Cleared Hot - Powered By BRCC - Cleared Hot Episode 65- Evan Hafer and John Dudley

Episode Date: December 17, 2018

Evan Hafer is the founder and CEO of Black Rifle Coffee.  Prior to his current role he spent twenty years serving this country, first as a Special Forces soldier (Green Beret), then as a contractor for the Central Intelligence Agency, completing multiple tours to Iraq and Afghanistan.   John Dudley is a world class archer and coach.  He is the founder of Nock on Archery, the one stop shop for information, equipment, and instruction for archers and bow hunters of all levels.  For the past year and a half I have been fortunate to conduct multiple hunts with him, and I am doing everything possible to draft off of his knowledge and experience. 

Episode 65, no sponsors for today unless you guys want to make one up. I wish we could do a combined blue chew ad because they were my favorite to do, but they didn't buy an episode this month. So, episode 65 with John Dudley and Evan Hafer, instead of me making things up about you guys, since you're sitting right here, I'd like you both to introduce yourself to the audience and then make things up about yourself. Oh, yeah, yeah. So let's begin with John Dudley.

John, tell us a little bit about yourself before the episode. Hello, everyone. I'm John Dudley. I'm a reoccurring member of the cleared hot episode. I'm also a friend to Andy Stumpf and also possibly a friend to Evan. He hasn't. I haven't heard him talk shit behind my back yet. So I am a guy that likes to eat sweet and salty crickets,

scorpion tongues. and every now and then I shoot archery. Best known for your interpretive dance. And moving on to Evan Hafer. Your turn. You're going to have to do an intro anyway. I'm from the great state of Idaho, which is much better than Montana. 2% worse, but...

It's much greater than the state of Montana. 100% of Idahoans agree with me. So that is the fact. I have a coffee company. I don't know if you guys have heard of it. It's a brown rifle coffee company. I've heard of black rifle. That's an offshoot.

Yeah, it's like the subsidiary, I think. But, yeah, I started Black Rifle Coffee a few years ago. My previous profession was one of gun toting for several years. Like a fact totem? Yeah. Yeah. But more of a gun totem. Gun totem, yeah.

That's what I did. But I started roasting coffee in 2005 with no idea whether or not I've, going to transition away from the life that I was currently living just because I was super interested into it or in it. Those are my hobbies, which was, I called it, it was the series of ours. Like I liked roasting coffee, running big rivers. Like those were the things that I like reading, a few of the things that I like. Oh.

And, um, any other ours? No, those were just kind of like raiding, yeah, like those. I am a hardcore knitter, so I spend a significant amount of time knitting very complex colors and tapestries with former felons. So I teach it to give back. Sometimes you mix in a pot holder. Yeah. Well, that's where I restart. And that's my way to give back to felons, because I'm super concerned with the felon community and how they transition.

back into the society. Can anyone else hear that dog eating that rotten leg? Just fucking... That's good. And on that note, episode 65. To the smoke, I'm looking at danger close now. Yeah, let's fucking get in there, yeah. How did it...

Where did the communities adopt that Spartan aspect? Like the... You see the Crusaders. You'll see the shields. You'll see the swords. When did that happen? think it, I was thinking about this yesterday. I think it comes from,

I think it comes from the movie 300. Yeah, definitely. Because I don't remember seeing any of that when I first got in. And I don't remember when I did start seeing it, but once I did, it was everywhere. I couldn't look anywhere and not see it. So when I was in the, when I was in the course at Bragg, one of the instructors assigned

as part of our reading material was the Battle of Thermopy. Yep. And Gates of Fire? Yeah, Gates of Fire. Exactly. So, you know, we were familiar with that and then the movie came out and then it was like all the guys that couldn't read all of a sudden knew about it and they're like fuck yeah fuck yeah fucking sparta link shields yeah we we went on like a 20 minute diatribe on our podcast just talking about spartans and how how

fucking gay they were because they were like ultra gay and they love butt fucking each other and fucking kids and everything else. They were just fucking homos. And that's nothing when I say that when like, I'm not trying to be derogatory, but it's like, you got all these dudes that are like homophobic, legitimately homophobic that say like super derogatory things about

homosexuals. And they're like, they got a giant tattoos, yeah. Like giant tattoo celebrating the, the previous homosexual activity of a group of dudes that like to kill people and butt fuck each other. Like, is this a type of podcast we can say we can say, and it's the internet. As you know.

So here, funny story. I met Mark Twight in 2005 and spent a week on the movie set of 300. So I went up there and I met Zach, the director, and I watched him. It was my first introduction to anything in the Hollywood sphere. And I watched them film a movie that completely takes place outside. Right. Shot with zero scenes that occurred outside. It was all green screen, right?

It was that. And it was all these huge. intricate stages. So I'm like picking up the Spartan shields in that movie. It's like, whoa, this thing is made out of helium. And it's like, paper mache.

Yeah. I was, one of the, when I was there, they were filming that scene where that huge dude gets carried in. And on the side of the carriage, there's these massive golden lions. Right.

Well, when I was there, there was this massive piece of styrofoam. And I would come in in the morning and it would just take a little bit more shape because the guy is just on it every day, just like, and by the end, it looked like a lion. And then in the movie, it's like this golden masterpiece.

I'm like, that's a piece of styrofoam right there. But all of these scenes, I watched him film it. It was crazy. They would move cameras around for 30 minutes, action for five seconds. All right, cool. Move the cameras for another 30 to 45 minutes action for five seconds. And they just kept spinning the cameras around, like the wall with the buried bodies. Yeah, yeah.

When they were piling it up, that was, you know, an eight-foot section. And they would just shoot from different angles to make it look like. It's big. And that scene where they come up and they're peering over the top, I was standing in the room. And the backdrop, I mean, I don't want to say it was the worst watercolor painting I've ever seen. Right. But it could have definitely been up there.

And I remember I'm thinking of my head, I'm like, there's no way this will look real. And then I saw that scene in the movie. Like, God damn. Hold it off. But it's crazy because those guys were working out hard and they still would paint abs on them. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm like, are you guys, what's going on here?

They didn't have any capes on, no points on any of the spears. That stuff was all added. That's fucking. C.G. Later on the other, it was just blunt. Yeah. Yeah. It was crazy.

Wow. That's amazing that they can do all that. Well, yeah. When I remember watching that, it was like, oh, I mean, it's an entertaining movie. You know what I mean? It was a movie. It didn't change my life. I wasn't like, you know, going to the tattoo artist the next day and, you know,

painting a fucking Spartan on my back. I didn't do that. It wasn't life-changing. Yeah. you know. It engulfed most of the communities very, very quickly. Yeah. And I think it just took on a life of its own where this, like,

helmet is such a symbol of resistance. And the shit that, like, really freaks me out is like this, like this inner, interwoven wrong historical reference of, like, the Spartan helmet and then, like, the 3%, and then, like, 1773 or something. You know, you'll have, like, three layers of shit where you're like

none of those things make sense like they're not historically accurate whatsoever like it doesn't make any sense like you're a 3% Spartan revolutionary I don't even understand I don't think you understand history

none of those things can be correlating but dude look at my tab look at this you know stack him high what'd you do was an armor's assistant I have heard people I have heard it And I won't say where rolling out to helicopters,

and I heard a guy say, come back on, you know, with your shield or on it. I'm like, I don't have a shield. Did you get an issue a shield? Because like, damn, and I left mine somewhere. I would not want to carry one. I'll tell you that. I wouldn't.

And, you know, more than likely I would have come back with my plates. Yeah. I mean, they typically transfer you with those. Yeah. They're strapped to your body, well. I've heard a lot of that, too. Or the Valhalla stuff is the other one too Where I'm like

I'm not like if you guys know History and you know the history of the Vikings And like the you know They're the Norse gods and all these other things Like you would also know that they like banging each other Like that's the whole thing It's like man You guys are like for homophobes

You guys are celebrating a group of ultra violent homosexuals all the time Like the Spartans and they never read the reference material I don't think they did I think they're just like, dude I saw Vikings on History Channel. Those dudes are bad motherfuckers. It's like, but they're actors, you know, and they were.

Don't get me wrong. They were fucking bad motherfuckers. But you can't have Valhalla 3% Spartan helmet all in one sticker either. You can. You can do whatever you want. It's a free country, but none of that stuff makes sense to me. I don't get it. Not when you've read the source documents.

You're like, yeah. Hmm. Interesting. That's super interesting. Yeah. Speaking of Mark Twight, was he cool dude? I mean, I'm... So I did the longest podcast I've ever done was with him.

Really? It was three and change. We could have gone for six hours. Wow. He's just an incredibly intense, dedicated... It's what I love about him the most. Like, most of his pictures are black and white. Yeah.

And I don't think he's black and white, but he's black and white. Like, he's just, he's in or he's out. And you would dig him, for sure. So I met him. So small world. So I belong to the mountaineers when I lived in Seattle, which was this like, you know, that's exactly what it is.

A group of mountaineers that go out and climb. And he did a book signing for Kiss and Kiss or Kill confessions of a stream album. Yeah. Dude. So that was 1997, I think, something like that. I think it was like 97 when that was released. Maybe a little bit earlier or later. I don't know, right around there.

So I met him at his book signing there. He came out to the Mountaineers. And I was like, read his book. I fucking loved it. And I think he went into the fact in that book that he got into competitive shooting too, right? Yeah. And I was like, this dude's cool as shit. Like his book was great.

And by into competitive shooting, he was competitive. Right. Because again, he's in or he's out. He dove. He went on a bounce dive. Right. And to compete like 1911s, like the whole nine. Yeah.

That's why he liked, you know, the Bragg boys with their pistol ranges and stuff, he's like, oh, nice. Yeah. So he got in deep with those guys as well, too. Yeah, okay. So that makes a lot more sense because I was like, because a ton of my buddies would go out and work out with him at Jim Jones when it was still, I think, I don't think he's part of that anymore, right? Yeah, and I don't know the details enough to speak at an educated level about it, but I know he's detached from it now. Okay, yeah. But I knew a ton of guys would cruise out there and work out with them.

Well, when I met him in Salt Lake and did the podcast with him, it was maybe three miles from your HQ out there. Yeah. Yeah, I knew a ton of guys would go out there. I never got a chance to meet him in, like, past, like, 97. Yeah. Book signing. And I was like, dude's cool. His book was great.

Well, he's a mad scientist. So he crapped, like, going back to 300. He trained all of the, I mean, those guys were legitimately yoked out. Right. He went in, like, each individual person, it was crazy. Because this lady would just show up and she was like, here's your shake. You need to drink this. I'm like, I'm not actually an actor, but thank you very much.

Obviously, I am not in the shape that these gentlemen are in. But every actor was on, like, a nutrition protocol specifically designed by him. And he was working with the food services and craft service. They would come find them, eat this now. Wow. He tuned. I mean, it's just, it's individualized for every single. for every single one.

And not even the people who had the speaking roles too because everybody there they needed to look the same way and he has this just dossier of pictures of day one getting these actors and just the transformation

because they even worked with them I think for four months before they even started shooting. Holy shit. And it was, I mean, I'm sure we've all been in that phase where you're working out hard and you're diet,

it's not easy to do. Yeah. And so then they would do all that then they had to go do their fight training and he was working with the fight training guys and it was crazy. I mean, he's just a complete mad scientist, his level of understanding

and knowledge paired with the mountaineering stuff. I mean, he's like the last man standing in his year group or career, the stuff that he was doing, the crazy climbs that he was doing. He's basically the last guy left. Yeah. We talked a lot about that on the podcast, like the risk and just the...

So does he still climb? I think he still climbs, but I mean, I don't think at that level. Right. Well, and the interesting thing with that was the whole developmental piece where he he went into it in the book where he was talking about working out and then also the series of repetition become proficient at like the professional level because that's really from what I could gather from the book and I'm thinking about it's 20 years ago right but I loved that aspect because he was talking about I want to be the 1% of the 1% at this task so I'm already this you know extreme alpinist that's climbing routes harder than 99.9% of anybody else can do.

Yep. So now I'm just going to go over here on me to be a competitive shooter and fucking be in the 99.9% category over here too. Created Jim. Oh, and I'm going to get on hop on a bike and crush people on a road bike. Yeah. He's nuts. Yeah, he's a fucking crazy person.

That's why I love him. Good crazy. Yeah, like it's cool. Then it was a, he was kind of, well, maybe he pioneered the curve, but he was ahead of the curve from the aspect of like wanting to be the 1% of the 1% because that's something that's really trending right now. He was doing that long before there was a soapbox to get on and talk about how you're, like, oh, you're good? Well, I'm good inside of people who are good.

Well, that's it. It's like the guys that want to be that guy. And then there are guys that are like, no, I am that guy, right? It's like, holy fuck. Because you meet guys like that, like Dudley, right? I mean, it's like that dude. And I think you're probably one of them too. Definitely not.

I just try to hang out with people who are. Like, if I stand next to you, people will think I'm good. So stay right there. When he has so much, because he's 10 feet tall, so some of that greatness might just, like, sluff off the shoulders of the mountain onto, you know, onto the shores of inadequacy onto me. So I'm like, this fucking badass.

It's getting deep in here. Yeah, when I got hurt overseas, it was Mark, I went through one of his programs. That's what I used is rehab. That's how I found CrossFit through Mark. Because he was part of it early on, right? Jim Jones was a CrossFit affiliate gym. It was one of the earlier ones.

Got it. So I somehow connected the dots, and he came out and put a seminar on it, the command, and like seven of us went through it. And it was, I'm like, yeah, so Monday, Cheston tries, right? Tuesday, back and buys, and then you just repeat that for years. And he's like, no. Like deadlifting? No, I don't do that, mostly because I don't know what it is.

Squats, no, I don't need to do any that. And it was unbelievable. I mean, he changed the way I work out now is still the exact, the methodology. is still the exact same way. And it all flipped on a dime for me, sitting in a small conference room, listening to him. But you want to talk,

I'm like, I've just watched him walk over uneven terrain before. She should hit Barclow up and ask him about, because he, Barclow, our mutual friend, what is he, had a big game category, sick co?

Yep. He ran the cold weather training facility for all the teams. Is it part of the SQT pipeline? Right. And Mark would come up there and, I mean, not only can they got rock climb,

you know, let's just go skiing. You know what I mean? We'll go cross-country skiing and touring and looking at terrain from, if you need to get from A to B on an infill, you know, this is the route you need to do it because this is avalanche prone terrain. So he'd go out there and do that. So if you watch those guys just move over uneven terrain

and the way they make decisions on packing a backpack, it's like in the movie, Platoon, it's like, I think I'm humming too much kit. Just dumping my backpack. Like you don't carry two tents with you? Yeah, cool. I don't either. throwing it over my shoulder.

What are you doing? I'm just digging a hole in the snow over here. It's not a big deal. Just leave me alone. Yeah. Don't worry about that. Yeah, it's so cool to have. And then we didn't talk for 10 years.

Like text every once in a while. We linked up in Salt Lake and it was awesome, man. Had just a phenomenal conversation with headset on. It was sweet. He was definitely one of those guys that, because I was 19 or 20. I can't remember what year it was. It was like, it's definitely a big influence. I mean, even when Jim Jones came out,

I was trying to do the original workouts that he was putting out. I remember, I was in Basra. And I was like, dude, 75 miles. And so I'm like riding 75 miles on a fucking stationary bike and 138 degrees and like a tin shed. Like, fuck, fuck. Man, this is going to take me like six hours. Yeah. I don't like this. Then you'd get off and I'm like, I can't use my legs anymore.

And then I'd be getting into a car going, God, I hope we don't get into a gunfight tonight because I can't actually move. So I'm just going to die in this car. I'm hoping I was just like, you know, maybe I could just open the door and shoot from the door. I don't, maybe, you know, hopefully it keeps moving. The first workout I tried to his was called Jonesworthy. And in hindsight, it's nothing spectacular. It's squats, pull-ups, and kettlebell swings. Right.

But I had never done a squat. And I'm just talking unladen air squat. That I had never thought about doing a squat in my training before that. Because if you're going to work your legs, you need to sit down this contraption and push the weight up. 45 degree angle because that happens all the time of real life. And I did that workout and I fell down the stairs at my house the next morning. I was like having to belay myself down to the toilet because I would reach this point where my hamstrings are like, we're done here.

And I thought I was going to smash the top. One of the source times I've ever been. And it's like 80, 64, like not crazy numbers if you've ever done a squad. And of course I was doing it with a friend. neither of us had done a squad so we were obviously trying to see who could finish first. I couldn't walk for a week and that's like I've never been this store working out ever.

There's something to this and it just I never look back. Every so often I'll do a workout where I just blast my calves and it's been just ages since I've really hit them hard and then you get that thing where like you cannot do stairs

and my office is downstairs and I hate those days because I can make do, like, kitchen, bedroom, toilet, upper floor. Right. But then I just kind of, like, look down the stairs, like, it's just this faint light down there, like, and I'm like, there's a demon down there. I know I need to go. Have you ever had that where you feel like you're one of those, what's that freaking,

if you ever watched Pick a Destiny, Tenacious D? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. What was that, the Beelzebob? We don't really get that freaking hooved, the hub devil. He's got nothing, yeah. He's hit no calves. Yeah, that's what I feel like. I feel like I'm up on some hooves.

Yeah. It's good, though. I like, I really like the guys that you have to dig, you almost have to pry it out of them to know, like how good they really are and everything. And then once, when you really find, find someone that's exceptional like that, it's pretty common that you can realize that they're

exceptional in so many other realms around them. They'll just be like, oh, okay, I'm going to do this. And then next thing you know, they're just awesome at it. And it's because I think it always comes down to work ethic. Shit, it doesn't matter if it's getting your first job or, you know, working on a craft. I always think it's like work ethic and then just like your mental attitude to what you how you put in.

I remember when I first started working at a bow company there was this one guy that in the lunchroom he'd always just kind of complain I think he was he picked parts for the bow builders

and the way our factory was laid out on the other, on the far end of the building was kind of our conference room and then on the other side of the building was production but since we started so small and grew my office was over by production so but I would have to walk to the far other end of the building every time for for meetings so I remember hearing this guy for months like he was just kind of always negative and you know just you know never going anywhere around here, you know, kind of this thing. Well, I'll remember I freaking walked out of my office one time

and I was going to the far other end of the building for a meeting. And I've walked and I'm like walking at a pace where I just, I, you know, pass this guy but I just didn't even think about it. And he's like got a work order to go get a cam for a bow builder that's like waiting for the cam. And I went all the way to the conference room and realized I forgot my damn pen. So I freaking went back to my office and came back by. And I remember I'm like, I looked over and I'm like, you realize I've passed you twice, right? These are things he says to me while bow hunting.

I just want to point out that his stride is two and a half of mine. Normal people. Yeah, and following a giraffe in the back country. I just like stuff like that just blows me away when people, you know, people really look to, especially now. they look to social media for motivation every day, every day. They just like need it. They need it. They need it.

And it's like, man, you know, work ethic. Put your head into something, commit to it. And like spring in your step. Like put a freaking, these are super simple terms. You know, I heard from my grandfather, however long, you know, put a little spring in your step. It's like, dude, that's all it takes. Like, don't slumber around.

The amount of people I see right now, I'll always. walk into Walmart and I've had days where I just look around me to see how many people will actually pick their feet up like if you ever notice how many people now just drag like drag their feet like I think if you put a piece of toast on the ground they would trip right because it's like I can't move my shoe okay now one more I only use slippers because they're easier to put on well it ties in what we were talking about last night about um you know public speaking that people that are out there from the spec ops background

they're not teaching people to put a satellite into geosynchronous orbit it's very simple concepts like you're talking about and in my opinion people who choose to serve in the military they will leave at least an understanding of what those principles are can springboard

them whether or not they do something with it is a completely different story and either they don't or they can't in my opinion when I see people can't get out of their own way because they want to throw card or a flag at you first, you know, and pair with that. If they can get rid of all that BS and apply those principles, you're going to crush like 99.9% of people.

Yeah. And it's not rocket surgery. It's super, super basic. And I think that's, for me, any craft, you know, what are the five or six details and then do them? I'll never forget when I first started playing football. We had, I had a really good coach. I went and worked with Greg Landry.

He's a coach that, you know, kind of from the NFL days and everything. And I remember he sat down one time and he goes, you realize every play is designed to score. Right. Like every play, if every guy does his job perfectly, like every play is designed to score. But if one decision isn't right, then it's not going to work. And then it's like, okay, duh, yeah. Right. You know, if every guy just.

just does that one thing. And kind of his reason, he was a quarterback coach, so his reason for telling me was he told me he's like, your job is to know what every single guy's role is for every play. Like if you are leading correctly, you will make sure every one of your guys does the one thing that it needs to do for us to score every play. And it was like, oh, okay, yeah.

So it's just structure. Once again, structure. And then from a shooting aspect, I apply the same thing. I always just go back to, I focus so intently on the basics and just like trying to make them so razor sharp that I have only a few edges, but they're so sharp that if they're, if you use them, they work. And then for cooking, I do the same thing. I mean, everyone wants me to do a cookbook and I tell them, I'm like, you're going to be this it's not five pages it's like five pages i just stick to the to the basics of what was told me and i just continue to try to refine them refine them refine them refine them i don't

try to like reinvent the cooking of meat i just try to do it exactly how i was told by someone that does it right and then just do my best to keep getting better at it you know and and i don't try to sway outside of that. And I think if people apply that in all kinds of aspects, it's going to work. Yeah, I used to talk about that a lot where, as an instructor, you know, guys would be looking to, you know, guys from, you know, Sealed Team 6 or Delta or wherever. They think that they have like a magic wand and a fucking cape where they're going to be like,

I'm going to give you some knowledge that's going to totally alter the course of your shooting. you know, or your CQB methodology or whatever it is. And it's like, man, actually, there is no magic wand. I'm like, a double play is a double play. The only difference between a double play and the major leagues and one in, you know, Pony ball. Yeah. It's time and accuracy.

That's it, right? But you're still turning the same fucking play. Yeah. And they're like, oh, okay. And I'm like, but what is it, the professionals? What's that saying? It's professionals. train until they can't get it wrong.

Amateurs. Trained until they get it right. Something like that, right? And, but I would continue to, teaching like, you know, hundreds of guys through the last several years. It's like, man, I can't give you a magic wand, dude. It's like, take buckets of fucking ammo out of the range.

And keep doing these three things. You know, stand up a camera with a tripod. I'm like, if you're really serious about this shit, like, get serious about it. but don't expect to go out like once every month and then go buy your entry point to some, you know, a course that's going to last three days and then not shoot again, but once a month or whatever it is.

Like, that's not going to work for you. You're never going to be able to up your game. Two, if you don't have the desire to do something like that, like to put in the time, you're going to be fucking miserable. Like if you don't want to go out and shoot,

you know, a thousand rounds until you can get a sub-second draw from, you know, the concealed at a five-inch fucking pie plate seven yards away, dude, if you don't want to do that, this is going to be a miserable circumstance for you. So don't force yourself into something that you're going to hate. Yeah. But don't complain about it when you suck either. Like if you suck, you suck.

Like, that's good. Realistic expectations, I think, would help a lot of people as well, too. Right. You missed teaching shooting? I do. Yeah. I actually miss teaching CQB more. than I miss teaching shooting.

Like I loved, I love teaching CQB. I love teaching because it's so complex. Yeah. And I developed a whole one, one man and two-man CQB protocol that from the ground up, you know, not when I say from the ground up, like I took a bunch of different things from different areas, put them together. Then I created a lab, a tactical lab where we would run scenario after scenario after scenario. and we put guys through the grinder,

and then I would ultimately build spreadsheets, and then I would come up with statistical probability sheets. Oh, God. It's fucking so much fun to me. Like, I spent two years of my life building this where I could build really complex angles and open up different doors and then create, you know, because Yucisot came out with this study,

I think it was 2007, where guys were getting shot and where they were getting shot from. They weren't getting shot from the rooms that they were in. They were getting shot from the room to room. So adjacent spaces where they're getting shot. I mean, obviously, you know this more than, you know, most people. They were probably still moving dynamically internally as well, yeah.

Yeah, so there was a ton of dynamic entry, you know. And for us, we were operating in really small teams, so it was only one or two guys. And there weren't a lot of, a lot of people out there that had a one-man entry SOP. Like, nobody was doing it except for law enforcement. And then if we were coming from our community, they're like, you need two to go. It's like, yeah, but I don't have two.

I have six people in 13 rooms. Yeah. We just called it L.A. style. I heard over the radio a few times. They were like, L.A. style. I'm like, oh, shit, it's real. Yeah. What it means one-man entries are authorized.

Yeah. But in my community, it was two. You'd hold on a door waiting for the squeeze. and it's CQB is it's an, I don't even know what they call it now, CQC or whatever, but the angles are so interesting because you start super simple. You're going to go in a probably a center-fed room and it's going to be a square. And you're just going to teach, you hold it the door, you're going to open the door. You will go in for, and it's super choreographed. And then you add to that and you'll get people proficient at that one room.

And then you move a target around and like their whirl comes unhinged because it's, and then you add a hallway. But the door is closed. Then they're fine. but you open that door and the world becomes unhinged. It takes this, it's like Tetris. You have to build this experience. Yeah, I was going to say. And understanding, because just opening, like he's saying,

opening or closing one door, yeah, you go into a room in the way that we were taught to do it, unless there's somebody in a location that's disadvantageous for you coming through the door, and there's, I don't know, I don't think anybody is doing it, but I don't really feel like discussing the tactic in a nuanced level. There's a couple places where, as you come through the door, if there's somebody in a location you're screwed because you cannot essentially come up on your gun but you take possession of that room really fast and yeah it was like there'd be a window that it would

come through or a hallway that it would come through where people were getting hit as opposed to being in the room itself you know that's like teaching that course and then working in that circumstance because that was the most interesting thing that I had done in my my career and then when I say interesting there's tons of different aspects to missions and things like that, but being able to develop something from ground up and take years and just grind on it, and then I'd rotate over and then implement it. Watch the efficacy of it?

Yeah, yeah. So just being able to have your own tactical lab with the government funding it and then a bunch of guys that came from our community that were running it. And they're all coming from different services too. Which means they teach their schoolhouse differently. Yeah.

And there's not a lot of cross-pollination when it comes to, like, because these are our secret ways that we do it. This is our ninja's wife. Yeah. It's like, so it, that's, I do miss that a lot. You know, the shooting aspect of things, I, doesn't excite me, but, like, putting dudes in sim,

highly complex problem-solving scenarios with fucking sim munitions and explosives and anything and everything. Because even live, you know, going live fire, not that interesting because they can't, shoot back. But if you can put role players in scenarios and add complexity and then layers of complexity onto that and then

watch how people behave in those scenarios and then it's a lesson in psychology where you're just like this is fucking so cool. You would absolutely nerd out over this stuff done. Dude it's it I'm trying not to just really smile.

You should he so he grabs his rifle the other day and we're just like messing around. He takes First shot ever. You probably shot a 300 winmag before, right? No. Really? All right.

No. Ever? So he gets behind this awesome foul core defense, Petra. And I had just brought it out. I had to open 100, and we went out, and he's got a 300 to 500 to 7. We're just looking at the math, and I was just reconfirming the ballistics on it. Right. So I get a dialed for 7, take a shot.

Like, here you go, Dudley. Never been behind the gun. He just gets up there. Ting. I'm like, I want to do this. Opening shot, opening shot 7.30, and it was in about 45 miles an hour of wind. I'm like, yeah, just aim on the left edge because it was like, you know,

it wasn't full value. Like, yeah, just hold on left edge of the silhouette. Yeah, because it was a silhouette. It wasn't like massive. Right. And he shoots and he hears and he turns around. He's like, I like, I like this. It's instant feedback.

That sound is so fucking amazing. I know. As you're talking about the life. I'm just picturing Dudley coming through a house. Just in... That's where, like, I'm kind of... Some of the archery stuff you talk about, I'm like, God damn, I wish I could do that. But I can tell on your face, you're like, oh, I think I would have liked that job.

Yeah. That would have been... Well, because you get to pull in all these different aspects, right? And that was, like, the coolest part, because it wasn't just the, you know, your rifle shooting and the proficiency with a rifle and your pistol. Like, you could be the greatest rifle pistol shooter in the world. if you can't solve a complex tactic problem with moving angles because you're moving, you're putting feet on that angle and then the angles are always changing.

And then you can change the rooms and the windows and everything else and add role players and psychology and explosives and everything else into this. It's the most interesting thing not only to do but watch. So I would continue to go through all the time and then build and rebuild and rebuild. build a chute house to put in different scenarios where you're like, oh, I saw something. I'm going to see if we can fuck these dudes up on this one. Yeah, you see a hiccup, and instead of avoiding the hiccup, you dive into it. When you see these guys that can solve problems, and it's a really interesting thing to watch

hyper-proficient guys in CQB, and 90% of the time when I found those dudes are really fucking good at CQB, like they're just like, they're on another level. They're guys like Tyler Gray. their ADHD is like whooping their ass on a daily basis because they have about a thousand fucking ideas and they're thinking 10 you know 10 miles ahead of everybody else and their mouth is running and you're like

but you put them in a fucking house that's moving at a thousand miles an hour with fucking a thousand things coming at them and they are it's like a fucking ballet to watch somebody do it and it's like fractions of a percent of people that can do that it's incredible when you were saying that

the reason I had a smile on my face because I was actually thinking all the way to what you're saying now. My curiosity was, okay, for me, this is a boiling pot. And so you're getting like that scenario, at least in like a competitive world, because archery's a super, super finesse sport. There's a lot of people, there's a lot of times where I go practice, like when I practice a lot, just random places, you know, if I was traveling through town and I might pop in here.

Like there'd be a guy at a local club that I would sit there and be like, this guy can just pound tax and it can pound tax and it can pound tax. But then all of a sudden it's like you kind of throw one little pee in the water. Right. Just like, hey, you want to go head to head for one? And then all of a sudden it's just like, like the freaking, you know, the wheel on the cart. Yeah.

It's like Jordan's truck in Alberta. Yeah, yeah. So I was wondering in those scenarios, obviously, it's, you're separating layers. So then you find some of the guys that are good like that. And for me, I don't know why, but I've, the more like pressure or hyper-focused I get, it seems like the more I can reduce my heart rate down to where, you know, it's like, I don't, and I don't know why, it just does it. It's like the more I hyperfocus, I can slow things down.

I don't know why, but it just does. So you're probably going to have those guys, and maybe that's who you're talking about. But then you have the other guy, the polar opposite of that. So what if those people are already on the team, but you get in, I mean, how much of that can you, is it just up to the leader to recognize the fact like this guy, is not going to be able to be the best in this scenario,

or can you filter them out after they've, like, if it's like, hey, this is a team dude, but you know what, we're, we've learned that, you know, this fricking cracker box, now, you know, it's a freaking fire ant nest. We figured out how to make it like this, and this guy is derailing. Like we've tried to navigate, try to navigate,

but in the end, like he derails in the most extreme element that you've created. How do you... Have you always been able to coach people out of that? Someone's giving feedback. I would say it's a bell curve. So you're in the community. I mean, I can only speak from mine,

and Evan can speak to his. So in the SEAL teams, there's standards, and there's going to be a bell curve. There'll be people who, like, this standard is a joke. They could wake up and they could hold and exceed the standard without doing any training. then, and some of it's tied to experience in time in the saddle. And then there are people who struggle to hit a dot on paper.

And then if you put them from a one-way range to a simulated situation, a two-way range, like with sim rounds, they come apart and they fail. If it's terrible in the conventional teams, yes, you can get rid of them, but where it really will limit you in the community that I came from is if you want to go places that have an additional level of screening, you're screwed. Yeah. You either have to meet a heightened statement. standard and the standards of those places are ones that are challenging to those that are at the top of the bell curve.

I think 30 to 40 percent in my background, if you want to go to those additional places, 30 to 40 percent again are going to fail out. And they're trying to get the people who are at the apex of the bell curve to begin with. Yeah. So in a conventional team, though, there's vast levels and it's on the leadership. I mean, I would say mentorship is probably the number one leadership tool we used. Right. Yeah. side by side, like, hey, I mean, it's, and you know, I mean, if you've ever been on a team,

you know where people's strengths and weaknesses are. And maybe Bob would be better over here and Frank should go over there. And sometimes, I mean, we'd kick a guy out, probably one guy out per workup at a conventional team for not being able to hold his standard. But other than that, you have to, that's your team. Could you always coach through it? No. I mean, I remember even before the invasion of Iraq, we had a guy.

and just like, hey man, you pass the course, you know, physically, mentally, everything was there to meet that standard. Which is the minimum. The minimum. And then we started our train up to go into Iraq and we realized there was a guy on the team that was just great dude. Like awesome guy, like fucking heart the size of Texas. But he would walk into a room and it would take him five. times longer to process the information that ever like the the next slowest guy yeah would be able to process so he was ultimately a hindrance to yeah able to to even do what we

needed to do he he found another another role on what was called the b team which not like there is there's no a or b it's just they were more support function oriented and great dude but at the end of the day, you're going to, you're going to become a liability in these circumstances. And I'm, and I'm really glad that that happened because, man, if you can't see. Yeah. And if you can't see angles, like that's, and it's a really, it's a really hard thing to get people into and to actually open them up to understand, I can't put my back to this window, especially if I don't have overwatch on this specific side of the building. And if I'm hitting targets, I'm, multiple like going target to target or from going from building to building like sometimes

you're not going to have that support element you're not going to have that overwatch that dude can't cover down angles and if he can't think fast enough fuck man this is going to be a big issue and i almost always found that it wasn't that individual that would have a catastrophic effect from it it would be the other people yeah because he would be responsible for a window or a sector and it's not getting covered so other people moving along assuming that it is getting covered with in and then yeah yeah and then where I came from we screened for that specifically so then we were using what I tried to really incorporate was the screening process was CQB as CQB was the complex problem that you had to solve because we want to see how fast you could think

and then how fast you could solve the problem on a really abstract level and then it and it's mind fucks dudes because they're like man I'm been selected elected multiple times. You know, and you're going, you're like, yeah, but you're, you're not good at this. And you might be good at CQB with a lot of team members,

but you're not very good at this by yourself. Yeah. And by yourself is a completely different scenario too, because it's, it is a fucking shit show by yourself. Like, it is, it is super complex. And not everybody's cut out for it.

And then that's the conversations you have to have where you're like, dude, this is going to take you so long to become proficient. even with the training that if we were to train you on a regular basis every day, it might take you a year to even get up to a 70% level where some of these guys just stepping in off the block genetically, they got it. And they just, but it was.

Yeah, I was curious from a coaching point of view, just because I think that happens in a lot of different worlds where some people have just the biggest heart and you know they'll just grind harder than anybody, but it's like, man, I want to, like, give you just a little drop that would, you know, I don't know how, you need, like, fertilizer or something, man. You're a seed, like, your roots down, but there's no leaves coming out. And, I mean, I keep watering and watering and watering, but, like, you know, for whatever reason, it's not clicking.

That's why they start selection, usually with that CQB phase, or they did for us. It was a month, and it started two people, four instructors in the catwalk. You want to talk about a little pressure? Yeah. And then it's always, and it was a one to one ratio. So if we moved to four or to six or to eight, you had a cadre member dedicated to watching just you. And you identify those people early. And the class just started getting smaller.

Because it does, in my mind, at least, shows your propensity for picking up the other skills later on. Right. So they're talking about critical thinking note. And then they layer on the other stuff. Like we did a month of that. And then we went and jump. And I was like, oh, thank God. God, that's over, yeah.

It's so fucking stressful. I mean, fighting in a house, doing CQB while somebody else is watching on a catwalk and videos running, like you can't hide from anything, right? So you see yourself for who you really are tactically because there's like the pains of reality, right? It's like the way that you see yourself, the way that other people see you and then like who you really are. Well, when you're on video and you're a fucking flaming dumpster. When you're frozen, like. You know, like, you can actually, you can see the thoughts, like, occurring, you know?

Like, that's how slow it is. And I'm that guy. Buffering, buffering, buffering. Yeah, buffering, yeah. Apple scroll wheel, just, like, I remember my world, my tactical world was just, like, just demolished at one point. Because, you know, I'd, like, been to Iraq and I'd done all these, like, cool stuff. And I came back. And I went through this scenario with, you know, a bunch of it.

a bunch of cameras and you know they recorded it I was I was drawing and shooting and I was shooting you know a couple different guys you know in this scenario and then I would re-holster and then I would fucking come over and I would shoot

oh my God and I'm like and I'm mortified I'm like watching this on video and I'm just like my entire tactical life is just like burning to the ground I'm like this is so fucked up I am ashamed I am so ashamed. But I was like, it was like the best thing because it was just this, you know, you know, open up your mouth.

Here comes the humility. Fucking son. Like, here you go. Here's a big dose of humility. And I remember I just went to work. I was like, okay, man, like this is super fucked up. You've got to fix this. And I spent, I mean, I would go off in my own time and find other training places.

And that's how I found this training. this this like cqb training facility down in arkansas and i would leave my job where i was doing cqb and then go out there and do more and they continue to fucking do over and over and over more and more reps to the point where i was like i'm not going to be a bag of shit i don't you know and not even that it's just your profession and your life dependent on it i'm like reholstering like i didn't even know i was reholstering it's so fucked up because in your mind you're like oh man this was badass. I looked super cool. And you're like, oh, God, no. This is horrible.

I look back and I'm like, how I mean, could it have gotten worse? I remember my first run on the house in selection, two-man entries with pistols. Like, rolling up to the door with my sick 2-26. I'm just ready to go and I went in and

all I remember is I shot every target in the room. Yeah. And then I was like, and I came back and I, and like, you know, you had to do a certain sweep and God help you if you went, like, you could only go a foot off of the barrel if you went 11 inches, safety violation on the spot, trigger discipline, all that stuff. But I remember just going and just like, ha, got, got, go, got, got, got, got, got, got.

And then, and then looking at the target. And thank God they were all shot, shoot targets, because I would have been ejected that day. I'm just like, could I have been less tactically aware? I just remember running into that room, like, ha, ha. My first raid, like the first real house we ever hit. So, I mean, it's so funny. So Breach goes off. We go in and I'm on the roof by myself because, you know, which is so fucked up.

Like I left, I was number one. I left everybody behind me. I'm just trying to find somebody to shoot, you know? And then I'm on the roof. by myself and I'm like trying to kick this door and I'm yelling at these dudes on the other side. I'm like, I'm going to shoot you in the fucking face. Well, they speak Arabic.

They don't know, right? Get the door open. I got these dudes down. And they had a couple rifles that they had laid down. And I looked down and I had been riding my mag release on my index finger when the breach went off. And I'd flinched and I dumped my fucking mag. My mag was laying at the entry points.

And I'm like You'd have been one and done, son Yeah, yeah Bang Fuck! You know, like Oh man Tap

Yeah Oh Yeah, I'm going to shoot you in the face With my one bullet Like, I'm so cool, you know Oh man Were you an ODA at that time?

Yeah What was your pipeline in? Or military-wise Oh, I was an infantry guy And then I went selection Did you join with the desire To go that route? You knew you had an in state

mind? Kind of. I met this retired lieutenant colonel. He lived a few houses down, and his daughter was actually, I was dating his daughter. And I told this story to Jocko. I came in, I came into the house one day, and I was reading a book by a seal. It was called Good to Go or something like that from Vietnam. And I had it in my back pocket in this whole crusty dude, kind of crazy.

He's like, what book you got back there? It's like, ah, it's a book on Navy SEALs. These guys are badass, man. You know, I want to be this Navy SEAL. And he's like, oh, yeah. Hey, come back here to my room. And I'm like, okay. Well, he takes me into his office in the basement.

And it's like, he opens up the door. And it was the coolest fucking room I'd ever seen in my life, like scuba tanks and knives and all kinds of fucking badass stuff. And, like, books everywhere. And I'm like, man, who, you know, who's this guy? And he's like, hey, let me see that. Here's a book. And it was a history of special forces from like 1950 to whatever, 1983. And I was like, okay, I read it.

And I found out what a Green Beret was that day or, you know, kept it for like a year. At that point, I still wanted to be an officer. And so when I joined, I joined with the intention of becoming an officer. But I wasn't cut out for that. I think I was a hot head. Did you go to college before you joined? I did, yeah, I was in the Reserves. The National Guard was in college,

and I was in what's called the simultaneous membership program. So I was in ROTC and the National Guard. And then I went to selection between my junior and senior year, and everybody else went to advance camp, which for officers was like where you decided to go and branch of service. So I was already picked up by the time I went to my senior year. and I knew that's what I wanted to do. At that point, I still kind of wanted to be an officer.

But then once I got into SF and it was awesome, like the dudes were like, you know, they're giants. They're fucking incredible human beings like all around you. You're just trying to be, you're just trying to live up to some, you know. Mythology. Yeah, the mythology. But then the invasion of Iraq, I think that changed my entire. outlook on you know the military not in a good way you know in a really good way because you

realize that there's a difference between being a really good like garrison green beret or a really good garrison soldier and then there are guys that like like war yeah there's a totally different breed of people out there and those guys were working for the agency at that time and my ODA was fantastic. The other fifth group ODA that we were with was fucking awesome. Like all the dudes were great, but there were these agency guys. And it's like dudes are rolling out, you know, fucking slinging to carbine.

And these are like crusty, not the guys we were talking about, not like douchebag, like cocktail circuit guys. Yeah. These guys were like former special operations guys that had been like on the road. You know, they've been doing the traveling road show for a couple of days. decades like fucking salty wearing like blue jeans likely handlebar mustachees all of them yeah handlebar every fucking one of it was like they issued them like they issued them you know like i've seen it it's awesome yeah this dude walks into our team room and he's like wearing jeans and like you know

like merrill shoes and like no plates and rifle or whatever he's like hey i'm going to go over do you want to go with me to do this i'm like sure and i'm like grabbing my kit that's got like 12 mags and you know 40 frag 187 pounds of gear yeah and I'm expecting him to grab his kit

on the way out and he like grabs a magazine off the off the desk and like slides it into the back pocket of his fucking blue jeans and like gets in the truck and I was like oh so there's another place I can go

I want to be like that guy I want to be like that guy and that was kind of where it changed. I was like, I want to go work for the clowns. That was like 05. I did a short stint in Baghdad with a bunch of Australian SAS guys

for like six months. And then I got picked up and rotated over there, like early 05. And I didn't leave. I spent probably close, I counted it up the other day. I was like at least 290 days a year

in either Iraq or Afghanistan. in a stand for from 2003 to 2012. It's a long road, man. And I eventually was that guy with the blue jeans and didn't give a fuck. Like, it's like sliding a fucking glock into my back pocket. Like, hey, we're going to go over here and do this. Come on, youngster, let's go, you know. You became the mythology for other youngsters.

Yeah, I did. I think. Maybe, I don't know. They probably looked at me and like, that guy's super fucked up. you're going to take somewhere someone's on a poddy ass going well here's my guy he freaking walks out throws a clock in his back

pocket you left and that guy's like hey none of you emulate that behavior yeah hey so that guy like don't follow that guy yeah I remember I was in Mosul

I don't know 08 or 09 or something like that and I was like I took my pistol out and I was taking my pistol out and I was taking a couple joes with me. I took my pistol out and threw it down. I was like, hey,

hand me a couple of frags. I'm going to actually get it reload here. So I took all my fucking nine mill and just threw it in a box. And I was like, but I grabbed three more frags. They're like, so you're not taking a pistol? I'm like, no, where we're going. If I need to transition, it's going to be into something

that's going to go really big, boom. It's going to have to be closer. And so I'm like dumping my pistol and just grabbing frags. And they were like, oh, okay. Yeah, we did. didn't have to do that. We didn't have to transition to frag. Secondary, frag. If your secondary is a frag, it's getting spicy. Well, that's what I was like, this isn't going to do me any good here, man. I'm just going to need

something with a little bit more. What do you think, Dudley? You want to go find a recruiter's office? Probably be a little old. I've got one arm. I'm 10 feet tall. My hips, my hips blown out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think I would make it right now. hits, I try. I think it's because my shoulders blown out.

Really? That I'm like, I think I'm just faith, this is guarding so much that I think it's twisting me compensatory stuff.

It's nothing. I mean, everyone deals with it. The one thing you said a little while back that I really appreciated was just how you reacted to when you

had visual of your mistakes. I think a lot of people like dodge that. or want to make excuses at that point. And I tell people the same thing all the time. I'm like, you have a camera, you have a video camera. Self-diagnosis is, for me, it was the only true way to change.

Like, people could coach me a million times. But if I wasn't willing to address the obvious, then it doesn't change. You're just continually seeking placebos, continually seeking placebos. So, you know, for those of you out there who were, you know, listening to. listening to Andy and Evan thinking, you know, that's a field that you want to go into. If you can't do that, you're going to suffer, you know, coming for me as a coach or someone who, you know, tries to alter people's, I guess, success in a precision field, if you can't do those things, you're just continually going to slide. I mean, you just continually slide and

there'll be days where it works, but then there's going to be days. where it could be catastrophic. Right. You know, and especially in your guys' this field, it's, you know, it's not like you blow a chance, you know, you took a shout on an animal and you blew it. Like, you know, you're talking about, you know,

having a team guy next to you die because you do something stupid. Like, anytime, I do that even, even now, even with me working for several people, you know, I guess whether you call it as an ambassador or whatever it is, I always ask the people, well, hey, you know, can you give me a review? Can you, I would like, can you treat me like you would an employee?

Like when you do your annual reviews, can you just give me a call and just say, hey, man, this is what you're doing. We really like it. Here's some stuff we'd like you to work on because I want to know that I'm doing the right thing. And if I'm not willing to like take feedback and then, you know, process it positively, then I just, I don't think you're ever progressing as, you know, certainly as a worker or as an athlete or as a per you know even as a person you know same thing's true with your family like you have to be able to take take you know that criticism or that

feedback and then you know how do i how do i work on it and if you just keep saying eh well i think is that that's it's got to be partly humility too right where i never i never thought i was the best like and i never ever ever in a million years was like i'm the best i would never even say that. I could never come out of my mind. Fortunately, I was very positive that I wasn't. Yeah, exactly. Because I'm like, oh, there's the ranking system. My name's not on the top.

I feel the same. I don't feel like I'm, I don't feel like I'm the best at anything in life. Nothing that I do, including archery, there's no way that I can say I'm the best at it, but I do want to work the hardest at it. Like, I'll lose sleep if I know that I just left, you know, if I, like, took a shortcut. Right. And then especially if I know I took a short cup, but no one, no one saw it. Right.

Like no one saw it. But then all of a sudden when it came down to like needing, you know, needing to perform, then when it didn't happen, you know, if I ever knew that, like, I'm like, well, there you go. You know, you freaking, you made an excuse. You had the opportunity. You swept it under the rug and then it freaking came back to bite you. And maybe no one else even knows. but for me to know, I would just lose sleep for, you know, I can still think the few times where I've done that

and it still just haunts me. And because of that, I'm like, I can't do that. You know, I either have to tell people no, like, you know, here's a deal. And I think the more open you are, I think it helps me perform better because I'm not creating something that's false. You know, I just feel like if I tell people, listen,

Can I shoot a bow good? Yes. Do I have I put in possibly a million reps? Me and Andy were talking about this. Possibly a million reps. It's probably close. Right. But I don't, I think there's phenoms out there.

But I also think some of those phenoms, some of them, if they don't have that same work ethic, the windows are short. But there's still phenoms in moments to where it's like, I was never that good. but I with what I was dealt I made 100% out of what I was dealt right you know

and I'm content with it and I think that's why you know I think if I put up a false pretense pretense you'll just continually chase this thing that's like not real it's not there you know and I think a lot of people self-destruct

well especially now in the social media world you know you see some of these guys are like man, this is a self-destructive route. Yeah. You know, because they're not going to be able to do what they're showing, so to speak. I don't know. Guys are getting kicked out of buds now because of social media posts.

That doesn't surprise me. I would assume it's an issue for every. Across the board. Yeah. Because they were like, look at me, holding a picture of their knife. And they're like, yeah, come into the office. Take a picture of the bell on your way out. Your next post will be of a bell.

This is a picture of you scooping eggs. Get used to it. Yeah. This is your spoon. There are many like it, but this one is yours. I'm watching my kids grow up in the social media world that I didn't have to. And I've had this conversation with him, like, because my oldest son is 15 and a 13-year-old son and a 10-year-old girl. And, I mean, dude, shit happens on their devices, you know, that we've had.

I'll tell you guys offline about it. But, you know, I tell my kids, if you do anything on an electronic device, you have to assume it exists forever. Yeah. You might be, I obviously with my oldest, I'm like, listen, you can probably get away with a lot. But if you do dumb stuff, 17, 18, 19, you might be at your first job interview and have somebody slide a piece of paper across. Be like, is that your post? Right. Yeah, because that's the door.

Yeah. You're not getting this job. Right. I don't think I could have survived in that environment growing up. Because for me to be an idiot, I had to do it localized to people's faces, not on a pedestal when you can't, and you can't take it back. I tell my kids, I'm like, you guys are growing up in a tougher world than I did. Seriously. And I don't necessarily know how to provide for you the tools to navigate it well.

Well, your brain isn't fully developed. Oh, my God. You're a fucking teenager. You're going to do all kinds of dumb shit. And if you're not, I don't, I mean, I just mean, I'll do it later in your mind. life. I mean, I was an idiot. I mean, still am an idiot.

I'm just like, but I was more of an idiot then. Yeah. So I can't even imagine like the stuff that I would have been putting on the internet. Oh my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It's like. I mean, imagine going through puberty as a young man and having a device that's a portal

to the world and the ability to input into that whatever awesome and deep thought you think you might be having. Yeah. For eternity. For eternity. for it to be backlogged and referenced every time that you want to, you know, like put your foot back in your mouth. Because I think of how many times I put my foot in my mouth,

like, just like walking around and talking every day. Like, let alone like a 16-year-old kid. Yeah. I would have absolutely never probably been able to do anything in my life. I would have fried my entire personal fucking persona down at 17 years old. Well, it sets these crazy expectations, too. from talking to the guys you're still in, they're having a really hard time

keeping people past the five to seven year mark because the digital world that they're consuming the books, the movies, the TV shows, they get in, they're like, what do you mean I have to train for four years to go on a deployment where I might not do anything?

That, you know, like, that's not exciting. And then, so not only does it set this bad expectation, then they leave pissed with a chip on their shoulder but the right resume bullet, and it's like, uh-oh. Right. That's a recipe for a decision.

disaster, right? Yeah, I can definitely see that. I mean, there are guys that even before 9-11, right, the guys that they never saw anything ever. And when I say that, it's not, it wasn't their fault, but 20 years of service, all the fucking cool schools that you could even, you know, put so on to a uniform, all the patches you could get. And just no chance to pressure test it. No chance to pressure test it. I can't imagine today with social media like you're saying. And then, because that's a huge reason why they would be

joining because of this image. It's like a moth to a flame. They're like, oh, I want that persona. And then they get in, they're like, what's going on here? And I was so disconnected from the younger generation. By the time I left, because it was still in the guard at 2015 when I got out. But I was in, I was doing the

training and I was a bunch of other senior NCOs so we didn't see a lot of the younger guys growing up but when you did you're like not in a bad way you're like dude this is what you guys are this is what you guys are doing like this is this is this is what you guys

what is a Snapchat thing or whatever you guys got going on I'm like man you guys are into some weird shit I was never into like I would never spend time on my phone when I was that age as like I was still like doing whatever I could do in mountain because we didn't have a phone yeah we didn't we didn't have a we didn't have a video device that

we could walk around I had a rotary telephone when I was Riley's age attached to the wall yeah trying to think where I was I was somewhere not too long going uh Harry saw one on the wall and then Sharon and I were like yeah this is how you would use it you're like you put your finger in here and then you roll it he didn't yeah he didn't know he's like well I've seen those I've seen those. And I go, well, here's the thing. Imagine like Olivia calls you and like the phone rings. Right.

You're not in the room. But we're watching TV right there and then you guys got to talk. Yeah. And guess what? That phone cord's only going to go as far as you can stretch it from last time. You know, and then you're unspiral on the thing and freaking, you know, so you're kind of around the corner like, hey, baby. Then the cordless phone came in and you're like, yeah, that was the money. Remember that?

Until you couldn't find it. Exactly. And you had to hit the page button, but the battery was dead. So you find it in the sofa cushion three months later. I remember that thing. There's probably one in this house. Oh, you know there is. There's like, we'll find it.

We'll find it. We'll find it. We're in. There's got to be multiple rotary phones. Yeah, we're in this. We'll find it for sure. We're in this very, very unique ranch on the northern side of San Antonio. that is...

Hard to describe, actually. The surroundings were in? It is very, very difficult to describe. It's almost like we're in a movie set. Like, this could... Like, boogie knights. That would be the appropriate genre. Yeah, but with animals.

Yeah, with a bunch of dead animals. Yeah, it's like a hunting camp. Like if boogie nights collided with, I don't know, some Hugh Heffner wild game trophy room. Yeah. I feel like if Hugh Hefner secretly hunted all over the world, this was his place that no one knew about. That's probably inaccurate.

It's an accurate betrayal. Yeah, it's a strange place. It's the, I don't even, I think it's the Guadalupe is what it is because it's a Guadalupe River down there. Well, what's crazy, have you seen, there's like, these are dead, these are all dead grasshoppers in this window sill? And next to every dead grasshopper are dead scorpions that tried to get the grasshoppers. Shut up. Yeah. Are you serious?

I got to see this. There's thousands of scorpions. Look at all these. There's a big one. There's one. There's one. There's one. There's one.

Holy crap. That's a fucking super cool. It's a classic pairing, really. Grasshoppers and scorpions. Yeah. Commonly found together. That's the name of our new coffee roast. Grasshoppers and scorpions.

That would sell, I think, actually. I think it would. And you have the model for the mockup of the label right there, too. So I've got a question. That'd make a cool camo. Yeah, what do you got? So Total Archery Challenge, I watched it, you guys shooting it on just via your social media. Like, explain that to me because I was, you guys were shooting one tournament in Utah up in Park City, right?

What was it, Snowbird? Yeah, it was on Snowbird. Yep. Was that fun? It looked like a blast. It's a blast. It's a blast. It was cool, man.

It's a blast. Because you're hiking, too, right? Like, you're hiking. Downhill. Oh, you're not. So you take the, what would that thing be a tram? Yeah. I mean, you top it out.

Take the tram all the way to the top. Yeah. And then you shoot your way all the way down the course. But, you know, you kind of switch back it. So sometimes you're going to be, you know, you'll shoot shots. at 40 degree angle up. Sometimes there, I mean, some of the down shots were crazy. Oh, I would say almost vertical on the down shot.

Because I saw one photo that you were, you posted, and it was, it looked like it was straight down. Yeah, that's that shot we're talking about. Okay, gotcha. Yeah. I mean, it was, the first time I did it, my arrow was coming off of my rest. It was that vertical. That's pretty legit. Yeah, it's common.

See, they're really fun courses. but at the world level that I shot for, you know, when I shot with the U.S. team, I shot field courses, which was my specialty, I thrived in these very, very technical courses. Like in those elements, it's angles, it's math, and it's an incredible amount of tuning. Like the fact of, you know,

if your bow's not set properly, you know, if your knock pinches a little too tight, like you get to an angle that's complete vertical and your arrow lifts off the rest, then you're, you know, you're dicked. Right.

So. Definitely still send it, but you're just not going to hear it. Yeah. Send it. But then just learning the, these like microscopic factors in your technique to where

once you start changing angles or, you know, side hills or, you know, down drafts, updrafts, like these are all things, I'm sure you,

you know, probably on the same wavelength as everything you go through in sniper school. You know, it's one thing to go shoot flat. And there's a lot of people that can shoot flat, great. But it's amazing to me how many times I've had students that are just absolute powerhouses, like flat ground, flat ground, and then I can take that target and just put it like six feet high. And then also in the scores like, you know.

And it's just from this sloth, light variation in like a muscle that they've never known to use or like you know and then you start to magnify that go from well okay instead of it being five feet above you now this thing is you know right 70 feet above you but really only 20 feet in front of you but people are looking at and they're like oh i got to add i got to add 10 yards to that because it's higher right And it's like, no, dude, you take it off. They take it off. And they're like, but it's longer.

I'm like, yeah, but it's still distance of gravity. Right. Wait, so you take it off? Some people don't get it. And then it makes them so nervous that then their technique derails. Right. So then they lose the basis of like what's most important is just execute the shot. Like even if you're, even if you're yardage or you're,

dope is wrong or even if you get it right if you don't execute the shot right to begin with then it it doesn't work so i thrive in those really really technical courses and i hadn't done one in a long time but what i appreciate about them is they're real like that's for for people that get into bow hunting going to the range and shooting or shooting in your backyard those don't truly prepare you for when you go on an elk hunt. Right. Because you don't know if that elk is also going to come over the hill over above you. And he comes charging in the first time you've got to pull back and, like, you know,

shoot with your hand above your head up in the air. And you're like, you know, people just don't, you have to do that. And that course is really fun because, one, it's not, I think every good archery shoot are ones where there's, like, no money involved. We're, you know, I feel like if people can go and they can shoot and they're not worried about score, but you're just trying to prepare for the technicality of, you know, you're essentially training, you know, for the mission, which is the hunt. And that's what total archery challenge is, is preparing all these guys out west. And now it's starting to move. They're adding more.

Yeah. But they sell out so fast. Yeah, all those guys that go and tackle the Wasatch, you know, if all they're ever. doing is going down to the eastern center and shooting, you know, even if they're shooting 70, 80, 90 yards out on a perfectly flat, landscaped, freaking football field. And then they go hit that Wasatch and they're up there. That's just completely different elements. So it prepares you for that.

It was like the fifth target, the one of you like talking about shooting up. Yeah. Just imagine a rock face. Super steep boulders everywhere. And then a huge boulder wall. And in front of that Boulder wall, was it like a ram? Yeah, I think it was a big horn. Damn near the same color foam target as the rock behind it and the rock in front of it.

Oh, nice. And it's, I mean, you're literally like up. And so, you know, one person would go up and get the arrows. And I used to have a lot, because we shot it three times. I'd love going up there because there was thousands of dollars of carbon fiber. Just like bashed into the rock, yeah. Oh, no, just splintered. Yeah.

Knox everywhere. Like, people are just hucking $20 bills up at the, that thing. And then every morning you'd come down and there'd be a pile, like, as high as this table of arrows. I told... It was unbelievable. I told Easton, I said, why wouldn't you guys host this every weekend? Yeah.

I mean, and they're like, 20 bucks for air replacement. I go, dude, look at that pile of air. I said, this course is brought to you by Sica. I'm like, every course should be brought to you by Easton. Yeah. For the amount of arrows that are on the ground right now. Well, and watching it, because... So, back to her reference.

or previous conversation. I was like, that, not only does it look fun to me, but it looks way more realistic. So it's the difference between shooting on the flat range and then going into the house, right? It's like a totally different. You're taking the skill set, which you're actually applying.

Yeah, even with the angles, there'd be, you'd only get the front quarter of an animal and there'd be a branch. Right. And you're sitting there like, can, does my arrow cast, am I going to hit that thing? Do I need to stand over here? Or it'd be in the shadows or two trees

that you've got to zip, through it was really cool man yeah i i so how how do they score that so when did well they didn't have score cards i mean it was optional you're just shooting it i was happy i kept score yeah just because i he put on a clinic oh i would i'd be like deadly where should i shoot this one he's like hold on tink this would be by the targets oh we should do yeah you'd hear that so you'd be so you'd walk down from that target and as you're like walking down you'd hear crack crack so is it so is it just for i'm trying to wrap my mind around this is it a is an event where there is a winner or is it just hosted for fun

yeah you're you pay to shoot you know it's everyone paying to shoot and you just you pay and you go shoot and you can take you know a couple days to shoot you get times issued um god why wouldn't they do that every weekend man And that seems like... Well, I think the reason the attendance is so high is because it's, you know, people have other things they've got to do. That's the reality.

It's no different than a hunting trip. You know, if everyone knows like, oh, hey, the Total Archery Challenges this weekend, everybody goes. There's a few tournaments where I tell people, if you were only to pick one, like if you were to pick one, here's what you do.

If you were going to pick two, the other one I can think of is in Reading, California. It's a pretty technical course, but it's just it's all animal targets, but it has orange dots on them that are scaled to the same size bullseyes that are in like our field courses. So the animals will have an orange dot on them

that's scaled depending. It'll be like a quarter size at 20. And then the big foot targets 101 yards. So that one I think is maybe about a six inch circle. Right. That's like, you know, right there. But there's money on the line at that one, right? Yeah, yeah.

There's money on it. And it's if you hit the dot, it's 11. If you miss the dot, it's a 10 type thing. So, I mean, it's kind of hit or miss, which there's places for competitive shooting and stuff. I think there's definitely a place for it. But I think if people are just thriving to be better hunters, which part of what I'm doing, and right now is like my school in Auk, this 12-week kind of progressive course, I'm going to walk people through on social media.

I just want the average hunter to be able to get comfortable enough shooting to where he could go to something, he or she could go to something like that, and they would immediately see improvements, and they wouldn't, you know, some people are intimidated by that. You know, they see a mountain. There's like this huge mountain. mountain. And so if you kind of refine the basics and build confidence there, then you can go into the next step. And I just think overall, as a hunting community, we're making leaps and bounds. Like, I think we're very close to being able to push aside the like Bubba Bow Hunter, you know, like what Hollywood sees.

You know, I saw that movie that Brolin did, like, making fun of the deer hunter. Do you see that on Netflix? Yeah, it's like he's taking his boy out deer hunting. And, I mean, it was like kind of Hollywood's, like, perfect spin on, you know, like what hunters are, you know, the Bubba Bow Hunter. And I think right now there's a big movement. Like, guys are getting in shape. Crossfits moving in, you know, in a way, not necessarily crossfills. Functional training.

Yeah, functional training is totally moving into archery. And people are, you know, they're tackling the mountains with backpacks, you know, putting their kids in a pack, doing these huge hikes, you know, toting their bows around. And then they're, you know, they're doing events like this and just going to like a club for the first time or just learning even if you shoot 20 arrows in the backyard how much it just continues to add up if the technique's good. And I think it's important for the sport that I love, you know, which is archery. And I think it's even more important for bow hunting that, you know, we show that there's, like, work ethic involved. And, you know, we kind of, we're almost creating a new mold. I mean, it's a, I don't know, you can't really call it an athlete. But, you know, a lot of the hunters right now are, you know, they're super passionate.

I mean, in a way, they're a dedicated athlete to their craft. It's just not, you know, it's not like you can't compare it to a sport, so to speak. But, you know, this is, well, I guess it's a lifestyle. Like, it's a passionate, dedicated lifestyle that people are walking around in probably way above average shape now. Yeah. And they're knowledgeable, you know. And then a lot of people now are really going down the field to fork avenue to where these people for the first time are like, yeah, I was into bow hunting, but like myself, I wanted to be good. I wanted to be ethical at it.

So that's why I took up competitive shooting. So then once you do that, well, now you shoot something and then you have this responsibility of, okay, well, how do I work on it? And then you, you know, people are like getting, people are getting their hands bloody. And I think it, I think it builds better people. I think it builds better character. You know, if you get in there and, you know, it's just like, it goes all the way back to, like, when Andy grew up and his dad had them, like, carrying bricks. Like, you're, you know, you're beating your hands up. You're, like, getting in there.

When you just go and buy something and eat it, you're like, whoopty, oh, yeah. hey this, you know, I'm not hungry anymore. Launch it, but, you know, like, if I have elk back straps that I know took me, Andy, and Barclow. 200 miles. That doesn't go in the garbage can. If someone's like, can I throw this away, I'm like, if you throw that away, I'm going to kill you. Yeah, the appreciation and connection is substantially different. Yeah, it's hugely different.

Like it means so much more Like it's it's it just means so much more even to your family right? Yeah I mean I haven't killed an elk for a couple years But the last one I mean it was fucking miserable like when I say it was fucking miserable It was like snowing in the mountains of Utah It was a late hunt

And we were out there for five fucking days And like grinding it the fuck out Like full moon and I'm like up to my fucking hips and snow like trying to get to the top of this ridge so I can get to the top of this ridge by the next morning so I can fucking so I can wake up up there

and I'm like getting to the top of this fucking thing was just like was suck I felt like I was in fucking selection again like it sucks man after similar to how Marklow felt when he got to the top of the mountain my fucking feet are two bricks I'm like, I'm going to lose a toe on this fucking thing. But, you know, we did.

We killed the next day and was like, man, and that meat for my family, it meant something. I was like, every one of my appendages were like, dude, you're going to eat this. And not only that, you guys are going to eat this. And kids, if you fucking backtalk, if you don't like it, you're going to go to your room. Anytime I pull some out of the freezer and it, frost it, like, my kids are sneaky. they'll like eat and then I hear over the garbage can like, sik, sk, sk, sk, like, I'm like, sit down.

Your plate doesn't leave the table until I take a look at it because you can just put that meat right back on this plate and we'll save it for tomorrow. Better not fight in the garbage can. Because I still have blisters. I just, things like that bring people together. Yeah, I mean.

I was going to say you're grinding it out, but you're like, would you go again? Oh yeah, because it's an epic experience. Yeah, it's awesome. It's like while you're doing it, you're like, yeah, this kind of sucks. you know like it kind of sucks when you're doing it but it's like I know that it's not going to suck in you know 45 minutes when I get to the top of this thing and I get in my fucking warm little cozy bag and you know and I'm going to be fine the next morning it's fine but and then

a year or two years from now when I look back on it and you're talking to your buddies and you're calling like hey man we need to do another grinder you ready to go fucking grind it out on the mountain I remember the things that suck I have almost no memory of the things that are easy yeah I agree when you're fond of those things. Yeah. Fuck, man, I love that. Well, not at the time.

Like, I could think of a million of those circumstances where you're like, God, this fucking sucks. But then you're like, that's pretty cool. Yeah. I don't know what year it was, but one year, I didn't shoot my white tail until the very last day of season. And it was in, I think I had bought a tag over the counter. And it was either Wisconsin or Minnesota.

but on the last day I shot a deer and it was so cold like it was so cold that this that the snow like wouldn't do anything it almost like was like fake because it was so cold and it was just like white dust just piled high and I remember when I shot it I was so happy and the only reason I was happy is so I could open the cavity up and stuff my hands in it. I just freaking put my hands in there and I'm just like, ah, because I thought I was going to lose all, every finger I had, because I mean, I couldn't feel anything. It just, and when I put

them in there, it burns so bad forever, and I felt like freaking Han Solo putting Luke in a ton ton, freaking I'm like, yes, I got something. I'm not going to lose both arms.

I just ran off and just laid down. I'm like, oh, okay, yep. I can move them again. I can move them again. And it's like, okay, gut and go, baby. Just gut and pull. And those are the trips, man. Like, like, even today, as I look, you know,

I look back, I'm like, man, those are the trips that I like. And those are the, like, I was out with my buddy, well, Kyle, Kyle Lamb, we were out bow fishing, like, next to his house. like 15 minutes from his house in Tennessee. And we took the boat down the river. And both of us, we'd never gone. I mean, he had done more bow fishing than me for sure. But I was brand new to it.

And I was like Asian carp and like super fucking cool. So, you know, it's night. We'd get the lights out and the fish start like jumping into the boat, basically. And you're trying to hit one of these fucking things out of the air. And we're having a blast. We're giggling like, like Kyle Lambs is, you know, Krusty's our major. Oh, yeah. Awesome, dude.

He's so much fun to hang out with. He's like so much fucking fun to hang out with. Well, we go down the river and we get into a piece of shallow water and we fucking break the engine. So the engine, the prop seizes up and we try to work in it. We're working on this fucking river. We're 45 minutes away from the put in. We're like working the shit out.

out of this and they're like, all right, well, we just have a trolling motor and mosquitoes are sucking the light out of you. So I get the bowline and I'm like, and I'm walking back up the river in this, with this boat. And Kyle's got the trolling motor pegged out in the back, you know, trying to give me a little bit, you know. So we turned like an hour long, you know, a fishing trip that we were just going to like go out and slay some fish with our bows to like somewhat of a suck fast. Nine hour evolution.

Yeah. Like we're cruising in. My dad was waiting for us because we were going somewhere else the next day. My dad's like, what the fuck were you guys doing? Getting back at like midnight. Yeah, you know what I'm like wet all the way up to my chin. And Kyle's kind of and I were both like, man, that was great. It was awesome.

That's what it was about. Yeah. We didn't, we were to say is we put two fish in the boat. But in all actuality, they put themselves in the boat. Like we didn't shoot one fish. Yeah. They just landed there. But it was awesome.

It was a great trip. Yeah. Yeah, we got two fish. But we had a fucking great time, man. And it was just one of those trips where you're like, I'll always remember that. If we would have went out and shot a couple of fish and it would have, you know, went back to the ramp. Yeah, yeah. So shot a few fish the other day.

Shot a few fish the other day. But none of what you're talking about can live on a device where people are trying to experience and look for that motivation. Like, sorry. You're not going to get that. doing this with your thumb scrolling you're not going to get that with your thumb and you're not going to get that like you know we weren't using our phones per se we were using to take photos of the fish but you know you're not going to get that genuine exchange between people like you know hang out with a guy like kyle who's just an epic person to begin with yep and you know laughing like you're fucking five years old like

giggling we're giggling we're so happy because these fish are jumping jumping in the boat, you know, and we're so fucking happy. We're laughing at each other and making fun of each other. And it's like, this is a lot of fun, man. Yeah. On that note, Matt just showed up with two machine guns. We should probably wrap it up. Yep.

Yay. This is officially done. It's officially 12-11. Perfect. Thanks, boys. Yeah, thanks a lot, man.