Cleared Hot - Powered By BRCC - Episode 378 - Nick Middaugh

Episode Date: March 17, 2025

Nick has a career of over a decade's worth of civil service spanning fire, corrections, and public safety, and he is also a survivor of CSA, more commonly known as Childhood Sexual Abuse. -Male sexual trauma is seen as a common issue that goes relatively ignored within American society. The suspected ratio of boys who experience some form of sexual abuse varies from one in six to as high as one in four by the age of eighteen. -Despite society's acknowledgement of the prevalence of this issue, the average length of time between male sexual abuse and disclosure is twenty years, not accounting for abuses that never get reported. -Childhood Sexual Abuse is a form of trauma, and while these childhood trauma statistics were not CSA specific, they are certainly related and may display some of the predispositions male CSA survivors encounter: victims of childhood trauma are; 2.4 times as likely to experience ongoing anxiety, 3.6 times as likely to be depressed, 7.2 times as likely to become alcoholic, and 11.1 times as likely to become intravenous drug users. https://www.nickmiddaugh.com/ Today's Sponsors: Montana Knife Company: https://www.montanaknifecompany.com/ LMNT: https://drinklmnt.com/CLEAREDHOT  

What's going on, everybody? We are back. Another episode for you this morning. I try to do this when there is a potentially sensitive nature of the topic. So I'm going to give a little bit of a spoiler alert. Today's episode is largely based around somebody's abuse, a man named Nick Midaw, to be specific. If you are somebody that experienced their own abuse or is triggered by somebody talking about that, use the episode with caution. Not saying avoid it. It's just a really heavy topic. And I know that it has its hooks in some people and can elicit reactions from some people that they may not want to relive on their own.

They do a better job if they're doing that with more of a little guided process through counseling in therapy. So again, today's episode is largely about Nick's experience and journey through that and what he has done after that. And I will leave it at that. So before we get into it, though, let's pay the bills real fast. Stick with me. Today's episode is brought to you by Montana Knife Company. Obviously, they have their roots here in Montana. Founder Josh Smith, who will actually be the guest of the show next week,

talking about their new tactical line that they have not getting ready to come out, more of a restock, but we'll get into that next week. Born and bred in Montana, roots in Montana, definitely a global brand. They have a bunch of knives. Go to Montanaknife company.com and check out the knives if you want to. You want to talk about a brand that gives back. They did a fundraising effort, come hell or high water, hundreds of thousands of dollars for the people who were directly impacted in both North Carolina and in the fires in Los Angeles.

And one of the other knives that they have that's getting ready to come out is the Blackfoot 2.0. It's not like a new release. They're getting restocked here. But you're going to get a one year RMEF membership paid for by MKC when you buy one of these things. RMEF, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. Now, if you're not into elk hunting, I totally get it. That's not going to mean a lot. But the RMEF, their headquarters is actually down in Missoula.

I've been to it. It's really cool. They had the world record bull elk on display. I don't know if it had been able to keep my shit together if that thing walked out in front of me. It's a great organization, conservation-based, and it's helping to preserve hunting rights, specifically when it comes to elk. You buy one of these blackfeet 2.0. It's coming out on the 20th,

which will actually be this week. That's perfect timing. 7 p.m. Mountain Time. 9 p.m. Eastern. 6 p.m. Pacific. See how I do the math like that in my head. That's what's going to be offered. Go to Montanaknife company.com.

And just scroll through what they have. They have outdoors knife. They have workmen knives. They have tactical knives. They have chef knives. They have apparel. They're starting to get in some technical gear. It's.

Pretty damn ridiculous. Like I said, Montana based, Montana raised, but a global brand. If you are lucky enough to get one of their knives or you see one of the knives that you want to buy, the best way that you can help me out is in the checkout process, let them know that I sent you. That's all that I ask. Enjoy an amazing blade. I actually just flew down there and had Josh resharpen all my kitchen knives. They're the only things I use in my kitchen.

I got one in my fanny pack. Not a kitchen knife, obviously. I actually had the war goat in my fanny pack. lifetime warranty sharpening the whole nine montana knife company dot combe check him out i'm looking at danger close now why are your glasses up so high like the frame of your glasses what are you doing because hold on before hold on before you before you change it immediately put the camera on you yeah i did okay look what's going on with that because these digs into them and pushes them against the side of my head and it's really uncomfortable you are a ferocious pussy

You can't even talk because you have perfect eyesight. I can't even look at you with it. Your glasses are at a 92 degree angle up from your nose. Do you feel smarter? Yeah, when I put the glasses on. Yeah, I know I'm not, but I feel smarter. Do you actually need to be wearing those right now? It's distracting me.

Can you just, can you face away from us? I do need to wear these. If I don't have these on, I can't see shit. Are you nearsighted or far-sided? Near-sided, really badly. But hold on, doesn't that mean you can see things far away? No, it means I can see things near. God damn it.

Because of the name, near-sided, you know? So, since you're looking at that screen there, can you take those fucking ridiculous glasses off at the angle you have them on and just do it without them? No, because now I can't. I don't need you to see me. Look at the screen in front of you. No, I can barely make out text on the screen right now. How do you even live life? It's very difficult for me.

At the age of 23, your eyes are already feeling you like this? 25, first of all. You understand your life is on a downhill trajectory, right? Yeah. No, trust me. You've already reached the peak of male performance of what you're capable of. Now your shit's downhill. You have tortoises shelled angled glasses on.

When are you going to order the ones from the movie Casino, like I said, I would buy for you? Because those things are amazing. I thought you were buying them. This is what I deal with. I told him to get me a fucking link, and I would pay for it. And you never sent me the link. To be fair, I completely forgot about that conversation. I need you to face away.

Fair enough. Nick, what's going on, man? Hey, how you doing? First time in Montana? First time in Montana. Yeah. Did you get in last night? I did.

So you saw probably nothing? No. I was like, man, I was checking in my hotel. I'm like, man, these mountains are going to look really cool, like, when I wake up. But right now, nothing. So. Michael, we're at the northern end of at least the United States in the Rocky Mountain Range, but we don't actually, actually, I'd say, Glacier National Park.

There's some amazing topographical relief there. Here in the valley, you can see on the eastern side, which is the beginning of the Bob Marshall wilderness, right? Actually, it's to go deeper, right? Because Hungry Horse Reservoir? Well, yeah, if I'm remembering correctly, the side of the mountains we can see is the beginning of it. Okay.

Is the western side of it. Okay. And it's still, honestly, though, not that impressive. Like, if you want postcard, Montana, I'd say go into glacier, right? Yeah. Yeah. You're going to get like sheer faces, topographical relief. Here's, especially out west,

It's kind of just like rolling hills in the east is a little bit more vertical. So bring your wife back like we were talking about. Yep. If you want to see all of Glacier, June July, because it takes, you want to go on the going to the sun road, which takes them a very long time to bury or unburied from the snow that falls every year. Okay. So you guys get a lot of footage of snow up here. Yes. Not necessarily here in the valley.

It's up on the mountains, though. Glacier. Glacier's probably a higher elevation than us, especially the going to the sun road is, yeah, but for anybody listening, that's if you go to glacier, that road is pretty goddamn cool. If somebody ever tells you, though,

that the high line trail is about three miles long, they're a fucking liar. And I got stuck on that three-mile hike one time and halfway through it when we were five miles deep. I was very upset because there was no shortcut to end it.

No. And we just continued the other five miles. So whatever, I digress. Fair enough. What do you want to chat about? The main thing is, you know, they got a book coming out, suffering and silence, male childhood, sexual abuse, survivorship. That's a good title. Suffering and Silence is just a really good title for men.

That could just be a book about men. Pretty much. Yeah. And I mean, I've also found that a lot of people have that book title too. But do they? Yeah. At least on Amazon, it seems like it. But did you consider, and I'm asking these questions.

I don't know anything about being an author. Sure. Did you consider changing it so it would be dissimilar to the other titles? that were already out there? Not really. To be completely frank with you, I didn't even look at what the other titles were. I was just like, this sounds good.

This is kind of the theme and went with it. Are you self-publishing? What route are you going? Entirely self-published. Okay. How was that? I feel like it on the outside could seem very achievable and easy. And then I feel like the closer you get

and all the steps you would need to take, it would get more complex. Yeah. Um, honestly, I mean, the, the book started, I mean, when I really started writing it, at some point, um, I decided to give a journal for my kids. And that's kind of like what this, and I'll get into why it's like what the process is, but it began as a journal for my kids. And then as I kind of progressed professionally, like it became almost like, well, hey, you know, I've kind of, you know, I've been an alcoholic. I've got the CSA stuff. I've been through some trauma and service. Like, like, why don't I turn this instead into a memoir? And then I can kind of like hope somebody that will, you know, read it can get something out of it. When did you start journaling?

Probably specifically to my kids would have been like 2018. I initially started journaling kind of like in therapy around like 2015, 2016. So was the initial attempt therapeutic or are you just trying to get your thoughts down on paper? The initial attempt was all therapeutic. Do you find that helped? I think it does. I think it did for me because in a way you can kind of like put all your feelings out on the page, disassociate, come back, and reread it.

And there's something about that process that you can kind of like separate from those emotions a little bit, I think. How many physical journals have you written through at this point? At least six. What do you do with the old ones? Put them in a box in the closet. Do you ever go back and look at them or is that not part of the therapy process? It's supposed to be get it down on paper and kind of move away from it? or, and I'm sure it's actually, it probably depends on the person.

Right, yeah. Is it something you're, from a therapeutic perspective, supposed to come back and review at times, or you just get it out and move on? I'm not entirely sure. I mean, I think it is kind of subjective, like you said. For me, particularly, like, when I was writing the book, I'd go back and look because at first, you know,

I was like, oh, I should maybe include some of these journal entries or whatever. And then, like, sometimes it's just interesting to go back and look at, like, what my thought process was over the years. Yeah. with like particular concern to like all the years I spent drinking, like what those journal entries look like versus like just kind of next to varying life events. How'd you find your way into alcoholism? Well. And what was the drink of choice?

The drink of choice. I'm going to get made fun of, I'm sure. It's potential. At first, I mean, I should probably preface this with like, just like. There's no preface. Just what was the drink of choice? Fair enough. Michael likes rosé, so I mean...

Rosey. He likes a nice bottle of rosé. He's a fancy girl. Yeah, don't listen to him. Milwaukee Best. So it was beer? Yeah. Can you actually get that shit face on that piss beer?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was like 6 or 7%. Okay. You get a tall boy. Back in my day, back when I was drinking a lot, you could get it for like $1.6. Okay. A tall boy?

For like a dollar? Oh, yeah. And 6 or 7% alcohol? Oh, yeah, giddy up. That's going to get it down. Oh, yeah. I was crushing it, dude, like four or five a night. What led you into that?

So I think like any troubled kid, I mean, maybe not any, but there's a certain amount of, I think, people out there, like when they have something happened to them when they're a child, they're more predisposed to just trying to check out. you know now for me just trying to check out was i always had this infatuation with um being at a party being the guy that drinks um kind of numbing myself up at some point in high school um as i was kind of running away from you know what happened to me as a kid it became more of a conscious effort that I'm like, hey, I'm going to go hang out with my boy Freddie and I'm going to get drunk so that way I can just shut everything off in my head. When you're thinking about it from that perspective of shutting everything off? Because I think in high school saying like, hey, I'm going to go hang out with my boys and get shitfaced is not an abnormal thought process.

Right. And I mean, sure, there's some of it that was just fun, you know, like it started out that way, I think. But I was raised in like a Christian conservative household. And my parents made a very, like, conscious effort to steer us away from the path of, like, alcohol and drugs and stuff like that. Isn't it funny how sometimes that steers your right towards it? Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.

Be careful out there, parents. I'm not saying advocate for it, but sometimes the harder you push, you're leading your children towards things that they become curious about. Yeah. Yeah. And... Did they drink at all? They did. But as a kid, if they did, we didn't see it.

Me and my brother. Interesting. So, I mean, there was a handful of occasions at, like, Deer Camp where I'd see my dad drink a little bit. But, you know, if we did see him drink, it was that or, like, on vacation. Yeah. And it was very minimal. What was his drink of choice? Samuel Adams.

He's an IPA guy. I can't tolerate those. They're too much. The bitterness to me, it just destroys my stomach. Yeah, no. What best I could do is, like, Killian's, or Voodoo Ranger. Okay. But.

So you Wisconsinites, is that the correct word? What's that? Wisconsinites. Wisconsin? Michigan. You got you from Michigan. Michiganite. Michiganer.

Michiganians? Michigan. You guys are heavy beer drinkers, it sounds like. I would have thought you guys were straight Jack Daniels like out of the bottle. There's a little bit of that. But the craft beer crowd is definitely a thing in Michigan. You go to places like Traverse City or up north, even west side of the state by Grand Rapids. They're big into craft beer.

A lot of breweries out there. I just wanted like the fastest mechanism. him to get drunk. And you're aware that's not a tall boy, right? Yeah. Like that's Bush. You're talking about 7% alcohol. Not that I'm giving anybody drinking advice, but I mean, you know, vodka tonics can be a little bit,

probably a 40% versus seven. Right. Slower, you know, lower volume, you know? Yeah, I mean, well, there's the Milwaukee best out drink, but I'd also get those 99 apples or like 99 vodka proof shooters or whatever. Okay. And I'd probably have like four of those. Side cars, if you will.

What's that? Side cars, if you will. Yeah, basically. No, it's like, hey, I'm going to take a shot. I'm going to drink half of this Milwaukee Best, and then I'm going to do another shot, and then follow up with some more beer. Dude, I ballooned from, I mean, when my alcoholism really took off

was when I turned 21 naturally. Because before that, I was, like, relying on this network of buyers I had crafted out of, like, dudes I went to high school with, but were a few years ahead of me, and they also moved to Saginaw where I was living. So I'd, like, rotate through these people. And- Oh, you had to buy you booze, you mean? Yeah, they'd buy any booze.

Yeah. So from the age of like 19 on a 21, it was rare that I went a night without it. The only barrier to that was any money I might not have had or just the simple fact that wasn't 21. Once I turned 21, I mean, there was no more barrier except for money. How much weight did you gain? I went from 185 to 275. That's what I'm talking about. That's varsity.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, no. Almost a straight 100 LBs. Yeah. That's a lot of tall boys. Very, very, yeah. How long did it take to get that off? I mean, right now, as I said, I'm at like 220,

and I'm actually up a little bit from 210, thanks to the winter. Got a hibernate in Michigan. I don't think that's true. No, it's not, but I like to think that. It makes it easier when I go reach for the kids fruit snacks at 3 a.m. Be careful the lies that we tell. or so.

Yeah. Yeah. No. That's a lot of weight. It was a lot. And, you know, what comes with that, too, is, you know, as a kid, like, I really had a lot of self-esteem issues and I was very self-conscious about, you know, even though I was always, I mean, after 6th grade, I was in sports, athletic, never really had a problem with weight.

You know, was a firefighter, was in good shape. And then all of a sudden I found myself at 275. And I can understand. it gave me a different appreciation for being fit. And I can also understand, like, how hard it is to get that weight off for people. Yeah. Because you get up there and then you're just, you look in the mirror and you're like, oh my God, like, I used to be this fit kid who would go into burning buildings or I'd, you know,

cut somebody out of the car or whatever it might be. And now I'm, like, fat. I'm out of shape. I've, you know, run out of breath real easy, you know, going upstairs and shit like that. But the process to, you know, really start getting that weight off is, you know, I had like intermittent periods of sobriety. Did you just like drinking or do you feel like you were actually an alcoholic? Because it is, those are different things. I have some friends who just really, like craft beers as an example.

Right. Yeah. They just love the taste of craft beer. They have one or two probably every night. Now, is that an alcoholic? I don't know the technical description to that or the technical. answer. Maybe if they can't go a night or two without that, perhaps they are. But some people just, it's part of their natural lifestyle. And for other people, the grips of addiction has them. And

they're going to have, you know, physiological response to not having alcohol. Yeah. So did you like to drink or were you an alcoholic? Um, both. Okay. It's probably a really shitty pairing, actually. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Uh, no, I, um, like I said, you know, I was raised in this environment where like, my parents were, especially as I got older, they're really trying to steer us away from, you know, the path of alcohol and drugs and stuff like that, you know, telling us like, hey, you know, you can go out and have some drinks at a party, but be safe, be smart, don't drink too much, you know, don't let it become a habit.

And, you know, especially like growing up in church and in the middle of nowhere, in Michigan, like, there's a lot of that. You know, drugs are bad. Alcohol is not good. That's a very general parenting statement. I don't think that's just the middle of nowhere. But so I knew, you know, I knew that it probably wasn't the best path to walk, but I was in such a state of victimhood, you know, at a certain point, even though I knew it was wrong,

it was like the conscious effort to just drink. And then once you get to a certain point, you're addicted. and there's a lot of things that changes, I think, with you physiologically as well as, like, mentally just once you're addicted, like your mental health, you know, it gets different and you find different ways to kind of justify the continuance of that dependency. Yeah. And that was me hook, line, and sinker. I couldn't go a day without drinking. Would you have physical symptoms if you did? Not in that short of a turnaround.

Maybe a little bit. I'd get like a headache. at worst. There really wasn't a whole lot of periods in my life where, you know, I went without it. You know, now when I did have a few brief, extensive sobriety, maybe it was like a week or a couple days, you know, I tell myself, I'm going to stop drinking. I'm not going to go back. This is a problem. I've gained all this weight. I'm not good to my family when I'm drinking all the time. Do you ever wake up super hungover? Like, I'm never drinking again? Yeah. And then I go right back to drinking, dude.

Oh, I know. It's the most common, probably the most common time ever for, for human species to say they're going to stop drinking is when they wake up feeling like shit. And it usually lasts in my experience, 12 hours. Yep. Yep, about 12 hours. I'd be back in the checkout lane, getting more stuff. And the hangover, like, especially after you get sober,

like you realize just how shitty you feel every day for years. And then you're like, wow, I don't have to like run to the bathroom or, you know, guzzle a bunch of water to feel normal or deal with this headache. Like I drank a good amount. I've never had an addictive personality. And the community I came from, I hesitate to say that it was a drinking culture. But the reality is it was a drinking culture, even though they would sit there and tell you, hey, be responsible, be smart, but also be at this kegger and you better not be the first person to leave. It's very conflicting information.

Right. It got a scripts into some people and other people not. For me, I've always been take it or leave it. But I drank pretty heavily in my early 20s and I would say even 30s. and now I drink so infrequently now. And I feel so much better. I have nothing against it. Like I love having a glass of wine with my wife, Leah.

And time and place, but man, you wake up, you're like, fuck. I don't know. Also, I suffer from AGE, also known as age. So as that continues, Michael doesn't even understand this yet. He's fucking 23 year old. But yeah, you know, things impact you differently. Now it's, I don't have, I would rather actually be functional and productive and be able to think clearly and wake up feeling rested as opposed to feeling like a monkey shit in your mouth.

So. Fair enough. Yeah. How, when did you realize or do you remember the moment where you told yourself this is enough and you were going to have a change in behavior? Yeah. I told myself that all the time. Yeah, but when did it stick?

For when it stuck, it was probably, it was shortly before my second boy was born in 2020. one. I ended up quitting about a month after he was born, September 9th. And I had just had enough. You know, I realized at some point before that, and I mean, my story, you've got suicide, you've got suicide attempts, you've got this addiction, you've got all sorts of trauma, you've got the childhood stuff, and I've got the stuff that I went through as an adult, and just really poor mental health. But essentially, Around that time, like, I realized, like, hey, I need to be, you know, I need to be the dad that I want to be. And I need to do that.

I need to be the man that, you know, is on top of the mountain that I claim I have something in common with when I'm really just walking hypocrite. We're all walking hypocrites to do, right, man. Yeah. You know, perfect is not possible. Right, right. But, yeah, I mean, I wanted it bad enough. I wanted it more than anything in my life to just. be sober.

Wasn't it hard for you? Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, it was super difficult. Did it get easier as time went on? It has. So sitting here now, I'm a little over three years sober from alcohol. I mean, it was rough at first. I mean, headaches, shakes, just.

So the physiological symptoms were there. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, irritable. And then you have this whole other, you know, aside from the physical symptoms, you have this whole other aspect of like, now I have to cope with, life like a normal person does. Yeah, and 4K. Yeah, and there's no retreat. And, you know, I can't just

shut things off. So now I've got to figure out how to do this. And, you know, on top of that, just the normal daily stresses of life, raising kids, you know, working a job, whatever, there's all this trauma that I've been burying, you know, in the bottom of a bottle for so long. So now I've got to work on that, you know, now that's confronting me and I have nothing to soften the blow, so to speak. Man, that's a shotgun blast of the face. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. What happened to you when you were younger? Yeah. So on the outside, my childhood is awesome. It's great. Wonderful family, wonderful parents. Kind of idealic, like, slow country upbringing in the middle of nowhere and the thumb of Michigan. Is it the thumb of Michigan?

Yeah, the thumb. And I got to do the Michigander thing real quick. So if you're in Michigan. Michael, can you please pull up a picture of Michigan? And you don't know. Nobody knows. Where you're from? You pull out the old hand.

Yeah. And you say, hey, man, I'm from like right over here. That would work to talking to other Michiganians. To other Michiganers, yes. But. That's the thumb? Yep, that's the thumb right there. What if you're right-handed?

Well, that doesn't fucking work, does it? I mean, look at what you just did. That's backwards. That's fair. Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah. I worry about Michiganians who are right.

Right-handed. Okay, so you're from the thumb. I'm going to call that more of a lobster claw, to be honest. Lobster claw. I mean, look at these. Potosky. Makinaw. Potoski. Hold on. Say that again? Potoski. Okay. What's that fourth letter? That's an O. Yeah. Why did you just say ah? I don't know. I think it's just our action. Am I losing my fucking mind here, Michael? You've lost your mind a long time ago. Yeah. You know, Mackinaw City. Yeah, Maconaw makes sense because the N-A-W. Petosky, that's P-O-S-E-O-Ski.

Petos-K. From what I've heard, and I have no idea because I'm from there, so like how can I even tell? But from what I've heard, we put a lot of emphasis on our vowels over there. From what I've seen and knowing you for 10 minutes, you guys say shit that isn't real. Because that's P-E-T-O-S-K-E-Y, P-T-O-S-K-E-Y, P-Tosky. And you said, Patosky. Potoski. All right, maybe the map is wrong.

What the fuck do I know? Michael, scroll down. Is it the Gulf of America yet on this map? Oh, Gulf of Mexico. Not yet. Unbelievable. What do we have to do to take? I guess an executive order from one country isn't enough.

You better give us a Gulf back Mexico. That's ours. Do you think it'll be better if we said it could be the Gulf of Mexico and America? We could be inclusive. Inclusive? That's a good idea. Yeah. We could be friends.

I mean, I think we're still friends. but scroll in more, Michael. Maybe it changes as you get closer. Oh, fuck, it gets smaller. How dare you? Pull up a different mapping software. Let's see what it says. Okay, I'll be on the lookout.

All right, so you're from the thumb. Yes. Family from an outside perspective, which I feel like, I know we're going to be talking about abuse. I feel like a lot of the times that people are in an abusive situation, especially as a child,

I feel like what you were describing is very normal. Yeah. Not normal in what happened to you, but normally is from an outside perspective where the white picket fence with the, you know, the nuclear family and sunshine and rainbows and all that stuff. And then, of course, behind the scenes, nobody really knows what's going on behind the facade. Yeah. Yeah, and that's really what it was because, and it's weird to talk about because, you know, my experiences, you know, kind of like I ended up connecting with Seth, who was on here recently and talking about, you know, some of this stuff. a little bit. I think we released his episode four days ago.

Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Man, fuck. I sit here and listen to those experiences. I don't understand how at the end of that, it doesn't break your brain experiencing that at a young age.

What he's been able to do with that experience and what he's been able to do with his life is nothing short of just absolutely inspirational to me. It's incredible. His story, being able to do what he does, considering all of that, because you know, the key difference between, you know, obviously, you know, I don't, not to compare anything, but, you know, he hadn't, he didn't have a home where he could, from listening to a story, where he can kind of retreat. It sounds like the foundation of his, the nuclear family for him was definitely very shattered. Yeah, yeah. And for me, you know, I think one of the main reasons why, even though I went off the path and became an alcoholic and went through all this stuff, one of the core reasons why. I'm still here and I'm not a statistic is because I had a home full of love that I could go back to.

So my earliest childhood memories are that of sexual abuse. When I think about, you know, when I look back and I look at my childhood and like my earliest memories, there's, you know, being a kid playing with my parents and then right next to that, there's being in a closet with a kid around my age, receiving oral sex, and then having to provide. From a kid about your age? About my age, yeah. Holy shit. A little bit bigger than me, a little intimidating.

He was my first best friend. I don't know if I would use that term. Well, it started there, but. Okay. So little kid me, you know, literally this was like the very first first. friend that I had. Random acquaintance, neighbor, somebody from nearby. Didn't live too far away.

Neighbors. Yeah. Mom and dad were friends with his mom and dad. Okay. And we spent a lot of time because of the close proximity and the closeness and age. He has several siblings. I have my brother.

Yeah. And we kind of were bracketed in that age group. How old were you guys at this time period? Best I can tell from what I can remember, I was either four or five. I don't know if I have any members from being four or five. Yeah. Not to jump around, but did he have a history of being abused? So the fun part about this is like I have not talked to him.

I haven't talked to his family. That's something that I might do in the future. Mm-hmm. Well, I ask because at the age of four or five, I don't, again, I struggle to remember anything in my life from that time period. But there was nothing of a sexual nature that I ever remember thinking about at that age. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Lincoln Logs, kid shit, right? Yeah. Well, so that's kind of what I've arrived to just based on, you know, the research proposal I wrote during college and, um, what I've written in the book and just kind of like trying to understand this issue more is that's obviously, you know, shocker. That's not normal little kid behavior. Is it abnormal though? And again, I don't know what how much would be required to be normal and how much would be required to be abnormal. Most of the time that you hear child sexual abuse, it's from an adult or some at least a drastic difference in age.

Right. This is, I think the first time I've heard about or talked with somebody where it was actually somebody very similar. similar in age. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You've got a couple different kind of perpetrator classes. CSA is defined in part by anybody that, you know, a minor either receiving unwanted touches or exposure to sexual themes by another minor or an adult.

So what he did essentially is a product of the grooming behavior that I am sure that he was undergoing. I was going to say, how would he even know? There's no doubt in my mind, especially with the grooming behavior that spilled over on to me that kept me quiet. There's no doubt in my mind that he was being sexually abused. None whatsoever. And you'll actually find a lot of times, well, maybe not a lot of times, but the way that I think about it is you kind of have like these two branches out. And, you know, I'm not an expert. You know, I'm just a survivor who went through it and then did some reading and, you know, I was trying to raise awareness.

but you have kids who are being sexually abused and perhaps they don't know what's wrong. So then this is kind of the outcome is you have them doing it to other kids, whether they're younger or, you know, as his first friend, as his best friend, he probably thought it was something that we would do. If you try to look back in like little kid mind. I guess, but little kid mind is not necessarily tooled in this. sexual direction like that. Right. Yeah. You know?

Yeah. So just with the... That's why I was asking about if he had a history of abuse or not. I mean, he wouldn't shock me either way. I guess it would make a little bit more sense. Not that you can make sense of it, but... Right. I guess the breadcrumbs would be a little bit easier to look for in a trend line.

Yeah. So whoever was doing it to him, I think the reason why he knew, like, how to, how to do it to me first and then get me to do it to him was because that's probably what was happening to him. I think. So. Is the book out? It is.

It's on Kindle or Amazon. Do you mention this in the book? I do. So, reader discretion advised. Well, you might want to contact this person because people might be able

to reverse engineer who you're talking about. Yeah, a little bit. I've taken some precautions to not expose them because here's the thing. Like, I don't, I don't blame him necessarily.

what he did, I think, set me on a path. It really messed with my mental health and everything over the years. But at the end of the day, he's a victim. You don't know that, actually. I don't, but that's my assumption is that somebody was doing this to him. Be careful with assumptions. Yeah. You know what I mean?

That's why it might be better to actually talk with the individual. Again, I'm not trying to give you advice by any stretch, but it's sometimes people are just broken. You know what I mean? Like Jeffrey Dahmer, I don't know what the fuck happened to him. Right. Or John Wayne Gacy, and I'm not that I know these particular individual cases incredibly well, but some people are just fucking sociopaths. So it's possible that he was like that because that's just the way that he was. It's also possible that he was being abused.

If he was being abused, he may need to hear from somebody like you. maybe you know what I mean to help him deal with the shit that he had to go through as well yeah if he wasn't abused then he's a fucking sociopath and you may want to know that right especially as you put him in a book yeah yeah no and I don't I don't reference him by name I leave out a lot of details I would even point obviously there's people out there that are going to sluth but um I've tried to be very careful with leaving out some identifying details because I don't have any ill well against him I've thought about, you know, I'm kind of at this point in my journey of, like, healing from all of this stuff. I've had the thought of maybe talking to him.

And it's just a very, it's a little bit daunting. And there's like a push and pull as to whether or not I should. I don't know. It's just kind of. I don't think there's a wrong answer. Yeah. And I don't know. I mean, is it necessary for my healing or like, what's my motivation to do it, you know, is where I'm,

kind of stuck because I've reached a point where this stuff bothers me a lot less than it used to. You know, I've gone to therapy. I'm continuing to go to therapy. I'm, you know, putting this book out. I'm trying to raise awareness. I've taken this stuff and I'm trying to walk a path of turning it into something positive. I'm not sure if that means I need to have a conversation with him or not. Yeah, it's fair point.

You know, I don't know. How long did it continue for? Well, there was multiple instances. Instances just like that. Yeah. And for the most part, I didn't, I don't think I repressed. You know, for some of it I straight up just didn't repress. I mean, sometimes kids go through this stuff, they repress it, and then it pops up in adulthood.

And they're like, holy shit, like this happened to me. For me, there's a good season of this abuse happening that I just, remember in vivid detail, and I always did. How long did it continue, though? Best I can tell probably a year. Okay. I don't know how many occurrences. Do you remember why it stopped?

I do. And I go through, like, in the book, the reason why I said reader discretion of bias is because I talk about this stuff explicit. Like, and I think you kind of have to. I was going to say, I think that's kind of the way. If you want to explain to people and actually get it to the front of their mind so they can confront this. Yeah.

I don't think coloring outside of the lines is the way to go. I think you go right down the middle and you just talk about it. Yeah. Yeah, I explicitly detail it. At one point, I have this memory and I kind of put it in the book. Standing next to the sink with my mom and I'm like a little kid. And I end up, you know, being scared that she's going to find this out. the stuff, but little kid me knows that this is what's happening is wrong.

Like it makes me feel gross. I don't like it. Like there's a pit in my stomach and I don't understand these feelings at the time, but like I just know it's not right and it's not good and it doesn't make me feel good. And so little kid me, you know, I'm like staying at this thing next to my mom and I'm trying to think of a way like I can ask her like how to make this stop without revealing the secret because because of the grooming and everything like what this boy was parroting to me

was like your mom and dad aren't going to love you if they find out you know you're not going to be able to... This is one of a five-year-old? Yeah. Fuck, I don't even think I could talk when I was five. Yeah, no. It's damning.

And that's kind of the nature of this issue is it's just evil. So I'm standing next time my mom at the sink And I remember asking her, I'm like, hey, if this boy's doing something that if he's playing a game, I don't want to play, like, how do I get him to stop? And she's like, well, just tell him you don't want to play anymore. And I'm like, okay, you know, like, wipe my forehead. Like, she didn't find out, okay, like, this, maybe this can get it to stop. And I remember on one specific hangout day or whatever occasion, I'm upstairs.

he goes to undue his pants and he's saying hey i want pee-pe-time and uh i'm like i don't want to do that and he says no fair my house my rules like all these little kid um phrases to negotiate i guess and i said well then i'm going to go home um and then after that like i remember he would still chide me sometimes to try to get to happen and i just didn't and it was like no And, you know, talking about this in hindsight, you can kind of, you can apply a lot of, like, understanding. But at the time, like, I'm just a little kid. You know, I don't really, I don't understand the gravity of what's going on.

I'm just like, I don't want to do this anymore. But it stopped him. What's that? It stopped him, though. Yeah, it stopped him, though. Yeah. Did he have any other close male friends? Did he have any other close male friends?

Mm-hmm. People he hung out with like you? I think he had a few. And the reason I asked, like, again, I don't know if it's a right or wrong thing to reach out and try to find answers from this person or confront them, but it's possible that you aren't the only person who's suffered through this. Right, right, yeah. It's possible that, I mean, we are hypothesizing at this point where I am that this behavior might still be continuing to this day. Yeah. Yeah, and that's part of that other pull, you know, push-pull to go and talk to him is because,

Because, you know, what if somebody else in the community is under threat? You know, and I'm not, to be clear, I'm not saying that he is like this. Today, I don't know. But, you know, is it continuing? Or did he go down the path that I went down where it was like, this is fucked up, this is wrong? I don't know. So there's some answers there that I would like.

but, you know, again, I'm just kind of in this place where do I really want to have that conversation or not? And I think I'm leaning towards yes, but I don't know. You know, I can see the fruits of it, get answers, pick his brain, see what's going on, maybe there's some justice there if the person who was doing it to him is still out there in a life. Or if you continue to do it to other people throughout the course of his life, if you could at least help them unpack that

and maybe find justice for those people. Yeah. Again, it's a hypothesis on my part. Right. Once you told him, no, did his behavior around you change? Did you get to stop hanging out as much? Or was it just that portion of when you would hang out would change?

Just that portion. So, again, close proximity, family friends. The part of the story that's, I mean, there's a few aspects of it that are kind of dark, but I ended up growing up with this kid as friends. You know, trying to think back to before I was a preteen or a teenager, I didn't always like hanging out with him, and I had other friends that I preferred hanging out with

because, like, we would hang out, and there's this elephant in the room We never talk about it. The little kids, I still don't understand what's going on other than I desperately don't want anyone to find out. So, yeah, I end up working for that family on their farm. And I'm in this close proximity with him growing up as friends up until I'm like in high school. and around, I think, puberty, I really started to get angry. Like, I really hated him.

Didn't want to be with him around him. Didn't want to hang out with him. But there was almost like this pressure there because of, you know, my parents being friends with his parents, like, to hang out. And eventually, you know, like some circumstances changed, changed that we'll just say there was some proximity changes because I don't again you know I'm not trying to expose who they are and whatnot and I didn't have to hang out with them as much you know so I kind of went my own way and then when I graduated high school I split and then

moved out moved to Saginaw was no longer anywhere near that area so you know going home to me you know that's why I title the book like suffering and silences and it's not just about me but it's about male survivors in general. But I was in a position where this shit was playing through my head every day. And I didn't feel like I could tell anybody. And then I'm also, like, forced to hang out with my abuser. And so when I go back home now, it's a weird feeling of going back to this place of, well, here's this trauma.

And then, but also, like, like, here's this beautiful home I grew up in. When did you tell your parents? So my mom and dad never found out. I ended up telling them two years ago. So I was reticent, meaning so completely silent. Reticence, just for the listeners, is a term used for, you know, the duration between the abuse and disclosure.

What you said in your email for men is almost 20 years. 20 years is the average for men. Yeah. Which goes back to my, you know, my initial comment that was kind of ingest, but mostly serious, that suffering is in silence should just be the title of a book about guys for the most part. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not a good thing.

It's not a fucking good thing. No, it's not. But our capacity to do it is astounding. Even in the face of like, hey, this is a really bad idea. And if I continue to do this, my life's going to be fucked up. Cool. I'm going to keep doing it. Yeah.

I'm going to keep doing it. Two questions. How did you decide you were going to be going to do you? to tell them or that you needed to and then how did you tell them right so uh around that period of my life um i've been sober for a year and i went to therapy for you know i found this therapist initially when um i was trying to process some of the trauma i went through uh working at spread apart apartment public safety as an officer and i kind of casually mentioned to her um you know because I'm going to school for social work and I'm doing this therapy and I kind of casually mentioned to her.

I'm like, hey, you know, I have this shit that happened to me as a kid. And I, you know, I'd kind of like to work through that at some point. But like right now, let's just focus on service-related stuff. And so I got through that and then we started to unpack what happened to me as a child. And there was some conversations about disclosure to my mom and dad. And around the same time, I was writing this research proposal into male CSA. and I just kind of saw it as this necessary path, I guess, that I needed to get to. To jump back just a second, growing up, I kind of played this game in my head related to the CSA,

where I'd set this game, this setting, I'd be the protagonist, and I'd be telling my mom and dad what happened. essentially. And I'd run out all the different reactions, like this almost like a simulation of like what I thought could happen, what might happen if I told them, you know, at varying stages of my life. And I played this game for years. So when we were talking about it in therapy, it just seemed like something I wanted to get to. So I ended up having a conversation with a family member who was vulnerable enough to share her story of abuse with me. thank you Stephanie and I ended up

from there disclosing to my older brother and from there he was kind of like the trial run because there's a lot of fears associated with even just telling him for sure and we can get into the kind of the fears associated with disclosure

but a few months later I ended up kind of typing up this letter like feverishly and trying to figure out like what's the best way to try to disclose something like this. And so I go through several editions of this letter and I'm like, you know what? I'm just going to take a letter up there with me and I'm going to give it to them and we can have a conversation. They can read it because I wasn't sure if I was going to be emotionally stable enough to talk. That's a smart way to think.

I wouldn't have thought about that. You can deliver the message and just let them ask questions from there. Saves you the emotional burden of trying to go through it. Right. Yeah. Smart. Because I wanted to be able to, like, give them this sensitive, loving delivery. And I wanted to come across a certain way, and I just wasn't sure I'd be able to talk, you know, because of the emotions and whatnot.

Is that what you ended up doing? Yeah, I ended up giving them a letter and had them read it. And we had a conversation. It was rough because. As I got older, like going into adulthood. Because, you know, as a little kid, I had this fear of people finding out because I thought I wouldn't be loved. I thought I wouldn't have a family, like all that stuff. Well, those fears evolved into, at some point, like, I don't want to hurt my mom and dad with this.

Coming to them years and years later. And I realize now that that fear is, you know, silly, but that's, as an abuse survivor, that's kind of like some of the stuff. you think about it's what keeps you reticent. At one point I decided, like, I'm just going to live with this. I'll just take you to the grave. Like, I don't have to tell anybody. Did you have kids at that time? Yeah.

Would you have wanted your kids to do that? No. No, and I think that's also part of what is a motivator. First kid was born when I was 21. That's a shit show. Yeah, oh yeah. Because you're still a kid yourself. Right.

Well, and that's the thing, too, is, Looking back, like, so my daughter's about to turn two. And, you know, we got three kids. They're awesome. I love him to death. How old are your oldest? He's seven, yeah. There's benefit to having kids that young.

Like, you're going to be, like, right now my kids, like, dad, let's go ride motorcycles. I'm like, fuck, yeah, let's go ride motorcycles. Right? If you have kids in your 50s, you might have a month where that can work for the rest of your life. Yep. Yeah. Pros and cons. But it's tough when you're young because, at least for me, I didn't know who the fuck I was.

You know what I mean? still growing up trying to figure out who I am as a person and as a man and I have children. It's rough. It's like putting together a puzzle in a dryer. Yeah, no. I was not prepared to be a dad, to say the very least. I mean, I don't know if you ever are. I was going to say, I'm not sure anybody ever is. I think in some aspects, you might be more prepared if you are older. But again, there's physical differences and your ability to be active with your kids. Pros and cons. I don't know if there's a right or wrong. Right. Yeah. There's pretty big, like for me, there's a If it definitely felt different, like being a new dad again at like 26 when my daughter was born,

um, versus a sloppy drunk at 21. And I don't know if that's just because we already had two kids at that point or just because I had finally, like, matured enough to be ready. Both could be true. But I don't know. I've been winging this shit for years. So, yeah. If anybody out there actually has an instruction manual for parenting, please send it to me because I've yet to find one that's actually.

Accurate. Yeah, my brother gave me a book. I remember what to expect when you're expecting. Yeah, something like that. Yeah. What are you laughing at, Michael? That's an actual fucking book, a piece of shit. It's just such a stereotypical name. What should they call it then? No, I was just funny.

Genius boy. I wasn't saying. Fucking slanted glasses. What should it be called? A book for parents who are expecting their first kid. What should they call it? Go ahead, author. I think a good name is, uh, What to expect when you're expecting.

Shut your mouth when you talk to me. This is the shit I have to deal with all the time. Low budget, Jamie. God. I mean, it's like laughing. It's probably one of the most published books about having kids ever. Little, you know, tortoiseshell glasses over there is laughing about, you know, advancements in human society, but I don't know.

He gave me the book. I didn't read it. Yeah. Which is kind of shitty, but. I guess at the time I was just like, yeah, I was going to see how this goes. Which, to be clear, I'm like, hey, go read books. If you think it helps you, I don't know.

You can give you some answers on the common situations you might find. What I have found in my own kids, especially as they get older, they're all so unique things expressed in different ways. And you just kind of, you do the best you can. Yeah. I mean, that's at the baseline level.

You're doing the best you can. Pretty much, yeah. Go back to when you gave your parents that letter. What did they say? Well, my mom tried to read through it. And I was sitting on the couch kind of across from her. And my dad was like next to me. Did you have two copies?

I did. I brought two. Actually, I think I had three. I was going to say, it'd be rough if you only had one. And one had to read it, then share it with the other. You got to take turns. Here you go. Fucking awkward.

Especially if my mom's like loser or shit. Exactly. Your dad's like, what in the fuck am I about to roll? on my reading. And she kept looking at me and she just was broken. And it felt very much like I was pulling this knife out of my chest and shoving it into hers. And she's in between sobs. She's saying like, can you just talk?

Like, I can't read this. The reason I wrote this is because I can't talk about it. Right. So you're going to have to suffer through this one. Right. And my dad's silent. He's reading it, but I can see his eyes are wet. And the conversation becomes a glossed-over description of what happened to me

because I didn't want to give them the full detail. Why? I don't, I think probably, like, selfishly, let me, not selfishly, it's not the right word, but I guess in my mind I wanted to spare them of like the explicit detail of the actual sexual acts and stuff like that. What would you want if it was your kid? It's a tough question. I can see myself being like, no, no, you can't.

I mean, you'd probably want to know. I tend to agree. Yeah. So kind of describing what happened to them and then they're asking me when, when would it happen? where would it happen? How long did it continue? When did it stop? Is there anything that they could do to help me?

And it was more this moment of like we're all crying and I'm trying to comfort them and they're asking me, you know, am I okay now? And certain games would start like, what could we have done different? Which doesn't give you any kind of reward playing those games. And ultimately,

you know, it was super emotionally raw conversation and all of the fears I had associated with that conversation were completely false. They embraced me. How it could have gone? Yeah, yeah, like how it could have gone. Like would they see me different? Would they, you know, the little childhood fears that would still ping up of like, oh, they wouldn't love me if they knew and stuff like that, completely melted away. The stories that we tell ourselves are really dangerous, man. Yeah, I agree. And I mean, I've always been super self-critical. And I don't think that's a bad thing.

Right. I would rather have somebody be self-critical than have an absence of critical thought. Right. Or ability to be self-critical and think they are just, you know, the world's gift. I'm like, I don't know if you guys know this, but I'm here. So feel free to rejoice. I'm like, I'll take somebody who's maybe a little bit too hypercritical than somebody is not capable of being critical. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I have a lot of, you know, sometimes I fluctuate between like negative. self-talk and like positive self-talk so yeah but that's called being a human yeah right right um so yeah from from there it went to uh you know what could we do now and um you know being somebody who this happened to i didn't and and i held on to it for so long i was right ascent for so long just in silence um there was no you know immediate justice there's no like what what actions can you take that late in the game you know i guess was my thought and I focused on telling them like, hey, this is traumatic probably for you guys.

And considering you never knew, I imagine there's all sorts of feelings of, and again, you know, this is just, you know, I'm not an expert or anything, but I imagine when a parent gets confronted with that, two decades after it happened, they probably feel like they messed up somewhere. probably feel like they missed something that didn't protect you. I can understand that and I think an aspect of that is not beneficial but also maybe they did miss something.

Yeah. Right? Like it shouldn't be a free pass either. I'm not trying to blame cast or judgment or cast blame or judgment. Today's episode is brought to you by Element. Now you're often going to see that represented as LMNT, Lima, Mike, November, Tango. You can say LM&T if you want to, or you can just say element. Co-founded by a very good friend of mine, Rob Wolf.

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You know, it's going to take time to process this. It's an old monster for me. It's brand new for you guys. How did they receive that? Pretty well. They actually took that advice. They went and saw a therapist and started getting the gears moving towards a healing process instead of remaining stagnant.

How's your relationship with them now? Good. Better or worse than before you disclose that to them? I think better. I mean, I've always had a pretty good relationship with my mom and dad. I think it allowed me to kind of be myself a lot more. I didn't feel like I was hiding something around them all the time. So it knocked down a few barriers in that regard.

Did they ever express a desire to go talk to that kid's parents? They're kind of on the fence like I am. They want to, but something my mom says is like, she wants to go talk to him, but she's so emotionally charged about it still that she doesn't think it would be like beneficial. It would probably just be some kind of fight

argument. I could be good content. You know, just thinking out loud. Trying to turn a shitty situation into something positive. I don't know. I guess you could monetize that. It could be a positive story. How about your dad? Where does he land on it?

On talking to the parents, not the situation in general, but... He's kind of right there with my mom. Um, my dad's not a super emotional dude. Like, well, I check's out. I should say like, he's, so Navy. So he's a dude. Um, yeah, he's, he's a dude.

Um, he's, uh, Navy veteran just goes to work, comes home, doesn't express too much emotion. Um, he had, I, I know he has emotions. Um, you know, he's giving me some words of wisdom and, uh, displayed emotions when I need it. But for the most part, he just kind of like operates, you know, he just, you just, does his thing, goes to work, comes home, spends time with the grandkids. Okay. You know, but he's, he wrote the, I asked him to write the forward in my book, and he obliged. And something that he said was in there was his perspective on what happened and how surprised he was that it could happen out in a community like that.

Oh, it happens fucking everywhere. That's the lie we tell ourselves, is that, well, there's two lies. One is Stranger Danger. It's the dude in the ice cream van down by the river, which I know that is real. But if you look at the stats, it is a fucking fraction. Almost everything else is people that you know. That's the fucking lie we tell our kids, too. One of the studies I quote in the book is it's exactly that.

It's only in like 7% of cases the abuser doesn't know the victim. 93% of the time, it's mom, dad, siblings. neighbor, cousin, neighbor, football coach, teacher, somebody in the church. You know, I think the more current, except there's a little bit of a dispute, I think, about the actual occurrence rate. And to be clear, like, I write specifically about, like, the male cohort of CSA victims. CSE means child sexual assault, right? Child sexual abuse. Okay.

I just want to make sure- Yeah, because I know we've used that acronym. I just want to make sure people know we're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. So in that cohort, though, you have, like, an occurrence rate that's suggested between one and six to one and four. For men or for men? For men. Between one and six and one and four.

One and four would be 25%. Yeah. One and six would be Michael checking my fucking math on that, but I think that's like 18%. It's like 16% maybe. Yeah. But, uh, so you, when you combine that with like, hey, the average reticence is 20 years. you have a issue that I believe is far too rampant because fucking 16 to 25% is huge

of our young men that are going through Well let's look at the size of the population I've kept quoting it at 360 million I think it's 340 million right now 10% of that is 3.4 million Yeah right and that's half of the 16% or the 25% if you want on the high end What is 25%

$340 million? I don't know Big number. Yeah. Where's Glover when you need them? You know what I mean? I need the quantitative here. That's still millions of people. And the average among them is, you know, they're not going to say shit for 20 years if they disclose it all.

So, um. God, human beings can be so horrible to each other. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's a disgusting issue that, you know, I don't, I think the first step towards really trying to combat it is. is it takes dudes being vulnerable enough to get out there and talk about it.

I would agree with you on that, but as you were saying that, I'm thinking to my head, right? It's an issue. The math shows that it's an issue. You and people like Seth talking about this can definitely drive awareness. Looking back at what you went through, though,

how would, you know what I mean? What do you think is you, at that age as the person going through that, are there any safety mechanisms or barriers that are actually in place or that could be put into place that you think would make an appreciable difference? Man, it's hard to, and, you know, I kind of go into that a little bit in the book. And it's hard because it's really a wolf among cheap issue. I mean, these are people with trust and access.

you might love them and it turns out they're doing this kind of thing um well that's what they need though is trust and access right yeah and uh i think honestly beyond awareness i think a lot of it falls on um the parents to try to cultivate an environment where they're vulnerable enough don't talk at them about these kind of things and again i'm not i'm not a professional i don't have my degree yet. I'm strictly talking from a survivor perspective who has young kids. All right. I'm sure there's better guidance out there, but cultivating an environment where your son feels comfortable, knows for a fact that they can come to you about this kind of thing. having the right kind of conversations that are age appropriate about what your friends and should,

you know, what your friends should be doing and what they can't be doing regarding, like, whether it's touches or seeing you naked or whatever it might be. Yeah. Is a good, like, first foot forward. Do you think it would have helped you in your situation? You've been more, again, and we're hypothesizing, right? Right. Yeah.

If your parents, because I'm, again, what can you do to stop this? Especially at the age where you were at, where you're still trying to. to figure out whether or not Santa Claus is real. Right, exactly. I still believe in Santa Claus. Yeah. So if your parents, I mean, do parents need to have, like you said, direct age-appropriate conversations and explain appropriate versus inappropriate, safe behavior versus

threatening or dangerous behavior? Do you need to check in with your kids every time they have a plate? Like, I don't know the answer to this. Right, right. Because a slippery slope of that, too, is like, you want to let your kids be kids. and you know, you can't be too vigilant. Otherwise, they're not going to be kids. You know, if you're sitting them down at four and you're saying,

hey, you know, you're talking to them about, you know, their friends shouldn't be giving them oral or touching them or, you know, I don't think they're going to understand what that is. No, they won't. So that's part of the struggle, too, is like you have to, you have to try to navigate how you're going to have those conversations with your kids in order to protect them. And, you know, in the book, like, I just encourage people,

Hey, just be vigilant. Try to be vigilant with your kids. Have the conversations when you, when, when it's appropriate. And just don't, you know, don't overly trust anybody, whether it's your kid's friends or it's people that are responsible for supervising your kids. Yeah. You know. The wolf and sheep clothing is a good analogy. It's easier to say, you know, stranger danger and that should be acknowledged by parents. but let's focus on what the stats are actually pointing us towards and it's inside that circle of defense and you got to pay attention to it I mean the math is the math on that yeah it's in your perimeter so you got to figure out how to shove it out

but I don't know I mean to be truth be told like those are those are some good immediate actions good steps and from there to actually try to mitigate and stop this issue I'm sure there's people out there smarter than me that are still trying to figure that out. Have you talked with other people who have been through similar situations?

Yeah, a little bit, a little bit. Yeah, I would be curious, you know, not think you could ever get an answer that satisfies everybody's situation or what they went through or what could have been done. But, I mean, talking to people who were on the receiving end of the abuse, I think might be where the most amount of benefit may be. what could have, what do you think could have made you more comfortable to talk about this or to approach your, you know what I mean? Maybe from that we can craft a path forward. Yeah. And, you know, what you're going up against is the grooming behavior of a abuser who is conducting trauma against a child that challenges their psychological development. psychosocial development.

And it's instilling this intense fear of anybody ever finding out. You know, so you're working against the grooming. It's tough. I mean... I still like to know how five-year-old knows how to groom somebody. Right. Yeah. And I don't think it...

You know, trying to think about what state he was in. I don't know. but I think he probably thought this was a normal thing to do with a friend. Where would he have learned that from? The abuser, whoever was abusing him. Yeah, because I find that to be, in my experience around kids, and having kids in my own, I find that to be, my experience is the exact opposite of that. Right, yeah.

Yeah. I don't know, man. I don't think it's possible to have all the answers. I'm just kicking around ideas at this point. Right. Right, yeah. It's such a, and it's such a perverse fucking issue, too. It's just, really what you have is you have a class of, you know, when I was kind of like gearing up for the paper and the book and everything,

I was going through a lot of different studies and reading some articles and stuff like that. And your perpetrator class is, you know, while there's a few different types, a lot of times they're serial in nature. That makes sense. You're doing this to multiple people. multiple kids. You know, if you look at Seth's story with the guy that groomed him and everything, those, this trauma, I think,

the childhood sexual abuse creates like a cascading effect where you have victims, you know, and I don't know, Seth's story beyond what he shared here and the conversations I've had with him. Yeah. But I speculate that the encounter he had, with the 15-year-old that he talked about that, you know, they went through CSA. I would imagine that that's kind of how this can continue.

That's what the cascading effect is. You know, abuser does sexual shit to a kid, abuses them, grooms them, is manipulating the shit out of them. That kid goes and does it with somebody else, his age or younger, right? And that's kind of one way that this goes. And then I think what you have on the opposite end, because, you know, CSA is profoundly traumatizing to kids based on, like, the literature that I present in the book. Yeah, it shatters their perception of what normal is. You're talking, exactly.

And you're talking about, you know, anxiety, depression. You're talking about the development of PTSD at some point. PTSD is common among male survivors of CSA. How could it not be? And you're like, it fucks you up as a kid. and so you either end up perpetrating the behavior and again I'm not an expert but this is what I'm speculating is you end up continuing the behavior to somebody else or you end up on this path kind of like me where it was like that was really fucked up I don't like that and whatever you

go from that branch I mean if you're able to get through without having brushes with substance abuse or anything like that, kind of like Seth did, then great. But a lot of times you have male survivors that they become alcoholics. You know, I think there are some of the stats that I had in the research prop. They're like 11.1 times more likely to become intravenous drug users. I mean, you're more, you're more likely across the board for substance use development. For high-risk behavior, yeah. Yeah. And just all sorts of psychiatric disorders. I don't see how that couldn't be the case, especially with manipulation of what your normal is at such a young age. I mean, I would be shocked if that wasn't the path that somebody went down. Right. Yeah. And then if you add that

to you have an abusive home, I mean, it's just, it's such a damning issue. And to kind of get back to it, like, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't know how you stop that necessarily. But you test to see if a shotgun fits in their mouth. Pretty much, yeah. Yeah, I, and that's the thing, too, is as a survivor of this shit, knowing that somebody probably prayed on him, and that's how this happened to me. You can test the shotgun in their mouth, too. I mean, in an ideal world where firing squads are real. Oh, no, you don't need a firing squad.

This is just one person. There's one, okay, fair enough. Obviously deputized by whatever authority would allow you to do this. Right, yeah. I think there's been cases where, I think it was in Texas, like some of the people. dude's daughter got like raped and he went and beat him to death and he got off Michael head over to YouTube and you're gonna look this is an older video that I've seen this man's son was abused the man who abused him was found guilty and I don't have a fucking clue how you're gonna find this on

YouTube so he pretended to be the phone booth yes and he takes a moving shot and smokes this dude right in his earhole I assume it doesn't show but this man's my hero. Yeah. I am not advocating for any type of behavior, everyone. I am just talking about myself and how I feel when I see somebody who abuses others, specifically children, eating a projectile in the ear at thousands of feet per se. Actually, it's a pistol, so probably was thousands of feet per second. He's like pretending to be at the phone. 100% pretending. My man had no concern for the backdrop of his shot. Shot one handed on a moving target. Thank God it was like four feet away. If you're able to find this, Michael, you're going to be here. I should be able to. What was

How does the search term that you used? His name's Gary Plosh or Plouche or something? I don't know. Let's let the Michigan pronounce it. I've seen it a bunch recently on social media. All the time. Is this it? Yeah, it's, God, you want to talk?

I can completely and utterly empathize with that parent and their actions. I'm not saying the actions are okay. They're definitely not legal. But I understand how you end up pretending to be talking on a phone at a phone bank as they parade this motherfucker by you. First off, why would they parade him through a public space? Let's just talk about logistics. People.

Most of the time you see people when they're found guilty, they get cuffed right there and they get led out of the courtroom to like an adjacent room, which I believe is probably the jail or somewhere internal in the federal building. Right. This dude's like, hey, let's just go through the lobby. I think this is uncensored. Yes. I can't play it on a show, but.

Why can't you play it on the show? Because YouTube will probably take it down. How dare they? When did you become such a pussy? If you want this video to get demonetized, we can do that. I don't care about that. You don't? Okay. All right.

Yes. Why are they walking him through the lobby? Why is he cuffed in front of his body? He's smug. Get it. Not anymore. Yes. Yes.

Pause, Michael. Actually, no, here we're good. Yeah, let's watch this again. Here's what I love. Pause. Absolutely nobody is doing anything to the dude laying on this. ground. You're like, oh, thank God.

I mean, first off, violated many rules of firearm safety. But I'm here for it, right? Risk versus reward. Listen, completely and utterly. Now they're checking on the guy. Hey, hey, can you hear me? Listen to me through your third earhole.

Man, can't hear shit. Fuck you. Oh, fuck you. That is what I'm talking about. Yep. Yep. Yep. Give him a little kneel.

What you really need is. You've got to flick him in the eye. Let's make sure. Look at this. I am a cop. Here is my badge. Why was he holding none of? Maybe he didn't want to get shot.

There's a man dead. Fuck that guy. I am so here for that. No. Okay. Cool. Michael, you're amazing. Good job.

Yeah, you're welcome. I've seen this video so many times. I know. Yeah. It's a pretty good one. I am not promoting this type of behavior. I'm just saying that it warms my heart. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And that exact instance only, again. Not saying anybody should do anything like that. I understand how as a father you end up thinking that that is what you're going to do. Yeah. No. And that's something too. Like as somebody who goes through CSA when you have kids, I mean, I think everybody fears their kids having something like that happen to them.

So that's an interesting point. How do you deal with this with your kids? We had talked about, right, do you have these type of conversations? What would you, if you know that this is possible because you lived through it, you've had the conversation and you've had your parents ask you, what could we have done differently? Right. What, I mean, what is your approach as a father? And also, what are your wife's thoughts?

Well, so when I talk about, when we talked about disclosure earlier, I wanted to say, like, I went 19 years without saying anything, and then I told my wife when my oldest boy started walking. So as a new dad, I'm sitting there and I'm watching him walk, and I'm like, oh, my God, this is my nice. number one fear, you know, this should have been. Yeah, could it not be. And, you know, some of the research that I've done suggests that men in particular regarding this issue have like a difficult time maintaining relationships. And especially when they step into a parental role,

they have a lot of fear around approaching that topic because it happened to them. And those relational struggles can really dampen your ability to be a parent. In my case, when you're a I'd be drunk and just adds to it. But, you know, you fast forward to eventually tell my mom and dad four years later. But when with my kids, my seven-year-old recently had a piece of paper sent home kind of discussing some of those issues from the school. From the school. Really? Yeah.

So a proactive approach from the school. Yeah. Yeah. Were they sending that home to disclose to you as a parent of what they were covering in class? Yeah, kind of. Well, they sent home. They wanted parents to go over it with their kids. Okay.

So it was more, hey, we are making this request. Yeah. From as a, the school board, whatever it may be, we want you to talk to your kids. Okay. I mean, I didn't get them a lot of credit for that. I was going to say, I like the on the nose approach. Yeah. Yeah.

Whether anybody does anything about that, though, is probably a different story. But I like the fact that they're addressing it head on. Yeah. Yeah. And it goes over, you know, like, hey, nobody should want to see you. naked, adults shouldn't be trying to get you to keep secrets. And it was a good little bit of information. So me and him had that discussion with that paper in hand. And it helped. But as somebody who went through it, I had a more developed conversation with him after that. And the

main thing that I told him was, hey, you know, no matter what happens to you or no matter what you do, you can come to me with anything I love you beyond measure there is nothing that could ever happen to you that would change that What if you is collecting human heads in jars I'd be visiting him in prison

But uh Would you turn him in? Depends what kind of What kind of heads are we talking like Which is what's the victim class? He's a teenager here You open his door and he's wearing somebody else's skin like a leotard What do you do?

Initially scream probably Yeah. I go, oh my God. Full Mr. Bill. Just tuck everything. Either. Have you ever watched Silence of the Lambs? Yeah.

You know who Mr. Bill is? No, I haven't watched it a long time. God, damn it. You haven't seen it? I have. It's just been a while. It puts the lotion on the skin man. Oh, yes.

I love the Joe Dirt version of that. It's hilarious. All right. But anyways, your child is wearing another man's skin like a leotaur. Or a woman you can pick in your, what do you do? There's nothing your kid could do

that could change how you feel about him? I feel like you can either shut the door quietly and live with this monster. I'm fucking. You know what's wild is that some people, the skin with the leotard thing and probably the jars is obviously a touch much and I don't know what it says about me that I think about those things. But man, there's some parents out there who, you know, here's an example for you. Somebody's kids or kid decides to go fucking shoot up a school. Holy fuck. how could you ever say anything that that is the most horrendant like there's no excuse right for that

whatsoever do you still not love your kid do you know what I mean like yeah that's real tough fuck man that's got to be a nightmare yeah um I can't imagine yeah I mean as much as I was joking about the situation right there there's actually people out there who live with that and that's a fucking tough road to hoe yeah yeah it is um but yeah so that's that's kind of the conversation I have with him and then you know it's a lot of conversation between me and my wife about what to look out for. How about does it change, say they have a friend come over or they're going to go over to a friend's house?

I mean, one thing I probably would make sure is that there's no unsupervised time alone, right? But how do you control that at somebody else's house, right? Right. You can, that lotus of control could shift depending on where the person is. Yeah, as your kids grow, you know, like something I write about a little bit.

It's like innately, you lose proximity. therefore you lose some ability to protect them as they grow. As your, so your oldest is six or seven, you said? Be seven, yeah. Yep. So my oldest is now 21. Their social circle has far more influence on them than I ever will anymore in their life. I went and saw my son today and I was talking with a guy that he works for.

And my son's interested in getting a racing track suit for his motorcycle. Okay. And we were talking about his ability to, uh, find women that would find that attractive and the difficulty of doing so seeing a mad fully clad in a skin tight leather suit um and the guy goes why don't you just tell him not to do it and i said because he's 21 at this point the best i can do is make suggestions and hope that some of them crack the door and he actually hears him in high school he was spending more time around his friends than he was with me where his tea you know what i mean like the the older they get the less

influence you actually have as a parent. Right. Right. Which will keep you up at night. Yeah. Yeah. He's already, I mean, he calls me bro sometimes. They're picking up all these little phrases from his friends at school. When he calls you bro, just say back to me, hey man, don't be suss. Don't be sucks. Yeah. Hit him with that. That would be, that would fit actually. Yeah.

Because he's like, bro, it's suss. You know, he says stuff like that. He says stuff like that. Yeah. I learned all these terms from my daughter, by the way. I don't know what any of this shit means. I hear her talking to her friends and then I try to awkwardly repeat the shit. that they're saying at times that I, since I don't know what it means, but I know when it's not appropriate, and then I say it at those times. Yeah, yeah, fair enough. Yeah. It's very giving.

Yeah, he's awesome, though. That little dude, you know, to kind of get back to, like, how this shaped my life. And Markey, my oldest is a big part of that because having a kid at 21 and running away from his trauma, like, there's a few different things in my soul. story that I could spend some time on that came after this abuse. I mean, man, it was just a miserable time. I didn't realize it at the time, but, you know, again, I'm thinking about this abuse all the time every day as a kid and going into high school.

Like, I started having this really intense chest pain and didn't really understand why. Like at first I thought I was dying, but, you know, it was a little bit dramatic. but um yeah but what did you know i mean you're young kid right and you know i just we're in a period now where mental health is more discussed and it's more for sure you know less stigma yeah less stigma about it um you know social workers and in high schools and whatnot and with the school apparatus out there trying to identify things and provide resources and that's cool but um when i was in high school I just didn't know what was happening And I would be like in class

Just so you know I don't think anybody does Right yeah I look back at high school I'm lucky I fucking survived To me this is a little bit Same here too Yeah

Because I was troublemaker I mean I wasn't trying to be a troublemaker I just didn't know anything And I thought I knew everything Yeah I had these ridiculously formed opinions Based on absolutely no knowledge or wisdom whatsoever Or context on the greater world Yep.

Yeah. I mean, I graduated high school as 18 years old. I was an idiot. Baby. Yeah. Baby's it. 18. Yeah.

An adult on paper. I look back of that fucking hilarious. Right. But hey, I could join the military and get issued a machine gun, which actually I'm pretty thankful for. That was pretty awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's important. So, yeah, man. I mean, I'd just be in class and I'd be like, so, and also part of the story is like, I was born with degenerative hearing a lot. and tinnitus. You were born with tinnitus? Yeah, I was born with it. First I've heard of that, that sucks.

Yeah, yeah, due to the, it was like nerve damage during childbirth or whatever. I wear hearing aids. They're called lyrics. And they sit next to your drum. Can't see them, enables me to hear. Can you do the Bluetooth to your phone? No, I can't.

But there's hearing aids out there where you can. That'd be dope. You could listen to music and people think you're listening to them. Oh, shit. Yeah, no. When I get annoyed with my kids, I just try them off. Yeah. Not really, but it's a method.

If I really want to get some good sleep, I do it with my hearing aids off. How much can you hear without your hearing aids? At this stage of the game, because it's a continual loss, I'm not sure what the actual reading was. Probably not much. Not good. Like 50%. You said it's right up against the eardrum? Yeah.

Do you put them in there or does a doctor? I put them in. You know, Michael, why don't you pull up lyrics? hearing aids just so people can see them because they're actually really cool how do michiganian spell lyric lyric l-y-r-i-r-i Michael why does our goddamn screen do that I don't know it's really annoying though there it is right there boom holy cow yeah it just kind of looks like a shooting your pro yet um out of sight out of mind around the clock yep seem uh waterproof i'm assuming no so like the only thing i can't do is swim underwater can you take shower yeah

okay yep yep they uh there's not battery changing. Holy shit. That's way deep in there. Oh, yeah. Yep. And I mean, you start out, like, they don't let you put those things in yourself because you can hurt yourself.

Yeah. I've been wearing them for a good decade now. Yeah, months at a time can vary depending on patient into the air conditions. They come to me and I swap them out when they're dead. Keeps going down, Michael. This is fascinating. So. Do they have an ordering site, Michael?

I think this is it. I think you could really go through like a provider. Maybe. I just want to get Michael some. Provider. Yeah. they're pretty red. I have all these things I want to like fuck with Michael.

I want to have him wear like chemical biological and radiological stuff with a gas mask for a show. I'm never able to follow through with it though. We have so many things we've said we're going to do and I haven't done something, Michael. Shame. That's cool. All right. Fair enough. Yeah.

So I had this like, but of course, you know, so I started wearing hearing aids when we might as well just get into it. So I started wearing hearing aids as a young kid that got it pretty early on. So I had like this big, bulky, like green hearing aids. How did that work out for you as a kid? I thought it was the shit until I went to school. Yeah. What'd your classmates think? Ridiculed me a lot.

Young human beings are the fucking worst. They are, dude. I say this as somebody who was one of the worst of the young humans. Little kids are savage, dude. They just don't know. They don't. They just don't know how impactful the things that they say can actually be. Yeah.

You can have a flippant conversation or a comment and forget about it in an instant. And some of the things you say can stick with people. for a lifetime. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, so like I was wearing this hearing aid and kind of getting me a fun of and then like it progressed to the point

where I needed two hearing aids. Would they call you? Well, a very prominent one I can remember was Goldilocks because, you know, I don't have any hair now, but back in the day I used to try to overcome and like hide the dual hearing aid action. I grew my hair out and as a kid I had super blind. hair.

Okay. So then they started calling the Goldilocks. That's not that bad. What else? It's not that bad. No. Just a lot of like, if I didn't hear anything, they'd be like, what? You know, like, deaf kid, like that kind of stuff.

That's the shit my dad does. He needs hearing aids. And I'll say a thing like, hey, dad. Yeah. And he'll sit there. I know this motherfucker can hear me too, by the way. I'm like, hey, dad. He'll finally look up.

I'm like, dude, you need hearing aids. And he goes, what? Huh? Huh? He's been doing that shit to me, Michael, just since I was a little kid. So no, I don't even engage. I'm like, I know what you're doing. That's funny.

Yeah. It's not funny. He's a fucking pain in the ass. I'd be careful, though. Like, I mean, you was, your dad was in Nam, wouldn't he? What does that have to do with anything? I don't know. I'll beat that old man's fucking ass.

Fair enough. I will put a Lego on the floor and he will trip over it and break his fucking hip. That guy could be ambushed by a fucking pillow on the floor at this point. Fair enough. NOM was a long time ago. That's true. That's true. Yeah, that's true.

But yeah, so like not like pretty topical stuff like these days, but as a kid it was like really a bummer. It's rough. And especially because like I had this CSA going on. So like I was already having like. Yeah. You already have a super malleable. I was already vulnerable. And so naturally I ended up deciding not to wear them at all after about sixth grade.

And the agreement was with my parents and I was if you can keep your grades up, then you don't have to wear them. Did you kind of learn how to read lips a little bit? A little bit, yeah. That's going to say, there's going to be some way you're going to compensate. Yep, yeah. So, 80 student. Probably could have done better with the hearing aids because there was a few, there's a few occasions where I misheard the assignment.

But, you know, kept my grades up and didn't have to wear them. And at some point along the lines, I mean, um. Do you ever take a music class? Music? Yeah. I think we had, like, music in, like, fourth grade. I was going to say, you probably would have sucked in that class with your hearing aids.

Oh, yeah. Probably. Over there playing hot cross buns backwards on the fucking record. You ever play hot cross buns, Michael? No. Hot cross. What? I know what it is, but trying to sing along.

My tongue. Did you have to play a wooden recorder when you were younger? Nope. We had a guitar class. Did you have to play a wooden recorder? No, but I was in the church choir. You guys are soft. You guys are soft as fun.

Hot cross buns on the wooden recorder, which was probably shared by 17 other children. Just, jag, like him. Just freaking just slobbering all into this. fucking thing. Harmonica's just... I'll be honest with you, I think I could still play

Hot Cross Buns right now. I mean, it's a pretty simple song. Really? You couldn't play it. I could figure it out. I know you could figure out how to get the recorder in your mouth, but I don't think you could actually play anything with it.

It would fit right in there like it just a like an old coin purse. It would just slide right in. You'd purse those lips and just like... Get it. The mothership docking. You know what I mean? Like the Starship Enterprise coming home.

We get that part. Yeah. They would have to pull it away from you for being Tuesday. Oh, I know. Like, hey, stop using your teeth, Michael. It's just hot cross buns. Yeah. Are you looking up over there right now?

I don't know. He's scheming something. Just trying not to listen to you. That would have been rough, not being able to hear music class. Yeah, it was interesting to navigate for sure. And, you know, part of my story is like I want to focus on, you know, not just the CSA, but, you know, what I've kind of accomplished since it, which, you know, I'm entirely average and everything. I think, though, I don't think we can overstate the importance of that.

There's another thing that I think is important about people coming forward and talking about their experiences. Because there's multiple ways it can go, right? The worst expression is it destroys somebody and they take their own life or abuse. You know what I mean? Like some horrendous outcome. Yeah. But if people also have examples of men, we'll just talk about men specifically, since we're talking about, Seth was just on this week. I don't know when this episode will come out.

It'll be a couple weeks. But same theme. People who weren't broken by it, who were able to work their way through it and what they've been able to do by it, that example, I think can keep some people on the path. And I think that's important. Yeah. Because, you know, just because in the grand scheme of things, I've heard you talk about like post-traumatic growth. And, you know, you can go that way. It's not necessarily easy.

Or just like you said, you can go down on the other. other path. Yeah. And for me, you know, you know, with the CSA, with the disability, for as long as I can remember, you know, again, my dad was in the military. I got a lot of families that were in, or family members that were in. So for as long as I could remember, I wanted to be in the Army. That's just how it was. And what would you have done? So I actually, when I went to enlist, I went to go 13 Fox. I have no idea what that is. Cav Scout. I think I've heard that. I think back then was. I think the recruiter told me it was fire support specialist.

I was a recruiter's my dream. So, but. Just because a recruiter told you that doesn't actually mean that it's true. I know. I recognize that now. We should start with that premise right there. Will you look that at Michael Army 13 Foxshot? Yeah. Which is the phonetic alphabet for F. Cavs scout is saying 19 Delta. Well, it is Army 13 Foxstra. That's what I'm going to look up right now. There's a good chance he lied to me. But knowing what I know now listening to a podcast like this, it's like

Fire Support Specialist. Fire Support Specialist. Fire Support Specialist. Fire Sports Specialist. Yeah, so that's what it was. Okay. Fire Sports Specialist. And so tried to enlist in high school. And I think part of that was like this desire to be somebody who could protect himself and others stemming from the trauma. I mean, think about as far as somebody who experienced that and they wanted to go after or pursue perpetrators.

or whatever word connects with that person, the armed services, especially a job inside of the armed services directly related to combat arms, is actually a really good path for that. Yeah, yeah. That doesn't surprise me at all. That desire for people to go down that path,

I'll use the term bully, right? Like people who hate bullies, like, well, this is a job where I can fucking smash bullies. Again, the word doesn't necessarily directly apply to maybe the enemy of our country, but I think people get the point. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, that was like,

what I was going to do. So parents signed for me early because I was 17 at the time. And so I'm going to like future soldier training or whatever with the recruiter and we're doing things. Do you have like lasers and stuff? No. Because that's what I think when you say future soldier training. Yeah, no. Literally.

Starship troopers. We would either sit in his recruiting station with like all the other army recruits and he would just teach us stuff about the army or we would go. go to like PT. On one occasion, we did like a simulated helicopter crash. Did you guys actually have a helicopter? Uh-uh. No. Okay.

No, we literally walked out onto some state land. So he's like, okay, here's what we're doing. And, you know, this is the middle of summer. It's hot. Mosquitoes are out. And he's like, we're your PT. So, like, I wore my gym shorts to cut off or something like that. And we go out in the woods, and we're just getting ate the fuck up by mosquitoes the entire time.

I guess that could be a portion of a helicopter crash. I guess. And so he's like, all right, here's what we're doing. Like, simulated helicopter crash. You're hurt. You're hurt. You have to carry her. And we just went to like walk into the woods.

And I was like, okay, this is. That's called a board recruiter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So anyways.

But I'm also picking up like all the Army swag. I can carry home. So like, shirts, bags, all that stuff. But I end up going to maps. And I scared. I score a three on the hearing test. Yeah, the old booth doesn't lie. Right.

Yeah. Well, dude, it was like, I put the headphones on, and I got to have tinnitus, so I have a hard time anyways. And I'm deaf, so I'm, like, trying to press the button, and I press in the wrong cadence or whatever too many times, so then it yells at you. Yeah. So then you're more deaf.

Yep. And, yeah, they... The booth doesn't lie. No, the longer the short of it is I ended up... getting disqualified. Yeah. So I was super bonk because that's like what my dream was. And then fortunately, I kind of had this epiphany that I need a plan B.

And I had been neglecting school because I'm like, ah, school, whatever. I'll go in the army. I'll do college later. Like whatever. But I'm like, how can I serve in a different way now that I can't serving in the army. And a couple weeks after I got the DQ, I was on the local fire department at 17. Had to go get like screening. My mom and dad had the sign. And then because I was going to turn 18 during training, they're going to welcome me on just a little small town, rural department,

middle of nowhere. They didn't care about the hearing stuff? No. Did you tell them? Um, no. So what happened after? No, no, I don't. So what happened after, uh, I got DQed was my mom took me to this place called Hearing Consultants in Sterling Heights. Um, shout out to Donna, um, and Melissa, uh, to go and try out these lyrics, these hearing aids. And, um, I got them and was like, since I hadn't been wearing hearing aids since like sixth grade. It had to be a life-changing.

Yeah, it was crazy because, like, I could remember being able to hear better with the hearing aids, but, like, going six years without them. Yeah, that's a long stretch. I realized me, I'm like, yeah, no shit, I didn't get in. I can't hear anything. So I got those, and then I was like, can I be a firefighter with these in, you know? And they were like, yeah, we have cops that use them. We have Twitter EMS, all that stuff.

I'm like, okay, cool, you know, so I didn't even mention them in the fire department. I just showed up with them in. And went through Firefighter 1, which cool part of that in Michigan, I don't know if they do it anywhere else because the fire departments across the U.S. are all just different depending on what they're doing and whatnot. But you got to do like ice water rescue training, which was like super cool. It's about half the year probably where you guys live. Yeah, well, yeah. Yeah. Well, you'd be surprised how many people that are from Michigan that die out and like ice fishing stuff?

Ice fishing and like. So what usually gets them? I know they cut a hole in the ice. Does the whole thing just break free the little houses that they're in and just go under? Well, you have people out there driving trucks out on the ice. That's what I'm talking about. So. Like they're just driving along and all of a sudden they auger in.

Yep. Fuck yeah. Yeah. Well, you got to time it right, you know. Or, or here's a controversial thought. Don't do that. Yeah. Yeah.

And I'm in that camp. My brother is not. I don't, listen, I know walleye tastes good. And it's like a staple of our state, but like I'm just not. Can you just walk out? there? Yeah, yeah. You can walk, put up a tent, drill a hole, sitting here, you know, get a little buddy. There's a zero percent chance of having your vehicle break through the ice if you don't take it onto the ice. Right. Right. Yeah. So that's how I look at things like that. Exactly.

Yeah. I've never, like I've, you know, growing up out in the middle of nowhere in Michigan, like you, you know, my family hunted, we all fished. Yeah. So that's just kind of like what, what you do. It's a decent part of the culture. But, uh, yeah, man. Um, I forgot where I was going with all that but oh you're talking about the fire department your journey into the fire department yeah so like i get through training and you know at a young age 18 and i'm not saying training was anything crazy like you're just learning um fire stuff um but uh you know start rolling up to medical calls start going to fires my first fire that i went to was in the middle of january it's like 18 degrees out big uh barn fire just like massive shed with a hay mow in it

A what? A hay mow. Do you think I know what that is? You Michiganians use words that, what are you talking about? So a haymow is, it's like where you stack all your hay bales inside of a barn or a structure. So a stack of hay bales? It's a stack of hay bales. It's a big stack.

Okay. Big stack. Yeah, I could see how that would burn. Apparently, so this is crazy. I don't, it's crazy. But if you stack your hay and some of it is wet. It'll start itself on fire. It will start itself on fire.

So. So, yeah, the fire that popped my fire cherry was out in freezing weather with a hangout that just would not go out in this massive shed, sheet metal barn. And we were out there for like eight hours, just getting after it. So it was really cool. It's really fun. A lot of people, I feel like when they talk about their fire experience, like 90% of the job, like if you're there to do it and you have a disarm. desire to do it, it's fun. You know, it might suck. It's physically demanding, whatever, but that's true of any job for clarity. Right. Yeah. But, you know, there's that 10% of, like,

the shit that you're going to see, you know, that's going to bother you. And so there was a little bit of that when I was 18, but then, you know, when I moved out, um, I got onto the Saginaw Township Fire Department Station 1. Saginaw is probably similar to, um, Kelleispell and like size wise. Yeah, size wise. Yeah. and there it was every day, every other day, going to a call, whether it's car wreck, false alarm, smoke, actual fire, stuff like that. So I found myself, like, trying to serve in this other way, and I ended up picking, that's kind of like when I picked up my PTSD diagnosis as I was kind of going to these things. And when I look back, I can see that it was more the childhood trauma that was influencing a lot of these behaviors that I was getting. Like the drinking, I had a lot of anger.

I got diagnosed with, like, clinical anger issues at, like, 19. The nightmares, like, the general, like, irritability. In hindsight, I think a lot of was come from the CSA, but I didn't feel. comfortable disclosing it. I was still under like, I'm just going to live this in secret. But I went to a therapist and so that I started seeing therapy for like fire related. So I talked about the fire related things. And ultimately it just didn't change any kind of like the course of my life after that. Because I wasn't targeting the real issue. That's not to say I wasn't seeing death or situations that are just rotten.

Yeah, you were treating the symptoms, not the root cause. Yeah, yeah. And what did I do as a young firefighter who was kind of just clean to this victimhood as I went and drank over it instead of actually really talking about it. I mean, I talked about it in therapy, but I was still like, if I had a bad call, I'd just go home and drink. And I isolated a lot. You know, with male survivors of CSA, like,

isolationism is kind of a coping mechanism. You know, at the time, that's what you think you need to do in order to protect yourself. And I think it manifests, at least it did for me in adulthood where, like, dude, when I moved out, like, I wasn't going to see my friends. Like, I'd come home every once in a while, visit my parents. I'd hang out with my boy, Freddie. It's my cousin. And we were tight growing up, so I'd hang out with him.

but otherwise like I go to college didn't make any friends college um some people are like that though yeah yeah when did you meet your wife um so I met my wife shortly after I graduated high school she was a senior um so you're behind me and uh yeah I mean so you knew her through this time period when you were a firefighter all that stuff yeah did she ever say anything to you about your drinking all the time all the time and You know, part of the story is also, like, I am the protagonist and I am the antagonist. You know, I'm both. I was such a, like, my wife, so to give you an idea of, like, what my wife was coming from, like, I don't want to get too deep into it because it's in the past and everything's better now,

but she did not have, like, an ideal childhood. there's a lot of substance abuse involved with her dad and some other things that she went through her and her little brother and so when she met me and we became romantic and we're dating and got into a relationship like I was in the spiral just like drinking and like poor mental health and she didn't want me to do it and like an absolute piece of shit, I just ignored her. And she stayed, though. And she stayed.

My wife, you know, throughout all of this, like, she's an absolute rock star. I don't. I have done enough that should have driven her away. Did she ever give you an ultimatum? A few times, yeah. Yeah. But, you know, when I was still drinking

and still in this state of subscribing to a victim mentality I was narcissistic and manipulative. She would give me an ultimatum and I would find a way to manipulate it to where she couldn't do that. We went through, you know, plenty of seasons where she would be like, hey, you need to stop or else I'm leaving, you know, and I'd get better for a little bit and then I'd go right back to it. Yeah, that's the most insidious type. So, Yeah, so we met and I ended up moving, you know, fast forward a few years. We're in a relationship. We'd been on and off constantly because I was just a piece of shit.

And she would dump me. She dumped me several times up until we got solid. And I go from being on the fire department to now I'm working corrections and doing adult corrections at a minimum security. And moved to Bay City, which is just a job. just town over from Saginaw in Michigan and same size whatnot um and she moves in with me and I'm still drinking and on the outside dude I'm like listening to um or rather like trying to be kind of like all these dudes that have podcasts now that like I'm trying to emulate right so like jaco you know like

extreme ownership and like discipline and getting after it and trying to spin it where like hey I'm but like I'm not, I'm not letting this trauma, like, get the best of me or whatever. And, like, trying to, like, this really odd and confusing, just hypocritical path. Did you know you were lying to yourself at the time? Internally, yeah, because I'd go back and drink. I'd be a piece of shit to my wife, my girlfriend at the time. But on the outside, I'm trying to, like, showcase this dude who's, like, strong. and doing these things.

The alpha male, if you will. Yeah, the alpha male. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Meanwhile, living is a class C, like car carrier, but... What does that mean? Well, you got an alpha male.

You got a beta. Charlie, you know, or C or whatever. Michael, I have a question for your generation. What does Sigma mean? Is that better than Alpha, or is that lower? No, Sigma's like the best. Sigma is the apex? Yeah.

Because Tyler claims that he's Sigma, and it's clear. he's not obviously. I just didn't know what he meant. Yeah, Sigma is better than Alpha. Okay, cool. Okay, so you were not Sigma. No, no, I was the exact opposite. Okay.

So, yeah, turn 21. I go from adult corrections to juvenile corrections and still just drinking a fuck done. I mean, six of them Milwaukee best and four shots every night. Put on all that weight, and it's like undermining my... my ability to do the job, working juvie, and completely shattering, like, my self-image, which I always struggled with anyway, so now I'm fat, so now it's worse.

What am I going to do? Am I going to get better? Or am I just going to keep drinking to drown all those emotions? The answer was drink more, you know, so I'm still drinking. And, you know, I should mention I had a moment where I went to a work party. and I'm hanging out with them, and we're all drinking in and having a good time, and I'd done that with them a few times before. But that particular party was after I went to a call with a PI,

or a pin in for the folks listening. It means you've got to cut somebody out of a car. That person happened to be dead, so it was a fatality and a PI. Passenger was stuck in the front seat with his dead buddy. but uh so you know what did i do well in this period of my life was let's get drunk oh there's a party tonight i'll just get drunk anyways so then i do the awesome thing that i used to do which was i'm going to get drunk and tell everybody about it at the party and get sympathy and enjoy the social benefit of that and uh got blackout drunk don't remember anything after absolutely crushing it playing

some pong and uh is that being ping pong no just pong just throwing ping ping pong balls back back and forward trying to get into the cup you ever played that drink beer pong yeah beer pong yeah sorry no i'm not a fucking child i've never played that game fair enough fair enough um crushing it playing beer pong and uh i wake up and i'm in a different shirt and i'm like oh that's fucking weird okay whatever and uh i leave i'm super hung over and i'm in a different shirt and things are weird and things are So I split and I get a much text from friends who are at the party. And the gist of it is is one of them woke up

while I was actively choking on my own puk in the middle of the night. Tipped me over, probably saved my life. And it took care of me, I don't remember any of it. And my attitude at the time was, and we can get into later, like, trying to separate who you were versus who you are now and how important that is. But my answer at the time was, well, I should have just died anyways.

Like, whatever. And it was super, super fucking immature. But so anyways, like, you know, me and my wife were living in Bay City. She moves in with me and my first is born. I'm going to do this juvenile corrections thing. And I'm still just on this fucking negative path. and you know one night um i think it was before i started working for sdPS um but i'm getting tossed up on the couch which was kind of the norm um i was saying that i'm you know staying

up just in case markey wakes up but really um i just wanted to stay up by myself and get drunk which usually that's that's what the norm was and uh because i wasn't drinking with anybody there was no reason to celebrate, even though I gave myself every reason imaginable to be like, oh, today it was shitty, let's drink. Oh, today it was great. Let's celebrate. Like, there's no fucking celebration going on. It's just drinking. It's drinking by yourself. Well, like you said, at that time, you considered yourself to be an alcoholic. And, you know, later on in the night, I'm super sauced and, like, I'm thinking about this fucking childhood sexual abuse and I'm thinking about things in my adult life. And, you know, my self-image is just

gone and uh i'm like just in the pits of fucking just mental hell and uh so i kind of stubborn i stumble over into the kitchen and i pull out a kitchen knife and i put it to the to my left elbow uh the crook of my left elbow rather and uh i'm like this is it i'm just going to fucking do it. While my oldest child is asleep in a bedroom just down the hall and my wife is

in her bed and that's the point that I had arrived to with my own choices and this victim mentality and just not being well. And I'm like sobbing and I kind of stop that shit

and I'm super drunk and I start getting mad like I'm going to will myself into this like just thinking like this is it they don't deserve me or I don't deserve them rather I'm a piece of shit dad I'm not a good partner this shit happened to me was a kid or when I was a kid I'm just going to end it you know and uh fortunately

you know out of nowhere like my wife comes up behind me and i didn't hear her come up i didn't anything like that she's not right next to me but i hear her voice behind me and she's like oh my god what are you doing she's like oh my god nick what are you doing and i turn and i'm the the best thing i can muster so like immediately she's here now i'm crying and so the best thing i can muster at the time was you stay the fuck away from me which is like nice one shakespeare um and uh she's like is that how you want us to find you? Is that how you want your son to find you?

You know, she could have split. She could have, it could went, you know, I don't know, but she took a step forward and she said that and I fucking dropped the knife in the sink and just collapsed, you know, crying. And, you know, there's moments in your life where at least in mind, I can look back and I'm like, this should have been.

what broke me out. This should have been the moment where I like self-actualized. And that wasn't it. So how'd you get from that point to where you were today? Well, um,

so, you know, didn't go to therapy after that. I kind of cut back on my drinking a little bit, but I was still just getting sauceed every night. Just maintenance drinking. What's that? Not a big deal.

Just maintenance drinking. Yeah, maintenance, pretty much. Right. Right. Exactly. Which is a joke. That is a big deal. But the number of people, I'm not, I don't drink as much anymore. I just still have to drink every night. I'm like, what are you talking about? Right. Yeah. Well, to be clear, too, like I should say, if you can drink and you can have fun, like, go do it. Like, I'm not going to stop you. I have nothing against that. I can't. I don't stop. I need it. You know. Well, that's an important differentiation. People have to recognize that for themselves. Nothing comes without consequence. All choices have consequence. drinking, you know, again, when you're younger is one thing.

When you start suffering from AGE, it'll change things for you a little bit. As your life changes, it'll change things. As your occupation changes, it may change things. If you can manage it, awesome. If you can't, don't touch it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So from that point, I mean, I kind of drank less, but, you know, still going down this bath of service or whatever. I'm doing corrections. And then eventually I end up quitting because corrections is fucking, like, kid corrections at least is that those people are seriously underpaid and they're dealing with a lot of shit. Yeah, I bet. And I was sick of it. So went from there to getting hired by STPS.

And I had a brief stint of sobriety in there that probably lasted about six months. And this is something like when I talk to other people that have been recovering from alcoholism, they're trying to get sober. it's easy for me to say like oh eventually I just ended up stopping but that's not the truth like the truth of the matter is like throughout all those years of drinking like I wanted to quit I knew I wasn't on the right path but I just didn't have the strength of the gumption to get through it and have the self-control. Chances are if you try to quit drinking you're going to quit for a period or try to and then you're going to end up right back where you're at but the important thing there is like

for me, later on, after I finally got sober, I had to realize there is no moderation for me. There is no date where I'm like, oh, eventually I can have a drink and it'll be fine. That's important. And what broke me from that initial sobriety was I was hanging out with my dad, my brother.

And I'm like, I could have a beer or two. A month later, I'm back to drinking heavy every night. What's kept you on the path the last three and a half years? honestly had to realize that I deserve a better life than getting drunk every day. The crazy thing is, is you would think because you have kids and because you have a wife, that those are going to be your reasons enough. Like you're going to, oh, should I have a kid now. And maybe that's the case for a lot of people.

I don't know. But for me, I was just so fucking broken. and subscribe to this victim mentality that I didn't, they just weren't enough of a reason for me to quit. So you've used the term victim mentality a few times, quite a few times today. What do you view yourself as now? Not a victim, you know.

What do you view it as? Survivor? I don't want to put words in your mouth, I'm just asking. I like Survivor more than victim. But that's all. also kind of a term where you're like, like you're, you're kind of identifying with, I guess, what happened to you and like, you're going to classify yourself by it. Maybe.

Maybe. But I'm not saying put it on a business card. I'm saying the way that you talk to yourself internally. Yeah. You know what I mean? It doesn't have to be on your sleeve at all times. I'm just, I'm wondering. Right.

When you look into the mirror, what do you see now? I see somebody that's trying to stay on the path. You know, I don't see my. as I don't see myself as who I was as a drunk. I don't see myself as the little kid. I see somebody who's grown enough at least. Most days, some days I just look in the mirror. I'm like, God, you got to lose some weight of your piece of shit.

You're like, you did this. That's what I open most days with? Yeah, what's up, you piece of shit? You want to rush your teeth? What's up, motherfucker? How are you doing? Me again. Hi, get after it.

But yeah, dude. It's a lot more positive these days. And what started with that, what kept me sober. was I had to love myself enough because I didn't love myself for years because of the abuse, because of the choices I was making as an alcoholic. Like there was a lot of guilt and shame associated with that, especially because like I was just stabbing people in the heart left and right that love me. They're my friends that wanted nothing but to help me and support me.

And I just was not a good dude during that period of my life. so you know I had to realize like I don't deserve this chiefly I had to do this for me because then I can be better for my wife I can be better for my kids but it's got to start with me and part of my you know I don't disagree with any one given way to get sober like as long as it's not hurting somebody else like if it keeps you sober fucking do it I would like I'm a thing of that yeah there's no recipe that makes the perfect cake for everybody. Right.

Like whatever speaks to you, like you said, as long as you're not praying on somebody else or hurting others, and it works for you, who am I to judge? Right. Exactly. You know? And, yeah, like, I just, I had to, like,

I had to come to a place where, like, I have to do this for me. Like, it has to be me because people are going to die. Jobs are going to be temporary or they might, they come and go. If I do it for my wife, what happens? get divorced one day. Well, that was my main reason to get sober, so now what am I going to do? Am I going to fall back into it? Or do I have the gumption to get through now that my main reason to getting sober is gone, you know? What do you think is the main risk of your sobriety now?

Honestly, I don't know, because it's gotten a lot easier to say no. It's just still there some days. And it's going to be there every day. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a constant level. From the people I've talked to who have recovered from alcoholism, they don't ever say that they're not an alcoholic anymore. Right. Yeah. They're just an alcoholic that doesn't drink. But they're still an alcoholic. They're just choosing not to participate in the thing that'll drag them to the bottom of the ocean if they let it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

So I think it's still going to, it's always going to be there. And again, I'm not speaking from personal experience, but I know enough people that are fighting that, and they all describe it exactly the same way. Yeah. There's not one day where like, today is the day I'm done. It's like every day. Yeah. Yeah. I have my kind of method of dealing with it now.

Like, you know, um, sometimes if I really get the urge to drink, I go buy like a bag of candy instead. Like just a little shit like that sometimes too. Does that satisfy the urge? Um, a little bit, I think. Doesn't hope on the scales, though, does it? No. No, it doesn't. Where is your inner jocco go do a million burpees?

I know, right? I was doing pretty good. And then, you know, for some reason, I just fell off. these last like a month or two. It's all right. Just another opportunity to get back on. My boy, Brian, it's funny we were joking a while back. Like, I was getting like really fit and everything.

And then he goes, you start going the opposite direction. Take you out back. Did you shoot you? Two, it takes three times as long to make progress as it does to lose the progress. Oh, yeah. You take a day off from the gym or your diet. You're like, I'm fucking done. This is the way I am for the rest of my life.

Took you about two years to get to that point. Like, it's all gone. It's all over. Right. Yeah. But yeah, no, like what keeps me sober now is just that thought. like hey like i have to be i have to have this for me and i don't deserve that shit and uh i think the biggest risk honestly is just any given time of grief or um just real struggle is when the

it starts getting more whether it's financial or you know me and my wife have had our ups and downs we're just like any married couple like we have issues i've done a lot of negative shit in our relationship she's nothing but a saint for sticking by but um and so supporting me, but everyday stress and anything significant in our relationships, it's like it drives you towards that, you know, drives the needle that way. And for me, um, fortunately, with my sobriety now and with what started back on September 9th, um, although, you know, three years ago, was I just had this will and this gumption that, like, I'm not going to fucking drink.

Good. I'm going to find anything else to do. I don't want to be. And I talk about it a little bit in the book because, you know, I go through CSA and then I tell my story of like substance use and the suicide. Suicide attempt and the ideation and this journey. And I have been able to kind of take that ground in my mind against like this version. of me that's like super out of shape and he's just sloppy drunk who's just a piece of shit to his kids to his wife and all I need to do and I'm not I'm not saying it's easy but what helps me

a lot is I've been able to separate myself from that version of myself and all it takes is a little visit down memory lane yeah it's important for people to remember you don't you know just because the way that you were or the person that you were it doesn't have to be the way that you are for the rest your life. Yeah. Who you were can be who you were. You can change the trajectory of your life. Yeah.

And sobriety ain't going to fix, you know, sobriety didn't fix my marriage. It didn't fix my relationship. Shocker. Guess what? You still got to deal with all the damage that you did and all the bullshit that the alcohol was numbing or you were using the alcohol as an escape to deal with. Yeah. That stuff's not going anywhere.

Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah. If you are, if you're in the grips of alcoholism and you stop drinking, your life is probably not going to get easier overnight. You might have to wade through a metric. fuck ton of shit that you have done to yourself and other people before you start making that

progress. On the other end of that journey, probably better than you can possibly imagine. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, I do want to say this too. I really appreciate you having me on here. I've been nothing but a fan for years. So it's like super surreal even sitting in here. To meet Michael. I understand. Isn't you overwhelming? Incredibly. God, I can't look at your fucking glasses. It irritates me so, so deeply. I want to smack him right off his face.

What is Michael to you, I guess? Is he, like, just hired help? Michael? Do you have some... Have you ever had, like, a thorn inside of your shoe? That every step that you take is just painful, but you have to get somewhere? There's some kind of utility in this thorn, I guess. I don't know.

I don't even remember how we met. I mean, I know we met during jihitsu, but I don't even remember how we started talking about having you. Well, Leah mentioned it to me. A long time ago. Yeah, I'm not capable of good ideas, but Leah's capable of making good decisions for me. It was her, wasn't? She was the one who made the suggestion.

Yeah, because a couple years ago. Fair enough. Okay. Yeah, you know, I think that's like a huge barrier for people, like newly sober people, some of those challenges, like, hey, you've got to like, you got to understand, like just because you get sober doesn't mean people are going to like you. Oh, no.

The damage that you've done to other people is real. And you may, here's the thing about, I've heard this excuse a few times from people. well, I don't remember doing it, so what's the big deal? Like, yeah, the person that you did it to may have a much better memory than you did. So it might not be a big deal to you because you were on like full robot autonomous mode. But guess what? It was very real to everybody else.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard to, it's hard to square because, you know, I'll give you an example of something that happened when I was a drunk that came up after I got sober. I didn't even realize it, and it's taken some healing and some work on both me and my wife's part. But at some point, my wife was pregnant a couple years after my old was born. And she came out, I was like sitting in front of the TV, just drinking. I'm like, had the day off. It was late enough. Start drinking. and she came out and told me like, hey, I miscarried.

And my answer at the time to that was, I'm just going to get drunk. And went on, I mean, I completely remembered that with how much I was drinking. And once I got sober, that was something that she told me about. And part of the struggle of getting here and trying to be sober and, like, walking a better path going to therapy being a better human being is i had to square with myself like that level of just being a wretched human being because she went she went through that shit alone um while i went and got drunk it's rough it's rough but you know what the place i can give you is just a face it head on yeah i mean you got to have those conversations you got to start um trying to put

fire on all those bridges you burnt and some people aren't gonna. I don't know if that's a good analogy. Yeah, fair. Put fire on the bridges that you're on the thing. Yeah, that's true. I think I know what you're getting at, but that one, like, I feel like they've already burned so you're lighting them on fire again. I don't know if maybe water.

There's firefighters who do that. I feel like there is a good amount of firefighters that are pyromaniacs. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I like fire, but. I think there's some firefighters out there that are pyromaniacs. I get it. I mean, it's, I mean, if, I'm not saying they're out there starting structure fires,

but they probably are drawn to it. And like, they're fascinated by it, whatever it is. And they're like, fuck it. I want to have a job where I get to interface with this. Yeah. I mean, I'll tell you what, like, you're standing outside of a structure fire, at least for me, like, the house that's fully developed and you're getting your hoses out and you're getting ready to do whatever you got to do.

There's a certain beauty to fire. But then also you're like, oh, shit, this is somebody's house. Like, this is, like, this is terrible. you know but um but yeah no like i had to part of being sober is like you got to square that shit um so i have my i hold myself to a higher standard and i'm just trying to improve and walk on that path and understand that like hey i deserve to be sober um at the end of the day because it's going to pay dividends to every aspect of my life whether it's professional or it's relational or whatever it might be i'm going to add to that yeah to something you can remind you

mind yourself. Your wife and kids deserve it too. Yeah, they do. Yeah. So when you're, that needle is trending in that direction, it's beyond just you as well. Like, if you, of course, deserve it as well, but you're responsible for more than just yourself now. So your wife and kids deserve it too. 100%. Yeah. And I think that's part of it. Like, it really has to start with yourself, but also like once you get there, you realize, like, I was nothing but a monster for my wife and my kid. They don't deserve that shit, you know. Be careful with that word. I don't know if they would, I mean, maybe ask your wife if she feels that way. Were you falling short of the person that potentially she wanted to be with?

Maybe. But maybe she saw who you were and she was willing to weather the storm for that. So be careful with the words you use with yourself describing how you feel about yourself. Dude, we've been out of it for a couple hours. I've got to bounce out of here relatively soon. The book. Yes. Where can people get the book?

So you can get it on Amazon. Kindle. It's enrolled in Kindle select. So if you have Kindle Unlimited, you can read it for free. It's called Suffering and Silence, Male, Childhood, Sexual Abuse, Survivorship. You can find me on Twitter and Midaw, 018, same as Instagram. I have a substack. It's called The Diary of a Male Survivor.

Is that like a blog? Kind of, yeah. Okay. Yeah, you know, if you want to support me, you want to support the mission. Overall, like, I'm going to be putting out things that are specific to kind of a survivor's experience there. Um, if you like fiction, I got, you know, there's, there's a link tree on my Twitter. You can, um, or X, uh-huh. You can go check on my fiction on what pad.

Um, I have a passion for that. Um, overall, it's like a, I've realized now that it's kind of like one of those, it was a few things there, but, um, there's a lot of weird, weird shit on, on what pad nowadays. I didn't realize it. What is it, though? Is it an app? Yeah, it's like an app. You can get it as an app or you can visit the site.

And it's four authors, put out stories. It's free. Okay. Unless you're, like, paying to read. I haven't done a lot of reading on there, so there's people that have, like, a premium associated with being able to read their stuff. My fiction's free. I do it for fun. What do you like writing about?

Aside from the nonfiction stuff, my current fiction is actually zombie. Apocalypse. Oh, Jesus. Come on. I know. Completely cliche. My fucking wife has listened to so many goddamn zombie apocalypse books. It's called Welcome to the Fall.

Zombie Apocalypse? What perspective are you writing it from? The Survivor, from the zombie? From a zombie. Actually, that would be interesting. What a hell? Because they're kind of dead, right? They're not really thinking.

They're kind of more like autonomous. Depends on the version. Like, if it's a zombie, how would you write a perspective of the zombie? zombie. They're kind of dead. Right? I feel like you'd have to do it from third person.

Can your zombies run or can they only walk? They, if they are freshly turned, they're a little bit quick. But otherwise, they just walk. Like a trot? Kind of, yeah. Okay. Yeah. It follows a story.

It's funny, though, if you ask people about the zombies, can they run or they walk? It actually splits you into like the two different genres. Yeah. Yeah, there's a whole divide there. Yeah. Are we talking George Romero zombies or we got like walking? Well, the Brad Pitt movie, which is, uh, oh, darn it. Oh, I know what you're talking.

World War Z. They run like a motherfucker. Yeah. See, that's a different genre. Those zombies happen. I'm fucking dead. It's just the end of it. Especially if you're like way in 290. They're going to be snacking on your bones. Yeah. No, that type of zombie, scary zombie. Slowly walking zombie. I don't know.

But it's funny. People seem to be in only one of those camps. They cannot accept both of those camps in the fiction world. Right. Yeah. If you don't mind, I'd like to say like one more thing about everything. We didn't know what my final question was, so I didn't say we're down like right now. My apologies. What else you got? So I am a product of my support system and, you know, not just that.

I mean, obviously it took a lot of gumption on my part to get through things, but had I not have my awesome friends, my family that has supported me through everything, my wife, I would not have gotten this far. And above everything else, what I'm trying to spread, regardless of the way, I'm going to be this issue is not only awareness, but to people who have gone through it or people who have been impacted by it, whether it was, you know, one of your kids or what have you, your abuser does not hold what true power over you. Your true power comes from you and what you do with your situation. You know, fortunately, I got sober. You know, I've enjoyed a decade of pursuing

civil service, spaining fire, corrections, public safety, a federal contract. You know, and I've been able to, at some point during that, utilize it as fuel to better myself and try to better people around me. And that's where your true power comes from. You know, don't get into a game where, well, that's not the right way to say it, but your abuser and your situation and your trauma would have you think that, they hold the power over you and your life and there's nothing that can change that.

The reality of the situation is that shit is in you. You can unleash it and you can utilize it to fuel your life. Use it as fuel. Whether it's going to the fucking gym, it's talking to a therapist, it's disclosing your abuse, whatever it might be.

Putting down the bottle, take that shit and just use it as fuel because you can change your life. you know what would you say to somebody who you know the 20 year disclosure window which is just that's a lot it's a heavy burden yeah what would you say to somebody who is whatever somewhere in that 20 year journey hopefully closer to the beginning than the end of 20 years how do we shorten that is there any benefit is there any benefit to wait in closer to the 20 years to

say or do something about it you know what I mean like no I can promise you did almost do 20 years I mean, do you wish that you had done something earlier? Do you wish you had taken the actions you would have finally taken 15 years before the 20? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think another tool that we could use or another method is to try to shorten that reticence. You know, another way you can try to influence this issue is a rapid deployment of resources post-disclosure, you know, for the victim, but also like swift fucking justice. on the perp. So if you're out there, man, and you, and this shit happened to you as a kid, and you're scared of your mom and dad finding out, or your brother or your friends or whatever it might be,

I promise you, like, it's not going to be fucking easy. You're going to go through a lot of shit in disclosure. You know, for me, when I initially disclosed, like, there was relief. But then eventually, like, I mean, literally driving up for my parents that weekend, I felt like I just made the biggest mistake ever because I watched my mom crumble. in front of me. And I watch my dad, you know, crying. And I've seen how that has changed your life. So I'm not going to tell you,

disclosure's fucking easy. It's not. But it is so much better than suffering in silence. It is so much better than trying to keep this shit a secret. Because you deserve healing. You know, you deserve to be happy. You don't deserve to be stuck in this place where all you can think about is your trauma

and the shit that has, happened to you as a kid, like, it is worth it to disclose. You know, so if you're out there, you're living in silence, man, like, I just hope, whether it's my story or it's cess or whoever, like, I hope it breaks through and you, and you choose the path of healing and self-betterment. Me too. What do you want to close it out with? Like I said, I mean, you can find me at all the things I kind of mentioned, you know, my handles and my site. I do have a website. It's nickmedaw.com. There's a link there to go get the book.

I'll put it all in the show notes too. I'll just have you send me all this stuff so I can put it in the notes. Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate that. I mean, yeah, just if you're out there and you're suffering, man, like, you don't have to do it. There's a better path. So, and I want to say, you know, again, thank you for this opportunity. I literally could not imagine, you know, even last year being here.

I'm super stoked. It's really opening some doors and I really, if anybody's hiring, What kind of job you're looking for? Anything having to do with whether it's advocacy or going on and speaking. I'd like to get on the public speaking circuit just to share my story. And there's so much stuff like in my story that we just didn't have time to get to today because there's, you know, whether it's the federal stuff or it's, you know, doing public safety and everything like that. Like I'd love to get out there and actually share my story and, you know, see people and hopefully make some impact in that way.

The more people that come forward and talk about it, I find that makes others more willing to share their experiences too. I really do think that just being open and discussing the stuff, regardless of how horrendous it might seem to be as the person who went through that, it does seem to have a very large cascading downstream impact for people. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that is, it's super valuable, especially like, you know, I had somebody tell me, I was working this job, working with autistic children. doing ABA therapy at one point. And I was kind of telling one of my coworkers about all this stuff. And something that she said, which I don't really feel deserving of it, but something she said was it takes people like you who are kind of like on the outside, like these tough dudes or whatever, like who put on uniforms and stuff,

which I think is kind of funny to describe me that way. But, you know, to be vulnerable to really make change and connect people. And I don't know if that's true or not, but I think there's something to that, like, people, you know, such as yourself, you know, that I know without a doubt, if I tried to reach across this table, you'd fucking end me in a second. You know what I mean? Like, just tough guys. I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I'm not a tough guy by any stretch.

I'm like anti-violence as much as humanly possible. That's fair. Yeah. But it really takes people speaking up. And I think you're right. you know, the more survivors and people out there that have been through this, like, get out there and talk. I think it's, you have to remind people that they, a lot of the, like to use a metaphor

of a backpack, a lot of the weight people put into their backpack is you can't control what happened to you, but you can control what you do with it afterwards. And if you can take some of that weight out, absolutely. It'll make your life better. Yeah. Yeah. Use it as fuel. Cool. All right, man.

Awesome. Thank you. Yeah.