Camp Gagnon - Why ALIEN DISCLOSURE Is Happening Now & The Truth About Varginha w/ James Fox

Episode Date: December 9, 2025

James Fox, creator of The Moment of Contact, sits down at CAMP to reveal the deepest secrets of the UFO phenomenon. From the most famous mass sightings to high-level government cover-ups, James lays out the compelling evidence that the truth is already here and disclosure is imminent...WELCOME TO CAMP! 🏕️Shoutout to our sponsor: Mars Men, Morgan&Morgan and BlueChewFor a limited time, our listeners get 60% off FOR LIFE AND 3 Free Gifts at Mars Men when you use code 'CAMP' at https://mengotomars.com👕🧢 Use CHRISTMASCAMP at checkout for 17% off when you shop at https://camp-rd.com/collections/christmas🎟️ 🎫 Comedy Tour Tickets Here: https://markgagnonlive.com🎩👽 Daily Dose Of History Here: https://www.dailytodayinhistory.comTimestamps:0:00 James Fox Is At CAMP1:57 How James Hears of Varginha9:45 Reason For Disclosure18:09 The Calvine UFO + Men In Black30:20 Grutsch Enters Skiff33:43 Calmness During Encounters36:47 Zimbabwe School UFO Sighting42:53 Similar Warnings + Truth Serum50:22 UFO Truth In Pop Culture56:42 The Phoenix Lights Governer1:10:27 Real vs Fake Witnesses1:16:10 Allagash 4 + Travis Walton Story1:26:59 James Personal Experience1:35:25 Getting Into UFO Film Making1:41:54 Lonnie Zamora’s Eye Contact w/ Alien1:43:53 President Nixon’s UFO Interaction1:54:02 Logan Paul’s Secret UFO Video2:03:28 Disclosure Is Coming2:09:07 Working In The Field + Stopping Misinformation2:12:06 Varginha Neurosurgeon’s Alien Interview2:16:53 Religious Aspect of UFO’s 2:19:35 Are Aliens Peaceful?2:23:42 Humans Are Barbaric2:26:40 Aliens Stopping Nukes2:30:40 Race to Reverse Engineering + Bob Lazar2:34:32 Moment of Contact (December 22nd)#podcast #foryou #mystery #history #crime #alien #knowledge #education #foryoupage

First time in history of the phenomenon that we have firsthand eyewitness testimony of direct communication with a captured alien in custody. This is James Fox, and he is the UFO documentarian. This is the man behind some of the most groundbreaking UFO films ever made, and he is here to pull back the curtain on cases that shake even-seasoned investigators. If you are a UFO skeptic, I'm telling you, this is the episode for you. From 1996, the Virginia incident, when the entire tax... Hound saw a craft crash and military officials were literally talking to each other like,

no, there might be aliens out here. Two, never before heard audio from witnesses, surgeons, and insiders who claimed that they actually handled the beings themselves. If I got my hands on the definitive piece of footage, I'd have something to worry about. No question. When you say the definitive piece of footage. Footage of a captured alien? And that exists.

Oh, no question. And you've spoken to people that have seen it. Yes. Multiple people. We will explore James's very own UFO encounter, his method for separating truth from noise And why high-level figures from Jimmy Carter to President Gerald Ford privately admitted, he might be honest with. We're talking about Spielberg cameos, astronauts hinting at hidden contact, Bob Lazar's lingering

questions, nuclear era sightings, and what disclosure might actually look like and when it might happen. James Fox has spent decades getting the stories that nobody else can. He's probably talked to more UFO experiencers than anyone on Earth, and today he's sharing all of them with us. So, sit back. Relax and welcome to Cap. James Fox, how are you?

Good. Thanks for having me on. Thank you so much for joining me in my tent. I like it. Yeah, this is a warm tent. Thank you. I appreciate it. It is. Deep in the... As far as tents go. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

In the Adirondacks, we're far away from civilization. Not in Brooklyn at all. No, no, no, we are far. This is literally going to be intense. Exactly. Exactly. I'm a really big fan. I've been tracking you for a while, and I've spoken to many people that have spoken about you. And as I said before, they're all...

they're all everyone speaks very highly of you and uh your work i think has because i owe him a lot of money that'll do it yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and then the tune will change a little but um no i'm just i'm a really big fan and i think the way that you tell stories around this topic is probably the most effective i think in sort of like the whole uap disclosure community just the way that you sort of break down information and sort of, you know, kind of paint the narrative I think is really easy for lay people, you know, like myself that are not, you know,

reading secret leaked memos and stuff, just to be able to get up to speed on everything. And you've done a bunch of documentaries that have kind of highlighted different aspects of, I guess, of the phenomena. And the one that's coming out, when is it coming out? December 22nd. Amazing.

This is about kind of a follow-up to this incident in Brazil. Yes. They call it the Roswell of Brazil. The Roswell of Brazil. This is one of the more, I don't know,

it's very interesting and there's so much information around it, but it feels more real, in a sense. Like the amount of eyewitness testimony and the way people describe the incident feels like, I don't know, sometimes you hear about stuff

in America and it's like, okay, there's one memo where there's like a line, but this is a whole community that basically was involved in this event. And you're going to have to help me the pronunciation, the Barzina incident. Can you explain more or less what this is and how this came across your radar and what made you interested in in the first place? Absolutely. So let's start off by saying, I don't expect your audience to believe anything I'm about to tell you. Because if I are you, I wouldn't. Fair. Okay. Having said that, I was making my second UFO documentary in the late 90s.

It ended up being called Out of the Blue. I never have a title for my films when I start. The title comes to you at some point. You'll know when it's like the right thing. And what I do at the beginning of every film project, I don't do like big intricate proposals or like, you know, whole multi-pate. I do broad strokes. It's like, okay, usually on a chalkboard, it's like, all right, let's look at this case, let's check out the Bentwater's case,

Phoenix Lights, 1997. It kind of map it out that way. And then we just target those particular cases, and then we stitch it together at the end. And we're going through the various ideas, And I was working with this guy who's British. He was a former BBC correspondent. His name was Tim Coleman.

A lot of respect, super intelligent, diligent researcher. And he's like, oh, mate, I think we should do this case in Brazil. These fucking live aliens walking around him. And I just thought to myself, oh, my God, this guy's crazy. Like, I'm going to, I think I picked the wrong partner. I really did. And not only did I not look into it. When I was making my second UFO documentary, I refused to even read one thing about it.

And why? It just felt too outlandish. It's impossible. There's no way a fucking UFO can crash and live aliens be walking around the town and the whole world not know about it. Right. And in my opinion. So I'm not going to waste one second on garbage. Like that's literally what my position was.

And fast forward probably. And I refused to look into it. And I said, Tim, that's the worst idea ever. I'm not touching that thing with a 50-foot cattle prod. You know, forget it. And he was really pissed off of me at the time. Like, he took it a little personally. So fast forward, like, probably at least 10 years, I'm saying.

And I'm going to Brazil. I got invited Brazil on a film I did. I know what I saw. It was a two-hour history channel special. And a buddy of mine, Jeff Saganzky, was very high up in the entertainment industry. He's been very instrumental behind the scenes of, like, helping me promote my work, but without his face on it, like, very quietly behind me. And there was reasons for that.

But he goes, oh, James, you're going to Brazil. Oh, my God, you've got to look into the Virginia case. And I was like, oh, my God, not this case again. This again. I was like, but I had a lot of respect for him. And he did a lot of amazing stuff for me behind the scenes. So I lied to him and I said, Jeff, yeah. Yeah, when I get there, I'll look into it for you and I'll report back.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, click. Yeah, I'm not going to waste one second on that case. Then I arrive in Brazil and I just happened to be in this place called Baroibi, which is like, apparently there's like this island right out the coast that you can see it. And there's like this really poisonous snake that its venom is worth a lot of money, but they'll, like, poachers will go and it's off. It's not allowed.

And no one's allowed on that island, but you can see it from the shore. And I'm sitting there and Stanton Friedman, the nuclear physicist, the guy that pretty much put Roswell on the map, along with a couple of other people, talking with Stanton. And we're commenting on this, like, poisonous snake. And some of the locals are like, yeah, some poachers go out there. and then the snakes drop out of the trees. And there's a bunch of dead poachers and we're just like, oh, my God. And then it was like, someone's like, well, you know, there was a guy, a military officer

who allegedly handled the alien here in Virginia who also died of some sort of bacterial thing. And I was like, oh, God, here was this case again, right? And Stanton, and I was like, come on, Stanton. He was like, you don't know about this case? And I was like, well, yeah, I know about it, but come on, like that. And he goes, not so fast, James. And I had a lot of respect for this. A nuclear physicist.

He's really smart researcher. He just so happened to be in the area when it happened in Brazil. And he met a bunch of the witnesses at the time. And he goes, don't dismiss this case. You should look into it. And that was a turning point for me. It's like, oh, yeah, I know I'm going to debunk it. I know it's going to turn out to be a bunch of hogwash, but I'll look into it.

Finally, after 12, whatever it was, I said, okay, I'll look into it. And Stanson just happened to be there? He was invited as well. He was invited as well to this event. I see. Yeah. And so, yeah, sorry, I meant to mention that. Yeah, we're as panelists on this one event.

I see, but he was there during Virginia. He was in the area, either like months after or like, yeah, but he met a bunch of the witnesses. Like he was there and he's like, oh, yeah. He goes, I think this is going to be the Roswell of Brazil is like a lot because so many people saw something. Right. Like military activity, the creatures, the UFO in distress. Like, I mean, it was like a lot of people. had a little piece of the puzzle.

Or like, oh, my cousin was involved. Or my mom saw this. Or I had people working at the hospital that night. Like, holy much, shit, something went down. So I started looking into it. And the more I looked into it, I was like, shit, this might have happened. Right. And so probably two or three years into it.

I got an interview with this military general, Brazilian military general. I was with my buddy, Marco Le Al, he's French. He's like, we're like part of it. And we get this interview with Jose Carlos Pereira, and he's a Brazilian general, Air Force general. And he's like, before the interview, he's like, hey, you know, we could talk about this, we could talk about Claris, we could talk about 1986 UFOs in Brazil.

You mentioned Varginia, and this interview's done, and I'm walking out here. It's like, what the, what? So I was like, that's weird. Yeah. Why would he do that? So we do the interview, and in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, I'm thinking, when the camera stop, I'm going to really pin this guy down.

You know? And so we do the interview and he talks about all the things he's going to talk about. And at the end, the camera shut down and Marco was right there with me. And I was like, looked him in the eyes. And I said, come on, please. General, please. What's going on? Like, why don't you want to talk about this case?

Like, did it happen? He's getting his affairs together because he's got a driver waiting for him. Excuse me. And he's like. He gets his briefcase and he's getting his stuff together and he's clearly like getting prepared to leave. And we're following him back. And I often describe it as like I was almost licking the dirt off his boots. I was begging him just for something.

I said, I swear on my life, there are no cameras rolling. There's no audio rolling. This is between the three of us, me, Marco and you. Tell me, please, about Virginia, please. He gets in the car, sits down, the engine's running, doors open. Marco now standing right there. And he looks up at us and he goes, it happened.

Click. Mark and I looked at each other like, like to have that level of confirmation and why would he make that up? Yeah. So that, that doesn't go in a movie, right? Because that's irrelevant.

And it's a third part. Of course. But for me and for Marco, that was like, okay, let's rock. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's go. You got military confirmation. You got nuclear physicists.

Yeah, they're like looking into it. Close friends being like check it. out. Yes. So all of this is culminating to you being like, okay. Yeah, I'm really starting to go shit. And you're telling this general, you're like, I'll never tell anyone. I'm not going to go on a podcast to share this information.

He died. He died. So now we can share it. Yeah. Yeah, he died. Bless his heart. Right. And his demeanor during this interview was pretty.

Oh, he's like, UFO's real. Like, this event happened and this event happened. And da-da-da. And the reason why we can't say is because, you know, you can't have objects of unknown origin whizzing around with impunity. Right. And for us to come forward and acknowledge that, it's going to scare the shit out of people. Right.

Like, and to be able to say, like, yeah, they're here, but we don't know origins and intent. You know what I mean? And they fly rings around our fastest jets. Because no governing body is going to want to report that to the citizens. Are you kidding me? Right. You guys pay us to protect you. And we can't, shall they turn to be hostile?

We have no visible means of defense against them. You think we're going to disclose that nature of information? Yes, what he said to me. He goes, hell no. No, we don't do that. Interesting. Why would you do that? How are we going to benefit by doing that?

Right. Because you reveal what you know, and in doing so, you have to reveal all things that you don't know. Yeah, you basically just kind of admit, you know, like, hey, we are not able to. We're not in control. We're not in control. Yeah, and that's a big issue for a government. It's very big issue. Yeah, you have rebellion and, yeah, that's going to, just in terms of statecraft.

That is a terrible admission. And it makes perfectly good sense because I remember one time I used to always say, and I still do in some respects because I believe it, but I understand a little more. I hate to say it, but there are certain national security issues regarding this topic. that does merit some levels of secrecy. And I can give you examples of that. But I had this general I was interviewing one time. And I was like, God, we were you really unifying. And the world bring the people together.

And there's this outside, you know. And he's just like chuckling to himself. Like, you're so naive kid. Like, you don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. Let me break it down for you. And then he kind of explained it to me. And I was like, shit, I never looked at that way before.

Yeah, I can kind of understand both sides in a way. Yeah. And I don't agree with it. but I understand. Right. And especially if you start talking about crash retrievals, just imagine, whether you believe it or you don't believe it. Just imagine for a moment it is true that we have this technology. Well, anyone will tell you the technology observed in the sky from these things exhibits something that's like so far beyond anything that we have or have had or going to have.

Like they can hover, they can accelerate out of sight in the blink of an eye, right angle turns at high speed. Like they go through the water, they go, no wings, no air disturbance, no visible prop. How do these things fly? Yeah. Could you put a bomb on that? If you could harden that technology? Well, that's how they think militarized this technology. And if we have it, we want to make sure we got, we figured out before the Chinese of the Russians.

Right, right? I can understand. I can understand the national security concern, right? Like, War of the Worlds, this, you know, radio broadcast that went off in like this like the 50s, I think. 30s, 38 or 39. So this is basically... Orson Well is hell of funny. Yeah.

People were jumping out of their windows. This is a great example, right? You're doing this, you know, like a, what is it, like a radio soap opera kind of thing. And it's a fictionalized alien invasion, but they only disclose that it was fictional at the very beginning. So people are tuning in. And they missed it. Five minutes in. Yes.

And it's like, okay, we have our ground reporter and he's witnessing these lights in the sky and this craft is landing in, you know, time square. And like, it's this whole thing. And people are in... panic. Rightly so. Totally. And it brilliantly done. I mean, it was really, really compelling. Right. Like, if you listen to it now, like a lot of thought went into that. I mean, it sounded real. And the reaction was equally as real. And I could understand that if this stuff is disclosed to a population, people would be really freaked out. So I understand this

push for disclosure, but like any type of, you know, classified, you know, government document, I don't know, from a state level, you have to think, like, does the public benefit from knowing all of this, right? Like the JFK files or the Epstein files or whatever else it is, it's like, look, every empire does things that are, you know, morally questionable. Do you guys really want to know everything? Do you really want to know what kind of backdoor deal we're doing with some dictator in order to get oil rights or something like that? It's like, basically they're saying it's better if you don't know. And of course, I understand the disagreement on this. But, Jacques Valet said that something really interesting to me years ago, because I was like,

because I'm really curious by nature. I'm just a curious person. I said, when I get to the of the things, right? When I was tenacious. I mean, a lot of, I have a lot of deficiencies, but curiosity is not one of them. I just really want to know. And I was like, shock, like, why the secrecy? Like, you know? And he goes, James, think of it this way. Think about it, like, it's more of a question, no, less of a question of what we know is more of a question of what we don't know. And it really, like, struck a chord with me. It's like, oh, we can admit what we know, but that's going to open up all these other.

Could you imagine, like, if they stood up and said what they know? Right. And then all of a sudden there's going to be 100 million questions flooding in from around the world because, you know, the American government, sure, we, America represents a very small percentage of the world population, but the implications are global. Yeah. So it's like it affects every religion, I mean, ontological shock like to the max. Right.

And then America is going to start making statements that we have the stuff. It's real. We're not alone. Well, you better cough up some evidence, right? So what are they going to do? Are they going to give us the technology? Are they going to show us the bodies? How are they going to do it?

Are they going to say, well, here, we're going to give you some photographs of some recovered craft. Or then they're going to say, well, that's AI. We don't believe that. We need to see it. And then it's like implications are global. So do we bring a whole panel of international scientists to come examine it in a lab and confirm, yeah, I see. saw it and it's real and Americans do have it, or do they bring out a body? How do they do it?

And how do they do it without having to cough up the goods? Right. Because they're not going to share that technology with China or Russia. Of course. It's just not going to happen. Yeah. And I was remember talking to military folks, intel folks. They're like James. It's never going to happen. We might confess that we're not alone. But then how do they prove that without coughing up the goods? It's a really complicated situation. It's way more complex than I ever Imagine. You can't just get the president of the United States, which has to, half the country hates, right? No matter who it is. And so he's going to get up and say, hey, my fellow Americans, it has been brought to my attention that, you know, we're not a lot. Whatever, right? However he says it. All right, well, where's the proof? What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because I got to tell you a story. Imagine you're sitting in your house. It's cold outside. It's a little snowy.

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Well, let's get back to the show. And then there's also like an inverse. element of the disclosure argument where it's like if this is brought up without any sort of definitive proof because we don't want to reveal all the tech, et cetera, that you're going to have a contingent of the UAP community, the disclosure

community saying, oh, this is a sci-up. Totally. Like, aliens are actually fake. This is not real at all. And this is a, you know, a plan for a one-world government. Which I've seen people even like kind of flirting with now. They're like, oh, they're going to do disclosure, but it's going to be a fake disclosure. And you're like, all right. So there's a whole contingent of the community

like pushing for disclosure, but then once it happens, it's actually not real. Well, so, you know, I see this online all the time, man, I see people accusing like Lou Alizondo or Chris Bermello, who I know these both very well. I go to their homes, meet their wives, like, you know, hang out. And I sit there and I'm like, okay, so how do I know this is in a sciop? Because everything that they're saying aligns with my 30 plus years in the field. Like I've been around the world, China and Russia and Australia, Africa, South America. You're, I'm all over investigating the phenomenon. Every single word they say aligns exactly with my research in the field, right?

So I'm like, okay, well, they're not saying anything that's ringing any alarm bells for me. No red flags that I can see. This is exactly if I was going to disclose and I was in their position. In fact, some of it's even greater detail. And I'm learning from it. So that's why I support that movement because what are they saying? That's not true. I mean, they use the threat aspect, but the only reason why they do that is because I can see

attention of Congress. Because if you have the Tic Tac, for instance, right? Like, if that had a Russian flag on it, it would be all hands on deck. Right. It doesn't have any identified markings on it. But if it did. But you get the attention of Congress like, hey, you know, we're in these flight range areas or maybe over super secret military installations, housing nuclear weapons, and you've got these unknowns coming and going at their will. And we can't do anything to stop it. That is a national security. What is it? Well, it's not displaying any hostility now, but is it, are we under surveillance? Like, who is this? Yeah. And we need to know those things. I'm curious, how do you approach this from, because I, at least in speaking with you

and seeing some of the docs, like I feel a resonance where you kind of approach things with like a healthy skepticism, but a vigorous curiosity, which is sort of how I feel, I think. And I don't want to sort of, I don't want to, you know, misaligned the way that you actually feel. But I look at different pieces of information and evidence with different levels of scrutiny. So like government docs, I find interesting and more compelling. I find personal testimony very emotionally moving, but difficult to verify because it's anecdotal. And then there's like the whistleblower contingent that is kind of both. So I'm curious when you're looking at the plethora of, you know, evidence and different pieces of information, how do you try to wrap your head around it and what do you

find to be the most compelling evidence for, you know, the existence of these sort of anomalous objects. So, I mean, what I know, obviously, what's in, what's what we have access to among civilians, right? Stuff that's leaked out. Stuff that slip between the cracks. And believe me, some stuff has, but the vast majority has not. It's unbelievable. The better the evidence, the more compelling the data, the less likely the public's ever going to see it. And that's just around the world. We have radar confirmation, right? Let's come out.

Let me pick a case. I mean, I'll pick this one case. It was 1986 over Alaska JAL flight. There were two pilots, and they had a very dramatic encounter with a colossal-sized UFO. I mean, it was just huge. And there was an FAA official, John Callahan. He had kept all the radar data.

The CIA tried to shut it all down. They had a meeting and they confiscated everything, but he's like, I kept copies. And he kept copies of everything, the voice recordings or the during the encounter, the radar, the radar ground radar, the planes radar, like, yeah, at all. That's pretty compelling data, right? I mean, you can just say, oh, that's all anecdotal. No, it's not, actually. You've got two witnesses. You've got all the radar data.

You've got the sound recordings, like, you know, missing a photograph in that particular case, but very compelling data. So you've got credible witnesses to that. Incredible witnesses that are pilots. It's a very long duration of the sighting. The government tries to squash the whole thing. And so that's one. Then we've got photographic evidence. I mean, I'll give one in particular that we can talk about right now if you want it.

I think it's one of the best photographs ever. And it was buried for over almost, I mean, 30 years. Is this Nick Pope? Yeah. Well, this is the Calvin 1990 UFO. And I had heard about that almost 20 years ago. Probably was 20 years ago. And because I was like, I pulled Nick Pope aside.

And I've been interviewing Nick Pope since he was still. the MOD in the late 90s. So Nick and I go way back. So I pull Nick aside and like, Nick, oh, what's the coolest case you ever investigated, you know? And he'd be like, oh, there's this one case in Scotland and six photographs and a military jet and broad daylight points of reference to witnesses. I'm like, oh, where's that photograph?

He goes, oh, we made a big poster of it. We just had it on the wall at MOD. And they're sitting there telling us, yeah, there it is. Yeah. And what makes this photograph so extraordinary is it's broad daylight, right? You got two witnesses. The MOD went at great lengths, and the Americans were involved as well. They squashed this story.

And the only reason why we have this photograph today is because there was a guy named Craig Lindsay. And the guy responsible for put it on, is in my film, the program. But Craig Lindsay was an R.A. press officer. And he gets a call from the local newspaper. and they're like, hey, what do you make of this, this UFO photograph or whatever that's making the round, he's like, what, I don't know what you're talking about. And so the local newspaper, like, oh, well, you haven't seen it? Like, no, I haven't, why would I have seen it?

No, I haven't seen it. So they make a print, big one, eight by 10 or whatever, and they send it to Craig Lindsay. He's like, holy shit. Like, this isn't any normal UFO photograph I've ever seen. Normally it's a little blurry, you know. This is like broad daylight, points of reference, military jet going around. And according to Craig Lindsay, there were six shots. And David Clark, if he's listening out there, thanks to him and all of his diligent hard work, this leaked out.

But so Craig Lindsay gets like a call to investigate. He goes and meets with the witnesses. He talks with them. And they tell him like, you know, this thing didn't make any noise. We were out, we were out hiking. They were actually terrified. It was like this diamond-shaped object, right, hovering silently, right over their heads, like really close. And they didn't know what the hell they were looking at, these two witnesses.

And then a military jet flies in and circles it. It goes all the way around it. And they, at that point, got enough courage and they took six shots. And so every shot, according to Craig Lindsay, and he's seen all six of them, is the jet, which is a Harrier Jump Jet, was in a different position going around it. So I'll tell you whoever's flying that. If you're listening, come forward, please. Whoever's flying that probably got some pretty good data. Yeah.

You know, at a good visual, can you imagine? Right. And so these two guys took their story to the local paper, Scotland Daily Record, I believe it was, and they were going to go worldwide with it, and the MOD stepped in. Craig Lindsay started doing some preliminary investigations, and then they just shut it down.

The two witnesses vanished forever. To this day, nobody knows where. where they are. The prints were confiscated. Yeah, the negatives of their photographs were taken. All gone. Everything's gone. Okay. And so, um, Craig Lindsay, who the local newspaper had sent him that one print and he kept it all the way through his retirement. And then David Clark, who's investigating the case, he said there was a redacted document that came out and said, such and such blank crossed out, redacted, uh, at R.A.F, you know, uh, Scotland. In 1990, R.E.F. Scotland. He just goes, oh, that's Craig Lindsay. So he contacts Craig Lindsay,

long story short. I don't know. It was one year or two years or how much time went by. Craig finds the photograph and decides they're going to go public with it. And that is why that picture, just give you an example. Like, this is the one they did everything in their power to shut it down. Richard Greaves was a friend with the two photographers that took it. And he just came forward recently. he's in my film the program and because we didn't know like where did they go? Why?

They wanted to go public and all of a sudden they're gone like that doesn't make any sense what happened? Yeah. You know? So Richard Greve hopefully I pronounced his name correctly

one time he's like mate you're not you're not pronouncing my name right I'm like sorry I think he's like it's Grieve not grieves, Greaves grieve. We're Americans, all right?

We do our best. We do our best. Why is a fucking ghost? That's what he said. So he said they're out on a cigarette break. A couple days after this whole thing went down, they're out of a cigarette break. At the restaurant, they worked at the hotel in Scotland,

not far from Calvin, I don't know, 10 or 15 minutes away. And this car rolls up. And two shadowy figures get out of the car. And he said the guy, driver stays in the car and he was smoking a cigarette with the windows rolled up. And these two shadowy characters come out, and it's pissing rain. and they were on their cigarette break

and they're all outside having a cigarette break and he said cigarette breaks over you go back inside and kept the two witnesses out there and they're like and he said he went inside and he was looking out and it pissing rain these two men in suits talking to the two witnesses he said they came inside he goes they were why he's a fucking ghost

he's like I don't know what they said to them but basically that was it they started drinking drinking heavily they were sleeping in their cars at work, and then they both vanished, never to be seen or heard from to this day ever again. Wow. Yeah. And that's the men in black. And I say the men in black because, you know, it's got a lot of baggage.

The MIB has got a lot of baggage. But if I had a dime for every time I've heard those stories prior to me reporting on them, I'd be a gazillionaire. And, but I was always like, you know, this man in, especially when the movie came out, you know, I call them men in dark suits. They show up around the world every time. They're always American, mostly. They're intimidating looking.

What organization are they with? Are they with OSI? I've been trying to find that out recently. I don't know. But they will show up, no matter where it is, particularly if there's good evidence. Really? They shut this one down. That leaked out.

Can you imagine how much data that we actually have? This one's, they did everything in their power to keep this photograph from coming out. Now, the gentleman that leaked it, you said his name was? Craig Lindsay, RIA press officer. Was there ever... Exactly. David Clark actually got him to leak it. Was there ever any recourse for these two gentlemen that?

No, they went pretty public and it was 30 years later. But he was concerned. Yeah. He was concerned. And to this day, Nick Pope, there's certain things he can say and certain things he can't say. Right. But you read between the lines of what he is saying. He's like, we shut this down.

We shut it down. Now, why does this not move people? Like, you hear about this story. There seems like there's, you know, at least corollary evidence with what's happening and then a photograph leaks many years later. But still, like, why is this? this not front page news? Why are people immediately not like, well, there's this? That's an interesting point. And I'm going to reference one time when I was interviewing some witnesses for the Phoenix Lights case. I don't know if your audience is familiar, but

March 13, 1997, there was a massive UFO flyover. There were multiple UFOs, orb-shaped UFOs, boomerang-shaped UFO was but roughly two miles across. I know this because I interviewed a lot of the witnesses, including the governor, Fife Simonton, at the time. And I went for 10 years investigating that case back and forth, back and forth, new witnesses coming forward constantly. I was like, man, this is a crazy, we had witnesses that were like out on the front lawns, lying on their backs, watching this boomerang-shaped UFO that was silent. It didn't have any air disturbance. They said, had I not looked up, I wouldn't even know it was there. They're looking at compartments and as it hovered. We thought it was going to land. I mean, it was just so big.

And it took several minutes to pass over as we lay under, you know. So I talked to the governor, five Simonton. He saw it when he was governor. Really? Yeah. And he goes, man, that thing is not from this earth. I said, he goes, I'm a, I'm a Air Force. You know, I was a pilot in the Air Force.

He goes, I said, well, how do you know? This thing was not from here. The governor goes, the size of the damn thing. Like, it was huge. You could land an airplane on it. So let me tell you. So I'm interviewing five or six hospice workers. that were out having tea under the night sky in March 13th, 1997.

And they said, we're just, you know, sitting outside having tea discussing our patients. And that thing flies over the top of them, right? And they sitting in the garden, they looked up, and they watched it. Like, they said it took a couple minutes and it just floated. They said it looked like a little city, little compartments. You can see the whole thing and it floated. and I said, did you guys think about grabbing the camera, calling 911,

getting in your car, chasing after it? Like, and they went, no. You didn't? No. What did you do? Well, we just went back to having tea. What? I couldn't wrap my mind around that.

But then I realized sometimes it's just too much to process. Like, did we really see that? Did we not see that? can we just treat that like a non-event? Like paralysis, like almost like, oh, you know, and then right back to what they're doing. And that was kind of a kind of a turning point for me because I'm sitting there going, you know, we got David Grush, that high-level intelligence official who testifies under oath in 2023. And I know people are frustrated because they're like, give me the details.

You can't be making these extraordinary claims and not provided the evidence. Well, he was provided evidence behind the scenes. Certainly the ICIG, Thomas Monheim was getting. the details, street addresses, like, and where's the due diligence with the media? Like, okay, so you don't believe the guy? Prove him wrong. Right. Get out there and do some digging.

Jack didily squat. Like so little reporting on what could be. And you don't have to believe it. Prove him wrong. That's what you should do. Contact the former ICIG. Talk to him about the details. What is it going to take to get these various people that are making these extraordinary claims

to come forward and give us the details needed to verify those? claims because the implications are so profound. Why would we not do that? Right. Why would we not try to create a platform for these people to prove them wrong? Like, let's figure out what kind of executive order needs to come down to give these guys immunity so we can tell the public the truth. Like, why aren't they even trying to do that?

To me, it's like, duh, like, let's get, let's get, it's too important of a story not to. What would proving them wrong look like? What would what? What, like proving someone like David Grush wrong. Well, you'd have to see, so you'd have to figure out how to create an environment to get those details. Because you're making these extraordinary claims and yet you're not giving us enough details to prove or disprove what you're saying. Right. And that's frustrating.

I get it. And people are frustrated. But I remind people, you know, we've had four open congressional hearings in the last couple of years. Four open congressional hearings. Prior to that, it was 1966. You know? like progress is being made. People are making these allegations.

Not one, not two, not three, multiple. Especially now with Age of Disclosure, Dan Ferris film, that's got 34 high-level military and government officials, including Marco Rubio. Right. Talking about a crash retrieval program. Hello? Like, are people not paying attention, or is this ontological shock? Like, it can't be, therefore it isn't.

Right. Yes. I don't know. And so, but he's, like, Rush is doing, like, closed hearings. Oh, 100%. Yes. talked to Burleson. I talked to Congressman Burleson the other day at the last congressional hearing that I attended. And I was like, did you finally get into a skiff with Grush? He goes,

oh yeah. Yeah, we did. He goes, I walked out of that with a different look on life. Really? Yeah. That's just happened. Yeah. That is fascinating. So it's happening. It's happening right now. And I remember talking to people that were in the skiff. I guess I could use his name because he's in the movie. Kirk McConnell, Senate Armed Service Committee, investigating UFOs in physical capacity, looking for the crash retriever program, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he sat in with senators. I know what senators were in this gift with him, and I know some of the details that were given,

and it's like street addresses. This is who has it. This is where it is. This is where the labs are. Yeah, these are the names. I'm working on it myself. I'm down in the lab. First handers.

Wow. Maybe 12 so far, maybe more. But people are first handers, not, no, my cousin. I'm working on it. You're looking at the actual. I'm working on it with my own hands, yes. Wow. I would think it's somewhere between seven and 12.

I didn't get an exact number on it. That's happening right now. Now, the people you speak with, I, speaking with people that have experienced UFOs in, like, very close capacity by their own testimony. They describe, like, feelings. They'll say, like, I saw this craft and I felt euphoria, or I felt this overwhelming feeling of, like, calm. Like, they just describe sort of, like, this sort of, like, ethereal kind of experience.

Yeah. I'm curious. In the people you spoke to, maybe in the, Phoenix case or any of these other cases. Do they describe a similar thing? Okay, so that's a really good question. And I'm going to give you an example of that. So I interviewed this guy named Trigg Johnson, and he was a pilot,

I think Northwest Airlines at the time. And he had a really good sighting because, you know, a lot of UFO sightings, you know, you get people, I saw this blurry, you know, mm-mm. This is like, this is a floating city, almost could hit it with a rock. I mean, it was right there, and I watched it of 10 minutes or whatever. Trig Johnson tells me this is extraordinary with his son. I interviewed him both.

And he goes, ah, one more thing. And he was like this rough and tough, pragmatic cowboy, you know, cowboy hat, like just super grounded,

nuts and bolts kind of guy. He knows what's going on in control. Yeah, and he's like, oh, there's one more thing. And I was like, I was like,

what? I don't want to talk about it like this. And I was like, no, Trigg, I want to hear it. Like, like, tell me.

No, no, no. And so I finally, I said, look, man, I'm going to take you seriously. This is what I do for a living.

I hear all kinds of crazy stuff. Bring it, give it to me. Oh, it said something to me. And he knew, like, the optics of that. Like, he knew, because he himself would be the guy that goes, oh, you know, this is a bunch of woo-woo. Yeah, you talk to animals, all right. Exactly, yeah.

And he said, and he said, no, it, ah, he goes, all right, it, it said something like that. And I was like, well, what did it say? And he said, we're here in peace. We mean you know harm. Something like that. Yeah. That was like, you know, that was the first time, like, I really got that level of communication with someone I really believed. And I was like, that I've heard, of course, I've heard a thousand more since then. But that was telepathic, this communication? And did he describe feeling like calm? Yeah. Yeah. We're not here to harm you. We're not, we say, we come in peace. I can't remember exactly what he said. But it was the implication was we're not harmful. We're not here. And this siding was in his aircraft or was he on the ground?

On the ground. 1997, March 13th. Wow. Phoenix, Arizona. That craft went from the north. Started off in Nevada, but it went all the way down through the state of Arizona, all the way down to the south. And then it disappeared off the Gary, or the Barry Goldwater Mountain Range.

Maybe about 9, 30, 10 o'clock, something like that. Anyway. So everybody at the time was out to get a glimpse of the hellbub. comment. So people were outside trying to look at the Hellbop comments. Why it was seen by so many people because they were like out there trying to get, you know. Interesting. So it was seen by thousands. It was a really good case, mass sighting. And you ask about like what cases I like to focus on. Like I like multi-witness cases. I like cases, particularly in broad daylight if I could get them, but multiple people like Ruiz Zimbabwe in 1994. There were roughly 100 school children out 1030 in the

morning. That object comes down. It lands. You know, and I remember when I was doing reporting on that for the phenomenon, I had this guy, Larry, you know, big gold chains, like he was helping, do the funny. He goes, you know, James, you mean to tell me, can you a UFO game down in the goddamn school? No, I'm not spending the dime on this case. I said, Larry, just stop, please, no, listen to the, because there was a Harvard psychiatrist by the name of Dr. John Mack, and he had gone there right after it happened, and he documented all these kids. I did an interview, and like, he did 66 kids.

That's why they always say it's 66. It was more than 66. I went there. I talked to the teachers. There were like 100. 66 went on camera. And I said, no, no, no, Gary, I know. I know because I heard about that case.

And that one I also dismissed because when I was working on my first UFO documentary in the 90s and the mid-90s, I was just naive enough, young and dumb enough to think, well, I get an interview with Steven Spielberg. You know, of course. Like, why not? and I had a mutual friend that I knew that knew him, Janet Yang, and she goes, well, you know, he actually said he's not going to meet with you, and he's not going to go on camera, but he does want you to know there's a landing case that happened in Africa

in Rua Zimbabwe at the school. You should look into it. And I thought to myself, you know, I mean, it came from Spielberg, right? But a UFO landing at a school and they came on, please, like, come on. Really? And the aliens came up. like the film? Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. So you're like, all right, this is... Well, yeah, I was like, yeah, I know, yeah, I'm not gonna... No, mm-mm. And I just, 10 years, I didn't even look into it for 10 years. Like, you know, because it can't be, therefore it isn't. Like, my whole philosophy was, how could you have an event like that? And the whole world did not know about it.

You can't have a landing at school. That's contact. Right. Right? So, no. And now I've learned to suspend judgment, just, you know, suspend judgment, listen to the witnesses and then draw my own conclusions. And from there, because every time I've dismissed a case, there are some cases that deservedly got dismissed, but I've learned like, oh, my gosh, I ended up doing extensive reporting on it. What's up, guys?

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So go to Bluetooth.com and try the promo code Gagnon, G-A-G-N-O-N, and you're going to get your first month free. All you've got to do is pay $5 for shipping. That's like a coffee, okay? So to skip your morning, cold brew, and instead get that hard brew for an entire month. Yes, that is at blucho.com. use the promo code gagged on and start laying it down like they deserve. Let's get back to the show. Yeah, this Impawai case is so interesting because it's how do you get 66 kids to lie

in such specificity? Yeah. Like, again, children have imaginations. I get it. But, you know, kids have sort of this sort of like, they have a kind of a raw honesty, right? Like I think about like, remember the balloon boy case? Remember this? Like there was a kid that.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. taken off in like this giant sort of like balloon thing and they flew around and then they found out that the kid was actually, you know. He wasn't in it at all. Right, but they thought he was in it and they were. Yes. And the way they disclosed it is that they're interviewing the family on TV and they're asking them like, oh, like how did this happen? You thought the kid was in it. But actually he wasn't.

And the kid basically just says like, oh, my dad told me to hide in the basement. Oh my God. So that it could be a news story. But he, the child is so honest and so innocent that his dad was basically trying to fake something in the kid. The honesty broke through. And in this case, you would imagine, like, one of the kids would be like, well, my teacher told me to make this up so that our school would be on TV, or whatever the rationale for making all of these children lie about the sighting. And it doesn't seem like any of them broke with what the narrative of what they saw was. So this is interesting because I, with the help of Randall Nickerson, I brought all the kids, a lot of the primary witnesses together for the first time in 20 years.

and we filmed for the phenomenon. And one of the witnesses, Emma, and I know there were others, she said, well, I've got to tell my husband. I said, tell your husband what? She's like, about the incident. I said, you're married and you have kids, and you didn't tell your husband about this? What?

You think that'd be first day, right? Yeah, like, for a second. Yeah. And she's like, no, I was just got tired of defending it. Wow. So it's like, you know, you're bottling that up, and everything that she saw 20 years ago that's on tape is exactly the same thing now and exactly the same thing today. You know, with everything to gain, sorry, everything to lose and nothing to gain. Like, why on earth this is like such a, you know, it's becoming a little more acceptable.

But paralleling that, one thing I will say kind of behind the scenes is that when I talk about close encounters of the third kind, you know, people look at me sideways, you know. rightfully so, I guess. I have to say, well, that doesn't come from me. The United States Air Force has been investigating these things, and they had Project Sign, Project Grudge, Project Blue Book, and they're the ones that categorized UFO sightings in Close Encounters of the First Kind. It's when someone sees a UFO.

Close encounter of the second kind, they see UFO, and somehow the UFO interacts with the environment, maybe burn marks on the face or landing prints on the ground or radar or photograph or whatever it interacts with the environment and then close encounter of the third kind and this is coming right out of the air force books okay this was dr jalen heinick the scientific advisor to the united states government and they broke it down close account of the third kind is when witnesses report entities connected to the craft and those cases are plentiful globally and that's coming and you look into the you look at the documents directly particularly

the ones that get FOIA or they were previously classified that are now out. It's plain sight, man. It's right there. So it's not me, you know, saying this. I mean, sure, I'm reporting on it as well, but this, the Air Force figured that out pretty quickly. The Zimbabwe incident, the children spoke with beings, correct? The telepathic, yeah. Right, but they saw beings. Yes. And they reported, correct me if I'm wrong, like environmental concerns. Yes. That was one of the big things, right? Better stewards of the earth. Right. Which is kind of a, recurring theme. Yeah.

It seems like with a lot of these sightings and like third, you know, close and our nukes off. Yeah. I'm curious, what do you, do you find that to be a common theme that comes up? I find that to be rather soothing quite honestly. Yeah, yeah, it is nice. Yeah, like somebody's looking out for us. Yeah, it ain't us. Smoke some weed, chill out for a minute, you know what I mean?

Just take a step back. Absolutely. It seems to be recurring, though. Yeah, yeah, you know, it's really funny because I interviewed this launch control officer. I always remember this. And I was like, no wonder why this guy's a launch control office. He has his demeanor that it was just like, he's so calm and centered and measured. Everything comes out of his mouth is like carefully calculated and he's calm.

And I said, my God, they shut the, you know, shut the nukes off. I don't know. One gone, what? That's like sending a message. And he goes, yeah, James, the message was pretty clear. I said what? He goes, well, it's like taking matches out of the hands of a baby. Maybe you guys shouldn't be playing around with these things, you know?

I always just really struck a chord with me, you know? Hearing that from the guy who was there watching his nukes get shut off. And you'll go if I'll come over the base, shut him off, and then it's gone. Yeah. You know, I can't do anything about it. And then, and this is another thing, it's like, these school incidents, there's landings at schools. Like, holy smokes. like, wow, you start looking into it?

There's a lot of them. Right. I mean, I covered the 1966 Westall UFO incident. Shane Ryan, thank you if you're listening for helping expose that one. But there were 360 plus kids outside. Where was this? Australia. Okay.

Right outside Melbourne, 1966. April 4th, I believe, or 6th, 5th, 6th, 6th. 360 plus people, including the science professor, the teachers, and all watching this disc-shaped object dart around in the sky over the school, Westall Primary School, and then it lands. And a handful of the kids, I interviewed them, ran over to where this thing landed and stood there in broad daylight with this disc on the ground. Like, what is this thing?

like right there, like almost walk over and touch it. And then it lifted back up again, turned on its side and shot off at extremely high rate. And there's a guy named James Kibble that took a photograph of Polaroid of it, probably the same object, just a few kilometers away, either day before or two days before. Yeah, I think it was maybe two days prior. It's also in the phenomenon. So, you know, I don't know. I mean, if I were trying to establish something.

level of communication, children are pretty benign. You know, I know our military generally shoots first and ask questions later. So, like, if I were, and I'm just speculating, but if I were to make any kind of peaceful contact, I probably would land at a school too. Right. Because you get shot up landing anywhere else. Yeah, you know what I mean? You might get a slingshot or something at a school.

Like, a kickball on the window, but you can live. Was there, was there contact in that case? Like, was there any type of communication? Well, when I was there, I went on a. big radio show in Australia talking about that case and one person called in and it's like, oh, there was an entity outside, but that's the only account. No, generally speaking, no, that was not contact. Interesting.

And a good one too. I mean, you know, can you imagine? And of course, the men in black or the men in suits showed up on that case and threatened the science teacher who just passed Mr. Greenwood. And I got Greenwood to come forward for the first time in history in the phenomenon. And then subsequently to that, Ross Colthart did an. interview with him and thank God because he's he's no longer with us. But he said, yeah, they came and threatened him big time. In what way? Do you just keep your mouth shut? If you want to keep your job,

we're going to destroy you, like we're going to say you're drunk, you're drinking with kids, all that, just all the above, just threatened him. And he didn't talk for 50 years. Wow. 50 years. And these are American men and black guys? Sometimes, like, for instance, with Virginia, there were a Brazilian-speaking person with two other foreigners that they assumed were Americans that didn't open their mouths. And so, but it would probably be at the direction of the American. I mean, they certainly, you know, are in control of the situation much more than, an exception with China and Russia. But the Americans pretty much dominate the global. The reason why I know this is because I've interviewed people from Tehran.

I've interviewed people in Africa and South Africa. It's all over the world. I can give countless cases. And I'm like, Americans again? Like, how did you even hear about it? Like Tehran Iran was in 1975 with General Parvice Jafari told me. And I flew him into Washington, D.C. to testify to the National Press Club back in 2007. And he was like, yeah.

And the Americans shut up the next morning. And the sighting happened like 2 a.m. How did they hear about that so quickly? How did they get there? Like, what were they doing? Americans? What do you make of that? I mean, granted, Tehran in 75, it's like pre-revolution, so it's probably easier to go.

Well, yeah, but they were also in Belgium in 89. I interviewed the Belgian General, General de Brower, Air Force General in Belgium. And he's like, oh, yes. And then, you know, the Americans shut up. And they wanted the radar reports, the radar tapes. And he's like, okay, well, give me an official request and I'll give you copies. they wouldn't do that because there's a paper trail. But it was like, oh, they're investigating that case too.

Like, they're there, there. What would happen? Bent Waters, England, 1980. I interviewed the deputy base commander, Colonel Charles Halt. I also interviewed the general on the base. And he's like, yeah, this plane flew in, American plane flew in, sanitized, exposed the witnesses to sodium panethol. It's some kind of truth serum.

And the deputy base commander was like, I didn't have, I don't know what the hell. This plane came in. They had control the situation. They screwed with my men. They did, you know, took whatever evidence they had. They were landing print. Like, evidently they took photographs.

Those were gone. Like, oh, they didn't turn out, you know. But so this is a global, they have a global footprint. A truth serum. Have you looked into that before? Well, I was just telling you what was told to me by the guy that was there. He just said that his men were given this truth serum, I guess, trying to find out what they really saw. I don't know.

Have you ever looked into this substance? But you said it was sodium. Sodium panethol is what I heard, yeah. Have you ever looked into that? No. It seems like a wild thing. Yeah, what did it say? Well known in pop culture under the name of sodium penithal, truth serum.

Efficacy is questioned. Wow. What a, I've never even heard of that. Yeah. That's what Colonel Charles Holt told me. Yeah. We should try some of that. Get some of that on the pod.

Run to the corner store. I don't believe in UFOs. It's all nonsense, okay? Get some sodium pentathlon here immediately. We're going to be ripping lines, dude. I'm so, that's fascinating. Yeah. I'm curious, have you heard of a case of any type of anomalous craft in a, I guess, a non-friendly country, like a North Korea or like a post-revolution Iran?

And what is the American intervention in that situation? I would have, I don't know to answer your question. I know there were cases in China and I never heard of any Americans being there. Interesting. Yeah, I didn't hear of it. It doesn't mean that's not the case. I didn't hear of it. Sure.

I don't know if they have a deal with them or not. not, but a landing case, Meng Zhao Hua in the black forest, I think. And it happened the same year that the landing case happened in Africa and the same message. Interesting. Yeah, being better stewards of the environment. Okay, I have a bunch of questions on that. But first, I want to ask, it's interesting that Spielberg is kind of the one that, like, low-key tipped you off to the Zimbabwe case.

And this was, you know, 90s. One explanation is right, he's like doing this film, E.T. And he's discussing, you know, extraterrestrial stuff. And at this point, there's been, you know, many, you know, extraterrestrial-type movies. So let me say one thing real quickly about Spielberg. That's relevant to what you're telling me right now. Yeah. Spilberg did Close Encounters, third kind. Guess who's in that movie?

Dr. Jalen Heineck who investigated UFOs in an official capacity for the United States Air Force has a came a came came came a came cameo in that movie. Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was Spielberg basically saying, and those files came to, though, even down Richard Dreyf's face being burned, that came right out of Project Bluebook files. Right. So Spielberg worked with the guy that knew. Right. And he put him in the movie as a little, as a little wink.

Yeah. There's also reference to like Jacques Valet, like his characters in the film. Absolutely. Sorry, I didn't interrupt you guys. But this is a guy that is well researched in the field, right? Which makes sense if you're making multiple movies about this. Billberg has Dr. Heineck in his movie. Like that's basically like wink wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

What do you make of like predictive programming in film and TV? You're familiar with this term? the idea of like putting things out into pop culture so as to either gauge the public awareness or public awareness to try to placate the public to try to make things seem crazy in science fiction or to maybe get people prepared for things. This is things I've heard in like sort of conspiracy world that people have talked about like, oh, men in black is a way to kind of discredit things that when we're saying men and black right now, people go, you mean Will Smith? Like talking about like a, you know, a hunched over a little alien guy. It's so absurd because we've seen it.

Yeah, that's why I don't like using the word men in black. I say it because it's got baggage. But I'm curious, like, if you have a perspective on, do these guys do research on films and pull stuff from reality to make great movies? Are they doing the movies intentionally in cooperation with intelligence services to try to inject things into public consciousness? I'm curious if you've thought about that. Yeah. So back in 19, two consecutive weekends in July of 19.

You had, because people always go, whoa, if UFOs are real, why don't they land on the White House lawn? They almost did it in 52. I don't know if you know about that case, but it was so intense and so many people witnessed and they scrambled military jets. This is over the Capitol, 1952, two consecutive weekends in July. You can Google it. UFOs over D.C. 952. They had a press conference about it. General John Sanford got up in front of the world.

It was the biggest press conference since the end of World War II. It was huge. And it was a big deal. Like, I mean, UFOs were buzzing the capital, big time, right? And they were shaking in their boots. Like, oh, my gosh, are we about to make conch? What's going on here? And we can't really deny it because too many people witnessed it.

You know, they scrambled military jets. They actually given authorization to shoot. Like, it was a big deal. I cover it in the phenomenon. And the Air Force didn't know what to do. So they convened a panel who was called the Robertson panel. probably January of the following year, 53, and basically consulted with the CIA,

it's like, all right, what do we do here? What do we tell the public? How do we deal with this problem, basically? And this panel basically made a number of determinations, but one of the things they said, look, we can't deny the existence or there's too much compelling data. What we can do is we can adopt, and referring to the United States Air Force,

we can adopt a policy of ridicule. So you make fun of those who claim to have seen them. And that really stuck. I mean, it was a very effective campaign. And I got to tip my hat to him as much as I'm upset about it. Wow, that worked, you know. Because what's so funny about, you know, an airline, you know, pilot reporting something that just doesn't make any sense, like, you know, I mean, all right, these things happen,

whatever. But to make fun of them, there's no incentive or career-enhancing move to come forward, particularly an airline wouldn't want to be associated to pilots and see UFOs. It's not good branding. Yeah, of course. So that was a very effective campaign. And as far as, like, movies being done that can gauge the public interest or awareness, I mean, I had a lot of people when Close Encounters of the Third Kind came out,

there were like people that were witnesses, like they felt validated. Like, oh, my God, that's exactly what I saw. What that happened to me is like, you know, wow. And honestly, I'm not exactly sure what Spielberg's objective was. I mean, he certainly was working with government. insiders in the sense that Dr. Heineco investigated in an official capacity, participated in that movie. It was a consultant.

Jacques Valet, his character was portrayed. You know, so there was a lot of truth in that movie. Lots of truth. And it was tremendously popular. But was the government behind? I don't know. I don't know. It's not out of the realm of possibility.

No, but I remember hearing about it might have been men in black. You could look it up, but they basically said to the, director or the producers, like if you mentioned Area 51, you're no longer going to have any of our support. Or Roswell with the bodies, Area 51. It was like, that's, we're not going to, we're not going to cooperate with you at all. Interesting. And they did anyway. Yeah, I heard about, I think it was men in black, but it could have been another one. But anyway, you can research it. What's up, people? We're going to take a break because we got new merch. That's right. It is the holiday season and the good folks over at Camp R&D have been cooking up in the lab. We got the Christmas.

Christmas sweaters with the aliens. We got the Christmas sweaters with the conspiracy vibes. You already know. I mean, this one might be my favorite one. A Christmas tree full of aliens, full Christmas sweater energy. And then, of course, if you just want something simple, you know, you bust out the camp logo tea with the little Christmas lights on it. Come on, bro.

Get cute for Christmas. Okay? It is a holiday season. All right? We're celebrating the birth of the Savior, okay? And what better way to do it than a cop a couple threads for the person in your life that you know that loves a campsite that loves hanging with us every single week? And right now we're running a promo through the holidays.

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out guys. We got all the camp stuff going until the end of the year. Check it out. Thank you guys so much for support in the show. I love you all. God bless and Merry Christmas. Like I almost wonder things like this, like the memeification of like alien culture. Like you go to Roswell today and there's like UFO Cafe and like trinkets and stuff. Come crash with us. Yeah, exactly. And it's fun. But I almost wonder if it's once again like kind of if we're under if we're operating into the premise that like these things are actual retrievals that the U.S. government is in possession of the memeification kind of dilutes the discourse, you know? Like it kind of makes it seem like, oh, yeah.

A little silly. Yeah, it's fun. It's goofy. Like an Area 51, you know, restaurant in Nevada, it's like, oh, yeah, it's a goofy thing. And I wonder if it's intentional, if it's allowed, if it's permitted because it sort of moves people off of trails. Or if it's just sort of, you know, a happenstance and people can't really stop it. And if that's just how humans operate, we memeify stuff. We kind of make things in the choice.

Or the truth comes. out in a joke, you know, it's like, it sort of adds levity to the situation and, excuse me, and I think people are fascinated whether they believe it or they don't believe it or maybe they're leaning heavily into it or maybe they're like me, like, well, I don't believe it, but I'm willing to look into it. But I think making light of a situation, I mean, I don't know if you're familiar with the Phoenix Lights case, but the governor initially set out five, seven, and remember he'd just seen himself, he does a press conference.

Well, he goes forward to the press and he's like, you know, we're launching an investigation. We're going to address this. We're going to get to the bottom of it. I'm contacting the Luke Air Force Base and the Department of Homeland Security. And then later that day, and I'm convinced to this point that this day he got a phone call, but he denies it emphatically. But he has a press conference where he has one of his aides dressed up in a little alien suit and makes light of the whole thing. And people were pissed. Like the witnesses were really upset.

In fact, when I was going to interview the governor, which I, everyone's like, you know, I, I always say if I have a zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero one percent chance of doing something, I'm going for it, right? And I was like, I'm going to interview the governor. And everyone's like, my partner's like, yeah, good luck with that. He goes, you don't have a snowball's chance in hell. I was like, well, I'm going for it. And he granted me an interview. And so, and everyone's like, well, what's he going to say? I said, who gives you shit? Let's go. And, and on my, and on my, and on my, way to do that interview with, yep, there it is, on my way to do the interview with Fife, I called one of the, one of the witnesses, Stacy Rhodes, who were fascinating, her and her daughter, Emily saw this. I mean, they pulled over, I think they pulled over the side of the road. There's an interstate 10 between Tucson and Phoenix, and there was that huge boomerang shape. She goes, James, I could have opened up a newspaper above my head and I couldn't have blocked this thing out. That's how big it was. And it took minutes to fly over. But in any case, I called her up.

I said, Stacy, and I'm going to keep in touch her. I was like, you're not going to believe who I'm going to see. And she's like, like, ooh. And I go, I'm going to interview five, so I'm in turn. Like that, she goes, oh, my gosh, you're going to, you know. And I said, is there anything you'd like to say to him? She goes, you're damn right, I would. You know, right?

Because after you pulled that stunt. So she said, you're damn right I would. And so I said, well, hold on. Let me, let me, let me record a statement. And then I'll play it for him at the right. time during the interview. So I wasn't sure what his intentions were the governor to tell me. I think what he wanted to do was he got a lot of backlash from that incident of making light of it, as you and I were talking about earlier, like, you're just making light of him and had his

a dress up as an alien, you know, when people were really pissed off, like it, people, very, very upset. And I think he felt like, okay, maybe I should address that. I wasn't sure how far he didn't go in the interview. And I didn't quite honestly care, but I wanted to get in the room with him. Now, just for timeline, the interview that you did with him. Ten years after. 10 years, okay. Yep. And so it was a 10th year anniversary was coming up.

And so I said, well, I'm not going to ambush him with this recording because she was like, I'm a jerked in you and I put you in office and I saw this thing. And you went up and made fun of every one of us. How could you do that to us? And da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Like she was letting it out 10 years later.

Like, you know, you know. And so I was like, well, I better not do that, right? Let me get as much as I can get out. out of this guy. And then I'm going to say, oh, by the way, you know, and he had a little uncomfortable, a little uncomfortable on his chair. When I said, oh, I, you know, 45 minutes into the interview, whatever it was, I said, I got this little message. It's one of your constituents and a witness to the event. And she just would like to, you know, ask you a question. If you know, I recorded it earlier today. He's like, oh, and he kind of adjust his seat a little bit, you know, and here we go,

like, ready to take this hit, you know? And press play, and he sat there. And I could see his brain processing. Like, fuck. You played the whole thing. I did. Yeah. And he sat there and he was like, processing.

I was like, this is going to go either way. I don't know what. This guy might just get up and be like, you know. No. Yeah. And he sat there and he listened to her and it sunk in. And that's when he was like, I feel you. I too saw that thing.

And I didn't feel that it was of this earth, of this world or otherworldly, I think is how he phrased it. And I'm sitting there, and it was one of the first times in my career where I was like, this can't be happening. So I reached down, I swear to,

I swear on my life. I reached down, and I pinched my leg. I did. I pinched my leg, see if I could feel like, was I dreaming? Like, did I just get the governor

to come forward and admit that he saw that thing too? Like, so I pinched my leg. And I'm like, I can feel that. I swear to God. So then I look at the camera. I'm like, the camera's probably not rolling.

So I look at the camera and I see the red light and the numbers taken away. I'm like, the camera's moving. And I'm not dreaming. Holy shit. I got the governor. The governor. Like, this is going to drop big, right? And it did.

But it was like, I think he just had this moment where like, just like, you know what? I get, you know, I'm just going to just whatever the consequences, yeah, let's go. You know, and he did. Wow. But he goes, he goes, you know, honestly, James, and we had a couple drinks a couple times. We hung out quite a bit,

and I figured he would lighten up a little bit, maybe he would tell him he got a phone call to him and shut it down, but he denies it. I don't know if I believe it. Because he was one minute, he was like, gung-ho, launch investigation, full transparency, next minute, it's all a joke, you know, blah, blah, blah.

You know, you saw the alien in the... Yeah, It's like with his lead aid is like, you know, the truth comes out and a joke. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's like, you know, it was aliens kind of thing. Which is so funny that this girl probably went to some Ivy League school. So anyway, so this story, this story, I think, sorry, I think Leslie Kane might have written an article. Excuse me about it, but it exploded.

I mean, it exploded. And they were contacting everyone, all the media was contacting Governor Simonton. And to his credit, he goes, nope, James is coming with. me James is the reason why I'm coming forward and he's coming when no matter what press I'm doing you're he's mandatory he's coming with me and I really admired him for that he was like this guy deserves the credit he approached me he got me to come forward and so I get a phone call I'm going on Tanginaver it's kind of funny yeah I get a phone call from at the time you know the Joe Rogan was Larry King yeah Larry King

King was Joe Rogan and he was like you know and I get a phone call and it was from Avriel Gallagher Excuse me And she's like Oh, this is Avrio Gallagher from Larry King, you know, CNN We'd like to invite you on the show And I was like, yeah, yeah, and pigs fly

Or I said some assinine response And she goes, excuse me? And then I said to us, oh shit, this really is CNN calling Keep pinching yourself. Pinch yourself again. Yeah, you know, I was like, oh my gosh, you know, so Anyway, anyway, but we ended up doing a bunch of public And it was a big, it was a big story but yeah

he made fun of it and he says he did it because people were panicking and he needed to add some levity you know yeah I can understand his position on the one hand it's like all right well let's just

kind of brush it off no I don't remember that could have been a turning point yeah in 97 and then not to mention you know I don't know when he's running for re-election but this comes up and they're like oh yeah do you want to vote for the guy that sees UFOs to this discredited point. It's like, yeah, okay, I have to push this down. And then 10 years later to be confronted with the sort of shame and humiliation that his constituents felt that he didn't back them up,

I can understand the sort of wave of emotion where he's like, yeah, I did sell all these people out. They saw something, and I said that I would investigate it and then I completely turned my backs on them, and now it's time to rectify that. I can imagine that's a difficult position to be in. You know, it's always best to tell the truth despite the consequences. that won't come back and bite you in the ass and people will respect you for it. Yeah. And I'm seeing that now,

people are coming forward. Right now with the crash case in Virginia, we've got this neurosurgeon who's coming forward for the first time in 30 years. But just on that incident, the Phoenix Lights, did you speak, you spoke with Larry about it? With Larry King. Oh, yeah.

What was his demeanor? Was he, I mean, I'm at he's the supreme skeptic. Oh, you know, So I did nine shows with Larry King. And a couple of them, thank you executive producer, Wendy Walker, who pretty much gave me the budget and said, what do you want to do? I'm on a satellite feed here. I want to fly this guy in here. I want this FAA official being in here.

And I was organizing all the shows. And I had a budget. I was like, oh, my God, this is amazing. Shut up. I was kicking ass. Like, you know what I mean? And we did nine shows. but maybe the second or third show in.

Pretty compelling information coming in. Had the governor with me. Went to commercial break. And Larry goes, shit, this stuff's real. I swear to God. Like off air. Yeah, off air. He goes, shit, this stuff's real.

Like, he was just coming to the realization. I had a colonel next to me. I had the governor. I had like, I had FAA officials. I had like, I mean, they were real serious people. saying like, yeah, this is fucking real. Yes, it landed at our base like this or that. And he was like, he had this look on his face to me.

The way I felt it was like, I am mainstream media and we missed this story. We miss this story. And then, you know, kept having more and more shows and more. And what was funny, actually, in retrospect, because Leslie Keene and I was contributing editor to the New York Times, just got a piece out right now. We had an event at the National Press Club around that time, 2007, and it broke the story in 2006 with Five Simonton

because it was happening in the 2007, it was roughly coming up on the 10-year anniversary. And we were just saying, hey, we need to reopen Project Blue Book, essentially, is what was happening. We were pushing for that publicly. Like, all we're asking is that we need another event. We need to reopen the government investigation.

Little do we know that Ossap and A-TIP and Senator Harry Reid, the former Senate Majority Leader, did exactly that, but he did it in private. Right. And that was happening exactly. And Leslie and I go, my God, that was happening right at the time we were pushing for it, and it was happening, but it was happening behind the scenes.

Right. And that the only reason why we know about what we know today, because people go, oh, there's like this sudden big epiphany, you know, with the intel folks and the government, they want the public, no, mm-mm. That's not what happened at all. What happened was a couple of people protested in excessive secrecy. They took those tapes, found a loophole, and they walked them out of the Pentagon like a pimp in a briefcase right to the front page of the New York Times.

Wow. And that was the 2017 story. Thank you, Christopher Mellon and Lou Elizondo. That was the 20, that exploded into the headlines. Right. You know, and they walked those tapes at great risk. Yeah, granted, they did find a loophole, but they did not want those tapes. out. Why? You know? So this idea that there's some type of concerted media effort to disclose this

thing on behalf of the government? It was a handful of people that said, we don't care the consequences, the public has a right to know, and screw you guys. Because there are people on the inside that want this out. They go, well, a big sci-op or whatever. The sci-op is coming from the people that don't want it out. That's what the si-op is. There are good people within the government that do want this out. There are people that have a heart, have a brain and have a heart and have compassion and sympathy and you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, all right, sure, sure, there's certain aspects of the phenomenon that probably should

remain classified, the technology. I don't want somebody to get in the wrong hands and put a bomb on it. I mean, I get that, you know, but the fact that we're not alone. And I think that's, I don't know, my opinion and an opinion of many others that we have a right to know about. That's a global right. Every man, woman, and child has a right to know that we are not alone. I'm curious in the, it just in relation to you speaking,

with so many people that have experienced this phenomenon in so many different capacities, whether it's like an eyewitness, you know, drinking tea outside, or if it's a government official and general that is completely sort of anonymous because of how close they are to the actual events. Certainly you've spoken with people that have dubious reporting or dubious accounts. I'm curious, like, what is the criteria that you go through when interviewing these people to assess is this legitimate and credible, or is this someone that's, suffering from a delusion with a mental health issue.

Like, how do you navigate that? Well, I always like to see all people's medical records, military records, photographs in the military, all their military records. I want to do a deep dive when they're reporting, right? So that's, like, very important to me. Does their story, like, conflict with other people that were on the base that night? Or, you know what I mean? Or does it seem to be, like, for instance, there was a really good case,

Bentwater's England, 1980, December, a landing. And there were the general, the base commander, a bunch of other witnesses that, you know, two of which sat with the craft on the ground, Burroughs and Penniston, another guy named, uh, uh, coming to me a second. Anyway, um, all their stories jived, right, except one. There was one guy. Larry Warren, no offense to you. I'm, you know, I believe that you believe what you're saying, but it just, it was so far, left field. It conflicted big time with everybody else's story. So, and thinking of myself, like, you know, it would make sense that if I was trying to cover something up that happened, that I would get one guy, feed him a bunch of wacky, crazy stuff, have him spewing off about it,

you know, maybe he really believes that, or maybe somehow his memory was influenced, I don't know, and that would sort of muddy the waters. It's very, very, very. effective campaign, right? Mm-hmm. It's like, oh, well, I heard that was a lighthouse, or that was this, or didn't they have aliens getting, you know, no, that's not what they're saying. But one guy is, so I opted to leave him out because that just didn't add up to me at all. Was his explanation completely like sort of material, like, oh, it never happened?

Like, no, like, oh, the aliens got out, we made contact and da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Everyone's like, no, it didn't. Like, everybody across the board. Yeah, it landed. We saw it land, and we saw it take off. But there was no contact made. So it was even more outrageous. It was just so outlandishly, like crazy that it would make you just go, you know what?

I don't want anything to do with this case, you know. Interesting. Did it happen intentionally? I don't know. It's pretty effective. But I looked at that. I listened to him. I listened to it.

And I decided, you know what? I'm not going to. So, you know, people's military wreckers is their testimony consistent with all the others. And again, I usually generally, generally speaking, I do. you know, mass sightings, mass more. Right. You know, I'll cover a single one every now and again, but for the most part, it's bigger.

What do you make of, like, individual abductions? So I don't delve down that rabbit hole. However, I was friends with a gentleman named Bud Hopkins. And in 2007, he was super duper excited and he'd done. And I have tremendous respect for, people that investigate these so-called abduction cases, whatever's going on. If that's, if it's true, that'd be a reason for secrecy because no kind of is like, oh, these little critters are coming and taking people in the middle of night.

Like, oh, my God. But he did this experiment where he was interviewing and doing some sort of meditation or when you call that, when you take people. Like a regression? Yeah, yeah. Past life regression people will talk about. Yeah, sometimes of like going to some deep meditation state. A memory regression.

Yeah, something like that. Memory of recovery sometimes people. Something like that. But he was doing that with patients' alleged abductees, and I'm not pooping any of the, I'm just going to give you what impressed me. And he was very excited, Bud Hopkins. And he was showing me these drawings that various witnesses, are alleged abductees, had made.

And what he said was, what do you see on the craft? You're on the table. What do you see? Is there anything on the walls? Do you see, you know? And they all drew this symbol that was on a wall of the craft. And every single one of them from different countries, from different, all drew the same symbol. Slightly different variation.

But he goes, look at this. I went, that's pretty compelling. That's pretty compelling. Is this a dream? If it is, that's pretty interesting. That, to me, for me personally, I was like, like, wow, that's pretty compelling stuff there, bud. Has that symbol been publicly disclosed?

I don't know. You saw it, though? I did. Oh, I saw all the drawings. Interesting. Yeah, he was all excited and he showed it to me. And you felt that there was legitimate comparison. I was like, wow, that's impressive.

To me, I mean, wouldn't it be impressive? Yeah, of course. But it wasn't like some type of generic. It wasn't like a circle or something like that. No, hell no, no, no. It was a symbol like. Something detailed. Oh, very much so.

Yeah. And they were all trying to draw it. And they were all drawing a different variation of the same, clearly the same symbol that was on the wall, allegedly, of the spacecraft, allegedly, but it was compelling. Interesting. To me, it was like, wow, that's pretty impressive. Yeah, speaking with people that have been abducted in their abduction stories, I am.

Charles Walton. Yeah, yeah, yeah, best case. Yeah. And there's many of them, but I'm always moved by the intensity and the fervor that they're describing the experience with, that it leads me, because either they're suffering some type of delusion, they're lying. or aliens or some type of abduction actually occurred, right? It's like kind of falls into these sort of silos for me.

And I don't think that they're lying. So I'm now in these two camps where I'm like, somehow this guy had an experience that he can't explain that is legitimately traumatizing. They're talking about being probed and being analyzed and it's like very like emasculating of an experience. And I don't know what to make of it. I come away from it every time being like, I believe that this happened to him either here or here. but I don't know where. I got to tell you this is really funny. Because if you guys can look at this up, it's Alagash, Alagash 5 or Alagash 4.

It's an abductee that, excuse me, abductees in the 70s. And it was like, I don't know, look at, see if we can find it. Oh, I'm at, I'm at a dinner table. This is like 20 plus years ago with a couple of these witnesses. And they were out, a very remote area of wilderness. And they said they were on a fishing boat. They had a fire on the beach. They were at campsite.

They were on this little boat. They're out there fishing at night under the stars. And they said they saw this light, like way off over the forest, like a way off of the distance. And one of them, I think they were like school teachers. And one of them was like, oh, I got my flashlight. And I was just kind of curious. I figured I'd try to send a message to, you know, whatever this thing was. curious.

So he flexes light on this thing off of the distance. And he said, not a moment later, that object that was way off in the distance shot across the sky right over our boat. Four guys? Yeah, 1976. So the guy goes, at which point my curiosity was fully satisfied. Like that is what he said to me. Well, it works. It was fully satisfied.

Get to the beach for a second. So they're like racing trying to get back to the campsite in their canoe And then the next thing they then this thing just got them like I mean they just like got them all And then they Oh I'd be pissed Missing time missing time And they're back at their campsite It's like the fire's almost out and they're just like looking at each other well I guess

They didn't talk about it at all No recollection really just just lost time Like they're saying sitting there and, you know, and they car on their tents, they go to sleep. The next morning they pack up, they leave, and then they all start having these nightmares. Yeah, of being on a table and being like, you know, just like you would if you caught like a rabbit on the wild and you wanted to kind of not kill it, but take bloods, whatever, you know, just like examine it or whatever. But yeah, that's really compelling. What makes it compelling is, you know, you got multiple, there are multiple people.

Something happened in those guys. Something happened, you know. Travis Walton, what, seven witnesses? Right. 75 maybe, Snowflake Arizona. These guys, like, what I find so credible

about that case is there's a movie made about it called Fire in the Sky and it was very accurate up until the point where he went aboard the craft. At that point, it was a dramatization. It was, but I think Paramount insisted they did it that way, which was silly.

But these guys see this UFO like, they had this It was 75, that case. They had like those trucks that have four doors. And so there was like three people in the front and four in the back. And they, there were loggers and they had a contract with the government. They're trying to like meet the deadlines and they're working late.

And it's like, you know, the sun's gone down. And they're like driving on these dirt roads very remote. And they see what they thought maybe was a fire or something, this really bright light off in the distance. And they came up on it. And it was a perfect. disc just hovering maybe tree top level or maybe a little bit lower, but it was right there. I mean, they were like, oh my God.

Travis Walton, one of the witnesses, before the truck even stopped, he's jumping out to get a closer look because he's thinking to himself, oh, my God. Like, I got to get a closer look at this thing. Because before it shoots off. Well, it didn't shoot off. It stayed there. And all the guys in the truck were screaming at him, screaming at him, screaming at him to stop. It's like, get back here.

What are you doing? and get back, you know, and he runs up to it. And then it starts making this like, whirr sound like a humming or some kind of like something was winding up, like something was happening. And he's freaking out. So he hides behind this log. You kind of crouches down behind this log.

Guys in the truck are screaming at him to get back. And he's thinking, you know what? Maybe that wasn't such a good idea. And he's pretty damn close to it. I better get back to the truck. And he gets up behind this log and something hits him. And he goes like a raggedy and all he's thrown. And that driver hits the foot on the gas pedal thinking they're next.

And they blaze out of there. And they're going. And they're screaming at each other. Like, we can't leave Travis. Like, we can't leave him there for dead. We can't do that. And I guess the driver who's, I guess Travis was dating his sister or something. And the driver's like, I'm not leaving him.

We're turning around. And a couple of the guys in the truck were like, well, I'm not, you don't want to go? I'll let you out right here. you guys wait and they were like, no, let's stick together. So they sit together, they turn around, they go back, disc gone, Travis gone. So what do they do? They look to the best of their ability.

Travis, you know, they scour the area and they were pretty freaked out, as you can imagine. So I go down in town and they tell the local authorities, you know, what happened. And they're like, basically, you guys were all under arrest for homicide. Yeah. And they're like, you know, they all ended up taking lie detected. You can imagine like, oh, yeah. Flying Saucer zapped our buddy, yeah, and pigs fly, right? Yeah, but they all maintain to this day.

I mean, it's like, and then he reappears a week later. It's an incredible case. Yeah. Incredible case. And what do you make of it? Have you spoken with Travis? I think it happened. Have you spoken with Travis?

Oh, hell yes. Yes. In fact, I went to the exact location where it happened, and there was some examination of accelerated growth of the trees right around at the epicenter of where the UFO was. So somehow the propulsion caused the tree rings to accelerated growth. Some sort of energy field, I don't know, but we went and cut, you know, cut the trees and looked at the rings and had some people examine that and, you know, so that was interesting, right? But I interviewed another couple of the witnesses that were in the truck, and it was really funny

because one of them was working at Walmart and he was really busy and he was like, look, man, I'm really busy. I, you know, I guess I could, I can meet you on my cigarette break at Walmart. And if you want to come, I was like, yeah, I'll take what I can get. Sure, let's, yeah. I want to hear from all you guys, the many as I could. So I said, I said, well, what did the UFO look like? And he goes, God, have you ever seen like a brand new corvette? Like brand new on the showroom floor? Beautiful.

So beautiful like this. I was like a brand new corvette. Like, he goes, yeah, man, you know how perfect. Those corvettes are so perfect. He goes, this was more perfect. It was just, you know. and drew a little, you know what I mean? But isn't that funny?

Wow. All those years later, I could see in his eyes. Just enamored. Dude, he was looking at it. He was, he wasn't looking at me, man. He was looking at that corvette. He was looking at that object in the sky. Oh, yeah.

I mean, dudes are the best. Even when in the face of the alien deduction, you're like, dude, I want one of those. He was like, you never see a brand new corvette. Brand new. He's been in that truck too long. He's like, dude, I got to get a new car. So funny, man. If I had the money, I'd buy him a brand new corvette.

Wherever you are out there, you deserve it. That's wild. Yeah, that's crazy. What's up, people? We're going to take a break really quick because I have amazing news. I'm coming on the road. That's right, my very first headlining tour where I'm going to every city that will possibly allow me to go there. I'm going to Fort Wayne, Indiana, Chicago, Hoboken, New Jersey.

I'm going to Salt Lake City. I'm going to Washington, D.C. and Charlotte, North Carolina in February. Those tickets will be announced soon. And, of course, I'm doing my monthly show at Mary Lou in New York City on December 6th. The Best Comics in the City will be coming out and I'll be working out some new material. It is a grand old time. You can get all the tickets at Mark Gagnon Live

and I'll see you guys there. Let's get back to the show. When talking with Travis, did you feel that there was a discomfort in the way he described the event? Was he... So, I have a technique that I use that every now and again

when I really want to hear a story because I'm fascinated. You know, I'm curious. I'm just curious by nature. and if I want to like really like let's say you had an encounter and I just wanted to hey man I really want to get this at I want to know every single and you don't have true serum nearby there's no sodium whatever I don't have the sodium pentanyl yeah what I do is I close my eyes and I let their words which seems kind of weird right but I tell them ahead of time like I'm going to close my eyes because I want your words to create the imagery needed to really put me in your shoes I want to see what you say what you saw, I want every detail imaginable. So I did that with Travis. We went to dinner together years ago.

And I met him subsequently a number of times. I said, Travis, I'm so sorry. I know you've been through this so many times. I really hate to ask you this. But can you put me on board that craft? Like what you saw, please. And he's like, yeah, and I said, I want every detail imaginable. And I'm going to close my eyes.

I want to hear it. Yeah. So I close my eyes. And then he starts telling me. And then I say, well, hang on, did you see this? How wide was the door? How was the ceiling's low?

Where did the light source come from? What did the walls feel like? You know, and I just, I get every detail. So then I'm living it. And I actually did that with an Apollo astronaut, the sixth man to walk on the moon, Edgar Mitchell, because we were talking UFOs. But then I said, can you put me on the moon?

Like, can you tell me? You know what I mean? Like, and so I close my eyes with him. And I, you know, and he told me, me every detail of what it was like, go to the moon. So then I had a dream of going to the moon, and I really went because I knew every detail. Wow. It was incredible. That's what I do. So I closed my eyes. And so that's what I did with Travis, so I could tell you everything he saw. Yeah. I mean, we don't need to get into it here. Sure. Yeah. That is fascinating. Isn't that cool?

I mean, you must have pretty good mental imagery. Well, you know, I have a lot of deficiencies. I do. I really do. I have a lot of deficiencies. I had all kinds of, you know, disabilities growing up, You know, but that, I've got a couple real strengths and storytelling and listening is when I'm, when I'm curious, when I want to know, when I'm interested in the topic, I'll get every detail and I'll never forget it. Now, I'm curious and forgive me if this has been sort of explained ad nauseum, but have you experienced anything sort of unexplainable in this regard? Have you yourself experienced a craft? Have you yourself had dreams that were vivid? that were unexplainable, anything in that regard that you feel like is substantial? I can answer that. It's going to be a few minutes answer, if you want me to.

I will. Please. Yeah. So when I was 20 years and years ago, I was with a girlfriend, Lisa Reinhart, and it was about 9 o'clock at night. We were in Northern California. And there was a big window, almost the size of that wall. A big, big window, like maybe three by four. or something, glass, one sheet, to the right of our bed.

We're hanging out and all of a sudden, to our right, out the window, we see this like like egg-shaped, yellowy, orange light. If I had to guess, I would say half the size of a tiny little Volkswagen beetle, maybe, maybe a little smaller. And we're looking at it. And it's kind of like, it's kind of a, kind of almost like breathing. I don't know.

It was like the intensity of the light was changing, fluctuating a little bit. It was just kind of doing this. You know, she goes, I can swear, right? Please, you're required. Thank you. She goes, what the fuck is that?

And I'm looking at it? And I said, I don't know what that is. But whatever it is, I get the feeling it knows we're looking at it. She goes, yeah, I feel the same thing. close the blinds. So in my haste, I leapt up out of bed of my underwear, grab the blinds to pull them down,

and I rip them off the wall, and they hit the floor. Now I'm fumbling around trying to put the damn blinds back up, while this thing is sitting there just pulsating right in my face, like right there. And we were both scared. Like, what is that thing, you know? And so I get the blinds back up, we clutch each other in bed,

and we're just like freaking out. What is that? and I don't know, maybe a couple minutes went by and she goes, let's check to see if it's still there. Pull the blinds back a little bit. It's gone. My older sister Janine comes home.

She'd been in a concert or something. And she's like, hey, guys, what are you guys doing? What are you guys doing up? Like this. We're like, we just saw this UFO. She goes, oh, cool, like this. And then we told her a little bit and that was that. Look up the next morning.

You'd think I would tell me. my dad, everybody who lived at the house, it didn't happen. Didn't say a word. It was like it did. I don't know. Didn't think about it. So, almost 20 years later, I'm visiting a really good friend of mine. This guy John Kimmel lives down in Southern Cal, one of my best friends.

And he's like, he's like, when you get here, we're going, we're going to do a, we're going to run the beach. Then we're going to swim out to the, to the, to the, uh, there's a buoy like a mile. I don't know a mile, what a quarter mile, whatever, way offshore. We're going to swim out to that buoy, and then we're going to come back in and we're going to run back. And I'm like, oh, man, shit. He goes, and you're going to do it with me. And I was like, you know, I stay fairly fit. I hike and whatever, but he's like another level, right.

So we jog the beach. We swim out to the buoy, get back in. And I was like, hey, John. I was like, I don't know. I want to go to the right. And he goes, James, there was nothing to the right. I'm telling you, I live here. It's open, bare, and beat, there's nothing.

There's no food down there, our car parked over this way. I said, I want to go to the right. And we argued about it. And I said, well, you want to go do your thing? I'm going right. So I go right. And he's like, all right, let me just show you, you idiot, how there's nothing down here. So there's a big, expansive, empty beach.

And we see way off in the distance, just a little dot of a couple people on the beach. That's it. Other than that, it's completely empty. Get closer and closer and closer to those little dot. and it's a little family. It's a wife and a husband and a girl about six, seven years old. Hang it out. I'm looking and I'm looking and I'm like, Lisa?

It was Lisa Reinhardt who had the UFO sighting with me. Yeah, and she goes, James? I'm like, Lisa? Like, you know, oh my God, what are you doing here? We're both visiting. We don't live there. Yeah, swear to God. So I was like, oh my gosh, you know.

I was like, this is my husband. This is my dog. her. I'm like, she pulls me aside and she goes, you remember that UFO site we had? I see, damn right I do. I said, what do you remember? And that she told me, because I didn't want to tell her. I wanted to remember. She remembered it exactly as I did. So she tells me, and I was like, I was like, oh my God, she goes, do you think that has anything to do with what you're doing now? I said, I don't know, Lisa. I don't know. I didn't tell anybody about it. I don't talk about it. It's like it didn't happen. In fact, if you weren't with me, I would never talk about it.

you know, but I was like, and it wasn't like, you know, people like, I interview people that watch the disc come down and land on a parking lot. I was like, wow, that's pretty, ours was more ambiguous. But it was something that the part that was fascinating to me was that it knew we were looking at it. We both felt it. I could call it right now. It's like, that's the one part.

And I don't know. And she said to me, like, do you think that has anything? I was like, I don't know. I don't have no idea. But it was like, she never told her husband. I didn't tell anything. You know, yeah. So that's, is that weird?

In the sense that it's looking at you. Describe that. It wasn't like it was looking. Well, let's see. Like the feeling of being washed? Yeah, yeah, no, no. It knew that we were looking at it. So I guess that it was looking at us, I guess.

I don't know if it was like looking at us, but it knew we were looking at it. And other than fear. Was there a feeling that you had? Was there that before you talked about? No, no. It was purely fear. It was all scared. it wasn't scared because it was making like any kind of like, excuse me, you know, like threatening behavior or, you know, it was just the unknown.

Right. Excuse me. Like, what is that? What, what is that? And at this point, had you been researching this topic? Had you read a book? No. No.

In fact, we used to have this guy who was friends and his family, his family owned Yardley Soap and he was a pilot. And he was a really good. friend. He's from England. My dad's British, and I was born in England, family's English, and, and he'd come over for, like, Thanksgiving dinners and stuff like that, and he used to tell this story about a UFO encounter that he had an airplane, and I just had no interest. It was just like, oh, cool, you know, not even cool. Like, it didn't, you know, and it was a pretty good one, too. I actually called him later, and I was like, Michael, you remember that? He goes, well, you never really interested. I go, well, I am now. Like, I want to hear it.

Times have changed. Yeah, time get changed. Yeah. So anyway, yeah. I don't know. I really don't know. It's so interesting. Even the fact that you didn't have a ton of experience before, because so often I'll talk to people that have had like really close experiences,

where they were abducted or they felt something, et cetera. And I don't use this to discredit, but it's always predicated by some type of loose curiosity in the topic that kind of precedes the event. So they'll be like, you know, I didn't know anything about it. Then I watched a movie. Then I read a book. And then bam.

It happened. And I had this crazy experience that's unexplainable. And to me, it always so is a little bit of doubt where I go like, well, you were kind of into it and it drew you in. And granted, I haven't talked to like the high-ranking military personnel you've spoken with. But that kind of a thing always makes me question like, well, you're into it. Maybe you had like a stroke or something. You fell asleep. But who knows exactly what happened.

But the fact that you didn't have really any prior curiosity to the event. More than less than that, I had no. I didn't even want to hear, I didn't, it was like, you're crazy kind of thing. Like, in the back of my mind, I was so dismissive of it. Like, you know, like, I wasn't even curious. How long after that event did you start to get curious? Six years. Five or six years.

And then what predicated that flip? So I had a really good friend Renee, and we went to high school together. And I was, I was apprenticing at a video production company in Northern California. And I was, like, really fascinated. with the advent of the video and like instant playback and like editing and I just thought it was a really cool medium you know and so I was like working for free but learning I was an apprentice at this company and and um my buddy we were good friends in high school and then we as one does I went off did some stuff he went off and did some stuff and we reconnected like four or five years

after high school and he's like James you know you know you You hear about Roswell, the alien spaceship, and I was like this. And I was like, oh, God, my buddy lost his mind. Like, what the fuck? I'm, I just lost one of my best friends. Like, shit. Yeah, it's sad when I was. Yeah, it was really sad.

I was like, I really was like, I'm going to have to write this guy. I might have to cut this guy loose. Yeah. So I'm in the production house, and I was probably 24, 25. And Richard Van Sickle and a tremendous respect for him. And he was really an amazing producer. director, editor. And I was like, hey, Richard, you know,

I was like, God, you know, my really good friend is just like lost his mind. He's starting to talk about alien. Roswell, something crashed and the aliens and this and UFOs. And Richard goes, dude, you don't know about that? I go, know about what?

He goes, the Roswell. I said, uh, no. How, no, I don't know. I mean, I've heard about it, but like, no. He goes, oh, yeah, dude. The military fucking, they, announced it. They actually said we recovered it. I said, they did? He goes, yeah, man. Look at the headline. Like, you know, he goes, oh, yeah, you didn't know about that stuff. Like, he goes, oh, that's

legit, dude, yeah. I was like, Richard? Really? Dude? You? Like, you know? And he goes, yeah, man. Like, so I started looking into it a little bit. I was like, huh? They did it. They got that. They recanted. But a lot of people that recanted later went on the record and said, no, the original story was true. I was like, huh, that's interesting. So then I started like, I don't know, looking into a little more. I attended a couple conferences. I met some military guys. I was like, hmm, maybe there's something going on here.

Interesting. And my dad, who was a quadriplegic with MS, who was a mainstream journalist, and always super supportive. He was the guy that was always like, no matter what you want to do in life, son, you know, I respect, do you want to be a garbage man? You want to be a lawyer, a doctor, whatever. I'm 100% behind you, nothing but support and love. He was like, you're out of your fucking mind and you are going to, there's a dead, he said,

dead end street. He goes, you are going nowhere with this. There's nothing to it. Don't waste your life, son, please, to me. I was like, oh, Mr. Supportive guy, like always supporting me no matter what. He's like, yeah, I was lying. They were going to be a doctor. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think this was going to happen. I was like, I was shocked. I was like, dad, hello, it's your son here. Like, I'm just curious. He was begging me. Not only was he begging me, not to do it, but he had all of our family members in Europe writing me letters going, your dad's very concerned about what's going on right now. And I just want to check in with you.

Like, don't, you know, don't do this. Like, and I just thought, fuck you guys. Like, I'm just, I'm just curious. I want to. And so I was like, oh, yeah, watch this, you know. And I think that got me enough where it motivated me to the point. where I worked so hard. I was making a documentary.

It was really hard. I was like, Jesus, nobody told me how hard this is. You know? Making my first one, like years into it. You know? And I sold that baby to Discovery Channel. And everyone was like, damn. Did your dad come around?

Well, so he didn't know the first one. But then I'd made a bunch of, like, request. for interviews on my first one that didn't acceptance didn't come through until after the first one was done. That's what kind of like rolled me over into the next film out of the blue. But there was an astronaut, a mercury astronaut, Gordon Cooper, who was an iconic figure of my dad's generation. Like he was the last American astronaut to go up in space alone. He orbited the planet like 22 times. Everybody knew Gordon Cooper.

He's in the right stuff. Like he's, you know, he was the man. And I got, I made a request for him. I think it took him a year, two years, whatever, to finally, you know, agree to meet with me. And I said, Dad, you know, I'm going to got this interview with Gordon Cooper. And normally, I'd be going with him because he was in a wheelchair and I was his nurse. I was his secretary. I was his chauffeur.

I mean, we traveled together. He relied on me. And we had a great time. Like, we went around interviewed race car drivers and Stephen Hawking a couple times and got to do some really cool stuff. Wow. And, but this time I took him with me, which is different. Like, this is my mission. right and he met Gordon Cooper and Gordon Cooper talked about a landing incident that happened at

Edwards Air Force Base circa in 1957 and they filmed it and then he saw the film footage of a landed disc in 1957 Edwards Air Force Base he also had encounters a couple years earlier over some German American base in Germany when he was piloting in a fighter jet and he said yeah we all saw these objects and they were disks shaped and they were doing these crazy maneuvers and I saw him with my own eyes Gordon Cooper yes wow And my dad was going, like, hmm. Uh-oh. He was like, I could see him.

Like, he was like, that Larry King moment. Yeah, he was like, shit. Oh, no. You know, and then he's like, why would this, excuse me, why would this guy make this story up? He's got everything to lose. Like, doesn't make any sense. We're not paying him any money.

Like, and I think that got my dad to really start to think, you know, maybe my son isn't so crazy. How was that car ride home? Did he say anything to you? Like, hey. Well, he was, let's put it. this way. He was my biggest fan before you died. That's awesome. Yeah. Wow.

That's really cool. Isn't they cool? Shout out to Gordon Cooper. Yeah. I know. I know. I know. That's wild. I'm always curious, like, you've spoken to so many people. Yeah, probably too many. Yeah, at this point. Yeah, this one, this interview specifically is the one too far.

If there's anyone that you could speak with that you haven't spoken with and you had five minutes of pure honesty, they couldn't lie. Yeah. Who are some people you talked to? Lonnie Zamora. Who's that? He's a police officer who had probably one of the most well-documented of the third kind in U.S. history. It was a close encounter of the third kind.

It was the case that got Dr. Heinek who was working for the Air Force at the time. April 24th, 1964, Socorro, New Mexico. He had eye contact with one of the aliens standing on the outside of the craft. And I've always wanted to know what kind of communication he had with it

because his wife said, I don't know what happened. But ever since he had that encounter, he was never the same. And I read all the damn I did it. a deep dive into that case. And I was like, there's metal fragments from the landing gear.

There was face-to-face communication with one of the aliens. The Air Force stepped in and they were like, it had already leaked out at that point. So they couldn't like, you know, put the lid on it. But they put significant pressure on him to not talk about the beans on the ground. Because it's one thing like you have a tick-tack shaped object that's unexplainable, right? Yeah, it's aircraft, whatever. But when you've got beans on the ground and you could say like,

oh, well, that was a, you know, that was an experimental, you know, whatever. Not when there's an alien standing next to it. Yeah. So they did every, the Air Force did everything they could to get him to not tie. I know that because I talked to his co-workers. I talked to his wife. I talked to his daughter. I talked to his son.

Like, I investigated that case. I went to the National Archives. I went and sat with for a week at the house of the lead investigator on that case. Ray Stanford. I researched the bejesus out of that case. Yeah. And what happened to this guy? Which guy?

He died in 2008. I didn't get to him in time. And he never spoke about it? He did. He did a little bit. He did a little bit. Yeah. And there was stuff at the time about it.

Yep. One of the things that I've learned is that just because the President of the United States is the President of the United States, you know, doesn't necessarily mean that they're read into the program. And the justification for that is like, you know, we have an elected official that come and go four years at most eight. And then they're out back out. out into the world, and, you know, we're not going to debrief them on 80 years of secrecy on any particular topic. There's lots of things that... They need to know what they need to know for their administration.

They need to know what they need to know. And how are you going to ask about something you don't know exists? It's like... So, but generally speaking, that the president has been kept out of the loop on this. Now, there are presidents, and the reason why I know that is because I interviewed them. Jimmy Carter, we kind of ambushed him a little bit. Oh, really? Yeah.

In one way. It's a funny story. if you want, I'll tell you. Yeah. Well, so he, you know, he just got, I don't take no for an answer. So I'll just keep going until it happens, right? And so he was no, no, no, no, no. President Ford was a no, no, no, no, no.

That's another story. I'll tell that in a minute. We got to both them. And it's really funny. So I said, well, damn it, if he's not going to, if he's not going to, you know, give me an interview, I'm going to find out otherwise. So I looked at his schedule and I found out. He's going on book.

tour and he's going to be at the Stacey's bookstore in San Francisco on a book tour and I'll just go there and I'll bring my camera and I'll just, you know, get a statement from him. Screw it, right? Go get his book signed. So my dad calls me, my dad was a quadriplegic, you know, he had MS and he calls me, he goes, he goes, hey, his voice is weak. Hey, I really need help this weekend. I, you know, I don't have anybody looking after me. I need, I need, you know, to, I said, Dad, I'd love to do that, but I got to go, I'm going to go ambush, you know, President Carter at this book signing, because I'm trying to find out because he's seen a UFO and evidently he made inquiries, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And my dad is, well, maybe you can take me with you. I was like, oh, dad, take you with me. Are you kidding me? I'm, it's going to be really tough. And he goes, well, I really, I really need you, son, like that. So I was like, all right. So I contacted my buddy, Tim, who I was the guy that told me about Virginia years ago. I say, hey, my dad really needs, he's like,

mate, you know, we're on a mission here. You know, I was like, look, man, my dad, got to take my dad. So we arrive and there are very few, there are very, very little, um, uh, perks for being paralyzed. But lines, airports, you know, parking. Disney world.

Disney world, a couple little perks. Not many, but a couple. So we got there. They bump us ahead of the line. there were people like lined up. I couldn't believe it. In the book store, it was on the second floor all the way down, this huge area, and then down the stairs and then down out outside and then down out the sidewalk

waiting for people to get a glimpse of, you know, Jimmy Carter. And they said there will be, you can take a picture of him, but you can't take a picture with him. We were going to have a press conference because I was going to get up in the press conference, but that's not going to happen anymore. like da-da-da-da. I was like, shit. Like, God, they're making this impossible. How am I supposed to do this? So we're all just like sitting there waiting and President Carter. There he is. He walks in to the room. And my dad was sitting in his wheelchair. And he, like, Carter was walking to this little table where he was going to be signing books. And people are all waiting.

Jimmy Carter walks straight up to my dad, like just walked just like a magnet. just right up to him. He puts his hand on my dad's knee, and he just acknowledged him because they're my dad's a quad, you know, like compassion, right? That's who he was. And I thought to myself, I'm going to wire my dad with a secret microphone.

And I'm going to have my buddy Tim push him up to the counter. We're going to buy as many books as we can afford, so we stacked like all these books on my dad's lap, right? Kind of cruel, but, you know, means to an end. Right. I'm on a mission. And your dad's a fan at this point. So he approves.

Totally. So I can't, so I'm in the back like, this is before 9-11. So now there's no way you can get away of the shit we were doing. So I'm like getting the sound. Like I had a remote mic and then it transmitted back to the receiver, which I had on the camera. I couldn't get the bloody headphones to work. So I couldn't, I couldn't tell if it was working. I'm assuming it was working.

But I couldn't tell. frustrating. Whatever. I said, it's go time. It is what it is. So my dad's got a mic on him. He's getting wheeled up in the line. I'm at the back of the room with this little rinky dink camera. And I'm like zooming in. I'm zooming in. I'm trying to get because the audio is going to get. I'm zooming in. And I see them get together, but I can't hear anything. Right. So I'm assuming that everything's going going swell. And my dad goes, he goes, well, you know, wouldn't have stall him as long as possible because he's going to have to sign five books or whatever the hell it was, right? So I was going to take it up extra time. So I'm back there and I'm

filming. I'm back there filming and people kept walking in front of me and I'm like, get around these guys like I'm zooming in between and you know what I mean? And they got the interaction and then I see Jimmy Carter look. Dude, it was like he, he's like he came into my space. Like he looked right into my eyeball. I was like, holy shit, I just got caught. And I reacted by, I pulled the rocker back and pulled the camera. or out like this and I was like like this and I was thinking shit I could get jumped I mean the secret service I don't know I did I just do something illegal I just like why you know and I was just like I need to get the hell out of here like you know so my dad gets whisked off and and we got it

and it's basically my dad saying you know what about you know you saw UFO sighting my dad's voice is really weak and and Carter's like kind of leans forward because you weren't supposed to ask him any questions but right there's my there's a quadriplegic asking him come on yeah he can't say no Right? So he's like, hey, you know, you saw a UFO, you know, and he's like, yeah, I did see a UFO and he describes it. And then what about when you're when you're president, you know, and, huh? And then Tim, who's a British guy, he's like, when you were president, did you look into it when you were president like this? And he's like, yes. And that's when he scanned the room and saw me, right, with the camera. And he goes, I was, yes, but there were a lot of different answers and not the right, you know, blah, blah, blah. I made a politician. Yeah, I made inquiries and we weren't basically happy with what we got back. Something like that.

It's in out of the blue. So that was interesting, you know. Wow. So that's how I got. So I had, I got an interview with Gerald with Ford. And Penny Circle was his handler. And I was calling for two years, three years, every week, whatever, just keep going. and, you know, persistence, right?

And I had a roommate at the time. He was an engineer. He was older than me. And he goes, there's only one rule in this house. He goes, if I'm in that hot tub with a girl, you know, you stay the hell out of, you know. It's an easy rule. He never had a girl in the hot tub. Like, the dude's just like, always wanted it.

You always wanted, but it never happened. He's in the hot tub with a girl. And it's like three o'clock in the afternoon, right? This is like a UFO side. I swear to you. He's in the hot tub with a girl. Penny Circle calls me. The president's ready to talk to you.

What? Like, now? She goes, yes, now. Holy shit. President Ford's going to, oh, my, oh my God. Penny,

would you mind terribly? If I could just have a couple minutes to get ready for the interview? Okay, I'll let the president know. Click. Holy shit. President Ford's going to, you know, ah! Like, so I run out.

Tom, he's in the hot tub with this girl. I swear to you, I can't make this. You can't make this up. He goes, what did I tell you about when I'm in the hot tub? I know. But President Ford, President Ford, he's called, yes, and I need a recording device. It's all in the last minute. So he leaps out of the hot tub naked as a jaber, dripping water everywhere,

running through the house, naked, trying to help me get, you know. The girls are sitting there like, oh, oh my gosh. This is so funny, you know. And we got General Ford, because General Ford helped initiate congressional hearings, the first congressional hearings, right? After that landing case that happened in Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, and police saw it and all kinds of residents saw it. It's a crazy case. And that's when the Air Force came out and said, well, you know, could be swamp gas. And people were irate witnesses.

A flying saucer landing, and you're looking at that damn saucer on the day. damn, you know, and you're going to tell me I saw swamp gas? Like, he said that was one of his biggest regrets, Dr. Heidex, when he said swamp gas like that. But that caused the first hearings because, you know, he rattled the cage and they had hearings. So what did Gerald Ford say when you spoke with him? He said, yes, I did initiate the hearings. Okay.

And then I said something like, I wanted, well, when you were president, did you look at it? No comment on that. I can't comment on that. I was like, well, did you, did you look into it when you're, you? You know, basically the implication was, yeah, I initiated the hearings. You know, the explanation given was absolutely ridiculous. We deserve to know the truth. And when it comes to when I was president, I can't comment on that. Did you explain to him the stakes?

You're like, hey, this guy just got to have a hot tub. Yeah. With a nine, okay, with a hot woman. I know, I know. You don't understand. So funny. I mean, people knew like the backstories. I have so many backstories saw how it got in certain interviews.

Like, I could tell you, we could go on for weeks of some really funny. like I tell people say to me like, we've been trying for 50 years to get that witness to come forward. I say, just put me in the room with them, okay? Just get me in the room. And it's like, because I will make that magic happen. Like I said, I have a lot of deficiencies, but that's not one of them. What's up, guys?

We're going to take a break really quick because I have a story to tell you. Fun fact, after you have a child, your testosterone naturally goes down. It's a way for you to, like, become, like, more empathetic and more in touch and, like, protect your kid and stuff. And I didn't really believe that. But then I had a baby like a year ago, and I started to feel it. Around like 3 o'clock would roll around and I would get more tired. I wasn't really sleeping that great because we just had a baby. And I was like drinking more coffee.

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brands don't do this. You're going to get 60% off for life and three free gifts when you use the code camp at men go to mars.com. That is men, M-E-N, go to Mars, M-A-R-S dot com, and use the code camp at checkout. And after your purchase, they're going to ask you where you heard about them. Please say that you heard about them from Camp Gagnon that we sent you there. It really helps us out. Mars Men is great. It is a natural support for your testosterone. Look, you can buy all of these, you know, supplements separately, or you can just go to Mars Men and get it all in one case. Now, let's get back to the show. Also, I need to know what video did you show, Logan Paul? Oh, yeah. So that's funny. Speaking of backstory. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was making my first UFO documentary and I touched on Area 51 because at the time in the 90s, Area 51 was all, you know, people were doing. guided tours and there were certain vantage points that you can go up to and there was a guy named

Chuck Clark who wrote this book called the UFO Area 51 and something handbook. It was basically a guide to tourists that wanted to come explore Area 51, certain areas that you can go. And he had a pretty dramatic side. You know, it was something that was exhibiting some sort of extraordinary technology, this orb thing that could shoot around in the sky and stop and this and that. And he saw it on multiple occasions. Pretty smart guy. And he, I was kind of interested. interested, you know, activity going on at the base. And so I was interviewing him, an ongoing friendship. And, and he, one day, he calls me up. And he goes, hey, James, I, Chuck Clark here. He goes, I got something I need to show you. I live like 12 hours away. I was like, well,

what are you talking about? You know, I didn't really talk to you about it, but your jaw is going hit the floor. I said, really? He goes, really. I'll be right there. Cancel all my plan, jumped on the car, shoot out there to Rachel, Nevada. And he pops in, we go to his double wide, and he pops in this VHS tape. And it was a week old, maybe, at the time. You know, what Logan Paul had seen apparently was like 30 years old or whatever, 26 VHS tape playing over and over and over. What it was was two guys taking a road trip, just as many of us have done out to, you know, Little Alien and Area 51 and go up to the gate and da-da-da-da,

and goofing off, listen to road music. And then all of a sudden they're parked and they're arguing in the car and there's something over the top of them. And this is what I saw. What I remembered was, which was unusual, was that the light source that was shooting into the car, was it was a very fluid movement like it was on some sort of pendulum or something because the shadows were kind of fluidly moving on the inside of the car and they

were kind of arguing back and forth and I was like that's weird I've never seen like there has to be a light source hanging from a wire or I don't know something smooth just doing this because that's what the shadows were doing on the inside and then one of the kids is like I'm going out the guy's like no don't get out of the the car, it's over the top, or something like that. And he goes out, and there was a disc, let's see, if the screen is this big, I'd say it's about that big in the middle, and it was

a disc shapecraft that was like kind of orangey yellow, and the part that really got me, and it was crystal clear, like it was no dropout. I mean, it was like, this was made like a week earlier, was that it, it, it did kind of this. like it kind of was unstable, like a boat on the water. It was just kind of wobbling like this. And I was like, I looked over at chalk and I was like,

holy shit, where did you get this? And he was like kind of secretive about it. He's like, well, these guys came out and they were hanging out the little alien and then they left and then they came back all excited an hour later and they'd filmed this thing out by the black mailbox. And I was like, dude, you need to put me in touch with these. these guys, I need to get, I need, I need this video. For whatever reason, Chuck was really weird about that whole side, like, he goes, I promised them, I wouldn't give, you know, I said,

fair enough, but you're in touch with them. Give them my number. Like, let me talk to them. Tell them, I'd be willing to raise whatever, you know, he was super secretive and went on for at least, at least 10 years and maybe 15 years. And I asked him every year. And I asked him every year. Put me in touch. Bada-b-bba. I was going to break him down some point. And Chuck goes, if you ask me one more time, I'm never

speaking to you again. And of course I asked him one more time. And now he won't talk to me ever again. But then I found out, like, through somebody had heard me talking about it, maybe on Joe Rogan, or I don't remember which show I was on. But heard me talking about it, and they

contact me. He's like, I'm a private investigator, and I find people. He's like, you mind? if I said, dude, have at it. Don't use my name, but this guy doesn't want to talk to me. So he finds him. He's in the Arizona desert somewhere. And Chuck's like, yeah, I still have the VHS tape. If you want to see it, you know, of course, now it's like almost 30 years old and it's

played by 10 million times, so it's got a lot of dropout and stuff. And so, so I guess I went on Logan Paul's show and I was telling Logan about it. And Logan's like, I'm going to go see that. So I hooked him up with the private investigator. And I guess Logan's talked about it since then. Logan went with a big block of cash and he put cameras on him and filmed and filmed what was on the screen

and at which point I think at some point Chuck Clark found out about that and threatened Logan like I'll sue the shit out of you and like and da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And Logan's like that the tape was really broken down and there's lots of drop out. It wasn't as clear as anything that you described but you know he goes, yeah, but I did see that wobble.

It was really, that was the weirdest part. It was the way it wobbled. And I mean, You know, as far as I could with it, right? But then I was out of Area 51 just like maybe a year or two ago. I got invited for a conference at Las Vegas and we're going to go do a night watch. And I was on the board of the night watch. So I talked to the owners of the little alien.

Connie, her name is, and she's odd. I've known her forever. And I said, Connie, you remember that UFO? Oh, are you kidding me? Of course I remember that tape. We all watched it a thousand times. We watched it for decades. Like, yeah, we all talked about it.

I was like, I was like, well, gosh, like, why is he being so secretive? It was like, well, there's a backstory as to how it got, you know, no, no, no, it's like, it's complicated because it's going to expose, you know, I was like, yeah, but, you know, it's been. And so, uh, she's like, she goes, James, do you honestly think we're that stupid, well, we're not going to make a digital copy of it? Do you really think we're that stupid? So I was like, looking at her like, shit. So they have a digital, so there's a digital copy somewhere, according to her.

you know and Chuck so Chuck so I contacted George Knapp and I said George to you're investigating area 51 you've been going out there for all this time like I'm telling you I saw this tape this is really good stuff I see UFO stuff all the time like particularly if you can get the master because apparently the master was on beta SP that was made a copy on the VHS like this guy that works at this TV show or TV network and George goes oh yeah yeah no I did some stories on Chuck Clark. I know Chuck Clark well, blah, blah, blah. I said, well, do, go get it. Go after this because I'm telling you, it's good. And, and he's like, oh, yeah, I will. Yeah, yeah, I will. And then, you know, a week would go by. I text nap, hey, are you, you know, and he's like, no, not yet.

I'm really busy, blah, blah, blah, another week, another week, another week, another week, another week, and then I said, I said, George, with all due respect, buddy, I'm telling him handing this to you. Like, please, you got, you know, there's information on this, like, and he goes, you're not my fucking wife. And I love the guy. I really do. And he wasn't being mean to me, but he was like, stop acting like you're my fucking wife, okay? Leave me alone. I'll get to it. Like, just back off. And I was like, okay. And as it happens, the private investigator got the name of the guy who gave it to him and has the original master. And guess what? He died like two weeks before we got to him. Yeah. So then we contacted his son because we wanted to get, there's got to be the master,

which is going to be great, you know. And his son's like, my dad just died and you guys want to talk about a UFO tape? Like, fuck you guys, you know. How could you be so distra- And I felt bad, of course, you know, but I was like, I was worried about it going to the trash or something. I wanted to make him aware of the fact that his dad had the master,

you know? But if George had gone to him, when I told me to go to him, he would have gotten the name, the guy was in Vegas, and he would have probably gotten the master. Damn. So it's like, ugh. I wish you were his wife.

I know. It's like you slip between the cracks. It's like, yeah, I know. Yeah, that's him talking about, yeah. So I don't know, man. It's frustrating. But look, the Calvin UFO shot. I waited almost 20 years for that.

In fact, I probably did wait 20 years. Maybe I waited longer. And we got it. So at this point, what does disclosure even look like, right? Like, I feel like we would need some type of massive event because, you know, there's photos that come out much later. There's all this, you know, sort of circumstantial military evidence. what is what would it take for the average person

be like, yeah, of course. Thought about that a lot. One of the things that we're going to do soon, very early next year, is we're going to have an event in Washington, D.C., with a number of first-hand witnesses, both American and Brazilian. And we're going to have them introduce themselves at the podium,

speak for a few minutes, and then say, make a plea to the executive branch to provide immunity so they can violate their NDAs and participate in open congressional hearings, maybe on the Senate, the House or both, and give the details needed to verify the following claims, street addresses, names, where the locations of some of this materials are. And then it's in the hands of the executive branch. If they want to do it and they want to push for transparency,

like whatever you think of the current administration, they've got the power to do it. and they talk about wanting transparency and more openness. So, you know, we're going to do that. I think there's another effort. There's that documentary Age of Disclosure that's out right now. Actually, it's coming out today, I think. That's got more high-level government and military officials in history. All talking, not only talking about the existence of the phenomenon, but talking about the existence of the legacy UAP program.

That's incredible. Like, I mean, you got, like, Clapper and Rubio and Jolabran. all talking about a crash retrieval program and the president of the United States being out of the loop. I mean, that's happening like right now. That's dropping today. Yeah. So that's significant.

And people can get frustrated and be like, you know, I'm so tired hearing these stories and I need the evidence. It's like, hey, we're with you here. Be patient. This is not a hundred-yard dash. We're running a marathon. Do you think it'll happen 10 years?

I think it'll happen sooner. I do. could be wrong. As someone who's been doing this for over 30 years, I've never seen this. This is the closest you felt we've been to disclosure. No question. No question. They're not going to put the genie back in the bottle. I don't think so. Wow. Yeah. And this could be the right administration, right? There's a little scandal pop stuff. Be like, hey, you know, you could move off the scandal. How about this? We forget about any of these files. I don't know anything about F. I don't know anything about M.C. But this UFO stuff. Wow. Yeah, so we're going to try. And a lot of

other people are trying to. There's a lot going on behind the scenes. You know, there's a lot going on. There's some stuff, man, that I hope one day I'll be able to talk about because I felt, you remember that moment where I was telling you about the governor when I was pinching my leg? I've had a number of those that I can't talk about because I can't my sources, you know? Right.

But people that I've met with that really know what they're talking about. Like, I came to them. I hunted them down and slowly got them to meet with me. And then we go off the record and just talk stuff. And I'm like, ugh. Are you signed to NDAs? No, but I, no, no, no, they trust me.

Yeah, they trust me. I mean, come on, I've been at it forever. They know who I am. Fair. And they, and there's other intel folks to say, you can trust James. And it's like, not that I'm trying to be secretive about it because, you know, I know this. It's like, hey, man, I'm going to take what I can get.

You know what I mean? And it's whatever point I can disseminate the information, but to have the level of confirmation that I've had on a number of occasions. Like, I went in to meet the heads of arrow recently. Right. Or I had a special badge and, like, had to get, like, full deep cavity search to get in there and, like, walking into the, to a skiff, you know? Where I'm coming up to this, like, glass tube-like door that opens a on one side, and I walk in and then, and then another one open, going in full, like, take all my, like, take all my, like, door that opens, like, glass, tube-like door that opens on one. electronics out, put him in a locker.

Padded down. Yeah. Oh, are you kidding me? I went through so many metal detectors. No wires, nothing. Hell no. And then took me into the skiff, and there I was in the skiff with the new heads of arrow. People from the OSI.

I swear on my life. Yeah, and I'm sitting there talking to these guys, and I'm like, you know, you got to throw us a bone. We're not going away. Like, this is, you know, you know that we're ultimately, I know the vast majority of UFOs can be can be explained and, you know, prosaic, misidentified this, that, the other thing. I might have even thrown in swamp gas for fun. And, but there's a core, residual core, 10 to 15 percent that are most probably NHI. And they didn't say no.

They just sat there and the guy looks at me and he goes, James, he goes, I can't part my hair without the DOD's approval. John Kosklauski, the new head of arrow. And you can quote me on that. he's like basically saying no matter what I find it's above me my hands are tied I can't you know yeah Congress put me in charge but the DOD is controlling me wow yeah we were talking about Ruah

we were talking about Socorro we were talking about Virginia like and they weren't just sitting there going yeah this is all nonsense they were listening they knew how long till the men in black knocking your door they're probably flying over me with satellites Do you think you're being tracked at all? There was no question. No question. But you've never had a direct interaction where some guy in a suit.

Well, it's really funny. I was hanging out with a bunch of FBI agents at a premiere for disclosure a couple days ago. And we were like talking. I was there with somebody from the New York Times. And we're talking. They're all in suits. They're typical exactly like you'd expect, right? They're all from the agency like this.

And we're all talking. And then I was like, yeah, because, you know, blah, blah, we're all having drinks because they're off. When I was talking about, you know, X, Y, and Z. And he goes, oh, no, no, no. We know exactly who you are. Not in a threatening way. But like, oh, yeah, we follow. Yeah, isn't that funny?

I was loud about that because, yeah, they're paid a damn right. They're paying attention. Wouldn't you? Yeah. Like, yeah, hello. Who's this guy talking to? Is he talking to our guys? Like, I would want to know.

It wasn't in a threatening way, but they wouldn't be doing their job not. to be paying attention to people. Yeah, for sure. I think Dan Farrah has probably got more to worry about than me. I mean, if I got my hands on the definitive piece of footage, I'd have something to worry about. No question. When you say the definitive piece of footage.

Putting of a captured alien? Landing. That would be a problem for them. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that exists. Oh, no question. And you've spoken to people that have seen it.

Yes. Multiple people. The same piece of footage? Different. Some, yeah, different, some same, some different. Interesting. Yeah. Now, and I believe it.

Yeah. How do you know that you're not? I like to get my sticky little fingers on it. How do you know that you're not being utilized? Because I'm in the field. And you're seeking them out. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. I'm talking to people that, yeah, tracking them down. I mean, Varginia, for instance, knocking on doors? Right. 16 years now? Do you feel like people have ever tried to utilize you? intelligence coming across being like, hey, James, we got this thing that you would love to see. You would love to talk about this.

Well, I can't go into specifics, but I did look at one of the Air Force Office's Special Investigations guy and I said, if you put this out, you're going to have a big problem. This is bullshit. That's what I said to him. And I don't think he ever put it out. Wow. But it was something they were going to try to explain for an instant because I interviewed the guy that originally shot the footage. I know all about it. And I was like, no, that's not going to, that's not going to bode well, that's what I said.

Like explanation that was. Yeah, you're going to basically slap these people across the face. They're going to do another alien costume press conference. Don't do that. Another swamp gas moment. Yeah, because they wanted my opinion, like, what do you think? Because they knew I knew the case well. Right.

Yeah, I can't go into that because they asked me not to, but they showed me some footage that they dug up. And I was like, no, that's nothing to do with that. In your follow up to Virginia, what are some of the, the smoking guns, you could say, that's in that dock that'll come out that you're most excited for people to see. First time in history, first time in history of the phenomenon

that we have firsthand, eyewitness testimony of direct communication with a captured alien in custody. And it just so happens. It's the guy that's the neurosurgeon at the lead hospital where this thing was dropped off.

So you have all this, like, other sightings, transport, all the stuff that's going on that all leads to the hospital, and now we have the lead. The guy that ran all three, the head of all three neurosurgeon, head of all three hospitals. And was he, did he do an autopsy? No, no, no, no, no. That was alive. The being was alive.

And he did an examination. His partner did the examination. He just sat in the room with it for about three or four minutes, face to face, before the military burst in and took it. Did he describe communication? Yes. telepathic? Yes. Did you disclose what was said? A little bit, yeah. You talked about the fact that it, despite it being, that the eyes, all the communication happened with the eyes, that it was an

extremely advanced intelligence, far more advanced from anything on Earth, and that it could read everything in his mind, not in a bad way, but that even though he was in captivity, it had full control of the room. Typical gray? No, it was a, you know, the people that encountered the creature on the outside. It had brown oily skin. It was suffering in the heat. And big red eyes. Little, I don't want to call them horns,

like little lump protrudences on the head here. Spindly arms, spindly legs, relatively feeble, bigger head, big eyes, slit for mouth. I don't know about the nose. No, I don't think any ears or maybe holes or ears. A smell? Yeah, I mean, the outside, I think the outside, but I didn't hear the smell when it was in captivity.

I don't know if that was a reaction to the heat or being scared or some sort of mechanism. I really don't know. It's all speculation because, you know, when it was outside and it was scared and it was really hot, like the girls that came within 10 feet of it, all three of these girls, Katia, Lillianni and Volkiria, all said that it was cowering. It was, it was frightened. It was feeble. It was suffering.

And it wanted help. Yeah. Yeah. And it was brown and had that odor. Wow. But, and then we heard it from a number of other doctors as well. But, you know, there's a, it's a long story, you know, but there's like there were sightings, it was capture, there's military blockades, there's crash sites, there's, you know, I mean, it's a big story,

and there are a lot of, a lot of moving pieces and a lot of, a lot of different people involved. Wow. It's a really good case. In fact, I think it's the best. In fact, most people within the community will say this is, this is the definitive. case. This is probably the case that's going to prove that UAP we're dealing with the non-human intelligence. Now, how much pressure was on this neurosurgeon to not speak? It's a good question. I think there are a number of factors that play into that. For starters, he's working on people's

brains. He's representing the hospital. You know, there's pressure from the military, I was told on just about everybody to keep quiet about it. But it's not a career enhancement move. I don't know. I'd have to find out if it was just to the whole hospital staff or him, directly, I don't know. But yeah, those issues are addressed. And everybody, 99.9% of the people, whether the civilian, fire, military, or just witnesses. Like, for instance, the girls that came into contact, the men in black showed up at their house. In fact, that was one of the first all-in-on men-in-black reporting that I decided to go with. And that's in a moment of contact, the first version, the mother of the girls was like, yeah, then these men in suits showed up and they were really

intimidated. I'm like, oh, my God, here they are again. And they really tried to offer them money, get your daughters to say they were lying, get them to say, and she's like, my daughters are not liars. I'm not going to do it. You can take this briefcase of money. You can leave and go to live somewhere else your life out. And the mother refused to do that. And they were quite adamant. They were quite insistent, put a lot of pressure on her. And they were poking around with other witnesses and getting them to, you know, this meeting never happened. We were never here, like that, that kind of thing. Yeah. So it's a really great case in the, and what makes it such a great case, there's so many people involved, and it's recent enough where the vast majority

of people are still alive. Right. And there are the retirement age, which makes big incentive, less to lose for people to come forward. Right. Now, they described it as the devil. Well, the girls did, well, they didn't know. We had red eyes and it stank, right? Right. You can understand that religious. Right. Yeah. Well, I got military folks that said, you know, that were directly involved with the

government, the UAP program. They were bringing direct evidence of craft, unknown origin, and they were told, oh, that's devil activity. I don't want to get it away from me. Yeah. People within the government. People within the Air Force. Harry Reid told me that, too.

Interesting. Yeah. There's a very, like, right-wing, highly religious. religious. Don't, this is all, all the devil. Get it away from me. Yeah. And Harry Reid said he couldn't even get people, sorry, he couldn't even get people to look at the evidence. They were like, it's demonic. Interesting. I mean, I get that. I grew up religious and this is what my mom would describe it as. So I understand. Oh, it's a big universe and there's a lot going on. Do you think there's multiple competing alien races? I have no idea. I really don't. I can tell you that different people see different things.

Uh, that's, that's an okay depiction. That's not, that's an okay depiction. But it doesn't look like a typical, a typical gray, right? No, it doesn't like a typical gray. I mean, the only thing that the big eyes, the communication through the eyes, the spindly body, that's, that I'm told right there on the right. Yeah, that one, that was done by a woman named Beto Beto Beto, Beti Rodriguez. And that was based on firsthand eyewitnesses. She worked directly with the three girls that came within 10 feet of it. And that was done. done in 1996. And apparently that's a really good depiction of what it looked like. So the fact that it doesn't look like a typical gray would lead one to believe like there's competing forces, something. I mean, people see different things. I mean, if you look at what Travis Walton reported, he had spindy little gray objects, but also up that beans that look like us. Yeah, the Nordics is always an interesting one. Why Nordics? I have no idea. You've heard people describe this firsthand. I find that to be the most unique sort of strange thing that's like,

yeah, aliens, da-da, also Swiss or Swedish. And it's like, what? Like, yeah, you know, blonde hair, blue eyes. We're getting into speculation at this point. I don't know. Yeah. I really don't. I don't know what the hell's going on. I'd like to know what's going on. And I'm coming to the point in my career where I'm probably not going to know what's going on. It's real. The phenomenon is real. And they're here. And they're intelligent. And they probably have an objection. and they're probably different races. I'm just guessing. I don't know.

I don't know. If you had to say more or less peaceful or not peaceful. That's a good question. Yes, I would say if they were here to do as harm, we would have known it. But I did talk to another very high-level people, very high-level, you know, and I said, I've heard that the bigger picture, not the big picture,

because I don't think anybody has the big picture, but the bigger picture, I heard it's a little scary. And a couple of them were like, yeah, I could see that. So I said, well, you're not poking a little further. Like, scary how? Like, intent. Okay, so what, their intentions aren't are harmless?

No, just the intent. And that's as far as I got. And it's an ongoing, like, I'm going to meet with those individuals and see if I could pry a little more out of them. But I got it to know them a little bit, get trust and right now so much of your career has been journalistic and sort of recounting other people's stories do you think at a certain point in your career you will put together more or less your thesis your worldview do you feel like have one do you feel like you have any type of

construct of like more or less like you know these things are coming from a different planet are they interdimensional i don't know multiverse humans from the past that have evolved in advanced consciousness could be all the above i i just multiple different things i i just don't know the more I learn, the more I don't know, and the more confused I am. It's real, they're here. That's, I put my life on it. But what their agenda is, what their origins are, I haven't got a clue. I really don't.

Using humans as slaves to mine our earth for precious materials. I think that anybody out there saying they know what's going on doesn't know what's going on. I don't believe it. I don't believe it. But the one thing that I did determine over the years, and this is based on, countless stories that I've heard. If they wanted to reveal themselves openly, they would just hover over the Macy's Day parade

and it would be game over. They don't do that. When they returned Travis, they didn't take him to where they took him. They didn't take him where they found him initially. The remote, I mean, super remote mountain range, I mean, he wouldn't have made it. He would have died.

I've been there, very remote. They dropped him off right on the outskirts, if one is going to believe the story as it happened. they dropped him off on the outskirts of town in an area that would minimize any potential of their exposure. So they did it like down in a valley so they went down below this end of this little dip

right on the outskirts of town near a phone box. So it's like if you are to believe that that story is true, which I do but I don't, your audience, that's fine. They cared about his well-being enough to do something. I think he got it in the force field

coincidentally of this thing was spooling up its energies, whatever, and he got somehow exposed to that. I think it was, they helped him. I think he'd hide, maybe. And then they dropped him off a week later. They dropped him off an area that would minimize any potential exposure. And what does that discretion indicate?

The fact that they're being discreet. They cared enough, but they didn't want to expose themselves. They don't. I mean, the phenomenon, sure, it'll go, there does some pretty bold moves every now and again. I mean, Phoenix Lights, that's a pretty bold move. You know, a lot of people saw that thing. Yeah.

And they flew over O'Hare Airport, 2005, I think. Grounded the flights? Terminals I-17 United Airlines, a disk-shaped object hovered over for a couple minutes over the terminal. And then when it left, it punched a donut-shaped hole in the clouds. Yeah, and apparently it's a photograph of it somewhere, but it hasn't surfaced yet. I mean, Zimbabwe is pretty... Zimbabwe is pretty incredible. Yeah, very incredible, pretty bold, yeah.

Westall, 1966, Melbourne, Australia. Yeah. 300 plus people. I mean, even Rendlesham Forest. Rens from Forest is good, more of a military thing that was a joint U.S. British base, but pretty obvious. Housing nuclear weapons,

and they were shooting beams of light into the weapon storage area. Yeah. One of the theories that I've heard that I find interesting is that there's more advanced in terms of consciousness and their understanding of how the universe

sort of operates and that they're interested in bringing us into that, right? This is sort of like Star Trek-y. But there's an interest in, you know, communicating with humankind, but that we're not evolved enough. Yeah, we're barbaric. In comparison. We're too busy killing each other. With these nukes.

Just, we're such idiots. And they've such a concern with nukes, like the fact that there's all, like, these sightings happen around nuclear testing. We're like cavemen with nuclear weapons. Yeah. A bunch of cavemen. I mean, I interviewed this astronaut, Story Musgrave. and I remember looking into his eyes and like this guy is like a brain surgeon or a heart surgeon he flies the space shuttle I mean he was like he made me look like a lazy good for nothing

like bag of you know just like I'm looking into his eyes and his eyes are these like a sparkly electric like the guy was just on all the time like looking into this and he goes yeah you know James, I just love, like, I love geography. When I'm flying the space shuttle, sometimes I just, I just look down and I just look down at Earth and I think about geography. Oh, that's going on here. Then I think about all the wars going on, how hostile we are as a race. Can't even get along with each other.

What are we going to, how are we going to look at an alien race? How are alien race going to look at us? You know, and he set this, like, I'm going to release that interview sometime soon because it didn't make it in the phenomenon. But he just talked about the fact that as someone to observe the Earth from that perspective, from space and look down and all, you know,

invisible borders and all that stuff, and then we're all fighting and killing each other and we're so hostile as a race, you know? He's like, would you want to make contact with us? Because I sure, damn, and hell wouldn't. Well, a lot of astronauts described that. There's a name for it, of Fred, exactly. It's like that epiphany that they have.

Yeah, they, you know, we'll, get outside of our, you know, atmosphere and look at Earth. Yeah, yeah. Edgimichel talked about that with me. What are we doing? Yeah. Right? Like, we have one tiny little planet.

They should send up all the world leaders in space. Bezos. Jeff Bezos, you can do this. Yes. Come on, baby. Don't send Katie Perry ride to space. Send Putin. One way ticket.

Yeah. That might work. We're doing just fine down here. Yes. Either that or make malady mushrooms. Either one. Mushrooms are good. Yeah, I think it's a great idea.

The president, that's elected. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You get dust. I'm having a lovely tea, potty. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Five grams. Just see something, you come back. You go, you know what, we should chill.

We're all good. Let's dismantle the nukes. Yeah, yeah. I love you. Yeah. Oh, man. Cressus, you had a question. I don't want to dispel.

Creasasas has been dying to ask. Okay, go for it. Do you have a thought on whether aliens visit us when we're about to use nuclear weapons? It's a great question, whether aliens. visit us when we're about to use nuclear weapons. So I remember when we were making the phenomenon,

and a really good friend of mine and fellow editor, Lance Bungea, at the time I didn't quite understand what he was doing, but he was like, James, we got all this historic sightings that happened here. Let's get a map. And let's put the map on the wall, and we'll put pins, and we'll film it every time there's a sighting in a particular area, historically. And I was like, thinking myself, I don't know a fucking map.

They want to have a map? He's like, come on, man, just humor me. Let's just see. So we put a map on the wall. And we were putting pins in all the different places. And we looked, well, guess where all the pins were? They were all around Trinity site. Trinity site was the first detonation of atomic bomb in 1945.

And is it a coincidence that all these sightings were happening all around that space when we were detonating? To me, that doesn't. And so that was sort of kind of sort of an organic way of, Hmm, you know. Then what I met with Senator Harry Reid, who's helped with Senator Inouye and Senator Stevens to launch OASAP and then ATIP, the UAP investigatory arm of the government. We did an interview. It was really funny because it was a defining moment of my career where I got the former Senate Majority Leader, Harry Reid. Thank you, George Knapp.

And he arrives and he was like, I'm going to get 47 minutes, you know, and he's got security, you know, people. And I remember this big, dude, looking at me. I wanted to get a picture with, it was a big moment for me. Harry Reid, like, holy shit,

he's a household name. And I kind of, kind of walked over to, you know, to Senator Reed when he first got there. And I see the guy kind of looking at me, like, what are you doing? You know, and I was like,

oh, can I take a picture? You know, so I took a picture with him. And we do the interview. And then I'm like, shit, I need a B-roll shot, the two of us walking. So I was like, oh, God, Senator Reid,

I know, you got to leave. He's like, all right, we've got to be quick. We got two minutes. So I was like, I looked at my buddy Dave, who's operating the camera. And I said, Dave, leave the sound gear. Who cares? Let's go. We got two minutes.

So I got walking the hallway like twice with him. And I figured, hey, I'm talking. I'm sitting there walking with Senator Reed. I'm going to ask him a question. Might as well get one in. Why didn't I ask him this question when the cameras were rolling earlier? I said, what during that 10-year investigation, what was one of the more astonishing aspects of what you uncovered.

And he goes, them disabling our nukes, flying over extremely sensitive nuclear. I was like, holy shit. This just came from the former Santa majority leader. Then I thought back when I was like in the edit room, we organically were putting pins and it was all around where we detonated the first atomic bomb. And I was like, shit, there's got to be a correlation.

There has to be. So I went back to the drawing board in the film, and I contacted Richard, he, Richard, Bob Haystine's, is it? The guy that wrote UFOs and nukes. And I contacted him and I said,

hey, I told him about the interview I just did with Senator Reid. And I was like, you're not going to believe it. We've all kind of suspected, but this connection. And I said, oh my God, he said that. I said, yeah. So I want to do a deep dive into these cases. And I know you're the leading guy. Robert Hastings, thank you.

And he goes, James, my head. health is really poor, take all of my materials, and have at it, have it all. So I put together a segment in the phenomenon with all these different cases that have happened where these UFOs were. So undoubtedly there's a connection there, undoubtedly. Would you cooperate with the foreign government if they had a good faith attempt at disclosure? Yeah, I would. Like if Russia, I mean, they're doing, you know, nuclear testing.

I was in Russia. I met with like cosmonaut in Russia and Star City, Russia. I met with generals there. in the 90s. And there was an open effort to want to start a dialogue with the United States. And they thought,

hey, funny enough, they thought I was Fox News because my last name is Fox. And the translator goes, let it, just let it go. Like, let them think that you're, you know, red carpet, holding the airplanes for us,

police escorts. Wow. Yeah. So this is a global cooperation to keep this suppressed. Well, because that's one thought, right? Why doesn't Russia come out and say,

well, we've seen them. China's, you know, You know, I think it boils down to the technology. We're not the only nation with retrieval. Yeah, no, question. No, no, we're not. Yeah, and I've talked to people that have seen some of the evidence from Russia, firsthand. So, you know, again, I've talked about age of disclosure.

I think they're really starting to talk about the race to whoever can harness this technology first. I know it sounds crazy to view, especially if you don't even think UFOs exist. I get it. But if they do have this stuff and if they can harness its technology, that's going to be a huge, like, advantage. And so that would be one of the primary reasons for secrecy, national security, because we don't want the Russians to know how much progress we've made and vice versa. Like, whoever gets this stuff first is like, wow, rock and roll. They don't look at like the philosophical implications. We're not alone. Isn't that beautiful?

Like group hug, you know. Yeah, yeah. Did we do? They're still on domination time. Yeah. Has America successfully reverse engineered it? Sometimes I think a little bit and sometimes I think not.

I really don't know. Do you think Bob Lazar's testimony is as legitimate as people say? I think that Bob Lazar believes everything he's saying and he's an extraordinary individual. I met him in the 90s when he was first coming out.

Oh, really? Yeah, I was at a conference. I was in my 20s. And I saw him and I was like, like, Bob Lazar. I had heard about him, right? And I was like, ran over to him. And I was like, I was like, Mr.

Razar, and I don't know what to make it. This is all new to me. I was like getting kind of, you know, I was like, my dad thought I was crazy. And I said, I said, I just want to thank you for coming forward. And he looked at me and he goes, I didn't have a choice. And that was it. And then that was my only time I ever met him.

Really? Yeah, I didn't have a choice. Nobody said. Wow. I had to come forward for survival, I guess. I don't know. I don't know. But it's like, there's interesting aspects.

Like you try to completely debunk him and then George Knapp, who I trust implicitly, George Knapp's like, not so fast. There was this and there was that. He was at Los Alamos. Yes, he was at Los Alamos. We found his name in this book. We don't, uh, there's another person that remembers him being there. It's complicated.

Mm-hmm. It's complicated. That's, you talked about it earlier. Like, for instance, let's just say that, let's say it's true. Okay. maybe, just maybe. Maybe they expose him to some real stuff and they expose him to some not so real stuff

thinking that this guy is probably the kind of guy that's going to leak this shit, it's going to go public. So let's just gaze the general interest of the public or maybe we give some reality and some, excuse me, some stuff that's not true, and see what happens. Maybe that happened with him.

Maybe. Maybe some of the stuff is real and some of the stuff isn't real. And that's not his fault. Right. But what he's sharing... What he's sharing, he believes. No question. You meet him and he's like... And he'll even say, I don't know.

I'm not sitting here saying I totally endorse everything. Sure. I don't know. But it's not a quick dismiss this guy. Yeah. Well, James, I can speak with you all day. This is fantastic. I really appreciate it. Thank you. It's a been a pleasure. Truly a pleasure. Thank you. Thanks for having you.

Where can I see the new doc? How can I access it? It's called Moment of Contact, New Revelations of Alien Encounters. It'll be released December 22nd on Amazon and Apple and Google Play. And if you want to get in touch with me, I'm found on X, James C. Fox. And I try my best to respond to as many people as I can. And I always post all the links, all the information about my films, anything relevant will be there. And if people want to get up to speed prior to that dock dropping. Watch the phenomenon.

you can watch the program. You can watch them for free. They're on YouTube movies. They're all over the place. Yeah. But you can watch them for free on YouTube movies if you don't mind watching a couple commercials. Well, James, thank you so much.

This has been truly a pleasure, and I look forward to doing it again. Thanks. Appreciate it. Thank you. What's up, guys? Today's episode is sponsored by a little podcast called Camp Gagnon.

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