Cleared Hot - Powered By BRCC - Episode 178 - Eddie Gallagher

Episode Date: April 26, 2021

Eddie Gallagher is a retired Navy SEAL. He received national attention when he was charged with war crimes in September of 2018, and subsequently acquitted in July of 2019. Eddie served for 20 years and completed 8 deployments, including tours to both Afghanistan and Iraq. Audible Better Help Acre Gold

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only be described as national attention after he was charged in September of 2018 with 10 offenses under the Uniform Code of Military Justice or UCMJ. Specifically, accusations that he stabbed to death and injured and sedated ISIS prisoner. I'm not even going to get into the charges because we talk about that whole ordeal in the first podcast that we set down and we continue the conversation here in the second one, but we talk much more about what the cost of war is. On the individual end in our country, his newest endeavor, he is an author and he has a book getting ready to come out called The Man in the Arena, which actually ties really well into the podcast sponsor, Audible. That would be one place where you could find it if you want to.

And I'm going to shut up. I'm going to let Eddie speak for himself. Episode number 178 with Eddie Gallagher. Enjoy. Close now. That is probably the coolest thing about the podcast is exposure to guys like Kyle. I, as I was, I mean, he was sitting in that chair. I had never met him before.

I met him downstairs. And as he's talking in my head, I'm telling myself, you need to recalibrate your perspective on life. Because this guy was in a hospital for three years. and by hospital, I mean, he was in the fucking hospital for three years. And I'm doing okay, living in Montana complaining about it took them 30 seconds longer to fill in the blank, something that I wanted to do. I left that. And I actually, it made me, I think I texted my kids to talk to them about, you know,

just appreciation and all of that stuff that goes along with it and just his attitude. And like, I just wanted to have a conversation with them about it. and then sat down at home, I'm like, fuck, I have got to up my game. Dude, I'm telling you. I listened to the podcast, and right after, I mean, I went to Andrea, I'm like, you have to listen to this, dude. Like, I was floored. And then, like you said, the rest of the day, I'm like, I have nothing to complain about.

Or like. It's shocking. It's almost like a window that you're looking through gets shattered a little bit. Yeah. You're used to just viewing the world through this lens. And then you hear an experience. And for people who haven't listened to that podcast, just. stop now and come back to this later.

Yeah. Go listen to Kyle. I mean, he was, I don't know. I know a few people. I only know him and Dakota personally when it comes to Medal of Honor recipients. I guess know Britt, but I haven't seen Britt in a really long time. But I know some people who have been pretty savagely messed up. And I have almost always been shocked by how their attitude just absolutely inspires me. I'm like, holy shit. And I want to remind him like, you know you're missing your legs, right? Like, we both know you're missing your legs.

Like, how are you so positive right now? Like, you don't have any legs under this table. Yeah, it's almost like I wish you wouldn't be so positive about this. You know, you're making me. But it is. It's inspiring to be around those people. I mean, it's the same with Dan Knoissem was my OIC, you know. So he lost his legs on our first Afghan deployment.

When I came back from that deployment, he was already up and going. We went and ran the Army 10K with him. And, I mean, it's the same, it was the same thing. Like, he was so positive. He was, like, already, I'm going to be, you know, I think he ended up being, he's not in the Paralympics. Yeah. I mean, that was, he was already looking forward to that.

And, yeah, it really, I mean, and that's what's beautiful about the having guests on like that. And, you're not only getting something from it. All your viewers are getting something from it. I had completely forgotten that we were recording anything. I mean, you can feel like the pressure that the headset on. on your head, so I'm like, oh yeah, okay, this is, we're actually podcasting. But I was so lost in what he was saying and just kind of enthralled in that story. Yeah.

If I lost both my legs, let me tell you about how much I'd be thinking about running. It's a literal and figurative round number, fucking zero. I would not be sitting in a hospital bed talking about how I'm going to go do a marathon. I'd be set on the running perspective. Yeah, I'd like to think, you know, because I'm sure you had these, you know, those thoughts while we were in and like oh if something happens like if my arm gets blown off my leg gets blown off you know how would i react to it and you'd like to think like oh i'd you know i'd be like dan canossan or but you never know until that happens so when you actually see people that go through that

because there are people that go the other route they get hurt and then they go it's like down the tubes and to see people overcome that and it yeah i mean it inspires me and i'm sure it inspires a hell of a lot of other people to just make their lives better. It's like, hey, guess what? You got both your legs. Now imagine what you can do with that attitude with both your legs. Yeah, my team leader, probably the single best example of leadership that I've ever been around in the SEAL community was an eight at the time, so an E8.

Amazing seal career. No scratches on them, none whatsoever. Contracting, pressure plate, both knees. Or at both legs. I think one below, one above. and you have a medical background. Have you ever heard of them? Which one is more difficult?

Is it below the knee? Sometimes they'll amputate higher. Is that a... Above the knee is the worst. Okay. Yeah. Like if you get below the knee, and I'm not a complete expert at prosthetics,

but I know, like, so in Dan Knaecon's case, his were both above the knee. And that was like what we were all hoping for was it was going to be below the knee. Okay. I had heard, I guess sometimes that they will amputable. more or maybe I think that is the case. They'll amputate more because maybe the recovery is better or there's less to deal with if there's not an articulating joint. But for him, there was one above, one below.

From what I heard, he took every pint of blood that they had down at Caff in Kandahar, like crashed on the table a couple of times. Jeez. Comes out of it. Hadn't spoken to him on the phone in years. Called him when he was still in recovery. And I'm like, did this actually happen to you because you're fired up about life? amazing attitude still. And it, again, just absolutely recalibrates the way that I feel about my life.

I feel so humbled and grateful to know those people. Yep. I think there's something to it when people go through traumatic situation, especially like his or like Kyle Carpenter's where it's like you are on the brink of death. And I think it is an awakening for people that are like, even though they come back and they might be missing two limbs or whatever, they're so grateful to just be alive. And it's almost, it's like almost a, you're born again. You know, you're like, now I've almost reached death, but now I have this new life that I'm going to make

the best of, you know. So here's the question. How do we simulate that everybody in the United States? How do we provide for people that awakening? Because I think if you have it, I never, had anything close to that. Obviously, had a night on target that didn't quite go my way. I think I had a few experiences where at least mortality was thrown in front of me and worked through like, okay, this is relatively scary. We're going to work our way through this. But I think that thrusting of the mortality in your face and those experiences will change your optic. And I think once it changes, it's very hard to go back. But I don't know how to provide that. And that lack of optic, again, non-professional assessment in my opinion, I think that lack of perspective

is driving, not the causal factor, but is definitely throwing gasoline on a lot of the fires metaphorically that are burning in the U.S. right now. Oh, I absolutely agree. Yeah. I think what you want to get into since this past year? I mean, you were. That was going to be my first question. How has your last year been?

So, yeah, I mean, you were the first podcast I did last year. Thank you, by the way, for that. No, thank you for having me on. It was definitely, it's so funny. Like, this, so if I could, one word that describes this past year for me, and it's, is growth. Like, it's been a whirlwind of just working on myself. It's been a journey, and it hasn't been easy. This past year has been rough in some ways, but it's also been beautiful and, like, so many others.

So, like, you know, when I went to your podcast, podcast, dude, I wasn't even beginning to be a mess yet. Like, I had just come out of all that mess. I hadn't, dude, I hadn't even processed. You probably were still in fifth year. Oh, yeah, dude, I hadn't processed anything. I thought I had, you know, and, you know, I think people go back and listen to our first podcast. I sound like, yeah, okay, you know, talking about everything. But, dude, in my head, I'm like, I hadn't even begun to process what happened. I mean, it was, and I was, it was, I pretty much took that two years of, and did the same thing I did with everything else in my career. Just stuff it down, throw it in the back.

Which I think is the healthiest way to deal with things. I've been told as a man. Yeah. It's, uh, if it starts to come up, just apply more weight. Exactly. It'll never express poor. Don't be weak. Just keep shoving it.

Be a man. That is something we should talk about. The negative consequences of a never quit, never fail. Oh, I felt it. Yeah. And that's when I started like feeling it is everything just, I mean, I don't think my body could take anymore. It was like, it's all coming out. So, you know, after our podcast, I went back and, you know, it was a good couple months of sort of like the honeymoon phase.

Like you're just out. You're sort of like, okay, what do I do now? And then I started writing the book. That's when it just, I was like, everything started coming out. You know, I had a real hard time. Did diving back into it, that process of writing? Not just, yeah, diving back into what had happened during that two years, but also having to die back in pretty much over my 20 years. And, you know, I had just thrown everything.

I had never processed really anything. I mean, losing all the friends that we've lost. You know, I've lost two or three best friends. I never probably just was like, okay, the only way I got through that was, vengeance was like I'm just going to go back over there and keep doing the job and you know what a way that I tricked myself with it and that's legitimately what what it was was a like a justification hey they knew what they were getting into it's part of the job this is what it takes and here's the thing the reason that's such a

good trick is because it's partially true if not no completely true I knew what I was getting into you knew what you were getting into as did they but of course you never, I mean, I can't speak for anybody else. I was never putting my gear on saying, yep, tonight's the night for me. You know, you're never having that thought, but you know that the odds are there, but you can, you can push it away by saying those things. This is the cost. This is what it takes. We all knew this going in. And it allows you to mentally take a step forward. But like you said, you're not, you're packing that suitcase and dragging it with you. You just don't realize that the, the path that you're leaving behind.

Exactly. Yeah. And then eventually you're going to have to unpack that suitcase, you know, five, ten years down the road. Yeah, I mean, I don't know the right way to say like to deal with that kind of stuff either. Like you said, I think it is true. You know, having that thought process that we had like, yep, this is what we signed up for. This is the cost. Let's, you know, move on.

Let's, you know, go avenge him or do whatever we got to do. But yeah, so when I was writing the book, you know, I had a ghostwriter, Andy Simmons, was helping me out. And so I would write a chapter, sent it to him, and then he would make it sound smart, you know. So it's not just my words. He put a lot more description in it. But the thing is, he kept asking me a lot of questions, you know, like, well, what did this? What did it smell like? What did this?

So then it really caused me to go back and, like, you know, think of past deployments. And it, yeah, it affected me. I was like, okay, I've never even thought about it this way. It's always just been like, yeah, that happened, move on. What were some of the hardest questions that he was asking you? I think, you know, about losing my buddies, that those were tough, you know, just being able to deal with the emotion, I guess, of, you know, admitting that I, admitting that I had emotions about it. And I'll tell you this, like, another thing I found out this past year is I am emotionally

deficient in a lot of things. I could have told you that. Yeah. I am also in, I wouldn't, I don't know what I can't say many ways, but I am aware of where I bump up into a place in my own head where I will say to myself, is it right to feel this way and by that I mean is it right to not feel anything yep it's the it's I'm I'm governed and I don't know I don't know if that's who I was before I joined I don't know if that's you know like from a chemical perspective I had great parents same here it grew up in an

totally enriching home where I was working with my dad and physical labor totally calibrated my compass I feel like I had great morals going into the military I feel like I was a very, well, it was hard to say how emotionally a whole you are when you're 18. You know, I wasn't developed. I can tell you that much. But I feel like I could experience that full range of emotion, whereas occasionally, not often, but occasionally I will bump up into situations where I will quietly, and it usually happens in a group of other people who are having like a particular emotional reaction to something. And I'll sit there quietly wondering to myself, is it normal that I don't share this? Yep.

I mean, that's pretty much, yeah. And what's funny is, like, when you're in, that's normal. You know what I mean? Like, you're around the same guys all the time. Well, it's taught. Yeah. The compartmentalization is taught. So, yeah, it was real hard for me.

And this is where, you know, the emotional intelligence where I was lacking, really came to the forefront, is I was writing this book and getting really pissed. Like, or I would just get really depressed. I went, you know, I was writing the book. We have a big closet in my second story of our house. So I would go in there to, you know, work on the book. And my wife and kids, I mean, they would tell me, like, you, there's something wrong with you. Like, I'd come out and just, I'd be like a complete different person, you know, demeanor, just depressed, pretty much.

And I was angry. But I had no idea I was angry or I was, like, I was just frustrated that I was feeling this way. I was like, why am I feeling this way? why do I have these, I don't know what this is. And my wife's looking at me. Almost as if you were frustrated to feel. Yes. And so my wife.

In general? Yeah. And it's so, like, it's funny. Now that this has ever happened to me. Of course, I'm only talking about you. But you feel like a child. You know what I mean? You're like, oh.

Because my wife's like, yeah, those are feelings. And like, this is how you're supposed to deal. You know, you're supposed to be able to feel this way. You don't have to get mad because you were feeling a certain way or whatever. But to me, I was like, I've never, you know, at 20 years I haven't dealt with this stuff. So it was very hard to like work through. I, you know, I ended up talking to somebody once a week.

I still do. And that was a huge, huge help. I've been at it now almost two years at once a week. And you want to talk about life changing. Yeah. People, I think people get tired of me talking about it. And now I'm like, fuck you. I'm never going to stop because it's such an easy.

I'm not going to say that. It's not an easy thing to do. Sitting down and talking with somebody for an hour. is an easy thing to do. Getting something out of that hour is not easy. Because you have to do the work yourself. And I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions. Like, oh, I'm going to talk to somebody.

It's like, no, no, no. Boom. You have to do the work. That person is not going to unpack shit for you. They can open doors and say, hello. Mr. Stone, would you like to go through this door? I'm like, no, close. Next.

We'll get back to that door and next Neviary. Yeah. And that's the key, which you've said this before, too. I mean, you have to do the work. You have to make a work. decision that you want to change. And that's, it took me probably a couple months of just being depressed and being pissed off, you know, doing the book to where I finally was like, you know, I saw the impact it was having all my wife and kids. You know, they were putting up with it, but they weren't happy

about it and they weren't, it wasn't like comfortable to be around me, you know, and so I was like, you know what, that's, this is it. I have to like change. I have myself have to change. I have to change a way I think about things. I have to change something, whatever's going on. So that's, you know, I went and started talking to. It's actually, his name is Dr. Chris Frow. He wrote the, he read the operator syndrome, the paper. Have you heard about it?

I've heard about it, but I have not read it. So he wrote that. I mean, this guy is like a saint, dude. He talks to all sorts of operators from every branch. Let me guess. He finds similarities. Weird. To pick a word.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, but he's been doing it for years. So, I mean, you know, for him to, you know, get all this data and then write this paper, it's, and it's all common. You look at it, you know, like, oh, no shit. You know, it's common sense. But until someone has it on paper, like, here is everything, I think it's, you know, that's the way to move forward and get the word out about what we put ourselves through. Where did he start with you? Having, I'm not familiar with his paper, although I do think I have heard. about it and it talked about a lot of the similarities from an emotional perspective. And I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, but it talked about, I think a lot of people would think that people from our background are less empathetic, but I actually think a lot of the guys are much more empathetic, but also still very muted in their emotional range. Yeah. I might have just totally, I know exactly what you're saying. Yeah. We, yes, we do have, we do feel and we're very, I mean, we are very emotional people.

I would almost say in this certain range feel very, very deeply. Yeah, it's just we've been, like you said, we've been trained not to show that. It's control your emotions. Don't show that you're feeling a certain way. And that applies to our job, you know, going on target, having to make these split decisions, like don't let your emotions get the better of you. But that goes for the outside as well. I think we have a hard time balancing those two.

So, yeah, where'd you guys start? So where'd you guys start? He, I mean, we started obviously telling the story of, you know, the trial and everything. And he had heard of it, you know, and so we went through that thinking, like, that was the main cause, you know, like this, you know, let's walk through this first. So we dealt with that. But that, that wasn't it. I mean, that was definitely part of the reason I was feeling a lot of anger and anxiety was huge. My anxiety, my anxiety. like skyrocketed. But then, you know, we started, kept digging and we went all back to my childhood. And that's where a lot of the stuff, and I like you, just like you, I had good parents. But I did go through some, you know, adversity going up. And, you know, I moved around every two years as a military brat. Like, I wasn't the best kid as far as, you know, at school. I got kicked out of a lot of schools, got a lot of fights.

just a very I was angry as a child and so we we dug into that which that helped out huge and then just through my career and we're still talk I mean I haven't

believe me I haven't even come close to uncovering all of it but I definitely feel I mean just in the past year I feel like a different person does it feel like actual weight off your shoulders? Yes yeah you feel

yeah you don't walk around And what I can say right now is I'm more aware. I'm more aware of if I start feeling a certain way, I'm like, okay, it's coming on. Why am I, why is this happening? Why am I getting triggered by this? And then I can work on, you know, calm myself down, which is a lot of it is just breathing. Breathing, just, you know, focusing on. Probably re-centers you back into the actual moment.

Yes, exactly. And I, you know, and I went and did a lot of treatments as well through the past year. I did the hyperbaric oxygen therapy, H-Bot. I did about 60 dives of that. Really? Mm-hmm. Do they have you sleep in that thing, or is it kind of a bounce dive? It's an hour, so it's one hour each time.

So I did two a days, so I would go an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon. And what are those targeting? You actually might want to unpack it a bit for people who are. Yeah, so believe me, I'm not the right person to be unpacking it completely. I understand it to be pressure and oxygen. And then that's the limit of my knowledge. You're like, go ahead and unpack that, Eddie. Sound like a super smart person.

I don't. So what I was told of what it does is it sort of heals the brain. So they've been using it on NFL players and also autistic kids or autistic adults. I just sent my dad down there who he just started, he just started displaying some signs of early Alzheimer's. So he went down and what it's supposed to help heal, heal your brain, heal your body. I felt great when I was doing it. After the first session you noticed in? No, it was probably 20 sessions in. I was like, okay, I feel better. I feel, you know, clear. and my thinking was a lot clear.

My attitude was just better. And my body actually felt good, like working out and everything. It's almost like, you know, in second phase when we're doing on the Drager. You know the best recovery for a hangover. Yeah. Dregor dave. Your run times improve in second phase because you're constantly on. Pressure and oxygen.

Yeah. Pure O2 for the Dregors people. And that's, yeah, it's the same premise with this H-Bot. So I did get some, you know, benefits out of it. I'll tell you it wasn't, it's not the end-l-b-all, and a lot of it sort of wore off. And then I went to, I went to the Mexico trip. That was a pretty... Did you go through with Taka?

I didn't go through with, he went before. He probably set up that, or facilitated? Well, Amber Capone. Okay. Amber and Marcus Capone set it up for me. I worked with Marcus, and when I was a first phase instructor, so I had a good relationship with him. them in the SEAL Future Foundation.

They all sort of helped me out with getting me out there. What was the determining factor for you to make the decision to head down there? Because from the people that I have talked to, the reason I ask that is I know of one person who had, I get hard to describe it for him. He ended up taking his life later on, but would go through those treatments. And from most of the people that I have talked with, the treatment is impactful and not for a short period of time. Yeah. This individual would relapse relatively quickly afterwards.

So it's not, again, it's not a faucet. You can just turn it on and off. No. Much like I don't think anything, much like counseling isn't. I was just going to say. So a counselor Wednesday, I'm good. My damn motherfucker. One time, you need to put a couple of zeros behind that.

And then you're going to be making some progress. But in the descriptions that I've heard from people that have gone on those, whether it be ibugain or Iowas. I'm assuming it's probably IB gain. Yep. It's not pleasurable in the experience. It is rough. Dude, I mean, I'd like to see this.

I'd like to see somebody take it and go party just to be like, see what they would do. But yeah, there's no way I would take that as a recreational drug. It is super intense. It's not fun. It's not like horrible either. It's just, it's work. So just like we talked about before. Like in your face is what I've heard it described as.

You can try to avoid it if you want to, but it's like a woodpecker at the bridge of your nose, just smashing at you. Yeah, you can't. Well, you're not escaping it. Once you take those two capsules, you better, you better strap in, motherfucker. Here we go for 10 hours, like. 10 hours? Yeah, mine was about 10 hours. And I'll tell you what, I had a, I had a very good experience.

I didn't throw up, didn't. This is actually pretty funny. you know, but I had prepped before I went. So when I made the decision to go, you know, I had talked to enough guys that had been and surprise, surprise, they all were dealing with the same issues that I was. And it wasn't, you know, I talked to my wife about it. And so she definitely was like, what the fuck, you know, this doesn't, this is crazy. So I had her talk to a bunch of other spouses whose husbands had gone through.

And finally she was like, okay, yeah, let's. let's do this so before I went they assign you a counselor so I called up and I'm like okay this counselor calls you probably like a month and a half out and walks you through they won't tell you what the experience is going to be they want they're like we're not going to like discuss that because each person has their own I was going to say it imagine they it'll give you like a bias when you go in but what they do is they're like you know start meditating start working on your breathing, really like try to build up to hours of just your eyes closed and breathing, which is I couldn't even do five minutes, you know, at that time, I was like, this is ridiculous.

But I'd busted my ass trying to get to that point. I think I mean, I got to like 45 minutes and I was like, this is, you know. So you're laying the foundation though. Yeah. And then I worked in my diet. They were like, hey, cut out alcohol, cut out, you know, bad food. I eat predominantly pretty healthy but um you know the drinking i was like okay i stopped that for the month uh before i went and uh you know they wanted to cut out caffeine i was like that if that's not happening i go fuck yourself yeah everybody has limits yeah i'm like hey guys i'll take the 90 percent yeah we're gonna have to talk about that last rule but uh it i think that's what i mean that definitely helped me going into it um i think some guys show up just like you know with a regular

team guy like let's figure it the fuck out and let's do this uh and then once but once that medicine kicks in if you haven't worked on your breathing or worked on really centering yourself i can see that going completely haywire and then that's where a lot of guys throw up um they get disoriented because you do so the first 10 minutes when i took that medicine you know i waited for it to kick in um there was three other guys in the room with me you have a blind you know uh sleep mask on you're laying on a bed um you have people there watching over you, you have EKGs hooked up to you. And they told me, they're like, you know, you'll know it's kicking in when you hear a buzzing sound. I was like, okay, I think I was the last one for it to kick in because I was hearing everybody else throw

up. I was like, oh shit, this is. That's not awesome. No, I was like, oh, God. Sweet. This is what I have coming right around the corner. Awesome, glad I came. Yeah. I was like, here we go. But once, then all of a sudden the buzz, I mean, it's like a loud, but it sounds like a, like a chainsaw or you're just like, whan, and you're like, oh, shit. And I felt the back of my brain just like, it's all like lights up. And the bed started, I mean, legitimately the bed was trying to buck me off. It was like a Bronco just going around the room. And you legitimately feel like this is happening.

You're like, your body's going nuts. And the bed started flying around the room, like slamming back and forth. Like it feels like it's trying to get you off. And that's where the breathing came into play. I was like, okay, I know this is the drug. Just breathe and get through this. And then, you know, that lasted probably about 10 minutes. And once that went away, it was, you know, it shot me up into space.

And I just started seeing my life, like, sorry, a whole movie before my eyes from the moment I was born all the way up to present. But, you know, you could like pick which scenes out of your life you wanted to deal with or you wanted to. So there was some semblance of control that you had over what you were confronting? Yes. You definitely have some control. I mean, I did to where I was watching this film and I would go like, okay, I don't want to, you know, that's great. But then, you know, show me something else. And I'm like, oh, I want to dive into that.

And then I could dive into that scene. And then it would, that scene would be an even bigger, like go in and, like, say it was a scene of me and my dad when I was little. And I'm like, okay, I want to see more of that. Ben, it would just show me more of that scene and what happened afterwards. It's hard to explain. I have zero experience with psychedelics, but incredibly, I'm fascinated by it. And again, anytime anybody's willing to talk about their experience, because some guys are not. I know of a lot of guys who have gone down there and have said nothing about it to anybody,

which I completely in utterly respect, of course. But I think the more people are willing to talk about the experience and what they got out of it. I think that, as with many things, right? You need to be able to ground swell to sway. Exactly. Be vulnerable. I'm like, yeah, this is what I did.

And it did work for me. You know, in the end, it was a good thing. It laid a foundation for me of, you know, at the end of that 10-hour experience, and this is the crazy thing is after the 10 hours, like, it ended, and I just lift up my face mask. and I think it was like, you know, nine or ten of nine in the morning. I get up and one of our good buddies, he was, I don't know if he, I won't say his name, but he was a guest on your show. He was there.

And he was like, dude, you didn't move a muscle all night. He's like, your heart rate was flat. Like, we thought you flatlined. And they were like, we came over and you just had the biggest smile on your face the whole time. While the three other guys were like puking their guts out. I mean, I felt bad for them. Just like, do that look forward. Fuck that.

You won the ayahuasca, dude. Everything's a competition. Boom. Crushed it. What's next? First place or no place, bitches. It was, yeah, it was good. I went out and I wrote probably like six pages in my diary of, like, of, you know, brought a notebook and I'm like, I want to write down everything that I got out of this.

I wrote down six pages and you have the rest of the day to chill. And then the next day you do the five. MEODMT, which is the toad venom? Yes, the toad venom. Which I've heard is impossible to describe. Yeah, I mean, it's what they call it the handshake. Okay, so you do the Ibegain. That shows you what you want to know.

And so before you even do the Ibegain, you have to write down your intentions of what you want to get out of the medicine. And then you throw those intentions in the fire. They do like a whole seance, yeah. I think a seance is where you move the little. Maybe I'll board around. Luigi board. Seance is when you're trying to communicate with the dead, I think. You are probably correct.

I like that you used that term, though. That's what it felt like. Yeah. You're like, you know, those are waving sage around and they have like a shaman there. So it's very spiritual. Oh, it's very spiritual, very reverent. And you can, you can, whatever your beliefs are like, you know, I'm a Christian, I went out, you know, they did the whole, still called a seance with the sage and everything.

And so after that, I went outside and got on my knees and prayed and talked to God for 10 minutes. And I was just like, please, you know, let me get something out of this that, you know, that I need to get. So after you do the Abbegain, it shows you, it shows you like what your intentions were. And here's why you're feeling this way or whatever. But you sort of come out of it like, okay, what I still have this feeling. But now, you know, it showed me what I wanted to see, but I'm still not. all the way there. That's where the 5MEODMT is supposed to release everything. And it does. I, you know, I went up there, you smoke it. I think you, you know, breathe in for 10 seconds,

hold it for 10 seconds, let it go. And as soon as you let it go, you fall back. And they have you on a bed. And but the thing is, when you fall back, there's no bed there. You're just like falling. It's nuts. And so it all comes down to trust. So you, you just have to be a bed. So you just have to trust the medicine and you're like because you can freak out like people do freak out they fall back and then they're like oh shit because there's no control uh and so i just let it not just keep falling and i just kept going and then all the sudden it's like this uh and it's not you know i'm sure it's different for everybody but for me i saw it was like these uh bright colors like pink all these hues you know and they were sort of just like pulsating and you feel this just

intense love. I mean, it's this crazy feeling and I was just bawling my eyes out. It was like just getting everything out that I had seen through the Ibegain and just releasing it. And I took it two more times because they were like, hey, do you think you got everything out? Because it only lasts I'd say about five minutes. Does it feel like five minutes or does it feel longer when you're in it? No, to me it felt like five minutes. Like I was, you're still like aware. You're like, oh my gosh, I'm feeling this way. And then it does go away. And then they give you like a couple minutes. Like, hey, do you want another one? I'm like, okay. So I did did it three times. The third time I was like, I think I got everything out. I walked downstairs and I literally went and, you know, they put you in a

bedroom just to chill out. And I started laughing. Like, but it was like a, like I was a kid again. You know, just like happy laughing. It was, it was pretty amazing. So, you know, I left there feeling, you leave there feeling like you have like a glow about you. You know, you're like, you're sort of reborn. You know, you feel, you know, everything the, everything on the outside, the sky, the trees. It's just, is more intense. And that lasts for a couple months.

But just like everything else, like we talked about with the counseling, like you still have to put in the work afterwards like guess what that's not the end-all be-all it'll go away yeah um so it's to continue to put in that work and deal with deal with your issues you know um and that's and i think that's what i got out of all the treatments i did and i think that's like the message that i'm trying to put out to dudes you know like there's no magic pill that's going to make this stop like you have to be the one to fight for yourself you know you spent 20 years or however many years fighting for this country, fighting for the brothers next, you know, the right and left of you, now it's time to fight for yourself, keep that fight going, and make yourself a better person

for you and for your family. And that's what it is, you know, that's what it's all about. It's, I mean, I'm not even, I'm not there yet. I'm not completely healed. No will I ever be. It's just. You guys are going to say, I don't think that road has an end. No. I think you're just on that path. Yeah. What did, uh, what did, what did, what did you expect? to get out of that treatment. Like what was it where you're like, you know what? I'm going to go here because this is the one for me. Or this course of treatment, I think will be impactful.

I can tell you my intents, which I wrote down, I wanted to feel happy again. Like not just happy, like, oh, you know, but I wanted to feel like I looked at my kids, like my, you know, the way they play and laugh, and they're just like so innocent. And you're like, dude, I want to feel like that again. Like have that, that energy.

And so I wrote that down, like, I think I wrote down, like, I want to feel innocence again. And then I said, you know, I wanted to deal with the stuff in my past. And then just uncover, I want to be a better person. I think I want to be a better person and father, husband, father, for my, wife and kids. What'd your wife say about you after you came back? She noticed a big difference. I literally like got off the plane and she picked me up and I probably lasted a second. I started bawling in front of her and I was like, you know, I'm sorry for, you know, everything, just anything just anything I've done in the past. But then we, you know, we talked and she noticed a big difference.

it was you're more aware of your emotions it helps you that's what helps you big time you're like okay I do feel I feel happy I feel sad and this is why and I could sort of articulate why I was feeling certain ways which was great with her because then we can have like a conversation about it where before I would just shut down and be like yeah wall it off whatever I'm not talking about it if you could go back and talk to your young self with the knowledge of the baggage that comes with the job, would you still do it? In a heartbeat. Yeah. There's no, I mean, yeah, there's no, I knew when I signed, I mean, as young as we were, you know, I was 19, I knew when I signed up.

I don't think I knew exactly what I was sacrificing. knew I was like my ass belongs to the military. I'm willing to give up whatever to you know serve my country. Now at the time my young son I didn't know what that meant. Yeah. And I don't even think you know what it means when you're 10 years, 15 years in. You're just like yeah, I'm sacrificing my freedoms. I'm sacrificing. Well, you're lost in the job. Yeah. It's not until you get out to you, you really start like, oh shit, this is what they're talking about. You know, like, yeah, there's parts of you that are affected. But that's that comes with a job. job. So I would never, you know, I would willingly give all that, you know, everything that I've had to deal with,

I'd do it again with the same outcome. Do you think it's possible? So if we reduce warfare down to at some point, it's a human being like you and I squaring off, you see your enemy, you make a life and death decision, which I think is what warfare has been like since the beginning of warfare. Right? There's ways that You could remove that with technology like Preds and Reapers and all that stuff, which has limits. I think there will always be, there will always be a place for a human being crossing the threshold of the door somewhere. Because, I mean, I've thought a lot about this. If you really think about our old job, at some point, it's to get us somewhere to go through the threshold of a door or a compound or something. Yes.

And so again, can you isolate and contain and blow it up with a JDAM? Sure. Not when they surround themselves with women and children, because they're not. stupid, they understand our limitations. Given that that is the requirement, do you think it's possible to have people doing that job without the baggage that comes with it? Or is that just the cost of war?

And I ask because if we can accept that it's the cost of war, I think as a society and a country, we need to have many more conversations about the cost, the bill that's going to come do, at the end instead of ignoring that. Because I personally land on I don't know if it's possible to do that job without the baggage. But it's not addressed until it's a fucking catastrophe at the end. And that's a disservice to not only the people who have to carry that baggage, but I think our country is a whole.

Yeah. And I know. I don't think that you could do this job, especially a combat-related job and not come back with some baggage. I mean, and it differs for each person, right? I mean, you could have a person going one combat deployment, and like, that's enough for them. And then they could have PTSD or whatever for the rest of their life. And you have, you guys in right now that are 16 deployments in, still going. But which that's an interesting conversation in of itself as well.

When do you step in? Can you step in? Would they let you step in and self-regulate so they can actually be a functioning human being for the rest of their life, let alone a contributing member to society? Yeah. Or would that person that's on 60 appointments let you step in? That's what I'm saying. Would they allow you to? Would they?

I could tell you from where I was at? No. You couldn't have told me like, hey, man, I think you need to take a knee. I was like, why? But I think that comes, again, based on why I asked you that question, I think that comes from the fact that they don't address the baggage until it becomes an issue at the end. I would like to believe that, you know, like people like to ask me questions about the conceptual nature of war. I'm like, listen, at the very best I operated at a tactical level

and that there's levels of war, right? Strategic, operational, tactical. And I was this little motherfucker over here, like running around with my own gun. I was a pawn. Yeah, like, but willingly. And I enjoyed my job. It doesn't make me an expert at things. I knew a little bit up the chain of command or up the ladder, the bureaucracy of the wheels that make war work. But really fast, I get out of my pay grade and people ask questions. I'm like, uh, I don't know. But at a strategic level. I wonder if, you know, at a policy level in the United States and say they're sitting at a table like this with, well, social distancing, there won't be two people here, right? Couldn't have six or eight. But let's say that there's eight of the smartest people in the world trying to figure out the policy going

forward and whether we're going to be interventionalist or we're going to get involved in different areas. I wonder if they talk about the after. The cost. The cost. I feel like it's the last thing on the menu if on the menu at all. And that's why you can't stop the dude who's 16, 18 deployment Steve because nobody's fucking paying attention to that. And I can say from my own experience, and on this topic, people ask me all the time about my experience. I saw way less action than a lot of people and more than some. Like it's like I, it's very hard to to measure that so I can only talk from my experience. But if I hadn't gotten shot and had that race car in fifth gear jammed into reverse, I'm like, there went.

tranny and had to lift my head up a little bit, I know exactly what you're saying. Like, there's no way that you could have stopped me. I was doing what I wanted to do at an incredibly high level. And even if presented with somebody saying, hey, you need to take a knee, I would have ignored that. Yeah. And to my own detriment. Yes. Oh, for sure. I mean, we're self-destructive in that in that manner where we'll just keep going until we cannot. I mean, that was my mindset. It was like, I will keep doing this job until my body and brain cannot physically do that anymore. That is the most selfish, you know, my perspective now. Yeah.

That's the most selfish attitude when you are married and have kids. Like, I'm not thinking about how they're doing or how they're going to deal with me. I'm just like, this is what I want to do. And on the other side of that, being selfish and focusing on the job to the exclusivity of everything else is what makes it possible for the community or communities to special operations in general. I have nothing but respect for everybody in that world. And I know Seals get a lot of they get a lot of fucking airtime, but there's so many other communities out there doing great things. But in those communities, guess what you're going to find? People focusing on the job

to the exclusivity of other things. Family, divorce rate is what it is for reason, kids. and that razor blade, it's what allows people to do amazing things on target or get to a target. Yep. I don't know how to balance it. Exactly. And I don't know how, like, I don't know the answer. It's because I've had, you know, people ask me the same thing. What, you know, what's too much? And again, it depends on the person. It depends. Yeah. It depends on the person. And I think, you know, if too much is one or two deployments, then great. I mean, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's like, I almost feel, maybe being able to identify what is too much per person would be a step in the right direction.

Because I can think back, you know, I've spent some time in the same place, lovely Fab Nabaher. When we were getting Nabaher to Nabaher. When we were building the new compound and, you know, sometimes it would rain borders as opposed to rain. And we were getting the metal rain one day as opposed to the liquid rain. And I remember seeing one of our calm guys. He was fucking fried after that. After one or two of those evolutions of being on the receiving end of the mortars that they'll set up and they're so far gone by the time they fire off anyway. So there's no chance to even really defend yourself, which is probably the most.

I think that's what I hate the most is when you're just on the receiving end, there's actually nothing you can do to change the outcome. And you're like, well, because you're on the defensive. Yeah, I'm like, hope I, well, there's nothing to even to shoot back at it. Yeah. It scrambled it. It scrambled it. Like, to the point where, you know what, maybe you need to go back and let's work on comms, you know, back at the TU headquarters. Identifying that as opposed to pushing it and forcing it for him great decision. But you only got 16 operators out there. And was he a seal? He was not.

Okay. So this is peripheral, right? So, and so to the mortars to me, I remember I was in like flip-flops in like board shorts with my gear on, like running up to go get him to a machine gun. position and like found the dude in the bunker like two hours later still shaking smoking no judgment of that individual whatsoever we had such divergent uh training pipelines well actually i had a training pipeline i don't think he had any uh pipeline that involved mortars at comm school yeah right so one i'm like this is an expected portion of my job he on the other end it's unraveling him but you have to address those two things differently and i look at the people that i served with holy shit man there's not a template of we're all, I can spot a team guy from 100 miles away, but we're all so incredibly different. And so I don't, again, I'm not smart enough to figure out how you move the stereo

needles or not needles, the knobs. And, you know, eight guys are doing okay over here, but you need to pull these two back. And maybe it's not they leave the community. Maybe it's they go back to Mugenson or whatever. And they get out of it for a little bit and rotate through and all that shit's lost when you're just task saturated with target after target after target. I don't, I don't have the answers for it. But you also then so say that does like let's have that scenario where we're like okay this hey these two guys aren't doing so hot or they're not let's pull them back. You know as well as I know like if those two guys get pulled out two or three guys get pulled out the rest of the guys are like where the fuck did they go? Yeah. And then that's when the shit talking starts or whatever

they're like weak you know and that's and that's out of like I'm not saying that's out of hate either. that's team guys just busting balls but i'll tell you what those guys aren't feeling it that way like they're leaving they're like you said you're not at the table you're on the menu yeah and nobody wants to be on the menu so no one what i see is no one really wants to stop because they're like there's that pure pressure as well we're like okay i don't want to be i'm going to keep going even though i probably should take a break because i don't want to let my guys down and end up being on the menu. And that, I think, may be something that you could address culturally early on, right? Like, one of the beauties of the SEAL teams, of which I think there are many, I wouldn't be the person

I am today absent those experiences, positive and negative. But that origin point, right, where we all step through the quarter deck and get our ass handed to us immediately for the next six months. You don't learn shit in buds other than to be hard and to run and all that stuff. Yeah, just how much grit you have. But, you know, that's where these things of like never quit, focus on everybody to the exclusion of yourself, right? Never let down your teammates. Again, I am not smart enough to figure this out, but I agree with you. If those two people say, hey, I need to take a break from this, they are going to get consumed unless there's a way to change it there culturally. And that, and I think we have the ability to do that because of that inception and origin point. And then again,

this is where I hope at the fucking strategic level, the people who are trying to figure this stuff out and like, okay, how do we, these are the countries that we need to go in and these are the places that we need to be for the security of the United States. Like, Roger that. And then let's talk about the cost. Like, that has to be an all-encompassing conversation. Yep. Otherwise, the people who are carrying the baggage around are going to get crushed at some point.

Yep. And like you said, I don't think the cost even comes close to coming up in those conversations when they make these strategic decisions. I mean, you can go back to the past 20 years and some of the strategic decisions that were made. You know that wasn't talked about. You know that the cost. I feel like I fear that it wasn't even considered. No.

I mean. And that's the benefit of not having to send your own son or fucking do it yourself. Like, hey, buddy. Yeah, we'll do this. You want to come with? Exactly. That's, and the more of that needs to happen. It's like, you should come out.

I mean, you see it when we're out there and these generals or admirals make their battlefield circulations when we're out of these shithole fobs that are getting attacked every other day. They always show up on like when it's the safest time to come out. they get a 20 minute glance around. They're like, all right, everything looks good. And you're like, all right, see you. And go right back to doing what we're doing. And they go back and give that report back like, hey, everything's great.

We're winning. Matter of fact, it's like, you want you to come out and talk to the guys and really find out what's going on. I mean, when... Talk to that calm guy. Yeah. Who can barely get the cigarette into his mouth. We had a general come out at Nobarhar. and we did a foot patrol west of the fob for like maybe a click.

Like out and back, he was on nods. I think I'm pretty sure he had a rifle, which is the most dangerous portion of the evolution. But why? And then he left, you know, and I mean. It's like what kind of situation awareness are you really getting by spending that little time? Yeah. I mean, it's and then. Or does he have the time to sit down and get the real spit from the guys?

Yeah. Here's a better question. Does he actually want the real spit? Or are the guys allowed to give him the real spit? Because you know when these generals and animals show up, it's like, hey, shut the fuck up. Don't ask any questions. Don't ask stupid questions. Don't say anything that's going to piss him off.

But in reality, you know, you always have that one or two guys in the platoon who don't give a shit. And I'm like, why the fuck are we here? What do we, you know? And OIC's just like, go. Yeah, like, here we go. But, I mean, it's, yeah, it's funny to look back now, you know, after the, you know the experience that I've had and then you know you've had over the past two decades and just to see like I think when I when I was in and like going through all that I always had this like this trust of like these people who are making the strategic decisions are smarter than I am and they're doing they're looking out for us and then as you keep going on in this war you you come to the realization like now like this is you know like I was saying I was back in uh mazul you know for the second time clearing it again and

for what, like, I get, the purpose was to, you know, clear out ISIS, but what are we doing after? And who are we handing it off to? Like, are we going to come back here another five years, do this again? I don't think those decisions aren't, they're not thought through. Then same with, you know, the VSO coin strategy. I mean, I remember that's how we ended up in Navajo. We were out doing disruption ops for having the time of our lives for four and a half months. And then all of a sudden it's like, hey, oh, we're on this new coin strategy. a counterinsurgency. You guys are going to go out to Navajar. And at that time, I don't even think they had called it VSO yet. Which stands for village stability operations, basically

embedding and living with the local populace. Yes, which is a, you know, the ODA, that's like their bread and butter, you know, and they're fucking good at it too. Oh yeah. They're awesome at it. And we somehow got volunteered to join in that. And, you know, we figured it out as team guys do. I don't think it was volunteered. I think they had. they decided that there was a need for it and there was a discrepancy between what was required and the manning. And so they, I mean, if you look at most special operations, I mean, there used to be, I feel, some very precise legacy tasks. And I guess they still exist. Like, of course, team guys are going to have that maritime aspect. Like, if there's a combat swimmer operation, you're probably better off coming to the seals.

But if you want to see as an airfield, you might want to go to the Rangers, right? And PJCCT, let's go to the Air Force for those guys in their specialty. Of course, there's the ODAs, you know, the buy with and through and built like the fit component, all that stuff. I found as it went on, if you were to give each of them a color on a palette, they all started to creep a little bit more towards the gray. And I think a lot of those people at those senior levels just started looking at soft as soft, which I guess to a degree you kind of could have because they're very good problem solvers. I mean, that's a lot of what the training is. And like you said, we'll figure it out. Yeah, we'll adapt.

But it doesn't mean that we're great at it. Or that we should be doing it. Yeah. And there's going to be a ramp up time period and stand by for some catastrophic mistakes along the way, which is not an excuse for them. But yeah, it became much more gray. So I think, well, you know, I look back at 2010. You know, the kinetic nature had probably peaked over the top a little bit and was coming down. So then people are starting to look about relevancy, budget, deployment cycle.

You know, you don't want to miss out on this because that might mean you miss out on that. That there's a lot of other shit that goes on. That's one of the biggest things I don't know if people understand is the amount of things required. Like, again, if we define our job is at some point crossing the threshold of a door and going through that, the number of things required to actually make that happen. To get to that point. Yeah. It is unbelievable. Oh, yeah.

It takes, I think people don't, it takes a large majority of, you know, the military to get me or you through that door. I mean, it's not just the SEAL team. People are fighting for that opportunity. The Ranger, and I don't mean fighting in a negative way, maybe competition is better, but the Rangers are competing for the target deck that's available at the vanilla level, which is a classified term, everybody. That is glad. We'll get into that.

Same thing at the J-Soc level, too. Like, great friends over at Kagg, right? But you got DMNAC and Kagan, they're going back and forth. Yeah. It's competitive. I mean, it's friendly competition. It is. And when things go over the top, meaning the demand starts to go over the top.

You know, maybe this isn't our mission set, but we're going to take it because we still want to stay engaged and involved. Exactly. Guys want to be on their 16th deployment and 17th deployment, which again brings us back. Maybe, and I have no solutions for this and only questions about my own life, because I do think a lot. But what would I have done if somebody said that to me? I would have given them your number one salute. You know, but at that strategic level, maybe that's our first little, look into the insight where those topics start happening and at a at a you know at a group level or

a command level those conversations they're starting to begin I'm not saying it's the solution but maybe it's at least a step in the right direction and now we're looking at the bigger picture and at the end of the day I don't fucking know either like I don't know what the what the solution is I can tell you what I think it's a big concern of mine it's definitely when we added that pillar on to our nonprofit dealing with the mental health, everybody getting out, and taking care of guys as they transition. And what I'm doing right now, so what I've done is I'll go, like, so I made friends with some seventh group guys, right, they're down near me. I went out, did a, like, a 12-mile ruck one with them, and then afterwards talk to them

about transition and about everything that I've been through. And I can tell you, it had a huge, like, effect on them. I mean, their chief one officer called me the next day, and he was like, dude, you have no idea. the effect that had and not just because like I wasn't some guy coming in like hey guys um you know I was a seal and this is what you know because as you know when you're 10 years in you're like or whatever dude like I but because I decided to put myself through some misery with them because that's one thing we can all share together is we all know how to be miserable together this suck this suck I'm like I'll go suck this up with you guys and such a stupid currency yeah it is but it

works because I'll tell you those guys were like all right this dude came in you know did this miserable ruck run with us and then it gave me the platform they're like I will listen to him you know because he came in and you know proved himself and now I'll listen to this guy and I and that's I think that is definitely part of the solution is to get the word out yeah talk about transition talk about the effects of the job I'm not saying those effects are going to happen yeah I'm not talking not mitigating them. I'm just talking about, hey, when these do happen, when you get out, this is what 90% of the time is going to happen. And this is, and here are the solutions. Like, here's where you can go to get help. Here's the nonprofits that you can go use. Here's

a treatment that I went through that helped. And that's, I think that's definitely part of the solution right now is for guys to be open about what they're dealing with and then share that and then help other guys as they're about to come out. I have only one issue with that. that's people at the tactical level helping other people at the tactical level and it allows and again what you're talking about is beautiful right because I look back in my career I'm like oh how many countless times did I have somebody come talk to me about transition fucking zero right like that didn't happen with me I figured it out on my own I'm not I'm not pissed about that when it comes to my departure but I can honestly say it wasn't the emphasis of the organization that I was serving with I love

seeing the tactical guys taking care of the tactical guys they have the best Again, the same currency, right? But that doesn't change the fucking conversations at the strategic or national level. And I don't know how to make a sweeping impact unless it starts at least being addressed at that level. Yeah. But, you know, at that level, you also have politics involved at that level, which don't make sense. You know, there's decisions that are made that are completely like they're disingenuous decisions. and I think that they have,

and they're not thinking about the guys that are going to be affected, going to, to make that, you know, do the decision that they're making. Yeah. Yeah, they're detached.

Yeah, they're detached from it. They're getting back at the metaphorical table. They're detached from the decisions that they're actually making, execution of. There you go. I was trying to articulate that. What do you think,

how do you think it would be received if they forced guys to go through what you did when you got out? If it was just you were getting ready to get out, but for the last month, you were forced into that some type of pipeline. As far as like a pipeline where you're going to get identified with a counselor. You're going to have a support group identified. You're going to head down and do a trip. Well, if they were going to do it this way, they probably wouldn't send you to Mexico.

They'd have to put up or stand up a facility. Yeah. If they forced the treatment. I suspect a large group of guys would say, like, hey, get out of here. Don't do that. But I also think a large group of guys would have a great. benefit from it. I think so as well. I think that's where the route, where they should be going to, is like, hey, you're a year out. Here's the treatment options that you can have. You will go,

you'll go talk to somebody. You'll go get assessed. You'll get your blood taken, everything. And then, you know, the treatments out of cart that you can go and this will help you out. I mean, at least do that before they get out, you know, and then they can continue on that treatment when they get out but set up that foundation for them before they leave. Well, don't forget taps too. That, you know, that's the apex. That needs to be moved to like the tier one treatment. If I could go.

Taps for everybody listening is, what is the transition assistance program? Yeah. It is, I'm not even going to. I walked out. I was required to be there for two days out of a week. It's a, fuck, how would you describe it? An explanation of the logistics departing? It's a check in the box for the military.

be like, hey, we showed them how to write a resume. That could get them a middle management job at Walmart. They're going to be good to go. Yeah, you want to talk about a system that could be upgraded a little bit? Dude. That's what I'm saying. So take taps, make it a month. Make it the, I don't know. And again, that's that to do that, you know where that conversation has to start. Yeah. At the fucking top to change the bureaucracy of the military to make that emphasis to start shifting some of the focus to the cost. Because what I suspect is, is, is that the government. there will never be a lack of individuals who are willing to step their foot on the line. But do we have to break them to do that?

That to me is the more important question. Can we find a better way to have them go through that journey of being willing to stand for what they believe in, going and standing for what they believe in, and then a healthy transition out of it? I think that's where we're failing catastrophically, the people who are willing to do that. Yeah, and I mean, and you also have to take this in respect to as well. Like, we haven't been in a war for two decades before. Yeah, that's very true. This is a first time for this to happen.

I think the we are, I think this next year or this next following years, we're really going to see some repercussions because you've got to think next, what's, this year is the 20 year anniversary of 9-11. Yeah. So you're going to have a lot of guys that have been signed up at 9-11 to fight the war that stayed in for 20 years who are now getting out. that's going to be a large starting a large number of people. That is true.

They are going to be timing out. Which is why it's very important to do this, to start talking about this, because I don't think we've even seen, we're not even close to the apex of dudes getting out that have been serving in the past two years and to see the repercussions of what happens. I mean, you, you know, as tragic as it is, like we've both experienced friends who have killed, you know, killed themselves over the past year, more than. Statistically higher than pretty much any other cohort. or grew, I mean, I tell people, and I try to be honest about my experiences, you know,

I feel at a deep level of, if you touch war, it'll touch you back. Yep. But it doesn't have to be bad. It can give you, again, I look at my life driving here today. I say it almost every day. I'm like, fuck, this is such a beautiful place to live. I have so much appreciation for the things that are around me. And don't get me wrong, I can be an asshole and lose that appreciation in my moments

where I fall short of myself. But I'll go back to what I said earlier. I think once that optic shifts in your head, it's tough to not use that going forward. Much like critical or critical thinking or logic, once you understand the value of that, you can just apply it to everything else in the rest of your life because why wouldn't you? It's just getting guys to that point to get to that point where they do understand the value of that and really appreciate what they have. I think it's hard for guys when they get out to because they're frustrated.

You know, you just spent two decades of your life. Some guys are in more than, you know, they're in the military more than they've been alive. Yeah. In their life, right? So that is their identity. They get out. Their purpose is gone. Their identity is gone.

Their peers are gone. They probably geographically separate often. Yep. A lot of guys end up isolating too. And this is a huge thing right here, which most guys will not ask for help or, you know, reach out because they are like, I don't deserve it. That person over there does. Which goes back to our origin point of care about the person to your left and right.

Yep. And I don't know how to fix that because, again, that is what makes the community able to do the things that they're asked to do at an incredibly high level. Yeah, it's what's bred into us. Fuck. Have we solved anything? I don't know. I don't think so.

Damn it. Again, I could talk about this stuff all day, but it sucks because I bump my head up against I don't have any solutions or answers. I have more questions than answers every time that I sit down and talk with somebody about this. I don't think we're going to have an answer, but I think we're part of the solution just by talking about it. That's what makes me feel better, you know,

of like, okay, at least this is what I can contribute right now, is I can tell you exactly what I went through or exactly how I'm feeling, and I'll be open and honest about it. Like I don't care, be vulnerable, you know, let that ego go. And that's the other thing that Ibegain does is it, helps you get rid of that ego a little bit. How does it do that?

I've heard a lot of people say that. I'm confused by the mechanism. It's just so confronting that you have to to absorb the lesson. I don't know. Some guys can describe it better than I can. It's just you, it gets rid of the armor that you're like, no,

I'm not going to let you in or I'm not going to talk about this because I don't want to make myself vulnerable. Like, I don't, I don't care. You know, after I was like, dude, I'll tell you everything. Yeah. And I do it for the purpose of helping you. Like, if it's going to help you, then great. What would you tell your kids if they wanted to join the military?

They both, they do. My, so my oldest son right now, he's going to turn 21. He's a junior in college. It's just super intelligent. He does not have any of my genetics. He's got to get a degree in chemistry. He does not need to be in the military, right? He's already self-selecting.

out of, exactly. Like, dude, you need to go take that understanding of the shit you're learning elsewhere because the military is not going to utilize you to the degree you want them to. And that's what I, that's the first thing I told him. I was like, dude, you, why would you take like 10 steps back and go into the military? But he, he's like, I want to serve. Like, I don't. Imagine trying to talk yourself out of it when you were younger.

Exactly. And I won't talk them out of it. I'm like, you know, if that's the decision you want to make, I will fully support you. The only thing I told him is like, if you do make that decision, then I want to go with you and we're going to have a plan. Like, I'm going to call people. We're going to make sure whatever route you want to take in the military is the route that gets done. Yeah. Because as you know, if you don't do that, you can get sent anywhere.

Are you trying to say that recruiters won't tell you the 100% truth? I feel like you're trying to say that they might have a certain allotment of bullets that they need to fill. And they'll say anything or do anything to fill those allotments. This hasn't been my experience. I've never met somebody who was told something by a recruiter that wasn't true. I don't think I've ever heard the recruiter fucked me, ever. It could be the tale, the oldest tale in time when it comes to military service. That used to be the only response.

Like, how'd you end up here? My recruiter fuck me. And then my youngest son wants to be a seal. I mean, he's always, that kid has grown up in the teams. You know, I would take him from when he was a baby all the way, you know, to when I retired into the teams. He'd hang on the team rooms. I mean, that's all he really knows. And that's what he, in his mind, he's like, that's what I'm going to do.

But again, I'm like, that's your decision. And he's only, he's going to be 11. So he's getting to that age where it's like. I knew at that age. Yeah. And but I told him, I was like, dude, you know, it's easier to say it than do it. I was like, so if that's the way you're, that's the choice you want to make, then it's going to be on you.

I'm not going to, you know, be here to motivate you or be like, hey, do this and that. I'm like, you got to do it on your own. I mean, if you make a decision, I will help you, but that's your decision. Not mine. Don't do it just because I was in the military. Yeah, that's definitely the wrong motivation, especially if you want to be a legacy team guy. That's a tough road to hoe. Oh, yeah.

Well, especially if you have my last name. It's slightly recognizable. Yeah, a little bit. Perhaps more than others. By the time he joins, hopefully it'll be, you know, distant. Yeah, I know I ask that more from, you know, now your own understanding of, Again, you know, you touch war, it touches you back. And who knows how long the, what do you even call it at this point, the current conflict?

Yeah, somebody asked me the other day about my thoughts on Biden ending the Forever War. And I was looking at exactly what he said. And he was referencing moving the troops out of Afghanistan. I did a little research in like U.S. Special Operations is in 140 countries. Yeah. So minus one from that, I believe, carry the one is 139. That Forever War, I think, is still ongoing. I don't even know what to call it.

I don't either. When I hear Forever War, you know, the only two places I think, which I think people are talking about is Iraq and Afghanistan. Yeah. And me and you know, like, that's not at all even remotely. There's so many other places where we are in conflict right now, which you don't know about it. Maybe it's better that you don't know about it. So that way you can't sit here and bitching complain at home. And maybe it is forever.

I mean, I don't know. And nor do I really know the level, you know, to me, when I think of warfare, my only lens is the community. So there's Vietnam. A little bit Panama, a couple guys in Grenada, a couple guys in Somalia. But it's those big conflicts. I mean, who knows what the U.S. was doing behind the scenes in between all those massive conflicts as well? Maybe it has been a lot more. I mean, from a sustained, like, U.S. military, I'd say for sure 20.

But, yeah, I don't know. I don't know what to call it. And I don't think that pulling the troops out of Afghanistan ends it in any way, shape, or form. No, it's not ending the war. I do agree with the call. I do, too. That's actually how I answer. Why not treat Afghanistan like?

like these other countries that we have a presence in. Exactly. And you know, they're going to leave the support. And there's a little group of people called contractors that you know we're going to be there. Yeah. It's, I mean. Yeah. It's not like we're pulling out and that's it.

Like, let's see what happens. You know, it's we're going to have eyes on it. We're going to have people there. But I do think pulling the troops out of there. It's like, what are we doing over there? Holding ground. Holding ground. You know, which last I checked as a strategy in Afghanistan,

there was a country that tried it before us and many that tried it before them. didn't feel their way. Well, history teaches us, you know. Well, fortunately, we're fast learners, so. Yeah. I mean, I'm glad. I'm glad that he's pulling the troops out. So back to what I was asking, the reason I asked that is, again, who knows how long it's

going to go, but knowing the impact it had on you, I was wondering if it would change how you would, or if it would make you more concerned about your son wanting to follow down that path, because you know from firsthand experience with that touch in both directions, looks like. Yeah, of course I'll be concerned. I mean, I'll have a natural, my natural parent concerned. I don't want, you know, anything that happened to my child or them to be hurt in anyway, but also.

They have to live their life too. Hey, man, you got to cut that cord and let them go. It's, and that's, I mean, that's the beauty of being a parent, too, is going through that journey with your kids and then cutting that cord. Just okay, like my oldest son, for example, he's been in college three years. Never once have I discussed military with him or like, hey, you thought, you know, that's because I'm not going to. push that on him. He came to me on his own and was like, hey, I want to join. What does he want to do?

He wants to go in the Army. As a chemist? I love this, dude. Is he going to make bio weapons? God damn it, Eddie. There we go. I'm like, go do that for four years, then come back and work for me. I can actually, though, see it from, let me tell you how many chemistry classes I took. The last one I think I took was in 95, probably got an F in high school. But I would imagine if you progress to higher education with that, very heady between the years task. I might want to go shoot a mortar or two as well. Or just run around with the rug. Like actually, now it makes a little bit more sense.

Going into the Army to be a chemist, though, no. Yeah. It's what he's thinking about doing right now. You know, it's like, this is what I, the route. But that again, I'm like, well, let's, if you do make that decision, let's go see. Let's go talk to some people. And then maybe there's a better route. Maybe there's not.

You know, I had a buddy who visited me last week. He came down, a good friend of mine. He's at the command that you were at. And he, you know, my oldest son told him, like, I want to join. He was like, why are you going in the Army? He's like, Air Force. Go be in the Air Force. You know, it's, they have the nicest stuff.

They go, you know, they have the night, you know, the bases. I wish I could say that wasn't true. It's definitely, it definitely is true. That's 100% true. God damn it. Oh, yeah. Just go get food on a Navy base and then go get food. on an army base. That actually may be the best tour that you could do with young kids.

We're just going to visit the chow halls. You guys tell me which food do you like. Yeah. What's your rating here? Yeah. Because I'm going to tell you right now the Air Force is going to be at the top of the heap every time. Oh, dude, I was stationed at, uh, so when we deployed to the Cree in Dubai, we were, was that crisis response element? Crisis response element. I just pulled that shit right out of my hat. So badass. We deployed there, and so we were supposed to deploy to Yemen, my platoon was, and Yemen literally got, they got pulled out of Yemen a week before we deployed. So they had no place for our platoon to go. So they were like, okay, you guys would just go to the Cree,

and we'll figure out what to do with you there. They didn't even have room for us on the base at Sassanak or whatever that place is. So we got stuck on an Air Force base, just my platoon. And GP tents for about a couple weeks until I made, or we made friends with a bunch of the pilots and offered to, like, hey, our J-Tax will give you classes, and then vice versa. And they're like, oh, why are you guys sleeping the tents? They gave us barracks rooms.

And then before we knew it, dude, I mean, it was the best I've ever lived on a deployment. I mean, my Wi-Fi was faster than the States. I had, like, they had like CrossFit gyms, regular gyms with instructors and coaches. I mean, it was crazy. They're living their best life. They are. And I don't hate them for it. I'm like, good on you.

I portion of me hates them for it. I mean, while I was in, I was like, fuck you guys. While you were in a GP tent, you're like, I fucking hate you for this, but I can appreciate it too. Yeah, now I'm like, you guys are, yeah, definitely smart. It's an interesting, interesting journey for sure. It is. How long to take you to write your book? You can swing that thing over if you want to get it's up to you.

There you go. It might chase you down, though. It's, that's what, well, I keep on hitting it in my hand gestures. I thought you were just about to say you were giving it a hand job. I was like, whoa, we are going deep. That's in the next five minutes. Okay. So it probably took me, let's think, I probably started it last April, March or April.

It wasn't too long after we did our podcast. Because you briefly, we touched on the fact that, no, you said it was coming, but then we left it as broad as possible. Yeah, like I hadn't even started on it. It was just like. Oh, I thought you were writing it that time? No, I had made the decision to write the book. And then once, I think around April is when we full on, actually right when quarantine, all that stuff kicked in, which was a blessing. I was like, this is forcing me to, I'm inside.

I might as well just sit there and hammer away at this book. It took me, I was done by like six months, six or seven months. And that's real quick, but it's because I was cooped up in the house. And it just gave me all the time in the world to work on it. That was my main focus. I wasn't really trying to do anything else. I just wanted to get that done. Did you do it sequentially? Like as far as... Chapter 1 through? Or did you kind of just write as you were inspired to write about whatever time period it would be?

I figured out a format for it. So I talked with the publisher and was like, okay, this is what I want to do before. So it sort of starts off with me getting locked up the first day of going to the brig and then going to the cell. and then it's me thinking back to like, how did I get here? And then just, boom, sequentially, getting me back to that point and then forward. Yeah. Your publisher sent me to the manuscript. No way in hell I was getting through that entire thing before we sat down. It was good to be able to look through all the topics and read some of the chapters.

It's, I get hit up about writing a book. It's not in me to do it. I just, and so I was going to ask you, know, for you, I think you probably have, you have the ability to tell your version, whereas I would have the ability to tell stories that, have been told by other people. You know what I mean? Not unique in any stretch. But why did you decide or when did you decide you were actually going to write it?

Not too long after probably right around my retirement. Not too long before the retirement. I was going through a whirlwinded to shit during that time. But, you know, I had talked to my friend Bernie Carrick and a couple other people in there like, listen, because I didn't want to write the book. I was like, and I, this is what made writing the book so hard too. Another factor is, as you know, growing up, it's like quiet professional. I was one of the guys in the teens that was like, dude, fuck writing books.

Like, you shouldn't write a book. And that's still with me. So making the decision to write the book was difficult. But, you know, enough people were like, listen, if you don't write it and tell your side, somebody will come out with a book and it's not going to be your version it's going to be whatever you know they got so I was like all right I'll do it but then you know as I was writing the book I had to deal with that conflict as well I mean I must have called friends all the time like dude and almost quit writing the book a couple times and that was you know my wife is she was

a rock the whole time she's like listen this is for a purpose like you're not just because in my mind I'm And I refuse to write about me, my publisher had disagreements. He's a great guy, but I think he came into it like, oh, you know, another seal book. We'll just slap a trident on it and blah, blah, blah. I'm like. It's a winning recipe. It is. In the modern era, not saying it's a good recipe.

It's a winning recipe. Yeah. And I was definitely a pain in his ass. I was like, nope, I don't want any trident. I don't want it to be, you know, this is about what happened. you know over the past two years and then the main focus of this book is you know the heroes of the story which is my wife and my brother and everybody else who got behind me and like the stuff they did to get me out of you know prison and then to get me through the trial that's that's what

I wanted to focus on in my faith and how that got me through um obviously as I started writing the book my my writer's like hey you got to like give some some perspective you know on some deployments or whatever so I mean I do there's talk about the Missouille deployment for sure to give that you know context for the trial and then I you know I briefly cover a little bit of some deployments before but there's always like a lesson learned if I tell something like this is why I'm telling this but I try to stay away from the whole like you know there I was and this you know blah blah I don't even I think I mentioned buds in one sentence in that

book which you know I'm like I went and was just as cold as wet as every other I went like many other have before me in the 70 plus years they've been doing this training. And for some reason, we were still using the same goddamn tools. Yep. It's pretty simple. And it works. But, you know, it was, I got, you know, that's, I think that was one of the main factors, too, which I was having a hard time right in the book. Just because it went against my principles, the principles that I came up with in the teams.

And I had just to overcome that. And, yeah, I don't know where I was going with that, but what was the hardest chapter for you to write? The hardest one. Probably, I think the hardest one for me to, so to hear or is my kids. Yeah, not necessarily to write, but just to work through, you know, the hardest phase of time in the book. Because, again, there's a lot of chapters in that thing. The trial for sure. like all the trial and then everything that happened before the trial was definitely the hardest for me

because I hadn't unpacked all of the shit that they had done you know just it ended it's crazy it's like you know I did a podcast with Sean Ryan and that thing was like five hours I didn't even cover you know half the stuff because there's so much and that was the difficult was like trying to pack everything in there. But it was hard to go back through that and that's what brought up a lot of the anger. I was pissed. I was, you know, and I had been shoving that thing, you know, all my feelings down, you know, and I had to during the trial and all that. Like, I had to remain stoic and just, like, not show any emotion because that's what I was told by my lawyers, but also, you know, it's, what are you going to do at that point when the media and everything is constantly filming you,

and putting your picture out, like, if I let my emotions get to better me that time, it would have cost me my life. I would have been in the highlight reel. Yeah. So I was just constantly shoving everything down and packing it away. So when I had to unpack all that, that was, yeah, that was super difficult just to be able to deal with those emotions. But again, it's also a blessing, too, because it helped me move forward. That's what I was going to ask you.

Yeah, and that difficulty of unpacking. That's a lot. Yeah. I mean, it's a, fuck. I mean, I don't think there's any way necessarily to describe it. Do you think you're in a better place with it now? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm not fully like, I'm definitely in a better place.

You know, I'll have my days where I'll be on a run or something and I'll just start thinking about it. And I'm like, I can feel myself getting angry about it. But that's the growth is like, I'm aware, like, okay, I'm just. doing this to myself again. Like, there's no reason to get this angry or, you know, you know, let's move past this. So that's, I'm definitely in a better place for sure. It was, I couldn't even talk about it.

You know, even when I came on your show, that was, you know, the first one I did. Dude, I was, I didn't know what the fuck I was doing. I literally was just like. I still don't. So, yeah. You're a step ahead of me. But, like, even be able to describe every, like, I was just like, okay, like, I'm to talk about it.

But now I can, you know, I broke it down to, and I did a lot of thinking over it. I'm just, and it's funny. There's other, you know, obviously there's a podcast out. Apple didn't want to. I was going to ask you about this because you were, I've listened to the episodes and he talked directly to you. Yeah. I actually reached out to, I believe his name is Dan, right?

Dan Tiberski. I reached out to him and I said, I want to have you come on and I want to talk about your experience talking to the guys. I almost don't even care about the story. Yeah. I want to talk about, because he was saying that he talked with about 50 guys. I'm like, okay, that's what I want to talk about. I want to know how you feel after interfacing with them.

If I'm being totally honest, the sound bites, and I have to imagine they have hours upon probably tens of hours, if not hundreds of hours, if they did talk with 50 people, the sound bites that they have chosen, and I'm not saying that the people didn't say these things, but they are not. representing the seal teams and seal individuals in the manner that I would hope that they were. There's some guys on there that sound like fucking idiots. And they make team guys sound like fucking idiots that are non-thinking robots that are just, you know, I'm out hunting and I'm a wolf. And it's like, dude, you are a soldier in a fucking uniform. You're not a wolf. You had a professional job.

And I hope that you can get past that at some point because if you're not in anymore, what are you going to do now? And if you are in right now, maybe go sit down and talk with somebody. And I'm not making any judgment of that individual because I don't know who that individual is. Yeah. But it's not who, in my experience, those weren't the most effective team guys. They weren't the best problem solvers. They weren't the best on target.

Well, and you've got to think this too. So they came to us early on last year, Dan Tiberski and Apple, whatever. And he said he would do it, by the way, but he wanted to do it remotely. So I was just like, listen, man, there's no pressing in time. I want to sit down with somebody like that face to face. Oh, I would. I think it would be a great conversation with him. And it's, and I said that, like I said, it's almost not even about the podcast itself.

I want to talk to him about his interactions with people. What his perception is, what he got out of it. Yeah. That's what I'm more interested in. I'm definitely interested in that too, like thinking, you know, what his thoughts are. But, I mean, I knew when we signed up for this. So they had called us multiple times and we were like, hell no, at first, you know, we don't, you know, obviously. Obviously, Apple, whatever, like, we don't want you putting your own spin on this.

Apple, heard about you once, no other deal. Waiting for a larger media company to get behind this. There's got to be somebody bigger. But they, you know, after talking to them, we finally like, okay, and we took it on just like we did the 60 Minutes interview. We're like, dude, they could make this to be anything. They could sway this one way or the other, but we have nothing to hide. Like, we'll do it. Like, here it is.

We actually are the ones who gave them all the trial transcripts because the Navy refused to get. The Navy refused to talk to them about any of that. So we gave them everything, but what we told them is like, listen, we're entrusting you. Like, here's everything. And, you know, we just want, all we're asking you is do your due diligence. Like, don't just. You're out of your fucking mind. At the end of the day, they have a product to sell.

Yeah. I know. So that's what I was going to get to next with the like sound bites that they're choosing and everything. They're horrendous. I know. Some of them. Yeah. They're making it as dramatic as possible, right?

So they, so the last episode, my brother, dude, that dude never cusses that much ever. You would have thought you were listening to a Quentin Tarantino movie when they were interviewed him. And those are, I mean, they talked to him for six hours. And those are the sound bites they chose. And it's the same with every other guy. I think they interviewed. They're choosing these to call, you know, to make it more dramatic. And yeah, like you said, it doesn't sound, you know, some of these guys, it doesn't

sound make the NSW look at and. Well, I have a huge issue with the wolf, sheep dog, sheep analogy. Yeah. And it drives me nuts because, in my opinion, at least, and I actually went to Lieutenant Colonel Grossman's house and did a podcast with him. I listened to it. And so you have an understanding of how I feel about it. To me, it's reverse.

The sheep are far more dangerous. Like a wolf, like, cool. I'll put a collar on that wolf and keep track. of you and if I need to, like we can handle that. But the sheep, having them be so many and have so much power if they can be manipulated or ebb and flow. If they all decide to follow one person, that's strength right there. And then the sheep dog is, I get the analogy, but it's also the individual that is the most susceptible to being a charlatan to being a fraud standing in front of everybody because you can wear the right clothes and you can say the right things. And you can be

totally full of shit. You know, who pays attention to you? All the sheep. Yep. To me, I'm not concerned with the wolf, and I hate that fucking analogy because it makes it sound so simple. I'm far more concerned about people who accept everything at face value, no critical thinking, no logic.

Oh, for sure. That's the danger to me. I mean, I think we've seen that in the past year. Yeah. But then you have a seal current or, you know, whatever he may be, whatever his military status is, I'm fucking out there hunting. And it's like, God damn it, dude. could you please find a more polished way to talk about it?

Like if you want to feel that way, I'm trying to do my best not to have any judgment of it. Because let me tell you why. If you went back over all the podcasts I've ever done with a little set of editing snippets, holy shit, you could have some stuff coming out of my mouth as well. So I get it. But I'm also very cautious when I say things like that because I feel the burden of, I remember where I came from. And like I said, I wouldn't be the person that I am today if it wasn't those experiences.

And I feel that burden. and I want to portray it in the best light. That's, well, it's like we talked about the first podcast is the weight on your shoulders. You're still representing the community, even though you're out. Whether you want to or not. You will always be known as Navy SEAL, Andy Stumpf. I've always been known as Navy SEAL. I was talking about this to somebody the other day.

I was like, dude, it doesn't matter. Like, you will always be presented as SEAL. Within the first paragraph, if not the first sentence. And I was like, it doesn't matter what you do after you get out. I mean, you look at Kim, astronaut, you know, doctor, PhD. Anything that's written about him, it's Navy SEAL astronaut doctor. Yeah. That gets put in front of it.

Com up for underachiever. Yeah. Do better. That guy makes me feel like shit. Oh, dude, I don't. I just like to think he has no life. God. Probably has just, yeah, he's probably like the unicorn of like the perfect person.

I know. I'm like that guy, I mean, what he's done is awesome. Yeah, I listen to, and that's why I reached out to Dan. I really wanted to sit down and just talk about the back and forth, the questions that you're at. You know, like, hey, man, like, what's your overall, you've talked to 50, which, by the way, is still a small sample size in comparative. Oh, big time. And then maybe he could get a hold of some of the older UDT. And then, of course, they are targeting that series around what happened with you.

So less likely that they're going to talk to the older UDT or the Vietnam era. You know what I mean? There's a huge spectrum of people that he could talk to. And I actually think, because I know people through that spectrum, it's a wildly different and evolving community. It's not the same as it was. Oh, yeah. Generationalally, you can go back, you know, every 10 years, the community is going to be different generationally. And light speed, light speed and light years ahead of, I think, where it was that generation before.

From a tactics, from a weapon perspective, from manning. Even, I mean, obviously there's weeds in every lawn, but even from the individuals and their capabilities. level. You know, I feel like they continue to level up forward and hopefully I'll have a chance to sit down with it. I hope so. I think that would be an awesome podcast is, you know, just to be able to hear his perspective after talking to these guys. You know, it's the podcast after listening to the first three episodes is exactly how I thought it was going to come out. I'm just like, okay, you know, they're dramatizing it and making it and like. And I don't blame them. And for clarity, I don't blame them for doing that because that's what they signed up to do. And I hope that was at least that we

honest, they were honest with people about what they were trying to do. But I also hope people can intuitively understand there's a difference between an edited and produced 40 to 50 minute piece and you and I sitting down and talking until we get fucking tired of talking with each other. Yeah. There's a huge difference because as of so far on this will be the 178th episode, I have edited zero. Yeah, which is awesome.

It's just straight through. Like me saying dumb shit. Oh, it's in there. Other people saying dumb shit, it's in there. It's the most honest thing you can do. Like there's no, you're not hiding anything. Well, it's a different product. Yeah.

It's a different experience. And I hope people can tell that you can really cherry pick when it comes to those things. Oh, well, that's what the media does. Yeah. It's, I mean, the mainstream media, that's all it is, is just cherry picking comments and then gaslighting the other side. You know, oh, look what they did here. And you're like, all right, dude. Like, give it a rest.

I can barely, I can barely tolerate either turning the, the, uh, channel to either side of the aisle or clicking on the app to either side of the aisle. I don't. I have a hard. Yeah. I mean, but then I feel like, well, shit, don't I have some obligation to at least stay slightly informed? Like, did the aliens land?

I'm checking in like once a week. I'm like, are they here yet? No. Okay. We're still just doing with the sightings. I'll wait for Joe Rogan to come out and tell me. Fuck. He probably would be the first person to tell him.

He's on that fucking case. Oh, I know. Yeah. He's all over it. Yeah. I mean, that's, I gave up watching the media. you know, a long, I mean, that was a long time ago, but now for sure, I just, I think it's just a dangerous weapon in our country that's being used and it's there to divide us.

It's an interesting description of that medium as a weapon because it's certainly, it's targeted. Fuck, I don't want to get into the definition of what the truth is because depending on who you ask, it might get a different answer. But it has a desired end state. And it's almost palpable at this point. I work, but I worry that people don't, they can't feel that, you know. again, no judgment, but I can almost physically feel the messaging that they're trying to get across. And I don't know where that leads either. I don't either because I think, like you said, you can feel it, you can see it. Your eyes are open.

You're like, I know exactly what they're trying to do here, but the problem is the sheep. They're not, their eyes aren't open. They're not seeing it. So they're like, whatever CNN or whatever Fox puts out is like, that's God talking to you. And they're like, this is, this is what's going on. When in reality, it's like all they're trying to do is get you to hate the other side in some form or fashion. And it's like, dude, when did we stop at what point do we stop being able to agree to disagree?

You know, it's. It seems like rather relatively recently. Yeah, I think what's gotten a lot worse recently for a lifetime, I would say. Yeah, like I don't understand where this like, just because I don't agree with you on some things, It doesn't mean we can't be like friends, but it's to a point now where it's like, oh, you know, you're for this. Well, then fuck you, you know, like you're on the other side. And it's like, what side are you talking about?

I thought we're all, we all live in America. Yeah. I mean, my neighbor where I live now, he's a Biden support, you know. It was funny. We, uh, during the elections, you know, we had a Trump sign out in front of our lawn. And then he came out, put the Biden sign out. And we were just laughing like, and I have like awesome conversations with that guy. We have cigars and whiskey every once in a while.

And we talk about. you know, the different topics. And we do come, you know, there's stuff that we don't agree on. But guess what? You leave his neighbors. We're still buddies. Yeah. Weird.

Like, I don't hate him. There's very few people I actually hate. But I will say this. The ones I do, I fucking hate. Well, that's where I'm at. I'm like, dude, if I hate you, it's, yeah. You know what I've found, though? Most of the people that I hate, I'm not even a blip on their radar.

It's me carrying that bullshit. Yeah. I've tried. present tense I'm trying to continue to let go of a lot of those things because like I just said the hatred that I carry most of the time it's they don't even realize that I'm like if they did they probably would say dude I'm fucking sorry like I didn't mean to do that and I'm sure people feel that way I mean trust me I'm not a fucking perfect human being um but yeah I don't I don't well I can't say never intentionally fuck somebody over but

But what I will say is I hope that I haven't done anything to anybody who's still harboring it now because that certainly wasn't my intention. I'm just an imperfect person. And I'm trying my best to grow as a human being my 40s, Eddie. Well, adulting. That's trying. I'm trying. Well, so am I. Believe me.

It's a struggle. But, and I would say, like, you know, yeah, letting go of hate is the best thing to do, but it is a difficult thing. Especially if the person that you dislike is still doing stuff and you're like, bro, like, you're, like, you're. trying to let it go. Yeah. Come on, man. It's going to say, where do you land on your feelings towards the people that were testifying against you?

Uh. Because that's got to be a journey as well. Oh, dude. Yeah. I mean, that's, I'm still dealing with that stuff. But, like, I don't, I'm trying to think of them. I'm fucking pissed at them. Like, if I think about all the stuff that they did, yes.

I mean, I'm naturally just like, but I honestly, like, they did what they did they're going to they're going to have to live with their consequences and this is you know i get asked that too like oh what will you do if you see one of those guys or whatever and i'm like there's nothing more i can do to those guys that they haven't done to themselves i'm like they went to trial lied on the stand got caught lying on the stand i mean blatantly and then now they have to live with that the rest of their lives like i didn't put them in that position they made that choice i mean i can't imagine what what that feels like um so i was like there's nothing more than I can do to them.

You know, they're, it's, I'm sure it's weighing on them big time. And I hope they get help for it. I mean, that's, I do,

like, I don't want them to, you know, I don't want anything bad to happen to them. Don't lie to me. By, by anybody else's hands. Yeah,

it's, no, it is. That's one of the toughest things I've ever put down. Yeah, it's, uh, I still deal with it.

Um, you know, as, but as far, like, This is what's hard to deal with, man, is the, obviously I still have, you know, guys from the community still call me. I still talk to plenty of people. I mean, even still to this day, you know, they have Rosenblum, who is the common order on my thing, and Craig Miller, who is one of the, they're going, dude, they're teaching ethics and morality to all the LPL courses as we speak, and they have a whole day on just bashing me.

So guys will call me from going to that course and be like, dude, they literally just spend the whole day. like he's guilty he was guilty he got away with it and that's where it's hard for me to be like dude like let it go you know i it's but it's hard for me to as they continue to do this for me to let it go as well you know it's like oh okay and that's been a struggle um i'm getting there yeah you know it's it's not as you know bad anymore you know i i definitely not like what the fuck uh but you know it's one of those things i just got to work on and deal with that's what I think is the most difficult thing for me right now. Was the book a chance for you to get the record out there straight for you as well?

I mean, I'm assuming it's, you're talking about, so the trial was interesting, right? And this is actually how you and I first linked up because I think somebody asked me a question about it. I was like, I don't fucking know, you know. Yeah, I wasn't there. I wasn't there. I can't say anything about it. The trial, it seems like a lot of the details were, I don't know if guarded is the, right word because again, I mean, I was living here while you were going through that. So it's not

like I was in the courthouse near the courthouse proximal to it at all. But it sounds like the book is your opportunity to shed some more light onto what happened behind those closed doors. Like you're saying, the transcripts that the military would not release. And that's, to me, I mean, I can't be the person that says that's wrong or right, but I'm always hesitant when somebody says, no, you can't see the raw data. To me, that's not generally something that occurs if you have a desire to be transparent, you know, or you're concerned about how it might be portrayed. So, yeah. I mean, was the book that for you?

Yeah. The book was, you know, chance to tell my family side of what happened, give all the details that went on. And I understand that, you know, that's my side of the story. That it's a biased side. But what I did, and this was funny is like halfway through writing the book, I remember having conversations with my wife. And I was like, no one's going to believe this.

No one's like, this shit is. so crazy, like they're going to think I'm making this up. And so I decided at that point, I talked to my publisher, we're putting in, so each chapter, there's QR codes in the book, and you can go ahead and look at it. You yourself can see all the NCIS interviews, full on, not edited, the trial transcript, you know, everything that we could physically put in there and show that we were like, here it is, we put in there. So I wrote the book. Obviously, it's my side, wrote it in a way at the end it's like you can make your own decision yeah what you think happened you know i didn't there's no fluff in here it's like boom boom you know beginning to end

here's everything that happened but there is so many details that were not put out that you the term guarded is is right because it was guarded by the navy like they don't want those details to get out because it was obvious these dudes were lying um you know it it was a clown It was an embarrassment, dude. It was one massive embarrassment for the Navy, which I get why they're, like, trying to block it from getting out. But the thing is, it happened. And it needs to be told.

Like, so this mistake doesn't happen again. And that's another reason for the book. Like, they should take it as an afteraction. Like, hey, these are all the things that happened that were messed up. And you shouldn't be, like, let's not do this to somebody else. You know, let's get people to due process. Ask the right questions beforehand. Yeah.

People asked me after our first podcast. I think they thought that you and I had known each other. I'm like, no, I opened a hotel room door. I'm like, hey, what's up? I'm Andy. You're like, hello, I'm Eddie. Boom. Put the headphones on and go.

And then I was trying to video it and like the video shut off. That's why they're saying, I'm like, oh, God, we got red lights. Yeah. Different cameras. I could totally master this one. And people, people ask me all the time. What do you think happened? And my answer to this day is like, it's, I don't know.

I wasn't there. I've had some of the, I think it was one or two of the people that accused you reached out to me over social media. And I think their initial, I'm speaking for them slightly, I think. But they basically said, hey, you don't have all the story. And I said to them, I'm like, listen, you can, if you want to come on and talk about your side of the story, I will allow you the opportunity to do that. And I'll talk with you in the same way that I did with Eddie, because I'm actually not sitting here today with you to try to figure out this is what happened in this order. And this person was a liar. Like people need to make up their decision for themselves, you know.

Which, yeah, they can. And that's, I mean, that's another reason I wrote the book is, hey, here's my side. And if those guys, I mean, this is the problem with those days because they, you know, obviously I've had to deal with them a little bit in the past year with. I was curious if you had any interactions with them at all post. Not not face to face directly. It's always through some other, you know, somebody else calling me and like, hey, and they're trying to like put a kibosh on this or try to stop you from this.

And I'm like, hey, nothing's stopping you guys from go ahead. But this is the problem, though, for them is you had two years to tell your side. And then guess what? We went to a court martial where you got to persecute me and tell your side in front of a jury, which I had nothing to do with. And that jury found out or found that I was innocent and that you were lying. So I don't know where else, like, what else do I have to do to be like, Like, this is, you know, what happened to the truth. I get it.

It got so screwed up because of the media. Yeah. And, you know, the president's involvement and just became like this huge show. But the truth's in that mess somewhere. Yeah. And this is my side. And here it is. Yeah.

And I think that you can navigate through the bullshit by sitting down and having conversations, which is why, you know, I don't even remember their names, to be honest. But I'm like, listen, like, if you want to sit down and talk, like, we can sit down and talk. But in sitting down and talking, though, there's questions. You know what I mean? There's difficult questions. You have to answer difficult questions. Just like I've had to answer, you know, it's not, I went, I'll tell you the hardest thing I did was, interview was 60 minutes.

Those guys came in, they came to my house, and, I mean, they had done their homework, and it was like a three-hour interrogation under a light, and they were definitely not, it was not comfortable. They were targeted in their approach? they came in with a definite bias you could like feel it it was palpable but by the end they spent two days with us and they literally told me they were like you guys are nothing like we thought and I'm like what that's the problem with the media I'm like you guys are getting like all your information about me through all these sources I'm like but you just spent two days with me I was like I'm not my kids are running it's not a perfect house where but this is us you know and I think that you know they ended up doing a good they put out a good interview

And they got attacked for it. Yeah. It's political, too. I mean, there's that divide because the president was, you know, involved and helped me out. There's all that automatic divide that you'll never be able to cross that barrier. Well, you're going to be, you'll be dealing with this for the rest of your life. Yeah. I mean, I wish I could not say that to you.

Oh, that's the truth. It is. Because, again, you'll be Navy SEAL Eddie Gallagher, and then there's going to be an asterisk. I have an asterix. My is just, you know, idiot versus, you know, very in the public specter. What is it, the wine connoisseur for you? Somalié. Somalié, there you go.

Also known as a wine connoisseur. That's tough, man. Again, I think that the more you can talk, the more you can sit down, the more you can unpack stuff and have conversations, that's where you get to the truth. It's not in sound bites. No. It's not in short conversations. And it's certainly not from withholding information.

And that's, so that's the thing. So I had a seal future foundation every two weeks, well, especially during the quarantine, they did a video chat with a bunch of guys that they wanted to get on for an hour. And usually one guy would go through, like, his transition or just what he's going through. And, you know, it depended. There would probably be 20 seals on there listening in. It was a good way. It was, it's a good thing.

It's guys getting knowledge on how to, you know, get fixed or just going back. The tactical guys helping the tactical guys. Exactly. So they asked me like, hey, do you want to like talk, give a talk? Because, you know, I was out and this is in the midst of me writing the book. And they were like, just tell your side to team guys. And I was like, yes. That was like the only thing I wanted to do at the time. I was like, dude, I just want to talk to the guys and give them my side of the story. They're like, okay, they sent out the email. And like, hey, Eddie will be talking next session. The Johnny Wilson, who was the head of Steel Future Foundation, called me two days later and was like, like bro I'm now feeling what you're you're going through and I was like why he's like I literally just got called from the command from you know high up seals telling me not to give do not let him talk do not give him a voice do not you know and he was like why you're like just don't like it's so I was like dude if they're it's cancel culture you know it's that's not how you that's not so if you think somebody's ideas or their speech is bad that's not how you do it yeah

You actually breed into the light so it can be exposed and dissected and digested and, you know, further investigating. You don't just cut it off and not give people the opportunity to speak. Yeah, exactly. He ended up letting me speak. It had to be done sort of back doors because I told him. I was like, dude, I don't want to put your foundation in jeopardy. Just go ahead and forget about it. He was like, no, no, no, I want you to talk to some guys.

So I ended up telling the side of the story to like 15, 20 guys. And I had guys message me from that They were like, dude, I was completely against you From what was being told to us And now after hearing you, like, I'm sorry this happened to you, you know? And that's, you know, that was that was the purpose of it Is to like here's my side to make your decision like what what the command or whoever's telling you And then you can hear my side of the story and then critically think like which one makes sense or what's going on

But deal. that's the frustrating thing of what I have to deal with the rest of the time is because it's not black and white. You know, there's no, like you said, people are still asking like, what do you think? They ask me all the time. Yeah. I'll get a ton of messages after this goes live next Monday. They'll be like, oh, what do you think? You sat across from face to face.

Like, what happened? I'm like, what? Like, yeah, you're not going to know. I mean, I put what happened exactly, you know, exactly what happened in the book. It's the final chapter in the book. It was like, this is everything that happened that day. What are your thoughts on the careers continuing for the people who accuse you? Oh, I think that's also very frustrating that they're allowed to continue in the Navy or in the NSW.

And some of them even got promoted, you know, for testifying against me. I think it's a it doesn't leave a good standard. for the rest of the people because obviously everybody saw what happened and then to let these guys continue and to lead other men after what happened it just sets a bad example it's like a bad example and it's a double standard almost you know I get no I don't get I don't get it I don't get why they're still in um why they're still going forward you know especially the guys were in the pictures um not that I want like there's some of the guys I don't want anybody to be really, from the beginning, I didn't want anybody to be punished like that. I was like, hey,

this is all one big mess. Let's just get this over with. But for them to selectively, they selectively punished anybody that came and testified for me, but then if you were testifying against me, they rewarded you. And that's, I mean, that's the way I'm, I don't know, I don't see how any way you can look at it. And I've tried to look at it objectively and be like, okay, maybe they're making these decisions for a purpose. It's, it's literally like they punished anybody they they set out to be against me from the get-go i mean they put all their their chips and what these guys were saying their first initial accusations and whatever they told they're like all right let's go after them then i think once evidence started

coming out or stuff started coming out like hey maybe this isn't making sense maybe what these guys are saying isn't true they just doubled down and they were like nope just keep going um we're already on this road and they're sort of using the never quit attitude in a different light but it is what it is man I mean do you ever encounter people in your day-to-day life who recognize you and believe the worst things about you because of what they've heard no I would never know if I did no one has ever come up to me and said anything to me negative at all I've had nothing but like positive stuff have I mean I have people come up every once in a while and they'll recognize me but everybody's very supportive um

And, yeah, I mean, the people that are, you know, the most things like you saw last time I was on, it's just the negative comments, which I don't read. It's like, whatever. That's your, that's like your opinion, man. Don't be pussy. Get in there. Be a man, read the comments. Start with the YouTube once. Get deep.

Strap yourself into the chair and just clockwork orange your eyes open. Make a night of it. Don't do it. No. I was doing it. You know, I think it's human nature. You're just like, what the fuck? And yeah.

That separation of. of a keyboard of any kind and their ability to say things that you know. And I know that because I feel it in myself. I'm like, wow, I just wanted to escalate that really quickly. I'm just going to go ahead and put this phone away for right now. Yeah. It's not how I would behave in person. It's not how I'm going to behave on. It amazes me just to think, like I think of those people's headspace.

Like, what, where do you find the time to just like go after somebody? Like I had, you know, we had some sort of with you like, every once in a while. I had a bunch of negative comments, but it's like you had to take the time at your day to go on my profile, look up my name. Very actively, yeah. Actively, like, and then start putting down whatever thoughts you have on the matter and, you know, they're negative. I'm like, don't you have anything better to do, you know, but. Some people do not, actually. No, and that's, that's what also amazes me is, like, the way people spend their time and it's, I think they should do a study on it in about 10 years after this whole social media thing. Hopefully, I don't know if it's

going to keep going or dissipate. Where does it keep going in 10 years? Yeah. Very different realities, depending on how it ends up going, the social media experiment, if you do. Fuck, it is. Like I said, I find myself trapped in it sometimes too, and it's just I got to put it down. I got to put it away. My rule is I don't say anything online that I wouldn't say in front of somebody's face. Exactly. Which is a tough one to hold sometimes, if I'm being honest. But I think. think like we we responded to one or two comments you know and that was we had a turn last christmas it was a wife of a team guy that was over at her house or hung on my wife at bible study she posted on one of my wife's accounts like well you're an embarrassment it was after the sean

ryan podcast like you're embarrassing the community and she like went after andria like how dare you blah blah like just out of the blue you know and had no and it's like you know and Andrea just snapshoted it and then posted it and was like we don't you know I forget what she said something real intelligent I don't know what she does most of the as they do yeah but I mean that's other than that we don't yeah we don't respond I mean that was definitely one of the things we're like okay you want to sound off it's tough and if they catch you responding a couple times they know that there's that interaction. They got you.

They're occupying your time at the very least. It's almost better to say nothing, because I think if you show that front of just absorbing without any response, it'll eventually wane and they'll just target their machine gun of fucking hatred and anger towards somebody else, which is amazing. They have like this unlimited magazine capacity or this belt-fed anger and hate. It's like, what is that, an 800-round box you got there? It just never ends. No.

It's because they're miserable most of the time, I think. They're just miserable people that want to make everybody else miserable. I think there is a lot of that. Yeah, especially now. Everybody's been cooped up for over a year. Yeah. You know, it is what it is, man. I don't let it get to me anymore.

That's another thing about the growth. It's like, great, man. Like, that's, you know, Big Lubowski. Like, that's like your opinion, man. It's like, sweet. Whatever your opinion is, man. God, that's such a great movie. It is.

I've got a beverage here. What was he drinking white Russians? God damn. Over the fucking line. When does the book come out? So we're shooting for June 15th. Okay. Yep.

So we just got it back the other day from DOD. We're going to go to print this next week. And then I have to go do the audiobook. Are you going to read it yourself? I've heard that's not really like getting a comfortable massage. That's going to be more like having a small hammer on your forehead. Oh, exactly. It's so funny.

my wife is so like she's nervous about it because uh i we know i had to read the book a bunch as we my wife and i edited through it and believe me there was a lot of revisions to the book as if i would have given out the first or after the book it would it would have sounded just like you know one of those guys on the podcast like fucking i was you know angry when i was right i'm like but that's good to work through that right yeah so i kept on revising it and then as my emotions gab but i was like nope take this out that's you know don't put that in there um but i'm as i'm reading it to Andrea, she's like, you are so monotone when you read. There's no, what do you call it?

Infliction. Infliction and anything. But I figure, you know, I can fake it for the week. I got to do it. I'll put on the, yeah. I'm thinking it to do it in a week. I'm guessing two at a minimum. Bet.

I guess it's a sound booth with just your manual in front of you and just boom. Yeah. And they, they, I heard it like, yeah, if you mess up, start over again. But I have, so the book, there's a chapter. Like a lot of people, other people have chapters as well. So Andrea has chapters. I was going to ask if she was going to narrate any. Yeah.

So she's going to narrate her. I want everybody to narrate their own chapters. So my, I have two, three people from my legal team have chapters in there, my brother. And then there are some team guys that are still in that have chapters, but they're in, you know. Probably not available. Yeah. And, you know, I don't, I understand. So I'll probably read theirs.

But there's a guy from the brig that I was in the brig with. who gave his perspective on what he saw, how they were treating me. Like he was a guard at the brig? No, he was in the brig. He was in the brig. What do he do? What did he?

He was in a biker, like a actual biker gang, and that's against Navy standards to be in a gang. Yes, it is. Yep. So they NCIS raided his house, front kicked him out of the door at gunpoint and put him in prison. And he was in there with me for four months. Oh, wow.

Before trial and then got found innocent at trial. Let out, but hey, you know, it's like, dude, what they do to some people's lives is pretty crazy, which is why we started the Pipeater Foundation, too, which is going real well. Yeah, what do you guys, what is your, I mean, we talked about it briefly because you were just starting it actually when we first sat down. We hadn't even had it approved when you and I sat down. Yeah, so what's your vision for that? So basically right now, it's to help first responders, law enforcement, and active duty service members if they are being accused of something and they want legal help or advocacy. We also raise money for their legal funds.

We do not provide lawyers. That's more like you've got to get your own lawyer. We have a list of lawyers that we know are good dues that we can give you, but we're not going to tell you which lawyer you can have, but we will provide legal fees or pay your legal fees and then also our emergency relief funds for the family as are going through that stressful time, like whatever they need. That's the purpose right now. And then like I said, we're adding on the pillar of helping guys with the mental stress and just the mental toll it takes on you. much like coming out of the military in transition, going through something like that causes a toll as well. You're going to pay the price for the amount of stress that has. So we will help out in that manner, too, and give them direction on where to go to get help.

So, yeah, that's the key of it right now. And we've obviously this last year was pretty difficult to raise money, but we, you know, we did it where we could. And we helped out probably three seals. And then... Who were accused? Who were accused? And then so we just, you know, help them pay for their legal funds. And then...

At a broad level without getting into details. How did it go for those three? So those three, one, I don't think went, nothing happened. And then the other two were already in the midst of being found guilty. They went through this same system, which there's, you know, nothing we can do at that point, accept like, hey, what do you need help with? And because they had been, you know, I think their punishments were busted down, half paid taken away, and then being booted out at 16 years. It's like... Probably with an other than honorable at best.

Yep. So you're setting that person up for failure right off the bat. And this is, this is the other pillar that we're having to is like the over punishment that goes on within the military. what we're seeing is you know you guys mess up because people do okay the you're punished on like three different levels so you okay so uh Aaron Howard we're helping him out and he's we actually just had him on the podcast what does that name ring a bill he was from the command um he got accused of catfishing I think he's reached out to me damn it I was trying to have him on the podcast and I think somehow we uh he'd be a good one to have on okay i definitely recommend having him on he uh i knew that name rang a bell yeah so he um was accused of catfishing they we need to talk about what

catfishing is because i'm actually not 100% clear i'm not either what what i got so this is what no this is i think what it is is you impersonate somebody else to get somebody to send you nude pictures or um you know kind of fucking world do we live in it oh dude i too i And that's why you and I, that's why we have no clue. We're like catfish it is. We're like, what? Yeah. But that's what he was accused of.

He went through this two years of just like, you know, being at that command, but they would not. The command pretty much turned on him and were like, you're done. He ended up going to court martial, got found innocent of all of it, but they charged him with the same charge. They charged me with it, which is like the conduct I'm becoming just for showing up at the court martial. and he got sentenced to a month in the brig. He got out of the brig and the command took admin septum like that. So he doesn't have any of his medical benefits, doesn't have any. I mean, he'd been in at 16 years at that point.

They just kicked him out with nothing. So this is where we stepped in. And we're like, hey, that's fucked up. Like, this is a human being who has a family and kids, you know, no matter what you think of him as an operator or whatever else like put that aside like this dude has to carry on with his life and what you're setting him up for right now is putting a gun in his mouth and ending it because he's getting out with nothing you know and that's where we step in and we're like okay we're going to raise money for you i think he's got his stuff on appeal right now

trying to appeal some of it but it's you know his case had already gone down that path um before we step in and help out with like advocating. But we're doing what we can now to help them out. And that's... Is there a chapter in your book that explains the difference between the military court system and the civilian court system? Yeah, I think that's why I had my lawyers. I was going to say, because that's actually, and I'm not an expert on it at all, but I know

that there are massive differences between the two. And it's important to understand them in the context of the military punishment, what can be done, what can't be done, how it is viewed. And like I said, I'm not an expert on it, but if they're not an expert on it, but there's a chapter like that in the book. I think that would be really helpful for people to read just to get an understanding of the UCMJ system. Yeah. And I think, well, that's why my brother started the Pipe-Pitter podcast as well,

because that's our main thing is to get UCMJ reform. So they'll go over that, like the differences between civilian and the military justice system, where the cons are like the stuff in the military justice system that should be reformed, that is, you know, wrong. but it's because it's such an archaic system, they haven't figured it out how to like make it fair, I guess, in a way. The way it's built is just you're setting the person up for failure that's getting charged. It's because everybody that's either defending you or charging you, the judge, they all work for each other.

So you're not getting a fair trial. Like the defender is possibly going to work for the prosecution next time. And they're all officers. So they don't want a bad eval. So, you know, during my case, my JAG was nervous about calling the prosecution out for spying and doing all this up because he's like, oh, well, let's not do this. And I was like, dude, fuck that.

I don't care what goes on your next e-bell. Like, this is my life. But that's the problem with the system is it's not perfect. And I mean, no system is, but it definitely can be fixed. And I don't know the answer to it either. Like I know some people are like, oh, put civilians in there. But I don't think that's the answer either. I couldn't imagine having a civilian jury on my trial

that has never been to combat before. That would be a layer of complexity for sure. You would have to probably spend a lot of time doing your best that you could or your legal team to try to educate them on that and then it's still what I think would be largely lost. It would, yeah, and that's why I don't think that's the answer. But there has to be some reform done.

And I don't know what the answer is either, man. I'm not going to sit here and tell you like, this is what needs to be done. I just know that something, thing does need to be done. There's enough people getting screwed over and then their lives are ruined just because you make a simple mistake in the military and then it's like, yeah, not only we're kicking you out, we're fucking you up for the rest of your life. Which is, that needs to change. Yeah. Yeah, that's rough. But it's, you know, it's going good.

We're helping, you know, especially we're helping law enforcement too, especially this past year. It's been huge. So, you know, we've, we've had a lot of law enforcement people reach out and So what we do is we have people reach out for grants. Once, I think we're moved to twice a month now, our board convenes, and we go over each one, and we were very diligent about digging in. We have the people who fill out the grants and give us as much information as possible. And then, you know, if it's very vague, we're like, hey, we need more information than this if we're going to, you know. Yeah, for sure.

Dive in. You don't want to get attached to something that ends up being a shit cause. Yeah, which is another, like for the seals that we helped out. was I was like, now you guys make the determination because I'm already going to have a bike. I want to help them. Yeah. Well, the best thing you probably could have done to help them would step back and let others make the decision. Just from the optic alone, right?

I mean, it's just that would be more precise for them or more clear for them. Yeah. But yeah, it's going good. We, you know, we just raised, it's like $18,000 for Aaron Howard and his family. So, I mean, that was, that was huge. Yeah. And that's what, I mean, it was, it's funny when I got out. I was like trying to find a purpose.

And that is huge. That's a huge purpose for me, you know, is to help guys out. It's still, you know, serving our community in some fashion. Yeah, very much so. And speaking about your experiences or the things that you went through for your own personal growth. Yeah. So through that journey of growth, which it sounds like you've been on, shit, started it not long after you and I sat down for that podcast, whether you wanted to or not. A little bit of it was crashing down on.

you're like, ha. Yeah. Have you, I mean, I think I asked you this at the end of the last, the first podcast we did about if you, what would you have changed, if anything? And looking back now, some more time, more understanding of yourself. What would you have, what would you have changed about the experience or not, that's not the correct way to phrase? I think I know.

What would you have changed about you or your actions or where you were in that leadership position? That's a better way to say. Yeah. there you go um so as a whole with the whole experience i would not have changed anything as far as going through what i went through that happened for a reason and it's bigger than me and you know god thrust that on us and we're trying to make the best of it so i wouldn't change that but as far as personally myself as a leader um i would have definitely been more aware of um this is what emotional

intelligence comes in is like being sympathetic to the other guys a little bit, you know, hearing their complaints out to a certain point. Yeah. All right. Like, I think, you know, their complaints at the time, I could have dealt with them better. I still would have had the same outcome, same answer, like, suck the fuck up or we're going out. But to be able to deal with it, not just say that, like, explain it in a more articulate and softer manner. But even saying that, you still have to have boundaries because the expectation for the Battlespace commander is that you're going to go and exit mission in front of you.

Yeah, exactly. So I definitely would have changed the way I would have presented the, like, hey, this is why we're going out every day. Communicated a little bit more for sure on what the objective was, why we were going out. I definitely ended up assuming that everybody knew why we were going out every day, why we were doing this. And, you know, when you assume it makes an ass out of you and me. Often. Yeah. In my own personal experience. Yeah. So, like, that's, you know, that's one of the things. And I mean, I get asked, like, you know, would you have changed things differently with a tactically or, like, being as aggressive? No, that's, I wouldn't have. You know, you talk to, like, the other guys in my platoon, to not the accusers, which I think everybody's so focused on these four dudes. There's 16 other dudes. And I'm telling you what, like they, I've gotten reached out to since I've gotten out by them. Because I wasn't able to talk to. them the whole time I was in. I mean, they are like, I'm grateful for you making, you making us go out every day, you making us do this. I gave me the experience I needed to move forward in this career. That's what, you know, fulfilled me. Also, help me out when I was going through this

past year. And then I think that's, that's all I would have, I mean, I definitely just, my emotional intelligence, I wish it would have been a little bit better during that time for Sure. And that I, well, I'm not an expert, but I think that's a change that the community could make at maybe even the, well, probably be better just to start earlier on. But certainly the leadership to make that a little bit more of a focus as well to you. Right. You could change, especially as the generations move through the community and you have the blending of, I don't know, the old guard and the new guard, however you want to phrase it. You know what I mean? It would help, I think, a little bit with that, with that jelling. I don't know. I mean, Yeah, I know. I come to a loss of words trying to describe how difficult it can be. I mean, I sit back and I wonder, you know, does the community, does the community need to change? Should we change the training? I mean, what are your thoughts looking back?

Do we need to change the training because of new generations of people coming in? Is the training sound because it stood the test of time? Or by changing the training, though, I mean, all you can do is lower the standard. Maybe. I mean, if you add that, if we're talking about buds. Yeah, but you could add some, you know, emotional intelligence stuff in there and not necessarily lower the standard. Or maybe it's at the tail end, right? We know when you guys, or maybe it's an SQT or something where you can make a leader, you know, the LPO to chief to fill in the blank.

You could make it that more of an emphasis. Yeah. Like I said, bridge those gaps. But, I mean, I feel largely detached from the community now because I've been out for almost eight years. And I'm, you know, I'm curious. What's it going to look like in 10 years, and 15 years and 20 years? What changes are they going to have to make to accomplish? to accommodate for the changes in people.

Yeah. I mean, that's, yeah, the, like, but. Because I'll hear the thing, millennials, like, hear this all the time. I know some millennials who are some of the most selfless motherfuckers. I've ever met my life. Courageous defines the word of, I'm like, holy shit, I wasn't going to do that. You know? And then there are others that live up to every ounce of the negative connotation of the term as well, too.

They are entitled. They're of the known universe. They sit in the center. and you know fuck how do you manage both yeah and that's I mean that was where that was a difficult position I was in as the opportunity like I had both

sort of both ends like I mean they were all from the same generation I had dudes that were good to go like you said the most selfless dudes are ready to just do whatever for each other and then I had a handful of guys that were you know nothing was ever good enough they bitched about everything you know they didn't it was it was just a different

attitude that I'd never had really deal with before. And I told my Master's Chief that our exit interview. I was like, this was the most difficult thing I've done. And he was like, oh, the combat tour. And I'm like, no, dealing with this new generation, and that's what it is, I don't know how to handle it. And he had no answers for me either. He was like, yeah, like this is.

Well, he's a generation removed as well. Yeah. I mean, I can't speak for you, but for me, the combat aspect of it's not that hard. No. It's, you know what I mean? Well, that's what I, that's what we want. Well, you're not out there like doing a Rubik's Cube inside of a tumbling drying machine. Yeah.

And again, it's another perhaps misconception that people have that like all of these situations are incredibly complex and you're like redoing and defining tactics. And the reality is it's probably one of the most simpler things you can do. The number of, well, I guess the number of potential options you have or unlimited. But I mean, half a dozen, really. Let's go left or right. Fort or back. Maybe we're going to go to 45. Cover and move.

High ground generally works. since the day of sticks and stones, flank your enemy, don't get them. You know, like those decisions aren't that hard. I think the human being, that management of human beings is... Oh, that's a difficult one for sure. Yeah.

And as the battle space is evolving because, of course, our enemy is paying attention to us as well. Look, I just had Jack Carr on. He's talked about it perfectly. Like, we've been playing poker and our enemy's been watching our hands as well. So they have the ability to maneuver as well. And at the same time, we're changing as a society,

but we want the people to be able to do the job. I get so lost in it quickly as to the past way forward. I don't get, and I don't get the new, like, well, not the new, but just as, well, as you, you know, we've seen in the past, different administrations have, you know, cause different effects in the military. So, you know, like right now, I don't get, like, the big concern or the big thing they're focusing on is diversity and. Yeah. I'm fine with diversity, but not for the sake of diversity. No. I think the standard has to be the absolute thing that is held.

And just saying, hey, we are going to force this upon you so we can say that we are diverse. That is idiotic to me. Yeah. And I'm fine with diversity as well. But to me, we're talking about the military and we're talking, especially when we're talking about NSW, you're talking about a combat unit that's goal is to go over there and defeat the enemy. How does being diverse make us stronger in that aspect? I mean, we already have females.

Well, again, it doesn't if it's only for the enemy. the sake of diversity. Yeah, if they're saying so some social experiment then yeah and that's what really frustrates me, uh, you know, from the outside now seeing that. You're like, what, what is it? What are we doing? Like, what's the, are we trying to win the war or are we trying to then? Well, here's a better question. Do we know what we're doing? I mean, do we know, I mean, as a country, do we know where if you want to define it as a social experiment or, I mean, I've heard it described as many things, a lot of big sweeping changes with not a lot of history behind the impact that it's going to have and you want to implement those. Do we actually know what we're doing? Are we

throwing spitballs up against the wall to see what sticks? I mean, the whole spitball against the wall, I think that's the way we've always done it. It's like, oh, this works, this does. I mean, that's how we do learn and that's how we evolve. It's just, I guess, you know, these decisions that are made. I mean, diversity of ideas are great, you know, and that's why you do a planning cycle, and you break up and everybody has their little focus and you come together and you do a mission planning cycle. Like, but then to say we are going to change the makeup of your community just to say that it has changed, I start having an issue with that. Again, will different backgrounds potentially help? I don't know, because what if those backgrounds can't again meet the standard?

It always to me comes back to that objective standard. And maybe. And I think for you and I, that's probably so concrete because we saw the physical expression of what happens when the standard isn't met. And again, once you see that optic, I don't think you can turn that off. Because to me, that's the most important currency, I would say, would be performance. Performance against the standard. Yeah. And, I mean, the standard is what it is. But I've seen it as an instructor lowered, you know, when it would need be.

Yeah. And that's a sad part. It's like they will, you know, I think at the time when I was right after you were, not right after, but not too long after you were, it was the big push. Like, hey, we need to grow the force. Grow the force was the big mission at the time. We were catching the inklings of that as well when I was in second phase. The beauty of that program is like from a logistic perspective. You can only push so many people through.

Even if you just throttle the front end, you're going to have a bottleneck along the way. And the curriculum works. It does. You can't. I mean, and that's when I was there. It was like these people were constantly trying to change the curriculum. Like, hey, why is LogPT two hours? Why isn't it just an hour?

And I'm like, why are we like fucking with this? Like it works. It's been proven. Why are we constantly trying to like, you know, then the whole Great Lakes thing, like so much money was dumped into that. And when I was an instructor, we were told each class, oh, this is the cream of the crop. Like they've been through Great Lakes. They've done the psych testing. Like, no quitters.

What was the attrition rate? Historically accurate? Same every time. It was like five minutes in the first phase. Bing, bang, bang. And then it's the same outcome. And I'm like, why are we wasting all this money trying to figure out how to get more guys through? Just let the system or the process work.

It's you're getting the guys that you need. And yeah, you're going to have your ones and twosies that don't belong, because nothing's perfect. But I mean, the more people that you force through that training, the more of those onesy and twosies, I mean, you're going to get five and six, sevens and eights that don't belong. And we're a very small community. And so if you have seven or eight people each class that really don't belong, they got through because there's too many students and not enough instructors and maybe the standard is lowered a little bit, that's a, you know, two or three years of that, that's a huge outskating effects. Yeah. It's, you know, and now I just don't get some of the what we're doing, like what we're doing with, you know, the, was it this year, the first transgender actor duty seal came out on CNN? I think so.

Yeah. I mean, I knew the guy. He was at Team 1. And I was like, I mean, he's in his dress blues, female dress blues now. Yeah. And, I mean, doing like an hour long interview. which had to be approved by Warcom. I mean, he just didn't go do that.

And I'm like, what are we, what is the point of this? Like, how does this make NSW more effective on the battlefield? I get it, like, oh, you're so progressive now. Like, we've got transgender active duty Navy SEALs. But the problem is, unless you actually put your toes up on the line, you don't understand the importance of being able to do your job on the battlefield. And I don't fault people for that because for them it's just a conceptual thing. So it, you know what I mean?

It doesn't tug on them to the level that I think that would probably tug on us. Yeah. Because I look at that and I don't care what people are who they want to. Like, live your fucking life. I really, I think it's one of the most beautiful things of our country. Live your life. Can it be taken too far? Absolutely.

You can be taken too far. But that's your choice to make when it comes to living your life. But how it has an impact on what it is that we're trying to protect has a huge importance to me. Yeah. it affects me and I and it and it and it I'm like I can't say it means more to me because that's not fair but it probably tugs on me a little bit harder because of the experience and it's tough for me sometimes when talking with people because they don't have that and I you know it's yeah it puts me in a difficult spot it's a hard it's a hard conversation to have especially like with me and

you it's easier but yeah with somebody that doesn't have like you just said the uh the background of being in the teams or going you know doing that they yeah it would be difficult for them to like why is it such a bad thing? And I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm just saying like, what is the purpose? Yeah. What's the objective? It's not, you know, I don't care what if you want to, you know, dress up or be whatever, change sexes.

Do you, do you, man? Like, I don't care. Unless it negatively impacts performance against the standard. Yeah. And I mean, that's how I. It's harsh to say that. And again, I do my best to understand my optic of the world versus most people's optic. I can understand how that comes across is.

rude or not crass, but just how could you possibly, you know, be so blunt about it? I'm like, I'm sorry. That just, I'm never going to be able to change the way that I feel about that because that standard is. It's a principle. Yeah. It is your principle. And it's mine, too. It's what I grew up with and bred into me.

The standard is a standard. You ever sit back and I know you've gotten off the news a little bit, but I'll assume you have some idea of what's going on in the U.S. And, you know, division is a word that's thrown around a lot. or progressive policies or word that's thrown around a lot. You ever sit back and just wonder whether or not what you went through was worth it? Like what is it exactly that we as a nation or the people who went overseas that we fought for? That we fought for?

Like, is it all for not? Or is it heading in that direction? I think that's... Like, I want people to be able to live their life to the absolute limit of what they want to be able to be able to be able to. to do, but I don't want them to live it at the point where they can rip the country apart. Yeah, I think I saw something, you know, I think a meme or something that it was like, you know, there's a large portion of this country that just wants to be left alone and do their thing. And there's a large portion of this country that doesn't want to leave you alone that wants you to like.

It's an interesting way to put it. You know, and I mean, that's the way, you know, I live my life is like, you do you. I don't do whatever you want. Just stay the fuck off my lawn. If it starts affecting me, then we got a problem. You know, but other than that, I don't, it's America. Like, be free, do what you want to do. It's, it is, it is frustrating to see some of the decisions that are made.

And then you're like, what the fuck? What was I doing? You know, what were we doing over there? And that more pertains to decisions that are made overseas right now. Or like the strategic decisions, I think. I definitely get frustrated with some of that, like, What are we doing? Are we trying to win or are we just trying to prolong this? But I don't think I would, no, I wouldn't.

Fighting for this country is definitely worth it. I mean, no matter what, and this is that they, we'll get through this. It's, we're America. We're going to get through it. And this whole gas lighting thing of like, oh my gosh, everything is so horrible. Like our country is getting torn apart. No, it's not. I go ahead and go over to these third world countries that we've been to.

like those countries are torn apart that's what it looks like now that's not to say like there are small factions i believe that people in this country who are americans who for whatever reason maybe they're angry about their life situation maybe it's just the way they live their life that they want to tear it apart but i absolutely don't think that's the majority no but it is the majority of what is reported on well that's all yeah that's all they're filming is like these little factions and making them bigger than they are um you know i you know the we you know all the all the last year they were burning down cities right with all the riots and everything still going on in some yes it is it's still going on but the main focus that everybody was you know going nuts about was

the capital like the right on that now yeah that was an embarrassment and that was i'm completely against well and you got to separate it into two groups the people that were literally just there because they wanted to be seen and heard and then the people who are like oh fuck it let's just storm the capital yeah the idiots very different uh groups of people one i think they are completely protect and their right to do so because their assembly and speech. Like, yeah, Roger that. You're exercising your rights. You're being seen and heard.

And the fuckwits who are like, let's just kick in the door of the Capitol building, like negative. It's a fucking hard pass. Exactly. But, you know, the main focus was that, you know, media. Oh, my gosh. Look at this. Hundreds of thousands of people were there not doing that. Exactly.

But then no one, it's like, what about all the cities that were burned down last year? Like, that was wrong. That was just as wrong. if not even more wrong than storming the capital. I mean, I don't think they've broken thing, broken. I mean, one woman was killed, which is tragic. But all the stuff that happened last year, I'm like, that's an embarrassment as well. Like, what are we, you know, what is the purpose of you guys doing that?

We're putting on quite a show for the rest of the world. It's some popcorn being popped around. People are just like, oh shit, season two. Yeah, here we go. Oh, shit, it's riot season again. Yeah. It's, I mean, I have faith in America. I have, you know.

You too. Because I walk down Main Street Calisville and I talk to people and the stuff that I see on the news is not replicated here. And yes, before people lose their shit, I realize it's not the most diverse representation of American culture. I get it. But I also was just in Utah and Salt Lake in California with my dad. And I have the same conversations and the vast. Actually, I don't know if I've ever encountered somebody in person that would be involved in those activities that I see on TV. And we can disagree. and have conversations. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I have faith in the American people, too. I'm not saying that it's going to be an easy road, but I have faith. I same here. It's we'll come out of this. We got good shocks.

Yeah, I'll tell you what's what I told last year with the whole quarantine and a pandemic and all that. I was getting a kick out of it. And I don't want to offend anybody because I know a lot of people lost their jobs and it's a tragic thing. But what I was getting a kick out of was the way people, reacted to it and the bitching and complaining about being you know locked down or whatever I was like you know and I told my wife I'm like now the country knows how it feels to be in the military like this is part of it like you have to follow stupid rules that don't some of them don't make sense but you know they're put out that way but then you also when those stupid rules are put

out you always have those that small group of who wants to enforce those stupid rules like now I they somehow get this fake authority about them, which is what I definitely got a kick out of all last year. It was like going into places and then you always have the, what my kids, you know, the Karen's. My kid loves to call them is, you know, put your mask on and like they throw these fits. I actually feel bad for people who were named Karen like two decades. Oh, dude. Yeah. So, fuck.

You drew the long short stick on that one. It's the biggest insult of 2020. I forget the experiment, but it was they took two groups of people and one of them had to, and it legitimately, Everybody knew this was just an experiment. And half of them became inmates and the other half of them became like the guards. And the way, just the way that the behavior shifted towards that, just from the perceived position of authority or power, whatever it may be. But it can go pretty rapidly.

Pretty south. Yeah. I mean, the military is the good, the perfect place to look for that. Yeah, I remember going in boot camp. I just kept thinking back to that, you know, being in boot camp and they're like, you know, nobody talk, you know, during these things. and you always have those people that are like, shipmate, shit, shit, mate, shut up, shipmate.

And you're like, uh, yeah, I hate that turn. But those are the same people who, you know, put your mask on. Like, it's like, dude, mind your bit, like, I'm outside, mind your business. Why are you coming up to me and talking to me? You know, it's, it's pretty amazing. I mean, it's one big social experiment this past year. For sure. What advice would you give to somebody entering the community now?

Let's say they're through buds and SQT so you know that they're, They've made it through the pipeline. Looking back in the rearview mirror, what would you say to somebody who's just starting the journey? I'd say enjoy it, make the most out. I wish I would have enjoyed it more. Same here. I was so caught in the next school, next deployment. Take the time and enjoy where you're at.

Take pictures. That's one thing I didn't take any pictures while I was in. And the ones I do have is from other people. You can't say you didn't take any because you got in trouble for taking some pictures. I didn't take that picture, though. And somebody sent that to me. You should probably clarify the pictures. Be careful which pictures you do take.

But, I mean, take pictures of, like, you know, your career. I didn't take pictures of your friends. Your friends, yeah. Those are some of the most cherished memories I have left of the guys who aren't here. Exactly. I wish I had more of them. Enjoy your time. and then stay true to yourself while you're in.

Don't, I think I said this before, you know, if you do make it into the community and you're in a platoon, don't let somebody else's beliefs become yours just because you feel like you have to fit in. You know, if you, like example, if you don't drink, then keep that way, don't drink. You're going to get your balls busted for it,

but believe me, it'll be fine. It'll go away. And you'll be stronger for it too by holding on to your morals and your resolve. And that's where, that's the biggest advice is like hold on to your morals and resolve, while you're in. Be yourself.

And then, don't quit. Yeah. That's the, I mean, I get asked that all like, what advice do you have? I'm like,

dude, I'll get asked by parents. You know, do you think my kid can be a seal? I'm sorry, I can't answer that question. Having been an instructor and seen every physical expression of homeless apian,

and having lost money on who I thought was going to make it through, I will no longer ever make that wager. The only answer I'll give you is, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, just don't quit. How do you move past?

everything that you've gone through. Like in 10 years from now, who do you want to be? Do you want this to be a blip in the radar? And you know what I mean? Like it's, you have a level of notoriety that I think will be hard to escape, probably at least in the short term. Yeah.

It'll fade like anything else does. But who do you want to be in 10 years? I want to be, you know, what I, I want to make, I want to be somebody that made a, something good out of a real shitty situation that was able to, turn this around and help other people.

You know, that's, I want people to be able, it's not how, you know, the situations that happen to you, whether you control them or not, it's, they don't define you. It's how you react to them. And that's what I want people to see is like, my family and I refused from day one to be victims. We're not victims in anything. We're not sitting back crying like, oh, what was me? Like, we're using what happened to us and then moving forward by helping other people, you know,

paying it forward with all the help that we got. that's what I mean that's what I want people to see is like you I think that the victim role the whole victim thing in this country is also an epidemic it's like it's a little out of control yeah everybody's a victim it's like no you choose to be the victim that's that's your choice you know and I think it's a weak choice to make you know you and I'm depending on the situation obviously but you can you know get past that and make make the best I mean you know you there's all these quotes out there. I can't remember any of them. But like, you know, adverse situations,

getting through them, you know, can make you a lot stronger and a lot more stronger than you think you are. Yeah. And you can have a lot more impact on this world from getting through those adverse situations. And that's what I want to do is just have a positive impact on people from here and out and just help people where I can, especially where we came from. It's just help them. Yeah. Well, until they change the conversations at the time, the best way to have an impact is the tactical people taking care of the tactical people. We'll take care of our own. And eventually you'd, I mean, if you play the timetable out enough, eventually some of those

tactical people should ascend the ladders and be sitting at those tables, but that's a 10, 20, 30 year problem. Assuming they don't. They're still the same human being at that table when they get there. That's not lost on me. Okay. I was like, yeah. Being at the table and being the person and remembering the impact that those other tactical

people had, are two different things. It's, yeah. where you came from and just like we said being yourself and holding true to your principles and morals which that can change is the farther you move up that ladder yeah for sure when the book does come out where is the best place for people to find it uh so where are we now mid-april this will be the last episode in april so we'll have about a month for people to get ready for it to come out yeah so uh eddie gallagher book.com is uh there i have actually just started uh our own website just uh yesterday or day before it came out.

So it's the eddy gallager.com. That has, you'll be able to buy the book there. And then also has a link to every company that I'm affiliated with, just to promote all their stuff. So you're on there, it's like, you know, black rifle, easy day, camp. I'm assuming it'll be for sale on Amazon to. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, Amazon, the normal stuff.

And then whatever stores. Directly through the eddyalliger.com. Yeah. So people will be able to do that. It's June 15th. The people that preordered it will get it a month or early so that you know with the sign copy yeah so that they're actually only about three weeks away from yeah okay so yeah we i think we did about 10 000 pre-orders are live now no we shut them off

so they've been up they were up and then as soon as do d gave it back we shut off the pre-orders so we could just get the book to print and then get it out there okay but some of you are lucky some of you are not yes as is the way in life those those that didn't you chose poorly and the pipe hitter Foundation, best way for people to get info and support. So we have the, obviously our web, pipe hitter.org, the pipeheadation.org, and then we have our own Instagram, pipe hitter Instagram, pipe hitter Instagram page. And then also my brother, which said earlier, has the pipe hitter podcast so you can get tons of information there. Yeah, those are the three places to check out that. And hopefully we'll be doing more of that this year as well.

Fuck yeah, man. Well, I appreciate you making the true about. to Montana. I appreciate you inviting me out here. And, uh, dude, I love Montana, man. Yeah. More importantly, though, man, I appreciate your willingness to talk about your growth and what it takes to go through that growth. Like, I try to beat the drama about therapy, which has been huge for me. I, like I said, I have an interest and a curiosity about the other treatments, but at the same time, I don't know, you know, you're talking about the intentions that you're right down. I'm not at a place where I think I could define those. So for me, I don't know if it's, I'm at a right place for it.

Maybe one day I will be, but hearing people talk about what they needed to go through to, you know, basically look in the mirror and address what was going on with them, which for everybody listening is the fucking thing you can actually control as yourself. Yes. I think it's huge. I think it's powerful. And I think the more people that talk about it, the better. I think we'll be better for it. And then for, yeah, I just kind of one thing for people listening is, you know, the most powerful thing I did during that when I was going through a rough time is admitting to my kids, my wife and kids that I,

that something was wrong and that I needed help. I sat them down on the couch one night, and I just had a talk, and I was like, listen, there is something wrong. Like, I'm going to get it fixed. I want to be a better person. I made a promise to them. And that seals it right there. You just made a statement, a promise to yourself out loud,

and that was a huge driving factor. And going forward and trying to make myself a better person is, because that's who I'm doing. I'm doing it for myself, but I also doing it for my wife and kids. So, I mean, that anything you say out loud becomes, you know, a statement or you're making a promise to yourself, which you make a promise yourself out loud and you break it. That's a big, big deal, I think. Not to everybody. Not to everybody, I guess.

To me it was. To the people that I like. Yeah. It is. Yeah. Now you've got to be a man of your word. Or woman of your word. I didn't mean to exclude anybody.

Gotta be careful with the 16th day. A person of your word, Andy, come on. Let me just tell you right now, I am lost. I get so lost, so fast on what you're supposed to say and what you're not supposed to say. I just try to tell the truth. I try to be honest. I tell people when I'm talking about something I know a little bit about, what I'm talking about something I don't know about, which is most things. And the chips fall where they may.

Exactly. I'm not worried about it. Thank you, man. That's awesome. No, thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you. Thanks for taking the time to tune in, whether you're listening on an audio-only platform or you're watching on YouTube. I appreciate that you take the time.

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Until next time. See you.