Cleared Hot - Powered By BRCC - Episode 225 - Bill Anthes

Episode Date: March 21, 2022

Bill Anthes is a Special Forces veteran continuing his service as a therapist with a unique approach of using physical fitness to improve mental health. Upon leaving the military to better serve his family, Bill founded BTWN The Ears, a coaching and experienced-based brand that provides training opportunities to build physical, mental, and emotional fitness for individuals and teams. Bill and his wife, Karianne operate both a brick and mortar training facility in New Jersey as well as remote coaching with clients around the world. https://www.btwntheears.com/

What's going on, everybody? Today's episode is brought to you by You Know Who. That's right, Black Rifle Coffee. If you're into an amazing brand and amazing people, I highly suggest you go to Black Rifle Coffee.com and check what they have to offer. Even if you're not into coffee, they have a bunch of amazing merchandise. It's actually one of the more impressive things that I think that Evan is able to do is the turn and burn rate on their apparel. Hats, shirts, coffee gear, and of course, obviously coffee itself.

So black rifle coffee.com, perfect for every day of the week, especially if you don't want your coffee to taste like shit. That's it. My guest today is Bill Anthe's. And we've known each other for quite some time. But we hadn't sat down or actually seen each other for quite some time either. Met back in the days that I was working for CrossFit. Actually very early on with the CrossFit and Reebok relationship met at their campus, I think, for the first time. And he was just beginning his journey into Special Forces. Post-military, he, created an organization called Between the Ears, which I would absolutely murder if I was trying to describe exactly what it is. Fortunately, Bill does a very good job of describing, so I'll let him do so. And then we chatted about his recent psychedelic experience, targeted and therapeutic psychedelic experience, and the impact it's had on his life. So I'm just going to shut my mouth. Episode 225 with Bill Anthe's. Enjoy. I'm looking at danger close now. When was the last time we saw each other? Because I was thinking about it.

this, I think it was when you proposed at Big Sky. Oh, it might have been. Yeah. It was either that or... Which full disclosure, I don't remember what year that was. 20 something. In the teens somewhere. Was it even in the teens?

It might have been 10. You're right. I think it might have been... So I went in in 10. What year did you get married? What year did you propose? This is a test. I know. I'm going to fail all those questions.

I proposed like shortly after getting the group. Oh, so it was after 10 then. Which was like around 12, 12, 13. I am not good at remembering sequentially what yours things happened. Me either. I know we fucked up people at paintball. Yeah, we did. And then you went on a hike and came back, engaged.

And I think that was the last time we saw each other. Maybe at a DC event, Hope event, Crosswood event, maybe it was around the same time. I feel like we ran into each other pretty sequentially, like every six months for like, I don't know, a year and a half. In the CrossFit world. Yeah, for sure. Those Bozeman gatherings, well, actually wasn't even Bozeman. It would be big sky. I get confused because the mountain up here is big mountain.

Oh. Those were pretty awesome. Yeah, that was my first one. That was the only one I went to. I always missed them. But that was cool. It also tied in, I think, a little bit to, you were asking before we started, why here.

And obviously, Bozeman and Calisville are not the same thing. Captain Bozeman is far superior in every way, and people looking to move to Montana should certainly look there first. If you're looking for the methier crime-ridden areas, Calispell would be the place to come. If you're into that type of thing, I'm not going to judge people. Right, right. No, but that time there, I think we had.

hit all, I think there were three. We hit all three. And that was, that kind of ignited the desire to come back as well. I mean, we were living in southeastern San Diego, which has got beautiful features in and of itself. Yeah. Very different. You could go surf or be in, you know, Mexico within an hour. There was some mountains out to the east, but it's just different. Yeah. Yeah. So that kind of sparked that. Are more, are there more born and bred Montanaians, out here or? I don't know. What I've also come to discover is that people who get really pissed when you talk about how

beautiful Montana is and they'll try to chew your ass because they're from here. When you dig a little bit, that means 20 plus years. It doesn't mean they're from here. So that's a real thing, huh? I always wondered if that was a like, if that was a real thing or if it was just like a stupid social media like. No, it's a real thing. Wow.

I won't mention any names, but I will say that when we moved here, one of the first pieces of advice that we were given by a friend was to get the California license plates off of the vehicles. Yeah. I could see that, though. I can see it, but here's the thing. So the population in a lot of places in the U.S. is exploding. Yeah. People are leaving areas that they don't want to be in. California is a great example.

We left before all the pandemic and the things. that have happened since then, and a lot of that has driven the exodus. Right. But I think if you have good people moving to wherever, that's great. The only thing that concerns me is people who are going to try to move from California and make wherever they land, California or New York or, you know, fill in the blank. As long as you don't have any intention of doing that, like, hello, welcome aboard. I've lived here five years now, so I'm basically from here.

It's been five years. Yeah. In July. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you're born and brace. Born and race.

I mean, birth certificate, everything. Hey, it works for some other people. Yeah. I was doing what I will call pseudo security at a music festival that happens here. It's called Under the Big Sky. It was nice. God, I regret my life choices that involve me spending three days in my life, just being beaten to death by the sun.

And I was basically checking wristbands. And there was a gentleman who decided he could no longer hold his urine and was going to go through outside, just outside of the fence and go pee on this guy's property. Mind you, this whole thing is on a guy's ranch,

private property. So he came back in. I was like, hello, sir, you're going to be leaving now. And he just starts chewing me a new asshole about, motherfucker,

I'm the fifth generation, Montana. I'm not like one of the California cock suckers. And I was like, wait a to his and I was like, cool. I moved up here from San Diego,

so this gentleman is going to scratch. Just so this state. a little bit more. Just a little bit more. I'm going to cut you deep with my words, and he just was like, fuck. Yeah.

Yeah. Fuck that guy. I mean, the landowner could have taken a 12 gauge to his dome, so, you know. There were tens of thousands of people. Let's just say that the urine control department was fully deployed. Yeah. I don't like being around large groups of people like that, that many. And then later into the evening, it would get a little,

Western for sure as the alcohol was flowing. They were just, it was sunny the entire time. The booze was flowing the entire time. I don't think they were going like beer for water. Yeah. So towards the evenings, it frayed, if you will. As you're pulling on the yarn, it got a little wild. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. I just sat there with my hat on. It's like, this is my life. I check wristbands now. This is when you moved here? This was last year. Oh, are you serious?

A buddy of mine, a very good friend of mine who kind of run. the overall security for it. Okay. Asked us to help. He offered to pay. I'm like, fuck you, dude. I'm not going to take your money. Yeah.

So I helped. And this year, I think I would reconsider that decision if he asked. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure there's a local wrestler who would be a great fit. We had some cowboys out there. I bet. Fine display of belt buckles.

Like dinner, like saucer plates. It was great. Oh, man. So we could have, did we meet? I'm trying to remember when I stopped working for cross. It was either, I think it was in 14, so it is possible we saw each other after that, especially if that was in 2010. Yeah, I want to say there was a DC event that. There was a CrossFit for Hoke DC event.

Yeah, for sure. I think we were on the mall, right? On the mall, hot as hell. Correct, which is any time in D.C. after the month of May. Yeah, that was, that was hot. Yeah. And I think that was, I think that was the last time. Okay.

And you had begun your military. journey at that point, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I was already at group at that point. Okay. I remember I fucked my backup real bad on a jump. Well, a culmination of things, but it finally went out. It was actually a static line?

It was actually a static line. Of course it was. I don't know. And it wasn't even like a, like I had a couple, like one specific like, you know, near death partial inversion kind of like, oh God, this is it. This was just a weird, awkward, you know, PLF landing. Anyway, my back. Parachute landing fall, for those of you not in the know.

Yes, yes, yes. Sorry about that. Emphasis on the fall? Not a lot of emphasis on the landing. Not a lot of emphasis on the landing. The pre-jump situation was always hilarious to me, where you'd practice the parachute landing fall. As if.

Well, you probably had no choice but to go through the Army school at, what is it, Benning? Benning, yeah, yeah. So the Navy pipeline now runs their own. Static line? Static line and free fall. It's part of their pipeline now. So they go, and I didn't go through it. This was after my time.

So if I mess this up a little bit, don't hold my feet to the fire. But it's buds. They have a full training pipeline called SQT now. At the end of it, you leave with your Trident. And then you go to your team as opposed to each one of the teams doing their own individual training, which could be a nightmare. Right, right, right. So I believe jump school, they either do Alaska, the cold weather training and then jump school or it's jump school and then that. But it's early on.

But they go static land free fall back to back. Guess how long it takes them? Guess how long it takes anybody other than Fort Benning to teach a PLF and static line jumping? I'm going to say three days. That is how long I think it should take. I think it takes them five. But at Benning, it takes three weeks. Yeah.

A full month. A full month of proving gravity is. is a force. I still to this day feel that the swing landing trainer was actually a tool for the instructors to try to hurt people. Yeah. To let it swing and then they just release it at the apex you just land completely flat on your back and they're like, oh, you didn't PLF properly do that again. Like, motherfucker, I came down completely parallel to the ground. I saw a guy snap his leg backwards and everybody just looked at the black hat the sergeant airborne or whatever they're calling them the instructor and was like okay you did that like on the swing landing trainer oh yeah oh yeah

they have 100% control over when that thing releases yeah so we should probably describe this so i don't even know okay so a static line parachute or in a parachute system in general you're going to have a container which contains your parachute and harness which you're have a chest strap and in the military they have a waistband too a lot of civilian parachutes don't have waistbands actually some of them do for people who do swooping type stuff the harness at the top of the harness on your shoulders it goes up to the canopy a variety of configurations but you're suspended by the harness so this contraption I forget how you hook into it it's probably was actually the Capewell so you could practice getting releasing those they pick you do they pick you up off the ground or do

you step off a platform. I thought you stepped off a platform. I think so too. So they get you into this thing. And the whole purpose of this is for you to practice landing. And you step off and you swing. And a guy's holding onto a rope that can let go at any time. So he could let go when your feet are straight down or they're at a 45.

Or if you really get going when you're at 90. Yeah. Yeah. And so they're in 100% control. And you swing back and forth for days and you do it over and over and over again. Yeah. to master your controlled catastrophe into the ground. A miracle that more people don't get hurt.

I think they just don't tell anybody and a lot more people get hurt than the actual stats of the course would show. Yeah, yeah. It's a nightmare. It was one of the worst things I ever probably did. When do you do that in the pipeline to become a green bray?

So pretty much right after you finish infantry's training. So before the Q-course? Yeah. Oh, boy. So this is, and there's also that thing of like, you know, seeing hopes and dreams just shatter with a shin as well. Yeah, with the screams for help? Yeah. And so you do, you know, basic training,

infantry one station unit training or whatever. And that's at Benning, and then you just go to airborne, which at that point you think you're like royalty because... You're not a dirty, nasty leg. Well, yeah. you're not in basic training. So you're like, wow. Like, you know, freedom, so on, so they're told.

And then there's, so you do that, you do your jump school or whatever, then you ship up to brag for prep course selection and then they've changed it. Probably best to start those courses slightly broken anyway from jump school. Of course. Physically, I think that course breaks people mentally more than anything. It's mind-numbing. I remember thinking, like, I remember thinking, like, this is actually really good prep, because this is mind-numbing.

Yeah. And, like, just an, like, an extreme exercise in patience where, like, patience and control. You can't control literally anything. Yeah. And, uh, what was the longest you spent jocked up waiting for a bird to jump there? Oh. I'll be honest. I don't even remember.

I think we did one time, like, over four hours. Yeah, that sounds about right. We're talking people need to piss and shit, and the instructors are like, that's too bad. Yeah. I remember being jocked up for the first jump, and I think that was it. Yeah. After that, it was like, okay. It's best to block it out.

This is just my, you know, pain, pain in the groin. Yeah. Why'd you, uh, you enlisted later in life, right? I did. How old were you when you went in? 25. What were you doing before that? I was working at a public accounting firm as an auditor.

So I was at PricewaterhouseCoopers. I went to school, college, played soccer there, had a good career. Where'd you go to college? Montclair State. It's a state school in New Jersey. Okay. God, we really got to get you out of New Jersey. Does it sound like I have a Jersey accent?

No, but I didn't realize you were like born and bred there. And now you're still living there. It's like, come on, man. I know. I know. Well, I did. So I went to school or college, graduated, started working at Pricewaterhouse doing just. What does that mean to be an auditor there?

You basically check someone else's work to see if numbers add up, if signatures are on paper, if, you know, certain systems and controls were, it, I'm dying a little bit inside, just retelling this. And what year was this? 07, 8, 9. Okay. Yeah. So I graduated like 07 and then went right away. But it was like I took the CPA exam, was doing that thing. And at 23, making, you know, 60 grand a year, it's like, this is awesome.

You should have had at least two Mustangs. It was on the way. It was on the way. I could have pulled, I was living at my parents' house. and so I was just saving a bunch of money and making a lot of money at the time relative. Yeah. 60 grand in your mid-20s?

Without any kids' expenses, like... I mean, if you're making 60 and your mid-20s, you should be spending at least 100. I mean, that's the average methodology for most people. Like, I'm making 60, let's leverage. Yeah, yeah. We're going to double that in terms of debt. I know what I'm going to do.

Get a big old hole for myself financially and pay it off the rest of my life. Yeah, that way I'm... indebted to the man forever. But yeah, so I was there, and then every day just, I was like, this is just not, you know, this is not the life I want to live. What would it have looked like had you stayed down that path,

like professional CPA? Yeah, probably. I mean, if I stayed within that firm, partner, you know, senior manager, kind of, kind of that whole thing, a lot of people don't. So the big four, a lot of people use that as just like a nice res, and may block to flip it to go into the private sector or into corporate.

So it would have just been something in finance. How'd you land on that when you were going to school? Funny you asked because, so I grew up like 10 miles outside New York City. Okay. And was in high school when 9-11 happened. That was obviously like that was a big event, 16 at the time, 15, 16 at the time. My brother was at the Air Force Academy. He was a C-130 pilot.

and I had always wanted to go into the military, but like he was in the Air Force, and then it was very clear that like, okay, war is going to happen. So I was sort of like, uh, two sons, you know, in the military during war.

Let me maybe not do that to my parents and try to find another way. Avoid the saving Private Ryan scenario, if you will. Yeah, yeah, you know, and I didn't, and I wanted to go in as a, you know, as a commando for,

whatever like that's the stories I kind of you know grew up on and but I didn't want to do that to my parents so at the time there was like a lot of corporate sort of scandals going on so I thought well maybe FBI would be an interesting thing and that one of the ways into the FBI was through accounting so I was like well let me do some accounting it's like law it's like it's like a lawyer accounting for all the white collar stuff law enforcement and something else. I forget what the other one was at the time. But you probably could have gotten your foot in the door

with any of those and then kind of figured it out from there. Yeah, pretty much. But I thought, all right, well, accounting, it's a good, you know, safe, it's a safe thing. If the FBI doesn't work out, jobs are hiring because of all of these things. And it was like one of those, it was one of those deviations from like the path

of what you want to pursue that I learned real quick is like not, you know, that's not what I want to do. So after two years, I'd Pricewaterhouse. I quit, moved to Texas, and started the process of enlisting. And I met you before you enlisted, though, right? I swear I met you at a level one. I think.

Where? I have no idea. I got my first level one actually at Fort Hood. Well, I definitely met you before you engaged. Yeah. Before you engaged, before you got engaged. Yeah, yeah. So it had to have been at a level.

Regionals. Maybe. I think the first time I remember meeting you was at regionals. Okay. This is actually a good one. And it was... Oh, dear God. It was at Reginals.

Up in Reebok. Up at Reebok. So before you even continue, I apologize for my behavior in the story because I guarantee you I don't remember doing this, but it's probably not great. I was like, all right, this is. awesome because we're up at Reebok and you know the outdoor sort of situation and this was it was probably 2011 yeah the second year it was early yeah and they had like you know pieces of plywood on the grass for the platforms and everybody's with their stuff and their kit and their chalk and this and that and it starts raining and i didn't say it at first but you said it for sure and you're like oh fuck yeah

I was like, okay, this is nice. I like this guy. Like, yes. And it was just, then it was like, do you remember that show, mystery science theater? Yeah. It was kind of like, and you would have thought it was raining fire. Yeah, but the athletes. So here's the thing.

I can, when it comes to competition, I can understand the headspace. All environmental conditions need to be the same. In theory for the test to be the same. Yes. But also fuck you. Right. I mean, I get it. And also because I wasn't competing, I enjoy it so much more when I can see the frustration

bubbling out. Without a doubt. It's entertaining to see just how much energy goes towards things that you can't control. And I wasn't directly involved really in anything that was going on. So what did I care? Zero is the answer. It was just amazing. It really was.

And it was one of those times where it's like, look, you can tell who's going to do well at this just by the fact of how they're responding to a misty sort of raining situation. The person who finished 50th was not going to finish first just because their barbell was slightly moist due to a sporadic rainfall. Correct. However, that became the justification for some. Yeah, and that highlighted itself. And it was kind of like, it was hilarious.

So, yeah, I think that was actually the first time. That was the first time I remember. It probably was because I was pretty intimately involved with that relationship at the time. so I definitely would have been there. Right. Okay. Yeah. I've known your better half for longer.

Maybe that's my confusion. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She's a firecracker, by the way. We can leave her out of this if we need to, but... I don't know. She's...

Yeah, she is a firecracker. So you were... Let's see. But when you were competing then, you were still doing the Pricewaterhouse stuff then. In CrossFit? When you were doing the regionals. Oh, that was never me.

No, okay, I'm sorry. At that time, not when you were competing. When you were at the regional, you were still doing the press. Oh, no, no, no, I was in the Army. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I did the Pricewaterhouse thing from like, yeah, 07 to 9-ish. Oh, so when I met you, you were already in the Army.

I was already in. For some reason, I thought that when we had met, you were still kicking around the idea of joining the Army. No, I don't. Because I met my wife, actually, three months before I went to basic training. And that was when I first got into, like, official crossfit, not just weird dude in the corner. How'd you guys meet? I walked into her gym.

In Jersey? In Jersey. God, we gotta get you out. Yeah, so had a childhood friend who this is 2010, I guess, yeah, 2010. Had a childhood friend who started coaching for her at a

new location, she just opened. And that was like the third location in Jersey at the time. You know, there was no, there was, it wasn't what is now and you know had just kind of known okay you were doing it I'm doing it a little bit we kind of stayed in touch and I was like I want to go to like a real affiliate you know because it was always the Globo gym corner weirdo sort of situation doing clean and jerks with hexagonal weights yes yes yeah completely and for those of you who haven't tried that you should give it a whirl

it's pretty fun okay so the gym I was doing it at obviously did not have a rower a concept two rower. Yeah. And the sub was sumo deadlift high pulls. Hmm. I credit that with my back injury. Every time, it was like, you know, for every 10 meters, I think it was a sumo deadlift high pole. Oh, so it could be up to 50 for like a 500?

So many of them. So many of them. Of all the exercise, well, I was going to say of all the exercises I've ever seen executed with what I would consider to be flawed technique. By that, I mean a rounded backwood. with your tugging as hard as possible. I don't know if it's the most I've ever seen, because I've seen some horrendous shit, but it's probably up there,

especially with fatigue. Oh, yeah. It's just this snake of lower back whipping. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It is like a battle rope oriented up and down for your spine with weights. But yeah, that was, so I went into the gym,

moved back home from Texas to be with my family. for a few months. I'd already kind of signed the contract who was just waiting to ship out. Yeah. And it was like, oh, right on. Like, going into a real gym where I can see a kettlebell in person.

And, yeah, I walked in. It was actually late to the... I was only going to go, like, check it out and say hello, you know. It was late. And there was this cute blonde who, you know, I didn't know anybody. And at the time, I was like, you know,

that was not... I mean, I'll say that, but, like, I'm going into the army. I didn't even know who any... anybody was. Yeah. But she's like, hey, you want to do this workout? It was just fight on bat.

I was like, sure. It's a terrible workout, by the way. Awful workout, but it was cool. And then yeah, then we actually, you know, just had a good friendship, you know, would talk and stuff. And at that time, you know, different head spaces, like, I'm going into the Army. Yeah, you were focused on something else. For sure. This is a legitimate, you know, person with a business and kids and everything.

And that never entered the realm of possibility, which, you know, you were focused on something. possibility, which was actually nice to alleviate some pressure from, you know, whatever normal attractions there might be. But it was like, that's not even the thing. And then like two days before I went, two days before I left for basic training, it was kind of like a, you know, hey, heart to heart kind of conversation. Great timing on that one. Yeah, you know, something about curveballs and smack me in the blind side. What were her thoughts on the path and pipeline you were setting yourself up for. I don't think she really knew. Like, I don't think she actually... It's probably very accurate. Yeah, I don't, and there was never, you know, I had remembered, she was kind of her, her marriage was

ending, and there was that situation going on. And, you know, I remember saying, like, hey, whatever I'm doing, I just want you to be happy in your life. And, like, that's probably means, like, you know, I'm not, I'm thinking myself, like, I'm not going to be part of that, you know, and, So there wasn't really any of that discussion of like, what does the future look like? Because we weren't like considering even being like a couple or anything. Yeah. And so she all of a sudden then when it was this, when she decided like, okay, yeah, this is somebody I want to, you know, kind of get to know more. It was just like you're in it now.

And so the first year, I think, the first year, I think, you know, with all the training and this and that as a new guy too, you know, I was probably without phone for like nine out of 12 months. And so that was definitely like a trial by fire situation. It's a relationship challenge, if you will. Yeah, yeah. And she stayed up in Jersey with the kids and business throughout the whole time. We never lived together until I got out. So it was a long, long distance thing.

How long were you in for? Five years. Yeah, but, well, five interesting years, I can only imagine. So you got out in what? 15? Yeah, end of 15. Okay. End of 15.

Yeah. And so I've had Green Braz on before, but walk me through the pipeline just so people can understand without having to Google it. Yeah. So when I went through, they've changed it, but when I went through, I entered the Army into the 18 X-ray contract, which is basically like, hey, you want to be a SF guy? Yeah. Here you go.

Great for the Army, recruiting tool. Most fail. The Army gets their numbers. Yeah, I was going to say, there's a seal contract as well. And I feel like they're really plussing up the fleet navy with that zeal contract. Yeah. There's the kids who are really good at Call of Duty. Yeah.

And that's what they want to go do, you know. And I don't- Do you want to hear a funny story about that from yesterday? Obviously. From literally yesterday. Yes, yes. We were out in the Woodstock, Illinois. Suburts of Chicago doing a jiu-jitsu seminar for two days, flying back yesterday.

I generally don't pay much attention to people boarding the aircraft. I get into my seat. I put my AirPods on and pretend like I'm not in a fucking metal tube. Everybody's sitting down, except for one person who's like frantically now like a little bit going back and forth. Still not paying too much attention at this point. And then I look at my watch. I'm like, oh, we should have been taken off by now. So I like, sometimes I'll hit pause on the awesome music selection I'm listening to when I can tell that the captain's speaking.

I happened to hit like pause pull one out there is a kid I'm gonna call him a kid because he was maybe early 20s okay he was trying to board the aircraft with a gaming PC console in his fucking hand and delayed the entire flight

because he couldn't find somewhere to put it in the overhead storage and ended up like arguing with the ladies up the flight attendant like well I'll just take a later flight. I mean, I fly with this thing all the time. And so finally you start hearing people yelling from the back, get off the fucking plane. To which he does because he couldn't find a suitable storage for his gaming PC.

So some people love Call of Duty more than you and I love anything. He's the moral of that story. What was he, a professional gamer or something? Absolutely not. He was a professional enthusiast. Oh, my God. When he walked by, I mean, it was a pretty, I don't know shit about gaming consoles. No.

But this thing was like completely transparent. You could see all the stuff in there. So I bet it was expensive. Yep. But dude, where, A, where are you going? Why does that have to go with you? Is it okay if you're separated from it for a little bit? What the fuck?

Oh, my God. And I just enjoyed it when the people was like, get off. Like his stress level went from like a three to a 30. Yeah. And that's where I really start paying attention because I'm like, yeah. This is good. This is good. Yeah.

And then it's like both AirPods out and just like, yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. People were pissed. I can only imagine. The airplane situation is gnarly. It really is. Have you ever been on one where I see headlines all the time, like fight breaks out,

a man urinates on passenger next to them, drunken person like accosts the flight attendant i haven't experienced that i've heard i've seen some yelling i didn't have a guy die on one of my flights from what uh he dropped out of heart attack during the boarding process here's another good story for you salt lake city airport sitting on the airplane air pods are in not paying attention to shit because it's a late night flight it was the last flight up um and here in calispo when you fly and you can usually get a flight that'll land around midnight so it departs salt lake at like 10 I catch motion that is far more rapid than it should be out of the corner of my eye.

Yeah. Because I'm literally zoned out. Yeah. And at that point, I'm like, huh, it's a flight attendant going back and forth. Pull out an air pod and they're having a full on medical emergency in the aisle of the airplane, about 20 rows back. This guy sits down, augers over in the aisle. There's a doctor on board, like two seats behind.

He's full on CPR. They call 911. I'm not shitting you 20 minutes later. Right. The firefighters show up, firefighter paramedics, I guess. They got to get him off the plane. They pull out a tarp. Oh, my God.

Are you kidding? Put him on the tarp and start dragging him from where he was on the plane up front. As he passes me, this man is clearly no longer alive. Right. The female passenger who was seated in the seat next to me, I think might have just experienced her first death. body. It was quite emotional for her. Less so for me. I was like, God, damn it, this whole situation just absolutely sucks. Then they worked the guy in the, what do they call it, the Jet Bridge for like 20, 30 minutes.

And it was crazy because you could hear, I was up front, I could hear him on the radio and they were trying, I think they were either talking to a hospital or a doctor to administer meds, but they couldn't make the decision on site themselves. It was like they had to call into a higher level of care. mind you at this point like this flight's going absolutely nowhere I'm already on my phone like booking a hotel for the night other people in the back

it's just Bush League shit going on like they're just kind of losing their mind I'm like listen people the move is start working on Uber get a rental car get a hotel get the hell out of here get the hell out of here but yeah full on that's about the craziest thing

that's ever and we're still at the gate we actually hadn't even pushed back so that's the craziest thing that's ever happened to be on an airplane I was coming back from Mexico and there was a a little scuffle breakout, not a physical one, but there was this kid who was like just an unruly little shit.

And this lady chirped up to the dad. So basically like get your, like, get control of your kid. It's annoying. And it was annoying. It definitely was annoying. And he responded with overwhelming fire superiority. is the only way. He went after her. I think he went after her ability to have children or like, please don't ever have children

because you're just like a wretched human being. Like he went right for like the soul of this lady. It was not a proportional response. No. It wasn't like, yep, sorry, we're all stress, retired, blah, blah, blah. Or even it wasn't like a whatever. You know, it wasn't even just like a fuck you.

Like, don't talk to me. It was like, I'm going to try to rip your insides out with my words. and she comes back with like, well, I'm infertile. And I can't even have kids. So thank you very much. And I'm just like, oh, my God. Kay, my wife, she, I think, said something.

I'm just like pressing my forehead against the screen. Like, I just don't want to do this, you know. But I think that was the only, thankfully. The story that I love about the plane is where the guy cracked open two beers, popped the slide. He was a flight attendant. Oh, yes. That man, who, what's he doing today?

I want to know that dude. He's probably out of jail. He's probably working on a fine that he's pan off. I'd imagine it's in payments. Yeah. Um, I can tell you what industry he's not working in. No.

No, definitely not. But yeah, I mean, I have had pretty, pretty easy ones. I feel bad for the flight crews who are probably just, they're just dealing with people and not the best moments of their life. Yeah. It's an interesting exercise in watching people's ability to handle stress. Yeah. Especially, because you can hear it, like, working its way through the airplane. Like, we're all in the same fucking metal tube.

Right. We're probably all late to our connections. Because this actually happens often here in Calispell. You would think, knowing that the temperatures here in the wintertime, are below freezing, that they would have upped their de-icing game. The number of fucking connections I have missed because it's like, yeah, we don't know where Bob is. And Bob's the only guy who knows how to turn that thing on.

It's like, thanks, Bob. Right. Probably a dozen. And I'm on a plane full of, let's say, 100 people. Most of them are going to miss their connections too. And the expression of that, though, that stress, they'll start getting snappy with their partners. They'll start getting snappy with other people on the plane.

And then what it will land if they think, because somehow they think in Salt Lake City Airport, especially the new one, they can go from gate A1 to like, B-50 in the three minutes before their flight boards. I'm like, good luck. You're not going to be off the fucking jet bridge. I need to go off the plane. It's like, we all need to get off the plane. Like, I'll let you go first because you're having your dark night of the soul.

This is the worst thing that's ever happened to you in your life. Yeah. But Jesus Christ, like, we're all in the same boat here. Take a breath. I mean, I don't know how many times I've landed on a plane late in Salt Lake and realize I'm not going to make it. I'm just booking another, like, just book another flight. And I get it, you know, that maybe they're going to a huge, like a wedding. Like, you know what I mean?

Like, there could be some things that are very important to you, but there is a point where things are outside of your control. You don't have to twist off at everything. It actually makes life better. Imagine that. Don't. Imagine that. Yeah.

Yeah. Get out of my way. I've got to get off. And like the entire row of people are, I'm living with my connection too. Yeah. God, we're the worst species on the planet. It really. It really is one of the way.

those things like you try not to you try to put the AirPods in and look down at your feet and how little leg room you have because the alternative is seeing people be ridiculous yeah how we got on this i don't know because you were going to explain the green bray pipeline oh right it makes all sense so circling back slightly uh yeah so basic training infantry training airborne basic is how long in the army probably like eight weeks It's got to be longer than that because I think that's what it is in the Navy. I bet you it's like 8 to 10. Yeah, it's something around there.

The way they do it for infantry is they do like basic and then you do your infantry specific training, which is only like four weeks. Okay. Which is kind of funny. So it's like I think it's like a 12 week, three-ish month kind of thing. And nothing really changes. You're just there the whole time. Then Airborne, then you go up to Bragg for something called Sopsy, special operations. to prep course.

It's actually a pretty good course in prepping you. Like, you know, it was the first time you're really like rucking hard and land nav and all of that. Then you do selection.

So, yeah, I went in in November and by July was in formation in selection, like six months in, basically. And then if you get selected,

you go to, then you start the pipeline. And that's going to be. Known as the Q course. Known as the Q course, yeah. And so when I did it, it was first we were detailed out at Robin Sage, which is the last event that you do as a student. You know, it's an unconventional warfare exercise, essentially, for a month.

And it's all about, you know, linking up with gorillas and the indig thing. So you're like a G. You're one of the indigued gorillas. So you're out there for about a month. And then you come back. All the lower enlisted people do like, like a combat leaders training course. It's basically to get your E5

per, you know, big army needs. So that's like another month. Then we started language school. So now I believe language school is at the end. But when I did it, it was then six months of language school. Which ones you get? Arabic. How fluent are you?

Today. Yeah. Ever. What was your peak? Fluentness. I mean, I spoke a shitload of Arabic over to Portland. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I have had people in, it was in Iraq specifically, in Iraqi, man, stop our dude who had been to a language course and said, and I quote, please speak English because your Iraqi is so bad that, you know, basically you're just butchering my native language, so let's just do this English. Wow. That sounds about right for, I think that. That sounds about right for most of, like, for most dudes, you know, I mean. I feel like, in essence, what he asked him was Donde esta la Biblioteca.

But, like, in Arabic, the guy's like, fuck right off. I mean, the challenging thing with Arabic is there's so many dialects. Yeah. So you learn, like, we learned modern standard Arabic, which is like old Queens English or whatever. And nobody speaks modern standard Arabic. They're either going to speak Iraqi, 11th, you know, different, wherever you're. at, you know, different, uh, Egyptian has a different flare than, you know, the Levant area. So like, it's very dialectical based. So if you're coming in here, you know, speaking Shakespeare

essentially to people. Um, thank you to all the interpreters out there, by the way, who saved our asses on the daily and actually were able to communicate effectively. Yeah. Yeah. It's in, it is pretty amazing. Like we had a term for sure, multiple. And, um, you know, it was, you know, was definitely one of those things. You'd just kind of look over and be like, okay, I'm, I'm at the end of my very short leash of language and they'd help out. Yeah.

Yeah, so that's six months of language school every day. So I was, I was okay. I was pretty good. You know, I could get by. I didn't really take to it like some people did. Some people, like, went full on, you know. Did you get any choice in your language selection? No.

Voluntled, huh? Yeah. It's based on, I, I think, you're, pre- army test scores you know the ASVAB there's the ASVAB

and then at selection actually I think you take another test I want to say you know you do your psychological testing and all that and I think there's some metric that they look at and say okay you know which had I known that I would have definitely tried to nugget out

and get like French or Spanish or something but yeah definitely get zeros on that test yeah yeah this is not professional advice for anybody listening trying to go down this pipeline I'm just saying maybe what I would have done. I mean, I was just lucky. I was just glad I didn't get Mandarin.

I mean, let's be honest. What are the, why would they even try to give you six months of Mandarin to give you a headache? I mean, come on. Yeah. Some of these languages, I mean, okay, I get it. You have to check the box, but you're wasting everybody's fucking time. You're going to have to rely on interpreters anyway. Yeah, and then you have the people that go out to DLI, like the Intel folks.

They're two years out there. You're six months and, you know, you figure the first, like, three months, you have no idea what's happening. You know, you're like, me yamo Bill, you know, like, that's like, we had a good day. If that's, you know, I could say my name and the color of my eyes. Perro as roha. Like, um. Sure. Yeah.

So, you know, but it was, it was at that time, really, it was a nice, you know, you're from, from, from. first entering to starting language school, it was a pretty aggressive year and change. So language school was awesome. You know, you could just work out, train, recover, you know, during the day it was fairly okay. You know, you're still in student status, so there's always the getting smashed just because element.

But that was pretty good. And then after that, you do, we did small unit tactics, which was, you know, six or eight weeks, I want to say, eight weeks, I think. So all patrolling and, you know, all of that stuff. Then it's, what is it, MOS phase after that. So you either do your MOS. I was an engineer sergeant, so we did a bunch of construction and demo. What's that, the X-ray? 18-Charlie.

Yeah, yeah, 18-Charlie. Delta, I think, is the only one I know. The medic. Yeah. Because we had to send our guys, or used to send our guys there. I get lost when it's like the Bravo, the Charlie, the X-ray, all that stuff. Yeah, yeah. Bravo's the weapon sergeant.

Charlie's a calm guy, right? That's Echo. Fuck. Yeah. Calm guys should be C. Charlie. I would agree. Echo engineer, except they're like in the infinite wisdom of the army. Yeah, we'll just switch it up.

Sear schools in there. some ASAT stuff, and then it's Robin Sage, and that's like a month. So all said and done, I went in in November 2010 and graduated, I think, March 12 or 13. Which one was it? It was around there. So it was a long stretch. Yeah, it's two years. From first, you know, swearing into...

And then how fast until you started packing up to go overseas? So I got to 5th. group and my team actually just got back from Afghanistan. So they all went on leave, which was a great. That was not well received on my end, but, you know, I was on a free fall team, which was cool, but the team just got back. I'm like, that's not cool. Had you been to free fall school yet? No. No. So now that's part of the pipeline, but not at the time it wasn't. Yeah. So at least they've smartened up just like the Navy did. Freefall in the teams used to be, one or two guy would get the billet to go per platoon.

Platoon in the team's traditional, the whites off side is like 16 guys. Yeah. And when I came in, like if you were in your fifth or sixth platoon, you probably were going to get to go to free fall. Oh, really? Because it was all based off of being out in Yuma.

Yeah. And they would base the billets off the number of Navy instructors that were there, which were not that many. So, I mean, it was a pretty big, like, reward at a boy to be able to go to free fall. Yeah. the teams and now it's like fuck it's like like I said buds static free fall boom into it now

it's better though because then the product at the end of it like your free fall team would actually be all free fall qualified well now was kind of the thing there was when I first got to the team there was maybe I want to say six six out of 12 and I don't even think that's not a team that's not a team no not at all we're sitting there like they're coming back you know we like put on the put on the projector, you know, the GoPro footage and, you know, reviewing an AAR and it was like, this is cool. Like, for you. But half the guys are not free fall qualified.

So, yeah, I think that's definitely an improvement. Yeah. For sure. I think it is one of the things, though, like, you know, there was, does everybody need to be free fall qualified? Ah, that's, you know, that's. I can see the argument for it. To my knowledge, the real world application of a free fall jump, I think it's less than half a dozen. And that's across J-Soc too.

And a few of those jumps were literally just getting out of a low-flying aircraft to get on to either a vessel or a fob. And so I'm counting that as like real world. But it was just for the to be able to deploy on their, you know, pager status. Yeah. And just pre-stage somewhere else. Right. I do know of a couple that have been, that have kicked off for real. And there were generally injuries involved with that.

Imagine. I mean, it's dangerous. It can be the most dangerous thing you do in the execution of a combat operation. Yeah. Which from a risk perspective, it's like, hey, guys, let's do the most dangerous thing up front before we even get on target. You guys all get with that? Is there any other way? Right.

I mean, I think, you know, one of the things they always said was like, we want to get more officers through. so that they can understand the capabilities and this and that. And it's like, yeah, I hear what you're saying, but the amount of people in group for everybody to be free fall qualified. Yeah. When you have...

Let alone free fall current. For sure. And then you have teams, like the team next to us, is a dive team. You know, so I was 3-4, 3-5 is a dive. team. So like they're doing, you know,

their maritime stuff, the transport team or the other teams, pilot teams, all the different types of teams, there's one free fall team per company. Yeah. So like, but I think it's also very much keeping up with like what everybody else is doing thing.

A little phomo, if you will. Yeah. You got to justify the defense budget, man. Like you need it somewhere. I mean, yeah. So, so yeah, so that was, so right after getting a group or getting of my team. We didn't really have anything. And then we got Afghanistan again. But then that actually got switched. We got pulled into this interagency tasking and then got wrapped up into

that world. And then, you know, did all of our all of our stuff for that. How many? So let's see. So you basically three years active, well, not active, post-year training pipeline. Okay. What was the I mean for a lot So I would imagine most people Listen to the podcast

Have some understanding of military and retirement It's 20 in a wake-up call Right Unless you medically retire out Five years is about the time period Where I'd say a good majority of people Have gotten taste for it They decide to get out

Yeah 10 years once people cross that threshold More often than not They're going to kind of keep carrying the football Past the 20 Mm-hmm What was going through your head when you were approaching reenlistment? Family.

Yeah, purely based off the family decision. 100%. Yeah. Which fucked with me, man. That is, you know, I'm going to be very clear, like, I was good, but I wasn't that, like, I was good for somebody who spent three years at group good. That's not that good. You know what I mean? Well, in comparison to, let's say, a traditional military, and this is not saying anything negative.

about soldiers of any kind. I'm just talking about the additional time, money, training. The capability is substantially higher. 100%. Yeah. And again, I have absolutely nothing but respect for people who, like, and I know them. They're like, I just want to go be a grind. It's like fucking awesome, man.

Like, love you guys to death. And I'm not saying anything negative about that. There's a capability gap. For sure. And there's plenty of people who chose not to go into special operations who would likely outperform most due. in, you know, patrolling, you know, small unit tactic stuff, you know, knowledge, a lot of that stuff, you know. So, yeah, and, you know, I don't like the, the elitism sort of among the military is always something that I didn't particularly enjoy just because I think that's dangerous if you start thinking your shit doesn't stink, you know.

I think that's dangerous inside of the military or out. I don't care where, what you do for living if you start thinking like that. you might want to start looking for the door. Yeah. And I think, unfortunately, there's a lot of that because you're getting all the gear and blah, blah, blah, and now with social media, you know, everybody's posting cool guy pictures,

and it's like, what is happening here? You know, so there's plenty of more conventional soldiers, Marine Airmen, whomever, who are certainly at a caliber that could contribute to a team. They just didn't go through the pipeline. So, you know, but at that time, I was doing well and, you know, excelling and finally kind of getting a feel for like, all right, this is, you know, getting my kind of bearing set and all this. But, man, that was a long five years of being away and not ever really seeing family.

I didn't really. You didn't live with her. No. I did not know that. That is a dynamic that is tough to grasp unless you've lived the military family dynamic. Yeah. And it was, I think it was harder for her because there isn't that, you know, completely removed. You know, there isn't that, there wasn't any of that support. There wasn't really any of that recognition either where we live. We don't live in a military town in Jersey. People don't care. I shouldn't say that, but it's not in your face. They just don't know. Yeah, it's not a military town. You know, it's just not in their purview. So that was tough. So yeah, it came down to the point where I was like, well, this is either it's either going to be continuing with, you know, doing the deed or and likely, you know, having that come as a detriment to the family or being with, you know, being with the family.

I chose family. How long did it take you to make that decision? I think I always knew I was going to. You know, it wasn't one of those decisions that I felt like I had to analyze. it was just, I felt it was the right thing to do. Like I knew, like I knew where my path was headed.

I had a couple, you know, interesting opportunities pop up that were like, okay, yeah, this is what we all want to try to do and go towards and stuff. And I kind of knew, like, that would definitely mean even less time. Yeah. Even less.

So if I wanted to stay married and be a presence in my, my kid's life. The two couldn't, they couldn't coexist. How did group receive your desire to not realist? It didn't really go over that well.

Shocker. Towards the end, yeah. It didn't really go over that well. My first boss, though, he was super supportive of it. And was like, yeah, man, that's what we all say. Like, hey, family.

How long now did you have to declare? I don't think I even had to. I think within... Gotta give him some... Because you have to reenlist within what? X amount of day? It's like 30 or 90, right? So literally up until the day before I signed out,

they were... My team started out of time. He was a great dude. But he was like, hey, we'll fly you overseas to re-enlist. Get you a little tax-free, actually. Get you a little tax-free. Get you little money. You know?

Get you little cash. Like, we got good things going. You're a good dude. You know, I've been here, blah, blah, bah. experience, you know, so it was, it was very, the carrot was dangling. I'm surprised they gave you that much time. I feel like, because didn't you have to out process? Yeah.

Yeah. I feel like for some reason, I think in the teams, you got to give them at least 30 days. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was probably like, I was, I came into that, it was probably like six months. Okay. Yeah, because oftentimes they'll then bump you out of that operational role and put you somewhere purely administrative. Yeah.

can seem actually very punitive as the person that that's happening to. Yeah. And I can actually see both sides of that because the military, as you know, is a rock that's going to keep rolling downhill. And if you're a pebble that whips off of that, they're going to smack another pebble on there and they have to. So yeah, it's, yeah. They're like, you can't leave. We're relying upon you. Yeah. Okay, I'm going to leave. Fuck you then. Next heartbeat. Get in here. Look, you're a human. You know, you're not replaceable. And then it's, yeah. That was one of the harder lessons for me to learn getting out. The, I mean, the SEAL community, right? The SEAL teams, the damn duty stations that

you serve at have team in the name of it. And there is an emphasis to want to retain knowledge. And I totally get that. Yeah, of course. I mean, there was a year, I think, where 393 people graduated buds and 394 people got out of the teams, which people would say, oh, that's only a net loss of one. Heartbeat. Right. Let's roll into that. years of experience and the knowledge. I mean, we're talking decades, centuries, actually. So I get it, but it can certainly, it sucks when you come to the realization where you have been told that you're irreplaceable and then you realize how replaceable you actually

were. My buddy of mine, a buddy of mine actually, Mike, the guy we also played paintball with, I remember early on. So he really took me under his wing. Is this a dude I ran into in the gym in Texas? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Awesome dude. He really took me under my... He was a captain going through the course.

Like, I was at E4. Like, I had no business, you know, hanging out with him. If it was a traditional situation, obviously, I wouldn't. But I lived with him during the course for a bit. And he really kind of helped groom me. And he told me, like, I think early on, like, yeah, man, like, the big green machine is just going to keep on rolling. So, you know, that's the deal. And, yeah.

And you think about what it does, there's really no other way, you know. And especially in the transition process, that's kind of where it's like we're seeing some major deficiencies of the machine in flicking those little pebbles off. Or not assisting them off, you know, providing an on-ramp. I mean, I don't know about how it is in the Army. I think the TAP program, the transition assistance program, I think there's an S on there. I don't know what the S means, though. I think it was a two-week process in the Navy,

of which I was required to go to about 12 hours of that. But that is, if you were to put it in terms of schools, one of the shortest schools that I would have attended. And that was supposed to be my bridge between in and out. And the bridge between just being out and then in, from a boot camp perspective, was 4X that, let alone the pipeline to get into the community. But I also don't know how the military,

I think the military could do a better job, but I don't have the solution for it either. I don't think it's a military thing. I think part of bridging the gap between being in the military and going into the civilian sector, whatever, I think you need to start massaging that relationship with civilian providers, et cetera.

I don't think the military is going to be the solution provider for that. They're certainly not tooled for it. Actually, if you think about it, Did you go through the TAP program? Were most of the people that presented civilians? Yeah, I think so. I think most of them.

And it's a contracted out thing, you know, and so here's how you write a resume. Here's how you open up a bank account. Like, you know, and you have some people retiring after 30 years of doing stuff, and you have some kid who pissed hot also going through it. So it's very much the lowest common denominator, but I think the renegration going from what you did or didn't do or whatever. you know, into what does this look like after service. Personally, for me, that was, that was, that was, that was incredibly hard. Because on the one hand, I was, I was, I felt like I was quitting the team.

I had, I was able to perform. It was, you know, good, blah, blah, blah. Was, was kind of really getting the ropes, getting the feel, feel like, okay, I'm, I'm a contributing asset now a little bit more than I was. and then it's just like out we go and so now it's like well now what do you do you know did you know what you wanted to do when you were looking

at getting out or you just knew it wasn't the army no I had no idea I had no idea you know so there was K at the gym yep so that was kind of like oh I'll just do that I wasn't really interested in going into finance I did that already

where else can I get the sense of purpose and meaning and belong I didn't know, you know. And so that's where I started like my own little company, small little business, but... But that wasn't right out of the gates though, was it? Not really. It was a... No, it was probably about six months after.

I was gonna go back in, actually. So I didn't... I didn't unpack my bag, like one bag, you know? Yeah. I didn't unpack that for like the better part of the year. So you got out. had never lived with Kay. Yeah.

So you get out. Hopefully you did like Nicholas Cage when he went to the bar and Conair and you did like sea bag. What the hell do they call it in the army? It's not a sea bag. What would it be? Duffel bag. Duffel bag. Which is exactly the same fucking thing.

Yeah, it's a sea bag. Yeah, you're there ribboned out. I mean, hopefully you didn't have to like rip a dude's throat out or whatever that. But like that's how in my mind I pictured you showing up to the gym. I should have. Class A's. I should have. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, with a beard, untouched, you know, just like. No, but you like, you coordinate it. Somebody plays like a killer, like, theme song as you come around the corner. You do it at sunset, so you're backlit, of course. If I did that, I think my, I think, I think it would have had a better time. I'm just, I'm trying to think about the stark transition from having never lived with your wife. Yeah. And the kids.

And being in the army, detaching for. from a unit that you feel like, you're like, fuck, I'm quitting on this unit. Yeah. Because it is amazing how they'll help you feel like that if you want to. Yeah. And even if you don't want to, that's huge.

So geographically, you're moving. Yeah. Psychologically, you're moving. Yeah. How was that first few months? Terrible. It was terrible. I mean, but it was again, it was this weird polarity

of, I love the fact that I can have coffee with, you know, my wife. and chat. And I don't have to like and there's there. It's like every time we saw each other when I was in the hourglass was flipped. As soon as you land or as soon as she landed,

it was like, okay, a four day or a three day. I'm saying, what do you think the maximum amount of time in any one stretch you guys were able to spend together? I probably took about three weeks of leave after graduating before PCSing after the Q-course. So it was like Yeah it was like three weeks You know and so of course you try

There's like there's the phases of it There's like this is awesome It's a party And then it's like Okay I want to be like normal You know do normal things And then there's that adjia And that stress of like

Well I need to prepare for leaving again Yeah you can see the sand For sure For sure The hourglass Yeah So yeah so it was this polarity of Hey this is awesome

That I'm home and everything And there's also that pull of like I don't want to be here my heart's kind of bodies in a different place and um so that was that was definitely a tough one you know I remember pulling up to the house thinking like oh fuck like this is like there's no this was like a one way drive and then of course you start beating yourself up over that because it's like you know you've got yeah I do have family I do have you know a lot of blessings and here I am kind of A lot of conflicting ideologies there.

Quite a few. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Quite a few. So that's where, you know, my buddy, Mike, the same guy, I was messaging with him and he's like, hey, we're going to Afghanistan. We need a dude.

You want to get back in? Oh, what a dickhead, Mike. He's just a little bobber just sitting there floating. You're just down there like, I'll just take a little bite. Yeah. And he's just waiting to rip that thing as hard as he can. Fucker. So I was like, yes, thank you.

I'm going to go do that. And I was having another OGA thing working as well. And it was like, good. This is, I've got, you know, contract thing. Because he was in National Guard. Yeah. So it was perfect. What were Kay's thoughts on this?

So I floated the idea and was like, this is going to be great. There's this, there's that. This is why it all makes a lot of sense. So first you condition the battle space. For sure. It wasn't not. It was not transparent at all, you know? She didn't see through it at all.

And she was like, all right, yeah, you know, if you want to go do that, that's fine. But, you know, if you're not able to be home now and, like, basically honor what decision you made, when will you ever be able to move on? Never. Exactly. And she was like, just don't basically, like, just don't fucking lie to me. Like, if you're going to say, I'm going to go do this and do it, but don't, don't, like, just be honest about it. direct about it. And so she called me on my shit. And, and, uh, and she was right. And she was 100% right, you know, which then entered the next phase of, okay, now this is like, what the fuck am I going to do?

And that's where it was not an easy, it was not easy for years, dabbled in the level one's, uh, staff for a bit. Um, how was that for you? It was an honor to be part of the, the, the, It was an honor to be part of something that had significant influence in my life. Yep. It was not what I wanted to continue to do. And that says nothing about the people and all of this. I just, for me, it was not.

I kind of beat to a little bit of a different drum as well with some things. I really enjoyed some of the people that I worked with. Yeah, for sure. When I was working for CrossFit, and it got. to a point for me where it was it was not about the vast majority of the people was a interpersonal it wasn't even an interpersonal was a personal conflict that I did a very poor job of expressing and maybe maybe the outcome would have been different if I had been more vocal um I don't think so given the the individuals that were at play at that point but yeah it was

time for me to move on as well yeah yeah and I think honestly for the benefit of you know the participants as well like it wasn't I wasn't in it you know and I was also like not even at that time I also really wasn't even really looking at my own shit so where my space like where my space was you know wasn't really I was a I was a contributor to that relationship as well and so you know that whole that whole situation as a larger situation certainly there was some points of about it that I that did not leave a good taste in my mouth and then when those things kind of you know come up it's like well I'm not going to tolerate that so yeah if I could go back in time if I had a time machine I actually wish I would have done more in certain moments was actually a point where

a few points in my life where I definitely let myself down and learned the lesson from that and actually you know when I when I was vocal about the very, very small portion that I was vocal about. Some people push back on that. You know what? They're totally right. Because I should have done more in the moment, and I didn't. And I wish I would have.

But I can rationalize it. Oh, you know, I didn't want to lose my job, this side or the other. But the reality is I should have spoke up, which is why I said what I eventually did and what I will do if ever needed to in the future. Leave it at that. Yeah. Understood. Say no more.

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, so one of the, one of the things for me also was like, I saw that as an opportunity to leverage to help it build my own side thing. Yeah. You're talking about between the years? Yeah. And I didn't like, I just didn't like that. Because there are people who, you know, obviously care. And the work that was put into what that course is, it's like, it's super impressive. Can't take obviously anything away from. Totally agree. from that. That has changed so many lives, myself included. Same here. Like, super grateful for what the role Crosswood has played in my life. It would not be here without it. And that's how ultimately I met my wife. So, like... I've said that from the beginning. The methodology is absolutely pure.

Yeah. It was much late, you know, I think they were building the airplane as it was taken off. And I think it was much later on that perhaps some of the deficiencies, in engineering showed themselves. But the methodology, I don't like working out much. I really enjoyed doing jujitsu, but when I do work out, to this day,

still following the same methodology. Yeah, and I think for me, you know, it was one of those things. Like I had, I wanted to, like one of the things that I was always curious about more was, you know, when Crossa talks about intensity to the limit of your physiological

and psychological tolerances. But it's that latter one. And there it is. And there it is. It's that latter one. It really is. Yeah. And so where are we, what are we doing with that?

And that's really where my passion was as well and my desire to explore that. I frankly don't care if you're pulling early on a med ball clean. So the psychological component of it was very much more in line with where I was interested in going. Yeah. And so to really just use the level one, to use that platform as just a leveraging chip. I felt like wasn't really I didn't want to do it There's plenty of people to do

I think it's fair and honorable And yeah I mean I don't know Sometimes I think about that Like the principal grenade Sometimes like Jumping on that thing It does sort of

You know It can set you back in some ways But if you think about The people that mean the most to you in your life Are they the ones who would throw it at somebody else Or jump on it Right They're going to jump on it right

Because they're moral people And they have integrity and I don't know. I've been through phases of my life where that's like, hmm, self-worth is determined by the amount of money in your bank account and how many flashy things that you have

that you'll never use and immediately realize it's not an asset, it's fucking liability. And I finally have gotten myself to a point where money is the last thing I even consider. I'm so much more concerned about why people make the choices that they do and not, I don't want to be around people who are unwilling to jump on the principal grenade when the time is right.

You don't need to martyr yourself. Right. But I want people in my life, my inner circle that are willing to do that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's part of what drives people to, you know, forming these cohesive units also and doing good things. It's like there's like you don't have to train that. It's just kind of part of this who you are component.

Yeah. And, you know, navigating your own path. they're going to bounce against some of these guardrails that are like, no, this probably isn't it. So, yeah, so I left that. How'd you come up with the idea for between the years? So the first time I heard the quote was obviously a Glassman quote, talking to, I think, whatever, Greg Amundsen,

about the greatest adaptation that CrossFit really does is that which occurs between the ears. I'm like, yes, that is what I think from an athlete as well. Not necessarily about CrossFit, but in my experience, any sort of physical endeavor training for anything. And at the time, I was an all-American soccer player in college. And I had played at a high level my whole life. We should clarify American soccer. American soccer, yes.

Yes, American soccer. Don't want any of our European friends or Australians to get upset. Correct. Yes, thank you for the check. And so, yeah. So but I love training, you know, because there was, you, you go to these spaces in your mind, in your body or whatever that, that are kind of transcendental. And so when I heard that, I was like, oh, yeah, this is, and this is like, right when I first started reading about Cross, I was like, this is awesome. So that was always sort of a seed that was planted. And then when I was, when I got out of the army, I wanted to have something. I wanted to create something that was shared experiences, you know, that I felt beneficial to, you know, that I felt beneficial to.

have learned, you know, privileged to be able to experience and share them. So I started, I just had an event. I was like, okay, meet me at the gym at 10 o'clock at night. That's it. And people showed up. And I had them, we just did like a little evolution, you know, like a little physical thing. And I was like, well, this is like a, this is like, you know, between the ears, it's like kind of what we're training. And then from events, I just, had more and more events and then kind of transition to more daily sort of situations of training, mindset, mental health, all of that to eventually now finishing on my degree to become a therapist. No shit.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm assuming the test bed for this, like you mentioned, hey, meet me at the gym. It was probably on the clients at the gym already. Yeah. It started at, for sure. Yeah. I mean, of course, if you're going to fuck with people, the best people to fuck with are your friends.

without a doubt. Yeah. Yeah. Hey guys, meet me at 10. I'm gonna try some things on you. May or may not work. One dude showed up in like khakis and I'm like, what do you, and he's like, uh. I thought it was a fight club.

Yeah, I think he thought it was a drinking club. It was like a skull and cross. It was like, you know, very sort of not. Yeah. Terrible for business, by the way. You know, like, but it was fun. It was a good time, you know. At least I had a good time.

But I'm not like yelling and screaming at people. Yeah. Like, hey, here's this opportunity to challenge yourself. You say you want a challenge. We learn through challenge. Here we go. And we'll just facilitate that. How'd you explain to him the disconnect that I think people have between physical toughness

and mental toughness, that aspect of the between the ears? Because I'm assuming your messaging has probably changed over time as you've refined it. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. How do you teach and reinforce that to people? Honestly, through honesty. I think that that toughness component,

you know it's yes like doing hard things and being able to withstand all of that but like i think if you were to boil it down it does come down to honesty am i going to be honest with myself in this moment to be able to take either that next step or know when it's like i got to walk away from this you know and so being honest with oneself is there's like layers to that and so through you know exercise through movements through you know obviously like individual coaching and whatnot therapy that's sort of what we're always trying to get down to is this atomic level of honesty where we can have the awareness to say like yeah this is what's true to me and i can follow through with with an action you know and i think that's where for folks who never check in with themselves

who never are honest with themselves and who just kind of follow the script probably somebody else's script or do what somebody else is telling them living that inauthentic life may get you through a couple things but then you're going to hit that point where that doesn't work anymore and for me personally like a lot of the messaging that's changed has also been a reflection of my own my own journey too you know with with that honesty like I'm good I'm good I got it together blah blah blah and then you're like yeah this is not you get you hit that point where it doesn't do you think it's easier to lie to yourself or other people Oh, other people.

Yeah. Yeah. Without a doubt. Without a doubt. Yeah. And that's... Because, like, can you truly lie to yourself? God, you'd be a fucked up person if you could.

If you could somehow compartmentalize an argument to yourself and not realize that you... You know what I mean? I mean, really, yeah. I bet you there's some social pathic people out there that could do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's really easy to externally like, I got it. I'm good to be the bulletproof, waterproof. And at the end of the day, I actually, I shouldn't say it's really easy. I think it's probably common to be the bulletproof, waterproof guy, or gal, crumbling on the inside. Yeah. And a lot of it, I think, unfortunately, happens in the little things, like the daily little things that are present throughout all of, like,

all of life, you know? And so simple conversations, simple actions with people, like the little, you know, the little lies we kind of tell ourselves or the inconvenient truths we try to believe and rationalize, those add up. There's an, they, they accumulate. You know, and I think if we strip it all down, there's, there's, yeah, that getting to the root of, like, toughness,

somebody who's brutal, who's truly honest with themselves end the situation in which they're operating in and can have the courage to say what they need to say or do what they need to do. Like, that's a form of strength that I think, you know. So I have to assume when you started between the years, you weren't thinking what was going to terminate and you finishing a degree to become a therapist.

Right. When did that happen? When did that you make that realization? So I started doing events, which... Like, give me a... overview of what you would do an event. Obviously not the IP-specific stuff. No, it is fine.

Yeah. So the one event that really was a watershed event was people showed up at the gym at like 10 o'clock at night. I had staged rucksacks with like sandbags in them for each person weighed out to what I thought their abilities were. And this was like a pretty athletic forward group, you know, coming in. So 150 pounds? Yeah, right around.

Don't ever, ever do that for anybody listening. Yeah, got to know. About 10% of your body weight is generally good to destroy yourself, maybe 20. Yeah, and I think, and this was a solid group. Like this was, I knew who they, I knew all of them personally. And so it was a mix, you know, men and women. And so, you know, they showed up when we did a little pack out, a little layout kind of situation, you know, dialing up some of the stress. But I'm not like, I'm not yelling at people.

I'm not doing the like in your face screaming, spraying people you know, with water or yelling at them. Like that's just not my style. I also think it's the most ineffective. Yeah. For me, at least it is.

Yeah, for me too. When I went through, I look at the selection courses that I've gone through. The instant people started yelling me, I turned them off. Bingo. But if they talk and just a normal tone of voice, I pay attention.

Yeah. And what I found, the number one greatest stressor is a stopwatch. a stopwatch and perhaps an unrealistic expectation or timeline that has absolutely no chance of being achieved. You may know that as the person with a stopwatch, but if you want to twist people off, give them a timeline with a set punishment

should they not achieve that timeline. And you'll see the wheels come off. Yeah, I agree with you too, because the loudest people are the easiest to tune out because at a certain point, it's just all this, but the person who walks up to you and looks you in the eye And it's like, hey, so check it out. What are you thinking?

And then you're just like, da, like just start yelling at me, please. Like, it's easier to just do that. So anyway, so, you know, went there, walked him outside, got into a van, I had rented a van, drove like 20 minutes to this trailhead. And I had staged ammo crates at varying weights. We got on this trailhead.

And I was like, all right, we're going to go that way. It's middle of fucking night in October. And they got to figure it. That was the only guidance. So, you know, people are coming together, shared sort of suffering sort of situation. With an unknown duration in end state. Completely unknown. Like I would.

Again, another way to really drastically induce stress is to not let people know how long the evolution is. Yeah. Because then you will consume yourself. I think I want to say. They didn't start running. I think the loads are a little bit too heavy, but it was an aggressive start. Probably far too aggressive for the distance they were about to do. It was a 12-mile movement.

It was a 12-mile movement. You know, and so we started at, we'll just say, what, 11 o'clock. We finished at like 8 a.m.-ish, you know? And that was, one of the individuals had a real powerful experience. And he had a, he was a second impact syndrome. survivor from high school almost died second impact syndrome concussions two like two concussions in like as many weeks and then got hit again it was like down had to get airlifted off of high school football field like oh shit yeah yeah

Kevin saw him powerful story and that was it his athletic career was done from that point on but he continued to try to just be that tough dude and it and it and it and it fucked them throughout his life, you know, with different injuries and this and that. He had a, he got like knee surgery, like four or five weeks before this thing, maybe. And I didn't know this, all right. I didn't, so I loaded, I put like 40. He didn't fill that, check that box in the questioner. So, so updates is like, have you had recent surgeries or?

He had like, you know, 40 pounds in this rock. He's a, he's a fit guy. And he, it's like 2 o'clock to morning. And he's like barely able to walk and crying. He's like, hey, I just. I don't think I can keep doing this. And I had been watching them throughout. And it was clearly like an issue.

And I'm thinking, fucking A, like, we're going to have to extract them. But like, I don't want them to not be able to walk. And so I said, yeah,

like, hey, you're done. So, you know, magically, you know, K, figured out the trail situation.

I think she almost put the truck in the river, but that's a separate story. So pulled them off. And, and it, and then he sees everybody finish. Because, like,

we weren't driving him home. We're out in the middle of nowhere. Yeah. and he sees that the rest of the crew finished and he didn't. But what he learned about it was like that was the exact experience you needed of realizing like what's more like you can continue to try to be tough quote unquote and continue to make the same mistake over and over and over again or you can be honest with yourself and say hey these are my limitations and these might still be my goals beyond my limitations. And so there was like he had it was a super powerful experience and wrote. like a nice note afterwards. And then I kind of kept doing that.

And then the breakthroughs that people were happening or the challenges that people were bringing up were heavy. Like we were unlocking things. And then there was like different, you know, a little bit more intense. Through the physical activity, you were unlocking mental things.

Yeah. Yeah. The physical movement was stirring up some stuff that either was pushed way the fuck down or they didn't even really know. and it started trending towards trauma, like accessing some trauma. Like repressed trauma?

Yeah. Yeah. Or like just deep-seated attitudes towards oneself that were presented to them. And, yeah, you find your limitations. You see yourself, you see maybe, you know, that honesty piece, and that's kind of part of the messaging throughout these guided events.

And so people were like asking me questions and looking to work together, and it was getting, towards like this is no longer facilitating an experience. This is like dealing with a human life with long history of stuff. So I started, you know, kind of educating myself on therapy, therapeutic modalities, you know,

trauma work, that's a big one. And then I was like, look, if I'm gonna continue doing this and started working people and, you know, having some good results, I think I need to be ethically and professionally prepared. And so that then kind of led to look and to get my master's of social work and doing the therapy thing.

It's amazing, and I saw this when I was a Bud's instructor, how powerful the mind is, that guy who had just had knee surgery, who clearly should not have been rocking. If you're listening, sir, kudos to you, but also you're a dumbass. But it speaks to my point, the power of the mind. You could literally will yourself into breaking yourself

or detrimental performance for the rest of your life. That's how powerful the whatever it is that's going on between your ears is. It is. I've heard it said before that they know more about the surface of the moon than they do about the human brain. I don't doubt it. I don't doubt it either. I mean, when you think about also how people can confront and overcome things that probably should not be. Like you're like, okay, that's like a miracle, essentially.

Yeah. Or how people can be, myself included, imprison yourself through the same organ. Like the range of the mind, back to the point again, like what are these psychological tolerances we're talking about? And when you combine movement as well, like different intensities have different influences in different brain areas.

So it's not like this brain is just this master and commander. body is like structure and muscles. Like it is a very integrated system that we're part of. And then there's that whole thing of like your soul and this who you are. Like that's not just like what you do or anything like that. And what's that all about? So you start having these experiences or you start doing, you know, for example, different movements or different levels of intensity with a little bit of dosing or triggering

or guiding to just kind of orienting in a direction and then and then execute. that, things come up, you know? And so... What do you mean by dosing? So, for example, if you take like an echo bike, like the assault bike or the echo bike or something. I just describe that as the most halacious contraption on the face of the earth.

Yes. They're like, what is that? I was like, it's a device that will give you as much as you want. It's one of the few devices that what you put into it is what you get. Yeah. It's just a fan. No big deal.

Some pedals. That's it. And I don't know what they call. And you can use your arms. Yeah. You know, like, what's there a complaint about? And you could, like, just sit there on a nice summer day and cool yourself off. Or you can almost kill yourself.

Yeah. And you can find yourself on that thing in a way that, you know, so I create a workout for some folks. And basically it's like, you know, 20 seconds as hard as you can, 40 seconds easy. But on the 20 seconds as hard as you can, you're really trying to, like, feel your entire body. and just also like not turn your mind off, but get out of the analytical realm. Yeah. And just allow whatever to come up to come up.

Be more experiential realm? Yeah, 100%. Experience it and through the body. And so that's like going to be a heavy dose. And then in the 40 seconds of rest or just recovery, just kind of like just observe what the fuck is going on. I thought you might have been dosing as in external substances. No, although there is that.

So. Yeah. I have talked to a lot of guys from my old job who have gone the very, well, I'm speaking for them a little bit, the very heavy dosage route where they actually go somewhere to a retreat and spend time. I had Amber and Marks Capone on. I know you recently did something with them. And a lot of guys actually have talked about microdosing as well.

That's actually a world I have zero experience with. And quite frankly, I'm terrified of. Maybe it's because I've watched too many movies where, like, you eat a piece of a mushroom and then you're, you know, shitting in a diaper at a Wendy's. I don't know why that was the analogy that I just used. Where'd you get the diaper? I don't know. It's just, I'm just speaking my truth, Bill. Hey, Andy.

Would you like to speak more about? No, I don't know where that came from. But obviously, so I don't know anything about it, but the number of positive experiences has been very surprising to me. Yeah. It was not something that I would have guessed. Yeah. In January, I did a retreat through vets. Why did you want to do that?

I have a history of being very depressed. From, like, childhood on? Yeah. Yeah. So, like, depression, I would say, has probably been my, like, my hardest obstacle to engage with. How does that manifest itself in you? Because, and I asked that question slightly selfishly

because I don't think, I've certainly had highs and lows, and I was talking about somebody, or talking about this with somebody recently. I feel like for me, my highs are not that high and my lows are not that low. Yeah. I'm relatively middle of the road. There have been some lows that were much,

deeper and I experienced more of those when I was going through a very extended divorce. But most of the time, I'm not going to say I have a muted emotional response, but I'm kind of just like, hey, I like having one tire on each side of the line. So I don't think I've ever experienced depression. And I have talked to quite a few people who have been crippled by it. And I'm just curious, like I said, selfishly what that experience was like. or how it manifested in you. For me, I go numb. Like, I'll just completely shut off.

No joy in life. No interest really in doing anything. How would you reverse that cycle when you were younger? I think sports. So I felt a sense of peace when I was playing sports. There was a freedom. There was like an, like, an, expressive element. I was like a angry athlete, which was part of why I was really good because of

the physicality of, you know, of soccer. I know it's not like, you know, traditionally the most physical sport, although it's pretty damn physical. But then if you have somebody who's like going to deliver, you're probably going to go if you have skill to go with it. So I had, I think sports provided me this experience of peace and like flow zone kind of a thing that

bled over into working out throughout college you know and then after college and then the military was like sort of a another kind of well it's crazy for that physically active yeah and so I kind of dealt with all of that

through a physical realm where do you doing it intentionally or do you know i don't i don't think so that's the thing yeah like i didn't know what i was really i didn't really know at the time what was happening either and so now uh with with the depression it's like just not wanting you know to do anything um and it's not even like not wanting to do do anything it's it's it's feeling as if you're not living like when when i have a when i'm like deep in it it's just feeling like i'm dead and that's that's How long does that last?

I don't know with the long... Honestly, like, over the past few years when it's been the worst, it's just kind of been the state. The long... It's almost as if, you know, and there's like a storm clouds, dark clouds rolling in. But then there's that little hole where some sunlight gets through. That's kind of what some of my mental health situation has been with, like, with the, And there's, you know, question, is it depression or is it like a bipolar situation, you know, honestly, from a diagnostic standpoint, I'm less interested in what the name is.

And so looking to, looking to get help, looking to get, you know, some brain thing. I also grew up. And, you know, I think the thing about Marcus's story that really sounded like an echo to my own was the amount of head injuries as a kid. and concussions and stuff like that. So, you know, there's other traumas and whatnot. Everybody deals with adversity to varying degrees, but it's like this isn't a choice. I'm not, I don't want to be like this, but what's going on?

I can't imagine anybody who would want to feel that way. No, because it's awful. And you see, you know, for me, one of the most agonizing things is seeing the very reasons and the justifications and the evidence for why my life is good in my external reality. and internally just being dead. Did you notice that more out of the military?

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. That was, and that's where then it was like, how am I going to,

how am I going to resolve this, you know? I didn't really want to take, I didn't want to do the medication route. But physical fitness and mental health, right? That's like a thing that, hey, people, you know, if you're fit, do more exercise. good for your mental health. And while I agree, it can be beneficial for your mental health. I don't think it addresses any underlying, I don't know, the correct words, factors or whatever the

locus of whatever that mental health may, struggle or issue may be coming from. I agree. Yeah. So, and I think it's like, because I've been, fancy myself as a fit individual, super, you know. Yeah, your shirtless pictures disgust me. well you know I think they call this thirst traps thirst traps I saw that term on Instagram the other day I'm not quite sure about it yet I'll look it up after this maybe incorrectly used

I'm gonna have to look into that yeah maybe that's what it'll get the maybe that's what it'll get the likes I think that's why people do that say it ain't so but yeah so you know I was kind of like well I'm super fit like I can do you know I anything physical

like I can I like my chances to be able to at least like try it but my physical fitness is going up and my mental health is going down what's going on here you know and so I think that's part of where in the work with between the ears and now also there are different types of modalities physically that you can

create and share with people that do have different, you know, implications on your, on your nervous system, on your brain, and kind of getting systems aligned. I think about us as, like our system as like a stool, like a three-legged stool. The legs of the stool are your physical, your mental, and you're emotional. Now I think recently the fourth one that I'll add is like certainly a spiritual element, which I'll talk about that in a second with my psychedelic experience. but previously, like, those three legs of the stool.

Now, if one of those legs is three times longer than the other, like, there's a problem. And the purpose of those legs is to work together to support whoever is sitting on that stool. It's not just for nice stools of the leg. It's to serve a function of supporting you and who you want to be. And so, you know, from the mental, emotional, physical line,

they all have to work together. There is obviously this, you know, synergy with them. And unfortunately, the things that sometimes get us very, very fit are only one component of that. And they come at a detriment to others or ways of thinking. You know, they can serve very well for one purpose, but at a detriment to the others. And so it's interesting you say that my fiancé is a black belt in Jiu-Jitsu, and she teaches a lot of people.

And she'll talk about, it's very, Jiu-Jitsu is interesting. And I say that in the sense of how many people have we both seen who, when they found CrossFit, it became dogmatic and almost religious to them in a sense. Yeah. And they started using it almost as a therapy. Yeah. But to your point, it's not addressing everything in totality.

In Jiu-Jitsu, she has said, said the same things. Like some people will get addicted to this because they're actually using it as a coping mechanism and an outlet to probably not deal with what it is that they should deal with. They're just pouring themselves into it physically. But again, it goes back to that doesn't actually address the root cause of the issue. Yeah. And even some therapies aren't going to do that either, you know. And so everybody needs coping mechanisms. That's, that's, especially if you're doing any trauma work with someone. If you start diving into the trauma work without checking in with, hey, what

healthy coping mechanisms do you have? I love Jiu-Jitsu. I go, okay, great. Here, check it out. When we're doing our work together, like every Tuesday, is that when you go to class, Tuesday, Thursday? Make sure you keep going, because that's going to be a positive, healthy outlet to deal with what's most likely going to come up. You have to build the scaffolding if you're going to take people up to the edge. Yeah, like you need that. You know, otherwise you're just, that's incredibly unsafe, especially, and

from a clinical standpoint too, which led into like, okay, wanting to get more into this therapeutic, non-conventional therapies as well, that's something that's going to have to be addressed. But if somebody is, if somebody is only coping, yeah, they're not really healing. Yeah. You know, and that's, and that's a,

that's up to the individual also. And I think as a clinician, as a therapist, as a coach, as a friend, as a family member, there's a certain degree of not being able to control, somebody that you have to accept and that could be incredibly challenging especially when the love when someone you love is when you're like you need to heal enough of the fucking coping you need to address your shit and they're like no I'm just gonna keep doing it or whatever that's their path you know to walk how did the depression

I don't even know how to ask the question what did Kay have to say about it would perhaps be the broadest what what impact did it have between you guys especially if you started feeling this more post-military which was the longest amount of time that you guys had been together. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, she has been an amazing support. And she's not an idiot either. She knows she sees it.

I concur with that statement. She sees it, you know, and she just wanted me to get help, you know. And it was actually... How did she express that to you? So she's a doer. She's a fixer. She takes action. And so, you know, she...

encouraged me to, you know, reach out to people, to do things, to go this, that, the other. I mean, she was really the one who helped really advocate and champion for me to actually do the psychedelic thing. And because she's seen, she's also seen, like, how I won't, I'll just, I don't know if it's pride, if it's whatever, you know, but like I won't stand up for myself. I won't advocate for myself. You know, I'll give my life for somebody else. But when it comes to doing a very basic thing or just a helpful thing for me, it's just like, no.

And I think it comes down to like, you know, there's this, for whatever reason, there's this thing with worth. And if you don't believe in your own worth from within, then doing those types of things is gonna, it's incredibly challenging. Yeah. And frankly, coming from my,

My whole life was one giant evaluation. So I'm not blaming that on anybody. Like I chose to do that, but soccer, like every time, you know, playing at the highest levels, like every single session, you're vying for a spot. The military. Like any day could be the one where you're like, yep, your shit's in the hallway. Yeah. And so when you go through developmental phases where who you are as a human being is depending

upon your perceived worth from somebody in a position of authority or power or evaluative, you know, uh, criteria. I think that, that certainly has an impact. And so for me, you know, doing the basic things for myself has been some of the hardest shit I've ever had to do. It's easy to focus the energy elsewhere. Without a doubt. It's a great distraction. Yeah. I'm like, listen, I'm doing okay. Look at what I'm doing over here. Yeah. Yeah. to try to help others. And meanwhile, you're just fucking auguring in like a lead balloon. Right.

And that's for the honesty thing, too. Like, I think it comes down to, you know, it comes back to that. So what were you expecting? And for people listening, if you want to know more about the Vets program, I had Amber and Marcus Capone on the podcast, and they explained it better than either you or I could, Bill. Yes. So just defer back to that or refer back to that.

What were you expecting or what were you hoping to get out of that? So I tried to keep my expectations open because now, you know, you're kind of getting into an environment in an experience where I wasn't like a big drug guy. So I never was in a really altered state of consciousness. You know, obviously I had alcohol and a little bit of pot, but like really not much. You know what I mean? That wasn't my thing. and weren't snorting lines of Coke off of a

Corvette Yeah like there was certainly Not that people I think people should do that Nor do I know where that came from either So you know Like seventh group But you know Yeah

What are you gonna do? You know It is what it is Not that No no Certainly not Yeah no So I never was in like

I never had any type of experience So it was unknown Completely unknown Did you have any hesitation Or trepidation about it? I think there's always a little bit of that when you go into a state of unknown, but what was stronger was like a desire to get better, to have an experience that. And I know a shitload about, you know, working with people about health, about fitness, about therapy, about all this stuff. You know, I know a lot, but it's not for lack of knowing.

but that self-administration standpoint, like there's a certain point I think where you have to let go and be like, I need help, I can't do this on my own. You know, the ego needs to kind of get blasted a bit. And so my intention going in was to, you know, be open to it. And really I wanted to try to, there was two real things. I wanted to try to stop or at least kind of figure out

how to not just live in my head so much and that over-analytical kind of overdrive of the analytical mind. Probably highly critical, highly self-critical. Yeah, totally. Totally. It's really awesome. This is this negative self-talk. Just wake up in the morning, look in the room and be like, fuck you.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, look at yourself. Look at you. How much are you going to suck today? That much you can do better. You can suck more than that. You're not even sucking good enough.

Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, I think, so the analytics. political part for sure you know that control element but then I just I wanted to feel alive you know I just and and it's not every day and you know there's obviously ups and downs and stuff like that so those are really like my intentions going in and it was it definitely provided that how was it for you I mean I know a lot of people struggle to describe the experience because it was indescribable

Yeah. How was it for you? So I did the Ibegain 5 MEO DMT. Okay. Powerhouse combination. You do them on separate days though, correct? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Might be a little bit too much for our mere mortal brains.

Well, to go back to back. I honestly, yeah, like, and the Ibegain, you know, that's traditionally, I guess, described as like a pretty, a pretty intense experience, not really all that pleasant. Yeah. I felt a degree of peace on that one that I, that I hadn't felt before. I didn't have any of the, like, you know, you think of psychedelics, and there's, at least me. When I thought of psychedelics, I thought, okay, I'm going to be seeing, like, crazy colors and dragons flying around. Very Hollywood movie-esque. For sure.

Complete, just, I don't know anything other than what pop culture basically says. I didn't have any visuals on that one. Didn't really have any like audio kind of things But um But I was right away like for the first like I think it was probably like three or four hours maybe Because it's like an eight to 12 hour session I was beating myself up beating myself up Over the fact that it wasn't working and I was fucking it up

It's it's perfect yeah you know what I mean and it's like and I remember one of the guys You're not even good enough at this yeah and then you go down that realm of like okay so here's the most one of the most powerful psychedelics available and it's not working you're never gonna get better there's no hope right like I mean it's just and then you're in your head with and I'm in my head with this and one of the one of the guides the facilitators had who like anybody from a professional standpoint 10 at 10 like from everything a standpoint 10 of 10 but like the the the professional like what they have going on with that program it gives me hope for humanity actually it's and that's why we want to continue to do as much as we possibly can to

share it with more because it was it was top notch yeah but i remember him saying like hey you know yeah somebody was having this experience and you know they weren't having the thing that they wanted so they just like kind of checked in with their intention and so i remembered that and so during this thing while I'm like beating myself up, analyzing my experience. I was like, well, you know, what did, like, okay, medicine, like, what do you want? What are you trying to teach me?

What are you trying to, what are you trying to show me here? And there was this, there's this response, not even like a voice, but like just a force of a response of like, well, what did you fucking come here for? And then I was like, oh, yeah, part of it was to stop living my fucking head, tormenting myself. And then I just kind of settled into that. and then felt peace.

And so it was not what I expected. Like I thought it was going to be like violent throwing up. Which is what some people describe it as. For sure. For sure. And some people, like the two other dudes I was with, like they had purged a little bit, one more so than the other. You know, but each of us had our own individual thing.

And that's where, you know, they, as the, like, the integration coach kind of says, and everybody really says, like, they're going to provide you what you need. how it works. I can't answer that, but like, which is what I think is very promising, unlike perhaps traditional, you know, pharmaceuticals or psychotropic medication

to where it's kind of like carpet bombing everything. It's turning this down and this up and just here you go. It's almost like bespoke medicine, these plant medicines and stuff. And so that was really good. And it was definitely not expected. I felt peace.

It was like, this is like, I started to feel like open up a bit and then and then the 5 MEO. The toad venom. The toad. Okay. I mean.

All right. So at first I did like two doses of it. The first one, it's very somatic. So it's almost like every atom in your body is like feeling pleasurable and just really, really good. But not

in this like, I need to get higher situation, or like I need to like chase this buzz, it just was just like energy. So I had like, yes, you basically get shot to this complete different realm of consciousness. Just in orbit. Yeah, just time goes away. It is indescribable kind of deal.

But it was this heavenly situation, just this oneness with a bunch of stuff. And it was just like really enjoyable. And there was a component of it though where I felt this feeling of like this is not complete like there's an incompleteness here again not I want to get that again like a like an addiction kind of reached towards but like there was just this incompleteness so I asked for a little bit more I got a little bit more and then I went into hell which was fucking horrifying it was absolutely horrifying I describe it as like having an

exorcism as well. And it was by far the hardest thing I've ever had to confront. Like just getting into this hell, my mind was creating this eternal loop of, okay, so there was eternity. Like I felt eternity. And then I felt, I think it was like just absolute nihilism and how nothing has any purpose of nothing matters and just this over extension of this analysis of looking for

something and like I had this thing of like my head eating itself it was like it was crazy it was it was it was fucking crazy and it was I felt like it was also and I purged actually on that one so much so is that the polite way to say throwing up yeah yeah yeah yeah Yeah, so I threw up on that, but like body was all going wild. Like it was intense. And how long is this lasting?

So it's not that long. It's like 10, 15 minutes they say. But you were describing it as feeling eternity though. Yes. So the actual time under substance, that experience, because it's vaporized, so you smoke it. So it goes like right to your brain. So it's not a long acting thing. The Ibegain is like, yeah, 8 to 12 hours is like an overnight thing.

this is this is much shorter and so I that was horrifying and I was shook I tried to go to and then it was like and then I kind of landed like a wobbly landing and came back I was like wow that was and then had this nice this this this this good experience and this you know kind of crying and reconnecting with this little version of me and then I try to go to night I try to go to sleep that night and every time I close my eyes I'm back in this pit of hell And I'm like, oh, wait a second. Like, okay, yeah, yeah, let me shake this off. Let me just, yeah, of course.

Like, you're going to remember that. Anyway, this went on and on. I didn't sleep at all. I was, then I'd go up into my head and I'm thinking, okay, I just, you know, gave myself schizophrenia. I'm having a psychotic episode. Like, I'm going to be on. I call this a webmd spiral.

Oh, because of course my phone was there, and so I went on Google. And I'm like, holy shit. shit like I didn't feel safe but I also had you know I also felt I felt evil and darkness trying to get in I felt like I threw up and purged some evil and darkness that had for a long time robbed me of feeling life and this these were this was shit was trying to get back in and so had you know I've had suicidal brushes before and this is what But I, those are amplified now. And I'm like, okay, I actually don't know if I feel safe with myself. And, uh, I have to work through this. It was like for all, you know, the whole like Luke Skywalker, you have to go into the cave kind of situation.

That, that night, I think was my cave. It was, it was probably the hardest and worst night of my life. Because every single, and then you start going towards, this is what my life is going to be like. Oh boy, you know, forever and family and that's it. Who I was is no longer. And well, frankly, yeah, that's true to an extent, but not in this way. And then anyway, the next day we went over, you know, talked with them a bit.

They were like, yeah, look, you had an experience. And those are the hardest ones to kind of go through, you know, and you, but you got that shit out of you. And life is that, that void of that, which. came out of you really can be filled with something for good. And this is now your, this is now the work. And I think that's one of the powerful components about these experiences. Any involved experience, it's not the experience. It's, it, the experience is the catalyst for the change, but your follow through.

So I got, um, so we went back home or whatever, or, uh, San Diego, Tim Chan. You remember Tim Chan? Yeah. Yeah. He actually is out there and he's a friend. So I linked up with him and he just was like, like, like, dude, I just need to like, have someone around basically. And he was cool.

Did an awesome job just like, you know, hanging out and just being there. And then that night I went back to the hotel. I'm like, all right. It's fucking mission time again. And went to go to sleep. It started re-experiencing some of the positive of the thing. But there was voices. It was like, hey, just like, this is why you should just throw yourself off the balcony.

Fuck. Yeah, yeah. Like this is, but the orientation to be able to see that from outside of myself was different now. And this is well after this shit has left my system. Yeah. So I didn't quite know, really, just how much that shit was still in me. And but was able to just orient towards it and be like, yeah, that's not, that's not me. That's not something I believe and dismiss it and move past it.

So there was these cycles of this. and then on the last one probably like three or four cycles had this vision sort of like a hand like going like this and I'm like this little speck at the end of this finger and this presence came over me as like you're with God now and I had this like huge like inhale sat up in bed and like cried a little bit

and then felt fucking amazing and like just like I had like a rebirth and this was like a full 24 hours after Was a religion part of your life before that? I mean, I grew up Catholic in a Catholic church. Doesn't necessarily mean you're religious. Definitely didn't, you know? Yeah.

And I realized, like, through this experience, one of the things that showed me was that that void where I think that darkness and evil kind of really occupied was that spiritual void. Spiritually had been out of practice for a long time. And just kind of was like that entered. you know, different life experiences, different jobs and whatnot. And so since that retreat, that leg of the stool, that spiritual leg of the stool,

has been something that I've been much more intentional with trying to cultivate. And I don't know what it is and can't define it or, you know, box it in, like, you know, organized religion. But this connection to something bigger, you know, is certainly the, for me, this spiritual route to spiritual fitness kind of situation to try to develop to experience life

in a better way. How did that trip in that experience, trip meaning not the drug-induced trip, but the actual journey down there and then coming back. Did that change anything at all with you and K? Yeah. So she noticed right away when I came home. Just the difference. You know, more life, more.

more just a different energy, you know. And it does sound like, I'm as cynical as they get, you know. So you start talking about energy. Right. And it's like you start, you know, we don't like things that we can't define or touch or like we don't do well with the unknown or the undefinable. But that is such obviously like a huge part of our experience or whatnot. And so, you know, to say that, like, I could feel your energy. Everybody can feel energy.

But then when you start to really, like, speak about it, it can kind of get like a little woo-woo and just out there and new agey. Well, and the descriptions are also often, like, super choppy. Like, you don't know the right words to use to describe what you're talking about. Right. And I think that lends itself to that we can't. Like, our mind is so powerful, but it's a limited. as well. And as soon as we try to box in these experiences that are bigger than our conceptual minds

and use of language can categorize, we lose it. You know, like you can't put the ocean in a box. You can't contain it. It's this massive thing. And so she noticed just a different energy, you know. But there's also, you know, especially in therapy, like there's like family systems therapy as well and that's an approach to basically looking at somebody as a unit within the family, a unit within the organization and any change to any unit within that is going to have a change

on the system as a whole. Makes sense. Right? Well, part of that is also like the person that I've been and the person that she's been living with just because I might be feeling better. Like that doesn't necessarily mean that all is going to be rainbows and unicorns, especially for her. She's had years of preparing like, I wonder where the next shoe is going to drive. You know, I wonder if, like, there's been times where she said, like, I don't know if I've, like, she's had to go check my gun.

Really? Yeah. Yeah. Well, she's felt concerned like that. And, like, part of this integration, and this is where I think, you know, the psychedelics are a promise and a beacon of hope. Because it's not just about the fucking medicine. It's about what you do after it. and the experience. It's this, it's this, yeah, it's this catalyst for change that somehow

provides an individual and unique experience for what you kind of need to work through, however it works. That's my only concern is that people will look at it like they do, and I'm not saying everybody does this, but I'm damn positive that a lot of people do when it comes to over-the-counter a prescribed medication, salvation is in this bottle. For sure. If I just can pop this in, and then that's the solution. If I just go down to Mexico, the experience itself will fix everything. And I don't have any experience with over-the-counter or prescribed antidepressants or any of that type of stuff. I have no experience with anything that you went through in Mexico.

I have a pretty robust experience with counseling. and I try to talk openly about it. And one of the things I always try to say is it's not about somebody fixing your problems. It's about, you need to get in there with an e-tool and be ready to dig a trench. And don't think that the dude or gal that you're talking to is going to help you shovel. They can maybe point you in the right direction, but all of the work has to come from you. And that's my only concern, not specifically with that stuff, like the Vets program, like I said, I have it with just about anything. It's that they feel that the experience is the solution, whereas like you said, that's just opening the door to, hey, man, you get to walk through it and then you're going to have to walk this path as well.

Otherwise, otherwise, it's, it's all it is. This is just an experience. For sure. And, you know, we had a, my buddy and I have a, we had a quote or a saying on the team, which was the problem regarding this one particular situation. The problem is the solution is. a problem and for looking at either these medicines or any medicine or buying shit like this thing will make me this it's like no where you it's that's that's guaranteeing failure yeah um but what and i think that's something that you know the the i'm new i'm new into this world so i'm speaking

completely out of opinion you're talking to psychedelic world yeah yeah yeah both really i mean you're a cosmonaut now psychedelic world Cosmonaut? Yeah, cosmonute, whatever you would want to say. Astronute, basically. I mean, you can go launch on whatever rocket you want to. It's your choice. But like, you're an explorer.

An explorer, yes. There's no coming back. But I have, you know, try to be a student of this and listen to people who have been dedicating their lives. And all, like this guy, Rick Doblin, who's founded Maps, which is like the body, he talks about basically it's not, for for for for this purpose is like MDMA this is the is the compound it's not the

MDMA it's the therapy it's the work after it and this is that's coming from the source so yeah you know and that's where I think we forget that here because we're a transactional society it's like give me this I give you that boom outcome and that's just not how that's just not how development and healing and growth and and and all that goes and And, you know, I think it's, I think it's super important. And that's where, like, one of my passions is, especially now with like, okay, between the ears or whatever, or just in general, there's prep work to do and then there's follow through to do.

I was going to ask you if your experience there changed how you thought about the application of your between years programming. I think it nests perfectly. Yeah. Very well. Because it's getting to honesty with yourself in a non-judgmental, open-minded, curious way where you can observe, you know, and learn about yourself. And in many ways, it's preparing you for whatever experience you might need to have,

you know, moving forward. And there's also, you know, the physical preparation, breath work, you know, just just learning about yourself. So then you go into this experience, which takes that and just amplifies it beyond measure. And then there's like, oh, shit, now what? you know, and so I think that's kind of where any of these collaborative, supportive mechanisms for helping people get to know more about themselves and apply what they've learned, you know, the awareness part, but the action part, you know, kind of come together.

And I think that's where a lot of people are doing good things in this realm. How many people were down there with you at the Vets program? There was myself and two others. How many total people were down there, though? Oh, they had a full medical staff. No, I mean, like participants. Was it just three people? Yeah.

Because I have heard of them taking, you know, 30, 40 people at a time. At vets? Not at vets. In this type of settings, this medicinal approach to the plant-based medicine. And the reason I asked that is I was curious if you have encountered or if anybody, if your group size was larger, that it didn't have the impact that they wanted or it had a negative impact. Yeah, I can't, I don't know. I think I've been...

Probably it'd be easier to answer if the sample size was larger. That's why I asked. Yeah, I've heard horror stories. I think they're horror stories of basically like mass administrations. So I went through this, I went through vets in January. And since then I was like, okay. Of this year? Yeah.

So we're talking two months ago. Two months ago. Okay. Yeah. So leaving that being like, what this is, it was, you know what it was kind of like the first CrossFit workout you do? We were like, what the fuck was I doing

before? Yeah. And not to say this is everything, I think that's the dogma, right? It's like, hey, this is now everything. It's like, no, hold on, but this is certainly something that can be beneficial for lots of things. That's kind of what my experience was like. It's like, whoa, hold on, there's this whole separate, there's this whole other area of

getting to know yourself and improve and just elevate who you are. I want to learn more. So I've really just been, being student mode in addition to actually being a real student but you know student mode when it comes to this thing I want to understand more of this so I can

intelligently think about things and be able to have conversations and not just be like yeah dude it's fucking awesome you got to do it I'm not buying that if I'm saying that to myself and so to elicit change it be like a force multiplier I think there needs to be some intelligence to it and you know

there's different leaders in the industry who are saying like hey there's some major problems that can happen. And we need to be up front with that. Yeah, it's not risk-free. No, no, it's not salvation, and it's not 100% risk-free, you know? And there's a sacredness to these things.

There's a power to these things that it's not, this is not like a three-strikes kind of situation. This is like real, this is real deal. And so I know as at the larger, scale to macro scale. Yeah, there's people who don't have good experiences. There's people who, yeah, don't facilitate well. I know for a fact the facilitators that, you know, vets works with are like top of the game. And that's... Yeah, I think one of the biggest risks is going to be the backyard facilitator. The dude in

and I have no reason to say this place, but I'm going to. I'm pulling show. out of my ass again, the guy in Portland named Bob, who changes his name to Ashwana, or whatever the fuck his name is, and in his garage is administering this stuff, that, in any negative consequence that could come from that, I think,

is probably the most risk that the programs like vets face. Yeah. Because the negative outcome from that it would require people to have a nuanced understanding and a difference of the two applications and the programs and all of that. And if it hits

the, if it hits multiple times in media, it's not going to be that. It's just going to be talking about how horrendous the negative aspect of it was. Yeah. Most of my friends, all of my friends, save for one, who have gone through that treatment, have had profound life-changing effect. And that's them speaking about it. I'm obviously paraphrasing, but I think they would be comfortable with me using that descriptor. And then, yeah, I have one friend where it didn't seem to land. And it didn't seem to have the impact he ended up taking his life about just over a year ago. So, yeah, I mean, I'm fascinated by it.

Terrified of it, full disclosure, you know, to a degree. Because, again, totally unknown. I totally have the Hollywood cinematic. Like, am I going to be fucking chased around by the goddamn dragon for the next eight hours? Because I don't want to do that. Right. You know, right. Well, I think that's the thing.

Like, it's not, you know, people that are, people can escape into anything. And unfortunately, because of how powerful these things are, I can, I know for a, I know for a fact, there's people in places that it is like a weekly, sipping on some ayahuasca every week. And it's like, I know of, I, actually I'm going to go, I'm not, can even use any specifics. I know of people who, like, yearly trips and they're down. there for weeks and just backed and back and it's like yeah that's I mean what's the difference but and again I say this from a totally non-educated perspective but what's the difference between that and just jam and more pills down your throat right like you're going back to the fountain again yeah and I don't say that with judgment I mean I

and we all have our own demons and the ways the people are able to work through that and if they find that to be the approach that works for them yeah okay but then it goes back to your point. Are you coping or are you actually doing the work? Yeah, and are you being honest with yourself? Yeah. And I think that's where the leaders, you know, we just came back from this 4 by 4 by 48

event that God goes wrong with you, by the way. Why? What do you mean? Why run? Anywhere. I'll get you a one wheel. Oh my God. Marcus, our son has one of those. He's got like a thousand miles on it. Yeah. I just hate running. I despise running.

So, yeah, it's funny. I came back from the retreat, and I started to try to, like, you know, get back. And I came back on, like, I don't know what it was, Sunday maybe. And on, like, Monday, I went back into the gym. And I did, like, warm up. And I was like, okay, hold on a second. This is not, like, I need to pull off a little bit. We'll be taking a few days off now.

Yeah. And so when it was time to, like, return back to exercising, you know, I was like, I just had this desire to run. And I haven't run in years, really. As a soccer player, all you did was wrong. I'm like, fuck that, I don't want to do that anymore. And then all of a sudden, I saw it, like, a week later, I saw the call for volunteers to raise money.

And that, so, you know, but I do have, I do have a body that is capable. I do have a body I care about. And there's a lot of friends, you know, there's a lot of people we know who they don't have that ability via, you know, either limbs gone, back, you know, destroy injuries. Yeah, just wear and tear.

Wear and tear. I'm fortunate that that's not. Like, I've got this body that I can. can use for something good. It's my vessel to experience life, and I want to do it in a positive direction and in a good vector. And so that was why to raise money, you know, to use our... What was it?

Four miles every four hours for 48 hours. Yeah. You need to go back to Mexico. You still got some fucking issues. Well, you want to hear one better? I'll say this. I also didn't eat during it. So there was, we thought there was going to be, I, I have, I'm actually concerned because I think my body still thinks that's the case.

I've been so hungry for like a week. And I typically don't eat. Yeah. But it was, yeah, but it was, but anyway, you know, they brought all of these Warrior Angels Foundation was the name of the thing who brought them all together. So that was there. Marks was there. Other Jesse from Heroic Hearts was there. They're like, I think, I don't know much, but I think they're like the two that.

are like leading the charge. Leading the charge for sure and doing awesome things for people. And it was just about coming together, but there was this whole Native American component to it about, frankly, about also healing the relationship between Native American American American military.

Yeah. Not exactly a great bit of history. Checkered past, if you will. Checkered past, a couple black eyes. Yeah. And so the leadership demonstrated by them and the openheartedness to say, like, look, healing is a communal effort.

It's not something somebody does on an individual level necessarily, but it's this, you know, yes, the individual needs to heal, but together we need to and kind of come together. It was an amazing event. So we raised like over $11,000

bucks, which is, you know, enough to send like three veterans through and, you know, using the tools, using the gifts and the blessings and benefits we have. Like, that's why I ran. Yeah. How's your experience been going to school for social work.

I am ready to graduate. May. It's like a month. Yeah. Do you go sit in the seat? Are you doing virtual? So, it's back in person. Okay. So I started in the, I started in 2020. I started January of last year.

I went straight through. We opened, we opened a small gym, between there's gym actually, in 2020. So like mid-pandemic. Yeah, perfect timing. Right. Two months later, I decided to go back to school full-time. So it's like, okay, so now Kay is basically running that, and she's doing a great job with it. But there's also, I'm also interning at the VA, actually, which is an interesting thing. For counseling?

Yeah. What's the average age demographic you're working with? Mostly Vietnam veterans. That's what's going to be my guess, actually. Yeah, mostly Vietnam veterans who I never really had much interaction. a couple. Like I was fortunate to learn from Ernie Tabada at the Q course. He's like a legend.

But I didn't really have any like real interactions, you know. With my family, my grandfathers were both in World War II. And then military service actually skipped a generation. And then my brother, myself, my cousin all went in. But anyway, it's mostly Vietnam veterans. Some younger guys and gals. But yeah, that's pretty much it. So I'm ready to graduate in May.

And it's been tough to be back in the seat for sure. But it's worth it. And at the time, I didn't know anything would happen. But it was just this, I think the path of trying to just provide a different angle, a different experience to try to help people, myself included, you know. And kind of from the veteran standpoint, too, like, there's not a lot of, I don't think there's a lot of veteran therapists. And so...

I know of more now. There's a couple guys that I serve with who are pursuing that path as well. Oh, good. And I think it's based off of a profound experience that they had working with somebody at some point along the time in their journey. And they want to replicate that and provide that for others. It's very much a pay-it-fow-or kind of deal. It's a form of service.

Like, you don't only need to wear a uniform to serve. You know, if you... There's many ways to serve. Many. I get that question all the time on the Friday episodes that I do. It's like, I did the family business until my mid-30s. It's too late. And I can't shake this feeling that I did.

It's like, dude, serve in your local community. Go be a coach on a sports team. Yeah. Go be, go help and volunteer. First off, don't be a piece of shit. Let's start there. Right, right, right. Let's be a good person.

And then we can ripple that out. Yeah. Maybe help your neighbor out. Help your community. I'll help the school, help the kid. Like there's so many different things you can do without putting a uniform. on. When you're at the VA, so when you're interning there, are you basically sitting in on the counseling sessions? So I'm either co-facilitating groups. Yeah. Facilitating them on my own or working

with individuals on my own. Are you surprised at all by, and I've been to none of these, are you surprised at all by what the Vietnam generation is still working their way through? Because we're talking people in their 60s and 70s at this point. It hit me. I'll say that. It hit me. It moved me. Can you imagine carrying that fucking suitcase for that long? That's one of the things people say. And so, you know, I started at the VA, I think like six months ago maybe. So personally, the shit show that was Afghanistan was incredibly hard to watch.

Oh, the withdrawal? Yeah. Yeah. Were you surprised by it, though? Not the withdrawal, but what happened after we left? Of course not. Yeah, okay. Of course not.

Just checking. No. Just checking. Well, obviously, this is what's going to happen. All the vets I serve with are like, oh, no, no, no. That was definitely going to happen. We fucked up how we got out of there, but that was definitely going to happen. But, like, you can know how the movie's going to end.

Yeah. And still be like, fuck, that was an intense movie. Yeah. So, yeah, there was obviously a lot of stuff that's stirring up and whatnot. And in the groups, they were like, this is the same shit. 50 fucking years ago. Yeah. The same thing.

We saw the same bird on the same embassy, the same thing. And it was, and they're like, you know, we've been carrying this thing for 50 years. And so for them to see that was another triggering event. And, you know, it, that hit me. Really, that hit me. My dad was a, he served in Vietnam. And I lived in Montana when I was young down in Missoula, about 120 miles south of here. And the reason we made the move is that my mom basically gave my dad an ultimatum.

And the ultimatum was you're going to work on yourself or I'm out of here with the kids. And so he explored some, and I think it was through the VA, but also he explored some very intensive counseling. physical end the group stuff as well too and I my theory on war and I think it will always be this

is that if you touch war it will touch you back so it will change you it doesn't have to ruin your life I actually think I'm a better person because of my experience right um

so my dad worked on through or dealt with or reshaped reframe I don't know what term he would necessarily use use. But he put the work in. And in doing so, though, he was a, he was also a teacher. He was a PE teacher. And he would, I remember he was told the story often. And I believe it was up here in

Montana. He would ask the kids, like, you know, how many of your, how many of your dad served in Vietnam? And a good percentage of the classroom would raise their hand. And he would take a little bit deeper, you know, like what percentage of the kids, you know, what percentage of your dads or how many of you, your dad kind of lives off by himself as an as to task. And he would take a little bit deeper. And and you know is essentially out in the fucking mountains you know set trip wires a lot more hands went up than you would ever want to and you know I just can't imagine carrying that burden for that long yeah yeah and I think when you look at like the power of meaning and belonging and when there's a fracture to that you try to hold on to the past yeah because at least

you feel like you're part of that still and it's it is is a yeah it is a way to imprison yourself you know and to and that's the thing like how do you liberate yourself from that oppression it's I don't have the answer to that I don't think you could do it on your own I think that's the like like at least in what I think yet the same thing because the same thing that gave that belonging and that sense of like okay I'll give my life for this it wasn't just about you and that's the thing with service as well like contribute to something bigger than you done, period. If that means a uniform

or a T-ball league or your street or whatever, like that's all serving is. And healing is very, I think, similar where coming together, you know, this ongoing process of working on yourself and the environment which you're in. And that

there's a synergy there. And so to do it on your own or to feel like you're isolated so many people, and that's where the pandemic was so hard for a lot of people. Yeah. And and still is with that isolation. The belonging component, there's been a fracture at the belonging stage.

We don't do well with that as humans. Like, that's just encoded into us. I think some people can do okay with it, but I don't think anybody thrives. Maybe some outliers do. Maybe, you know, extremely introverted, like antisocial people, maybe. Yeah.

But I don't know, they'd probably be better off, chilling the fuck out. So after you graduate, I mean, is it, you think moving forward, your next calling is going to be clinically serving people through facilitating counseling? Yeah, yeah. I think... You're going to focus on vets, open it up? I mean, what's your thoughts moving forward? So my goal is to get my LCSW, which is like my clinical license, which basically means like I could have my own private practice.

It's like thousands of hours before you can get to. that point, right? Yeah, yeah. So, but I also want to serve veterans. And so I'm fortunate to be at the VA now. Hopefully that looks like, you know, continuing. And, you know, I know the V, and I'm, I'm not leaving a five-star review for my own personal experience through the, through the organization. But I also believe in being part of the solution, not just highlighting problems. And so, you know, if I'm, if I'm fortunate enough to be able to, you know, do work there, the VA hospital is 10 minutes from my house, it's my local community, like it's, it's a good thing. And then all the while, you know, also working on continuing to use fitness and movement for people who, who want to help

themselves and access different parts of their own journey. And, you know, we'll see, I'd love to continue to dabble or learn more about the psychedelic stuff and where this holistic approach to getting connected with yourself, you know, this integrative fitness. and body, mind, and kind of soul situation, how that can play a role, not the role, but a role. How does academia feel about that? Which part? You know, you're almost done with your masters.

Are they accepting of psychedelics being a slice of the pie? Are they very dogmatic in their approach when it comes to mental health, counseling, stuff like that? We don't talk about it directly. It's not part of the curriculum. yet. But so I go to NYU and there's they have a whole study like their NYU facilitates like psilocybin treatments. So it's it's not a matter of if but when this becomes ingrained and part of thing. Now what does that mean for there's so much stuff that's going to have to shake out

too like like for example I would not feel comfortable administering somebody one of these compounds. That is way beyond my... Yeah, I want no part of that. No, no. And that's not... That's not... If I'm being honest with myself, that's not my...

That's not where I belong. The people who are all about that and know the legitimate history of it all and are true experts on it. So I think that's some of... Within the field of mental health, what they're still trying to figure out too, like, okay, hey,

these things are showing in, you know, random controlled clinical trials, like super effective. Like, they're going to have, they're going to get approved all of this. How do we sort of divvy up who administers, who doesn't, what's it like? There's a staffing shortage, too. You know, and so to get people trained up on working with these things is a problem that needs to be solved. Yeah, otherwise, like I said, you got Bob in Portland in his garage with people on, you know, piss-soaked mattresses. Yeah. I don't know why they're piss-soaked, but that's how I feel they would be.

He took the diaper off. Of course. Yes, the diapers off. No, I think you're really well positioned to be the runway for people for the before and then the landing for people after so they can continue. And if they want to go that route, because I don't, you know, I don't think anything is for everybody. No. I hate broad, all-inclusive terms like that, always and never. Yeah, yeah, I agree.

I agree. And I think that they can provide a lot of benefit for a lot of people. They're absolutely not for everyone. Yeah. And there's, like, that's great, too, you know, to be able to say, like, look, these things are very, are solid. Because as soon as it starts becoming, like, evangelical with like, no, no, no, no, like, enforcing it upon. Like, again, I'm thinking about myself, like, I'm out. For sure.

Yeah, I'm in the same way. Total turn off. Like, not happening. And then you have to. I'm like, yeah, you have to go fuck yourself. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I don't do well with that at all.

No. Fuck, man, it's such a, it's refreshing to sit down and talk with people who are willing to explore everything that's out there as opposed to being dogmatic. I get very turned off by people who have the answers to everything and you do this, this, this and this. even when it like to go back to jiu-jitsu like i like it when people will teach a principle and not necessarily a technique for sure because what if i'm not that i want to fight meneu bull is he still alive god damn it i don't know if this is a good analogy the basketball player yeah or some other dude who's eight feet tall yeah all right and then then of course on the other end i mean you have a small person I don't think

that a technique is going to work equally across both but principles could help bridge that gap yeah I feel much more comfortable with those

yeah yeah the dogma when I when I start to sense also like the dogma meter start to flicker and dance around the red it's like

fuck no like and unfortunately like I also I mean I think it comes down to just ignorance, you know, with that being, you've reached the limitation, like, of what you're, you've reached your limitation, and you don't know that. So you think you've got it all. But really, it's like, you know, those like Russian doll things. Oh, yeah. Like, you're one of

the nesting dolls. Yeah. You're like the third out of 11. Pull that straight out of my ass right there just so you know with that term. It's no big deal. I'm pretty cultured. Have you spent time in Russia? I actually have been there. Really? Yeah. walking around Red Square is a trip. There are still painted lines on the, I think it was brick, with like, this is where the missile truck goes. This is where the armored personnel carrier goes. But what they also don't tell you is on the other side of the square

is a fucking shopping mall. Oh, really? Yeah. It's like a Gucci store in there, like Louis Vuitton. It's directly across from the Kremlin. Oh, my God. And the same shared square where there's the, I don't know if it would be a church,

It's got like the multi-colored. It looks like a pops, not a popsicle, but a lollipop in most colors. Yeah, so like if this is the square, there's like the Kremlin, and then there's the shopping mall. And then here's the church. And people talk shit about capitalism, but it's like, hey, you know. Pan 90 degrees right with your camera. And people just be like, you got me. Yeah, yeah, finding some cracks in that foundation.

I actually went there, funny, tying this back to Reebok. I went there for them. They were looking at opening up or integrating with their market there. So I went there for like 10 days on super short notice and had some time off. I just totally walked around Moscow. Did you have any hesitations traveling over there or any like, you know, nothing? No. It was just like, I'm going to Russia.

Anybody else to roll me up by like, listen, put the pliers away. I'm going to tell you all the secrets that I know. The nuclear launch code is one, two, three. I'm like, what do you want to fucking know? Like, I don't know any secrets, dude. I know, I know, I know. I know. I know.

I mean, no. Not at all. Yeah. Yeah, but I also wasn't doing anything like suspect. Right. Like walking around the fucking Kremlin with a 500X telephoto lens trying to get pictures of people. I was just like walking.

And then I walked through the, the reason I know that mall is over there. I was fascinated by the storefronts that are clearly not shown in any of the media. Right. And I wanted to see what was in there. Right. Right, right. Oh my God, that's funny. Yeah.

When are you guys going to get out of the gym business? Maybe sooner than you know. I enjoyed out in the gym that I did for a little bit, but it's rough wanting more for people than they want for themselves. Yeah. I go back and forth with that because I think you have to have the balance between giving people autonomy for true change, you know, and being like, hey, you need to learn how to do this for you, but also using your experience, expertise, knowledge, etc.

Hurt or break themselves. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that is one of the challenges with, that's the challenge with any methodology that you don't, that you don't own, you know. So for example, for CrossFit, people come in maybe want to. to be the next games athlete. Yeah.

And you're like, yeah, but no, that's not actually what the thing was or what we're trying to do. It's supposed to be an hour a day. And if you only dedicate an hour or day to it, let me just tell you, you're never going to go to the CrossFit games. No. But your life could be fantastic from a physical perspective. Yeah.

And also you would net yourself 23 hours to do something else. It was a double-edged sword working around the games athletes because fucking hell. They are inspirational and their ability for capacity and output. Yeah. But they also sacrifice, and I think it's largely unseen that sacrifice life experiences, because they are a professional at that. Sure. So they are, I mean, they have months and months and months and months and months and months planned out. Yeah. And nowhere in that is generally like, hey, let's go to a Gagher and get fucked up. Not that I'm advocating that everybody should do that, but that's a life experience that

maybe would allow for shitty life decisions what I don't want people to make, but it might be good for context and the overall lap around a life that we get. And yeah, it's I think that was the biggest thing that

the games being on TV and elevating to that level or to the stature that it was at is that it confused people about what CrossFit actually was. And I'm sure you and K feel this as gym owners well, I don't want to be a games athlete. I don't want to do that.

It's like that's not actually what it is. Right. It's a confusion point for a lot of people. And actually the games themselves, in my opinion at least, and from what I've seen, they're very polarizing. People are very either inspired by that, like, fuck that. I don't want any part of that. Yeah.

And I think people, like, for whatever reason, I think we naturally compare it down. Like, I don't know if I've ever met someone, and I haven't met a lot of people, like, whatever. But very few people are like, comparing themselves up. You know, like, oh, hey, yeah, no, I can definitely, like a lot of people, for whatever reason,

if there's a pedestal, they're going to put themselves not on top of the pedestal. I know some people who would definitely compare up, even with zero experience in what it is they are comparing themselves. They'd be like, oh, you do that? Oh, I'll definitely fuck you up at that. Like, you've never done fill in the blank ever. Doesn't matter.

I don't know if you know this. I'm pretty much a game time player. I'm known as an athlete. Like, okay. Good for you. Have you ever heard of the term hubris? Yeah. Hey, you're an asshole.

Normal people, I would say. Let's be honest, though. How fun is it to entice those people to try said activity for the first time? Weighted muscle ups with a medicine ball between you do you like? Really be. I can do that shit in less than five minutes. I have a stopwatch and a barbell over here and a pull-up bar. Let us begin.

It is amazing how you. you can just how much you can fuck someone up with that. Yes. For many years, if I'm being totally honest, I would let it go far too far. I would not govern that behavior, knowing that they were probably going to fuck themselves up. Yeah. Later, still less mature years, I would at least stop them.

Yeah, you should keep doing it. Yeah. Like, hey, man, what I would do is I would try to talk to them during and get them to talk back to me. Right. That was the way that I would introduce a little bit of a break. Hey, hey, hey, hey, what are you doing over there? You know what I mean?

Yeah. Suppose, like, if you don't stop now, you're going to die. Right. So I had a football player one time come in, and we started the workout with like a minute on the echo bike. I was like, listen, I know it's just a minute. This thing is going to snatch up. Your soul. Your soul.

Yeah. Your lungs are literally going to deflate and not reinflate. So just take it easy. He's like it's a fucking minute, right? There's a big football player. I'm like, yeah, just a just a minute. But I'm telling you, this is going to be the longest of your life. No, all right, I got like a fucking C-130 taking off.

A 40-second. Goes off to the side, sits down, never saw him again. And I'm like, and that's one of the things I think that's to the point about not wanting, like, there's only so much that you can do with somebody. Yep. And where it's like, look, man, you're missing out on something because your ego got in the way. Or because maybe you're, maybe you're, like, pissed off that you've got 30 extra pounds and you don't look like what you look like, you know, back in the day, but that's the right, we're here now.

Let's be honest with that and then orient towards a more helpful direction. And it's going to take time, but it's going to be rewarding and all this and all that. Or you can just be an asshole and tell me, I don't know what I'm doing, and tell me go fuck off. And in which case is sit there and go, you should go harder. Break it. Oh, God. Yeah. Whoever, I think it was the assault bike first, but I'm sure that wasn't the first version.

Bill and Katie just made it more bomb-proof with the echo white. But the original founder of that bike should get punched right in the face. Right in the old mouth hole. Yeah. You could probably make that. A couple calls that you could make that happen. I feel like they're dead. I feel like that device has been around since, like, early gyms.

Like the original... The Schwinn? Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I feel like I've seen. pictures or versions of that from like black and white days. Yeah. Some evil motherfucker was like, I wonder how that came about.

Some asshole with too much time on his hands who hated himself is how that came about. A little self-loathing to help. Yeah, it's like, how can I possibly hurt myself even more under the guise of making myself better? And then share with all my friends and eventually the world. That's that asshole. Yeah. Dude, we've been out for almost three hours. Are you serious?

Yeah, it did serious. Where can people find you? So describe behind the ears. Give me the elevator pitch and then let me know where people can find you if they want to know more. So between the ears is an approach to learning more about yourself and proving yourself through physical, mental, and emotional fitness. That's like basically the bottom atomic level of what it is. is what that means that each person is going to be different. That's part of the exploration, the phase of that.

People can find me on Instagram. Bill Anthe's is probably the best way. At Bill Anthe's. At Bill Anthe's. Very original. Between the ears is spelled BTWN the ears. Does it have an Instagram page as well? It does.

Okay. Yeah. I post more to my personal situation. I don't love, I don't love social. media but it's neither social nor media that's true what should it be called a waste of fucking time yeah basically yeah i was i was held like when i when i got out from the retreat i was like done that's obviously not a thing you know what i mean like you need it for your business at this point and then i was like yeah yeah you know make sure you're using it and it's not using you

yeah there's a way that you can control it yeah you know again i'm not dogmatic about much Some people cannot control alcohol usage. Right. Some people have no interest whatsoever. Wherever you fall on that spectrum, I would just recommend, hey, if you ever find yourself in a place where you can't control something that's controlling you, address that and try to reverse it. And if you can control it and it doesn't negatively influence your life, I got nothing

to say about it. Yeah. For sure. And if it is negatively influencing your life and your fucking asshole because of it, just accept accountability and responsibility for that. And then also change your fucking behavior. Yeah. So.

Yeah. I don't know how I got on that, but... I like it. Closing thoughts by Bill Anthe's. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, man. Appreciate the... Well, it took us like six months to figure it out.

Oh, my God, I know. Well, it was a good time. It all worked out well. Yeah. You know? But yeah, I mean, I think that closing thoughts, you know, being honest with ourselves and connecting with others as we kind of navigate through this, through this thing.

You know, there's hope, I think, in that. And for a lot of folks who are struggling to see. some hope. I hope that this, you know, can, that this can help. Yeah, I agree. Well, thank you for sharing your experience, man. Yeah. I know sharing personal experiences is not always the easiest, especially with a camera over your shoulder and a microphone in front of your face. Right, right, right, right. It's impactful, though, for sure. Thanks, man. Cool. Yeah, appreciate.