Cleared Hot - Powered By BRCC - Cleared Hot Episode 28 - Dakota Meyer

Episode Date: January 29, 2018

Dakota Meyer is a husband, father, Marine, and one of 11 living Medal of Honor recipients from the war in Afghanistan. He enlisted in the Marine Corps after high school, served from 2006-2010, and received the highest and most prestigious military decoration that can be awarded for his actions on September 8th, 2009. He hosts his own Podcast, Owning It With Dakota Meyer, which can be found in Itunes. This conversation was simultaneously recorded for his podcast, and my own. https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/owning-it-with-dakota-meyer/id1312660781

Episode 28, and this one is a first for me for the podcast. I'm out here in Las Vegas attending the Shot Show, which is essentially a tactical convention. Very similar to the ATA show that I was able to go with with Dudley, focusing around archery. This one is more around hunting and shooting. It's an interesting crowd to say the least. But while I was out here, an individual reached out to me a few weeks ago, named Decoucée. Dakota Meyer. And for those of you unfamiliar with Dakota Meyer, he is a, was a United States Marine, and is one of the few living Medal of Honor recipients from either the war in Iraq or the war in Afghanistan.

And we were trying to figure out a way to link up to have a conversation face-to-face instead of doing it remotely. We both realized that we were going to be out here at the shot show. So we decided to sit down and we were finally able to link up and be able to do that. He has a podcast also called Owning It with Dakota Meyer. And obviously you're listening to this podcast, so you know what mine is called. But we did one recording, and we're going to share it between the two. So he actually asked me a few questions to start off with, and then I asked him some towards the middle. And I'd say we spent an equal amount of time talking about myself and him talking about himself.

And it was a very interesting conversation. I'm not going to take anything. or tip my hand at all as to what we discussed. But I'll just say that I was very surprised in how he approached, or not how he approached, in his thoughts and the impact of receiving the Medal of Honor. For those of you not in the U.S. that might be listened to this, the Medal of Honor is the highest award

that can be bestowed upon a military member. Most often, the individual does not survive the event when they receive this award. It's given posthumously, but not in this case. And we didn't really talk about the event of the day or the events of that particular day in which he was awarded this medal. So I'm going to read this citation right now

just so there's a little bit of context, and I think it'll make sense why we didn't necessarily talk about the specifics a little bit later on. So his Medal of Honor citation reads, The President of the United States in the name of Congress takes pleasure in presenting the Medal of Honor to Corporal Dakota L. Meyer, United States Marine Corps. For service, as set forth in the following citation,

for conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the repeated risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty, as a member of Marine Embedded Training Team 2-TAC-8, Regional Corps Advisory Command 3-TAC-7, in KUNAR Province, Afghanistan on 8 September 2009. a lot of military jargon and acronyms in there. Kuhner is up in the northeast of Afghanistan. He was attached to a mobile training team. I would want to say advise and assist, but I don't know if that's exactly the right word, but they were paired with Afghan fighting forces. When the fort elements of his combat team began to be hit by intense fire from roughly 50 Taliban insurgents dug in and concealed on the slopes above Gangesgall village,

Corporal Meyer mounted a gun truck, enlisted a fellow Marine to drive, and raced to attack the ambushers, and aid the trapped Marines and Afghan soldiers. During a six-hour firefight, Corporal Meyer single-handedly turned the tide of the battle, saved 36 Marines and soldiers, and recovered the bodies of his fallen brothers. Four separate times he fought the kilometer up into the heart of the deadly U-shaped ambush. During the fight, he killed at least eight Taliban personnel, evacuated 12 friendly wounded, and provided cover for another 24 Marines and soldiers to escape likely death at the hands of a numerically superior and determined foe. On his first foray, his lone vehicle drew machine gun, mortar, rocket grenade, and small arms fire, while he rescued five wounded soldiers. His second attack disrupted the enemy's ambush, and he evacuated four more Marines,

switching to another gun truck, because his was too damaged, they again sped in for a third time, and as turret gunner killed several Taliban attackers at point-blank range and suppressed enemy fire so 24 Marines and soldiers could break out. Despite being wounded, he made a fourth attack with three others to search for missing team members. Nearly surrounded and under heavy fire, he dismounted the vehicle and searched house-to-house to recover the bodies of his fallen team members. By his extraordinary heroism, presence of mind amidst chaos and death, An unselfish devotion to his comrades in the face of great danger, Corporal Meyer reflected great credit upon himself

and upheld the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and United States Naval Service. And I don't know what else can be said beyond that. So here we go. Episode 28. Hey, company, west of the smoke. I'm looking at danger close now. Hey, everyone. I'm Dakota Meyer. You're listening to Ony it, and I'm here. Actually, me and Knives are out here at Shot Show.

We're hanging out a pretty crazy, incredible crazy place. We had a crazy day to day, right? First time in Vegas. Yeah, Knives. First time in Vegas? Big deal. Big deal, Knives. I dig it?

Right? And so we are set up here at the Venetian, beautiful place. And I want to thank Mr. Adelson for hooking us up with the beautiful place stay. And we have a great guest on. I've been trying to get this on. I've been watching this guy for a long fucking time. Which is a mistake. We can start with that.

How crazy is. So we're here with Andy. Stump. Yeah. It's, listen, it's P-F, P-F, not PH, not phone book, right? Let him know. It's Andy Stumpf. Correct.

Now, I have to emphasize more on it because they said they can't hear it over the Kentucky. A little draw. A little draw. A little draw. But, no, man, hey, I appreciate you coming home. Yeah, man. Thanks for having the time. No, it's awesome.

It's awesome. He's got a badass hat on. I got to tell you something right now. For you all, we can see the video on this. It's got a badass hat on. I'll get you one. We got you covered. I usually don't look at hats and say, hey, I need.

one. I'm like, god, usually I look at people's hats and I'm like, that's a shit hat, right? And man, that's a badass hat. I'll get you one. It's, uh, I don't, I'm a believer that I've never had a unique idea in my entire life. I just do things that smart people recommend. And a funny of mine was like, hey man, you should make a hat for your podcast. And it's like, let's make a hat for the podcast. That's badass. So what, um, so what are you doing out here? I've actually come to shot a few times throughout the years. Obviously, coming from the military background, there was reasons to come out for that. Although while I was in the military, I didn't ever come out for shot. I think I was just a little bit too busy working. But post-military, I got linked up

with some brands. I always loved jumping, skydiving. I never based jumping on the military. It was expressly prohibited. Yeah, yeah. Follow the letter of the law on that one. But when I got out, I was able to pursue it the way that I wanted to. And in that pursuit, I was introduced to some brands. One of them was 511 Tactical, which is a footwear and apparel brand, which Most people would associate, I think, with law enforcement first responder type stuff. They actually make quite a bit of cool stuff and started a relationship with them that began very slow and is now an ambassador slash consultant type deal. And they asked me to come out for this type of event and here we are, man. And they actually, I mean, 5-11 is really unique, right?

I mean, you know, I just went out there and Tom Davin, right? A great guy. He was a Marine. Yep. And I went out there and I didn't know this when I went to their facility, but they actually showed us that. that, you know, 5-11 was actually started by rock climber. Yeah, Royal Robbins. The story, it's incredible. It's 5-11, if you strip away the tactical,

is the rating difficulty of a climb, a traditional climb. And at the time, that was the toughest. Things have progressed since then. I think they're at like 515D now. Yeah. So maybe not a great foresight in the actual name. But yeah, it draws its origins from a set of pants that a guy made to handle, I think it was the Yosemite Valley.

Yeah. And then they got a pair of pants into the FBI Academy. And I think that was what really, that was the flick of the Bick lighter that built it into the company it is today. It's a cool company. So you came out to the Orange County area and saw the HQ. I did. And Tom's done a great job of rebranding it too. Yeah.

He's came in and done a great job of just, you know, of showing that it's more than just law enforcement and military, right? I mean, that's what I used to associate it with, you know, of just, I mean, you look at that guy and you're like, yeah, he's military. Yeah. He's wearing 511. Yep. We used to call them Shoot Me First Pants. If you know what you're looking for it, you look like a neon sign flashing. People think that they're doing the right thing and it's, I mean, I guess it's cool if you have 16 pockets and you can always get to your concealed weapon. Put snacks in it.

Sure. Or lose things. What's what I do? Like, you do this number all day long. But now there's stuff, like their stuff is, it's cool. And the tech's on the inside, which is to me the sign of a brand hit it in the right direction. Yeah. You can wear your tech on the outside if you want to. In my opinion, personal. opinion it makes you an asshole. I am with you like the guy that carries the 1911 on his hip. Yeah, it's covered up, you know? So they're heading the right direction and I actually, one litmus test for me in my life, I mean, we all have limited time and bandwidth. I refuse to modify the things that I do. So the brands that I work with organically show up and I've been, I'm just wear their stuff all the time and it's awesome. And I've never been in a law enforcement

dude ever. I just, the stuff, it's cool. No, that's awesome, man. So you're in a Navy SEAL. What team were you with? I was a SEAL. I retired. I do easy things now. I'm no longer driven or hungry or yeah. I don't know if I ever was but. Well you had to be. Yeah, I was I started on the West Coast. I started a team five pre-9-11. Shortly after 9-11 I screened and went to East Coast SEAL team. From there came back to a tour as a Buds instructor, which I think probably was I wasn't looking forward to that tour, but it was probably one of the most rewarding tours that I had. I loved, I found out in that period of time, the 18 months that I was there, that I really loved teaching. And it was cool once you realize these young kids, like, there's almost two types of instructor.

There was the guy who was like, I'm going to be the dude with the chip on the shoulder. And he would yell, yell, yell, yell, yell. I think I did 18 months without ever raising my voice and ended up working with a ton of the guys that I ended up putting through training. But if you look at those young kids and recognize that you have to work with them at some point and you got them at a mold. valuable place in their life. It's so rewarding to teach them and then see them later on in their career super successful and it's like, that's what I'm talking

about. Yeah, I'm with you. I mean, you know, I always look at the leaders that were the most impactful on me and it was never the ones that were yelling at me. You know, it was never Well, if you talk quiet, it forces them to listen. It does. If you yell at me I'm like, my wife could tell you this. If you yell at me, I'm like, huh?

What's you saying? In one ear and out the other. Good idea. Yeah. Good idea. I should learn that. Yeah, it doesn't always work. But yes, I did the Buds instructor tour, and then I picked up a commission at the 12-year mark, so I was enlisted for the first five officer for the, I'm sorry, enlisted for the first 12 officer for the last five, went to SEAL Team 3,

did my last appointment with them in 2010, and then retired, medically retired as I was the operations officer at the training detachment that manages all the training for the West Coast SEAL teams. That's badass, man. So you got out 2010, right? Yeah, last day of June. 2013 last day of June 2013 you got out then I did yeah almost five years wow it's been a piece it's been a minute how was it so how was it getting out so so tell me how it was I was gonna ask you the same question because I have a feeling we have a similar

experience you know I I really struggled for about 18 months yeah and I struggled with what got me was the news you know in that time period 2000 and 13, right? Like, I knew a lot of the guys who put a lot of sweat equity and blood equity into like Fallujah and Missouille. And then right when I got out, all of that was unraveling. So I would sit in front of the TV, you know, and it's hard to describe. And I know that you, you know what I'm talking about, but you hang up a uniform one day, right? And it doesn't mean you're a different person.

It's just you get different clothes and it was tough. It's a different. It's different camouflage. It is. You turn into your civilian camouflage. Yeah. And I, you know, it's, I look back. I always tried to separate, I wouldn't say my sense of self-worth,

but I tried to separate myself from my occupation. But there was a little bit of a degree of overlap, and there was some sense of, like, is that all I'm ever going to be? Like, that's what I've done for my entire adult life. That identity. It's that identity. It was tough. So I struggled with that a little bit. Like I said, I always try to maintain objective,

but if I'm being totally honest, I think everybody, it's driven from ego, right? so everybody's ego has a little bit to do with that. So it was a little tie to that. And then watching the news and realizing, I can't do anything about it anymore. And it just, I, I didn't have a sense of purpose, I guess.

And then a buddy of mine recommended doing some fundraising for, to support the families. And literally it kind of had, it wasn't like a light bulb moment, but I was like, wait a minute. Okay, my time doing this stuff is over. Even if I was given a choice, I would want to be shoulder to shoulder with the guys, right?

Oh, 100%. But I can't. But if I could support the families and I look back and I see my own family with three young kids and a wife that was with me through all of this, like, yeah, that did help when I knew that there was a backstop. So I can help the warfighter do their job by helping the families. And that to me was it was an important turning point in my post-military life. It took me a minute to get there, though. About 18 months, I really struggled with like, who am I? I have deep conversations with myself.

in the mirror. Yeah. Who are you looking at me, right? Yeah. And what am I going to do next? And what is next? I mean, the military is great for a lot of things, a structure and discipline.

And there's a lot of room for personal growth, which people, I don't think, realize. And I should say, in the community that I came from, there was a lot of room for personal growth. I don't have any experience with conventional, coming up in a conventional military pedigree. And to be honest, and I've said this, and I try to say it every time,

I actually have, I think the conventional forces have a harder job. than what I had. Because my job was very targeted. I knew what I was going to do. I could train for it. And then I'd be overseas, and I would see these guys

who were getting forced to the limit of their capability with gear that was not up to the task that they weren't necessarily trained for, but they needed a body to do it. And I would look at the difficulty and see the geometry of all the things that were happening. And it was tough, man. Like those conventional forces,

like, that's no joke. Like, it's harder. It's actually harder than doing what I did. It might have been a harder pipeline to get to what I did. Yeah. But the job at occupation itself... Yeah, you know as a conventional force guy, right? Like, I'll be honest.

Like, I always used to get frustrated at, you know, at you guys because... Was it the hair? Well, I mean, I think it was actually the incredible good looks. Yeah. It's a, you know, they issue those. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, you know, it was frustrating for a guy, you know,

a guy on the ground of, you know, you take, I'm four U.S. guys and 80 Afghans up there, you know, and we have to, it's not just, we don't just go hit a target. I mean, we have to, we have to maintain so much of the political piece of it. Well, because you're living there full time. Because I have to live there, right? And like, you know, you guys come in and it's like, you know, you do the hit and boom, you're gone. You're gone. Disrupting where you have to live, and most of the time, you have to handle the consequences. And I have to handle the shit that you all come shit where I eat you know what I'm saying I mean we try not to do necessarily that yeah but you know what I'm saying like I know exactly what you're saying I mean it doesn't like I'm not saying you guys are

doing anything bad yeah I mean you're coming hitting this target but I mean the next morning I mean I can remember times of getting up yeah and and the people at our front gate these guys come in and they they come and they you know at night and and we're kind of like I don't know how many times I sit there and I'm like I mean you all don't tell us yeah you know you all just come in and And it's kind of, you know, and it's an interesting balance. It is. But, I mean, I understand, like, you got, and you know, the other thing that I think that is forgotten so much.

And I don't know, look, and I, you know, nothing against, you know, the spec ops community or anything. But, you know, you guys always have the assets. I mean, you'd be surprised. Not always, but we get it more often than not. But what I'm saying, though, is, is like, if you guys need them, yeah. You might not have them all the time. But if you guys are in the shit, they're coming.

Correct. You know what I mean? I'm not saying that you go. in everywhere with assets but I'm saying like if you guys hit the shit assets are coming if you hit the red help me button like the earth stops spinning for a little bit until they can move things in place it does and you know and you guys got priority over everybody and uh you know actually I don't know if they do I think we might have it in planning but like listening to the radios overseas and you hear people get into ticks I mean I think

they push assets no I know I so in my battle yeah the reason that we didn't get air support that day was because the priority there was a tick with special gops. It was there. They were sucking it. And so they, you know, they're the priority on that. So that was one of the big issues. But I'm just saying, you know, so it's kind of like, you know, it was always

frustrating to see like, you know, you guys, you know, not only, it's like we should get the assets because you guys got better training. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know what I mean? It's like, you see what I'm saying? Like, you know, it's kind of a frustrating deal. But, you know, it's always, it is always interesting to see the different dynamics of, you know, like how you all see the battle space.

Yeah. Because you guys just come in. I mean, when, you know, the thing. is, is, you know, you guys are, if you guys get on a bird, I mean, shit's hitting a fan. Like, I mean, you're going to get busy. Us, you know, most of the time, we're patrolling and trying to keep the peace, you know? Yeah, it's interesting. I had a, I experienced, I would say, a little bit of what you were living through.

Like in 2010, the East Coast team I was at was in the J-Soc realm. Yeah. And that realm was, get on the helicopter, operate at nighttime, unless there was a very compelling reason to operate in the daytime. and we'd be in and out. And we would see the secondary and tertiary effects. Because we go to Iraq and these guys keep coming to the... It's like you keep saying.

Yeah, because we're in and out, right? You just tell us that you'll tell us when you come and then, you know, like we're trying to set these deals up. Like, you don't know, no, no, we'll come to you before we come to anything. We don't know those guys. Yeah, we don't know those guys. You're kidding me. How do you not know? You're the mayor.

Did you know everything? Yeah. So we did that. And then at Team 3 back in, you know, fast forward to 2010 after my time at the other command, it's, I, we were living, I mean, I lived for nine months in Zubul province, and we were doing much more of the key leader engagement stuff, and we would have to, and so we would see that as well, so because we would go out and operate and come back, and they would knock on our door. Yeah, yeah.

And we were partner forced up, whereas it was, I think it was a two to one at that point, or, so I get what you're saying, and so even in, even in spec ops, like the constraints and the, I would say a lot of it is, best words, bullshit you have to deal with. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I know you guys were forced-fetted. Yeah, but it trickles in. I mean, like, the conventional SEAL team role changed from a very kinetic direct action mission set to a key leader. And, like, so everybody started feeling that pain except for a little small community over here.

There's two groups that didn't ever feel it. And they shouldn't have to. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. They should. Yeah. But it's, it is those guys at those commands. I tell you what, when you're there operating, you're not thinking about the same. secondary and tertiary effects.

And it would be, you'd be a better operator and it would change your behavior, in my opinion, if you did spend more time thinking about this thing. Because we could ruin eight months worth of your work. Because guess what? And most people would be surprised to hear this. Military intelligence is not always accurate. I've been to some houses where the guy was not there and the neighbor was just pissed and went and reported on his buddy and, like, it causes problems.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was really over that he took... A goat, yeah, 10 years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or generational, because that's another thing people don't understand. An affront to a family, oh, that's cool if it's 30 years down the road. Payback's still coming. Yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah, they don't forget. No. I'll tell you a funny story about military intelligence. So, like I said, I was on an Afghan post. You were in Afghanistan, right? Yeah, Kuna province. Up in the northeast. Right above Assadabad.

Yep, J-bad and Abad up there. So I was right above Asadabad and the place called Asmar. So, Bostick, what I'll tell you to? Koonar is no joke, man. Dude, Koonar? Yeah. You know, Fob Bostick was just north of us, so we were between Asmar and Bostick. And I'll never forget, man.

So, like, our base was guarded by the Afghan security forces, right? So they're just, I don't even know how, like, thinking back, I don't even know how the hell I even went to sleep, knowing that those guys were guarding it. I don't know how many NDs. Ignorance is bliss. Yeah, right. Like, I guess it was like, well, I guess, you know. But, you know, I'll never forget one day. We're sitting on base, and we'd been starting getting Intel that, you know, we're going to get over RAM.

And so one day at the cop, you know, they're sitting in the COC and people start freaking out. They're like, we hear them. We hear over ICOM, you know, they're giving grids that they're located here, here, here, and they start plotting it. And it's around every bay, all the way around the base. Oh, wow. And we're like, holy shit, right? So we're, I mean, I'm running around like we're, you know, we're, it's on. It's on.

Like, it's like, well, but I'm, I knew something was up because I'm looking around. I don't see them. And, uh, everybody's getting their shit on. Everybody's freaking out. Come to find out. Uh, because they're like, they're saying they're moving weapons in and this and that. And, uh, we're like, holy shit, man. And next thing you know, we look around and the Afghan security guards were, uh, just re, re,

putting weapon systems in their post, new weapon systems in their post. So it was our own guys, and they were listening to our own guys, and that was the intelligence that we had. It was the guys that were guarding our base because they used the icons. Yeah, they're just listening to their buddies, so we're 20 feet away. Yeah, God, how... If you haven't lived it, it's not going to be as funny as it is for you or I, but yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about.

You're like, okay, this is what I do for living professionally. Yeah. All right. Oh, yeah, like, but you know, that's the times it questions you, like, this is what I go do, hits off. This is what I go. This is what I live and die off of. No, it's all good, though.

You know, you know, look, they, you know, hey, it is what it is. It's all good. It's all good. It was an interesting experience. Yeah, it was interesting. Yeah. But we survived. Yes.

For better or for worse. Yeah, yeah. That's still to be decided. I have to agree. Yes, I'm not sure where I'd net out on that one yet. But, you know, we're trying. Yeah, moving forward, man, for sure. So what do you do now?

It's actually my least favorite question because I actually don't have a good answer. I'm at a phase in my life where I'm just taking opportunities where they come up. When I was really young, I knew what I wanted to do, and it wasn't until more towards the tail end of me not being able to do that job anymore that I realized, all right, I need to figure out what is next.

I know I don't want to work in an office space. I just would not fit well in that realm. So I knew I loved jumping, So I spent about half of my year doing the professional skydiver and base jumper thing. About another third of the year doing this type of stuff, consulting, working with the brands. Been hit up quite a bit recently to do public speaking, which I've been doing for a couple years. Again, never any desire to do that. And a buddy reached out one day, hey, come speak in my company.

Like, okay, a guy who was sitting in the audience said, hey, come, you know what I mean? That's just snowballs like that? So you would ask him the question that he didn't like asking him. He doesn't like it. Because I don't have a great answer. Yeah, I mean, what's a great answer, though? Like, oh, I mean, do you think would it be a better answer? Like, if, oh, yeah, so I go nine to five, McDonald's.

I mean, at least I get free chow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I like the fact that I don't have an answer, and I like the fact that it's on me. Then, all my income is 1099. Yeah. And I describe it to people as it's the freest prison you'll ever be in. Yeah. I get to move the walls.

And if I don't like the warden, I can go have to talk with them any time I want to. But if it gets too tight, that means good. Light a fire on your ass and go out there. So I'm just, like I said, it's like I love teaching. Public speaking to me is just, that's all it is teaching. I have some simple rules. One, I never talk about myself. I never tell war stories because if you want to go watch, you get entertained, go watch a movie.

I feel obligated to take the lessons that I learn from amazing people and pass them on to make a difference in the country. And it's a great medium. And people will listen because of the military background. Otherwise, I'd just be some random dude up there talking. I try to tread very lightly on my military time and never, never lead with it, but it helps in those environments because they will listen. I mean, I think it's important. Like, I'm going to tell you, man, I think that, look, no matter what,

I mean, it's that military time is what gave you the skills that separates you from them. It is. It is really all it is. I mean, it's the difference between you and them sitting. I mean, that's the only thing that separates. That's the only thing that you have that they want. You know what skillsets you got, because they could. never be you know that they're never going to get that right i mean that's what you provide them

and educate them is the lessons that you learned in those times you know what i mean and what's crazy well maybe it's not crazy what i have found is that it's not necessarily even teaching them new lessons it's public speaking is like marriage counseling if you haven't gone you should go because it's i hope it's more effective yeah a husband and a wife can sit there right and say the same shit at each other for 10 years but if you put that neutral third party in the middle that repeats something that one of those two said. The other one, oh. So, like, I get it now.

Like, teamwork. I don't have a unique definition for teamwork. It's the same as it is in the NFL. We did it differently. That's all. It was the application. Stakes were a little higher. Yeah, but same principles.

Yeah. So when I get up there and talk to an organization, most of them have advanced business degrees. And, like, they know what teamwork is. I just explain it how we implemented it. And they go, oh, like, yeah, you knew this. You just fail in the execution. not in the application, not the understanding.

And it's just, it's cool. It's one of the things I like to do because you see the light bulb come on. It's rewarding. And it is rewarding. And I do, I think at the end of the day, I like what I'm able to do because it helps me, if I have to pick one goal for myself, I just want to make a difference. And I want to make the world better than the world that I've worn into. And my kids, I want them to be better people than I am.

And the only way you can do that is through leadership. and that is the message that I just try to reinforce the people. Which is its mentality. Leadership is about mentality, not your position. You know damn well it's not about rank. No, man. Or degrees. Yeah.

Rank is not going to get you to risk your life. No. And have, you know, but inspiration will. Yeah. Respect will. Oh, yeah. You know, and those are the lessons that I was, I mean, I'm a very, the unique thing about me, I consider myself a very average person.

Like I give my military career a C across the board. What's unique about me was the people I was surrounded by. Oh, yeah. And the stuff they taught me. My parents did a great job, I think, with a moral compass. And then I got thrown to the wolves voluntarily. Yeah, yeah. I saw the dotted line.

But those wolves, you know, the sharp teeth, they teach lessons. Well, you could have chose the sheep, but you chose the wolves. I mean, you know, you still got thrown there. Yeah. And it's, but those sharp teeth, man, they teach the lessons that last a lifetime. And it really, like you said, there's not that much separation. From what I've seen with my own eyes, the people that succeed and the people that succeed and the people that fail, there's not that much separation between the two.

They both generally have the same amount of knowledge. It's between the ears, though. I think it's in the chest. The heart of matter? The heart. I'll take somebody with heart over somebody with skill and brains. Unless it's brain surgery. Then I want somebody with skill and brains.

And this is the Navy SEAL that comes out of it. Here's the Navy SEAL. I'm just thinking, I'm like, all right, well, maybe my mechanic needs to know. two, some stuff. No, I hear you. But at the end of the day, when things go bad, even in those examples, a brain surgeon or mechanic,

it's the heart that's going to pull you through. That gets you to keep going when things aren't going your way, so you can see it through and be successful. It is. It is, you know, and it's just a difference of people who quit and who don't. Yeah. That was also interesting as a Bud's instructor.

It was just cool to see the other side of the coin, because as a student, they're like, what are we doing this for? I want to know. I mean, so what is it? So what does it like to be on the instructor side of it? There's a picture. I forget where I saw this, but it's a Bud's instructor standing there with a cup of coffee

with a water hose pouring it down a dude's face who's doing flutter kicks. And that experience is more fun than being the dude who's having the water port on his face. So from a pain position, it was much more pleasurable. But the cool thing was, is that you got to spend time with people who threw the talent. As a student, when somebody quits, they're just gone. Like, where's Bob? Bob's gone. You never see Bob for the rest of your life.

As an instructor, they can do some paperwork. I mean, it really is. All you got to do is raise your hand and say, I quit. Ring a bell three times, which is more, you know, it's symbolic than anything. And there's paperwork, obviously, because it's the bureaucracy of the Navy. You've got to fill all this stuff out. But it takes a couple days. So I actually went out on my way to go sit down and talk with the people who were quitting.

Not because I was doing some weird, like, sociology experiment. I basically wanted to weaponize their issues against the other students because I considered to be a very serious job and we're looking for serious people. And so I just like, so what was it? Like you said you wanted to be a seal. You said you wanted to do it your whole life. Yeah, what happened. And almost every time it was they just got overwhelmed by the, the totality of what was in front of them. They thought of their world as being very big. And the advice I was given as a student, right around the Hellweek time period, they were like, listen, and this is from people who've made it through, they're like, the week sucks. Like,

we can agree on that. But don't think about the week. They have to feed you every six hours. I'm like, oh, okay, well, you know, I can tolerate quite a bit for six hours. And they leave me alone, essentially, for 30 minutes to an hour and I get to eat. Recharge six hours at a time. Well, you do that 30 times. Dude, you're done. You know? And so that really was it. It was big world versus small world. Yeah. It was almost always the difference between quitting and living with regret because I've seen I've actually met quite a few of the students who quit when I was there and Regret would be the single word that I would use to describe how they feel about the choice they made in that moment in a moment and they'll have that and hopefully they can get over it or maybe they can't but That's what's how it was it was how they approached their world and if they got too big

Done through the time. Yeah, you know, I mean that's what I always do you know like when shit goes bad for me like You know I'll I'll bring it down to a dead day like I'm going to get through the day. Yep. And shit gets worse for me. I go meal to meal. Yeah. Right.

And you can keep going, hour to hour. All right, cool. I'm going to get through this phone call. I'm going to get through 10 minutes. Yeah. I mean, you know, like I, you know, it's, you know, somebody once told me, so you know how you eat an elephant? By the time.

One bite at a time. Yeah. Right? One bite at a time. And it's funny, like, you know, people always ask me about mental toughness. Like, are you born with it or can you train it? And the only answer is yes. You're born with it and you can train it.

Yeah. big part of mental toughness is how you approach and set your goals. It is. And that can be taught. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, nobody, I don't care how tough you are. I mean, can take hell we can look at it the entire week and say, and get through it. You know what I'm saying? Like, I think everybody, it's how they, how they tackle it, right? How they, their mindset of tackling. I mean, so what do you think is harder in buds? Do you think it's more mental or more physical? You know, you hear people a lot of the time say it's all mental, which if you're running around with a telephone pole and a boat on your head, I'm not levitating those things.

So there's a huge physical aspect of it. But anybody can be physical. I mean, anybody can. The students who arrive there have been tested and have the physiological capacity to graduate from a contractile potential or endurance, whatever it is. They have what they need to do it. So there is a level of physicality that is required, and it is very hard. but, you know, and maybe a couple students per class won't be able to pass the runner the swim time. So there's some of that, but most of it, vast majority, I'd say 80th or 90th percentile is quitting.

And it's, anybody can make it through a day of buds. Any man or woman can make it through any one day. Just like any man or woman could take a piece of 80-grip sandpaper and swipe it across your knuckles once. Can you do it 180 days straight? That's what's hard about buds. It's the grind. Every day you're like, okay, because the first swipe, ah, it's a little bit red. A week in, it's bleeding.

You know, five weeks in, you got infection, but you still got to, you just got to grind your way through it. That's where... That's a good perspective. That's a good way to put it. That's where the, that's what's hard about buds. It's not the day, it's not the week, it's just the whole thing. It's just, it's designed to be a kick in the balls. And we don't teach the mental, you know, keeping the world small versus big.

Because, and I don't think we should. we should later on in training, but there has to be a phase where... Can you expand on that? I don't know what you mean by that. Keep the world small. Like small goals versus, you know, so having a macro goal being, I want to graduate buds, but a micro goal of I want to see the sunset tonight. So we don't teach that, and I think it's important that we don't, because we're looking

for people that I think naturally gravitate towards that. And because those are the ones who can grind. Like, that's, that's, they, they just can grind it out for those minutes. Because you got to do the same shit in combat. Yeah. I mean, you have to do the same shit when everything's bad. I mean, you can't look at the whole situation because you'll lose your shit. I mean, you can't look at a whole deployment.

You have to look at it as, you know, I mean, there are times where you're like, I just have to get to that rock. I just have to get. Yep. You know what I mean? I used to do this on long patrols. It's like, oh, my God. Yeah.

You got to walk 15 clicks just to get there. I'm going to work to that house over there. And then I get to the house. I'm going to walk to the bend of the road. All right. the road. I'm going to walk to the base of that hill. And I'm not even going to remember that I have to walk over that hill in a few minutes. Yeah, yeah. Don't you talk about that. Right. I mean, it's, that's, it, it helps me in my life too. I mean, I have, I have shitty days just like anybody else does. And I literally, in all honesty, fall back onto, like, I just tell my something. I just keep going, man. I mean, you have kids. I have kids. Oh, yeah. Finding Nemo, right? My daughter, she'll say, dad, just keep swimming. I'm like, hey.

But I mean, it's the same principle, right? In a kid's movie, just keeps swimming. You know, my buddy, my buddy, I'm, look, I would call him a brother. Rob O'Neill. Yeah. He always said that he just said, he just tells himself, I'm going to quit tomorrow. Yeah, get through the day. I'll just quit tomorrow.

Yep. You know what I mean? I'll just quit tomorrow. That's what he said he thought of getting through. It's always intrigues me on how people, like, got through those times. Yeah. I mean, like, I think it's an incredible, I think it's an incredible thing that, that, you know, given those techniques, I think, are so important.

Yeah. You know, to have. And they're impactful. It's like, it's a simple, it shows you the power of your thoughts, too. It does. It's super small word to yourself or just, like, when it sucks, like, just keep going, like, you're going to be all right. It changes people's lives when they hear you say that. It's like, I would, you know, go slap your parents.

I should have told you. I think what helps me the most is, I think what helps me the most is, is, is, you know, is putting in perspective that, look, it's just a moment in time. Yeah. You know, this is not forever. Yeah. It's a moment in time. I agree, man.

You know, I think that's what's always telling me. So how do you get into base jump? And so I want to know, I mean, tell me, tell me this. I know. So I get this text. It says, will you teach me to base jump? And from who? From who?

From you? I'm like, well. I figured if anybody was going to do it, it should be you. Yeah. I would actually point you into people's hands who are far more capable. I'll come film it for sure. But my response is like, yes, dot, dot, dot, dot, but there's some things we need to do first.

Actually, I think what you said was high risk. Yeah, high consequences. High consequences. And I think I responded with, so is getting married. True. In general, yeah. Right, is that what I said? It was exactly what you said, yeah.

So base jumping is much like skydiving, except it's from a static object. The acronym base stands for building antenna, span, or earth. Skydiving, the gear looks to see. It looks the same to a lot of people, but it's very different. The parachute systems are different. They're designed different. And if you want to base jump, which I'm not going to say that I think people should base jump. I think you should live your life however you want to.

You get a lap around the track and fill it up. But if you want to base jump, you have to learn how to skydive first. And it's more so you know how to fly a canopy. Because either of those activities, hopefully will terminate in a canopy open over your head, especially if you want to repeat the activity. You can do it once without opening your parachute. The second time is a bitch. after that.

So, start skyniving. And I hear people at drop zones verbalizing before they've ever done a jump. Yeah, I just want to get enough jumps

so I can go base jump. And to me, that's a very bad approach to take. You've watched too many YouTube videos. I mean, it really is that, because YouTube doesn't show

you a decade that goes into a stunt, which is what a lot of things on YouTube actually are. It's not like, hey, a random moment that happened in time. They're highlight reels.

They're highlight reels that are coordinated and they're edited. And if you know what to look for, you can see it. And I know some of the people who make them now. And I'm like, dude, I know how much work goes into this. That terminated in a 60-second video that people are going to try to repeat, which is not their fault. They're idiots if they're trying to repeat it.

And they're going to reap with a sewed. They skip the experience part. So you've got to start skydiving. Flying your body, flying a canopy. Then, I mean, I think a safe threshold for base jumping. I don't, I'd have to ask my buddy Miles, who is the guy who taught me. five, I mean, he also has taught a guy who had never jumped before. He said he would never do it again.

Maybe 500 jumps. And that actually will take you a couple of years. Unless you work in the sport, like you're teaching, jumping, or doing tandems, 500 jumps for most people is about three years. How many do you get a year? At post-military, it accelerated. I think I had 3,500 jumps when I got out of the military. I have 7,000 and change now. Five to 600 a year.

I mean, it depends. Some months I'll get a ton, and I'll go a month without jumping, and then dive right back into it. But I can go to a drop center and crank out eight in a day. No problem. So let me ask you, yes. Have you ever had one where your shoot didn't open? Yep. Yeah.

Malfunctions happen on your main parachutes, I think statistically about every 860 jumps. So you've had a few? I have. And they're not that big of a deal. The reserve on a skydiving parachute is packed by an FAA certified rigor. It's a pretty good process and structure in place. So I only pack the main. It will malfunction.

Even if you pack it properly, eventually something weird is going to happen. I mean, it's fabric. If you can fold a T-shirt, you can fold a parachute. And then you get some spaghetti strings that you stuff in a bag and hope for the best. The reserve is not packed in that way. It's laid out with clamps and they inventory their gear before they start the inventory of their gear. After they start, it's a very structured process. But the first one's pretty emotional.

You know, it's an emotional event. And then get a little bit more experience into your belt. and you're like, okay, I know how to deal with this. Another one will happen again. You execute your procedures again. And what really I think it is is you trust your gear. Like, okay, this is going to work. I know that if I execute my procedures properly at the right time, I'm going to be okay.

And what do they say? Like, I always heard like whenever someone I ask, like, how long do you have to pull your reserve? Yeah, it depends on how high off the ground you are. No, no, no. I got a better line before you. They told me. Yeah, the rest of your life. The rest of your life.

Yeah. I hear that one all the time too, yeah. Right? Yeah. Like, if you have a problem, you have the rest of your life to figure it out. Recommend you get on it. I recommend you make it a priority. Yeah.

But a lot of this stuff, it's a decision. Like, if this happens, do that. And it's really, okay, that looks terrible. I'm going to get rid of that terrible looking parachute and fire my reserve. And the gear, I mean, main parachutes, yes, they malfunction, but there hasn't been a main malfunction and a reserve malfunction that terminated in a fatality in quite some time. It's not the gear that's killing people.

It's a lack of experience. Well, it's poor decisions. Like, they'll wait too long to cut away. And then if you die because your reserve didn't have time to open, that's not your reserve's fault. That's, you know, but people look at that because I said that, I was like talking about gear on another podcast recently. And people like, well, I went and looked at the stats and no, look at this one. This guy died. I'm like, yeah, but you're not a jumper.

You don't know what you're reading. The guy initiated a cutaway at 400 feet. Your reserve can't open in that fat. Like, that's his fault. That's not the gears fault. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And mains are designed. They're going to malfunction at some point.

That's why you have a reserve. So what, that's crazy. I couldn't imagine. Like, first off. You start slow, though. You know, by the time you get to, I had 3,500 jumps, 4,000 jumps before I put a wingsuit on. And how's that?

So, I mean, that's a whole other ballgame. So base jumping. It doesn't suck. I'll tell you that much. Yeah. It's, I mean, you're flying face first at 120 miles an hour. If you really got the suit, powered up and you can fly close to your friends in the skydiving world which like almost every

picture of me I have a shit eating grin on my face I tried not to smile but I'm just like whoa yeah it's awesome and then base jumping you can get in that suit and you could fly away from objects and try to get as far out or you can fly close to the ground and play slalom with trees you know it's really it's you pick your poison on that one and the consequences to come with that poison. But it's, it's really, I mean, it's really fun, but it has to be respected because you can get bent out of shape in those things pretty quick. How, how hard is, is it flying to? They're not, they're not that hard from a physical perspective. You get a little bit of shoulder until you have the, it's just, they're muscles that you're not used to using. It's mostly like your shoulder just

kind of driving the suit up and pulling the wing forward to keep it tensioned. And then pressing down into the air a little bit, but after, you know, you do it 50 jumps, you won't fill your arms anymore. It's not bad. You can relax in the suit if you want, and it'll fly itself at about probably 60% of what it's capable of doing. It feels like lying on an air mattress. So how do you, I mean, okay, I understand the military part of it, like where you start jumping, but I mean, how do you just say, okay, I'm going to put a flying suit on? The guy who taught me to base jump would not shut up about them. And I had seen them around the drop zone. And on the ground, you're unzipped and it looks very cumbersome and uncomfortable because it is cumbersome and uncomfortable.

But he just was like, dude, these are awesome. You guys showing me videos. I'm like, Miles, if it'll shut you up, I'll try it. And then I tried it. I was like, God damn it. I should have tried this 10 years ago. Should have tried it 10 years ago. So it was cool.

And it's like rediscovering a new sport. It's totally different. You're tripling your amount of time that you're flying or falling. And you're managing your forward speed. It was a whole different discipline. and so it was a whole other like resurgence of a love for the sport or activity. And so the other question I have is like, how do you figure out like, okay, here's where I can go? I mean, I can't just go.

You know what I'm saying? Like I know it sounds dumb, but how do you know you're going to make it? How do you go find somewhere where it's like, okay, like I can fly down this and then I still have a, I can still have enough room to open my shoe, right? I mean, that's because that's kind of a big deal. Well, there's some trailblazers out there that are constantly out looking for new exit points. and the community skydiving community is very small

I don't actually have any numbers but maybe a million scotip in the U.S. Maybe, I don't know. The wingsuit-based jumping community is microscopic in comparison. So if you get to know the right people there's a lot of beta being passed around and nobody's out there like,

hey, I hope you die. It's the opposite. Like, let me give you some local spit. This is what I found in the hopes of keeping you alive. So the trailblazers are out there doing most of the stuff. For me, I'm not really interested

and like going crazy remote backcountry and because it's all eyeball based. There's no gauges. It's all tactile sensation in your suit to determine how fast you're going and listening to the speed. And you're gauging angles and distance just through your eyes at 120. And yeah, sometimes people don't quite judge it correctly and they make dents. So tell me a scary time. When I am base jumping, I am scared every time. I mean, and the second that I step to allege in every alarm bill in my body is not going off and I'm not terrified and there's not a little P-ring on my shorts, I'm going to I'm going to quit right there because it is dangerous.

And yes, you're essentially committing controlled suicide that you have to work your way out of and it has to be respected and that fear is an important mechanism to keep you centered in that moment. Yeah. And again, complacency is what kills people in that world most often as well. They just do it so much and get so accustomed to it from what I've seen. And I just can't imagine being in that spot because I'm freaking terrified. Because you don't even need a reserve for base jumping. There's no time for it. You pack your own parachute.

You get one. And have you ever had a malfunction on that? I've had some twists on opening, which are controllable, but I've never had anything structural where like the gear wasn't functioning. Even with the twist, the parachute was flying straight. I was actually able to turn it and land back towards the grass field instead of towards the trees I was flying towards. Those are emotional events. I bet.

Yeah, conversations with yourself about life choices when you're laying on the ground after that. Like, what am I doing? So why push it? Like, why? I mean, didn't you take enough chances? Yeah, that's a fair question. I mean, why?

I mean, you got, you know, that's what I want to know. Like, what are you seeking deep down? I don't know if I'm seeking. What is it satisfying? Like, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. You know what I'm trying to get at, right? I'm not saying, I'm not saying, you know, why do you, why do you?

I mean, why put yourself through those emotional times? It makes me a better person. It's a fair question. It's fair for people to say, you know, you have a family. You have kids. And my kids see me doing this stuff. I've flown over them in Switzerland, in my wingsuit, and then landed right next to them on the canopy,

and they're like high-fiving. To them, they're like, oh, yeah, dad's just doing this thing. And it's fair for people who look at the things that I choose to do and say you're taking risk because I am taking risk. Everybody takes risk. What I'm not doing is gambling, though. But for me,

the mental place I get myself into when I'm on that edge, you know, I've been married for 17 years next month. We've had an argument or two. Wow. Sometimes when you're hiking up damn cell phones like your wife can call you, and you can have an argument on the hike to a base jump.

The closer I get, I start putting my gear on, that fades away. You know, 1099 income, like I was saying, it's a free prison. Some months are better than others. Yes. As you start zipping up and you start stepping to the edge, that fades away. And I'm not worried about my checking account balance or whether or not the check for the mortgage is going to clear a bounce. And the closer I get, every aspect of the bullshit that I wade through, and we all struggle with, right? it's gone and it's and I've read books about you know they describe it as the flow

state or and I used to get it on helicopters at like the one minute alcohol like you're just no your world is just right here laser-like focus and what I find is when I jump and I can get to that spot it pulls back the levers on a lot of other aspects in my life that have nothing to do with jumping I'm more compassionate with my kids I am more patient it just it pulls that stereo equalizer bars back from the 10. And I don't know if I've always been like that. I don't know if I'm seeking that or driving that,

but it's just for me, I find it to be very fulfilling and very empowering. And in addition, I want my kids to see people living life. Like, I know it's dangerous. My wife knows I might die doing that stuff. My kids know that. And that's okay, because I would rather go out doing that,

showing my kids that you can do whatever the fuck you want to do. and live your life, however you want to live it, to the level that you want to live it, not what other people say, then be 80 in a room with somebody wiping my ass going, I wish I would have fill in the blank. Holy shit. So, yeah, that's why you should not swing Sue Bishop.

That's me. That's what I get out of it. Some people want to be YouTube stars. That's not what I'm there for at all. What I like is going and doing jumps without a GoPro. That's where you're going to find. out. Like, if you have to have six on you, maybe you're in it for the wrong reason. Go jump a couple times without and see if it gives you that same sense of fulfillment. And if it does,

whatever your passion is, then I think you're headed in the right direction. Man, we think nice. I think that you're coming from a really well level-headed approach to all this. You've tried. You've had some time to process all this. Because at first... You just do you hike a lot. It's like three-hour hike for a 90-second flight. You can think about some shit in three hours. At first I thought you were kind of going towards like this. It's a pure escapism. Yeah, not even really. But it's really more of a, like a centering.

Yeah. It lasts for months afterwards. One jump? One jump, probably not. That'll have an impact. But if I go, I try to go to Europe about two weeks a year with close buddy that I jump with from the military. I'm very selective of the people that I go into the backcountry with in any environment.

Because if I go with you in the backcountry, you are my family. my responsibility. If something happens, I will fucking get you home. And I will only jump with people who have that same mentality. And you'd be surprised. Actually, you wouldn't be surprised. No. There's a lot of people who don't have that mentality. They're like, hey, bro, see you, you're on your own. That's not my jam. So it's, I go on those trips, spend a couple weeks over there. Like, I'm a different person when I come back for a long time. And it helps. And it, it just, it helps you see through the BS, man, because you're living in that second. And that's all you got is that second and maybe the next two or three.

And I wish everybody had a chance to experience that. Maybe they should find a statistically safer way to experience that as opposed to following what I'm doing. But it's impactful. And I think you can get that experience. Go to go to the gym. Just go outside and do something visceral and physical. Put the phone down from looking at other people's pictures of doing awesome stuff and go do awesome stuff. You know what I mean?

Go do awesome stuff. Don't like a picture of somebody doing something cool. Go do something cool that somebody will like the picture of. And you'll get into that moment and it'll change your life. I have found it. That's one thing I would change about the culture in the country right now is you need to get out and struggle and grind. And for me, I can do that and have an awesome time on the way down. Hiking downhill sucks. Flying downhill is awesome. Hard on the knees. I guess based on a goodbie too, if your parachute didn't open. I'd be very hard on the knees. That'd be very hard on these. So what about you, man? I mean, what do you do now?

I'm always interested to talk to people. And obviously, your background is unique too. I would imagine your post-military, some things about what happened to in the military have probably changed your life. So, I mean, what do you do now? You know, so I'm kind of like you, right? Like, I hate that question.

Yeah. It's a rough one. You know, it is because, like, you know, I think whenever I talk about it, I don't think it's rough in my mind because I know the grind and the time and the effort it takes to put in it. But I think if you don't say, well, I'm some executive here or I do this, like people kind of like underestimate, oh, well, you don't have a real job. Well, I guarantee I work. I know I put double the hours in it, but people who work a real job.

When it's on your shoulders, all of it, soup to nuts. Yeah, 40-hour work week, come at me when you're at about 80, son. Yeah. Now, the difference might be that I might put that 80 in, you know, I might put 120 hours in in two weeks. Yeah. Right? Like, you know, like I just, you know, so it's different. So what do I do?

You know, I got out and I had the struggle of transition too. I mean, I mean. What was the hardest part? What do you think caused you, or not caused you to destroy? What do you think enabled or was the root cause of the trouble? I didn't want to get out. I mean, I didn't want. Did you have a choice?

I did. I did. You know, I knew it was time for me to get out because of what happened to me. And I had a bad chip on my shoulder. And I knew I would be a cancer, the military. And I was at the point to where I was in a little. leadership role. Yeah. And I knew that that would not be good, right? What was the chip from? You know, my leadership failed me. Yeah. My teammates are dead because my leadership.

It's a pain that will never leave you for the rest of your life. It is. And I think I could deal with it. But the problem, like, I honestly, like I felt like, I felt like the joke was on me. and you know I literally bought into all the gimmicks like it wasn't like leave no man behind was not a t-shirt for me right like it was it was edged in my every moral fire of my being yeah you didn't open a fortune cookie one day like damn leave no man behind no got it you know I mean like it wasn't that the brotherhood was not like and you know I always live with this mentality of you know if they wear the uniform yeah it's U.S. Army, U.S. Marine, if it says U.S. at the beginning of it, if they wear the uniform, they will live and die by that same coat. Like, I truly believed it. Yeah. I truly, every mission I went on, I never worried about would somebody come get me? I never did. And, you know, I felt like after my, you know, my deal on September 8th, when I watched

so many people let so many people die. Yeah. It was like, I don't know, maybe, you know, I felt like I was an idiot. I was like, the joke was on me. Like, it's like the ha-ha got you, right? You see behind the curtain and you, I've had that experience. I tell people when I talk about leadership, the best leaders I ever worked with were in the SEAL teams.

Yeah. And the worst leaders that I ever worked with were in the SEAL teams. Yeah. It's easy to confuse occupation and character. Yes. You know, and it's, it, uh, there's the same struggles in the teams. Like, and that's one thing. I, I, I actually go out of my way to try to dispel misconceptions.

Like, people think seals are, oh, it's a valley of magical unicorns, and there's rainbows and gumdrops are falling from this guy. Like, no. The honor man of my Bud's class is in prison for luring a couple back to his house, murdering them and chopping them up with spider co. And then he went and tried to rob a hooters and take their t-shirts. That last part, I'm still a little bit weirded out by. Yeah.

I mean, obviously he was a sociopath, so the first part makes a little bit more sense. But he's the honor man in my blood's class. Yeah. Not very honorable. No. You know? I've seen it all. I've seen theft from your brothers, stealing, cowardice.

Like, you see it all. And you got to learn, yeah, like, it's, that's why I wanted when I stayed in. That's why I wanted to switch from being an enlisted guy to an officer. I was kind of stalled out on the enlisted ranks, and I knew I wanted to stay. But if I was going to stay, I was going to stay. I wanted to be in a place where I could have an impact. And that's why I chose the route that I did. It's tough.

People look at the military and they think it's all stand-up characters and individuals. It is not. 100% it is not. And it's important. And I tell people, take every military member and every veteran you meet as an individual data point. Don't wrap us all around them. Correct. And don't buy into any of the crap.

Take each person for what they're worth. And if they're giving you a bad vibe, that's okay. Limit your exposure and avoid that. Because, yeah, I get a man. I was curious to... Yeah, you know, that was kind of, you know, so I got out. And I think the hardest part for me getting out was just the fact that it wasn't... You know, I lived my job.

Like, it was like, this is going to be the rest of my life. You know, and... Because you joined right out of high school. I did, 17. Yep, same here. And, you know, I became one of the youngest snipers in the Marine Corps. Yeah. Graduated sniper school.

Actually, I went to school with a couple of snipers. The Sakala. I don't know if you ever know of a guy named Sakka. Hala or a guy. Yeah, did you go through in Camp Pendleton? Siki. No, he was from, he was out in Hawaii. Okay. What sniper school did you go through, though? Hawaii. Oh, okay, yeah, because we used to, when the billets were full, we would send guys,

we've had guys go to Army, sniper course, and I know for a fact, Penelton. I didn't know about the Hawaii woman. I know guys went to Pendleton. Yeah, and so, you know, I just, you know, but after that day, you know, I just, there's no way I was going to get treated the same. So I got out, and, you know, it's just the brotherhood, like the purpose, the sense of purpose, right? Like here's the fact that you have to, you know, getting out, like if anybody's listening to getting out, the first thing you have to be able to understand and realize is you will never have a purpose as great as you had while serving the nation. Like it's just go ahead and get that out of your mindset of trying to find it.

You will never have a greater purpose than to serve the United States of America. There's no greater, there's no greater job or greater fulfillment than being able to serve your country. So you got to find what's second best. you know what I mean and that's just the reality of it and I think for me to come to that grips was you know a tough one how did you finally come to grips with it you know I had a lot of hard times man uh you know the you know a lot of people think I got out got the metal life was easy like they think that that's that's that's how it goes and it wasn't you were you were out for a good piece before you got it though yeah yeah so about 18 months and I was a train wreck yeah I mean

train wreck, you know. And then I got the medal, and it just made it even worse. Yeah, I sat down with Brian Shantosh, awesome dude. Navy Cross recipient Marine Corps officer stud. Basically ran through in a trench in Iraq and smoked everyone. Yeah. Write comic books about this dude. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I've known him longer, and I know more about what had happened with him. But, you know, and I asked him very specifically, if he ever first. felt like he, I don't want to use the word owned, but if the awarding of that medal, he felt like tied to it. You know, it always, like, always bouncing back. You know what I mean? Like it always is constantly there.

Like, God, okay, I don't want to do this, but I have to, because of this award or this medal. And he said he struggles with it too. You know, that medal ruined my life. Wow. Okay. And I'll tell you right now, the Medal of Honor ruined my life. the most miserable thing in my life is that Medal of Honor.

You know, I'm not a guy who wanted the spotlight. Yeah. It wasn't my thing. I'm a simple kind of guy. I hate the medal. I don't go to the Medal of Honor. I'm not part of the Medal of Honor society. I mean, I don't do anything with them.

I don't wear the medal. You know, I... But it's not anything against it, right? Right? But, you know, I mean, people are like, why don't you wear your medal? And it's like, well, I don't know. Do you go out and wear your medals? No.

I don't even know where they are. Okay, so why would I? Because, you know, it doesn't, I'm not a Medal of Honor recipient. I'm a United States Marine that received the Medal of Honor. Yeah. That medal doesn't define me. You know what I mean? And I think that that's where people go so wrong.

Well, I think it's easy. I mean, there's not that many people who have it, right? And I know a couple. And I won't, older generation. Yeah. And I won't say any names. Yeah, of course. But the dude is defined by it.

They are. And it's like, it's, when people see him, they see the metal. They don't see him. And it's like the guy's on the circuit. He just goes and he's boozing. You know what I mean? Boozoooo. And all he does is he goes and just gets blackout drunk.

and makes an ass of himself in the seal community. It's like, let's just drag everybody through the mud. Let's just drag an entire community. Because most people don't, they're like, it's, I mean, I forget. Like most people, there's not that many seals. People are like, oh, I've never met one. Well, if you have a bad experience with one, it's very easy to think that they all suck. And some of them do.

Yeah. But it's that one guy that says it's, it has to be an incredibly heavy burden to carry. You know, I'll tell you that one of the most depressing times after getting the medal. I went to one of the first convention that I at right after I got it, right? You know, because it's a thing to do, right? I mean, is that just a gathering largely of recipients? Yeah, yeah, so they go and it's kind of like a drinking deal, right? I don't know.

It's like a hangout, it's like a convention or something like that. So it's convention that was in Louisville and I went to it and I left there so depressed, man. And it wasn't like, it was like I loved those, like those guys, they're, they're, let me tell you this up front. Those guys are heroes. I mean, those guys, like, they're the guys that I listen to in boot camp about their heroic stories, right? So let me get that off the chest, right? But, man, like, I went in there and I left, and I just see all these guys just walking around with these medals and just, like, this metal that they got 60 years ago.

and I left her so down because I'm like so this is it for me at 23 years old this is the most I'm going to accomplish this is the biggest thing I'm going to accomplish so for the rest of my life I'm never going to accomplish anything bigger I'm going to be known as

something that I did at 23 years old a failure which in my way the other piece of yeah exactly I mean knives hears me talk all the time and to me the other piece of it is is that I feel like that every time I put that metal around my neck it's to show the world how big of a failure I am and and you know and that's just like you know it's a reminder of the worst day in my life the very worst day in my life you know I mean and I just there's nothing good

And there's nothing for me that's good because of the Medal of Honor. Like for Dakota personally, there's nothing good for the Medal of Honor in my life. Now, the only thing I will say it does for me is it allows me the credibility to go in and speak to groups like I did today, right? Yeah, it gives you the platform. It gives me a platform to be able to help people. Yeah. But for me personally, it doesn't do anything good for me. Yeah, it's, I mean, Dan.

Damn, dude, that's, I certainly didn't expect you to hear you say that, but... I hate it. Let me just say it's up front. I hate that fucking metal. Like, honestly, it's, like, at my house, it's in my daughter's toy chest because she wears it with dress up. I mean, that's, first, that's a pretty strong dad move. I'm just going to say that there, because that's a unique piece of flair.

Yeah. Okay. You got right out of, yeah. So she's solid, but it's... You know, it was funny. I was talking to a guy who I hadn't seen in probably 15 years today. And we were talking, he's just been out for three years. And I always ask guys like, hey man, how are you like in being out?

And because there's guys who really struggle. And the best thing that happened to me in my career was the night I got shot. Because I was figuratively or metaphorically and literally laying flat on my back, questioning whether I was going to live through the next five minutes, then into the hospital and doing the whole medevac thing getting home and questioning whether or not I was going to be able to continue doing

my job and it allowed me to lift my head up and look around a little bit and start thinking about what's next and without that I think I would have struggled it would have struggled even more because I do see a lot of guys who are

like it's cool the ribbon is like the one cent piece of ribbon and a five cent piece of of something that happened in the past. Yeah. And you can't live in the past. No. And it's, and that, to me, it literally was like, it took me a long time.

I really struggled. I definitely, I was playing around with my favorite recipes of prescription pills and rums. Oh, man. Rums were the preferred washdown for the meds. Yeah, yeah. The preferred. Captain Morgan, I think I paid the light bill at whatever company owns Captain Morgan for a couple

months. But at the end of that, like, I knew it was going to come to an end, and I knew I had to do something else and try to become something else. And I don't know, man, from an outside perspective, I'd never met you before sitting down the day. I mean, let that thing drive you, dude. Don't hate it. Let it burn that fire, so it's not going to be what to find you. And I have, and I have started using, like, I'm not going to say using it, but I have let it drive more to be able to just like today, you know, be able to go talk to the first responders that were, you know, out here in Las Vegas that were there October 1st and be able to talk to them. So, you know, I have let it do that. Yeah. But, you know, I always call it the Uncle Rico

syndrome. And I've seen it. I think the military is probably one of the worst about it. Everybody, like a lot of people justify who they are today by their actions in the past. Yeah. Right? Like, you know, well, I've been to combat. What are you done? Yeah. Oh, I can go get loaded and do what I want because this is who I was a decade ago. Exactly. No. Like, like, yeah, yeah, you know, I, like, the one I hate so much, and this is what helped me after I got out, I had to get rid of this chip on my shoulder, was I served this country. It owes me. Yeah, I tell people.

You don't know you shit. Well, here's the deal. Military service is a privilege. And when you get out of it, I have two things. One is, then your next service should begin. Because you can still serve your country without being in uniform. Absolutely. And that comes through family and community and making an impact in those areas. But I always tell guys and gals, don't think that anybody owes you anything.

There is the stereotype of the veteran that is out there that truly embodies the exact opposite of that that does want a handout and I would say that they're definitely the minority oh 100% but unfortunately as always the vocal or more visible minority paints the majority but I mean yeah there's some people out there to think like yep I did my time now you need to serve me it's like no man no no you did your time now figure out how you're going to continue to serve yeah yeah it ain't over yeah it's not it's like your contract might be over yeah but your service better continue I actually feel obligated I was talking my buddy's name is bill and again some today and he's up in Idaho teaching and like trying to

that he's teaching mindset and physical skills and outside. And I feel obligated because of the people that I was so fortunate to be surrounded by, I feel obligated to pass on those lessons. Man, you know, every time I get down and, you know, I do. I'll be honestly, I still struggle. Every time I get down, man, like I look at my wrist and I got four names right there that would give anything. They would switch any bad scenario I'm in to have one more day on earth. Yep.

You know what I mean? And that's, you know, that's where I had to switch it. I mean, so long, you know, I got out and I played the victim for a long time. You know what I mean? Like, I've been through this, blah, blah, blah, you know, the excuse, right? Yeah. And, you know, you can either, you know, the day that you become the victim is the day that you allow yourself to become the victim. And it's all between the years, man.

It is. It is. It is. It's really, it really, I can either use this as my excuse and my crutch, or I can use it as the fuel to go out and the passion to do better. Yeah. Right? I mean, it's incredible. It is. I'll be honest, man. I'm blown away that you're talking about the award and the terms that you are. But I'm actually, I'm glad that you are at the same in the same token. It's refreshing to hear.

Yeah, you know, I mean, look, I mean, it was one day of my life. Yeah, it's exactly what Tosh said. It's one day of my life. So what do I do? Like, is the rest of my life justified for me to be an asshole, for me not to contribute to anything? Some would say yes. Well, and those would be the ones that are in the category of wrong. And we call those people wrong. Yeah, exactly. For sure, man.

No, you know, I mean, it's just one of those deals that like, you know, I think that every day you have a clean slate. Every day you wake up with a clean slate. And when you go to bed that night, so whatever it is like about your life that, you know, that's important to you, like being a father, being a husband, being a, you know, whatever it is, right? I mean, maybe it's a service member, blah, blah, blah, whatever. But at night, when you go to bed, you know, you look in the mirror and you know what did you earn that day to have that title? Like, you being a husband, I mean, your wife allows you to have that title. Yeah. I mean, and that's an honorable title.

You being a father, is it a title or were you a real father? Yeah. Right? I mean, like, that's an honor. I mean, for me to be a veteran, to me to be a Marine, it's my honor to be allowed to have that title. Yeah. Right?

I mean, you'd be a seal. But what did you do today to earn that title? Yeah. Do you still live the ethos, right? Do you still live that way of honor? You know what I mean? Like, you have to, you can't just wear the t-shirt and not still live that way of life and have the title.

I wish more people thought that way I agree with you 100% But those people know who they are Yeah I think at the end of the day they do In their deepest darkest moments I do believe that those people know exactly who they are When they go to bed at night and look in the mirror Which is weird you don't shouldn't do that

Well I brush my teeth before I don't You don't brush your teeth for you? I do but I don't know if I'm like look in the mirror Like how are we doing? All right good let's go to bed You don't like look in the mirror and say hey man you want to go to bed with me yeah but i tell you what man you got a great platform um because you can do like it's the same thing we were talking about like i because of my background organizations will invite me in right and that's that's your leverage to open the door and teach oh yeah and explain to them

the power of leadership or whatever the topic may be to take those lessons that honor the names on your wrist you know what i mean and drive it for it's cool man it's uh i hope one of day you don't hate that metal though i hope one day it sits differently yeah with you because it's an amazing thing man like uh that's all you can say it's an amazing thing that happened you know man i just have one goal in life and it's that the day i die when they're up there like reading my eulogy it says dakota he was this this this this this this this this this this oh and also he was a metal recipient yeah I I'm actively and I actively try to people be surprised when they find out I was in the military they're like what you're in the military like yeah I was in the past yeah now we're on

uncharted territory what's next I don't know right what's next so I'm on a road though I just don't know where it's going so tell me so tell me like so you're you're trying so what's so what's your big goal right now uh Well, we just moved. So we just kind of finished a pretty large goal, which was to get out of California. Love California for a variety of reasons. I was born and raised there. I hate California for a variety of reasons.

My wife was born in Montana. And it's funny, I have yet to meet somebody who was either born in Montana or spent a lot of time there that isn't constantly trying to find a way to go back. They're just like, we need to go back at some point. And I get it now. I lived there when I was very young in Missoula. Like, I remembered it snow. That's the limit of my time. So we had made a goal and we got there this summer.

We crossed the border of July 1st. So that was a huge goal. At a professional level, I'm trying to do more with less and try to be more impactful and spend less time away from the family. And just I'm trying to focus more on being there and being dad because I agree with you. Father is a great title, but you better earn that thing every day. Oh, you have to earn it. And again, to, you know, I was talking with Bill again to date. In the military, I thought my job had, I thought it was important.

But if you think about it on a battlefield, you're limited to the effective range of your round. That's the impact you have. With my kids, I don't know if there is an effective range. I mean, we're talking about literally potentially making the world better. One day at a time, one generation at a time, such more impact. and I feel I mean again obligated is the word

that I feel like I have to do it right I don't want to mess them up you know I want them to make I want their lives to make mine look like a joke yeah

you know and like it's uh that's my main goal right now is to try to figure out ways so there's obviously a financial aspect of that and it's like I don't know

I get you to hard balance it is because people hit you up and it's like all right I want to be able to because I also I mean you inspire a lot of people I don't know about that

a lot of people no I mean you do I mean with what you do I mean, like, man, it's like, it's badass. I mean, it's badass what you do. And it's inspiring and it's empowering of, you know, I mean, not just your leadership, but by how you live your life. Yeah.

And I mean, you know, so, I mean, I'm telling you, you're changing the world. I mean, you're out there. I'm trying. I want to make a difference. Like if I had, when I was younger, people, like, why'd you want to be a seal? And I knew I wanted to be a seal since I was 11. And that's atypical for most people to hear. But, I mean, that was such a common narrative in the teams.

The dude next to me. He was like, yeah, me too. But I was when I was 10, you suck. I'm like, because of course, it's got to be measuring something at every time. Whether it's your hair or whatever it may be. How much product do you have? For sure. You know, I didn't have the vocabulary or really maturity to understand why, but I think I wanted

to do the job. I just want to do something that matters and makes a difference. It makes a world a better place. I think so, yeah. And there's a lot of paths to get there. And there's a lot of things. Everybody has a role in that. And I think that's lost a lot of the time.

Like, I work 9 to 5, what can I possibly do? I think everybody, I mean, everybody matters. Yeah. Everybody matters in this cog of this wheel called life. Everybody matters. Well, and I'll go back to keeping your world big versus small. You know, people say, I work 9 to 5, there's not much I can do. I'm like, wrong.

Think small. Think about your house. If you're not married and you don't have kids, that's cool. Do something awesome for your neighbor. Do something great for your community. Small that will have a macro ripple, right? the butterfly effect or however you want to talk it. But I mean, it's weird.

I mean, sometimes I feel stupid talking about that stuff because it sounds very grand. Like, oh, like, whoa, dude, you can start chanting or like get some weird salt crystals out. Yeah. But it's true. It's what I believe in. And if the vehicle, I think, to change people's mind on those topics is leadership. And that's why I think you have such a great platform because of your background because people will listen to you.

Yeah. And that's why I hope that one day it's not something that you hate. it's something that you're like you know what that because obviously it was it was hell right you live through hell and you came out on the other side and other people were not able to come out on the other side and I know that burden and I know I know how that can weigh but hopefully one day you can look on that is you know maybe you got through that for a reason so you could make the difference that you know with the platform that you have to do the things that you want to do it's all you can do that's it for this week thank you all for listening that's it's all you can do that's it for this week thank you all for listening that's some cool people coming up to be talking to in the very near future. As always, I appreciate the feedback. I appreciate the iTunes reviews, the emails that are sent. Again, I can't, I don't always get back, but I get back to every single one that I possibly can. I appreciate the feedback.

Good, bad, ugly, whatever it may be. If you got some, send it my way. And thank you to everybody who's been buying the hats and the T-shirts. I think we talked about it a little bit in this podcast, but I never had any intention or desire to do those things. and I just followed the advice of people who are far smarter than myself, and it's been amazing to see the feedback. So thank you, everybody, for supporting the podcast in that way, and that is it.

See you next week.