Cleared Hot - Powered By BRCC - Cleared Hot Episode 90 - Jocko Willink and John Dudley

Episode Date: July 22, 2019

Jocko Willink is a retired Navy SEAL, the host of the Jocko Podcast, a NYT best selling author, Leadership speaker and consultant, and one of the founders of Echelon Front.  John Dudley is a world-class archer, projectile enthusiast, and one of the best bow hunters to walk the face of the earth.  He founded Nock on Archery, and combined with his YouTube channel and School of Nock his platform is the one-stop shop for anyone in the archery world, or looking to enter the sport of archery.

Ladies and gentlemen, here we go. Episode number 90, 9-0, strap in. Get ready. Two awesome guests for today. But first, let's talk about the people who are helping me make this podcast possible and let me devote and dedicate my time to it. The first sponsor for today's episode is a company called Ray Allen Manufacturing. And if you have pets, specifically dogs, here's how I would like you to think about Ray Allen. They are the one-stop shop. You can get anything canine-related, canine-related products at one place. And I love this brand for a couple of reasons. One, they've been making this stuff in Colorado since 1948, and they're sourcing the materials here in the U.S. whenever it is possible. And if you go to their page, ray-allon.com, r-a-y-a-l-l-en.com, prepare to have your mind blown.

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I was very fortunate to be geographically co-located with two very good friends. One of them is a repeat guest on the podcast. He's Mr. John Dudley. He is a projectile enthusiast. I was going to say Archer, but he also has a love of other types of ballistic, like long-range rifle shooting and short-range rifle shooting and pistol shooting. But people will know him from the archery world.

He is the creator of Knock-on Archery, and he gives away more of his time and knowledge than anybody that I've ever met when it comes to a particular field. If you go to his YouTube channel or you follow his School of Knock, it's a how-to step by step, start your archery journey, which is a question that I have gotten recently over the last two years since he has shepherded me into the sport itself or activity, however you'd want to look at it. And I'm not the resource to answer most of the questions that people ask me.

Go to knockonarchery.com. Find his YouTube channel. follow the school of knock and the biggest piece of advice that I can give you is get out of your own way and just do what he says that's what I did and it has been incredibly rewarding for me and I'm actually able to be successful most of the time so he was a high-level competitive archer he is and I don't even know how to describe it if an animal walks out in front of him and he has his bow it's not looking very good for that animal he's an amazing hunter And just, like I said, a solid dude, one of the most generous human beings I've ever met with his time, energy, and knowledge. We were joined by Jocko Willink.

And you all know who Jocko Willink is. I've been on Jock's podcast. He's been on my podcast. This is his second time. The first time was actually with Dudley. For those of you who are going to pretend like you don't know who he is, he is a retired seal. He retired, I believe, with just over 20 years, 20 years in a wake-up call in the military. and probably is most well known for his time and service for being the task unit commander

for a task unit bruiser, which was during the Battle of Ramada. And he worked side by side with another name people might recognize Chris Kyle. So Chris Kyle worked for Jocko. Post-military though, I mean, he's an author. He's written multiple books, started with extreme ownership. And then the dichotomy of leadership, both incredible books. I can't recommend them enough. both sit on my bookshelf right next to my desk. He has a children's book series, The Way of

the Warrior Kid. He's got an incredible podcast, a Jocko podcast. He has a leadership company, Echelon Front. He does keynote speeches and engagements with organizations in every business sector on earth. And what he's doing post-military, in my opinion at least, is far more impressive than what he did inside of the military. And I say that because the number of people he's been able to touch and the breadth and depth that he's been able to push the knowledge and lessons learned. It trumps, in my opinion, the geographical difference that he or any military service member is able to make with their actual boots on the ground. When I look at what I want to do in my post-military life, I use him as an example of what can be done, and it helps motivate me.

And if you like getting up early, or let me phrase that another way, if you like feeling bad, about what time you get up. You need to follow him on any social media channel, and every day he's going to post a picture of his watch getting up earlier than you. And hopefully that'll either give you a kick in the ass or it's just going to piss you off. But either way, it might elicit some enhanced performance.

And I just completely rambled. So let's just get into this and get into the episode, episode 90, with Jock O'Willink and John Dudley. Enjoy. Okay, got the red smoke. Okay. Happy, west of the smoke. I'm looking at danger close now.

I'm all winning, baby. Give it to me. I need it. You're cleared hot. You can't be cleared hot. Okay, so round two. Does anybody remember when round one was? No.

Was it a year ago or was it under a year? Estimated a year ago. Estimated a year. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When we all met. Because my, I don't know if that bone in my throat is, but it's officially healed right now. whatever the the i don't know what the the arm behind the neck fist nice and gently under there

with the full what move was that that you did to my throat that was a no gee ezekiel choke okay how did that feel it actually the worst part was i was kind of like all right i know something's going down and i'm sure he's hearing this the same as i'm feeling it it, but I just spaced it and forgot I needed to tap. Oh. You were like, this is a very, I forgot how you put it, but you just said, this is, this is a very, like, I don't even know how you said it, but it's like an abusive choke. Yeah.

It's not a, it's not a friendly, hey, like this is just a, a choke that you'll tap and your lights might go out. That's a kind of, kind of submission where you go, man, why, you know, really? You're talking about the Nogi version? Which I actually don't know. I know the Ghee version. Yeah, you basically grab your forearm. You put your fist in their Adams apple. It applied pressure.

And then you do a hard arch like free fall and you drive your own sternum into your fist into their Adams apple. I mean, that sounds amazing. Do you know you broke my throat? Did I tell you it? No. You actually broke it. What do you mean? No, you broke that floating bone?

I didn't want to tell you the next day, but like when we were skydiving and everything, everything, I could barely talk. And so I went in like, when was it? Well, first off, I started getting texts. I think I have throat cancer. Yeah. I went and got checked for throat cancer three months later because I'm like, I've got this growth in my throat and it was pushing, it was triggering coughing.

He's so happy right now. Look how happy he is. I'm not happy. It's the most you've smiled ever, bro. That's horrible. So this was on, we hold on. We have to provide some context. as to what exactly we were doing that evening.

It was intro to BJJ with Jocker, because that was the premise of the weekend. Three dudes teaching each other their... What they're good at. Their crafts. They're crafts. So it started with Dudley teaching you archery. Chuck.

And then I think that night was in the middle of me teaching you skydiving. Yep. I had been doing jiu-jitsu. If this was a year ago, I had been doing jiu-jitsu for like two weeks, which was enough because it's amazing how little you have to do to be okay with somebody who doesn't do. too many. Steep learning curve.

Yeah. So a year ago, we were doing, we were at Victory, doing an intro to Jiu-Jitsu. And I actually, I'll say how this went down. Because it was awesome. We were done. And he said, I need to get some pictures. And you were sitting there thinking, and I could see that the wheels were spinning your head.

And you just sat down and you said, just attack me. He said, what do you mean? And you looked at him. You said, attack me, do what? whatever you want to. And that's how this became. I said, what should I do? And you go, you kind of, you were about to say something.

And I remember you go, it doesn't matter. Just do whatever you want. Just, just try something. That's the, that's the crazy thing about Jiu-Jitza. If you don't, if you don't know anything, it's going to be a real problem. He was in Mount Bottom within 20 seconds. Yeah. Yeah.

But, yeah, Della, was texting me, I think I have throat cancer. So, so did you go to the, you went to the doctor? Yeah, yeah, I went in and I went in like, because during hunting season, I was, this would be a great to video right now. I feel like massive, like you've done a bunch of really cool things, you know, give me a bow and put a bunch of time and effort brought me up here to this thing. And I like almost killed you. Kind of cool.

So, yeah, yeah. So we were, we were several hunts in. And I kept telling him, like, I just feel like, this thing is growing in the back of my throat. Because we'd be walking out here. Yeah. And I kept growing and growing. So finally I told Sharon, I'm like, I don't want to freak you out, but I think you have

throat cancer. So I went into a specialist, and they, they freaking shot this like Novacane in my nostrils. It just stings like gas. And they put a camera down the back of my throat. And they go, they said something. behind your esophagus wall is pushing your esophagus, like your esophagus against your flipper and you're feeling that. So they said,

we need to do like an ultrasound, like an MRI. So they went in there and then once they scan it, they said, I forget what that floating bone is, but there's a bone in there. They said, that looks like it was broken and it's grown shut. It grew back together and it has a calcium like where it fused back together.

There's like a bulge. around that and that's pushing against the back of your esophagus. So did they fix it or did you just learn to cope with it? The good news is I don't have throat cancer. The bad news is every time I cough, I have to think of you. That is so horrible. That's intro to BJJ with Jaka Willick. Come on in.

Andy still says it's partly your fault because you taught us some of the basics to BJJ, but what you didn't tell us. You didn't teach us about tapping? You never said, if at any time. I remember, like, Andy said, actually, the first thing he should have told all of us, because granted, I had my 19-year-old boy there as well, and my wife, we were all rolling,

and you're like, you just went right into, here's moves. Yeah. You know, you never kind of. You knew how to tap out, though. Is that a good assumption? You watch a UFC. Yeah. Right.

honestly I was in the moment. You could have told me to tap. But you eventually did tap. That's the strange thing. Yeah, once I heard the right noises, I'm like, oh, wait, that's my cue. But it didn't like, I heard a few, like, crunches, but it didn't hurt. I knew my air was no longer there, but it didn't like, it didn't hurt. That's one of the things that's bad about this.

It's an air choke. Yeah. Which means it just doesn't. off the blood. Yeah. If you get the blood cut off, you don't really realize that you're about to pass out. You think you can fight through it and then you go to sleep.

It's probably a pain compliance joke too, right? It hurts. It hurts. But people, more important that it hurts is people know that they can't breathe. They know that they can't breathe. And so it makes them a little bit panicky. It makes them a little bit freak out a little bit.

You know what really sucks, though? Now that I look back, most of that I did to myself. Because do you remember how I had you? I just thought like, Oh, yeah, he was bear hugging you into his neck. Remember, I had the back of your freaking big old swash, like full bicep curls just smashing you down. And you're like, oh, you want me to let you choke yourself?

So like the harder I pulled, you just made, it felt like you were just making a fist. That is what you do. You literally made a fist and your knuckles just broke my throat. Yep. That's, I'm sorry about that. don't be it sounds amazing i want to try that on sunday no i can show you we i'll show you no i want to try to hold on somebody else i don't need you to no no no can we do this i'll actually video that i will tap so far before it gets the point where you come on andy

one thing i have learned in my very limited time like i if somebody gets me into a position and there is a submission coming i will tap at that point instead of fighting it for 30 seconds so we can just start over and learn something else i have wasted so much time trying to wiggle out of like an arm bar or a triangle and I just get exhausted and I should have just been like fine you got me can we start over yeah tap early tap often yeah and then when you get better you're going to start realizing to where you can fight because because you also want to you don't want to be you don't want to get hurt but also you don't want to give your opponent in training an unrealistic understanding of how effective their move is so they could be making

mistakes and you're, oh, he's got the arm lock, so I'm just going to tap. When the reality is they don't, if they're not doing it correctly, you should escape. So, no, I mean like locked in, both feet are over, tension, arm is coming over before I get to extension. I'm like, you got the, you're caught in the arm lock. 100%. Yeah, yeah, okay. And I might be able to try some heroic feet of strength.

Or I might bust all the tendons in my elbow. Yeah. Yeah. Neither of which I can afford. Well, it's, I mean, we haven't been able to roll that much. you and I have a few times. Yeah, Dick. You were the one who said you wanted to.

Dude, you're the one who went full nerd going five days a week. We freaking, so here's the deal. I don't know if you knew this. We went to Mark Twites, and we just kind of went in there as me and Andy. And I kind of asked Andy, you know, for CrossFit, like, what's some of the circuits? Because I've never done CrossFit. Because there's certain movements in CrossFit that I think are hazardous to what's important to me. me is my shoulders.

So he just said, all right, I'm going to show you like a pretty easy three-sucker, you know, and he just said, I forget what it was. It was power clean and jerk, ski erg, and carry a ball on your shoulder, like, down and back or something like that. Yeah, I think it was like. Remember the ski er. I knew you had never been on one of those. I had never done it.

So I knew you wouldn't pace yourself, so we opened with that. Yeah, that's what it was. That's what it was that. It was five rounds, and my strategy paid off because I was watching out by a peripheral. Two and a half rounds in the O-ring started leaking. I was like, yeah, it's on. So we did that. And so as soon as we're done, and I'm like, by then there's sweat hitting the, hitting the floor.

You know, my forehead's like leaking. And he goes, you're on a roll a little bit? And I go, yeah, yeah, all right. And so that's that's, that's, that's, you in level nine, berserker on you. Yeah. I did not. I kept you,

I was working on Open Guard the whole time. I didn't go crazy. Okay. I did choke him a little bit. That's when he, that's when he made this ad for his page that's not, knocked a choke. Knock to choke.

Solid R&C just coming in, just, shh. Yeah. But then you came to SBG. We did a lesson with Travis. He sat through a class. He got to, uh,

you know, I love that. It was awesome. I wish that was, I was actually, You and I were talking. We were trying to find, because you were, after that weekend, he bought Matt's for his garage. Yeah, yeah.

Like, everybody, I think, kind of left that weekend, like, this is awesome. We want to do all those things. But you have that commute, right? You have to drive an hour to find somebody. Yeah, yeah. You and I were talking, you said you might have a more granular idea of being able to find somebody that could come to him, perhaps. Oh, that'd be sweet. Yeah.

Yeah, that'd be dynamite. Yeah, because the big thing is so, and this is something that everyone deals with, especially people whose profession relies on their physical capability. Jiu-Jitsu has a little barrier to entry that especially when you start, there's a much higher probability of getting injured in your first six to 12 months of training. Because A, you don't know what you're doing, and B, the people that you're going against don't know what they're doing. Possibly.

And so you are basically two idiots trying to hurt each other. Listen, two white belts is amazing. You got to do blood circle. Everybody stay away and just, I have a video of two grizzly bears beating the living shit out of each other. It's the best white belt BJJ emoji ever. They're just mawling the shit out of each other. But in those first six to 12 months, you get, now once you get past that, now you know where to position your body, you don't get caught in stupid things. And the people that you're training with know, if you guys would have trained, if Andy had been training for a month and you had been training for two weeks,

and Andy got a Camira on you and had it locked in, which is like a shoulder lock. And he was like, oh, I'm going to get Dudley. He would go hard because he's just trying to do the move that he learned. And you don't really know what's coming. And so you just fight it. And then at a certain point it gets to a spot where you can't fight it anymore. And he's applying maximum pressure.

And all of a sudden you got, you know, no shoulder. No shoulder. Yeah. Now I'm like, hey, Jocco, you got any like guest speaking spots? Yeah. Because you can't draw a bow anymore. Yeah, me and my arm sling are going to show up for this. Isn't that your favorite submission?

I heard somebody or somewhere. It might have been on Twitter asking you what you're saying? Yeah, yeah, probably the Camara. The Camero, the guillotene, and then, like, foot lock and heel hook, probably. I struggle with finishing the Camarra. I can get it sometimes, but I still need to work on the correct angle. I can dial you in on that. Shoot, let's demo on Dudley.

Dudley fight it. Yeah. Well, hey, I'm in. Yeah. Yeah. Bro, you, I do remember this, because I don't remember a lot of you and me rolling, but you, that's great. Talking about level, level nine berser.

Like, it was that bad. I don't remember shit about. I mean, I like roll all the time. So it's just, you know, hard to remember everything. But I do remember, I was like, oh, this guy's going psycho. Like, it was like I was, you know, you said your wife and your kids were there. It was like you were trying to protect them from me. Like, that's how you came at me.

I was like, cool. Let's do this. Cool here. And you are a good athlete, too, you know? And you're, you know, you're strong, you're physically aware. And you just, what do you know how to do? Yeah. You know how to be physical and like, go.

Yeah. And so you went. Well, one thing that was awesome about that. Yeah. He laughs. And you choked yourself. The one thing that was awesome that I learned from that was your patience, you, I mean, I could tell.

that you waited until you felt me just starting to lighten up enough. And then all of a sudden, I remember how slow your hand came in. Oh, the Anaconda. Yeah, it came in like real slow. And as I was like still trying to essentially hold you tight enough to where you couldn't do anything to me, you did it to me. Yeah. It would be more of a python sneaking in and getting tight. One of the things that's, you know, the more experience you have in Jiu-Jitza, it's very clear to see that,

you know what you should what's important what's not important what you can fight and what you shouldn't fight so you're going to come at me with this big storm of physicality i'm as a jihitsu player i used to call it lazy but now people instead of calling it lazy i call it you know i like to be efficient yeah yeah that's a good term right because because what the reality is hey i'm going to be lazy i don't want to fight against you you know i've been i'm going to go when i get done training with you now i'm going to train with you know a bunch of really good black belts and it's good so i'm not going to i don't want to expend a bunch of energy so you You want to go nuts for what I know is going to be about two minutes and 15 seconds.

And then when those two minutes and 15 seconds are over, you're just going to be breathing hard, you're going to be, your muscles are going to be tired. And so, cool. Now I'm just going to, you know, make, I'm going to capitalize on that fatigue. Yeah. And you're going to expose some area of weakness. Yeah. And so it's the same with, with anything, right?

I mean, with archery, like, you know what's important to concentrate on and what you know you can't control and what you just let go. Especially with teaching. Yeah. Yeah, pick, you know, I know what's going to be the most efficient right now, and I know what's not important to talk about right now because it would be overload. One of the things that I think is very clear is the fun we've had these last few days and the fun we had that, like we can't make it 12 months before we do that. Yeah.

Right. Well, all the activities, for me are awesome at least. Oh, yeah. Because you haven't been able to jump. We've hit the wind tunnel. Yeah. But you're geographically isolated from probably a good DZ. So we have to go back and do a refresher,

which means we probably should do BJJ round two. Yeah. Well, San Diego is a spot, especially now with me and Jocco's new buddy, Peter Attia. He's all, like he's all in with archery. We could do some big-time archery at his house too. Yeah. And you're obviously digging the archery.

Yeah. And I am digging jiu-jitsu and archery. So I'm in, like, let's just, just drop me an invite on the calendar. We'll just block it in. As he smiled more, I don't know if it's because he's so out of his element on this archery range, but he smiled more in the last two days than I've ever seen you smile anywhere. I've known Jocko for a while. I've seen him smile plenty, but he's definitely having a good time.

Is it when people are, like, dying or suffering from his mastermind of, like, Well, you hear that laugh right there. That certainly comes out in moments where people are just dying. Yeah. It's been good. We should make it 12 months. But, I mean, we'll be together in two months. Oh, yeah.

It's less than two months, isn't it? It's a 23rd. September. Yeah. So we will actually reconvene for some epic podcasts up there as well. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Should we even talk about what we're going to do or just leave it as a surprise? I think people know.

I think the cat's out of the bag. Yeah, you told Joe. Yeah. Or you and Joe we're talking about. Yeah. And with Joe knowing it's coming up, I can guarantee you he'll have like. No, he keeps secrets good. He doesn't ever say anything on the internets.

No. And if he did, there's not that many people who are going to hear it. Joe keeps awesome secrets, no question. But when it gets within 30 days of him getting to hunt, especially with like this camp coming up he's gonna i mean he could have like who knows who you could have some rocket scientists on and he's going to all of a sudden talk about like hey have you ever heard elk scream right a transition of the conversation yeah yeah yeah he i can tell it's it's fun because all of us have things that you have things that you do you're super busy you've got things that you're that you do i think all of

us when we want to communicate with each other, we like fire back, which is awesome. But we also know there's times when it's go time for what we do. And then there's like game time for when we're excited that we're getting ready to do something together. And that time's coming pretty damn close. And this total archery challenge that we did here, there is no better preparation for you in for this Elkhunt. And the fact that you're, you feel like you're on scout again.

Like this is, this is like white belt compared to when we go out there and this 700 pound thing is going to be screaming at you like some dude across the bar that thinks he thinks he's, I mean, right? He's just going to be like, ah! You're going to be so fired up.

Isn't he? Yeah. I've thought, I'm curious as to what your reaction will be when you hammer one of those things, and it goes down and the smile, the chuckle, all of which. He's hooked. I mean, honestly, I think he's hooked. I think it's a very fair and safe bet to say that our schedules in September will always be coordinated. That is affirmative.

Right. I think that's a pretty fair assumption, regardless of where it is at some point. We'd be idiots if we don't do that to pass up that opportunity. This gig, too. Huh? This Total Archer Challenge here in Big Sky. It's a good tune-up. Yeah.

It doesn't surprise me. You guys were talking. You know, Jocco's like, oh, man, I'm back on patrol, and I love patrolling. I'd say, I don't know, 80% of this stuff has either a direct parallel to what we used to do or some peripheral connection. Every Trevor's a good example Right same background

Evan You know Green Beret We won't hold that against him Tosh Yeah And they all They pick up a bow

And they're like Oh okay Shooting principles are the same I get to wear a camo I get to sneak around In the woods And the next thing you know I get to kill something

They become very Yes I forgot about that aspect They become very passionate about it And I think So many guys Coming from our background Would just dive right

in. As I was saying earlier, it's in, it's in a human beings, and then you corrected me. It's in, it's in most, I said it's in a man's DNA, right? And you said, Andy, you correct in me, you said there's, there's some people that's not, but it's the same primal DNA that you have when it, for me, Jiu-Jitsu, oh, you're going to fight another human being until you realize which one of you is going to dominate and win and could kill the other one. And then you're going to, that's the pecking order. That's the way it is. Hey, you know, I'm making that big statement, but let's face it, that's the underlying fact of what's happening. Like, that's what's going on. Yeah. And then, so that's, that's in your DNA.

And the first time I ever got tapped out by someone, my gut reaction was, I never want that to happen. And I need to learn whatever that person knows so that that can't happen. And so that I can do that to other people. And it's not the bullying aspect. It's just a DNA thing of, hey,

I don't want to be dominated. I don't want to have some other human being able to control me. So that's not how to. happening. So here's what, okay, there's this thing that I can learn to stop that. Okay, great. So that's in your DNA. Fighting is in your DNA. Then this thing, oh, you're going to stalk around in the woods so that you can kill your dinner. That's in your DNA. It's in my DNA. As soon as I'm looking down the site at an animal, there's a totally natural feeling of, yes, this is what you should be doing right now. And that's, you know, and I'm looking at foam animals right now, but that's

what I'm thinking. I'm thinking, oh, I'm going to sneak up to this thing and go get dinner. And that's part of a human being's DNA. And we, maybe some people let that slide or maybe they don't want that to be part of their DNA in this day and age. I think it's, or the comfort of the modern world allows them to forget. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's, I think that's why some of those primal sort of, you can, you can just get rooted to it immediately. And as soon as someone says, hey, look over here. This is something that your ancestors did, you know, was stalk around the woods with a stick trying to stab an animal. That's what your ancestors did. That's what all of our ancestors did that thing. And they had little special skills that made them good at it. They had

front facing eyes, right? They had hand-eye coordination. They have ears that are facing forward so we can hear so we can move. We got long-range vision. Yeah. Right? We can pick up movement. That's what we're born with. Yeah. Why do we born with those things? We're born with those things we can hunt down our dinner.

Yeah. That's what we're born with those things for. So as soon as someone like dud comes into your world, into my world, and says, hey, you got all those things, but here's what, here's what you can apply them right now. And when you and I join the seal teams, it was like, hey, all those things that you have, here's how you're going to apply them in your life. This is going to be part of your life now. And we're going to sharpen them.

Yes. And we're going to hone them. You're going to get good at them. And it's just, it's just so natural to feel that way. and that's why I think these two things are three things, you know, for me being in the military, for Andy being in the military, for you grown up hunting, it's like, yeah, that's just a natural thing to do. Now we're getting introduced to hunting.

It's like, or you're introduced, I'm getting introduced to hunting at this level. It's like, okay, cool, makes sense. How much better do you think society would be if the two things that you just described were mandatory, where it's like, oh, you're an adult, you're an adult now? you're going to get two years of this. And then you're going to get it, you're going to also learn this. You know,

just like what they make us take in school where you have to do math, you have to do English. What if you had to do... You're talking about mandatory service? Yeah, I'm talking mandatory service. And then I'm talking like mandatory, like real life survival skills,

whether it's, you know, camping, hunting. Like imagine if, imagine if that, what would the world be like if that was mandatory? It would definitely be better. There's no doubt. There's no doubt that it would be better. There's no doubt that if you take people, because what we're essentially talking about

is we're talking about teaching people how to be rely on themselves, right? How to be self-reliant. And when you teach people to be self-reliant, that is absolutely positive for that individual. And when you have a person that has a positive impact like that in their life, they are more secure in the way they are,

they're more secure in who they are. They become better people. And they treat other people better. And then you'd have a whole society, people that treat people better. So yeah, I would absolutely be good. I find that they're less susceptible to manipulation, too, when you can provide for yourself.

The mandatory service, I definitely agree with. I don't know if the military is the right fit for everybody, but I think you should have to serve outside of yourself and your own interest for two years. I think that would be huge. You go do the Red Cross or whatever, and I'd love to see them do it outside of the U.S. just for an enhanced optic and perspective on the rest of the world.

Well, that would be a definite life changer for a lot of people. to go somewhere where they realize, okay, wait a minute. It's not just a different country. This is a whole different world. That's the one thing that I learned traveling with the U.S. team. I learned that my privileges to hunt here in the U.S.,

that's not anything I can take for granted. Like, some people do not have that option in a lot of, ways and you can't it's foolish for the people that love to do that that love to hunt don't take that for granted because you really shouldn't you go to a different place and that's those rights have been taken away whether you go to australia and the guns are gone whether you go well they can still hunt there though i was going to say well your wife came from overseas did she grew up around hunting at all yeah actually she did what are what are her thoughts on you going hunting after she's all about it she's fine that's awesome she's sharing

It is. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Sharon's been exposed to it too. I've met some people from over the pond. They're like, why would you hunt? It's like, oh, I got to go. I have an answer for you, but I have a limited time.

Yeah. I honestly, I don't personally hold it against them when they don't, when they don't like it or don't get it. Like I go to, I've gone to. Yeah, that's their optic. I've flown through London Heathrow and my bag is gone, banished. Because it was camo. they're like, oh, this is a hunter. Freaking, that's gone.

So, I mean, I learned years ago, don't travel internationally with a camo bow case. It's not going to get there. Use a black one. Make it look like a golf bag. It'll get there all day long. Yeah. You know.

But, hey, I get it. I get it. They don't know what it's like. You know, it's not like for the two years that I was living in Liverpool with Sharon, deer. I never saw one. But as soon as she was at our house, she was there two weeks and the garden that she tried to grow, it was dead because 20 deer a night, we're eating it. It's 100% a different situation. When you see a deer bounce off the bumper of your car and in my dad's

case, come through the windshield, the rack sticks in the windshield, the body knocks all of his front teeth out of his face, which he had orthodontics for for like eight years. Well, yeah, then in that case, he loves that. I just love your dad, bad. He's awesome. I mean, I don't hold it against anyone in the EU that doesn't understand hunting because why would they? They don't, it's not the same. It's not the same in Sandy.

You know, if you go by your house, why would, Would any of those people know what it's like to be in Iowa where 750,000 deer a year killed? But you know what? They're still like, and I don't even, I won't even get the numbers right, but it's still like tens of millions of dollars of automobile damage insurance claims just on deer collisions. So it's a necessity. you know, regulation is a necessity. They would never understand it. Sharon does now.

She's like, oh, yeah, I get it. I'm totally cool with shooting hogs. I'm totally cool with shooting turkeys. I'm totally cool with shooting deer. You know, there's other things where she's like, ah, I'm good. You know, I know you like that. I'll certainly eat it, you know, if you bring it home.

But, you know, I'm personally not going to go out and do it. But there's also things where she's like, yeah, I can, in my mind, I can easily just, testify the fact that I'm actually helping things by doing this. Yeah. Makes sense to me. I mean, I have the same conversations with people who live in,

like, downtown New York. It depends on your optic. Yeah. To them, I mean, I don't know. I would want to have a longer conversation about how their steak ended up wrapped at Whole Foods.

You know, but I just avoid it because to each their own. Hey, dude, I was in New York. I was in New York with Sharon and a buddy of mutual buddy of ours, Torsten, we were actually trying to meet Torsten at a restaurant.

I feel that Jocka would love Torsten, actually. Yeah, yeah, he would. He's 150% German. Yeah, his sense of humor and personality is awesome. Yeah, it's great. So I'm trying to meet Torsten at this restaurant and I'm looking at my phone,

but because of the buildings, it's not picking up the signal of like where I need to go. And I'm two blocks from this restaurant. So I stopped a guy and I said, hey man, you're from around here? He goes, yeah. I said, well, I kind of need help. I'm from out of town. Do you know where this restaurant is?

He goes, yeah, I have no idea. And I'm like, okay. And he legitimately looked like he had no idea. It was like, I don't know where that is. Like looking at the name. And I'm like, okay, thanks. I walked past the guy and took a right. It was right there.

It was a block and a half. from this dude. He had no idea. It's a dead city, man. Yeah. They, like, some people just never get outside their walls. You know, and their walls may only bleed a few blocks. It's, I mean, in a way, it's a bummer.

Yeah. If people had a mandatory clause to go out, experience life outside of those walls, know what it's like to, know what it's like to have a shitty situation. for a few months at a time. Know what it's like to where everybody around you have to work together. Otherwise, no one's going to have a good time. But if all of us do a little bit of something the same day, we're all going to have a good time.

This will be a good time. I agree. The one thing I think is cool about Mormons. I think Mormons get a bad rap. This is going down the toilet. I'm just, that's a great opening sentence. It has unlimited possibilities. Well, I say that because some of the nicest people I know are Mormons and what I really like about the fact.

Oh, the mission. Yeah. I think that's super cool because several of the, and I've hired several camera people that come and film hunts for me. And the stories these guys have, it's the best. When you're sitting there at night, it's totally dark. You can't sleep. And I'm like, tell me a story. and they're like this one time I was on this mission trip in Peru

and I mean the list goes on and on and I think I honestly think that's why they're really good people is because they've experienced these things you know they've kind of like gone outside their nest for two years they had to they had to experience things without mom or you know without the comfort of you know someone being able to come and you know being able to type in an Uber and then come get you.

I mean, I think that's, like, critical. I think there's huge value there. I always think it's interesting. Or I think the first thing that really shocked me about going overseas when I was a young, you know, young guy in the military was when I went to the first place where they didn't have, you couldn't drink the tap water. And that is, in America, we completely take that for granted. That the very, the very liquid of life, water.

Yeah. It just comes to us out of everything. Every faucet that we have. The majority of our body. You can walk out to the hose pipe in my yard and just suck on that thing and it's completely clean. Or any random park. Any random park anywhere. And you got this awesome water.

And then you go overseas and, you know, there's a little sign. You're in a hotel and actually in a nice hotel. Yeah. And there's a sign that goes above the, above the faucet that says, you know, don't drink this water. There's bottled water in the fridge. And you think, wow. And you're in a really nice hotel in a foreign country. And you say, wow, that's crazy.

and then, you know, you go down from there to a third world country where, you know, there's no bottled water and there's no water from the tap. There's no tap. Yeah. And you got, that's, that's, that's the level of comfort that we have in this country that we should be very appreciative of, no doubt. And if you do travel overseas, you'll see that and that will enhance your perspective. And it will, I'll go ahead and say, not just enhance, it will actually improve your perspective on life. And you'll appreciate simple things that we have here in this country and in, in other. countries in the world where you go, yeah, this is, we have it pretty good right now. Oh, we have it too good.

I think it would round the edges on, I don't like the common terms, but the outrage culture, for lack of a better word, I think it would really round some of those edges. Like, what is it exactly you're upset about right now? Simmer down, just a touch. Well, there's people that are so happy, like the happiest days of their life, if you gave them fresh water. Yeah. Right.

It would change their life. Yeah. If they had 100% access to fresh water, yeah. I did a three-week coaching thing in a third world country where the train ride in looked like a train from Indiana Jones where like if you had to go to the bathroom, you slide the door open, you hold on the two handrails, and you squat like between the two trains and like the letter-approved.

Definitely OSHA approved. Good to go. And while that's happening, there's like farm animals on farm animals on the train. Yeah. Hey man. I'm sure you've been to the third world countries where they just stop and what they're doing and do that on the side of the road. Oh, without a doubt. Yeah.

And then I was on, you know, I was on this train and I specified like, hey man, if I'm going to come here and do this. I need like first class, which I knew in my mind first class, it wouldn't be like first class here, but it would be safer. Okay. And meanwhile, they're carrying body bags on the train, laying them in the aisle. Yeah.

And I'm looking at the bags. There's people holding animals like going where they're going. and there's dudes sliding the back window open, squatting down, pointing their dick backwards out the back of the door, holding on freaking letting her rip. And I'm thinking, we have it so freaking easy.

Why are they pointing their dick backwards? Because they got the full togas all the way down. So I don't think that's the correct tactical term. It is, too. Pull it up. Friken hold on the thing. Full tuck back. Drop it.

Let it rip. Yeah. Yeah. That was it. Going in hot. First class, baby. First class. But you know what?

To talk truth about that whole thing, those were the best students I've ever had an archery. Because if I told them to do something, they knew if they did it good. They could make it out of that, and they could be a top-level athlete, win a medal, be a hero in that country. Change their life. Go from living in a cardboard box, stacked in a building that's got freaking bullet holes through it, to now they're living in an Olympic center where they get three meals a day and bottled water.

Yeah. Perspective. Different optic. Definitely a different optic. That's a good idea. for human beings to do is to always try and understand what other people's perspective, even what you just did when you're talking about people that don't like hunting. Yeah.

And you said, well, you know, I just try and understand their perspective. They don't even, and even you said the same thing, Andy, a little bit harsher. But you said, hey, they just don't even understand where that steak in Whole Foods came from. Yeah. They don't, they don't ever connect those dots. And if you connected those dots, they'd look at, they'd put the whole picture together and they'd see that that hunting is actually the best possible. possible way to do that.

But again, if you don't take their perspective, all you do is just say, oh, they're stupid, they don't get it. And that doesn't improve anything. It just makes you angry. And it makes them angry. And you have great conversations together. Yeah. Well, from a hunting perspective, you know, there's people that call me a killer because I go out

and kill something and I eat it. But honestly, I feel way better about being out here. It's July. I'm training. I'm training for September, and I've been training. I want to be efficient in September. In September during that month, I put 90% of the food that's in our freezer. I put it in there in September.

I'm still eating my bowl from last year. That's totally true. Yeah, that thing lasts a year. We just served 100 people that elk that you meet, me, you, and Barclow packed off the mountain here in Montana. Yep. Right. We just ate half pound elk burgers served 200 pounds of it. And it was because of the hard work that we put in.

But I'm way, way more comfortable knowing that I paid the dues. I bought the tag, paid the price, shot it. Did the training. Yeah. Yeah. We're prepared. Yeah. Packed it out.

And now I can share that wherever I may. and I know where it came from 100%. Like for me, I'm totally down with that. It's... Well, people who say that to you... It's hard for me to... It's actually hard for me to buy something in a store because deep down, I'm like,

where did this really come from? You know? Well, let's be honest. Outsourcing murder doesn't make your hands clean. Yeah. I mean, you're still involved in the process. Maybe you're just putting a couple of veils up

that you don't want to look at. Like, the people who call you a killer, okay but also if you choose to willingly participate in just about any type of consumption you're just outsourcing that process to somebody else your hands are not clean you know what's funny is i was it's all perspective too it's funny it's funny people's tolerance levels because i've tested it i tested it with uh before our bear hunt yeah you remember all those i was showing all these meals i don't know if you show if you saw that but i showed this full leg, full big rear quarter on a grill, slow cooking.

And I showed that and I'm like, you know, who would eat? You know, I'm going to slow cook this for 20 hours. Who's down? And it was like 4,000 likes. Oh, dude, that looks sick. Next one was a, was it two huge pans of lasagna on my grill smoking. You know, lasagna, who's ready for dinner? One was four.

Fahitas was like the next one. Yeah, yeah. So then it was, uh, Yeah, it was like fajitas, and then we did a stir fry. I did a stir fry. Dude, it was 16,000 likes. So then I posted a picture of a dead bear. And I'm like, by the way, those four meals were from this bear.

And it was like crickets. It's funny, the acceptance, like, you know, what the tolerance is. When I came here, when we pulled into Big Sky, I parked the trailer, and I looked up, I've got a big, that big, you know, knock on nation flag on the bulk of the fifth wheel header. And I bet it has a million dead mosquitoes on it. And I thought, okay, I know there's somewhere that has a serious problem with hunters and they dog hunters. They're full like pita supporters. but they'll pull that fifth wheel all over this country for like vacation time and they're just

murdering millions of mosquitoes. So what's the difference? Is there? In my mind, well, I don't really think too much about this stuff. You know, like people that say they don't like into.

No, no, but people that say they don't like me for one reason or another. I'm not really super concerned about it, you know? I know that I know that some people don't like me. None of us. Yeah.

None of a see, that's like, you know, being, yeah, I'm not, you know, I'm not, I'm not purposely abrasive to people. And in fact, I generally am a pretty neutral person, you know, and you can judge me. But, yeah, I'm not too super concerned about it. People ask me about you all the time. They're like, hey, even my son Tyler, he's like, is Chaka going to be here? He said, yeah. He's like, all right, I'm pretty scared to him. I'm going to go watch him from a distance.

I'm like, well, first off, that's creepy. but second off he's actually an incredibly nice guy so just go introduce yourself yeah interesting what were your thoughts on the event it was awesome it was awesome it was awesome to come up here and you know for me this was like the first time i was shooting 3d on a big course like this i did a little bit at peter's house with a how were the shooting lanes at peter's house cleaner perhaps much it's funny because you know at peter's house there's a couple where there's a little bit of foliage in the way. And, you know, we're kind of, oh,

you know, this is a tough one. And then this was just ridiculous. It was totally ridiculous. But the cool thing was it for me, I like pressure. Yeah. And I like it when things are, the, the, the, the shots that I blew today were easier shots. Yep. The, the shots I blew today were easier shots that I was like, oh, walked up to the line, cocky, you know, not over the top cocky, but walked up with a thought of like, hey, I shot this yesterday. Cool, I'm going to knock this out. And if I screwed up a shot, it was one of those shots. The shots that were hard, tight lanes, weird positions, I was focused.

Those were the shots. I was nailing those shots. So, and it took me until later in the day where I said, oh, when you don't, when you don't focus and you don't do what you're supposed to do, you can miss. If you do what you're supposed to do, you won't miss. So how was the event? The event was awesome. The lanes are tight.

The distances are far. and it's cool when you come to a target that's only 56, you know, and you're like, oh, cool, and you're all stoked. You're like, yeah. Yeah, because you go 78, 93, you know, 62, and then you get to one that's 44, and you're oh, cool. It looks huge in your peep. What about who decided to put the one-third-size elk at 77?

You, I was actually, I actually stood. I stood at that cone. I don't even know. He broke something. Yeah. I did. What did you break? I think it was just this metal thing.

Yeah. Oh, it's just a broom. Yeah. It's just a broom. I stood at that cone at 77. I just like, Dudley is such an asshole. This elf looked like to blame me.

Jaco was there. It looked like the size of a cat. And that was one of those shots that, honestly, I didn't, I didn't mind that shot. I walked up that shot and I was like, oh, cool. It was very easy to see.

There was a good contrast. It stood out. And I was like, oh, this is, and I hit it yesterday. Yeah. And I was. was like, oh yeah, I'm going to knock this thing out today.

And I missed it. And that was like one of the shots I missed. It was a shot that I was just overconfident. And it was a pretty wide lane. There was a couple little apex. It was relatively open. Yes. It was relatively open.

It was very easy to see too. I wonder how much of your miss. Was your miss today high, low always? A little bit of both. Okay. Because when I set in, when I sighted in your bow, it was cited in with my rangefinder. Yeah. And we had a very, because you bought a brand new one.

Yes. And there was a difference between the two, which is critical. Yeah. Your rangefinder was giving you different numbers than mine today, especially on the Caribou target. I got it at 92. You got it at 95. Yeah.

And so where did you shoot? And I shot it at 92. I shot 33 and low. And he came in low. And where did you shoot? It was a 12 ring. And yesterday. And yesterday, what?

And yesterday, straight up liar. I shot your. I shot your number yesterday and hit it. I shot my number today and was low. Did you shoot under the mini elk? The mini elk? I went over. Just over like an inch over the back.

I can't really miss his back. I'd be curious to check that. It's tough to tell when you're standing off to the side. And you know what? As much as I'm like saying range finder and all this stuff, here's the deal. I had bad procedures. I didn't do what I was supposed to do. But the range finder is a legitimate thing.

I know. Barklow last week had a horrendous issue with the range funders saying, what, 10 yards difference? Oh, yeah. You're going to whiff like a blind man out there shooting. All I can say is, I'm glad I'm done with that course. That caribou, I freaking donuted that thing twice. That was, you know, you're very impressive to shoot with, but that was my first time seeing you shoot. Like, that was 100 yards uphill.

There was a major wind blowing. And you put that thing in the 12. I couldn't even see the rings. Yeah. And you put in the 12 ring, I said, hmm, that's impressive. You smoked a Bigfoot, though, on this round, right? I got it yesterday, too. I actually put in the same spot.

I looked at where he hit, and I seen a green arrow there, and I thought, damn, he hit within two inches of where he hit yesterday. I called a cockshot on that thing and nailed it. I did legitimately call it. Did you hear me? Did the Bigfoot scream off the top? I tried. I did actually.

I was like, ooh, hoo! I was doing cow calls down there, too, and we were below you. You didn't even answer. I heard. I heard. There's a good topic that came up from this. If you're in the wilderness, you're bow hunting, and you see Sasquatch. Yep.

And what do you do? Do you? You asked us both this question. No, this is, yeah, we need to lead in with this. So one day prior, we're setting up Bigfoot. And of course, you know, there's maybe four of us there. and I'm with with jaco it's one of these moments where I know no one's around

so he's not going to give me like a jaco response so I said hey I said okay we're out hunting or you're out middle of nowhere this sucker just pops out

what do you do and you looked at me and you go at what distance and I'm like why and you go at this distance I would do something a little bit like this and you go, oh,

and then you go, wait, no, no. That was a little bit too aggressive. I would do it more like this. Question mark. Yeah, and you're like, more like, are we cool? And then, and then you're like,

ooh, ooh, and so fast, and I thought, okay, this kind of sounds like nonsense. Fast forward, it made sense, but in a way I'm like, is he quizzing me right now? Like, why did he,

go this deep into this question. This would have been, for me, it would have been like, no, I'll shoot that sucker. I don't know. I'd kind of hunker down, let him slinker off and be like, you'll never believe it. I freaking saw a Bigfoot. No, it was way deeper. He was legitimately like, give me the scenarios, like lay out all the pieces. Don't just tell me one little piece of this game that we're playing.

So then one day later, I ask Andy, I go, okay, there's a Bigfoot. What would you do? then the first thing you say is you're like, what's the distance? So, okay, seal team. You got to manage your time space and distance, man. There's a lot of things. If he's 20 feet from me, that could be real bad, real quick. If he's 100 meters from me, I got all kinds of time to play with and try and figure out

what he's doing and what's going on. So if he's 100 meters, you give him the question mark. If he's at 20 meters, is it like, 20 meters? Is it like, who, 20 meters, I'm probably drawing down on him as I'm doing some kind of communication.

What would it be? 20 meters. So you're at full drawn, and he looks at you, then what do you do? And I'm like, er. Because I want him to know that I mean business.

But I also don't want it to be like, I don't want to scream just gnarly at him because that might trigger him. And he's coming at me. Now I've got to dump him. We're so far deep down this hypothetical. situation. I just love that. That's what's awesome about us is we both, we, every time I'm with you, we like go outside of our realm. Every time with you, we go outside of our realm. And it's funny

because we both know, like, we both know how we are if we're in our element where I'm only teach and archer and everyone wants me serious like in this. And then if you're doing your, your, your corporate stuff. Like, I know you... I'm gonna be totally honest. I'm exactly the same in that environment too. I don't have an energy to have alternate personalities. I've said some wildly inappropriate shit.

I try to be professional, though. I still try to be professional. I have floated some wildly inappropriate things in very large audiences and got some great feedback on it, actually. It's in the delivery. It's in the delivery. For sure. Yeah, I think it's, uh,

I don't know. This sort of thing, just like with the three of us, this whole vibe right here, what we're doing, we're legitimately able to relax and just enjoy life. I mean, it's unreal. What do you think would be the best way, Jocko, to expose more people from our background to this type of stuff? This is what we're doing.

Just talking about it. Spread the word. Yeah. Yeah, talking about it spread the word. And what I like about, too, we're hanging out here, at your camper and everything is meeting the people that are out here and they come from all walks of life you know we just met shylo who's a welder you know i was talking to another guy earlier that that's uh does road maintenance down in in ohio maybe but just just and then there's people that are working in the finance world i mean you get everybody out lawyers lawyers whatever so you get blue-collar folks you get white-collar folks you got military you got cops you got cops you got got everyone out here and, you know,

no one's wearing any of that on their sleeve. Everyone's out here. What are they trying to do? They're trying to put, they're trying to hit that foam. Yeah. Maybe Dudley's tried to hit the 10 ring or the 12 ring. I'm over here trying to hit foam.

Jock and I aren't talking about the day. He's like, what are you aiming at? I said foam. If I get to pull that arrow out of the foam, success. It's a win. Yeah. I think it's, I think one of the things you said earlier is really important to talk about a little bit more is

people really need to get better at understanding the fact that pressure on them can make them better. Because for me, if I go out and practice by myself, it's like a whole new environment. But when I go up there and as soon as I'm with these new people, and honestly, a big part of me why I do this is because it's a a test for me of do I still have it. And I don't know it until I look over and there's everyone filming. Like the cameras are rolling, everyone's going. And it's like, okay, they're here to see you do what you say you're freaking good at. And that pressure is what makes that person come out.

You know, it's like part of me, there's. There's times where, I don't know, there's times where I feel like mentally I can't be in a full competitive mode all the time. But it's like that little push, like, you know, it's like that little, like when Tony Stark went up, poked Bruce Banner. It's not a good reference. I was actually asking Jocko today about Iron Man and he looked me dead in the face and I've never seen that movie. Of course he hasn't. Of course he hasn't. But, you know. What's cool about this, and you and I were talking about this a couple times, is what I like about that is when you're under pressure, I asked you this yesterday, when you're under pressure, what do you do?

And you're like, oh, when I'm under pressure, what I do is I go back to following my protocols. Yeah. It's not like, it's not like. But it draws in the focus tighter. But here's the mistake people make. And you said this multiple times today out on the range. When you, oh, this is a pressure shot. So I'm going to aim hard.

And if you aim harder, you will miss bigger. And if you do what you're supposed to do and you, you know, you're pointing at that white rabbit up, that little thing. And instead of thinking about like, I'm going to hit that white rabbit, which Trevor told me today, he goes, I tried harder. I wanted to get it like tighter. Yeah. And he missed. He hit the tree. He hit the tree.

He hit the tree. Because he was aiming harder. I was under pressure. I felt the pressure of like, I got to get this done again. I know, I knew 100% you were going to ask me when we got back like, hey, did you get the rabbit again? I knew that 100%. There was one target you were going to ask me about. That was the one.

So the pressure was up in my head, and I knew what I had to do was not aim, not do anything different, follow the protocol, do what you're supposed to do, and that's what I did. And that's why it's a good shot. And every other time, every shot that I didn't make like that was when I was going, ah, you know, I got this or this is no big deal. I did this yesterday. I didn't do what I was supposed to do. Follow the protocol.

And so, yes, that pressure forces you, in a good way. It should force you to do what you're supposed to do. It should also make you recognize that if you take that pressure and you translate it into, now I'm going to aim harder, or now I'm going to, and this is something I see in a leadership perspective, you'll see someone that feels the pressure of leadership, so they try and lead harder, okay? What does that mean? That means they're barking orders. That means they're not listening to anyone else.

They're trying to be on output the whole time. They're not being on receive mode at all. They're in all send mode. So they're trying to lead harder So they're not listening to anybody And it actually makes them make mistakes And it makes other people look at them And say, oh, they're not listening to anybody

So when they try and lead harder, they do worse What they should do is follow the protocol What they should do is they should detach from that situation They should take a step back And be like, okay, I'm going to listen to what's happening When you're shooting like, okay, I'm just going to take a step back I'm going to get out You know, my brain is the thing that's going to make a mistake

My brain is the thing My, my, if I tell myself To put my knuckle by my ear, it's going to go there. Yeah. It's when I let my brain start trying to say, fire that thing now. Yeah.

That's when you make mistakes. So that's what I like about the pressure. It forces you to do what you're supposed to do. It exposes if you are going to let your brain get the upper hand on what you're supposed to be doing. If you're going to let your emotions, let me put it out. If you're going to let your emotions and your adrenaline get control over what you're supposed to be doing, you're going to make mistakes. Or the majority.

Do you remember on that caribou today? Everyone was telling me what I should shoot it for. I'm like, no, no, no. I'm going to step back. I'm going to, like, go through my process, and I'm going to tell all you what I'm going to shoot it for, right? Yeah. Well, I intentionally often tell you the wrong distance.

Yeah. Never listen to anything you say. Now, what you're talking about, though, is controlling the situation or let the situation control you. Absolutely, yeah, yeah. But I will say this. Stress inoculation and pressure, and I'm sure you both would agree. You cannot jump in.

Your first day as an archer to jump into everybody with their cameras up filming you, that stress would unwind you. Yeah, I was shit and pickles. Well, you have a breadth and depth of experience in that, and I'm not going to say inoculation. I think it's more you learn how to operate inside of that. I think that's a good word for it. I don't know.

I mean, everybody has a limit, I guess. Probably the correct term is acclamation. Yeah. But it's applied over time. Like your leadership, right, and the ability to lead, that's developed over a career. If your first day isn't, oh, well, you might be different because you had prior enlisted experience. But you take an 01 from the academy and drop men as a TU commander in Ramadi. Yeah.

Stand by. It's going to be problematic. Yes. Well, their ability to become overwhelmed is instantaneous. Something that you would waste no bandwidth on a decision. Or like you would just, like, that's not even important. Get the fuck out of here with that. They'd be like, oh, my God, I need an answer.

and then it's over. Same thing as I'm sure just bring somebody in there, bring Evan to Vegas tournament and be like, oh, by the way, you're shooting in this round to five with,

this is actually the metal round. Go ahead and step up and you're right in between the two world champs. Well, you guys saw it. You know, it's actually hard for me because I 100%

feel, I feel like, I feel my best at what I'm giving back and what I'm doing back and what I'm doing, I feel my best when I see people doing great things based off information that I gave them. And what's hard is it takes acclamation for people to feel comfortable around me.

And I know that. Like I try to come in, you know, I almost try to like soften the situation as fast as possible because I know some people feel extremely uncomfortable and I get it. but the one thing I encourage people to do is if you get in that situation and you feel that for the first time, don't avoid it. Don't all of a sudden be like, you know what? I got put in charge of this thing. I went out there. I was all nervous.

You know, I had to speak in front of my whole team for the first time. I was kind of talking nonsense. I was jittery. Yeah, I'm not going to do that again. No, what you need to do is you need to do it again. instantly. And then you need to do it again again. Because the more you do it, it just gets, you get to be numb to it.

But if you don't do it a lot, you won't. It'll be new every time. It'll always feel new. But when it's just constant, constant, constant, constant. That's the one thing that when I competed, I competed every weekend. So to go and shoot with the best guys in the world, it was just another day on the practice range. What makes it hard for me is when I go away from that

from a long period of time and then come back in because I'm jumping into this pool that I haven't touched that hot water in a long time. I want my toes acclimated to where they know what hot water is, but it doesn't feel hot, right? Yeah, yeah. It's acclamation. That's what it is. 100%

Yeah. Andy. I agree. I just think you got to take your time, acclimatizing. You mean you can get too much pressure too fast? Just too much pressure. I have seen unwind people. It's the proper application of pressure over time to build them up.

So you're talking about as a trainer, not as the trainee. And I guess you could say from the trainee, if you're getting overwhelmed, you need to go, okay, look, you need to back off. Probably more from the trainer's perspective. But from the trainer's perspective, hey, I'm not going to smash you. with 8,000 things at once because you won't, you'll just, you'll just fall. One of the most concrete examples I can give you that is when I was in second phase,

administering pool comp. I can, because I control when you are breathing, I can take this test from zero to 100 in about 60 seconds. I will get your heart rate up and you will breathe what I want you to. And I can take people, they're just done, right? There's only a limit that you can take.

Or as an instructor, you can learn the finesse. You can see a couple of the physical gestures of nervousness, the shaking. For me, it was the monkey paw. That was the first indication that you were getting ready to lose your shit. Their hands would, they would claw up, and then they would plant their foot on the ground. And if I applied more pressure in that moment, they're going to try to rock it to the surface. But maybe I'd go down and I take out the inhalation problem that's bothering them.

They can come back from that. So I could force them to fail the test because I applied too much pressure, or I could back it off and actually get an idea because what is pool comp? It has nothing to do with diving. It's procedures. Think of it as the most heinous diving test that has nothing to do with diving.

You will follow the procedure whether you can breathe or not. If you deviate from the procedure, you fail. You fail the test four times. See you later. Have fun and whatever the rest of your journey is. Yeah. And it's all about pressure, controlling when they can breathe. I think it's more of art than a science for sure.

as somebody teaching. For me, I have found, and I was surprised to find this, I think the most rewarding thing I do in my life right now is teaching. I love it. And I equate public speaking and interfacing with brands and organizations to be teaching more than anything, trying to impart the knowledge that I was super fortunate to have passed on to me. To them, I've been amazed at how rewarding I have found that to be. It's the most rewarding thing that I do. 100% for me. Yeah. Coming here, like what we just did, you know, we came. inside Andy's trailer and to do this podcast

but outside I mean we shot with 100 people today that there's no better feeling for me than seeing someone to where when as soon as they pull their bow back and I see their technique I know I'm like this guy's

watched my videos he's a hundred percent or he or she they're applying something that I put out there and said, hey, here's how you do it. It's free. You put in the work and you're going to reap the reward.

And I mean, it was dozens and dozens and dozens of people that were just these mirrors of 40 minutes that they could watch on YouTube. Yeah, so you and I were talking about this earlier. So I was like recording, it was probably my third, maybe my fourth podcast, something like that. And I'll dig back and figure out what the actual item was. But there was an item that I was, somebody had asked a question, and there was an item that I was going to answer this question.

And I knew that in answering this leadership question, I was going to be giving away, for all practical purposes, a secret of leadership that I have. Yeah, some IP. And I thought to myself, you know what, maybe because, you know, as I teach leadership to companies, that's what I do. And so here I was going to just give this away to everyone that wants it for free, and it'll be out there forever and anyone can take it.

This thing that I figured out. And it's a good, powerful, powerful tool. And I was sitting there thinking, you know what? Part of my brain was saying, like, and I would say it's a small part of my brain. It was like, no, you need to hang on to this thing. This is like a little superpower that you can have and you can, this is what you're about this.

This is a little nugget. You can throw out where people are, you know, I've listened to everything Jocco's done. I've never heard that. And in the moment, you know, right, you know, almost as soon as I thought that little, evil weak thought, I thought to myself, I'm going to absolutely say this. And not only that, everything that I can possibly give to people, I'm going to give to them. If I think it and I know it,

I'm going to give it away and let people have it. And there's a couple reasons why. Number one is, as you guys have both just said, there's nothing more gratifying than having someone send me a message that says, hey, had that issue at work, talk to my supervisor. You were right 100% turntables. I'm get, you know, everything worked. Thank you, blah, blah, blah. That's absolutely gratifying. The other thing is, here's the reality. It takes discipline and it takes effort to actually do what you're saying, John.

Yeah. What you're saying, any, what I say, I can tell someone a hundred times that, hey, this is how you do it. And there's still people that they refuse to accept it. They don't, they want to add their own little ego to it. And things don't work the way they're supposed to because, and you know, it's like, like, John, with you, you're like, hey, 93 point or 95. And I'm like, cool, I'm going to go over here and dial in 93.5. Why?

Because, hey, I'm thinking that I'm going to branch off a little bit right now because I shot for a day on the range, so I must be good to go. So I branch off a little bit, but it's not the right thing to do. And there's a mistake that's being made somewhere. And I screwed up one of the variables. And now we don't even know which variable it was because I threw another variable into it. So was that possibly the variable? Absolutely.

it could have been, there could have been three other things, but now we don't know what they are. So even when you lay information out for people, that's the best thing you can do is give it to them so that they can try and take it. They can try and apply it. If they do it well, then yes, they will make incredible progress. There's so few people that will put the time and effort into it that it's just a win. It's just a win to give it away. If someone, hey, man, if someone wants to put the time and effort into it and they get it and they can run with it and they could take it and turn it into something great, man, more power to it. I'm stoked that they can do that. I'm happy to see it happen. So that's when you were talking about that today, that's the exact same thing that I thought

about. And I know that people take your stuff and repackage it, right? Some people take what I say and repackage it and try and make it their own. Hey, you know what? There's two things that happen. Number one, fine, they're going to get the message out there. But number two, when somebody says what I say from like a surface level, anyone that talks to that person for two more minutes, realizes that they don't actually understand what they're talking about. They don't actually have the depth of knowledge. So I could walk out on the line, on the archery line, and say, hey, you want your front hand to be loose, right?

I could do that. Hey, you know, I could walk out and say, hey, you want to get your nose on the line and not too much facial pressure because I really know what I'm talking about. I could do that. But if that person talks to me for 30 more seconds, they're going to realize that all I'm doing, I'm just a monkey that's repeating what I heard. Your worst fear is a follow-up question. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And it's the same thing with leadership. Like, if you ask someone about a leadership and they'll give an answer that maybe they heard me say or they read it directing their book. And it's like, it's good. It's a surface answer. And if the person can take that and run with it and it works from okay, they get that follow-on question. And all of a sudden you can see someone and you can see what they do is they try and pull modules of information together and put them in place and they just don't fit right. And it's really obvious. You know what I call those people?

the people that the people that look at all your information but they really don't apply it but they just i call them ask holes check it's just they ask and ask and ask and ask and you tell them the same thing because hey granny's recipe for for her cinnamon buns that were freaking awesome granny's recipe doesn't change she's going to tell you this is how i do them Oh, wait, you tried it and did it work? Oh, you use baking powder, not baking soda. I told you used baking powder.

If they ask Andy something, me something, you something, things that we feel confident and given a response to, we tell them the same things. But sometimes they realize, oh, wait, Jocka tells me if I really want to get strong, I need to also incorporate squats. Well, I don't like that. I'm going to still, I'm going to do, I'm going to do like the,

bench thing. And I'm going to do the calf raise. Yeah, I'm going to do the calf raise thing. And I'm going to, you know, I'm going to do the pull-ups. I'm going to do the kettlebells. But the squat, I'm not cool with that. So then he comes back and he says, hey, what should I do for legs? Well, you got to do squats.

And then guess what? He goes and he does like legs lead. Yeah, you know what a lot of people. Some people do. This is a similar thing is people look for the advice that they want to hear. Yeah. So if I ask you, hey, how many arrows a day do I have to shoot? And you're like, hey, you got to shoot 30 to

50 arrows a day. And I'm like, God, it's too many. I don't really want to do that. And I go, Andy, how many arrows do you think I need to shoot? And he goes, probably 20. Probably 15 or 20. And I'm like, cool. That's what I'm going with Andy. You know, just because that's the advice. And that's the advice I wanted to hear. Yeah. And that, I see a lot of people that do that. They look for the advice to want to hear that they preconceive is, is the right advice. And it matches the narrative that they're trying to fill their world with. And they find, you can find somebody. can Google on the internet, someone that counters everything that any of us could say right now. You know, whether it's what to eat, how to work out, how to shoot. Six minute abs, dude.

Six minute abs. No matter what you say, there's somebody that is saying something the opposite. So if you want to find the bad information, or you want to find information that matches what you think? Just look. Cool. Go get it. Yeah, just keep looking. You'll find it. You'll find it. Why do you think so few people are willing to put in the time and effort? It's hard. It's hard. Some of it's hard. Some of its lack of understanding and one of the biggest obvious obstacles to to the reason we don't want to put in time and effort is is ego it's ego we know from a leadership perspective it's like hey i really don't you know i don't lead that way and and this is one of the things that i see from from my company so we work with a lot of different companies the companies that the companies that want us to come in

the companies that say hey we need help with our leadership first of all the companies that are saying that, those are companies that are almost always doing well. They're almost always doing well, and they're like, hey, we're doing pretty well right now. We want to do even better. We're, you know, we're at 80 percent. We want to be at 100 percent capacity. They're not in a crisis. They're not in a crisis. And they're wanting us to come in and they're humble. So that right there says that they're humble. That's why they want help. Yeah. Sometimes we get brought in, let's say, by the board of a company that says, hey, this company's losing money. They're failing. We want you to go help their leadership. We think it's a leadership problem. And I say,

oh, it is a leadership problem. So we go in there. And what are those people think? those, that leadership thinks it's, hey, we don't really need you. The problem that's going on, the problem said we need to. The board told us, but listen, you don't know what the problem is. The problem is the market. The problem is our competitors. The problem is actually the board itself, which isn't given us the right funding that we need. So the problem isn't us. So we're doing everything right. Now, I know we're losing whatever a million and a half dollars a month right now, but that's not our fault. It's the fault of the market. It's the fault of the competitors. It's no one, it's not our fault. So they're not looking to,

change their leadership. Yeah. And those are the people are going to be a problem. So if you, John, have someone that says, you know, hey,

I'd like to shoot with you. I really don't need any coaching, though. Like, you know, how much are you going to be able to help that guy? Yeah. You're not going to be able to help that guy.

You, if you say, hey, you know, I notice that you do this. He'll be like, well, you know, I like to do it that way. Well,

you could say, and you know, you could say, hey, that's cool. Just so you know, I've been shooting since I was 14 years old and I've got multiple, you know, world titles under my belt.

And, you know, this is a really good way. And here's the actual reason why this is better. And I could look at you if I got a big ego and say, yeah, but for me, it's different. And that's why I, you know, range at 93.5 and not 95. Do you ever get companies that will hit you up and like, hey, do you understand leadership in this sector? Yes.

Yeah. That's a very common opening question. And the very common opening answer is, Hey, listen, leadership is the same in every sector. I know, I chuckle it. I don't actually chuckle out loud when people ask me at that, but it's like, yes. And also, if you come to me thinking that the leadership in your sector is unique or a unicorn, here's a fistful of red flags that you might want to take a look at.

You've got a bunch of human beings that you're trying to get to do something, and you're trying to get him to do it in the most efficient and effective way together in a unified way. That's going to be the same, whether it's a seal platoon, whether it's a financial company, whether it's a manufacturing company, whether it's a construction company, it doesn't matter what it is. What you've got is a bunch of random humans

that you're trying to align and move in one direction. And they're going to have the same resistance. And there's different types of people and there's every person is different and every person is the same, right? So in a seal platoon or in a C-suite of a company, you've got the same cast of characters. You got this guy who's an egomaniac.

You got this other person that's a slacker. You got this other person that's got a really open mind but is just a complete scatterbrain. Like you see these common characters all the time. And then how are they all going to fit together? Because those common characteristics, those common traits, those common people that you see over and over again, each one of those people is also totally radically different

from any other human being in the world. So that's what you're dealing with. You're dealing with this dichotomy of people. people being similar, but at the same time, people, everyone's different. And you probably see that with coaching people. Like, you know, you know when you look at me, you go, he's one of those guys. You know, you see the way I pull back, I'm whatever. Whatever you saw the first time you saw me pull back, you said to yourself, oh, he's one

of those guys, right? He's one of those guys. And then you watch me for a little while and you go, okay, he's also got this little idiosyncrasy that Jocko does. He does this. He does that. But you have me in a broad category. And you, the first time you saw Andy shoot, you're like, oh, Andy, Andy,

does, he's this kind of guy. And you see someone else that's super nervous. You see someone else that's super tense. You see someone that's too relaxed and lets things slide. Like, you've got a, you've got common characteristics. But then on top of those, you see these individual human traits that you have to specifically say, okay, Jocko, because you've got, you know, a tight neck, you don't move this. Here's an adjustment that you can personally make that will help you.

Oh, okay, cool. You know what I think is important about that is? There's times where you bring or you try to bring people in that are a specialist in that field. And sometimes they look at it and they look at it. And if they're really, really, really good, if they're really, really good, they don't have to help you. If they help you, it's because they want to. And if they want to, it's because they know that you're willing to accept what they're getting ready to teach.

with both of you when I watched Andy for the first time. I'm like, this guy listens and he applies. When I talked about that team in a third world country earlier, those were some of my favorite students because they would do the same thing I said until they bled. Because in the end, they knew if I put this to work, I'll make the team. I'm going to make a better life for myself.

I'm going to get out of this cardboard box that my family lives in. and they were probably happy living there. But with you, it's the same way. It's like, you know what? If I've got this guy that hits me up out here on the range and he goes, hey, are you doing coaching? And I'm looking at him and he's told me that he watches my videos, but yet he's only doing 50% of what I've said.

But then I've got someone like you to where, yeah, you're going to make him, there's going to be a time where I'm going to, honestly, I'm going to let, I'm going to go, hey, what are you going to shoot this for? And you're like, 93.5. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to let him. shoot low and then when we get up here i'm going to say hey where'd you hit and you're going to go low what did you shoot it for 93.5 remember when i said it was 95 and then you're like yep yep yes i do yeah yeah yeah so that's the finesse of the instructor yeah but what's so important about this is people that

ask for help if you ask for help to people that are specialists in those fields you're you you have to be a good student. Otherwise, that person that's truly good at that, they will recognize that you're a waste of time very fast, and they're going to focus their efforts somewhere else. Someone like Mark Dwight, he's not going to jack around with some Hollywood person that wants to get fit if they're not going to follow his protocol.

Because honestly, there's a huge line. My DMs are hundreds and hundreds of DMs a day of people that want lessons. And when people say, oh, it must be nice. You know, I guess you got to be, you got to be this guy to get, no, I actually work with people

that can't even afford to pay me to coach and I do it for free. Why? Because they're good students. And yeah, I've got someone like Jocko or Andy or Joe Rogan. And honestly, if Joe wasn't a good student, I wouldn't have worked with him again.

It doesn't matter what position he's in. the thing is he's a great student and he's 100% committed to being a progressive learner in any field that he's at. By the way, you also give the information away to every human being on the planet that has a freaking internet connection. Yeah. That's what you do. You didn't say anything. As a matter of fact, I heard you say five times to different groups, hey, I've got a video called this. This is what I say in it.

you're not out there on the range today saying, hey, here's something that I kept off of YouTube because I didn't want anyone to know. With a PayPal swipe thing. If you want to answer that question, it's going to be 10 bones. You know, I had,

you know, we run something called the muster, which is a leadership seminar. Yep. And it costs a lot of money to go to. It costs $2,500 to go to. And it's two days long. And,

you know, I had someone hit me up and say, you know, obviously you don't care about, you know, spreading the word to, to, everyone because you put this massive price point.

And I said, hey man, my books cost $10 each. And there's the, the muster is 16 hours long. It's two, eight hour days. I said, I've got over 500 hours of me talking about this very subject on my podcast. 500 hours. For $0. For $0. It's free.

And if you listen to that, if you listen to those 500 hours, I guarantee you'll have everything that's in the muster, all of it, and you'll have more. Now, is there some element that you're at the muster in your life? Just like, is there some element to coming here? Yes, there is. There's absolutely something to it. But if you have the open mind and you really want to learn, you can get an incredible amount for free. And that's what you're doing. It's, it's incredible when I watch your videos. And I go, huh, this is, again, to me, it's that story that I told about me thinking to myself, do I hold stuff back and immediately say, no, that's not the right thing to do. It's not the right thing to do. The right thing to do is give it away. Give everybody

what you can and don't worry about it. It'll come back. It'll, it'll come back in a better way down the line. And that's what you've done. And I think that's the right thing to do. Yeah. I do too. And what happens is when you have the muster or if I go and do a seminar somewhere, like the three of us were all in San Diego when we went to Pacific Archery. Performance Archery. Sorry, performance archery. But when you're in that environment and you hear the same thing, your motivation is at a higher level. That one's live. Yeah.

When it's live, you're, you know, it's just like. Hey, Guns and Roses's appetite for destruction was an awesome album, right? You go to a G&R concert. Yeah, yeah. It's the same songs. It's the same songs. But it's different. And there is something.

But you have to like the music and you have to want to hear the music. And then when you go there, you're like, oh, yeah, this is it. It's a different. I always talk about in jiu-jitsu. If you learn an arm lock from one instructor, they'll teach it one way and they'll teach some details. Another instructor will teach you the same arm lock, but they'll point out different details and another instructor will tell you the different, the same arm lock with even more different details. And they'll all do it a slightly different way, but one of those ways will be best for you.

Well, we all learn in different ways and we all observe things from different angles or absorb things from different angles. You've had to describe things to me in the same thing. You're trying to tell me the same thing, but you've had to tell me three different ways before I said, oh, okay, I got it. And there's been a couple times where I said, wait a second, are you trying to say this? you've said, yeah, yeah, that's a, that's a good way of describing what I'm trying to tell you. Yeah. Like, okay. And you just, I just couldn't comprehend it.

I had to put it in some stupid, like, team guy language that I could understand. So when you're talking about, oh, there's, will you get a different, when you go to the muster, you get a different angle, you get a different, you get a different, you, you learn it from a different angle. And it's interactive. It's interactive. It's interactive. All the other mediums you talked about are receive only. Yeah. Yeah.

And you have the chance. So at least rate, I'm assuming I haven't been a one, but raise. your hand and ask questions. Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. What, uh, I've seen you guys post doing jiu-jitsu at the muster. What do you guys do? Because I, I have to assume that the vast majority of people there have no experience. It turns into, well, there's, I would say one-third of people, maybe a little bit more now. There's a lot of people that listen to my podcast that do jih-jitsu. Shocker. Yeah. So a lot of people start jih-jitsu after they do the, listen to the podcast for a while. So a lot of people that are, you know, within 18 months, 12 to 18 months of they started

Jiu-Jitsu, say I've got a foundation. Some people have never done it before, but they want to get into it, and that's kind of their introduction. So what we do is the second night of the muster. We, after dinner, everyone comes down and we get, we get like five to seven thousand square feet of mats. We get a massive mat space, and we break it up into two groups. People that want to train and choke each other, go over here, and then usually myself and Dean will do, like, an introduction to jih Tijuana, or Echo and I will do an introduction to jih Tijuana, and Dean will teach, like, an advanced kind of seminar to people that want to learn a little bit more. And you just do another great, like you can learn a lot from watching a YouTube video about

Jiu-Brike people's throats. I told you that you will not die or get throat cancer from training with me. That was a rare occasion. You can learn a lot from YouTube videos from Jiu-Jitsu. Can't let pressure. You could watch a YouTube video a thousand times. But if you didn't do it ever, you would not be able to execute on arm-walk on someone from just watching.

You could learn a lot about it, but once you learned a lot about it, you'd still have to get on the mat and do it a bunch. And I'm not going to try and quantify a number, but you'd have to do it a bunch on a person. I mean, you could watch. Imagine if you watched just if you didn't, let's say you were going to start me on archery and you didn't send me a bow. Or you didn't give me a bow.

You just said, okay, here, watch these videos. I would be further down the line if I watched how many hours of content do you have? Oh, God. Jesus. Let's call it. Thousands probably. Let's call it 200 hours. Let's say you sent me.

No, but let's say you sent me your primary 200. You said, hey, here's, what's the, you got the 101, you got the 102, and then you got the school and knock, 12. And those are pretty short. Yeah. So even if you gave me, let's say twice that, and you gave me 20 hours of content, and I came to the range and now you gave me a bow, I would certainly do better than if I didn't get that preparatory acclamation to the information I was about to receive.

Yeah. However, if you gave that to me, and I watched those 20 hours, but you spent two hours with Andy live pulling the trigger or pulling back and we're shooting arrows, who's going to do better? It's going to be Andy all day long. So what would be the best? The best would be a combination. I get the preparatory of those videos.

And now when I go for two hours, I'm going to absorb more because I know more. You're like, yeah, I've seen this part. Okay, now. or an understanding of the vernacular of the parts of the movements. Yeah. I think it's... I got to ask you a question. So you keep talking about a good student. If someone's trying to be a good student,

what are the qualities that you want to see for someone that you perceive as a good student that you would want to work with them and you would know that they would be able to improve quickly because of their attitude and their mentality? Like a non-ask hole? Yep. an open ear, an application. Two things. If you came in and you said,

I'm going to listen and I'm going to apply. I don't, once again, I like simplifying tactics. Listen and apply. What, when you get someone that you tell them, hey man, you got to pack your shoulder.

And then you tell them the next time, Yeah, you got to pack your shoulder. And then you show it to them. And then you push down on your shoulder. And then you touch their muscle where you want them. And they're not getting it. What, like, what point do you... Three, three year out.

Three year out. For me, just because, I mean, time's precious to me. You know, I have people that I think will do good for the world that I live in, which is archery. I think there's people that are very, very good for it. And I think there's a lot. a long line and there's a long line of people that you know i i've been told things multiple times you know i've made i've made the same mistake many times with things that i do that upsets my wife

that i really don't even know i do it and i'm like can you tell me again you know i'm sorry can you tell me again so i understand that sometimes you're trying to process a lot and you maybe can't take it all in but there comes a point where it's like repeatable repeatable repeatable and then in the end after three times I realized this person really doesn't want it and my time is more precious somewhere else for someone that really does the last time I was talking with Joe I forget what you were talking about he I think he asked me about something I took out of the teams and I actually think the most valuable thing that I took out of 17 years is the ability to learn and so it

I was thinking about it afterwards what that means. And I think the most important step is getting out of your own way. So removing your own personal bias, which is, well, I'm going to do what you said, but I'm going to add. Yeah, yeah. You go. Because I think back to, I mean, shooting instructing, or receiving shooting instruction. They would bring out, hey, this is currently the fastest pistol shooter on the face of the planet. And I would say, how do you hold the gun?

Okay. And I would hold a gun exactly like that. How do you index your holster, get both your hands together, and present a target while acquiring your sites, and get around on target as fast as you may possible? And never once was I trying to add anything to that. It was the ability to just remove that bias and just do exactly what I was told to do until I was shown a technique that had definitive improvement. Yeah, you call it bias. I definitely call that ego. And I guess it's not ego in the classic sense of the word.

But if you think about what's driving you to say, hey, you know what, you might be the fastest draw and pistol shot on the face of the planet. But you know what? You know what? It's like, I just have one of these. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we just can, your ego can get in the way of, of so much in the world. And I think you're 100% right in the fact that learning, if you want to learn, step number one of any learning process is take your ego and put it in the back.

bottom corner of your brain and open your ears and listen to what the instructor's trying to tell. Do you agree with that then? What I said? The two things? Listen to an application? Listen and apply. Yes. Well, and well, the listen part. What would you add to that? The listen part is to me is, to me is to me is to me, is putting your ego completely in check. Yeah. Okay. If I don't put my ego in check, I'm not listening to you. Yeah. If that's, that's me today, when you say 95 and I go 93 and a half. That's me, that's what I'm doing. Oh, you're filtering. That's my, that's my ego saying, you know what? Dudley's pretty good. Right? That's just idiotic.

You know, it's idiotic for me to think that. But what is, that's like every other time. Like, as soon as I made that mistake, I'm like, oh, you're an idiot. I'm thinking myself, I'm a total idiot. Why would I be thinking that? Because I was trying to figure out my range finder, right? And I was like, okay, I've, all day yesterday, you told me 93. It was 93.

You told me 62. It was 62. And today, I was like, you told me 95. I was like, well, my range finder is saying 93.5. You know what? I'm going with it. I'm going with it. And I was off the other day. So there's a, there's a discrepancy there. So maybe it was me having to learn, but at the bottom, what it is, is it's your ego.

And you got to keep your ego and check. So what does that mean? You have to listen to what somebody's trying to tell you. The other thing is, especially with a good, like, instructor-student relationship, there's not one doubt in my mind that what you're telling me is because, you want me to do it right. And this is a problem that you have with your kids, right? When you're raising kids, when you're raising kids, you know exactly what your damn kid should do to have a better life, right? I mean, you know it. You know, you're like, listen, kid, if I knew what I knew, if I knew what I knew what I know

when I was your age, I would own the whole freaking world. So I'm just going to tell it to you. What you need to do is this, and you need to do this and you need to do this. And you impose that upon them. You try and force it down their throats, and there's going to be some rejection there. So that's a real problem that we have raising kids. And people ask me, like, what's the difference in leadership with kids,

your kids versus leadership with other humans? And for me, it's a very simple answer. There is no difference in the way that you want to lead your children. So if I got a platoon of seals, and I've got a mission that I want to do, I'm going to explain why we're doing it so they understand. And if you've got kids, when you tell them to do something, you want to explain why it's important. You just don't say, shut up and do your homework.

You say, hey, listen, you need to do your homework. Here's the benefit it's going to give you. Here's what's going to get you in the long run. Here's what's going to put you in the future. It's going to make you smarter. By the way, the best weapon that you have as a human being is being able to think and think faster than other human beings and be able to see things that they don't see from a mental perspective. So what I'm trying to get you to do is build that brainpower.

So you're actually you can contend better with the entire world. You're in competition with the whole world. other human being is trying to take what you've got. And the only, the best weapon you've got against them is your mind. So I want you to develop that. You explain that to a kid. They're like, okay, I think I'll do my homework. Dad, back off.

Right? Here's the problem. So you want to explain why. So the leadership is the same. But here's where we get into the problem with raising kids. The problem with, if I have an employee, an employee doesn't do what I want them to do, I might get a little bit emotional and mad about it. Maybe my ego gets offended because, you know, Andy didn't do what I told him to do exact.

So now I'm mad at you. but like the level of emotion is pretty limited right and maybe andy just totally screws up and now i have to fire andy and he's not going to get paid anymore and i'm kind of bummed out because and he seemed like a nice guy now i got to fire him and that's that sucks and i might get a little emotional a bit about about it but he's going to find another job and that's that however if you're my kid and i say andy you know you're not going in the right direction i it's the most important thing to me is that you as my son does well. Like, that's what I want.

I want more than anything in the world. I want you to do well. And I know the path that you need to take to do it. And so parents get emotional, and they try and they try and impose that on their kids. And what it does is just like barking orders at a subordinate. It's emotional. And the subordinate looks at you and goes, you're just emotional. This doesn't have the same impact.

It's not logically. You're not explaining to me why. And so the problem that we have with our kids, we get too emotional. you have to be, you have to be extra cautious about getting too emotional when you're dealing with your own kids. And by the way, this is the same with your spouse or whatever. It's all, you have to, you have to keep your emotions in check even more. I'm not saying you have to be void of emotions, but you have to keep them in check because there's a strong tendency for them to come out. Why? Because you care about your family and you want them to do well. And when

you see them veering off the path, you want to smack them back onto that path. One of the things that you talked about earlier that I think was, it was, it really hit home with me as a, for you as a leader. I mean, I know you're a leader, but you talked, you two were talking about one of the training things that you did. And you were talking specifically about that, you know, I don't know if it was, which team it was, but you were talking about a team that was trying to motivate the 50 to beat the five. Yeah. Zog. Yeah. So someone said, is there something you want to add?

So you added it. Which at that moment, I was like, oh, man, I'd be freaking pumped. And then you said, but then. So that's a positive attribute to a leader because a leader needs to motivate every team within their company, not just one. Tell that story. there was a task unit that had been going through training and this was in the SEAL teams and I was running the SEAL training

and the task unit didn't perform the way it was supposed to perform during the land warfare block of training they ended up failing the FTX phase which the FTXs are like simulated operations they failed it they didn't do well so they got what's called reloaded they went back to San Diego

they had a little bit of downtime and then they had to come back out to our land warfare training facility and go through it. And actually Andy was the training officer at the seal team at the time. And the senior enlisted guy said, hey, Andy, can you come out and, like, give us some help? Because Andy, Andy is a very good tactical leader. And they needed some help with their leadership. And so there was a great move. Hey, let's get one of these guys that has a lot of tactical knowledge and is a good tactical leader.

Get him out here to help the whole troop. And so I, you know, I was out there, of course, because I'm running the train. training and the troop was out doing the rehearsal for the first field training exercise and they got done with the rehearsal and I'm watching them and and then you know they kind of huddle up to get the final word before they go on the op and and the senior enlist advisor kind of you know gives out some some guidance actually the officer did first and and it's important to understand that so what's happening during this this training these training box are there's seals that are going through the training, which is this task unit,

which is going through this training that had failed, and now they're going back, and they've got Andy with them. And then there's my seals at the training detachment, which the training cadre. And these guys are essentially role players that dress up like bad guys and go out in the field and fight against the seals that are going through the training. So there's the guys that are going through the training, and there's guys that are work for me that are going to fight against those guys.

They're going to pretend to be bad guys. So I'm out there talking to the good guys, right? And I watch the rehearsal. They get done with rehearsal. The officer puts out some word, you know, hey, guys, we need to stay on point tonight. And then the senior enlisted guy who's a great guy, he says, hey, list, we need to lock it on. We need to crush this target. We need to be aggressive.

We need to stick together. We need to cover and move for each other. He puts out some good word. And then he looks at me, which is kind of surprising because I'm not part of the task unit. And he said, hey, you know, hey, sir, do you have anything to say to these guys? and I said, yeah, I got something to say. I'll tell you this. There are 40 of you motherfuckers with machine guns.

And you're going to be fighting against four or five of my cadre. And if every time you get contacted by the enemy out there, you pin them down with fire, you maneuver on them, you hunt them down, and you murder them, you will dominate this target, and you will fucking win tonight. And these guys were like amped, right? They're pumped.

And they walk off in the senior list advisor, he kind of hangs back and he's like, bro, that was legit, man. You got the boys fired up for that. And then I look at him and I say, waiting until you hear what I'm going to go and tell my guys to do. I love that. Because I would go back and tell my training cadre, I'd be like, all right, listen, these guys already failed once.

And now they're out here thinking that they're going to kick you. your ass. And if you don't bring the thunder, and I would give rewards to my guys if they could, if they could get inside of a perimeter, inside of a friendly perimeter, and so basically it's night,

everyone's on nods, and one of my training contrary would sneak into a small perimeter of 40 seals inside the perimeter, inside the perimeter, which should be impossible. And then they start shooting people from inside the perimeter. It'd be total chaos. Imagine a just

shit platter. That's what happens if somebody gets inside of a perimeter and just hoses you from the inside. Yeah, because then if you picture in a perimeter, everyone is 360 degrees security. Everyone's facing outboard, right? Yeah. When someone gets in that perimeter and start shooting, now you've got 360 degrees pointing inside. So they're all shooting at each other. It's a total bloodbath. Scariest environment imaginable. Yeah. So I'd give 48-hour liberty if you could get inside perimeter. I'd give 72-hour liberty if you could get me a body. I wanted you to snatch a prisoner and bring a living seal back to me. Like I had all kinds of crazy things.

And my guys would go out there and bring it. And the thing is, it's important because there would be four or five of these guys. But here's the deal. Just like insurgents, they know the terrain. They know the tactics. They don't care about the tactics. They don't care. You know, in the SEAL teams, we stick together.

Like, we don't, we'll keep, we'll try and keep, at least me and Andy are going to stick together. Like, as much as we possibly can, we're going to stay with the shooting partner. Even better, we're going to stay with a fire team of four people, right? That's great. It gives us a great advantage. But there are certain times where it's a little bit of a disadvantage because you can't move. The Mujahideen fighters, they don't care about that.

They'll go off solo and just run into a building with a grenade and an AK-47. They'll kill two or three people. Here's the other thing. The enemy doesn't care about human life at all. They do not care about human life. They don't care if... To include some of their compadres. They don't care about them, though.

They definitely don't care about each other. They don't care if they have a blue-long... They don't care if they... kill. They don't care if one of them die. It doesn't matter. They're getting marty. Whereas for us, I mean, clearly, every single one of our guys, if we lose a guy, it's a fucking travesty. And so that's what you're up against. You can go out. You kill five of those guys. That's great. We come back high five. We go out and one of our guys gets killed and it's a heart heartbreaking, catastrophic, catastrophic, horrible, you know, horrible thing. And that's the same for any,

for any American service member, like every American service member, when you compare the value that we put on human life, compared to the value that some random Mujahideen fighter puts on human life, they don't care. They don't care about women. They don't care about their compadres. They don't care. It doesn't matter to them. And so, since they have no value on human life, it doesn't matter, you know, it doesn't

matter if they lose someone or not. It just doesn't matter to them. Whereas for us, man, we love our comrades. of our brothers. We know we love the American way. What's the American way? The American way is that we want to, you know, have a family and build a life and be comfortable and life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That's what we want. And we want it not just for ourselves. More importantly, we want it for our friends. So when they take it away from one of your friends, it's a travesty. And so that's what you're up against. You're up against a situation where

they have nothing to lose. We have everything. to lose. Yeah. And it's, it's a hard game to play. Yeah. The heart of that training cadre fights against the guys who are probably their friends, the more prepared that they are.

Yeah, yeah. I think I told, I'll... Well, yeah, you know deep down. Yeah. That's still all your brotherhood, and you know it's preparation. His rewards, though, motivated his people. I think I told this story on the first podcast, the three of us did together.

We were out on SCI, and we were doing Mount, military operations and urban terrain unless they've changed the names again. and his training cadre is insane. They'll do a fullback dive at your ass. And we're shooting simulation rounds at each other, which is wax bullets. That don't feel awesome. Is that when you took some to the mouth?

Yeah, to the lip. We're on a second story, and we're clearing through, and I remember we're up, there's this open, like, concrete over it. It's like a large deck area, and there was a door. And I had just got, no, yeah, this guy comes running up the stairs. and everybody's just papering in him. He just full on front kicks this door open and just brings his gun up and zips me right in the fucking lip.

So we're done, like, the training evolution ends. And I'm just like, I'm going to find an ice machine. I'm just holding a bag of ice on my lip. And I run to joccoo. He's like, let me see it. I move it. And it's just like full on elephant man. He just does exactly that.

And after we're done debriefing, it somehow comes up. He's like, I got to go. He's like, I got to go. write that guy a nam the navy achievement medal for full back that was awesome and this is a great ego thing the guys that would come through that like like guys like Andy guys like the senior enlisted guy from that task unit that had failed and but he was just he was like listen we this is the key point he would say like we failed because we screwed up we I didn't do a good job as leader my platoons didn't perform there where they were supposed to perform

Whereas the other end of the spectrum was guys would come through training. When they would fail a training mission, you know what they'd say? The training mission was, the training mission sucked. Yeah. The training cadre didn't die when I shot them. The, we were hearing mortars, but we didn't know where they were going. We were getting shot at and we didn't know where it was coming from. So how can we possibly defend against that?

And meanwhile. Or we didn't have enough time to plan. Yeah. Or they flatten the chain of command because that's why I was out at SCI. I was there to report back on a leader that we eventually had problems with. Yeah, yeah. And I won't say his name, but perhaps you read a counseling statement that was associated with this individual. That's why I was out there was to report back because months after that, it came to fruition.

Yeah. You know what's funny about you is you'd go out to like allegedly report back, but you just so just jump. I'd just get in the train. I just was E5 just murdering people It was fun You know The cool thing was though

You had a ton of experience I mean at that point what You'd been shot wounded Yeah Recovered comeback And here you are going through My training We're running around

Shooting each other with paintball And you could easily Be like this is bullshit Dismissive You know And you were Locked on And you know

That was the difference When I would see guys Come through training And I'd see whole task units because if you, if, because you were a senior guy with experience, if you had an attitude of like, this is bullshit, boom, you got a whole task unit that would have that attitude. And I saw it over and over again. If you get the, the key leader that people respect that goes, hey, you know what we need to do? We need to lock it on. You know what we need to do? We need to do, hey, look, this training is hard. It should be hard. The minute you have a guy like that, you see the whole task unit,

that would be their attitude. I just got to hook grenades again and start clearing rooms. I'm climbing on roofs. I was jumping down, throw all grenades and windows. I was like, let's party. Yeah, so fun. That sounds so fun.

So fun. That's because it is. Yeah. And that's what's nice about this whole situation is to be out patrolling, looking at your partner for signals, looking at where we're moving to,

not talking. Like, there's, I loved being in a sealed platoon out in the field because you don't talk. Like in the, in the woodland, in a rural,

environment, you don't talk. You're just walking around. You're not talking. You're just, it's all hand signals. Sometimes I feel awkward because I'm not communicating very much, but when Andy and I hunted for the first time, I felt at ease because even though

that's what I felt natural doing, we communicated when we needed to. Yeah, yeah. And, uh, I was just falling a dude through the woods. Yeah. Well, how, how similar was it? I mean, There are more similarities than differences, for sure.

I mean, what you're holding in your hands is a slightly different weapon system. It's kind of nice that the elk don't have. Yeah, I mean, but the concept of covering concealment and terrain management and route selection and wind and lighting and shadows, I'm like, oh, yeah, Roger that. It's not life or death on our end of things? One of the first animals we encountered was a large moose with a calf, and you just said, don't move. because I didn't realize how vicious those things are. Yeah.

Yeah, you take a full. So it could have become life or death. Yeah. Yeah. We went almost two hours. I thought we were going to do this for about an hour. No. We got to end it here because this is just the teaser for the next two months anyway.

Two months from now. Yeah, I think the grand finale, like, oh, God. The grand finale will be us three and Rogan for the final podcast. ever. That's it. No more podcast after that. Boom. And I think everybody should have to bring their elk head and place it on the table and sit

behind. I just want Jocko to have one, honestly. It's actually all I can care about. I'm totally good, not getting anything. I just 100%. 50% of me wants to be over your shoulder pushing on your limb a little bit, though, just to make your sight moving around. I had questions.

I was like, I don't know. I feel like when the. time really comes. I kind of felt like he might unravel. Remember I told you that? Oh, me? No, I said he might, maybe the situation will get the best of him because it, yeah, it's similar to what you guys have done, but it's also different, right?

Yeah. Because I've seen you kind of been like, you know, you get a little bit nervous. Oh, how can you nod? Yeah. But I don't know. He was pretty clutch this weekend, man. Yeah? Like, now I'm thinking.

Hey man It's all fun in games Until it's got four legs I feel like we're gonna punch this thing Like we're gonna punch this sucker out Like we're gonna punch this tag And uh Stay tuned

It'll be life changing Stay tuned to find out why not we did I personally think it'll be life changing Because I think after that You know He loves this element And this isn't even This is like

This is like when you start football practice and all you've got on is a helmet and shoulder pads. It's the first three days of practice. This is the first 13 years of when I was in the SEAL teams and I didn't lock. I locked and load my weapon like three times for real. Yeah. And it took 13 years before I pointed my weapon at a bad guy and pulled the trigger. That's 13 years of me shooting at 3D targets. Or whatever paper targets and and pop up targets and whatever. I think once. the real thing happens, it's just, man. And going back to what we said, that's why from a teacher's point of view, my time is

my time is precious, your time is, you know, it's like our most valuable commodity, right? That's a great saying. And, you know, if you really get an opportunity to be with someone that's great, and like for me being around Evan Hafer, being around Tom Davin, it's like, I don't want to talk. I just want to listen. Like just like throw a nugget just to get them on topic and then just sit back and absorb from these guys that are masters at what they do.

And if you really listen, it'll change your life. And if you don't, it won't. Like there's no way around it. Well, as we were talking earlier, you know, you said listen. I said, you said listen. It applied. You said, you said, listen, apply. You said, get out of your own way.

Get out of your own way. And I said, keep your ego in check. And all those things are basically the same, the same concept. Yeah. So let's keep the egos in check. I know I will do my best. I can't wait to see your face when there's just, in real life, ripping bugles. Because I have a feeling you will be, your smiling muscles will be.

It's only at that time where we'll really know how many teeth, Jocko, has. Looking forward to it. Thanks, fellas. That's it for this week. Thank you again to War Dragons for sponsoring this episode of Cleared Hot. You can download War Dragons at podcast.waradrogens.com forward slash cleared hot on your phone or tablet. Remember, for the month of July, which is coming to a close, War Dragons is partnering with Stackup, an organization dedicated to bringing military personnel, veterans, and civilian supporters together through a shared love of video gaming.

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