Camp Gagnon - Why Humans and Dogs Evolved Together

Episode Date: October 21, 2025

David Ian Howe is an American anthropologist and archaeologist known for creating engaging educational videos about anthropology. David specializes in ethnocynology, the scientific and cultural study of the relationship between humans and dogs throughout history. David joins us to talk about the origins of dog and human relationships, how dogs helped humans evolve, dogs in ancient folklore, and other interesting topics... WELCOME TO CAMP! 🏕️Shoutout to our sponsor: BlueChew, Morgan&Morgan and RelayJoin the Relay App community HERE: http://www.joinrelay.app/camp👕🧢 GET YOUR CAMP DRIP HERE: http://camp-rd.com🎟️ 🎫 Comedy Tour Tickets Here: https://markgagnonlive.com🎩👽 Daily Dose Of History Here: https://www.dailytodayinhistory.comTimestamps:0:00 Meet David Ian Howe4:23 The Origins of Dog & Human Relationship18:00 How Dogs Helped Humans Evolve22:28 Ancient Dog Breeding25:15 Breeding Dogs For Cuteness28:10 Using Animal Pelts as Disguise32:49 Dogs In Ancient Folklore37:01 How Dingo’s Got To Australia + Wombat Poop Is Cubed47:09 Cave Dwelling Animals 48:55 Cultures That Eat Dogs 55:23 How Did We Get Dog Breeds1:04:31 Romulus & Remus + Werewolves1:09:37 The Dire Wolf1:13:42 Issues With De-Extinction 1:18:31 Evolution of Eyebrows1:21:52 Why Your Dog Does Weird Things1:25:40 Wolf-Like Traits of Dogs Today1:28:20 Gators Natural Instincts1:30:45 Dog Fighting Ring Busted + Mongolian Army Dog1:35:38 Why Do Dogs Howl + Birds Doing Baby Talk1:39:29 What Are The Zoomies?1:40:52 Is Kibble Good For Your Dog?1:45:16 Why Do Dogs Sniff Butts1:49:39 Foods Dogs Can’t Eat1:51:57 Origins of Playing Fetch + Belly Rubs1:53:08 Meaning Behind Showing Teeth1:54:28 Dogs Mental Health Issues1:56:38 The Evolution of Child Birth2:01:23 Stone Age Tools2:08:22 Meteoric Iron2:10:15 The Evolution of Conversation#podcast #history #mystery #dog #dogs

Especially in Mesopotamia, they were gambling a lot. They were betting. They probably had dogs that were fast and doing all that. Oh, you think they were doing dog racing? We know that in Egypt, for sure. And in the Middle East, they were, the saluki itself. It's just the fast greyhounds were bred for hare hunting, really. But that for sure turned into like a bunch of Chinese guys gambling in a basement.

No way. This is David Ian Howe, an anthropologist who studies ancient human beings and their dogs. Now, you probably heard dogs are a man's best friend. But have you ever wondered how? this symbiotic relationship started. Two species, both apex predators who had to slowly learn to trust each other. They've helped us hunt, guarded our camps, herded our livestock, and have even been a part of our mythology. But how did this bond form? Why did wolves choose us and why did we choose them? So if you love your dog, all dogs, or interested in how years of evolution have made

you biologically drawn to your very pooch, we'll sit back, relax, and well. Welcome to camp. David Ian Howe, how are you? Good, man. How about you? I'm excellent. Thank you so much for joining me. I know you're kind of from this neck of woods. Yeah. You were just regaling me. Out on the island. Yeah. Out on the island. Yeah. That's the thing New Yorkers always say that kind of bugs me. Right. Say on the island. Yeah, you're like on the subway, on, you know, on the beam, I guess, but you're on the island as well. Online. That's another thing New Yorker say. Like, like if you're going to, you know, you're in Starbucks and there's a bunch of people waiting to order coffee. Yeah. Everyone else in the world says, oh, Stan, Stan.

inline. But New Yorkers say stand online. That one I haven't even noticed. That's a good point. You say online, right? Yeah. I mean, America online, I guess. But... No, Gabe, do you say online or inline? He doesn't speak. So it's fine. It's fine. Okay. Regardless, out on the island, and now you're here in the campsite in my beautiful tent, out deep in the Adirondacks. It's cozy. Not in Brooklyn. We're far, far away. Somewhere upstate, maybe. Maybe in Pennsylvania. Maybe we're in the Poconos. Maybe. Maybe we're in Woodside.

Who even knows, all right? But at the end of the day, you are here for one reason, one reason only because today we're talking about two of my favorite topics in the entire world. And you were also introduced to me by one of my favorite people in the whole world, our good friend Donnie Dust. He's the man. And during our conversation, I was just kind of BSing about dog stuff. And he was like, you should talk to a dog expert.

And I was like, well, that's not a thing. And he was like, no, no, there is a guy that I know that I flint nap with. And his name is David Ian Howe. and he's a wonderful, there's a word for it, remind me again. Ethnocinologist. And what is an ethnocinologist? It is the study of dogs and people in human cultural contexts. Basically dog history.

You're a dog anthropologist, and that's, again, two of my favorite things, history and dogs. So can you just explain to the people kind of your background and your research, what you like to lecture on? And then basically, we're just going to start from the very beginning. Tell me the history of the dog man relationship. Yeah, man. So I got really into history as a kid. Went to school for that. Realized you can't really, you know, get a job with that.

So you're like, let's go more specific. Yeah, yeah. Let me get very much more niche. And then I took an anthropology class where we watched Chappelle's show, actually. And she was telling us, like, she put the blind white supremacist on. Yeah. And it was kind of like, why is this funny? You know, the one where he's like the blind white supremacist.

Absolutely. And it, you know, it's about race and all that and stuff. And like, the cultural aspect of racism. And I was like, oh, this is interesting. But we also talked about stone tools, monkeys, primates, apes. So I got really into history, archaeology, and then I took a bunch of anthropology classes, which got me to stone tools. And then in one of those classes, they talked about dogs and people being, you know, this

basically relationship that's been around forever. And I kind of was like, when did that start? Like go back, like stop. I want to learn more about that. This mutualistic evolution. Yeah. And then like most paintings of the Ice Age and things like that are like artistic. renderings. You always see a dog, which might not be completely accurate because it's an artistic

rendering. Right. I still was like, well, where did these dogs come from? Yeah. And then I looked more into that, and I went to grad school for hunter-gatherer anthropology. This was out in Wyoming. It's like one of the best schools for it. And just did all of my research on dogs and like, how do I, you know, how do I learn more about this? And yeah, so stone tools, I can make stone tools, did all that, hunter-gatherer stuff. And it just goes hand-in-hand with how humans operate zoologel on a landscape is how dogs came to be, if that makes sense. Like as a tool almost. Yeah.

So like in, I always say this too, like fire or stone tools first, then we had fire. Then there's dogs and then agriculture. So it's like way before that too. Wow. Yeah. I mean, that makes sense, right? They would be like pre-agrarian like hunter gatherers still. Yeah.

And then on this level of like human development, dogs are up there in terms of what brought us to actually becoming like the homo sapiens we are today. Is that a fair estimate? I don't think we've had enough time to like fully co-evolve with them in that sense. Like we didn't, it didn't affect our evolution that much, but our social evolution, for sure. Okay. Because anywhere where there's agriculture or there's other domestic animals, there's always dogs first. Because dogs can help you herd goats.

They can help you herd cattle and all that to become, you know, domestic livestock. Right. But in terms of like adjusting our brains, not so much, but adjusting a dog's brain, absolutely. So take me back to the beginning. Let's paint a picture because I think, I mean, at least this is the story I've heard. It's like, you got a hundred gatherers. They're kind of like nomadic bands of people, maybe like, you know, a couple dozen. And they're kind of living out in like, you know, the woods somewhere, maybe a jungle

somewhere. And all of a sudden, like these wolves kind of come around. Right. And they see these wolves and they're like, oh, we got to be careful these wolves because these wolves are going to try to eat us. We've been battling wolves for a while. And then slowly they kind of start throwing food to the wolves or like the wolves will come around and like scrap food from wherever they used to be and they'd kind of

follow them around and the wolves would be there and the humans would be there. And then over time, they create this sort of mutualistic relationship or like the wolves kind of offer protection and the humans are giving them food and then they kind of both slowly domesticate. Mostly the wolves are slowly domesticating into being, you know, the animals that we know today. Yeah. So that's, I think, probably the most reduced version of it. How... Pretty on the ball. So what else is there to that story that paints the picture from how we go from, you know, homo sapiens running around with, you know, sticks and spears to actually living with dogs as hunter-gatherers? Yeah. So, I mean, the main thing is humans are obviously primates.

bipedal primates we evolved in Africa. We eventually leave Africa at some point. It's debated how many times or how often. But once we get out of Africa and you're living in more cold or temperate and then colder and then kind of Arctic environments, especially in Siberia, we're running into wolves quite a bit. And wolves get into this kind of predicament where it's, you got to adapt to this invasive firewielding primate that's here that's also an apex predator, very good at using the landscape and surviving.

And they have to kind of adapt to that or, you know, die out in a sense. I don't know if it was that dire, but, you know, it's something like that. That's how evolution works. And then after a certain amount of time, it's just dogs or wolves, excuse me, are learning, okay, rather than die out or, like, move territories, we can just start scavenging human camps. And it's either humans or throwing bones or, you know, maybe they're adopting the pups or something like that.

But at some point, the natural selection of wolves was like, we need to adapt to these primates that are here. And kind of you can reduce all anthropology and zoology down to what's called behavioral ecology, which is the basically all humans or animals have to operate for the most bang for their buck. So you want to exert the least amount of calories for the most gain. And for wolves, it would have been easy enough rather than hunting and taking out a bison, maybe getting kicked in the ribs or the face. Right. Or a caribou, really.

You're then going in and just scavenging bones, and that would have been the natural selective process of that. And this was Siberia is where people estimate the first, like, wolf human sort of mutual contact was happening? Yeah. Siberia is the genetically and archaeologically seems to be the case. Interesting. Could have been other places, but it seems like there. Because all my black friends are always like, dude, the world. way that white people act with their dogs is just you guys let them kiss you on the mouth,

they sleep in the bed, you guys are crazy. But it might be an anthropological record that dogs are kind of white people shit from the get-go. It's just these Siberians that have to live with these wolves and then slowly we just kind of become friends of them. Yeah. I mean, it would have been like Asian-looking people up there for sure. Oh, so it is. But. Yeah. Yeah, being weird with the dogs first, kissing them on the mouth and stuff. Making out of dogs. Don't rip. Yeah. But I would like to see an anthropological study on why white people are so weird with I have black friends have also brought that up to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't know if science can answer that. That might be a spiritual question. You know, I mean, that might go deeper than anything, you know? Yeah. So I'm curious though why wolves? Because I'm sure other animals got this idea like, oh, there's this apex predator that's running around with fire. Yeah.

They're leaving around all this debris of like, you know, animal residue and scraps. Like why wouldn't, you know, like some other type of, you know, creature, like a raccoon or something, walk around and be like, oh, we can, we can use this. Like, why was it wolves that's selected? Is there any answer for that? Yeah, I mean, primates ourselves are just highly complex social animals. That's how we are. Human adaptation is culture.

So the ability to pass on knowledge to the next generation that's not, you know, in your DNA. Wolves aren't primates by any means. They're carnivores. But they are also, like, among the many, like, apex predators and social animals. They're, like, among the most social. So it would have been that humans in those areas, as would have noticed wolves, they're monogamous in a sense. They have kinship structures that are similar to humans.

It's kind of an inevitable coalition, I guess, because they're both just so social and the way that humans and dogs obviously now can just interact with each other and we can talk to each other in a sense that would have happened way in the past. Oh, that's fascinating. So humans and dogs have similar sort of like cultural behavioral patterns that developed in parallel. So they didn't develop together from the get-go, but like wolves were monogamous and pro-social even before contacting humans. Yeah, so it would have been like the ability to socialize with each other. So the tail wagging, the throwing, you know, meat to each other, I would say that's

the main thing. The way that, like, you know, the way you talk to a dog now is just feeding treats and that's how you essentially communicate how you train them. Right. You withhold food, if you know for certain reasons or you give them more food to would be the word, you know, praise them or whatever. Right. Throwing wolves' bones back in the day, people would have figured out, okay, they leave us alone if we do that. And the ones that are aggressive would probably go away.

And so now the timeline that we're talking here, like this Siberian period of kind of like these hunter-gatherers interacting with wolves, how far back does that go? About 20,000 years is genetically when we see dogs kind of arise. Like if you would have boiled up, DNA down and see when dogs come about. It's about 20,000 years. But in my mind, it's probably like long before that, the interaction of humans,

as soon as we left Africa, really. The interaction between humans and wolves is like forming that bond that domestication is starting. Wow. Yeah. That's interesting. So, I mean, what is the general agreed upon consensus for like leaving after? Is that like 100,000, 75,000 years ago?

Um, off the top of my head, I can't exactly remember. It's like 200,000 to 100,000 years. that paleoanthropology changes quite often all the time. But we're looking at a long window. I mean, if dogs are coming on the horizon bound like 20,000 years ago, there's potentially another 20,000 at least years of human beings, kind of seeing these wolves and then slowly getting domesticated over time. Like that's a pretty long span.

I would agree. Yeah. So like Homer Rectus leaves Africa, I think about a million years ago, ish. And then modern humans come out later. But either way, there's hominids that are stone tool and fire using creatures that are in these wolf biomes that are now, you know, the wolves are going to have to adapt to. Oh, that's a good point, right? Like, there's other, like, non-human bipedal apes that are interacting with wolves in some capacity, like Neanderthals or whatever else. They're having some type of, you know, relationship.

Yeah. That's interesting. And there's a theory, too, that, like, Neanderthals might have gone to extinction because humans and wolves moving into Europe and Eurasia where those, you know, Neanderthals and Denisovans lived are out competing those former hominids because they have a better ability to adapt to the environment. No way. Yeah.

I don't know how much of it is completely true. Sure, but that theory exists. Yeah. That's fascinating that that was a competitive advantage against other what would you call that? Like hominids? Yeah, other extinct hominids, Neanderthals, Denisovans. Oh, that's fascinating. Yeah. Do we think that

any other hominids had relationships with the wolves, the way that homo sapiens did? Like, did Neanderthals? Like, is there any research or any... I mean, I'm sure the archaeological record is probably so sparse, but is there anything like that? None that's like concrete evidence.

There's like wolf footprints in a few caves, I think. There's tons of hanging up footprints too, but in terms of like wolves and Neanderthals interacting, I don't think there's any current concrete evidence of that. Oh, dude, if I was a dog and my master was a Neanderthal. Yeah. And I would be so pissed. I'd be like, dude, I got the best. master in the world. Then you see like a homo sapien with a dog and he's sitting on the couch and

you're like, damn it, dude, I got the wrong one. They get the better food. Yeah, I know. You'd be like so pissed. You're like, I back the wrong horse here. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So that makes a lot of sense. So you have this timeline where it's like, okay, basically we leave Africa, get in relationship with wolves. And then around 20,000 years ago, they start to become what we know as a dog, more or less. Yeah. And what exactly is happening in that window where now they're like cohabitating. What is like the early period of human beings cohabitating with dogs? Probably a lot of hunting together. And if not hunting where we're like actually, you know, whistling and telling them what to do and stuff like that, they would have just been following

humans around, almost akin to how raccoons are today. It's kind of like a good example of domestication because they're getting better at coming to human environments. They'll come to our trash cans and stuff. Like, I don't think there's raccoons in New York, but giant rats. Yeah, we got rats. It's basically raccoons. They use their hands to eat pizza. Yeah. But at that point, it would have been, like, dogs interacting way more with human camps and things like that.

And then while we're hunting either, and Donnie's kind of posed this to, like, we kill something, like a caribou, for example, and, you know, you stab it, it's bleeding, and you've got to chase it for a bit. Wolves might beat you to the carcass kind of thing. Or we were just shoeing, you know, wolves away from an animal carcass,

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Now, I've heard the theory floated that like animals, specifically dogs, helped human beings evolve in certain capacities. And there's probably some like very direct ways, but there might be some like subliminal ways. And I can, I've heard like different theories of, you know, different ones. So I'm curious in what ways did cohabit. with wolves and dogs by proxy actually help human beings evolve and become even more dominant. Yeah.

One major thing before dogs are about, you have, humans are much better at thermoregulatory, you know, behavior. So we can take bone needles and make a complex clothing to allow us to live in these colder climates and environments and things like that. Neanderthals weren't so good at that. They would just kind of almost hibernate in caves half the time. Or they would at least experience torpor. So like a prolonged state of just like, I'm fucked. Like, it's just so cold, you know? I can't go outside and hunt.

What's the word for that? You said torpor? Torper, yeah. Which is just a fancy word. Just like, yo, shit sucks. Yeah. It's when you're like depressed in a cave, you know, inert kind of thing. Yo, I've been on some torbers, dude.

That shit is happening to me. Yeah. I've kind of experienced it right now, actually. No, dude. But, yeah. How since I've been doing this podcast, dude? I've been torping out, dude. I think the Celsius.

kicked in. That's why it's so cold, dude. That's what I called Celsius. That's crazy. I never thought about that. Come on, dude. Okay, there we go. There you go.

You got the master's degree. Yeah, so we can get into these more cold environments, and that's what's allowing us to get near these wolves better. But once, you know, you have wolves, you then have, or sorry, domestic dog. I'm going to keep using that interchangeably, but you know what I mean? Domestic dogs, you now have an animal that can see, or we see better, but they can smell better, hear better. all that. You don't have to exactly stay in a cave to worry about bears and lions and things

like that. You have a wolf that can just sit outside of structure on the planes and, you know, smell or hear something coming up. You don't have to worry about it as much. So defense is a big element. Yeah, defense and like century, I guess, it can just tell you when there's a tiger outside. Right. Because before that, we know people are being eaten by cats and birds and stuff like that long before that. And I've heard that this idea of like specifically just having defense, It's like just a century, like having a guard dog or like a watchdog helps human beings, like, sleep better. It gives like more free time. And all of these things ultimately create more innovation.

You're able to like create more complex tools. You're able to like observe like, you know, like animal patterns. You're able to sleep more, which like has like tremendous benefits to like just cognitive health. Yeah. Oh, boy agree. Are there other things in that regard where like just having dogs nearby just like genuinely changed. like our physiology? Um, I think, yeah, the sleep thing.

And then, because I know psychologically, if you're sleeping with another person, you sleep more soundly, because it's kind of defense, I guess, in a sense, or safety. Wolves, it's the same thing. And like, when you have a dog, you do sleep better. You sleep more soundly, I think. I for sure do. Like, after my dog passed, I was just like, the fuck is going on. I get my house ever night.

Yeah, I know. So this is, I've not had this before because I had like a giant German shepherd that was huge. Nice. And, like, one. Once that line of defense is gone, you're like, I'm definitely getting like robbed tonight or something. Yeah. What was his name?

Strider. Strider. Yeah. He's a big boy. He's the guy on the thumbnail up there. And he slept on the bed? He hated it. Actually.

Really? Yeah. So funny enough, and this kind of goes into your question, he would have multiple like spots in the house where he would sleep where he had an eye on me and on the door. No way. Yeah. Some kind of like entryway. That's him right there. Big boy.

He's at Elkhound and German Shepherd. But yeah, he would sleep like kind of looking down the hallway right outside my door or he'd sleep by the front door looking at down where basically I would come to because he couldn't be chill. He wouldn't chill out unless he knew I was like safe, which is pretty cool. And I never taught him that. Like it would be way too much work to teach him that. I can barely have time to teach him to sit. But like, yeah, he just did that. So I think wolves back then, they have that ability to like they're constantly patrolling their territory.

They're talking, howling with each other, other wolf packs, they want to defend their territory. They're always vigilant. So having that essentially like an AI flesh robot that's outside your house doing that or a village, people can just, you know, expand into anywhere across the planet. Yeah, that's so fascinating. Yeah. Now, were they breeding them? You can see genetically, I can't think of the name of the study right now, but you can, like

dogs being traded across the old world. So about 20,000 years ago, once they start getting domesticated. And like we see dogs genetically. There's like, you know, you can see genetically them going to across Eurasia into the Americas down into Africa and all that. And you can kind of see, you know, my dog. If you have 200 gatherers bands that are kind of communicating with each other because you've got to meet to exchange goods and, you know, children. So you don't get inbred. Yeah.

You have probably like my dogs are faster. These ones are black. These ones are, you know, better at they don't need to eat as much or something. They're better at the cold. This one swims. More obedient, whatever. Yeah, something like that. You're trading dogs just like you're trading stone tools or any other kind of commodity.

Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. So we can track dogs across the world like that. Wow. Were there any like hunter-gather groups that we know of, maybe even to like more contemporary, you know, history that were masters at dog breeding? Or they were masters of like rearing dogs? Once the neolithic comes about. So after agriculture and like the rise of complex.

civilization, you do have just a boom. Like anywhere you see farming and agriculture, you do see dogs, like, their population boom as well. So there's no, like, you know, I can't dig up a site and see a kennel, you know, or like this guy was definitely breeding dogs here. But you can just assume, because we know in like big complex sives, you have people that are now making barrels all day, people that are making shoes, there's soldiers, there's, you know, someone that specializes in just stone tools where everyone else is farming

or something, you probably have a kennel master who's like, especially in like Mesopotamia or like Ur, or Uruk, those old cities, they're gambling a lot. They were betting. They probably had dogs that were fast and doing all that. Oh, you think they were doing dog racing? Oh, for sure. Really? Yeah, we know that in Egypt, for sure.

And in the Middle East, they were, uh, the Saluki itself is just the fast greyhounds were bred for hair hunting, really, but that for sure turned into like a bunch of Chinese guys gambling in a basement. No way. Yeah. Just throwing stacks down. Watching dogs. That's crazy. How far, I mean, how long ago was, is that like Middle Kingdom, like Old Kingdom? In terms of Egypt, I'm not sure, but basically 10,000 years ago onward when the Ice Age ends, you have, like, the dog breeds kind of changed this more slender, standardized dog. And then in places like that, you have more specialized breeds like the Saluki.

Oh, that's fascinating. Yeah. It's probably for hair hunting, but they're definitely gambling. Right. I mean, I imagine they have like, you know, dual purpose. You know what I mean? Like you breed them for some type of practical use. And then, slowly that becomes kind of like an entertainment kind of, you know, system afterwards. I would agree. So I'm curious, like, was cuteness a trait that was selected for? Absolutely. So it's selected for and it's also just a byproduct of domestication. If you think of like an ibex is a wild goat with the big horns.

Yeah, yeah, crazy looking. A mofwan, I think is a wild like sheep, big horn sheep out west are kind of the same thing. and then aurochs are an extinct kind of cow. That's what cows were bred from. They get what's called domestication syndrome. And as you breed them down to a domestic animal, they're losing those like robust aggression-looking traits, like the big horns and all that stuff.

And they're bred down to like a petting zoo goat where they're cute. We literally call it a kid, like baby goat. Dogs for a solid example, like if you think of a pug, it's just a human face. That's like we've bred it to be. Let's get a picture of pug, did you? Yeah. A picture of pug immediately.

Like a loaf of bread with feet. Yeah. So it just has this human face that's flat. The nose is up here. There's no snout. You're making, I mean, it kind of sucks. You're just making this, like, taking a wolf and smashing it down into that. But a byproduct of domestication is the ears flop down.

The eyes get bigger. There's less, like, scary-looking traits to it. Interesting. And that's just genetic. So you can see that with most animals. and that keeps the cuteness, so we want to protect it more. I've read that they have,

like, almost like more expression. That, like, modern dogs, like, compared to wolves, like, you can see them, they kind of, like, raise their eyebrows and, like, turn their heads. Like, they almost react as, like, a mirror to human expression. Is that a trait that, rather directly or indirectly,

was bred into, you know, dogs that we have today? I wonder how much of that was just, like, right there at the first human, and a wolf that met and started talking or, you know, interacting or whatever, with their eye, what do you call it, eye movement, eye coordination, their eye language or whatever. But yeah, after a certain amount of time, it's just like that kind of just exacerbates and we can, like dogs communicate, the puppy dog guy is right there. I keep looking at it. Like, it's like, it's telling you something like, please feed me, protect me, that kind of thing.

And it's not, you have a kid. I'm sure you see it with your kid. Oh, absolutely. It's called neotony in scientific. So the something retaining juvenile traits into adulthood. So those juvenile traits that your kid has right now, when you look at it, you want to protect it. Domestic animals have that as they get older. So they look cute. They look like puppies into adulthood mainly.

Interesting. And that helps their longevity. I would agree. Like human beings are more likely to take care of them, maybe their own or more likely to take care of them based on like how cute and like non-aggressive they look. Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. It's super interesting.

I hope that answered your question. Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. You even said something in your lecture. Yeah. Which, where was that lecture again? It was the University of Wyoming. It was awesome.

Thank you. It's a great lecture. It's got like 600,000 views on YouTube. People should check it out. But you make a point in there that I would love for you to expound on. Another way that wolves and sort of being around wolves helped human beings hunt. There's the obvious examples where it's like, hey, if we're going on a hunt, the wolves are going with us. They're going to track that an animal.

They're going to help us catch a scent of an animal. The things that I think people kind of associate. sort of human dog hunting behavior. But you brought up this idea with the bison and that early hunter-gatherers would wear wolf pelts and that that would help them hunt. You definitely watch the lecture. This was a fascinating. This was a fascinating tidbit.

Can you expound on that? And how does wearing wolf pelts help them hunt other than looking sick? Yeah, man. I don't remember if this was the Kiowa or somebody else on the plains, but it was a plains tribe of indigenous peoples. And the French observed this, the Americans observed this, just everyone did. They would wear wolf pelts, like, you know, just like a pelt, and they'd crawl up to the bison or whatever. And what's interesting, and this gets into the whole megafauna debate, like how did the megafauna go extinct?

They're not used to people, especially in the Americas because it was so isolated for so long. So bison know how to interact around wolves. They circle up, elephants do something similar, where when a wolf comes to attack, they will, like, circle up, they protect the young, things like that. when they see a naked primate with a spear, they might not be as back then. Now they know not to go near people. Or in Yellowstone, they kind of don't care either, but they're used to the tourists there. But yeah, they will circle up and try to protect the young. But humans learned, okay, if I wear a wolf felt, they'll do that same thing.

So you can predict how they're hunting or how they're acting and you can get a good shot. I think sometimes they would use what's called an atlattle, the big spear thrower thing. The bow and arrow wasn't invented for a long time, at least in the Americas, but I think the picture in the lecture, he has a bow and arrow. But you get right up under the bison because you can predict what they're doing, and bison are gigantic and can kill you with like just a stomp or their head. So it would have been pretty dangerous to do that at first. So having that added protection of, I know they're going to do this if I dress like a wolf really helps. So I think that's an adle, yeah. It's an Aztec word for a lot, is what it's.

called, but it's just a lever device that you throw a big spear with. They probably would have been using that. But yeah, you can just basically hunt more efficiently by mimicking wolves. And I think back in the day, like when we left Africa and got to Eurasia, we're watching wolves do that kind of stuff and doing those same things. But we can at least observe it on the planes. That is so interesting to me. You basically have bison and wolves going at it for like millennia that they've just been battling each other. And as a result, the bison. create a defense mechanism how to deal with wolves. They move in this predictable way.

The wolves know how to hunt them. And it's just a dance that's been going on forever. Yeah. And then human beings show up and the bison don't know what to do. So they're skittish. They behave erratically and chaotically. But when they dress as wolves, they can trick the bison into thinking that they're wolves and behaving in the way that they're used to observing them.

And then you can get right under them and sneak attack. It's just like, one, human ingenuity. And two, thanks to the wolves. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Like, appreciate that. You know what I mean? Yeah, plus one for them.

Because it's remarkably fascinating how it means monkey see monkey do, essentially, how humans adapt to a landscape. But most of archaeology is understanding how humans use the environment they're in to, you know, adapt and survive kind of thing. Right. So that like wolves being part of that environment would have been like a learning tool, but also you had to work around it kind of thing. Right. I mean, that's just like so brilliant. I wonder, I wonder if they do that with other animals. Like I can imagine early hunter-gatherers like basically using.

the way other animals hunt and they're like, okay, we can do some version of this. You know what I mean? Like, we're like, we'll camouflage, we'll hide somewhere. You know what I mean? Like, we'll run and chase them down and we can outrun them. Yeah. But just straight up dressing like wolves, I'd never heard that before. Yeah, me either until I read it in that. It's called an ethnography. So, like, when the French would write, here's what the natives were doing and stuff. And like, you just read that. And like, that's really cool. So, so clever. Yeah. Oh, that's wild. In terms of other animals, I can't really think of something off top of my head, but I do know you're watching birds and other animals, especially like the early peoples in the Americas coming through

and colonizing it, or peopling it, I guess, back in the day in the Ice Age. You're probably watching animals eat certain like fungi because you don't want to trip balls and eat or get poisoned and shit yourself to death. This is the story, I think, with ayahuasca that I've heard this. Like, it's sort of folklore, but like that the Jaguars, what ultimately led the, I don't even know, the Mayans. But basically like central Mesoamerican, you know, indigenous people. I don't actually know it was the people before the people, I think is how they describe them.

Oh, okay. Like the Mayans would talk about this like proto tribal group that didn't even have a name. They're just like the people before. Okay. That the Jaguar showed them how to find ayahuasca. Because like to find ayahuasca, like you have to mix these two different, like you basically have to mix like a mushroom with a tree bark. Huh. And you have to make like a brew out of the tree bark.

I did hear this. And then mix it. It's like a very complex form of chemistry that gives, like, a mushroom. like this, the most insane hallucination, especially for people, you know, 20,000 years ago. Yeah. And so, I mean, yeah, they would have been tripping. And so for them to figure this out is, like, pretty remarkable. And their story is like, oh, yeah, the Jaguar showed us.

And so some people think, like, oh, maybe that is a semi-true story of, like, a Jaguar eating these two things simultaneously and then having this weird hallucination where, like, they're looking at this Jaguar just, like, absolutely tripping balls. Yeah. Other people think it's just like, oh, this is folklore for, like, you know, a human being did it, and then they said it was the gods or whatever. whatever else. Yeah. But that idea of like watching animals eat stuff, I mean like, oh, that stuff is good to eat, that stuff is bad to eat. It's just, you know, again, just really ingenious, you know. I would agree. Yeah. I don't know how much of a mix of both of that it is, especially for ayahuasca, but, uh, because it is, yeah, like a complex potion, essentially. Truly.

Like, how do these two things interact that way and then know what it does when you drink it? But yeah. Yeah. I imagine a lot of stuff is just watching animal behavior. And we can get into this later, but with like anubis and Egyptian mythology. Dogs always kind of serve as like a spirit guide where they appear when you die and they help you meet the other gods or whatnot. I think that comes from scavenging bones and things like that and how dogs were, you know, how they came to be from scavenging carcasses and all that stuff. Oh, interesting. So Anubis, yeah, when you die in Egyptian mythology, he grates you and, like, put your heart on the scale or whatever. And, like, you face the judgment of a dog, which is, like, really interesting to me in itself. But I think that comes, and he's the god of the dead. So I think that comes from jackals, scavenging tombs and all that.

And in Aztec mythology as well, there's a Sholot is the dog god. It's Ketzelkwatz brother. And they're cousin or something like that. But he, uh, same thing. Dogs will ferry you across the river to the land of the dead. So if you were kind of dogs, they'll help you cross it or whatnot. But I think, especially in Aztec mythology too, when the, they were creating the world, there's like four iterations of it.

Then the last time, they got a bunch of bones that didn't work correctly. Tried to make all these people. You know, it's kind of just, you know, how those pantheon religions go, there's a million different ways to talk about it. But Ketzelquat and Shalot go down to the underworld and find a bunch of bones. And it's just interesting that the main god and his dog go down, they find bones and the dog finds the bones. They bring that back up to the world and then make the final iteration of people out of those bones.

Interesting. Yeah. So it's connected. Right. So, yeah, I guess the early, you know like cohabitation with dogs then influences the folklore that then comes from those agrarian societies yes exactly that i think right it's super interesting and i know a lot of people might try to connect like oh did the egyptians meet with the aztecs or something like that but i probably not they

probably both had dogs yeah exactly yeah and they just the dogs have the same behavior they scavenged dead stuff and just kind of arises from that right i mean again i love those theories not gonna be wrong yeah they're fascinating dude the aztecs and the egyptians were boys i'm like All right. I mean, they both had pyramids. They both had dogs going to the afterlife. But then there's also like, all right, well, maybe that's just like the best way to stack up stones really high is making them into a pyramid. And if they both have dogs, they're probably using them for similar reasons. And, you know, it's not impossible that they would deduce, you know, similar folklore from having similar relationships with these dogs. Yeah.

Yeah. It's just, I don't know, to me that's fascinating. Yeah, the Egyptians loved animals in this way, huh? Really did. Huge statues of them. Cats, dogs. Like, they would, like, deify them effectively. Yeah, there's one that's like a hippo, crocodile and like parrot at the same time or something. Right. I don't know what it is. But now, would you say that every prehistoric civilization had a relationship with dogs? The only place that, yes, the only place that dogs don't really get to early on is like South America and Australia for a bit.

Makes sense. Because they can't get through the tropics for whatever reason. I guess it's because like when early peoples are exploring the tropics, you can boil water. and no not to drink the putrid shit, but a dog's going to sneak off and drink it and it dies or something? I don't know what it is, but eventually the dingo gets to Australia, or a domestic dog that becomes a dingo.

How does that, is that back in Pangea days? But how does he get to Australia? Yeah, this is like, this is post Ice Age, so post 20,000 years where dogs are about, ice age ends 10,000 years ago. And then you have,

I think the dingo gets to Australia genetically by 10,000 years, The earliest dingo remains are about 3,000 or 4,000 years old. But it was a domestic dog brought to the continent by seafaring people, either on a boat or something like that. There was a land bridge at that time. But most of Southeast Asia, it was called Walacia, I think, and there's another one too. But all those little Java, Indonesia, it's all kind of the water level is lower. You can walk across it. Australia, I think, still had a water between it.

But dingoes get there. There's no wolves. There's no mammals. on Australia. It's all marsupials, which I guess are mammals, but non-placental mammals, I should say. And then dingoes get there and they're like, holy shit, like kangaroos everywhere. And they can just, they just dominated the landscape. Oh, wow. So my theory would be that that's why the thylacine kind of went extinct. You can see the, obviously like, you know, colonists getting there in, not colonists, you'd say, it's like the British getting there, whatever. There's,

there were literal warrants for shooting Tasmania tigers. But I think the, the dog kind of out-competed them, and their population has dwindled already. So, and the dingoes just kind of did their own thing. That's fascinating. Yeah. I would presume that the dingoes would have some type of, like, disadvantage. Like, if every, not every, but, like, the vast majority of the animals on the Australian continent are marsupials, I would assume that there's a biological adaptation or an advantage for being that way, right? Like, you have to cross, like, mass stretches of land, and the outback is massive, and you've got to have your babies with you.

you got to move quickly. So it's like, all right, you can understand why a kangaroo kind of looks the way it does. But then all of a sudden, you drop like this dingo in there that's used to being in, you know, like Tajikistan or whatever. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, now they're on Australia and they're like, oh, shit, how to, like, I figured that the environment that created all these marsupials would disadvantage, you know, like a canine or, you know, a dog in that way.

Yeah. But for whatever reason, they seem to like they dominate. I'm looking all around because you asked a good question. I'm trying to think of an answer. But I don't know, actually, why the, they're. probably is an advantage to marsupials over placental mammals in Australia. That's a question I'd never really thought of. Right.

But I guess maybe by the time they get there, there's already such a diverse, like, ecosystem that they can just post up in their little area. They don't have to travel as far. Yeah. And they can just chomp on wombats and shit. You know what I mean? Just keep it pushing. Did you know wombat shit cubes?

No. No, I didn't know that either. Yeah. Can we pull up wombat shit immediately? Yeah. Absolutely. That's, there's no way. They're cubed?

Something like that, yeah. And there was a Pleistocet in Wombat, too. So like a giant one in the ice age. Should they just shit like Amazon box size cubes? No. Yeah. Dude. Yeah, look at that.

That shit looks delicious. I know, it's a brownie, dude. The forbidden brownie. Thank God we don't have those here, bro. I would be chewing on that all the time. Are they, dude, they got cubed apples? Can you pull up a wombat ass? That's crazy.

There's no way. Why is that? That is bizarre, bro. Dude, wombatts might have built the pyramids, dude. That's crazy. That is wild. Yo, that shit is kind of cubicle Yo.

I think that's its pouch. No, dude. You think that's a cube? That's his little Wadusi, that's wild. That makes me feel uncomfortable, to be honest with you. I never knew that they poop cubes. My barber told me, shout out. You don't got to zoom in.

It's got a glaze on it. Damn. Yeah. But if you look up Ice Age Australian animals, like they had giant kangaroos. It would have been like a formidable, scary eyes just like the Americas just giant in kangaroos

giant uh you know guanadone whatever the thing is that's what I feel like Australia looks like now yeah in certain parts yeah like that's what I assume it is today to go out there and fucking die yeah like what the hell that might just be a photograph

I don't even think that's a painting that's just a flick I talked about this with Donnie too and I've done this usually does pretty well on stage but you know you think of Australia as this big poisonous place with snake and scorpions and this box jellyfish that can kill you. But like, you've avoided that stuff, you're fine. But, like, to other people around the world, like, in America, we just have bears and wolves

just, like, walking through Jackson, Wyoming. That's a decent point. And it's, like, just remnant ice age predators are just gutting people. Yeah, I grew up in Florida. And like... Okay, so you have Australia at the south. In a way. Like, I, like, I, to this day have a fear of bears.

Okay. Like, as a guy that lives in Brooklyn, New York, I'm, like, genuinely afraid of... Like, not gay, like, just actual bears. Like, just like... Not gay bears. Yeah, like the Florida Black Bear is like, because I was a kid, I would walk out of my backyard. You have a bear's there. Yeah.

Dude, I would walk in my backyard and there would just be a bear once a week. Really? Just posted up. Just going through the trash, just like chilling. And then you'd go out and they would freak out. They'd be like, yeah, and then they'd run. But like, sometimes they would just run up a tree. Are they pretty big?

They're small. Okay. They're pretty small. But you'd go out there and you see a really small one. And then that's when you knew you were, because you would go out there and you'd be like, oh, the bears are pretty small. But you see a really small one and you're like, oh, that's a baby. and the mama's around. Yeah.

And, like, you would hear, like, crazy, like, and then, like, the bears would smack the ground. And then they would run up a tree, and then my mom would be like, yeah, you can't go outside for the next three days. Because, like, we don't know when the bear's going to come down the tree. Like, there's a whole family of bears

in the tree directly outside of my house and we just got to chill. So I'd be, like, go on the lake. Then you go on the lake, and then there's just alligators everywhere. Yeah, dude. And so my childhood was just, like, dodging bears and alligators.

I lived in Georgia for a while in Augusta, and I was up on the Savannah River right there. And I forgot there's like alligators there too. Yeah. And I had my dog who's like born and raised in Wyoming, like in the mountains, where used to moose and bears and stuff. And then he's just playing in the water. And I'm trying to take pictures like for this photo shoot thing.

No. For Instagram. And I'm like, wait a minute. There's fucking alligators here. And I kind of like to like rip him out of look. Yeah, yeah. That happens all the time. Like the amount of times like little dogs like in my neighborhood would just like go missing.

That's often? Oh, one million percent. I mean, it wouldn't be like every day. But it'd be like. Yeah. It wasn't like a crackheader. Like, yeah. No, dude, I think the crocodiles would get the crackheads.

You know what I mean? But, like, you would just be out and someone would be like, yeah, have you seen my dog? And it'd be like a little, you know, teacup poodle. Yeah. And then they would just be gone. And you'd be like, well, probably got a crocodile. You got them. Yeah.

Like, probably an alligator's chomped him. And that happens all the time. I didn't even think about that. Dude, Lake Jessup, like near where I grew up, I think that one lake, because they were using it at one point, like Florida Wildlife, I think. I hope this is not blasphemous. I apologize, Florida Gamma Wildlife. But I think they were.

taking the gators that they would rescue, that they would seize from someone's pool. Okay. Because there would just be gators in someone's pool, like, all the time. That I've seen. And so they would take the gators, and then they would throw them into Lake Jessa. And then as a result,

they would just breed like crazy. And Lake Jessup, I think, has more gators than the population of Florida. Wow. Like, one lake. Like, can you look up how many gators are in Lake Jassab estimate? It's insane. Like, I don't know that.

It's like millions of gators in this one little lake. And people still go boating out there. You just coexist with them, huh? Okay, 12,000. All right, so maybe not the... Someone lied. Someone lied to me as a kid. You know what I mean?

Someone lied to me as a kid. Whatever. You get my point, okay? 12,000 gators in one spot. That's insane. What's up, guys? We're going to take a break really quick because we got merch.

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We got the link in the description. Now, let's get back to the show. But with bears and stuff too, I think, and there's a definite correlation with this with hyenas. Are you familiar with cave hyenas at all? No. Okay. So hienas are, I love history hyenas. So I got rid of the hyenas, too.

Shout out Chris and Yanni. Yeah, shout out. But they, hyenas are just super. formidable animals in Africa right now. They scavenge, they do this stuff. They're cleptoparasites in a sense. They'll take the carcasses of other, you know, they'll still kills of other animals,

usually lions, but lions do the same thing. There would have been giant ones in Ice Age Europe and Asia that had longer legs and they could run faster. Whoa. But you start to see around 15,000 years ago, they disappear in like Siberia area, and that's probably either to do with most animals are dying off with the Ice Age ending,

but humans can, then send in a dog. Like you have a literal drone. You can just whistle, throw it in a cave, and it will flush out those animals for you. So then you can use those like caves that Neanderthals and other people couldn't get to because it was just, cave hyenas are the most frequent thing you find in, like, Ice Age sites in Europe. Because they just brought so much shit into those caves. And there's human hair and like hyena feces sometimes too.

Pretty cool. Sketchy. But you're then, you're using dogs to like flush these animals out. And cave bears as well go extinct at a certain point because. You and your boys post up outside the cave. You got your, you know, whatever that thing was, the atlip or what's it called? Atlattle. The Atlattle or whatever that version is out there.

Yeah. And then you send the dog in there, the bears run out. Yeah. And then you just, something like that. Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. Maybe you go in together and just, you know, whatever you're doing, you spy or smoke it out or something.

That's crazy. There's just uses for dogs back then would have been. It just would have been a game changer. Right. It's like AI back then. Yeah. Literally. It is a drone.

That is fascinating. Yeah. I'm curious, like, and again, this is going to get somewhat culturally sensitive. No, I don't give a shit. But there are, should I say most? I don't even know if you could say most. But a vast majority, a big number of people on the planet don't eat dogs. Yeah.

And there are some people that culture that they do. Which, again, I actually have no moral qualms about it. It's funny to joke about, you know what I mean? Like, oh, Chinese people eat dogs, sure. Yeah. Which is obviously a cultural stereotype, but there also is, like, a precedent for it. Like, they have dog festivals or, like, they eat dogs. And it's just a thing.

You know what I mean? And dogs are animals and I eat animals. So, like, I have no philosophical reason or, like, a logical reason why I shouldn't eat a dog. But yet, there's something about it to me that I'm like, you guys did your time. You know what I mean? Like, dogs helped human beings get here. Yeah. Like, it feels bad to eat them.

They work to not be a kebab. You know what I mean? Like, they put in time for it. Like, cows didn't really do that. Like, you know? Sure. Like, other, like, fish didn't put in the hours. They weren't in the gym shooting.

You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. But dogs were. So as a result, I'm like, maybe we shouldn't eat them. I'm curious if you think that there's any, like, I guess, like, anthropological reason why we have an aversion, specifically in the West, to not eating dogs. That's a good question. We did talk about this in Ologies a little bit, or she interjected with it. Does she frame it as bad as I did?

No, no, I think you did quite a good job. I will say, just for the most part, dogs were eaten most of history all the time. Right. You can see evidence of that. Like probably until like 1980, people are just chowing on dogs most of the time when there's food insecurity. I mean, they call them chows. You were right. Chinese dogs are chow chows.

I didn't think about that. Cut that. I'm scared. But, we're right back. So there's the other thing, too, with, like, meat has a, has an anthropological thing, too. Like, in English, we have beef and then cow. Like, we have a different word for meat. Right.

Chicken is chicken for whatever reason. Poultry versus, like, I guess. like bird or whatever. Yeah, something like that. Like poultry is what you eat, whereas like birds are the animal. Yeah. That's the distinction.

Pork. Yeah. I think it comes from French and like old English, like the different versions of that. But we're more detached from our food. In that sense, you can separate pork from pig and it's, you're not eating a pig. You're eating pork. Right. I don't need a baby cow.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there's like that kind of distinction in our culture where it's like we still have dog as dog. You don't have dog meat doesn't have like a different. word, not that it's like a commodity that people eat all the time. But there's some cultural

thing where we just don't eat dogs. And I think it's because in Europe or Eurasia we had, in early America, we had, you know, plenty of meat and other stuff to eat than dogs. But the cultural things of like in India, they don't eat cows because of Hinduism or whatever. So it just depends on your culture. But for most of history, like dogs are just eaten. And you can see it in like bones. You can see it in like Captain Coketabot. bunch of dog. You can read it in his journals. Oh, really? He would go to Polynesia. There's a whole other fascinating topic, but island to

island, and they kept offering him dogs. If they get to the islands, they'd be like, he's a fucking dog. And he's like, I'm good. Like, I'm not going to eat this. And then you can see in his journals, he finally gives in. He's like, we'll try it. And he wrote that it was a good eating. Because it, like, they would just there's Polynesians brought pigs and chickens to their islands too and rats as well. But dogs, I guess, weren't as meaty. And they wanted to preserve the pigs and the

chickens and stuff. So they would eat dogs as a ceremonial thing. And it was like, usually out of reverence. They didn't hate the dogs by any means. Right. But then Cook eventually was like, you guys got dog? And like, he'd eat something too. Interesting.

Yeah. There's actually a great book. Could you look up the name of this? Because I always mess it up. I'll be honest, the title is not the best. But the book is fascinating. It's called pigs, witches and war. Search that book.

And it's basically an anthropologist that went through all of these, like, cultural reasons why people do things and eat certain things or don't certain things. Yeah, cows, pigs, wars, and witches by Marvin Harris. And basically, I mean, just in short, he basically sort of analyzes like cultural stories, folklore, religious ideologies, and where he believes they actually come from. Okay. So, for example, like Muslims, Jews, some Christian sex, like Ethiopian Christians, don't eat pork.

I didn't know that. Why is that? And if you go to, you know, Muslims, they'll be like, it's in the Quran, go to Jews. They're like, you know, it's in the Torah. Ethiopian Christians would be like, well, we follow, you know, the Judeo-Christian, you know, sort of like purity laws. And so they're like, yeah, we just don't do it because God said so. And then he's like, well, why did God say so?

And then he goes all the way back and he's like, well, some people believe that like the pigs would make you sick. He's like, I actually don't think that's what it was. He was like the pigs were extremely hard to raise. And so even in like agrarian societies, you would have pigs, but they just required so much food that it was actually disadvantageous to raise. pigs at scale. Interesting. So the societies would have, you know, potential famine or, like, collapse by basically how much they were feeding the pigs versus, like, how much meat they actually got.

So anytime they would eat the pigs, it would be, like, a big ceremonial thing, and then they eventually said, no pigs. And then similar with, like, cows, obviously Hinduism is, like, this belief that the cow is, like, the sacred mother, that all things exist within the divinity of the cow and that, like, you know, it gives so much. But then, again, according to Marvin Harris here, in short, he basically says, like, the type of cows that were showing up in like the Indus Valley, like in India at the time, we're actually not that meaty.

And again, they also were difficult to raise. So he kind of goes back to these like cultural ideas and then breaks them down anthropologically. And to me, it's just like fascinating. We're like in America, we sort of have like a shared myth of like, don't eat dogs. Yeah. And it's not religious, but it's borderline. No pun intended, dogmatic. Right.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Then we're like, hey, we don't eat dogs. And everyone's just like, yeah, of course you can't eat them. Then you ask why, and you're like, well, there's no reason, really. But I wonder if it's sort of that shared history of, like, you know, come out of a culture of Western Europe. You have all these domesticated animals. You don't need dogs.

So as a result, you're like, yeah, we don't use them for eating. We use them for hunting and companionship, et cetera. Yeah. And then you create this mythology around it. That's a good point. I would have thought it was disease why they didn't eat pigs. That's what I assumed to was. Yeah.

My boy, Marvin here says that that's not necessarily the case. Great book. I mean, fascinating. I'm sure, based off your work, you'd find it fascinating. Yeah, I'd love to read that. I'm also curious about, like, dog breeds. Yeah. So how do, like, we go from this wolf that then slowly gets domesticated,

but then we get, like, border collies that are able to do one thing, and then we get poodles that are able to, like, go on water, and then you get, like, German shepherds that are obedient? Like, how do you get all these different Pokemon? You know what I mean? Like, we go from, like, one source to then all these sort of disparate things with, like, different talents. Yeah. How does that happen?

I love that used Pokemon. Yeah. I mean, I say this in luxury, too. like evolution's not Pokemon, like things, we have this, you're a millennial too, right? Or something.

Bring on the precipice. Okay, cool. 96. Okay, 92. So we're right there. Evolution, we have this idea that it just happens like overnight

and you have like another creature the next day. It doesn't happen like that. It's like a slow and gradual thing, as Darwin phrased it. But in terms of like breeds, it did take probably 10,000-ish years for dogs to start,

at least in my opinion, from what you can see, archaeologically, then branching out into like distinct looking breeds. But for the longest time, dogs would have just been like a dingo looking thing. There's just that standard yellow coat probably made grayish at some point, but has a wolf-like appearance in terms of skeleton. Right. It's a little more shrunken.

The teeth. The dogs get what's called teeth crowding. You can tell a domestic dog from a wolf because their teeth, they're more scrunched together in their mouth, like proportionally. Interesting. So it's very hard when you find a wolf skull, 10,000. years ago, 20,000 years ago, versus, you know, right when wolves are coming about, it would have been the same skeleton.

And it still is, in a sense. So it's hard to tell. But when you get to, you know, 10,000 years ago, onward into, like, especially 5,000 years, you then start to see more, like, greyhounds are a huge thing. In ancient Rome and Greece, they had greyhounds. They had, Egypt had them as well. The Saluki, as I mentioned before. China has some very old breeds, like the Chow Chow and the Shih Tzu.

and the big wrinkly one, I figure what that's called. That's very old. Sharpay. Sharpay. There you go. Yeah. They're very old. So you start to see it and it's either for status or it's just for, you know, in this area,

they look different just like people do and they start to, those ones start to breed together and become that. Not entirely sure, but probably back in the day it was just for speed and I can feed it less or something like that or it was a good hunting dog. Because you know in the Americas they were hunting with dogs constantly in Europe they were too. But I guess the type of thing you're hunting would also necessitate a different type of dog. Yeah. So I bet you the predator probably also affects the type of traits you're breeding for.

Like the predator you're hunting or the prey? Yeah, yeah, the predator you're hunting or the prey rather. Okay. But like I remember like going like hunting in France. I was out there. We were doing like duck hunting. Okay. And they have like specific duck hunting dogs.

I don't even know what they are. But like you shoot a duck, dog runs out, retrieves it. some type of retriever. Yeah. But then they would be like, oh, but if you're going to go pig hunting, you have to use a different type of dog. And the reason they were explaining to me is that you would get like these little dogs. It was almost like a schnauzery type thing.

Okay. And they would go for the pig balls. And they were literally trained to like, they would run after these pigs and like the pigs would be running around. And these little dogs would run, grab the pig balls and try to make them like, you know, panic, freak out and then you can shoot them easier. That's crazy, right? Yeah.

I mean, it's demented. You know what I mean? Yeah. hunting me like that. But they were like, the smaller dogs are actually better because when the boars will like ram them, they fly,

but they don't get hurt. Oh, and so like a big dog might be a little bit slower, but even if they're fast, a pig could hit them and they would take on more damage. Whereas like these little dogs, who would just like, flam them,

and then they'd be able to run back without as much damage. That makes sense too. But I was like, oh, that's fascinating. So then I wonder if you're selecting for different types of animals over time, like hunting a bison versus like,

I don't know, duck hunting or like, you know, like birds or like hunting, I don't even know what else, you know, bears or whatever else. I imagine different types of dogs would do better jobs. Yeah. Like, like pit bulls, I think were, I mean, they were like literally like bulldogs. Like they were like meant for like hunting bulls or some shit.

Some version of that. Yeah. But it makes a lot of sense, you know. I think so too. And I never thought about that. Like you can take a hit better when you're smaller. That's what I told me. I don't know if that's true.

Some French guy who's ripping a cigarette while he's telling me. I mean, I'd hope he was. Yeah. I don't know if it was the best source. If he's not ripping a cig. Right. You need the little dogs, they're very cute, and they can fly in. They come back.

Other dogs. They're like, br-h-h-h-h-ha-ha-ha. They're like, wow-wa-wa-wow. That's how they sound. But yeah, man, I don't know, because, like, raccoon dogs, I know are, like, hounds are loud. And, like, if you think of, like, the typical, like, British hunt with the royals that would do it, you get really loud dogs that would alert you when they found the prey, they'd chase the prey, put it up a tree. Right.

And those are smaller dogs, too. because you're, that's a raccoon dog. Nice. But yeah, no, no, no, I'll just, cool, that's a little cool thought. Those are related. Yeah, Coonhound. Yeah, and fun fact, I wrote a book on Shiloh as a kid in fourth grade is my book report. And it was a coonhound in the book, but my teacher kept crossing out Coon, I guess, because it sounds racist.

That shit does sound a little racist. Yeah, it definitely does. But then I only learned it was a racist term because my parents were like, why should keep, like, they explained to me why my teacher kept cutting that out. That's so funny. It was a raccoon hound. That's so funny. So my teacher actually taught me the racist term. But in general, yeah, they're loud and they tree the raccoon up the tree.

And I did a podcast with Bear Grease. It was meat eater. Clay Newcomb, he'd be a great guest for you at some point. But he's a raccoon hunter with dogs and stuff. And he was asking all sorts of questions about it. But yeah, they just tree the animal. And that's probably what was happening most of the time is you just like, I know for a bison when you're hunting.

Bison, I haven't seen anyone hunt bison with dogs. It's probably like pretty dangerous for them now. I can imagine. But the way wolves hunt bison is they like just slowly bite and nip at their like legs until it gives out kind of thing. So you need something with a formidable jaw. Right. And all that.

But right now it's probably just steering the animal on a certain way so you can use your project a weapon. Separated from a pack or whatever, like however they're protecting themselves. Yeah, something like that. Interesting. Not sure. But the small dog thing, that's fascinating. I never heard that.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I don't know if it's true, but it sounds interesting. He's hunting. I'm not. I'll take his word for it. Yeah. Did that answer your question?

Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Yeah, I'm just so fascinated by these dog breeds. And then at a certain point, human beings are just like, okay, we don't care what they do. We just want companionship. Yeah. Is that pretty new? Is that like the last like 60 years, 70 years?

I would say like the boom in dog breeds that we like know today is the Victorian era in England. Interesting. Or like in France and stuff too. That's when the kennel club comes about. But you have rich people with leisure time. that have the money to, like, fund a kennel guy to breed these animals to do certain things. And that's when you get, like, poodles.

That's when you get, poodles might be older, actually, but. Yeah, I thought poodles were, I mean, correct with them wrong. I had a poodle grown up. Okay. I know, my last name is French. We had poodles. We ate crapes. I mean, like, I'm pretty bad to culture.

But, uh, poodles, like, they were called that because I think they were good in water. And that the traditional, like, poodle cuts you would see would, like, make them agile. And they wouldn't get their, but. So they wouldn't get their hair tangled up, but they would stay warm in all the essential places because they would jump in the water. Like, they would literally be puddle dogs. And then that became poodle dogs.

That's where poodle comes from. Okay. That's what I was. That I really know. But like if you look at, oh yeah, the name poodle comes from the German word puddle, which means to splash in water.

Oh. And yeah, they splash about. Well, the more you know. So it's not a French dog? Hold on. While the modern image of poodle in France, the breeze,

oh, they're German. Damn it. They got us again. They got all this stuff. Damn it, dude. I'm secretly a journey longer. Take your land, take your dog breeds. Oh, man.

But that is fascinating. Like, yeah, they would, their bread is water retrievers. And, like, can you look up, like, the traditional poodle cut? Because, like, they look very dumb. You'd look at a poodle. Oh, like, the haircut.

Yeah, like, they look absurd. But, like, to my knowledge, the original, like, poodle cuts were in order to, like, keep them warm. And so, like, if you go to, like, the center, middle. Yeah, that one right there. Like, that's like, you go to like a show and like they look absurd.

But like they would try to like keep like their paws warm. They'd keep like their internal organs warm. But like their legs, they would be not able to get tangled up and they wouldn't be weighed down as much in the water. Interesting. What's the thing on its back? I guess just like a. That's so you can ride it. Your kids can ride up.

It's a saddle. It's for a very small Frenchman to ride around. Exactly. Napoleon actually would ride on Poodles into war. Not a lot of people know that. I can look that up. They'd melt that out of the movie. Yeah, but yeah, Victorian era is where you start to see, like, I can't think of the names of the breeds right now, but like the English teacup dogs, those like the fancy little pug like things.

Purse dogs. Yeah, that Paris Hilton stuff. Like that comes out around then. And it's because people, I think, had the time. But I do know in like ancient Rome, people would buy Egyptian greyhounds. And have you been to Rome? Yeah, I have actually. Okay.

Like any statue you see there, it's either Romulus and Remus and the wolf or it's a greyhound. And they had, like, for whatever reason, I think there's Italian greyhound too that they used, but they would import fancy ones from Egypt. And if you were like, we were wealthy, you had a greyhound, which is pretty sick. Interesting. So it was a status symbol then and also probably gambling or just it could hunt and do all that kind of stuff. Yeah. I mean, Remus and Romulus is another great wolf story.

Yeah. That exists in folklore. It's interesting, too. The Mongols, at least I don't know if it's modern Mongol religion, but I know, like whatever Genghis Khan was into. humans and dogs descend from wolves together. So, like, we have a shared heritage as wolves, and he believed his grandfather was a wolf or something for his great-grandfather.

He was probably wrong about that, but he... I don't know. We'll look into it. It worked for him. It got him all the way from wherever he was to, like, Poland. Yeah, I mean, it kind of worked, right? Yeah, he needed a wolf grandfather. But, yeah, Romulus and Remus as well, that was...

They became the founders of Rome. I don't think the first emperors, but, like, they all... Yeah, they were the founding people from, like the wolf mother. Yeah, and the wolf, like, raised them and helped, like, suckled them or whatever. It was cool. Right. Yeah.

But basically to say, like, hey, the Roman people are descendants of wolves. Like, it's effective in the same story. No, exactly. And I noticed this, too, in doing several projects in school when I was looking up dog remains at different archaeological sites, you quite often find dog skulls with, like, boring on the side, so, like, holes. And it was probably for a totem pole or, like, you just had a staff with a wolf skull on it. But then I was thinking about, like, you see Roman centurion.

wearing the wolf pelt thing, Vikings do it. Like the guy's stormed the Capitol had it to. January 6th, he had it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think really it's just like, anytime you put a wolf skull on your head, you just say, hell yeah. Yeah, I mean, truly.

And it seems to be cross-cultural. Whether it was like, you know, there was more spirituality to that, sure. Right. But it just, I think it kind of just stems from hell yet. Yeah, I mean, it really does. Like more than any, like, I don't know, you put an iguan on your head.

People would be like, interesting. You know what I mean? And like, it's cool. It's a lizard guy. Yeah, it's kind of cool, but it's not like, you're not intimidated. Like you wear a jaguar, you wear a wolf, and people are like, oh, yeah, you don't put that guy. Yeah, it's like a warrior type kind of thing. Yeah, because I guess we just see wolves as warriors.

Like something like, I think it's just built into like our human cultural understanding of like how, you know, dogs and humans co-evolve or like, yeah, did you respect wolves? They're warriors. Sure. They're the best of us. And it kind of gets into the, once you get agriculture and you have, you know, sheep and stuff to take. care if that's been like the big bad wolf and like that kind of stuff and like wolf stuff is a problem today for sure uh i know that's a very political topic but like that's a whole other thing you know we got to bring a wolf stuff but it's just kind of interest because it's like

human politics gets so dicey wolves are so you know related to humans in a sense that it also becomes very political but uh once agriculture comes about you start to see wolves are more persecuted Whereas, like, before or in pre-agricultural societies, wolves are much more, like, in the Mongol sense, they're not agrarians. They're pestiless. So, like, animals are their whole life. Wolves are more noble or related to them kind of thing. In, like, medieval England, it's just they're eating your sheep, so you're going to shoot them kind of thing. Right.

It turns into that. And you get the werewolf that comes out of that mythology, I'm sure. Yeah. I think English folklore, too, like, there's a, if you see a wolf or a dog at night that's black and has red eyes, it means, like, you're going to die. Right. Or it comes, it's a black dog folklore, I think is what it's called. But, um, pretty safe bet. Yeah, I mean, there's something like.

Yeah, you see like a dog with red eyes like, yeah, dude. Yeah, I'm cooked. Yeah, you're probably cooked, right? Yeah, something like that. So that comes about too. But I've noticed in like Western tradition, it does seem to be more, uh, yeah, there you go. Dragon of the Dead underworld and supernatural forces. So if you see the dog.

The manifestation of the devil. Whoa. That one I haven't heard. That's pretty cool. Asians of Satan. I didn't know that. Chihuahuas are for sure. Yeah.

But things like that. It just like every culture somehow has a dog mythology to it or like a wolf mythology to it. And I think Odin, when you get to Valhalla, has a dog that sits with them. I don't know what the dog's name is, but Fenrir is the wolf god. I think he's Loki's son or something. His sons eat the sun in the moon every night or something. or at Ragnarok, they'll eat this, something like that. But there's always, like, it has to do with the end of the world, the death, something.

It's interesting. It's interesting that dogs are associated with death, I guess, from, like, the scavenger relationship. Like, if you found something dead, you'd probably find some wolves or some dogs around it. Yeah. And I know in Egypt for sure that, like, jackals do scavenge tombs. It's a problem. They get to, like, shoe them out. Or at least, you know, in the past, maybe now the antiquities, authority is pretty on it.

But back in the day, they would have been fucking around with tombs and stuff like that. What can you tell me about dire wolves? Yeah, that's a whole thing lately. Yeah. Do you want to get into that? I mean, I saw a pop up on the news and it's like, dude, they un-extincted the dire wolf. Yeah. And I started looking into it and I was like, they sort of did.

I don't understand all the exact genetics and what it actually means to de-extinct something. So could you just kind of explain what a dire wolf is, why it made the news, and then what you think is going on? Yeah. It's kind of conspiracy-ish, so we can put the hats on. What do it? But I think Coloss is going after people for calling them out. which means like they're lying about it. But they went on Rogan, talked about it.

The guy seems like a chill guy, man lamb, I think, and then the chief scientist went on too. But, yeah, they're just genetically modified wolves. They, like, took some traits from dire wolves that they thought made them. What is a dire wolf? Yeah, sorry. Well, dire wolf is anosyron dearest, is what it's called.

It used to be Canis dearest. But it's interesting. We looked at direwell skeletons. They looked just like wolves. so we would have thought they're just bigger wolves or some kind of species. But genetic research really goes hand to hand with archaeology, and that's only been about the last 10, 20 years. So now you can do genetic testing on all these things,

and that's why dogs have kind of popped off too, because now you can understand it better. And dire wolves are an actual extinct line of canids that were from bone-crushing dogs, is what they're called. Just giant, like bear-like dogs that existed way back in like a couple million years ago in the Americas. is. And that line kind of just all died out except for the dire wolf, but convergent evolution, they look similar. So what colossal did was just say that they took what those traits would

have looked like and took them from some dire wolf fossils, injected those and activated that into modern gray wolves and just accentuated some traits. And they're just saying like, it's a colossal brand dire wolf is how I would praise it. Interesting. So, because gray wolves are the ones that we, the wolves that we know and love, the ones that are still running around. And those are genetically distinct from the dire wolf that died off and actually went extinct. By several million years. Yeah. So this idea that like, oh, we have like the dire wolf as it was known a million years ago still when like able to be recreated today is a pretty compelling story. I mean, that's like, yeah, it's pretty sick. Yeah. But it seems like, even just from like a couple of articles

I read that that might not be exactly the case. But again, I don't know what necessarily make something, like, you know, it's one of those things. Like if it looks like a dire wolf, sounds like a dire wolf. And that's their phrasing. Then you're basically like, I mean, it's a dire wolf, you know? What's up, people? Let's take a break really quick, because I'm going to talk to the fellas. Let me ask you something.

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Be the man you're supposed to be today, today. Now let's get back to the show. So de-extinction to them, sorry, a minute, interrupt. No, no, not at all. De-extinction and they're the way I think Ben Lamb explained it on Rogan, was that, you know, if it feels, there feels the ecological niche and the behavior of that animal on the landscape and it does it. So putting hair on an Asian elephant and putting it in the tundra, then makes it a mammoth to them. But really, it's just an Asian elephant with hair.

But you could argue is a mammoth just an elephant with hair because they're the same kind of species? Right. I can see where it's kind of like a semantics thing. And if you're like a, you know, like a genetic purist, you're like, no, it has to be this exact genome and this same kind of exact phenotype or whatever other type of technical terminology. And if it's not that, then it's not, you know, a mammoth or it's not a dire wolf. Whereas they would be like, well, if it's doing all the things and it looks the exact same and it hunts the exact same way, then it is. Yeah.

So I can understand where the kind of gray comes from. Yeah, fully good. The gray wolf in it. It's that essentially. And it's a dire wolf, sorry, it's a gray wolf that has what they said look like dire wolves. And they're supposed to act like dire wolves. But dire wolves, to my knowledge, lived more in like the lowlands and hunted larger game in North and South America. I think maybe just North America.

But hunted larger game like bison and things like that. Bison Antiquis was the ancient bison that lived here. Whereas they died out because gray wolves are more adaptable to higher latitudes and climates and they could scavenge kind of like human camps and things like that. Oh, interesting. They can move around a little more. Yeah. So with the change in climate and humans get to the Americas and start fucking everything up.

More adaptable. Yeah, gray wolves survived, dire wolves died out. But Clovis people would have interacted with dire wolves for sure. And I think because of that, and Game of Thrones, obviously, George R. Martin's a huge donor to the company. Oh, is he really? Yeah, and I looked up, like, how we donated. It's through his, like, Native American charity or something. Like, I looked up all the authors in the paper.

It's very interesting. They might come kill me after this. They're sick of die a die from him. They're like, shut. Be like, oh, this isn't a die of a mother? Like, if they want to pay me to come see it, I'll call. I'm all the Dyerwolf all day. But yeah,

they, it's just so interesting because it came out and as a scientist like watching this stuff pan out and I read the paper. I know someone on the paper. I'm like texting about it and stuff.

The new, like ABC News, Fox News, fucking ESPN even came out saying like the same exact phrasing of it's this. So really what it boils down to, I think they want to do more de-extinction stuff like this.

The Dire Wolf is catchy, trendy. You can watch the wolf pups grow up. It's in a brilliant marketing campaign or whatever they're doing. There's also a media thing that happens, I think, where, like, media and science converge. But, like, you'll have, like, a very nuanced paper from, like, a very prestigious, you know, research lab that's, like,

you know, we discovered a potential cure for this bizarre growth that happens in some humans. And then the news will be like, scientists cure cancer. Exactly. And you're like, all right, well, that's not what we said. We said that potentially, like, there's a ton of nuance within the scientific language that goes on in these papers. that then the media just jumps on and runs with a narrative that sounds, you know, catchy and clickable.

So it's difficult to know exactly, like, where the onus lies as someone like me that's just a casual dude that likes, you know, sick-ass dogs. With no pun intended, I have no dog in the fight. But I am kind of like stoked that these guys are making sick animals, you know what I mean? I mean, I, here's the thing. If a mammoth comes out, I will want to see it. I will want to throw something into it. Right? I will want, yeah, they have to stop me.

Yeah. But, like, is it a mammoth or just an Asian elephant with hair? I don't know. But it turns into semantics of species. And Ben Lamb on Rogan did bring this up. And this is a point I argue. Aristotle argued it. Linnaeus argued it.

And, like, all scientists today will argue, we don't know what species is. It's just, like, and this is what they're using as the definition of it, which I agree with. But, like, how much more dog is your dog than a wolf? Or how much more dog is your dog than whatever comes after? Mm-hmm. So how much more human am I than Neanderthal? And you can test that with DNA. And, like, I might have more Neanderthal DNA than someone down the block.

I definitely have a ton. You think so? Dude, look at my eyebrows. Yeah, I mean, solid enough. Yeah. You got the hair, yeah. Dude, look up the Gaico Caveman. Like, that's just the picture of me on the thumbnail of this video.

I thought that was the coolest commercial as a kid. I was like, I want to be that. Yeah. That's just me. You know what I mean? So, oh, shit. Yeah, dude. Right.

Type shit. Get that shirt on. Yeah. Look at the eyebrows. So, like, I definitely have some Neanderthal cooking in there for sure. Hell yeah, and you're French, right? So you got probably quite a bit. They lived in France and stuff like that.

Oh, did they really? Yeah, all over the place. Oh, hell, I did. I mean, all over France, I should say. Yeah, I mean, I definitely got that. That is. Which I've actually read, and by red, I mean, my friend told me one time in a sauna, that different human beings have different brow structures

depending on, like, what they were doing within their immediate sort of, like, ecosystem. So like if you had a brow ridge that came out farther, it was more indicative of like, you were hunting larger game or something like that. And that like sweat would go down the brow better. It would help you see in the sunlight. Like obviously we know like, like, you know, Eastern folks that people that were like walking across like tundra of like snow. Yeah.

Would get like smaller eyes because they were able to deal with the reflection off the snow, stuff like that. I've heard that before. Yeah. And so like the brow structure applies to kind of everyone in a certain ways. This is what my friend said. Yeah. I don't know.

So is a shanggillis? No. That I don't know. I do know that like the leading theory. So all this stuff's kind of just like hypothetical. There's no instruction book to humans unless you believe the Torah. There's like, there's like the Quran. But your eyebrows.

You're Jewish. She can say that. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think there's a section. Leviticus four says about the browages. But yeah, the eyebrows and like the way it blocks your son and the sweat, that is like a leading theory on it. whether that's regionally varied if you're Korean versus French, I don't know.

Right. There is a staunch difference between Korean eyes and, you know, Caucasian eyes, I guess, but was that for snow? And I also saw, like, the pagodas are, like, wider, whereas, like, the Parthenon has, like, taller, you know, pillar like things. And then, like, in Asian society, they wear, like, the horizontal lined shirt where we have, like, neckties. And I saw someone try to convince that I was, like, dude with their eyes.

And I don't know about that, dude. You're getting into some dicey topics. Bro, that's so funny, dude. Pull up a pagoda, real. And I was all hyped about it, too, and I, like, towed my TA in college, and I was like, dude, check this out. And he was just like, that. That's so funny. But, yeah, see, it's horizontal.

Dude, that's hilarious. You're like, yeah, dude, these dudes were in, we're in letterbox. But in reality. Dude, they were on, they were on widescreen. They were cinema version, you know what I mean? That's really funny. That's so wild. But whether that has to do with just people in that area of the world.

that have that eye fold on their eye are banging each other more than banging people without it. That's just gonna exacerbate. I don't think that it influences how you build structures. Yeah, probably not. But it's the funniest thing I've ever heard.

Egyptians would have had like triangular eyes, I guess. Maybe they did. They'd pull up Agnotton. We gotta see his eye. Pull up a mummy. Yeah. Akkadotin just got delta eyes.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, oh. Some Pinterest shit. I mean, kind of dude. The mummy, I mean, that one's kind of triangular.

You know what I mean? That's so funny. Yeah. Oh, shit. We're on. Dude, that's kind of triangle, bro. That's more triangle than not. Even the thing on the bottom.

That's what I'm saying. All added up. That's more triangle. The eye on the back of the dollar, the Illuminati thing. That's the triangle. For real. All seeing eye. Triangular.

They're just Egyptian. We just discovered some shit today. Oh, my gosh. These are the most scientifically backed racial jokes I've ever heard my life. I mean, this is. I don't even think anyone can come for us. Anthropology is a degree in scientific racism, essentially. Yeah, I mean, so it's been said.

Or at least the BuzzSpeed articles say something. Yeah, exactly. Oh, that's so funny. Okay, can I ask you a few things that my dogs do? Yeah, absolutely. And that I'm sure many people that listen that their dogs do. And like, you know, I think people know, I always think about human beings and be like, okay, we're kind of animals, right? Like we're the most not animal of the animals, but we're very still much animal.

You know what I mean? We like doing animal stuff. I would say my degree is in studying human zoologically. Right. Which to me is, I think, a really productive way to understanding what it actually means to be human. You know, we have this, like, higher consciousness where we're able to, like, philosophize and think of things and have, like, future events and form memories and all this sort of, like, stuff that sort of makes us distinct as human beings. But we are still very much animal. And I think a lot of people neglect the animalism within them.

And I think that's probably, like, an enlightenment idea of, like, hey, reject everything animalistic. And as a result, you got some of like repressed behaviors and then also sort of behaviors that I think exist maybe outside of the foray of what it means to be human. So, for example, like a lot of the Kuberman's work, I think goes very much into like the anthropological sense of what actually means to be human. Like, hey, go outside. Yeah. Be around the sun. Staring for a few hours. Yeah.

Like work out. Like move your body. Like all of these things we would have just done instinctively, you know, up to like, you know. you know, 300, 500 years ago that we don't really do today. And as a result, people are depressed and have all sorts of different mental health issues. So I like to think about human beings as animals and be like, okay, are my base animal needs being met on a regular basis? And if I'm ever in like a bad spot, well, I'm having a, what do you call it, a torpen?

Where you're just in a cap set. Well, you're in torpor? Yeah. If you're in torpor, like, hey, deal with the human stuff first. And like, even when it comes, like, raising my baby, I, like, very much went through, like, anthropology and, like, how did people raise babies for millions of years? And I try to do that stuff as much as possible. Like, what do people eat?

Like, yeah, don't eat cereal and bread all day. Yeah. That's like a pretty non-human way to behave. Very new. It's pretty, like, I mean, people will be like, no, we've had bread for 8,000 years. It's like, yeah, dude, we've been homo sapiens for at least 100,000. You know what I mean? So, like, we're in, you know, the most recent 8% of time that we've been eating this stuff.

So all that to say, I'm just always fascinated about, like, stuff humans do. And you're like, oh, there's a reason for it anthropologically. Dogs are no different. And, you know, maybe even more so, because they're, are more animal than us. So people see their dogs, and right before they go to sleep, they go in a big circle. And they'll kind of like walk around and like kind of... Oh, the dogs, like me at a kumbaya.

You mean the dogs walking in a circle. Like they'll walk in a circle before they lay down. Yeah. And I think a lot of people look at that and they're like, what is that about? Can you explain that? That one, I just learned the past two years, or in the past two years, but apparently dogs like to, when they poop too, they'll kind of walk in a circle. They like to turn and face magnetic north or something like that.

Whoa. And for whatever reason, they do it. And, like, there was a study that, yeah, they do somehow, are kind of like pigeons are able to determine magnetic north and south. I don't know why they poop in that, or like circle and poop that way or do that when they're sleeping. It's for magnetic north? Apparently. It might be magnetic east or south or something like that, but it's a magnetic direction.

I thought it was for just flattening grass. That's the theory I heard. It was like, yeah, you know, you circle around flattened grass and stuff. the magnetic version sounds way sicker to me. Yeah, I don't know why they do it. I do know when they do the paw thing on the ground, that's, I thought they were trying, because my dog's like, retarded when he was, sorry,

can we say that on here? You're extra required one time. Okay, cool, one per thing. He, like, will kick the dirt and where he would miss and not get this shit, like behind it. But really what they're doing is rubbing their scent on the ground. Oh. To mark their poop kind of has more of a scent than that to me,

but for whatever reason they do that. Interesting. And all these little like wolf quirks are still in dogs, which is like really funny. Right. Yeah. What are the quirks do you find that like an average person's dog has that's very wolf-like? I mean, just we're in Williamsburg. There's tons of, I used to live in Park Slope.

So I've seen quite a bit of it. But the rescue dog fad, like it's kind of thing. Like you just have a lot of dogs have, this is something that not a tinfoil had it. But like people just don't like to talk about it because it's unpolite to say like some dogs just have inherent aggression issues, I think. But I think we'd all be a better place if we just accepted that some dogs just bite. Some dogs, that's what they're bread to do. And, like, my dog was very, uh, he kind of went crazy towards the answer.

So I had to put him down. But, like, he would be, he's very mouthy. And, like, he explores the world that way. Your kid probably explores the world his mouth quite a bit. Um, I'm not going to make a Jeffrey Epstein joke, but, um, kids on the island, I'm, but it's a very, like, that's just how they interact. That's like their utensil or their prehensile tail and hands. They use their mouth.

So some dogs are just going to do that more and you can't just, because there's the whole fat of like you can't say no to your dog or whatever, that kind of parenting style. You sometimes have to say no to your, you can't bite a child. Like you can't do this stuff. So I think a lot of people try to say, and I've seen this so much, some of the craziest people on internet are dog people. Yeah.

And like force free people or all these different trainers. And like that has merit. It's like I think that's a good way to do it. There's other kinds of training. Two, I think shocking your dog when they do something bad is probably not the best way to go about it. If you don't know what you're doing. Yeah. But all that to say, some dogs bite because they're wolves.

It's just they're genetically 99.99% of wolves. And they might not be trying to tear something apart. But the way they interface with the world is through nipping at stuff. Yeah. And if there's your hand, a little kid's hand, whatever, they might nip at it. And you'll break skin, you'll hurt the kid, you'll scare the kid potentially. If it's on their face, you could disfigure them in some, you know, moderate to severe way. And they might not be trying to murder that thing.

Obviously, in some cases, dogs are trying to kill. But oftentimes they're just trying to understand the world and they do it with their mouths. And that results in people getting bit. Yeah. And they'll vocalize too and growl, like, don't come near me. That's like just dogs being the wolf social traits that's still there. So, like, just work around it. And like, you know, if your dog's going to be like that.

don't bring them around kids. Like I can't train my dog to be better around kids. I just like would just, I knew he grow out of the kids. He was scared of them because they're unpredictable behavior. Right. Just, you know,

best to not bring them around it. So that's a, that's more of a deep one, I guess. But in terms of other. I think that's just a good point in general. I got a friend down in Florida that's an alligator trainer. Mm-hmm.

And he trains gators. And he like, we'll rescue them and then like if they're- Gator boy Chris? Gator boy Chris. You know him? Yeah, absolutely. We're buds.

No way. Yeah, well, and then like Instagram, but... Yeah, we went down to South Florida, and we, like, swam with his gator. I forget the name of his, it was beautiful, beautiful baby girl. But he was like, yeah, if you, when you get in the water with the gator, this gator is not aggressive, it was raised in captivity.

It won't try to kill you. It's well fed. She's doing great. I'll still get a pass. But if you, he's like, watch this, and like, the gator will have its mouth open and he'll just, like, smack the water, and the mouth will just shut.

And he's like, the gator's not making a, a cognitive decision to be like, I'm going to eat that thing. He's like, it's just in their brain, like, in the way that, like, you bang on someone's knee and their leg goes forward. Oh, my reflex. Like, you big punch on them and they'll flinch. Like, it's just a reflex that's built into gators. Like, something hits the water, their mouth shuts.

So he's like, yeah, just don't be around the gator and do any erratic movements because it might just do gator stuff, which means their mouth shuts. And that's just encoded in their DNA over millions of years. And it's just what it is. And I kind of view dogs in the similar way where like, yeah, I think there's dogs that are like so nice and you can play with them. And like they have never shown any version of aggression at all. But probably with any dog, you could put them in a situation where they're a high stress environment and they're anxious. And maybe there's some type of pattern of, you know, sort of like, I don't know, like ownership that's not perfect where like they may be like instill bad behaviors or reinforce negative traits.

And that dog could nip at someone. even the nicest dog in the world could have a bad moment. And I just keep that in mind anytime my little baby's near a dog, I'm like, all right, even if you tell me that's the nicest dog in the world,

I'll probably just keep my kid away. You know what I mean? Because I just recognize that this is an animal, you know? And like, I don't know, human beings are the same way. It's like, like, if a little kid scares you

and grabs your ankle, like, you might flick your leg and kick them. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Like, it's just a reflex. Like if you're out. The awesome power scene.

Yeah, exactly. Like, you just might, like, have a startle and they do something. And like we don't say like, oh, human beings are just going to be inherently violent. It's like, no, you just have a animalistic reflex that does something and dogs have a little bit more of the animalism in them. So therefore they sometimes need. Yeah, because they're legitimately animals. Yeah.

No, I mean, I think that's right on the money because there's some, some dogs are just, at this where it starts to bug me. Some dogs are very like, you breed a German Shepherd to be obedient. You breed a dachshund is meant to like go into burrows to get badgers out of it and stuff. Or you breed a lab to be a family-friendly dog. Right. You have other dog breeds that were bred to fight. German Shepherds, for example, too, are bred to protect and their police dogs and stuff. They're going to do that.

So you can't just say, like, well, no, that's not going to happen. Dude, I had a friend that worked for the U.S. Marshall, and they would go bust dog fighting rings, like, in the U.S. and would go to, like, different spots where they were fighting dogs and they were breeding dogs to fight them, and they've been breeding these dogs for, like, 60 years. and in 60 years you can get a few generations of dogs in there you know what I mean?

Yeah yeah And as a result like they would go rescue these dogs from these dogfighters these dogs are proper victims like they are being like Michael victims Yeah Michael victims

Yeah Come on give me some of that They are They are You stand up sometimes They are Seam on the road You'd be in Nashville

I mean you do you have Dates coming up I mean in Nashville at least right I wish I did But yeah See me at the Third Coast And Zanies I guess A lot of dog humor.

Yeah. Love that. But yeah, like they would rescue these dogs and they would be like, yeah, we can't rehouse them. Because not only were these dogs raised in a violent high stress environment where they're bred to fight, but it's possible like epigenetically that their offspring will also be prone to aggression because they're literally from a family generationally. Yeah.

Just born to kill. Right. And it's like, yeah, like, if you're going to reactively. how's these dogs, you need to do it very specifically. With someone who knows what they're doing. Like you can't just put them at the ASPCA and be like, yeah, you know, great, great with kids. Because I've seen some massacres at Prospect Park. Like, or not massacre.

It wasn't bloody, but just like. Oh, it gets crazy. You're not controlling your dog because it's a fad to just get a, you know, a dog from the pound. There's a reason it's there. And this isn't anything to denigrate, you know, rescuing dogs. I think it's a great thing to do. And I would say probably the vast majority are generally fine. Yeah.

But there is a chance you're dealing with. the dog that could have either a prior history in its life where it was abused and then has aggressive behavior. Yeah. Or it comes from a lineage of fighting dogs that kill. Exactly. It could happen. And to your point, too, a phrase I always try to say to is it's the breeder, not the breed.

Yeah. So, like, you can have amazing German shepherds. I've met many pit bulls who are amazing. Two of the dogs that have been pit bulls, I had to be, or happened to be pit bulls, I should say. It's not because of the breed by any means. It's just they're from a line that is bred for that or that's just in them. Right. And if they're not raised really carefully, they can have that tendency. And then they also have the strength. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like there's a lot of like little yippy dogs that might bite, but like they don't do any damage. You know what I mean? Whereas like... Well, misbehaved dogs with the little ones. Always, right? Because you don't really need to. You know? Whereas like if a Doberman wants to get at you, they'll fuck you up. You got to be careful. Yeah. They also just look scary. Dobermans are huge, dude. I mean, of the dogs, like, they might not be the biggest, that whatever, but like, you just look at Doberman, you're like, that motherfucker will kill you.

I'm not entirely sure what they were bred for, but I imagine some kind of- Just being scary. Yeah, they just look intimidating. Don't they look intimidated? Like, they're just like, bat ears. I mean, that thing will fuck you up. Yeah. I don't know.

Like, I love, like, Burmese mountain dogs. Those are big, too. They're massive. Yeah. They might be more dangerous. I don't know. They might be, like, if both of them wanted to kill you, I don't know which one would kill you first. but if I had, if I had put money on it,

I'd be like, dude, that Doberman will body you. Yeah, oh, those guys, yeah. And then there's the Mongolian, like, wolf protecting dogs, too. They were in the Mongol army. What? But then, yeah, they're pretty sick. Well, Mongolian, yeah, they, like,

are bred to, like, protect the reindeer from wolves, and they just fuck up wolves on the regular. No way. It's like their Tuesday routine. I mean, shout out to them. Yeah, dude. And they're huge, looks like a lion. What an insane life

And they probably love it too And super love it Right? Like I remember seeing like huskies Like mushing You know mushing people around Oh yeah yeah I was out in Idaho and I would see them mushen And I remember talking to dude

And I'm like I feel bad a little Like seeing these huskies like running around Like pulling people all day And he was like I'll be honest dude If they weren't mushing They'd be criminals

He's like dude these huskies love They love to run They love to get their energy out Like they're aggressive like they just like to they like to go so he's like if they were just out in the wild they'd probably just be running around that was his rationalization the huskies the huskies yeah he's like too love running around in the cold he's like they're just built for that they're bred for it and if you just had a husky like you can't have them in your apartment because they just go crazy yeah and they're allowed too yeah if you don't run them they're like they just how yeah oh that's that's one why do uh oh yeah the questions why do dogs how whenever they hear like a sign That, I think, easily can be chalked up to, like, wolves. If you hear a wolf pack howling, they'll, like, respond to the other wolf pack or whatever.

Are they talking shit? They might be, they're just, like, saying slurs really. Yeah, or, like, are they just, like, trying to be like, yo, I'm over here? I think with wolves, it's like, you're just signaling your territory. If they're in the same pack, I know they, like, howl to just keep in touch. It's like a walkie-talkie. Like, I'm over here kind of thing. Wolf territories are fascinating.

Can you pull up the map, a map of wolf territories? There's one that I saw specifically on Instagram, like a few days ago. It's crazy how delineated they are. So, like, I, so this was a GPS map of a bunch of different wolves that were tracked by research or somewhere. It's the top left. And I don't even know where this is. But they basically, it's like tag a bunch of wolves and they're like, all right, let's see what they're up to. And so the NSA is just putting our tax dollars to use just being like, yeah, we've got to spawned these muffins.

And basically, they stay on their block. Like, they don't around. The line between the green and the purple and the yellows just piss. Exactly. But literally, they just, like, the red wolves just track with the red boys. And then the purple wolves just stay up there. The yellow wolves, they just chill in the middle. And they don't go into each other's territory.

They're like, yeah, we know where the lines are. Yeah. And I wonder if that, I mean, that probably has a lot to do with scent. But then I'm sure howling probably plays some role as well. Yeah. I know, like, barking has regional accents and stuff like that. So I imagine howling does too. but you can tell different howls from other howls or whatever.

And I know they're using AI right now to, like, decode both howls in Yellowstone to, like, analyze their language or whatever. It might not be Yellowstone, but somewhere up in a big park like that. But, like, using AI to decode how, or, you know, maybe decode's not the right word, but you analyze the howl, and they can kind of determine, like, this howl means, like, I'm here, this one means get the fuck away. No way. Yeah.

AI is pretty wild like that. Well, I've heard that they're using AI to figure out that birds baby talk. Really? No, I haven't heard that one. Can you search birds, baby talking AI? I hope this is real. It's just a video of a bird being like, I love you. You're so cute.

No, it's like they, apparently they will, like, mother birds will, like, chirp in a distinct way to their young. That is reminiscent, they call it, like, baby talking. But, like, the way, like, an adult human would talk to a baby, like, they immediately, like, raise their intonation. Like, they'll use, like, smaller words. And apparently birds do the same thing. Huh. Don't take out the AI part, actually. But apparently it's like a behavior that birds do that they didn't realize

until they were tracking it, like using like basically like AI pattern recognition, being like, oh yeah, every time they talk to each other, it's this type of intonation. Then when they talk to their young, it's a different intonation. Interesting. I don't know why or what that is, but it is fascinating. It's not going to be a video. It'll be an article. But, uh...

Check on that out blur. Word's laying there. from science.org, I mean, they're not going to lie to us, right? Yeah, maybe not. Yeah, adult male birds use a version of baby talk to teach chicks songs. That's not the cutest shit you've ever heard in your life. That is pretty cute, dude. Right.

I know humans baby talk dogs for the same reason. It's just like, or I mean not the same reason, but it's like the thing in your brain, like when you see your kid, that same response is when you see a little puppy. Like that protecting, and the otony is the word. But like, you baby talk dogs. And it's an anthropologist called it mother ease, the way you talk to it, like, who you, you, go, you, like that kind of thing. Like, I do that involuntarily. Right.

No, I do that. I do it to my short friends. You know what I mean? I do it, I do it all the time. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of bad. Like, hey, do the baby? Is Akha short?

Yeah. I do it to all. I do it to everyone. I do it to little babies. I do it to dogs. I have another question. I don't know if you can answer this. Yeah, sure.

Zoomies. You ever be chilling with your dog and then just out of nowhere, you just starts going buck wild, running around. Just zir-o-e-o-eel. Yeah. What is that about? Any idea? My, no scientific idea on that one, just, I think dogs just get happy and excited. Like, all animals seem to.

I know chimpanzees can experience, like, awe, that they'll see a waterfall and, like, freak the fuck out and, like, splash the water and, like, dance and stuff. Yeah, when you see a waterfall. Yeah, for real. Like, you ever see something so awesome? You're like, dude, it's fucking crazy. And it's like, sometimes the hair stands up on me, like, your skinner, whatever. If you see a cool scene in the movie, the end of the Rings show. but like chimps somehow feel that same

I guess awe is the word but they do that but I think in the same sense we can boil that down if chimps are doing that my scientific opinion that's fact would be that dogs can experience joy and happiness and they're just trying to get it out in that sense because you can see

I've never I should caveat all of this where it's the camera I've never like hung out with wolves in the ice age but like I'd imagine like you like when I'm watching videos of wolves at a wolf sanctuary or like in Yellowstone, they do have these like quirks and little

behaviors and they all have personalities and stuff like that. Right. Where they're playing and they, you know, they're happy, they're angry, kind of stuff like that. Interesting. Yeah. I might be putting too much person on them, but... Another political question. Yeah. You think Kibble? Kamala. Yeah. Not Kamala. Kibble.

You think kibble is a... should I say, inhumane? I just talked about my aunt's event. I was just with her yesterday. But I was talking about this with her. Basically, like, as a vet, a lot of people think vets are trying to just make money off of you and give you the highest grade stuff. But she was like, I know farmer's dog is expensive. I know this stuff, but it is healthier for dogs to not eat kibble.

And she hates telling, like, her clients, like, you have to pay for this prescription dog food. But, like, you're just condensing slop down into baked kibble form. That's just not what they're supposed to be eating. And not that she's an advocate for a raw diet or anything like that. But it's just, like, you wouldn't want to eat the same. same bland food every day and your dog can experience depression, uh, bloating, gluten for the same thing. Right.

Yeah. And I do know there's, I don't know what the gene is, but there is a type of gene that dogs have developed. It essentially makes them trash compactors. They can like eat whatever humans eat and it doesn't hurt them like another animal. Like obviously garlic and grapes are still poisons to dogs and like a, I think, diarrhea sense. Mm-hmm.

But like, they can kind of eat anything. And dogs, a lot of times, eat human shit. So anything that humans are, and you can look at that archaeologically, too, with looking at their isotopes. You can see what dogs are eating and by proxy what people are eating in the past. But it seems they'll eat anything, but to eat the same kibble baked down and condensed into this bland shit every day, especially a dog that was here in the city. Actually, we're supposed to be in the woods. Yeah, we're in the woods. Yeah, we're in the middle of central part.

Like a dog that doesn't get out much, that doesn't have much of a stimulation kind of life, eating the same food. every day would make you depressed. Exactly. And my aunt kind of phrased it that way. That's a good point. My wife feeds our cat like raw sardines every night. Okay. And I remember when I first, like, when we first moved in together, she had this cat and

starts, it's not my, I'm like a stepdad to the cat. Sure. But we're cool. Like, we're not, it's not like tense or anything. But she'll feed the cat like Ross Ardine's and like, what is that? She's like, well, I just think it's wrong to feed them this baked little crunchy thing. You know, she's like, think about how animals evolved for millions of years, like they go out eat and they hunch it. And if you want them to be happy and prosperous, like, feed them stuff

they've been eating forever. She's like, do you like to eat bread all day? I'm like, no, I feel terrible if I'm only eating bread all day. I'm like legit and get depressed. I think it's the bagel I had earlier. That's what I had earlier. That's what I did. Imagine you only ate bagels forever, you'd feel terrible. Oh, dude, it'd be much more Jewish. Yeah. But it's true, dude, that's what All my Jewish friends with, like, you know, sinus issues and they have allergies. I'm like, dude, it's all the vehicles. It's just, yeah. It's inflammation.

Pure gluten. You're eating. But I'm like, it makes sense, right? Like, I think we should probably be eating more of what we've been eating for the majority of time that we've been on the planet. And I feel like other animals for the same way. Yeah. You know? Again, I'm not someone out here being like, yeah, buy, you know, $150 dog food.

Right. Like maybe throwing like a, you know, some chicken nuggets every now and again. Something. Something with meat that's not just kibble. Yeah. I would agree. Yeah. It's just a thing I never really thought about

when my wife brought up and I was like, oh, that's fascinating. Yeah. Yeah, makes sense to me. My cat ate tuna a lot. I never tried sardines, but. It is funny because the first time we gave the cat sardines,

they're like human-grade sardines. She just buys them from whole foods. Like the King Oscar brand or whatever? Yeah, just like a can. Yeah. And she was like, do you want to try it? I was like, that's cat food. She's like, no, it's not.

It's human. I just give it to the cat. Yeah. And I was like, all right, fine, I'll try it. So, like, I got a fork and, like, fed the cat her sardine. And then I got a different fork for me. And she's like, why did you switch the forks?

And I was like, because that's the cat's for. Yeah. I don't know. It just got so in my head. I was like, no, this is the cat's fork. That's the cat sardine. This is the human sardine. And they're different.

Yeah. And I think that's just my human ego being like, dude, you can't eat what cats eat. I'm the same way. Like, I'll wash my hands between feeding the dog and feeding me. But it really, it's all the same. Same move. Same food. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Have you tried sardines yourself? Like out of the can, they're fine. You go to a nice Italian restaurant. And try them there. They cut you up a little salad, throw some dinies in there. You're kind of having it.

You're feasting them. Nice. I used them when I was like doing field work. It's actually pretty good when you're really hungry. Dude, a little canned mackerel. That's where they get. The mackerel. The mackerel actually slaps.

Yeah. And they come in a can. Like, I could prep. I could live out there. Um, okay, why do dogs sniff each other's butts? Yeah. So there's like, I don't know who explains this to me or if I came with it myself, but there's a,

I think, Someone explains me. But the way wolves or dogs see the world, like it's through their nose or whatever. Do we get the mirror test stuff in it? It's called mirror? Or I can go back to the mirror test and talk about it if we didn't do that. Yeah, let's just take it from the mirror test. It's mirror?

Yeah, like looking in a mirror. Oh, right. Yeah, so the mirror test is essentially, it's a test of sentience in an animal. So a, like, primates can see it, their orangutan can see it, and it's like they'll put the red marker on its face. and it can see that in the mirror, and it knows like, oh, if this is me in the mirror.

Elephants can do it, magpies can do it, dolphins can do it. But for a while, they weren't sure if dogs or cats could do it. Because when they look in a mirror, they don't see it. Sometimes they get aggressive.

They do cats. We'll, like, do that little Halloween cat thing. Yeah. For whatever reason, no one thought, like, they used smell to see their world.

So they did that, and you can, a dog can test it, or understand it's on scent, and not that it's like, I think, Therefore, I am in the, it can pass the ACT, but it can, you know, it understands this is me versus a different dog. Right.

And it can't exactly see itself in the mirror. My dog never cared. Mm-hmm. But it can smell itself in the smelling mirror, so to speak. So to answer your butt hole question, um, dogs, when they see a person, like, if you think of how hot and smell of your armpits are and your crotch is, not why dogs love crotches too. Yeah, it's just, yeah, it's gross. Uh, shout out, you know, squatch or whatever you're, squash or black. But they, basically there's like a cloud, kind of like those wolf heat maps you were just looking at, like a cloud of gas hanging out here that they either can see or they just sense it and they want to go right for that.

So when you see another dog sniff another dog's asshole or like a human's crotch or something, there's probably like a cloud of like a video game scent trail. Right. Chilling right there. And it's just saying like come sniff me. Right. So dogs do that. And I was just walking here today and I saw like a cat or sorry, I saw a dog sniff another dog's like. wiener or whatever you want to call it hog and it does same thing it just in its

wagging its tail so it's not necessarily butthole it's just like scent area yeah i think because butthole is the most readily available you don't have to like dip your nose down to that's where that's where your sort of like smell signature is yeah but they would settle for like a dog weiner they'd be like that would basically give them what they needed yeah i saw it today like it's the urine scent and the the shit scent also marks you know it's a unique identifying trait to different dogs. Right. So they,

they're like QR code, I guess or something. Yeah. Yeah, something like that. Also, like seeing a dog track a scent is one of the most fascinating things in the world.

Could you pull up like dog scent cone? So I'm sure you know this, but I just saw it for the first time because I like, I don't know, grown up, I never had dogs that played fetch, but now my sister has a dog that loves playing fetch. And this dog is so good at finding this ball.

It's fascinating. But literally it's like, it'll be the scent cone. So like, could you go to like the bottom left or like the middle left, that one right there? Oh, no, on the left side. Yeah, that one.

Like, literally, we'll throw the ball in the yard and the tiny little tennis ball lost in the grass. And this little dumb dog will just track back and forth in like a cone, basically, just going from where they started, going like, churn, churn, churn, chum, chimp, chimp, like all the way up and we'll find the ball every single time. And basically to the idea that they are creating a map of the world

through like this conical scent shape that they interface with everything with, and they're able to track stuff down in a remarkable way. We even had a, we had like a canine trainer coming to my school when I was a kid and did this thing where he threw a quarter in the middle of the football field. And the German Shepherd found the quarter so far away amongst a bunch of other stuff that he just threw out there. It was able to find this specific quarter to be like, hey, sniff this, throw it,

wait like a five-minute presentation, and it was like, get, and then found the quarter immediately. I was like, that is just so fascinating. But literally was using that same conical tracking shape to find it. I had no idea. It was a cone structure. That's my dad told me that. And like normally your dad tells me some shit and you're like, hey, come on. Yeah.

But he's like, no, it's a cone. I looked it up and like you can see like, you can look at the way they're tracking. It's literally a cone. It's fascinating. Huh. Okay. I have a couple other ones. Yeah.

Dogs eating grass. You know what dad's about? From the veterinary standpoint, I can't say professionally, but, um, I'll go camera. But the, uh, in terms of like, I think it starts, it stops their, um, like they have an acidic problem in their stomach or they have an upset stomach. They know chewing grass for whatever reason or eating grass like fills their stomach up quicker or something like that. Pacifies their, like the acidic stomach pain. Whether it's like a pepto like effect or if it's like a, it just, they want to eat something that makes their stop, you know, feeling sick. I'm not sure, but I do know it has something to do with that because it's when their stomach starts to feel bad.

They'll eat grass. Well, on that same topic, you mentioned this briefly before. Dogs, as we know, through domestication come as like scavengers. Yeah. They're eating kind of random stuff out in the woods. But for some reason, there's certain things that they just can't eat. And chocolate, I'll give them a pass. You know what I mean, chocolate probably didn't exist in the way we have it now.

Maybe the Central Americans were making a brew out of it, you know, they had some type of chocolate drink. Sure. Did a bunch, yeah. But I'm like, dogs couldn't eat that. Like, they were, you know, they were chilling with them way back when. Grapes, garlic? I'm like, why is there just all of a sudden just like some stop if these things are like the ultimate scavengers that can just cohabitate with humans, eat all of our scraps forever except two random things? Yeah, it's like chocolate grapes, garlic onions, I think they can't have.

It just seems strange to me. I'm like, why is that where you guys, you'll eat shit, you'll eat actual human shit? Yeah. But then you offer them a delicious grape, Napa Valley. And they're like, I can't eat that. What am I, my dog? I'm in white grapes. Yeah, it's crazy.

I don't know. That's a good question. I think there's just some things they can't digest like any other creature. Like we can't have, I guess, cyanide or something. Or that's more of an extreme. But, like, I don't think some humans, you can't, like, directly eat poison ivy. It's poisonous to us. Right.

Some people that's, you must have tried. Yeah, I guess. Other things like that, it might be other people, you know, peanuts or some people are allergic or whatever. It's probably the plant's response to, you know, some kind of animal eating it is probably what. So maybe they're getting eaten so much, the grapes were like, yo, back up. Yeah, I don't know why it would just affect dogs. That's a good question. That's fascinating, yeah.

Oh, gifting dead animals? Cats mostly do that, but apparently some dogs do. That's what fetch comes from, I think. No way. I think it's a dog going out to retrieve something and bring it back. Yeah, that makes so much sense, actually. Even now that I'm saying, I'm like, yeah, duh. It's like literally retrievers.

It hit me one day, too, with the same thing. I was like, oh, yeah, that's what that is. and I looked it up and it does seem to have some scientific basis. Yeah, that makes so much sense. Okay. Yeah.

I wonder what other ones we got in here. Let's see. Hmm. Oh, I mean, there's just like little things I kind of know, like belly rubbing.

It's just like a sign of like passivity or kind of like submission. Yeah, that's a wolf thing for sure. They'll lay on their back and in a submissive sense. Mm-hmm. And I think that's pretty cross-culturally wolves or cross-world.

It's not just like certain groups of them. You lay on your back, I guess, showing your, you know, your vulnerable parts It means you're submissive, things like that. But I don't know if that's like a, like specifically why like a belly rub makes them heavy. But I think just like any animal, like when you pet it, I've seen someone pet a squirrel like a wild one.

And it was stoked on it. Yeah. Yeah. I know these are dog psychology questions, which are a little bit out of your purview. Totally fine. I do find them very fun. One thing that I've asked people that I always get mixed for answers on, showing teeth. Mm-hmm.

So some people would be like, oh, yeah, it's a sign of aggression. You know what I mean? Like you show your teeth, you growl, you show your big fangs, you show them, hey, don't fuck them. You know what I mean? It's like, you pull up your shirt, be like, yeah, I'm strapped. Yeah. But then other people are like, oh, no, no, that's a sign of submission. And that dogs will show their teeth to be like, yo, like, you got.

Yeah. So, like, what is it? In humans, it's cultural. I know chimps show their teeth. I think most chimp tribes will show their teeth as a sign of submission. But guerrillas also show their teeth to be aggressive. I think it just depends on the, like, how the lip is folded or something like. that but like if you look at like when Americans take pictures and all around the

world on vacation they smile the slavs and like Russian people just yeah just squatting it's just yeah it's the cigars in their mouth but they don't they don't do much with that like at least you know there's probably Russians that do smile never seen it yeah but never heard of it in terms of dogs I'm not entirely sure I've seen some dogs smile like an Australian Shepherd I've seen smile and like show its teeth in like a happy way. Right. It's tail when my friend would come home, it would be all stiked.

But other dogs showing their teeth is definitely like a please back off kind of thing. And wolves do it all the time. Interesting. Yeah. Dude, my brother-in-law is telling me something that dogs, when they're too inbred, can get mental health issues. It seems to be the case with any living organism. You would think, right? Yeah.

But then dogs are so, like, a purebred dog, you're basically just being like, oh, that's the most inbred dog that there is. You know what I mean? It's like, like, is there any type of like, you know, from like the anthropological sense? Like, oh yeah, if you're just like, if dogs are banging each other too much, they get crazy. Like to me that would track, that would seem obvious. But yet we're making these perfect dogs that I guess we're never meant to exist in the first place, but then somehow they're purebred just because they're the most literally inbred. Yeah.

I mean, domestication syndrome in itself when you're breeding a dog constantly or an animal constantly to be more docile and into its, you know, domestic. form. There's a lot of inbreeding going on there, I imagine. And there must be adverse effects. Sure. I mean, like teeth crowding, I'm sure, has some type of issues. Teeth crowding, especially with, like, the more modern breeds, like the long wiener dogs, always have spinal issues. Pugs can't, like, breathe, basically. I mean, I think, like, bulldogs can't be born naturally. You have to, like, pull them out? Can you Google that? But, yeah, I think, like, the, I forget exactly what it is. My wife's a midwife. She's going to be so mad. I forgot this term. But basically,

like the cranium to pelvis ratio is just scientifically and biologically impossible or something like that. That is crazy. Okay, most modern bulldogs cannot be born naturally. They're mostly done C-section,

which is hilarious. Did you got to take him out the moon roof? That's wild. I'd never heard it called that. Yeah, dude, but yeah, apparently 90% of English bulldogs are born C-sects, which just seems like, dude, at a certain point, again,

I think Bulldogs are so cute, but it's like, it's kind of wild. I had a bio professor in grad school kind of explained with human evolution. Our heads are so fucking big, and you basically need a midwife. You need hospitals sometimes to have children. Right. That like if the walking dead or something like that ever happened, there's just going to be a huge bottleneck in human population because you can't, like it kills people. I could kill people for centuries before.

Dude, I talk to, there's a great book. I talk about it all the time on this very program. It's called Our Babies Ourselves by Meredith Small. She's an anthropologist out of, I think she was at Cornell for a while. She's retired now, but she's wonderful. And she basically wrote this book in the 80s, which was, like, for a long time within, like, sort of like the scientific granola kind of crunchy community is, like, the opus of, like, how to raise your kids.

And I loved it. It was so good. But she talks about, like, encephalization of human beings and that, like, human beings prior to being homo sapiens would gestate for, like, 12 to 13 months. Really? Or something like that. I didn't know that. And because our brains got so big, because we got smarter and our pelvices didn't necessarily

get big in kind, we're born all of us premature at nine months. And so she points out all this interesting research, we're like, we're born at nine months, basically completely, like, futile. Like, we can't do anything. Like, we're completely incapacitated. And then right around three months, there's a massive leap in cognition. And she suggests that, like, for that is the time that we're probably supposed to be born or like other hominids were born. And as a result, like, there's a huge leap

in like their ability to, like, move in order to like, you know, like feeding, like all the things you would need for survival. And her theory is basically just like all human beings are born premature because of encephalization, because our brains got bigger, likely due to like, you know, agriculture and, you know, like better nutrition stuff like that. Yeah. Like that brain gut flywheel thing. You know what I mean? Like as food got easier to digest, like our brains get bigger. Right. As a result, it's impossible. Like, having a kid is like so dangerous. Yeah.

Which is interesting because that also goes back to like religious philosophy. They're like, you would read like the Garden of Eden story, every Abrahamic religion. The punishment that is ascribed to Adam for eating of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, basically gaining consciousness, is that he has to toil in the field. He has to do work. He has to basically work the earth. Agriculture. And women's burden is that they have to have painful childbirth. Crazy.

which is effectively in cephalization, the brain growth that causes abnormally painful childbirth. Potentially, some people say more painful than other animals and more dangerous, also because of consciousness. That's crazy. I didn't know that. Fascinating kind of idea of like how mythos of early religions ties into our actual biology and anthropology. Yeah. The punishment's given to them is basically their fault for gaining consciousness and like sentience and some type of normal. That's wild, man.

Right. In Aztec. The Bible's true is what I'm saying. The Aztec pantheon mythology too. Like if you die as a warrior or in battle, you go live with the sun god, which of the postally. But also if you die giving birth, because they consider it a form of warfare. Whoa.

Because like it's just so can harrowing. I mean, it is, dude. I mean, I saw my wife give birth to our baby in our apartment. Wasn't your apartment? Yeah. That's wild. Everyone's always like on purpose? In like a tub.

It wasn't like a timing issue. And no, not a tub. I mean, tubs are like not atypical, but my wife, for whatever reason was like, I don't want to do a tub. Sometimes tub's going to actually be tough because they actually slow down birth because, like, you don't have gravity actually pushing on the cervix as it would, you know, without a tub. Yeah. I think Russians use ice baths. Yeah, probably. Something like that.

That's an actual thing. Some people will do what they call, I forget what's called, it's like free birthing or something. Or they try to have babies in like the ocean. Whoa. And then like anthropologists would be like, that's never how people do it. That's like so dangerous. Like, don't do that. And they're like, no, that's how the Native Americans did it.

And people like, that's not good. Don't not do that. That's wild, dude. But some people do it. I mean, yeah, exactly. White girls with dreads are known for having babies in the ocean. That would be the demographic I would pick. Yeah, exactly.

That's actually where white people come from. It's just on the sandy shores of Malibu. I was born from the sea. Yeah, exactly. But it's an interesting idea that like, You know, we had our baby in our apartment, and I saw the sacrifice my wife went through to, like, bring humanity forward

and, like, put more human beings on the earth. I was like, this is a battle. I was just, like, so impressed. I was just like, dude, y'all, you guys got it. You know what I mean? There's, like, so much more parody in our relationship. Like, any dude that things that, like, women have it easy, I'm like, just watch them have natural birth.

And immediately you'll be like, thank God I'm a guy. You know what I mean? We got such the better end of the deal. I got to go out in the field and, like, pick up stuff. That's so much better. than having a baby? Yeah. 10010%.

I don't think. Someone explained it like you'd have a golf ball going through your like dick. Oh, dude. Couldn't do it right now. I'm just like, nope. I'd rather. It's remarkable.

They'd rather have torpor in a cave. Exactly. Yeah. Oh, anyway, David, this has been fascinating. Yeah, man. Thank you so much, brother. I really appreciate the time. I feel like I learned very much.

Yeah. Unfortunately, the biggest takeaway is that wombat's poop and cubes. Wombat's two pooping cubes. Of all the work and research in school that you've gone to, the thing that I'm never going to forget. Is that? But thank you so much, man. Where can people find you if people want to learn more about this fascinating subject?

Can blow your mind with one more thing real quick? Absolutely. Yes, I got you this. Oh, I totally forgot about us. You're good. I meant to bring this up, but I ran to the bathroom. This is a called a level up point. It's a L-E-V-A-L.

It's some French shit. But this is a Neanderthal. I made this, but a Neanderthal could make this thing. And if you look at it, it's sharp on all three sides. it's like triangular. So what Neanderthals would do is take a piece of rock and bash it in certain

strategic foot napping in strategic ways where they would make it rather than a human who takes something and reduces it all the way down and basically carves it out of rock into a shape they want.

Neanderthals knew in the middle of the rock is a perfect flake like that they could use as a spearhead or a knife for whatever reason and they would like waste half the rock to get to just that And they use some of the other stuff too. But one thing I always tell people

about anthropology is like a non-human made bet. So you really have to think like what were they, how intelligent were they? Because if I handed you a rock or Donnie did, you wouldn't. I wouldn't know what to do. I'm dumber than in New Anandville.

That should be a Jeff Foxworthy show. Like are you smarter than Neanderthal? That would be fire. That's a pretty good show. The answer's probably not. Yeah. I would need a long time out there to figure this shit out. They would strap it.

to a stick and like it seems they only use thrusting spears on like rhinos and mammoths for whatever reason they also loved eating turtles um not sure why just easy enough to get i guess yeah i mean they're traditionally slow yeah i've heard the stories i like turtles but uh there's that so they i just always try to tell people like that's how neanderth a neonathal a non-human made that tool oh i think about homo florianzis in that way like the little guy yeah they were seafarate I think. Can you go that? Can you go that?

But at some point they would have had to hop on a little boat, I think. That's what someone told me. I forget who it was. Can you search Homo Florianza seafaring? But the idea that like these little dudes of the, I mean,

related to us in some capacity, you know what I mean, some type of genetic cousin or something? Yeah. Can you pull up an image? They're like a mutant homo erectus. I think all humans are mutant Homo erectus at this point, but this is like a very small island version

of a Homo erectus. Or search like tools. You know, Gabe's horny ass, almost clicked on the naked. You fucking freak. The Homo Florizio, see? Yeah. Oh, come on.

Show me a tool, dude. I had an anthropologist here that showed me some of their tools, but they had fascinating tools. And I think she had said, like, can you search a boat? I mean, you're also... Homo erectus may have had boats getting to Australia or parts of island in Southeast Asia. I mean, Gabe does have an expelled. I'm not going to call them out for that, you know?

No, no, that happens. It all, it's... We all have our days. But, no, the idea that homoero... rectus might have had boats. Like other non-homosapians could sail. They could make some type of little skiff. Sure. I'll take that. Why not? Right. I mean, that supports my theory. Why not? Yeah. I mean, dude, I mean, if we're just bullshit and like, yeah, I'm right. They've made a galleon. Exactly. Yeah. But the idea that like, I don't know how to build a boat.

Like I could maybe figure it out, put some pieces together, something. But like, the idea that non-human beings had the intelligence to build stuff, I think so often in Maddo, we look at ancient peoples, ancient Homo sapiens, we're like, oh, they're dumb. Yeah. And ancient non-human hominids and were like, they're even dumber. Like they were just like grunting, running around caves. It's like, sure, if you go far enough back. But there's a little interim period where they're developing tools.

They're like making like art in some capacity. Yeah. It's fascinating. Yeah. I mean, it technically is artistic. And you got to imagine and think of that thing inside of the rock to get there. Right. Which is also, you know, I don't know if dogs can do that or not.

You require spatial reasoning and like awareness? Yeah, that'd be a good way to put it. It's also a little dumb that they're like cutting off like perfectly good, you know, arrowheads. Yeah. To get to the middle part. And it's like a little wasteful. It's like, yeah, dude, well, you broke off 50 of these to get one of these. Yeah.

I can see why I'll die it out. Yeah, we just banged them to death. These are all for you. But that's just a regular stone tool I made. What is this one made out of? That is Georgetown Flint from. Texas, just a regular spearhead point or atlattle dart. And then this, my friend made, it broke in the plane, unfortunately, my backpack.

The top of it, but that's a Clovis point. They let you on the plane with us? Yes. As of now, we'll find out when I get back. But that's the tool that my homo sapiens that got to the Americas would have used, like, modern humans. The mammoth hunters that came through Beringia probably had dogs, not sure yet. There's no genetic, there's no archaeological evidence of it yet.

But the early, you know, paleo-Americans, paleo-indians that got here used that tool and it has a distinct flute on the bottom. It's like that little channel. So they would get all the way down and make this huge tool, get down to this thing, it's very thin, and then take this very risky hit on the end to knock that channel off. And oftentimes it would just break the point in half. But for whatever reason, it's either shows artistic skill, craftsmanship, or maybe it helped socket it on. to the spear better. Right. But they all distinctly have that.

It's a very, like, uniquely North American, like, tool industry. Fascinating. Really cool. But, yeah, that's, like, the most sought after, like, point in the black market and the Americas. Whoa. And that one's made by it. That's, um, I want to say Texas tab shirt or something like that.

It's a type of Flint. Do you know who would have made this type of thing, like, in terms of, like, indigenous population? That is, like, kind of early archaic-sized, like, basal-notched point. So that would have just been like most of the plains tribes and the eastern woodlands tribes would have been making something like that probably seven to five thousand years ago. Fascinating. And I would say indigenous Americans probably had some of the best. People argue like French flintnappers and stuff in the caves had better stuff.

But all around, since these people were in the stone age till like 1492 essentially, and some people use copper and bronze and stuff, but they're copper, I should say, they just had in like thousands of years to perfect being good flintnappers. And it's just like such a cool I guess the way to phrase that It was like without agriculture And like then metalworking and like Rome and Greece and all that I think most of the world would have lived How they did until like you know 14-90s

Yeah and just the way they they adapt to the environment and live To that point of being in the Stone Age I've read I read recently that some I think like Central American tribes I don't remember exactly who Maybe Gabe you can look this up We're using iron Iron. Now, let me caveat this. Okay.

You need tin to make iron. America didn't have tin. If my memory is serving me correct. So people are like, dude, how is it possible they had iron? Meteoric iron would land in the Americas. Dudes would find it and they would make, like, tools out of meteoric iron. I'd never heard that. That's pretty much. Can you Google this, Meteoric Iron Native American or something? I know there's like copper culture up by the lakes.

I think Dan might have talked about that. Oh, but yeah. Renham meteorite, iron source for Native Americans. Come on, dude. I mean, this is wild. So they would just find a meteor from the gods, from Ketzel Kodal or whoever. Whoever, yeah, the servant god. And then they would just start making shit out of it.

And they would, like, there's images of the stuff they actually made. Like, some of it was like traditional, like beating and artwork. and then other, I'm pretty sure it was like, like potentially weapons and people don't know if they were actually used or if they were just like ceremonial. Yeah, because it was so rare. Yeah, but like people were like, yeah, dude, they technically had iron. Huh.

Big technicality. Sure, sure. Not like a whole industry out of it, but. I mean, that's pretty sick. I don't know if that's, but all that to say, pretty fascinating. Very fascinating. Thanks for having me, dude. Of course, but thank you so much for these.

I mean, kind of can you know? Yeah, absolutely. Sorry it broke in the transit. Dude, not at all. I'm glad you didn't get jammed up in TSA. Yeah. But also they probably let you go through. And I mean, they're like, dude, we got hijacked by a Native American.

Yeah. Yeah, if that happens, you deserve it. Worst people to hijack, I guess, but the French. Dude. Yeah, giant bird. Yeah, man. And then one other thing I want to tell you, you're not to kiss ass by any means. No, please do.

But when Donnie was like, you should do his pod, I, you know, looked you up. And I had seen you on Flagreb, but I didn't know your own thing. You are a very good YouTuber. Thank you. I appreciate you saying that. Your style. Yeah, it's just real good. and one thing I would love, like science has a lot of issues

like with, you know, dogma and like how we communicate it. But if I can get more scientists to do like YouTube or format such stuff or even do like a lecture as a special, I think it would be cool. But the way you, you know, present information, and I can tell you have a genuine interest and stuff. It's very, it's very cool. Thank you, bro. I appreciate you saying that, man.

No, I mean, I genuinely am inspired and I watch guys like you and people that make scientific YouTube content. And yeah, that's, I absorb and, consume a lot of that. And the people that do it really well are like my favorite and I think are like a genuine boon for society. The fact that all this information is democratized and people can access it for free. It's overwhelming the amount you can get. It's remarkable. It's like truly amazing. I love that a lot of it is like verbal because my theory going back to the on some anthropology vibes. I almost view books as a deviation from like the human process of transferring information.

You know what I mean? Like, I mean, written, like language in some form has existed like a few thousand years. You got like cuneiform tablets from Samaria or something. So for most of human history, we've just been transferring information through words, actual like interface with human being sharing ideas, passing on information to people asking questions. Yeah. And then you have books, which is great. But then all the early books are written in dialogues. Like they're literally written as a podcast.

Yeah, kind of. You know what I mean? It's just a podcast. It's just Plato being like, I said this, this dude said this. And I was like, actually, bro, it's this. And that's just like all these early, like, platonic scribes. And then you have books that kind of like just kind of put things into, like, pros. And now we come back to people like you making content on YouTube and Instagram and other people like you that, you know, make interesting videos with actual expertise.

And I'm like, oh, we're back. You know what I mean? Like, we're back to the way human beings are like, have always transferred information. Yeah, that's a good point. And it's all just stems from cave art on the walls and stuff like that. Just saying like I was here kind of thing. Oh, which also is sick. I didn't even realize this.

That's so far. Oh, I got. Here, I know we got to go. But this one was made, uh, I had this bone poked into me. No way. And then this part here was, um, thrown with stone. Like, it wasn't those ones, but something similar. And then he smeared it in.

Ciphyllis on it. Well, yeah. I was actually going to put my dog's ashes in it, but I forgot them. No. It was like, well, fuck it. And it was an eight-hour session, just like. How painful? Poking it in.

Not painful at all. man. Really? Like in terms of the machine, it really buzzes you, but like the bone poke was just so simple. Take this off rather than put it back on. Would you ever, would you ever get scarred? I think so. Yeah, this was basically scarring. It was just like cutting that in there. That's what I'm wondering. Would you ever get like legit scarified like, you know, mercy tribe, you know, in Central Africa? Like just fucking. I think I would, man. I'm meeting up with my friend on Tuesdays. Archaeology Inc. is his Instagram or whatever. but he's like his whole thing mine's dogs has his ancient tattooing practices and scarification and all that and he's just like his autism is that yeah uh and he's just so good at the or i should say like

he's really good at it but the the anthropology of tattooing and like body modification is like almost as cross-cultural as dogs are it's pretty sick oh so i love tattoos but anyway well get me get me lined up with him because that sounds awesome we'll do and in exchange i'll scar you right now if you want to take a shirt off let's go yeah anyway brother Thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate people can find you. David Ian Howe on Instagram, YouTube, all that? Yeah, ethno-synology is the Instagram, but you can find David and Howe as well.

You're a legend. I appreciate you, brother. Thank you so much. And thank you guys for tuning in. I appreciate it a lot. All the links are in the description. Gabe, thanks for always being here, man. I really appreciate you.

Thank you. Yeah, of course. And thanks for pulling up great stuff, dude. You were just some sick picks up there, some cool links, some cute stuff, clicking on some, you know, native baddies, respect. Thank you all so much. We'll see you next time. Peace.