Cleared Hot - Powered By BRCC - Clearing the Path - Mind, Body & Soul Fitness with Bill & Karianne Anthes of Between The Ears

Episode Date: September 4, 2023

Bill Anthes is a Special Forces veteran who with his wife Karianne, redefined the intersection of physical and mental health. Together they founded 'Between The Ears' – a groundbreaking approach that leverages physical fitness as a cornerstone for emotional and mental well-being. From running a state-of-the-art facility in New Jersey to remotely coaching clients globally, they're changing lives one workout at a time. Tune in as we explore the synergies between strength of body and strength of mind, and how it's never too late to reinvent oneself for a purpose-driven life. https://www.btwntheears.com/ Sign up for the new G14 newsletter here: https://www.clearedhotpodcast.com/exclusive Check out the newest Cleared Hot Gear here: https://shop.clearedhotpodcast.com/  

Morning everybody. Welcome back to the show. Before I forget, this badass explosion t-shirt is live right now in the podcast store. It's actually been live for a few days. So if you can't get one, I apologize. If you can get one, that's awesome because sometimes the solution is, in fact, a J-DM missile. It's not always the right solution, but it's one of my favorites. Before we get into the guest today, let's talk about the sponsor. If you've been listening to the podcast, if you know anything about me, you know that this podcast is brought to you by, black rifle coffee. I actually have one right here in front of me right now, but you can't have this one because I had this made at the coffee shop that I'm a part owner of. But if you do love coffee, I'm going to recommend you go to black rifle coffee.com. And this is what I do. I go to their website and I'd go through their rotating banner. And what you find is all the cool shit that they want you to know that's coming up. So first off, Space Bear is coming back. It's a little bit of a different design. This was actually one of my favorite artworks for the ECS, which is Evans Coffee subscription. It was a bear in a NASA outfit. This one looks like it's a little.

bit more of a psychedelic bear. Yeah, definitely. It's got a little bit of squiggly riding. Then you have the opportunity to join any and all of the clubs that they offer, whether that's an apparel club, the ECS club, the traditional coffee membership club. They're doing bundles right now, 15% off. There's one more, God, don't be what I think it's going to be. Son of a bitch. It's this bass cat boat giveaway. For the love of God, somebody go win this thing because I just want it to sink. Somebody please win this thing and then send you. me a video of you blowing it up. I'm not going to reimburse you for the cost of that. I just really would like to see it. So that's it on the sponsorship side of the house, black rifle coffee.com.

My guest today are longtime friends. Well over a decade. I've actually known Carrie Ann longer that I've known Bill, but their husband and wife. I met Carrie Ann when we were working for CrossFit together. The number of episodes that we could record on just that alone would probably shock most, but perhaps that's a subject for another day. Bill, I met him shortly before he was entering into the military, pursued the special operations, pipeline got out, and then went back to school to become a therapist, which I actually think is very cool because it gives him insight specifically into the world, not the world, but the people that come from the world that he used to work in. And I just think it's an interesting objective lens on the world that not that many

people have. Together, they started a program called Between the Ears. And I'm not going to dig into it too much because we talk about it on the podcast. And I'll put the link down in the show notes. But we really cover the gambit on this one. And I hope you enjoy the initial few minutes of the conversation. It's a debate that rages on that needs to be solved. And it continues to perplex me. And I think most of society. So episode number, I think this is 301 with Bill and carry in, Anthus. Enjoy. I'm looking at danger close now. Are there any other rules?

There is only one other rule on this podcast. And sometimes I explain it to guess because they are uncomfortable here because of what they want to talk about. And the rule is simple. I am responsible for what I say. You guys are responsible for what you say. Fair enough. That's it. Why would it be any other way?

Like what has happened otherwise? Sometimes people will come on and they will get. excited or they'll get on a little bit of a roll and they'll let something come out that they maybe didn't mean to and they want me to take it out and I say no say fuck you good to know so the question the burning question that has been debated it's about chairs are you guys staying in a hotel we are is there a chair in the corner no is there a chair in the room no what hotel are you staying there's a chair there's a chair there's a chair that's a chair that's a chair Okay, there's a desk chair. I feel like I can't hear you. I can't hear you that well either. Michael, adjust the volumes.

I can hear Andy. How is that? Is that a higher volume for you guys? You're higher. Okay, you're higher. Okay. There's a desk chair. Okay.

It's a very minimal hotel. I don't like the example that we're going with with the hotel you're currently staying in. Think back to other hotels you've stayed in. Have you noticed that there is either generally like a sofa that is awkwardly sized or a chair in the room? Yes. It's in the corn. Don't ever sit in the chair. It's the cuck chair.

Yeah. All right. Are you guys familiar with what a cuckold is? There it is. There is the fucking cuck chair. Okay, I've never stayed in that hotel. I just learned what that term was like two weeks ago. Cuckold?

A cuckold. A cuckold. Right. Which is what? So, welcome, a cuckold. Oh. Let me tell you what it is. All right.

Some people like to watch their wife get fucked. Okay. If you're in the chair, you're not. participating. So you are in fact the cuck. Okay. Okay. So here's the question. There's three people in this scenario. There's the cuck. There's the bull. And there's the woman. Okay. Which one is the power alpha? Like who actually is the alpha in this situation? Because is the cuck so secure in who he is? He doesn't give a shit that his wife is having sex with another man? Is it the bull or then somebody else threw into the equation the other day?

Could be the woman. Yeah, could be the woman. Deep thoughts by both of you on this issue, go. I mean, of all the things that you guys probably thought we were going to open with, I knew this was top three. So let's just deal with the elephant in the room. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, it's definitely not the dude in the chair. Okay. But it could be.

Because he just might be such a big swinging dick. He just is like, I am bulletproof. I think he's delusional if he thinks he is. He might tell himself that, but he's still not having sex with this woman. He's still on the sidelines watching. So, okay, it's not the cuck. Yeah. Who is the alpha then?

The bull or the woman? I think it's the woman. Carry on. I mean, I might have to go with the woman. I think it depends, but she's the one that's got two men. I feel like if you answer the dude, there's a potential you're a cuck. Yes. I really like where this is going.

Tell me more. Please. Did you know that Bill is a therapist? No, no. We've been in session for the last five minutes. I don't know what you guys think is going on here. I think I might open my next session with this to include the photo. First off, it's an interesting discussion on power dynamics and where people think

that the power actually lie. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Have you shared with Andy, you're the naked therapist, how you would, how we would open sessions? If the current sort of business doesn't go well, all therapy clients will just start session with either like a blindfold on or their eyes closed. The first session, and I would ask them, look, I'm just going to ask you one question and just please answer it honestly. what would you do if I told you I was naked right now?

Why don't you do this already? Why can this not immediately interface with the current type of therapy that you're doing? I feel like I just have to update my practice policies waiver. And then we'll be good to go. And then we'll be good to go. Website, branding. Naked therapist on Instagram.

You're not saying that you have to be naked. No, no, no, you're just posing. What would you do? How would you feel? And they're blind for it. So it doesn't really matter. And they don't know. You know, so it's like...

How would you get them into the room? I haven't worked that far out. I'm already trying to think through the logistics of this for you. Maybe you should do as the podcast guests. And I just say, hey, you know, maybe I'm not in the room. They go into the room. Then I enter. You know, and there's a thing that says, like, hey, here's just the standard protocol.

You get in, have a sip of water. Find your... Just be comfortable. And when ready, put the blindfold on. Of course. five minutes is plenty of time for that. Yeah. Come in second.

It's kind of like when you go for a massage. You get situated, the massage therapist comes down. We can do better. You bring them in blindfolded, and then there's going to be an outfit in there that you take your clothes off and put another one on. So they hear clothes coming off. Like a rustling of clothes. You have to, I mean, because this is just psychological warfare. That's where I've already shifted.

We need to break these people that come in to work with you. I don't know why they're there, but we're going to fucking dominate. Clearly. Clearly you're not in therapy. They'll have more reasons. I could be a therapist, though. I mean, obviously with this game plan, I'm seeing a joint business venture here.

I mean, I do. You have an acumen that is of unique potential. You know there are actually people out there, though, who legitimately enjoy being a cuck? I can't wrap my head around that. First off, I don't have the emotional strength to even fathom surviving that situation and not losing my fucking mind.

why would anybody want to do that? That's a degree of pain. I don't, I can't possibly, I can't act. I can't even consider, like intellectually. I can't obviously feel it. I can't even intellectually consider that amount of pain. Yeah. All right.

What the fuck else you guys want to talk about? I'm basically done. Now I'll never look at a chair the same in the corner. You, let me tell you, you won't be able to stop yourself. Because I didn't know what the term cuck was for a long time. And now every hotel I go in, it's the only thing I can see. Wait, what is the term for the person that sits and calls out the things in rowing? Coxswain.

Coxswain. I feel like there's... Not the same. Okay. Because there's a little bit of a... A cuck swine? I mean, the same. Interesting.

Yeah. They're like just not involved, but they're just watching. But in that situation, they have many more people in the boat. So they might be like the power alpha cuck. Yeah. Right. They might enjoy that. They might actually just call shit out from the cuck chair because I don't even know the rules.

It's like, do you have to stay in the chair? Can you demand things from the chair? Like a director's chair? It's not. It could be, I don't know. That's what I'm saying. Like I'm scared to go down the rabbit hole because emotionally I can't handle it. Once I figured out what the term cuck was, I can't go into a hotel room and ever feel comfortable again.

I call everybody a cop. now. My middle son's nickname is the cuckler. He answers to it. He tells other people it's his name. He's like, I'm not a cuck. I'm somebody who cucks others. I was like, that's a better headspace, I guess. So technically he's saying he's the bull. You're welcome. He's launching into adult life here tomorrow. He turns 18. It's fine. Yeah. Forging him into a weapon. For what use, I have no idea. It'll present itself. He's got a straight-up lesbians haircut. This car probably autopilots to softball games. Like, I don't even know. Oh my God. What?

What the fuck did you think we were going to talk about? Does he drive a Subaru? No, that's the only thing missing. But if he did, he would literally be fighting the steering wheel to go to, like, rugby games and softball games. Yeah, he's got a mullet. It's like, it's, I call him the cuckler or Deb. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

He answers to both. So, you know. Yeah. All right. He's doing well. He's set up for success. He's going to find. fucking dominate people.

Because he's a cuck, and he might be the alpha. He's a cuckler. The cuckler. He has it written on his jiu-suitzsche belt, which I was like, fuck, that's actually a step too far. This was more of like a private thing, and I don't know how many people or parents know that term, but okay. Yeah.

Yeah, he went with it. What else you guys went up to? Man, fitness. Do you guys just fly here from Madison? No, no. No. We've skipped that. for a few years now.

Yeah, it's been a while since we've been at the the games, the cross-the-games. I actually was surprised how long it was since the last time. When we sat down the first time, it was just you, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But that was a few years ago.

I thought it was last year for some reason, and it was. It was. Was it? Wait, it was right after, it was after your retreat? It was... Yeah, a year ago?

We have a hard time with dates. We can't remember when we're married, how long we've been married. I'll say something was like four years ago, and he's like, that was nine years ago. You can't remember when you were married? Well, we have this rock that our friend gave us with a date on it. Yeah.

And that rock is prominently displayed, so at any time we can reference the rock, we're like, okay, 2013. You guys were officially married, correct? Yeah. Twice. You also have a marriage certificate. Yeah.

Well, yeah, but that's like up in a box somewhere. That would require looking for it. Usually someone texts us and says, happy anniversary, and then we know it's- You're joking. No. No. Well, we got married twice.

We got married once in the courthouse. Then we had like a party a year later, two years later? I don't remember. So it's very confusing. Yeah. So you get married once for clarity. Okay. Well.

Right. Traditionally, yes. Yeah. You're not getting two marriage certificates. Well, then the first one is the technical. But the first one wasn't... This year would be 10 years. No, the first one was the actual marriage.

Right. That wasn't the party one. It was the courthouse marriage all little... girls dreams are made of. Yeah, very E5 right before deployment, maybe needs some B.H. If you know what I'm talking about. You know, like, hey, if I go, maybe it would be nice if somebody told you. Yeah, that whole bit.

Yeah, it was very romantic. Yeah. So that would be 10 years. Judge Judy married us. It was like, you know, in and out in like five minutes. I get married at a courthouse. First time I was married. It was shockingly quick.

Mm-hmm. Probably 15 minutes from when we started walking out there to what we were already done. Yeah. I don't, I think we have one photo. How do you guys stay together this long when you clearly don't care about each other? That's the key. If you care. It's like when you have a shitty-handed poker and you're like bet too much and bet and it's like you're pot committed.

Might as well go on. I wouldn't professionally play poker if I were you with that mentality. I just happened to watch rounders literally last night with Matt Damon. So I'm basically an expert at Texas Holden. But if you guys don't care about your wedding anniversary, what is it between? the both of you that you actually, like, what do you guys celebrate? Well, I think that's the thing, though. It's not, we really have a great relationship, and every day is generally one that we're, yeah,

happy to be married to each other. So we don't need. We don't need a trust tree. You don't have to fucking lie to my face. All right. Tell me the truth. We don't need one day to, like, celebrate some arbitrary day that we got married. We've had, I feel like we've had a lot of,

a lot of situations and growth and shit happen that like I don't know we've we've celebrated we celebrate a lot without needing like one day very intricate excuse Bill what are your thoughts on why you guys don't care for each other I don't know I think uh yeah I don't know it is funny I think we've gone through a lot that just like anybody who goes through like difficulties that shows you how meaningless a lot of the stuff that people really care about is. Oh, do you mean like all of it? Maybe. I mean, maybe like one inch short of nihilism, you know?

There's still some hope there. But, yeah, I just don't think we really, I think we've just had lives that have shown us that, you know, difficulty and hardship and, you know, the full range of experiences is a, it's an illuminating experience and the hallmark stuff. I mean, we still obviously very much dedicate our lives to one another and stuff, but the anniversaries and the external shows of it just, I don't know, that's just not our jam. Why do you think that so much emphasis, I mean, obviously I'm joking about the anniversaries

and stuff like that, but I'm kind of joking for a reason and it's because so much emphasis is placed on it by so many people. Why, I wonder why that is. You know, the traditional nuclear family and then you dig deep and you find out, like, Grandma and Grandpa had different bedrooms or like two twin beds in the same room, like slightly awkward. But okay, why can't we emphasize as a society what you guys are talking about?

Like it doesn't, you don't have to, like this traditional mold, I personally hate it. And I think in almost every, almost every time somebody says, hey, you should do it like this. I have to restrain myself. Neither you'll be shocked from this by saying, go fuck yourself. Most of the time, actually that's a lie. Some very infrequently, I'm able to not say that. So, but when you say like mold, like what, what would you say would classify that other than like celebrating anniversary? Asking a 12 year old, what do you want to be when you grow up?

Oh, you're in high school? Why haven't you had your entire life figured out in front of you? And why aren't you pursuing it? Like that type of pressure, like all three of my kids were in birthday season. My middle son turns 18 tomorrow. My daughter just turned 15 and my oldest turns 20 in October. I have always asked them what they're. interested in never said to them well what is it that you're going to do for living right

because I have fucking bounced around I went from the military to work in for CrossFit I'm like oh go test gravity professionally I'll go fly airplanes professionally people are asking me to speak like whatever it is a coffee shop or podcast like I and I have enjoyed that journey not all aspects of that journey because it's peaks and valleys for sure but it has been rewarding and enriching to me more than I think I would have felt if I was 17 and said I want to be be a doctor or I want to be a fill in the blank. That is an example of a traditional mold.

Get married, have two kids, stay together forever. Your marriage isn't working. Stay in it for the kids. Which that one I cannot stop myself from saying, go fuck yourself. Because that's some of the worst advice I've ever heard people give. Yeah. Why can't we celebrate the other stuff and push the other stuff too? Because people look at you like you have a dick grown out of your forehead.

To use an analogy that we all understand. Very well. Because we're deep in the cut culture. And maybe that's what he wears on their head. in the chair. I'm just saying. Yeah, we have, our son turned 18

and is going... Just come along for the ride, all right? I'm coming along. I'm coming along. The dick growing out of the forehead is a frequently used expression in our house, so very familiar. But now, new context.

Yeah. Yeah, I don't know what that's about because most of the people I know that have... That I shouldn't generalize. A lot of people I know who set up their kids for that kind of... structure or expectation or even present like they have these going away for weekends

with their spouse or celebrating these anniversaries or buying them some crazy gift because that means something they're generally actually not as fulfilled or happy so I'm wondering like why are we setting up if you're not happy why are you for example with kids yeah setting your kid up to follow the same pattern so you're going to you know, accumulate whatever you're accumulating in this high-pressure job where you have to escape it every weekend or do whatever the hell you're doing. You don't have a relationship with your wife. And now you're going to encourage your child to follow the same thing to chase success.

But you see it all the time. But don't you think it's because there is somewhat of a focus on the wrong, like what's the success measurement is? No, no, everybody should attempt to be just like the Kardashians. That's what social media says. No, I think most, well, I don't want to use generalities either. It really turns my stomach when, and I don't know the Kardashians, for clear. I don't know. Let's assume they're the nicest people in the face of the planet.

I'm not trying to insult them by any stretch. But it turns my stomach that that is what young people aspire to. I just want to be famous to be famous. I just want to be rich to be rich. And maybe that's an amazing life. I know some pretty wealthy people and they have some pretty interesting and complex problems, especially as the generations go on

and the kids are born into that, just opulence and wealth. Yeah. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of focus on the wrong thing. And I don't know why that is. I don't know, we're probably all about the same. You guys all in your 40s? I'm going to ask you, Bill.

We're not allowed to ask for him. Bill is not in his 40s. Not yet. You're not in 40s. How old are you? I just turned 38. Wait, 38? I was born in 1985. Phil doesn't also know how old he is when you ask.

He just says, I was born in 1985. You do the math. Okay. I'm in my 40s. I'm in my 40s. Go the other direction with you guys. What do you guys care about? Because you do seem to be the fucking dude in the big Lobowski

floating in the pool with the Jack to Engels bottle. He's a nihilist. That sounds exhausting. Oh, man. Yeah. I mean, what's funny about it is, like, we actually really both do care about experiences and, like, intangible things and stuff that you can't see, but you can definitely, like, you might not be able to measure it or produce it, but you can feel it, and it's very real. What do we got? I feel like I just gave you a layup right here. You do not want to know what just came out of my mouth almost. Even Michael would have fallen out of his chair what I was about to say. But you can't see happiness.

And I was just like, yeah, almost, yeah. Go ahead and not say that. Yeah, but I mean that experience of this is like, and I think one of the things that we both try to do is to have purposeful experiences that are meaningful that cannot be measured. And they can't be captured either. And they can't be, you know, displayed outwardly and all of that. And I think for at least our culture, that's very much the case. Especially like, you know, we both have obviously like a fitness or performance sort of background in different ways. But it's always like, well, what did you produce?

What did you, what's the scoreboard or what's the metric? Yeah, what's the metric? What's the stack like? You know, all of that stuff. And I mean, that tells a story, but that story is always incomplete. And I think the, you know, the shared experience thing is. but it does make it challenging because people want to be able to say like what is it like what's the thing or where's the widget have you ever considered not answering them well sometimes there isn't an answer because the attempting to answer it

it's like not understood so it's like okay well one of my favorite things is ignoring stupid questions yeah so when people will ask things like that i'm sorry i didn't hear you what i feel like there should be like an Andy stump boot camp. There is Michael's in it right now. He's in his second year. Is there like an application or maybe that would be helpful? How's it going for you, Michael? That's going good. I just find out why you just don't talk to me anymore.

You ask a galactic amount of stupid fucking questions. And I will literally just, most of the time I can hold a good poker face and just pretend he's not there. He's doing well. He's getting ready to go and do his junior year. He's doing really well. When I met him, he was on a track to just getting fucking pegged

by some dude on some random mattress somewhere. That's where Michael is headed. Now he's going to be the guy doing the pegging. Same situation. It's a progress. But he's going to be the alpha. Leave no doubt about it. Oh, yeah. He'll be a power top.

I do have a call sign patch for him that is power bottom actual, but we're working him into a power top. It's about control. Whose truck is that outside the coffee shop? My business partners. Okay. Yeah, the F-150, the Bronco in the eastern quarter. courtyard is mine.

Okay. It's called a tax write-off. You should look into it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The license plate was interesting. What did it say? Well, it just says DSL number, number, number, and I was wondering, what's the significance of that? He comes from the tech industry.

Oh, all right. Which I don't know much about. I struggle with an iPhone. Michael, is DSL a term in the tech world? Maybe. Or does it just describe you with your dick sucking lips? Right. They are very full.

They are. And sometimes I would even say pouty, see you on the map with a little bit of perspiration on there. Sorry, what we're talking about? Let's change the world. Let's talk about mental health. Switching gears. Credibility has been established. Yeah, yeah, that's good.

I'm just saying I pay attention. He's trying. Is there, how many years is the internship or the program here? Even I don't know. I don't know either. I just feel like we're going to know when he's ready. When he's ready, he's ready. Because he's not right now.

Yeah. But we're going to know. And I don't know. what it's going to look like. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. Improvement has been had, though.

I'm telling you, he's gained like 30 pounds. He's a Purple Belt and Jiu-Jitsu now. Those are both true, actually. Yeah. Those are metrics. Yeah. He used to just take it when I talk shit. Now he opens the first time he sees it.

He's like, what's up? Fuck face? I'm like, it's amazing. So we've sharpened the rounded edges. I don't know. Are you dating anybody, Michael? Nope. Gay.

See, like, we still have room. for improvement. Is it due to lack of trying or what's the deal? There's not a lot of other homosexuals up here. Really? I thought you guys would be a tight net little coven. Yeah, well, Michael at the coffee shop, we're kind of, you know, off and on. Oh, my God.

Yeah. Michael and Michael. Yeah. Eminem, if you will. Whoever Michael is at the coffee shop. Why are you judging me like that? You've known me for over a decade. I'm not doing anything I haven't done before. The judgment never stops.

There's no judgment. I was going to say, does she judge you when you forget wedding anniversaries, but you don't fucking care, so it's like. You've trained me not to care. You've actually, what were we talking about? Gaslighted me to not care about our wedding us versus. Yeah. Yeah, you're bought in on that.

Yeah. Good job. I do think if in 365 days, if you only celebrate your partner that one day, I don't want to put any value judgment on it. Well, don't forget about Valentine's. day so it's two that was my god oh fuck it that was my previous wedding anniversary and i hate the commercial aspect of valentine's day and it was it was compounded by having your anniversary on that fucking day yeah that was a mistake 100% some could argue the marriage was but that's a different

podcast um it sucks but if let's say you got valentine's day and your wedding anniversary If those in one two days you're thinking about your partner, what the fuck? Yeah, there's a problem. What are you doing? Right? Like, what is the actual point in that? Yeah. I don't, I just feel like generally forcing people to do something is a terrible idea.

Maybe not forcing them, but like setting the conditions such that they feel this imposition to do something. That is a recipe for a revolt. Why are you talking about the military like that? Well. Once you see. God, I thought we were talking about relations. You're just like diving into the structure and hierarchy of the military. Fuck, Bill.

Can't help myself. Did you enjoy your time in the mill? You glad you did it? I'm glad I did it. Yeah, I'm glad I did it. Was it what you thought it was going to be? I would say largely no, but I also knew enough at that time in life where I was like, I can't pot. I don't know what's going to happen.

You know, my brother was in the Air Force. So he was a 130 pilot So like I knew it wasn't likely going to be what his experience was But that was really the only thing I had to Seed an expectation Besides you know like reading forums Which are you know fantasies and tales and I feel like they're really accurate

Yeah Like historical records even Right yeah They're they should probably have some sort of field manual Based off of the forum The problem is somebody's probably going to do that now, and it's going to sell well. Right. Yeah.

Right. What did you think, because how long were you a green bray for? Greenbrae for like three years? Yeah. When in the first two years was all training. Yeah. Just the pipeline, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the 18XA program.

What are your thoughts being out of the middle? How long have you been out now? Good question. Another year. This is going to be tough. Oh, math. Eight years? Eight years?

Let's run the numbers on this. What you did? I got out at the end of 2015. Okay. What's that? Eight. Just under eight. Yeah, this November will be eight.

Okay. Looking back now, eight years separated from the military, from the special operations community. I asked this for a reason that I'll explain in a minute. Have you noticed that in the world that you come from, from an outside perspective, people view that as everybody, in that world, especially if you're in a leadership role, they must just have their shit together. And because you were a green beret, we're going to hire you and you can do any job that is asked of you. Have you, and is that a correct assumption that you have seen from the Army side? Yes.

I've seen it from the Navy side too. What are your thoughts on leadership inside of special operations? I mean, to be fair, I feel like my experience, I was not in for, a length of time that I think can really truly speak to some of the layers and some of the levels that are like, okay, I was at that level and whatnot. So from my experience, my only time was really spent in either the pipeline or on a team. Yeah. And so it was very intimate.

It was just what it was. Like it wasn't, it was fine. It was good. I had some really, like I had some incredible leaders, and I had a leader who our trip to Afghanistan got pushed to another team because he was incapable. And he got fired. Let me ask you this, though. Did the team ever fail? Good leader or bad leader?

No. And that, I think, is the critical error by people hiring blindly out of those communities, because this is something I've been noodling on for a while. the world we came from was so vetted and bought in like the guys on the team they will they will succeed in spite of a shit leader yeah so the outcome never fucking changes right so then how do you determine from an outside perspective who's a good leader versus a bad leader the dudes know right the homie's on the ground like i'm gonna kill this motherfucker if he does that again or they'll shit canning in the green beret world looks like it does in the seal community we just kick the can down the street let somebody else deal with that You get shit-canned and you go take over another team and then you stay in the military forever and ascend the rank ladder and then people wonder why. It's where you can make some real decisions. Seriously, but it's true. Yeah, yeah. But I watch people pull, they want to hire the Triton and they pull the Triton and it opens doors and provides opportunities that maybe the individual is not the best suited for.

Because the more I think about the world we came from, it's about problem solving. and we're really, really, really, really good at problem solving, and we talk about having a proactive mindset and looking for problems that need to be solved, but those are always boundary to buy tight parameters. Like, every time we went overseas, I wasn't picking the targets, right? Like we were working inside of the Battlest Space Commander's objectives, and we had Intel people when it was just like, Bing, Bing, Bing, Bing, Bing,

like, okay, we can rack and stack targets and just knock them down all day long. It's one of the biggest things I think people struggle with when they get out. You go into an environment that's no longer task-centric, and people come to you and they go, hey, you're part of this business now. We need you to figure it out. You're a leader.

And they don't know how to find the tasks to actually solve. And it sucks because I watch people, I know people who have failed. They fall flat on their face. And the entire door to that sector is closed. And they probably shouldn't have gone through it in the first place. So I'm still trying to navigate my way through it. But I just wish there was a clean way to talk to people about. So now when I publicly speak, I'll have companies, they want me to come in and talk about military leadership.

I actually opened with a word of caution. And the caution is I would not try to apply the military leadership model to the civilian world. It doesn't work. I saw it even in the coffee shop, right? Like in the world that we came from, one, I had a goddamn contract, right? I was contractually obligated to be there.

If I didn't like my boss, cool story, be it muster. You know, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter, yeah. You want to, oh, you're a piece of shit. You don't get to leave your room for the next 72 hours. I'm going to take some pay. Like, there's some serious punitive shit you can do over the coffee shop we have like 30 people working for us

some of them are there because they want to pay their bills some of them are there because they love the black rifle brand and some of them don't give a fuck at all it's just a paycheck and if you push those people in any way like we used to be pushed inside of the military they're gone yeah it has to be used with caution it's one of the I think it's one of the biggest fallacies of the modern like GWAT areas that you can just like if you are from special operations you're an amazing leader and you can accomplish anything and it use with caution

I think there's a vested interest in people within our community to continue to make the fairy tale sound really powerful. And I don't mean that in a judgmental way or whatever, but like it's like you've got sort of this thing. This, I don't know what it is, but it's this thing that nobody can really question unless you're in it. And the people that are in it, like probably aren't paying attention. the truth is they're busy they get shit to do yeah so it's it's it's it's uh we fill in the gaps of the unknown or or a lot of people fill in the gaps of the unknown with what they want that thing to be and unconsciously and I think that you know the whole I was in special forces so therefore listen to me is terrible logic and it's completely inaccurate but people eat it up it sells stuff

it gets you know access to certain it's like a key it's like a universal key that you can kind of open like almost most doors yeah and I don't know I mean I've had a like that's why it's like I was in I was in the army for five years if you think that makes me a reigning expert on on so many things then like you're an idiot I was in for 17 years so I'm not an expert on yeah there were a few things that I developed a high level of currency on that have absolutely no application outside of that particular skill set right like none Like, yeah, I can shoot, move and communicate really well. That's not what I do anymore.

Well, you communicate. I don't know if people would call it that. I don't have an inner filter, as both of you know, so I just say what I'm thinking. And sometimes it gets me in trouble. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a challenge. Because on the one hand, though, like there's that. And then on the other hand, there's also the thing of like, well, when people go in at 18, 19, typically, whatever.

and all they have to do is really sort of show up and try hard. And all of the strategic level things are taking care of. The hierarchy works. And if they can just basically show up and perform and it's, they never had to, they never had to have this creative question. We're good at solving problems maybe, but we're not like actually asking the,

like formulating the question. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Our life was, hey, this is your dude. Go get them. Yeah. figure out a way to get to the threshold of the door and then you guys know it from there. It's the exact opposite of when you leave the military and people say to you,

hey, what are you going to do? And you have to find problems to solve. I think it's one of the issues in addition to the loss of purpose and what the people perceive as themselves and their time and uniform and the camaraderie and community. I think it's one of the bigger things that actually gets people's wheels stuck in the sand. Yeah, I mean, that was a huge. I think that's been, I've lived most of my adult life as an entrepreneur. What's your latest panour?

My latest pinner. Running our gym, which was actually one of Bill's brainchilds, but then he changed his trajectory and became my passion project. Bill became your passion project? No, the gym. I mean, Bill is a passion project. I mean, what you just said was Bill became your passion project. It's going back to the originating question. I'm like, my brain is tumbling now.

I guarantee you everything we talk about today. I'll come back to that chair. He's going to go back to that chair. Okay. Yes. Wait, are you in the chair right now? But, I mean, that requires, and I liked being that position of, like, figuring out my own asking the questions and also having to answer the questions. But that was a huge transition, I think, for Bill.

Like, just some of that natural, like, even coming down to if you don't do it, it's not going to get done. Like, there's no one that's going to say, here's the schedule. Like, you have to be responsible for yourself. You have to be responsible for yourself. you have to be creative in that. There are no tasks that are established. They're the tasks you've held yourself accountable to. And I think you've come a long way,

but I think that was a real struggle. And in the initial stages, because he came on board at the CrossFit gym we owned at the time. Good call getting rid of it, by the way. Yeah, I thought you'd celebrate that. Very pro that choice. There were definitely some adjustments. What do you mean?

Well, when you... When I came home? Yeah. And like when you talk about leadership, Bill decided to run the gym with our staff. Like he was still on a team. And you can imagine... You are describing exactly how well that went.

You bring a military leadership model to people who are not contractually obligated to be there. And you're like, where did everyone go? Who don't even... And in this case, who aren't even really there because they have to pay their bills. They're there because they have a passion for this thing. They all have a very different relationship to it.

You have to sort of tread carefully with that. And you basically didn't tread care. You like came in and kind of. But I think that makes it sound like I was like yelling and screaming and doing that. That's what I think. I don't imagine it. Yeah. But you don't, you, it was worse.

Yelling and screaming could be better. You had like a silent. Yes. Like, it was almost. The nearly quiet knife cuts the deepest. Yes. It's my favorite tool. Yes.

But you've since realized some of those pitfalls. Yeah. Without a doubt, I've been very transparent about that. The environment you came from, though, conditions, that's, I mean, again, I can't speak for the Greenberry World. I would say the number one tool in the SEAL community is negative reinforcement. And you're constantly chipping away at your buddies, but it does come from a place of love. Like, that can't be lost. Right.

But holy shit, you cannot do that to other people. Michael is an exception to that. He seems to be surviving, but again, we're only in year two. but it is forging him, but he also is contractually obligated. He's not going anywhere. So I have that. But that ruins relationships and it ruins people if you take it too far. Yeah.

It's funny because when we were on a, when we were deployed, I was my team sergeant at the time. Him and I were very, very close to do to, you know, just an amazing person. And we were having a conversation about some of the challenges with leadership on the team. And I came from a very high level athletic background with soccer and was fortunate to have some really great coaches, some really great teammates, and some really shitty coaches and some really shitty teammates, and both playing and coaching at the collegiate level. And I was like, well, listen, man, like, I don't, what are you doing in saying? And I was like, I don't think you can, you can't lead everybody the way you would want to be led. It just, that's, that dude is not you, past experience, blah, blah, blah. So, and that was like a, it was like, yeah, yeah, okay.

And that was like powerful for him at this time. So intellectually, I know that. But then when I came back, it was like, or when I got out it, it was like, okay, it just came from a small team with a big tasking where everybody's saying they care. And of course, there's always the bell curve. There's the dudes who were there because just where they were in their career. And there was a dude, you know. And yeah, it was just like, okay, we're going to take this thing. we're going to make it the best.

We're going to try to make everything much more professional, from admin to facilities to bup, up, blah, blah, and I don't really think, and some of it, you know, tell me if I'm wrong, like, I don't really think, because I never responded actually to, like, the negative reinforcement thing either. I felt like that was like, yeah, I know. Like, I'm aware of that.

It was just very intense and not pausing to go down, not down to the level. That sounds really... Yeah, that does so good. Just stepping into the other person's perspective, to the extent I can, or maybe asking them. You're talking about empathy. Yeah.

Yeah. But also at that time... Hold on. His description of how what he was doing, and what did it look like from your perspective? Yeah, I think that's accurate, but I think part of it was you also... I don't know,

right word to use but coming out I don't think there was a lot of thinking through what was going to happen coming out of the military you chose to leave, be with your family what was going to happen next I think there was sort of a like oh this will be great

we'll run the gym together and figure it out. Probably not well thought out I will say also there's not it's not like you had all these opportunities knocking at your door of which I don't know what the average person things of people coming out of the military or special forces, but that's not usually the case. Well, there was opportunities still within the community.

Well, within the community, but that would, then you might as well have stayed in the military. Yeah. So I think there was a lot of self-imposed pressure to like make something out of this one kernel that you had. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So there was like, you were imposing this pressure. Like, well, here I am.

Like, I better do something with this or make some significant improvement because if I don't, if I don't, then why am I even here? And was that really necessary? Yeah, it was kind of like shoving too much into a party full bag. The communities do a good job of, I'm not going to say that they force you to think in a certain way because it requires participation. They do a good job of allowing you to feel like either the beret or the Trident will be the single greatest accomplishment of your life. and that once you leave that community. And again, this is not something

that I've ever been directly told to anybody. But, you know, it's interesting when you tell, when you voice your, hey, I'm going to be moving on. It's interesting the shift. And some people are like, hey, that's fucking awesome. And other people are like, hey, I'm not going to talk to you anymore. Whatever. People can live the life how they want.

If you attach too much of your identity or if you allow yourself to believe that, that it's going to be the greatest accomplishment. in your life, you have a minefield ahead of you. For sure. And I think a lot of veterans, maybe it's not a beret or a triadner, whatever their thing may be. Maybe it's their Ranger Tab. Whatever it is.

Yeah. It's tough to actually get that out of your own way. It can blind you a little bit. It's like blinders. I mean, I went in at 25 and I knew, again, intellectually, this is not, this is like a three out of eight slices of a pizza pie that is like who the hell I am. I know it's not all eight, and I know it's not probably one either. It's like a significant thing.

Yeah. But that still, like, it's like we were actually talking about this coming up. It's like, and it's just not in our community, our community, but like any other sort of high stress, high performance, high stakes kind of thing. It's almost like there's a paradox of identity where you need to sort of consume that to fully immerse yourself in what's asked of you. and a lot of people have a hard time turning it off and they're rewarded positively as a result of not being able to do that

for the purposes of the organization or whatever and then but then there's this like identity illness that that starts occurring and the same identity that you've consumed is now the poison and at a certain degree

that becomes toxic to your own ability to outgrow that like you're saying like hey I'm moving on now Yeah. And, you know, we see that not obviously saying, you know, don't forget where you come from, but like it's a chapter, is it a chapter in a cohesive narrative about self? A couple chapters maybe, but it can't just be the same chapter all on all until the end, or it can't be the end of it. Easier said than done. Yeah.

Because for me, like to be empathetically, to have an empathy, empathetic leadership style with empathy would also require basically, basically, feeling things too. And that was completely turned off. I mean, for a long time, it was like... Before the military. Yeah, before the military. Certainly during and after, it was like, yeah, just not going to feel anything. And there we go.

So what's the problem? There's no problem because I can't feel anything. So I didn't have that ability to really connect with people and have that empathy that was required. And, you know, that goes for family as well. And yeah, so to say like you're going to have someone now who spent a long time in the military in our communities or whatever. Treat people maybe how they were treated or whatever or not the lack of feeling, lack of empathy. Of course, everybody's story is going to be different.

But all I can comment on is mine. There's a lot of consistent narratives. Yeah. How'd you turn it back on? well I stopped drinking alcohol Pussy I just I just reach it for those That's why I'm sitting in this chair

Yeah There we go there's the answer What were you using alcohol for To feel actually In some ways To strip away the portions of your personality That would prevent you from feeling You mean to be able to get past those barriers

And be comfortable confronting it I felt like when I drank There was a lot, first of all, from the first time I drank, I knew that this was not good for me. Do you remember the first drink you ever had? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What was it? Coors Light. Peach snobs.

Peach snobs? That's desperate time. Sophomore? It wasn't desperate times. You have what you have. Well, that's what I mean. Yeah. You could take anything you got.

I remember having that first, you know, two beers or whatever. But what happened was it took me away from where I was. and I didn't have the full appreciation for that but I was like this worked and I continued to you know it was it was not good for the first time so anyway yeah

I you know there's this thing in therapy too where you'd say like you know people when people are sick and tired of feeling sick and tired they'll show up but before that you know maybe you can see all the road signs you can see all the stuff but they have to kind of do it and yeah for me like I knew it was not it was not going well.

It was just life, this could not be a good way to live, even though outwardly, you know, there might be like, oh, what's wrong? You've, you're fed, you're life, kids, and all that. But the internal landscape was pretty, was pretty bleak. So, yeah, I really stopped, stop drinking alcohol. That was for, and for a long time, just dug into, okay, what is this thing called trauma, you know, because I had a real cynical. like fuck off with your trauma kind of attitude beforehand but really started trying to learn more about it i will say though that that's rather unusual like bill is an avid reader we have every book

you could ever want to read on like he'll read a textbook and so i think there's it's admirable to like really when you say like dig in like reading books like i mean i am interested in that stuff but like five pages in you're like all right what's the what's the gist you know um so there's a lot of like self like have you ever worked on your impatience with anybody like a professional because no never i don't need to five pages in i'm down good back yeah hey the patience piece yeah i have worked on my patience yeah yeah yeah you've done a good job you get to like seven can't you tell can't you tell well no but bill read the book right i'll just hey what the hell's this book about do I need to read. Yeah. Yeah, you would not want to go on like a journey of development or,

you know, self-improvement. It's fine. Yeah, why would you want to do that? Yeah. Perfect. Nothing to improve on. Yeah, so that was, that was years in the making. And then, you know, a big, a big event for me was doing a psychedelic retreat that was, that ripped me open that, you know, everybody has a different experience with those. Did you do Ibegain or I-A-Wasca? I did Ibegain in 5MU D-M-T. D-M-T.

Okay. Yeah. And so I think, like, I'm very grateful for sure for that experience, but it was incredibly difficult for at least a year afterwards, like, integrating. And at the time in my life that I was doing it, it was like I was in the middle of getting my masters going into new york city like weekly uncertainties with like the business and and different things and i didn't really feel like afterwards i had a clear sort of uh guidance as far as like what the heck what what what what what i what i do do do now like there's this book called like the laundry

after the ecstasy and it it does refer to that sort of come down and i don't think you can also predict and know exactly what someone's going to come up with. But, you know, for me, that that was a life-changing experience for sure. But it was also the following year, some of the most difficult. To the point where for a while, I was like, I'm not sure if I'm actually better. I think I might, there was times of like, I might be worse. Really? Yeah.

Yeah. I think it was hard because when, actually, we heard on your podcast, that was when Amber and Marcus were on. and for a long time, I think I was like an advocate of yours. Like you weren't maybe an advocate for yourself. I mean, you were working on yourself, but I reached out and was like, okay, this could be, like you need to do something more, like drastic. And I think for those situations, like it is challenging.

Like where is someone on the spectrum? And so you don't have the foresight to say like, oh, I've got time. I've got plenty of time. What's the exact, what's the best case scenario to enter into this, to come out of it? So from that regard, like, it was pretty quick that you went down and had your experience. So, and again, like, so grateful for that. But, you know, looking back in hindsight, it's like, okay, maybe there could have been some other pieces that we step back and looked at, but you just don't know at the time. Yeah.

But after that year, Yeah, going into the city for anybody, but for you in particular, for being like super sensitive, going into Manhattan. Well, I told my like integration coach who I was working with for a couple sessions after that, like going back into the city. She was like, oh, no. She's like, no, that's bad. She's like, that's like the worst place in the world. And it's not just for like, it's just that what these things do, you're so sensitive. Like, you're not choosing to be sensitive.

your brain is just like learning all this new stuff. So there is this period of sort of potential imprinting afterwards, which you just have to be aware of. And, you know, but it's like, so what do you do, not go down? Wait until the perfect time. But it did definitely. Like there was a distinct difference, like a lightness that. Yeah.

Like there was a lot of, let's use the term, like darkness or heaviness or numbness, whatever that was definitely lifted. I mean, not to say you don't have bad days or struggle, but that, like that pit is like definitely not there anymore, which is crazy. At what point in that year afterwards where you were a question, whether or not you were getting better, what turned the tide for you?

I don't, I can't say that. We were talking about it the other day. You were saying like the Hawaii trip, It was actually like... Yeah, I mean, definitely, you know, finishing school was a big, just like, okay, I'm out of this environment. And you were going to school for the purpose of becoming a therapist. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that institution is also incredibly woke.

So... NYU. Yeah. So you come back from this thing. And then so much of the conversation is very narrow. So there's not a lot of perspectives being discussed. There's not a lot of... Isn't that the opposite of what academia is supposed to be?

Non-ideological. I mean, shouldn't it be like a laboratory of ideas? Like, isn't that the point that people go for a higher education so you could like throw shit into the light and see what sticks and what doesn't? Yeah, yeah, well, it didn't help but I but I don't think that I mean, I think that's like sort of a discussion about like, you know, some of these institutions that are not. Yeah, they're they're they're they're specific and ideological and they're in what they're teaching. So how did you navigate that? Because I'm going to make an assumption that you probably didn't agree with a lot of the ideologies that were being espoused. Yeah, I just shut out. I didn't say anything. What am I going to say? You know, and it was funny because it kind of reverted back to like. okay, so I'm just going to shut off. And I'm just going to, and I'm really good at this too. And I can go back to that.

So I think that was a very difficult thing to manage after that. And then, yeah, we were, you know, we went out to Hawaii actually for this trip that was, you know, we're really grateful for. And that shined like some lightness on for sure, just like being with the family and coming back from that. But I don't think it was like an immediate thing. I will give myself a little bit of credit of like I really kept my eyes open to what was difficult. And it was like some really

agonizing mental space to be in. But just stay open to it. Keep looking at it. And this is part of the process. And so it was like a, you know, it wasn't a turn on a dime kind of thing where one kind of breakthrough moment. I think the breakthrough kind of moment,

the big catalytic moment is whatever the ceremony is or whatever the compounds people are taking. And that'll be this huge spark and this, yeah, just bang. But then after that, it's like, all right, that could go many different ways. Yeah. I worry that some people think that that particular evolution is a magic pill in and of itself.

Yeah. And I'm sure we, I mean, I know some people who, went down there or went somewhere where they offer these experiences and they've now been back quite a few times and I'm curious as to whether or not it has just become about like kind of the journey and in the journey well it could be both I guess because they're using the journeys as a crutch to not actually deal with this stuff from my understanding have never experienced it that it is supposed to illuminate while you are there I do think like seeing I can't imagine and I'm not saying this like I think because of your interest in therapy because of all the work you've done

before your love of reading like all these different things the work that you were doing coming back like I would find it hard to imagine that the average person would know like the resources for that the support for that like what to do for that integration and I think also not to but like your family your spouse your kids like we were super open with the kids like I mean they're you know, in their teenagers. It's not like any reason not to be, but like they knew of Bill's struggles. They knew what he was doing, why he was going. It was kind of funny, though, because one night we're like, oh, like, let's all sit down.

And, like, so Bill's going, Bill's going on this retreat and he's going to do some psychedelics. And they're like, and, you know, kids are like, what do they say? Serious? Or they have this, like, expression. We're like, yeah, we're serious. Like, I think they thought in some ways it was kind of like, I don't know if they thought we were being serious, but it was, but I think like that process, like your family, your support system, whoever that is, like they have to, they have to be patient, they have to be, they can't also expect that it's going to be this instant thing because I think that could be also a trap. Like, okay, like your change, like he came home.

And like I said, like it was those first three days were like incredible. You're still in this like, not honeymoon phase, but nothing has really set in yet. then to not expect that, okay, it might get a little bumpy and it's not just an immediate fix. I think if people aren't. Sure, but people want to believe it does. Oh, that's fine. They can believe whatever the fuck they want to.

You can believe that Santa Claus comes down the chimney every Christmas too. But you're going to be really disappointed if that doesn't happen. And that's where it's like, well, what the fuck? But there's a lot of people that are lying to themselves. That's nobody who's telling. You guys own gyms, right? You've owned gyms before? You ever had a fat fuck come through the door?

How long does it take to become a fat fuck? fuck long time is the answer why do people think that it's just going to peel off at like a week like we just we lie to ourselves if people would stop that shit and get rid of the instant gratification model we'd be a lot better off i don't i mean i'm not an expert yeah i'm not an expert on top of trauma but trauma on top of trauma is going to create issues for most people unless you have some amazing capacity to deal with it nobody shows up out of the box well maybe geoffrey Dahmer did or some other fucked up people. Nobody just comes into the world utterly fucked up.

It's a series of things that happens over time. Maybe we should expect that it'll be a series of things that happens over time that's kind of unwinded. But why do you think people are in such denial? Because that exists in not just this, but in many things. I mean, to your point about weight loss or about I'm going to go to the gym five days a week and go to the crossway games. Yeah.

But, you know, and that's sort of this like weird. in our experience, or I'll speak for myself, we can sit here and say that exists, that many people are in denial about whatever, whether they think that they're going to go do psychedelics and come back cured, or they're going to work out five days a week and go to the CrossFit games

or whatever that degree is. Then there's this like dual thing happening. Like we're saying there's a mental health, like people are not mentally well, but then people are like, what are you talking about? Like everything's fine. Like, do you know what I mean? There's just like weird duality.

that in what we do, sometimes it's like, okay, so there's no problem. Like everything's fine. Like, okay, then what are we? Because someone has to say. Yeah, the person telling you that, probably on like four different SSRIs, you know,

and like having a few cocktails at night to wash them down. I mean, because it's hard. It's hard to look in the mirror and tell yourself the truth. Yeah. It's, as dumb as this sounds, it's hard to do the hard thing. I don't know a better,

I don't know, a more articulate way to put that, but it's, most people, if you give them a choice, and I'm as guilty of this as anybody else, if you lay out two choices in front of me, I'm likely going to consider the easier one first. Even though I know that there is probably more growth through the challenging one, it's just, I think it's in our nature to be a little bit lazy. Yeah.

But you might inevitably eventually pick the, like, the harder one. But I think a lot of people get stuck in like a... But I think you learn to pick the harder one. I don't... Well, and I think momentum is real, too. If you go down a path of always, like, again, to use the analogy of weight, nobody got 100 pounds overweight overnight. They built momentum in bad habits.

Sure. Slowly over time. And so it can momentum for poor choices can lend you in a place where you think you can't escape it. Momentum in, hey, I'm going to make the difficult choice can lead you to places where people question how you got there. Yeah. Right. I actually think they're both probably, I don't think people who have momentum through poor choices

are really enjoying the choices. they're making. I think there's a different type of difficulty involved in that. There is a self-awareness, I think, and people realize that what they're doing isn't healthy and self-destructive, but they don't know how to stop. And that's got to be just fucking hell. And it's not like taking the hard choice is necessarily easy either. I guess it's just a different kind of grind, because if you can get that momentum going in a positive direction. Yeah. It's tough to tell people the truth. It's tough to tell yourself the truth. Most of the time when people ask questions, they know the answer.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think the honesty part is, it's a weird question. It's like a philosophical question to ask, but it's like, how do you learn to be honest? By not lying. By not lying. But you usually, at least, like, of course, only speaking from my thing. But you learn that through that negative, like, reinforcement of like you got caught,

lying. So sometimes you maybe then get better at lying. Yeah. And like that honesty part is, that end state though of getting really good at lying. That's coming for you at some point in time. You're no doubt going to pay. Oh yeah. You're no doubt going to pay. The question is how big is the check going to be? For sure. But like, so how do we, you know, I think this is one of the things that the psychedelics do without, like they do it at a level that it's you're, they're sort of providing. control over it. Yeah, you don't have control over it. They're showing you a degree of honesty at a level that you might not be able to access just like in this state, you know, and learning without the psychedelics how to be honest with yourself without it being like, you know, self-inflicted

pain and punishment and kind of all of the glorified stuff. But, and that is one of the things where, okay, well, what are the, you know, people around you that can tell you the truth? Like, can you tell yourself the truth, like this pursuit of raising awareness based on honesty, to suspend judgment, but also have it be what it is to the best you can. I think that's just something that it doesn't sell. It's not really glamorized to like the Kardashian thing. Like there's so much of the external. Well, they're selling the opposite of honesty.

Yeah, it's deception. And it's look at me. I'm better and blah, blah, blah, and all this stuff. And, you know, that's where. where, and I think now, like, we're getting to that point where when somebody is honest, just for whatever it is, you might not like it or whatever, but there's, there is a, there's a natural attraction to that of like, oh, my God, like, people can sigh a breath of relief when they're like, oh, that person said something honestly, whatever it was.

And it could be hard. It could be great. It could be whatever. But, you know, I think that we get to the point, to your point, like, you know, just sort of stop lying. It's like, yeah. Easier said than done. Yeah. Totally.

Easier said than done. I'll be honest with you, Michael. Ask me a question, but you don't want to know the answer to. You're over there surfing the fucking internet. What are you looking at over there? Be honest. Kardashians.

Are you serious? Yeah. You disgust me. Hey, Bill brought it up. I was just like, you know what? What do they look like? They look like fake plastic, Photoshop, filtered,

constantly curated human beings that young men and women want to emulate. And I can't fucking figure out why. Maybe they're great people. I don't know. But nothing that you're, that's the thing with social media. You have a choice on what you show people. Like they have a reality show.

If people don't think that that shit is edited and scripted sometimes, I don't know. So it's not a true perception of who they are, but they've arrived at this place of being a beacon. But they're fucking pointed in the wrong direction, in my opinion, which doesn't count for shit. It's the opposite of honesty. But don't you feel like everybody, don't you feel like there's also like, so, there's the Kardashians, of course, which I honestly, like, I don't, if I were to bump into them in the coffee shop, I probably wouldn't even know who they are. You would, because they'd have a film crew with them. True.

But then you look at that with everybody with their cameras and everybody with their stuff and, you know, even like lower, like the media content mill and push and social media and all of that. Like, I think we all, to an extent, have our version of a Kardashian, this ideal of a life that. is not ours. And maybe some can be honest with that and be like, oh, that's an interesting thing. But like, I just think that there is this thing called like object relations theory, which is like we basically know a chair as a chair because we sit in it in relation to a table and it's a useful thing. So when we think about like what we're consuming and everybody has a different thing with social media, but like it's it's everywhere.

And the person who's not on social media is like the complete outline. liar now. So we're consuming this thing that that acts subconsciously for us to engage in a relationship with it such that we are what we are, which is not what that is. And what that is, is this highly curated, crafted, nice lighting, like this idealized version. And so while it might not be like an MTV reality show like the Kardashians or whatever other stuff is out there, you don't need that anymore. You don't need to go to the that channel anymore. You just need to open up your phone. Oh yeah. It's in your fucking pocket at all times.

It's just mass consumption of this toxic you know, it's like empty, not even empty, it's toxic calories for the mind by just all of that and, you know, they're going to, I would imagine in schools they should teach like like how they,

well, they don't teach nutrition, obviously, why would they? But like, how to consume media, news, social media, all types of media, like responsibly. Good luck with that course coming out. Right?

Yeah. I like where your head's at. It's toxic calories for your mind. But the challenge is also there are people that, and I'm sure Andy's had this experience, obviously, with what he does. Like, there are people you have positively influenced that wouldn't have been touched without social media. But the problem is it's difficult to separate one from the other. Right. Definitely people that I know are positive influences in my life that I can connect to via social media, but I know them outside of that world.

And I appreciate what they put out because I know they're being true to themselves. But from somebody who didn't personally know them or have a relationship. You don't know. They don't have a fucking clue. And how do you tell the difference between somebody who's saying that and somebody who's saying 3% different than that, but it's pitching a supplement at the same time? You know what I mean? Or fill in the blank. It's impossible.

Right. I mean, that's the struggle with like, I mean, obviously what we do is, or, you know, some of the stuff with Bill is trying to teach people like a resource that's not psychedelic or maybe it's not, like this, this resource for people with their mental health. And it might as well be like, what's the difference? How do we expect people? I don't blame them. Like, how do they know that's different than someone else talking about mindset?

Like, it's all just in the same category. some of it's great and some of it's like, you know, we'll see stuff and you're like, oh my God, this is, this is not good. I hope people don't listen to this. I know what you're talking about, but here's the tough reality. There's nothing you can do about it. You could go onto those platforms and you could shout at the mountaintop as loud as you want to, and it probably won't make a difference. I think the only thing that you can do is focus your effort on the things that you can control, which is your business.

And the people that find it, you can focus on improvement for them. Right. But those who spend their time online have somehow with this occupation, like trying to call other people out. Yeah. I mean, you're pissing to the ocean, thinking you're going to have an impact on the tide. Yeah, I mean, that's one of the things for us. Like, recently it's, I get it, you know, we went through a phase of like, okay, there's all the marketing experts, there's all these people. There's, you got to do this. And what if they're all wrong?

Well, and some of it, my fallback was like, you know what? Like, this might be antiquated and I might be completely ignorant. But you know what? The only way that I know has ever worked to help connect with people is actually just talking to that person directly. Oh, do you mean like being honest and telling the truth like we were talking about before? Yeah. Super weird. It's like, let's just talk to that person and not throw this net out to an audience of people that, you know, you may or may not catch.

the right person or you may or may not help the right person or it's exhausting and it will literally i mean we've had some our own mental health has been influenced by the whole instagram social media like going in spirals and then you start to question what you're doing and that's i think really dangerous because if you do do something that could help people and then you're just going to like pack it up because of social media like that's crazy that's not well it's neither social or media. No. I don't know if you guys have ever looked at my Instagram stories, but that's what the

internet is for. Yeah. I do see your stories and they're very refreshing. My wife will lay in bed next to me after I've uploaded a few and she just, I'll hear her. I know when she's on my page because she'll say, what the fuck is wrong with you? She's like, honey, that person died. I'm like, I don't think so. But there's a chance.

30% chance. Sometimes higher. There was some bangers recently. My feet is perfectly curated. what I'm looking for. It's mini Dosh Hounds and people almost dying. It's taking years. We've decided that Instagram is good for dogs.

Yeah. I love dog videos, man. The dog videos are good. They're solid. I will say I'll consume some dog videos for sure. I'll watch Frenchy dog videos because my business partner has two and they're awesome. One of them actually is a nihilist. It's the best representation of a being that doesn't give a fuck about you unless you have steak.

And then the second that you give it to him, he's gone. Yeah Michael you watch those dogs For about a week right? Yeah did I tell you that Would you agree that Kool-Aid is anilist? Yeah he peed right in front of me Yep exactly

Right in front of me Didn't give a fuck So what he was just saying is Get back in your chair That is a power move Yeah And I was like Kool-Aid What the fuck are you doing

And he looked at me Ran off towards the door And there was just a Such an alphabet Puddle of piss on the ground I want to do that as a human Right Just fucking piss

right in front of somebody, but like, do you know what this means? It means you're below me. I own you. That fucking dog, though, is like the perfect example of a Nihilist. He will eat your food. He will let you scratch his butt. If he try to scratch him, he turns around because he only likes his fucking drumsticks, his legs fucking scratch, and then he leaves.

If you had to, like, have a stroke, he would just, like, walk over you or piss on you. Right. And eventually start eating you. 100%. Because you didn't feed him. Yeah. Yeah. God, social media is.

I am so thankful I didn't grow up with it it would have fucked me up Yeah Yeah How do you think it would have fucked you up? It It is a never-ending display of unrealistic expectations Yeah

And the mistake that I have made Many times in my life Is comparing myself to other people Right And it's so easy to do When it's just this That's all it is It's really, at the end of the day

It really is all that it is Yeah Let me present to you My best life only on the top of the mountain. We're not going to post anything about the trough that is in between all the mountain tops. Well, it feeds on scarcity.

Well, you know, it's the worst is when you know people who are absolutely struggling and they're posting about how perfect their life is. Yeah. That is a fucked up headspace. Yeah. Like there's some stuff, there's some damage being done there for sure. Yeah.

I mean, I, like, it's this weird thing because sometimes, you know, when you're in the darkness, sometimes, like, you just need a little, like strike a match worth of light. You could see a lot more than you were previously. Yeah. But, like, obviously you have to continue to feed that fire and stuff. And so if it is a thing for people to find some sort of inspiration or hope or motivation

or just a little bit of wiggle room, of like, oh, there's a little opening. I don't know, maybe I'll try it, you know, whatever that is for them. But like that's a needle in a haystack. That is a, you're playing the lottery. Like, that's really what it is. You're playing the lottery for it to be something positive. And then you look at this device that you can curate and live and it creates delusion back. It's crazy.

And it's, and there's a big thing within mental health now, too, where, like, people go on social media to diagnose themselves. Oh, yeah. And it's like, I'm this. On the social media or a webmd? Well, you know, I think, unfortunately, now more social media. Because webmd is like, I'm going to go to this website. And it's like just, it's just like academic, right? There's a distance between.

But you're talking about with mental health. Like there's mental health experts that people are going on. They're like, oh, I have this mental health disorder. Yeah. I have trauma. And then there's this blanket advice that could be potentially dangerous for someone. Well, yeah, and there's a human being who's, who's, you know, and it's like all marketing.

So it's like, hey, you need to understand psychology and how people feel and speak to the emotions and, you know, get that going. And these people do this. And now all of a sudden there's somebody, maybe for the first time in this person's life or that they think in their life, that's kind of connecting to them. That's looking them in the eye, even though they're looking into a lens. Yeah. They think that is that this person sees me.

And now they're giving them this thing. And it's a lot of like creative, this is like marketing 101. One of the things I hate about it, create a problem and sell the solution. Here's this problem with why you might be having bup, blah, blah, blah, blah, and the solution is you have this mental health diagnosis. And then that becomes identified with and labeled as and bought into. And then you're going to go seek out others who also have this. and you know and it's like holy fuck that is i don't know i don't know i don't have the right control i mean but but there's no i mean you can say whatever the hell you want and yeah and for the

and for the and for the thousand people that are with that maybe one one of those people finally like oh my god this does this is this is real this is true like this is what and and you know there are people who have received diagnoses in the past and it's provided a little bit of an explanation, but it's been the match lit in the darkness of now that they can go and continue to maybe get the care that they need or whatever. But it's not the end point.

For a lot of people where it stops is like, well, I have this. I'm a, you know, I'm a, I'm a, whatever, I'm a Navy SEAL, I'm a Green Beret, I'm a this and that. And then you add this label of like, oh, and then I have this thing that sort of justifies my fucked up behavior

or my unaware behavior. And that's just what it is. So accept me or you're a piece of shit. Yeah. Or something like that. And you're like, all right, well, hold on a second. Like, what are we doing? This is, where's you learn that?

Oh, this person that's account who has three million followers. So they must be. Well, the difference is, too, is that the three of us can sit down and have this conversation through the lens of brains that are developed. Unfettered access to that information. I mean, what does they say? For men, prefrontal cortex, about 28. Women probably about 25.

Phones in kids' hands between the ages of seven and on. And that's not even, you know, the sense of self that people can develop as well. I was doing a podcast yesterday for one of the upcoming Change Agents episodes, and it was about the impact of porn. Yeah. And how most young men, young boys and girls, their first introduction to porn is not like finding your dad's, old playboy where it was like a topless picture. It is like hyper aggressive violence. They're like jumping into somebody's 40-year-old curated feed of porn that has grown

over time, over time, over time. Here's the gnarly data point. At what age do you think most children are exposed to that? I don't even want to know, but probably nine, ten. What do you think, Bill? now? Yeah, I mean, I would say maybe single, single digits, like eight, nine, yeah. Seven to ten. Seven to ten.

And it's, again, they had done studies where they would have an adult set up a TikTok account and a child set up a TikTok account. The only difference being the age that you put into the device, the differences in the feed. This woman, Dawn, the CEO of the organization, was talking about how hyper-sexualized the younger account was almost instantly and how non-sexualized the older account was. So an adult could, like, I want to be on the same platform as my children

because I want to have an understanding of what they're looking at. They're being fed to completely different feeds. This is what TikTok? Or all of them? Specifically, TikTok was the example that she used. But it's just not only can social media set an unrealistic expectation,

it can completely destroy your sense of what is normal, your sense of self. Can you imagine getting exposed to like violent pornography at the age of seven to ten and thinking that that's like the normal expression of like I guess that's what mommy and daddy do? But for a lot of people previously like maybe our age, that would be very likely you can make a case for that being an early sexual trauma being exposed to that. How could that not be? Of course. You would never argue with that. But now because it's like, oh, well, it's on a, it's technically.

talk, not, you know, porn talk or whatever the hell. Like, it's not a porn-specific platform. So it's, like, accepted. Well, that type of, like, aggressive pornography, from my understanding, they find those on the sites that she referenced was, like, Porn Hub, and there was a couple other ones that I can't remember. The ease and access of their ability to reach that because they're living on their phones, it's like a click or a link away.

Yeah, right? And then there's the other aspect, God, she was talking about. the trafficking aspect in how adults are able to talk to children through these platforms and how it just it it snowballed into stuff that as parents you'd never want to think about. Did she say if you put in do you put in your sex or your gender into these beforehand? Like I'd be curious to know is it? Yes, you do. And does that have any difference? Well, I've never had a TikTok account, but I'm pretty sure on like on Instagram you have to put in your birthday.

I think they ask you. You can probably select not to. I guess I'd be curious to know, like, I would just my own, like, thing is I would think that young boys or boys in general, males in general, probably consume more pornography than females and women. I wonder if that is changing. I don't know. Because, like. Michael, what are you looking up over there? You're very intent.

What information? what information to give to TikTok to sign up. I'm not really finding anything concise. Do you have a TikTok account? Nope. God, that's such a good answer. Probably does. Can't you see him doing like viral dance videos?

I can. Yeah. It's dangerous. It's a dangerous world out there for sure when it comes to the digital environment and it's just not real. Yeah, going there to find answers. or solutions, which is what a lot of people do is not a viable.

It's possible, but good luck separating the charlatans from people who are actually out there trying to do actual good. Yeah. So what the hell you guys got going on with between the ears? I mean, we've solved, I feel like, the vast majority of problems so far. Pretty much. So let's get to your latest panorama. You go ahead. You're the CEO.

She is? Yeah, she's the CEO. God, you might be in the chair. Bill is the talent. I just help with like channeling the talents. Who is in the chair now? I have questions. Yeah, I mean, one of the things we're trying to really do to the point of this is bring experiences to people that involve the body and increase awareness and insight.

So it's not, you know, we started as wanting to actually, you know, between the start as wanting to try to share. past experiences, you know, that we've kind of gone through without the yelling and the screaming and the spraying the water in the face and like any of that stuff. But like, hey, like you're going to show up to this to the gym. You're going to do an unknown thing. You're going to challenge yourself without it being some crazy over the top. They were like overnight events where you didn't have details, but they weren't, it wasn't like replicating some kind of. Yeah. Right. It's like you meant just like go to the recruiter's office instead and go. experience the real thing.

Yeah, for sure. I'm not going to try to recreate this thing. But there are elements of getting outside your comfort zone, working together as a team, like not having all of your... Oh, the unknown. Yeah, the unknown. Like, that's a beautiful teacher, a hard one. Don't forget the unknowable. I'm holding back, Andy.

Redundant fit. You know? But like, so that's kind of how it started. But what was happening is people were having profound experiences. and they were like confronting stuff. But after one time, someone was like, hey, you know, this opened up some shit that you need to know, like, is real. And she was a very good friend of ours, thankfully,

and had the confidence and the comfort to really confide it and say, like, just you need to try carefully. So that was what led to go back to being a therapist after like a couple of years of looking into this stuff. And now it's like what we want to try to do is bring people, I don't know like mental health kind of I think still has this speaking of branding like it needs I think a little bit of a I think it needs a rebrand in that it's not like if you were to tell me hey take a mental health day and treat yourself

and bubble bath and your day off I'd be like fuck off if that's what mental health is I don't want it and I think that's very much sort of a general thing now maybe not for people likely not for people who listen to this that they're like mental health is bullshit and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but like, for the average person, how do they proactively work on some of this, like, mental health stuff without being in therapy? Or maybe without getting into pursuits and activities that might actually reinforce some shortcomings of one's mental health. So that's sort of what we've evolved this thing into be and trying to blend together

essentially like yeah what are what are some body based physical experiences and exercises that we can do to just say like hey let's just see what was it like it's rooted sort of in just being honest with yourself it's like our number one sort of rule is like just be honest and here's this very low cost like super accessible thing because like it's also as a therapist I can tell you I have to tell people no like I just can't this isn't a mill I don't have 50 people Like, I think last time we talked, I was hoping to work for the VA. And I don't know. I guess I was just sort of, I realized, like, that's not the system in which I want to work and try to do what I wanted to do because it's a broken system. And so now it's like we need every research study, you read, every academic, every legitimate, you know, sort of paper says new and novel approaches are needed. And it's like, yeah, sometimes sitting down on a couch in my office is not what people want

or even need, but very few mental health practices will ever discredit the presence and engagement of the body. So if we can have this kind of convergence of physical fitness type of events, workout style, and some mental health informed or just on, like awareness type of activities, it's just, you don't need a, you don't need to know everything. but like it's amazing the power that one moment of insight how that can change your trajectory and be that match and be that spark and maybe that's all somebody needs and yeah i mean let's do i mean it's it's a workout but i think that um so basically it's a program that's like a workout

and a mindset and the mindset thing is such a shitty word like because it just gets used so much um what would you call it then Yeah, an awareness practice. I mean, each of them has this concept that's like not so out there, but that also like pairs with the workout. And so I think some of it's like, you know, back in the original days of CrossFit, in my experience, I'll speak for myself. One of the things that attracted me to those workouts where they weren't in a gym with mirrors that were very much based on like, you know, just the body. there was like this experience people had which became that thing where it's like which i hate now like but who you are in the workout is like you know who you are in life and it says something about you

and and i think the actual like what that spoke to for me was there was something happening between like moving and there was intention there was a little bit more than just like get this time get this number, get the score. And so this is definitely more than that. But it's like setting an intention with, here's this really cool, different workout that thought was put into it. I mean, obviously it's generally for people that do,

like, you know, functional fitness. And then there's like a mindset that like pairs really, really well with it. It's like, wow, that really makes sense. So you're having this like felt workout experience. there's a there's like a concept and then there's some journaling and it's a very like approachable intentional way of getting access to this stuff that I think you know some of these concepts are actual therapeutic like like um what would you call it therapeutic yeah they're concepts they're theories you know but they're not for people I think one of the challenges is within the

mental health space or with people with people like not everybody needs to go to therapy it's and there's you know looking at it as like working on your mental fitness is maybe different than working on your mental health so if you're like mentally unhealthy yeah okay you know we all know that and maybe therapy and but it's like you don't have to have any massive problem in your life to work on your mental fitness it might just be like all right let me sharpen up some of my thoughts let me have like let me learn something different about how psychology and physiology and you know it's a much more proactive thing

it's not you know here's how you fix your anxiety or here's how you're like on get like you know here's the depression wad so if you're depressed because it's like that's that's like stigmatizing and frankly it's fucking crock of bullshit anyway well waiting until things are an emergency to deal with

them not the best long term approach to go back to the fat fuck analogy you could course correct after the first pound if you wanted to or the first 10 or like the first time your pants didn't fit you know like it

people don't seem to want to do that though I think I like the idea of adding the physical aspect to it I think it's an easy way for people to get out of their own way and if you don't have something on top of that I certainly saw this I think I have seen this in almost every physical pursuit

that I've ever watched there are people who will get lost at it or lost in it and they will say that you know I'm going to use jiu jiu jiu jit as an example, which I'm not, I think I've been at it for just over five years at this point. My wife, though, is a very high-level jiu-jitsu coach, and she can talk about her own personal experience, and I don't think I'm speaking out of school for her about what she is experienced and what she has seen, but people will use jiu-jitsu as an excuse as if it is their therapy,

but all they're really doing is getting lost in the practice itself and not working on themselves. And so it becomes, they're lying to themselves. Yeah. You're adding another tool to your tool belt because it's certainly a useful skill, but at the end of the day, the machine that you're going to be using that tool with, you didn't actually do any work on it. Right.

You just spent your time focusing on that skill, telling yourself that it was your therapy. Yeah. It can be therapeutic, for sure. But it's got to be intentional. Right. It can't just be like, hey, I'm going to go in there and beat the fuck out of Michael, which is what people do consistently and constantly. He's not very good at Jiu-Jitsu.

Purple Belt? Yeah, purple belt. I've got new purple belt powers. What are they? List a few. Being slightly less beaten up after we roll. That's not a power? That's one.

After you roll with who? You. That's not true. I've just given up. I'm not even trying anymore. Oh, never mind. I don't have any more powers. No powers.

But how many people, you own CrossFit, Jim? You sell the same thing. they it's like I'm gonna go be a games competitor and every day they're hammering it out and the rest of their life is a fucking nightmare. But I wouldn't even say that was, I mean, and I've said this to many people, like that was one of the things that got me to the point at our gym that had me decide to sell the gym. And you know, Bill and I will talk about it that like I guess in many ways like the gym wasn't the problem. Like I was the problem. My hopes and expectations. Jesus.

Finally, common ground. But, you know, I saw this, like, it wasn't even people that, the sad thing is it's not even people that are disillusioned to thinking they're going to the games. It's like the everyday people that are coming in and putting themselves through this, like, torture or even, you know, I said to Bill, like, what's so messed up about it is if If you said to someone, hey, listen, like, if you continue to do this, let's say go crazy five days a week with zero intention and just punish yourself and lie on the floor after, you're not going to get leaner, you're not going to get fitter, and you're going to get hurt. They'll actually still do it because it's like an addiction to this feeling or this fix or this. I don't even know what it is.

And I've been there before myself, like for sure. It's an addiction. It's an addiction to the mindless state that you're able to achieve. you're focusing on what you're doing and the workout as opposed to everything else and all the other bullshit in your life. It's a disassociation from... You're just like for 20 minutes

I don't have to think about shit. But don't worry. Real world's waiting for you right now. Like to your point, this is my therapy. I don't think about things and it's like, but maybe you should think about things. I think some of...

But you absolutely should think of it. Let's take the maybe out of that. You should think about things. At least sometimes. At least sometimes. times um but but i think that you know i don't know i i feel like it's um that that's like some that's like some novel thing like when we talk to people about like hey having like what did what came up for you or what what what what happened um if there's like nothing like what you're

leaving so much on the table for like you you are showing up you are having these thoughts they are coming like why not use that i mean it's it's not but it's not but but but it's also So, like, I think I've certainly used fitness to escape. Oh, God, yeah. Who hasn't? Right. Like, and it works so well. And you were really fit and really mentally unwell, which is the thing.

It's just because your fit doesn't mean you're mentally well. That's the optimal state for a man. I don't know if you know this. Yes. Fucking chiseled, rock-hard physique, complete fucking mess upstairs. Yeah, yeah. That's the optimal end state for an adult male. Right.

Hollow but hard. Totally. Yep. And again, right back to the chair. Back to the chair. This is good. This is good. Totally unscripted.

But yeah, you know, fitness works. It's the same thing why, like, drugs and alcohol are so fucking bad. And people are like, oh, you know, it's because it works. It's because they work.

And, you know, fitness can and, you know, this whole notion of, like, uh, if you're physically fit, your mental health will improve. No.

Because, oh, this thing and, you know, this study and everybody now like, well, and you're doing something hard. Well, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Like,

the hardest thing might not be doing the hard thing. David God, before you continue down that pathway, but whatever. That's the different, yeah. Who's going to carry the fucking boats, you know? I don't know either. No. I also don't care.

Yeah. Moving on. You need to be so hard that you carry the boats without even carrying them. If you're so hard, you could have other people carrying your boats for you. Yes. While you're in the boat. In a chair. Done.

But like I think. Like a swivel fishing chair, obviously. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. This is a swivel. chair. It is. These are the Rogan chairs.

Are they? The second time I was on a show, I'm sitting there swilling around. I was like, I crawled under the table with my phone and like took a picture of the label. These things are fucking awesome. Yeah. That's where they came from. Wow. Yeah. Impressive. But yeah, I think that's where just being, again, like, can we be honest?

If we can be honest about it, then we're good. Because obviously, like, and there is a thing too within therapy, like we'll definitely have that conversation of how, what are you doing to move your actual body? You know, because there is connection there and blah blah blah and all of that but you know it's not to say like you have to take it easy all the time or and that's another funny thing someone said that we got some feedback that

someone was like well well they hadn't actually ever come to our they didn't they weren't they never yeah they never did what we do but one of the things that we teach uh and and and we hope to work with like gyms and coaches and people who influence others is about like nervous system regulation and awareness of like where you're at and reading signals. And again, it's all based on honesty. Like I think the whole mental toughness fucking narrative and that whole glory, just rule it down to one word. It's just honesty.

Yeah. It's just honesty. And that's very simple. So this person. So anyway, they were like, well, it sounds like, you know, just like, I don't know, like giving people a free pass. Enabling. And enabling them.

And it's like, if that's what you really think, of course, the asshole and I was like, well, fucking come on in and we'll show you just how limited you really are. Because when it's when it's time to actually push and go there and dig deep, yeah, we want to be able to, we want to be able to express that skill, whether that's a physical effort, whether that's a difficult conversation, whether that's, you know, pulling back from a reaction, whatever that is. Like, you want to be able to go full on max intensity. but the people who often struggle with that the most

are the ones who convince themselves they're going hard all the time anyway and it just dulls it and it dulls it because you can't go I mean and that's from a physical thing that's we saw that every day at CrossFit 83.5% or people are like really good at

going like hard did you just make that number up I did okay yeah it's good it sounded good right your delivery was a little bit off it didn't convince me that's why I said that Tell me more. 83.5% of people? No, they're going at 83.5% effort.

Okay. So it's not 100% as many people will posit that they are going. It's like hard, but not maximal. But they won't pull back if you say, and this is one of the cultural shifts I think that needs to happen at CrossFit gyms. If you say like, you know what, I'm just like, I didn't sleep last night. I feel like shit, but I need to move my body. it's very, very rare, and this is after 15 years of owning a CrossFit gym that I can say this, it is highly unlikely that person's actually going to honor that.

The warm-up's going to start, the music's going to start, everyone else is going, and they're going to get right into it. And be like, yeah, I just got into it. And that's a positive in some cases because it's like... Just step backwards, though, for them. But then they just emptied the tank. And now from like what Bill's saying, this isn't like rocket signs, but from the nervous system, when they leave the gym and go to the rest of their life,

that's arguably maybe more important than that workout, they're in the hole. And all they do is spend their life the next day, same thing comes, they're never getting out of that hole. So what would make sense is to actually create an environment where you can like honor that. And then two days from now, you can actually go at 100% instead of this continual gradual burnout. And, you know, and I say this, it might sound like an arrogant asshole, but I mean, I'm not going to, hold back here with the leader of that of that group like sitting right here why the fuck would you say that while he's right here those are things you say when he's not in the room right when we drop in to our old crossfit gym we are very fit people so here we are like doing this

thing it's not to say like you know when someone might date someone they're like well are they like really attractive and they're like well she's got a really good personality and that says That's called being dishonest. It's kind of... No room for dishonesty. It's kind of like, like I could see if someone's like, well, hey, I hear you're doing this, you're honoring your nervous system and all this stuff, but like, but are you fitter? It's kind of, if you were to say like, well, like, we feel better, but we're really not fitter.

It's kind of like the good personality, but not really hot. Do you know what I mean? But we are actually fitter. It's a very interesting analogy. It's like kind of like the nice way of saying like, oh, that's nice that you're, you know like good for you like good for you you're you're feeling better but like your fitness looks like no no like you have a good personality on your hot do you know what i mean so it's like we're proving that this actually does work from if all you if you really care about performance great

this works for you too if you want to get better with your mental health great yeah this works for you too but people are that they are and i'm not i think it just needs to be a shift i think for people what's ironic about some of these workouts are they're not necessarily easy but it's one workout a week that's a deliberate it's like there's meaning behind it now they're not all you know burn it down workouts but they will challenge you it's not to say like don't ever challenge yourself but make some kind of meaning out of it or or peel back a layer and take a peek inside versus just doing it mindlessly suffering and just like checking in the box and then the next day the same the same shit um but it when did it get when did it get lost that the whole purpose of the crossfit workouts was to be better what you're doing outside of the

gym versus the competitive nature inside yeah where did we lose the forest for the trees on that one well when you have to do it every day because that's the thing is like how are you going to have time to go do anything else outside of the gym if you have to be in the gym every day you know what how long you're at the gym. I mean. But I got to think the games and the celebrityism of the competitive professional athletes, I think it's, again, like people want to, people look at, you know, people look at, yeah, people look at Rich Froning and the snapshot of what they think is his life.

Dude just fucking works out all that. I go to a job that I don't like. I'm in a relationship with someone who I talk. tolerate. I blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, it's easier, it's better. It's more delusional to look at what someone else has and see what you don't and say, I want that, you know? And it's like, well, now there's this weird thing where you can, you can, you can basically be like him. You just do these, do these workouts. You can lie to yourself and say that you're going to be like him. Of course. Of course.

And meanwhile, there's mental health problems with athletes. So it's like, so what are we actually emulating? Like the identity thing exists for high-level athletes as it does for, you know, veterans. Yeah, so does the mental health stuff too. Right. So it's like, so why do you want to, no one's saying that those athletes are mentally well. They're really good at what they do. But that doesn't mean they're mentally well.

So now you're trying to emulate someone that's not necessarily the best place in their mental fitness and your body probably isn't in a place that you should be doing what they're doing physically either and that's where the health piece is like yeah I mean and that is why like trying to attack this from a workout place like okay people are already working out if we can just add a little bit of a layer to it and you know there is something with involving the body you could read like I will say bill is a very good writer and does a great job Like articulating these, what do we call them? Therapeutic concepts.

I don't think therapeutic is the right word. Well, mindset is... What would you use? Awareness practice? I don't know. It's something to think about. That's a really shitty description. I'm not that good of a writer.

I'm not asking you to write. I'm asking to talk. Talk, monkey. Duh. Freezing. I don't know. Like, it's a concept. It's an idea.

For clarity, that's what she said. It's a concept. She said it was the therapeutic concept. But I think my issue with it is like therapeutic has a certain connotation to it. What would you change it to? Andy, if we could answer this question. Yeah, it's a good. We'll solve that shit right now.

Self-improvement concept. But like self-improvement also sounds like. Oh, sorry that there are people out there who want to get better. You know, I think... Judgy McJerton over there. Well, my hesitation with that and like therapeutic or, you know, self-improvement is that two things. One, it, I don't know if somebody's, like, self-improvement or therapeutic does still have, like, a little bit of a twing to it that... I can see that.

You know, so who am I to fucking say what someone's got going on? I don't know anybody and all of that. And I also think that like one of the challenges is like it's just, it turns into something that this, these words and these concepts just get watered down and diluted and used and abused. And yeah, you can say it's a mindfulness. You can say mindset. Like, yes, the word mindset's fine. And we all get it. But like everything is mindset.

And you can't control that. Yeah, I know. And I can't. And we can't control that. So in an effort to try to be like, well, what sort of is it in a way that's not grouped in with, you know, something that might not be. the case. Yeah, it's a philosophy, psychology, idea to just consider and use. And if it's beneficial to you, awesome.

You'll have a practice. You'll have a workout, rather. There'll be a journal practice, some questions for you to ask yourself. There's also, like, somebody else providing this to you so that, like, you're not just sort of with your own biases, so you have the benefit of a little bit of independence and objectivity. But it's cool because the way they're written, there's like a little catch. There's like a mantra. So like feel and deal is like one of them.

And I forget what the workout. Was that the thruster? Apparently, it's not that good. Okay, we've just written like many of them. Headspace here. Feel and deal was the thruster burpee, right? Yeah. Anyway, so the workout kind of makes sense with the mindset, but it's written in a way that like you can recall.

Like if you were just to read this in a book. Like if Bill wrote a book, like just 31 mindsets. When is Bill writing a book? He's in the midst of it. I'm glad you asked. I just started. What's going to be about? I want to use the concept of like the azmuth and land navigation to just help people who might feel like they're a little bit lost.

Some paths to maybe finding, you know, finding themselves a little bit more. It's funny you said that when you guys were talking about terms. I was thinking internally that comfort. is kind of what you are offering people. Yeah. And guiding is better than like solving. Like it's more of a guiding situation, not solving. Yeah, I think we're really, we're both of us, one of the things we really, you know,

we disagree about a lot, but like one of the things we do agree on is like we are very much not those people who think we have it figured out, who think that we know what's best for you. I'm scared of those people for clarity that have all the answers. do you though yeah well and what a fucking agonizing existence imagine knowing everything for every situation for the rest of your life every the complete known could be kind of dope i don't know you would rock at a cocktail party well party trick yeah i mean yeah there would be a there would be an interest in that for sure but like when you remove the people are very people are super concerned with the unknown it's a well they're curious about it too i would think it's robbing people of their curiosity would just be a death sentence. For sure. Yeah. And that's like a talk about a flat life.

I mean, no no fuck-ups, no failures, no learning lessons. We were like, holy shit, that totally. So I live my life. But to your point, that's a lot of kids. Like you were talking about this on the podcast with Jesse and like kids not having experiences of like learning, like learning the truth, learning the highway. And then you look at, okay, why do kids and. affluent areas get into drugs.

There's just no curiosity. There's no learning lesson. There's no falling off the cliff. And then, okay, like, shit, now I learn that. It's just all sort of a, there's no mystery in it. There's no having to work hard to get something. Like, some of that is, I think, part of the problem. But yeah.

So like guiding people versus saying, like, here, we have the absolute answer. And part of, back to the social media thing, unfortunately, being super polar. and saying like, no, we have, this is this, that's what is attractive. But if that's what it's going to take, then we're just not, we're not doing it. Like, that's, we're not willing to go there. I don't think you can offer a path for people, which is why I like the compass or asthma perspective. You can offer them or define for them the end state that you would hope that they would

achieve. Mental health, physical health accommodation, however you would want to describe it. people who get overly prescriptive, like I love broad prescriptions. This is all that you need to solve your business problems. Like, the fucker, I haven't even told you what business is. Yes, yes. Or, you know, cold plunge for five minutes a day and journal about it. But then, of course, post on social media about it.

So we all know what happened and it'll solve all your problems. Like the more overly prescriptive it is, I think the less effective it is. If you can define an end state that you're trying to help get people towards, they have to navigate it on their own, which is where it goes back to the asthma, because I don't know where you're starting from. No. You know,

and I don't know how calibrated your compass is. I think the world that we live in right now is actually probably not by design fucking up people's compass, but I think it absolutely is. It's making it harder to determine what true North is because, again, you go to the, I hate to use the, keep using the Kardashians as an example,

but they are a great example of something that is so highly curated that it's not true north. But a lot of people's compass are pointing out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think for people to, to, like, a lot of times there is that, being lost is like a weird experience too. Because like there's that moment where you realize you're lost. But prior to that, you were lost. You just didn't know it. So like, this is one of the things that I do actually now have empathy with people on. having been very lost myself, but like, I understand why people don't want to be honest with themselves. No, it's a tough road to hoe. And there's that burden of responsibility that comes with when you see something that's honest.

So I get why people might not want to go there if they're in a relationship that they feel like they can't get out of. if they're in a job that, you know, pays them really well. You know, everybody hears about like, I'm in a shit job. Well, the people who are in a really nice, cushy job feeling like trapped to that, you know, change. And so it's a difficult thing. And so for people to have their own, you know, their own experiences where they can develop their own compass from a place of honesty and learn like some of these principles. And again, not to be like, so you're jacked and rich and blah, blah, blah, and all of that, you know, fabricated bullshit. But so that someone can feel like, you know what, like, I might not know where I'm going, but I can navigate towards it.

I can get lost. I can, you know, I could pull out, okay, fuck. How do I pull out the map, shoot an azmuth when I'm like, oh, shit, I don't know where I am? That's a way more powerful skill, I think, than never getting lost in the first place. or knowing exactly or just like taking the road we're going to walk the road like that's that back to that like what society says the kids should do or yeah that's what i'm saying he can't set somebody's path for them well you can whether or not they'll get the enjoyment out of that somebody else might have is i think questionable but letting them find their own way to the end state i think is the only way for it to actually stick right and apropos like the name of talking about his book but the workout program that we have is the dose because it's like a dose of it's on a it's a dose of honesty for that person. Like it's, it's a weekly dose. It's not, like, when you look at psychedelics, you know,

that massive dose to Bill's point is like, yes, that's eye-opening. That might have peeled back a lot of layers, but you need to do something in the follow-on in a very, you know, a smaller level. You still got to walk through it. It blows that door open. Yeah. Where can people find out more about this?

Michael, let's pull up some websites and take a look at this shit. So you can explain what people are going to see when go between the ears btw and the ears that's a really poor spelling of that but it's yeah when i when we first the reason why there's no ease in it is when i first looked at this between the ears it was all these pictures of horse heads really yeah from between their ears so like like between their ears i'm like what the fuck is up did you specify horse in your search no but that's like a equine fucking thing All right. That's an equine thing.

So if you go to... B-T-W-N-the-Ears.com. Oh, shit. Things are moving around on that triangle. So if you go down to services, so the dose is in the online because you don't have to be in a geographic location to access it.

What else you got here? It's going around. So in-person is our gym. There's some testimonials there. Yeah. So we have, obviously, the gym, which is for people that live near us. which is...

In Jersey, the shithole of the world? That's correct. As I've heard it described by others. Yes. Yeah, we have some events. Actually, if you keep scrolling, well, yeah. So the dose, that's the online thing.

You can click on that. Speaking of David Gagins, which is kind of apropos, we did the 4x4 by 48 as a fundraiser a couple years ago. Actually, that's where we met Jesse. And although we're not fans of... Jesse, Kelsey, all of them.

Yeah, although we're not fans of David Gagins. That event is kind of cool because it's accessible. You can even walk four miles every four hours for 48 hours. So this year we're actually raising money for Heroic Hearts Project, and we're hosting it at our gym, and people can do it online. And if you want to find out more about Heroic Arts, you can literally listen to the episode. Well, I don't know what this is going to come out like a month.

So Jesse Gould was just on. Do you know what's better than doing the four? by 48 by 400 or whatever the fuck you said it was. Just write a check. Or that. Uncap that pen. Reward yourself afterwards. It's like, hey, you know what?

I was thinking about really physically punishing myself, but then I saw this PayPal link. So I'm just going to go ahead and watch Netflix. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Return to punching yourself in the face. Yeah. Totally. Yeah.

So that's, yeah. But that is kind of like, I think, what we do in a sense of, you know, using our backgrounds and, you know, fitness and military. in athletics of like having the body involved and yeah and then like mental health kind of therapy stuff and you know we don't know how to define it we don't know how to package it we don't know how to do any of that and I think like some of that's like we're okay with that too I think you have to be yeah there doesn't have to be a scientific explanation for absolutely everything and understanding every single freaking pathway right that makes one connect to the other

like I have no education past nearly failing at a high school but I can tell you that that my physical and mental health are intimately tied. Like I have to work on both of them. If I work on either of them to an exclusion, the results can be beneficial, but microscopic in comparison. Yeah, yeah. And I feel like most people,

it's just, I think this is the way hard. People get that. Like, people know that, I think, which is a good thing. It's just kind of like, okay, what do we do with that, getting people to evolve, I think. Are you writing book?

I just turned in my draft today. Really? Yeah. Very cool. Wow. You want to guess what the title is? Go fuck yourself I'm joking, don't you?

I mean, Andy, no. I would not be... I don't give a fuck what an editor says. This book is about not finding yourself in that chair. I mean, I love it. How long did it take you? Less than a month. It's one of the easiest things I've ever done.

So it's actually a combined book with Mike Glover. People have been asking me to write a book for years, I quite frankly wanted absolutely nothing to do with it. Glover convinced me that we should do a book Leadership-based, which is a genre that discussed me, and I didn't want to do, until he and I started having conversations about the things that we wish that we would have known

when we were younger, and the number of people that reach out to me for a Friday episode, there's no way I can keep up with it. And at first I thought it was just young men, and then I realized that it was a lot of young women as well. And then I started asking myself, why the fuck don't these people have someone in their life that they can ask it to?

There's a value in asking somebody that's anonymous, right? So there's a large portion of it that is that. But then I think there's a large portion of it where young people don't have the mentors that we were likely so fortunate to have when we were young. And there's a reason why they're asking those questions. So it's based around at least what I submitted. It was about since we're doing about 50% each, I think I submit it. And it was like 40,000 words.

I mean, I worked on like an hour a day. It just like was some of the easiest stuff that I've ever written before. Yeah, wow. It's really cool, though, that like your story, you know, it wasn't a traditional path. And now the kids, there is this like, like our son is going to take a year and go to Norway before he goes to college. Yeah. And it's not an academic year. It's a year of like.

That's what my middle son is doing right now. Yeah. And that's so highly unusual. and it's like that is one of the best things. I mean, that's not to say that if a kid does want to go to college right away. Like, that's great fit. For some kids, it's a great fit. It would have ruined me.

The military, I absolutely needed that guidance and oversight. My middle son graduated high school six months early. He works at the coffee shop. He literally just started a business cleaning windows, knocking on doors and cleaning windows. The only thing I helped him with was the name, it's peepingtomwindow.com. Swear to God. Would you ever forget a young child coming up and giving you a business, card that says peepingcomwins.

But some marketing professor would fail them for that. Of course. That's what's crazy. But the people who are irritated at that name can fuck off into the sunset because you don't want their business anyway. No. You know, I'm trying to get like a little penis stamp that he can leave on the corner. The squeegee? Maybe the squeegee

is like a dildonic. Yeah. Oh, dildonic. That is it, Michael, make sure we use that term in every podcast from here on out. But there's no wrong answer. I'm like, dude. Yeah. He wants to go to FVCC locally get his general ed stuff, but he wanted some time to just do what he wanted to do, to save up money, to travel.

And my deal with him was like, if you get a 3.5 GPL, I'll buy you a ticket anywhere in the world. Round trip, super fucking economy class. You're probably going to be sitting on the shitter in the airplane. So where's he going? He hasn't figured it out yet. And I don't pressure him to do so. He literally yesterday knocked on six doors,

got two clients. Made hundreds of dollars. I bought him a website, peepingtomwindows.com. It's not a big deal. It's not up and running yet. But like I can see this kid by next summer having like an LLC people working for him. And what would for and perhaps like, sure, taking a couple classes once you know what like, oh, I want to take a class on this or that. But spending four years at an institution.

Taking classes that other people tell you that you should take so you can be the person that they want you to become? Yeah. No. No. I'm not doing that shit. No. So that's awesome that some people, kids need, people don't have, most kids don't have someone like. you. I'm not so sure parents would want their kids to have a role model and influence like myself.

In a specific genre. It gets off the rails from time to time. I would call it non-traditional parenting. Yeah. Yeah. But generally, so far it's working. They're not dead.

You know, they're all alive. I don't think they have a criminal history yet. I had some run-ins here and there, but that's what you do when you're young. Yeah. So what do you guys want to close it out with? Thank you.

Thanks for having us. Yeah. Really appreciate the opportunity. the conversation and you know just just very grateful for that thank you indeed what do you got final words by the CEO fuck you that's perfect and we're done