting us and supporting the dream of creating the greatest podcast in the world. Now, let's get back to the show. Okay. So can you explain CE5 how you got into it and what exactly it is for people that have

never heard of this before. Yeah. So I got into C-5 because I saw Dr. Greer doing the disclosure project. And when I saw him doing the disclosure project, I'm like, who is his random doctor? Because he was a medical doctor. And here he is with all these military witnesses disclosing, you know, this testimony about UFOs from insiders. So I'm like, who is this guy? I started looking up, Dr. Stephen Greer. And I found his other work, which actually happened to be his main work, which was called C-SETI, the center for. the study of extraterrestrial intelligence. And when I was looking into the C-SETI, there was something called the CE5 initiative.

And he described the C-E-5 initiative as basically a human citizen outreach program to be able to interact with UFO intelligence, which he always calls extraterrestrial intelligence. He's specific about that and his reasoning. I don't know if he's completely right about that, but it is what it is. and you know he said that you know you can do this by doing what he calls the CE5 protocols

and when he was talking about CE5 in general what caught me at first other than him having all these military witnesses and that being very impressive and kind of like groundbreaking like historical and I was thinking why didn't I hear about this when he's talking about CE5 in contact he's He's describing it in a way that you could not describe it that way if you didn't experience it yourself. There were just subtleties to how he was explaining contact and how it worked. That from my experience, the way I experienced everything, I figured you couldn't just make that up. Like you had to have had an experience to understand those kind of subtleties to what he was saying. So that caught my attention.

And I looked into CE5, which is a close encounter of the fifth kind. You know, there's all the CE1 through CE5. And he said, you know, he created protocols or co-created them as he says with non-human intelligence. And that you basically do a meditation. I'm super simplifying this. But you basically do a meditation. and do something akin to remote viewing, and you use remote viewing to,

and that, you know, for people don't know, remote viewing is when you basically are using your intuition or psychic senses to perceive other points in space and time. And the CIA had a program called Project Stargate studying this for 20 years, and they took it seriously, and they were able to get some targets of, like, military assets from other countries,

and it was successful. And so there, There's some, you know, kind of interesting background to that. So this is like MK Ultra, Montauk project, things like that? It's Project Stargate. So they kind of mesh together a little. So there's a blurriness right there. Like, but yeah, kind of.

Is it similar like what we've seen like stranger things? Like popularized. Yeah, like that guy, Papa, he's like trying to train these psychic kids. That's like definitely we're talking like that kind of stuff. Got it. Not just not literally, but very similar where they're identifying people in the military. you have a proclivity to intuition and what Annie Jacobson wrote a book called Phenomena, which is phenomenal discussing the entire, the secret history of the government and the CIA secret spy program

of, you know, using remote viewers. I mean, that was the impetus for the show. I think the Duffer Brothers disclosed, like the original name for Sturter Things was the Montau project, which is basically these types of like military experience. So there's some kind of, I don't want to say fantasy, but there's some. conspiracy revolved around that but what I'm talking about is completely above board the documents came out it's legit there's no question to the authenticity of it so there's that that kind of part of it that's conspiratorial and there's some

questions about it partially real partially not probably partially disinformation but then there's this which is completely above board it's it's completely acknowledged right and we know the people that were involved who you know Dr. Hal put off, who was part of To the Stars, who helped get some of this out, you know, with the New York Times story and Louis Alizando. So, but just to get back to the C.5 protocol is you're doing something like a meditation doesn't really matter what kind to get into a kind of deep, tranquil state, what we can call like a shamata almost. And once you get to a kind of tranquil and peaceful state, you're doing remote viewing. or what what dr stephen greer called coherent thought sequencing so not only are you're remote viewing but you're intending to peacefully interact with a non-human intelligence and a remote view

them but then you're using the remote viewing to vector back to your specific location and you kind of go through that process for like another 10 15 20 minutes whatever it is and then you're basically out in the field you know generally that's that's how it's done You're doing out doing field work. So you can do this alone or with a group of people. Usually it's recommended with a group of people. But I found like if you're like me, you're introverted, you've already had experiences. You're actually going to have very intimate stuff when you're solo or with smaller groups.

Now, is the protocol for remote viewing? Is that a very specific trained protocol? Okay. So there are there are protocols for that called controlled remote viewing. And that's kind of the way that they did in the CIA and the Army intelligence. but the way that that Dr. Greer taught it was much more like traditional Sanskrit Vedic tradition, more like what you would learn. And I mean, Stephen Greer was a teacher for Maharishi Maheshiyogi, the founder of Transcendental

Meditation. So he actually teaches TM without telling you it's TM, the internal mantra. So Dr. Greer's version is different than the way he teaches those kind of exercises is different from what you would learn from somebody who was in the remote viewing program and because a lot of those guys have come out now with their own books trying to you know teaching remote viewing um so there's a number of those guys lynn buchanan david more house and and others like if you saw the men who stare goats it's based on a true story you know they added some kind of like comedy and fuse some characters and stuff but the general premises is um you know real and so the all those guys

that were involved in those programs have come out with their own like, you know, here's how you do remote viewing. And they're very similar. You know, some of them have you listened to like white noise and you have to write down your impressions or draw pictures without trying

to analyze it because if you try to analyze it, you're kind of breaking, you're involving too much of your brain and breaking the intuitive glimpses and impressions kind of thing. But Dr. Greer's version is more like you're doing traditional meditation that you would learn like yoga or buddhist kind of traditions and or

transcendental meditation and after you're in that settled state you're doing this coherent thought sequence and you know generally you're out in the field when you do this or you're out in an area with hopefully a clear sky um and it's generally done at night because it's easier to see objects in the sky and that's that's how it was always done um but the it's important to know that Stephen Greer wasn't the first person doing this. And it's like the further you look back in history, the different iterations there were of this. Because in 1974, there was a group of people in Peru,

Lima, Peru, called Mission Rama. And that's another incredible story, dude, where they're doing these meditation exercises. This guy, Sixto Paswels, his father was a UFO researcher, and he went to this UFO conference, and there was a 32nd degree Freemason who was giving a lecture on how to communicate through automatic writing with non-human intelligences.

So he took that practice and went home to his family and they were getting these crazy messages that were like, somebody was like, okay, I'm reading a book, what book is it? And the intelligence said, like, you're reading this book, page 72, word three, this is the word, and they're like, holy crap. kind of like weird. I mean, again, this isn't a book, so it's hard to tell how legitimate that is,

but the sightings that they had were absolutely legit. So because there's been recordings of them by local media, where they had what they were called program sightings. So they were like, we don't, you know, we don't believe you. We want to actually see you. So these group of people in Peru were told, like, on a Wednesday night at 9 p.m., go to this part of the desert. And sure enough, they go out there.

And there's a whole group of them, you know, the friends and family. And they see this crazy hamburger-shaped UFO. And everybody panics. They lose their shit. And people are panicking and running. And, you know, allegedly the intelligence said to, you know, six so pastels, well, you guys were not ready. So you have to start doing these meditation exercises, concentration exercises,

uh, vegetarian diet. And you have to prepare for contact. So that's just like a brief rundown of Mission Rama, highly simplified. But the further you go back in time, shamans and even John D. and the Inokian kind of magic, there's all these different iterations of human beings using different rituals or practices to interact with non-human intelligence. Just in today's vernacular, we call them UFOs because we understand technology. So that's like a way for us to understand whatever this is, possibly all the same thing,

which is kind of something put forward by Dr. Jacques Valet with passport to Magonia trying to say like, okay, we have elves and fairies and all this, but are they really different from the UFO phenomenon? We have lights in the sky that appear that communicate with people. And, you know, so he made the argument in that book is like, is this all the same intelligence or type of phenomena that's been interacting with humanity from the beginning of time kind of thing, which is really, really cool. And that connects the pyramids, that connects all of these probably ancient structures in some way. And religions.

Right. Right. Angels, demons, Jins, right? You can, you know, if you have the open mind to it, you can see how they can all, you know, the UFO phenomenon in some ways is very similar. And, you know, a follow up to that. Dr. Diana Pesolka wrote a book called American Cosmic. And she, she's a religious professor.

And she really communicates that, I think, in a really good way. Because she was doing research into religious studies, Catholic. And she was looking at some of the experiences that these nuns were having. And when she was talking to a friend about it, they said, oh, that sounds like, you know, like a UFO encounter. And she's like, no. And then she looked into it and sure enough, there was a lot of correlations there. So the idea of contact with non-human intelligence is as old as mankind, basically, and religion. Right.

And that can be brought through rituals and things like this, meditation stuff. Right. You know, I mean, beyond psychedelics. Right. Yeah. And that's a distinction because I made a joke that, you know, somebody said, can you do psychedelics and do a C5? I said I want to I want to qualify that and say no because you can right but I think that it confuses the two in that I would I would give the psychedelic experience with non-human intelligence its own category right to differentiate because when you do a CE5 right a successful one and you know that's again a CE5 you can do a whole podcast on C5 because there's there's so much to go into there

I mean I have my own podcast and I've done countless episodes just on C5 because I have a whole category of just CE5 because there's there's so much to it but you know if you have a psychedelic experience even even if you have like a like a shared thing where there's a group of people experiencing the same thing which in itself is incredible right like what does that mean how how is that possible but it happens um but would somebody out of that group see what they're seeing probably not right but with c e5 there there are certainly you know see five events where you know everybody is seeing it objectively in the sky you can actually record it it's physically there right so there's a occasions like that so that i would say differentiates that category of contact

You know, and again, in a larger context, CE5 is part of what people call contact modalities, which could, which is like a whole assortment, you know, psychedelics, C.E.5, lucid dreaming, you know, any other kind of like ritual where you're interacting with contact with a non-human intelligence can fall under contact modalities, you know, and Grant Cameron wrote a book on that. And it's an excellent book, and there's a ton of information in there on all these different types of contact modalities and ways to contact non-human intelligence. And, you know, I think depending on the individual, different things are going to work better for different people. So I give a lot of credit to Dr. Stephen Greer with the CE5 protocols because, you know, Mission Rama, although they were highly successful, and they have very good video footage of at least one contact event that has. happened and it was recorded by the local media I have it on my YouTube page under the

the video called Mission Rama because it's just you know this I think the recording was taken in the late 80s or so and it's just like there's there were not drones like that there were able to perform as far as we know to do what these objects that you see in the video do but not only that the people that were there were told where and to go by the so-called UFO intelligence, which is... Can I pull that video up now? Do you mind? Yeah, go ahead.

That'd be okay. We can cut it in. So this is local news that comes out to record it. Yeah, they were told, you know, where there's going to be UFO sighting here at this time. And hundreds of people are here. Yeah. So, but the crazy thing is, you know, and during, this is like a kind of weird thing. Like, if I don't want to, it's hard to explain it.

The UFO phenomenon is going to interact with who it wants to. So if there's people that it doesn't want to interact with, it won't, right? And so they won't visually see it. So there might not be an interaction at all. So what happened was they were the, a lot of people left. And after the people left, this is when the event occurred. But they still, the reporters were there and they got the footage. So watch, you're going to see.

You'll see. And they're using like mantras and stuff. They're like, Rama. Yeah, watch you're going to see here. And these are journalists that are describing seeing it. These are not. These are people that were there. It's not the piece after this is the part that's better, but this is good too.

Because again, these are anomalous lights in the sky at the time and location that they're supposed to be, you know, that something was supposed to happen. Okay, watch though. Like the way the movement was, like at that time, like, there's no, that's not a plane. And they weren't doing drones back then, right? And why would there be military drones over that kind of thing? You know what I mean? so you definitely have to take in a point of time and place of that

so this is in South America in the 80s right and they were told to go to this location at that time wow so do you think it was more vivid in person like obviously like you take your phone out and you film the moon and it looks tiny but in your eye

video footage in the 80s that you know it's not like high deaf you know but again I think the correlation with them being told the location the time to go there and this experience happens of, you know, anomalous lights in the sky. You know, they're reporting more that's going on through telepathy and stuff. You can't validate that.

But, you know, that as far as UFO footage, a lot of people are looking for something that should be in a movie, but genuine UFO footage is not, it doesn't look fantastical, but it looks like how is that done kind of thing. Like even those, the three Department of Defense videos, the Navy videos that were put out to a normal spectator. They're like, oh, that's just a blob. But it's like, no, actually these objects were being tracked doing this. You know, there's other classified information they're not telling you.

And it's doing something that it shouldn't be doing. So that's what makes it interesting, not like, oh, it's visually aesthetic. Like, wow, you know. Right. So, I mean, a lot of different things. Like, if you see, you know, it's different now because there's all drones and stuff. But, you know, if you see an object do something it's not supposed to do and it's correlating you with your thoughts that that's when you have something like okay holy shit right right

and the video experience is going to be different than the personal experience a million percent yeah you i mean there's some good c5 footage but no none of none of it is like you know something from a stephen spilberg movie you know and the early days in the 90s when stephen greer was doing a lot of that stuff there was interference with their equipment like cameras would stop working and things like that watches compasses would go like Haywire while some of these events were going on. And they have a few good night vision videos, but none of them are like spectacular,

like this is definitive proof of the UFO reality. And what do you think that is? Do you think it's because it's occurring in some type of like bent reality situation that the personal experience is going to be different because it's hitting you on like almost a spiritual level? Well, it's definitely hitting you on a consciousness based level, right? That's one. I mean, you're having impressions given to you seemingly by this intelligence, communicating different things.

And when you think something, it reacts. So that's not, you can't really capture that, right? I mean, now with different equipment, you can begin to start. Like, if you have one of those EEG monitors and set up with a camera and I mean, Joe Schmo doing CE5 out in the field is not going to have access to all that stuff. Could there be good studies done on it nowadays? Yes. you know, but obviously that you need the right people, you need funding, and you need to do it right, and you have to evolve the study as it goes to find out what's going to be a useful data point

where we can validate. There's something going on here that's anomalous, genuinely, and it's repeatable. Right. So can you speak to some of your CE5 experiences? How many times have you done it and what are sort of the experiences that you've had? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I've done it hundreds of times. Oh, really?

If not in like the thousands. Oh, wow. Like in the thousand. So almost like every couple months you're doing these. intentional experiences. Well, I mean, when I, when I first, after those experiences and I found the work, I was doing it daily. Really? And at that point, I was meditating like at least three hours a day. Three hours. Yeah. Wow. You know, I didn't have all the responsibilities back then. You know what I mean? So I could like throw myself into it. And this is still like the Chen meditation or is this different

I? So over time, I like I still love Chan and Zen and I've taken, I've learned different things and I've like done different types of yogic meditations like crea yoga that kind of um what you know petangeles yoga or raja yoga people will be familiar with those kind of terms um it's like the meditative uh school of yoga the the primary focus is meditation and expanded awareness self-realization did you ever learn TM I did an indirectly through stephen greer because he taught he he teaches it without telling saying it's DM right so you end up meeting him yes oh yeah so that's yeah how does that unfold okay so the first event i ended up going out to because you know i had to like you know you got to pay for travel and you have to pay for the event

and pay for lodging so the first event i went out to was in arizona in 2010 so i went out to that event it was a three-day event and it was a it was a conference slash c5 training so during the day you're he stephen greer's team his meditation practices and and talking about CE5 and you know what to look out for this is how kind of contact happens and then there's other kind of like UFO kind of consciousness-based lectures and then at night everybody goes out and and you participate in CE5 in real time so at this event it was like a conference slash training so it was like a bigger event they only did it for a few years because I guess they were like piloting it and there was like 200 people there and that's

not I you know I learned later on that's not good for for contact really like you don't if you're doing serious contact unless everybody on there is like on a similar kind of page consciously or like intentionally it it breaks the coherence and the focus and it become you know other these people are kind of like partying over here these people are doing something else and it it it it makes the thing incoherent basically um but and and there were people there there were kind of like thrill seekers and there were locals that just go to every conference that's in town so i did have um a very unique experience there you know there were what like what people call flash bulbs it's like a flash of pinpoint light out of nowhere at different parts of the sky um which is

not attributable to like a rotating satellite it's different than that and it can happen like a sequence. So it's it's it's you can distinguish if it's actually like a rotating satellite our radium flare or what people call in in a C-C-E-5 fieldwork, a flash bulb. So I saw things like that and we saw, you know, like alleged meteors that were zigzagging in the sky like stuff like that where it's cool to see but it's not like close enough where it hits you in a really different way where you're like wow, that's like a very direct kind of thing. but so I kind of was at this event and it was the first night and we're seeing these things but I'm like you know I want I want something more direct like that this is this is for real kind of thing like even though I had been doing it I'd been having my own experience like I wanted to know that like the C5 initiative as this was like the real deal and so I asked for like a kind of validation during my meditation and like maybe 15 or 20 feet away like maybe 10 feet in the air 12 feet in the air i saw a ruby red orb like almost the size of a

basketball and i'm like looking around and like nobody's gasping right but i'm like what the you know what the heck is this right and so i'm assuming okay nobody else sees this i'm not gonna i'm not saying anything about this because i'm going to look like an idiot um if i just say hey do you see that do you see that right and then and there's nothing there people are going to be like because the way this it looked right it looked like that like if you stare into a lot light and then you look and there's like an overlay on top of what you're seeing right it looks like this ruby red orb was imprinted on top of reality that's what it looked like um and i'm like i'm not saying anything about this so because nobody else is like looking at this or saying this is

amazing or whatever so i'm going to keep it to myself are these people going to think i'm making this up or i'm like seeing what i want to see so like 30 seconds later uh You know, Dr. Greer takes his laser pointer and circles the exact area and says there was just a ruby red orb over here. I was like, holy shit. Wow. Okay. That, that for me was direct enough where I knew something was going on with that. Did anyone else also see it?

It was you and Greer. I mean, other people could have seen it. I don't know. But I don't. That's not the impression I had because nobody was like, hey, look at that. And it was like right there. Like I said, this thing was maybe like 10, 12 feet off the ground and like 15 or 20 feet. away from me. It was like right there.

So I didn't get the impression that other people saw it, but that for me was enough validation that, okay, that was something. And, you know, again, anytime we mentioned Stephen Greer, you get out, put a disclaimer because, you know, he's done a lot of great things in the field and the credit where to do a million percent. He's changed history with some of the stuff he's done but he's also like nowadays saying like all these people that don't agree with him are are disinformation agents and they're trying to put false a force a fake disclosure that's going to trick everybody for a military industrial complex plan and you know what maybe he's right i don't know but i don't i don't think so really um not the way it's happening then

and the way he's directly accusing certain people i don't think is right. I don't think he's correct. And so it creates a weird kind of situation where you have somebody who is highly respected in the field in the early days, you know, at least in the 1990s and early 2000s, who's now, in some ways, I think he's become an obstacle to the conversation at the same time now because he's, you know, some of the things he's saying and the people he's blaming, it's, it really, it seems more like a vendetta than actual, like, we're seeking truth and disclosure kind of thing. It feels unproductive to the overall disclosure.

Yeah, because again, all his disclosure project witnesses were intelligence and military people. But now he's, you know, if you're in the intelligence apparatus or intelligence community in the military and you don't agree with him, you're part of this cabal cover-up thing. Sure. So it's like, that just seems like a double standard to me, you know, where you have people like Louis Luzondo and Christopher Mellon and Dr. Eric Davis and all these people, these people like, you know, risk their careers, put their careers in a line.

Lou Elizando stepped away from his high-ranking position in the Pentagon to, to, because, so we can put this information out. So in 2001, he would have been the ultimate disclosure project witness. But because he doesn't align with everything Stephen Greer does, he's, he's part of some kind of conspiracy. I see. That makes sense. It seems like a double standard to me.

It doesn't seem fair. And if, you know, at the same time. All this stuff is happening now where you have these whistleblowers coming out and an incredible progress being made. And, you know, there's been language drafted in the National Defense Authorization Act year after year. There's been congressional hearings. And that all that that's all been possible because of things that Louis Lazzando and Christopher Mellon and Leslie Kane and, you know, Dr. Gary Nolan, Dr. Eric Davis, Dr. Holt putoff and many other people participated in. But at the same time, he does a recent conference,

and he's trying to say like, you know, it's a positive development, but the people who were responsible for making it happen are part of some other things. So it's like which one is it? Right. And he's at the same time almost capitalizing or making the events he's doing with things that they may happen,

that they were part, right? So which one is it? Right. Is the data good or is it disinformation? How can it be both? That makes sense. Yeah. I mean, it's just, It just seems off to me.

So in all of your CE5 experiences, have any of them been scary or intense? So this is a weird kind of thing, is that, I mean, I found in CE5, I've never had a negative experience. Really? Right. So I think, you know, some people said the UFO phenomenon kind of reflects back to you what's inside, you know, kind of thing, cosmic mirror thing. And not always because people just have random experiences. that are sometimes awesome and sometimes that are like terrifying. So I don't know if that has anything to do with that.

But I do know that out of CE5 and, you know, I created the first CE5 social networks going back, you know, 13 years ago, whatever. And I started connecting different people that were CE5 field group, you know, field group leaders and members and that became a whole thing. And so I was able to speak with at this point tens of thousands of different people doing this and worked in the field. with hundreds of different people doing CE5s.

And generally speaking, like 95% of people that go out there and do a CE5 have positive experiences because you're going out there with a positive intention. Right. Right. That's the only kind of correlation I can say, well, if you're going out with a positive intention, like the high majority of the time you're going to have a positive experience, at least with CE5. there's there's there there have been a few reports of negative or frightening experiences after

C.5 but I mean again given all the data I've seen off of like people's different experiences and field reports it's a very very very low minority of people who have a negative experience from a C5 yeah but that's not to say that you can have a positive experience that it won't turn your life upside down right this is that tethering thing we're right yeah can you stay grounded reality despite having a very intense, you know, alternative reality experience. Yeah. So, like, I mean, I was very gung-ho about C-E-5 back in the day, whereas now I'm like, I always have a disclaimer now because, you know, again, that can, you could have a very

positive and powerful experience and like, you know, that can make your life difficult. So I always put that out there now that even if it's like a wonderful experience, you don't know how it's going to affect you. Sure. I mean, I think it's like anything. I mean, obviously this is not psychedelics, but I've heard people that have done ayahuasca and have had amazing transformational, you know, life changing experiences where they say, this is not my purpose and my purpose is this other thing and I'm able to pursue it fully. And then there's people that, you know, obviously will go off the wagon, so to speak, or they might be pretty supposed to schizophrenia and then it triggers a schizophrenic episode. And there's obviously negative effects to any type of spiritual practice that's not grounded in reality in some way or gone in with the right intention.

That makes a lot of sense. Even like grounded meditation practices like a papassana, that seems like kind of grounded is very kind of like strict Buddhist meditation and you're just observing reality as arises and passes and you're seeing into the nature of reality. And even that, I mean, there's, you know, people can have a negative effect from that too. So I mean, I generally think like a little bit of meditation could probably benefit everybody. But yeah, if you're sensitive or, you know, you end up having some kind of like such. Tori, Kencho, Zen experience, awakening thing, like by chance or whatever, you know, watch out. Yeah, it could be amazing, but you don't know what you're in for. Yeah.

Are some of your experiences, are they typically like orb related? Are the visuals you see? Yeah, like a lot of them, you know, they are like that, right? Like, I'll be looking at a portion of the sky after I do a C.E5 and sometimes it's, it can even happen before like retro causally, which is crazy. But, you know, and an orb appears out of nowhere, stationary, and then starts to move and then disappears. Now, things like that. Nothing kind of like, I would say crazy, but there have been a few CE5s where like with, I'll say, I'll say I had a really extreme kind of like CE5 with this one.

Well, again, my whole family was here for this too. But I was I was with this one family member and they They want they knew I was doing this so they were like okay, what's this? What's this about? So I said, okay, I'll show you But don't expect anything to happen. This is just consider this a practice thing because it's you know, it's It's it's hit or miss depending on your intensity how serious you're taking it how regularly you're practicing kind of thing. So just let's do this as a little bit of this is a little bit of a practice. So we literally do a 20-minute meditation. And, you know, when the meditation is done,

this person, she's like crying. And I'm like, you know, what's going on? And she was like in my meditation. I, you know, she had this amazing connection as she describes with these entities. And they told her, like, look for the colors. And I'm thinking at the this point, like even, even though I've had like successful C.E.5s, I'm like, maybe I don't know what to make of that. So like, I'm even like, you know, I should, this is probably like judgmental, but I'm thinking like, maybe she's just like, maybe that was just the voice in her head. Even, even though I've had these experiences, right? I'm still like having that kind of like background thinking. Um, because I didn't know what to make of it, right? I learned later,

you don't, you shouldn't judge the impressions. You have to see how it comes out. but so I'm like okay so we step out of the room and you know we were doing this at nighttime and again this is the same thing it's like 9 p.m. it's a summer night this is 2011 and there were two other family members they're sitting in the dark as they're watching a movie and one of them says somebody was taking pictures of us I said what do you mean they said there's flashes coming from outside like lighting up the inside of the house like somebody's taking a camera flash so I'm like okay, okay, maybe there's something going on. So I run outside and I, you know,

I always advise don't use lasers ever, even though I did. So I grab my laser on the way out. And when I go outside, there's these two objects that kind of look like bright satellites, but they're moving kind of like this. So I flash in the middle in between them, which again, don't use lasers.

Don't shine them at any in the sky. Just don't use them. I'd you know there you can get in trouble so don't be stupid with lasers um so i flash the laser in the middle and they one flashed and then the other flashed so i'm like holy crap okay this is this is something's going on here so and again the person that was with me during the meditation that said look for the colors she was there when i was doing this and she you know she saw that so all of a sudden every location that you looked at in the sky i swear over here there's a purple or but you can see there's a structure behind it but the the light of the the you know purple is like illuminating there's something

like a craft behind it but it's far away small but you can still then there's a red one like that there's a green one there's things flying to the sky again like a meteor but zigzagging there's these flash bulb like bursts of light coming out of nowhere and all of a sudden i get this kundalini thing again and we ran in and got my other two family members and said you have to see this so again for like 20 25 minutes maybe half an hour there's this is happening non-stop the entire sky like there had to be hundreds of different like UFOs or manifestations happening one after the other and again it's not just like one after the other you're looking here there's something going on you're looking here there's something going on and i'm having this kundalini thing again and i saw in in the yard because we were in the

backyard like a almost like a pyramidal structure of these yellow orbs like that looks like kind of like that ruby red one it was very similar to that except they were yellow and they were like there was like three or four and then like two or three and there was like a pyramid configuration and like I felt like I was like almost being like electrified with kundalini energy and this I'm like you know while all this is going on and nobody nobody else saw that but me for whatever reason that the pyramidal structure they're seeing everything else and then I'm like I have to go get my friend my friend Dave because my friend Dave is the one that I was doing the C5s with like on a daily basis.

He was my main C5 partner. And so, and he was, we had planned to do C5 that night, and I was going to go pick him up from work. So I'm like, I really don't want to leave right now, but he has to see this.

Like he has to. Because we were doing C5s and having some basic experiences that were cool and kind of direct, but not, this was just outstanding. This is like, you know,

aesthetically, visually, this was even crazier than the experience I had with the hexagon type craft just because the sheer amount because again i'm thinking in my mind just like almost subconsciously that every one of these UFOs represents different entities right now could that have been have some kind of visual display or something i don't know but like if that were true there were hundreds of different entities that participate in this event which doesn't make sense to me so for some reason

i think there has to be some kind of other explanation for how these manifestations were occurring because there's it just seems like absurd to me that like hundreds of different entities would participate in an event like this for what right i i mean i jokingly call like an intergalactic initiation because it it was a definite demonstration of event for whatever reason it was a you know there's not it was a major event um kind of like ufo event or encounter and everybody there saw I saw it and I was like I have to go get Dave I just because he needs to see this he's been working so hard with me and you know we see things but not like this so I leave and you know this is

stuff is still going on as I'm driving down to the driveway and it's it's it's so incredible and you know I last I went I got Dave I'm telling him about all this and I'm calling him on the way there and and we get back and the whole the thing's over the show's over And one of my family members says, yeah, as soon as you left, they went away. That was it. Wow. And I was like, God, she's like, oh, they followed you. I don't know if that's true.

That's kind of like the feeling they got. But that was a CE5 event. So that was initiated. That was intentional. And that occurred. And it was absolutely amazing. And I've had all different types of CE5 experiences varying, varying from like that extreme to very mundane. would seem mundane.

But, I mean, with every CE5 experience, I never took for granted. I always had the kind of thinking of, you know, even if this seems mundane, the fact that you're able, a human is able to intentionally interact with a non-human intelligence is insane, is awesome, right? The implication of that. So, you know, a lot of times people are looking for some kind of crazy experience. with a CE5 and that may or may not happen, right? But I mean, just the fact alone that it would work at all is insane, right?

And so that family member that you had done the CE5 with, she saw it. And the two other people that hadn't done the meditation, they also saw it. They saw everything. Yeah. Wow. Except that the pyramidal structure thing. Right. But everything else in the sky that was going on crazy, they all saw it.

And now had you set up a recording with your camera or had you pulled your phone out, What do you think you would have captured? I think if I had set up a camera, it would have gotten, the lights would have shown up, probably not in great quality in 2011, but they probably would have shown up. Something would have shown up. Because, I mean, I think so, because everything there looked like it was actually happening. I mean, again, could it be some kind of thing where the UFO intelligence is making you see these things? That's definitely a possibility. not in all UFO cases

because we have to say there are cases where things are being tracked on radar indefinitely while there are objects there while there's visual sighting gun camera footage radar all cooperating this object is there

and it's performing these incredible like the David Fravor account exactly right so without a doubt there are many encounters like that was this one of them I don't know it sure it seemed like it to me right in what I was seeing because some of them didn't just look like lights

some of them like you can see a structure behind the lights that the glow from the orb or whatever you can see a structure behind it now have you ever done an experiment where you set up a camera intentionally to capture anything yeah and i got like basic stuff it's it's nothing compelling and i don't know what it is it's like i don't want to say it's like oh the UFO intelligence is just not going to let you capture it but there there's also something to be said is like when you're you're it's hard to be in the process and and record it's at the same time because your intentions are not the same. And I think part of that is, yeah, the UFO phenomenon is ultimately going to decide if you

record something or not. You know, it has a potential to jam your equipment. Absolutely. But also that there's a human component of where it's like you're really now focusing on like, I have to get this footage rather than being present and being effective in the process of what makes C.E5 work. Right. And have you ever seen beings?

during C.5, I've seen like orbs that come like literally down into the field like several feet away, but I have not seen beings in the field when doing C.E.5. So people report that, but there's also people that report that

they're seeing it with like subtle vision. So they're seeing like outlines of things, but it's not like a flesh and blood type entity. But I mean, again, you have varying reports of people saying whatever personally me i've seen again like orbs and lights and things like that come very very close like right in the field with you during a ce5 that other people saw too but not i haven't seen entities that just come in the field like that when you're doing a ce5 right people have speculations as to that like oh when when you're doing ce5 you're interacting with

these type of beings that are on a higher frequency and they don't you know so i i don't know that you know what the reality of any of that is but i can see why they people make that kind of argument um is it i don't know if it's you know is it possible to have some kind of encounter like that mission rama reported that it happened to them so that was what was unique about the mission rama cases that they claimed to have like face-to-face sightings um with beings and they report that they went on board that's you know that's highly controversial and there's no proof for that but um they had a lot of they had a good track record with the ufo sightings that makes part of their story a bit more believable but i'm always skeptical as to

whether you know even if you have an encounter like that right what part of it is psychic your consciousness based like simulated right like you're in a kind of like they put your consciousness in a simulation and you feel like you're actually there and you're not you know it's not actually happening in our objective reality. There's different arguments said about that kind of thing. But, you know, and again, there's, there's pictures people have and it's kind of like blurry photos of like, oh, this is an entity that came into the field. I'm skeptical of that.

Yeah. So could it, but could it be, you know, you know, like one thing described as like, oh, well, it's an as, like an electronic projection from UFO intelligence. It's not an entity, but it's a projection of one through technology. It could happen, right? But I don't know. And do these orbs feel good? Do you get a presence from them?

Obviously, you have these kondolini experiences, but is it a positive force? Is it a negative force? My own experience is with these kind of orbs have been positive. And that they are good, that the presence is good. It feels that way. It likes humanity. It feels that way. But I have to say it feels that way.

I don't know, right? I mean, people will say they're manipulating you. They're, you know, and these are actually demons. And I don't, I really don't know, man. I mean, that's why now, again, I use a disclaimer because now, now I'm more open to saying, I don't know, because back then, it's not that I wasn't open to saying I don't know, but I thought I knew. Right.

The experience is so real. It's like, yeah, I know what I saw. Right. And as well, and more so I like than that is because I have a good feeling that means this, therefore this intelligence is good. Right. Right. Where now I'm kind of like, hold on the second.

Like, let me really think about this. You know, I don't know, right? But it felt positive. It felt good. And I have to say in my own life, it feels like my life has changed for the better in different ways, right? And none of these experiences were induced with psychedelics or anything like that. Right. Correct.

Have you ever done psychedelics, like outside of these experiences? I did a few, not much. And what did you do? I tried. I've done. LSD and I've done mushrooms and high dose mushrooms

I wouldn't say high dose no I don't you know it was like a one off kind of thing and were those experiences interesting to you did they glean any type of information they were not like this kind of experience they I mean I because you kind of go into it and you're expecting I guess an

experience I guess and you I don't know I mean you're kind of expecting it to be a hallucination, I guess. You know, I mean, that's how it was for me. And it was like cool and everything. And I see how it could have transformed with qualities.

I guess probably especially if you're doing it in like crazy doses or something. Right. But it didn't have the same kind of effect on me. Would you say that mushrooms or LSD just had more typical experiences of those substances that other people report? Like with mushrooms, you felt maybe like, like energetic or did you have like small hallucinations or things like that or with LSD? Very, very minor. But it's probably because I didn't have too much, you know.

And the LSD experience was not dramatic? It was cool. It was very cool. And what was that experience like? A lot of laughing. Yeah. I was laughing a lot. And the idea of like things like the universe being connected was really cool.

But also something. Something I did take away from it was I remember this crazy insight that I had on it was even though I'd been doing meditation well before this. But I realized when I'm thinking that it was just a product of my brain. Like I just had that realization for whatever that I was like able to observe my thoughts in a particular way. Where it was just kind of like a byproduct of the brain and the mind and not myself kind of thing. Like, you know, I've read about stuff like that in meditation literature and stuff, but that I had like the direct experience and inside of it. Like, ah, like it clicked. Like, you know what I mean?

Kind of thing. And what do you make of that? Like that in what sense that these things are outside of yourself and they're sort of like? Well, thoughts. I'm saying like thoughts, you know, they, they're not your inherent self. Right. thoughts are sort of like passing in and out of your consciousness. Right.

And you can sort of choose to ruminate and focus on certain ones. Well, because so many times that your thoughts are happening so subconsciously that you identify with them. When, you know, you can just say, you know, instead of just being angry, you can say like, wait, hold on. What is this? Where is it coming from? Why is it? And, you know, it's actually, it's just my body react, my body chemistry reacting. to, you know, so a thought, and it's not, I'm, it's not actually me, right? It doesn't represent who

I am on the deepest level. It's just, you know, an experience of an emotion. Yeah. And why am I having this emotion? And I can choose to engage with this emotion or not, right, right. You know, so. Yeah, I've done very basic like mindfulness meditation. And I grew up Catholic as well, so I prayed a lot, obviously, as a kid and still now. Yeah. But, and I know that in mindfulness, people often say, like, oh, observe your thoughts as they're sort of entering into your consciousness and leaving and yeah just sort of let those sort of come in and out whenever i meditate i can never really identify the thoughts as separate from myself yeah is that have you experienced like i did well yeah yeah i yeah and and different but i i mean i got crazy with meditation and that like

i was super super and you know i still am into it like i still practice meditation very regularly um But yeah, I mean, to me it makes, it makes, it makes, you know, especially, I mean, I had insights into that before, but especially after that experience, it was like a given. Right. And you, but you didn't see or anything while you were doing psychedelics. No. No. I mean, I saw like with the mushrooms, I think, or I don't even remember which one. I saw like a little like swirling.

Right. You know, but it was a visual effect done by the psilocybin or by the LSD. Whatever. Yeah. Right. That was like separate and distinct from these other. There were no entities. There was no communicating.

with anything from these other CE5 experiences. Yeah, yeah, or the other experiences that were not CE5s, but were contact experiences

that just spontaneously occurred. Do you still get spontaneous occurrences? Yeah, yeah. So, you know, that's the kind of the thing

with CE5, too. I did a video that says, like, you know, you know, contact doesn't begin or end with CE5. So, like,

you could say plan that you're going to do a CE5. at like 8 p.m. at night, whatever, on Friday. And just having that thought or intention, you know, you don't even do the protocols or practice, and boom, you step outside and something's there, whether it's the day before or two hours before you're supposed to do it.

So it's, you know, once you start engage with CE5, and this is part of the disclaimer, you're kind of in the thing, right? Right. You kind of open yourself up to these experiences. Right. And for some people that can go away, and there's there's kind of ways you can ground yourself and make it go away or something. But, you know, more or less you don't know what's going to happen and what your sensitivity to it's going to be.

And so do things spontaneously happen to me still? Yes. You know, but there's a number of factors within that is I've had experiences before. So I'm kind of already open in a sense. And two, you know, I've been doing C5s, you know, regularly for a year or so is. any of that a response to the C5. Right. So it's hard to kind of gauge what's spontaneous anymore.

Yeah, right. You're meditating frequently almost every day at this point. Yeah. And so. Yeah. Is your intention every time you meditate to have some type of C5 or sometimes meditation is just on its own. No, no, no.

No, the majority of my meditation is like, it's kind of like exercise, right? Like it's more for mental clarity and. Yeah. Yeah. That kind of thing. And I still like meditating, but I am sort of like, I'm like almost afraid of these C5 experiences. Like I wouldn't want. I wouldn't want this to just happen to me spontaneously.

And in my life, nothing like this has ever occurred. Yeah. So just through my regular meditative practice now, I don't want this to happen necessarily against my will. Do I have to be worried about that now? I mean, I don't think if you don't have a focused intention to do it, I don't think it's just going to randomly happen. But like, could it just happen? by knowledge of it, I may be, you know, I'm not going to say, I don't want to stop you from meditating, but that, you know, focus on grounded meditations, you know, don't think about entities

when you're doing meditation and stuff and UFOs, right? Yeah. Do your kids ask you about this? Like, I'm sure they're aware of your meditation. I, I, I believe in independent thinking. I would never try to put my thinking on, on even people that, that don't believe me per se. Like, if, I'm talking about UFOs to somebody and I can see they're uncomfortable, I'm not going to continue talking about it because I don't want to upset their. That's, they have a right to their worldview, right? What I do with engaging the phenomena, I'm out in the public. I'm, you know, you can choose not to look at what I'm saying. Right. I'm not going to force this kind of idea and reality on anybody. I don't, I don't like, I don't like that kind of conduct. So,

what's up guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I have to tell you about one of the greatest outdoor companies to ever exist. And that is the company that made the very tent that I'm sitting in right now. Mm-hmm. Take a look around. This is a beautiful canvas tent that is also the greatest studio on podcasting, maybe.

I mean, this place is just absolutely phenomenal. And it came from White Duck outdoors. That's right. I went all through the internet. I was trying to build this brand new space where I'm going to have the most interesting conversations in the world. And I was like, you know what?

I need a tent that's going to be beautiful. It's going to last. It's going to be big enough. It's got to be able to hold all this equipment. I can hang stuff on the walls. And that's how I found White Duck Outdoors. They're the best. They're great people and they make amazing products.

This is straight from their website. Their products are inclusive. They're for anyone and any activity. It could be camping, glamping, hunting in your backyard, a podcast studio. There's so many uses for these amazing tents. Me and White Duck Outdoors have a great relationship. And that's because we agree on a few major points. All right.

At the core, we both want to disconnect from the grind and stress. and repetition of day-to-day life and reconnect with friends, family, loved ones, interesting people, doctors, psychologists. That's why I want to have all of my conversations inside a white duck outdoors tent. This is what I love about white duck outdoors. Their mission has and always will be to give outdoor lovers a way to reconnect with loved ones, friends, and themselves through a sustainably manufactured durable product that are designed to last a lifetime. And that's what this is. This is the place. This is my home. This is where I'm talking to the greatest people in the world inside of what White Duck Outdoor tent. So if you're interested in checking this out,

if you're camping, you just want to set up something in your backyard, take a nap. Who knows? You could go to whitetuckoutdoors.com. They have a bunch of different types of tents, obviously, right? They make tents. That's kind of their thing. But a ton of other products, they even have clothes and gear and all sorts of stuff. I'm going to link the tent that I'm in right now in the description of this episode. So if you want to check it out, you can go there. Or you can just go to white duck outdoors.com. Check them out. And thank you so much for sponsoring the show and making all of this possible. Now let's get back to it. Have any scientists reached out to you to try to sort of observe or like record any of your experiences? There's been people that reached out to me and

nothing ever became of it on a number of occasions. I'm optimistic that somewhere along the line, especially with everything going on now in the world with the UFO reality, with the UAP phenomenon with what we call disclosure and things like that occurring. I think it's inevitable. And I always make the argument that like the remote viewing program had, you know, I think $20 million in 20 years, but that's back in the 70s to the 90s. So there was more money back then. But, you know, I think that CE5 has more going for it than the remote viewing program. And they invested that much in the remote viewing program.

And the reason I say it has more going for it is because there are, you know, these, There's tangible objects that interface during a CE5. So if you had the right equipment set up, you know, you should be able to record some of that. Right. And it's not perfect all the time because, again, there's people that have been trying to document CE5s for many years. And sometimes they get good footage. But it's not all the time. Right.

And it's not this like compelling disclosure that the general public wants it to be. It should be enough that if a scientist was serious and you have an anomaly within the data and you can't figure it out, you have to continue to pursue it. Do you think scientists are sort of scared to approach it because they don't want to risk their professional reputation? Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I think that there's probably many more scientists that are curious about it than are willing to admit. But again, we're seeing a huge shift now. We're seeing a lot of that change, you know, thanks to everything that's going on right now. that is the tide is is turning because I you know maybe not specifically with C5 per se but I definitely with just say the UFO phenomenon UFO research I've I've spoken to many academics have approached me to talk about UFOs even just in private they've personally confided in you

like hey there's something going on to me on social media they've come to events that Jay and I do they they want to talk about UFOs and and you know participate in events and and things like that there's so many more academics coming on board. And what is the current state of like UAP affairs? And obviously there's things with like, what's his name, Grush, David Grush? David Grush. David Grush just had like a massive interview basically like disclosing that there's craft and potentially being as well in like U.S. government possession.

Can you sort of explain what the state of that is and how that impacts what your work is? Yeah. I mean, you know, there's been talk about that over the years. I mean, it's in the UFO literature, right? We've all heard about Roswell and stuff. And there's been different witnesses that participated in kind of like saying, oh, you know, this is real. Their credentials are good, but they don't have too much evidence of proof. So it's created this kind of myth in the UFO field.

But it's, you know, if you look at all the evidence that's out there in books and reports and everything, like it's, there's so much. There's a lot of stuff that's not true and there's, you know, potentially, you know, planted disinformation to lead people astray, but also some good stuff there where it's like, it makes a good case. But, you know, we have now several insiders for especially the last couple of years coming forward saying that they have direct knowledge of programs that are involved with UFO crash retrievals, crash and or landing retrievals, and, um, reverse engineering programs or, or, you know, programs that are made to exploit UFO technology, you know, whether and so David

Grush is, is just the latest witness to come forward because we, we've heard things from like Dr. Eric Davis and there was a whole, this whole thing. And, you know, you should have a whole podcast on this called the Wilson Davis memo, because there was a, There's a memo that leaked. This is another leak that me and my friends were involved with, right? Somebody else leaked it, but we got our hands on it really early. And at the time, I was talking to Dr. Eric Davis. And who's Dr. Eric Davis?

Okay, wow. You know, he was involved in the OSAP program, which became atyp. And they were, you know, OSAP was a DIA program to study UFOs and the paranormal. They did a lot at Skinwalker Ranch, kind of what made it what it is today, popular. you know Robert Bigelow funded it through NIDS and eventually got the contract for Ossap which was an official DIA program so you know Eric Davis is this guy who's like a brilliant scientist and he had I guess some interactions but so he was working on this UFO program but this this this this Wilson Davis memo thing happened before that program even started

So Robert Bigelow set up something called NIDS, the National Institute for Discovery Sciences, and it was not a government program, but, you know, Eric Davis and Jacques Valet and Kit Green and Dr. Hal put off for all people who were involved with the intelligence community for decades, right? At least Hal and Kit and others, and they had connections in the intelligence community, and they knew how to operate within that world and get information. where they can and apply those kind of intelligence principles to the UFO phenomenon and ESP and things like that. So they're all studying this and Dr. Eric Davis gets involved and he he did work with like Air Force. You know, he's a physicist.

So he had been doing classified work with the Air Force and stuff, which I don't know if people realize how crazy that is. He's a crazy, brilliant physicist. And he is investigating UFOs for Robert Bigelow. and the National Institute for Discovery Sciences with these other really well-placed intelligence people. And he ends up getting a meeting with this guy named Admiral Tom Wilson. And the reason that Tom Wilson became well-known is because in 1997 Dr. Stephen Greer got a meeting with him in the Pentagon,

April 1997, with the former astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell. but more importantly, this guy named Commander Will Miller. And Commander Will Miller was a Navy commander. He was involved in special access programs super, super deep into the classified world. And allegedly off the record, he was involved with a special access program that was unacknowledged,

which is supposedly as secret as it gets, unacknowledged special access program. So they had this meeting in the Pentagon with Admiral Tom Wilson, who was at the time deputy director of the DIA and a rear admiral. So they arranged his meeting because Commander Will Miller had a very close connection with Thomas Wilson. And they said, listen, you know, you're the deputy director of the DIA. We have knowledge of these programs.

Here's evidence and, you know, and they try to give them evidence of, you know, alleged crash retrievals, crash retrieval programs. And all this being hidden and the cover-up. So they kind of have a meeting. It was supposed to be like 30 minutes. It ends up being like two hours. He keeps canceling meetings and is amazed because you have an astronaut, you know, Edgar Mitchell, the Sixth Man to Walk on the Moon is there.

And this Navy commander that he knows very well. And this doctor who happens to have these documents that were leaked to him that probably not legally, but he has them and they have program names. numbers on them and I'll go according to the story admiral tom wilson um says i don't know if this is true but i'm going to look into it so he gets back to one of the people that were at the meeting a few months later and says you know you're what you're saying is is is true there are you know he ended up tracking down one of these special access programs that is dealing with a UFO crash retrieval and reverse engineering and they

blocked him out and he was furious he's like i'm the deputy director of the d ia you know i'm j2 joint chief of staff i mean i should be running the program not this should not i can't be pushed out of it so he went to special access program oversight committee and spoke to people to um to say i you know i want to be read into this thing this is this is this is what they're doing is wrong. I should not be blocked out of this. And, you know, just I got to remind myself here, anytime you're talking about the Wilson Davis documents, you have to mention Juliano Morincovic. He's my good friend who has done an incredible job reporting on this, along with Joe Mercia, UFO Joe. So I just want to put that out there because they look up them

and you're going to find archives of information on this with way more detail than I can get into here. So, you know, Wilson reports back to either Edgar Mitchell or Commander Will Miller and says, you know, you're right. I search for these programs with all the power at my disposal as the deputy director of DIA and J2, join chiefs of staff. And I, they blocked me out. And so you skip forward five years to 2002. You know, subsequently, you know, Admiral Tom Wilson, was told like listen if you don't drop this you can lose a star or retire early and he back and he backed off because i guess he didn't want that and because he backed off maybe i don't know right

um he ended up being the director of the d ia shortly after wow um maybe because he complied maybe just because he's very diligent and p because admiral wilson to this day kind of denies this stuff but everything else and everybody else involved in the entire story which is many people and there's lots of evidence points the other way saying that this all this happened so five years later when he the year he retires he um he gets in you know uh an inquiry from somebody he knows named oak shannon saying you know i know this guy dr erc davis and he's you know work in the classified world he's brilliant he's well connected and oak shannon arranges a meeting between um tom wilson and dr erg davis and there's a pdf out there that everybody should look up called loose threads that gets it's like 200 pages

like a book written on this written by omega point and the hermetic penetrator um you know omega omega point is his name is daniel alizando you should have on here to talk about this entire thing because it's literally it's highly compelling and it explains how we got from you know where we were 30 years ago to here now right with all this um i mean that'd be great yeah it's it's incredible the work that they did it's very meticulous research um but so eric davis meets tom wilson according to this memo which are allegedly notes that dr eric davis took when he met with tom wilson in 2002 in los vegas so they meet at behind the e g and g building in a car and dr erg david

is interviewing Tom Wilson about, you know, his knowledge of these programs, UFO crash retrieval and, and reverse engineering programs. And Tom Wilson is, is allegedly, you know, stating the same story. Like, he says that he found, he found the program. The only reason that they contacted him back was because they want to find, they want to know how he found them. because they he ends up having a meeting with them and there's a corporate lawyer, the project manager and a security officer present because he goes out to meet the members of this program and they said, you know, like how did you find us? That's what they really wanted to know because they explained like several years ago. We were almost caught out by an audit and it almost compromised the entire thing.

And, you know, they have, they said yes, it's, it is a UFO program because Tom Wilson was expecting them to say no it's just a cover where this is actually just you know foreign technology or advanced technology and we're using UFOs kind of like a cover kind of thing he that's what tom wilson's expecting and they're like no it's not this technology is not made by human hands it's and they had intact craft not just not just like pieces of metal from a crash intact craft um that they can't they just can't break the technology it's so compartmentalized that they can never make real progress on it so every you know seven or eight years they revisit the program initiated again see if they can make any new discoveries with what they had and the really

incredible part of this is is what some of what david grush who i mean if you look at this guy's credentials you know david grush came out in his article with uh leslie kane and ralumontall in the debrief that he's a whistleblower who was a air force veteran and is involved in you know with the NRO the national reconnaissance office which is like so crazy classified no um it's like one of the most classified you know intelligence apparatus is out there spy satellites and reconnaissance and um NGA which is a national geospatial intelligence agency and you know what's a it's a kind of a caveat in there is that in in the thing they're saying you know he was the uap guy for the NGA just the fact that NGA is doing UAP analysis is incredible within itself.

Yeah. But this guy's credentials are impeccable. And nobody has disputed his credentials at all. And, you know, this guy was involved with, with, with, for the UAP task force. He was like the lead investigator for the UAP task force. And he was trying to see if programs like this exists within the government. And he was involved in, in presidential briefing. So here's a guy who's briefed the president of the United States on UAP.

And nobody's disputing any of his his credentials. And he's saying that when he was doing his investigation with the UAP task force, which preceded Arrow, the All-Dame Anomily Resolution Office, which is now the new standing office for UAP investigations within DOD, he had people come to him that were part of programs they claim, and they provided him evidence, documents, and people are saying pictures. of of reverse engineering and crash retrieval programs. And when he began to inquire about those programs after finding out about them,

he started facing surveillance and, and his security clearances were being messed with. And so, you know, under the new NDAA language of 2022 or 23, he, you know, they were supposed to be whistleblower. blower protection. So he followed in a complaint with the intelligence community inspector general, you know, saying that for his inquiry into this, he was facing like reprisals. So that that kind of made it official on that intelligence community inspector general deemed his his reporting on this urgent and credible. Right. And he gave 11 hours of testimony to, I guess, different people in Congress

regarding these issues, which again are crash retrievals and technology exploitation programs that are based on UFO technology. And according to his testimony, which is all we have right now, because he has evidence, but it was submitted in to, you know, in the classified world. It's not for the public. But he went through official channels. He did it the right way. And now there's an internal investigation on all this.

And he's saying that there's intact craft. And again, just, you know, he did an excellent segment on News Nation with Ross Colthart, who really did an excellent job covering this. And there's a 40-minute interview available on there on a News Nation. You know, if you type of News Nation, David Grush, it's going to come up. And he's stating that there are intact crafts and occupants and all the evidence that he had he submitted. to the proper channels for internal investigation. And that's currently ongoing. And as a result of that,

there's talks now that Tim Burchett is a congressman. He's participating in putting together an oversight committee congressional hearing that's going to inquire into this. Wow. You know, how much of that's going to be classified and what the public is going to get is a question. But we've seen more out in the public than I ever expected. And what's really crazy is,

that what I was talking about with the Wilson Davis memo and, you know, is saying the same things that David Grush is reporting, right? And I, you know, when the Wilson Davis memo thing was kind of going about before it went really, really public, Louis Alando made a statement on Fox News with Tucker Carlson when they were talking about recovered objects and, you know, does the U.S. currently possess? materials from UFOs. And Lou Alizondo has the famous line simply put, yes, he believes, right? He can't say he knows it for a fact because, you know, for whatever, you know, plausible deniability, but what he believes simply put yes. And when Lou made that statement, you know, again, I was talking to Dr. Eric Davis at the time. So I said, you know, can I get on the record comment about what Lou said, you know,

that the U.S. government's in possession of UFO. materials because back then this was like 2019 it was a huge deal we're much further now because of all this even in such short a period of time right but but back then this was like whoa lou elizando's you know saying this and so i asked eric davis for a public comment i said you know i clearly said this is for public use you know a statement from you regarding lu statement and his you know i'm going to paraphrase here but i made a graphic it's on my twitter and wherever else you know he said you know, Dr. Eric Davis says, you know, lose statement about the U.S.

being in possession of crashed UFO objects is 1,000% correct. But then he corrected it. He said, wait, hold on. No, put this for the public statement. And he included crashed and landed, which matches exactly what Grush is reporting on now in 2023. Right.

And these reverse engineering programs, Would that be similar to like what Bob Lazar reportedly was working on? So we don't know 100%. There's correlations and I have to say for the record, Dr. Eric Davis has his own opinions of Bob Lazar and that's the whole thing. So there's controversy even within that. But I think somewhere within the Lazar kind of research, he said that he's not sure, I think,

but there was some kind of thing talking about what those crafts were found during an archaeological dig. And so, but could that qualify as landed, right? Whose are they? Why are they there intact left for us to find or, or however that happens? I don't know. You know, Jacques Valet has called some of these places like the gifting fields, right? Has this potentially been seeded technology by non-human intelligence for us to find,

even fragments, right? Like even crashes. Could that have been a coordinated effort for us to find it and try to recreate it, right? Right. For what purpose? Who knows? Some people speculate that it's for nefarious purposes, like, oh, we're going to create weapons and kill each other or we're going to make a great technology and heal the world,

right? Nobody knows. Right. Who's to say? Yeah. And I remember seeing clips from Grush that he didn't disclose, like, direct personal experience. Do you think he has some experiences that were disclosed privately through the whistleblower program that he didn't disclose to the public through that News Nation interview? Well, because it's what he was talking about and the IG, the inspector general intelligence community complaint that he put in is currently under investigation.

So I think part of what he's saying is he can't publicly disclose even some of the details of the reprisals because there is. It's under investigation. So he can't compromise the investigation by reporting anything else in what he said. Right. And I think that has to do with more of the treatment that he's gotten and things that have happened with, you know, him being involved in this. Yeah. And how do you view the intersection between David Fravers account and these tick tax that have been reported on the record from different military personnel, Grush's account, and then your personal experiences through CE5? Is it possible that some of these entities, experiences, crafts are of different intelligence?

Are they of, are they all of the same thing? How do you reconcile that? What do you think? Yeah, my personal opinion, and because even during some of these different experiences, I've felt different like signatures or they had different kind of qualities to different experiences. So I think even during like a C.E5, you can have different types of encounters within that just alone. and within the entire UFO phenomenon, I think my personal opinion is that

we're quite possibly dealing with a number of different intelligence, whether that means some are extraterrestrial, some are interdimensional, some are extrademential, some people that report some kind of entity encounters actually something that has nothing to do with UFOs but is a spiritual or metaphysical entity. I think that, like,

that's why we need to investigate this so seriously because these experiences are ongoing they've been reported some have been documented well and we don't truly understand them now i think that there may be some programs that could say otherwise because they have bodies and they can determine x y z from that and we're you know we're not being told um right which is kind of wrong in my opinion at the same time they're telling people that this doesn't exist you know it's like really loaded it's like telling somebody who's had like an experience with racism at work that they didn't really experience that or like a victim had an experience and say that never happened. Right. So wrong.

Especially when they have evidence that those things do occur and have been occurring. And then they still intentionally are sort of gaslighting the people that have experienced it. I mean, think of the damage that does psychologically. And then you're training the rest of the populace to follow suit. Like that is so wrong. Yeah. And there's a lot of things that are happening simultaneously, right? Where there's, you know, people like you that are having C-5 experiences.

There's people that are having abduction experiences. There's people that are having schizophrenic episodes that are completely figments of their imagination. There are people that are having military experiences, experiencing craft, people that are seeing entities. And people that, I mean, I think that there's also, there are programs that, like, we know that we have psychotronics. Right, the U.S. government and other governments. So there's also... What do you mean, psychotronics? So psychotronic weapons or non-lethal's is the euphemism are technologies that can alter

your mind through radio waves, frequencies that have nothing to do with UFOs. Right. That are part of this mix, too, part of disinformation. Right. So it's like you have all that's a... So it's all happening. It could be different types of entities, different types of intelligence, alternate reality, interstellar experience, all potentially happening simultaneously, that people in the general

public are all trying to group as one thing. And by attempting to group it as one thing, it's almost easier to discard it altogether because they're inconsistent with each other, even though they could be separate things altogether. Yeah. And then you see like infighting in the fields, like the UFO people don't deal with the psychic people, the ESP people. That's changed now. The new generation of researchers are way more open-minded. I think they see the connected dots or that they're not connected as much as people are like to say right right and you know and but there's also like in the argument that that this there is some kind of singular aspect to all these phenomena and it's misleading us all and you know so it's there's it's like kind of all the above man

and I don't want a spiritual component and so many different things there's a historical component people looking at the pyramids and all of these things that are happening simultaneously that is causing a lot of frustration in the community in fighting. Yeah. But the ultimate consensus is that there's something that is existing outside of our consensus reality that is still very real. Yeah.

Yeah. That's wild. Yeah, it is. It's, I mean, again, I think, you know, that's why, you know, I say kind of like the transformative quality of, of this. It's not, you know, even, you know, having an encounter is one thing, but, you know, even, you know, looking into these realities, and alter your perception, right?

So like if you're a truth seeker and you're like taking this seriously, you can also kind of open your mind like in the positive sense, right? Like forget about the negative stuff, the implications for a minute and just say, I think this these things have the ability to open our minds and and make us think bigger and broader and maybe in that get closer to truth. That can be scared for a lot of people. It can. to say, hey, our present reality, there could be other realities or extensions of our reality.

And that's a lot to handle. And it's something Lou Alizando said, too, is like, you know, what if you were told that basically everything that you were ever taught was not true? Religion, school, everything you learn in school and religion's all wrong. And, you know, that's so destabilizing. Or isn't the whole truth. Right, right, right. It's a misperception or, you know. You know, and I imagine unleashing that upon a populace or, you know, telling the world like, hey, there's these entities that can come in and do whatever they want.

They can read your mind. They can influence your thinking. They can abduct you. They can abduct you. So, you know, that's a kind of really heavy thing. Like, are we ready for that? But at the same time, if it's reality, why would we not be better off informed? Right.

And who's a government or a guy in a suit to tell you, hey, you can't know all the reality? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's like, that's, that's not right. Yeah. Well, you got to get to work. Yeah. Yeah. But this was, this was wonderful. I really appreciate it. I know that there's from the general population and me being sort of like a lay person that's not in the community, there can be a lot of like skepticism and judgment and closeness for all the reasons that we just mentioned. And I just want to say, I'm very impressed and grateful for your bravery just to like speak about this and sort of share your experiences and taking the time and patience with me to sort of explain the things. you've been with, you know, considering I don't really know too much. Yeah, well, I appreciate you being open to and listening and taking things into consideration. Yeah. You know, because it's, it's, you know, in the UFO world is like a little bubble. We can rant at each other in an echo chamber all day. But unless other people are willing to engage and participate in the conversation, it's not going to go anywhere.

Absolutely. You know, and, you know, thankfully with everything going on, we're seeing more of that happen. And, you know, people like you are participating in opening that up. Absolutely. Thank you. Well, thank you for taking the time. as things unfold in the future, which I'm sure that they will. I would love to have you back.

We can talk about it more. Yeah, for sure. I'm always in town, so to speak. Amazing. Thank you, brother. Thanks, man.