Catalyst with Shayle Kann - AMA: Fuel cells, geopolitics, and the solar growth curve

Episode Date: September 17, 2026

As we head into the final quarter of this pivotal and dramatic year for the energy sector, Catalyst host Shayle Kann takes stock of 2026 so far – and considers what’s to come – in this AMA-style episode. He discusses the year’s biggest stories, the trends that have surprised him the most, and his hot takes on the current energy landscape. Shayle dives into topics including: - The data center backlash and why it has become more bipartisan than he expected - The impacts of the war in Iran on global EV adoption, and how the rollback of U.S. tax credits has countered that momentum - Why fuel cell maker Bloom Energy is flourishing amidst the rush for behind-the-meter generation - Tariff innovations: How big data centers could subsidize retail electricity rates in small utility territories - Why Shayle thinks predictions of a flattening U.S. solar market are underestimating massive growth potential - Hot take: why Shayle thinks massive grid capacity is about to hit the system - Catalyst: What comes after the data center backlash? - Catalyst: Can AI revolutionize grid operations? - Catalyst: Why C&I storage is finally taking off - Catalyst: Enter the electric supercycle - Catalyst: Inside the global fertilizer crunch Credits: Hosted by Shayle Kann. Produced and edited by Max Savage Levenson. Original music and engineering by Sean Marquand. Stephen Lacey is our executive editor. Catalyst is brought to you by EnergyHub. Peak season puts every grid to the test — and the utilities that pass are the ones that built flexible capacity before they needed it. EnergyHub works with more than 170 utilities to coordinate 2.5 million devices and 3.4 gigawatts of dispatchable flexibility through a single platform designed to perform when it counts most. See what that looks like at ⁠https://www.energyhub.com/⁠ Catalyst is brought to you by Bloom Energy. Bloom Energy fuel cells deliver affordable, ultra-reliable onsite power for hospitals, utilities, and data centers – at speed and at scale. Learn more by visiting ⁠https://www.bloomenergy.com⁠ This episode of Catalyst is brought to you by ENGIE, the smarter energy supplier. ENGIE doesn't just provide the power to run your business — they supply the energy to move it forward, with reliable, flexible solutions built for what's next. Learn more at ⁠https://www.engieresources.com

Latitude Media covering the new frontiers of the energy transition. I'm Shail Khan. I invest in early stage companies at energy impact partners. Welcome to Catalyst. All right, we've got a quick one for you this week. My producer, Max Savage-Levinson, who you've heard his name. If you listen to the end of this podcast, thank you, if you do that. But you haven't heard him otherwise. You haven't heard him directly.

He popped on with me to ask a bunch of questions, some that were on his mind, some that we've gotten from listeners, just a bunch of things that are happening in the market right now. It was a good conversation. Listen up and we'll be back with regular programming next week. Here's next. In May and June alone, millions of thermostats, batteries, and EVs across North America

shifted energy during peak periods, quietly becoming one of the most powerful resources on the grid. Energy Hub builds and operates virtual power plants or VPPs that turn 2.5 million customer devices. into 3.4 gigawatts of dispatchable capacity. That's the equivalent of more than three nuclear reactors worth of flexible, clean grid capacity, coordinated from customers' homes. Learn more at energy hub.com.

For data center developers, power availability is the defining challenge, but it's not the only one. Today, growth also hinges on earning a community's trust. Bloom Energy solves for both. Bloom's fuel cell platform delivers on-site power for the digital age, sustainable, reliable, and scalable from tens to hundreds of megawatts. Bloom generates electricity without combustion, meaning lower emissions, minimal water use, and quieter operation than conventional solutions.

That's why developers and utilities turn to Bloom to power their operations, and you can learn more at Bloomenergy.com. Catalyst is brought to you by NG. Your business has enough challenges. Energy shouldn't be one of them. That's why NG builds tailored energy solutions around real business, business needs to support growth, strengthen predictability, and move businesses forward. Because real power comes from shared expertise and relationships that outlast the paperwork.

Learn more at NG Resources.com. That's E N-G-I-E-N-G Resources.com. Hey, Max. Hey, Shale. Nice to see you on this fine Monday morning. Likewise. All right, this is your show. You take it away. Right on. Okay, so we're going to start with a few questions, just kind of looking back at 2026 so far. First question for you is a trend, an idea, some tech. What's something that's really just surprised you so far this year? I would say that what has surprised me is the degree to which the data center backlash gained a foothold as quickly as it did. I think it was sort of predictable that we were going to see. see some community opposition. And, you know, I had

inklings of it getting pretty serious a while ago, but it really rose to prominence very quickly. And I also think the degree to which has become pretty bipartisan is a little surprising to me. Sort of everybody seems to be on the same page, except interestingly at the moment, President Trump seems to be the one voice saying, yeah, don't worry about it. But basically everybody else is.

And that's because I think politics are local and, you know, local communities are actually pretty upset about it, and it's not really on one side of the political spectrum. But that came faster and has become more serious than I expected. And, like, the fact that we've got versions of a pause or a moratorium from both, for example, New York and Texas is interesting. You mentioned you're surprised that it's, proven to be so bipartisan,

is there like a party you would have assumed would have been leaning into this more? Yeah, I think you would have, intuitively, I would have thought that Democrats or progressives would have been the ones with more community opposition.

You've seen more community opposition from the left on, particularly because some of the issues that people have are like water use, which may be a false issue, but none the last, it is one of the main reasons. And obviously that you'd expect to come more out of progressives. And indeed, like, I think the most, I guess you use the word extreme version of the anti-Data

Center sentiment is coming from people like Bernie Sanders, who's saying, you know, as we're recording this, like there's this big hubbub over Dario Amadeh from Anthropic, wrote this piece saying we need to pace the development of AI and Sam Altman agreed and Elon Musk agreed and everything. And Bernie came out and said, pacing's not enough. We need to stop. Yeah. So, you know, he's definitely taking the view that I think you would have expected him to take.

And then meanwhile, on the right, you know, Republicans have sort of embraced crypto more. And so you would have thought that that side, I think, and, you know, has a more libertarian tendency as well. You would have thought that side would have been more in favor. But, again, it's like, at the moment, it's not mostly a one-side political issue. It's like a local community issue. and also, I think, a generalized AI anxiety problem. Well, I'm sure we'll come back to related topics in a bit, but one other thing I was keen to ask you about

is the war in Iran and its impact on energy writ large. I mean, I feel like especially at the outset of the war, there was a lot of talk and conversation around what it would mean for the EV market. And I'm just kind of curious how you've seen that play out. There is not, in my opinion, great evidence that it has had a huge direct impact on the EV market, partially because, you know,

you tend to see a kind of weak correlation, I think, between oil prices or gasoline prices or petrol prices and EV adoption. But you do see a little bit of correlation there. And, you know, those prices are up, but not as much as people expected, right? At the beginning of the war, there was talk about, well, if this goes on, we might see $200 a barrel oil,

and we haven't. It's been hovering around 100 as of this recording. So it's up, but it's not up in a way that totally changes the game. I think that if you want to just look at the data, globally outside Europe and the U.S., we've had a doubling of EV sales this year relative to last year. In Europe, it's up 29% this year, which is significant, but in keeping with the growth that we had seen historically. And in the U.S. at the same time, it's downed.

21%. And that, of course, is because the incentives disappear. The tax credits disappeared mostly. So, you know, I don't think you can point to any of those numbers and say clearly the Iran War had a big impact on it. I think you can definitely say that in the U.S. at least, whatever impact the Iran War had or has had, it's been swamped by the loss of the EV tax credit. And in Europe and the rest of the world, I think you could say, you know, possibly it boosted what was an preexisting trend of increased TV adoption? On a related note, we had Josh Linville on a few months ago who talked about the war's impact on fertilizer specifically.

And I was just curious if there are like other ways in which you think the war has impacted energy that have gone underreported or under acknowledged. I think the one thing that I've been hearing a lot, but I haven't seen discussed a lot publicly, maybe this is because I'm here in the U.S., it's a Europe-specific thing, which is, I think, the one thing that the combination of the war in Iran and the Russia-Ukraine war, that kicked it off, and then this has really solidified it, is Europe is getting much more serious about sovereignty and being able to control their own destiny than they had historically. I mean, you can see this in defense spending is the obvious place where this has played out,

where Europe is really ramping that up. But I think you can also see it in energy policy and energy strategy. So I think there's much more of a desire in Europe not to be forced into this perennial net importer position. And that has tailwinds for anything that can be a domestic resource or a regional resource for Europe. I think that piece of it, the European sovereignty thing, is ultimately going to be a big deal in the long term, but just takes a while to play out. And then the last question I had for you kind of to file under reflections on 2026 so far, is there a company, a technology, a concept that you think has like been a real underdog this year, or an unsung hero?

You definitely cannot actually call this an underdog because the company that I'm about to mention is, I don't know where they are right now, but last time I looked, they were like a $50 billion company and at one point they were an $80 billion company. And nonetheless, I think you don't hear enough people sort of like talking about this story, which is bloom energy and fuel cells, I guess if you want to generalize it, which is, you know, I think what we've seen

in this wave of AI energy demand and then the rise of behind the meter generation is, of course, like, all of the gas turbines that can be bought are being bought, And then there's this next category of like anything that has operating data, lots of operating data. Yeah. And so that applies to reciprocating engines and other things, but also to Bloom's fuel cells, which have the benefit of a lot of operating data. And then also have the benefit of somewhat easier air permitting, which is air permitting is quickly becoming like one of the couple of big barriers to getting this stuff built.

So Bloom's been around for forever, and they've had a long ride, and they're one of these companies that just like kind of was in the right place at the right time, and then has been taking advantage of it and has been able to, they're scaling up substantially. They're winning these massive orders from Oracle and others. And so they're like a, they're sort of a darling of the moment, but like they've been through, Bloom's been around since before the Clean Tech 1.0 cycle. And then they rode that wave up and down, managed to go public, were kind of sitting there. as a small cap public company for quite a while, and then boom, this thing hit, and they're killing it. Nice. Okay, so switching gears a bit, looking towards the rest of 2026 and beyond. What's a technology, a trend you've got your eye on?

Well, I've talked about this on a couple of episodes before, but I'll put a finer point on it now, which is, are we going to see a data center, an utility announce a new tariff that substantially, and like in a big way, subsidizes electricity prices for other customers. We've seen it in a small way. I'm wondering are we going to see it a big way. And, you know, I said, I think on the last episode of this podcast that when I was talking to Andy Lubershane that I hadn't run the math yet to figure out was that really possible. I've run the math now. And it is entirely possible.

in a small utility territory in particular. So if you have the combination of big data center plus small utility, that's what you need for this to really play out. But if you have big data center, small utility, given the expectations for the revenue and the margins that these gigascale data centers are going to be able to attain, I think you can reasonably assume that there could be a really, really big subsidy,

perhaps all the way to what Vivek Ramoswami is proposing in Ohio, which is to subsidize everybody's electricity prices down at zero. Probably not for the full state of Ohio, but in these smaller utility territories, it's not crazy to imagine that something like that could happen. I don't think it's likely to go all the way there, but 20% subsidy, 50% subsidy, I don't know. The math works.

There's a lot more complexity to actually enacting it, but I'm watching to see whether that happens, because I don't see why it can't. Right. Wasn't one of the things that came up in the conversation with Andy that, like, you can't apply the rate to just one county within the territory? That's why this doesn't work for a big utility. But for a small utility, if you are a, if it is a utility that has like a, let's say a three gigawatt peak load, and you're throwing another gigawatt onto the system. Now, there's like practical reasons why that's hard. You have to find a site.

You have to still, and this only works. The subsidy is only going to do the trick if you can energize that thing pretty quickly. So it's like, you know, you're looking for a unicorn set of circumstances where you actually can. interconnected gigawatt scale load on a three gigawatt system. Now, to be fair, like, that is things that are of that order are happening already. So it's not totally impossible. But if you have a three gigawatt total system, then what I'm talking about is a tariff that subsidizes every customer in that territory, not trying to single out the county or something like that. Peak temperatures don't have to mean peak prices. When summer heat drives demand up,

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You obviously at the beginning of the show we're talking about the AI backlash that I feel like, especially over the course of the past few days, has really ramped up a lot or felt more zeitgeisty. And on top of that, there is this sentiment shift that we've been talking about. Do you see all of those factors actually adding up to slowing down the data center building?

out. You know, it's all relative, but relative to what would have happened had we not had all this, you know, hubbub, certainly. Yeah, for sure, right? You just look at Texas, because I think that's probably the most indicative example. Like, we're still going to build a lot of large load capacity in Texas. I have no doubt about that. But it will be delayed. A lot of it is already being delayed because of this process that Governor Abbott has pushed through. Will it be delayed by five years? I don't think so, but will be delayed by six months or a year or something like that? Then yes. So on a relative basis compared to like the counterfactual of if there had been no guardrails whatsoever and no restraints on building other than what we had seen historically,

we'll build less. I don't think that is going to translate to, you know, that is not going to be what slows down the pace of Frontier AI. It may be something more like the regulatory body that some of the AI leaders seem to want to have created, but I don't think that the inability to build data centers is going to be that thing. So not in your most recent conversation with Andy Lubres-Shane, but the one before it, you guys were talking about the electric super cycle,

and I get the sense that you're pretty bullish on solar capacity as a component of that. just last week, Sia and Woodmac came out with an analysis of current and forward-looking solar capacity. And from stalking you on Twitter, I got the sense that you thought that was still a bit low. And I was hoping you could unpack that argument. Sure. Yeah. I mean, first, one could say that the safest bet, possibly the safest bet to make in all of electricity,

is to look at whatever the does. dominant forecast is for solar growth and then bet the over on it. Because over the course of like 20 years now, everyone, whether it's on a U.S. basis or a global basis, generally underpredicts how much solar we're going to build. It just like keeps happening over and over again. So there's that. But also I'm, I think we're just going to build a ton of solar in the U.S. over the next five or ten years. That forecast from CN Woodman said, okay, we built a lot so far this year. and it's up a fair bit year over year, and that is partially because of the timing

of the tax credit expiration, and so people are rushing to get projects built, and as they said, it's going to be flat now for the rest of the decade, and I am at high confidence that it is not going to be flat. It is going to increase.

We're going to build a lot of solar. For a variety of reasons, right? The capacity is needed. The generation is needed more than the capacity because solar obviously doesn't offer that much capacity value unless you have batteries, which, by the way, they are. Most of these solar projects also have batteries.

It's deployable. It's fast. We're going to get a lot more domestic manufacturing capacity pretty soon. We already have some, and we're going to get a lot more. So even though tariffs are becoming a real challenge, it's still going to be reasonable. There are inflationary cost pressures on solar, but there are inflationary cost pressures on everything. So on a relative basis, it doesn't hurt solar anymore. And we really know how to build a lot of it very quickly.

and we are not in the same gummed-up supply chain situation that we are with gas. So, yeah, I think we're going to build record amounts of solar probably each year for the next five years. And, you know, I think the market generally does appreciate that forecast notwithstanding. You've also written recently about C&I, solar specifically fizzling, that it just hasn't really built momentum. From your perspective of what can be done to change that? So we had a conversation a while ago on this podcast

with Tim Hayd, who's now at Voltus, but was it Brightfield, which was talking about commercial industrial storage, not solar. But I think the bet you would have to make on C&I solar finally taking off is pretty similar to the one you'd have to make on C&I batteries taking off, which is basically like a two-fold bet.

one being that just the relative economics are better than they've ever been. In other words, commercial electricity prices are rising a lot and solar is becoming cheaper, question mark, question mark. But if that is true, then, you know, it just makes more economic sense. I think that is necessary but not sufficient. And then the other condition has to be that you can radically reduce the soft costs associated with CNI. So the problem with CNI is, you're kind of in this nether region where you can't just like stamp out thousands of these things that look the same

and automate everything historically like you can for residential. Your transaction costs are high but you don't amortize them over a large project as you do with utility scale. So you're in this like stuck in between zone, wherever you're the worst of both worlds.

There is a bet to make that you, that AI will allow so much automation that much of those soft costs can be driven down to virtually nothing. And then the fact that you're in that nether region may not hurt quite as much. So I think the bet you'd have to make for C&I solar to really take off is like,

economics look great, plus you can radically reduce the cost stack via AI and derivative stuff. In the last question for you, we're going to do a catalyst version of subway takes what is your hot take on energy right now? I think people are undercounting the grid and utilities, particularly in AI world. There's this narrative that has arisen that the grid can't keep up

and it's slow and so everybody's going to build everything behind the meter. And to be clear, I think we're going to see a ton of behind-the-meter capacity to get built. But I also think that I think it's worth appreciating the decision-scied. that occur in electricity and how

it is not the fastest reacting sector because there's this whole process. Utilities go through with their regulators and they submit integrated resource plans and so on and that those are multi-year cycles. So it takes a while. But once that all ramps up,

once the gears are turning and the momentum is built, we can't actually build quite a lot of new stuff. So I think the market does not fully appreciate that like those gears have really only gotten spun up over the past couple of years. And if you look out now a couple of years from today, I think we will be building more capacity on the grid in two years from today than we have in any year since, I don't know, since certainly before the turn of the century, and probably a couple decades before that. So I think, you know, give the grid more credit. Just he's going to be a

little bit patient. Nice. Well, those are all the questions we have for you. today. This was fun. Thanks very much. Thanks for doing it. This show is a production of latitude media. You can head over to latitudemedia.com for links to today's topics. This episode is produced by Max Savage-Levinson, mixing and theme song by Sean Marquand. Anne Bailey edits the video version of the show. Stephen Lacey is our executive editor. All of our episodes are on YouTube. Subscribe to Latitude Media for episodes of this podcast and Open Circuit. And you can find the audio version of the show anywhere you get your podcasts. I'm Shale Conn. And this is Catalyst.