Cleared Hot - Powered By BRCC - Cleared Hot Episode 53 - Chris Spealler

Episode Date: August 20, 2018

Chris Spealler is a return guest on the podcast.  He is a former college wrestler, and most often known for his competitive days as a CrossFit Athlete. He had top ten finishes at the CrossFit Games in 2007, 2008, and 2010, and winning the Master category for 35-39 year old athletes in 2017.  He is the owner of CrossFit Park City in Utah, a husband and father, and a passionate archer (sort of).  The training program referenced in the podcast can be found here, at: Grunt Works, and can be used as a stand alone program, or as accessory training to your current program.  It is designed for capacity in the outdoors, not inside of the walls of a gym. 

What's going on, everybody? Episode 53. Before I get into this, there is something that I want to address. And I actually sat on this for about, like, it's not a week, probably close to a week, because I was trying to decide whether or not I actually wanted to take the time and effort to truly address this. And the conclusion I came to is that I need to, because, it highlights exactly what I was talking about in my initial criticism. So for clarity, I have been asked, and I often am asked many times

about individuals from the SEAL community that are in varying degrees of the public specter. Some of them are much more recognizable than others. Some of them have written books. some of them have worked in the entertainment industry, whatever it may be. I'm sure that every team guy or seal that is in or out at some point in time is going to get asked about another individual that they may or may not have worked with. My default position when it comes to being asked about these individuals, regardless of what it is that they are doing, especially when I'm asked in public.

usually it's about writing books. My default answer, and what I truly believe, is the individuals that choose to write books about their time in the SEAL community have every right to do so because they have earned their experiences. However, they are choosing a path that I would not choose, which is not a negative statement against them. It just highlights that for me, it's not a choice that I feel I will make in my life. life, but those individuals are in fact making that choice and their choice is theirs to make.

And the consequences or the benefit or whatever may come from it belongs to them, positive and negative. Now specifically, I will get asked about individuals on occasion. And there are a few names that come up. For me, probably the person, especially online, that I get asked about the most is Brandon Webb. And in all of the times that I have been asked about it, I have spoken on it publicly once and privately, specifically to an individual one time, and I'll cover that in a minute. My issue, as I stated, on the one time that I spoke about Mr. Webb is that I believe he has a casual relationship with the truth. And that is exactly what I said in the podcast.

specifically I'm talking about episode 42 of my podcast. I think I titled it the mother of all military Q&A, which is why I chose to answer it because it's a military-related question. Since that episode came up, his company, soft rep, posted a video about, or not a video about, a video of four U.S. soldiers getting killed in Niger. There was some backlash for that posting, as I have no doubt that there was. was an equal amount of support because you're going to get both sides of the coin coming out of the bleachers when that happens. I reached out while this was, I don't know if I want to say

ongoing, but I would say probably early on in its posting and offered a platform because I think it's an important discussion to have. I don't disagree that the right exists to post that video, but I disagree with why I personally believe that that organization, which Brandon is the CEO of, and therefore accountable and responsible for the organization chose to put the video out. We went back and forth a little bit. Bottom line was is that we were either not able to or couldn't find an agreement on a way to conduct the podcast.

Now, about five days ago, I got sent a link from multiple people where Brandon specifically talked about this on his podcast, which is called Soft Rep Radio's, episode, I believe, 377. And I wouldn't have brought this up and continue to talk about this if I didn't think it highlighted my exact concerns and issues that I have with this particular individual. So I'm going to lay this out for anybody who happens to listen this. And at the end of this, make your own mind up. I'm going to try to be as professional and objective as possible and point directly to specifics instead of being in big.

with the way that I speak. So my issue starts right away with the narrative summary of the podcast that he put up online. Now, having said that, the odds of him actually being the person that wrote this narrative summary probably zero because I believe he passed on the operational control of the podcast of the current host. So I would be very surprised if he actually wrote this. But the concerning words were simple. It says that Brandon addresses the controversy.

controversy with Navy SEAL Andy Stumpf and there is no controversy there is me offering for Brandon to come on my podcast or offering to meet him anywhere in a neutral third-party location that is not in his control and recording a podcast and like I said even though he's not the person who probably wrote that summary it again highlights exactly my issues casual relationship with the truth. As you dig into it and he starts to describe who I am and what I do, he describes me as a dev grew guy. And then immediately starts talking about some issues that have been in the press associated with development group that have absolutely nothing to do with me and absolutely nothing to do with the time that I spent there. So let me be really clear. I would love for somebody

to find an example of me describing myself as a devsum. group guy, which I never have. And the reason for that is, is I spent minimal time there. I did my minimum obligation and then had to move on in my career due to an injury. Now, specifically the stuff he brought up was murder, corruption, and embezzlement, which over a long enough time period, probably every military command is going to have some issues. These particular ones were highlighted in a news article. Whether or not they are valid or truthful doesn't matter. His organization was not responsible or was not a source for those things. But to put my name out there and then immediately the next thing to come out of your mouth is to talk

about the negative things that are associated with the command. It creates a void. And that void is intentional. It's not accidental the way he talks about me. It's intentional because what it does is it provides a void for the listener to make an assessment. And I, I as an individual, believe that that assessment that he once made is that I am somehow tied to that. If an individual has a critique of me, I would much rather prefer they bring that specific critique up and talk about it with clarity, not in a blurry focus that you hope other people try to bring into clarity. So as it goes on, you know, he starts talking about how he's been at the front-leading edge. Now, that's my terminology, not his, but essentially, you know, he claimed that he was the first

person through the door on a lot of things, and he might have been. In podcasting, he certainly was not. In writing seal books, he certainly was not. But he has been very successful. And I need to make a very important point. I have no issue with his success. I don't look at other people, whether they come from my community or another community. And if they are successful, I don't view that as a negative on my position in life. So his success is deserved. and I hope it continues, quite frankly. What I don't hope continues is his casual relationship with the truth. So he talks about bullying and threats and intimidation, and I'm paraphrasing a little bit.

I don't think those are the exact words. But he describes that is essentially how seals are taught to solve problems, which it absolutely is not. The culture inside of the seal teams is aggressive. Yes, it's very A-type. Yes, we counsel and... and push people towards aggressiveness because of where we operate and where we live our lives on the battlefield.

But when it comes to solving problems, when it comes to presenting yourself and conducting yourself, it's the opposite. Objectivity, analytical problem solving skills, emotional control and leadership are probably the foundations of how we actually are able to accomplish things inside of the SEAL community. It continues on and one of his main criticisms of me is that I seem to be talking or seem to acting as if I talk for the SEAL community. Now, this is something that I, every single time that I am asked military questions, I try to open with, I do not speak for the SEAL community. I have only my own opinions and my own experiences. And I'm relatively certain I do that.

I don't believe in absolutes, so I know I don't do it every time. But I'm pretty certain that I do nearly every time. So I went back and I listened to the episode. And in episode 42, At the seven minute mark, I say exactly that. I speak only for myself, not for the community, and only the things that I have seen with my own eyes. The odds of him listening to the entire episode, probably zero. But the way with which he describes how I like to answer questions is again, inaccurate. The fact that he thinks that I speak for the SEAL community is again inaccurate. it. When I reached out to have him on the podcast, he asked if he could have the current host of his

podcast, Jack, join. And my response to him was, well, I don't know Jack, so I would prefer that you and I conduct the interview with just ourselves. In the opening of his podcast, he changes that. And he says, you know, well, in hindsight, now I believe what it is is that Andy is afraid of Jack because Jack asked really hard questions, which if you know anything about me or anything about my podcast is literally my favorite thing. If you have a hard question or a hard conversation to have, I will be standing first in line to be able to have that conversation. The reason I didn't want to have Jack present is I don't know him. And he doesn't come from our community. He comes from the special operations community and I have no doubt that his service was honorable

and amazing. I know literally nothing about the person. And so I'm not going to make any comparatives, and I don't want to say anything that could even be remotely construed as a pejorative towards him. I just don't know him. And if two SEALs potentially have an issue with accuracy about their community, it should be addressed directly with those two, not from somebody outside of the SEAL community. Continues on that I was talking shit about his sponsors. And my question to that would be, what sponsors are you talking about? I don't know of any of his sponsors or any sponsors for a podcast or on his business side of the house. And instead of giving examples of what he was talking about, again, he left it vague.

So my question to him would be, what sponsor? Now, there has been one instance where via email, an individual expressed me that they were going to have him on his podcast. And I responded and said, I would like to at least provide you with some additional. information so you can make a better decision. And I explained him exactly how I felt about Brandon and how the vast majority of the SEAL community feels about Brandon. And at the end of that email, I closed it with, I am not telling you not to have this individual on your podcast. I'm providing this information so that you can make a better decision. As it goes on, he talks about how he thinks I was trying to ambush him and essentially create a Mori Popovich type of, uh,

drama-filled interview. I've never watched Moripovich, but I can imagine what he was trying to say. Again, I'll get to that in a minute and when it comes to clarity and ambiguity. The bottom line is, is there's a vast difference between what he said and the reality of the conversation that he and I have had. And the interaction between he and I has been very limited up until this point. So if you're interested, or if people are curious as to why, I have an issue with this particular individual. If you have a few minutes, go listen to about the first 10 minutes of the episode 377. Then come back and listen to the next few minutes of this particular podcast because the best way I can highlight the difference between reality and the things that he was saying and why I say he has a casual relationship with the truth is I'm going to read every interaction than he and I have actually ever had, which has been incredibly limited.

I'm going to read this verbatim so people can make up their own mind. First time I ever reached out to him, I'm looking at Twitter through a direct message right now, was on May 16th, 2017, because I saw a picture in one of the books that he had written, and he was wearing a free fall parachute and was describing the training taking place in that picture as a free fall evolution in buds, which, guess what? there are no free fall evolutions in buds. So I reached out to him. Actually, we went publicly over Twitter a few times,

and then we started interacting via direct message. And I still have all these, and if there's any questions about these, and it gets to this point, I'll be more than happy to post them. So I wrote to him, Hey man, I don't know if our paths have ever crossed. To be honest, I have extremely mixed feelings about what you do.

I read the intro to your latest book yesterday, where you quote Roosevelt. From my perspective, the negative feedback you have received is not necessarily from haters and those that are unqualified to make their comments. They are from people whom I hold in very high regard that take serious issue with what you have written very specifically about what you claim to have done. Your reputation is very mixed inside of the teams. I have talked to people that hate you and those that say you are a good guy.

To a man, both sides have an issue with what you are doing now. Again, I'm not hating on you, and I'm truly glad. you have found the success that you have. There are those that are very vocal about this. I am not trying to be that person. When I run into people who work directly with you, who say that you clearly have not done the things you claim to have, I take issue with that.

There is no bullshitting another team guy when it comes to the exploits of one's career. I stand behind every single word that I have ever written, especially about myself. I also stand in judgment by my peers, and I am not going to shy away from the things that they say, and if they call me out, I would address it immediately, but it hasn't happened. I know that you have experience with podcast and media platforms,

but I honestly don't trust you enough to even discuss my plans with you. I have been fortunate to become close friends with some of the most influential podcasters out there, and they have already offered to help me as much as they can. I also am not trying to do anything spectacular with it. A sponsor bought me to gear, and I'm just enjoying talking to interesting people. I will end by making an assumption, and I actually hope that I am wrong. You have sound success and money post teams, and you feel justified by that success. Instead of listening to what the community is trying to consistently tell you, you ignore us because, fuck us.

We are just haters and trolls. I wish you'd be more cautious, truthful, and honest. I believe it would help you. Let me go back. I believe it would help both you and the teams. His response was, probably better to talk on the phone. He sent me his number. I've got a few hours to kill before I fly to Europe if you want to chat.

my response was yeah I'll give you call in a minute copy he wrote back we talked briefly I'm not going to go into the subject of the conversation because he's not here to discuss it with me and I do not want to portray it in any way that could be construed as inaccurate the next time I reached out to him was this year in March I want to reach out and offer a platform for discussion about the software decision to post that video being the video in Niger I've made my own thoughts known on the matter but I tried to do so with tact If you want to record a podcast episode and discuss, we should do it. I'm going to be honest about how I feel, but I'm also not trying to shotgun you.

We would need to be, we would need to do remotely, but that is no issue given the recording software available. His response was, I'm open to it, but probably should have Jack host and I can join as well. I let him and his team run the site, unless it's a national security breaking news issue, the guys don't read me in. I got out of the pool Monday morning and only then saw the traffic on the video. As the CEO, I stand behind their decision to post it. Let me know. My response was, I'd rather do something that is just you and I. Nothing against Jack.

I obviously just don't know him, and we don't share the same background. His response would have to be next week earliest. I'm in studio Thursday at 2 p.m. Remote isn't a problem for us. I'm up for a professional discussion on this issue, but not interested in any of the SEAL community drama. I left that behind me a long time ago. we'd also get into some of my we'd also get into some mental management goal setting which is the show i currently host

i row back to him i had out of town for seven days on tuesday so monday is really my only option i agree i'm interested in a professional conversation as well i agree with the right to post the video i disagree with the ethics of morals of doing so having said that opposing opinions should be able to be discussed i also agree to seal community drama. But I will also say that it should be addressed. A blanket dismissal doesn't help anything or anyone. If you're going to trade on the profession, you should be able to talk about it. Again, I am not trying to shotgun you, but I would like the conversation to be able to go where it goes and not have barriers that we bounce up against. Whether you and I agree or disagree about everything, I will still be a professional. As long as it's professional,

this is his response. As long as it's a professional discussion is all I want. I've never given a blanket dismissal. I've addressed the issue multiple times publicly. We have a set production schedule with our studio. So we'll have to schedule something when you're back. I said, sounds good, let me know the next time you have an opening. I'm back on the 20th. And I said, do you have the ability to do this outside of your studio, meaning just over the computer. I use a program called Zencaster to record the audio from my podcast when the conversation is remote. And the demands on tech could not be lower. To be clear, I want to host this on my podcast. I do not want soft rep to host this. I do not want soft rep to host this. but I'm more than willing to share with you

the complete wave files when we are done. Heard nothing from him that was in January, March. The last, is this me reaching out to him last week after listening to his podcast episode. I'm not sure if your number

is still, dot, dot, dot. I sent you a text regarding your recent podcast where you talk about me. If that is not your number, I can post it here or send it to whatever number happens to be. In essence, Feel free to say what you want about me. The podcast didn't bother me at all. Again, my issues with the accuracy and how you again flirt with it, if not directly, deviate.

Read up in this chain. I address why I didn't want Jack on the podcast. Quite simply, I don't know who he is. As for the other topics you brought up, I addressed them in my text. Now, instead of getting back to me on that text, what he did is he blocked me from Twitter. So I'm going to read to you the exact texts that I sent him to get even more clarity and precision of how I've communicated with this individual. Brandon, this is Andy Stumpf.

I had a few people pass me the podcast where you specifically talk about me and address our issues. I would assume that you would think I would be pissed listening to it, which I am not. Of course you're free to say what you want and as you end the segment with,

you stand behind your career and it speaks for itself. I take the same stance. It was what it was and it wasn't what it wasn't. And I put into parentheses, I'm referring to mine. My only issue with the segment is as usual when it comes to what you say is the accuracy. I don't know if you still have the Twitter messages we began communicating with on the DM side. I do and I'll be more than happy to share if you don't.

They address nearly everything you said, starting with Jack Murphy, who I am not afraid of but have no clue who he is, just like I said in my response to you. I have never claimed to speak for the teams, the Navy, or anyone but myself. Nearly every time on every podcast I've ever been on to include my own I make a point of saying that I speak for only myself in my experiences. On the other side of that coin, I find it interesting how you will bring up messages you receive from Gold Star families supporting your organization's posting of the Niger video,

while not addressing those that reached out publicly against it. You also do not speak for the Gold Star families, nor do the ones who supported the decisions speak for the Gold Star community as a whole. At the end of the day, I don't mind what you say about me. I mind the way in which you elude and leave gaps for listeners to make us something. You said, Andy was a dev group guy, then proceeded to talk about corruption, murder, embezzling, and drug use, all of which I had no association with and was never involved with, but of course, that is what follows my name.

If you read our exchange on Twitter, I specifically say I'm not looking for a Mori Popovich drama-filled interview, quite the opposite, actually. Of course, you leave this out as well. Talk shit to your sponsors, question mark. I don't even know who your sponsors are. Sponsors for what? The podcast, or another area of your business. And I end with, if you'd like to escalate this, I'm fine with that.

Personally, I don't have the time or the desire. All I've asked for from you, all I have asked of you from the beginning of our interactions is that you are honest. I do not feel that you are being so. And although you can quote an uninterested, no-dog-in-the-fight statement from somebody attached to your platoon, the community at large, and by that, I mean nearly every single person that I encounter that knows you personally, From those that attended buds with you to those that served with you hold the opposite opinion.

They are not haters of your success. They disagree with you. They disagree with what you are saying on grounds of accuracy and truthfulness. That is literally every single piece of interaction that I've had between Brandon Webb directly. I like to speak with clarity and precision. I'm going to say that the way he speaks is very intentional as well. and there is a reason for it. So for you, as the listener, it's up to you to make up your own mind.

And all I will ask is this. If you are a fan of his message and you are a fan of his platform, I urge you to support both. If you like the business model that he has, I urge you to support it. My ask is that if you choose to go in that direction, please just do not support the things that I have going on in any way. And that is your choice to make. but at least now you have clear and precise information with which to do so. And that's all I got on that particular topic. So let's dive into episode 53.

But before we do that, let's talk about the organization that has helped making this episode possible. Now, this episode is brought to you by your favorite sponsor, bluechew.com. So thank you to bluechew for supporting the podcast. Blu-chew.com, B-L-U-C-H-E-W dot com, has the first ever chewable. that brings your performance to another level. Now, what am I talking about? I ended the last podcast with this. Essentially, what I'm talking about is that

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stretch, use responsibly, bluechew.com, promo code hot, comes to your door, discrete packaging, explore the space. Now, on to the episode. Episode 53 is with a longtime friend Chris Spieler. Chris traditionally would be recognized from the CrossFit world. He was a very high-level athlete for a very long period of time. I met him through teaching the seminars, the CrossFit Level one seminars where we shared time together. I watched him many, many years exercising at a level that made me extremely uncomfortable for his willingness and desire to go to a dark, dark place. And at the same time, every time I would watch not only Chris, but these high level athletes work out at that level, I left incredibly motivated to go push myself even harder.

he is an affiliate owner in Park City I'm not going to say he's quite a bow hunter yet but we talked about it a little bit and I have a plan, a master plan to kind of suck him into the vortex of bow hunting and in our discussions over the years we talk a lot offline about just kind of fitness in general

and people's headspace and what they use their fitness for and we came to the conclusion that instead of constantly, at least in my opinion, questions that I guess, constantly asking or being answers, geez, constantly being asked and then answering questions about my personal training and how it has changed post-military and how I train for the outdoors, that we were going to create something together. So Chris had the idea to create an online community called grunt work, which as soon as he

told me the name, I loved it, because it's the grunt work. that makes you successful at the end of the day. It's the little things that add up over time that make people wildly successful. So we agreed to put our heads together. Chris is an amazing programmer. My interaction and hopefully my addition to the program will be specific to the outdoor things that I do.

And inside of that, specifically hunting. So it's a program for just about everybody. It can be standalone, it can be an enhancing, or in addition to the training that you do. But it's for people who want to live their life outside of the walls of the gym and that your focus on fitness is, you know, your performance outside of that gym environment. And instead of defining it anymore, we do towards the tail end of the podcast after we spend some time catching up.

And about this point in time, if you're still with me on this episode, you're probably ready to hear somebody else's voice. So I'm going to shut my face. Clear It Hot, Episode 53 with Chris Speeler. Enjoy. it. I just got back from riding dirt bikes, actually. I went out with my buddy, tried to take like a quick little midday break. And yeah, yeah, we went out to Strawberry Reservoir and cruised around there for a little bit. But, oh, what's cool? And maybe we'll save this for the podcast.

I don't know. Maybe we're doing the podcast. It's hard to say. Yeah. But last time we talked, you know how I said I was going to get a van? Yeah, I was actually going to ask you about that. Fill me in on the van. Yeah, so I am actually flying out tomorrow to pick up the van and Lee's Summit, Missouri. And the kids still don't know. And I'm going to cruise back and get back Sunday night. So I think I land around like 2.30 and then I got to go check out the van and have them show me how it all works and all that good stuff. And then, yeah, I'm just going to rally home and surprise them on Sunday with it.

So what type of van did you end up going with? Did you go with a sprint tour? Dude, I am not a research guy at all. Not one of your strengths? No, here's how I roll. Is if I need a new car, I'll just go buy a Toyota because apparently they last forever. Or I'll ask my buddy like, hey, how do you like your truck? It's great.

Okay, cool. I'll just get that one. If I need a snowblower, the last time I bought a snowblower, I walked into Home Depot and I saw the cheapest one, and the most expensive one, and I bought the one right in the middle. But this, I totally geeked out. Like, did all my research, looked to see what would be the best,

uh, maybe bang for the buck, I guess you could say, and maintenance and all that stuff. And I went with a Ford Transit. I don't know if I can say I've actually ever heard of that. Is that a boxier, like more square one?

Um, it's just like Ford's version of a sprinter van. But, Part of the reason why is, and no offense to Mercedes-Benz, I've never owned one. But I saw some reviews that it's like 50-50. You can get one that lasts forever or you can get one that is just devastating. People bought one and they broke down on their first trip across the country like three times. Well, and then you have to add to that or think about when you're looking to buy one of those things,

if you throw the Mercedes-Benz symbol up in the front of your car, when you crack the hood to do an oil change, or we actually have friends back in San Diego, they have almost positive. I could be speaking out of school, but I'm 99% sure it's a sprinter van, and the mom drives it all the time, daily use vehicle.

So they went through a set of brake pads because there's a bunch of hills by their house, and we'll just say that it wasn't cheap for the replacement. For sure. And I also read that, like, you, they'll void the warranty if they're not worked on by specific.

mechanic, it specific dealerships. And I thought, you know what, no matter where I am in the U.S., there's going to be a Ford dealership. And I'll be able to roll in there if I need to. I like it. So did you go new? So it's really cool. They have like a leasing fleet there. It's kind of their main gig is they lease a bunch of vans. So they take one of them out of their leasing cycle. It's a year old, but it only has, I think, like 20,000 miles on it. And then they take that one and build it out so you save a bunch of dough on, you know, a used van instead of a new one. Hell yeah, man. So how long is it going to take you to drive back? Oh my gosh, dude. It's the most brutal leg, leg of any drive that I've experienced. It's so devastating.

And I had to do it like two years ago to visit my sister for Thanksgiving, but it's going to take about 14 hours, which I don't mind the 14 hours. What I mind is where the 14 hours is. Is it flat cornfield? Oh my gosh. I have to go basically from Kansas City, Missouri, straight north to Lincoln, Nebraska, and hang a left at Lincoln and just drive through all of Nebraska and Wyoming and dip back down into Utah. And it is, there's like not a turn. There's not a, there's not a, Like there's not a bump in the road. It's devastating. So I'm going to have to put the mental toughness in.

Yeah. Yeah. I know the experience. We, many, many years ago, we did a, I think we took two and a half weeks and we did an RV trip starting in San Diego, went up north to Santa Cruz to visit with my parents, and then up into Yosemite, like Napa Valley area, chilled. From there, we went south, went over to Colorado. We were going to stay for, I think,

12 hours in Breckenridge. We stayed for four days because it was so amazing. Yeah. And just driving that thing up and down the hills. And then we came out and we're coming over the hills coming down into Denver. And then the hills stopped. Denver is not when people say Denver's in the mountains, that's an inaccurate statement. Well, it's, you can see the mountains. But as soon as we, yeah, when as soon as we got out of that area, Denver, I became the most boring drive I've ever done because it was the same thing. I don't know why they had mile markers. It's just corn and straight and let's just say that portion of the trip wasn't nearly as fun and then we got to the Appalachians on the east coast and then it got much better again. Yeah and when people say that

our earth is overpopulated, I think they are strongly misguided. You have never driven from like Pittsburgh to Salt Lake if you think that our world is overpopulated. It's no way. It could be overpopulated, perhaps. It's the density of the population is too high in certain areas. That'll go with. Put them in Nebraska. Put them in Wyoming. There's plenty of room. Tons of room. Well, then where's all the corn going to be? I'm telling you, there's probably plenty of room still. From what I've seen, there's still lots of room for corn. It was, yeah, it was an amazing journey. When we were driving, I mean, this was, I don't, I wasn't pre-GPS, but we were using a map book. And I was just looking on the maps,

finding campsites. Oh, yeah, like the rain and McNally. Is that what it was? Those big ones? Yes, it was. And it was awesome. And it was no problem finding ones in the mountains. But then east of Denver, it started getting a little interesting.

And we'd have to get off the freeway and drive like 10 miles south. And it would be a dirt overlook onto a stagnant swamp. It's like, oh, my God. Don't get out of the RV because the mosquitoes are going to pick up the baby. And we'll never see him again. I was trying to do my research last night. I thought, okay. I'll find like a cool spot to stop.

That doesn't exist. Like that doesn't, a cool spot to stop for me. Literally, my plan is to drive as far west in Nebraska as I can because chances are I'll probably get on the road around 6pm. So I can't push through. Otherwise,

I'll just be wrecked for like a week. So I think I found a Walmart super center that's open 24 hours that I'm just going to roll into. I was just going to tell you when you got your own bed in the car, all you need to do is find a gas station or Walmart. and sleep there until somebody knocks on the door and says you can't stay here anymore. That's exactly my plan. I found a Walmart super center in like Kearney, Nebraska.

And that's the game plan. Yeah. We recently, after we talked, I don't even think we were brought it up when we had our first conversation, but we ended up getting a toy hauler. Yes. Awesome guy named Brock reached out from Rowley White, the dealership in, or he has multiple dealerships in Arizona and ended up working out a deal where we, We now have a toy hauler and that thing is amazing.

I mean, hook it up to the bumper, rollout. I may or may not have parked and slept in some places where I wasn't supposed to and got a knock on the door at like two in the morning from the cops. It's like, hey, maybe is it okay? Hypothetically, of course, if we just were to sleep here until the sun came up because I'm pretty tired right now. It's unsafe for me to drive. Yeah, I mean, I guess I could get in the driver's seat and hook everything back up,

but I really don't want to do that. But it's been cool. We're actually going to, mid-September, myself, Barclow and Dudley are going to base our Elkhunt out of that thing. And it's going to be like the perfect living studio conditions.

There's a Traeger mounted on the back. Oh, dude. Oh, yeah. Solar on the top. It's got a gasoline tank underneath. So if you got quads or dirt bikes, like you're saying, you were just doing,

kitchen shower, like all of that cool stuff. So where we're headed is going to be. be, I don't know if it's necessarily too remote, but it's much easier to put a portable lodging facility somewhere in there. Yeah. So I affectionately call it the do awesome shitmobile and we're going to do awesome shit out of it and hunt elk.

I love it. That's, yeah. Speaking of hunting, the last time we spoke was shortly after, I'm going to call it a dominating performance at the Total Archery Challenge. Was it that long ago? Gosh, yeah. It wasn't too far afterwards. But we had discussed.

Sorry, I thought I was going back to my previous dominating performance because this one was way better. Well, it's because you cheated because in the first conversation that we had, we discussed what I considered to be a robust training protocol for you leading up to the 2018 Larchery Challenge, which included doing what you had done in the 2017 challenge, which to review was have your 20-yard pin roll up to the first target and then just send it. Correct. Which, and then, of course, we actually linked up briefly while we were both there. And you broke my heart because you told me that you basically cheated on the plan that I had spent hours putting into place for you, really just diving into what I thought your training progression was going to be. And apparently you went to the warm up range before, which I just, I can't believe it. My bow hung in my basement were 365 days and I walked up to the warm up area. Oh, yeah.

And Brian Kahl helped me cite in my bow. And it was super fun. It's way more fun when you have even a slight amount of preparation. So you already had a 20-yard pin. How many other pins were you able to sit in? We got to 50, and then the 60 was we were unsure. I actually think I only have pins. that go to 50.

So then anything at 60, I was like using the top of the bubble, the bottom of the site, you know, fully, fully guesstimating. But I got big, you have any, you have any different than 10 yards, so put them down. Do you have any idea what site you have? It's a camouflage one. Oh, perfect, yes. Camouflage. That really narrows a down.

Round, and it has pins on it. But it's not adjusting. I know that it's not adjust, like, like, that's what I was going to ask. If you could slide one of the pins for distance. Those guys have like, you know, probably you, like the little twisty knob on the side where it adjusts the whole site so you can. Yeah, I'm, I'm stuck at what at 60. That's all I got. There's, there's nothing else.

Well, it sounds like you used, like you said, the bubble, the bottom of the scope, hope, luck, goodwill. You know, all of the. So which course? did you shoot? I did Sitka, the easy one. You're joking, right? That's the hardest one on the course. That's the one. Oh my gosh. Can you hear that dinging? Because I can. Oh, that's good. Because my computer is suddenly a barrage of texter coming in. So I'll listen to the dinging while I'll explain. Yeah, so they wanted to do the sicka course, which I guess maybe was helpful. Who told you that it was the easiest one? Who lied to your face? No, I'm just being sarcastic. Because I technically

I really don't know because I've only ever shot that. So as far as I know, that's like great. You know, so maybe to my advantage I had done it before, but they change it. You know, they change like where the foam animals are. Yeah, every year I've been told. So I actually really like it. But I rolled up to the first one. And it was like some mountain goat just surrounded by boulders at 60 yards.

for the first one. Perfect. What's wrong with that? Killed it. Nailed the foam target. Got him. How many arrows did you go into the field with? I think I had...

I want to say I had six. Yeah. Which is, I'm going to just say right now, a controversial approach going in. How many did you come home with? I believe one. Hey, that's... pretty good for my training protocol.

For shooting for four hours out of the year, I'm going to say you're killing it for sure. Yeah. There was like that little crow. What was that? That little, was it a crow? Rumored to the end of it? Well, we didn't shoot that course. Yeah, we didn't shoot that course.

I shot the prime course three days in a row, which we were going to shoot the sick of course the first day. And as we were walking down there, the decision was made by others that we were going to shoot the prime course. which having never been to a total archery challenge and having never taken shots at those angles, I can't speak for the sick of course, but on the prime course, there were some severe downhill shots and some severe uphill shots. Yeah. There were at least, there had to have been $20,000 worth of arrows littered from the top of that course to the bottom. And certain targets probably had $5,000 or $6,000 of carbon fiber and metal just straight. It floated everywhere.

I heard they filled one of the gators. I heard they filled the back of it with busted arrows after day one. Just filled it. Just one day. That doesn't surprise me. I mean, literally, we were on the first group of most of the days, and they had done cleanup in between, and we would go, I would climb up to this one target.

Same thing that you're describing. There's a bed of rocks that are all white and grayish, And then there's a white and grayish sheep standing at the top of the rock with a huge rock face behind it. So just go ahead and put that sucker anywhere that's not in the foam. And I would walk up there. And there was just at about 20 yards from the actual foam animal, the pieces began. There was, you know, fledgings. There was stickers.

There was, you know, lit knocks. And they had already cleaned it up from the night. But there was just so much that they couldn't actually clean the entire thing up. It was, yeah. And then, of course, there was a pile by the cone that you have to shoot from. So you're not thinking about that at all. Like, I wonder why there's this massive pile of carbon fiber sitting right here. Shocker.

Just full carnage. Yeah. I think Easton should be there sponsoring those particular targets. And just, I'm sorry, what's your arrow length? Here you go. Here's 10 bucks. Right. Just printing money left and right out there.

Gosh. Yeah. Did you shoot with the same group you did from last year, more or less? For the most part. Yeah, it was Brian Cole, the gritty Bowman. Or as I like to call him, the manicured bowman. The less than gritty bowman.

He's got a trim and manicured beard. I believe he gets manny petties. He's probably going to get mad of me for saying this. I can imagine. I'm sure he appreciates it. So, yeah, he helped me a ton that morning with citing it in and kind of giving me some feedback on things to think about what to do. So that was really helpful.

and Cameron Haynes was there. So he obviously knows how to shoot a bow. He's done it. He's training protocol, I think it's similar to mine. Yeah, identical, I would say, especially on the amount of distance you guys spend running. Yeah. As in, I train for a marathon by not running,

and I showed up and did it the next day. Yeah. And then I was, who else was there? Oh, so Jordan was there for a little bit, but he had to scoot, his brother, they're from Mountain Ops, and then Rihanna Carey, I believe, is her name, right? I do not know. So Rihanna, I think she's like an underarmor athlete

and does some stuff with Mountain Ops. She's Bowhunter girl. And it was one of the things where I don't know all the people in that community. So I had to ask her. I was like, hey, you know, so what do you do? And she was super cool, super humble. and just said, you know, I really like to hunt. And, you know, I work with some companies and Mountain Ops is one of them.

But, yeah, she's, I think she's like big deal bow hunter. It goes out by herself and gets big animals and, you know, just like does it solo and is pretty legit. Well, now that you're an established archer, do you, yeah, obviously, as an archer, Do you think you will actually start hunting with your bow? Or what's your future progression look like? Or what do you want to do with that thing? I really want to. I really want to go on a hunt.

I've been bow hunting once in college with a buddy of mine. I went to school in central Pennsylvania. And there's a ton of hunting there. The opening day for box season is bananas. So we went once, and that was an experience that I had, which was a cool. cool. And I really would like to go. I don't know anything about hunting, though. Like, as far as, I don't know anything. You know, how to track an animal or stalk. Do you do that? Do you sit still? The way the wind's blowing, it smells you. It doesn't. You put that on. You put this on.

I clueless. So I really want to go. And I think it would be really cool to, I think the correct term harvest an animal? Is that right? Is that like, right? I mean, I think you can call it whatever you want to. I traditionally, I hear the term harvest with vegetables, and I'm pretty sure that elk don't grow out of the ground. I think some people try to try to round the edges with it a little bit, and I'm neither here nor there. I mean, the reality is you are definitely killing it. If you want to call that harvesting, cool. If not, then, I mean, also cool. But I think that's a, the soup-d-jeure term that I hear often. Yeah, because I don't know the political correct terms yet. You know, Nor do I.

Actually, I don't know if there is a politically correct term for hunting because people seem to come off the bleachers either way, regardless of how you couch it. Yeah. So what I'd like to do is get, he'll harvest, maybe like a deer and have it be something that obviously like I can have it be an experience that I was able to do to learn about. I also think it's like as maybe like an adult and not being brought up in a hunting community, I think I'm going to have maybe a harder time and more respect for going through that process and what that's like. Maybe I don't know because I didn't have that as a kid. And then I'd like to obviously provide for my family or friends in some way or another

because the reality is, you know, and this is something I think about even not as a hunter. like if I go to a grocery store and buy chicken breast to grill tonight, it's still an animal that was killed in one way or another. And if I can go through the process of doing that on my own, I think it'll just give me a greater appreciation for that process in general. I mean, I could only speak for myself, but I definitely had that sense of, how would I describe it?

There's definitely the sense of fulfillment when it comes to being involved in the process from soup to nuts and putting the work into, I mean, because first off, the hunting aspect of it is one thing. And I know we're going to talk about, you know, training and methodologies and stuff later on because that's to me, and you and I've had these kind of conversations offline. I mean, I think almost it was yesterday the day before. It's like if you're consistently training, you don't have to worry about an off season. Sure. You know, but that, that training that you do leading up to the hunt is, is just as important. But I found that huge sense of fulfillment by being involved in all stages from, you know, the, like you said, the stalking, the actual killing of the animal. And then, you know, that's also just the beginning of it, because then you have to either process the animal yourself or get it somewhere where somebody can process it.

Then you got to go get the meat. But then the cooking of the meat is another really fulfilling aspect of it that I, that I didn't realize I was going to enjoy so much. So the hunting part was great, but I also like not having to go to the grocery store and buying meat. And I know for a lot of people, that's the only option they have. And I have no issue with people who choose not to hunt,

but for people who want or are looking for a way of potentially sourcing meat outside of the grocery store. And if you have that option, I think it's a great one. Because, you know, it's not all traditional factory farming is awesome. Yeah. That's probably the politest way that I. can put it. Yeah. And yeah, so I am really curious to see about it. And it's funny, I hadn't

thought about that. Like, I knew just from college, you know, my buddies would take their, like, whatever, if they kill the buck or, you know, deer, whatever, they would take it to them. It was always kind of like the same guy and they would talk about how they were going to, you know, use this for like, kind of like a venison sausage or something that they were going to do for breakfast. this for kind of, you know, like hashing it out. They get all fired up on what they would be able to use the meat for. And then, you know, a week later or whatever it was, they would have it in their fridge and stuff.

And it was interesting, but I haven't thought about, like, the actual preparation of the food before. That's got to be, like, not weird, but kind of maybe satisfying or just, like, appreciating the fact that, like, you saw that animal. and you put in the work and the time and the energy, the respect to take its life and then actually like use it in that manner and provide for your family. That's got to be eye opening, right?

It's eye opening and it actually gave me a better appreciation for cooking. I like, you know, say you go to like Costco, there's one right down the street. And they apparently sell mayonnaise in two liter bottles because that's what you need for mayo, ketchup and mustard. A minimum of two liters. Yeah. A minimum of two liters for the zombie apocalypse. But then, you know, if you go to the meat aisle, I mean, my God, I think the smallest serving they have might be like two pounds.

I'm sure they have a one pound, but it seems to me I'm always like, okay, 18 pounds of tri-tip. All right, that's. Can I get another perk here? Yeah. But you cook all that. And what's been interesting is if I go and buy, say we go to Costco and buy a thing a tri-tip, I don't. mind as much if it doesn't all get eaten and then sits in the refrigerator for a while and at some point it's going to go bad right i have a completely different perspective on pulling out an elk

roast from you know park city near very near where you live in cooking that thing and my kids be like okay daddy i'm done i'm like well you're done when those three more bites of elk are off your Completely gone. Because you're not throwing that in the garbage because guess what? Let me go show you the backpack that I carry that out of the mountains with. And it just gave me a different appreciation for not only making sure you use all the food, but then I'm more interested in cooking because the flavor profile is different. A lot of people I hear are concerned about a gaminess in taste, which I have not experienced

yet with the variety of animals that I've been very fortunate to go hunting for. I haven't had anything where it's like, oh, wow, this is really gamey. But it definitely is different. There are different flavors and there's things that you can pair with it that kind of enhance that. So it's been eye-opening, again, and in a lot of different avenues that I wasn't expecting going into it. It's been very cool. But you live in a great spot to go hunting. Yeah, I've heard that the Lossach is kind of renowned for elk and meal deer and things like that.

And it's, yeah. Well, I almost hit three mule deer going across the road. on the way to the archery challenge. I saw three of them riding my dirt bike today. Yeah, three of them. Well, talk to, I mean, I don't know, I mean, I know Brian is local, isn't he? I would talk to him. That's kind of the goal is I want to try to set up a hunt with him, but I don't know if I, like,

missed the boat on the hunting tags or I don't know how that works. So I'm going to talk to this. Well, you're a resident, so that might help, but I mean, I can't speak to the, I can barely speak to the tag situation here in Montana, but you definitely, if it's anything like Montana, like we had our tags in. think in April. Oh, wow. Yeah, you've got to be Johnny on the spot and you have to.

I'm sure there's areas in Utah where you can just get an over-the-counter. But there may be areas where he would want to hunt where you have to put it in for a draw. Yeah. So it's not a guarantee. But I would hit him up, hit him up now for next year's season and then put it on your calendar. So that way it doesn't slip away because otherwise it will. Gotcha. I thought you could do whatever you wanted in Montana, just like it's the land of the north.

In some areas you can. But there are some areas here. area called the Missouri breaks, which I have never been to, and I know almost nothing about other than people talk about it when it comes to difficulty of drawing a tag to actually hunt there. So I don't know if they got dinosaurs walking around in there, or it's rivers, yeah, rivers flowing with unobtainium. I don't know what the deal is, but apparently your odds of drawing a tag are basically slim to none, and there's people who've been putting in tags for, And I don't know how accurate this is, but I've heard people saying they've been putting in tags for 10 to 12 years, which is a really, really long time to wait.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I'm assuming they can get tags somewhere else. Yeah. Yeah. But other than that, like I can get a deer tag. It's like a guarantee as a resident.

It's much cheaper as a resident because last year I hunted on a non-resident tag and was $1,000 for an elk and deer combo tag. Wow. Yeah. And there's some restrictions. But I mean, I think it's because of the. And again, maybe I'm sorry. speaking a little bit out of school, but it certainly seems pretty plentiful, especially on the deer side of the house. And they make a lot of their money off those non-resident tags.

And the tag process actually feeds the revenue for the conservancy. Sure. So there's a lot that goes into it. The more money they make, actually, I think the better the animal population will do because they'll have more money to pay people to take care of it and at least track at least. Sure. So, damn, so you got a you got a little road trip planned up. What else is going on? How did you have CrossFit games withdrawal, not competing?

No, I actually, I didn't at all. Someone after that, I was, I didn't at all. So you've made it through. You've made it through the tunnel now. You're no longer an addict to exercise. I like what I'm hearing. Well, that may be a different term. I mean, I definitely, I definitely need my workout time, you know.

but as far as the need to compete in that area anymore, no, not no interest at all. I mean, really, actually, as a first year, I have not been to the CrossFit Games ever in some form or fashion, whether it was competing or supporting an athlete or whatever. We had a master's athlete there, but he's a big guy and knows how to do it on his own because he's been to the Olympics before, so he obviously knows how to handle high stress situations. So yeah, I didn't go. And it was actually really refreshing. Part of it is because we were visiting Sarah's family on the East Coast.

We had the kids back there and that kind of bumped into that. But it was also there just kind of came a time where I didn't buy tickets soon enough. Some of the people that I work with, you know, Rogue and Reebok, I didn't push and ask if they needed me to do anything. They didn't reach out to me. So I just kind of let it sit. And before you know it, it was here. And I just thought, you know, I'll just kind of watch it from home. And it was great.

Yeah, I've actually found myself in the same boat. I went, there has been maybe one or two years that I've missed since the inception. One of those was for military obligation, which is kind of tough to get around. But this year, kind of the same thing. I have a couple brands that I work with. And I didn't, they didn't really reach out and I didn't really push. And it got to the point where it was going to kind of be too late. And it was refreshing.

I mean, I have, I, it's, I always walk away. from that place motivated, just seeing the level of output and capacity that those athletes have and the drive and the desire and, quite frankly, the willingness to put themselves into a painful situation that I no longer have. I'm done. I mean, I used to have that, I think, but at this point, as, I mean, I'll probably be dead two or three years from old age. The point being, it's different.

And it was actually pretty refreshing to step back. I didn't even know who had won. I was actually flew. Wow. I took my son, my middle son to Dudley's house. You didn't get a chance to meet Dudley. We're in, uh, I met him at my first experience of the Toa Archery Challenge. Cool.

So I took my- He probably doesn't remember me, but I remember him. Uh, yeah, but I mean, he towers, he towers above. He might, he might have lost you. Yeah, he's a, he's a large man. He is. That's probably why I remember him. Yeah.

Are you taller or shorter than Bridges? Oh, man. we are in a tight race for the height. But he's got me, he's got me with the LBs. He's about, I would say, he's probably about 30 pounds heavier than me. But we're close to the same height. Because I posted, we did a podcast while I was out at Deli's. He stopped by and grabbed a bow.

Hopefully I'm going to suck him into this archery vortex as well. Nice. We should all go out. We should. Bridges and I, it might actually be something where I could beat him at shooting. Come on. 60-30 odds is what I'm going to give that. Those are not good odds.

I mean, I do have more experience shooting a bow than Josh Bridges. So Josh, if you're listening, if he practices for like four more hours, he's going to have you. I don't care. Right now at this point in time, Josh Bridges, if you're listening, I challenge you to an archery competition. The only rule is you can't touch your bow for 365 days, and I won't touch mine. and then we'll see who that's better. Well, if we're going to eventually hunt, I don't think it's a good idea,

but you guys not touch it for 365. I need to get you guys on a robust training. Shoot 12 arrows a day. Like, start there. Do you have a block? I got to find a place to do that. I actually have a block. I do.

But my, like, where my house is? I'm in a neighborhood. Yeah, me too. I just don't tell my neighbors. We don't have a fenced-in yard. And I'm kind of like on this turn. And we sit above other houses. And if, man,

If I let one go, who don't let one go then. Yep. Accuracy. Got to have it. Yeah. Pressure situation. You're going to be so better prepared to just dominate bridges in the pressure

cooker situation because right past your target is obviously your neighbor's kitchen. So you have that. Where they are cooking. You have that on the back of your mind at all times. Yeah. Josh doesn't have that. I'm coming for you, Bridges. Yeah.

Well, actually, I asked you guys about your height because when I posted. I reposted. Dudley did one with he and I reposted it. In the description, I said it was the tallest archer and the shortest archer. And I wanted to make, yes, oh, that's right. You loved very much the stepbrothers poster that Dudley created. Oh my gosh. It was so funny. Please tell me that in that I'm actually going to pull it up right now because it, to me, had the appearance that you were standing and he was sitting. But are you both standing? well it's photoshopped so who knows i know but i will say though i haven't seen you in a while when i saw you uh at um the tallartry challenge this year it had been a while maybe like the last thing we did was you know uh it looks like he's sitting yeah but at any rate his head looks huge but i thought to myself i was like wow Maybe he looks really tall. I've been the exact same height.

I mean, I've known you for over 10 years. I've been the exact same height the entire time. No big deal. As I'm high. Yeah. Maybe I'm getting shorter. It's possible. I know I'm not getting taller.

Yeah. My spine's just been compressed that much. Yeah. You know, it's cool sitting down with Josh, too. Like, just, I mean, you're infinitely familiar with how your body feels right after. He drove to Dudley's house Monday morning, re-recorded the podcast, Tuesday morning. So I would, I would actually imagine that your soreness is probably increasing at that time period, 48 hours post. We had trashed. Yeah, we had a good conversation about just kind of training in general. And Dundley was talking about kind of his perception of CrossFit. And I've actually heard, he said it a few times. He doesn't really think that the CrossFit methodology is necessarily for him. And I have, you know, I've known him for a while now. And I've actually never, I mean, I've meant.

to talk to him about it, and we did talk about it a little bit on that podcast. But it's, it's, and I know you and I have talked about this too, it's amazing to me how effective the CrossFit Games has been at putting a perception in people's minds that is, in my opinion. And again, this is all, everything I'm saying is just my opinion, so don't freak out CrossFit headquarters. How different the perception is between, you know, I think John, may look at what Josh does or what the games athletes do and say that is what CrossFit is in comparison to what CrossFit, the actual traditional programming and the scaling and the modification that

people like you are still doing on a daily level at an affiliate gym. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And I think it, I think it may, you know, to their credit in a way, I think it happened unintentionally. You know, it just grew so fast and so quickly. And obviously they want to highlight these athletes. And it's inspiring to watch and see and people want to watch it. You got to give the people kind of what they want. And, you know, it just took this on this shape, just like you said, that I think unintentionally turns into this perception of what CrossFit has to be for everyone. And I can see them doing a lot to try to shift and change that with like, I think they started.

this kind of branch CrossFit Health. I just started hearing about that. I saw a video of Pat Sherwood. Yeah. Now, you know, not announcing anything other than why he wasn't at the games. And he mentioned CrossFit Health.

So I actually just called him up. I was like, hey, man, what is this all about? Yeah. And it's funny to me in a sense that, one, I think it's great.

But it's also funny because I feel like that is kind of coming full circle. That's really what CrossFit's about. You know what I mean? Like the CrossFit health side of things that they're trying to push now. Like,

really is the 99%. And I would also say that I, and again, my opinion in one way I look at the methodology is it's what it was always meant to be. Yeah. I don't think they ever necessarily tried to deviate from that. I think that the interjection of competition, which is also what they were looking for, you know, when we used to give the, you know, the what is fitness lecture talking about it's, you know, you go to the hopper and you pull out all these things.

Well, then they created that hopper literally and figuratively for the games. And I think, again, for 99% of people, and I was talking to, or telling Dulley about that, like, that would be the exact opposite approach that you would take, especially to bringing somebody in. I mean, you'd kill them straight up. You'd at least send them to the hospital with Rabda. Like, okay, we're going to start this first weekend. Your intro is going to be eight workouts. Yeah, it'll be eight workouts. We're going to start with a max deadlift, bench press and back swat.

Yeah. And then. But, yeah. But it was funny because DLDDley was talking about a workout that he had done. He said he went to a, I think it was a college. And the gym wasn't open. So he was like, oh, cool, I'm going to get something in anyway. So he would run a lap on the track, max pullups, max pushups, run a lap, you know, five rounds.

I was like, dude, you just described traditional. Yeah. But it's that the misconceptions. I think, you know, the success of the games is also the largest misconception people have about the program. I mean, it's, I don't know about you, but when people talk to me about it, most of the time, they, they either say, hey, what is CrossFit or I'm not doing that because of? And then I spend my time at least trying to explain to them that my experience has been different than what they're seeing on TV. Yeah, I've dealt with that to you in the sense, especially that I had the pleasure of being there. And, you know, I was one of those guys that totally latched on to the competitive side.

So I fed into that in a way. And it was something that I really enjoyed. And I was part of that competitive culture for a long time. But it's been really refreshing to step back and shift my train of thought into why I do it, having my training served me and not just totally own me. Because in the past, training serving me was to try to win the CrossFit games, which meant that it was essentially my job. You know, it's just you're constantly training.

training. But now it's kind of going back to what you said earlier, the training that I do is really just there so that I can do whatever the heck I want. And that could be go, you know, my buddy asked me if I want to ride dirt by today and I say, hey, sure. And you and I go for a hunt in two months and I'm like, sure. I don't, I don't have to prepare for it because I just train for life, right? And I train to do things. Yeah. A general state. Yeah, a general state of preparedness or the GPP that they used to talk about. General physical preparedness. Yeah, and I think there's so much value to that.

And I'm getting more and more passionate about helping people find that for themselves and what that looks like and how that can serve them and how that happens. It's just a really cool segment of the, I guess you could call it fitness world to help people understand. I mean, I think it falls into that category. You know, John asked Josh a question that I found interesting, and I also found his answers. A couple of them were interesting. And I'll ask you the same one, but it's five exercises that you'll never stop doing.

Like the five go-to that are going to be part of your training program, regardless of what it is. Actually, I shouldn't say regardless of what it is your training for. I'd say just for general conditioning. Like, what are five staples that you'll always do? One, if you're talking, you can use any object to do this, a thruster. Yeah, because it's world's least favorite exercise. And for people listening who don't know what it is, it is a front squat, like Chris just said, but it could be with a dumbbell or a kettlebell or a barbell or if you really want to make your life miserable,

sandbag all the way down, break parallel with your hips, drive it all the way to the standing position, lock your arms out overhead and repeat until you want to throw up. Yeah, like you can do it light, can do it heavy. They're just so good. So that, although I really dislike it, I used to do a lot. I think it is, I think running is like, I think it's important. And if I had to have it, you know, we're talking no bikes, no rowers. You got to run.

You know, you just have to in some way or another. Yep. I have to have five of them. Yeah, I want five things that you think are like just four, just five core exercises for a well-rounded conditioning program. Pull-up? He said pull-up as well. Your first two were unique to his.

Yep. I would also, so you got thruster. You have pull-up, set, run, two more I can choose from. We'll also say some kind of, deadlift or like ground to shoulder movement, you know? Yep. So that's four. And then five, I'm going to go back to the old body weight.

I would probably toss in there a burpee. He put that in there as well. Imagine that. Well, yeah, you short little bastards don't mind doing those things because your arms and legs are a combined length of 12 inches. I'm surprised he didn't just say thrusters and burpees and thrusters and burpees and heavy back squats he's a freak you know what his number one was that really surprised me was riding a bike like not an aerodyne bike but just biking oh really i didn't know i was allowed to choose like a piece of equipment like that well it's riding a it could have been a huffy doesn't have to be like a piece of equipment doesn't have to be like a rogue echo bike no but i mean the most thing you're awesome the more i thought about it he's like yeah

You know it could be aerobic. It could be anaerobic. It's super low impact, which I agree with. So, yeah, I mean, it made sense. I'll tell you what. I'm swapping out the running for the bike because I, running trashes my knees and back now. So I'm biking with bridges. Yeah.

Yeah. And you guys still wouldn't be able to keep up with Dudley walking because his gate is like 14 feet per step. Murderous to keep up with in the backcountry. Just like look for ways to try to trip him. So let's dive a little bit more into the, let's dive more into the training thing, man, because you and I have been kicking around an idea for some time, which to me,

I mean, you approached me with the idea and I liked it because it emulates or, it doesn't emulate because it's not something that I created. It mirrors the way that I kind of look at training now, which is in step in or correct me, but there's there's the traditional aspect of training where I'm going to call that more linear in the sense that there's barbells and there's weights and there's things that provide what I'm going to call a linear or static resistance because 95 pounds is 95 pounds on the barbell I guess you could grab it like all the way over to one side but that would be super weird I don't recommend people do that at all but if you do please send us a video oh my god yes as it as it cartwheels over and goes through your car window but I do a lot of that Like my main strength and conditioning occurs in places where there is a barbell. Where there is, I have an echo bike in my garage. I hate that thing.

I curse that bike. I have a rower, a pull-up bar. But if you look at it all, it's all super linear. The dumbbells weigh exactly the same. And then I, for me, my life is spent, you know, especially up in Montana now, vastly outside. And I've seen a lot of things outside, but I've never seen a barbell. I've never seen a perfectly milled piece of steel and seven foot length of the collars on either side out just around. Shocker.

Maybe at the dump once, but I don't really call that the outdoors. But I look at, you know, but you have to have capacity, right? You need to have some strength. You need to have endurance. But there's other things that you need to add to that. In my opinion and in my experience that's going to make you more capable and competent. in an environment that's going to challenge you with things that aren't as linear. And the best examples that I have from the last, I've been, in August 24th, I head up to Alberta with Dudley.

So that'll be my one year of bow hunting. And from what I've seen so far in my robust career, which spans currently like 354 days, is that there's a stark lack of those linear things. it's up and down. You have weight on your back, almost always. And actually the weight is going to increase as the day goes on if you have a successful hunt because like I was telling you at the beginning, like you get an animal on the ground. It's not like it, well, it is high fives and, you know, take some pictures.

But then after that, I mean, and then, oh, hey, by the way, we're seven miles from the road. So, yeah, get your backpack out. We're going to cut this thing up into pieces. And then you're going to carry it out. And sometimes, you know, I was looking at, I was thinking back on the elk that I had a successful elk hunt last year. And I had, I'm pretty sure I was able to put in my backpack a front quarter and a rear quarter. And then I was carrying the back straps in a bag in my hand and my bow in the other hand. Wow. That's so awkward.

It's super awkward. And of course, I wasn't walking on flat ground. It was a little bit of up and down. And there was, you know, potholes, not from cars, but just from traffic. animals and rocks and runoff and all of that stuff. And I found that that was kind of a weak part in my game. So I changed my training afterwards. And in addition to doing the linear training, it became a lot more, I want to call it an odd object because they're not odd. It's just a nonlinear or an object that allows the weight to shift. So my body has to compensate for it.

And I also added as the season gets closer, I don't do it year round, but I added as the season gets closer, weight on my back and just more miles on my feet. Sure. Which is why when you explain to me what you were thinking about and a protocol that is specifically targeted and designed for that, I was like, yes, I'm all in. Let's do this. And since it was your idea, I'm going to let you describe it because I will probably mess it up. Sure. So, you know, whether I think we look at the CrossFit world or traditional fitness or outdoor fitness, I think there's so much to be gained from what you're saying with generally

stuff that we do see every day. And like, we do see functional movement like you're talking about those controlled environments with a barbell or dumbbells. We do see movements. Those apply exceptionally well, right? But also, we can still fill in the gaps. giving ourselves an opportunity to do things, which typically what we tend to call it, and which I do think it is, is just grunt work. So grunt work falls under this category of generally like carrying objects, that could be on your back, it could be, you know, what we might say on the front rack or your chest or down by your hips, it can be farmers carry, so they're in your hands, it can be overhead. There's all sorts of varieties. It also tends

it involve like sled drags or pushes. So you're doing some form of drag, some form of push, and then having it surrounded by just some really simple pieces. So lots of carries, lots of sandbag work. And there's a lot of athletes. Are you killing your dog in the background? Oh my gosh. It's my dog who wants to go out.

Let your dog out, dude. Hey, Avi, come here. Chill out. I have a black lab. I was hoping you couldn't hear him. He's like the most sensitive dog. Here he comes. Abby, chill out, buddy.

Sled bulls. Sled pushes. Get back into it. Sled bulls, sled pushes. There's all sorts of variations and varieties. And what we see, we even do this with some of the other programming that I do, is we program that we program that sporadically throughout the year and depending on what time of year it is. And then in the CrossFit world, you see them put these athletes through this stuff. like bridges having to do the yoke carry at the end.

You know, that's grunt work, having a carry like that. Or having to drag that I think they had the guys dragged like a dummy across the, across a field and then run through an obstacle course. And they had to do it wearing a weight vest. That's grunt work. So you see people put it in sporadically, but it has crazy value for exactly what you're saying, is your body has to adjust and compensate to moving. an object that isn't built in like a controlled environment, like a barbell where it sits on you

perfectly. But a sandbag, like you said, it moves around. You have to compensate for that. So usually weights that on a barbell might feel really light or manageable feel way heavier or way harder to manage in a sandbag form. So I really wanted to create an opportunity for people to do this where it's a way harder. It's a really low barrier to entry. You don't need much equipment.

You could literally go to a Home Depot and buy everything you need to do the Grunt Work program. You could make a sled. You can get a sandbag. Go down the street to like a secondhand shop and get yourself a set of dumbbells. Have a rope or a toe strap and you're like you are good to go. And it's so valuable because I was actually having a conversation with Sherwood the other day too. We were talking about athleticism and all that stuff and the CrossFit games.

He's like, you know, because he comes from the same background as you in the Navy. And he just kept coming back to this concept of like, you know, everything that I've experienced, this is going to pat you. It doesn't require a 300 pound snatch. But what it does require is carrying a 100 pound sandbag X amount of distance or miles or dragging this from here to there or picking up this awkward object and just kind of putting your head down and doing the work and getting in that kind of grunt work.

So I thought, man, what a cool way to give people an experience with that where they could have it be like you said, either a supplemental program to like what you do where you do kind of this core thing and then throw this in or have it be a standalone program. Great for people to do. And the way that we have it set up is the workouts are lists online. you sign up for the workouts, they're listed online, and then next to each movement that's listed is just an image so you know exactly what it is or how to do it.

It's nothing you have to learn how to do. You don't have to go to like a personal trainer and figure out how to do it. And you just put your head down, go to work. And it's really crazy valuable, and it makes people really strong. It conditions them really well. And there's, you know, truthfully,

a little bit of like mental toughness, which I think is really valuable. Yeah, I can see the benefit to mental toughness. Tell me more. Maybe. I like Pat's analogy. I hadn't, or realization perhaps, not analogy. Yeah, there's a, I'm trying to think here, what a 300 pound snatch really, you know,

I'd actually, I would actually say the pursuit of a 300 pound snatch and the achievement of it could potentially put you at a physical detriment at our old job, just because the amount the time that you would have to dedicate to it and the way you'd have to structure your training. Sure. I didn't think of that. Yeah. I don't know that it necessarily would. I think that there's a potential that it would. Because if you're snatched at 300 pounds, yeah, you're spending a lot of time doing that. And I agree with him. It's, you know, it was, you're going to wear this really heavy backpack and this really heavy body armor for 48 hours. And there's only, that's why I love the name

grunt work, because although grunt is a traditional term, I would say, associated with the army, the type of work that those individuals that consider themselves grunts or call themselves grunts, from an outside perspective, I would describe it as miserable. And there's a lot of growth to come from that work. Like if you look at buds, buds is a grind. And I tell people all the time that it's like sandpaper. You know, if you can do, if you take like a piece of sandpaper, if you rub it across your knuckles, everybody can do that one time.

It may not be fun. I mean, actually, if it is fun, you should probably go seek help. Yeah, something's wrong. Yeah. It's going to be painful, but you're going to be able to tolerate it once. And the difference between people who make it through buds and people who don't is that the ability to wipe it across your hand 180 times, regardless of how much it sucks, is really that separation. And that separation largely can be encapsulated in that mental toughness discussion

or philosophy or the approach that you take. Because I do believe you can actually, you're born with a certain amount, but you certainly can enhance it. But yeah, it makes sense. I hate the fact that Sherwood is as intelligent as he is. I wish I had more negative things to say about him. But unfortunately, they're all positive. What a punk. Yeah. What would you say would make you stronger in total? If you only could do thrusters with a 95-pound barbell or only could do thrusters with a 95-pound sandbag.

Sandbag. I did them in my driveway on this past weekend, and they are just hard. It's so much hard. It's so much hard. It's a hundred and thirty-five pound. And for people listening, if you, if you're wondering about why we would, you know, because people like, oh, maybe maybe somebody like, oh, 95 pounds isn't that heavy. And on a barbell, I agree with you. It's not that heavy as long as I'm doing one rep, which is my normal rep

scheme, regardless of the weight. And moving it slowly. Yeah, whoa. I mean, it's like a 10 second down, 20 second up with a pause before going overhead. But get a 95 pound sandbag. Do a set of 10, 95 pound thrusters and a set of 10, 95 pound sandbag thrusters. The first set being with a barbell. And it's, eye opening the difference. Yeah. But it's so like the sandbag stuff and the carries, it's just, and it's not like a one-off effort. It's just something that I think people leave out because we're accustomed to having a place

to go to work out, a place to train to work out. And what do they provide? They provide this controlled environment, which is great. I mean, people get crazy fit there. Yeah. Well, they have all that stuff too. They have all the linear stuff that we were talking about. Right.

But because of that, I think most train programs forget to add in things like the carries and the drags and the variations of those things and moving sandbags and using movements with that. And what it does is it forces you both kind of like mentally to adjust because your brain's got to figure out how to balance this. Because man, when I was doing it, the sand kept slopping around inside the bag. And one set, you know, sand was kind of toward the middle. And then it'd fall to the outside. So the next set felt kind of different. And it's just so unruly. And it gets so much harder to control that object.

So now you're using both like your large muscle groups but also all these small muscle groups to try to stabilize. And you're trying to kind of process through this in your brain. How do I move this most efficiently? And for whatever reason, man, I don't know what it is. I breathe so much harder when all that stuff. is going on. You know, I do 10 thrusters with a sandbag and I'm puffing and puffing like crazy compared

to doing it with a barbell with the same loading. It's just such a different response. But I mean, also how similar to what you're talking about when you throw on a pack with, you know, awkward loading. You can't

load that evenly. You have your bow in one hand and then heavy weight in another hand. It's like you have to adapt. You have to have to adjust. And I think it's great. You can make it work without training that stuff. But like I'm saying, from my own personal experience, it's so much better to be prepared for that environment than arrive in that environment and go, oh, no. I wish I would have done some of this in the off season, which like we also said, you don't have to have an off season. I would say that

there could be a competitive season if you're into the exercise realm or whatever it might be. or whatever discipline you're doing. But for me, I look at, like, essentially, late August, early September is my go time. And it's funny, you know, you're looking at doing some hunting stuff. You're going to have a very limited windows. It's going to be a couple of months. And then you're like, ah, damn it, I don't have anything to do. Well, yeah, you do.

You can train for life or you can train for your season, whatever you, whatever your season may choose to be. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be complicated. And that's, like, really what I think it's more effective if it's not. Yeah. I think the easiest, I mean, probably the worst workout. I still hate it to this day is Fran. It is the simplicity.

I know you can do like eight times in a row with your eyes closed and doing handstands. But for people not listening, it's a simple rep structure. It's a couplet, two exercises. It's a thruster, which we already talked about is that front squat to overhead press. And then pull-ups. And you do 21 thrusters. However, you can get through 21. 21 pull-ups, 15, 15, 9, and 9.

And it's not hard. I mean, let's be honest, it's not complicated. You're fighting against gravity or pulling against gravity. And the faster you go and the better you get at it, the more it hurts. Yeah. Yep. And I think if you added other things in there, like, oh, okay, let's do this exercise. Or you added a complex motor movement in there that took more time.

It would be easier. Right. Slows you down a little bit. Yeah. And the thing about grunt work that I like is kind of taking those applications. And also, like, you know, the way that. it we're setting up the programming is I actually think it's really fun too it's like it's hard but it's really fun to take a sandbag and throw it on your back and see how far you can get

a mile in with you know how how long does a mile take you run with the sandbag can you run with it do you have to walk with it find different variations and we even put in two days of rucking which you know you talked about doing that part of the year but four of the days are kind of like these, what you might call mixed modality or you have different movements in there that have the carries, the pushes, maybe some burpees and, you know, really simple stuff. And the other two days are just going for a hike with a backpack and getting that time under tension or underloading in some form or fashion. And I think for a lot of people, that can be really refreshing mentally as well. can be really tough, but getting outside the gym and doing that stuff, taking your dogs with you

or doing whatever that is, I think there's a lot of value to that because it's not just your standard, you know, get stuck in the confines of the gym, which is fine, but to be able to create an opportunity to get outside the gym, put your fitness to use, and also build fitness. What a great mental break, too. I agree. But we also need to probably talk about what your definition of fun is if you think it's putting a sandbag on your shoulders and doing a mile. Oh, it's, it is fun. Come on. Yeah, it is fun.

I'm not saying I won't do it. I'm just saying that I'm not going to be like ho-hum, bubblegum, bubblegum smile on my face while it's happening. I'll do it because of what it does for me, not because I'm like, oh, hey, guys, I got it. I got some time. Let's have some fun. And by that, I mean, throw a sandbag on my shoulder. Okay. You're a psychopath.

I agree. I got my wife to do it this weekend. It was awesome. We've got this big loop. or, you know, we live on a leap and she wanted to jump in and she just took the same sandbag that I had, I had to pick it up for her, but I put it on her back and she walked around the block with it. It's great. Yeah, well, and let's be clear to you, you don't have to start with a 100 pound sandbag. You can literally fill up a 15 pound sandbag, and I would actually

probably recommend you do that. Start off slow and... Start manageable. Yeah, incrementally bring yourself in. The dragging and the pushing, why do you feel that's so important? I think that there's a couple things, kind of like Bridges said, there's some real benefit because there's no impact right um when you start thinking about like super repetitive movements and doing things like super high repetitions on a frequent basis you just not that it's going to happen tomorrow but you do run the risk of um just over training or overuse and then if you have that happen then you can run the risk of potential injury but dragging and pushing what it does slows you down a little bit because you are using weight

right um a lot of it's what's called concentric so that's like the movements where um your muscles are contracting they're not lengthening uh so it tends to keep people from getting like really banged up and sore but it also gives us the benefit of having some kind of loading on our system um can help with explosive power because you guys can load up a sled or a uh you know push it or pull it really heavy for short distances, which can be awesome for like high power, like really explosive power, or you can change it up and, you know, throw a really lightweight on the sled or the prowler and go longer distance, you know, 90 minutes or 60 minutes or 30 minutes, whatever. And I think those are often the missed pieces that people usually don't do.

And like we talked about, man, what application it has to someone going out for a long hike upper ridge. It's just so, so beneficial for leg strength and there's no loading on your back, which is kind of nice to give your system a break from other things. They just have a lot of benefit that I think people miss out on. And there's a huge difference, even in what it feels like, between a heavy prowler and a light prowler for distance. It's almost, yeah, it's, you're using the same piece of equipment, if you want to call it that, but my goodness, does it feel completely different. Yeah, yeah.

And like one of the things, I grabbed one too because you, what's cool is we're going to have with the site, we're going to have a place where people can essentially will have links set up where they could purchase all their gear that they could need through Rogue or go to Home Depot, like I said. And I just got a wheelbarrow, like the bin of a wheelbarrow, Not the, you know, that's it. Just like get the metal part of the wheelbarrow.

You can put whatever you want in that thing and just drag and push that around. Probably slides really well, doesn't it? Totally. It's great. And you can get so fit by doing something like that and freak out your neighbors when you walk around the street with the wheelbarrow tied to you. I don't know, man. I mean, yeah, I dig it. Like I said, I think the biggest thing that gets in people's way, one is they fight their own momentum.

You know, people lose the momentum of working out often, so they're hesitant to get started. And then beyond that is thinking that it has to be complex. And that's why I think I like it so much. It's, I mean, for people who, people ask me all the time. Still, like I'll do, I used to do more Q&A podcast, but I've just had quite a few guests lined up. Yeah. But when I'll put out on social media, you know, what questions do people have? At a minimum, at a minimum, three to five, how do, how did I used to train or how do I train now?

And yeah, that's what was, I mean, for one, it helps me answer those questions. And for clarity, when it comes to the programming side of the house, I'm going to say that's largely, I mean, that's you because you do the programming. I was stoked that you wanted my input on, I would say, the austere portions of that and what I do to implement. And that's what I am going to try to, you know, and not enhance, but bring to the site is my experience from, you know, being outdoors and what I do to train for a competency outdoors because, and I will say this, for people who make their living outdoors or they have an activity that they like to do outdoors, I certainly recommend that you train in those modalities. But for people who don't do that, like for me, I look at this. If you were to ask me, I would call this hunting training. But if you're not a hunter, I still think there's huge benefit

to doing this type of training, even if you're not a hunter because of all the stuff you've already talked about, the different muscle groups or the different skills that you're going to develop. from the weights that aren't as crazy linear. So largely, I think, going to be you. I'm going to try to throw some little hunting expertise in there. And I think it's going to be pretty well-rounded. Yeah. And it's easier than answering the question of what I do for training now.

I can just say, hey, this is what I'm doing. Yeah. And it's just like in the weird, we've talked about this before. It doesn't have to be fun to be fun. It's kind of like that. And it'll get people, I think, a different look. It's going to be really inexpensive in the grand scheme of things. It's less than 15 bucks a month.

We're going to have it be really community-oriented. So we'll have a private group Facebook page set up where people can get on there and kind of share their experiences with one another and I'll be on there and help and answer any questions, giving people feedback, just being there to try to instill that community because that's a really important part, knowing that people are doing it alongside of you and you're not just there on your own. So that's going to be a really cool aspect of it as well. And for the first 250 people that sign up,

we're actually going to give away some gear so they can put it to use. We're going to give them a, it's called a slice sled from rogue, so it acts as like a prowler or a dragging sled so you can push or pull it. I was so hoping you were going to say a Home Depot bucket that they go. Oh my gosh, so much worse. We're going to do a set orange bucket.

Yeah, an orange bucket. We're going to do like a strong man sandbag that's really cool. You can load a different stuff and a $100 road gift card. So we just want to foster that community and give people a chance to experience this and do it with one another and have it facilitate their lifestyle. Like get out and use it. Like train every day so you can get out and use your fitness and seek out that adventure and not have to prepare for it, but be prepared. for it always. Fitness is like freedom, man.

If you don't use it, I just don't think it has much value. 100%. Yeah. And there you go. That's the best ending ever right there. That was done. Perfect.

I'll put up the links to the website. And yeah, we'll have to, let's link up again another couple months and talk about how it's going. That's all I have for this week, ladies and gentlemen. I apologize for the long opening that took a while to get into the episode itself,

but I think the topic is important. And it gave me, or what happened, gave me the perfect opportunity to highlight the things that I was concerned with that people often ask about. And I will reinforce what I said at the beginning. Make your own mind up. Choose the path that you want to choose. I have no issue with either direction that you may go.

For those of you that support the podcast and the things that I have going on, can't thank you enough. wouldn't do it if it wasn't for the support that I received from those who are listening. The numbers, again, are slowly and consistently still growing, and it's amazing. I never had any desire or aim for what this podcast would be when I started, but the direction it's going is fantastic. I love the conversations that I'm having with people. I love the people.

I love the topics. So I'm going to keep going. If you want to support the podcast, do me a favor. Write me a review on iTunes. Go rate the podcast, good, bad, ugly. Say whatever you want. If you hate it, write down there that you hate it. suck. If you love it, don't write that you love it, just because that seems odd to read that.

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Get outside, use your freedom, express your freedom, and do awesome shit. If you're interested in support in that movement, freerangeamerican. That's all I have for this week. See you. Actually, hold on.

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