Cleared Hot - Powered By BRCC - Episode 254 - Jeb Corliss

Episode Date: October 10, 2022

In 20 + years, Jeb Corliss has made more than 2,000 jumps, from the likes of the Eiffel Tower, Golden Gate Bridge, Angel Falls in Venezuela, the Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, and into a half-mile deep cave in China. He hasn't simply leapt off and pulled his parachute, though. To add an extra layer of challenge, push the bounds of his ability, and further slice the razor slim margin for error, he has performed acrobatic maneuvers – twists, somersaults, and gainers – during freefall. More recently he discovered the thrills and challenges of BASE-jumping with wingsuits, flying along some of the most stunning and dangerous mountain terrain. In the nearest approximation of human flight yet, wingsuits (which are more flying squirrel than bird or plane) allow the best pilots to trace the contours of cliffs, ridges, and mountainsides at high speed. All of which makes for an incredible spectacle: In July 2011, Corliss flew feet from the ground in the Swiss Alps, an event captured on camera and broadcast on ABC's 20/20. Two months later, in September, Corliss swooped through an arch in the side of China's iconic Tianmen Mountain, in front of a live television audience of millions. Corliss's stunts and his unyielding approach to life never fail to fascinate. He has been the subject of profiles published in The New York Times, Outside, Popular Mechanics, Smithsonian Air & Space, Men's Journal and Rolling Stone. He has been featured on television in the United States and abroad, including 60 Minutes in Australia, ESPN's E:60, Real Sports on HBO, Today, The Colbert Report, Good Morning America and Conan. Corliss has been featured in popular BASE documentaries such as A Year in the Life, Journey to the Center, Fearless, The Human Bird, Heavens Gate and The Flying Dagger to name a few. He also hosted the first season of Stunt Junkies on The Discovery Channel and was a technical advisor on the remake of Point Break. When he is not traveling the world, Corliss lives in Vista, California.

Good morning, everybody. I hope your week is starting off well. You know the best way to probably start your week off? Coffee. Yeah, I agree. You know the best type of coffee you can possibly get on planet Earth? That's right. Black Rifle Coffee. Where can you find it? Black Rifle Coffee.com is the best place. I'm looking at their webpage right now, and the first thing I'm seeing is your ability to join the coffee club. So instead of ordering multiple times, you can just put yourself on an ordering matrix for as many bags as you want as often if you want. And then right next to that, they have their exclusive. shirts. Actually, I'm clicking through right now. There are other gear. And then just below that, all of the different blends of coffee that they make from light to extra dark. They even have decaf on there, which is ridiculous. And if you drink decaf, well, you know, drink decaf if you want to. It's 20, 22, almost 20, 23. But I don't recommend it. Why do I like Black Rifle Coffee so much? One, I know the founders and they're awesome people. And two, I love the fact that they are doing everything they can to support veterans, individuals, organizations, and businesses.

So I think those are amazing things. And that's all I have to say about that. Enough on the business side of the house. My guest today is a man that I have known of since very, very early on in my jumping career. His name is Jeb Corliss. And he was off in the backcountry doing gnarly shit, long before there were social media platforms of the modern era

that would allow people to get or achieve notoriety in the way that many people do by pushing the envelope for views and likes. Jeb Corlis is... I'm not going to say he's a madman because he's not. I think he's actually totally sane. He is an absolute savage. Professional skydiver and base jumper

jumped off a few notable items, objects, to say the least. Eiffel Tower in Paris, Space Needle in Seattle, the Christ the Redeemer Statue in Rio de Janeiro, the Patronus Twin Towers in Kuala Lumpur, a bunch of jumps in China. I mean, in addition, those are some of the base jumps that he has done. He's been a skydiver and accomplished skydivers quite some time. He also likes to, you know, swim with sharks. He's a professional GoPro athlete. stunt coordinator.

You might have seen him for a little bit of a cameo in the newest point break movie. Needless to say, he has been jumping what I'll call the front leading edge of what is possible for a very long time. And I couldn't have been happier to get the opportunity to sit down and have a conversation with him about who he is,

why he does the things that he does and what he's got playing for the future. Episode number 254 with Jeb Corliss. Enjoy. I'm looking at danger close now. You ready to do this? After months and months and months and months and months of texting? Yeah, it's been back and forth quite a bit. It has. We were just talking about how ridiculously safe base jumping is.

I think the only thing more dangerous in base jumping was your job before. I would say military and war is probably the one thing that, depending on whose side you're on, is more dangerous than base jumping. I mean, that actually would be an interesting comparison because you'd have to look. I still can't figure out. And I've, so my kind of mentor into base jumping was Miles Dasher. Okay.

Who, wonderful guy. Surprisingly enough, is sponsored by Red Bull, but needs no energy drinks of any kind. Nope. He's the most high energy human being I've ever met, period. I think they actually bring him down a notch.

I'm not sure the chemical composure and how that works, but, um, so he was, you know, he was my mentor into the sport. And I asked him, how many people do you think base jump?

And it's always just, it's just like wild. conjecture. Nobody really knows. I mean, because I think I've actually even asked like Matt and Mike, because they make, you know, they own squirrel. It's like how many. They have the best idea for sure. Well, that between them and probably Phoenix Fly and maybe Tony and Apex and Apex and you added all that together. And so I mean, there's probably been average sale community is going to be float at 2,500, but people leave and come out. I think the numbers might be relative. Similar. Depending on the year. Now, now especially. Back in the early, like when we started,

it wasn't that many. Well, when you started, I started much after you did. Trust me, I was watching videos of you long before I started. And it also kind of depends on what you consider a base jumper, right? Is a base jumper a person who jumps off bridges, you know, or is it a person who does all four objects? Is it a person who does a hundred jumps a year, a thousand, you know, how many, what makes you a base jumper?

What makes a person active, right? Is there an answer to this question? And there isn't. It's all conjection. It's made up. And that's why it's very difficult to really judge, right? Yeah. But I would say you're probably accurate.

I'd say now with how popular the sports become, I would say there's probably 2,500, would be the guess of active base jumpers around the world. That's what I would put it. People who are current, who are traveling, they're doing probably multiple, I mean... Between 1,500 jumps a year. Yeah, and they're hitting the parine

and then they're going somewhere else. And I'd have to, I mean, on any given year, I mean, there are some years that are catastrophic in the military, but now that kinetic operations have kind of toned down. Yeah. There's some years where base jumping, the fatalities, seed military, especially in the conduct of war substantially.

You know, we were talking about you had just gotten back from Europe and, you know, it used to be 20% of the time you'd go over there and somebody would die. Now 80%. And so Miles, Miles was great. I met him. You might know her too. Bonnie. She used to own the gear shop in our skydive San Diego.

I know the name. Don't know her, but I know that. Yeah. And I was jumping in San Diego because I lived there. I had like remembered some random conversation that she knew Miles. I was like, listen, I need to get a hold of Miles. And she tosses me some like Miles at Hotmail shit. Okay.

I'm like, fuck it. I'm going to reach out. He gets back to me. I'm like, son of a bitch. And we meet each other at the parking lot before there was the new visitor center at the bridge. So he comes sauntering up. I knew it was him because he had a red bow hat on slightly askew, which is how Miles rolls. Yeah.

And he was great. We went to the bridge multiple times. and he mentored me through my first trip to Europe, Italy first. He's a great person to learn from. I mean, one of the most experienced jumpers on the planet. He was the most at the time. I think he still is. I mean, as far as numbers, I mean, he's got the most jumps.

I think he's been passed, actually. Shuma probably passed. Yeah, Sean Schumann. You can't, I mean, you know, that's hard because they're both, you know. Just because Shuma does 40 jumps a day off that bridge and can hike it in like several minutes. Yeah. But when I went over that first trip, you know, we did, Monta Brento, excellent place to start, slick, and then first wings two jumps, and then we went

to Laude Brunen, I think first we did Yellow Ocean, then the low LaMuse, and then started working our way over to the Via Ferrata, and eventually, you know, I'd gone there with a few times, but the first trip, we were in the valley, it was amazing. My family was actually there, zero fatalities. Wow, that's rare. Indeed. Well, and also I was only there for like nine days. So for the season, I'm sure there were fatalities. But when I was there in my personal experience, it's like, this is fucking awesome. Everybody does this. Everyone's having fun. Wow, sunshine and rainbows. Isn't this awesome? We all meet at the Horner pub afterwards. And then we get brought worst. And then we have an espresso. And then I went back a second time. I was there with my buddy Alex.

And I swear to God, there was somebody going in every fucking day. It was about three or four years ago and we would be you know we would go jump high limous and somebody would go in off high ultimate yeah we would go to the other side and we would jump via ferrata and somebody would fucking go in yeah and it's just like that was at 2016 that was I think the bad

it was almost 40 fatalities and there was 10 days with a death every single day for 10 days I was there during that time and so the helicopter right you'd be like hiking and and you see and you're like okay let's balance these two experiences and exposure. I mean, I think it's very easy for my own experience.

I've always tried to be very cognizant of the risk. Not that I'm perfect in that, but I have watched people lose sight and get wrapped up in the fun and excitement and the footage as opposed to what's actually happening. And, man. Well, I think it's a phenomenon in the sport that, I mean, it's always kind of been this way

where it draws in a very specific type of mindset, like a specific type of person who's, they like to take risks. I mean, that's just it. I mean, no one gets into base jumping thinking it's safe. No one. I mean, really. No one thinks base jumping is safe. However, the justifications for the safety are interesting. But there are people who think, I mean, and this is happening more and more is, I'm meeting more and more people who are diluting themselves. They get into this strange delusion that if they buy brand new gear, they do the proper training, do the right amount of jumps and just, you know, if I'm really careful, I can do this safely. And that's just not true. And they're being, they are diluting themselves. I think the, the reality of base jumping is there is no work, you can't use the word safe anywhere in the sport, period. There's nothing safe about it on any level, period. I think there's three levels of base jumping.

There's dangerous. There's really dangerous. And then there's stupid fucking dangerous, right? And those are the three levels of what base jumping is. And you can do things like proper training, proper equipment, being current, you know, doing, doing the proper progression, you can tilt odds into your favor, right? You can make, you can give yourself the best chance for success, right? But it's one of the few activities I've been part of where you can do everything right,

make no real mistakes. And still die. And still die. And that is a, and it's funny because, you know, base jumpers, whenever someone dies, they have to come up with a reason. They get into these arguments and there has to be a reason. And they have to try to understand that reason so they can somehow in themselves go, okay, he made a mistake, and I'm not going to make that mistake.

But what they don't realize is that, and this is, you know, I'm talking about guys who've been in it for at least a decade and who have been, like, charging, doing this for a decade. Every one of them have already made those mistakes. Yeah. And that's what they, it's hard. Like, it's funny to see it too. Like, I see these guys and they start talking about, like, what they did wrong. And it's like, dude, you realize you've done that too.

You know, the difference between them and you is you got lucky. And they didn't. And lucky, I don't see it as a force, right? It's not a thing that does things. It's a description. You're describing something that should have gone a different way. And the odds were against you. And it just worked out.

That's luck, right? You got lucky because it shouldn't have worked out for you, but it did. And in base jumping, that happens a lot to all of us. And I think what people don't grasp about the sport is it has incredibly small margins for error. Like really tiny. You don't need to make big mistakes for really serious. bad things to happen to you. So you can make a little tiny mistake and it could have catastrophic consequences. And guess what? We're human beings. Human beings make mistakes. That's part of

being human, you know? And that's why I think base jumping is as dangerous and it is as lethal as it is. It's because we're human beings. We make mistakes. And when you make mistakes in something like this, it's serious. It's super serious. But having said that, you just got back from Europe. Well, no, but that's what makes it powerful. Yeah. That's why people, like, again, it's a certain type of human being. Like, I'm going to be honest with you. When I meet someone and they tell me, oh, I want to get into base jumping, especially

proximity flying. I want to get into being proximity flyer. My first priority is to talk them out of it. Yeah. Like, my goal is to convince a person not to do this under any circumstance. Like, if you can avoid this, like, if you can find happiness in your life doing anything else, follow it. Do anything else.

Literally do anything. else with your life if you can find happiness but there are a certain types of people who can't right they're wired in a kind of a a different way where they need extreme experience in order to um find happiness in order to be happy to be fulfilled to have a purpose to exist like a reason to live like it gives them and you can see it they're a jump or two this is their reason to live yeah you know And if you're that kind of person, right, I'm totally cool with you doing dangerous stuff. Like, there's nothing wrong with doing dangerous things. I think it's totally okay.

And actually, in many instances, that's how human beings evolve and grow and become something new and get strong. By doing things that are risky and dangerous. That's what moves the species forward. And there's nothing wrong with it. As long as you don't dilute yourself, as long as you're being realistic, it doesn't take courage to do something that doesn't scare you. Right. So if you're just fooling yourself into thinking this isn't dangerous or that you can somehow you're the one, you know, you got this magical ability to not die, right? You're just magic. Well, then I don't respect your death. I'm sorry. If you go into this thinking it's safe and you die. Yeah. Dude, you died like a sucker. That's not, that's not being smart. But if you accept the reality, you understand how dangerous it is. You accept the danger that's involved. And then you still do it. Well, that takes courage. See, that's a person who you're facing your fear, you're growing mentally and you're becoming stronger. And I personally think that optimists are foolish.

Being an optimist is the wrong way to be in a sport that can kill you. Being a pessimist is also the wrong approach. There's only one proper approach. Be realistic. You must be a realist. And if you can do that, if you can be realistic about what you're doing, what you're partaking in, and you accept the consequences. That's what this is all about, right?

Accepting the consequences for your actions. If you're that person and you go out there knowing, okay, this, you know, I've always been a little like kind of, I don't know if controversial is the right word, but a lot of jumpers don't like me because they think I'm negative. Like they're like, you're such a negative guy. You talk about the sport in such a negative way. And it's funny because I used to think I was different. Like I was abnormal in the way I approached the sport or my life, right? And I would go into base jumps anticipating death

Like accepting it Like I am This is so lethal Like truly thinking through it No yeah It's true I'm going to die right now Like I'm doing this knowing It's going to equal death

Right And that's a unique way of looking at things Most people don't do that Right that's not the approach At least I didn't think they did Like I thought that was a unique thing That I would go into it going Okay I'm accepting the worst case scenario

And now I'm going to do everything My power to make sure that doesn't happen That was kind of my approach approach. And I thought for a long time, I'm like, I didn't hear other base members talk like that or I didn't really meet other base members who approached it like that. And then later I started reading about samurai warriors and started reading about like Spartans, right? And in their approach to going into combat. And what I started learning is that I'm not unique at all. There were entire cultures that that was their entire approach. A samurai would go into battle

accepting death, knowing I am going to die right now. And then what that did is it freed him from his fear of it, right? That acceptance allowed him to finally just let it go and then operate at optimum, like, and his optimum abilities to make sure that didn't happen. It's a different approach. It's not a suicidal thought. It's the opposite. You're not saying I want to die.

Yeah, you're not saying I want, you don't want to die. You could just take the parachute off for that and still do the jump. Exactly. But that's the thing, right? So for me, it was like a mental, I realized later that what I was doing was a mental exercise. Yeah. Like I was, it was my way of coping with fear because that's really at the end of the day. That's what I do, right?

I mean, my job is really dealing with gut-wrenching horror and trying to work my way through it. And I used that gut-wrenching horror to work through mental issues that I was dealing with, which is funny because you know, you read my book. Yeah. Which is interesting, you're the first one to get it. Like you got it before I got it, which I thought. No shit. Yeah.

You literally got one before. I got one. It was good, man. Oh, well, thank you. I mean, it's based around, you know, memoirs from the edge, if you will. It's, you know, it's based, you look at it through the lens of skydiving, but we were kind of texting back and forth. You're covering a lot of deeper issues, like more of who you are, where you came from,

and I think how you probably found yourself as a person. Yeah. And to me, you know, reading that, I don't think anybody knows who the fuck they are when they're young. And being young is tough, especially for, not that it's easy for young women, but the amount of hormones and testosterone running through a young man's body. I say this having two teenage sons. Oh, yeah.

They're out of fucking control. Oh, yeah. The decision-making process completely insane, and it seems like you were able to find yourself in that pursuit. There was something about it that drew you to it. And then you're, the fact that you're still alive, actually, for as long as you've been doing it. And the headspace that you have described, I think it's actually the only, it's really the only

healthy approach to it is to actually, if you're, because if you're not considering the totality of what can happen. And if you're not, and if you are bumping up with mental hurdles on the way, like you're probably better off not putting your toes over the edge. If you have all these mental blocks

and you haven't totally thought it through. Yeah. Because you are lying to yourself if you haven't really thought at it at that level. I agree 100%. And I do feel like, you know, there are many approaches to teaching, right? And I probably am not the best teacher.

Like I've only taught a few people. Actually, I've been teaching my fiancé over the last six years, like, how to jump. Do you talk to you on the bridge, but like, listen, so you're going to die? Yes, I actually do. And it's funny because she's like, Jeff, you make this so hard. Like, it's- It should be hard. And I'm like, I'm all, I'm all, Allie, I'm going to be honest with you. If you can't handle me saying things like this to you at the exit point, then you shouldn't be doing this.

Literally, because this sport is very brutal. And again, I have kind of a problem with people just showing good footage all the time. Like all they show is their successful jumps and everything going well and everything looks great. And all you see is these compilation videos of everything looking rad and everything looking fun. And when someone dies, they take the footage and destroy it or they won't show it to anyone. Or when they get injured, they refuse to let people even know what happened. Right. And I think that's doing a major disservice to people who are thinking about getting into it.

Do you get email? I get emails literally people who have never jumped. And these are the ones that scare me. Hey, what's the fastest way that I can get into that wingsuit thing? Yeah. Or, hey, I just started skydiving. How many jumps do you think I need to do before I put a wingsuit on? That is, and that's the, I hate to say, that's the majority of people, is what is the least amount of effort I have to put in to make this happen.

That's what happens, though, when most of the first of the first. footage, if not all, is peaks and there's no valleys. If it was forward-facing head cam going into the fucking base of a tree at 120, and there was a dossier of those, people might back the fuck off a little bit. Well, and there's a guy named Tom Iello who teaches courses at the prine. And I think he's got the best approach I've ever seen of anything. And he forces a person when they're going to take his course to sign basically a suicide letter to their family.

That's straight up. You need to write a letter to your family. I've heard of this. Letting them know that you're doing this and that you are willing to die, that you are accepting your death by doing this. This is 100% your choice and you need to tell them why. Like why you're doing this. So he forces them to do that first.

And then second, he forces them to watch something called the fatality tape, which is just a tape of base jumping fatalities. Like things that killed people while base jumping, you watch these people die. And the idea that, you know, oh, well, that's, I don't want to see that. Well, and what are you doing here? Yeah, because it may not, well, actually, the easy. easiest thing would be if it did happen to you because you wouldn't fucking know it. Exactly. I mean, the sport is...

Well, it's about scaring you out of it, right? So it helps you understand yourself. Like, I've met a couple jumpers who were very experienced, who, for instance, there was, we were doing WW and World Wingsuit League. Yeah, World Wingsuit League. It's a race. You're racing, essentially, smoke, it's fancy. It's not a big deal. The best wingsuit pilots in the world. But we had the greatest pilots there. And one of them had just had a really serious accident. And they had had a mid-air collision. and the guy who hit him, like he was flying,

he actually got hit by another pilot, and the guy who hit him died on impact, and it broke his legs and stuff. Anyways, he had the footage from the pilot who hit him, his camera, and the camera actually ended up facing back into the helmet. No way. So you see the guy's face.

Post impact. Post impact. So you see the impact, you see him unconscious, and you see spiraling, spiraling, spiraling, and everyone thinks, oh, you know, I have an AAD, you know, that'll save me. Not in a wing suit, it won't.

Yeah. And the reason why it won't, is because he starts spinning and spinning and spinning and builds up so much centrifugal force that you see his eyes come out of his skull and the brains follow him. Are you fucking serious? Yeah, so he's dead before he even, he's long dead.

I mean, if he didn't die on impacting my buddy, he died from his eyes coming out and his brain just basically exploding in his skull from the centrifugal force. Sometimes I wish GoPro wasn't 4K. You know, I'll take that one in like a 1080P. But the thing though is it's important to understand. understand that though.

Yeah. Right? Because a lot of people are in this delusional state that, oh, if I get knocked out, I have my AED to save me. Even skydiving. Like, forget base jumping. Like, skydiving is a safe world, right? Is it?

Well. It's because they've never been in a spin skydiving and blown their blood vessels because they were spinning so fast. Exactly. And that happens like that. Oh, but what got me wasn't, I mean, the footage was what it was, you know, and it's very visceral and it's very educational. Like, you learn instantly.

More than anyone saying something to you, anyone talking to you, witnessing that instantly locks into your brain, okay, if I start spinning out of control, open a reserve, do something. Like, you've got to stop that as quick as possible because if it gets too far out and you lose consciousness, you're done, right? Or you could be done.

You could be done. Yeah. So, but one of the pilots very experienced, he wouldn't watch the footage. He refused. It's like, I don't want to see that. And it's like, dude, what are you talking about? Because they're like, oh, it's morbid and,

dude, this is training. This is teaching. This is a teachable moment. You can learn from this. This can help save you. And he was arguing that an AAD would save you. And I'm like, why don't you just watch? And you'll know that that delusional thing that you have in your head that's making you feel more comfortable and confident about what you're doing isn't true.

Like isn't real. At least there's a good chance that it's not going to work for you. So again, when people try to deny reality or won't look at reality or that, That to me is concerning. It's always been concerning. And I've always been a person, like, again, one of the reasons why I think a lot of jumpers throughout my career haven't liked me or don't like me is because I am so honest

about how dangerous it is. And they're like, oh, you're just dramatizing. I'm like, or they're like, you're either dramatizing it or you're making the sport look bad. And I'm always like, well, the sport makes the sport look bad. Like, I'm not doing anything other than just saying what my experience has been. Like, my book is just my experiences. just what has happened to me. I'm not making things up. I'm not telling stories that didn't

happen. I mean, these are things that happened to me. These are my experiences. And maybe, you know, someone gets in a sport and they have different experiences than I do, right? Maybe it hasn't been as heavy for them or as extreme for them. They haven't seen as many people die. They should know it's possible, though. Well, if you've been in the sport for a decade, you're going to, it's a me grinder. You've seen it. It's happened. I mean, when Ali, I was training her and we were going to the SWIP to lots of burden for our first trip, which is the most amazing fucking value. It's like a postcard everywhere you look. It's, it's literally where Lord of the Rings comes from. Like that's what inspired the book was this place. Like the,

the valley of the, like, point of ear dudes who are basically with the waterfalls, that's this place. Fucking amazing. The elf place is where this is. So it's stunning. It's stunning. But it's also the valley of death. You go there, you're going to watch people die. I mean, it's just, that's just it. And I told her this. I'm like, you know, okay, we're going there. I just want you prepare yourself because when we're there you're most likely going to see someone die and she's like oh god jeb why are you so dark like does everything have to be death why is it always so dark and i'm like i'm just preparing you for the reality of what we're about to do you know so just prepare yourself and she just kind of blew me off like yeah whatever you're just being dark first jump first day

no way dude actually it was not first jump it was second jump we did yellow ocean first and then yellow ocean is the traditional warm up the traditional yeah for your first cliff off there is you go to Yellow Ocean because it's overhanging, it's the safest. And then for our second jump, we decided to go to Le Moose. And you know Le Moose, it's right next to Yellow Ocean. It's about 400 feet taller. Watch out for the moss. Yes.

Don't fucking slip and fall. They call it Le Moose because it means the moss in French because it's slippery. But in any event, we're getting ready. We're gearing up. There's a group of like six guys who were there before us. And we're all kind of gearing up together. She gets ready first. And like, I'm putting my stuff on.

And all of a sudden, you know, she gets to the edge. And she's like, hey, like, what's that? And I'm like looking at what she's kind of pointing at And I thought she was pointing at the flag Yep I thought she was pointing at the flag And I'm like oh that's just a flag for the waterfall She said no no no no no not that

Not that what's that? And there was like a tree that I couldn't see So I look around the tree and sure enough Can it be on the wall across Basically someone was jumping high nose And they're obviously on the wall Right yeah And you're like oh no

You're like So instantly we have to call down So we call the helicopter And we're like yeah We see they're like we see a canopy hung up on the wall about halfway down, high nose. And they're like, yeah, we know. We're in the process of trying to do a rescue.

They'll do not jump. Stay where you are. Give us like 30 minutes. You know, call us back in 30 minutes. So we call them back 30 minutes later. They're like, no, we're still in the process. So every 30 minutes for like four hours, we're calling them. And we can just see this whole thing unfolding.

And it becomes the longest long line rescue, basically in history, over 2,000 feet of long line. That's what I was thinking in my head when you were describing. this like holy shit because the helicopter's not going to be able to just bump up against that no no it it was the rescue was the gnarliest rescue i've ever seen they had to go get extra long lines that's why i was taking so long was the jumper still alive oh no he was dead on impact but but but we didn't know that i mean nobody knew that at the time i mean yes he was dead on impact he wasn't alive they they were doing a body recovery um i think they knew by like the fourth hour that it was a recovery not actually getting someone but you'll like this story not to interrupt yours i'm in the valley

and a group of three people are going to send it off, high ultimate, off of the ramp. Yeah. Get a good fucking push. You know. Got to push hard there, yeah. Got to push hard. One of the three doesn't and hangs himself up in the trees.

Canopy comes out. Okay. His two buddies go to the fucking Horner and just are like, leave him. Leave him dead. They go up there and the fuck are still alive. They had already called his family. Wow.

Those are good friends. Geez. Buddy is only half the word. Wow. That's a horrible. That's why I asked if the person was still alive because the one time I was there, the fucker was still alive. I'm not saying he was in great shape. No, but I mean, the problem was they went, even if he wasn't alive, you don't just go to the horner and go get drinks.

You call. I mean, wow, that's bad friends. That's terrible friends. You got to be careful who you jump with. And it's funny because that was one thing that, you know, I always thought of base jump. kind of is, again, I'm not a soldier, I've never been to war, I've known very little about it, but I've always seen how there's like this brotherhood, right? Whenever you watch movies or you see anything that these people care about each other.

Sometimes. They make it look like that. Yeah, from what you see. On TV, for sure. From what you gather, it's this like brotherhood of people who if someone drugs falls, you're going to do what you can to get them out. Like that's always been something that I've seen, you know, that you respect. You respect about military.

And that's how I've always felt about base jumping, right? You have a group of guys, you're working together, you're usually, in very remote places. If something bad happens, they're going to be the ones who save you. Like, they're going to be the one,

you're going to be relying on them to get your ass out of there. And what you just told me is one of the, like, grandest violations of just the most basic, like, basic, like, friend or even, forget friend,

human, like just, even if you're not friends with this dude, a human being should at least be, like, trying to get to the body, you know? That's remarkable. That's a remarkable story. My theory is,

If you go into the mountains with people, you come out together. You go in together, you come out together. If something happens, it's an all-stop, and it's an individual group sport, as far as I'm concerned. But I agree with you. You've got to be cautious with who you go in the mountains with. Well, those guys, I mean, I'd love to, after this is done, you can tell me who they are, because I don't ever want to be.

I didn't actually know their names because I believe they were very, very new into the sport. I think it was their first trip into the valley. I was actually looking for, because me and my buddy were there, and we had jumped quite a bit together. We had similar military experiences. We were looking to hopefully run into them. We wanted to have a little. little chat. Well, yeah, because that's just, I've never, it's as fucked up as it gets. I haven't heard of anything like it. Like, that's unique. That's unique. But I will say this, I've seen stuff from high ultimate that boggles the mind and, and defies, like, physics. We should describe it. So it's, I mean, it's, it's essentially a large metal ramp that somebody local puts up every year. Well, the ramp's not always there. Because you can repel down, right? Isn't there a lower ledge? So there's two, so there's two jumps. There's the high ultimate. Which is the ramp. Which is, so. It's,

Sometimes. Yeah. The ramp is only there during the winters. You're fucking insane to try to jump that without a ramp. Most people do, though. You better get a good running start. So what it is, it's the highest cliff that's easy access in the Lottaburton Valley. It's almost 2,000 something feet tall.

And it has like this positive belly that comes out. You have to jump at least 20 feet out. I mean, it's a big jump. Like it's not little. You got to push really hard, have a good jump. to get away from this thing. And the problem is it's also just a one-minute hike. So it's like the-downhill.

Downhill. That's like the easiest place to jump from. So base jumpers are sometimes pretty lazy, and they don't want to actually have to, like, work too hard to get places. So it's become a very popular place to jump, even though it's a very dangerous jump to do. I mean, it's, I think it's now the number one killer and injurer, like that injures people and kills people in the valley,

because it is technical, very technical jump. Anyway, I've witnessed people. there do it's hard to even describe because what I'm going to tell you doesn't sound real and and even now remembering it and and witnessing it I still have difficulty wrapping my head around everything I saw but what it was was I was standing there actually with Fred and Vince you know friend Vince yeah so I was actually with Vince you know who's no longer with us but yeah wonderful guy super nice and we're just saying they're like super tragic oh tragic but anyways super duper nice guy really friendly um you wouldn't even know he was French anyway

Really good, dude. And we're just saying they're like talking stuff. And all of a sudden, you know, the wind starts picking up. And you're like, wow, it's kind of getting strong, you know. And then all of a sudden we see a guy going off. You know, we see him in free fall tracking. And you're like, ooh, let's see how this goes, you know, because the winds are pretty strong. But still somewhat reasonable.

You see them open and you see him kind of backing up under canopy and land. And you're like, oh, okay. Then all of a sudden, the wind picks up like triple that speed. We're like, oh, whoa, this is like really strong. And then all of a sudden we see another guy in free fall. And we're like, oh, no, like this isn't going to be good. And he opens up and he's flying backwards really fast. But he ends up landing safely again.

And you're like, okay. And then the wind really picks up. My guess is 60, 70 miles an hour. Like, it's so strong that, you know, the valley's all grass. It starts literally pulling grass up off the ground. And it's almost like, think of like a dirt devil, but everywhere. Like, I'm like, what? I mean, super strong wind where you're actually kind of pushing against it to stay standing upright.

Which is obviously a fucking no-go for jumping. Dude, it's this, I've never, it's absolutely unbelievable how strong the wind was. And all of a sudden, we see a third guy. And we're like, oh no, like, you know this is going to be serious. Like, this is very, very bad. It's so bad that he's actually being. pushed sideways in his track. So you see him crabbing sideways, the wind's blowing him so hard.

His parachute deploys, and it doesn't deploy above his head. It deploys sideways. Oh, he's so fucked. So the wind is so strong, it's faster than what he's falling. Like, it's literally pushing, it pushes his canopy sideways, and you see it open, and then he just flies sideways, like completely sideways. And at the high ultimate, there's a cable car that takes you up. You've been there, right?

so you know the cable car. Okay, so you'll understand what I'm saying. It's going to be hard for people who haven't seen this. But people have seen cable cars and understand how they work. He hits the cable car, like the actual cable itself. So as he hits it, the canopy goes above it and he goes below it and it actually spins him around the cable three times. So you watch this happen.

It's worked. That's just the beginning. So he hits it. It spins him three times and you're just like, holy shit. But it's so strong that it continues pulling and He grabs him back three times the other way again. So you see him go, and then grabs, and then yanks him and pulls him up. And he goes, pulls him off.

He hits the building. So you know that building that it's attached to? He hits that building, and then it pulls him up the side of the building three stories. So he literally hits the building and drags him up to the top of the building. As he gets to the top, there's like an antenna with like these like, you know, spikes coming off of it. Yeah. And he tries to grab onto it. So he grabs onto this antenna of spikes.

and you're just like, ugh, like, unbelievable, you see him get ripped over the top of it and you just see him disappear behind the back of the building. This guy's having the worst base jumping experience I've ever heard. I mean, this guy's dead. Like, there's zero percent chance he's alive. We're like, we are going to a dead body. So Vince and I just start running.

So we run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run. We run around the building. We see him, like, laying on the ground. And I think I'm coming to a dead guy. And all of a sudden, as I get close, he starts trying to stand up. He's totally dazed. Blood's coming out of everywhere. And you're just like, dude, like stay down.

Like stop moving. Don't move. Lay down. Where, you know, help is on the way. We'd already called. They're already coming. Don't worry. Just stay where you are. But he wasn't listening.

Like, you could see, he was like, you know, when a person gets knocked out and they're like, he's kind of like still trying to stand up. He had a rough few moments. Oh, dude. Well, this is what's shocking. He barely got hurt. He broke his leg. And there was obviously lacerations and cuts and stuff.

But he got out of the hospital. that night. And I was like, what? I, it boggled my mind. Because if you had seen what I saw, you're like,

that is, this is a dead person. Yeah, it's a face is a death video. Zero percent chance a person could survive it. Unsurvivable. Unsurvivable. And he got out with a broken leg.

And I was like, that's what's crazy about. Like, I guess the sport in life, right? You can have like the tiniest little thing. Right? You can slip in your bathtub and kill yourself or fall down the stairs.

whatever and die. Or you can do that, right? This can happen to you and you can... Just send the high ultimate 90 mile an hour wind and be okay. You know, I wish I knew how fast the winds were. If it was pulling grass up and out, it had to be 60 plus. No, it was definitely over 60, but it could have been 90. Because what it was, we realized is it was a storm was coming.

Yeah, storm front. It was basically, you could see a big, like, thunderhead coming our way, and it would just scent this crazy strong wind. And it was just, I've seen things. that are so impossible to believe. And, you know, I got into sport, like I said earlier, you know, thinking, oh, that's kind of a dangerous thing to do, you know? Yeah, but when you got into it, there wasn't, I mean, what year did you start?

I started skydiving in 94. Yeah, internet wasn't what it was. Social media wasn't what it was. There's no fucking YouTube. No, but you, but we had videos, though. Yeah, but the people who were proximal to jumping had videos. Yeah. You know, like nowadays, you could be on your phone and you're like somebody in, uh, fucking,

I don't know, I'm trying to think of a country in the middle of goddamn Iran. We'll just say Kentucky. Yeah. It was never going to jump. They have access to it and they're watching what you're doing and they could develop an interest. Well, yeah, dude, I, I, so you can track videos on, on YouTube, right? You know where people are watching, people are watching me in the Vatican. I mean, you're like, like, who's watching this in the Vatican?

Right? You're like, what? Who is this man in all? black to find the Lord. It's bizarre, but you can see, like, it's everywhere. Every country, everywhere in the world is watching this stuff. And like you said, yeah, with YouTube now, it is literally, I mean, when I started base jumping, you know, people ask me, so what do you do?

Right. I mean, I've been earning a living as a base jumper now for, since I was 21. So for 25 years, I've been a professional base jumper. And when I started base jumping, people would say, you know, what do you do? And I'm like, oh, you're in a band? They think I'm a bass drummer, right? And I'm like, no, no, no, I'm a base jumper. And you'd have to spend like 20 minutes explaining what base jumping is because people just didn't know.

Or you just say, yeah, I'm a bass drummer. And you fucking walk off. That's what, that's the move. That's a better move. 15 questions into the night, you're like, base drummer. I enjoy engaging. I like talking to people. So for me, I would enjoy the process of like explaining it and getting people to understand.

But you were in it long before it had achieved the, I mean. Nobody knew what it was. Nobody did it was. And, you know, fast forward now, you mean, you know, you're the technical advisor and in the new point break movie. Which, by the way, you fuckers combine like three different jumps into that, maybe a different exit point, you know? Well, it was actually 60 jumps and it was two exit points.

I know. But, but I will say this, it was, they used very minimal CGI on the wingsuit flying sequence. And what they did with that sequence was mind boggling. I don't, I don't think people can fully grasp what they did there. But it was, when I watched what they were going for, what they were trying to get, and the fact they wanted four guys flying close proximity, going between camera positions, in between trees, it was the gnarliest thing I've ever seen in my life. So gnarly.

I mean, and there's a- When you super slow-mo the final take when John's tail wing is touching the grass. It's like, listen, guys, if that's not what you wanted, I don't know what to tell you. Because closer equals one of these fours going in. Yeah, well, I... we're not going to go into that. Let's just say that wasn't on the plan, you know. That was probably, I mean, and for people know what we're talking about,

there's a actually one of your very viral and famous videos grinding the crack, which I introduced Michael to. He's such a fucking, I'm like teaching him about life. He had never even, I mean, he's probably Googling right now. Like, do not be on the squirrel website buying shit right now. He's on the fence as to whether or not he wants to be a base jumper. But by the end of this conversation, he's not going to want to be a bas jumper. I know.

I'm kind of like watching, he's just like, ha. But that jump, and so for people who would some idea of what we're talking about, go onto YouTube and grinding the crap, crack. Grinding the crap, that would be a good one, too. No, grinding the crack. Yeah. Well, that's why, grinding the crack is why it was in point break. Yeah. That was the reason.

So it's in Volenstadt, right? Sputnik exit. And it doesn't look like much until you get closer to the actual crack itself. There is a large field that you can kind of. kind of use as a gun site. Yeah. And you can see your video and then go to the trailer for point break and put it on slow motion and go frame by frame when the four of them are coming at you.

And you will watch a man's, the rear leading edge between his legs, the tail wing, is literally contacting the grass. That's about as low as it gets. He had grass hitting him in the face. So if you have- Fuck that. If you have grass hitting you in the face and you're about, you know, five foot ten, what's happening with your legs behind you, you know?

Well, think about this. If you were doing that jump by yourself and you had grass hitting you in the face, that's one thing. He was in a formation. Oh, yeah. That's a completely different ball of wax. Anyways, I'm... And we'll leave it at that. I'm glad he survived and it's an incredible scene.

It is... Most people do not grasp the magnitude of what that scene is. Like, what went into creating it. It is hands down the gnarliest thing ever filmed and placed on... footage that doesn't involve people dying. Like it is absolutely unbelievable. And it's fascinating because a lot of people when we were, we were actually in the editing bay and nothing had been done to it.

Like it was raw footage. And the guy who was editing it, he's like, man, you guys are really good on the CGI. And they're like, we're like, uh, that's raw footage, honey. That's raw, bro. It hasn't even color graded yet, dude. What are you talking about? It's like, he's like, he's all, what he's all this wasn't done with wires.

And it's like, no, no, no. That was really a dude doing that. You couldn't recreate that with wires. It would look so fake. No, no. That was the whole point, right? They wanted it to be as real. And that's what I loved about Erickson CORE and the making of that particular film was they wanted everything to be done as real.

And I love that when, you know, you get directors and producers who are like, we want to do this for real. And actually, it's funny because they came to me for the Wink Suit sequence. Like, yeah, we want to get four dudes, you know, to fit into this. And they gave me the script and this is the storyline. And we just need four guys flying close proximity, you know, going in between trees and doing something super gnarly. And I'm like, well, there's only one place for that. Yeah. And you know the guys. Yeah. And we know all the best guys. So it was a wonderful experience and it was great to work on.

It's funny because I, you know, in my book, I have a chapter on point break. But I don't really talk about any of that. Yeah. It's funny. It will be lost on most people who are not jumpers and haven't physically been there and flown at themselves. Yeah. It's. Well, and then I also, I used it as, I used that chapter as an opportunity to talk about something that, that I.

I felt mattered, which was death, you know, and people's understanding of death. And I, and it was interesting because I start out the chapter talking about, you know, point break. And then I actually, like, halfway through, I'm like, okay, but, you know, it all happened. It was great, but that's not really what I want to talk about. And then I go into the concept of what death is, you know, and people's understanding of what death is. And it was funny because I was forced to go do, like, publicity for the film.

Like, I'm not, you know, I'm not an actor, you know, and I don't do that. I saw you acting in the film. What are you talking about? Technically, you are an actor, Jeb. I was doing a cameo with myself, but I'm not an actor, right? So ordinarily, I don't go do press for films. Like, that's not, I mean, if I work on a movie, I'm, you know, I'm based like a stunt dude. You know, we do stuff.

Nobody knows we're there. We're pretending to be someone else, right? Nobody knows Tim Rigby is the die in Iron Man ejecting. And everything? Like, Tim Rigby in every movie ever made. I mean, Matrix, he was the ghost. I mean, anyways. Was he really?

Yeah, he was one of the ghosts. That little English fuck. I know, he's dude. You pick a movie back from like, he, he, he, he, he, he's, he's, he, he, He died, I think he died like 10 different times in 300. He was three different, three, like, that's where I met him. It was on the set of 300. Yeah, that's how we got linked up through Mark Twight.

Oh, awesome. It was so awesome. That's good. So do you were one of the 300 guys? Fuck no. I was still active duty. Fuck no. I was active duty military and I had, I was recovering from getting shot overseas.

And I had been, I had changed the workout style of, I had been doing like chest and tries and back and buys and running for like, forever, which is what people. did. And I got exposed to a different methodology through Mark Dwight. He came to the command I was at. And then he was up shooting and it gave me the opportunity basically just to go work with him on the exercise side of the house.

So I just basically hung out with Mark and worked out with everybody as they rotated their way through. So you were the guy that's basically training Tim and getting them all ripped and cut to me. I mean I was the guy hanging out with the dude going to craft services quite a bit and they'd be like is anybody want a milkshake? I'm like, fuck yeah, I'll take two of those. And I would work out. But he introduced

me to Tim and it just started a friendship. that has continued since then. Well, Tim's the greatest human being on the face of plan. He's fucking awesome. I mean, he's the one who told me I need to come here and hang and talk with you. I mean, Tim is, I mean,

I've been jumping with Tim for since 2000, no, 19, either 98 or 99? He's a sleeper. Like, meaning people would sleep on him and have no idea the places that he has been and the things that he has done. He's an incredible, and he's so humble and so,

and the single most professional human being I've ever met in my life. I've never seen anyone. I can't stand it actually how professionally is. I want to see some cracks in it. It's just like, dude, have an explosion of some kind. No, he is. I mean, it's funny because I wrote a whole chapter about him.

Like, there's a chapter about him in my book. That's how a pivotal human being he was in my life. And I love him as I just love him as a person. Like, period. I can't say enough good things about the dude. And what I love about him, too, is that he likes the anonymity of his job. He likes being a stunt guy because nobody knows who he is. You know?

And that's where, like, getting into this thing. of them literally forcing me to go do press because they had hired actors that people didn't really know that well. So they wanted the actual athletes to be the things that they used to promote the film. And I was like, yeah, but I don't do that, you know, anyway. How did it go? It was interesting. But what happened. I could see you frustrating reporters. Oh, dude, you know, I'd never, you know, I'd never had that much respect for actors. I always thought they were kind of like monkeys, but after going through what they go through, it's a hard job, dude. And And those press junkets, holy shit, man.

It's like eight hours of nonstop every 15 minutes. A new dude comes in. Same questions, though. Oh, and mind numbing. Like, I don't know how they don't lose their minds and just freak out. Because it was a disturbing experience. I didn't like it. But in any of it, we did it.

And as I was flying home, so to me, the most interesting part of that whole movie was on my flight home from this press junket, right? And we're in an airport. I'm in the airport with all of the heads of, like, Warner Brothers and, all the Alcon and all the production company. And one thing you never do when you're in a business setting is talk about religion. You just don't do that. Like you don't talk about religion. You don't talk about politics.

You know, you don't. Hey, hey, buddy. So what are your thoughts on abortion? Yeah, you just don't, but especially religion, right? You don't get into this. And for some reason, I was sitting next to the head of Warner Brother distribution. She's super lovely lady, really nice. She'd been drinking a little bit.

She's kind of tipsy. And I actually write this story in my book because I, I found it fascinating because it was the first time I ever had an actual real conversation with someone about death. Like what death actually is, you know? And it was fascinating because I'd always kind of thought this, but I'd never actually verbalized it before. And then when I was speaking with her, she started talking about like spirituality. And like, I'm not really religious, but I'm spiritual. And I'm just like, what do you mean by that?

Like, what does that mean? Like, what does that word mean to you? You know, and she kind of goes in, well, you know, you're the thing that's not part of your body, like the thing that goes on after you die. I'm like, really? So explain it to me. Like, what is this thing? Like, what is this thing? Nobody fucking knows, Jeb.

All right? Well, again, I think they do. That's the argument that I kind of came up with. Like, at that moment, I'm just like, really? I'm like, well, so explain to me what you're basically talking about. Soul, right? That's what you're trying to say. So explain to me.

to me, what is a soul? And she's just like, well, it's you. It's the essence of you. It's who you are. It's the thing that makes a moral decision or an immoral decision. So I'm like, okay, so let's say there's a God. Is it the thing that if you do bad things, he's going to judge you on? Or if you do good things, he'll judge you on that. And she's like, yeah, it's your essence. It's what will be judged after you die. And I was like, huh, let me ask you a question. I mean, what you really sounds like you're kind of describing is the human mind, like your thought process, the way you think. And she's like, yeah, but it's separate. It's separate from you. Like, it goes on after you die.

And I'm like, okay, I can actually logically prove that's just not true. Like, right now. Like, right here. I mean, and I can do it very easily. In psychology class when I was in college, they talk about a very famous case. Very famous. And it was a man who was working as a foreman. I forget his name.

But he was working as a foreman on a railroad. And an explosion happened, which sent a railroad tie through his skull, separating his frontal lobe from the back of his brain. Okay? He survived the accident, and they started studying him, because obviously no one had ever survived such a massive traumatic brain trauma. Yeah. He became a different human being. Oh, I bet.

Oh, we don't bet. You know. Yeah. Right? You know when you damage a person's brain, they become a different person. And he did. He became a, and they literally studied him until his death, and he became a different person making different choices. His whole life was different after that.

So did you damage his soul? I mean, think about that for a second. If I can damage your brain and change the decisions that you'll make in your life, right? Have I damaged your soul? Or does that not even exist at all? And all you're doing is using, interchanging the word soul for mind. Because that's what the brain does, right? Your brain is very complicated and creates a mind in order to process all of the information you're getting throughout your life.

So all these senses, your sight, smell, taste, hearing, touch, all of these senses, are your connection to the reality that exists outside of yourself, right? And your mind is trying to make sense of all of this information that's coming in. And your memories are how you keep track of it, right? So that's literally the brain's purpose. That's what it does. So if I can give you a lobotomy, right, and change the decisions that you make, the things that would morally be judged after your death,

then how can that exist, right? If damaging your brain changes it, don't you think killing it will change it quite a bit more? Right? And then so this concept, and she's just like, and it was funny because, you know, all of a sudden it started getting real heavy. Right. And she's, and when people, like, when things get like that really heavy, I noticed that there's like a kind of, a default statement that's made. That kind of is, okay, we're getting ending this conversation now, right? And the default conversation was, and she's like, well, nobody really knows what happens when you die.

Right. That's what she said. And that's the default. It's okay, I get that. Everyone just accepts that, right? But I decided, you know what? Not this time. Now, I'm going to actually have a, I'm going to, this conversation's continuing. I'm not done. And it's funny, because everyone, dude, think about this for a second. I'm around executives and every one of them are just looking at me like, like, what? Like, are you seriously having this conversation right now? Like, this is the craziest conversation. They were not expecting it. No. And what I did is I'm like, I want to do a thought experiment with you. And I just want you to just, you know, just don't just reject what I'm about to say. Just for a moment. Don't even think. I'm not even saying this is what I think or believe or anything.

I'm just, we're going to do a thought experiment where we're just going to think about something and just be open to the thought, right? Not rejecting it, not even accepting it. Just this idea. Okay. And the idea is that we know exactly what happens when we die. that actually, and of all the things we know, most things you are up for debate. Like most things, you know, it could be this, it could be that. We're still in the middle of who knows?

I'm going to make the argument that death may be the one thing. We actually know. Like, if there's a knowable thing, like if anything is knowable, death is the one thing that's knowable, right? It's going to happen. Well, let's look at language, right? Languages throughout history. Every single language has a word for it.

and the word is not ambiguous. Like the definition of what that word is, if you look up death in the dictionary, it's not ambiguous. It's not a question that maybe you hang out afterwards. It wouldn't serve society well if it was ambiguous. But that's the point, right? So when you say, well, nobody really knows, well, every language in history has had a word for it that describes it quite clearly, right? And then beyond that, would you pretend you? you don't know what happens when a fish dies?

Do people pretend they don't know what happens when cows die or when chickens die? No, everyone knows, you know what happens to a fish when it dies. It dies, you cut it up, you cook it, you eat it, its energy becomes part of you for a little while. You poop it out, then it becomes energy for bugs and trees and plants. You know, it's this cycle that we know. We don't. But what about it's soul, Jeff? But again, that's kind of the whole point, right?

That that word, I think, is a word that was developed. by people terrified of death. It makes it easier to accept. This is the thing. We've known what death is since the time of Neanderthal. We know that Neanderthal buried their dead, meaning they understood death. They understood that their dead got eaten by things.

They didn't like that, so they tried to prevent that from happening, right? And I think what happens is people have known what death is for a very long time and don't like what they know. And because they don't like what they know, they come up with elaborate fairy tales. to make themselves feel better about it. And we've come up with tens of thousands of these fairy tales

to make ourselves feel better about what we already know. We're trying desperately to convince ourselves it's something different. But I'm going to tell you what death is and it's not going to surprise you. You know, I write about this in my book, but this is something when I tell us you, you're going to be like, yeah, no shit. I mean, that's what we know. It's not even a question. You know, when you die, you melt right back into the universe from where you came

and you release from consciousness. I mean, there you go. It's pretty straightforward. It's pretty simple. And you know what's even more amazing about that statement? It's more incredible than any made-up nonsense you could ever tell yourself, right? It's kind of like when people used to say that, oh, the sun is a firefly that flew too high into the sky, right? Which is pretty sweet, though.

Yeah. As far as stories go, that's a fucking good one. But is it more impressive than the fact that it's a nuclear furnace, right? Definitely not more impressive. That's a more boring story. But is it? I think the reality of what the sun actually is is way more impressive

than any of the made-up fairy tales we ever said about it, right? And I think the reality, and this is another thing. Like, I have a lot of people, you know, throughout my life. And it's a big part of my book, actually, from you reading it, you know,

because I've dated religious people and I've been around religious people. You are. I mean, a lot of people are very religiously. Yeah, they're going to come in and out of your life. They're coming out of your life all the time. And you have conversations. Like, because you're, it's fascinating.

You know, you want to hear their side, they want to hear your side. And I'm always open to, like, have these conversations because I like them. I think it's fun to think, right? To have these thought experiments, to have these kind of ideas, you know, because that's how you grow and learn, you know. But in any event, I find it, I think I lost my track of thought. You were talking about basically the fairy tales that we tell each other. Oh, just how the realities are just so much more beautiful than the fantasies that people make up to try to make themselves feel better. And what begs a better second question, too, is would it change people's behavior if they were forced to confront the objective reality versus the fairy tale?

Because look at people, and I'm sure everybody in this room knows somebody who, or maybe they've had it themselves, the near-death experience. It'll reframe the way you make decisions. It'll reframe your value system. I think the fairy tale actually elicits shittier behavior than confronting the objective reality. Like my theory on life, and I'm not recommending anybody follow this theory, is that it's meant to be lived, not saved up. I say that because I think I fall in line with what you feel about death as well, too. And I've been around, unfortunately, more than probably people's fair share of death. And I've been confronted with it, both in the base jumping world, skydiving world, and then in my previous job.

And like, fuck, man, I need to pack it in. Well, and that is the thing. Once, like I have, and that's where I was going with this. If I've had people say, well, how can you do what you do thinking that there's nothing after you die? Like, how could you possibly do such dangerous things when you know that it's over? And I'm all, that's exactly how I can do such dangerous things. Yeah. Because I understand that my life is limited.

I only have a very short period of time to exist. And I need to do what I can with that little limited time that I get. Well, tomorrow's not promised to you whether you're a base jumper or not. No. And it's the thing, we know we're alive right now. Like if you go through philosophy, right, like Descartes, I think therefore I am, this idea that you exist. That's the only thing you can be certain of. You can be certain of your own existence.

You can't even be certain of my existence. I mean, I'm pretty sure, but I mean, I'll leave it. I'll leave like 1% on the table for you. Exactly. There's always a chance that maybe I don't. Maybe you're dreaming right now in bed. Oh, the simulation theory. Yes, exactly.

That's a rabbit hole. But exactly. But the concept is, is the only thing you can be absolutely certain of by Descartes, you know, like his whole search for certainty. philosophy is that you know of your own existence, right? Everything else is up for whatever. But this idea that you know that you exist, you know you're here right now. So don't throw that little bit of time you have away

for something that's dubious at best. I mean, dubious. And this concept that, you know, oh, your life has no meaning if you don't believe. It's like the opposite. It gives your life more meaning. It's easier to believe that somebody else has their hand on the wheel than to take ownership of driving your own path.

Exactly. And making your own decisions and owning your mistakes. That's why I think the fairy tales elicit. I think they're more dangerous than the objective reality. But they're easier. It's like the spoonful of sugar. Yeah. They're easier to go down.

Well, it's nice to blame the devil. It's nice to blame demons. It's nice to blame everybody other than yourself. Exactly. It's nice to blame everything. It's fucking your fault and your fault. Definitely not your fault. Your fault.

Yeah, exactly. It's much easier. And, you know, another thing I've noticed to is, unfortunately, I've been to quite a few funerals, right? Same. And the people who are the most religious, or say they are, usually tend to take death the worst. Which always fascinates me, because I'm like, if you truly believe what you say you believe, then this person's not dead. They've moved on to a better place. Yeah, you're going to go hang out with them when you die.

Unless you know they did gnarly shit. And you're like, maybe they went down, not up. I think it's more of the fact that they know it's not true. And I think that they're struggling very hard to convince themselves it is. And that's the thing is I, and this was my argument with this lady, that you know, I'm not saying I know. Yeah. I'm saying, you know. You're very well aware of what death is.

You know what it is. And you do not like what you know. And because you do not like what you know, you have to try to convince yourself at something different. And for me, that was a very fascinating conversation. And it was the first time I ever verbalized something that I had been thinking for quite some time. And, you know, I have watched a lot of people die. And that's one thing. But I've also experienced death myself.

I've died twice where I've flatlined and I had stopped breathing and I was gone. And I came back. And, you know, I froze to death when I was 10 and I drowned when I was 16. and you know we're going to have to touch on those slightly deeper here in a second but Michael's just over like what the fuck but there's nothing

there's actually nothing that deep about them because you know what I learned from them is that there was nothing right and it's weird because you didn't have a crazy out of body experience that some people talk about no I'll get into that too

because I think that's all a bunch of nonsense but I will say it's the brain doing weird shit. You have a preconceived idea of what death is and you're going to show yourself that picture before you die. You're having a very elaborate dream that your brain is trying to give you to make you feel more comfortable as it's ending. Which actually makes sense if you think about it. That's what the brain would do to ease the transition. And it's the same thing with it dropping all of the adrenaline and endorphins and everything to kind of make you calm and feel and you feel

I mean, I'm going to be honest, death feels good. It actually, the not the first time I've heard that actually from people who have had near death experiences well there there's near death and then there's death right near death hurts like a motherfucker like i've had a lot of near death experiences where you're just in pain and it's suffering and it hurts bad and you're feeling pain and and most death is kind of like that too right you when i froze freezing was very painful in the beginning like i didn't feel like i was cold i felt like i was burning it felt like burning needles were penetrating my skin i actually felt like i was on fire and my first reaction was to take my clothes off i was trying to they find a lot of People totally nude who have frozen to death.

You try to take your clothes off. And the only reason I take my clothes off is my friends wouldn't let me. Yeah, we were a little 10-year-olds, you know. And I was but burning, burning, burning. And then all of a sudden the burning goes away and then it becomes numb. And then all of a sudden you become warm. Uphoric almost. It's this warm feeling overtakes you and it feels good.

And then all of a sudden I was laying down. I could no longer walk and they were dragging me. These two little 10-year-old kids dragging me over a mile and a half back to my house. And as they're dragging me, I remember just like kind of like, everything got really quiet and very peaceful. And then all of a sudden, everything just started getting dark. And then I was gone. And what's fascinating is that from going down to coming back out, that time frame doesn't exist.

It's not like a dream. Like when you go to sleep and you wake up and you know time, there's been time. Yeah. It's not like that. For me, it wasn't. It was what happened before and what happened after fold over each other. How long were you out for? I don't know.

There's no way. There's, it was, that one was quite a long time. But, you know, freezing, you can be down for a lot longer. Oh, fuck you. They pull people back from, like, hours. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, I don't know my, my, I don't know how, what part of the, walk my friend where I lost consciousness. I don't know what part I got woken up.

I don't, I don't, I don't know any of it. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and you see, I don't believe anyone who has a really complicated near-death story. When they start telling you, like, all these really crazy details, bullshit. You've been knocked out. when you see somebody come back from being knocked out or if you see someone die and you see them, I've seen it. I've watched people die and then be revived.

And you want to know their first response, the number one responses, where am I? What's going on? They don't know what day it is. Most of the time they don't even know their own name. Yeah, what happened. Yeah, they don't know what happened.

So all of a sudden, an hour later, blue light, like white lights and tunnels. And you're like, dude, you're full of shit. You're full of shit. You didn't remember what your name was. Now all of a sudden you remember all these details? Come on. Let's be serious.

You want to own the worst time to trust a person's memory when they've just had a traumatic experience happen. If you get robbed, if someone runs in and steals your shit, try to tell a cop what that person looked like. Oh, I'd be super good at that. I'd be like, that dead guy right there trying to steal my shit. Yeah, he's dead now and that's, he looks just like that. Why shouldn't I shoot him 17 times?

That's what my magazine holds. Like, don't judge me. But that I agree with you. But that's the point, right? When you go through a traumatic experience, your brain, memory doesn't work very well. So the more detailed... There's a reason why there's limits in what they'll allow in a court of law. Exactly.

But again, my point is every time I've ever seen someone either get knocked, like gotten knocked out or come back from a near death experience, like, I'm not going to say near death, death experience. Near death is different for me. Like there's death experiences and near death experience. I've had, I can't even count near death experiences. I've had more of those than I can count. But actual death experiences are a little different, right?

because your brain goes through a different process and your brain shuts down. And it's your brain turning off. And that sensation of the brain turning off is very powerful. And it's quite euphoric, at least from what I can remember, right? And that's the thing is I always have to be very careful when I talk about my memories of it because I can't be sure what memories are real and what memories are from me telling the story again. Yeah, your brain fill in the blanks in. And you do.

You fill in blanks because people don't like not knowing stuff, right? they're in a constant process of trying to like fill in those blanks with whatever you know and so i can't really trust my memory especially of the drowning one the drowning one i don't trust anything that's why when i wrote it in my book i just straight up said i have told this story different ways over many years i am not really sure what happened you know i cannot because my brain turned off yeah i i can't all i kind of can remember is that things that i thought happened before ended up happening after and things that I thought had happened after ended up happening before and and my brain that that time it literally is gone like there is no time like there's nothing so

again I have a real anytime I hear someone tell ghost stories or really intricate like like near death experience stories I'm always like I take it with a grain of salt always and I and I don't necessarily believe anything anyone says. And I don't even think they're lying. I think that they believe, they remember it this way because memory is, memory moves, memory changes. Your memories

are not perfect records, you know, and once you understand that, once you want, when you grasp that, and I really get into these these like, I find ghost stories fascinating, right? I have a lot of friends who've seen a lot of ghosts. You have some weird friends. I have very weird friends. I mean,

you know, you meet people. People believe in ghosts. And I always find it fascinating when somebody tells you a ghost star, right? They've seen a ghost or something weird happen they can't explain. Well, that's what it always is. But, you know, they, okay, I'll do a good one. I love this one. So I had a manager many years ago. I won't even say her name, but she was a wonderful person.

I loved her lot. She's great. And one day she starts telling me, she's like, oh, Jeb, I was like you. I didn't believe a ghost. But I didn't tell one. I'm like, really? You saw a ghost. I can do tell.

I am. you have piqued my interest. I would love to hear this story. Please explain to me. So she goes to this really elaborate tale of how she was a chaperone for little kids, like teenagers, like 15 to like 17. And she lived in Australia at the time.

They were going on a trip to Italy for like some whatever school trip thing. Fucking lucky kids. I know, that's what I said. But they were going on some field trip thing to Italy. Anyway, she was the chaperone. And I think there was like 10 kids. Like it wasn't a big, it wasn't a big group, but it was 10 kids.

Anyways, they went to this place. And as they were checking it, the person checking them out, he's like, well, I need to let you guys know. Our facility is haunted. So you might hear some things and blah, blah, blah. And she's just like, yeah, yeah, whatever. At least it's what she's saying. Yeah. I think steeply she kind of believed back then too.

But anyways, she says she didn't believe and that she was kind of. Well, if they leave with that, it's preconditioning as well. Exactly. It's pre-conditioning. You're planting, right, seeds. But anyways, so she's saying she just doesn't believe. them and she's like whatever they have their first night the next morning they're having breakfast and a few of the girls are talking about these little weird experiences they were having the night

before and she's just like oh oh stop trying to scare the other girls that's not true blah blah blah right this is what she's telling you i'm like okay interesting she said she said but that night she's like i was in bed and she said right as i was going to sleep all of a sudden i became paralyzed and i couldn't move and i saw this apparition of a woman in a dress come through the wall and come over the top of me. And as she got over the top of me, I started screaming, and then I got up and she was gone.

Yes, because she woke up. And I'm like, okay. And you know, and she, I'm not trying to be mean. I'm like, okay, that's, that's cool. I mean, that's, yeah, I was an experience. And she believed it was a ghost.

Yeah. I'm all, have you ever heard of, um, um, sleep apnea or, um, basically something called the dark shadow. Have you ever heard of sleep apnea? Not the dark shadow. Okay.

So there, there's, there's this thing. It's called sleep. Actually, sleep paralysis is really what we're talking about. So sleep paralysis is when you go to sleep, your brain releases a hormone that paralyzes you. Yeah, so you can rest and recover, right? And so that you don't act out dreams. So the reason why when you're dreaming about going for a jog, you don't jump up out of bed and go for a jog, is because this thing paralyzes you and keeps you from doing. Now, some people, actually this doesn't work properly and they do jump up and go for a jog. It's like Michael when he sleeps. He's like, don't touch me like that.

So some people, it's not working properly and it makes them sleepwalk and do don't touch me like that. Yeah. But so what happens is sleep paralysis is a very real thing that happens to people. And for normal people who don't have a problem, what can sometimes occur is as you're falling asleep, the hormone releases while you're still awake. And when that happens, it's a terrifying experience for people because they become paralyzed. Now, you're just on the edge of dreaming. So now all of a sudden, if you've been told, oh, there's ghosts here, right? Well, now all of a sudden, this ghost apparition comes in.

You have this experience. And what tells you it's sleep apnea as she's paralyzed, she can't move. The instant she finally freaks out and sits up, it's gone. Right? This all tells you sleep apnea is probably very realistic. So I explain sleep, not sleep apnea, sleep paralysis. two different things. Sleep paralysis.

So anyways, I explain sleep paralysis to her. And then I'm like, and now I want to explain something else to you. Have you ever heard of Octum's Razor? And she's like, no. I'm all,

well, it's a philosophical concept. And the way Octum's Razor works or it's the simplest explanation for things is usually the correct one. Not always, but usually. And a great way of explaining like how,

like showing this in a real world situation. Imagine there's a crop circle. Okay. And in this crop circle, You're given three possible explanations. One, it's kids with string and board going out there and stomping it down, making a crop circle. Which is the correct answer, people. Two, it's the government testing some new form of technology.

Yep. Three, it's aliens from another world. Definitely three. Okay. So using Octum's Razor, what's the most likely explanation? Yeah, it's the kids with, it's like, wow, all these concentric circles, they just keep appearing. Yeah. Yeah.

So that's true. Now let's say you're given more information. Now let's say that none of the stocks are broken and they're radioactive, right? There's actual radiation inside these crop circles. Of the three explanations, what's the most likely? I still say the kids and they had found some radioactive shit. Well, then it's government, right? Government testing some new form of technology.

Probably. Because it's unlikely that they'd get radioactive materials. It's sweet if they did. It would be. But again, that's how Oxfam's Razor works. So it's a way of logically deducing the most likely answer. And most of the time, you can get there with that. Right?

So I explained these concepts to her, and I said, so now, using Octum's Razor, what's more likely that happened to you? Someone came back from the dead and decided to haunt you, haunt you and mess with you because they've got nothing better to do. Or you were having sleep paralysis, and someone had planted this idea in your head, and you basically had a waking dream.

And she's just like, yeah. I mean, because, but again, people want to believe. They want to. And there's also another thing I ask people. Like whenever somebody tells me, like, really outrageous ghost story, this is my number one favorite question to ask. Have you ever used a psychedelic drug?

And you want to know what the number one answer is? Probably yes. What does that have to do with anything? And you're like, well. Could be some residual. The thing is, is, you know, when you use psychedelics, it blurs your line between dream and reality. Intentionally, right?

It's part of the mechanism? That's what you're literally doing on purpose. You're blurring the line between dream and reality. And once you do that, and this is the thing, dreams, anything is possible. Anything can be real. You can fly. You can walk through walls. You can create your own worlds.

Dead people are back from the dead. I mean, you pick whatever you want, right? In a dream, anything can happen. So once you start bringing that into the real world, all of a sudden, you know, things can get complicated for you. You know? You get blurry real fast. Very blurry, very fast. And that's why, you know, in my book,

I talk a lot about why I don't use drugs of any kind. Yeah. And that's why. I mean, because I like my reality and my whole world is based on trying to experience reality for what it actually is. And I think that's one of the reasons why I'm so drawn to things like base jumping or extreme activities that you do on purpose, right? My kind of concept, because I always, throughout my life, I've gotten this.

you're just a heroin addict, right? They try to, try to parallel you with a drug addict. Like, oh, you just are adrenaline junkie, right? You're just doing this for the adrenaline. And I'm always like, actually, I don't like adrenaline. I don't like the way adrenaline feels. I am not a sensation-seeking person. When I was in college, I had a teacher who thought I was a type T personality

and I was an obvious sensation-seeker. And she actually, because of what, you know, I was into extreme sports and stuff, she actually did a like a test for the whole class just to see how many type ts do we have in this class and when i took the test i came out as not a type t i actually came out as neutral because there are a lot of things where i am very risk i'm not risk adverse i like to take risks but there's certain things like for instance when it came to physical risk like skydiving base jumping shark diving doing dangerous things i was very high but when it came to sensation seeking type behavior like

taking drugs, having sex with zillions of women, like, you know, drinking tons of alcohol, things that give you like a quick sensation. I was at the bottom of the spectrum, which made me even, which is weird. So I didn't come back type T. And I've never, I've always kind of looked at it like this. I think of myself, and again, I'm not trying to compare myself to astronauts because what they do is obviously more important for human society and just everything. What they do is huge. But I like their mindset, right?

You would never call an astronaut going to the moon an adrenaline junkie ever do they get adrenaline from doing it Oh fuck you absolutely is that why they're doing it no no the adrenaline's a negative Byproduct you know that is not why they're doing they have a mission that they're trying to accomplish and their goal is to accomplish that mission in the safest way They possibly can and get home right if they could do it without any adrenaline They would yeah period and and I see myself in a very similar way I have these very intricate projects and things I'm trying to accomplish. And my goal is to accomplish them in the safest way I possibly can and come home. That's it.

I am not going. The adrenaline I do not enjoy. I do not like the way it makes me feel. It makes me feel sick. I actually really dislike it. But the reason why I'm going there is because, you know, people try to compare, you know, extreme sports athletes to, you know, drug addicts. And I always say this.

I actually think a heroin addict is the exact opposite of an extreme sports athlete. I think people who use drugs, especially like heroin, particularly, are trying to disconnect from the reality in which they live. I would agree with that. They're experiencing pain, whether it be physical or emotional. And they're trying, they do not like the reality in which they are. So they're taking this drug to detach, disconnect, try to somehow escape the suffering that they're going through, right?

They're looking for a way out. Or even most psychedelics, they're trying to change their perception of reality, change what's going on inside of them. They want to fix something that they feel is wrong, right? Most people who use drugs, they are trying to change their reality in some way, right? That's how I see it. I'd say the same with alcohol, too, which I mean, obviously can be classified as a drug as well. And I do classified as drugs.

That's why I don't do it. But in any event, I see extreme activity as the opposite of that. So the way I'll describe it is this. We have developed senses for billions of years. You know, sight, smell, taste, hearing, touch. Not just human beings, but all living things. Any living thing that has developed senses, they've developed those senses for one purpose

to experience the reality that exists outside of themselves. Okay? That's why you have senses. So that you're not just this piece of meat trapped in a skull, right? It's your ability to interact with the reality that exists outside of yourself. Right. So our goal, and I think this is the meaning of life, period. This is the point of existing.

The reason we're here, the reason answer here, flies, bugs, dolphins, everything, is to experience this, the reality, right? And I think when a person decides to do something that could potentially kill them, right? when you make a decision to do something that's so dangerous that the outcome could potentially be the end of your existence. When you make that choice, something very special happens to you. Your mind understands how crucial and how important the next few moments are. So what it does is it releases everything. It gives you all adrenaline, all endorphins, everything your body needs to operate.

at its absolute maximum ability, right? So all of a sudden your senses become heightened. You see better, smell better, touch, everything. You can feel the air touching you, right? And this is you connecting to the reality that exists outside of yourself in the most pure, real, unfiltered way possible, right? And so for me, I see people who decide to do dangerous things on purpose, as people trying to connect to the reality in which they live,

which is the exact opposite of a person using drugs. I like that explanation. Makes sense. Well, and I think that's what draws people to it. And that's why a person is willing. Because, you know, we've been doing WWL World Wingsuit League with all the best wingsuit pilots for eight years now before the pandemic, right? And we would ask them all, like, why do you do this?

Like, what, you know, and the number one, answers because it's fun like that's the number one thing you hear people say and I'm always like you didn't answer the question it's the easiest answer but it's the least descriptive well it's not it's not answer it you what you're saying lots of things what makes it fun right you're describing a feeling a sensation why is it giving you that feeling and that sensation what about this like why are you willing to sacrifice potentially sacrifice your life for this there are a lot of things in life that are fun that won't kill you right so what is it about

this thing, right? What is it about this experience that you're willing to literally sacrifice your life for? You know, and I think a lot of people don't think in those kind of terms, you know, they're fine with it being fun. They don't need an explanation for why. So they're just cool with answering it like that. But you can tell there's something more, right? There's something deeper. If there wasn't something deeper, then you wouldn't be doing this. It's not worth dying for. Nothing is worth dying for, right? So what is it? And I, and I think, think that I for me anyways that's why I continue right because I am trying to experience reality in the most pure form possible and this gives me the ability to do that there are many

cultures like they call it the now they call it flow state they call it time distortion there's many different names for this moment right where you become absolutely connected to what's happening at the moment at that exact instant right and that feeling of being completely connected is the point of living. Like that's the entire point of existing, right? And I, and I, it's a, it's a fascinating thing because I think base jumping and proximity flying and, and those are the two things that have allowed me to almost cheat myself to that spot instantly, right? Most of, I mean, hell, Buddhist monks will sit in a temple for 60 years, just meditating, trying to get to that moment.

And some of them never do, you know. And all of a sudden, here you are standing on the edge of a 5,000 foot cliff. And boom, you are there. I mean, yesterday means nothing. Tomorrow doesn't matter. The only thing that exists is the next couple seconds. And you know, and you can't fake it. There's no pretending

it. You know, like, you can put on VR goggles all you want and maybe get a little woozy, but you're not getting there, you know? But I do like the VR goggles where people are doing there on the balancing beam, and they jump off and, like, head into TVs. Yeah, that's funny. So, totally aside, but I, it's,

It's one of my favorite things to watch. Watching new people where VR, like, when a person that has worn VR goggles and you put them on for the first time. They fucking sprint into a wall because they think the zombie is real chasing them? I got it. It is fun to watch. And even when it's not that way, even when it's just like, even watching a base jump or something, right? They're at heights and you just see them like, like. And you're just like, really?

Dude, you're fine. You're on the ground. But it is, it's fascinating to witness. It is. But again, you know what I've noticed? This comes into this kind of concept of desensitization, right? I think a lot of the reasons why you're capable of doing what you've done throughout your life is because you went through training that helped desensitize you and basically prepare you for doing what you do. You know, like when I...

It was incremental stress introduction that led to, I don't like the word inoculation because I don't know if you can totally inoculate, but it provides coping mechanisms and exposure to it. And people, what I don't think they understand is, so the basic pipeline is six months, but then you were learning throughout your career. continuing to go to courses, and they don't give you a bolus up front. It's layer after layer after layer after layer, which can become quite a bit over time. And it does help. And it has application well outside of the military sphere. Because it goes into life. But again, I use the word desensitization.

And the reason why I use desensitization is because I think, you know, a lot of people use that word in almost a negative sense. Like they're all the desensitization of America, right? That's a very common thing that you'll hear. But do you remember when the Exorcist came out? in the 70s I was born in the 70s so no but I know the movie

Did you ever watch footage of like the phenomenon that occurred when that movie came out? No dude people were losing their minds I mean literally people About what The demonic possession

They were passing out in movie theaters People were having to be carried out on stretchers I mean it was crazy Are you serious? Super serious people lost their minds And what happened is Basically what that says to me Is people were a bunch of pussies

I was gonna say some bitch ass bitches I mean that's the point right You've got a bunch of people who are terrified of special effects, bad storytelling, and some horrible makeup, right? If you would have launched that movie right now, people would laugh. Yeah. Like you, it would be like a joke, right? Because people have become so understanding of movies and makeup and they become desensitized to it. Which a lot of people say it like is a bad thing.

I think it's a good thing. What do you prefer? A person who's so terrified of a movie they pass out? Or a person who watches and goes, eh, the special effects are really aren't that? great. I'll take that person, but then I need them to take another step and actually challenge themselves in real life so they can desensitize themselves to the normal stressors of life that absolutely fucking crush some people. Oh yeah. Well, that's kind of where I'm going with this kind of idea. So base jumping, for instance, you know, you don't just start doing a double reverse

flip to the center of your rifle tower. I mean, some people do. You die. I'm not saying they lived. Yeah, yeah. You'll, you die if that's what you do, but that's the point, right? You don't start there. You start with a tandem skydive. Yeah. And for most people, when you're, when you're starting out, a tandem skydive takes your fear level about as high as it can go. If not past the threshold for most. If they hadn't done anything else. Like if you've been in the military and seen real shit, probably not as bad. But you'd be surprised.

I've taken some military guys for their first tandem. Let me just say, they lost their collective fucking marbles. But you're supposed to. Yeah. That's the point of it, right? A tandem is supposed to take you to the edge. And then, you know, you go through your AFF course and their first jump is super scary, then your second jump.

And you kind of have this bell curve, right? where it gets scary, scary, scary, scary, scary, takes your point, and then all of a sudden starts tapering off. You start learning and actually it eventually becomes fun, right? It's become something you just do with your buddies, doing it on a weekend. I mean, I don't, my heart rate doesn't change when I skydiving. Skydiving, it really doesn't, yeah.

No, skydiving, you can get to a point in skydiving where it's like going to the going. You know, you get through like your first malfunction, maybe your second, you realize that gear's going to work. I'm like, this is going to be okay. Yeah, and you can get there with skydiving. I see skydiving on part. with like riding a motorcycle. I think they're pretty similar in danger,

pretty similar in fatality rates based on ratios, same thing with injuries. You know, they're very similar in their risk factor. Base jumping is different. Different story. I would say base jumping, it never gets better.

Like, I mean, unless the person becomes totally delusional about what they're doing, which I've seen, I've seen a few people who get kind of, you know, in a place where it's all sunshine of rainbows

and they can't get hurt, and as long as they follow these very specific things, they'll be fine. And you'll see people get to a point where they're almost too comfortable. We're like, you really shouldn't be this comfortable doing what you're doing. Like, this is not that safe, and you really do need to take it more seriously. And that's where I'm recently becoming, because, you know, I hate to say this,

but I see myself in these people, right? Your earlier self? Yes. Or your current self? No, no, no, no, my earlier self. So when I started, I was the rusher, right? I wanted to learn how to, I didn't even want to skydive. I just wanted a base jump.

I had skydiving. You were an early adopter of people in this modern. Oh yeah, just being a complete lunatic dumbass. And I was. I was stupid, you know, and I did, you know, the bare minimum, like, what's the minimum amount of jumps I have to do? I did 150 skydives. And then I started my, I went through a base jumping course.

At least I went through a course. Yep. With Apex base. And I went through their course. And then I went to. You were up at the bridge at NorCal, weren't you? Actually, my very, actually, my very, actually, my first jumps were out of a hot air balloon.

Because that was the only leg way that you could legally do a course. So I was my first jumps out of a hot air balloon. And then I was on my own. And my very first real. jump was Auburn Bridge. Yep. In complete pitch blackness during a new moon at 2 a.m. By myself.

I had my buddy who was just driving for me. And I write that in my book. Yeah, super safe. Another bridge that fucking Rigby heroed and we just went off the back of the goddamn vehicle on. That's right. It's like base jumping is illegal until you write us a check this big. And then, yes, you can stand in the back of a car and we'll launch it.

That's what's great about movies. And now that's the difference between my life, right? So I started out as like this kind of... Oh, you were abandoned. motherfucker. Super Bandit. I love that kind of jumping. I love jumping without permission.

I love that gray area where the law, is it legal? You know, and I enjoyed that. The answer was no. Just see. It was fucking no. You know, honestly. There's a reason hotel room windows don't open all the way, Jeb. Yeah, I know.

Let's put this way. I've been arrested in four countries. And the worst I ever got was a $16 fine for mischurch. So I got a $2 fine for obstruction of traffic in South Africa. And then everyone else... $2. $2. Okay.

Well, it was like, I think it was like 30 African Rann or something, but South African Ramp. But it was like equal two bucks at the time. So, yeah. You know, was it illegal. Yes. Yes, it was. Well, I get, I mean, I did diverse 50s in the Rifle Tower. Yeah.

And they arrested me. And they took me in and we kind of talked for like a couple hours. And they couldn't charge me with anything. Because you went the correct way. You just owned it and they realized what exactly in the criminal statute are they going to charge you with. Yeah, nothing. And that was what I loved. I loved that.

Like, I loved finding out what the laws actually were and they're not breaking any of them. Then there's Vegas where you're a felon. It wasn't when I did it. I know. Maybe that's a reason they changed the law. Well, they changed the law 20 years later, so it couldn't have been just me. Now could it have. But actually, actually, actually, actually.

Actually, we kind of know who it was. We do, actually. But let's just say it was definitely illegal when you try. tried to do the Empire State Building. No, actually, that wasn't either. Shut the fuck up. No, it wasn't. That's what was so funny is actually when I went for Empire...

How much can you talk about that? Or are you still... I can't talk about it at all. But I will say this, at the time that I went for it, it was 100% legal. Okay. I didn't get arrested for base jumping, because I didn't actually even jump. It was reckless endangerment based on something else. You were on the other side.

Didn't you get cuffed to the rail, which is actually far more dangerous than them just letting you do the jump. Allegedly, people can Google it. You can Google it and see pictures and video, and it was not, it wasn't my, it wasn't my, it wasn't my crowning achievement, that's for sure. Let me, let me, I will say this, I'll say this. I was wrong. I shouldn't have been doing what I did.

I was testing something that shouldn't have been tested. I was pushing in an area that wasn't okay. I understand now as an adult, because I was a child. I was a child. Like I had a child's brain. How old were you when you tried that? It's like 30, I think. I was in 2006.

So I was a 30-year-old kid. Like my brain was not fully formed. And I wasn't thinking clearly. And I was wrong. And it's funny because it took a long time for me to realize how wrong I was. Because, you know, if somebody came to my house and were like, I want to jump off your roof and I'm like, no. And then they went for it anyways. I'd be pretty pissed off too.

I wouldn't because I live in a single story. It's like, fucking go ahead. Yeah, knock yourself out. But then they sued. you, right? And then you're now you're pissed. Then I'd have a problem. So, but that's, that's the point, right? So they, they had a right to say no to me. Yeah. And, and I should not have pushed then, you know, and that was my fault. And, and I was wrong. And I understand that now. And since then, it's really interesting because that taught me the important lesson, right? I, up until that point, I was kind of a,

I don't know, outlaws the right word, but I was definitely operating in a gray area that was not necessarily good for society, right? It wasn't a good social thing. Some people are drawn to the sport or activity because of that as well, though. Some are, but you can do it in a more, like I was doing it. It's one thing when you're jumping at 2 o'clock in the morning.

There's no people around. You're by yourself. You're not hurting anyone. You're not causing traffic. Yeah, the only person you're going to hurt is yourself. You're not impacting other people. And I'm okay with that. That's fine. I'm not even talking about that. I was jumping during rush hour traffic, downtown New York. I mean, come on.

Let's be real. I mean, it was not okay. And I deserved what I got. I got punished and I deserved the punishment that I received. And I actually feel like the system was very fair with how they went about it and what they did. And I have always been very fortunate with the police. The police have always been very professional with me. They've always been very nice to me.

I have never had a police officer be anything. but good. And it was weird because especially Empire, I deserved to have someone stomp on me. Like they should have been pissed off. Like I, now looking back, that was a dushy move. And honestly, they should have been pissed. And they weren't.

The NYPD were so nice to me that it was almost surrealistic. Really? It was crazy. They were so nice. And one of the cops actually who was pulling me out of the bill, He's had me handcuffed and he's walking with me. And he said, I mean, I'm not going to say much more than this. Yeah.

But because this really isn't about empire. This is more about just the cops and how nice they were. And he thanked me. He actually said, thank you so much. And I'm like, for what? Like, what are you talking about? He's just like, dude. He didn't say dude.

But he's like, this was one of the most interesting days of work I've ever had. He's on, I got to say, busting you is so much more fun than busting crackheads. I mean, I'll give it to him. It was definitely an atypical day, I'm sure, on his beat. It was so, dude, how they treated me was, again, it was surrealistic. And my little time in jail, I was in, like, they put me in the tombs. I don't know if you know what those are. So if you get busted in Manhattan, they put you in these cells underneath the courthouse,

and they call them the tombs. And they are, they have like maybe, I don't know, 12. rooms of the size of this that are all, you know, cages for people and they put everyone in one cage, right? So, and then as that cage gets full, they then fill the next cage and so on. When I got there, I think

four of the cages were full, and they put me in one that there was, dude, imagine a room this size with 40 people in it. Oh, shit. No, no, it's, it's, there's no, the benches are covered, people are sitting on the toilet, you're sitting every square inches covered by a person, right?

And I was sitting on the ground and I'm like, wow, this is really quite remarkable how, like, packed this place is, you know? And everyone's in there, whether you were sleeping on a sidewalk or you just murdered somebody. This is where you are. Everyone's in the same cell together, right? So everyone from the most gnarly dude on the planet to, like, the most chill, like this dude was, like ordering a pizza and was riding his bike on the sidewalk, they're in here, right? And when I was sitting there, I was just kind of like, wow, this is really uncool. Like this is not how I saw my night going. Like this is just not how I was expecting this to happen, you know.

And I'm sitting there and I'll, you just, I kept my head down. I just try not make eye contact with anyone. You just don't want to like make a scene of yourself. You just don't want people looking at you. You know, you just want to be. And I'm sitting there and just cockroaches are crawling on me and I'm flicking cockroaches off. And it was, dude, the floor is covered in every. Stuff.

Vomit and urine and just grow. It was, dude, it was gnarled. I'm like, this is third world style shit. Like I couldn't believe. I'm all. I can see they don't want people to want to be here. you know that's so they're making it purposely unpleasant and the lights are on 24 hours a day there's no clocks you have no idea what time it is you have no idea how long you've been there so you have like this time

deprivation thing and i was seeing there for i don't know how long and all of a sudden a cop comes up to the bars and he's got something in his hand he's like hey jeb and i'm like what he's like come here i'm like okay so i walk up the bars and he hands something to the bars to me and i open it and it's the front page of i think the new york post and it said jumping jerk and it was a photograph of me hanging off the impartial. I was just like, I'm like, oh no. So then I read the article, and as I'm reading the article, I read the part where I'm like, oh, guys, I had a TV show on Discovery called Stunchunkies.

And I read this one part where I'm like, oh, I just got fired. Like they literally, the person who wrote this article just got me fired, like right now. Yeah. Because they said I was doing it for the show, which I'm like, how can you write that? Like that's not first not true And second off I just got fired Like literally I just got fired for my job

It doesn't have to be true to be in papers That's pretty true That's true that that's true But in any event I was like Oh no I just got fired And I'm like oh well okay So you know and I put it down And it starts

Other people start grabbing it and reading it And whatever So a couple hours goes by Or who knows how long But a period of time And all of a sudden Four dudes show up Who are the scariest human beings

ever seen in my life. And one of the guys, he's like six foot seven. He's like black, like dark in a way that I, I've never quite seen how dark. And he had white eyes. They had no, like he must have been wearing contacts to make his eyes completely white, right? Maybe he was a ghost. I maybe. All I know is he had dreads. And he looked like, he looked like the gnarliest person I've ever seen. I've never seen anything quite like him. Like he was scary on a level that was very real. And when they opened the door, the bench cleared. Like everyone got off the bench. So he'd obviously been there before. And him and his group of dudes all sat on the bench. They were gang members of some kind, for sure. And they looked terrifying. And I'm just saying there like, you know, my head down just like, oh no, you know,

like I don't want anyone looking at me, you know, just, you know, and he turned out the paper was sitting right next to him. So he picks it up and he's just like kind of looking at it. And then he looks at me and then he looks back of the paper and he keeps on reading. And he looks at me again. And then like he finishes what he's reading. And he's like, is all, is this you? And I'm like, I'm like, yeah. And all of a sudden his whole like everything changes. And he's like, holy shit. You're crazy. He's like, he's all, this is the craziest person's whole goddamn cell. He's like, he's all, I've been the top in person. I'm almost shit my pants. It's like, what's wrong with you?

Like, and he starts just going off. And I'm like, I'm like, oh my God. It was, it was bizarre. Like the kind of like, he all of a sudden became friendly, like super friendly. And everyone was like laughing and all of a sudden the cops came up and they're like, hey, jab, it's time to go to the DA.

And I'm like, oh no. So it was like the cops were being super duper nice thing. I got out, they asked me for autographs. It was the first time I was ever asked by an autographs was by police officers from the NYPD. You know? And I'm just like, this is so bizarre. It was surreal, like a very surreal experience. And, and anyway, that was, that was, that was, that was, that's most I've ever talked about that. Because I, I really, I don't like talking about it because it's, it's, it wasn't my proudest moment, you know, and it's not what I really want to be remembered for. How are you going to get away if things had gone had planned? What was your, I was never planning on getting away. What was your plan? I was always, I was always, I was always going to get caught. Um, but for me, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I was always going to get caught. Um, um, but for me, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I was, I was, I was. I was. I was I was going to jump, land, and I was going to get away right then.

Yeah. Because I basically, you're landing in traffic, so everything's frozen. You hit. I mean, it's been jump before. It was jumped by my buddy Yuri jumped it. Thorallix jumped it. Two British guys jumped it. Probably not at rush hour.

No, rush hour. No shit. No, you choose rush hour. That's the point because it causes grid lock. Oh, shit. You don't, I didn't thought about it in that perspective. Because gridlock, the cars aren't moving. And even when they do move, they move very slow.

And the thing about New York that's really remarkable is that all the streetlights are on a timer. So they all turn red at the same time. So literally everything shuts down. You can actually set yourself up for exactly what you're looking for there. And it's five lanes. I mean, dude, it's a huge landing here. You land between the cars. So you would just land, grab your stuff, then go on into the subway, jump on a subway, or jump in a cab. Probably not a cab, though, Rush Arrow would get you stuck. But like Thor Alex just went into the subway, got on the train, gone. I've been up there. I was thinking of you when I was up there. Yeah. Actually, I've had a few friends up there who said that, you know, every now and then the tour

guides talk about me. I'm sure they fucking do. Which is funny. An atypical tour experience. It was a, it was, and it was funny too because, you know, I was, I had no idea the impact that was going to have on just everything. But before that, I would get recognized here and there, you know, but I would always be, are you the jumper guy or, you know, do I know you from high school?

Like, you know, people would kind of recognize me, but they never really knew what from. after that was the first time I started getting Are You Job Corlis? That was when I started getting really recognized and my name was the most Googled name on earth for three days, which is weird for something like that but it was because I was a TV show host at the time and it really was.

And I was on the, dude, I had friends in Israel. I was on the front page of papers in Israel. I was on the page. For all the wrong reasons. Oh, for the worst, worst reasons. Like they say there's no such thing as bad publicity. Tell that to BP Oil. You know, there is bad publicity, you know, and that was not good publicity.

And it, and it crushed my career for a decade. And, you know, it really, it hurt me badly, you know. It cost me half a million dollars in legal fees and fighting and battling. And it was brutal. It was brutal. And I got punished, you know, it was a real punishment. And I does, but again, I deserved it. I understand what I got.

And I don't, the empire was right. you know, New York was right. The system was right. You know, everyone was right. And they all just laughed at me because I was a crazy person. You know, they're just like, you're a crazy person. You're hard to take serious because you're obviously insane, you know. And I can't argue with them.

You know, it's like, yeah, it's true. It was a lunatic thing. And, and, but what I learned from it is I haven't done illegal base jump since. You know, I realized that there's so many places in the world where legality isn't an issue that it's, at this point, it's, you know, what's the, the risk to reward ratio that just isn't there. Well, and it's not just that. I started realizing I wanted to be a professional, right? And if you want to be a professional,

you need to act like one. And at the end of the day, I wanted to make something, I wanted to make what I did a positive experience for everyone else. Not just for me. Right? I kind of got over this whole me, me, me, me, me,

because I was. I was very selfish. And it was all about me and what I wanted to do and what was good for me. And I didn't really care about what was happening for anybody else. And that day, I caused traffic.

You know, I made it really difficult for people to get home that day, which was a dushy thing to do, right? These people have lives. They want to get home. They don't want to deal with me. You know what I mean? So I kind of realize that now, you know, if I want to jump a building, well, I'll go to those building owners. And we will work a deal and we'll make a movie or we'll make a show or we'll get permit, we'll get permission. What was once illegal can become legal.

Oh, no. We, you can, if with the right production behind you and the right. You can make any, I mean, you can jump anything. I mean, dude, I flew wingsuits over the great wall of. China punching targets, right? I mean, I worked with the Chinese government jumping in what they call China has rings of power, right? So there's ring one, two, three, four, five, right? And the further out you get the less controlled it is. I flew in ring one. That would be like flying over the White House. I mean, that's how big a deal where I was and what I was doing at the Great Wall of China.

It was it was monumental what we did. Not very many people know about it because it all happened in China and they have their own like little firewalls. they saw it no one else really did but it was a huge deal like we've gotten permission to do things that are impossible well look at transformers they're sending it off the fucking trump tower for days the sears tower they were jumping the sears tower and they shut down the whole city for six weeks now dude with it big enough but anyway so i realized that that's how what i wanted to do i wanted to do point breaks and big movies and i wanted to again i wanted to make it a positive experience for everyone involved so i changed the person you know and that's what i've kind of

realize, and I think that's one thing that in my book that I, I kind of realized while I was writing it. I've done thousands of jumps, thousands and thousands and thousands. Five matter. Only five of them actually made me grow as a human being. And that's what I started realizing as I was writing is, it's like I didn't write about the fun jumps. That's not what I talked about. Yeah. The fun didn't matter. I didn't learn anything from having fun. You know, throughout my life, I've had a lot of fun. But I don't learn from that. I learn from the pain. I learned from the suffering.

I learned from the hardship, right? I learned from making mistakes, doing things wrong and getting shattered because of it, both physically, financially, emotionally. You pick it. Right? And each time I got shattered and broken is when I was able to actually learn something that mattered in my life. And, you know, I... When I was young, I didn't used to talk about this much until I did a document. Many like in 2003 I did a documentary called Fearless and I had an interviewer who

Was just really good like there's just sometimes people they talk to you and they get you to talk about stuff that you just never talked about before And he got me to talk about Being suicidal and I had never told anyone like my mom didn't know nobody nobody I went through like this Super dark period from like seven years old until I was 19 that no one knew about and people knew I was troubled Like they knew things were wrong. They knew that I was violent and dangerous and scary, but they didn't know why. They didn't understand what was going on in my mind. And even I wasn't fully aware of exactly what was wrong.

You know, I still, to this day, I can't even relate to that guy, like that person. I came across someone like I was at 10 or 12 years old. I'd be terrified of them. They're a scary person. Like, I was a scary person. And I was dangerous. And, you know, I never talked about it. I was just kind of quiet and this guy, you know, he was doing an interview and he asked me

these questions and all of a sudden I just opened up and I told him the truth. I just decided, you know what? I'm older now. I'm past it. I don't need to hide from this anymore. I can I can talk about this, you know, and I talked about being suicidal and I talked about the darkness and how I didn't want to be alive anymore and like what I went through. And it's fascinating because, you know, when I did that kind of work back in the beginning,

I didn't think people would see it. it's weird like I I I licensed footage to make money so I could continue jumping that's it I would go to the show would buy footage from me I would get that money I would go spend spend it to go jumping I never thought anyone would see that like I never even thought oh I'm actually I'm actually going to be on TV now and people are going to see this right I never even it didn't even enter my mind I didn't even think in those terms and and many years later all of a sudden people started recognizing me and it was always so weird I remember the first time I got recognized, I was like in Utah, like some gas station. And some dude came up to me and he's like, hey, are you like that jumper guy? And I was like, how would you know who I am? And he's like, he talks about something that I did. And I'm just like, oh, you saw that? And he's like, oh, yeah, it was amazing.

They actually used that footage that I sold to them? Yeah, you mean they weren't just giving me money? But it was funny because I hadn't thought about it, you know? And when I did that documentary, Fearless, it was a. another thing I did. I didn't think about. I didn't even think about what I was saying, right? I just was honest. I was just talking and saying honest things. And then all of a sudden, people started writing to me, you know, and saying, you know, hey, that really helped, like hearing about your struggle and hearing about what you went through and how you coped with it. And I started getting

these emails. And I started noticing it was either like young, like teenagers going through what I went through, what I went through, or veterans. I got a lot of stuff from veterans, which was always really strange to me. Like I didn't understand like how they were connecting with it, but I would get these letters from them. And I was always like, and I didn't know, I mean, I'm not a psychologist, you know, and I, and I would never suggest anyone, you know, do what I did to cope with my problems. You know, I, I, I'm glad I didn't get into drugs. You know, I'm glad I didn't get into more destructive behavior that would hurt other people. Really, what I did was more, you know, if it was going to hurt anyone who was going to hurt me, you know, but it, and it helped me.

Like I did, base jumping saved my life, which is kind of funny because it's like this thing that kills people. But for me, it really did save me. And it gave me a place to kind of channel all this really dark energy. Because I was filled with darkness. And I needed some place to put it. And luckily, base jumping was the thing I needed. Like it was so extreme, so intense and so like encompassing. You know, I always kind of say it like my brain was on full.

fire like I was burning like my mind was literally burning and I saw base jumping is like these little fire breaks I would do these really horrifying things that would just short circuit my brain and kind of hold that raging inferno back and I feel like it saved me like it helped me hold on it helped me get through all of it right how long was it before the fire went out or did it does it ever go out I don't think it ever goes out like you it's always going to be there I don't and I I can't even describe what it even is. It's so, I think the human mind is so complicated, you know, and we're all struggling. I don't think anyone has it figured out, you know.

I think some of life is meant to be struggled through. It has to, well, let me put. I think the pursuit of having no struggle is like a recipe for disaster. Well, one, I think it's impossible. I don't care if you're Bill Gates's kids. They're struggling. Everyone, everyone is going through something. I mean, and this is the thing, even if you don't go through anything, someone you care

about's going to die. Like you're going to feel pain. You're going to suffer. That's just part of life. And a big thing that I kind of realized while writing my book was that I started understanding that that suffering and that pain may be the most important part of life, at least for me. Like that struggle is what made me who I am. Like if I had like some genie and I could like get wishes and stuff and I could change something in my life, I wouldn't change. anything. There isn't one thing that I would go back and go, oh, I want to change this. Because even my mistakes and even my pain and even my suffering, all of that help make me the person I am today. And I'm happy with the person I am today. So I wouldn't want to change any

of those things because that would change me. You know? So I can see how if a person is someplace where they don't want to be, you know, if they're in a spot where they are still struggling and still suffering and still in pain, how they'd want to change some things. But I would suggest you can't, right? There is no going back in time and making things different. All you can do is like look at the mistake and look at the thing that happened to you and be like, I'm going to try to learn from that so that it doesn't happen again, right? And if you can do that, like if you can go through some really horrible thing and all of a sudden

learn from that thing to ensure that doesn't ever happen to you or someone you care about, in the future, then that's a win, right? And if you can see it as a win, then it can change your perspective on things. Because a lot of life is perception or perspective, like how you look at it, you know? And I think that that's the only thing you have real control over.

You don't have control over things that happen to you a lot of times. And there is a lot of, I don't like using the word luck, but there is a lot of luck in life. You know, a lot of luck involved. I've done jumps and made it. And my friends have done the exact same jump and not made it.

We didn't do anything different. You know, and that's where I've kind of really come to realize that I'm a very fortunate person. I've been very, very lucky throughout my life. And I think I've had way more luck than I have skill. Like I've always been a competent base jumper and a pretty okay base jumper because I did train really hard, but I've never been the best. There's always been people better than me and they're all dead. Every single time I meet someone, I'm like, wow, this guy's really good.

Like he is so much better than me. He dies. and you just sit back and go you know I don't ever want someone thinking I'm the best I don't ever want that word being used to describe me in anything and it's funny because every now and then you'll do like a project and they always like oh he's the best I don't say that about me don't you ever say that about me first off it's not true

it's not accurate there are people way better than me and there always have been but second don't put that on me you know I am not a competitive person I do not think you should compete in things that can kill you I think that's wrong and if you compete in something kills you, you're going to die. Yeah. And that's the thing about, you know, a lot of these dudes who, they are competitive, you know,

and they want people to think they're the best. And it's really important for them that other people think that they're good, you know, and that gets them very dead, very, very, very dead. Yeah, because, I mean, they're, they're seeking outside validation. Yeah. And, you know, like you were saying, if you fly under the tree and that gets you some validation, how the fuck do you take that to the next level? There isn't the next level.

You skip off the ground, I mean. Well, and I, we said it earlier. I mean, if you're looking for the line between life and death, you're going to find it. Yeah, every time. Every time. And when you find it, it's because you died, you know. When you were younger and in, you know, the trenches of what you described as feeling like you were suicidal and a dangerous person, before you had found base jumping and were able to do that, how were you able to survive through that without taking action? Well, the problem is I took action.

Like, I, from first to fifth grade, I was in a fight almost every single day. I didn't go to school. Like, to me, school wasn't a place to go to learn. I wasn't going there to read books and learn about math. I was going there to fight. It was a constant fight. And it was never me against one dude. It was me against, like, 10 dudes.

Like, it was always, it was never a fair fight, ever. I'd never had a fair fight. You know, if you look at my face, I have scars across my lip from getting hit in the face with rocks. When my head is really shaved, you can see scars across the side of my head. And that's from getting steel metal discs stuck in my skull. You know, that we used to fight. like real fights. And by fifth grade,

I had become so violent and just so filled with rage that, you know, I don't like talking about this stuff because sometimes people take stuff out of context and they don't fully grasp what I'm talking about. But I was on the verge of being a school shooter. Like I was that level crazy.

Like I had completely lost the script. and I hated everyone and I just wanted people to suffer because I was in so much pain that I wanted everyone else to feel the pain that I was feeling. It's kind of like, you know, when I saw Columbine, I remember watching it and people were like, how could this happen? You know, it must be the video games. It must be the movies. I'm like, did you douchebags ever go to school?

Did you spend any time in school at all? These kids were being tortured from first grade. They were being beaten on and beaten on and beaten on and they finally snapped. You know? And I can kind of relate because I was there. And luckily for me, I wasn't quiet about it. Like I told people what I was going to do. And because I told people, they responded. And the school brought in psychologists.

You know, I had one really bad fight where I had like five kids like gang up on me and like basically beat the shit out of me. And I couldn't do anything about it. because you're being beaten up by multiple people. But I snapped, I snapped, and I lost it completely. And the main kind of instigator, they used to line kids up. There's a bell that would ring, and they'd line up first grade, second grade, all the way through sixth grade.

They'd all be in lines. And they'd all, the teachers of each class would be in the front. And this kid was, I think he was one year ahead of me. He was in sixth grade. I was in fifth. And he was like standing next to the teacher. Like, oh, he's not going to do anything to me if I'm standing next to her, right? And I walk inside and I grab, like, the biggest heaviest thing I can find.

and I just go straight up to him. I just crack a skull open right there. I drop them. And everyone was just terrified because it was so savage and so violent and just so. And the look on my face and how I was, no one wanted to touch me.

Because when they saw it, they were just like, and I instantly just turned around, walked into the school, went straight to the principal's office, no one told me anything. I sat down in front of the principal and she's just like,

what are you doing here? I'm like, you know, a bunch of kids just beat me up and I'm done. I just cracked his head open with a pencil sharpener. and the next person who touches me, I'm killing them. And she's just like, whoa, you know,

and the way I said it, and I've always, it's funny, because my whole life, whenever I've said things, no one's ever questioned that I was going to do exactly what I said I was going to do. Like, it's delivery counts. Well, and I wasn't threatening. Yeah. I was just saying what's happening.

There's a difference between a threat that you can kind of see your way through and a fucking delivery where there's no question that the action will be taken. This will, this is happening. And, and this is happening. And they realized that and they brought in psychologists. And they started studying me. And they removed all my books, anything I could use as a weapon was taken away.

And they determined they're like, you know, this is not a healthy environment. You know, if it's already escalated this much by fifth grade, when he gets to high school, someone's going to get hurt. Like, seriously hurt. Like this is not, this is super serious, you know. And I was then taken, like put into homeschooling. and it's remarkable because that move saved my life and probably saved a lot of other people's lives too. I was going to save probably others, yeah.

Because what it did is I was taken out of the situation. You know, it was recognized, it was seen, I was removed. I haven't been in a fight since fifth grade. Think about that for a second. I went from being super violent, super volatile, on the verge of killing people to docile, right? That says a lot about, you know, recognizing a problem because there are solutions, man.

These are kids. Yeah. You know, they're not monsters. They've just been tortured. You know, and it's funny about how people, they can't accept the fact that, you know, people, our school system is broken. It's been broken for a long time. You know, people aren't going there to learn. At least I didn't feel like that, you know.

And it's interesting because I went to homeschooling. You know, I was homeschooled until 12th grade. And then by 12th grade, I was put into, like, a private school. You know, I took the GED. got my high school credits. I got my high school diploma. And then I went to college. It was funny. By the time I got to college, I was fine. No more violence. I should rephrase this. I had like a, what's the word for it? I was volatile. Like I did have like this kind of rage that was kind of smoldering inside of me. And I think that's part of where the depression, darkness and

all this stuff was built into me from my childhood, like what happened to me in school and everything. And base jumping is where I finally was able to channel all of that, you know, rage and pain and whatever. But I never, like I said, I never got another fight ever, you know. I had a few moments where there were like these crossroads where someone was pushing me. And if they had pushed just a little harder, I might have done something. But it never happened. Like no one ever did. And luckily for me, you know, I threw that stage like before, because that was all before I got to base jumping.

Yeah. So before I got to base jumping, I still had this, like, kinetic energy that was just, like, trying to, like, escape and I had nowhere to put it. You know, and it was very intense and very powerful. And then when I started base jumping, I finally found a place to put it. And I literally scared the, I scared myself to death. Like, I literally scared it out of me. Like, it's impossible to describe it, but I literally, in the beginning, base jumping for me was about terrible. It wasn't about flying or the, you know, you always talk about that.

And sure, maybe a little bit, but no. For me, base jumping was about terror. It was about how much fear and horror could I take before my mind shattered. And that's what I was doing is I was trying to shatter my mind because I needed to break it in order to rebuild it. You know, and I was just breaking myself, breaking myself, breaking myself, psychologically, physically, mentally, you know. And it took years to get myself to a place where,

I would say that I would say the violence left me by 21. Like when I started really base jumping, I was no longer violent. I also was no longer suicidal. Like I didn't, that's what a lot of people like when I tell this story, they're like, oh, well, you got a base jump because you're suicidal. And the thought of wanting to base jump was that. But by the time I actually got to base jumping, I wasn't suicidal anymore. Yeah.

I didn't want to die. And it actually created a strange paradox for me. Because I started base jumping and I had built this like over a five year period of time this this these dreams of things I wanted to do that were all death you know was all like super death shit like there's no way you're going to survive any of this you know so I built these weird ass dreams of just death and then all of a sudden I got there I'm like wait a minute I don't want to die anymore uh oh this is this is a situation like it became a problem but it didn't stop me yeah and that's where I created that kind of concept of like I want to get in there make this

really difficult thing happen and get out in the safest way possible. And unfortunately for me, I was also one of these rushers. You know, I just everything now, now, now, now, now, now, now. And that's what got me hurt. Yeah. And that's why now when I talk to people, it's like, I recognize them, right? Like, I can see it. I'm like, you are me. It is so, you see seeing yourself like that and other people, it from a fucking mile away. Oh, yeah. I can see it. And what's interesting, too, is I know exactly what's going to happen to him. Like, I can see their future. Oh, the script is written. It's so clear. And I mean, and it's funny, too, because I know that if I say something to them,

they're not going to listen because I didn't listen either. Like, I know they're not going to listen to me. But what's funny is I still do. I still talk to them because I've realized, I'm not talking to them for them because I know they're not going to listen to me. I talk to them for me because I, when they die, like when it happens to them, I know I tried. Like I did everything that I could do because when you see an accident coming,

you know, you're going to do everything you can to try to stop that accident. accident. Or you'll regret it for the rest of you're going to be like, oh, why didn't I say something? And I, and I, I had that happen to me. Actually, it's in my book. I don't really talk about that aspect of it. Yeah. But the Norwegian guy, remember he, he wasn't Norwegian. He's actually Italian, but we were in Norway. And actually, do I write about that in my book? No, actually, I don't. I don't. I was going to say, I don't think you do. No, no, that's right. This is another story. I did another Norwegian story. But I had it in my book originally, and I had that was got edited out. But there was a guy who everyone was sketched on.

like everyone. I was still pretty new and I didn't really feel like it was my place to tell people anything at that point. But everyone's like, dude, you shouldn't be here,

you shouldn't be jumping. And I'm like going, God, what do you guys? Who are you to say anything? I mean, he's here. Fucking fun,

police. Yeah, geez, God. Chill out, you know? You guys are being so intense. And everyone was doing this and we're hiking up

and all of a sudden, this Australian guy walks up and he's all, hey, dude, he doesn't know what size pilot shoot he has. And I'm like, yeah,

so what? He's like, no, whatever. And I just kind of blew it off. And I just kind of, all the signs were there, and I was just ignoring them. First off, I was new. I didn't know much about it.

But also, I just didn't feel like I had a place to say anything, you know? I jump. And I'm looking up at this guy. It was the first time I ever watched someone die. Like, it was my first time seeing a person. I was going to ask you how far into base jumping you were before the objective reality of death got thrown at you. This is my second year. Okay.

My second year where I actually watched a person with my own eyes die. And I'm looking at him. And, you know, you know, from Chirag, it's a 3,000-foot, so he's really teened. I've never been to Norway, but I've seen plenty of videos at it. Yeah, it's a 3,000 foot big clip, huge Fjord.

Is that the one where they, like, fucking 60 people will bomb off together? We did that record, yeah. I was part of that. It was 24 way at that time, but now there's another record that was 60, but that's further north.

So the one, the smaller record was there done in like 2009, I think. But anyways, so I'm looking up at this dude and I see him jump, and as he jumps, all of a sudden I see him like doing front flips

and then like flat spinning. I'm like, wow, this guy's going hardcore for his first jump. Deep into the acrobatics scene. Yeah, he's going acro-backro on his first jump. I'm like, dude, and that was my thought process. I was like, this guy's doing hardcore acrobatics on his first jump.

And all of a sudden, I'm like watching. And he was jumping a skydiving rig, which is why everyone was freaking out, was because he was, you know, jumping equipment that wasn't based specific. And all of a sudden, I see two parachutes come out. Oh, boy. As I saw two parachutes come out, I'm like, huh, that was weird. Like, why did he pull both parachutes? And then I see the two canopies kind of do go around,

and I see them hit his second time. And as he hits the second, I didn't even know about the first one, but I see the second hit, and then I hear the sound from the first one. And the sound was something that's so impossible to describe, because I couldn't believe it was him. Because the second impact, like, he couldn't have hit that hard. It sounded like a sonic boom. Like, I could almost feel it.

Like, it was so loud that you're just like, whoa, I'm all, was that what I think it was? Because that, I mean, it literally sounded like a sonic boom. And I'm like, and we start running, because obviously the guy's injured. And as I'm running over there, running over there, this guy, you know, who's in the boat, he jumps out. And he's just like, don't waste your time. I'm like, what are you talking about? He's like, he's dead.

Like, he's not alive. What you're going to go see is not something you want to see. He's like, the rescue team's coming. They're going to go get his body. But he is not alive. There is nothing you can do. Don't go over there. And I was just like, okay.

You don't even want me to try to help. He's all, there's nothing to help. Trust me. You're not, what you're going to see when you go there is not something you want to see. And I'm just like, all right, so I didn't go over, you know? And they, they, later that night, they brought back his helmet. And it was filled with brains. It was, like, filled with, like, stuff.

And I'm just like, holy shit. I'm all, and they're like, yeah, his head was crushed, like, gone. People ask me, you know, like, why do you bother wearing a helmet when you skydive her base jump? It's like, what the fuck am I going to put my GoPro, dude? Well. It's not to keep your, it's not going to save your life. Well,

clearly. Also, it's also for like landing, right? So there, for less of a ballistic impact. Exactly. So, yeah.

So there's, there's levels of injuries, right? So you could have a good opening and come in for landing and then fall and hit your head on a rock. That would help. And it will help you for that.

So it'll help you for the more mild accidents. Because base jumping isn't just, you live, you die. There's a huge gray area of like multitudeness injuries, which I've learned about. You know, I've been hurt a lot.

You have, Push the boundaries of your body for sure. I have broken myself a lot. And that comes from this concept of, you know, I pushed at 110% of my capabilities. Like, if you really want to do this long term, then you do 70% of what you can do, right? You kind of, you know what you're capable of, which takes time to even learn. Like it takes you a while just to even learn what you're capable of. But then you kind of have this like, okay, this is what I can do.

And if you want to live long term or give yourself the best chance, I guess that's always, the best way of saying it because even if you do everything right you can still die but if you just operate around 70% of your capabilities then you have a better chance of having a long-term survival in this sport right for sure my problem was i was doing 110 so if i was capable of this i would always do a little bit more than what i was capable of doing and that's what got me hurt all the time was because i was always pushing beyond my abilities and i knew it too like i would i did jumps where i stood at the exit point and i'm like okay i'm going to get low i'm going to pull over that bowl field and break both my legs.

All right. See, I'd just jump off. And I'd do it. You know, and I mean, I did jumps like, I'll be honest with you, flying dagger. I jumped out of the helicopter knowing I was going to die. Like, I knew. I'm like, there's no way I can do this. Like, I did not get the training.

I am not prepared. I should not be jumping out of this helicopter. I will die if I do. And I jumped out. And it's a very... But yet, here you are. I didn't die. Yeah.

You know, but again, and I'm always... Unless you're a ghost. That's... We've discussed this. It's probably sleep paralysis, but I don't think I'm asleep. But I think what it is I also have difficulty knowing when it's my thought process, like just dealing with fear or when it's real also. Like this idea of like, you know, when I did Flying Dagger, you know, I was supposed to have five days.

Describe what it is first. Okay, so Flying Dagger, I did a massive live show in China where I flew through a mountain. And it was such a phenomenon. on that Red Bull China wanted me to do another project. The Heaven's Gate project was viewed by almost 300 million people live, which is astronomical numbers. It got picked up by every single CCTV channel in China and showed live because I had a mistake and everyone thought I died on television live.

And because of that, it went from being a live show to being news. and it became news and then it went just across everything, all platforms, everything throughout Asia. And it was such a phenomenon that, you know, Red Bull China were like, you know, hey, we do, you know, they call it football, but soccer. We do soccer, which is the biggest there is, and your numbers crushed every soccer event we've ever done. Because soccer fucking sucks.

Well. Sorry for soccer fans. It's just not into it. For you guys, it's great. I'm just not into that shit. All I know is it gets a lot of people, watch it and people seem to like it in other countries. We don't seem to care about it here much, but other people seem to like it.

But the non-point is, is, you know, astronomical viewership. Astronomical viewership. And what was funny is, you know, Red Bull China, when we started the project, I was an unknown athlete doing a sport that they didn't have a word for. They had to create a Chinese word for wingsuits because it didn't exist at the time. So that's how I was an unknown American doing a project in China of a sport that no one had heard of. So they didn't expect anyone to watch this thing.

So when they got the numbers that they did, they were shocked. Like it was a shocking thing for them. So they contacted me to do another project for them. Problem was I had just been injured. So, I mean, we're getting into like, it's a complicated story because a lot of things happen. But anyway, I got really super badly injured. I was just recovering from what should have been a life-ending injury. Is this when you fucked yourself up at Table Rock?

Yeah, it's when I hit Tail Mountain at Terminal Veloc. I'm one of the only people in the world to have a terminal bounce, meaning I've bounced off flat, solid granite at over 120 miles an hour and didn't die. It's a rough video to watch. It's heavy. But anyways, I survived that, went through a bunch of surgeries. And now all of a sudden, you know, Red Bull, China wants me to come do this project. And I was like, no, I'm not interested.

And they're like, well, you know, we just want you to come take a look. No, we have this place that we think you might be interested in. If you'll come take a look, we'll pay you just a look. Those are called selling statements. It worked. I'm like, so I don't even do anything. I just show up and you'll pay me. And they're like, yeah.

And I'm like, all right, fine, I'll fly out there. But maybe I'll bring a rig. No, no, no, it was just to look. Okay. So I didn't have a rig. That's the safest. I couldn't even, I couldn't have jumped anyways. I was still recovering.

So they wanted me to do it the next year after. You were shattered. I was, I was seriously broken. I shouldn't have been. I could barely walk. I had to learn to walk again twice. I had, I mean, multiple surgeries, skin grafting. It was horrible.

But in any event, I went there and they show me this place. and as I look at it, I'm just like, oh, man, this thing is amazing. Like, it was like a geological anomaly. I've never seen anything like it. I'm like, this is a really cool place. And I could all of a sudden my wheels start turning. And I'm like, yeah, this actually could be really cool. And they're like, so can you do it?

And I'm like, I can. And they're like, will you do it? And I'm like, so what exactly did they want you to do? Well, they, there was this, like, like it's a very unique kind of rock, I guess. It's not even really, you can't call it a cliff or a mountain. It's like a giant rock that's been broken into three pieces. So it looks like three fingers.

Like the forks of the Trident, perhaps? Kind of, kind of. And this one has like a very wide opening, and this one has a very narrow opening. And it's actually like this. It's actually crooked. But it looks like it's almost man-made because it's so perfect. And it's super narrow. At the bottom, it's like 15 feet.

So when you put your hands out, there's only like three feet on each side. So it's super duper narrow. And then it goes up. And as it goes up at the very top, it's like 60 feet wide. And I'm like, huh, it was like three football fields long and about 870 feet tall. Okay. So to give you an idea, you know, when you're proximity flying me, when you're flying wingsuits with terrain, ordinarily you'll be on things that are thousands of feet tall.

And then you'll break off at around 800 feet. Go out into open altitude, you know, with open space. then deploy it around 500 feet. That's pretty standard, you know. This one, you are going to be locking into proximity at 800 feet. Meaning zero escape. No escape. You're locking in at 800 feet, and then you're going to have to fly like 900 feet, right,

before getting out on the other end to deploy a parachute. And you're deploying a parachute over a jungle. And your landing area was carved into the side of a cliff kind of a distance away. So basically I'm like, you know, in a perfect world, if everything went perfect, it could be done. But I'm going to need to do a lot of training, right? I'm going to need to fly at this thing from altitude, see how deep I can get before. So there was a lot that was going to need to go into actually doing it.

I'm like, I need five days of five jumps a day to work myself into this thing to see where the safe place to enter and the safe place to exit to be able to get to my landing area and do this thing safely. And in my mind, I saw like this jungle. And I'm like, you know what? Worst case scenario, I get line twists. I'll just land in a tree, you know, and at that point I'd land it. No, Jeb, no.

Well, at that point, I'd landed in like 10 trees and I felt comfortable with it. But it was, anyway, we'll get into that. Trees are very pointy. Oh, no, no. They can kill you. But at any event, fuck, yeah, they can. But that's what I was thinking in my head. That's why I said yes, right?

So a year goes by. I recover. I get better. I come back to do this big project. And this time, the first one was huge. This one dwarfed it. Because now they knew what they were to expect. So they actually had four embedded news crews.

Reuters was there, ABC was there, NBC was there, and CBS were there, embedded film crews for the entire week that I was training. So these people were on site with their own trucks, satellite, live news every single day. It was wild. I mean, the amount of money they spent was mind-boggling. Like they, because they just were like, we are going to blow this thing up. And I was like, wow, this is a lot of pressure, you know. Yeah, that's a big spotlight.

But I thought it was fine because I really thought with the right, with the, you know, with the practice jumps, I'd be able to figure out I could do this. You know, I'm like, I just need to figure out where I can get into this thing. But I'll need jumps to do it. A typhoon hits China. Yeah. So the first day we get there, we're like thinking, oh, this is. going to be cool. I can start training tomorrow. Everything's going to be great. Typhoon hits. It doesn't hit us, but it hits close enough to where it screws our weather up completely. The next day, it's

raining, it's windy, no jumping at all. So this is two days now, no jumping? Yes. Okay. Two days no of your five allotted? Well, this is actually the first day was just us showing up. This was the first day I was supposed to be jumping. So it's still eaten one. It's eaten one so far. And this is just the beginning of the typhoon. So we're like, oh no. You know, and the weather report for the rest of the week is obviously shit. And we're like, uh-oh, this isn't good. And so we're like, well, I'm like, well, let's go up and at least look at the trees. Because I knew there was a good chance that I would have to deploy low and I'd have to land

in one of these trees. So I'm like, let's go look at the trees. I'll pick the best one. You know, I'll pick the biggest, fluffiest one that I can land in and it should be fine, right? We go there. I get to the place where I'd obviously punch out. I could see where I would probably open if I got a line twist or something. bad. I'm like, I'll land here. This is where I'm going to go. So I go to the trees and instantly

I'm like, oh, fuck. The trees were dead. They were just dead broken branches inside green. Just fucking knives. Dude, it was like spears. You're going to get skewered. You land in this tree. You're getting skewered. You're going to bleed to death before anyone gets you. And I'm like, looking at all of them, I'm like, I might as well be landing in molten lava. I mean, this is, this is death. If I land here, I will die. Like, this is not, this isn't survivable. And I'm like, why did I look at this a year ago? Like, how could I be? I was like, I'm so stupid.

Like, why didn't I walk down here? If I thought this was a possibility, how dumb can you be? And I'm like, oh, shit. And so now I'm like, I have to make my landing area. There's no question that that's the only place I can get. So we walk over to what the landing area is. And I have a group of like the five best wingsuit pilots on Earth, right, who are going to be doing a whole show. They're going to be jumping and flying through the bigger portion.

And I'm like, hey, let's go look at the landing area. landing area and they haven't seen this landing area yet. I'd already signed off on this thing as like being fine, right? So we get over here and you know it's carved in the side of a mountain. It's it's about three feet wide. It's a concrete staircase with a concrete barrier on one side and a cliff on the other. And if you miss it, you're going to slide down an 80 foot cliff to basically your death. And you had already given this the thumbs. Oh yeah. This is where I'm, this is where I'm landing. This is where I'm landing. This is what is wrong with you. This is the good place. Like this is like great. So we're standing there and like I'm pointing it out to them. I'm like, yes,

this is where I'm going to be landing. And all of a sudden, like, Barry, who's one of the guys with me, he's like, I haven't agreed to land here. And I'm just like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, this is great. And he's like, so, Jeb, are you out of your goddamn mind? He's like, this is not a good landing area. He's like, this is, you're going to break yourself if you land here. And I'm just like, really? Point taken.

I'm like, I'm like, what? I'm like, and every single jumper is like, I'm not landing here. There's no. away. No one would do it. The only one who would land there with me is my friend Jeff. So Jeff Nebelkoff, who's no longer with us, but he was a wonderful dude and he was my cameraman, great friend. He was like, Jeb, I'll land anywhere you land. I'm like, good on you, bro. But we were the only two. None of the rest of them would land there. And that's the good. That's what you's trying to get, right? So they're like, no, we need to find another place to land for us because we're not

getting as low as you. We're flying over the top. We can go further. So let's go find us another landing area. Yeah, like land in like a crocodile infested lake or something. I mean, Jesus Christ, what you're describing is, that would sound safer. Dude, actually, I would rather land in a crocodile lake. But in any event, we go down, we find a road that if you fly high enough, you'd be able to get to. So we found them a place that they felt comfortable. And they're like, okay, we can land here. And I'm all, but there's no way.

I'll never get there. For me to do what I'm doing, it's impossible. Like, you can't get to where they're going. So I'm like, okay, well, that's great for you guys, but I'm still going there. So we go back and I have them build like this. Basically the entire staircase we put on plywood over all the stairs. So we make it so it's still a slope, but at least I don't, I'm not hitting edges. So they cover this thing with plywood, which I'm like, okay, that's great, you know.

There's this concrete bench. And Barry's like, hey, should I, we should cover this thing up? I'm like, oh, dude, I'm not going to hit that thing. I mean, there's so much space. I don't even worry about it. And he's just like, okay. As you left, I would have been like, hey, cover up that bucket. That's what he did.

Actually, as I left, he literally put their extra piece of pipe. So we put them covered up to, like, cover it to, like, take off the edge if I hit it. Well, next day, bad weather. Next day, bad weather. So you're not getting any training jumps. Zero jumps. Zero jumps. Oh, fuck.

The day before the event, it finally clears up a little bit. Kind of shitty winds. Still kind of raining, but I can at least get altitude. So I'm like, dude, I got to do a couple jumps. I have to, you know, do something. And they're just like, okay, so I go up. First jump, I fly out, get out really high. And I also need jumps because at this point,

I didn't know even where to get out of the helicopter. Like I didn't know where to line up. Oh, yeah, your spot. Your spot. Yeah, I didn't know where to exit because, you know, you need to pick like marker points to like figure out where you get out so you can answer this thing at the right height, at the right out to it at the right angles.

And what people probably don't realize is this is all done visually. What you're describing. At the time it was. Yeah. At the, not anymore it isn't, but at the time it was all done visually, at least for me. Yeah. So for me, I was like, uh-oh, I'm not even going to get the jumps necessary. I mean, even if I get to jump all day to day, I'm not getting the jumps necessary to be able to, like, even figure out how to get into this thing.

And if you don't make it to it, if you get out too far back, it's all death. It's just, it's all. Spear forest? It's not just spear force. It's like super steep cliffs and just death. Like, you can't land there. It's unlandable. There's nowhere to land.

So I'm just like, you know, so I do one jump, and I'm obviously getting out close because I don't want to get out too far away, and I'm just like, I'm too close. So it's a worthless jump. I basically fly over the top so high that it was like pointless. And I don't even, I basically land at the same landing area

the other guys are going to land at because it's, you know, I was too far. I couldn't even get down to my own landing area because I was so high. So I'm like, oh, well, that was a worthless jump. So then I do a second jump, and this time I actually get a little bit lower, but it still wasn't.

helpful, but this time I landed in my actual landing area. And I open, and I'm coming in to land and guess what I hit? You hit that bench. I hit the bench straight on. Like literally, if he had not put the plywood there, I would have shattered both my legs. I literally hit this. Which had previously been shattered, which is perfect. Dude, I hit this thing so hard. I karate chop. I literally shattered them. And I hit so hard that everyone thought I'd just been, I mean, the sound was of me getting injured, right? And I'm upside down. I'm like laying there and everyone's running to me. And I'm like, No, no, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. But he saved my ass.

Like, I would have been broken if he hadn't, like, done that. So I'm just like, thanks, Barry, you know. Sweet jump, guys. Let's do it again. And we're, like, done. And it's like, well, tomorrow's the day. I mean, that's it, you know. And I'm just like, there's no way.

I mean, there's no way. There's no way I can do this. I did not get the training at all, like zero. You know, and this thing is fucking gnarly. And I literally looked at all the jumps. Do any of you guys want this? I will literally give you this stuff. Which one?

Who wants it? I'd prefer not doing this, you know? And they're just like, uh-uh, Jeff, this is all you. No, none of us want this. Good for you. Yeah. And I'm just like, Bon voyage. Dude.

So the next day, it's the worst weather we've had all week. Unjumpable. I mean, you couldn't even see the top of the mountain. It was in clouds. And I mean, it's just like, oh, well, this isn't happening. Yeah. Like, period. You know, in our cutoff point, I think it was like, it was like 4.30 was like they were shutting off

airspace because it was military. So at 4.30, gun. Helicopters can't take off, projects over, you're finished. If you're not in the chopper taking off at like 429 and like 59 seconds, then you're done. Yeah, it's cooked. And remember, they spent millions on millions and millions on it. It was huge. And I'm like there with super pressure, like the craziest pressure I've ever had.

And the day is kind of going and going and going. And I'm just like, and you could just feel it building and building and building. and I'm like, well, you know, at least the weather's bad, you know, there's nothing I can do. Like, this is totally out of my hands. This is like, force, majeure act of God shit. There's nothing I can do about this. But I'm like, it's probably a good thing because if all of a sudden the weather cleared, I'm in big trouble. So it gets to be like around, I think, 4 o'clock, like maybe a little after 4.

And I start seeing a little bit of clearing. And I'm like, you know what? We should just go up and just see, you know? At least that we're trying, like at least putting forth some effort. So I go to the helicopter pilot and I'm like, hey, let's go up. And he's like, we can't get enough altitude. And he speaks Chinese and he's kind of like, but he's basically informing me that we can't get the altitude.

So I go and get my buddy, who's the interpreter, is putting everything together. And I'm like, dude, tell him. So he basically convinces this pilot to fly us up there, even though the pilot's like, we can't get the altitude. Like we can't get high enough. And he's like, it doesn't matter. We need to at least show that we're trying, right?

So we get in the helicopter. We go up. Sure enough, we get to the top. We're in clouds. The pilot looks at me and goes, like, duh. I told you. international signal for dumbass. Yeah, I told you dumbass.

We couldn't freaking get there. And I was just like, all right, well, it's done. You know, this. But you did everything you could. Project's over, right? So I'm like, okay, land chopper, you know, and I was actually feeling a bit relieved. Like I'm like, I shouldn't be jumping here anyways. I didn't get the training.

I didn't get the proper training. So we land. You know, I go back to the little like, we have this little tent thing. I'm like taking my gear off. And as I'm taking my gear off. Frank, who's like our main contact in China, kind of head of everything. He walks up to me. He walks up to me.

He's like, hey, what are you doing? I'm like, dude, we're done. It's like, it's not 4.30. I'm like, bro, that's 20 minutes from now. This isn't clearing. We're finished. She's like, Jeb, leave your stuff on. We don't know.

Anything can happen. And I'm just like, and I take my shit off. I'm like, I'm not even going to play this game. We're over. Take my stuff off. Maybe 10 minutes goes by. And all of a sudden, my friend James' wife walks in. And she's like, hey, Jeb, you need to come out here and take a look at this.

I'm like, I'm not looking at shit. I'm done. She's like, no, no, no, you need to come outside right now. And I walk outside and, dude, it's completely clear. And I'm like, what? No way. And so I call- This is mentally fucked up.

Oh, no, no, dude. It was the most disturbing experience I've ever had. And I call my ground crew who's at the actual landing area, who's Barry, who's the one who saved my life. And I'm like, what are the winds doing? He's like, there's zero. Dead stick. I'm all, dude. zero he's like there's no wind at all I'm all when did that happen he's like 30 seconds ago

I'm like because it had been 15 20 miles an hour all day and I'm like I'm all zero he's up zero and I'm just like and everyone's staring at me because everyone's hearing this and everyone just like looking at me and they're like are you going to go and I'm just like and then my mom starts crying and I'm just like because she sees she knows what's going on I'm just like and I just look at I'm like mom you know what I love you to death but you can't do this right now. It's completely unacceptable. You know, you're going to have to just suck it up because this is why I'm here. And I'm like, I'm going. And I go back in the room, put on my shit, and I start heading to the chopper, right? And as I'm heading the chopper, it's funny because the NBC,

I think it was NBC and ABC. Like they had these two news crew. One was a woman, one was a man. And I'd been talking to them the whole week. And they've been seeing everything. Like, you know, so they know exactly what's happening. And I come to the woman first. And she's like, hey, hold on. turn the camera off. They turn the camera off and she's like, what are you doing? I'm like, what are you talking about? She's like, you don't have to do this.

Like, nobody, you don't need to do this. Like, she even, she's, very confidence-inspiring conversation. Oh, no, she's just like, what are you doing? You don't need to do this. And I'm just like, I'm like, I have to. And she's just like, all right, turn the camera on. She's like, and she starts asking me questions. And I start, I answer him, but I'm like, in a hurry,

because like, obviously we're running out of time. So I go past her, finish her little interview, go to the next one. He does the exact same. thing. Turns the camera off. He tries talking me out of it. And it was interesting. Like, I've never had a news reporter do that. But they'd been watching the entire time. They knew how bad it was. It was bad. Super bad. And I'm just like, I got to. There's this, this is what I'm here for. And they're just like, all right, get to the chopper. Dude, it takes off. And you can't even script this stuff. Like,

this is unscriptable. We took off at 429. One minute before cut off. Right? So we're going to out of the student and I'm flying over and at first I'm kind of like and this is what I'd realize like my buddy James he figured out he's all jeb you're not going to be able to do this by sight because you didn't get the training we don't know where for you to get out so what he decided we were going to do is take a GPS and mark the entrance and then he would fly out and give me a two to one glide to get to that entrance so we wouldn't be guessing we would know where I need to get a chopper and two to one's reasonable no that's that gives me the perfect to have range right so I'm just like Perfect. That's what we'll do. That's the only way I have a chance, right? So he's in the chopper with me. We go up. And as we're going up, we have him stop at the marker. He takes the marker point. We go up. And as we're going out through the whole time, I'm like, you know what? And we have Berries in the landing area with a walkie that can communicate with the chopper. And he basically, if the winds get bad, he's just supposed to say stop. He's just supposed to say stop. If he says stop, we come in land, that's it. So if the winds got over 10 miles an hour was like the cutoff. And I'm just like, he's going to call any minute. He's going to call. I'm like, he's going to stop this. He's going to stop this. This is going to get.

get stopped like this no question this is getting stopped I don't have to do this this is not gonna happen I was just like hoping like praying that he would call and stop this and all of a sudden we get to altitude and we start doing the first practice run and as we're doing the first practice run like we're testing like where we're gonna go out make the turn in and then you know James like okay when I tap you the first time that's when you get out when I tap you the second time that's where you step off okay so we're doing the first practice running taps me and I look out I'm like fuck you well this is way too far away he's like

so this is where you get out of chopper. He tasked me a second time. I'm like, dude, are you trying to kill me? Like, there's no way. He's like, this is two to one. This is where you get out. I would never have gotten out that far away. Really?

Oh, never, never. Visually, I'm like, this is not. There's no way I can make it. Like, in my mind, I'm like, there's no way. And all of a sudden, I realize, oh, fuck, we're doing this. Like, this is happening. There's nothing stopping it. And all of a sudden, I had a,

meltdown mentally. Like my brain just freaking was, everything in my body was saying, do not do this. Like, this is absolutely insane. And I decided, I'm like, I'm not doing this. I mean, I'm wearing a full face helmet, my eyes are covered.

Nobody knows what's going on. The trauma that's happening inside my brain. The nuclear explosion inside of your helmet? I was just, I'm like, I'm not doing this. This is, everyone's going to have to understand. I did not get the proper training. This is stupid. I'm going to die.

Like there's there's no question. There are so many things that can go wrong with this that there's, and I'm like, I said, I'm landing with this helicopter. And I gave up right then. I'm like, I'm done. I'm not doing this anymore. And it's strange because something, it was so upsetting that I started crying. I literally started crying.

And all of a sudden I realized, I'm like, I'm done. Completely. I'm never skydiving again. I'm never jumping again. I hate this. I absolutely hate this. I'm done with this. This is not how I want to live my life.

This is not what I want to do. This is the most horrible thing in existence. Like there is nothing worse than this. So we're talking full existential crisis. Oh, no. I had a meltdown. Like I was my whole life, I was questioning existence itself. Like I'm like, I do not want to be here.

Like I am not doing this. This isn't happening. And it's funny because then all of a sudden, you know, I'm going through this, realizing that I'm done completely. Like all the training, I mean, I've been training for this mentally since I was born. Like, this was my entire life. Everything was leading to this exact moment. And I'm giving up.

Like, I am not doing this. And because I know I'm going to die. Like, to do this is to die. Like, that's it. My choices are, I don't do this, or I die. Period. And I'm like, I can't do this. And all of a sudden, my brain just was like, well, Jeb,

Okay, so you don't. Let's just say you land in the helicopter right now. Okay, you don't die today. Maybe, you know. But who knows about tomorrow? 10 years from now, or 20 years from now? Eventually, you're going to die. There's nothing that's going to stop that from happening.

The only thing that's going to happen is as you're dying, whenever day it is, you're going to look back at this moment as the one time in your life where you allowed fear to completely control you. And just change who you are as a human, be and you're going to regret it you might as well just die right now what's the point and i'm just like you know what today's is as good a day to die as any other let's go how much time expired between when this 30 seconds probably i was you say full existential belt it was it happened so fast that it's it's it as it and it's funny because like it it happened yeah i cried that my face was

wet with tears as i'm stepping out of the goddamn helicopter you know and and and it's funny because my buddy taps me on the shoulder first time and I step out and I'm looking down like I'm gonna die like this is too far away like there's just no question I can't make it and when you tasked me a second time I jump off of there going I'm too far away like I'm not making this like it's not happening I'm going to die and I remember stepping off going I'm dead and I look down I'm like there no way it's not happening I can't get there and all of a sudden I start flying a little bit and I'm like hmm hey you know what actually things are looking up touch I think I'm all I think I can make it and then all of a sudden like I I'm like really

flying I'm like oh shit actually you know I can fly over this thing like I don't even have to go through I can just fly over the top no one's gonna know you know and then all of a sudden I and I that thought went in my head I'm like I can just go over the top fuck this you know and then I and then I'm like you didn't come here to fly over the top just go for it just go from the just enter it at the beginning and see where you come out I had no idea you know if I entered beginning of this thing. I didn't know how high it was going to be when I came out of this thing. If I was going to be able to make it to my landing area, I had no clue. So I enter this thing, and it was way gnarlier than I thought. It became too narrow instantly. Like I thought,

oh, I can skirt the top and stay in the 60 foot section. It was instantly a 60 foot on me. And not only was it on me, but the cliff wasn't vertical. It tilted. So as I was flying, I had to side slip. So it wasn't just flying in. I was side-slipped. So it wasn't just flying in. I was side slipping as I was flying in. Fuck everything about this. No, no, no. And as I get deeper into this, all of a sudden I get so close that I'm like, last time I was this close, I impacted.

Like, I am literally going to impact. And as I come out the end, like, I come out of this thing and I'm like, you know, and you finally get space, but I'm like, oh shit, I'm going too fast. I can't deploy. But I couldn't slow down either. Like, I couldn't flare because I would get too far away from my landing area. So I just am like, shit, dump. And I just dumped in full flying.

Dude, the opening was so hard that I felt like I'd been hit with a baseball bat and all of my cameras were ripped off my body. Everything just went and I just watch all my cameras get ejected. They just go, and I'm like, oh. And then all of a sudden I look over and I'm like, oh shit. I grabbed toggles. I turned from my landing area and I'm like, oh no. And I'm like, not going to make it.

Not going to make it. I'm going to freaking just slam directly like full on Wiley Coyote. Boom. into the side and just slide down this mountain. I'm just like, ah, ha, ha, and as I'm coming in,

there's like the concrete barrier, and I literally lift my legs over the concrete barrier as I impact. And I impact so freaking hard, but I had a parachute over my head. So it cracked a couple ribs, which nobody knew, but I kind of cracked a couple ribs

because I impacted and came back in and hit the railing. But it was like, I'm not dead, dude. Yeah. And everyone's just screaming, and they're just jumping on me, and my mom's crying,

and it was, it was crazy. It was literally 30 minutes before that moment. It was over. It wasn't happening. We had failed. It was done. You know, I had 10, like not even two minutes before that.

I had given up on my life. I had quit everything. I was done with everything. And there I was having succeeded. It was one of the craziest experiences of my life. And it was, um, it was disturbing. It was disturbing. It caused a very serious psychological problem after that.

It took me like six months to kind of recover. Actually, it wasn't just that. We did that. And then we went to the next WWL event where we had someone die. Yeah. So I, and then I watched the dude die. And I had just explained to him,

along with everyone else, that this was a practice run, fly everything high. We're still trying to sort out the course. You know, input do not fly this thing like you're racing we're not racing this is just a practice jump he just run out of altitude he dude he went he went as if this was like he'd just run it 10 times he basically on-sided this thing like is it and flew like it was funny because i saw his first turn and you kind of washed out his first turn and i'm like that's it he's grounded like the fact

that he's flying like this on that's it he's done and i see him take the second turn and just straight into the mountain and i was just like oh you dick what What was that? Like, and so I had just gone through the trauma of my own. Yeah. And then I watched this dude go in. And I'm just like, this is so not cool. Like, this is really, really, really, really not fun.

Like, I, and it did. Like, after six months of me just being like, this is just, I was so burnt out and just so, like, destroyed, like, mentally from it. And I had just gotten over recovering from hitting Table Mountain. So it caused, like, this real. issue. Like I was really not happy with the sport or anything in it. And I was just like, I don't like this, man. And I, and I swore I'd never do another live event. I'm like, I'm done with live events. They are, it's a lot of pressure, man. Dude, it's one thing to go jump

with your buddies when it's good conditions. You just jump when you want and having a good time. It's another thing when it's like, oh, in six months from now, on Friday at three o'clock, you're jumping, you know? And these are your weather windows. This is the conditions that you're going to jump in. And for some reason, whatever the maximum is, like whatever you, like the, like just on the edge of being safe, that's what it always is. It's always right at where it's just going to kill you, right? And you're just like, why does it always have to be like this, you know? And I was totally convinced I would never do another live show until I get the opportunity to great well at China. And I'm just like, oh, God.

No. And it's funny because, you know, and then I did great well at China. And same thing. Both of my live jumps, I almost don't. died on both of them. Like, it's every time. It's like these just gnarly, and it's funny because no one gets it. Like, even jumpers, like in the sport, like they see, oh,

they're like, oh, it's so easy. And you're like, you're like, dude, I'm going to tell you what. You do it. And then fucking come back and tell me about how easy this shit is, you know? Live events are not like anything else. They are super gnarly. Everything is always like,

and it's funny because I swore after that. And here I am. I have another big live event coming. That's even the craziest. most unacceptable, insane. I mean... Back in China? Oh, no. This one is...

You'll have to tell me off air. Yeah. I actually want to talk to you a little bit about it. Okay. But it's... Because you have a little experience in what we're doing. Oh, you actually did actually text me about this. Yeah.

And it's completely unhinged. But it's funny because it will bring my life kind of full circle. And it's a great way to kind of... I don't know if retire is the right word, but it's a great way to finish. I was going to ask you, can you imagine a situation where you hang it up? Professionally, yes.

I'll probably jump until I die for fun and with friends and with my fiancé and just as something, because it's not something you can, at least me, it's not something I could ever just stop. It's not like that. It's funny because I had an interview

where I was in China and they asked me like, oh, you know, when are you going to stop this? you know stop like when are you going to stop this and i was like well you know could if you could fly would you give that up i mean honestly would you do you go to a bird and say hey when you quit this silly flying thing you know it's such a powerful experience um and for me like i said earlier i think the reason how i keep justifying it like how i am able to keep doing it are multi-layered one of the layers is

I could stop base jumping right now, stop flying wingsuits, I could stop surfing, riding motorcycles, stop diving with sharks, stop doing anything dangerous. I could do that right now. And I'm still going to die. 100%.

And once you understand that, once you accept that reality that death is inevitable and that there's nothing you can do to prevent it from happening, it frees you in a way that's really hard to explain to a person who doesn't accept that.

Once you truly, genuinely accept your, own mortality and your own death, you become free. And it allows you to do the things that I do. I had a friend who died from a brain aneurysm, mid-30s, super healthy guy, no drugs, no drinking. It's dropped dead. It's from brain aneurysm. Yeah. Not doing nothing. Just brain aneur done. My little sister, she has a 16-year-old friend, got her driver's license, had it for one week. Got hit by a drunk driver. Killed instantly. Never did anything dangerous in her life. You know, the the the we live in a delusion or maybe an illusion that we have some kind of control over when we die we really don't you know and helen keller said something great which is you know life is either a daring

adventure or nothing you know and then for me you know i see life is a bunch of experiences you have until you die that's it it's for super simple and i'm just trying to make those experiences as amazing as i possibly can and base jumping and traveling the world flying has allowed me to see things from a perspective that most people don't get to have. And, you know, I can stand on top of a building. And I know that if I have a parachute and something happens, I'll live. I can survive. I can jump off this building and not die.

There aren't many people who can do that. You know, if that building bursts into flames and starts burning, I will survive if I have a parachute. Yeah. You know, and that's something powerful. Like when I was on, we actually just went to the Freedom Tower. I was in New York last week. I was standing there and my fiancé and are like,

wow, I wish we had parachutes. We could literally jump this thing. This would be an amazing jump, obviously. You'd be back in the tombstones again. Yeah, well, I'm thinking more legally, right, with permission and stuff. Or if there was some kind of event, right? If I, let's say I had a job and I was working in a tall skyscraper building, I would have a parachute in my office. Period.

There wouldn't be a question. It wouldn't even be anything. If I lived in a high-rise apartment, I would have parachutes in my high-rise apartment, period. And if anything ever happened, I would survive. Yeah. And that's a powerful thing. And it is an interesting thing to know that you can fly. And it's strange because, you know, people are like, you know, what's it like?

And it's like, well, if you've ever had a dream of flying, it's kind of like that, but better. That's what it's like. The only thing is, it's real. Yeah. You know? Does it scare you more when you're getting ready to jump or watching your fiancé jump? I was always more worried for my friends than myself. Especially the ones that I had concerns for, like we had had close calls or they had had a close call.

I'm like, hey, man, remember when we talked about this? I'll fucking do that anymore. You know, I am, it's hard, it's hard to say. Like, I will say that I've, I've had moments where I was very concerned for her. But I just have a, I don't know, my brain works weird. I've had to develop a special way of thinking in order to do this. You know, and I've had to develop a special way of thinking in order to do this with my fiancé. And the reality is, it's her life.

And I just have to, I'm always very clear. That's why I think why I'm so, I don't know when negative is the right word, but I'm very dark. and I'm very like clear and I'm always talking to her about death and I'm always like you realize you don't have to do this you know this will most likely kill you you know and I've already prepared myself for her death you have to you know that's just what it is

you know and if you don't go into this preparing yourself for the death of not just yourself but the people around you then you're going to be very surprised when it happens I wouldn't describe your mentality as dark actually at all I think you have one of if not the most objective headspace and approach to the base drumming that I've ever heard.

Oh, well, thank you. Let's put this way. It works for me. And this is, I look at it like this too. Okay. Imagine you're going to get into an octagon in six months. Okay. And in that octagon, you know you're going to get into the ring with a big bad man who wants to rip your arm off

and beat you to death with it. How are you going to prepare for that? Pistol training. You're going to train your ass off, right? You're going to get as strong as you can. You're going to take a strong as you can. steroids you're going to do everything it takes you're going to do everything you can to ensure that that dude does not beat you to death now let's imagine you're pretending in your own mind that

you're going to have a tea party how are you going to prepare for that right i say you take it very seriously i treat base jumping like it's a big bad man who wants to beat me to death and that's how i treat it i take base jumping very seriously it's not a joke it's not funny this isn't a game that we're playing, you know, when people are like, oh, is base jumping a real sport? To call base jumping a sport is to insult it. Sports are games that people play with made-up rules. Base jumping is not that. Base jumping is life and death, period. You live, you win, you die, you lose. That's it. That's as pure as it gets. That's as real as it gets. And that is not a game. That is not a sport. That is something so much bigger than that

that any time I hear, like I did real sports with Brian Gumbull and people are like making fun, oh, it's sport, and I'm like, I just laugh. It's like, you do not understand anything. So Michael Jordan misses a basket. Who gives a shit?

So what? Now if he missed a basket and he got hit in the head with a baseball bat afterwards, well, now we're getting somewhere. I would actually watch basketball if that was a case. Oh, it would be interesting. But that's the point, right? I mean, I've never really found, I mean, I think mixed martial arts is, there's consequences, you know, for making mistakes. And I find that fascinating.

Injury is expected for sure. Yeah. I don't think anybody, Michael, do you know anybody who's died? I think there was one death. Maybe. I think there's been one. I think there's been one. But I think there's been one that I know of.

But again, it's not, it's not. You don't expect to come out of it in pristine condition, though. No, you're going to get hurt. Yeah. It's like bro riding. You're getting off that bull. You know, that's a real thing. So I worry about bull riders, people who think that that.

That's okay. They're hard people, man. They're, they're, I respect them because I've been around bulls. I've been to the running of the bulls and I've seen what these things can do. Hard pass. And like I said, bull riders, they're getting off that bull. You might get eight seconds, but you're coming off, you know. So I find them, I find that very, I have a lot of respect.

For sure. Big time respect for bull riders. I don't watch it, but I think it's, I have respect for it. There's a lot of sports that I have respect for. And even, I mean, I like basketball. They're fun little games to watch, you know. But again, to call. base jumping is sport is is that's to degrade it it's an activity at best a pursuit i don't know what

the exact right word would be but you know i i i've always thought of base jumping as a philosophy it's a understanding of one's own mortality it's a person who accepts death that's it and i and i think anybody who base jumps who doesn't accept death are being foolish they are they are not being real with what they're doing and and anyone who's just like oh and they're like i don't like the rainbow people i i i i I find them to be dangerous because the way they talk about it, the way they present it to the world, the way they communicate about it,

what they show is, I think, disingenuous and not real. And I think that's a disservice to people who are thinking about getting into it. Because like I said, I don't have anything against people doing dangerous shit. I think that's fine. Actually, I think in lots of instances,

you should do dangerous shit. Most important good things are dangerous. But you need to know what you're getting into. But you need to be, you need to go into it with your eyes open, and you need to be realistic about what you're doing, and you need to be able to accept the consequences for your actions.

Don't go in there as a victim where things are being done to you. This is like, what happened to me at Empire State Building was all me. What happened to me at Table Mountain? 100% me. Everything that's bad that's happened to me in my life are because of choices that I have made. Period. I am not a victim. No one's done anything to me.

All my injuries, all my broken bones, all my suffering is me. You know, and I'm the one who can do something about it. You know, and that's what I think this victim mentality of where people want to just blame everyone else for what's happening to them. You know, dude, we all go through shit. There isn't a single person on this plan. Like I said, I don't care if you're Bill Gates' kids. You're going through shit in your life, period. Yeah.

You know what's actually a chance being Bill Gates' kids. And I know nothing about Bill Gates or his kids, but let's just say people who are extraordinarily wealthy, you might be super fucked up. because people will try to prevent any level of struggle touching your life. Well, and I think from what I've seen, because I grew up in Malibu, like later in my life. An area notorious for poverty, I've been told. Very notorious. But no, I was around some wealthy people, and I got to see their children and what they went through, and they were some of the most fucked up people I've ever met.

They usually are on drugs. They're usually trying to disconnect. They're usually very unhappy. People don't treat them like human beings. everyone's out to get something. Imagine living in a world where everyone wants something from you. Everyone.

Every single person you come in contact sees you as a dollar sign. No conversation you have doesn't go to like money, right? And even when people don't talk about it, that's all they're thinking about. Imagine being, and it's funny because you're also kind of trapped

in your own little bubble, right? You have to have security around you all the time. People are constantly trying to abduct you so they can ransom you to your family. You know, send little pieces. your fingers off to people and shit. I mean, you're literally, if I could trade my life with like, you know, the Prince of Dubai, no way.

No way would I want that guy's life. Not under any circumstance. I would agree. The only way you could make it better is you have to go on a journey and explore the seedy underbellies of crime and then be put into prison and practice fighting and then fly back on your jet and become Batman. Well. That's the only way you can do that, Michael.

That's true. So if you could pull that off, that would be pretty impressive. Do you ever think you were going to be an author? No. I never thought I would be a writer. It was not something I was very interested in. I loved reading. Like I've always, well, not always, but in my early 20s,

I started really getting into reading books. And I enjoyed reading, and I enjoyed storytelling. And I always saw myself as a storyteller. Like, it's funny, I say I've been earning a living as a base jumper since I was 21. but that's not actually true. Like I actually have never made one penny from base jumping or skydiving. I am in the entertainment industry. I tell stories for a living and I show footage that backs up those stories.

I'm a licensing business. I license footage and then tell stories about that footage. So I'm a storyteller. And that's, I always thought my medium was documentary film work. Like I love doing documentaries, producing documentaries, telling these stories through, you know, interviews and footage, doing movies. But writing wasn't something I was interested in. It's funny because my grandfather, when I was, basically, my entire life, he was writing his autobiography,

like he was writing his story. He did three campaigns during World War II. Fuck. Yeah, and he, when he got back from the war, he went to college and he got to do. degree in journalism. So he was a writer and he would write for magazines and newspapers and he was a good writer, you know, he really was. And he saw himself as a good writer. Like he really did. So he was always in his study as long as I knew him, writing his autobiography, writing his life. And it was fascinating because when he was 96, my little sister went with him to the hospital.

And he thought it was going in for like a routine procedure. He didn't know he was going to going to die. And he was on his deathbed, not knowing it. And he started talking to my little sister, and he's just like, you know, when I get home, I'm going to start working on that autobiography. And he died two hours later. And when my little sister told me the story, I was like, work on his auto. Hasn't he been doing that for like 50 years? We mean start. Like, that was a weird kind of statement. So we started going through stuff like looking for the writing. Like, where is this? I mean, he's been writing for 50 years. It's got to be something, you know. there's nothing not one page and I kind of realized what happened to him and my grandfather saw himself

as a hemingway he saw himself as a very good writer and I think what happened is he would write maybe a hundred pages and it wouldn't be good enough and he was his own biggest critic and I think he'd get to a certain point and be like it's not good enough and he'd throw it away and then he would go and get to a point and throw it away and get to a point because it was never. Can you imagine if he had kept all that? Dude, I, I, let's put this way. When he died, there was only one book I wanted to read, and that was his. To hear what happened in World War II from his mind would have been, I mean, there's

nothing else I'd want. That's the most important thing that exists. And when I came to that realization, like, when that happened, I'm like, that's it. I'm going to write an autobiography. I'm going to do it for him. I'm going to do it because he didn't. This was something he was working on his entire life and never did. And it was fascinating because I wasn't a writer, right?

So I didn't have this high expectation that I was going to be Hemingway. You know, I mean, I don't have like delusions of grandeur, you know. No one just goes and does something and it's epic the first time they do it, right? You don't just go into a ring and just knock everyone out. You got to learn and train and get good, you know? And writing is the same thing. You got to write to get good at. it. And it took me three and a half years, you know, to write. And I just wrote and wrote, wrote,

wrote, wrote, and then I wrote so much that I got carpeled, like, and then I had to like take a little break, and then I started writing again. And I actually got injured from writing. I was going to say, you fucking injure yourself at all your activities. No matter what I do. I find a way to injure myself, but I injured myself writing. But, and writing was an interesting thing because I would never have done it was if it wasn't for my grandfather and like what happened with him. But as I started doing it, a really fascinating thing happened because I was a person that lived in two week increments. I didn't, I never looked back on my life. I was just constantly doing stuff and then the next thing, the next thing, the next thing, next thing. So I had 25 years of just

constantly moving forward without ever looking back. And I really did live my life like I was going to die at any moment. Every day was like it was my last day. And I lived in a very specific way like that for two decades of just I am going to die so I'm going to do everything I can right now and I'd never thought about the things that I had done. So when I started writing this book, I decided, you know, I'm going to write this like a diary. Like I'm just going to go back to the beginning and just write everything I can remember up until basically now, you know? And it was a fascinating thing to do because I had never thought about the things I'd done. And all of a sudden, you know, as a writer, you're trying to explain motivation, right?

When you're talking to someone, you're telling them why this is happening so that they can understand. And I kept telling story after story after story where I'm like, why did I do that? Like, why did that happen? Like, why would anyone make that choice to do that? And all of a sudden, it started dawning on me that I'm insane. I am an absolutely crazy person. And it was bizarre because I, you know, we joke around, oh, you're crazy, I'm crazy, crazy, crazy.

No, no, no, no. I had a very serious psychological disorder that was unhinged and dangerous. And how I got through it boggles my mind. Like I, as I'm writing this, I'm like, this is an unhinged crazy person. Like the decisions that are being made and the things that I'm doing are not okay

and how I survived is miraculous. And it's funny because when I finally finished the book my publisher read it and they were like, wow, Jeff, because they wanted me to cut it down. Like when they heard, originally my original manuscript

is 200,000 words, which is massive. Yeah, isn't it an average book like 80,000? The average autobiography is between 65,000 and 90,000. Yeah, that's the average. autobiography. So you basically did double. Double, yeah. And more than double. But they

said before they read it, they're like, Jeff, we got to cut this in half. Straight up. And that was the, and every single publisher that I were talking to, everyone, half, half, half, we're not doing anything over 100,000 words, period. Like, when it comes to autobiographies, unless you're Mark Twain, sorry, dude, you know, no one wants to read about your goddamn life that much. It's just too much. Like, there's just no one's going to want to read that. And I was like, well, how about you read it first?

You know, read it. And then if you still feel that, that way, then I'm open to listen. But when a person just automatically just puts you into a box without even reading it, and they all said the same thing, we're not reading it. And I'm like, we're not going to read it, but you need to do it. Exactly. And I'm just like, what? So anyways, I finally got one who was willing to read it.

And they said the same thing. They're like, yeah, dude, 100,000 words. Max, max. They're all, but we'll read it. You know, we'll read it. And then they read it and she came back and she said, I read it twice. I'm like, really? She's like, yeah, I read it twice.

It doesn't need to be cut now. So actually just needs to be edited like a normal book. She's all, your book doesn't read like an autobiography. So your book reads like fantasy. I would agree with that, actually. It's so bizarre and so hard to believe that it doesn't, you don't feel like you're reading a person's life.

It's, and I'm like, really? And she's like, yeah, you read as fantasy. And she's all, the only reason why it works is because there's footage. Right? The footage is out there so people can actually read it and then go see it. So they know it's real. And to me, you know,

it was an interesting process writing this thing because I learned a lot about myself and I think after doing it like after going through the experience I think everyone should do it every single person whether you're homeless person or you've had the most interesting life on earth you should write about your life it it helped me in a way that I could never if no one reads this book I got something out of it of it. Like, it was worth the process of doing it, even if no one ever reads it. Probably immensely cathartic. Oh, well, understanding that I'm an crazy person was, because, you know, that's the thing about being crazy, right? You don't know you're crazy. You know, I had no idea. I'm the most normal person I know. Well, this is also something I realized, too, while writing the book, everyone's crazy. Yeah. I don't, I haven't met a single person who doesn't have some kind of psychological thing, either happening or has happened in their life.

Like, depression is not me alone, right? It's a very common thing that most people go through a form of it in their life. And if you haven't gone through it in your life, you at least know someone who has, right? And it's a very powerful experience. And for me to be able to write about it helped me understand it better. And going through my life and writing about the things that happened. to me. I mean, you know, I meet people and they talk about near-death experiences, right? I met this one dude, and he actually named himself Shnohomish. And I'm like, I'm Snohomish. Your parents name you that? He's like, no, no. That's what I like to call myself. I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, well, I'm like, well, why? And he's like, well, I almost drowned in a river called Shnohomish, and I had a near-death experience, so it had a really big powerful money. And I don't know, did you die? Like, did you drown? He's like, well, no, I almost drowned. I'm like, so let me get this straight. Nothing happened. And yet you changed your name to Shonish.

okay like to me near death experiences if you don't die sorry that's not your death experience it just isn't to me I mean unless you your fucking heart stops you have no brain activity

you're not breathing that's not near death experience I mean you have a unique optic but I mean again it's just because I've seen it yeah you know one I've experienced them and two and I've had both right

I've had the near like Table Mountain would be a near death experience for sure kind of you know but I didn't die. I didn't lose consciousness for long. You know, I would go out and come back, go out and come back, but I never was like out out, you know. When I got hit the waterfall and broke my back in three places

and got eaten by animals and the rescue took nine hours and, you know, I never lost consciousness once, right? But I should have died. It should have ended my career. I mean, I hit a waterfall after jumping off of it. I mean, it was brutal and painful and I suffered and I had to learn to walk again and I blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, the whole thing.

But I don't even consider that a near-death experience. because I didn't die. You don't want to change your name to Waterfall? No, I didn't change my name to Howick Falls or butt eaten by crabs. No. And that's to me, I just find it funny. But it is people go through experiences, right? And to some people, that experience defines their life, you know?

But my book has hundreds of them. And that's what's so, if you, depending on how you define a near death experience, for instance, I was at New York going to court, right? and I'm on my way to the courthouse, and I slip, and I fall forward, and I almost get hit by a bus doing like 60 miles an hour. I mean, it misses me by this much. I barely catch myself before it literally takes me at the head, right? I look back and I slipped on a goddamn banana peel. I said you, it was a banana peel.

And I'm like, how ironic would that be if I got killed slipping on a goddamn banana peel? I thought that was funny. But some people would consider that a near-death experience. I don't. You could change your name to bus. Or banana peel. I'd go with the bus. But again, you know, that's, it's just funny because I have...

It's perspective. It's just over and over and over. By the time I was, by the time I was 16, I'd been in nine car accidents. As a passenger, I've been in cars flipping down the freeway. I've been put through windshields and dashboards. That's statistically really high, I think. My parents were shit drivers. I mean, shitty, shitty drivers.

Like, bad, bad. I mean, I, anyway, those are stories. and go on forever. But the point is, by the time I was 16, I'd had two death experiences. I'd frozen and I'd drowned. I'd been in nine car accidents as a passenger. I almost died from a meevic dysentery when I was five. I mean, I got put through a dashboard of a car when I was four. I mean, I write about that in my book, too, right? Like, my experience getting mebic Ticentery in New Delhi, India, and doctors telling my parents that I was going to die. Like, straight up, they're like, there's nothing we can do. He's going to die. Like,

it's too far gone. Yeah. You know, it's over. Just get ready. My parents are like, uh, no. Yeah. Wrong answer. Like, we would like a second opinion. We would like to talk to someone else. So they got a second opinion. And I didn't die. I survived. But I went through heavy hallucinations. I lost a third of my body weight. You know, I, I remember it quite. well, I mean, I got sick and I was dying and I felt like I was dying. And after that, I knew what death was. Like I understood that one day I would die. You know, and at five years old, to come to that realization is a little early, you know? I would agree. It's a little early. But it's funny because I've come to this thing of like, that's the difference between an adult

and a child, right? Children don't understand death. Adults do. And I think that's the, that's the shift. in a person, right? When a person understands death and understands that they're going to die and understands what that means, that's when they transcend to becoming an adult. Now, there are some people who would be considered children who are adults,

and there's some adults who would be considered children. You know, there are some children who don't believe in Santa Claus anymore, and there's some adults who still believe in Santa Claus. Or that the earth's sweat. Same thing, right? They're similar. I mean, people believing in delusional thinking

that's not based on any type of scientific reality. or just reality period. And unwilling to accept reason. Yeah, and they don't listen. But again, you know, that's people, people want to feel comfortable. And when you don't have information, like there are voids of information. And for me, I'm very comfortable saying, I don't know. Yeah.

You know, I have no idea. That's just something I don't know. It's beyond my grasp. It's beyond my capability. I don't understand that. It doesn't mean that I won't try to find the answers through science and through other methods. But, I mean, I can accept that I don't know something. But there are a lot of people, when they're,

they don't know something, they have to fill that void with anything. And they don't care if it's true or false. They just want to have an answer for something, you know? So, I don't know. That's my own personal feeling, but I think that death is something that we do know. I really do. And it's weird. I think there actually is a saying, which is there's only two things we know, death and taxes.

Those are the only two guarantees in life. For sure. You think you'll write a second book? I actually have a series of three books I want to write. Really? But they're fiction. It's weird because it's a story that I've been thinking about since I was a little kid. And I have three very solid books that are like, and I always wanted to write it with somebody else.

Like I wanted somebody else to actually do the writing and I was like more the storyteller. But now after writing this book, I'm like, huh, you know what? I like writing. It's actually, there's something very cathartic about sitting in a room with your thoughts and laying them down. You know, and laying thoughts down is powerful, you know, and telling. And I love telling stories. Like I really enjoy talking and telling stories and I have some stories I want to tell. You know, I don't have another autobiography in me, obviously.

I did that already. You could always pick another nonfiction topic, though. I could, but I really have, like I said, I have a fictional concept that I would love to do. You know, and I don't know, it's a 10-year project. I wouldn't have it done anytime soon, but it's just something that I'm thinking about. I haven't started it, but I've been writing it in my mind for probably 30 years. so I have an idea. It's more of like a,

I won't call Lord of the Rings, but it's kind of that kind of like fantasy, like real fantasy. I wouldn't put it off too much longer, Jeb, because we don't know when we're going to die. We've discussed this at length. That's very true. But again, also you have to live your life, too.

You know, writing is something that I do like, but it also involves sitting in a room by yourself for many, many hours. Airplanes, homie. That's true. I am on airplanes a lot. That would be good. For me, when I write, though,

it's hard for me to write when there's distractions. Right. So I kind of, for my writing, my process was I'd lock myself away and I'd put in earplugs so I couldn't hear anything. I needed almost like sensory deprivation so I could focus. And then if a phone rang or there was anything that got my- Fucked you up. It pulls me out of my writing, you know?

Yeah, I could see that. And that's so for me, I wish that I was able to like, I'm more ADHD. So I'm very like squirrel, you know, so I have to really focus when I'm doing something. So for me, I really enjoyed writing, but it's very time-consuming for me. Like, it's not something that I, I would probably do more of a Stephen King style. Wake up, write for an hour, do the rest of your day. Yep. You know, wake up right for an hour, do the rest of your day.

You should start that tomorrow. I should. That way you won't die before your books are done. Well, again, that's a thing where if they happen, they happen. The autobiography was the important one. Yeah. Because, again, I love this idea of when you write an autobiography, it's a form of immortality. Right?

that is something that will exist past your life. Like my grandfather, had he written that autobiography, I wish I could have read that thing, man. Same here, because I could read his thoughts, right? Same thing with you. If you wrote an autobiography. It's not going to happen. I could read your thoughts.

Your kids could read your thoughts. It would be called all the dicks. It would be pages after pages of me drawing dicks. No, you know what? I'll tell you what, man. I can guarantee you've got a story that's worth hearing. My story is, you know, people hit me up. all the time. And it's usually around writing a book about my military service or it. That's

the kind of the lens that they view it from. It's like, listen, I had a slightly abnormal job that I was average at. And so many people have written about it. It's like, what the fuck do I have to offer to that? You know what? Every single person has their own perspective on life, right? So what you have to offer is your thoughts. It doesn't make any difference if they're similar to somebody else's, right? So, yeah, lots of people have been in the military, lots of people written about it, but you are different. Even if you don't write about the military, right? You can write about something else completely.

You can write about your childhood and growing up what got you to the military. The point is you have a story that's worth hearing and your children, right, would love to hear it from your perspective, your life. And I've read books. There's one called The Good Earth, right? It's just about a farmer in China. That's it. It's about a farmer in China and what he goes through. and it's one of the goddamn most fascinating books I've ever read, right?

And the reason why is because it's amazing to see what he went through. Because everyone goes through stuff. And I guarantee you've been through stuff. And your kids are one thing, right? My kids are bored as fuck with me for clarity. They are. They could give two shits about what I've done. When they're 30, it's going to be different, right?

And when they're 40, it'll be even more different. And when you're gone, it will be even more different. Well, I'm never going to die. That's the conclusion I've come to. I'm here forever. Well, you will die. But the point is. is is forget your kids their kids your grandkids and your grandkids kids because this is one thing like

my grandparents i remember them because i met them i don't remember my grandparents my great grandparents yeah yeah i don't remember my great grandparents and my great great grandparents yeah no clue but if they had a book that i could read i mean what's the oldest book in in in the world what a story of gilgamesh right five thousand years old right now you can go get that book and read the thoughts of someone from 5,000 years ago. You can get inside their mind. And even though it's fiction, it doesn't matter. These are the thoughts of a human being

from 5,000 years ago, and that's powerful. Right? And this is the thing. You write your book, even if it's not a success, who cares? It doesn't matter. It exists. And in a thousand years from now, someone could pick that up and be like, oh my God, this guy's a fucking idiot. Or, this is fascinating, right?

Like, for instance, like right now everyone talks, like jokes around about, oh, how dumb is it that people post pictures of what they're eating on Instagram and shit? People make fun of that. And it is. It's stupid. But, imagine if we could see what people were fucking eating in ancient Egypt. Imagine there was an Instagram where you could go on and see what people were doing in ancient Egypt. I feel like it would be disgusting. I think it would be fucking fascinating. Fascinating, but disgusting. It would be gross. How many forms of dates can you possibly eat? It's just like, Jesus Christ. The point is, is that, you know, it may not seem that interesting now to us, but in a thousand years from now, everyone would be fascinated by it.

You know? And that's like my, my, my, um, fiance, we, she got up all these tapes from when she was a kid. Her family, like, recorded her and stuff. And we digitized it so we could see it. And it was amazing to see her as a little kid. Fascinating. Like, I watched, I'm like, oh, my God. I mean, obviously nobody else gives a shit.

But for people who know her, right, who care about her, that's a huge thing. Seeing her as a little kid. And this is a thing. At the time, parents, like, it's almost surprising they filmed her at all because, like, oh, we'll see her tomorrow. We'll see her the day after. Who cares? but now 30 years later, you're like, oh my God. Yeah, it's like invaluable.

It's probably the most priceless stuff we have. Yeah. If our house was burning, that's the first thing we grab. You know? Well, fuck, man. Uploaded to the cloud. What's wrong with you? Well, we will.

But I'm just saying. Jesus. There's modern solutions to these problems. Now that technology exists. But the point is, right? But that's the idea. If your house is burning, you grab the most valuable stuff, and that's going to be your photographs.

You know, the pictures of the people who matter. And that's another thing, you know, like when your family goes and your family dies and they're gone, you feel bad that you didn't spend more time with them. Always. And that's like when my book, I was writing and I mentioned my little sister and the editor sent me a message and said,

you know, Jeb, you need to talk about your little sister more. Why don't you say more about her? And I wrote him a message. It wasn't supposed to be in the book. It was just a message to him explaining why she's not in my book. You know, and he read it and he's just like, we're putting that in the book. Your reason for why you don't have her in your book is powerful.

And the reason is is because I'm an asshole. I was a terrible person who was only interested in my own life and what I was doing. And I understand that I had to be that way because I was suffering. And I was doing everything I could just not to, you know, my own mind was trying to kill me. Like I was trying to kill myself internally. And I needed to focus to not die. Like I needed to do what I could to survive myself. So I was so focused on myself, I had no space for anybody else.

So I didn't really have an experience with my little sister because I was too busy dealing with my own things. And when my little sister ended up killing herself, you know, I, like I said earlier, I have no regrets. But I do. And that's it. I regret that I didn't spend more time with my little sister, that I didn't have a relationship with her. That, you know, she killed herself and I didn't, I wasn't there. And that is something that, you know, you realize. only after you go through it, how important it is to be nice to the people you care about and spend time with the people that matter in your life. And you know who they are, you know, and we're all just so busy, you know, doing our own things.

And we don't realize how important it is to spend time with these people until they're gone. Yeah, it's a tough lesson to learn. It's heavy. Yeah. It is. And it's, you know, and it's also, it's tough to look at yourself and realize what a douchebag you are. You know, I look back on my life and I realize. And I realize, you know, my book isn't, it was weird because I'm not a hero in this book by any stretch.

You know, I'm a very flawed person who makes mistakes. And I wanted to be honest about that. Like I, that was the one thing is as I was writing, I'm like, I just am going to write things how they are. I don't want to pretend anything. You know, I don't care if people like me or don't like me. My goal is not to get people to even be interested in me. I'm just going to write down what happened. you know, the best that I can, the best I can remember.

And I realize that in this book, I'm not even a good person. I'm not a bad person either. I'm just a person. And people have flaws, you know, and we're all flawed. No one's perfect. Agreed. Dude, we've been at it for over three hours. Where can people find your book?

You can find on Amazon and Kindle. And then there's a link on... Memoirs from the Edge, people. Yeah, memoirs from the edge, exploring the line between life and death. and you know I'm I'm excited for people to read it because I really like to hear what they think about it you know that to me that's super interesting because I poured so much of myself into it I spent so long doing it that when I hear feedback whether it's good or bad I mean that's I like that you know it's it helps me you know and if it's negative that's good too because it helps me become better

and make you know if I do write again I would like to be a better writer and you learn from critical feedback. Where else can people reach out to you and harass you with questions like how do I become a proximity flyer with no experience? Well, I mean, obviously I have all the social media like

Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, all with my name, Jeb Corlis. So, and TikTok, all of it. It's all the same stuff. And that's where you can find everything. Fuck off. Well, you do a lot of stuff in China, so stay on TikTok. You know what, TikTok?

Honestly, dude, I didn't want to do TikTok. I was like so against it. And I have sponsors and they're like, why aren't you on TikTok? And I'm like, dude, if I catch you on TikTok doing dancing, I'm going to find you and beat your ass. No, I'm not doing dancing. Just fucking sitting there just, I'm like, I'm going to find you, Joe.

You know, it's weird because I never wanted to do any social media, like none of it. I was so against all of it. I'm like, I don't want to tell people I'm taking a crap. Who cares? I mean, it doesn't matter. Well, you don't have to post that. Well, no, but I mean, what else was going to post? I don't have anything else going on.

Pictures of your food. Oh, yeah, that's right. But no, but I realize that if I wanted to make a living doing this. You got to play the game. You got to. You don't have a choice. Yeah. And at the end of the day, it's actually fun to communicate with people who you wouldn't ordinarily communicate with.

For sure. There is something fascinating about it. Agreed. What do you want to close with, man? I'll let you close that. Just thank you, man. I appreciate being here, and thanks for talking to me. I enjoyed it.

It was awesome. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks, man. Thanks, man.