Cleared Hot - Powered By BRCC - Cleared Hot Episode 108 - SBGI Roundtable with Matt Thorton, John Frankl, and Travis Davison

Episode Date: December 23, 2019

This episode is a repost of a podcast that was recorded for SBGI (Straight Blast Gym International) while we were in Niagra Falls for the fall camp.   In this episode, I am on the receiving end of the questions, instead of asking them.  We discussed fake martial arts/military tactics, the war in Afghanistan, Jiu-Jitsu (obviously), and life in general.  Enjoy, and see you in 2020. 

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they're high quality but i'm going to say it again use supplementation after you have the macro of your life figured out, your rest, your recovery, your diet, and then you can dial into the micro aspect and get that last little bit of performance. If you eat like a garbage disposal, I'm going to take a bunch of supplements. What you're going to get is expensive piss, and I don't want you to do that. So, focus on the macro first, then dive in onto the micro. That's all I got. Episode 108 is actually a repost from an SBG podcast, stands for Straight Blast Gym, and we recorded this in Niagara, and I'm reposting it because I often get questions directed towards me. And in this particular episode, I sat down with John Frankel,

who's a return guest of the podcast, Travis Davison, also a return guest. And then Matt Thornton, the founder of SBG. Between the three of them, there is approximately 272 years of martial arts and black belt experience. I just made that number up. I have no idea how many years there are. but let's just say if you line up all of their black belts together, there's a lot of stripes.

So about 270 years worth of experience. And the questions were more directed at me, which led towards conversation that hopefully you enjoy. And that will be episode number 108. Repost from SBG with John Frankel, Travis Davison, and Matt Thornton. Enjoy. I'm looking at danger close now. I'm all one a minute. I think the, that's the most common thing I hear is that an association.

It happens in the exercise world. It happens in the gun world. It happens in the gun peripheral gear word, the holster. Like, this is the official Navy SEAL watch. This is the official fill in the blank. Yeah. Yeah, that's the hook that they obviously intentionally try to get people with. I look back in my career.

Like I said, we went through, when I went through selection on the East Coast, we started with, it was a week of this. You either got hit in the head repeatedly in the morning and then went into the killhouse and shot, or you went into the killhouse first and shot and then got hit in the head repeatedly in the afternoon. So I had a headache for a week, and it was like a duct-in stance that you had to use, and you had to keep your hands in. The whole answer was just to firehand everybody, and I just would pay so much money to get a chance to go back to that. And say, can we maybe. What's fire hand?

That was the description. You got to move them like your hands are on fire quickly. Put them out. Huh. Not heard of that before. Yeah. So this is like boxing? It didn't look anything like boxing.

Are you wearing gloves? No. It was like boxing except it didn't work. You know, it's, I'm sure. And the thing, this was a long time ago, but the thing I remember is, you know, close the distance, rapidly. Kempo. But at the same time, too, you still have to think about weapons retention.

Yeah. You got to think about all of your gifts. on you. It just in hindsight, it was, it was that, and then they taught us some very basic

prisoner handling stuff. That was the only hand-to-hand stuff that I was taught in 17 years. Everybody, you know, the most common seal thing. Can you kill somebody

with your pinky? It's like, no, it's the index finger. Has it gotten better? I'm trying to wrap my mind around this. It's got this? Yeah,

fire hand. Fire. And you would, like, literally it was like a pigeon-toed stance to protect of getting hit in the nuts and you can move forward and backwards.

Sounds like Wing Chun. Yeah. And I just, I just, I used it zero times, for real, ever. One, because I can strike somebody with a weapon so much more effectively, specifically a rifle. Like, why would I drop that to do this? Yeah, because I look back to some of the drills. We did a drill called the hooded box drill.

Have you guys ever heard this one? They tape a square on the ground, and they put a fabric bag over your head, basically. And then they'll set up scenarios. And you're armed with simulation rounds, or at least the way I did it, we had simulation rounds. I think it was both rifle and pistol. And you sit there and they'll rip it off your head.

It's like on a string and you have to react to the situation in front of you. And it could be an unarmed person walking at you and it's awesome because you see guys like, you're like, no. No. Okay, let's go through this again. And then there's another one. They pull it up and there's somebody standing right in front of your face. But they're not being aggressive.

And it's just all these different scenarios. and in the instructor said once you go through it one time you're forged, which is why they can't put you through it a second time, because you'd be too dangerous. Wow. Are these instructors military guys themselves? Paid contractors. They were not military guys.

However, this particular training methodology got its hooks in somehow, and it was around for a while. The stuff that's going on now is definitely more combative, I think it's just they called a combatist program. I did not go through it, so I might be speaking slightly out of school, but from my understanding, it's much more based around, there's a stand-up aspect, a grappling aspect to it, a striking aspect, and then the jiu-jitsu is kind of the roots of the essence

of a lot of the hands-on stuff. Our stuff, I mean, it was very simple. Like, you know, one, most of the time they're going to comply because I have a gun, and the interpreter tells them to lay down, and, you know, it's basically a lot of, it was driving knees and manipulating body parts, and manners that if you didn't do it right, you would actually elicit a response that the person could end up getting hurt or killed.

And they had no, and it was unfortunate, because if you, I mean, you guys, probably, if you drive your knee into the back of somebody's head, they're gonna freak out and they're gonna fight harder, and which is gonna elicit, you know, then you're starting to play this chess game and escalating responses and, yeah, it was a shit show. They did the best they could,

and I think it's gotten drastically better, but yeah, that's the training method that I went through. So I've definitely seen that commando-based system. So how does a guy that teaches fire hands get that as part of the official curriculum? I don't know. Swing that a little bit closer to. I don't know.

Up here because you're coming in and out. There you go. Right here? Yeah, that's perfect. It'll be, the contracting side of the military is interesting. You can sole source contractors. it's very difficult to do. Most of the time you have to put things out to bid.

I was not directly involved with this person getting this contract, so I don't know for sure, but I know that there is sole source contracts, or there are sole source contracts, and then there are open bid. It could have been an issue of price. It could have been an issue of previous training experience with other military units.

It could have been an issue of he knew somebody on the inside, like a friend relationship, and his pile got put on the top. They could have sole sourced it. I don't know, but once it goes into the contracting world, it can get a little bit squirly, so I'm not sure. But it might have come down to an dollar and cents things as well.

He might have gotten his, if you can show a history of working with the government, from my understanding, you're much more likely to continue getting contracts. So towards the tail end of the year, military is October 1 to September 30th for a fiscal year. Towards the tail end, you might be running out of money, and you still need to get training in this individual and his organization will do it for X amount of price, but then they can show repetitive history of doing it. and the next thing you know, they're just in this self-turning cycle. They get a few disciples, is the word that I will use,

on board inside of the community, and then it could either be a great thing or a terrible cancer. Never used it once. Know of nobody who ever used it. It's possible, I suppose. It is possible. Wouldn't have worked well today. Everything is possible.

What would you tell a younger man who's looking in a martial arts magazine or a video and you hear something like systemic? some other ridiculous martial art being advertised as you know Russian spets, notts training, what would you tell them? In the modern day, I would just, I mean, I think my first question would be how many times have you ever seen that used in a public form and setting where winning, it's all based on your performance

which leads to the victory, basically the UFC litmus test? How many times have you ever seen that used actually for real in an environment where you can't, Travis told me this one, you know, a long time ago, I'm like, don't watch the person demonstrating the technique. Watch the person who the technique is being demonstrated on. Well, in the UFC, I'm pretty sure that nobody wants to be demonstrated any technique of any kind. So that, to me, is a much more likely, and take, if they lead with Spetsnas or Special Forces or... Krohmagah.

Israeli, that's, oh, God, I've lost my mind for a few weeks last year. Not necessarily Krob Maga, but just some of the shooting stuff I found online. To me, that's more of a warning sign, to be honest. Okay. Because just like there is no official seal watch, there's no official seal combatives system. Yeah. It's a merging of things that they think will work and that they apply towards the environment. It's likely going to be used.

The biggest warning for me is people say that stuff. Like, this is how the Rangers do it. I'm like, I don't know that they do. But you might fool a lot of people if you say that. And to go from military to civilian. So in the military, obviously, like, your gun being the first option is not a bad thing because you're going to war. Well, it gives you distance, that's for sure, generally. What do you think about the people?

Because this is a common thing that comes up with your average citizen. So now we're not talking about veterans. We're not talking about, you know, active duty. Sure, average Joe. Yeah. Who says, well, I have a gun. Like, their response to everything is, well, I just shoot them. I mean, you can.

can have fun in prison for the rest of your life because I'm just going to shoot them is an answer that from a statistical perspective, the number of people who are going to encounter that in their lifetime is astronomically low. I think the number of people who would be peripheral to violence drastically exceeds the number of justifiable shooting situations. And the reality is if you carry a gun and you don't know how to use it, you're a danger to yourself and everybody who is around you. Most people will go and I've seen this. They'll go and they'll buy a gun and they go to range it's very linear and it has boxed boxed out shooting lanes and it's right in front of you the 25 50 yards and they'll go in there with the lights on and they'll shoot their gun and they'll say

I'm good and now I'm going to carry it and I'll throw Rory under the bus because fuck that guy actually I love Rory we were talking up a death match today and we just were laughing and cackling the whole time when we were rolling but he was talking about his gun and I always I love asking people about the tools that they use. Like, okay, cool, what kind of gun is it? And regardless of what kind of gun he was going to tell me, of course I was going to make fun of him. Like, oh, that's a good women's model. That's good. I'm not even exactly sure what he had. But then I actually started asking some questions that are important. Do you have night sights on your weapon? And his answer was no. And I asked him if he was aware that half of every day is nighttime. And there are environments

that you can go into that are low light. And how would you aim in a low light situation? Have you ever shot at a moving target? Have you ever tried to draw a gun from a seated position? Have you tried to draw in a seated position with a seatbelt on? Where do you carry? Why do you carry it like that? And all those questions, if you don't think about that and your theory is, oh, I have a gun, most people also don't carry them loaded because they think that they're going to just develop these amazing fine motor skills to be able to index, draw, load, acquire a target, and shoot while somebody's probably running at them. And by the time they get their hand on the gun, it's probably going to be too close because as Paul Sharp showed a two-on-one with the pistol is pretty effective.

Two-on-one with the rifle barrel is even more effective. I mean, if you pull an unload gun on me, I'm going to kill you with it. It's awesome. I hope they do. But most people don't carry them loaded because they don't do enough training. They don't feel comfortable with it, but they feel like it's a safety device. And in my opinion, it actually introduces far more problems than it solves. And that's just assuming you're in a place where missing a shot wouldn't matter.

You know, backdrop is hugely important. You look at the guy who came into the movie theater years ago. It was in Colorado. It was a Batman, I think. It was a Batman. It came to mind because people were talking about that with the Joker movie coming out and how they thought it was going to inspire violence and people.

And I heard a lot of people, oh, man, if I was there, I would have shot him. You probably would have shot him and also many other people that were directly behind him. Same thing in a restaurant or in a bar, you shouldn't carry in in most states it's like if you have a sip of alcohol you're done with guns which it should be that way but there's so many things to consider and the last option should always be taking somebody's life you need to get through i mean i carry all the time in montana and the likelihood of me ever pulling that gun out of a holster is almost zero because if i do i'm going to use it but i'll go

through every tool that i have before that before you even show it yeah i mean if you pull a gun out and you don't intend to use it you're a moron yeah and it's i mean that that that act in of itself brandishing is, I mean, illegal also for intimidation purposes. But if it comes out, I mean, again, and you don't know how to use it and it's not loaded and you have somebody who can recognize that and then closes the distance and they know how to handle that particular tool, you have a serious problem on your hands. But that's just me. Another thing I was talking to these guys about on the way over here because they were talking

about like, oh, what questions you have for Andy or whatever? One thing that I'm interested in is the crossover from veterans to Jiu-Jitsu. Currently, it seems to be in vogue, let's say. Yep. With Jocko and that niche market where you've got these kind of former military, what is it about Jiu-Jitsu, or is there anything about Jiu-Jitsu that lends itself to appeal to veterans? I think there's a couple things there. First off, is it niche or niche?

Niche. Is it always niche? Or can you say niche? I'm sure, America, you can say it. I think you can say niche in America, but in France you have to say niche. Usually what I'll do, if I'm going to use that word, I try to use it twice in one sentence, and I say it both ways. Just to make sure that I'm correct. Cover your bases.

I think there is a little bit of the flavor of the aspirational or inspirational, like a guy for Jocko using him as an example. he's an influential person for sure. And his background doesn't hurt with that. People pay attention to it because of that. They see the activities that he is involved with and they want to be a part of it. So I think he would draw from both the veteran and the non-veteran crowd from that. Specifically for the veterans, at least the guys I know and the guys that I worked with. And even outside of the special operations world, the military is a task-based organization.

Here's your task. Go take care of it. and it's challenging and it changes. And a lot of guys miss that getting out. I certainly did when I had to find my own tasks instead of having somebody present them to me. And then into the specifically the community I came from, they're there are guys who appreciate hard work. They want to continue to constantly learn.

They don't ever want to get to a place where they're saying, hey, I'm the smartest guy in the room. They see the value in getting humbled and getting their ass kicked and learning a new skill because they've seen it enough times because of the way that the career and the training cycle is you learn something, but then you get to shelf that and you learn something else and you suck and you have to build yourself up and then you shelf that and you have to learn something else. And that's just a perpetual cycle throughout your entire career. So I think it fills a lot of that physical, arduous void for them.

And then, as you guys all know, it's mentally difficult in a variety of ways. You're going to have to control panic. You get to play aggressive if you want to. You can play defensive if you want to. And I saw those mentalities and all the people that I ever served with. as well. And I think it draws them, it draws them into that. People will generally seek that difficulty. Yeah, I just, uh, it, it seems like, and maybe I'm just a more aware of it now because of, like I said, mostly because of podcasts, honestly. Like I just, it, it, it, it seems like,

maybe it's, it's not as widespread as it, as it seems, but with like guys like Tim Kennedy and stuff, it just seems like there's this. It's, I mean, it's the armed services. It's a fighting culture. its core, except for the Air Force. I'm sorry. That's just the way it is. I'm just joking. I love people who are in the Air Force. I have respect for everybody. But they get pajamas in boot camp. I'm just saying, I mean, I can't help that. I think they do.

I actually don't know, but I say that they do. No, it's, you're rewarded for aggression often in any of those services. So if you come from an environment and you thrive in that environment and it's just taken away, and you don't have that outlet, I think it's natural for them to seek a place, even not where they're getting rewarded, but they can just touch back into it. And I actually think aggression is incredibly important.

I don't think it's something that should try to be suppressed. It should be controlled and contained, but it shouldn't be, and there should be no attempt to remove it. It's a service, too. It's a public service, I think, for guys like Tim Kennedy and Jocko. It's been good for them to come out with their background. And you can say things about Jiu-Jitsu,

that there's a certain demographic that's going to pay attention to it. Probably, yeah. And it's good that more and more people get pushed away from the silly, like the systema and that kind of stuff. The more people we can bring to Jiu-Jitsu, the better. What was the heyday of those systems?

I suspect that it was when information was probably more difficult to come by. And it was magazines, yeah. Maybe it was 80s. Maybe. 80s to, like, yeah, to the turn of the century. When you could get away with saying, oh, this is my secret.

You can just go right to Google and start pulling up YouTube videos. I have two answers. One is when Blackfield Magazine and inside Kung Fu magazine basically had a monopoly on information and people paid to get their

bullshit articles published. But we all, I think we all, for sure myself, I really believe like, okay, UFC won, maybe not. by UFC four or five I'm like the jig is up

like they're all going out of business and they haven't they're doing just as well are they really oh yeah so you could but so we're religious cults you know people

don't you think people kind of want to be lied to sometimes I was just going to say I was going to say like they're a witting participant sometimes and I don't want to which scares me

I don't want to be too negative but not always no not always sometimes there are people who genuinely let astray and then those are the ones that feel really grateful when they run into Travis's gym or another school yeah yeah go a little close with push it this just no not like this like bend it towards you no in and the first the first like one point five generation of SBG and one point five generation of my guys in korea come from martial arts that are less than functional, but who philosophically preach functionality.

And so I'm not talking about the people who basically don't even want it because there are people who don't even want it. But the people who want it but are being lied to. Wanted it and then were led astray or felt. They've been bait and switch. They are, you know. That was the SBG demographic in the beginning. Correct.

Pulling those people that had found out, they received the base switch. Yeah, that was the whole Bay. My first, I started. Yeah. So, SVG was all disillusioned, uh, Jake,

Jekuno guys, and my first wave of black belts in Korea was disillusioned Hopkido guys. How long did it generally take them to have that realization? Like, how deep down the rabbit hole would they get? Personal, right?

Some of them went far, though, right? I mean, it was a decade. Including me. Well, part of the problem, too, is with JKD in particular, it's mixed. So they'll have functional aspects of it. Like they'll do some kickboxing.

They'll even jujitsu, Paul Bunak. And, you know, he was one of the pioneers of introducing people to jujitsu. And then they'd click sticks together or do something complete like they would do like a fire hands. Yeah. And they never put two and two together partially because I think from the leadership down, they didn't know how to. And. But also there were sunk costs. And they felt too invested.

And they didn't want to give it up. That's a big piece. They wouldn't let go. Yeah. And guys like Adam and Rory, they came from that background. Really? Oh, yeah. They neglected to talk to us about that.

And me. And you. Damn it, Frankl. My coach, Chris Hatter was a JKD guy. Yeah. But. I wasn't a JKD guy. Because I didn't.

I'm late to the show for everything. What I mean is. He was a firehans guy. You were doing more important things. But I don't think either of us is insulting those people. I think we're complimenting those people. Yeah. Because they and I were honest.

It's like, oh, this is demonstrably better. I'm done. Yeah. Yeah. How can you not have more respect for the person that makes that choice than the one who just says, well, I'm 10 grand into this, so I'm going to continue regardless of the outcome. Yeah.

Yeah, that's tough. You sink that much money into something. And not just money, but the time. But you know, it's tougher? And the accolades, too. Okay. That's the bigger part of it. Right.

I'm a black belt now. I'm a third degree black belt and whatever. Well, Rokos. Aikido instructor who took an MMA fight wondering if Akeeto would work. Found out it didn't. I was going to say, I think I can guess

whether or not it did it. And actually, Andy was at Rokas' MMA fight. I was there. I didn't realize it was you. You sneaky son of a bitch. I had my little camera. Andy was there at ringside for that. Here's the deal, though. He came out hard. But that was after a lot of training at FG.

I know. But I'm just saying I wanted to yell the gentleman, it's three rounds because those guys came out at a pace that I know nothing about fighting but I was like wow that is not sustainable beyond a few minutes

and they did they were like they calmed it right down but yeah the pace you guys came out it was awesome man your fight was phenomenal I was staying up the whole time that was that was fight at the night that was Jed and him just knocked down and I got God

but there's there's Aikido guys that will argue with him who don't know the reality of it. There's Aikido guys who argue with him that do know the reality of it, but don't want to admit it. Yeah. And then that's really unhealthy.

That's the worst. Because then they wind up making all kinds of weird excuses and coming up with all kinds of justifications. Yeah. And to be able to just let go of that stuff and then move on to something else is so, it is something to be commended. Yeah. But sometimes the hook for that is, well, we train for street.

And that's a sport. and then to the degree that they can draw in some kind of military association helps them with that kind of con game. For sure. Like Krav Maga is what it is because of the adoption for the military. Absolutely. Israeli special forces, not just special forces, but Israeli specifically. That hook has gotten deep into a lot of communities.

And some of the... Our law enforcement in Montana, like they're... honestly training their officers in Kravmaga. Which I don't know much about, but I definitely enjoy it when you start going out of it. My problem with it is, okay, today's climate, police officers are already under a microscope, right? They do the right thing, and they're persecuted for it. So now you got a guy who's trained in Kravmaga, the Israeli special forces. That in and of itself is not going to go well.

court but then you take an officer to court and all the prosecuting attorney does is say well he was trained in crav maga and they google it and the first three things that come up is like you know kicking people in the groins breaking knees gouging people's eyeballs out like is that really that's not really defend it's tough to justify that with the motto of protect and serve for sure correct you're going to have a little bit of a divergent it goes both ways so i'll let matt tell the story of the Krobmaga guys who come to him. It's a great story. It's his story.

But on the flip side, more on Travis' story. Yeah. Okay, so you're not a special forces officer or a soldier, and you're not in a place where you can sort of indiscriminately hurt people. And it doesn't make sense that, you know, an illegal, legal perspective. but one of the, I won't say, I mean, one of the most, I don't know if it's intelligent, but one of the most compelling things, because I think like, if Jokua and I sat down and talk Jiu-Jitsu, I think we'd have some disagreements.

But that would be macro. I mean, that would be micro. The macro thing that I agreed with, one of the smartest things I ever thought he said, because someone asked him a question about justifying Jiu-Jitsu, because there are all these other people competing for attention. and his point was like whether you are you know in the military and like you're saying well you have other options yeah or you're a civilian Travis and I talked about this it's like really and oh let's talk about civilians because here we are gouging the eyes kicking the groin whatever knocking people's teeth out it's like

if you're not that already assumes that you're not connected like here I am across the table from Travis so I can hit him hard and I can kick him hard, but I can also leave. Yeah. The only time I can't leave if he's physically restraining me, right? He's not allowing me to leave. And I think about my daughter, right? And someone is not allowing her to do what she wants to. It's already jiu-jitsu, not by choice, by definition.

That's super important. Yeah, that is one of the best things Shaka said. Now that you brought that up, I'd forgotten that. I never heard of say that, but that's spot on. It's very intelligent. And it's a good way for like a civilian gym to say. sell it because even if my daughter were big and strong enough and she's not, it's like knock people's teeth in, it's like she shouldn't be doing that.

But if someone is like not letting her do what she needs to do, you're already connected. It's jujitsu. And what you said earlier about escalating force, pain often makes things worse. A, you can't rely on it because the person can be on a controlled substance or who knows what. And B, it just escalates the situation. but jujitsu you're controlling, physically controlling another body, not because you're going to be in pain, but because you're controlling the body.

And it's a completely different level of control, which should theoretically allow you to be able to control a situation without gouging someone's eye out or... Inflict less pain. Yeah, exactly. Well, that's... Perfect for law enforcement. Yeah, and that's...

I was just going to bring up Paul Sharp because, I mean, that's what's so great about, you know, having somebody like Paul who's got, you know, all these years of experience. in the line of duty. And it's about de-escalating. Like, that should be the first. It's not, let's make this worse.

Yeah. Let's back up. So. Yeah, that knee on the back of the head. I think what you were saying is, they want to comply. It hurts so bad. They're trying to adjust.

And it's like, you're resisting. It's like, no, I'm trying to not break my neck. And then it just goes up, right? Their reptilian brain is going to flip on at some point.

Survival, yeah. I can't talk to them because they don't. speak English or I don't speak passion or Arabic or whatever language or dialect we might be. And yeah, if they think I'm trying to kill them, they're probably going to freak out. Right. And I can't, you know, I can't blame them for that. I'd do exactly the same thing. And the same goes for the police.

I mean, so their job is to serve and protect. And what I always talk to like the law enforcement in our area is, look, I've got four teenagers. They're going to go to house parties. They're going to do what teenagers do. They're going to do what we all did as teenagers. I would like to... Hopefully not.

Well. I sat around and just read the encyclopedia. I don't know what you're talking about. Well, you were mostly in church like five days out of seven. But for the average person like John and I, we weren't as extreme as Matt, but I would like to think that they have more tools than, hey, don't do that or shooting me, my kid. Right? And if they knew Jiu-Jitsu, that would make me feel better. Because for one thing, just the confidence and the self-assuredness that comes with knowing that you can handle yourself if it does become confrontational often avoids the confrontation.

Because you don't have to puff your chest up. You don't have to get nervous and be afraid. Remember Chad? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, in Vegas now, right? Yeah, he's in Vegas now. He still teaches.

But he was one of my students. I think he was a purple belt. He's a black belt now. But back then he was a blue or purple belt. And he was very big. He was shorter than you, a little bit on the heavy side, had a lot of kids, family man. I still communicate with him all the time. He was a great guy.

But he wasn't a big athletic guy. But he was a blue or purple belt. And every time they'd have a situation in Portland PD where they were having trouble, there's some crazy guy who's naked in the store, nobody can cuff him, they'd call Chad. I'd probably skip the naked ones. But I mean, they'd these are big guys, big office. officers, you know? Yeah.

And, oh, let's pick up the phone and call Chad. And here comes this little guy that walks out there and handles a situation. It doesn't take that much. It doesn't hurt anybody. It doesn't hurt anybody. And, yeah. Yeah, there's a couple ways you can look at it, one of them being a life-saving tool as well. You know, people want to focus on the lethality of a lot of things.

It's like, well, to your point, adding things to the tool belt. Yeah, just give them options. Like Paul always says, like, handshake to hand grenade. There's this huge gradient. I think the analogy or the example, I should say, that he used is, okay, you're coming home and somebody's carrying your big screen TV down the street. Do you get your gun and shoot them? Like, does that deserve, is that the death penalty?

Like, they stole your TV? Is it one of the curved 3D ones? I mean, let's get specific here. Let's not get crazy. But the point is, like, there are certainly things that deserve extreme punishment. be a threat to the life, limb, or eyesight, though. But, like, you need to have another tool for somebody's taking my stuff. Yeah.

Now, taking your kids, taking your wife, like, that's a different level. But, okay, this guy's got something, he's walking down the sidewalk with my stuff. Can I get it back without killing him? If you know jujitsu, you can. And there's always the option of leave and execute your insurance policy and the odds of anything getting sideways is a zero. Right. And that's what, like what Frankl said, and he took it from,

But the cool thing is, is as a civilian, you can get up and leave. Right? Like, you don't have to stay. Police officers don't have that. Yeah. Right. Right. And I think they should all do jiu-jitsu.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Agreed. And also back to sort of like battle versus war thing we've been talking about. If it's already physical, the battle versus war analogy works. It's like, okay, you know, what do I want to win versus what do I need? to win but when it's when it's before it becomes physical and back to the original discussion it's like I won the battle which is I poked this guy's eyes up or I knocked his teeth in it's like but I

lost my house and I'm spending 10 years in jail that's the war you know it's like the whole Krav Maga thing and then Sistema it's like if it worked it doesn't but if it did it would still be non-ideal because you're like I beat the shit out of this guy for insulting me in a bar and there goes my house and my car and my family and I'm in jail it's ridiculous even in the fantasy world that it would work it's ridiculous right and that was my point originally with the court thing is like it doesn't work right but let's assume that it did you know for sake of argument it would do nothing but get everybody in trouble.

Yeah. Law enforcement, civilians, like it would be a disaster. Yeah, for law enforcement, it's like the city would be paying someone to $10 million.

Oh, the cascading effects. And beyond the monetary effect, the effect on the way that the populace views, the police. Riots. Consistly. Yeah.

And then on top of it, and this is always my litmus test, it's like, okay. I'm going to grab a water real quick. Yeah. So, because I've had counts, and we should let Matt talk about

some of his experiences where my brother and I were involved with like Wing Chung guys or Krav Maga guys or whatever. And it doesn't work, but the best thing that I always say when those guys come into the gym, I'm like, who was the last guy in the UFC that mentioned Krav Maga as one of his training methods? Has there ever been one? No.

No, but then you get into that feedback loop of no eye jabs, no groin strikes, no biolics. Right, right, right. But I'm okay with that because usually what they say is, well, but you're not allowed to. to punch people in the throat. And I said, that's cool. You're not. But if you can hit me here, you can hit me here, right?

I mean, this is harder to hit me here. If you're capable of that, that's okay, just go in there and knock everybody out. Yeah, that makes sense. But it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen. And the other thing, this now crosses over into women's self-defense,

which is also can be a bit of a problem. When you have people saying, like, rape defense. and they've got these scare tactics to get women to come into their gyms. And then they teach them to kick people in the groin. Everybody at this table has been defending their testicles since they were old enough to walk. Not always successfully. And the thing is, but the thing is, it's not easy.

Like you can't just easily attack somebody's groin. Like, we've been protecting that for years. It also doesn't always work. Correct. I've been kicked hard in the nuts. Me too. You know. Pain, you can't rely on pain.

And biting for sure, and I can say this with 100% authority, I've been bit before. I've been bit before in real confrontation. Didn't work. It worked to get him beat up more, but it didn't win him the fight. And guess what? You don't bite when you're on top. You bite out of desperation when you're on bottom. And that does nothing but to make the person on top.

And you just escalated because of the pain. Remind the person what they can do to you. Yeah. So it doesn't work. I'm going on record. Probably God does not work. I like it. And we know that some other martial arts don't work

because Matt usually calls me or my brother and says, hey, I got these guys down at the gym that want to spar. Did you ever hear that story? No, but I would like to. Okay. I had a couple Wing Chun guys come in one time. A smaller guy, actually he came in by himself first. He was a smaller guy.

And he was upset at some of the stuff he'd heard I said about Wing Chun and martial arts. And he wanted to fight. And I said, okay, you can fight. And he's like, well, I was a lot bigger than him. He's like, no, I mean, somebody more of my own size. And I was running a competition team at the time. And there was 20 guys this size behind me lining up with MMA gloves. to fight him, right?

Salivating. Yeah. And then he said, okay, no, no, not now. I'll come back. I'll come back. I'm like, okay, you're welcome to come back.

Never thought I'd see him again. And I got a call about a week later on my night off. I was at home that he had shown up with a big, huge dude. He brought his big guy. He brought his big guy. And they wanted to fight. So I get in the car.

I got tape like I'm ready to tape my hands. The good old days. Yeah. This was almost 20 years ago. Yeah. And I drive to the gym, and at the time, it took me probably 15 minutes to get to the gym. And by the time I got there, his brother had already beaten up the big guy. They were in a ring.

We had a boxing ring. 20 times. So he was taking him down, punching him a couple of times, slapping him, arm locked. And Rick was a blue belt? He was purple. Purple. Yeah, but you know what I would say. Yes.

Not a master. Yes. and he was taking turns. He would fight the little guy and then he would fight the big guy. You rest, I beat your friend of him. I love Ricky.

Yeah, he's the man. He's the man. And towards the end, then the smaller guy, the big guy had a great attitude. He was actually asking our schedule. Yeah. And the smaller guy was like,

well, you know, he's only taking me down because he doesn't want to stand up. And I was like, no, he's taking you down because he doesn't want to beat you up. and he doesn't want to punch you in the face. So I said, okay, here, hang on, let's do this.

Rick, don't take him down this time. Oh, no. And that lasted 15 seconds. And the guy was like, no, no, no, no. And so then he wanted to keep going. This wasn't Rick instigating. It wasn't me. It was him.

Yeah, it sounds self-driven for sure. Yeah, for sure. But denial is a deep thing, yeah. And he would try and crawl out of the ring. So Rick would get on top, and then he'd try and crawl out of the ring. And then we would restart, and they would try and knock Rick out. Rick would take him down. he would restart and then he would swing as hard as he could to try and knock him out which was

which was making me mad so finally i just told rick don't submit him anymore make him submit from punches and then that that was it that he was done then he left make him submit from punch but you know what else is so ironic and it shows how much cognitive distance these people have it's like we are street lethal but i crawled under the rope like pro wrestling so you can't hit me anymore like what the fuck are you talking about like it is or it isn't. Like I should like go down on the cement and then bounce your head off the fucking cement if it's your rules.

Yeah. But he's like no, my, I got my, it's like pro-rescent. Oh, I got my arm on the rope. Start over. Yeah. And let me try to knock you out. I mean, they're just crazy. They are crazy. I'll go back to Paul Sharp on that one. So obviously my daughter's big into judo now. And Paul's a black belt and judo as well. I didn't know that. Is that where he started? What's that? He started? He started with judo or he's also a JK Diego. Yeah.

The first generation by a large. All of them pretty much. But you'll get this same mentality that we're talking about right now with like the traditional martial arts guys where they'll be like, well, yeah, but there's a mat. It's soft. If it was in the street, it'd be hard. And Paul goes, whoa, no, no, no.

That mat's there for you, not for me. Because if we go outside and I throw you on your head, you're dead. I mean, I'm sure you could go find a gravel parking lot if you want to, but that's not going to go well for anybody. And it's always just, it's just silly arguments like that that make no rational sense. It's like, oh, but you guys train on mats. In the street, it's hard. It's like, yeah, we train on mats

because if we did this out there, there'd be consequences. And also, mats aren't that soft. No, we were watching. So this is, Travis was telling the story the other night, happened at Matt's gym, early on, the Cameron Earl story.

And I didn't know that whole story until later, but I was in Norris. Northern California. Camerror was, so Half Gracie was in Mountain View, basically. No, no, no, no, I take it back. He was...

Hollow Alto, right? No, no, no. He now is in Mountain View. Outside of Berkeley. Well, now, but he was like, yeah, Pleasant Hill area. But when there was nobody else in Northern California,

people gravitated him. So at a certain point, you had Dave Camryo, B.J. Pan, Camero, a lot of killers. Like, anyone outside of L.A., he had, like, the best guys. He didn't make them all.

Like, Dave Cameroo was already a gnarly judo guy. BJ had all this jujitsu from Hawaii, but they went to him because he was the guy. And he don't Gracie, who I really love. They had a Gracie tournament, which is like IBJF, no slamming, no nothing, no this, no heel hooks.

And the Gracie tournament was submission only, and you can slam. In other words, if he closes guard on me or triangles me, and I have the structure and the ability to pick him up off the mat, and he's dumb enough not to let go, I can slam him. And it was just, but it's safe because... Well, it should be avoidable because you should let go.

You just open your guard and play open guard. So Cameron Oll pulled closed guard on Healdon Gracie, who's like 6'4. He don't stood up, had him like... Wait, triangle them. No, no. Cameron trial, he don't. Right. He don't escape from the triangle.

Cameron then, when they went top to bottom. Anyway, it all worked out that Cameron was... Guard bought him. He don't picked him up. Six, four. So camera's about six feet in the air. And was hanging on and doing all this sports stuff, and they're on a nice mat.

It's a Gracie tournament. They have money, and, you know, it's a nice mat. And he just, it's like, you know, when you snap a towel to get the wrinkles out of it, he just dropped him. And it was like, knockout, just knocked out. I mean, he didn't spike him on his head

and break his neck. He just flat, like flat, but the last thing to hit is your head. It's the end of that whip. and he don't got up and walked off and camera was just knocked out. So it's like, that's on a map. On the sidewalk, he's dead. Yeah.

Brain damage it. At best case scenario. I have a question for you. What do you got? So some of the reality-based self-defense, which I'll use as an acronym, there are some guys that do that that are good. But very often it's the bullshit stuff that we're talking about.

And they'll make a big deal of what they call flinch response. Mm-hmm. And by contrast, I've talked to one of my black belts, Ray Price, who's a police officer and has been involved in police training, has told me, from his experience, when people are in high-stress situations, you can't really predict, and it might be totally different in the case of the military because of the selection process. But when they first go through the academy, they can't predict if the person's going to run, if the person's going to charge, if the person is going to freeze. Yes. and Ray makes a point of not wanting to make fun of how the person reacts in the beginning because it's not of choice. And then beyond that, the hope is to try and train them out of it.

And again, it might be totally different because the selection process that you guys go through by the time they get to that end point, they've already been weeded out probably. I've seen all three of those happen. You've seen all three of those? I've seen all three of those happen. And I've seen people change their behavior. I've seen people who have run, turn, and charge. Not on the same...

In the same moment. Okay. But I've also seen that person freeze. And I've had moments where I froze. And a lot of it for me was I was, I had too much shit I was trying to process. I was just totally failing in my decision-making process. But I have seen, I absolutely have seen people who are unwilling to move. I have seen people run.

And I've seen people do some of the most, like, boldish, quite frankly, nearly foolhardy charges at and it shifts. It's, uh, the way I describe it is everybody has got a cup. Like, all of us has a cup when it comes to stress or whatever is going to trigger those responses. And everybody's cup is unique and it all has a filter. And if you've been through more training, I think you can drain that cup faster. So it's not going to overflow.

Like overwhelming somebody who's never experienced aggression or violence of any kind, ridiculously simple. I mean, in the jitza world, probably get them in a. mount bottom they're going to freak out. But somebody 20 years into that, they're not going to freak out because they have tools. But I bet you there's probably still a way you could get them to freak out. It may just not be that.

I think with more exposure, your response is always going to be better because you either develop a better filter at the bottom or somehow you increase the capacity of your cup. But, I mean, I truly think having seen it and felt it in myself, I think there's a point for everybody where you're going to spill over. But the more tools that you have and the more experience that you have will help you avoid that point. Was there any way you could predict in advance how somebody was going to react? I mean, I think we really tried to in a lot of the training. So I administered a diving test.

And if you want to, I mean, water is such a great equalizer, especially if you put them under it with an apparatus that they're breathing through. But then I, as the instructor, get to control when they actually breathe, not their desire to do so. and you would see people because they would have a physiological response to the stress. And I would sit there and I'd be floating over the top of it. It's a one-to-one ratio with doctors all over the place because people pass out underwater.

And you'd watch it, me, you start being able to recognize the signs. People, they'd tense up. That would generally be the first one. And then the monkey paw would be the second one. They're trying to be calm, but their fingers are just getting totally gnarly. And then the last thing before they bolt is they'll plant their foot flat on the ground. because they want to rocket to the surface, which is actually incredibly dangerous

because they're on a breath hold, so the gases will expand. You'll get an air gas embolism, and shit's not going to go your way. You're going to get a chamber ride. It's just going to be a blast. And you learn to recognize those things, and we would teach them.

Like, that's why you can't plant your foot. You have to follow procedure. And you would see them realizing and adopting, okay, regardless of how I feel I need to follow procedure. And then the next time they were down there, you would introduce that much stress and they wouldn't have that physical response to it. So I'd ratchet it up a little bit more.

But there was always a point where I could ratchet it beyond what the human being can take, especially when it came to controlling their breathing. And that, I think, was a good indicator, but it's not perfect. Because some people couldn't tolerate it at all. If you took away their ability to breathe when they desired to do so, they would just freak out and come to the service. That, I would say would be a negative screening quality for sure. But again, I just don't think there's any perfect selection process or way to really forecast that.

but there's some good things that you can do. So through exposure, you're getting them to realize what's happening sooner. Is that what you say was happening? You're getting them maybe internally to recognize what's happening sooner, but the biggest thing that we're trying to get them to do is to focus on the procedure and what needs to be done and not on the end state. Just focus on the problem that's right in front of your face, and then you're going to get there eventually.

You have to rely on the procedures. And I look back, I was having a conversation with somebody recently. The entire job that I had was not complicated. I truly probably could train a monkey. And Adam and Rory and I are actually going to do this as a business. We pitched it last night. It's not a big deal. It's, uh...

I still think it's a bad idea. It's a bad idea. It's monkeys and suicide vests. I mean, what could go wrong? I'm not in... John, you left before they pitched this idea to me. I'm, you know, I'm probably going to like a 10% share. I thought the two Jews and a Gentile podcast was a better idea.

That's true. That was, we had three business ideas last night. None of them, by the way, were mine. but all were pitched to me. So it wasn't complex, and I look at everything. Everything that we did had a standard and had a procedure. Because when things get wild, if you don't have that procedure to fall back on, it can get a little weird upstairs,

and people will freeze or they could run or make the choice to charge ahead. But if you can ground everything in that procedure, it helped people navigate those things, because they can focus on the procedure, not how they're feeling. Because eventually at some point you realize overseas, if you're scared of dying, it doesn't make you any safer. It actually could be more dangerous because you would do or not do things that could put you in more risk because you are afraid, as opposed to just recognizing, yeah, like I'm terrified right now, but this is the job I need to do, and these are the steps that I need to do to successfully complete that.

Focus on those steps, and it's your day or it's not your day. That procedure saved people for sure. And they were taught. They were all taught procedures. Right. So it was just their ability in the moment to believe in it and do it or not believe in it and not do it. Correct. And recognize that even though they're panicked and even though they can't breathe when they want to,

that if they follow, these students would die in that water before they would deviate from seizure. They wouldn't necessarily successfully get the knot out, but I had multiple students just go over because they would rather die trying to do it right. Which, okay, so it's Mount Bottom. Yep. Freak out or attack the face, obviously. It's Mount Bottom. And what about when he's trying to punch you?

What about when he's trying to punch you? And it's like, okay, I'm totally calming on the Mount Bottom, and then you punch me and I do this. And then I'm dead. I'm really dead. Versus what I said at the end of camp there, I'd rather go down with Jiu-Jitsu than kind of fake my way out of it.

without you jitza. And so you're saying it's like, pass out because we're going to get you up and there's doctors, but pass out with what we taught you. Correct. It's focusing on what you're doing, not how are you doing.

Correct. And it's amazing. I mean, another question I get from the seal community, oh, do they make you hold your breath until you pass out? No, that's actually a failing criteria in every evolution except for one,

which is the 50 meter underwater swim. Why that one becomes a passing criteria, I have no idea. But if people think that it's easy, to go underwater where your entire body is screaming, just go eight feet up where you can see it. But I'm not going to do that. I'm going to sit here and work on this knot

until my world collapses in on me and pass out. That is not easy to do. It's probably one of the hardest things to do when error is right there. That's how much they are taught, or we are taught as a community, to believe in the procedure. And that completely applies to

how do we get to the threshold of a door? What do we do once we pass the threshold of the door? You don't need to think about anything other than what the next steps that you are that you need to do. Because the worst thing that could happen is have a very procedural-based structured approach declaring a structure, which is all based off of angles and muzzle awareness and making sure that your gun's not pointed to me

and then have somebody freak out, deviate from the procedure, and run into the middle of the room, or do something else. They'd be catastrophic for everybody. So you just have to focus on that procedure. Is it if you're following procedure and you pass out? Yep. Is that still a pass? And pool competence, they fail. because there is a procedure to come to the surface too.

If you can't make it, you put your thumb out to the side. You're requesting a free swimmer ascent. The instructor will come down. And as long as you kiss the deck of the pool, you start exhale and will bring you to the surface. So there is an escape mechanism as well. And you get four attempts at the test. So more often than not, you would see people go out on their fourth attempts because they just couldn't figure it out and they would rather die than put their thumb out

because they know they're going to get either rolled or drop from training. Gotcha. And that's the reason why it's not a pass. It's because you have an escape mechanism. The 50 meter underwater swim, you just swim. Yeah. Most useless test ever administered to anybody for anything. Okay.

On this mission, we have to go underwater for 50 meters. Why can't I just be on top of the water? Why can't I have a snorkel? Why can't I have a diving apparatus that gives me oxygen or air of some kind? Like, this is stupid. I'm not doing this. but it's that procedure. And I was talking about the last time I was on Joe's podcast,

I was talking to him about the biggest thing I think came from my military careers or the biggest tool that I took from that is just the ability to learn. And that requires you to get out of your own way, get out of, get away from your own bias. And when Travis tells me to do something, I'm like, okay, I just do it. I mean, and he'll say, okay, now do this. I'm like, okay. Or John will say, hey, you should grab his arm with both hand. I'm like, absolutely.

I don't listen to anything that John said. We talked about this in the lobby. He asked me, like, what do you want to ask him? And I said, I don't know about the specifics, but the thing that really interests me, because I teach for a living and I teach for a hobby, is like teaching and learning. Yep. Learning now. But it's like, I don't, I think it would be rare or difficult for someone to,

okay, let me take it back. It wouldn't be ideal. It's not that rare or that. difficult. It wouldn't be ideal for someone to achieve a really high level in one field and not be able to translate that. The reason I backed up because I think there are a lot

of jiu-jitsu competitors and maybe people like Tiger Woods and whoever else who don't really have any intellectual idea of what they're doing. They've just been kind of, you know, molded and crafted. Started early,

have some athletic gifts and don't really have any awareness. But for someone who started a little bit later and learned through fundamentals and processes rather than just yeah, their parents forcing them to do something, I think it would be hard or not ideal for that person not to be able to translate that. I'll go do things for a hobby and my teachers will be like, you're learning kind of quick. What's your secret? I'll be like doing what you say. Well, I'll be like, I imagine. I imagine

Imagine my favorite student in my class who says not my worst, the worst students in terms of I don't like being around them and they actually perform the worst are the ones who come to be on the first day of class and say, Professor, how do I get an A in your class? And I'm like, you're doomed.

You just assured that you will not, by the way. And I won't, I'm not saying that I remember their name and I'm going to like blacklist them. I'm just like, I know you're doomed because your attitude is wrong. And the ones who are like, what do I have to read tonight? And then the next day they're like,

what's the homework for tomorrow? And the next day is like, how do I meaningfully participate? After three classes, I'm like, you're probably going to get an A. Like, we have 100 classes left,

but you're probably going to be a day. Yeah. Because like you said, they're just like chunk in it. They're not like, what's happening six months from now. But, but,

and so I just tell the guys who teach me, I'm like, I'm just kind of imitating the students that I like. And it's like, tell me what to do today. I will do that. And then I'll come back and tell me what to you tomorrow and I'll do that.

Yeah, I'll let you as the instructor tell me when I should deviate from the last thing that you just told me how to do. And I won't, and I won't be like, I'm going to study with you for two hours and then watch YouTube for 18 hours to find out why you're wrong. You know, and be sleep deprived and wasting my time and money with you. Yep. Yeah. That was exactly what I was talking about.

It might takeaway for the seminars this year. Right. people who are focused on what they're doing at the moment. And not how they're doing in terms of, what am I going to get my bluebell? What am I going to get my purple belt? Just focus on what you're doing right down. Yeah.

And the rest will take care of itself. The easiest way I could get people to quit in buds was to get them to focus on how far they were from their goal. I heard you talk about this. So if you were to go to your students and be like, oh man, it's going to be nine years, 11 months, and 363 days until you get your black belt. And then the next day, it's going to be nine years, 11 months.

And you're going to tap 300,000 times. Yeah. And you just kept, and you just kept focusing on, this is how far away you are. That person is, they're gone before you get through that 300. Whereas the other student who just goes, hey, I'm just here for today. And they don't, because they know that the step that they need to accomplish is today. And they don't give two shits about the 10 years. They'll probably get there in seven or whatever reasonable.

number is. Yeah. Did you do that with everybody or did you pick out people that you wanted to do that with? I tried to make everyone quit. That was your job. That was my job. It wasn't my job to make people quit. It was my job to apply the curriculum, which is designed to suppress a human being to their

lowest point, apply stress, step back and watch what they do. And then play a little bit with what's between the ears and see how do you approach problems? Are you a nonlinear thinker? Are you nonlinear problem solver? Do you, how do you respond when you, obviously? obviously know that you just won, but I told you you lost because it's, I get to say that. And sometimes life gets to say that. That is awesome.

People become unhinged, though. They're like, you know what I mean? Because they're so linear in their thought process. I finished first. I should win. I'm like, yeah, but you lost. Go out in the ocean. They're just, ah, I'm like, take a little note.

We're going to be spending time together. And I just try to sow the seeds of doubt. For me, the biggest thing was make their world big. Get them to think about how far away they are from their goal. How long they're going to be cold. long they're going to be tired. And the people who had the opposite thought process, who the only thing that they were thinking were,

I'll stand here and tolerate you while you're in my face, and I'll get through this and I'll deal with what comes next. They're bonproof. And did you have people who would be like, that's awesome. I don't mind losing. I'm getting in the water. Yes.

And they're legit, right? They were. And I'm terrified of those people. Yeah. They would win or lose and still go suffer the punishment. That was the podcast when you and Joe, and Dudley was the Elkhunt, I think.

Yeah, just a couple ago, yeah. I just listened to it and that resonated with me because you were thinking, you were just... Keep your world small, was the thoughtful process ahead. You broke it down into days. Like, when you were in Buds, like, you were like, wins my next meal.

That was Hell Week. Yeah. Yeah, wins my next meal. Yep. And that's perfect. Like, it's, that's such a great way to live your life, too, where it's just like,

Just one day at a time. Yes, one day at a time. I'm just going to get by today, get by today, and then eventually. And with that one day at a time, you have these massive goals. Yeah. But you just lay out the breadcrumbs, and instead of thinking about how many you have to step on, you're like, oh, here's the breadcrum. And you just eat that, and you just eat that.

And you just eat that. Like my day-to-day buds was, I'm just going to see the sunrise tomorrow. But Matt's whiteboard, you and everyone who succeeded, didn't you say something persistent about the goal or insistent upon the goal? Like your goal didn't waver. Ever. But flexible about the tactics. For sure.

Six hours. Next meal. Well, you know how many, do you have any idea how many sacred tactics there are on the SEAL teams? No idea. Zero. Right.

Because it doesn't matter. Success is the only thing that matters. Right. And you have to be able to adapt to your battle space because what worked yesterday, it may not work tomorrow. And you can easily kill yourself by saying, well, worked yesterday. That's famous last words. My favorite question in the team is was why. Why do we do this? Why do we do this tactic? I always used to always use to ask the newer guys because there's a difference between understanding a tactic and understanding why you use a tactic and understanding of where it came from. Like these are the things we saw. Here's two options that you could use if you encounter this. That's why we do it. And if they can only say, well, this is the tactic that I have been taught. I'm like, okay, sit down. We need to talk. You need to have an understanding.

Best question for jiu-jitsu as well. Super awesome. And I am always, I mean, selfishly, it's not only selfish because it translates to my students, but like somewhat selfishly, I'm always trying to improve my own game. But as far as being a better teacher or a better coach, it's like I was pretty early decent at teaching how. That's easy. And people may or may not remember it, and they may or may not benefit from it.

But if you teach why, they're going to remember it. And even if they don't do the technique you're showing, they're going to benefit them. Yeah, rote memorization will get you only so far, and generally deep into trouble in my experience. I have one question for you that I'm curious about myself, but I don't want to ask you before we go. And we don't have to put it on the radio if you don't want to.

Now we're absolutely going to. I'm not hearing anyone. I'm curious, your experience as a veteran. Yep. how do we end eventually Afghanistan? Man, that's a tough one. I think it ties into a broader picture. I could ask this all the time.

Actually, Rory was asking me last night. He's like, hey, are we in a hundred-year war? I'm like, let me just tell you right now. My GPA was 2.2 in high school. I have zero education beyond that. I'm not the smartest tool in the shed. However, here's my answer. I can answer based off of what I have experienced firsthand

and what I've seen and the people that I've engaged with. Afghanistan is just a geographical problem set. Everybody who's gone there and has left, the problems will return. So I don't know how we get out of Afghanistan because I think more than anything, we're battling against an ideology. And that really upsets a lot of people

because they don't want to believe that their ideology, regardless of how pristine they think it may be, that there is just somebody somewhere who just violently did. disagrees with you. There's X and Y people, and there have been since the inception of people, and they're going to fight at some point. And they'll kill you for those ideas. They will kill you. And the beauty is almost nobody ever ever encounters that person that will actually do that.

My old job was to go to that person's town, in that person's country, into that person's house, into that person's bedroom, and remove that person from the chessboard. Thank God most people don't have to do that. But if you are around those people enough and you see the way that they behave and they have no care for quality of life or life in and of itself, I have watched them shoot more of their own people. Because if I'm between, if you're one of them and there's one of them behind you, they're definitely shooting through you. It's like, oh, that's a difference in morals, perhaps, and how I consider and view life. And that exists outside of Afghanistan, whether that was the root or, you know, the rocket taken off. the only way in my opinion that we can get, I mean, we would have to just leave,

but still be prepared to fight in small units. And I think that's what the future of warfare is going to look like. Smaller, I don't think the days of ever squaring off with tanks is going to happen ever again. It's just going to be small, surgical and tactical, whether it's a combination of electronics and stuff from overhead, but it's still going to be at some point in time

where you have to have boots on the ground. But I don't think there is an actual clear, pristine solution for Afghanistan. or the destruction of that ideology, because in the attempt to destroy the ideology, you're going to radicalize other people as well, because war is one of the most non-precise things I've ever seen, which is why it should be a measure of last resort. What a positive way to end this.

That was a great last question. It's not depressing. It's the reality of the world within. Yeah, I don't find it depressing. I mean, without it's honest. Having been there, it's like, yeah. As I expected. Yeah.

So what do you think about Eric Prince, his idea of having? I had him on the podcast. Did you? We were supposed to have three hours, and we ended up with an hour. We philosophically disagree on many things. I don't think that you should outsource warfare. I think if a country cannot fight the wars that they need to by manning their armed forces through appropriate channels, perhaps you should reconsider your foreign policy.

And if it's important enough, you know, change the way that you source people. I think it's an honor to be able to wear a flag on your uniform, the flag of the country that you represent. You should not be able to buy that because as soon as you are beholden to the coins in the chest, it no longer has the same meaning. And one of the big issues overseas, it's almost impossible. Just like I could be in Baghdad and I could be around 500 people, they all look largely the same to me. But to the Sunni and the Shia, they can probably point people out. Oh, this guy is not from our, you know what I mean? There's all these little differences.

And we look the exact same to them, whether it's armed forces or civilian contractor. So there's a huge ability for them to muddle the waters of who is there doing what and what they stand for. But it's just America to them. Correct. That's what I'm saying. Because they're not discerning when it comes to, well, that guy has, you know, he has a polo shirt on and khakis. It doesn't matter. They're not looking at the nuances and difference between,

and that's not like a normal uniform for a contract. It's just an example. Oftentimes they look very similar or impossible to distinguish, unless you obviously come from that world. So it's tough. Will he, it's a guess on your part. Will he come back on or was he wriggling at the end and trying to escape from the real questions?

I don't think he would have an issue coming back on. I think he now would be able to have a conversation where we don't agree because I did push back on him on a few things. you know, and there were some more things I wanted to talk to him about in depth. I think that he is used to being asked a certain series of questions and answering without having somebody push back on those ideas. You know, he talks about a little bit about, you know, the British Empire and how they used to do things. But there's a lot of things he leaves out, how, you know, they were basically taking complete control of the country,

mining their resources and mineral. Like, there's a lot of stuff that you could go into deeper that levers the argument against using that type of behavior. Yeah, the analogy breaks down. Like, are you saying America is a colonial power and we're going to colonize them? It's a totally different situation. Correct. So I think he would come back on. Okay.

I look forward to it. Yeah, I do too. Like I said, we could have talked for a couple more hours for sure. And at the end of the day, we could have agreed to disagree, which I'm totally, I could care less. I mean, I believe people should believe what they want. As long as it doesn't impact my life, like, okay, I'll stay out of yours. Other than the paid contractor part, though, it sounds like his strategy for Afghanistan sounded very similar to what you talked about, pulling out and just having small units there in case.

I think it's the only thing that's sustainable. It's, I mean, I don't, God, I can't imagine what it cost. The peak of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I had heard the number thrown around a billion dollars a day. I don't know if that's accurate. But you look at what it takes to have that many people there in the infrastructure and the number of people it takes to support that number of people. It just, it starts compounding on itself.

And I don't think it's sustainable over time. And like I said, if your enemy is not driving around in a tank, maybe there's a better, more efficient solution than taking a tank there. But that's just me. What the hell do I know? What else, gentlemen? You guys got anything else? Please feel free to edit this, but since we're piling on Rory.

Yes. So you carry most basically on a daily base. Yep. How old are your children? 16, 14, and 11. Okay, when they were a bit younger, like 6 and 4, would you leave a gun on the countertop in front of them? Never.

Yeah. I was at Rory's house. He did that. And he's like, oh, no, I told them. I'm like, you told your 4-year-old. Well, it might work with that 4-year-old or the 6-year-old or the 8-year-old. But if their house is anything like my house, friends, my kids have friends. and that argument erodes the second.

So I don't think Roy, he's not that, though. Well, 50% of gun owners do not own a safe. We will let it that part out. Roy's not that done, but what I mean is just the... That's psychotic. Because given the modern technology of a biometric safe, of which I have many in my house that I can put my finger on and it pops open in a half the second,

the argument of, well, I have to have my gun on me at all times for an armed intruder. I love that one because I say, what belt do you use when you shower? Do you panic scaring the shower? Are you more like a 4 o'clock guy? What do you go with? I don't take it in the bathroom. I'm like, well, then what happens if you get attacked in the bathroom?

The shotgun in the corner doesn't help. The gun you have in every room, it doesn't help. And again, they think because they have a gun, gun in house equals safe house. No. Okay, but no, I don't, I'm not sure that's really. You're just talking about gun safety. That's, that's, I would not advise that anybody ever do that.

Yeah, it was weird to me. I stayed with him once after a seminar. He said, oh, I don't know where I told him. It's like. You have to consider the cognitive capacity of the person that you're telling. They don't understand that this motion could have consequences for somebody down the block. There's no way that a four-year-old understands it. Well, one of my other black belts is a huge gun proponent and Second Amendment proponent.

But in talking to him a few months ago, he told me he was in favor of licensing. and did not think, and was also in favor of the government, making sure you had a safe. I think it should surprise me, but, yeah. Well, if you have to, it starts with a question, what are guns designed to do? The true intellectual, honest answer is they're designed to kill. People will say, oh, they're for protection.

Like, no, you can use them for protection, but they only work in one of two ways. The threat of them being used or they're actually used. That's really all, I mean, when a cop, pulls a gun and says put your hands up, you're putting your hands up because you don't want to get shot. Or you can get shot. I mean, that's basically the way that it works. So if it's designed to have lethal effects, and if you look at it, I don't know of anything else in our society that has the ability to reach down to the end of the block and take another person's life.

If it's designed for that, let's just treat it like that. I don't think it diminishes the right to have it at all. Let's just be honest about it. And if you can afford a gun, put it in a safe. So therefore, your neighbors who may be anti-second amendment are going to feel safer, too. and they're going to leave you alone because you know what a responsible gun owner doesn't generally irritate an anti-second amendment person it's the irresponsible look at my AK and Starbucks will I get my Carmel Machiaato that trips people out I loved your last tactical asshole it's my favorite page ever

I basically make fun of gun people Matt on the internet have you have you seen his open carry guys oh god he had three on him but we could only see his back I believe he was probably appendix carrying an ankle holster too but the butt crack was the best yeah he had a revolver down his ass crack. And both of his hands are full. I'm like, you're an idiot. If you're going to carry, if you're going to carry, you might as well keep your dominant hand. Like, if you have a grocery bag, put it, like people don't think about that though. How fat was he? Super. No, he was, he was fat, but he was retunned for sure. Yeah. But, but I believe he was in Texas. Yeah. But, but, I believe it was in Texas. Yeah. But, but, and his shirt was awesome too. His shirt on the back said, don't expect a

warning shot. I'm like, you're a fucking moron. You need to have that on the front. I'm like, let's just think about this from a logistical perspective. Nobody's going to walk behind you to read that and come back around in the front. Yeah. Yeah, people get weird around gun culture.

That's the crowd that's going to buy into the secret combat military martial art training system. If you Google right now or YouTube to stay on for crowd bug out, what you're going to see is a lot of fat people, a lot of people in weird like Russian camouflage, and then you're going to see 30 minutes, think of a 30 minute jujitsu class.

It's 30 minutes of some fat Russian guy doing shit that won't work while other people don't train. Oh, they just watch? Yeah. And then they become deadly. Man. It's the best of both worlds. If you're into that type of thing, I keep telling Travis, I think we should drill more.

I think it should be 90 minutes a day. I don't disagree. He keeps telling me class retention will be low. I mean, I still have to make a living. At the end of the day, like, I mean, I'm slightly joking, but I certainly enjoy the drills. That's where you figure out whether and it works. It works whether the way you apply it is working correctly. And longer drills are better.

Yeah. And you're in super good company from Hickson on down to everyone who's influenced by and but, but, uh, it's the most, it's the most productive part. It's the most rewarding part. It's the hardest part. You know, so to not. I think those things are generally tied. Yeah.

But you have essentially by definition, um, higher tolerances than most people. So I don't think so. What do? I'm not, I'm pretty sure just based on this, the test that you described. Yeah. Like I was, I'm petrified. I'm sitting over here thinking about the water. I hate you should not consider being a seal.

Right. I don't. So for the record, I have never once thought about joining the military. Yeah. No, and I don't mean, I don't mean globally. I don't mean there's not someone who has better musical ability than you. Yeah. I'm talking about like to sit there and be like, there's a lot of pressure here,

but I know it's going to benefit me in a long run, so I'm going to stay with it. People in this room, yes, running a gym with hundreds of students, maybe not. And not... And I say it jokingly. No, of course. And by the way, they all get enough. Yeah. Well, clearly, because my students are...

Gus wins the BJJ Kumete if we had one this weekend. Of all the jujitsu schools. I thought we came up with another name. That was for M.M.A. Correct. Oh, yeah, I believe that... We should leave this on the podcast. So last night when we left the restaurant, we went out and...

It began with Rory basically saying, if we had a kumete, I would obviously win. And I said, that's pretty much how the conversation started. And I corrected him. And I said if it was an MMA kumete, Matt Inman would win. Yes. Well, he actually then corrected himself. He's like, well, I was only asking the question.

And all of us said, absolutely not. That was 100% a statement. You said directly, if there was a kumatay, I'm going to win. Two things. He's a pathological liar. And he was probably completely stoned. I had fed him five gin and tonics too. He's like, I'm not drinking another one.

I would just slide it over and he's just mashing up the wines. But if there would have been a BJJ Kumete, Gus would have won. I agree. He's a savage. Gus is gnarly. So, and that's what I always tell people. It's like, well, Andy's gnarly too. Like, what, 18 months of training?

15. 15. So clearly what we're doing is working. We're drilling enough. Yeah, oh, no. And it's just he wants to drill 24-7. Right. And you...

I just like it. Of course. And that's wonderful. I'm not saying everybody has to like ice cream. I like ice cream. It's wonderful. Everybody that gets good in 15 months likes it. Yes.

Yeah. For sure. Requirement. But if you have a little less time and a little less intensity and a little less tolerance, it's got to be different. What we're doing is a sweet spot. Yeah. It's a sweet spot.

It's not water down at all, but it's not making people want to quit. He went to his first comp team last Sunday. So now he knows. He's like, oh, this is the class I'm supposed to go. He's like, why are you guys counting? What are these dumb points? That's not what we're doing. We're trying to kill each other.

You can do both. Travis is over like, what does that mean? You can do both. Yeah, it's different, though. Things I, well, I don't know, maybe my mindset is incorrect, but I just don't, I mean, I would sacrifice a position for points if I thought I was going to net me something greater in the end. I don't know if that's a good strategy, though. It's a good strategy to learn jujitsu. Maybe not the best strategy to win.

To compete in? To win your medal. Depending on the rule system. Yeah. I think you're going to do just fine in your division. Yeah. But I would say understand the rule set. Yeah.

Abu Dhabi, Ibi, JJ. Oh, you got to play in it for sure. But do not ever let it pollute or dilute. Correct. Jitsu. Yes. That makes sense. Yep.

That was kind of the point of my section today, too. It's like, let's remember what we're here for. Yeah. That's a better end. And nothing. And nothing. And, dude, you went like judo wrestling, but, you know, the nice thing about it is like, unless some. Could have been no.

could have been hoodie. I mean, can you? I never want to wear a hoodie again, by the way. That's one thing I've learned after the last 15 months. Like, oh, you're dead. Nice scarf. I'll kill you later. Right?

Oh, my God. But, but I mean, a hoodie, that's just a big handful. No, the best of the best of the best. The Choke people with is a t-shirt. Yeah, yeah. It's sharp, too. Oh, yeah. I almost think a zip-up hoodie would be better.

Just to make sure you get a little bit of friction on the way by just to twist the knife a bit. It's all good. I think a zip-up hoodie is the worst. Just those teeth would feel so bad. That's the worst. Yeah. But we all know Jiu-Jitsu doesn't actually work in the street. Carl Tanswell, rest in peace, put me to sleep in a hoodie.

He did. He's the only, I've gone to sleep twice in J-Jitsu. once was on the mat doing jih Tzu for real. Nogi, and my first black belt put me in a prurvy a necktie, which I had taught him like a week before, so I saw it coming a mile away, and I thought, this is a neck crank.

And I'll tab, I mean, I'm not proud, but I'm like, this is not a choke. And it's not an injurious neck crank, and then he was waking me up. Did you ask him if you won? Because it didn't hurt. It shouldn't hurt. It should kill you, right?

It didn't hurt. And I was in my mind thinking very, psychologically processes. And I'm like, okay, he's doing this thing. I showed it to him. I know what he's doing. It's really not choking me yet. And I was like,

and I still feel a little bit bad about that. But the thing was... And then Carl was not on the mat. It was in his living room. And I tapped. But I was watching it. And first of all, I couldn't quite believe it.

Which point were you watching? The Peruvian necktie? I was watching Carl. Oh, okay. So I was watching TB in a room about this size. And John had his back turn. facing a wall on a computer, returning an email or something. I watched Carl kind of walk him behind him and get behind, get the choke,

and then choke him and then pull him down on the chair. I thought he's going to let you go. I tapped. Yeah. And I was just kind of in shock, and then all of a sudden you're in convulsions on the ground. Why did you do that? There was no reason to choke him. And the funny part was he hadn't seen you.

since then until he ran into you in Athens. Remember? It was Montana camp. Or Montana camp, that's right. And he was a little bit nervous if you were going to still be mad at him. And then years later. Shocker, I wonder about it. But I, you know what? It's funny that you mentioned that because I thought about the letting go theme.

Carl because it wasn't until maybe hours before the camp or weeks or days or minutes that I made my decision. I was like, fuck Carl Townsville. I'm a fucking motherfucker. And then, but the beautiful thing about jujitsu and Carl's a beautiful human being and we're all friends and brothers and I just got there and I'm like, no, like I'm just going to have a good role with him because why would. I let

something that he did under the influence of two bottles of Estonian vodka a decade ago influenced my philosophy of Jiu-Jitsu today,

which is just be cool and roll with Carl. I hope this doesn't change your view on that, but he was sober when he choked you that that time.

It was the same trip but a day earlier. Yeah, it wasn't that night. The night he attacked you on the bed, you were hiding, that was totally different.

So in that case, but it doesn't influence me because what it was then is maybe I had only joined SBG probably six months before. Matt brought me to Ireland and England and Carl was probably jealous because that happens too. But whatever was vodka or jealousy or whatever, that was a temporary state of Carl which had nothing to do with me. and like how can I say for 10 years this is my jiu jitzu this is my philosophy this is what I believe

and then like preach that to all my students and then be like I'm gonna fuck him up man it's just I was like no you know Carl's a cool dude and I'm gonna lead by example and just roll with him so let me mention today in our class

I'm not sure how many people were listening to him I mean, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and I was going to, but then I, I thought. No, but, and you know what? She asked me this morning if she should mention. I was like, yeah. You feel like it's something you should talk about. It's cool, but, you know, it's like mentioning JKD, too. Not quite that old, but they'll be like really, really good purple belts.

We're like, who? What? What is that? I've never done anything that stupid. I don't know who that is, you know, so it's also a generational thing. Yeah. But you can see his jiu-jitsu reflected in Matt. And it's, and like I say.

And it's teaching. Yeah. And it's that, that structure. And the humor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I think a lot of people would get it this time because this time, what was it like two years ago? We were here last. It was kind of the last time most people saw Carl. There's more down, wasn't it? Was it two years ago? It was two years ago. And then you and I went to Manchester.

And that was the last time. So. But. we should have ended on my positive note now we you for that's a positive note it's a positive note to see you know matt here and teaching and dude and glin so like matt's here he's awesome glen poutage as i think in terms of you know matt's a pro fighter but in in terms of um coaching and and thinking about analytical j j jizu jitzu glen is at the top of the food chain and cold train cold train's

legit. I mean, Casey? Yeah, there's a legacy. Casey Jones. His black belts are awesome. From pro fighters to pro teachers to everything.

He had a good culture. Yeah, he had a great culture. Yeah. And the black belts that he has in the UK are the best guys. Yeah. You never want to meet. So that's positive.

Yeah. Thank you, everybody. This is going to close out my 2019. The next episode is going to come at you live in 2020. I'm going to take a little bit of time off. and enjoy as much time as humanly possible with my family. And I hope everybody is doing exactly the same and not listening to podcasts and doing cool shit with their family.

Expect some new things in 2020. I am revamping the apparel and going to try to turn it into something a little bit broader and deeper than it currently is. So there's going to be some new colors, some new designs, maybe some new offerings. I don't know. It's going to get crazy.

It's going to get wild. We're going to get through it together. So all I can say is thank you to everybody who has been listening throughout 2019 and I guess 2018 as well. I'm amazed at the feedback that I get and I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate people dedicating their time to actually listening to a barely functioning idiot with a microphone in front of them. And that would be me, not you, talking about me. And that's all. Hope everybody has great holidays. Merry Christmas.

Happy New Year. however you want to phrase it, and I'll see you in 2020.