Cleared Hot - Powered By BRCC - Episode 250 - Sara Wilkinson

Episode Date: September 12, 2022

Sara Wilkinson is a mother, small business owner, suicide prevention advocate, and the widow of Navy SEAL Chad Wilkinson. SCPO Chad Wilkinson was born into the Navy. Both his uncle and father were SEALs (before his dad became a Marine One helicopter pilot). After a year at UCF, Chad enlisted in the Navy and successfully completed BUD/S. After three deployments with SEAL Team Eight, Chad left service for almost three years. He re-rejoined and was selected to screen for SEAL Team Six out of VA Beach. Chad served for 21 years, deploying to combat zones around the globe. Chad was on active duty in Virginia Beach when he died by suicide on October 29, 2018. Sara talks very openly about the unique dynamics required to survive and thrive while married to an active duty Special Operations soldier, as well as the terrible toll that it can take on tier one operators. She talks through the "what ifs" and all the looking back she has done to see if there were signs of Chad's unseen injuries which ultimately led to his death.

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Because there's too much shit. Evan sells too much shit. But it's all kind of awesome. And I find myself all the time on the website. buying shit because like I said, I like coffee. I like cool people. I like cool brands. So couldn't be happier to have this episode brought to you by Black Rifle Coffee. My guest today is Sarah Wilkinson and fuck. This is a tough one. I actually met Sarah first. Way back in the day. We've been Basties forever. Way back in the day, 2007, maybe 2006.

When I opened, CrossFit Coronado. She was one of the first people to come through the door. And let me just tell you, she's a firecracker. Anybody who knows her could tell you that she's a firecracker. So that's how we met. And they had moved there because her husband, Chad, was finishing up, reintegrating back into the sealed community. He had gotten out for a little bit. And then they went back to the East Coast because Chad was selected for development group.

You know, I said this is a tough one because the subject matter is one that is really difficult. In 2018, Chad took his own life and the circumstances and situation around it, I'll let Sarah speak for herself. But it's not anything that I would want anybody to have to live through. Chad was operating at the highest level, at a command that I would describe as at the front leading edge of what is possible in the military, with a family, wife, son, daughter, and made the decision that he did. And it obviously has the impact that it does. So I think on this one, it's way better to let Sarah speak for herself. So episode number 250 with Sarah Wilkinson. Enjoy, but also take notes.

Close now. You could get hurt. You got to find the right Matt culture, is what I would say. Oh, Matt culture. Okay. So Leah, my wife, is... Congrats, by the way. Thank you very much.

It was last weekend. We celebrated our one-week anniversary. It's not a big deal. I don't have to get crazy with it. Michael didn't even get us a card for our one-week anniversary. What a piece of shit he is over there. I wish I would have rolled him with a card. Yeah, that's why I don't give him a microphone

because he'd be talking shit back. Also, I just haven't had the time to drill the hole in for the microphone to come on his desk. But she is a very high-level jihitsu practitioner, but has, I mean, the only accurate way to describe it is kind of horror stories starting off. You're not going to be, meaning you're not going to win. Oh, I'm totally cool with that.

No, I mean, just in general, for women, you're not going to win for a very long time. Spoiler alert for people, there's often size, weight, and strength differences between men and women. You're fighting out of bad positions. So, yeah, you could get hurt if you don't find a good mad culture. It could be, I haven't found Jiu-Jitsu a single time to be awkward. I do know some people who won't roll with women because their significant other has asked them not to. I could care less, and I've never found it to be awkward. But if you were a weird person, it could get weird.

I could, whenever I've seen people do it, I've never thought or interpreted it as weird. I just saw Tim Kennedy do, well, this was months ago, at a fitness festival, do a thing with a bunch of participants that all these people were rolling in the grass. Was Jason Caliba there? Yes. Why? No, I just, I saw that video as well. Oh. And it seemed, you know, like, it didn't seem weird at all.

It seemed like, you know, a sport, a skill, something you're learning. Or when Jason and Tim are there, it's two incredibly sweaty gorillas going at each other. That might have been a little weird, the two of them, because they're just, I don't know. There's a lot of sexual tension. Yeah, they were making jokes, so intentionally. And I was spanning the crowd in the kids, and I was like, oh, some people are getting it, some people are not. I've rolled with Tim one time, trained with them for about 30 minutes. It was, oh, it didn't go great.

Well, I took that back. If you were asking Tim, he'd go, spectacular. If you're asking me, holy cow. It actually reframed how I think about jiu-jitsu, though, because you can learn a lot when you get, I'll describe it as being smashed like that. Okay. He wasn't vindictive or malicious at all.

I've actually found that the highest level of practitioners are generally the most gentle. Like, they could absolutely give you the business if they wanted to, but they don't. Right. But you also realize that they're not and that at any point in time they could do whatever they want to.

to you. And so I try to reverse engineer that. Hadn't figured it out yet. But he is, he's a unique, unique, very strong and skilled individual. I would not recommend you starting by rolling with Tim Kennedy. No, I'm good. I'm good. I'll pass. I'll pass. Do you think you'll ever pick it up? I would like to. I mean, I'm traveling around on a camper van and, you know, my skills are pretty limited should I ever get attacked. So really it's like practical application. That's where tools come in though the best thing you well right now it's just my face i just put this face on like don't fuck with me the rbf just the resting bitch face all right i've seen you point that face in my direction many time over the years yes way back and probably 06 when we first met yes i was thinking today

when i first started uh for anybody listening andy was my first crossfit coach trainer yeah You're welcome. And I had just learned kipping pull-ups, and they really didn't look good. And I was doing a pull-up workout. And I think some dumbbell push-press workout. And you were just standing there watching the class. And also had a run. And I remember taking off for the run, and you just gave me this look.

And I said, what? Am I doing it wrong? And you were like, no, it's fine. But it'd be cooler if you went faster. I was like, damn it. That does sound like something that I could say. So that was kind of the theme of my guidance in CrossFit. That's how it went.

How did you find CrossFit? Coronado. We're going in the way back time machine now. Way back time machine. So we moved to Coronado. Chad got stationed out there and he was way into CrossFit when we lived back east and I was so not into CrossFit because he was into it. I went to a free workout at CrossFit San Diego on a Saturday just to like check the box and be like, hey, I did that I did that CrossFit stuff. Still run by the Lugos at the time? Yeah, and C.J. Martin ran that class that day and it was hard. And I I remember him looking out the door and he, I was like hobbling to my car. He said, hey, are you coming back?

And I got pissed because I thought, he thinks he broke me. And I turned around and went, yeah, I'm coming back. Meanwhile, I couldn't even go down the stairs like the next day. I was so sore. But then I ended up on a beach cruiser rolling around Coronado and I saw a sign for CrossFit Coronado. And you were just, like, you were just opening. You were one of the first members that ever came through the door. You guys listening?

I was the first. one of the first members. I was the first. Fair enough. For today, you can be the first. I'm not going to correct you. Because I don't actually remember who the first person was. Yeah, because it was me.

You know the gym is still open. It is. I have not been back. I've gone by, walked by all the things, but I haven't gone back for a workout. And I go there often. I go to Coronado a lot. Yeah. But.

That was, yeah, that was my first, let me think here. Yeah, it was the first business that I ever opened. A lot of learning experiences. Yeah. That's my first intro into really coaching people and realizing that it's 80% therapy, 20% actual coaching. It is a lot of therapy. You have to be pretty emotionally intelligent to be, I think, a successful trainer. I'm not so sure about that.

No? I think if you can sit there and really pretend like you're listening, you're going to survive. I think you and I have two different philosophies. I'm not saying my philosophy is correct. I'm just saying it's a lot more than just teaching somebody how to do a deadlift. I was surprised actually at how open people would want to be about their lives. Oh, yeah. They do.

They really do spill a lot. Yeah. Are you still working for CrossFit? I am not. I resigned in March this year. Okay. We're going to get to that in the second. Yeah.

We met at the CrossFit, Jim. When did you start working for CrossFit? 2010. Yeah. So we moved back east. I opened a CrossFit Gym. Yeah. You were killing it too, right?

Yeah. Jim was super successful, was running the affiliate for a while, but then by weird circumstances, everybody always asked, how do you get on CrossFit seminar staff, right? That's a question. And back then it was a very organic process for a lot of people. There wasn't like one roadmap. Well, it was tinier too because it was still, I mean, I remember, the peak, there would be like five to seven seminars per weekend.

Right. But in the earlier days, you were kind of competing to get a slot for the seminar that would potentially be available. Yeah. And I just crossed paths with, you know, significant people. I've met you. I met Dave. I met Joe Alexander.

And organically just kind of came to say, hey, come do this internship. And so I did in 2010 came on staff. Okay. And then you were teaching level ones for quite some time, right? Yep. Level ones, which panned into level twos. And then I became a flow master. so that's just a course supervisor.

Yeah, and I did that until, well, really until Chad died. I went back for two seminars since he's passed, and that's been three years, and then I resigned in March. Why did you decide to resign? March of 22. Yeah, this year. So, you know, it's hard to explain the CrossFit community to people who aren't in it. And there's a lot of people who do CrossFit. I mean, the CrossFit seminar staff community.

And it has the potential to be really powerful. And I've met people that have impacted my life so profoundly and some of my dearest friends. And so it was more than just a job to me. It was very much an identity. And when Chad died, I remember saying to my girlfriend, like, who am I supposed to be on so many levels, right? I'm no longer a wife. I'm not a spouse. I lost my best friend.

I, you know, do I work for CrossFit? All these questions. And so I went back. maybe January of 2020, I think, and tried to work a seminar. And just my headspace was really messed up. And I just knew I wasn't being a good teammate. And they were awesome to me. They really gave me a lot of grace and a lot of support and just said,

we'd love to have you whenever you're ready to come back. So the beginning of this year, I made the decision. I was like, all right, I'm going to go try. I'm going to go try to do this because I missed it. And I went, but some really interesting things happened that weekend. I went, the seminar staff I worked with were awesome. The participants were awesome. But I didn't have a lot of pictures of me in the red shirt working because I just wasn't

that person snapping pictures all the time. And I'd asked the flowmaster, will you take a picture of me while I'm on the box demoing? She says, sure. And she showed me the picture afterwards and I was in the bottom of a squat. But in the classroom at this specific gym are all the flags for the military. But the only flag that shows up in the picture above my head is a U.S. Navy SEAL flag. And on the wall, just randomly, I can show you this picture later. It just said, believe, which I thought was really random.

But then in front of the picture, one of the participants who was sitting there, you could see the back of a shirt and it said stop soldier suicide. Fuck. And I was like, wow, that's a crazy picture. Fast forward. I met an awesome couple that weekend. They were taking the course together. Their daughter got sick on Sunday. They didn't know if they'd be able to finish the course.

I was talking to them about what the next steps would be, right, if they had a dip early. Well, they stayed. We said goodbye to everyone at the end of the course. And when I said goodbye to them, they just kind of walked by me, eyes glazed over. I was like, man, that's weird. Then the guy comes up to me and he says, hey, can I talk to you for a minute? And I said, sure. And as I was walking away, I look over as we're walking towards his wife and she's just bawling.

And I'm like, oh, man, what's wrong with their daughter? So I said, oh, my gosh, are you okay? and she said, I looked at you all day yesterday, and I couldn't figure out what it was, but I knew I knew you. And she said, so I went on social media, and I went on a dive and I figured it out, and I realized who you were. She said, I've listened to your podcast, and I don't know, it was a while ago, two years ago or something that she wasn't doing CrossFit or anything. And she shared that she had lost her dad the same way. And she just remember saying, I want to be strong like you one day. and she went outside and she did modified Chad on a box and then thus kind of set her trajectory,

I guess, towards fitness. And that impacted me big to have, there's been a lot of great, sad, emotional, but good connections that have happened since my loss. And I think once I returned home, I just felt like I needed that weekend and those things to happen to realize that I probably am on another path. now. I think the hardest part, one of the hardest parts about grief and that people really don't understand unless you've experienced it is that it doesn't allow, for sometimes it doesn't allow you to return to parts of your life even if you want to. And that's how I feel about CrossFit. So I love it.

I love that family. I love that job. I think that I'm a very good trainer. I just can't go back. And that sucks. It's just the truth. It makes sense, though. Yeah. Do you feel strong? It depends on the day. And I ask that question because I can't even fathom going through and living through what you have.

And I think it's easy for people to get a snapshot and watch somebody for a weekend and be like, fuck. That's what I need. That's what I want to be like. But behind the curtain, it may not be the same. I mean, I'll use working for CrossFit as an example. I worked for many years teaching the seminars. So holding the same roles. Flowmaster started off the way that they like a movement lecture, then technique,

and then working your way up to it until they're like, all right, go to town. And then they're like, okay, stop saying these particular words because we got all these complaints. That was my journey, probably not yours. And you're very aware of that because you probably worked some seminars with me where I got a little off the rails with answers. Hey, we could go back and forth on these kind of stories all day because there are good ones in the vault. But there are, there were weekends where I didn't want to be there. Yeah. And I'm sure that happens with everybody, but I can put a face on for 48 hours.

And I knew what they, what people were paying and I knew how important it was for them. But just because you can put a face on for 48 hours, it doesn't mean that you're doing okay. Yeah. I think it's, I don't know, I try to, I tread lightly talking with people. who have lived through what you have lived through and saying things like, I want to be strong like you because at the end of the day, I would rather ask you, like, Sarah, how are you actually doing? Yeah, I actually had a complete stranger asked me that recently.

And I was so appreciative. He probably will never know. But it was I took my son to an orientation at college. He just started college. And this was. Which is mind blowing in and of itself. Right. A month or two ago, because you remember him as like a little dude with ape hanger handlebars on his bike.

Yep. And I met this dad, and so we were talking, and his son's obviously going to college, and he made a comedy. He said, so you're divorced. No. I said, I'm a widow, and he said, oh, you could just see his eyes get big. And I didn't even, he didn't ask how, thankfully. But then a few minutes passed by, and he goes, can I ask you a question? And I said, sure.

And he goes, how are you doing right now? And that's pretty sincere. So, you know, for people who are listening, just don't do platelets. Don't you know you're so strong. He's in a better place. You know, at least be happy for the time you had. Just leave all that stuff at the door. And just be real. And it's okay to ask those questions. I find that it's actually really hard for people to be real. Yeah. For me, it's easier because I think I was born without a filter. You think? I have a few friends that have said, I'm not sure if you have Asperger's or you're just an asshole. Because you will say an ass question. that other people won't at times that others wouldn't. I'm like, oh, does that mean like we're good friends? Are you insulting me right now? Because you can fuck right off if you are.

I'm like, I just am who I'm sorry. I can't help. It's tough to be real. It's tough to ask those questions. Most people, thankfully, will never have to touch anything other than super peripherally, maybe know somebody who knew somebody that you have lived through. I just think they don't know what to say. Well, and you know, everyone, no one gets out of this life without heartache, right?

So everyone is going to experience loss at some point. And death, yeah. But when you experience, as my fellow widow girlfriend say, an out of timeline death, right? Chad was 42. He wasn't supposed to die. And it came out of nowhere. So that's pretty life-altering, crushing. So I think for me, I live pretty wide open.

And I've had to talk to my kids about this a little bit too. I've obviously been on podcasts and I share a lot through social media. And I think I do that because the world needs to have a little more realness. Not everything is shiny and polished and pretty. It's just not. And especially when it comes to like love, loss, heartache, I think you've got to share the shitty stuff too. Yeah. And you can share it, or at least I try, to share it appropriately to where hopefully it makes sense and strikes a nerve with either people who've never experienced it or people who maybe have but just don't have the voice to speak up.

I don't know anybody who's gone through life or achieved something that would be described as that shiny that isn't behind the scenes a stairway of shit they had to climb. Yeah. I mean, maybe they're out there where they truly just got, you know, gifted the best. of life and silver spoon. But most of the time I've watched that go the other direction. Right. This is one of the things I hate about social media. It's wave tops and not the valleys.

And I think the valleys and how you deal with the valleys say a lot more about you than how you deal with the best of days. Right. Which for me, that's, I know, pretty average experience across both. But easy days are a hell of a lot easier to deal with than the trenches, if you were. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's easy to celebrate the.

good stuff, right? It's hard to share all the bad stuff. And sometimes you, you know, you don't share the bad stuff because you're waiting for someone to comfort you. You share it just because it's like, no, this is real. This is how I feel. This sucks. Yeah. Thankfully, I also have really amazing friends and family in my life. And I know that I am incredibly, so incredibly fortunate to have so many amazing people to support me. That makes sense. So Chad had gotten out of the military. When did he first come in?

I mean, you guys have basically, I'm just going to say you were born at essentially the same time and grew up as neighbors. You guys had known each other for longer than I've ever known a human being. Right. Yeah. First day of high school, right? So I was a teenage girl with crushes on starting to like boys and saw him the first day of high school and was done. I mean, have you seen him? Yeah.

He's pretty hot, right? I mean You can use like your dude meter I mean I've had guys Good looking guys say to me He was a dime piece I was like I don't know if I would have said it that way

But He was a good looking man Right Yeah I might swing both ways Brad Pitt If I'm being honest Brad Pitt's a good looking guy

No he was Yeah He was a striking gentleman He just was always good looking So yeah We met when we were kids So basically that 27 years is how long I had him in my life. Why did he decide to get out the first time?

I think we just both kind of chalked it up to the grass is greener. Our parents, our dads were both military. So we met in a military DOD high school, right? We didn't know any other life than being in the military. All he ever wanted to do was be a seal. But once we had our daughter and then I was pregnant with our son, I think we both were just trying to do the parent thing. Like, oh, you're gone a lot.

Let's try to create a little more normalcy for our own kids. Let's raise them in the same town. So they have the same friends. I mean, I can name you like two friends from my childhood that I really still, well, maybe more now since losing Chad. But, you know, I mean, I just didn't stay in touch with friends. We moved all the time. So he gets out.

Where were you guys living at that time? We were in Virginia Beach. He was on the East Coast. Yeah. He was always East Coast. What was his original Bud's class? Or not his original Bud's class. What was his Buds class?

204. Son of I was going to talk shit. Yeah. But I can't. What were you? 212. Which is historically known and as written down as the hardest class that there ever was. Right under 204.

That wasn't actually in the record books, but it's fine. I'm pretty sure I read 204, maybe 212. I mean, I'm actually not allowed by the bylaws to talk shit about people who went to buds before me, but everyone after is free game. So I won't argue. I know. I tell people 204 and they kind of go, oh. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, he was an old guy.

But yeah, we were in Virginia Beach and the last, he took a trip, work trip, skydye. Not to interrupt you. Pre-9-11, though, right? Yeah, yeah, 96. I think it was April of 96 he graduated. Yep, that makes sense. He was skydiving with buddies and he told me that they would follow the plane and they'd say, you're not going to do this for your pharmaceutical buddies.

So they were giving them big shit for getting out and leaving. He'd done 10 years. But he got out, got a job with him pharmaceutical research, you know, worked in a cubicle. Rumor is all the ladies had a crush on him. I mean, probably some of the dudes. Let's just say a lot of people had a crush on him. And yeah, so we got out. And I always share with people, if, you know, if you're looking at the, quote, American dream, right, the standard, we had that.

He had a good job, made good money. We had a house, two little kids. We had friends. And we hated it. Well, how did he land on pharmaceutical sales? So it was research. He was in research. His dad was in the Navy for retired.

I always get this wrong because I get his dad and my dad mixed up. let's say 24 years, got out, and that was kind of the direction he went, is in pharmaceuticals. So he worked with various companies. My sister-in-law also works in pharmaceuticals, and so just kind of led him down that path. Which is good that he had that off-ramp post-military. Yeah, yeah. And he went and became a project manager. And, you know, of course, he was like, all right, what do I have to do to, like, succeed here?

Level up to the very top. Exactly. So he was like chipping away and just doing what he had to do. Yeah. Probably a slightly different job satisfaction and fulfillment, though. Oh, I wish I would have recorded some of his conversations when he would come home at night because you could just tell how much he's like, I don't even know. I'm sitting in the break room. There's baby showers happening.

I mean, I mean, I've shared the story before, but I distinctly remember us doubting our decision basically from the minute it started. We tried to do the best we could because we're not quitters. We're both like, we're going to do this. But he left for work one day in a shirt and tie. And I do not find that attractive. Really? You didn't like dressed up, Chad. No.

Oh, I like Chad, however he was dressed. Like, anyway, Chad is great. Love him. I'm just saying, like, I was raised as a military kid. You know, my dad left for work in, like, camis or a suit, you know, like his uniform. And then Chad, you know, team guys, not really so many uniforms happening. What are you talking about? Flip-flops, shorts, t-shirts, gators, hat.

Yeah. I mean, you know, it's like carry a pocket knife, have a gun, you know, like manly. I mean, it's not written down anywhere that that's a uniform, but let's be honest. You and I, if there was a team guy in this town and we were driving by, I'd be like, team guy. Okay, it's so funny you say that because Chad and I had this argument all the time and I would say, I can spot you guys a mile away. He's like, no, you can't. You're only saying that because we're in Virginia Beach. I'm like, no, I can tell.

I can just tell by the way you walk. But, yeah, he left for work, and I remember flipping his tie. And I said, that's dumb. We're going back in. And we sold our house. And we sold half of what we owned. And we put another, like, fourth of it in storage. And we filled up a U-Haul.

I flew to Coronado with our two kids. He drove a U-Haul, eating some blood of seeds, drinking Red Bull, and just plowed cross-country. I mean, if you're going to do it, that's the way. Because west of the Appalachians, it's a little flat. Yeah. I've done both of those drives and, God, damn. Thankfully, there's some energy drinks that can help you along the way. Well, I don't know.

I'm in the middle of a long road trip. You're breaking it up, though. That's true. He was on a cannibal run. Yeah, he was. It was like, yeah, that's the only way you can do it until you get to the Rockies and then it's a little bit better. Yeah. So he, yeah, so we came back in.

And then I got to meet you, Andy Stomp. Indeed. One of the low lights of your story in life, I'm sure. Fuck. Did he do any pre-9-11 deployments? Yes. And how about post-9-11? Yes.

At a conventional team? What was his thoughts about the community as they transition from a peacetime to a wartime community? I mean, I don't want to say I don't know, but I, Chad's whole, he always wanted to be a seal. He always wanted to be a freaking door kicker. He wanted to be down doors and take out bad guys. So I don't think he ever voiced, at least to me, how things changed within the teams and the community other than he just wanted to keep going. Did he have a different mentality post 9-11? I asked because it was a very large shift from, I mean, essentially after Vietnam, there was Grenada, Panama, Black Hawkdown had, I think,

think four seals were present there, but that was it as far as actual real door kicking, which for clarity is fucking terrible tactic. I'm glad that the community went away from that. But it was 30 years of pretty conceptual rearward looking tactics based. I mean, I remember Team 5 when I first got there, jungle boots, like Vietnam, probably not Vietnam era, but Vietnam designed jungle boots. the tactics were super maritime based rivers and streams and you know hydrographic reconnaissance i'm sure he was doing all the same stuff and then boom nine 11 hey so gear list for a largely landlocked

country yeah it was it was a shift and i think for a lot of people how can i say this you saw based off the career choices people made post nine 11 and i'm speaking very broadly here that some pursued a path that would put them towards the pointy edge of the stick and others who pursued a path that would maybe keep them away from that. And I don't necessarily have judgment of that. But coming from 30 years of a peacetime military, peacetime seal community, boom, okay, we're now going to actually go do our job against a resisting enemy. I don't think it's unfair to say that there were those who actually didn't want

a piece of that. Yeah, that's interesting the way you're asking me. I guess I haven't thought about it that way, but if I think back, so. I just remember watching 9-11 happen on a TV. Yeah. And thinking, well, I'll probably get a call here in about 30 minutes. And I should be wherever these fuckers are from in about two hours. Yeah. Two years later, I still hadn't gone anywhere, but that's. Yeah. Well, same. I mean, I remember, we all remember where we were, right? And he was at work and he came home. He still had his PT gear. And we just stared at each other. We were so young and had a new baby. And so when I think about it, the way you're saying it,

I mean, when we got out of the military, that was 2004-ish. So he probably had done at least one workup and deployment post-9-11. And I don't think his mindset was I don't want to be a part of that, right? Because the world was like, okay, shit's ramping up. I think it was just Chad was trying to do the right thing. And he comes from like a family family. Right? Like his mom and dad are still married.

And I think in his mind, he's like, all right, I got to do what's going to be best for my wife and my kids at that point. But when we got out, obviously Red Wings happened in 2005. I remember where I was watching the news, right? And Chad's face, I think that started the shift for him. And so then it was a matter of, okay, if we go back, I want to go back and I want to go here. So he already knew about development group. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And he knew that that's ultimately where he would want to be.

How much time did he spend out? It was about two and a half years. So I think the way the world was, because everyone's like, how did he get back in? How did that happen? Well, that was going to be my question was not going to be how, but how was the process? Yeah. So he had talked to a couple people. And I think because of the state of the world, because he had had some 10 years of experience under his belt, They were like, yeah, you can come back. But because he hadn't deployed in close to three years, they said that you'd have to go through SQT again, which was STT when he went. So in order to do that, you got to go back out to Coronado. So then we decided, okay, if you go out to Coronado, then you'll go to a – and then they said you'd have to go to a team.

Right? So he said, okay, I'll do that. I'll go to a West Coast team because he wanted his whole family to come with him. So that's why we all moved out there. The deal was he was going to go through SQT six months, I think, about that, something. I want to say it's like six months. It starts getting hazy for me about the post-bloods pipelines. And then I think he was slotted to go to Team 7.

And it was cool. I think he enjoyed it. Chad was one thing I loved about him is that he was such a natural teacher. He was really good at teaching you what he knows without making you feel stupid. And I find a lot of value when I meet other people that are like that. And so I think he enjoyed the SQT process, even though he had to go back through because he saw all these young guys. And they talked about gear and all kinds of stuff. His trajectory was go to a West Coast team, but somebody from the East Coast came and spoke to the class and kind of said, hey, long term, if this is what you're thinking, X, Y, Z is what you got to do.

And he talked to them and they kind of said, you don't need to go. You need to come screen now. So they let him screen right at SQT. Yeah. I mean, fortunate or unfortunate, depending on how you look at it. But, yeah. I mean, I distinctly remember making breakfast and him coming in our apartment and saying, I'm going to go to Virginia Beach in January and do this thing.

And I remember. That's right. They had changed the screening when you went out there for a short period of time. Yeah. I mean, yeah, so we weren't out there very long. Yeah, it's fortuitous that we were able to actually cross paths because I was doing the Bud's instructor bit. And then I got commissioned and went to Team 3. But I only directly interacted with Chad a few times.

Yeah. But he did, I remember the conversations we did have, he was asking me about the command on the East Coast and I mean, I try to always just be honest about my experience there. You know, people want to say, what's, it's a, what's, tell me about the command. I'm like, okay, first off, much like the government, it's a bunch of people. Some of them are awesome. Some of them you would want to step on with your boot and scrape them off on carpet somewhere because they suck.

And you might encounter both of those people over there. So I tried to give them an honest. at least my own experience and assessment. My experience there I would describe was good. I had, you'd never believe this. Small shouting match with a senior enlisted member on my departure from there. We had a disagreement about an agreement that had been made about giving me a little bit of time off to recover, which didn't end up working out that way, which is kind of why I ended up leaving.

But, yeah, it was, I forgot that he was in SQT at the time. He must have been like Papa Santa Claus to those 18 and 19 year olds. I mean, I think he really enjoyed. Oh, he was the Oracle. He was like the Neo of SQT. They would just come to him and like download the Matrix into us. Because I mean, at that point, if you didn't have his path, you've gone, you know, Navy Boot Camp. I think they had the pre-selection pipeline at that point.

Buds and all three of those don't teach you how to be a team guy. Yeah. And SQT, I think they will write the first chat. of the novel. But if I had been in one of those young kids' shoes and a guy had 10 years of experience, oh man, he would have hated me. Like, so what about this? What about that? What would you do here? Yeah, I think he liked it. I really do. I think he enjoyed it. Yeah. Well, it was to their benefit for sure. Those are gems, hidden gems that I don't think people realize until so much later on. Yeah. Did you have any trepidation about him coming back in in a post-9-11 world?

You know, I've been asked that before and no. And maybe that's just being naive. Maybe that's love, right? I just think he was born to do this. I mean, from when we met in high school and he would talk about being a Navy SEAL, I didn't even know what one was. How did he know what was? His dad was a seal and his uncle was a seal. So he comes from like a legacy, right?

So he definitely knew what they were. Definitely knew what they were. He'd watched every film. I think we still have them on VHS in our attic. And, you know, I mean, him and his brothers, that's what they did when they were kids running around, you know, playing like military guys. So it's just what he always wanted to do. And so when he said he wanted to go back in, I'm trying to think, like, I just think I wanted to be supportive of him and that. And at the time I was a stay-at-home mom with our two kids and doing the best I can and just take care of these little people. And so marriage is compromised, right? For some people, not everybody. Did you have an understanding of what that East Coast command was?

No. Did he? I don't know. I mean, I'd like to think so because Chad. He had the family lineage, but did either of his family members serve there as well? No, no, no. But he was very, Chad was very intelligent and he was very, like he would think long and hard about things. Sometimes that would drive me absolutely nuts.

I'd be like, dude, just do it. Just go do it. So I would like to believe that he had really put in his due diligence of understanding what he was doing. I mean, and there's, you know, there's like this whole smoke and mirrors when it comes. to Navy SEAL. You see Navy SEAL in people's heads like pop. Yeah. You know? Unfortunately, yes.

When really, they're just normal dudes, you know, they're just some dudes. But he was very driven, always very goal-oriented, and he just figured that that's the best. And if you're the best, you go there, and I want to be part of the best. So that's what I want to go do. So your guys' time in Coronado was actually quite short. Very short, which I was very upset. Maybe just over a year? No, less than that.

Really? Yeah. I didn't realize that we had crossed paths for that short of a period of time. You are welcome. True. I'll journal about it tonight. Dearest diary. Yeah, it was very short.

I think September, I got there in September and I think we left in April. I guess I didn't realize it was so short because we would bounce into each other in the Crossfoot world. Yeah. So I still would see you even though you guys had separated coasts. Yeah. Did you, so you went back, you guys moved back as he was going through selection? Yeah, which was, what year? 2008.

Okay. Which was a miserable time. Selection was? It was hard. It was stressful. It was very, well, let's back up. It's when I also started my first business, a lot of learning curves there. So I, we moved back, didn't know where we wanted to live, rented an apartment because he

was screening, so we kind of just didn't know, right? rented a little garage in the parking lot of an apartment complex and outfitted out with enough stuff to work out for two people. Because at the time, there were only two gyms in Virginia Beach, and they didn't really, they didn't say I couldn't bring my kids, but there was really nowhere for them to be safely in the gym. So we just outfitted our garage. And then it was just like Kevin Costner.

If you build it, it will come. People just started showing up to my garage. And so then I opened a gym while Chad was going through Green Team, which I would not recommend to anybody to start a business. That's like two magnets being pulled in the opposite direction. And then basically our lives were 110 miles per hour from then on. Yeah. And it seems like it could very easily be on a relatively parallel road, but oftentimes turning in different directions. Yeah. It definitely got that way. How did you manage that?

I will just run myself ragged, you know? I mean more, I guess not the business, but how did you maintain your closeness to Chad with that time, distance, and separation apart? Yeah. He was very much a family guy. So, you know, he would tease me sometimes and he'd say, well, I don't have friends. You have friends. I don't have friends.

I don't want friends. You're my friend. And I'd be like, well. He had plenty of friends. Yeah, I know he had friends. And I'm like, yeah, but you can go out, like go drink beers with dudes or whatever, whatever you dudes do. Go do some dude things. We do the same stuff that you ladies do, but it's just dudes.

But we're, but girls are more fun. And they're also less dangerous because the dudes will at some point be like, oh, we'll throw things at each other or there's a chainsaw over there or let's steal that car. Yeah. He just, when he was gone on a trip, the deal was if you're gone, you're gone. And if you're home, you're home. And I encouraged him to go out and do things. I'm not saying I was that type of spouse, but he really liked to be with the kids and I. So when he was home with trips, we were together.

Took advantage of the time that you had. Yeah, yeah, we tried. Yeah. It's tough to describe the operational cycle of even just a conventional team pre-9-11. You know, you can break it out and say, oh, this is our 18-month cycle and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. People are like, oh, that's not too bad. It's like, yeah, but even when we're home, we're still training a lot. So you're kind of, you're there-ish, physically present, perhaps mentally checked out, worried about your next day.

And, yeah, this training is in the U.S., but we can't do that where we live, so we have to drive over here. It's a shit show. And then the operational cycle, at least I can't even speak to what it is now because I know they've added a squadron and a bunch of other stuff. But you want to talk about a high-tempo organization. Yeah. Holy shit. That was like a treadmill on, I don't know. Yeah.

Well, let's say they can put a treadmill on a team. 10, that place would be like trying to get a flat dead start onto something that's on an eight and not hit your face on the ground. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the tempo, and I've talked about that and like speeches I've given and stuff. It's not for the faint of heart for the active duty and for their spouses. I mean, and I'm going to go ahead and say it, and you're probably going to have a comment.

Navy SEALs are badasses. They're wives. are fucking badasses. I mean, if you... I would agree with you. You have to be so independent and so resilient and self-assured and confident. Sometimes it's exhausting. But you also have to manage a lot.

And so it's definitely a unique dynamic. It's not for everybody. Just like being a seal isn't for everybody. And there's a lot of unspokenness that goes on. And so just like with the guys, right, you will be at barbecues and guy, be like, hey, man, did you go, you going to do a thing? Yeah. We leave Tuesday, whatever. And you're like, whatever they're talking about.

And the same thing with the women, you know, we also understood, depending on what group your husband was, you kind of stick together because they're on the same cycle. If all of our husbands are gone, then we stick up for each other and help each other out. and it has the potential to be powerful. It also has the potential to be harmful. I mean, like so many things in life, but... I would only add an asterisk to what you said. Some Navy SEALs are badass. Some of the wives are badass.

And the reason I would add that word to the front of it is, it's a very bizarre job. And in my experience, It was incredibly common people. And this is not my phrase. I've heard other people say this. And I totally agree with it, though. It's really common people tasked with doing some very uncommon things.

But most of them are average intelligence, average build. There's some, I mean, there's some superstars and there's some absolute anchors. And I mean that in the most negative sense of the word. I just had a picture coming in my mind. Yeah. But there's both. But so again, it's just people. some people

and I've talked about this actually quite a bit the honor man in my bud's glass is in prison with his wife he was a murder oh wow they lured a couple back to their house killed them chopped them up put them into grocery store stop it swore to go Ben Seifrett he's in prison right now just got denied parole

but he's going to have to be released I think in 10 years or something like that so he will be out he will get a podcast invitation I hope he loses his mind and that's I'm gonna leave I'm not going to say anymore because I don't want to legally fuck myself future I never heard that. It happened on the East Coast up in Maryland, I believe.

I'll send you a link. It's no big deal. It's a fun article. But my point in bringing him up is it's a bizarre occupation which can draw some unstable and bizarre individuals. There are people who see being a seal as something other than service. They're scratching an itch or they think that they're going to scratch an itch for themselves. And what I'll say is that also applies on the spouse side as well. There were some of the most wholesome, rock solid individuals on both, on both, the active duty and the significant other side of the house.

And there were some insane motherfuckers in both as well, too. Neither of them do a good job of painting the community well because it's just this conglomerate of individuals. And I find that the ones that are the train wrecks oftentimes paint. with a deeper brush than the ones who kind of are just sitting there doing their job and doing their thing. Well, I think we also get pushed in this funnel, right? Just like we're talking about, if you manage to go to Buds and become a seal, everyone says, oh, the training's so hard. So it's got to elicit this one type of person, this badass.

And so same thing with the spouses. Like if you're married to the person, you must be this type of person when really, at the end of the day, we're just people, right? You're just people. And the broad brush approach is one that I always cautioned people against because I don't know of a single community, you know, political, religious doctors. Like there's no, there's no community that's pure because it's full of people and some of those people are super fucked up. Yeah. And at the end of the day, it's a job title. And I'll be honest with you, Bud's training isn't that hard.

It's painful. But at 18, when you don't have shit else to do. Yeah. And you really enjoy watching other people quit. That's terrible. Is it, though? I know some kids and buds right now. Yeah.

Yeah. I hope they're suffering wherever they are. I hope they're in the water and a wave is crashing over their face. And it goes in their nose, mouth, and ears at the same time. Oh, you're terrible. I'm not terrible. It needs to be hard. Yes.

But I, and I bet you, Chad, would agree with this. I could teach a monkey to do the things that they taught us. to do. So they screened us for what I think looking back on it, there's obviously the physical requirements. Like you have to meet a certain physical criteria to do all the stuff they ask. There is a mental toughness component to that. I think a lot of it, what they're actually screening for is problem solving ability, like critical thinking and problem solving. I used to think it was heavy on the critical thinking. And then I've since watched some guys that I used to work with go very deep down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole. So I have some concerns

about whether or not they're really screening for critical thinking because some of the rabbit holes they've gone down are fucking terrifying to me. And they make these really long posts and I will just be an asshole and I'll just write, hey, if you need help, just ask for it. There's an easier way than writing eight paragraphs. It's like, fuck. You're killing me. But it's not, it's, it does hurt, but it's six months of your life.

Yeah. It's not that hard. And it also, it doesn't. it doesn't necessarily prepare you for or equip you for success or equip you with the tools for success later on in life like I think some people do think some people think it does like you said if you say the term Navy SEAL people's head snap yeah it opens doors that some people are not qualified to walk through and I've seen that happen many times and I've seen underqualified people in my opinion under qualified people have opportunities placed

in front of them because of the stupid fucking $3 pin that we wore on our uniform. And that organization or an entire community will have a bad experience with that person because at some point, you gotta separate the wheat from the chaff and they're asked to do a job and they're not doing a really good job. So eventually they get let go or they'll have an explosion,

you know, metaphorical explosion at work. And then that door becomes closed to everybody that could have followed behind them. It's a double-edged sword for sure. But it's not, it's not, It's not as big of a deal as people make it out to be. Yeah. Unfortunately.

Well, I think. I wish it was. I wish we were issued a fucking cape at the end of buds. It's not the case. It's poncho liner, which doesn't do shit. I do have a cape. I have my own cape. Has my name on it.

True story. I will send you a picture. Okay. I knew Chad, you know, long before he became a seal. And I was grateful for that. Like, I felt like anyway, I knew him to his core. But, you know, talking about reputations, once you are a wish, widow to one of these guys. I don't know if everybody feels this way. I can't speak for the other ladies,

but I feel a lot of pressure to represent him in the best possible way. And I had a friend, one of his old COs, say, you are not Chad. You are not 100% Chad. Chad is not 100% you. but I think, and I get what he's saying, and it makes total sense, but it's just hard because I see him a certain way. I'd like to believe he had a good reputation. Everybody says that, but then everybody says good things about someone who's died. That's not true. Well, not you, not you, because you don't have a filter. We've already determined that.

But, like, you know, everyone says nice things, and so you want to assume he has this good reputation. So now moving forward, it's just. sometimes it's a lot of pressure. Yeah. Are you putting that on yourself or do you feel that coming from other people? No, I'm sure it's all self-imposed. It's just how I am. I mean, we both are pretty, I would say, type A-driven people.

Yeah. So, yeah. How can you be yourself if you feel that pressure to represent him? I mean, I feel like I am myself as much as I can, but, you know. It's a lot of weight, though. It is. And you feel, you know, especially when you still live in the same town, you know, our communities, East Coast, West Coast is a little better because it's a little more spread out. Virginia Beach is pretty condensed and you're on top of people.

I have a PowerPoint just so you know that explains why the West Coast is better. And it goes on for hours. We could start with the weather. Well. How about we could talk about the humidity? Yeah. A little bit of that. Pretty soon I'm going to park my van on the West Coast.

Why do you think I'm here? I'm driving there. But, you know, I mean, just being in Virginia Beach, I think all of us that are still there feel it a little bit of that. And this is not because anybody in the community has said anything or done anything wrong or made me feel this way. But you do feel like they're kind of watching you, you know. Well, you can't escape it. Yeah. I mean, for people who, I mean, I'm assuming people who listen to this podcast understand my military background.

But for people not familiar with the SEAL teams, you have San Diego for odd teams and Virginia Beach for even. It's the most densely populated seal area. There's Hawaii and some other places you can go. But I mean, let's say, I mean, obviously with Hawaii and a couple of other disassociated tours, let's say half of the SEAL community is in Virginia Beach proper. Yeah. How could you not, there's no way you're going to escape that. Yeah. It's the most densely populated seal area in the United States.

Yeah. So it's painful, you know, and you walk around and you see guys and you see guys with their family. And, you know, like you said, you can spot him a mile away. I mean, I can see a team guy come and blocks. So it's just hard. Yeah. Have you ever thought about leaving? Always.

I mean, right after his death, I thought that I would pack up and go to Coronado, which I know sounds against what I'm talking about because I'm just moving one community to another. But I just love it there. Yeah. One of my best friends lives there. And I just am happy. But because my kids were 17 and 14, they were a freshman and junior, I felt like I had to provide some normalcy for their life that just got upended and leave them in the same high school. In hindsight, I wish I would have left. I love Virginia Beach.

I do. I have an amazing support structure and a great community. It's great. But I need a break. And I need to just like be. One of the best things that I think I ever did for myself was leave San Diego to come here. So we crossed the border here the first day of July 2017. So just over the carry the one five years ago.

And getting out of the seal dense environment, the Coronado thing actually makes sense to me. Again, people may not understand. even though you have VB and SD, you probably know a lot of the people in VB, but as somebody who did most of their career on the West Coast, you're running into people all the time. I've never fucking seen that guy. I don't know that guy.

Because it's so, I mean, they're doing the same things, but I barely knew the people with the team next to me. I didn't even know everybody who was at the team with me. I'm just like super tasks saturated and focused on like six friends. I'm like, oh, yeah, I think that guy works with me. I'm not so sure. I fuck that guy anyway. People like, it's wrong with him.

I'm like, nothing. That's just what I say. It's my normal salutation. I can understand moving to Coronado, but for me to get, and I don't know if it's healthy, actually. I don't stay in good contact or really any contact with guys that I used to serve with. You think that's not healthy? I don't know where I land on it yet. I really, some of the closest friends I've ever had in my life. Guys are different than girls when it comes to this, though, too.

One of the guys who was up there is one of my groomsmen. a new forever, ex-team guy, but we also caught up on five years worth of shit in three minutes. You know, it's just like, hey, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, we're good. Guys don't communicate as well as women. I think we can go ahead and just say, slat the table.

The science is out on that one. 1,000%. So, again, I don't know if it's healthy because maybe I'm choosing to do that because I'm choosing to not work through something that comes from that world. or I'm choosing to look in the front, you know, the windshield as opposed to the rearview mirror and focus on the road that's coming at me. Well, yeah, you've kind of gone, you've made a different path for yourself, right?

And kind of in some ways created this different identity. But I had to, I actually think the geographic separation was one of the biggest things that I have in my favor. Because not that I'm an island. And there is a large retired military community and special operations community up here in like the Calaisbell Whitefish area. I don't participate in any of the, what the hell do they call it when anybody gets together? A barbecue. A barbecue. But what's like the reunion?

Reunion. They'll do reunions up here. I've never been to a seal reunion. I've not gone to any of my high school reunions. I just, and it's not that I don't want to go. I just don't know if there's a lot of value there for me. I want to just keep, I want to keep moving forward. But without that geographic separation, I don't know if it would have happened as well as it has in San Diego.

I'm not telling you I think you should move, but I think there might be, since you're already thinking about it or wanting to, there might be something there. Well, I think it's also, if you look at the numbers, thinking of myself, right, as a widow, how many widows haven't found another significant other and we live in Virginia Beach? you know yeah there definitely are they have and there's they've moved on and they've found new partners and it's wonderful but there is a large number of us that have not been able to find that and I'm not you know is it is it is it us is it the community is it do you want to find that I do yeah I do yeah I if you would have asked me a year and a half ago I would have said fuck no yeah but another widow said this to me she said and this is what moving the needle. She said, I think the love you had with Chad was the same love I had. She named her husband.

I don't want to call her out. She said, I think that's a once in a lifetime kind of love. She said, but what I also know is I don't want to be alone forever. And when she said that, I don't know what, something completely shifted in me. I mean, I was 41 when he died. I'll be 45 on Thursday. And you have a lot of life to live. And so to potentially think, I'm an empty nester. You know, my daughter lives in San Diego. My son's in college. It's just me, which I'm fine with, but I would like to think that I won't be alone forever for the rest of my life.

That's kind of sad. I think people are meant to have a partner and have someone to share life with. And I think that most of the other amazing women I know feel that deep down. Yeah. I have known some widows who they have very stuck. staunch stance like that was it yeah again i mean i mean i try to stop saying i can't even imagine what you have lived through because i would basically just be saying that for as long as we're sitting here so i can't imagine what they have been through so i have i have no fucking judgment whatsoever

just pure empathy and if that's how they feel and that's what they want to do okay that's their choice to make i land where you land meaning in that i don't i don't want to be alone i don't think life is meant to be lived alone. I don't. Yeah, I agree. I bounced up against that with my divorce. I mean, you know my ex-wife pretty well. And I actually, I wish her nothing but the best. And I do hope that she is able to find somebody and move on because when I first left, my thought was, okay, like, I'm, I'm going to be alone. And that, that headspace sucks. That's a miserable, a miserable existence. And I wouldn't want that for anybody else. And if that and they're like, hey, this is the way it's going to be.

Like, okay, like live your life however you want to, but I do land, I think, more where your headspace is at. However, now you've got to think about, and I'm not trying to take away your experience, right? Divorce is definitely, I would say, more common at our age. But now imagine this. It's like, oh, so you're a widow? Yeah. He was your high school sweetheart.

Yeah. He was the Navy SEAL? Yeah. He was at the command? Yeah. He died by suicide? Yeah. That's a pretty.

pretty big grenade, you know, for someone to walk into. It's like, I get it. So you better be a confident. That's what you'll end up with. Dude. The person that can, it's a tough act to follow. Yeah. It's the only way you can put that. The person that can accept all of that and still stand there and be for you what you need will be the right person for sure. Yeah. They're out there. Somewhere. Somewhere. I think they're in Kansas. Have you toured Kansas? I did. I saw my first tumbleweed there.

Did you notice that the topography is exactly similar to this table? That's funny. When I sat down, I was like, this looks so familiar in Kansas. Yeah, when I took my van out to Colorado to get built out, I drove through Kansas in December. Oh, that's not the time to do that. It was super entertaining. Yeah. No.

Yeah, that's not the time to do that. Spring or fall. It's like five hours from like east to west. The willy wagon goes pretty fast. The willy wagon? Yeah. Perfect. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. So what did Chad think about selection? Because I'll preface that with, when I checked in and started selection, one of the first things they did was give us our supply issue. Oh. Which was like eight shopping carts and people just kept pouring shit into it. And I got more gear than I had ever seen in my, it was like a platoon's worth of gear. Yeah. I knew I was in the right spot.

I currently pay a lot of money for a storage unit that is filled to the ceiling with gear. And here's a fun story. Last summer, I decided to clean it out. So I took picture after picture of myself not knowing what most of it is. I have a suit that is completely white that I zip up. I look like one of those people off of the E.T. Yeah. Is it very thin?

Very thin. It's like a snow. Those are overwhites. So in case you're in an environment which has. snow as a background. You can zip those on. Yep. Well, I put it on and I got in a little ball in my garage and took a picture and sent it to my dad. I was like, can you

see me? I tried on boots. I had a gilly suit on at one point, which is really stinky, but it's in a box. I've got a box that is just fins. I only have two feet, but I have like eight pairs of fins. I've got long ones and short ones and this and that. Have you found

any bags that are just full of other bags? Yes. So I actually took all Chad's bags and laid them out and I put it. I put stick marks and had a count on each box of how many bags were in the box. Sarah, I still have. When I was at Team 5, we were using like old school age gear. And I'm talking like the fabric canteen holder with the plastic, probably World War II, at least Vietnam twist off canteens.

I bet we have those. So they're held on to gear by little clips that go over this so ridiculous piece of shit webbing belt that should have been retired in the Civil War. And they are held on by those clips. I was going through my stuff. And I found an entire bag full of those clips because I'm an idiot. You just never know if they break. One is none, two is one, three is golden.

And for you, it's 15. And six is even better. I have bags of bags, boxes of boxes, bags full of those clips, and I cannot get rid of them. I'm glad he's not alone. I counted our sleeping bags one time. Do you know how many sleeping bags I have? Probably about six. I have 17.

That is actually too many. Right. I mean, is it cold? Is it below zero? Is it like zero to 40 degrees? Is it a light bag? I've got every type of sleeping bag you could possibly want or need. Just remember when it's below zero, go to the host.

hotel. That's what I say. Or the willy wagon. Or the willy wagon, which you probably don't need a sleeping bag in there. You can have a nice, like, down comfort. Yeah, I'm good. Yeah, he was a gear. So, yeah, so he liked the gear. Who doesn't? I mean, yeah, you need a fin for every day and for every occasion. And what if you have to swim in different occasions on the same day? Options. What would make me mad, though, is he would just have duffel bags full of stuff and he would decide that he needed, like, one specific pouch. And he would do one of these and like reach down into like the darkness of the bag and then pull it out and it would just piss me off because I can never find stuff like that.

My storage and filing system is still the same way. Nobody else on earth will understand it. But if you were like, hey, where's that pouch that has the green like felt inside lining and the other pouch? I'd be like right here. Well, here's a question. Did they ever issue you guys speedos? Like no joke speedos swim trunks?

I think they did when I was a bus. That's instructor. Okay. And here's why I ask. They're unworn. Well, here's why I ask. So our neighbors put in a pool while Chad was deployed one time and he came home a couple days early from deployment.

We didn't know, right? So he pops home. He had long hair, beard, just the way I loved him. He comes in and he loved to play practical jokes. He says, oh, this is great. Reaches down in the black duffel bag. Pulls out a speedo. Didn't know he owned.

Puts it on and says, now go upstairs and take a picture of me as I sit next to their pool. So he runs in the backyard. and he's like leaning back with his hair flowing and this stupid speedo. I take a picture and then I blast it to our neighbors. Like, did you get a new pool guy? Because there's a guy in your backyard. And to this day, they still laugh because they didn't recognize him.

You know, they didn't think he'd be home. He's got long hair and a beard. And I was still baffled like, why do you have a speedo? My only guess is it was issued. I'm hoping. 100%. Trust me, there were two thirds of the gear that I was issued, never used, also never thrown away.

I have a lot of things with tags on it. I have like Mustang water survival suits for like fucking like the Arctic. Nice. If I was going to be on the deadliest catch, which I'm not going to. But I still have them. Yeah. Yeah. We've got like mountain hardware overalls.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay. Good. This makes me feel better because my dad's like, when are you going to get rid of it? And I'm like, oh, I don't know. And that's hard to go through his stuff. That's been a whole process in itself.

I can only imagine, especially with it being so much. And yeah, that again, I can't even, I can't even fathom. So what, I mean, obviously he was successful in selection. What were his thoughts about it? Um, I mean, it was hard. He, you know, as they as they wean themselves down closer and closer, it came down to where he, I don't know how to say this or what to share, but like where he had hoped or wanted to go, right? like what squadron he was going to go on.

Was that based off he had probably friends in that particular squadron? I don't really know. See, the thing is, is he wanted to go to one in particular, and that's not where he went. He went because a friend of ours was on another one and pulled him that way. And I told him that I think he saved Chad's life because I think if he had gone where he wanted to go,

I think he would have died sooner. Helicactor? Yeah. Yeah. So that was my old squadron. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, if I would have stayed, obviously there are people that move around.

I think about that one pretty often because that was the troop that I was in. Yeah. So, yeah, you never really know. You just don't know. I mean, who knows how it would have played out. But yeah. And so, and then, you know, once you know, once you're with your group, you're with your group. And that's your brand, so to speak.

Oh, for sure. Plenty of people with plenty of tattoos. Right. It's interesting when they switch and have to get a new tattoo. Fun fact, Chad did not have a single tattoo. Did you know that? Are you sure he was a seal? I thought you're going to ask me just, are you sure? I'm like, I think I know. Yeah, he never got tattoos. He talked about it for a while.

And I was like, there's no freaking way. Most of the guys, it's either not that many or really, really creeping towards a prison body suit. I like tattoos. I wish you would have got some. You have some tattoos. Right. I am a fan. Yeah. So he gets selected for his squadron. How was his transition to the assault team? I mean, he just didn't share a lot with work with me.

You know, he's just super focused. I guess I meant more. Did he seem like he was where he wanted to be? Fulfillment. I think so. I think so. At least in the beginning. And then I think as the years passed, it just shifted. Everything shifted.

You know, when we got there, obviously 9-11 had been going on, or post-9-11, had been going on for many years. But then deaths really started happening. And obviously, there were a handful before we got there. But there were just a lot of deaths and a lot of changes. changes in terms of cycle time and workups and deployments and leadership is always turning over and I think it just really took its toll on him and a lot of people and it just was different. Did you guys talk about the deaths at all? Not really.

Did you go to the funerals? Yes. Yeah. I had to stop at some point. I didn't go. He went to more than I did. I didn't always go. But we did the best we could to attend them.

And I spoke at Chad's funeral. And I remember, and I shared this with the congregation that was there, when I spoke, we had attended a funeral the year before. And we were leaving the chapel where most of the kind of memorials are done. And it was packed, I mean, just packed as they are. and I remember driving out of the parking lot and Chad said, huh, there's a lot of people here. And I said, yeah, there is. And he said, I don't think that many people will come to my funeral. And that, like, there's just a handful of things that really haunt me and that's one of them. And I shared that day when I spoke because his was standing room only.

Like, I don't remember that so much, but people have reminded me. And then I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember walking out. But yeah, when he said it and I kind of was like, what? But most people would think that's such a weird thing that he would say something about his funeral and his death. But in our life, that was the way that you kind of live. I mean, I wasn't on edge thinking he was going to die any moment, but it just became a real true, honest reality that this could happen when he deployed. So it wasn't so weird that he made a comment about his death. It was weird that what he thought about it was nobody would come.

Yeah. So. Yeah, it became an objective reality at some point. The absolute risk associated with deploying at that pace and cycle. Yeah. Yeah. How did he enjoy the deployments when he first started going on them? Did he share much with you, the work that they were doing overseas?

No, not really. And at the time, again, I think. I this is something that haunts me because I can speak to some other wives and they they talk about so they'll mention so many things that'll be like I have no idea what you're talking about so I'm always like was I just oblivious did he not share it with me did he not want to worry me was he just really that kind of professional integrity and didn't want to speak about it I don't really know the answer I you know I kind of chalk it up to we both had these lives chasing careers and we're pretty focused. So it's like, I'm going to handle my stuff. You handle your stuff. We come together for family. I mean, yeah, I think in the beginning, going away on deployment, that's what you're training to do. So, yeah, let's go do it. Let's go out. And then there were definitely some deployments that were slower, I could tell, and now we could utilize FaceTime.

I mean, back in the day, he would either write me a letter or I would miss his call on my home phone, and then I would just have to wait for him to call me back, right? But now you could face time and you could just tell that, you know, they were bored or they were slower. Or with him, he would call me. And if he said, I'll call you when I can, then I always knew that he was going to be busy for a while. So that could be a day or two. That could be a couple days. The communication and ability to communicate with your significant other, that's another one. I don't know where I land on that one.

Okay. So I. Because you can over communicate and establish this pattern of, hey, every day at noon or twice a day. and then they're off the grid for 48, 72, 96 hours, and people are freaking the fuck out. And then there's the other psychopaths who are like, I'm going on an appointment, see you in 90 or 120. Don't wait for my call because I'm not calling.

I'm like, holy shit, man. Yeah, yeah, there really is the full spectrum. Yeah. I just know, not saying I'm like old school, but having back in the day when literally he would call my home phone, and if you're not home, right, you missed the call, I can't call back, to then, you know, transitioning into a life where you hear women say like, oh, you know, we FaceTime and this and that, or just people complaining about FaceTime.

It's like, at least you get to FaceTime. You know, and one can see their face, and especially people have new babies. Yeah. I mean, when our kids were little, if anything, I'm grateful because I have boxes upon boxes of letters that he's written me. That's awesome. So, yeah, they're pretty great. How was his handwriting? It was really good.

Did he write in cursive? Yeah. Yeah. Renaissance man, if you will. Yeah. He had a really good signature. He hated his name, fun fact. Because he would say, this is just like the, I feel so stupid.

I have to introduce myself and say, hey, my name's Chad. I mean, it is the male version of Karen. No, it's not. That's how I use it. Really? Yeah. I mean, obviously your husband was awesome, but if I see a fuckstick dude. And if it was a woman, I would say, oh, that's definitely a Karen.

I'm like, what's up, Chad? Okay, nope, we're changing that name today. I don't know what it should be. Ken is another good one you could go with. Okay, let's pick Ken. Yeah. Yeah, he didn't really like his name, but he did have good handwriting. He had a really good signature.

Was his full name Chadwick by any chance? You know, he tried to pass that off a couple times. And I was like, that's really dumb. That's bullshit, sir. I was like, no. We did have a girl back in the beginning of us running this gym. he would help out from time to time. And one girl came, he put her through a workout.

And she said, thanks, Chip. And so we had a running joke. I'd like to call him Chip sometimes. That would be a good name for the male Karen as well. Chip. Chip. Yeah. It's up Chip.

Yeah, you just just ferocious cunt. Just like, hey, what's up, Chip? How about Brad? Brad's another good one. We do have a good friend named Brad. It's Brad and Chad. Chad, actually when we had our son. I'd go Chad and Brad because then you could abbreviate at cock and balls.

See how you get there? It's just like put him in the right order and you're there. Nope. No. He said when we were pregnant with our son, he said, what if we name him Brad? And I'm like, no, I'm not going to have a Chad and a Brad. No. C and B.

Request denied. C and B. No. Yeah. Yeah. C and B Wilkinson. People like, oh, weird. No.

Chad. I liked his name, but. I mean, it's a good one as far as name goes. Yeah. When did you start noticing a difference in him? I don't think I really noticed it at the time. I was just like, man, what it is off. But looking back, I realized it was much bigger.

And I think it was probably around, I'm going to go back to June of 2018. So he died in October of 2018 for anybody listening. But June of 2018, we took a family vacation. We went to the Grand Canyon, Arizona, bopped around. And he had started. started a new job position. Yeah. And he just, I don't know, he just didn't seem happy.

He seems kind of restless. He, on that vacation, I mean, he was pretty much, like, checked out. We were staying at this awesome resort for a day or two in Scottsdale, and he didn't even want to leave the room. I mean, he just wanted to lay in his bed. And it's like, you're here with your wife and your two kids, you know. and I've shared this before too, but his attention got bad, and so I would be talking to him as spouses do, and he would zone out. And so you just think, oh, that whole selective listening thing.

So I would just say, Chad, Chad, Chad, Chad, Chad. I would do that until he would just look at me. And then he'd say, I remember him going, what, on the couch? I said, did you not hear me? I was doing this whole thing. And he said, you know, you're talking. talking to me and all I'm thinking is like, well, that's not going to kill me and that's not going to kill me.

And I verbalize that? Yeah. And I remember thinking, and it makes me feel like such a failure, like honestly sharing this story. Like, were you not paying attention? Like, where were you, Sarah? But I was like, what a weird thing to say. Yeah.

You know? Because I kind of didn't know if he was messing with me, but I don't think he was. So, yeah, June. The career change that he made. Yeah. I obviously know which path he was going down and to not to leave that broad. Was it his choice to make their career change? From everything I understand it was.

Was he doing so in an attempt to change his operational tempo or cycle? I don't know if that was his drive or if it was really just to pivot to do something different. Yeah. Because sometimes people will make that choice to, it's a, I mean, it's kind of a ladder, right? of a squadron and there's only so many roles available. So they'll kind of ping pong out. So I've seen them do it from a career perspective to hit those mandatory wickets that you have to advance.

And I've seen it because people are like, fuck, I'm burned out. I don't want to leave the command as the umbrella, but I want to do something different. I was curious. And then there are people who are just so far in line for those advancement positions. It's like, hey, man, you got to go. Right. You can go to this job. Those are the ones I've seen that sometimes have a little bit of resentment about it because they didn't really have a hand on the wheel making the choice.

And I, again, from how I understood it was that he was choosing to kind of pivot and go do this. Sometimes things also, though, are not what you think they're going to be. And I think that's what happened with this. Yeah. So, again, just my perspective and some things that he shared, he just didn't feel like he was in the right side. spot. And he, in July, when I went back, I recently was doing a media thing for somebody and they wanted pictures of Chad. And I've been putting them in files on my phone. And it was weird. This one time as I'm scrolling through just a couple of months ago, I started to realize when he stopped

smiling. And he wasn't a big smiler. He was pretty like stoic. I don't know. But yeah, we were Fourth of July with his family and we took a family photo. And if you looked at the photo, he's almost kind of scary. I didn't notice at the time. I mean, he just has this look in his eyes that's like he doesn't want to be there. He's not smiling and he's almost looking through you. A thousand yards, too. Yeah. So he, so yeah, I think it was that summer he changed. And we, you know, I've had people, I've read comments that people have made on other things that I've done. Like, We had, at least from my perspective, a happy marriage, but we definitely had reached a point of, like, stress in terms of the tempo of his job and the tempo of my job. I mean, I worked a lot.

I was gone in traveling all over the world, you know, and so it was stressful and handling two kids. And I think we were just getting to the point where, like, we got a shift. Something's got a shift. Cut of comments are you reading. Oh, just people saying like, oh, if he took his life, is probably marriage troubles because people, you know, they were unhappily married. And it's, you know, it's fine. I got thick skin. I know who I am.

I know the way I love Chad. Of course, I question, right? When you lose someone to suicide, you naturally are going to question, what did you do wrong? Where did you fail? What could you have done better? And we donated his brain to research. So it showed that he had blast. wave injury. I was going to ask you about that. Yeah, and I've, I've shared this before, too,

because I was reading a book and I was a therapist and she said the unconscious doesn't care about facts. And so I can sit here with you and I can talk about his signs and symptoms and I can tell you that we donated his brain and he had blast wave injury and give you a whole host of reasons of why his brain probably wasn't right. But as his spouse, the unconscious doesn't care about facts. So at the end of the day, he didn't pick you. That will never go away. And so that's one of those things that doesn't matter what anybody says to me.

You can talk all day long. I carry that. I have to carry that. What I've come to realize is that the Internet is an IQ test. And the comment section is where you post your... score. Right, especially in spelling. Sure. Grammatical errors, they highlight a lot. Yeah. But the content of people, I mean, it's so easy to sit there and say something trite like that, but it just, don't get me wrong. Sometimes I choose to engage with them. But I try to tell

myself, it's better off, yeah, better off left being what it is, because really when people say stuff like that, they're talking about themselves and the quality of their life. And it actually their comment has nothing to do with you. True. They came across something where you were talking about an incident in your life that they don't fucking know anything about, that they're not going to have or have to work theirself through, but they're in such a place that they feel like they need to comment on it.

It's just a mirror back to me who they are as a person. It doesn't make it any easier to tolerate reading those things, and it sucks that people at anybody would say something like that to you. But I guess what I'm trying to say is fuck those people in short. Yeah. Yeah, what he said. Yeah, exactly. I mean, and I'll be honest, most people are so kind and generous, but it's just interesting

to me that sometimes I share a pretty personal story and people come on and you're like, of all the things we talked about, that's what you have to offer? All right. You do you. People suck sometimes. Karma. And they have the internet occasionally. Yes.

So when you combine those two, you get a shitty comment. There you go. So he had some exposure. I mean, just even in training at that job. Or, you know, a lot of stuff I don't think people pay attention to, like the jumping. Yeah. You know, there's concussive, not a shockway blast, but, I mean, I've had some parachute openings where I was legitimately seeing stars, bloody noses, headache for a couple of days. That shit doesn't go in your medical record.

Nobody's keeping track of that. You'd pop a motron, you go back and you do it four more times. You hope for the best. Right. I tell the packer, hey, man, that sucked. Please don't do that again. Like, I got it. I'll pack this one.

So he obviously had a accumulation of concussive and blast wave injuries. Yeah. So he had interface astroglyle scarring on his brain. So a lot of people hear CTE, right? So we see that NFL soccer, boxers, that physical hit. But interface astralglial scarring, if I'm explaining it correctly, is not necessarily that physical impact. but that concussive wave that happens, whether it's breaching doors, shooting guns, heloes,

freaking even boats, I don't know. I mean, it's just everything. And so, you know, if you just think about the, as I've explained, the brain, you know, it's meant to move around. That's why we have a skull, but it's not meant to have like concussive, you know. It just, yeah. So it does its damage and I did it to him. And the other thing, which I will never be able to prove, but I will keep saying this till I am blue in the face, is that Chad liked to climb mountains.

And it was just, again, one of those bench, you know, I want to do something that not everybody can do. Right. A lot of people do, but not everybody can do. So he got on this hobby alpineus kick. And he climbed Akuncagua in January of 2018. So it's like 23,000 and some change. And I think that he clearly had these brain injuries and blast wave injuries, but I think climbing that mountain exacerbated his symptoms and put him on the fast track of derailment.

Interesting. I don't know anything about the combination of those two things. So even if we just say, okay, so if you hurt your body somewhere, what do you need for it to heal best? is blood and you need blood flow. If your brain is injured and you spend two to three weeks, you know, minimizing that blood flow because you're at such a high elevation. Oxygen-deprived environment, yeah.

Right? And then you come back down. I don't know, I don't know what the recovery is, right? To climatize, right, and get up and regulate yourself, but then also come back down and try to heal that. And so it's my belief that that, how would we ever know now, especially, but how would I know prior either? But I know there was a group of guys that went in Climboconcagua in Chad's honor in January of 2020, I believe. And I said very clearly, hey, this is my concern. They're all, you know, seasoned, season team guys with probably similar injuries. I'm concerned. They said, we're good. We've talked about it, we're good. I said to the doctor that does the research of the brains of many people in our community, there's an opportunity. You could potentially, you know, like, study

these guys, and he just told me no. I think sometimes they say no because they don't want to know the answer. Well, and I understand there's a lot of, like, checks and balances you got to do to get research in place. I get it. But it was just shocking to me that there's somebody who, that's your job, is like a researcher of the brain. That's your mojo, right? And you have this unique opportunity to maybe study people. And there's no pause.

It was just no. Yeah, it'd give you an interesting opportunity to set a baseline or have a before and after. Yeah. I truly believe that there is a reason that they track some things more than others because they either know or don't want to know

the consequence of the residual and repetitive exposure to it. Oh, I think the military does. doesn't want to know a lot of things. Yeah. So, yeah. So that was that. So January, he climbed June.

I think he started to shift. He started putting on a lot of weight. And that was, was that pretty close to when he was shifting occupationally as well going on. Yeah, it was all kind of in that same timeline. Okay. That might have had, you know, maybe a realization that it wasn't necessarily what he wanted

because he probably was also, again, then separated from the people that he had used to been working with and working for. there's a lot, there's a lot of pieces that could have fallen in a place there. There's a lot of unknowns in the story. There's still stuff that I don't share yet, but, but yeah, and then October he was gone. So he was gone on a trip. He was doing a lot of trips, like August and September, because his birthday is the 28th of August,

and I remember he was gone for that birthday in my birthday in September. but the beginning of October is when he really got, I don't want to say weird, but like weird. And he hung all his awards up. So that was just the weirdest thing. So as you know, the guys have plaques and flags and paddles. We call them I love me walls. Right. So we spent a lot of money framing all this stuff that he put in a closet because Chad really didn't like a lot of pomp and circumstance.

understands. He didn't want a lot of attention. Up into that point, he had expressed no desire to hang that stuff up? None of it. We framed it. We spent a lot of money and it sat in our storage. And a typical wife, right, you kind of, what you argue about. Like, why aren't you going to hang those up? And he's like, he would, this is what he would say. He goes, I don't want someone to walk in our house and then they're like, and there's me. And I was like, that's the weirdest thing because we don't necessarily have a lot of people come over to our house. And the people that do come over to our house know what you do. because they do it too.

Yeah. And most of the people's houses we go to have the stuff hanging up. He was pretty adamant against it, but that first week of October, I came home, and he had hung up the stairwell to our second floor, all of it. Team 8 stuff, command stuff, paddles, flags, yeah, his buds hats, like helmets. They're called helmets. Yeah, sorry. I realize as soon as he came out of my mouth, it's not called a hat.

And I am aware. I apologize people. Bud's helmets. And I just remember thinking it was so weird, but at the same time, compromise, right? And I thought, okay. So if any- Because he didn't talk to you about it at all, you just came home and they were there. I just came home from a trip and he had hung all the stuff up. And I thought, okay, so all this stuff is up and it looks really nice. But the only way someone's going to see it is if they walk upstairs to go to our bedroom, which no one's going to really do. But at the same time, I thought, okay, if that's where I want to hang him. And so he hung them up. And I remember he said, I think I'm going to hang a Somalian flag on that wall, which would be if you come in our front door and you look to the right, you would see a

Somalia flag hanging. And I kind of laughed at him because I thought he was kidding. And he said, oh, yeah, I guess that's weird, huh? And I just, I remember it so clearly kneeling on the stairs in front of them and hugging him. And I said, are you okay? He says, yeah, I'm fine. And that's weird. And so, you know, so what the crazy part about it, and this is what haunted me too, is he hung all that. And after he died, you know, for a year and a half, two years, every morning I woke up, I'd walk down that damn stairwell. That sucked. Fuck. Yeah, that's rough.

How long after hanging that stuff did he take his life? It was about two and a half weeks. How was his behavior during that time period? Weird He was quiet He I had to go on a work trip And you know my kids would say

Dad's not really talking He would just he was just laying on the stairwell That last weekend I knew I had to get home You said that he was putting on weight Mm-hmm Did he? Because he was fucking physically active

He was a specimen A dime piece Mm-hmm Is a term that I've heard Go ahead keep going Andy Let me hear it That I've heard recently Yeah. Chiseled features.

Yes. As if it was out of marble. He had great legs. Really good smile. He had great hair. No. He was active. Did he stop working out? Or was he just eating more? No. I think it all came down to brain injury. I think that's... Well, because there's a huge, there can be a huge hormonal response. I'm just curious if that also killed his desire to want to exercise, though, too. Well, and I don't know. I don't know if you've talked about it. There's, you know, there is a

big drop in testosterone for these guys. Yeah. Well, for men in general at a certain age, but the exposure to blast injury. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, I think part of it was just him getting older. I think a lot of it had to do with what was going on with him. And he would joke, you know, I'm getting heavy. You're not going to like me anymore. I just feel like. Well, I only ask because you, you know, and obviously, of course, in hindsight now, you can put a lot of the pieces together. and I'm just curious as to you how much synchronicity there is at the time period of that happening. Yeah. So he was just, did you hit laying on the stairs?

Yeah. Because that's a really uncomfortable place to lay. I know. So we had like, you know, the stairs go up and then they turned. Yeah. There's a little mini platform and, uh. Oh, like a little landing? Yeah.

And my daughter called me when I was working a seminar and said, Dad's just laying on the stairs, staring at the ceiling and he won't move. And, uh. Fuck. I remember, I was the flowmaster at the seminar, so I was responsible for running the course, you know, and you have a team of people under you. I was four hours away, and I was in the office, and I was crying, and one of the staff members came in. I said, this is bad. This is really bad. Something's wrong with Chad. I don't know what it is, but something's really wrong. and they basically said, we'll take your lecture, you know, we'll do whatever.

And I said, no, you know, I had it, it was my job. It was my responsibility. I'll do it. So I went out and I gave my lectures. And obviously, I wish I would have just made a phone call and left. I think my job would have understood. I mean, at the end of the day, I'm teaching some people to air squat, you know. Yeah, but you also, I mean, you.

You're looking at that through the lens of what happened and you know what happened, not necessarily through the lens of somebody you've known for 27 years. Yeah, they're going through a rough patch. But to forecast and forward to think about what did happening as actually what was going to happen, that's a huge leap. Yeah. So, yeah, it was a very short window. He hung his stuff. He just went downhill. It happens quickly.

And I say this because of the other losses like this we've had in our community, they echo similar sentiments, you know. Yeah. Say it was like a month. Drastic personality changes. All of a sudden it was just, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's not a good sign for sure. Mm-mm. Have you ever heard of a drastic personality change in a positive direction?

No. Did it happen to you? Oh, no. Absolutely not. You and I both know the answer to that question. I'm just kidding. No, I'm thinking about it, though. where everyone someone just like

or it's like oh that guy's no longer a piece of shit or an asshole like fucking great job no it's always the other way I wonder why it has to have a negative impact why I can't I don't know rewire you to find happiness in a different direction maybe for the people who it goes positive we just don't notice it because

positive is good right so you're just like you're rolling with it you're more likely to notice if it was drastic I think we would notice somebody who was normally reserved and quiet and withdrawn and all of a sudden they're like the bubbly center of attention. I would notice that. Yeah.

Yeah, that's true. And I'm not saying it's a meaningful question. It kind of hit me as you were talking about those personality changes. I wonder if it's even possible for it to have somehow a positive impact. Yeah, I don't know. So you obviously made it home in time? I did make it home. He called me on the way home and I had a really bad headache.

And I just remember saying, I love you. I love you so much. And I said, I love you too. And I said, but I'm trying to rush to get home. I'll just talk to you when I get there because I got a headache. Cool. And I remember they were paving our streets. So I had to park a couple streets away.

And I like ran down the sidewalk with my suitcase. I just wanted to be inside where he was and got in there. And he was rummaging under the bed, which now I wonder what he was rummaging. with and yeah I just he I hugged him and um this was Sunday night the 28th of October and I kissed him and then he he he was going to go get in the shower I was like I'm going to get in the shower come talk to me and he kind of collapsed on the bed like just so heavy and I kind of went over and picked him up and said come on come talk to me because that's what we would do you know someone would be in the I were just sitting there and talk to them or whatever.

And he just wasn't right. And I kept saying, you got to talk to me. You got to tell me what you're thinking. I don't know what you're thinking in there. Were you telling him that you were worried about him? I wasn't because I guess I thought that would be obvious, right? At least the way I saw our partnership, which is one of those mind fucks, if I can say that, of where you go now, having been in this position.

Like, you start to question everything. Yeah, you're looking in the rear of your mirror. Like, looking, and it's like, I just thought I was always, he was my best friend. I mean, like, he was everything to me. There was nothing I didn't tell him, nothing. So I just assumed that it was reciprocated. And I learned that that's probably not the case, right? And so I didn't say I was worried, but at least then, I just,

just thought trying to get him to talk and his eyes were just glazed over and I don't know if he'd slept. That's something I questioned. Sleep is so huge, especially for these guys who might be struggling and I'm just not sure he was sleeping and I got out of the shower. I remember getting in bed and I just tried to get him to lay down next to me because I just kept thinking if I could just get him to lay next to me, then it'll be okay because we'll just be right here. And I remember I was holding his hand and he was talking, but he wasn't really making sense. Like he wasn't really making words. It was...

Had you ever seen him like that before? No. And to this day, I'm going to do this interview without crying. Okay. Because you're Andy Stump. I'm going to tell you right now. I look for tissue. You looked for tissue?

They don't exist. So what I was able to find. Calisbeau was fresh out. I was able to find hand towels, which will be like wiping your face with an 80 grit. It's great. Yeah. Cool. I was telling Michael before we started out.

And you get a case of water and some tissues in case interviews or conversations ever go this way. It's like when I got to interview these girls. No, I fell asleep. And so it's just another failure I carry, right? Like he was on my watch. at that point is really what it was. And I fell asleep. You can reframe that.

I could. I could, but not yet. And so I woke up, I don't know what time, and he was standing up, he was dressed. He had on a white undershirt and jeans, and he was looking out the window. And I'm like, what are you doing? And he had his hands crossed like this. And he said, I don't know. And I said, come back to bed.

You know, come back to bed. and I woke up in the morning and he was gone. Did you just assume he had gone to work? Yes, which I know is probably hard for people to understand, but he had to go away to work. He had to go up north a couple hours that day. And so I just, I woke up and I was kind of frantic and I went downstairs and I looked and I thought,

well, maybe he went for a walk. Maybe he went for a run. Maybe he's working out, like looked all the places, couldn't find him. Tried texting him. He wouldn't answer his text. It's hard. And so he had to take a rental car to where he was going.

And the weird thing is that he never left and didn't kiss me goodbye. And he knew that I would get so fired up about it that he liked to play this joke on me a lot where I would be upstairs, right? And he would say, okay, I'm leaving for work. And he would slam a door just so I would come up. running down the stairs. Yeah, to give him the business and yell at him on his way to the car. And he would hide from me and see me get and then he'd come around the corner, right? Like, it was like our thing.

Like, he just, he never left and didn't kiss me goodbye. And that includes, like, picking me up out of bed while I'm asleep. So he didn't kiss me goodbye. But then also it was like things started getting really weird. Like, he had really nice blue eyes too. But he always wore sunglasses. His eyes were super sensitive to the light. His sunglasses were there.

Well, it's part of the uniform. Right. Also. Yeah. His toothbrush. was there. His medicine, like, none of it made sense. So I got in my car and I started driving around the neighborhood and then I thought, where the hell am I going to drive? Like, I wouldn't even know where to start the search. So I eventually, I called his dad, told his dad I was concerned,

but I eventually called work. And I think this is almost sad to admit, is that I couldn't find them for two and a half, three hours trying to text him. And it took me that long to be able to be okay of like, I wouldn't say it was like breaking his trust, but it's just something you don't do. We don't call work. You don't call work. And I thought, I got to call work because I don't know what to do. And I called and expressed my concern. I talked to a psych there. who I don't have anything nice to say about. And I was basically told that due to the privacy of his job, it would be likely that he wouldn't be answering his cell phone.

Yeah, fuck that person too. Yeah. It's the one big miss, in my opinion, looking back, not to derail your story in any way, but I think back now about what they ask of people in that community, the best thing that they can do to weaponize the people who, go forward is to make sure that everything humanly possible is done for those that are not going forward. And that's the mesh of the family and professional life and having the ability for a spouse

that is concerned to fucking reach out to somebody who actually can get them answers and actually cares. Yeah. It's really easy to focus on just the warfighter. But I can tell you, from my own experience, you have thoughts and concerns and doubts in the back of your mind. If they can figure out a way, especially at that command. I'm not saying it needs to be fucking crazy and need to be going to work together, but to cohesively figure out a way to combine the two. And so there is no stigma associated with calling work. Because I know exactly where your headspace was. Like, fuck, if I call and I say what I want to say, and that's not the case, what's going to happen, Chad? Exactly. Like, you don't want to waive the flag. And so that was.

a big deal. And so I did like a good little soldier wife. I was like, okay, weird, but I know he's got this new job thing he's doing and there's different moving parts here. And I just tried to respect that. But in my gut, I was like, something's not right. And so that was Monday. And then Tuesday, he was supposed to come back on Tuesday and I went for a run and I did a workout in the garage and then I got showered and I like curled my hair and I just wanted to look nice for when he got home

and at 5 o'clock I got a call from the command saying that he didn't report to muster so we're heightening the alert that command is only good at one thing and it's nothing that happens back stateside they literally shave away They, you take, I would describe being a seal as a multi-tool. I'm sure you heard the phrase jack-of-all trade, master of none.

That command doesn't have to do everything. So they start shaving, if you think of like a Swiss Army knife, they like start taking the screws out and they'm like, we don't need the tweezer, put that over here. We don't need the Phillips head screwdriver. So they start shaving it away until you're fucking really good at one thing. And that whole command is based around that. Yeah.

And I don't think that's necessarily, a problem at just that command. I think it's a problem with the military in general. They're really good at being front site focused. I'm sure another term that you've heard many times. But what's happening behind the sites? Yeah. I don't know if they're, I don't know if they're equipped for it. Well, I mean, I keep falling back on, you know, they're reactive and not proactive. Being reactive has worked up to this point in terms of fighting the foreign threats. Yeah. But And I've said this in speeches before, too. I mean, they ultimately kind of build these machines and the machines work for what they need them to do.

But at some point, the machine has to switch roles. And how do you safeguard that? It's tough. It's tough. I don't know if there is a templated answer that works either because, and I've had this conversation with so many people when it comes to the capacity to deal with stress. I think that everybody. I've talked about this before, too, yeah. Everybody comes out of the, and I use a glass analogy.

Everybody has a baseline, like, maybe you're a six-ounce person. Maybe you're a 64-ounce redneck guzzler. You can only hold so much, and the shit will spill out. I think through the course of the training, there is probably the chance to expand the volume that you can hold. But there also is, and that's why I think, like, critical thinking and problem solving is a lot of what they're screening for, because there's ways that you can put a little hole in the bottom and figure out ways to keep it from spilling out. But what gets weird is you could have six people and six cups and experience the same thing. And one person gets a drop.

One person gets an ounce. One person gets two gallons. And so I don't know how you have a template. And I've had a lot of conversations to include this last week where I was out talking to a guy who just retired after 23 years. And I asked him the same question I asked almost every team guy that I'd run in. to now is do you think they should limit combat exposure? And his answer was unequivocally yes, but it would have been impossible to try to get me to stop. That's why it has to come from the headsheds down. So, you know, and I've said before like a mouse on a wheel, and I don't mean

anything disrespectful, but guys are going to go and go and go. They are groomed to be teammates, right? They don't want to let the guy down next to them. And again, that's fill in all those blanks. back into the initial pipeline and what we're screening for and the ethos of the organization. It's everything you want. But, and it is. It's what, what's going to affect one guy after two deployments might not affect another guy until after six deployments? How do you find that number? I don't really know. I know, you know, it is kind of a burn point and I've spoken with other wives, you know, that there's guys that, you know, might have done two deployments and they're out and they've got 100 percent medically disabled. And for like PTSD. And I'm like, you know, there's guys that's

not saying that they didn't experience hardship, but it's like I don't even get some of the benefits they get as a widow with a husband who died by suicide, you know, who clearly, clearly was like should have been medically disabled, right? And so it just gets tricky. Well, it makes it worse because there are people out there truly gaming the system too. Yes. And so if we just take it from the top and have leadership pick a number, I don't know, three, four, I don't know. Well, smarter people than you and I can figure that shit out. Right.

And just be like, you're good, you're done. It would take a lot of the pressure off of the operators. And so you wouldn't get this kind of muddled, leaving the brotherhood, all that kind of stuff and feeling like a quitter. You don't also have to be done, you know, and the final sense of the word. Right. Like, hey. Take a break. You know what?

You can actually still what? You can still be a part of the squadron, but you're going to go and you're going to fill an operational role. You can even deploy with the guys, but you're staying in the fucking talk. We're going to take your knowledge. You're going to train. You'll be a liaison. There's ways to finesse that. So it's not this guillotine that they feel coming over the top of their neck. Yeah. Yeah. And there also could be a way to deviate from, let's say, three, as a number. Put a guy through, first off, get a baseline at the very beginning of their career. That'd be a great step too, because a lot of this, like I went to NICO at the end, they're, they can,

And they're like, hey, here's where you are now. We don't have a fucking clue where you are when you got the military. So having a baseline at the beginning would be great because you could objectively screen guys that way. And maybe there is a process that if somebody is really tolerating it well, they are allowed to continue to do more. It doesn't have to be like this, you know, catastrophic Grand Canyon that you're trying to make a hurdle across. It could be everything in between. And they're starting that, right? So the kids that are in buds now, cool.

like they're going to benefit in 20 years. Yeah. But all the people that... But they miss the 20 years of kinetic warfare. Right. It's fucking people up to a level that nobody understands. Right. Reactive, not proactive.

And part of it is like, we didn't know we didn't know, right? So to some degree, you can't blame everybody. But now you've got all these men and women and it's like, okay, well, what now? You know? And... The community was trying to evolve at the speed of war, which is galactically fast. Yeah. And the first thing that they're not going to focus on,

is direct impact on the warfighter. Yeah. Which like it ties me back into what I said earlier, looking back at it now, figuring out a way to cohesively support the family unit and dynamic is actually probably the best way to weaponize these people. And I mean that in their ability to get to where they need to be, to do their job against people they need to do it against. Yeah.

Easy to fucking sit here and say, in front of, you know, table in Montana, I'm glad that I'm not the person tasked with doing this, but I think they can do a better job of it. 100%. So you get a call. They're elevating the level. Yeah, he didn't report to muster, so they're elevating the alert. And I had just driven my son to the other side of our neighborhood to go with a friend to a football game. So I had just driven my car and parked it in the front of my house. We had started renovation on our house that day, which had been scheduled and planned. And my general contractor came out the front door. The house is kind of weird. There's an alley where my driveway sits behind it. He came out my front door and said, Miss Sarah, there's two cops at your back door. And I'm pretty sure I hung up on that guy. And I called my friend Courtney and her neighborhood backs up to mine.

And I said, I need you to come to my house. I need you to come right away. And I didn't even know what it was. I just, I'm not the type of person who has cops show up in my house. Yeah. Most people aren't. A little bit like. And I basically went through my front door to my back door.

And they were in my garage. and they said, hey, ma'am, you know, we're wondering if we, if you've seen your husband. And I said, no, I can't find them. And my daughter's window looks out to the driveway. So I think it's like mom instinct, you know, I said, we need to move farther away because my daughter, she can probably hear you or see you. Not thinking, really, that even when we move in the street, she now has a better visual. But anyway, they just said, when was the last time you saw him? I don't even really remember.

It was kind of a blur. And this cop, and this is like, it's like trauma on top of trauma. And I feel silly saying the word trauma. I feel like that sounds very dramatic, but it's such a traumatic loss. But then so many other things that followed were just added trauma. So I go outside and this cop, this reaches in his car and is like digging around for something. and he pulls his head out and said, I'm sorry, ma'am, your husband took his life. You know, and I mean, I was just, I remember screaming.

I mean, a blood-curdling scream. And I remember Courtney must have pulled up. And she basically grabbed me from behind, like a bear hug and just took me to the ground. I mean, I was fighting and screaming. and, you know, I don't get to change the story, but I didn't deserve to be told that way. I don't think there's a right way to necessarily be told, but that certainly seems less than professional. Right. So, yeah, I mean, my neighbors came out because obviously they heard me screaming.

Someone sat me in a chair in the middle of the road. and then I don't I don't really remember somehow I got back in my house and yeah someone went and got my son brought my son home and I remember him coming in the door

and he started to cry and he said I love you mom you're just the best mom you're the best mom that's all I kept saying how old were your kids my son was 14 and my daughter was 17 yeah and then you know because there's been a lot of deaths your house fills up with people and it's like shit

just happens food shows up like I don't know I went and slept in Chad's closet for like days long time so I just remember going in his closet and laying down and um my friends Courtney and Kristen must have laid a blanket down on the other side of the door I didn't know they were there but they just listen to me cry. Were you able to tell your kids or were they notified by other people? Notified by other people. Fuck. So the whole thing is just pretty tragic, really.

Yeah. Yeah. So which is also like crazy because knowing Chad and just knowing the way that he was, I'm like, how did he? I mean, did he just not think about this? Did he think about it? Did he have an idea of like how this would play out? Do you not do that?

How could he have not known how this would derail our lives? And, yeah, it's just a constant. So I have spent a good amount of time thinking about suicide. Not from the perspective of considering whether or not it's something that I want to do, but trying to understand how somebody can arrive there. There was a guy that I, and I'll have to speak about this super broadly because I don't know if they released a lot of the details. A guy in San Diego, not too long ago, killed himself in a manner that, I'll tell you offline what happened. but it was in a manner that could, there's no way that it couldn't impact the child that was in the car.

I'm aware, yeah. Okay. So how, he was smart. He was smart as fuck. So how do you get to a place where you make a decision where you're smart enough to know that that's the impact that it's going to have? And the only thing that I can land on and having a bunch of conversations with people, And I'm sure you've talked about this with a bunch of people, too, is that they're no longer thinking logically. And that I don't know if they have changed as a person or their brain has changed the way that they think.

But I think they lose the ability to reason in those terms of what this is going to be in the future and the impact that this is going to have. because Chad was a critical thinker. He was an objective thinker. There's no way that he would want to impact your life or your son's life or your daughter's life in that way. So I think the only way that it can happen is if it literally changes the thought process so much that somehow they're no longer thinking about that.

It's the only way that I can wrap my head around it. I mean, I think that makes sense from your perspective, like if I were to say logically speaking, yeah, that makes sense. But like as the person who's emotionally attached to it and has the letter he wrote me, it's hard to not doubt, you know? Like, why would he not, he never gave me a chance to help him. That's like, that is like betrayal. Unless your brain has you convinced that you're at.

in a place where there's nothing that anybody can do to help. Right. And so it's like this, for me, it's like this constant ping pong. Like I always feel that, but then I'm like, okay, he clearly wasn't thinking right. But why are waiting? It's just. And for clarity, anybody listening, like, this is me just talking in real time, the things that I've thought about. I'm not an expert in this shit by any stretch. I just know far too many people that have made that choice.

And I don't fucking understand why. Yeah. It hasn't touched my life, obviously, to the severity and closest in degree that it has touched yours. but enough where I'm like in my idle time, I'm like, what the fuck? Like how do you get to that place? Yeah. Yeah. So.

How was the command's response after that? No comment. Which is a comment enough in and of itself. I mean, the community has been incredibly supportive to me for the most part. Yeah. The Navy SEAL Foundation has stepped up and provided tons of support to myself and my family, as well as other organizations. We are incredibly fortunate to be part of a community that has support structure like that in place. Do I think the actual, like, uniform wearing leaders at work handle it well?

No. No. And to some point I give them a little bit of grace because, you know, we handle enemy deaths. We kind of get that, right? That's our. And I think, I think this is just complicated. It's a complicated subject. And that's why I talk so much about it because I want to destigmatize it. Like, just let's talk about it. This is, you know, you're not offending me by talking about my husband who died by suicide because I live it and carry it every damn day. And, you know, there's tons of plaques and walls and memorials for men. And I keep saying men because we're talking about the SEAL community, but I always want to address that especially mental health within veterans can affect our women too. And they're equally valid. And there's a bunch of front line roles that a lot of people don't know about that are completely staffed by and so and so I I default to saying men because that's just the world that I'm used to with these guys. But I lost my trade of thought. De-stigmatizing.

Getting old. Oh, yeah, there's plenty of, you know, pictures and plaques and murals and stuff and tributes. And I've shared the story with friends and a couple of. of them. If they listen, this will make them smile in a nice way they were there. But there is a well-known bar in the San Diego area where all the pictures hang of... Make a great hamburger. They do. They've got cold Coors Light, just like Chad liked. And I wanted Chad's picture up there. And the lady said, the owner said, oh, where did he die? And I said, oh, he died here. She says, huh? He said he died at home. Huh?

She said, how did he die? I said he took his life. She repeats it. He took his life as if she didn't understand or I stuttered. I said, yeah, he died by suicide. And she said, oh, suicide. I don't think we can do that. Because you see, in her hand, panned the ball.

I'll never forget this as long as I live. She says, all of these, they're proud. I thought my girlfriend was going to rip her face off, like Sarah Connor. like terminate her style. Yeah, fuck that cunt. Yeah, I mean, she lit my girlfriend. She will go to bat for me. And it was interesting.

I think I had experienced a handful of interactions like that up to that point. And I've, again, I've been met with a lot of grace and kindness. But there has been some really shitty circumstances that have happened. And I think I was almost numb at that point. And I just kind of chalked it up to like, there's another one, you know? I almost jumped on the bar because there were two groups of team guys since we can spot them. There was a group over here. There was a group over here.

And I wanted to be the crazy lady that hopped on the bar and said, hey, team guys, situation. You know, we got a guy. He did this many years of service. He died by suicide. You cool if we hang his picture up. Yeah. Just to get a consensus. But I didn't want to be that crazy girl in a bar.

So I walked out. You know, it's crazy, though, that woman, that bar, like its reputation is so tied to the seal community. And to say to wave your hand like that and say that these people are all proud is such a gross, fucking disgusting misunderstanding of what war actually is and what it can do to people. Like, fuck that. Fuck that place. I will never set foot in that place again. Well, and so a friend of mine was kind of the catalyst that helped to try to get his picture up. And I appreciate his help.

And I did the same thing with work. They wouldn't hang his picture up. His picture's up in his squadron room, but not on this other wall. And I tried to explain to leadership that the reason I wanted his picture up is because in five years or ten years from now, the guys working at the command won't know Chad Wilkinson. It'll be a whole new group of guys. but I wanted them to walk by his face and just realize that that could be them, right? Remember kind of you owe it to yourself to do check-ins and to like make sure you're okay. It wasn't like for Chad.

It was really for the future of the men that would go through. Those pictures should be up everywhere. You know, they really do a good job of memorializing people who are killed in action like that. There's another thing I try to talk about, you know, there's a difference between the price and the cost. The price of being a team guy is you're going to miss a lot of vacation, you're not vacations, holidays, important family dates, time away. You're going to be on training trips. It's just an immense amount of time away, dedicated something else. The cost, your body's probably going to be destroyed afterwards.

There's nothing about that in the small print up front. and when you touch war it fucking touches you back and I don't understand and the whole family it touches everybody exactly yeah the whole family pays a price yeah the whole family pays a price and seeing those people's faces so people can see and feel the cost because the cost somehow is forgotten like this is what it takes to be a team guy this is the price okay but what about when you're 45 and you finally got out and you geographically isolate yourself And you probably have some level of a alcohol problem. Not that the SEAL community would ever push drinking by any stretch or required at every social event.

It's just what I've heard. I didn't experience that personally. That shit can become really, really problematic. And then you're separated from your support group. You're separated from your tribe. You have a job. Maybe you haven't even found another job. So you feel less of a purpose.

That shit's all wrapped into the cost, but completely invisible and forgotten. Their faces should be up. And I can think of corridors in military installations where it's just picture after picture, citation of how they were killed, what they did, Valeris, this. I think it would have an impact if on the other side of the fucking wall it had the faces of those who found themselves in that position and made that decision. For whatever reason they chose to make it. Because like I said, I don't understand why. And I think it would be impactful. Yeah.

I think by not doing that, I think it's a huge disservice to those. like you said, in 5, 10, 15, however fucking long the military survives, those names will be forgotten. But they name ships after people who do heroic and, you know, valorous things. What about the people who do heroic and valorous things? And at the end of the day, it breaks them. Yeah. That was my speech last Memorial Day, pretty much. Yeah.

So, how are your kids doing? My kids are doing, I think, the best they can. So being 14 and 17, that's a pretty pivotal time in your life for any kid. And then coupled with a loss like this, we all have kind, as we should, we all carry it differently. We all express this loss differently. I think we all try to really, the third. of us honor and respect that with each other how we choose to walk it my i think he would be incredibly proud of them for the people that they are and the paths that they're on and um they've i think

they've done and are doing the best they can with what they've got did he leave anything for them he wrote them a letter yeah yeah so It's hard, and I've talked about this before too, but you have a girl and a boy, and everyone says that my daughter looks just like me, which she hates. She gets really pissed about. And I think if you looked at us, you would think that, but really she looks a lot like Chad. She's got Chad's face the way her face is shaped. She has his eyes 100%, but she acts just like me. And then when I was pregnant with our son, I used to say, I want a little boy and I want him to look just like you.

And he looks like Chad. He might look more like me. he acts just like Chad, which I love. But it's so hard as a single parent, right, of like a solo parent. There's no, there's no relief. He's not coming back. And I can help guide Kinsley in like becoming a woman and how a woman should act and carry themselves and what they accept and what they won't accept.

And I think I'm a pretty rad mom. I mean, I ride my skateboard every day. we ride dirt bikes, I can throw a football, I can shoot a soccer ball, like all that kind of stuff. But I'm not a dude and I don't, I just even remember coming home from work or whatever and Chad would be out playing with him and like set various obstacle courses off the playground and how to do like a drop, like if he called it a spider drop, how to drop from really high up and not break a bone and how to roll out of it and this is the stuff he would do. And everyone says your same-sex parent is your most influential parent. That's what I've read. And that stuck with me hard because, and for sure, Kinsley misses out on the influence of her dad, 100%. But to not have that male figure around, it's a...

It's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot of pressure because I want him to still have... have instilled in him some of the traits and the values of who Chad was as a man because I thought he was really wonderful. He will. Yeah. I say that because I see far too much of my children or of myself and my children, especially

the parts that I've tried really hard not to pass on. Yeah. They fucking came out of the box with it. Yeah. A little body mouse, a little sassy from time to type those two. Headstrong, perhaps. Payback, man. payback times three.

All the things that I would never want to pass on. Like we could skip those traits. Yeah, they got those for sure. He'll have those traits. Yeah. How old does he know? He's 18. Yeah.

What's he looking at doing for his future? So he's going to college and he wants to study construction management and get into building. So his uncles, Chad's brother and his sister's husband, my brother and both brother-in-laws, they're in the building. They build homes. And that's kind of the direction Hudson wants to go. How about your daughter? She's a photographer.

She does pretty well. She's a little bit unsure. So she's gone to school for a little bit. She's currently in trade school. She's like, what's 21 though, right? 21. Guess who else was unsure at 21? Everybody.

Yeah. Yeah. And she's funny because she thinks she has to have her whole life mapped out. And I'm like, no, absolutely not. That's the first honor. Is that the worst question for kids? You're eight. Oh, what do you want to do forever in your life? Yeah.

I don't know. Eat fucking clay. Yeah. Well, and Hudson, too. I mean, people would say we were at an event and this was probably the fourth or fifth time this happened. This guy's like, so you want to be a seal? And Hudson's like, ah, he always will be kind and polite, you know. And I said, no, I don't think he wants to be one. He goes, yeah, he does.

Just wait. And it made me mad because I thought, one. This is an event after his dad took his life? Yeah. Oh, that guy can fuck himself. Yeah. And we've had a lot of. Right off into the sunset with that guy.

Jesus. There's been a handful of guys that have asked that. Maybe they're just making small talk. This guy didn't know. I didn't know him at all. And I said, oh, I don't think I want to do that. And he says, yeah, I will. Just wait. And I thought, well, one, I think I know my son pretty well. But I pulled Hudson aside after that. And I said, hey, HUD, when people ask you that question, it is completely okay to say no. It's okay to say yes if that's what you want to do. But it's also okay to say no if that's not what you want to do. Because you are your own person. You get to decide. And he said, okay. You know, I think he's just trying to be respectful because that's how we've raised him to be. It's such an awkward position to put him in, though. It is.

It's like... I mean, I don't know. I really do think that, again, I don't necessarily believe in statistics, but in this case, almost nobody is going to actually touch what you had to live through. So they probably don't even realize

how messed up it is a comment like that and how awkward it is to put a young man in that position. Having said that, also fuck right off to that guy. So it probably wasn't intentional. I don't think it was. But fucking think before you open your mouth. Yeah. Well, yeah.

Yeah. It would be like knowing that somebody's parent drown. Like, hey, can't wait to try out for the swim team, huh? I'd be like, fuck you, man. Yeah. And I, there are plenty of kids and all. our community that have gone and are currently in the process of going and want to go to buds. And who knows, Hudson might change his mind.

I just want my kids to have, like, free will to choose that. And I, people say, people have asked me, what would you think if you wanted to be a seal? And I'd say, I think if he came to me and said that is absolutely what he wants to do and he is passionate about going and, like, getting that goal, I will support him. because that's my job as a mom, right? Is to just support him and encourage him in the direction he wants to go. But I'm also not mad about him just being away of college and being a college kid right now. Yeah.

It's great. Yeah, I don't like the pressure put on young people to have all their life figured out. Yeah. It's abnormal. So I knew I wanted to be a seal since I was like 11 also. Yeah. That's abnormal. Here's what makes it seem like it's normal.

We were surrounded by fuckers who felt the same way. Because everybody's the left around like, oh yeah, totally. It's the one thing I ever wanted to do. So you end up thinking, oh, that's just the way everybody is. No, we're weird. Yeah. We're super weird. Like I said, it's a community of people that attracts unique, but also kind of, like,

it's not normal to know at 11, like, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. Because the rest of your life at that point is like two days. Yeah. As far as you can think and process. Yeah. I just, they're figuring themselves out, which is good. And now they're both out of our area, which is good. I mean, I have my house back home, and that's kind of my home base.

But, I mean, my daughter left as soon as she could. She graduated college. We drove cross-country. She was gone. And I've had people say, how did you let her go so far away? And Kinsley is independent. She's a free bird. She's a damn firecracker.

That girl's not going to take shit from anybody. Super weird. I wonder where she got that from. I know. I love that about her. And it's been the great. thing for her to be out there. And it's definitely had hardship at times, but she knows I'll always be here and she knows that she's better being out in San Diego than Virginia Beach. And I'm excited for

HUD because he's now, he loves Virginia Beach. He has friends and that's really almost the homies. We moved back there when he was like three or something. But I'm excited for him to now be out of town in a new town where no one knows his story. He can share what he wants about it. he can kind of be anybody he wants to be and he's on this path of like figuring himself out you can kind of drift back into being the gray man as opposed to somebody who's a little bit more out front or has a story associated with him that he may not want right yeah so I want them to go do their thing go fly what do you want for yourself oh come on you're going to get all like deep on me that's not deep we just talked about what your kids are doing what do you want for yourself

See, I want, you know, I was thinking about this today because I told you my birthday is Thursday. I'll be 45. I don't think women are supposed to say how old they are. I don't care. So you turn 30 on Thursday. Yeah, turn 30. And I was like, wow, what does that mean? And I just want to be a feel free, I think, that feeling of free.

Like I've told you I've got this camper van and I'm driving around the country. I too can land at a campsite and be anybody I want to be. Not saying I'm lying or making up stories, but. You can just be Sarah. Just a random, right? And I want that. And I want more than anything, I want my kids to be happy. I want them to find a path that like fills them up and pushes them forward.

and the same thing for me. And I ultimately want to find love. I do. I want someone, especially in this position where you do, you have a little bit of abandonment issues. But I think at the end of the day, when all of our days are done, all we want is to love and to be loved.

And as cheesy as that sounds, that's what I've found to be true. That's what I want for myself. I think that's what Chad would want for you as well. I have his story of coming back in after being out. One of the first funerals I went to was a very good friend of my name, Jason Lewis, who had gotten out. And it's funny when you mentioned the suit and tie. Because I remember his wife Donna talking about, you know, he had gotten out.

And he ended up starting, like, I think, a landscaping business. But he went and got fitted for some nice. high-end suits and in the end decided he wanted to come back in and i never really had the chance to talk with them about what it was about that some guys i do believe feel like they're missing out on something or maybe it's the combination of that and less fulfillment on the outside so they want to come back and in the end he was killed in Iraq um from a fucking syrian explosive penetrating charge He was sitting in the back of a Humvee from my understanding of it. But broadly, the last time I saw Donna, she was happy.

I think she's happy. Yeah. And I knew I was very close to Jason when we were really young. Like, well, I was going to say when we were idiots, but as the fact that I'm an adult male, or just a male in general, I'm not sure we outgrow that phase, so I'll leave that one. But I knew him well enough, and I knew how he felt about her well enough, that he would want her to be happy. I can't think that Chad would want anything else for you, too. I mean, he wrote that in his letter.

So it's just complicated, but... It's anything other than easy, for sure. And I'm not... you know, I'm not necessarily in a rush or anything. I just, I just, I was thinking about this earlier today. I wouldn't say that I deserve it, right? But when Chad and I used to say, I used to say, do you think there's like one soulmate or do you think there's a lot of people

in the world you could be with? And he would say, I think there's probably a lot of people in the world you could be with. I'd be like, no, nope, just one. We met each other. It's like we were just meant to be. That's a slightly myopic approach to eight plus billion people in the face of planet Earth. And he's like, you know, there are billions of people, Sarah. You could have easily found, you know, someone else.

And so it was just this running joke, obviously, the girl's perspective of like soulmates. But obviously now the position that I'm in that I think I feel very fortunate to have had Chad in my life. I mean, I still love him. I will love him until the day I died. who he taught me and helped me to be as a human, I find incredibly valuable. And I try to carry that forward and put a lot of honor in that. But I also know that I'm a really good teammate. I'm loyal.

I'm faithful. And I'm incredibly loving and giving. And so why can you not think that you couldn't have the opportunity to to find that to someone to give to and also get that back in return. With that being said, I don't settle for anything. You shouldn't. Right? And so...

But you're more than what has happened in your past, too. I have seen some people who get... Fuck, what's the way to talk about this without getting just horrendous backlash? That's probably not possible for you. Somebody's going to have a comment. Well, it's directly tied into the seal community. Those old keyboard bullies. To people who are left behind who somehow, it seems, actually doesn't seem.

I know for some people, they become defined by the community of being a widow. And they can't separate themselves from that anymore. Yeah. And it's super toxic. And I think they're the vast, vast minority, I'm sorry, the vast minority. But I've seen it in person. And I think it's super dangerous because you'll never be able to continue. to move forward if you're always stuck being defined by what happened in the past.

It's definitely a hard line to walk, and I can't speak for anybody else, but, you know, these are some of my closest, dearest friends now, and we've talked about this. And we've all, we all walk this a little bit differently and carried a little bit differently, but we all try to honor how everyone chooses that, some very different than others. But I think, I It's just like no one can really talk about buds unless you've been through it. And so nobody can really understand what you have to juggle when you are a widow in a community like this. And it's hard to figure out your own identity and honoring your husband who's passed and still keeping them alive for your children while trying to move your life forward. it's it's hard it's not easy and everybody does it different and I just I just try to do the best

I can to be loving and give them grace and learn a lot from them you know as terrible as that is to say there's I have so much respect for them because of what their different stories and Yeah, and the circumstances are obviously oftentimes vastly different. I've never made an issue of it. But I also think it's important to admit that it's fucking real. Yeah. Yeah, it's tough. It is tough.

Yeah, I think the path that you're on is a super difficult one. But I also think there are awesome people out there. And if you settle for some fuckboy, I will literally find. you and beat the living shit out of him. I will bitch slap that fuck boy left right and center, Sarah. I'm not going to let that shit happen. When this ends, when you hit end on this recording, I'm going to tell you who my biggest crush is.

You might know him. Don't take guesses right now. All right. So this show's over because I got. All right. Okay. I've never been known as a matchmaker. So I don't even fucking know how that works.

I don't think it never would. work, but I do, I do, I do have a crush. That's a good thing. Yeah. I think that's a good thing. You, you deserve to be as happy as anybody else. Thanks. And I think you can be even living through what you have just because of who you are. And I think because of the relationship that you had with Chad, I just, again, I went through my own journey of thoughts about aloneness. Yeah. Through obviously different circumstances. But fuck, that's a tough mirror to look into and be like, okay, So just me and you, buddy, in the mirror. And you're pretty fucking dumb.

So we're going to have a long one. And I, you know, I, I try, I'm trying to talk about my kids too much. Sometimes they don't like it. But, um, I can tell that they, I think they worry about me a little bit. How could they not? Just like. How could they not, Sarah? I think Hudson, he didn't ever say it.

Who knows? But I think there was a part of them was like, if I go away to college, like, you're going be all alone. I'm like, hey, it's okay. I'm the adult. I'm the parent. It's okay. Yeah. So I don't know. We'll see. TBD. Well, he'll be protective of you for the rest of his life. And he probably did have those thoughts and feelings. And you know, another realization I've come to as my kids gotten older, it's okay to not have all the answers. I don't ever want my kids. I have admitted false so many times with my kids or had conversations like, I don't fucking know. There's no rule book for this. And what I generally tell me because I'm like, listen, the difference between you and me is I have some laps around the sun and I've seen some stuff and done some stuff and I can tell you about that.

But that doesn't mean I have the answers to everything that you might encounter. I think that's the best way to parent, right, is just to be more transparent. Yeah. But I'm pretty real with my kids. I don't know if you have another choice given what they've been through. I think the fairy tale sunglasses have been kind of ripped off. Yeah. So actually though

Being more real with them Probably prepare them for life better Hopefully They're so awesome They really they are awesome humans So Yeah I'm lucky

What kind of public speaking Have you been doing And obviously you're going to be an author You already said you're going to write a book So I know take that out But I do I do want to write a book Michael don't take that out

I've been told I have a lot to say I'm not shy And then I'm bold and I know when I was told that they weren't compliments but I took them as compliments that's the choice you always have right people look at me in there but like Andy you're an asshole I'll be like thank you so good um that's what I've been shooting for oh I've changed zero percent since I can tell I think that you've got nice you've got nicer that's English you've gotten a little nicer it depends on the day I think you're you've

softened The stump has softened. Yeah. Maybe. I spoke last year at the Navy SEAL Museum at their Memorial Day ceremony, so they put the guys' names on the wall. And Chad was one of them that year, and they asked me to come speak. So I spoke there, and then I was asked to come back and speak at their muster in November.

I also serve on the board of a nonprofit vets. nonprofit vets. And so I spoke at their gala last year. With the Capone's? Yes. And I spoke, I've done just a couple other speaking events. I spoke at an entrepreneur organization in San Diego about leadership and resiliency. So a lot of times I've shared my story or bringing light and awareness to veterans mental health and blast wave injury. I spoke at the Go Rock Fitness Festival in April, again, sharing my story and kind of resiliency. And I've done a lot of things since Chad has died to try to heal myself. And so that's the path I'm on as public speaking. And I think my time in CrossFit has really helped groom me

for that, as you know. It helped me too. It's, I mean, they're you're forced in front of an audience. Yeah. And CrossFit has it dialed in in terms of how we present and the feedback were given. And I think it really refined, I always enjoyed public speaking. I've always been a really big reader, which I think also helped. But I think that really helped refine my ability to public speak and to tell a story. And so that's kind of just translated across. And I'd like it to keep going.

So I have a handful of speaking events coming the rest of this year. How do people find you for speaking events? Right now, a lot of it happens just within our community. So, you know, other nonprofits and gala's and that sort of thing, which is great. You don't have a website, too. So I do for my foundation. So I started a nonprofit. It's pretty small.

It's called the Step Up Foundation. And it correlates with Chad's workout that we do each year. But I probably need to head that direction because right now I'm kind of a one-man band. So people reach out to me and they talk to me. And then I have to filter and negotiate this. And, you know, I've been asked to speak anywhere from. you know, a local, like, women's chapter to the safety stand down of two aircraft carriers to Verizon employees.

Now, I didn't do those events for a couple of reasons, but I would like for this to continue and grow because I do think sharing my story is valuable when appropriate. But I think also sharing my story of resiliency and leadership. and what I have experienced and the way that can apply to others can also be pretty powerful. So I'd like to see where that takes me. You're going to need a website. Yeah. You're going to help me?

Are you a website builder? Do you have a website builder? Do you know a guy? So Michael is an expert website builder. I'm making this up as we go. Just so, you know. Oh, I wish everyone could. She's like, really?

And that's always like, I'm making this up. I wish people could have seen his face. Your face is so great. So great. He knows me well enough that I oftentimes will just say things that I know nothing about. Okay. Let's roll with it. That's a solvable problem. Yeah, I know.

You could do simple things like sarah wilkinson.com. Right. So you're going to need to get the dumb. We can help you lose these things. I can point in the right direction. I'm not good at any of that, but I know people who are good at it. So we can get that dog. Well, you know, what's interesting since we're talking about it, I don't know if you want to go that way.

But I do have friends in the community who were, you know, do public experience. men like yourself and you know they get paid for it and and requested it doesn't translate the same which is interesting and I don't want to get on like a male female thing because people in the comments will go nuts I don't know if it's that I don't know if it's that it's my story because I am incredibly passionate about changing the narrative of veterans mental health I'm incredibly passionate about having not another woman join the seat next to me. But as this continues, I spend a lot of time invested in what I'm going to say because I want it to matter.

I don't say anything I don't mean. I want it to be powerful. And I think that that's valuable. It's hugely valuable. The one thing that might be standing in your way right now is it just takes time to build the reps. Yeah. And the on-ramp, too, it seems to be long. Yeah.

It's years. Yeah. To really, depending on how far you would want to go with it, your message is equally, if not more powerful. To be honest, you could swing a golf club blindfolded and hit a team guy who publicly speaks. I couldn't because I can't hit a golf ball. Have you seen this swing? Well, here's the thing. It doesn't even matter how bad you are.

That's how many there are. Oh, right. So in any direction, there are people, let's just call the special operations background who are publicly speaking. I have nothing negative to say about that. But the backgrounds are, they're defined by their similarities, not their differences. And you can talk about combat leadership or combat experiences. A lot of it distills down to the same thing. Your message is a very different angle.

Right, right. To approach not only the military service aspect, but again, you know, the price versus cost and the impact that it has on the family, the impact it can have on, you know, post-traumatic stress is not. just about the people who go and kick doors in. Support personnel, you know, the people that make everything possible, they are impacted by it to a degree as well. And to ignore that, to me, is a huge oversight. I think your message might actually have more impact. It just might take you a little bit of time to develop that on ramp for it. A website would be a good start. Michael can help you with that. Somebody told me that once. Get a website. Anybody who builds websites. Now, First, you're going to have to buy the domain name, which beyond that, I don't know how to do.

But I do know how to go on to goaddy.com. Yes, I can do that. I can handle that part. That's all you need to do. All right. And then, well, that's not all you need to do. We'll take that back. That's all I know how to guide you with it.

Cool. This has been successful. Go buy a domain. Yeah. Where's your next stop on your road tour? Ooh. So tomorrow we're going up to Glacier. We got the Sun Pass.

Is that what that's called? Going to the Sun Road. Sun Road. Yes. We have the pass to do that. The friend that's with me, she's going to fly home. I go to Cordillane. I don't know why. I've just always wanted to go there. It's pretty cool. Yeah. And it's not far of like four and a half? Yeah. And then driving over kind of through Washington down Oregon. I love Oregon. Beautiful. And then just going to drive south through California. So I have to get to California in a week because I have to fly to Chicago for an event.

next weekend. There are many airports. Well, I have two dogs with me, unless I can leave them here with you. What type of dogs are they? They are Wheaton Terriers and they're magical. I only like French Bulldogs. Yeah, I sell yours. Actually, French Bulldogs.

It's not actually even mine. I just try to maintain constant possession of him when I'm in the same space. Now there's two. There's a female. Oh, really? French Bulldogs are pretty cool. No, these guys are great. They're actually assholes.

Are they? Kool-Aid is a fucking dick. Wait, his name is Kool-Aid? Yeah. What kind of Kool-Aid? Green Kool-Aid? Red Kool-Aid. Okay. And then the female is Sharkleberry Finn, which is a Kool-Aid flavor. He's an asshole. She's a little terrorist. Do you really say Sharkleberry Finn every time you need to call her? I usually say Osama Finn Laden or Finn. I was like, I would. She'll lick at you and piss on the floor.

We actually took them to a dog park up the street before I came here today. I would pay money to take you to a public place and listen to you yell. Sharkleberry Finn. I would just say Finn. You got to go short for that one. What about Kool-Aid? You just sell Kool-Aid. Cool-Aid. Cool-Aid and Finn. Why would he be off the leash? I can't pet him if he's off the leash.

I'm not going to share his love with others. Because I, Kool-Aid, Sharkle Bear. Who named these dogs? They're owners. Okay. He's got an Instagram page. Kool-Aid actual. Oh.

It's not safe for work or family, but. Does T follow anybody? Does he? Yeah, he does. Oh, so he'll follow me? I can't guarantee because I don't run the account, but I can talk to people in the No. Oh, that's funny.

Cool-Aid. Okay. That's cool. It's good names. My dogs are Bowen and Shortbuss. That's also very good. I have a buddy who just calls her dog O.D. for other dog. It's funny. We're at the dog park and I saw this other dog look just like my grandma's dog. Do you know what his name was? No. Dog. That's incredibly unoriginal. I know.

But I deeply appreciate the simplicity of that too. It's just an ugly, black and white little curly thing named dog. How the fuck did we get on this? I don't know. Oh, because I'm driving the van and I have my dogs. So the deal is I have to get my dogs to San Diego so my friend and my daughter can watch them while I go to Chicago. Got you. Fair enough. That's fair enough.

A week should be enough time to see some really cool shit. I've been already going a week. I left a week ago in Virginia. Yeah. And it's a lot of driving. But I rode my skateboard through the badlands. That's awesome. The coolest place ever.

So drive less and spend more time where you go. Next time take a month. Well, that's where I messed up. So originally started off with a lot of time. Then this event came up and then coming to see you. It's like, yeah, I'll be here. But then you just kind of get there and you kind of wind your day down. Yeah.

Yeah. The move, not that I've done this a bunch, but go and then like dedicate two days. Right. Really get to check it out. Well, next time I'm on the road, maybe I'll be writing my book. So I'm just going to camp out here in Calispell. You should. It's pretty awesome.

Hang out with Kool-Aid and Shark Finnellicious. Sharkleberry Finn. Yep, that one. She's a fucking terrorist. She'll make eye contact and piss on your. floor and then eat something that you don't want eating oh yeah it's the best then she's so loving too cool it's just like fuck you can pet my butt he just turns around and like so he's your dog he's not my dog sounds like it i mean i'm his leader we he understands as i am his leader but he's not

my dog okay people think it is my dog because of his attitude no his attitude is just what he came out of the box with i had no influence over that oh what would you like to end with we've been out for almost three hours i want to get you back are you serious yeah My girlfriend probably thinks I died. I told her to be a couple hours. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I appreciate you having me on.

This has been good. This has been good banter. I think I just want people to really give our military a little bit more credit. I think people like to pretend they're patriotic on all the important times, like Fourth of July, Memorial Day and Veterans Day. And every other day, it's just kind of like whatever. So remember the freedoms you get to enjoy in this country because of the people who chose to fight for them. And if you know a veteran, just reach out and check on them. Yeah.

Legitimately. Like, pick up the phone and call them. Yeah. And I would also say that when it comes to mental health, people also wonder whether they should ask someone if they've ever thought about taking their life. They said it seems counterintuitive because they don't want to plant the seed in their mind. the truth is that won't happen. The best thing you could do is ask someone. And I always default to kind of those TSA rules.

If you see something, say something. So if your gut feels off about somebody, you could very well be right, lean into that. Probably no better way to end it than that. Thanks for coming up. Thank you. All right, Sarah.