Cleared Hot - Powered By BRCC - Episode 408 - Josh Tomeoni - Life, Divorce, Rebuilding, Financial Security

Episode Date: September 22, 2025

Josh Tomeoni is a men's coach, financial expert, and host of The Derelict Podcast. With 18 years of experience building financial planning businesses—and learning from failures in marriage and life���Josh offers honest insight into what men face during divorce. Josh's mission is to help men reclaim authentic masculinity, find clarity, and live with courage and purpose. The Derelict: https://thederelict.biz/   Today's Sponsors: Black Rifle Coffee: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com  MudWtr:  Ready to make the switch to cleaner energy? Head to https://mudwtr.com and grab your starter kit today! Right now, our listeners get an exclusive deal—up to 43% off your entire order, plus free shipping and a free rechargeable frother when you use code "clearedhot". That's right, up to 43% off with code "clearedhot". Keep your energy natural and refreshing all year long with Mud/Wtr—because life's too short for anything less than clean, delicious energy.

Okay, got to red smoke. Smoke, west of the smoke. Okay, copy. Whist of the smoke? I'm looking at danger close now. I'm all with it, baby. Where do you want to begin? I appreciate you reaching out cold, by the way.

Yeah. You're welcome. I, you know, I don't have the ability to respond to every single email that I get. And as we were talking about at the coffee shop, I don't want to tell people how to do their business model. But it was an interesting question from our manager. And Michael, I'm curious your thoughts on this, too, because you've been around the podcast. podcast world a bit. Connor was asking if we charge for having guests on, which I wasn't aware that people do that. And to me, and again, I'm not telling people how to do their business model,

there's something off there. Not that there's wrong, it's just a little bit, that sounds a little bit gross to me. And then you had heard of somebody, uh, believe in the state of Nevada, which was a large fee, though. A very large fee. I, yeah, not what I would want to do. No. And the reason I found out about that podcast actually is because a friend of mine that I had through a business group was on it. And she, you know. Did they get the ROI? Like, did they get a 10 grand?

She didn't pay. Okay. Because when I reached out to her, I said, did you actually pay this fee? Because I would never pay it. Yeah. Because it's insanely high. Yeah. But I'm just curious if you got anything out of it.

And she said, well, actually, she was connected in some way. So he made some exception. But normally he charges that fee. I was like, I just don't. I mean, we're talking. Five figures, which doesn't make sense to me for one episode. Yeah, and a platform of that size, if they have anybody with above a room temperature IQ handling the ad metrics behind the scenes, they're making plenty of money.

Yeah. Today's episode is brought to you by Black Rifle Coffee. There's nothing new I can tell you about the brand if you've been a follower of the show or you follow me because, you know, I have deep ties to the organization and the founder. So let's head over to their website and let them speak for themselves. What do we have here? What? Coming soon, the Navy's 250th year roast? I didn't know they'd been around for 250 years.

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needs. Is it too early to start talking about Christmas presents? I think it is. That'll be next time. next month, maybe November. Until then, back to the show. It's weird. Again, I'm not here to tell people how to do business. It's not the model that I would choose. Yeah, it feels icky to me. It does, too.

But there's a lot of things in life that feel icky to me that people are super stoked about. Yeah. Well, you're from California, now you live in Montana for a reason, and maybe there's some ickiness there. I don't know. Where was it in California?

It was a Southern California? So I was born and raised in Santa Cruz, which they call Norfolk. Northern California, but it is. It's not. It's dead center. I know where Santa Cruz is. Yeah.

Dead center at best. And until I was 18, we moved around a bit. We actually lived up here in Montana and Missoula for a couple years, but I was super young. I remember that it snowed, like that kind of young. Yeah. Not a whole lot of core memories from that. Went up to Northern California from Missoula, a small town called Sebastopol. And my mother would only allow me to play a Pop Warner football one time.

She was deathly afraid that I was going to get hurt. So I showed her later on, obviously, with my choice of hobbies and profession. But I was tying my shoe at a practice. And it felt like somebody had my shoulders and was moving me around. And it was the San Andreas earthquake in 89. Oh, wow. So we moved back because my dad was the son of a brick mason. He was a brick mason himself.

He was actually working construction up there. And then stayed in Santa Cruz for then until I left for the military because Santa Cruz got rocked. I mean, I bet you there's still unfixed. damage if you look hard enough in that area from that earthquake. Wow. And then started off on the West Coast in the military, then the East Coast for a bit, and then finished on the West Coast. So I'd been in San Diego for about a decade when we moved.

Honestly, more than anything, what got me was how life felt palpably different in just a smaller collection of people. The subdivision that we lived in had more people than this valley that we're in. And how many of them did you know? Like, no, no. Oh, at least three. Right. And how many people would you say you have a deep relationship with here in this type of environment?

It's way more. It's the typical you don't know your neighbor sort of thing. Because no one talks to anybody. Yeah. And even up here, you know, there are like where we are right now is we're just off of main street. You know, like every town has one. If you lived here, you may not know as many people. it's much more rural up here.

And as you get out there, you're talking 15, 20, 30 minute response times. People know their neighbors more. It's more collaborative. One of the reasons we moved up here is we bought an investment property that it was being used as an Airbnb. It was actually very turnkey. They just handed over the website. We used the same manager. And that was the house we stayed at for that month before making the decision to come up here.

But like out there, you know your neighbors. Yeah. And they've helped us. There was a fire risk out there before a couple of years. years ago, I'm hauling ass out there where, you know, help our neighbor move their gun safe into the middle of their property because you got to save the guns. Yeah. It was kind of awesome.

I was like, yeah. Like, let's do the mounts and the gun saves. I appreciate where your head space is. But people are helping each other out. Yeah. For sure. And, you know, where we used to live, and it's not a knock on it. Where we used to live, you know, it's, you dial 911.

It's just the culture. It's the environment. Yeah. I get that. Yeah, I don't think I could go back, actually. Yeah. Are you still in Portland? Yeah.

Well, I live a half hour away from Portland. So it's, you know, I was listening. Is that enough? It is. Yeah. So actually what made me think about it is your most recent episode. I was listening to it earlier before I came on today. And you guys were talking a little bit about, I don't remember which city it was that had some other experiences happen in it.

But it was all within like a mile radius, right? And you wouldn't know that the entire, I think it was L.A. It was actually L.A. Same thing. So I don't know if you remember, but back in 2020 and then Portland just fell apart and then they rioted for like 100 days straight. Isn't that what Chad was? It was insane. The city of Chad? I don't know where Chad is. Didn't they take over a block? I swear there was like the zone. They called it Chad. Michael, they may have. This is where you. Yeah. Can you look at us? It might have been. I'm pretty sure it was. But I'll tell you. So every everyone that anywhere I would travel and I'd say off from Portland, they're like, oh my God, how are you doing that? Like they thought I was in a war zone. I was like, it. It's like two blocks, like two city blocks. And Portland is huge.

So, you know, I live a half hour away from that. I don't, I can't even, I'm not even close. Yeah. It's like living in the mountains where I live. What did you find about, it? It's like it was in Seattle. Oh, there you go. Close. And it was Chaz.

Chaz. Part of Chop the Capitol Hill occupied protest. Nice. Similar. Yeah, it can't be Chad because that's just a male Karen. Yeah. Chad would work though. Chad would have definitely worked for sure. Chaz. I just remember I mean it really was the expression of people like we are following no rules. We're going to govern ourselves which immediately fell apart. Yeah. Of course it did. Yeah. Because anarchy always works.

Always. No infrastructure whatsoever. Yeah, they needed help. They were begging. Begging is probably not the right word. Soliciting for donations for food, water, all of it. You know what's amazing, though, is they push it so far. And then they're very, very anti-law enforcement during this entire time as well, which obviously was happening around the nation, but very strong in Portland. And they push it so far. And then they get all the law enforcement out.

And then nobody's doing anything. And it was probably years until they finally were like, oh, we need help. Like you pushed them all out, you guys. Are you serious? And I don't know how you rebuild that. The policies. It's taken years. And Portland is still, like, I used to live in Portland.

I will never live in Portland proper ever again. How long do you think you would take? I mean, so Portland was on the leading edge of decriminalizing all narcotics as well, right? Yeah. It's still. To which they have, I believe, done a 180 on that. I think they went, they think now it is no longer decriminalize. But the point is you make those changes.

In California, there's some amazing things about California. But some of the really, Santa Cruz is. actually a very far left progressive area where I grew up. But there's other examples. Silicon Valley has a different flavor of that. And it's more ideological, I would say. San Francisco has another example of really progressive policies. The answers to these tests are out there for people to look at. And it's odd that they don't really look at it. To me, and I'm not an expert by any stretch, but if New York continues on the trend that they seem to be on, they're going to be San Francisco in about five years. Yeah, I can do that.

San Francisco is not doing great. But again, not the whole Bay Area up there. It's probably, I mean, I know businesses are fleeing the homeless problem in California. I don't have the vocabulary to describe how out of control it is. And again, that's not necessarily completely a policy issue, but the policies are tied to it for sure. It will take a long time to unwind that. And I don't understand why people don't look to the readily available answers to the test that are there. I will give Portland some credit.

They have helped that population a bit. the last couple years, which is surprising to me because, I mean, again, five years ago, it just, there was just homeless people everywhere downtown. I mean, you literally couldn't go anywhere. I had plenty of people that lived in these nice, fancy rise buildings, like friends, business partners, et cetera, that literally couldn't even get in their building without stepping in a pile of shit and somebody putting a needle on their arm. And it's like, you're paying how many millions of dollars for that? That's not going to last forever. While they were building the first Ritz Carlton ever in Portland. I'm like, this is ironic. Strong. It makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, I believe that's called a dichotomy. Yeah, it is for sure. Yeah. So what are you up to these days? What do you do for living? Good question. So I've been a financial planner for almost two decades now. Are the markets lurking to? That's what everybody always asks me whenever I start with that. Should we buy Bitcoin now? Oh, God. We're going to do Bitcoin already. I just know nothing. I mean, I kind of know what it is, but do you invest in Bitcoin, Michael? No. Good man.

No. I'm just, I'm terrified of it for no reason, really other than I don't understand it. Yeah. No one does. Yeah. I get the blockchain. I can understand the utility of that. I just, I do kick myself because I do remember when Bitcoin was like a dollar.

Of course. I really wish I had dumped 10 grand into that. Everybody always remembers when whatever was whatever. Yeah, totally. Right? It doesn't matter if it's Bitcoin or Apple. Of course. I might actually use it for exactly that purpose.

Back to the future. That's exactly what it is. Hey, man. All of the sports teams. Scrounge 10 grand together. No, screw the score teams and the stocks. If you scrounge 10 grand together and just put it in Bitcoin when it's a dollar. Sure.

And then you have a real long conversation with your former self, regardless of how much money it looks like. I'm telling you, yeah, don't. Don't touch. Don't touch. Don't touch. Let it be. Be real tough. It'll be real. Those number got real big.

What do you think it'll go to? I have no idea. I'm not even going to touch that one. I never thought it would be over $100,000. That is insane to me. Yeah, it is. All right, how about traditional markets? How are we doing? Are we in the collapse?

Are we base jumping off the edge? What do we got? You know, markets will do what markets do. That's my answer. I know that's such a lame answer, but it's my answer because they will continue to. So let me answer it this way. I was convinced just based on all the literature and the backing. and everything else that a couple years ago,

we were going to have a huge crash. I was convinced of it. Now, there were some dips for sure and some bigger ones over the last several years, but I saw 50, 60% drops that never happened. Really? So will that happen? Sure, it will happen.

I mean, here's an easy way that I like to explain it to people. If you look at the S&P 500, for those that don't know, that's 500 large U.S. companies. That's what it's called S&P 500. Okay. Of those 500 large companies, about five of them,

over the last five, six, seven, almost even a decade, about five of them, it depends on the year you look, has been about 40% of the return. Five companies. You can probably guess what they are. Apple's going to be up there, Amazon, probably Microsoft. Yeah, all the big ones you're going to recognize. So anything happens to those companies,

even just a blip in it and the whole S&P 500 dramatically shifts. We need a new one. We need the S&P 10 and the S&P 10 and the S&P. and P-490. Yeah, there you go. I mean, if it has that much impact, I mean, maybe it would have more utility if they did split it. I mean, I don't know if it would change anybody's investments profiles, but wow, that's

incredible that those companies, there's a trillion dollar company already, right? Did Apple crossover a trillion? Yeah. Much higher. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. But to go back to your question, so I've been doing that.

I mean, that's my day job that I've had forever. Do you enjoy it? You know, I do. I do. It's changed a lot over the years. So who I've wanted to help has changed a lot over the years. So I went through a divorce several years ago. It's fine, isn't it?

You've been through one. I heard just through some of your episodes. Yeah, they're a lot of fun. I was hearing your story about the big wedding that you had and then the courthouse wedding that you had. Yes. They had a different economic impact on my wallet. Yeah, really?

You think? You think? I had the 200 person won back in the day. So, yeah, I know what that one's like. It stinks. Yeah. Still stings. Right.

I'm not mad about it, but I remember it happened. Not the wedding. I love the wedding, but I remember the checks associated with it. Yeah, for sure. So when I went through that, I really started getting much bigger passion, just honestly for guys going through divorce, especially guys that are our age-ish, right? Middle-age guys that, you know, in our society,

there's a big population, let's say, that if you are, I heard you talking about this as well on that same episode, white, right, cisgender, right? That's the expression. straight, upper middle class, male, then you're the problem with a lot of population today. Not everybody, but a lot of population today. And these guys have a really hard time when they're going through this midlife change. And often it is accompanied by divorce, business failure, whatever else they're going through.

You've gone through it. I've gone through it. Yeah. And we don't really have a space where we can be open about that or that we can actually explore it together because there is either this side of. of people saying, we'll just buck up, right? You fall off the horse, you get back on the horse, pick yourself up by your bootstraps,

all the things my grandfather used to tell me back in the day. Or there's this side, which is the, you know, I think I've listened to enough of your episodes now to say that over-pussified, maybe is a word I can say on here and be okay with it. It is the internet. The over-pussified culture over here of like, let's just all sit around and hold our hands and sing kumbaya

and sit in therapy for the next 30 years talking about the same exact problem. And we don't have a real space in the middle for guys to be like, look, this sucks. This is shit. I don't know what my identity is anymore. I don't know what my purpose is anymore. I thought that it was for this. I thought it was for my fan.

This is me, too, by the way. I'm not just talking about other guys. Everything you said so far is accurate for me as well. Like, I don't know who I am. I was a family guy. I was married to my wife. I thought I was going to be married forever. That was my intent.

That was always my intent. I had the kids. I had the job. I had all the stuff. And then it shifted. And there's so many guys where when it shifts, like, what do we do? Because women, in general, I think it's much more accepted for them to get help with that sort of thing. They can go to therapy.

They can go to support groups. They can go. But us guys, like it feels, I don't know, I think for a lot of guys, it feels weird. Like, I don't really want to do that. Or maybe it doesn't feel weird. I just don't know how to do it. Or I don't want to be in either one of these camps. And then I think the saddest thing for me is that what that translates to is the highest suicide rate in America, 35 to 50 year old men.

Why? We're at the peak of everything. I mean, yourself, you're in a great physical shape. You're obviously very successful, right? I wouldn't necessarily use this term, so I appreciate what you're saying. I know you well enough to know that you are. You know, it's, yeah. successful for most of the world.

Sure. Let's say that, right? You know, every day, though, I wake up wondering if I'm doing enough. You know what I mean? Yeah, I do. I do too. It's one of the things I struggle with. I don't struggle with it.

It's a battle that I have accepted that I think is just the, maybe it's a good thing. Are you doing a good enough job to fill in the blank? And maybe that could be the parent for my kids. My kids are, you know, you have younger children. My kids are at a different phase in life. and the things that I can actually do to impact their life are actually, they're limited now. And a lot of this support, sometimes just money. Am I making the right decisions so I can think three years ahead to help them then?

What do I want my life to look like in three years? Also, am I even good enough at any of the stuff that I do to be able to accomplish those things? Every day, I have those same doubts. And I wish that more people could talk about those things because this suffering with what you think is a unique problem. We are defined by our similarity. is not our differences, at least in my experience, in my conversations with real people face-to-face. Online, this facade of perfection and only pinnacles and mountaintops and success, cool, I get it, that's that ecosystem.

Some of the saddest people I've ever seen are the ones that portray the happiest persona. 100%. And it sucks to see. It does. It breaks my heart. Yeah. It really does. But the divorce, who.

Well, you go back to the. Divorcemen. So when I when I when I so I went through my divorce I had to go through a couple years of just figuring out who I was I'm still going through that I shouldn't make it sound like I've arrived somehow how long was the actual process for you about two years same yeah about two years and it was it was it was contentious it was difficult I was same I You know in court years later right still multiple times a year I mean it's just it's just one of those situations unfortunately did you guys try mediation I can only speak for myself fair I try I try credit. Yeah. I was at least, we were, we, not I, we were at least able to mediate, but our court date would have been so far. It was, it was incredible. The distance ahead they put the court date. Here's the other thing about mediation is it depends on the state, right? So our state requires mediation before court. Oh really? So we had to go through it. I don't think that is the case in Montana, but it was definitely, it did take two years. I heard a story recently.

I'll leave all the details out, but it was a couple days. They were actually able to, to mediate and get through it in a couple days. That's amazing. I really would have wished we could have that. I just heard this story the other day, too. I mean, I've heard this story several times, and it's because, so again, in the states, especially the ones that require mediation, a lot of the times, the goal is you go in for one day and you mediate for one day and you're done.

And that's the idea. I was like, that sounds like a wonderful idea. I love it. Until there's emotions and anger and resentment and feeling of. And I'm going to fight over the coffee table or the hammer or the- money or what I'm going to get per month and how long I'm going to get it per month and what do you want to be on paper when it comes to the kids. Yeah. Buckle up.

It's a hassle. Yeah. So when I finally got to a place where I was like, man, this is why I'm here. I have to help these guys go through what I went through because no one's doing it. So I started reaching out to people that did any sort of divorce coaching, mediators, attorneys, coaches. Divorce coaching? Yeah. Tell me more.

Yeah, I will. This is a niche industry I might need to look into it. Yeah. So I start asking all these people and guess what they all tell me. 95% of our clients are women. I was like, huh? Really? Why is that?

Why do you think? Because they're smarter than us? I think it's because I've met two types of guys getting divorced. There's the ones that have pretty good relationships with their soon to be exes and they can just do the mediation in a day or two and just make it work. Right? I had a buddy of mine that went through a divorce around the same time I did, that his wife and I were close enough that with themselves, excuse me, were close enough that they literally just got the paperwork online,

filled it out themselves, had an attorney look at it, signed it, we're done. I was so jealous of him. Good for him. Absolutely. I was like, dude, do whatever you can to keep that relationship like that, because that is amazing. That's a godsend right there. And then, of course, there's the other extreme.

but so there's there's those guys that have those decent relationships and can just make sure it gets done right and then there's the other guys that it's contentious or they need attorneys or they need something but then that's usually where their mind stops is like well I got the attorney the attorney's just going to take care of everything so where divorce coaching comes in is it fills in all the gaps that the attorneys don't do which there's a lot there's a lot there is a lot and I also think that guys are less willing to reach out for help and talk for sure those things 100% yeah it sucks because I'm a man I can do it yeah or you feel like you're supposed to be able to do it or I should be able to do this and that is a really negative self-licking ice cream cone you can just go around and around and around

with that one and brother look I did the same thing that's why I'm doing this now because I was that guy I was like well I got the attorney I can figure it out yeah and thankfully with my financial background, I didn't need a finance. So there's financial divorce coaching, which is a thing, and you can get a certain designation for it in order to help people through just the financial piece. I didn't need that going through mine because I'd been doing it for so long. I was good, but I was shocked at how little attorneys, the courts, judges know about numbers and finances until I went through my process, and I've seen so many guys go through it. They're probably just experts in the procedural aspect, right? 100%. Yeah. But you, but you rely

and your attorney for that, right? You really do. Well, if you have a question about divorce and you only have an attorney, who's going to get? Even the guys that have financial advisors or financial planners that I work with, they're not going to their finance person because they don't know about divorce planning.

It's a different thing. So they'll go to their attorney and their attorney gives them bad information and then they don't find out until they're divorced and it's a bummer. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

So you're helping guys navigate that process. and gals, which is a good thing. One thing that helped me, I, the talking to other people about it, like I had talked to a counselor pretty extensively every week throughout the entire process. Me too. And I'm super open about it. People probably think I'm a broken record when it comes to counseling, but it's had a tremendous impact on my life.

Me too. And I've watched it have impact on other people's lives. And I do get positive feedback from saying I would have never considered it until I heard you talking about it. So for those of you think I'm a broken record, whatever. Skip this episode, skip forward. It has impact. Not all therapists are great.

You need to find a good match. It's not overnight. And guess what? You do all the work, not the therapist. That's another one. People are like, well, I went in and I talked for an hour and nothing is any different. I'm shocked. I can't believe I am so shocked that your life isn't completely different.

Right. But it, yeah, I mean, that was, that helped tremendously. But I was used to talking about stuff in my old job. I mean, honestly, we spent a lot of time around the guys that we worked with, and we would just talk about stuff that happened all the time. And I was comfortable sharing with those guys. So what's the difference sharing with somebody who doesn't even know you as well as they do? You know, I mean, I guess I looked at it from the perspective of what could, I mean,

what's the worst that could happen? I mean, I think the worst that can happen that happens to a lot of people is they get stuck in therapy, talking about the same problem for 20 years. That's not therapy, though. I agreed. Yeah. But this is the 80-20 rule of any industry, right? Yeah.

Going back to what you said previously. Yeah, don't get lost in the process. Here's the thing. This is where I think a lot of people get in trouble. This is where I got in trouble. Is that you go to a professional for a certain thing and then you expect them to do other things. So example, you go to an attorney because you're getting divorced and you expect them to be your counselor, your financial planner, your coach, your spiritual advisor, they're none of those things. They are, we walk you through court, we get all the paperwork done, we try to make sure you don't get fucked too much, and that you guys can compromise on something else. That's their goal.

Attorney, ask any divorce attorney, you think they like being therapists? It's like the last thing they want to do. You know they're eating so much of it too, though. They do. Yeah. They do. Even my own did, and I had a therapist going through it because there's just times where you get so fucking riled up about everything. Well, you want to explain why you feel the way they don't care. Right. And the good attorneys will just be like, okay, Like, that's great. Let's just move on. The other ones will be like, hey, can you write me a super long email that I can charge you every six months for to read this?

Or I'll just leave this on speaker and do other work. But don't worry, the billing clock is running. Right. 100%. There's that too. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So it's like that in anything.

So going back to therapy, it's the same thing with therapists. A therapist's job, in my humble opinion, is to help you get from past to present. So any sort of, I had this trauma, I had this childhood experience, I had this thing that's still affecting me in the present. Let me get past that so that I can just be a present focused person. They're not future-oriented, ever, not even really good therapist. We don't have a crystal ball. True, but I would say that's where a coach comes in that's different than a therapist. A therapist is looking backwards to get you present, a coach is looking at you present to get you forward.

So whether somebody's doing it to get six-back abs or to grow their business or for emotions or whatever else it is, right? So when somebody goes to a therapist and they say, great, now help me move forward, that's not the therapist's job. That's not what they're good at. They're good at helping you get present. So just like going to an attorney and expecting them to be a financial wizard moving forward, it's just not going to work well. And then I see these people get stuck in therapy forever because they can't figure out how to, to move forward. Yeah.

And they just kind of keep looking back. And what are you going to do with a therapist once you're done? Like, I remember, I went to therapy for years during this process because I needed a lot of it. And I didn't realize I did until I started going through this process. Maybe you were the same. I don't know. I came from a family where therapy was bullshit.

And no one should go to therapy because just figure your shit out. That was the kind of family I came from. So I came from a family where my mom gave my dad an ultimatum and said, you either sort your shit out and talk with somebody about from his experiences in Vietnam or I'm taking the kids and I'm bailing, which is a part of why we moved up to Missouli. He was working with the Veterans Center up there. So he went the other path. What was interesting, he had a very strained relationship with his father to the point where his weird early memory of being at my grandfather's house. I'm pretty sure it was Christmas Day. I'm like, wow, these are amazing lights that are

bouncing off the walls. I'm like, oh, those are the cop cars kicking us out because he called the police suite. Oh, wow. Like, fully disowned his son, my sister and I, which for the better. I mean, I didn't really know much about the man at that age and the more I have learned.

It's unfortunate that he has passed away because I would have liked to go up one side of him and down the other verbally with what I thought of him. He thought therapy was a sign of weakness. But my dad was able to break that. You know what I mean? because you can either break the cycle that's rolling downhill on you or you can pass it downhill to others.

My dad was able to break that. You know, that probably helped my willingness to talk to somebody else as well. You know, you see that example. It's a lot more powerful than somebody just talking about it. You see somebody in your life meaningful doing that. It's like, okay, I'll get a good go. Yeah. Strongest men I've ever met are the men that will do that.

Yeah. They're not the ones that pretend that they don't need it. Asking for help is one of the strongest things I think people can do. 100%. Yeah. We're built as tribe. If we don't live as tribe, then it's weakness. It's like, so we're in Montana.

I think cowboys. And I always think of this idea of kind of this lone cowboy going out and doing things, right? And this whole idea of just this lone individual, independent guy going doing things. I'm like, every time I hear that analogy, I think, yeah, but what were cowboys really like? They always went out in tribes, right? Oh, the working ranches were always multiple people. It was always multiple people. And they're always helping each other out.

And they're always there to back each other up. So this idea that even a cowboy would be this independent lone ranger just going out by themselves is insane. I just don't get it. I don't get where this idea, why is it as men, do you think? Why is it as men that we think we have to just figure it out? Because we're not that smart. That's true. It's very true.

There's a reason why women have. have in the greater picture a longer life expectancy. Yeah. We are. More power also too, by the way. I know. We are just. A lot more power.

Anyone that thinks that men have more power are not looking at women very closely. I think if women knew how dumb we are. Like if they truly could get a look under the hood, they might not, they might go live on an island by themselves. It's true. It's the whole old joke of like the woman asked the man what he's thinking of and he's

literally thinking of nothing because our minds are just blank. And they think we're lying to them. Of course they do because they're always thinking about something. I'm like, no, I'm not that smart. I'm just literally spacing out. Like I just, I needed a moment just to space. Oh, like a bird, huh? Yeah.

Yeah, I'm glad people can't read minds, women specifically because they would just. Oh, for sure. Could you imagine? They'd be like, can we just put them on an island? Yeah. We'll come visit you guys occasionally, but just go do whatever it is you do over there, bites. Yeah, for sure.

100%. Yeah. I'm just being honest. Oh, man, that's funny. I don't know. I don't know where that comes from. I don't know if that's passed down generationally. Do you think that still stands up today?

Do you think that's what the current generation of men think? I don't know. I mean, we're talking current generation as in younger than us? Because I would agree that I'm 47. I would agree that most men of the age that I am at were navigated their life like it is your job to figure this out. Regardless of the obstacles that are put in front of you, cool story, see you at the finish line.

Like you need to figure it out. You need to be able to be a protector, a provider, all of which that can be taken too far. It's funny when people talk about, to me, that's, you know, masculinity is your ability to do those things. Toxic masculinity, which is probably a thing. When people define it, though, it's like a really extreme bizarre example of that

that I would agree with is unhealthy, but it's also not the definition of what I think. think masculinity is. Anything can be taken too far. But I wonder, I don't know, Michael, you're the youngest person in this room. What's your generation's take on, like, what's the role of a man? How old are you, Michael? It's 23.

25. 25 of him. He's trying to make you feel like he's older than he is. I, in my opinion, and I think this kind of, it is definitely not as pressured to be like you need to provide. You need to, but in my opinion. What is pressured for your generation? You need to be whatever it is you want to be or yeah.

Kind of actually like in my opinion. My ideal relationship is like as long as you talk it out, work it out beforehand what your roles are, it can be whatever you want. But if you both are good with that, then it's great. Go for it. Is that confusing to you ever? Because it's less defined than previous generations. A lot more flexibility would seem to that. Right.

I mean, again, if it's a gingerbread cookie and you each find the shape and it fits together, well, like a puzzle piece, I think that could be great. But yeah, I wonder if that could be confusing too. To me, it's not. And I honestly think people overthink the whole roles a lot. I think if you find somebody that you love, it's not going to be like you shouldn't have to be stressing about, oh, I need to do this, I need to do this, I need to do this. Just talk out with your partner and be like, hey, this is how I'm feeling.

And yeah, I don't know. In my opinion, at least, you know, I don't think it's as big of an issue as I think a lot of people make it out to be. Interesting. I will say this. So of my three children, two have talked pretty openly about a desire to have a family one day. my oldest son not interested really in that. And it seems like that is a little bit more prevalent as well. And I'm not putting a judgment of a pro or con on that.

Low birth rates in countries. You can look at places like China that had a one child policy and what's going to happen to their population size in the decades to come is going to be very interesting. Well, especially with just a bunch of men. Yes. They valued men over women, right? What was it? They put the women in the baskets.

and I hope that's a wife's tale and not a real thing. Yeah. Even though I, oh, it's real. Yeah, I was going to say, I think it's not a normal wife's still. I mean, I've heard firsthand experiences of that sort of thing. Yeah, and so one of my biggest fears about entering into the divorce, which was my decision to initiate. I was the one who made that decision, was the impact that it could potentially have on the kids.

And I do worry that I'm always super careful to talk about anything about the divorce because I have a platform and she doesn't. I think it's fair for me to get into details in any way. Same. It was contentious, for sure. It still is contentious, and that just is what it is. I'll take an equal hand in that because I can get hot under the collar just like anybody else can. But I worry that he feels that way because he was the oldest going through that and it had the biggest impact on him.

And that's not what I wanted. And more than anything, I'm remarried now, our three-year anniversary is coming up in August. Oh, nice. More than anything, I want to show him what a healthy relationship can look like. And I'm hoping that that will have impact as well. But the ink is deeper on the other side. I was with his mom for just under 20 years. Yeah.

I get that. I was with my kid's mom for 16. And I see it the most in my oldest as well. Yeah. He's the main one that even remembers us being together. The other two don't even really remember that much. Which I think is a good thing to be honest. I do two.

I think there's pros and cons, honestly. You know, I've worked with enough guys at different ages of their kids when they're going through it. I think there's pros and cons depending on how old they are. But the one thing I will say, too, though, is I've definitely seen that show up in his kind of attitude towards things. Like, I've only had one serious relationship since the divorce that has met my children. I'm very protective of introducing them to anybody that I date. So they've only met one person. we were together for almost two years.

So they had a good amount of experience with her. But I definitely struggle with that when that relationship ended. It's like, oh, man, now this is what I'm showing my son, that I'm failing at this again. And is he going to have any sort of interest or desire to try this at all when he's not seeing his dad do it? That's definitely been an insecurity of mine in the past for sure. So you could look at it like that,

or you could look at it as, you know, the example you're setting for your son is, perhaps you just realize that it wasn't a good fit. And that you need to advocate for yourself. And if it's not right, don't force it. And it doesn't mean that all relationships, and this is the conversation I'll have with my oldest. You know, my children are free to make the decisions in their life.

I try to guide them to the best way that I can. But almost two out of the three of them are, you know, in the letter of the law, they're adults. Anybody who thinks that you become adult because you turn 18 and all of a sudden you've got it figured out, I remember when I thought that too. Yeah. And it's when I turned 18.

And now I look back and I go, whoa. I did too. That's when I met my ex-wife. And then I started dating her at 19. Then I got married to 22. And I thought I knew everything. I got married to 23. Clearly didn't happen.

Yeah. Yeah. But I'll tell him, I try to talk to him like, listen, a failed relationship between me and your mom or anybody else or you and a girlfriend that you have had does not mean that all relationships are going to fail. If you find the right person, you can make. it work. Does that mean you're always going to find the right person? No. Does it mean you might have to go through some really bad stuff to appreciate the good? Probably. And buckle up for that,

buddy, because it's coming. But I just don't want him to lose. I don't want to be alone. Yeah. You know, and maybe that's, you know, there are people out there who can do okay alone if COVID taught us one thing that there's not that many of those out there that can do. Not as many as they thought they were. Holy cow. We all thought we were good being alone until we had to be alone. Yeah. So, there are some people who can probably do okay with that. I don't know if he's one of those people, but I want him to at least be open to it. But again, it's his choice to make. And I just, I do worry, though. I carry that with me of, did I change or fracture for him? The idea of a partner that the idea of a partner that makes your life better and you're willing to engage in that,

even though, yes, there is a risk that it may not work out. Because he'll say things like, well, why would I want to get married because if it doesn't work out, they're just going to take half my stuff. I'm like, well, there's an aspect of what you're saying that is real. But if you find somebody that is amazing, just at least keep it in the back of your mind that it might be worth it. I don't remember who says the quote, and I'm not going to try it because I'm going to butcher it.

But the quote is essentially something to the effect of, without heartbreak in relationship, it doesn't make relationship or love worth it. In other words, what would be the point of having love and relationship if there wasn't some sort of heartbreak? Because if we can't compare it to something, then it doesn't have the value that it has. So that's true in everything, right? So you mentioned failure earlier.

Let's talk about failure for a second. If you look up the definition of failure, which you guys can do if you want, but if you look up the definition of failure, the second definition of failure essentially says that you were trying to accomplish something and it didn't happen. You're trying to do something and it didn't happen. that's all it means. So all it says is basically you had intended consequences and it didn't occur that way.

So based on the definition, I could walk across the floor right here and I could trip and that's a failure. But we're so scared of using the word. But you mentioned earlier about failing at relationships. Well, that was a failure. But guess what? Every relationship fails at some point,

every single one. There is no perfect relationship. They don't exist. So why is that important? Well, without the failure of that relationship, we can't see the beauty of it. You can't see the love. There's no, without any contrast, what's the point?

Like, what would be the beauty and the love or anything else if there's no contrast on what the other side is, right? Easy to talk about when you're not in the valley. So much easier. But let me encourage you with something, and maybe you don't need this encouragement, just based on what you said, though, is, brother, you got to forgive yourself for that.

If you haven't already. Oh, I forgave myself. I just know that it's real. It is real. And I still want to make sure that when the moments present himself that I can at least put a glimmer of sunshine or sunlight on an idea that I planted and I leave it alone. You know, I don't hold them up a gunpoint against one.

I'll be like, you'll be married in two years. One of the things I started doing with my kids, maybe six months or a year ago, is I started and I ask him this almost every day, not every day, but almost every day, I ask them what they failed at during the day. Because what I want them to understand, which is actually good for me as well, I'm really just asking myself this when I'm asking, you know, as parents, right, you're often just asking yourself the question that you're telling your kids. But what I want them to think about is to just be okay with the fact that things are going to not work out the way that you wanted

them to work out. Most of them. Most of them. So let's not hide behind some scary word. Like most people hear failure, I think, and they think of some sort of shameful like I am a failure. No, no, no, no one is a failure. We all fail. Yeah. But as we fail, that's how we get strong. Any successful person. Name a successful person that didn't fail a million times. Yeah, you can't. It's not possible. Like, what do they call it, a white elephant or what? I'm sure there's some weird person that you could point at that probably came from generational wealth that just knocked it out of the park. Or just like failed a bunch when they're 18 and then somehow had a perfect life since I'm somehow somewhere.

I'm sure there's somebody can point. Like look at this person. Yeah, of course. For everybody else. That's normal human sapiens. 99.99.9. Even more than that. Yeah, it's a tough lens. I mean, people are looking for this painless, joyous, stress-free life. Brother, come back to social media for that one, right? Well, it's not real. You're never going to find it.

I actually think life, as I get older, I think life is more about figuring out ways to at least embrace the struggle. And if you do it right, you can kind of enjoy it. So going back to this, since my kids are younger, and none of them are dating it. What I'm concerned. That you know of. Yeah.

It's funny how 12-year-olds date, my oldest, right? I always hear about that. Oh, they're dating. What does that mean? I don't know. They look at each other at school. It's definitely, definitely long-term. Definitely long-term.

Yes. Give it a week. So what I worry about, which is part of the reason I have this whole failure conversation with them when you talk about relationships is I don't want them to be among a lot of their classmates that will, I repeat, will have robot. girlfriend or boyfriends. It will be half of them. I don't know.

It's going to be a big percentage. But why is that going to happen? Because of the fact that you don't have to deal with the failure. You don't have to deal with the heartache. You can just kind of program it to however you want to program it, which is why things like pornography are so popular because there's no sort of connection there. You don't actually have to put yourself out there in order to do something.

You just kind of pick and choose whatever it is that you want. And that's what I'm worried about. I'm curious from a younger generation, but... Oh, he's a connoisseur of pornography. No, I'm more curious about... We can't even pull up his search hedges. We're talking phelonious. Like, it's happening right now.

Unfortunately, he does under my tab. Is that what's going on right now? He's like, oh, I'm logged under your account. I'm like, son of a bitch, it's not me. Yeah, I'm not going to pull this one up, you guys. It's going to get us taken down. Is the porn addiction thing real? What you mean?

Is this a dopamine? I have seen pornography. in my life. Don't get me wrong. And then cool. I haven't. What's it like? It's like two people. Did you see that side face? I just got it. It's like two people are super loving. Oh yeah. That's sort intimacy and connection. Yeah. I just hope people get exposed to it later in life because can you imagine how that would fracture if you thought that that was the normal route to intimacy? But I hear about people who have porn addictions. Is it, are they addicted to watching other people have sex? Like what do you get out of that.

Don't get me wrong. Like, well, so let's back up and talk about what addiction is. Okay. Okay. So this is the way I view addiction, which I think is a very simple way to being it. Addiction is just escaping the present moment. Okay. It's a mechanism.

It's a mechanism to escape the present moment in whatever capacity I want to use. So I could use alcohol. I could use drugs. I could use pornography. I could use shopping. I could use dating. I could use rebound relationships. It doesn't matter.

Let's add into that. Therapy, morning routines. For sure, ice baths. You get lost. My favorite are those that find out. Well, you do jiu-jitsu. I mean, talk about how many gym bros are in this addictive path. I mean, not Michael and I.

Or work for guys, workaholism, huge one. Jiu-Jitsu is an interesting one. My wife has openly talked about it. It's one of the, it's an activity where you can disassociate and just focus on the moment, which is a great thing. And I actually think it's a really good thing for the mind. to put down your day-to-day mundane problems because it's real hard to think about balancing your checkbook

when somebody's choking your face off. Unless you want to get your face choked off. But eventually most people are like, I don't like this. I want to choke your face, so I need to learn some shit. But she has said in her life, her words not mine, and not exactly in this way,

but there were times where she knew that she was using jiu-jitsu not to improve her jiu-jitsu, but to escape the things that she knew she needed to work on. Yep. And I see this with the people who... No, no, that being said, though, Is that better than shooting heroin in your arm?

I mean, yes, in some circumstances, yes, because the consequences might not be as dire. Listen, sir, I'm not an expert on heroin, right? I don't know the potential health benefits of heroin. I don't either. Maybe it improves your sleep score. I'm not sure. I am joking everyone.

I don't believe there are any health benefits. Now a word from our sponsors. Whatever pharmaceutical company you want to have on here. Yeah, I don't believe there are any health. Yeah, I think it's a healthier mechanism. But again, if you put your problems aside and don't deal with them, the backpack is going to be full and ready for you to deal with it at some point in time. The morning routines, I think, are great. But what some people seem to lose is that it's supposed to optimize you for the remainder of your day, not turn you into an enlightened and sufferable asshole.

Right. He spends four hours doing a morning routine and then needs a nap because they're exhausted from their morning routine. Right. There's a guy I follow online and he talks a lot about those morning routines. He says, you know, 85% of the people that are doing all these morning routines should just get up and fucking work. I was like, yeah, I think there's some truth to that. Or find one or two of those things that legitimately springboard you. Like cold plunging.

We had a guy on who was the founder of plunge. He's like, oh, you don't cold plunge? I'm like, listen, dude, this is my exact words. I'd rather have a 300-pound Samoan wearing nine-inch stiletto heels. Dude, I hate cold. River dancing on my ball sack. Yeah, I hate it. I hate it.

I hate it. I hate it. I don't like cold. So I just don't. I did it and it was good for me to do it to realize like, oh, this is how difficult ice bath is. Oh, this is what it's like getting in really, really cold temperatures. Great.

If I did it for five minutes, though, and it legit made a demonstrable difference in my day, I would suffer through it. I haven't found that. Jiu-jitsu for me, I can go for an hour, disassociate a bit. And it's funny for me, I have enough laps around the sun that I realize I oftentimes will solve problems better if I don't directly think about and try to smash my head against the wall of what can I do, what can I do? What can I do? I put it down for a little bit and I'll find some things to do. Jiu-Jitsu is a good example where you're just in the moment. And it's wild. I'll finish and be like,

okay, and I'll look at something from a different angle. So it is helpful in that way. And so for me, it's emotionally exhausting in a good way. It's physically exhausting in a good way. It helps me to look at different things. But yeah, you can take that out of control as well too. You still have to, But solving those problems or finding the solution, guess what? Now you just have the tools to go solve that problem. And that's where the rubber meets the road. Here's the thing, though, with addiction, it's really not that complicated. And one of the keys with dealing with addiction is change in physiology, which you're talking

about right now. And that is, I remember a mentor said this to me a long time ago when I first started dealing with the addictions that were in my life, is they said, look, nothing is forever. Everything's temporary, including emotions, including how you're feeling. So if you're feeling this way, it will not last forever. Have you ever met somebody who's been sad 24-7 their entire life? No, it doesn't exist because even the saddest person you've ever met still has moments where they're feeling some other sort of emotion.

Doesn't last forever unless you make a decision in that moment that is permanent. And that's where the physiology comes in. Because sometimes all it takes is I've got to just stand up. I got to go for a walk. I got to go do jiu-jitsu. It doesn't have to even be an hour. It could just be, I need to walk around the block. I need to jump on a rebounder.

I need to do some jumping jacks. It could be, you know, I'm in the middle of the day oftentimes and I'm doing my thing and I have a couple minutes, I'll just get on the ground to do a few pushups. And just that energy just changes so that I can get out of whatever my state is that makes me want to stay in that state. Because the thing with addiction

is it just makes me want to stay there. And unless I can shift my body in a way to get me out of that state, that's where people get in trouble. So again, whether it's heroin or love or sex or anything else, that's where people get in trouble. Work, working out, right? So the thing,

Going back to addiction. When I first, so part of my whole experience when I was going through all this stuff is I also started dealing with like, oh, do I have some addictions in my life? And I had to look really closely at that. I thought I was fine. Of course, like everybody does. No one knows they have addictions before they know they have an addiction, if you know what I mean. And when I started looking at that, one of the things that I did is I went through a 12-step program. And here's what I learned about 12-step programs. I wasn't an alcoholic either, by the way, because that's what everybody always thinks is alcohol or drugs. It wasn't either one for me. But here's the thing that a 12-step program teaches you. It basically just teaches you like this thing that you're using to get out of your present moment, this thing that you feel like you're suffering, can be something else. You just have to admit that you have a really difficult time getting out of this state. And that's the idea of powerlessness. So 12-stepers will talk about being powerless. And as guys, we don't like that because it feels.

the same reason we don't like vulnerability because vulnerability feels like I don't have any power, right? I'm not strong. I can't do these things. What I often say with guys is I think we relate better to being authentic than to being vulnerable.

Yeah, okay, I can see that. Because vulnerable is, oh no. Yeah. A bear is attacking me. There's nothing I can do. Vulnerable. Authent is, no, no, I'm just being here with myself

and I'm open about my emotion. I'm open about what's going on. So the thing about 12-step or about addiction is first just realizing like, oh, I can't control this. I have to get to a point where I can't control whatever this is. In other words, I'm feeling something really uncomfortable and I'm using work or drugs or sex or whatever to escape this because I don't actually want to be here with myself right now because it's really uncomfortable. Then once you realize you're at that place, you realize like we were talking about earlier, oh, I actually need help from something else, which is the end.

idea of a higher power, God, spirit, whatever you want to call it. It's not a religious program. It's just whatever you think is bigger than yourself. Oh, that bigger thing can actually help me out. And then I have brothers that can help me out. And then I got to just deal with my own shit. And then I got to be honest about things. That's all 12-step is. I personally think everyone on the planet should go through 12-step because we all have something that's keeping us away from that. Now, you might be doing 12-step through jiu-jitsu as an example. But there are times where even that, like, Fight Club is a great example of this. Remember the movie Fight Club or the book?

Where he gets addicted to go into addiction programs. I don't know if you remember that aspect of the movie or not. Yeah, he had to split up. I forget the woman's character, but they had to split. Helen up on him, Carter, yeah. They didn't want to go to the same one. He's like, I want a testicular cancer. And then he ends up getting addicted to Fight Club,

and then she ends up going to all the other. But the point is the same is that you even going to those addiction groups, you can become addicted because you're still not dealing with, well, what's going on with me right now and how do I actually deal with my own present emotions and everything else? And like you said, you go to jih Tzu every day for an hour and come back and guess what?

You're still there. And your shit's still there. Everything that you're... Doesn't go away. No, at all. It's like traveling. I love to travel, but I found for myself, I went through years of traveling where I realized I was traveling because I was trying to get away from my shit and it never happened. It never worked. Shockingly enough. It was a carry-on. Right.

You can't leave your own stuff. It's like the typical guy that like gets divorced and, you know, goes and travels around the world or goes and move somewhere else or anything else and they still have the same problems. This is still the same guy. Still the same guy. Yeah. Man.

Can you come back to something that you said? Yeah, fire away. A long time ago. Sure. You're talking about years ago? Yeah. Years ago and I didn't even know you. Yeah.

Toxic masculinity. Sure. Come back to that. Sure. Because this is something I'm really passionate about these days. You're passionate about toxic? I am. 100%.

How dare you, sir. I love it. I love it. I'm here in Montana with my guns and my, my, beard. You get a ticket for not having a gun here. Yeah, I've, I've heard. I have my gun with me. Don't worry about it. Good. So today's episode is brought to you by mud water. Let me know if any of these ring true to you. Do you struggle with brain fog and maybe feeling a little bit groggy in the mornings? Are you sensitive to caffeine? And perhaps if you do drink coffee, you're feeling a little

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Couldn't be simpler. Drop it in your favorite mug or vessel. Pour some water on top. Give it a mix and you're good to go. People oftentimes like to add a little bit of creamer, maybe honey, maybe even some CBD, your choice. If this sounds like something you may want to try and you're ready to make the switch to a cleaner energy, head over to mudwater.com and grab your starter kit today. Right now, listeners are going to get an exclusive deal. up to 43% off your entire order, plus free shipping and a free rechargeable frother when you use the code cleared hot.

That is right. Up to 43% off with code cleared hot at M-U-D-W-T-R.com. It's right down on the show notes. After your purchase, they're going to ask you how you found them. Do me favor. Please show some support to the show by letting them know that either myself or the show sent you their way. This goes back to the filters that we look through. It's the same with addiction.

It's the same with all these other things we've done. talk about. I don't believe toxic masculinity exists, and I'll explain this. I'll explain why. I believe, I think similar to what you did based on a comment that you made earlier, that masculinity itself is actually a very healthy thing. I think it's essential for society to function. I agree, just like I do with femininity. I don't think that I think they're different. And let's define something for a second. You as a man have masculine traits and feminine traits. Myself as a man, have masculine traits and feminine traits. The majority of men have majority masculine traits.

Okay. The majority of women have majority feminine traits. There are outliers of men that have more feminine traits. There are outliers. I knew that was coming. Of women. I didn't say anything. Fully expected.

I didn't not say anything. I just, my mind went to a place when he was in touch. How would you describe it? Would you say that you have a majority masculine traits or majority feminine traits? Let's start with the hair. In general. Just in general. Probably masculine.

I mean, define. Like, what would you define it? Curly red hair, feminine. Hey. Yours isn't curly hair. I don't know. I mean, I have a male anatomy, so that's pretty masculine, I would say. Well, that's up for debate in this modern era, but...

That's true. Well, so let's say historically, masculine traits are more associated with power, courage, force, getting things done, Right. Those are generally more masculine. I really do like working. Leadership. Feminine traits generally are more nurturing, caring, supportive. Okay.

Yeah, I would say more masculine because I do like to get after it. Andy would disagree with that. I just want you to impact what you think is getting after it. The point is it's not a big truck and a gun. That's not masculine, right? We're talking about traits here. No, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I don't own the big truck.

No, he doesn't. You don't have to. I don't really want a big truck. You got a gun on the table over there though. Show them your piece. Nice. That's dope. Yeah.

It's my everyday carry. Yeah. You have a conceal carry for that? Does my tail need it? I don't know what the- It's a constitutional carry. So you can conceal or open carry. I would say with a flare-

No matter what or do you have to have a- You do not have to have a CCW. Okay. I would say with a flare piece like that, that's open carry. Oh, I open carry. You know what I mean? That's- I don't know where you're going to. Put it otherwise.

People need to see it. Because it's a statement piece. Yeah, it is a statement piece for sure. Absolutely. So let's go back to what we were saying. So I believe so strongly about how good masculine traits are and how good feminine traits are that I honestly think that every single problem that we have in all of our society would cease to exist if people just authentically lived in their true masculine selves and their true feminine selves.

I firmly believe that. So let's go back to toxic masculinity, which only exists, by the way, because toxic femininity, how often you've heard about that? That doesn't trend as well. I've never even heard the phrase. I have heard people talking about it in the terms of what you just said, why isn't it talked about? Yeah, that's the only time. So both of them exist, but I don't believe they exist at all because I believe masculinity in and of itself is very healthy, femininity in and of itself is very healthy. So where does toxic masculinity comes from?

Well, it comes from something that is a, quote, masculine trait. Like, let's take power. And then somebody abusing that power to kill people, rate people, destroy people, whatever. And then that's toxic masculine, right? I would say that that's not toxic masculinity. That's just toxicity. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a term of, it's probably just a matter of vernacular. I think it's much more than that.

And I'll explain why. Okay. Because by using the term toxic masculinity, what do you think it's done to a lot of people that use the term. What is it done to a lot of people that use the term? I'll just tell you what I think. I think what it's done to a lot of people that use the term is that then associate masculinity with toxicity. I think a lot of people don't even understand the things that they're saying most times. I do. Us included. Speaking for myself, 100%. I agree. I try to be real honest, though, when I'll use a word, I'll just say, like, I'm not so sure what that means. And oftentimes, Michael

work for that for me. I can see what you're saying. I can see what you're saying. Where I think it does a lot of disservice and damage to our world is that then people associate masculinity with toxicity so that even masculinity that's not toxic at all gets in that bucket. Not smart people. For a lot of people.

I don't know. I've met a lot of smart people that seem to do that. Smart people, though, aren't smart in every way. You know what I mean? I agreed. We have our blind spots for sure. I think if you were to break it down and have a conversation with them, they would understand. I think it gets called that because it's catchy and no other reason than that.

I think so. Well, maybe. You know, and I understand what you're saying. It's a traditional trait that is, and that's how I would probably have described it if you would have asked me. It's a traditional trait that is taken far outside of the bounds of what it was likely designed for. And damage is created by it. You know, toxic femininity would be the same thing in some sort of manipulative way as an example, right? Instead of a woman caring for somebody and connecting with somebody, she's using them to manipulate it as a narcissist.

way of doing something, right? Same difference. I just think it's really, I think it's more than vernacular because I think when you associate the terms with each other, it hurts both of the terms. I can see what you're saying. And doesn't keep them separate. I mean, I'm going to keep using it, but.

You should. Absolutely. And you already know that I love it just based on how this whole conversation started. Yeah, I'll think of a different way to say it. You know, some other time, not today for sure, but. Think about that. Let me know what you think. I'll get back to you.

I want to know later on. Yeah. Yeah. It'd be curious. masculinity plus. I don't know. And that's the thing. Like the definitions are going to end up being the same.

I see what you're saying, you know, that I mean the association of that word could get people to look at it like that. I don't know. I want to believe people are smarter than that and that they can, you know what I mean? That they can parse that. The problem is do they have the time, interest or desire to parse it? I think what you just said is really key. I think people in general are, well, maybe I shouldn't say people in general smart. Maybe that's me giving too much credit for you.

But again, you can't, like, I know a lot of people who are smart in many ways, and they're kind of dumb, dums and others. And I'm also looking into a mirror when I say that. I'm smart in some ways and dumbdums and others, too. Let's put it this way. For anybody that doesn't think that they fall into the propaganda of the propaganda machine, they're just naive. Or they're just deep in the propaganda.

Exactly, including myself. Yeah, we're all in the pot of stew. I'm cynical as fuck, man. So it's easy for me to be like, oh, my God. how are they so deep in this propaganda? How do they not see it and think that somehow I'm above it? Meanwhile, you have a tinfoil tuxedo in your hangar, you know, hang in your closet. 100%.

Right? Yeah. I got all the food supplies too, just like everybody else are in COVID. You have to. Yeah. I mean, that's why I still have 800 rolls of toilet paper in my garage. You know, I mean, it's just just in case. You know, a lot of people tried to return their story.

And it didn't work. It's weird. So, I mean. Costco takes returned toilet paper. I mean, used. I'm just saying Christmas. birthdays, you know, hand it out. And also remember that next time that COVID-28 comes out or whatever it is.

You don't need 700 rolls. Still to this day, it's not as funny anymore, but still to this day when I have my holiday party in my house, we'll do a White Elephant Gift Exchange and I still hand out a COVID test. It's not quite as funny anymore, you know, five years later, but I still get a kick out of it, so I don't care. That was a wild time. I tell you what, we, it was a really good, I've heard people say that was whole, that was all engineered around societal control.

Personally, I think if it was, they went too far. Probably to the point if there is a virus that's going to kill everybody, people are going to be like, nope, I don't believe you and everybody's going to die. It's true. Especially in Montana. Yeah. Well, they took it too far. But you also, I was shocked at some people's willingness broadly to comply without critical. critical thinking, questions or objection of any kind.

I was a little bit shocked. I'm from Portland, man, so I'm not shocked. You know what I'm more shocked at, though? I'm more shocked at that people still to this day that will defend everything that happened back then. That is a tough one. But it, well, if you think about it, though, if they were, if they are that person that on a light switch

went down that path for them to not defend it, they're now challenging their core beliefs about themselves. Yeah, but beliefs change. Not for some people. I understand. But I think that's insane. Yes. It's absolutely insane.

It's insane for anyone that is just not the biggest narcissist in the world to not think that their beliefs or anybody else's beliefs change throughout time. especially as information updates. You know, it's the people, it's the celebrities that get in trouble for a text that they sent 10 years ago or something. I'm like, yeah, but that was 10 years ago. Like, what happened in your life in the last 10 years? Like 10 years ago, I was married, had kids, had no idea all this shit that was going on in my life, didn't have the same business, wasn't working with the same people.

I mean, it was a different life for me 10 years ago. So for me to look back 10 years ago on this text that got sent out and to think that somehow my beliefs have always been the exact same, that's crazy to me. I'm just lucky I live the vast majority of my life where there wasn't text messaging. Do you think it's just insecurity? Do you think it's just like I'm too insecure to like admit that I did something stupid 10 years ago? I think that's a part of it. But I honestly do think that it is a core, the depth of their belief or their justification for taking the actions that they did.

It would shatter their core perception of themselves and they would have to rebuild. And that's a, that's a tough. It's tough. It's tough. And if you look at a lot of people, if you are presented with two options, one of them being extremely difficult and one of them being the status quo which is perceived as easier, what are most people going to take? Well, of course. So, yeah, that's why I say I want to believe that most people are smart. Have you heard of the, I can't remember what it's called, I think it's the seven-year life cycles.

Have you heard of this, how everybody goes in these seven-year life cycles? Could you look up the seven-year life cycles for me? Because one is at age, I'm just thinking of our ages. One is at age 35 and then 42 and then 49. So you're in between 42 and 49, right? You said 46. 7. 47?

Yeah, I'll be 48 this year. So you're between 42, 49. I'm 41, so I'm still between 35. So we each have a life cycle coming here. We have a different life cycle going on. Whose is going to be better? Well, it's interesting to me because 35 is when really, yeah. Yeah.

Can you find the one where it shows the different ages? Yes. Just hit the, what do you do? Go back down. Just hit the seven-year life cycle, the one up top. I bet you'll take us right there. Probably. Here we are.

Yeah, yeah. So scroll down, let's just go down to like 35. The next one. The body in full bloom. Actually, go to yours first. Yeah. See what mine is. It's going to be great.

It's going to be great. They're right there. 21-20. Play that turns toward responsibility. Wow. Emphasis on that first word in the sentence. gain a modicum of control over our emotions and start to integrate our rational faculties, which gives us greater control over our actions.

That makes sense. Also, when the prefrontal cortex of the human male forms, closer to 28 than 21, by the way. Correct. These are the years that young men are sent off to war. Always believing that they will not be among the ones who are killed. I can tell you that that is the truth. You never think it's going to be you. Well, I think even just the way that you were talking about relationships earlier makes sense,

based on this life cycle. Yep. Like, let's just collaborate and as long as we're having conversation and it's fine because we'll be okay. Ooh, we are learning to think about people other than ourselves. We are being stretched

to see life and broader and more self-stretched. Sorry in advance for already giving him more ammo against you that he doesn't need. He's going to look this up later and just look at, yeah, yeah, sorry, my bad. We begin to experience the first signs of our talents and special abilities. Michael, what are your talents? I'm way behind on that.

All right, let's zip forward. Okay, so scroll down to the 35. So this is the one I'm in crisis. Crisis and question. So the great thing about this, too, is that literally this is right when I went through my divorces, right at the beginning of this phase. So this is, what is it called? Pruning. Let's see.

Usually the crisis occurs when we're in our early 40s. Being cut down by events that seem beyond our control, right? This is the stereotypical midlife crisis guy. going through whatever crisis he's going through. Disappointment and a sense of failure. This is what you had to look forward to, Michael. I'm excited. I can't wait.

The most common of these disappointments, divorce, the collapse of a business, or financial strife. Man, I hope that doesn't happen all in once to people. Health crisis, yep, for sure. It happened to me. I did all those things during COVID, too. Most people talk about COVID, and they're like, yeah, let me tell you about COVID. So not only did I experience COVID, but, I also experienced divorce.

I experienced a financial failure. I experienced business failure. Man. That was a great year. Scroll down, Michael. This period, oh, go back up. This period could best be described by the metaphor of a man or a woman leading a horse by the reins.

Our humanity with its rational and spiritual qualities is now in front of our instincts leading the way. The spirit is emerging and is starting to take charge of our lives. It is a time of transition. We once lived exclusively from our own. will and power. Now we turn increasingly to God for all that we need. All right. 42 to 49.

Soul searching and wonder. So this is the time where you're supposed to discover yourself. You feel like you're discovering yourself? No. You got time. You got two years. I guess. What do I have to look forward to, Michael?

Let's go to 49 to 56. Oh, yes. Understanding of life. That's what I'm talking about. Yeah. Inspiration, mastery, and growing power. Oh, yes. I'm going to lord it over people.

A wealth of experience, certain wisdom. Life has softened you, given your perspective. No longer thrown about by the, what word is that? Visitudes. Visitudes. What a good word. Viscitudes of daily events. Let's see here.

If you have taken care of your health and have retained your vitality, you can now start to become the person you have always longed to be. Second win, dreaming of becoming your true self. Michael, scroll down to where my dad's at. It's probably just going to say death, but... Seed beyond 70? 78. Okay.

Reflection. During this period, you are no longer bound by any responsibility to... Yep. Right. Well, that part's accurate. There's blessings at every state. What do we got? You are at the threshold of rebirth into the next world

or preparing yourself for the next adventure. You're awaiting the call. Okay. I don't know if he would agree with that. Nevertheless, there's still... Okay. Cool, yeah, so basically death. Yeah, my dad's 85, so.

Oh, he's deep in the reflection. He's deep. He's deep. Does he have any bounds of responsibility to others? No. I mean, he's typical old man. Yeah, totally. Yeah, he's just doing his own thing.

I mean, a lot of that makes sense. It probably doesn't hold 100% accurate like nothing does to everybody, but I can see where they're getting with that. I just think it's interesting because I've, you know, I've definitely been around the block enough to see that life has seasons. for sure. And I think these seasons are really interesting and fascinating, especially when talking to men,

especially when talking to men like we were talking about before that are in that kind of quote unquote midlife state where they're freaking out. And then they're deciding what to do with it. So this is, I would say, a, like it would be curious to see this compared to a negative aspect of this. Like this seems very hopeful and positive, right? Like you go through this and then you get better.

And wait till the next phase. Right, exactly. And it's going to be great. Versus like all the people that are just 80 and bitter at everybody and hate everybody and just want everybody to die. I mean, that's not what this is saying. This is saying like, oh, okay, like I've figured things out. And now I'm taking stock of my life and I'm getting ready for the next. That seems very positive compared to a lot of 80-year-olds that I've met.

How do you think people arrive at that place of just being bitter and angry at everybody? I think it's not. It's not unique to 80-year-olds either. No, it's not. 100%. So I think it comes back to. It actually, to me, comes back to addiction. That can become an addiction itself.

If in the 12-step program, for anybody that's gone through it, when you get to step four, basically through six, you're taking stock of your own life. So you're handling your anger and your anger, your angerness. I don't know what that is. You're handing your anger, your bitterness, your resentment. And you're realizing that I have to let go of all this stuff in order to just move on with my life because it's not poised. It's drinking my own poison, right? I'm not poisoning anybody else anymore. I'm just poisoning myself.

So I have to figure out a way to get past this now, which is a very hard step. But you have to do that before the only step that everybody knows of in the 12th step is the amend step where you go and make amends to everybody. It's step nine. But you have to go through that process first before you can go make amends to people.

What's the last step? The last step, 10 through 12, are basically just, how do I say this? It's everyone that's in a 12-step program does 10 through 12 the rest of their life. Okay. So 10 through 12 are,

I'm sharing this with other people. I'm having a deeply spiritual connection with myself and my higher power daily. I'm sharing this news and then I'm basically mentoring other people in it. So if you think of it in religious terms, it would be very similar to any religion of, well, I have all this information now.

Now I'm going to go share it with others. I'm going to go, you know, tell other people about things. I'm going to make sure that I have a good relationship with God. I'm going to, it's just an ongoing daily. Any sort of meditation would be in 10 through 12. Okay. It's very like prayer, meditative community oriented is what those are. Okay.

So, but you can't get there again until you get rid of your own shit. And then you go make any problems that you created go away. That's what I meant. are it's not it's not amends are an apology by the way you know a lot of people think of it's well i just need to go say sorry to somebody well you can apologize to somebody and not take any sort of ownership of what you did yeah i could just come to you and say i'm sorry but why am i sorry well am i sorry because you're mad at me am i sorry because i want you to feel better because i'm codependent so if you feel better that i feel better am i sorry because of the fact that i just don't want to

fight about something right now or am i actually owning the shit that i did and amends is is not an apology. It's not saying that. It's saying what I did was wrong. Here's how it probably affected you. That was bad. That's an immense. Not an apology. It's a tough step. So to me, I think this is fascinating because I think it really speaks to that midlife guy dealing with all the crisis and how do you deal with that crisis? Do I deal with it with those addictive tendencies, whatever that's going to be. And I would say the healthy male, I see them deal with it in two ways.

You see this on social media as well, working out, right? Physicality or business. Which is why the biggest coaching industry is always for men will always be those two things. That makes sense. Most men also think, in addition to that, if you're successful at one,

if not both of those, you're going to get a higher return on a potential partner as well. A reward, if you will. Bank accounts and belt buckles. Bell buckles, very Montana. I watched these young kids get stomped by bulls in the pursuit of the belt buckle.

And I just want to take them to the country store. I'm like, I'll buy you whatever belt buckle you want. Because that animal is not worth it. Just stomped your face. And I would like to not see that again. And I think your parents don't want to see it again either. Man. Because TBI is real.

And you're a teenager. Let's at least save that for a little bit later. life. Yeah, for sure. You're going to get the shit kicked out of you enough. You don't need to do it when you're 15. I know. So what else do you do for living besides the financial planning? Working with men navigating seasons of their life. What else you got going on? Just in general or with work? Yeah, professionally. I mean, professionally, that's the main thing I do. Okay. The thing I'm most passionate about right now is helping those guys do that. So, yeah, we can do it through financial planning. Of course, that's one aspect of it. But I'm really interested

and working with those guys with more than just the bank accounts and the bell buckles, going back to that. Like, could I help somebody get in good shape? Yeah, I'm in good physical shape. I understand how to do it. I understand how to eat and exercise and everything else. That's not that difficult. You could do that through chat GPT.

You don't even need me. It's easy. It's just the accountability. But what about everything else? What about creating a space or a tribe of guys that can actually go through these things together? They can actually talk about these things. One of the reasons I love your podcast, which is why I reach out to you is because you interview some really interesting people on here.

Hopefully I'll fall on that list as well after this interview and talk about some interesting things. And I think it's done in a way where it's not in either of those camps. Like I don't hear guys coming on here and be like, oh, just try harder. And I also don't hear guys coming on here and just like weeping like little babies the whole time, right? It's like, no, no, no, let's figure the shit out.

Like this is difficult. We have these seasons that we're going through. How do we help each other through this? Yeah. So to me, that's my biggest passion right now. is trying to help men rediscover their authentic masculinity, what actually makes them them, and to be able to just be in that

and not let other people tell them that it's right or wrong or anything else. Have you seen any trends among the men that you have worked with that has helped them trends or just similarities in the situations that they're in or how they're feeling or how they got to that place? Sure, yeah. Where do I even start with that? I think we've talked about a few of them already. Number one is I think sometimes guys,

even if they realize that they need help or they want to work with somebody, they don't know where to start, they don't know who to talk to. The majority I think of guys, especially in this, maybe I should just say in this, I don't know,

the people that I work in this country, maybe it's the same in every country in the world, I don't know. Like we as guys get together and what do we talk about? Well, it would depend on the group. Yeah, in general. What do most guys talk about?

Sports, drinking, chicks. Michael's there, Pokemon. Or whatever else, 23-year-olds talk about. 25. Yeah. Yeah, I would say traditional. Yeah. I think the traditional guy has a hard time getting deep

with the other traditional guy in general. Do you think it's always been like that? I don't know. Do you? I mean, I can't speak to any other generation. I'm only the age of myself. I had, there's two communities of people where I felt like I was capable of having very deep conversations with specifically the men that I was with, because both were very, very male dominated.

The military, I had some of the deepest conversations of my life with people that I worked with. The other one was based on. Do you think that, real quick, on military since I'm not a veteran, as you know. Thank you for not serving. Wait, that's what I say. Thank you for, and I just think, thank you for having me on and not being veterans. I appreciate that. No, it's what I say to people when they say thank you for your service.

I say thank you for your not service. You're welcome. Let me just tell you, that one scrambles eggs. Yeah, you're very, how do I respond to that? They just go, I'm just joking, everyone, I'm not that bad. You can come say hi to me in person for a love of God. Oh, I think it's hilarious. I might have said it a few times.

Do you think it's because of space, time, atmosphere? What do you mean by space and time? I mean, is it because you had time with these guys outside of being distracted by a bunch of other things where you're like sitting around and have the space or the capacity to be able to do it without being distracted by a million things? That might have been corollary to it. If I had to define it, I would say it was the shared experience. Trust. The shared experience is built the trust. The time with them built the trust.

It was a world where you, I don't want to. overplay it or dramatic, you know, romantic, you know, romanticize it. Combat specifically is the minority of people's career. You know, if you spent 20 years in the military, yes, people, even people who do an immense amount of deployments, it's, it's not like you're in combat 24-7. It is not like the movies. I wish it was as exciting for people because maybe the stories would be better, but you're not, some people see more combat than others, but it's the minority of your career.

If you look at it in totality and you had to do a pie chart of your entire military career, like a huge portion is going to be selection and training, pre-deployment workups, combat's going to be a super small sliver. In that small sliver, though, there are situations that can exist where you have to immensely trust other people that they are going to do what either you have told them to do or what they have said that they're going to do. Your life might depend on it. There's a lot of trust that comes with that. and you can have deep conversations with it. So that would be the reason I think that those conversations were easier for me to have.

Because again, I'm a data point of one. That's all I can give you. But I did hear other people having, well, and I was obviously having a conversation with somebody. So maybe that's a data point of two because, you know, both people were engaging. I just don't want to get over my skis with my experience or portray it as something that it wasn't. But I did hear and see because I'd have those conversations with a variety of people. So I think for a lot of the guys, it was easy to have those conversations. So I relate to that a lot as a non-military person because if we go back to trust from shared experience,

some of the most trust-built friends that I've ever had came from shared experience of us all going through divorce at the same time. Yeah. I don't think. And I'm not saying that's like the military. No, but I was just about to say, I don't think you don't even need to make the comparison. I don't think the mode matters. I don't think so either. Yeah, it's the shared experience and honestly, the divorce, if your experience was anything like mine, was not gum drops and rainbows falling from the sky. It's especially shared experience with trauma, however you want to define that.

Suffering and laughter is what creates, I mean, if you think what is camaraderie. It is, and again, I wish, this is a double-edged sword. I wish people understood how utterly idiotic special operations members can be, but then they would never trust this again. So I need them to also believe that we're very capable because we are. But the number of dumb things we talk about or talk each other into doing, you would take away all firearms and anything with the sharp edge if people truly knew. So I need the facade to exist for a little bit so the job can exist.

but laughter in the most horrendous moments or what draws that group together. It's all camaraderie is. It's laughter and suffering probably coexisting back and forth in a matter of seconds. I think where my mind goes with that as well is another aspect of that,

I think where that's lost with men is if it becomes overly competitive, some of that gets lost. So in that environment, as an example, you're not competing to, oh, I can save you more than you can save me. And it's like, no, no, we have to work together.

And you're also not competing for suffrage. Correct. Same in the divorce world from my experience. Especially when I watch guys. That would be a shitty game. Yeah. Why would I compete to have like the worst? You watch me do this so it gets worse for me.

But that's my point. Because I think where that gets lost then is like, well, if you think about, well, why don't I not have as many deep relationships, friendships with work? Well, work's competitive. Why not dating? Well, dating's competitive. You know, all these other things. I think that that's the thing that throws it out.

The teams were also very competitive. Don't get me wrong. We kept track of everything. Of course you were. Your men, first of all, all men are competitive. But there was no competition in those moments where your life was on the line. I'd be honest with you, if there was competition, it was a competition to put yourself in a place of greater danger so somebody else didn't have to. Which is wild.

The things I have seen other human beings do, I'm like, I don't know if I have the stones to do that. I believe it. Yeah. So going back to your question, has it ever been any different? I don't think so because I think what you just shared and what I just shared has always been true. Base jumping. It's just a different experience. Is the other community.

Why base jumping, do you think? I don't know. Mortality is kind of on the line there. It is not a hobby that I advocate for other people. But I have had some of the deepest conversations with incredibly close friends on the multi-hour hikes leading up to exit points before the jump. Is that why do you think? because there's this sense that I can die, so maybe I should just be honest for once in my life?

I don't know. It's an individual activity, but it's a team sport is the way that I look at it. Jiu-sse is kind of the same way. It's an individual journey, but you have to have training partners. I had jumped alone plenty of times, but God, I enjoyed it so much more

when I could sit there and almost piss myself out of fear and laugh about it with a buddy on the edge before you rock forward to a place where even if you want to take this one back, like, nope, performance is now mandatory for the remainder of your life, which might be 30 seconds, where it might be 40 years.

It, I don't know. I think sharing, again, it's sharing those experiences and getting to know those people. I just had deeper, more meaningful conversations. I don't know why, but those are the two communities

where it was easier to have them. Yeah, for me, it's been any time my life's really gotten rocked, and then other people's lives were getting rocked and we had a shared experience and we dealt with that trauma and like you said, you know, laughter as well through it. What was the hardest part of your divorce?

That's a tough question. Do you have like a moment that sticks out? I think for me it was the moment. I'm trying to be careful how I say this because I'm like you. I don't ever either on my own podcast or other podcasts that I go on. I never talk negatively about my accident. It's the only way to be. Because I trust me, man, I made plenty of mistakes.

I'm not like going to blame her for everything. That's definitely not the case. I think it was the moment where I, how do I say this? It was the moment when I realized just how big the chasm was, was real. Like I convinced myself a lot even into the process that like somehow we were still going to work this out and somehow it was still going to be okay. And I think it was the moment when I realized like, wow, like this is not, this is not going the other way and it's just getting worse. I think it was even, I think even post-divorce.

Actually, it was harder because it was the moment where I realized like, it's, it's that moment when you have with any relationship, friendship, friendship, or anything else where you look at it and you're like, how could you possibly hate me so much? Like, I know that I made a bunch of fucking mistakes. I get it. I know that I was shitty in all these different ways, but like, how could this be so dramatically different than what I thought? of us. Yeah. I think it's that realization that everyone has when they go through a divorce where they realize

whenever, and maybe it's 10 years before you get divorced, maybe it's during your divorce, maybe it's two years after. I've talked to guys on all sides of that spectrum, but I think it's that moment where you realize, like, how did this shift so much? Like, how did it go from this relationship to this relate? Like, how did we end up here? Right? Yeah.

How is it this bad? it was that moment for me. Yeah, that's a rough one. Because it just, it knocked me off of any sort of reality whatsoever. It was the, it was the pill moment in the Matrix for me. It was like, oh, this is just completely different than what I thought my life was. How far into the divorce process was that? Deep.

I mean, it was, I think, well, there were stages. You know, like they say, grief is like a, like an onion. right and there's layers yep there are multiple layers um i would say the first layer for me was when i got handed divorce papers from a stranger that was definitely like kind of the first layer of like oh this is really like reality setting in like somebody just handed me papers like this is actually happening right now when i wasn't really expecting it and i would say the second level is like when everything was done and it was kind of that first time back to like court of like just that additional like fuck you you're the worst person on the planet and I'm like oh I think those

two were probably the biggest because it for me my identity was really wrapped up in my marriage and my family a lot so I would say you know like I don't know I think more guys that I meet their identities wrapped up in their work more so than anything else that's not true for everybody it was not true for me. Yeah. My identity was more wrapped up in who I was as a family man than it was my work. And so it's to me, it's like the guy that everything is wrapped up in the work and then they go bankrupt and their business fails and everything just falls apart. And they're like, oh my God, who am I? That's how I felt when I went through my divorce. Because it was like, it didn't even matter what I did for work or anything else. It just was like, my life's over.

That's how I felt. It's such a gnarly process. For me, it was the Excel spreadsheet. Of stuff? Yeah. The division of assets, the reduction of a human being to an Excel spreadsheet. And when you were describing how did it get to this point and how do you hate me so much, I definitely went through that. But it was the realization that somebody who I guess I would have hoped that I would have

meant more to that I was now a number on a piece of paper. And the game was maximum extraction. Not this was through the proxy of the attorney arguing on her behalf. Of course. Yeah. But and again, I mean, I'm as flawed a human being as you'll ever meet. I'm not a perfect husband by any stretch. Not a perfect father by any stretch. Do the best that I can try to be honest about my successes and failures of which there are far more failures than successes. But looking at that spreadsheet, and just like after nearly 20 years, this is now just what's in this column and what's, how did we get here?

Yeah. Like I mean so little to you as a person that my value now is, what can you give? That's a rough one. I'm going to talk about one other one that was really rough that is kind of related to this and kind of isn't. And then I'm going to talk about one that's rougher because we're competing now.

It's not going to be real in any way, but I'm going to make some shit up. This is, so I remember. We're having brief Olympics, all right? Currently I'm in first. You have the silver, but you have one more shot at it. Look, mine was worse. So I remember I was in this group of people that had gone through divorce or going through divorce, and it was kind of this, like, I don't know, support group, for lack of a better term.

And it was helpful in a lot of ways. But I remember being in a small group of people, and they all said the same thing, and I all thought they were crazy. So I was still in the middle of my divorce, and they were all talking about how their long-term relationship that they were in after their divorce. When that one broke up, it was harder than their divorce. And I thought, there's no fucking way. Because during this time, like I said, I'm going through this really contentious divorce process.

I'm like, there's absolutely no way. And then I experienced it. And what I realized is, I wouldn't say it was harder or easier. Like I think that's too generic of a term. But the thing that was harder about it is that you get out of this relationship, right? You get divorced. You finally get to the point where you're like, okay, that was awful. I can't believe I'm now being used as like a spreadsheet.

An integer. Numbers, integer, a number like at a huge bank or something. And then nothing really matters. You get through that. and then you meet somebody else. And then for all intents of purposes, hopefully if you work through some of your stuff, it's a much healthier relationship in a lot of ways

because you know what you're not looking for. You know what you are looking for. Hopefully you're healed a little bit. And I'm not talking about the rebound relationship that happens right after the divorce and it's worse because of, I'm talking about like an actual healthy relationship. So I went through that.

And what I realized when that one ended, even though I was the one that ended it, it was mutual, but I initiated it. even though it ended, what I realized was harder about that relationship ending was that I had built up a lot of expectation of like, but look at who this person is. Because now these are all the things that I didn't have before. And it's so healthy and it's so great. And there are elements of that relationship ending that were much harder for me because

I was like, but look at how healthy this relationship was. Versus like I could wrap my head around the marriage now realizing, oh, there was all this toxicity, bad stuff that I had to deal with. Now this one was supposed to be the one, not that it was going to save me per se, God forbid we do that, like we already do too much in this society. But now that this one ended, I don't know, can I do this? Like, am I a person that just can't have a healthy relationship? Like you start doing those things in your head that I didn't do before. Because before it's just like, well, I wrote it off as the marriage and then I get into these other relationships.

But then when you find the one that you think is going to work and it doesn't work, that was a completely. complete new mind fuck for me that I wasn't expecting. Yeah, it's like a compass spinning. And I didn't think in that relationship, like this is a perfect relationship. We're going to last forever. It wasn't even that. I didn't realize how tied up in my own head of like, oh, this is healthy now. How much that messed with my mind when I got out of it.

So that's related but not related to divorce because it's, you know, for people listening to this right now, too, I would say that's something also to be careful of. They're just writing down now in the notes, just don't get married. It could be. Writing down just celibacy. And here's the thing. A monk's life on a mountaintop. Did you go through a cynical phase after your divorce?

Oh, only since I've been born. So me too. How did you get past that to get to the place where you are right now where you got remarried? Do you think? I think that had more to do with my wife's ability to see the person that she knew that I could be. I was incapable of seeing it at the time. It's beautiful.

She's amazing. Yeah. I mean, it's what it comes down to. She saw somebody in me that I didn't see in the mirror. And she definitely saw me at my lowest moments. The divorce for me, people think that going through seal training was hard. I am not saying it was a picnic. However, comma, the divorce was harder.

And physically, of course not, because I wasn't suffering under a telephone pole or a log. my head and water. But emotionally just shattering sense of self and the questions of am I good enough to do anything? Am I good enough to find another partner? Should I actually find another partner? Am I so messed up that it is going to be the monk's life on the mountaintop for me? And she was able to see through that, which I mean, good on her because I wasn't able

to at the time. Now is the guy looking in the mirror. You know, for me, like I had an element of that after the marriage and then I did all the healing work and everything else that I did. but I experienced another layer of that like I just talked about after that last relationship because then it was just a new crush to my confidence in my ego that I thought I had already healed. I think that's a good thing.

I think you're supposed to. What is the phrase, Michael? The dildo of life oftentimes arrives unlobed. Is that the phrase, Michael? It's a turn of phrase. It is a turn of phrase. I'm not saying it is a bumper sticker worthy phrase. I think you're supposed to. You don't have that bumper?

sugar? I mean, not yet. I mean, we can get Michael on Canva here and get to work. Probably have some working mockups that we can A-B test at the end of the show. I think you're supposed to take the Marvel superhero uppercut to the ball sack. It's, I think it's supposed to happen. Every hero story has it. Well, I don't, I think you have to get hobbled from time to time. I think your confidence has to get shattered because hubris is also super dangerous. And people, for whatever reason, arriving at this place, thinking that they can do everything that they want to, absent the experience and knowledge and wisdom,

on one hand, I'm like, you, awesome, like, go get it. I wish I kind of had that, but also pack a lunch and maybe an airbag. Yeah. Because it's coming. For sure. You know, it's supposed to happen. I think it's a good, it's not a good thing that that happened to you, but I bet you have a better sense of who you are after those things happening.

Yeah, it's just a new layer of, okay, here's another failure. How do I look at this? Do I see myself, again, as this shameful person that just is, you know, like I did, I didn't, man, if you would ask me 10 years ago if I'd be some 41-year-old, like, divorced guy that's single and doing my thing, there's absolutely no way. I would have said that. Is there a better place I could be? No.

This is exactly where I need to be. Would you go through it all again to live at the place right now? I would as well. I wouldn't change a thing. Yeah. The pain and difficulty of the divorce and the years leading up to it, my ex-wife has agreed at times, and she may argue she was saying it in anger

or just to agree with me to get me to shut up, that the divorce was the right call. And honestly, probably could have pulled the trigger five to ten years earlier. But we did. And it is what it is. There are so many lessons in that time of the five to the 10 years, or even in the relationship in the beginning,

where I would have never guessed that it would have ended the way that did, that it will carry me forward and form the way that I am going forward. Yeah. I would not change, and especially because of my kids, I would go through, I mean, I would, I'm sure any parent would he crawl through hot coals just to cool off on a bed of pointy nails, you know, for your kids. So I would never, ever go back in time and change that because of them. But it, yeah, it changed my life for sure in the way that I view life.

And in the end for the better, I think. I often wonder, you know, whether you think there's a God or higher power or something, if there is such a being, why did they make it in a way where we have to go through this stuff in order to advance? Because it's the only way to advance is the hard shit. It's going through the fire, right? And I often wonder, Like if I were God and I created everything, would I make it that way? And why is it made that way? I don't know. Because they presumably could have made it easy.

It doesn't have to be this way. I have to take a guess that God has some level of comedic nature and cynicism as well. I think so too. For sure. It's like, you know what? I need to be entertained. Here's what we got. I'm not a religious guy by any stretch.

I'm completely open to the concept. It's just never landed with me. but yeah, if there was somebody up there, I feel like they've got a pretty good sense of humor. I think so too. Well, and I think it goes back to your sense of hubris. So for me, the sense of God is not the sense of religion. It's the sense that I'm not the biggest thing on this freaking universe.

And for anybody to think that they are is the highest level of hubris that you could have. How could anybody think that? So there's got to be something. I don't care if it's God in a higher part universe, whatever. Like there's something bigger than we are. There are some people out there though who, and I love this thought exercise. You'll ask people, like, if this table was the volume of all potentially known information ever, I'm going to give you a pen and you get to carve out what section of it you think you know size wise. Yeah, I was like, I need a smaller pen because this pinhead is too big.

There are people that might cut this table in half. Yeah. True. And I have so many questions for them. What questions do you have for them? What the fuck is wrong with you would be the first one? Well, what do you think? I mean, where do you think that comes from?

Hubris. Yeah, but where does hubris come from? I don't know. I think a variety of factors can lead you to a place of thinking that you are untouchable. I agree. Glorious ignorance. It would be one. I think it's insecurity.

Insecurity, not paying attention to the world around you. I mean, I don't know. And the reality is I wouldn't ask that to that person because I don't, I don't, don't need, I'm not a huge fan of the Stoics, even though I like some of the things. I shouldn't say I'm not a huge fan. I'm not well studied on the Stoics. Okay. One of the things I love that Marcus Aurelius did say, though, was not everything is being

asked to be judged by you. So draw your 50% of the table. I honestly probably would just go, hmm, cool, because the world's going to sort that out. It's true. You know what I mean? Not my circus, not my monkeys. It enlightens me as to maybe where I would want to position. in that person in my social circle.

True. But beyond that, it's actually their thought process on that is not being asked to be judged by me. But it's also, though, where you're at in your life and realizing that you've tried that so many different times

it didn't work versus like where Michael's at in his life, just based on age. Yeah. Right? Where I remember in my 20s, I used to be a lot more fired up about that shit than I am now in my 40s.

That's for sure. Yeah. Now I'm just like, you know what? If I just sit back, the universe, the world, they will show that person. Oh, it's coming. I don't need to tell them

And the universe is packing a lunch. A lot more than I do. So why not just let the universe take care? And you see it play out. It ends in confrontation. It ends in an argument. It might fracture social circles. It might fracture friendships.

It's cool. It's just it's a data point. Here's where I think it comes from. Let's go back to the hubris thing for a second. This is where I think it comes from. I think that for anyone to actually feel fulfillment and satisfaction in their life, there's only two things that they need. I think they need an honor.

loving, authentic relationship with themselves, whoever their authentic self is, and an honest, loving, authentic relationship with their higher power, whatever their higher power is. I think that's it. I think where we get into trouble is that we want validation or approval or anything else from anybody else outside of those two people. So whether that means society or it means my spouse or it means my kids or it means whoever because everybody else is going to let me down at all times and that's just not being cynical, it's the human experience.

So if I fully expect you or like even this podcast, right, if I just came here needing you to validate me, I'm going to leave empty. Because you might validate me for a little bit, but that's not going to validate me in my life. No. It's just not going to. It's only me and higher power.

And I think where people get into a lot of trouble and where this insecurity comes from is like, well, I don't have that good relationship. I don't have that good relationship with higher power. I don't have that good relationship with myself. Therefore, I'm insecure about that. Therefore, I need some sort of validation. Therefore, that turns into hubris

because that turns into, well, me making sure that I'm doing all the things as the puppet master to make sure that everybody else is feeling validated and validating me and everything else. That's my belief. I can get behind that. Yeah, people are weird and complicated. Yeah, I find as I get older,

the pinhead that I would ask for, it gets smaller and smaller. When I was 20, I might have cut this stuff. table and half. And I think that's the normal path. You just, you process time differently. But again, at 20, your brain's not even fully formed. So I'm curious now. How old were you when you went through your divorce? I got to do math here. I was 40. No, 42. The seven-year cycles worked for you, too, then. I don't know if I'd call it a midlife crisis, though. I never thought about it like that. I'd never... Well, the seven-year cycles don't say mid-life.

crisis either. I'm just saying you were right at the edge of that. Can you put it that up there again, the 35 to 42? Yeah. That that crisis moment. It did say crisis, right? It didn't say midlife crisis, but it did say crisis. I think so I'm going to have to get it real quick. You're pulling it back up. Yeah. What do you talk about on your podcast? It's changed a lot since I, so I started about a year and a half ago. You liking it? Yeah, I do. It's a fun medium. Well, am I liking it? I don't know. That It depends. Yeah. It depends.

Yeah, go down to the 35 to 42. But it's a lot of the same stuff we're talking about right now. I talk a lot about men being more authentically masculine themselves. We talk a lot about people that are helping go through divorce and other crisis. Yeah, it's crisis. Second paragraph for second sentence. There you go. Usually that crisis occurs in our early 40s.

Interesting. Cut down by events that seem beyond our control. Why do you think it is at that age? I think it's because, from my experience, life tends to cut me down when I think I haven't figured out. And I think that a lot of men think they haven't figured out around then. Because they've done the job things, they've done the career, they've done the family. Yeah, but it's not all men initiating the divorce. You know what I mean?

No, I understand. I'm not saying it has to be initiation. I just think that the crisis occurs, no matter who's initiating at that stage, because men are at a point where they think they have stuff figured out. think about it. You kind of have, like maybe you have a little bit of your career figured out. You have a little bit of family. Yeah.

You got some good experience. Right? Yeah. You're at the country club. You got the nice house. You got whatever. Whatever's important to you. Yeah.

And that's when life kind of tends to kick you in the ass for my experience. Fortunately for me, I've never figured out a damn thing. So I just keep failing. I call it failing forward. Somehow I seem to be a little bit more on my toes than my heels. We're asked to expand our vision of life and to embrace a more spiritual approach to life. I think that's interesting. We're learning to grow our souls.

Yeah. So what was your design when starting your podcast? What did you think it was going to be? You said it's changed quite a bit. So it actually started with me and a buddy of mine. We did it together. And the idea was we've both been in, he's in real estate, I'm in finance. And we just got tired of going to all these business conferences and everything else

and just people talking about their massive success. And they talk about this failure they had 20 years ago, right? Like, I just sold my company for a billion dollars. Let me tell you about this failure I had 20 years ago. Like, how does that help me today? The struggle is real. I'm still in it. I'm just a billionaire.

Right? Yeah. So what I realized that did to me, and maybe this did it to nobody else, but it did to my buddy, we both realized what that did to us is it wasn't motivating. Like, I understand the motivation's supposed to be, look at all these failures I had and now I'm success. Okay, great. But tell me when you're going through the shit.

Yeah. Like, I want to hear the person that's going through the shit. I need the valleys, not the wave tops. And that's the problem of social media. You're rewarded for the wavetops and the valleys are ignored. 100%. And the people that I respect on social media that have gone through all that, they talk about that.

And they talk about all the stuff that they went through. But our idea behind the podcast was, well, what if we just talked about the shit when we were in the middle of the shit without having it figured out and just saying, well, I learned this and this is what I'm going through. And so that was the idea behind it. That has then morphed to he eventually left because he decided that it was. He was also kind of going through this crisis period.

We're around the same time. And he was deciding, well, this isn't kind of how I want. He was kind of in a rebranding phase, let's say. He's like, this doesn't really feel like my brand. I'm like, okay, fine. So he left. And then what I realized afterwards is I was like, okay, but my real passion is helping guys,

especially these midlife guys, especially guys going through divorce, trying to figure this stuff out. So now it's really focused on either bringing on people that help those people or people that have that story. and talk about, okay, what is it like when you're going through it and how are you still dealing with it? Like, I can talk about my divorce from seven years ago

and talk about all the terrible stuff and all that sort of thing, but I could also talk about, well, how is that still affecting me? Yeah. And what's going on and how do I deal with that? Because, you know, maybe you're hard on yourself too, but I'm really hard on myself because I often just ask myself, like, well, who would want to listen to me? Like, what story do I have?

And only every day. I haven't arrived anywhere yet. So why does it matter? And then I remember a mentor told me a long time ago and he said, look, the only thing that you need to mentor anybody else is that you need to have a little bit of humility and you only need to be a step ahead of them. One step, not 100, just one. And that helps me greatly. Because if I can look at somebody and I say, look, man, I was just where you were a couple years ago going through all this shit. It helps.

And I can still feel it. Like it's still close enough to where I can feel the fire. I'm not so far away and I'm like, I have no idea. Like if you asked me what it was like at Michael's like, I have no idea. That was so long ago. I can't remember. I struggle to remember as well. I'm pretty sure I did dumb stuff though.

Yeah, I did. I only know that because courts keep records and stuff. It is all public. You think you'll ever get married again? Are you open to the idea, I should say? I'm open to it. You know, it's interesting you asked that because I just asked my kids the other day what the odds were that they thought how I would get married again,

and they were all like 50-50 on me. I was asking it as a thought experiment. Well, I was asking it as a thought experiment to see how cynical they thought I was about future relationships. Because if they would have been like, yeah, 90% chance you're not going to, then I would know I maybe need to tone down my language a little bit.

You were at a seven, I need you back in a four. Yeah, so they're all around half. I was like, ah, that seems reasonable. That's fair. So I am open to it. I'm going to go to something. you said about your son earlier. I, maybe this is my work

with the guys that I work with. Maybe it's my own experience. Maybe it's both. I don't see a lot of advantages for marriage anymore, for men, especially. Yeah. Because as much as courts have changed,

they're still against men more than they are women. Just look at facts. And I just don't, I just don't see a big advantage. I understand it maybe if it's a religious thing. Okay, I get it. But what's,

the advantage of getting married in the eyes of the government. I don't, I see a lot of disadvantages. I don't see a lot of advantages. It's fair. I've heard a lot of people talk about it that way. But the only thing I would say is keep a 0.01% open in the back of your mind that if you find the right person might change your mind. Because I had the same thought.

So to me, it's more about the commitment than it's about anything else. Yeah. And I'm not sure, I don't know. Is that needed for a commitment? Depends on the people. I don't think there's any right or wrong answer for that. Here's how I'll answer the question. Good buddy of mine went through divorce around the same time I did,

and he just got remarried to his new wife literally a couple weeks ago. And the main reason that he told me he did is because it was important to her. It was a commitment thing. That's how I would answer the question for you. I think if I met the right person and it was important to her, I wouldn't not want to do it. I would want to do it. Yeah. Because why not? I just don't see the advantage for myself.

It is an interesting conversation about involving the government in any personal relationship or affairs. Well, it's also just... They've proven to us that they're amazing at stuff. To me, it's the commitment thing, but I'm at a 70% failure rate at a second marriage. Is it really a high? 80% failure rate of the third marriage. No way. Yeah. 70%... I wonder why that is. It's something like that. You can have Michael look it up and fact check me. But it's something like that.

Wow. Divorce rates? Yeah, for second and third marriages. Yeah, for second and third marriages. Wow. So to me, is that really a commitment when that many are failing? I don't know. I would need, I mean, I would,

how else would you have the commitment? Like if you didn't get married. Yeah. I mean, there is something to be said for though. I mean, God. It sucks being alone, right? Do some people jump into something and try to force it? 60 to 75% of second marriages,

73 to 74, third marriage and divorced. I was a little high, but it's pretty close. Go click to show more, Michael. Factors contributing. Baggage from previous relationship, sure. Blended families, of course. Lower initial commitment. Some people may intersect their marriages

with less serious. Huh, okay. Similar relationship patterns, yeah, because if you don't change anything, nothing's going to change. Cultural and societal. Well, you know what brings that number up to is the people that go through the divorce.

They don't really learn how to be, you know, a healthy human being themselves that doesn't need somebody else. Jump back in way too early. Yeah. Well, yeah. Statistics are amazing thing. Your odds of being eaten by a shark are pretty low, but they don't really fucking matter when you're in its jaws. You know what I mean? But it's one in a million.

Like, womp. I'll tell you this story. So I wrote a short e-book last year, helping men with, like, the top five traps to avoid when you're going through. divorce. And one of the things that I did is I went out and I interviewed a bunch of people. So I interviewed coaches and lawyers and therapists and people that went through divorce. And I basically asked them all the same question. And I said, what are the top three mistakes that you made to try to help other people not make the same mistakes? You know what the number one answer from every single person was? They jumped into another relationship too soon. And what was fascinating

about that answer is it didn't matter if they jumped in a relationship one day later or two years later, they all had the same answer. Interesting. It wasn't a matter of time. It was a matter of where they were at. Yeah, I can see that. Because there is no timing. Somebody might be ready a day later. Somebody might not be ready for 10 years. I don't know. Yeah. But when you're not ready and you're carrying all the stuff like we were talking about, you're carry on, right? Yeah. You're carrying all the stuff into the next marriage. It's no wonder that they all end in divorce. Yeah. So I don't want to be cynical and say I would never get married again simply because the divorce rates are so high. Because that's unhealthy as well.

I just don't see the advantage of getting married unless it's that commitment piece that might be important to her. I think that's a good answer. Because most states anyway, they have common law marriage if you're going to live with somebody. Yeah. So it doesn't really matter if you get married anyway. It's going to be the same thing if you get divorced. Yeah. Either way.

I think that's fair. I just don't know another way of doing it. Like what other way could you show that commitment to somebody without the marriage? forehead tattoos. Sublime tattoos. Her name is on your forehead. Yours is on hers. Yeah.

No regards. That's it. I don't see it. I was just trying to see if you were in the process of getting it removed. My wife, no, she's anti-tattoo. Oh, is she? On herself. She just doesn't have one.

She was anti-dog, too, because she'd never have one. And now we have a miniature dachshund. And she's like, I didn't know you could love anything this much. Granted, he is amazing. Michael Wienzitz from time to time. an amazing dog. I'm very much looking forward to next week. Yeah, the wean's amazing.

Nice. It's a total asshole. He understands everything you're saying, and we'll just look at you and say, no. He's like a cat. With his eyes, yeah. He's just, yeah. He's like, fuck you cat. Yeah, I'm like, Hobby, come here.

And he just, no. Just turns his head and saunter's off. He's got a set of plums on him, I tell you, though. For a miniature dachshund, if he was a human being, canalops. Yeah. Yeah. It's impressive. Yeah.

Never getting rid of them. I would like to show. case them or, if I'm being honest. How would you do that? Instagram, obviously. Just a whole Instagram account just dedicated to... No, just in the background. I'll take pictures of other things, but the plums will just always be just kind of around. I do that. I do actually. Yeah, I post about them all the time. Are they just kind of in the background somewhere? Sometimes they're not even in the background.

Sometimes they're in the foreground. A little Where's Waldo situation? Well, he likes to just lay on his back with his paws up. I'm like, that's not a tough picture to take, bud. You know what? Isn't that just how confident you want to be as a guy, right? Dogs. I'm just not that confident. Neither am I. Yeah. Wouldn't that be the best though? You just...

I mean, except for the eating each other's ass out when you meet a new person. Hey, teach their own. I mean, yeah, don't judge that. Who am I to judge? Well, I want to get you back to your kids. You've been out for over two hours. What do you want to close that with?

Hmm. A good one is where can people find your stuff? Yeah, that's good. Well, we mentioned Instagram already. I like Instagram a lot because I use the messaging platform there often. And I reply to... all the messages I want to reply to. I used to say I replied all the messages.

That's just not true anymore. My EA does a lot of it. But yeah, reach out to me on Instagram. I love having personal conversations there for anybody that has, you know, doesn't have to be about work or business or coaching or my podcast or anything. Just reach out. Specifically, again, that 35 to 50-year-old male who's either going through divorce, getting divorced, and they just don't know where to turn.

We're always building tribes and building groups of guys to put them with each other to show them how to have conversation around that. So that's a good place. So on Instagram, my tag is Josh the derelict. You're right on the show notes. I'll put it in the show notes. Yeah. D-E-R-E-D-R-E-L-I-C-T. Got it. Most people only know that word from Zoolander. Darylique. Do you know that from Zoolander? That's the first thing I thought of when I saw your shirt. I can derelake my own balls. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what it is. You know what's travesty is that in not that many years, people won't understand that.

People already don't understand that. I'm going to be honest, Michael gets, let's be fair here. Yeah, how many of his jokes? 10% of the jokes. No, no, no, not the jokes, the movie references, two out of 10? Yeah. Have you seen the Boondock Saints yet? You're a terrible person.

You have to watch Boondock Man. I've seen all the naked guns, though. It's pretty much the same movie. What? You guys haven't seen Naked Gun? No, no. How is that the same movie? I don't care about the naked gun.

Yeah, the naked gun correlating to the Boondock Saints is what tripped me up. I'm joking. We both actually said what. At the exact same time, I know. And also, are you talking about the new naked gun? Have you guys seen the new naked gun? No, I've heard it's good, though. I've heard it's good.

I feel like you don't even know what the Boondock Saints is about. If you think it's anything like. For sure. No, I was joking. But I assume there's also guns and the Boondock Saints. Let me give you a selling point here for the Boondock Saints. He kills a man with a toilet. That's pretty.

Awesome. Thank you. Go watch it. It's relatively early in the movie, too. It's always hooked. Russian gangster with a desert eagle gets smoked by a toilet. Maybe I'll watch that when I'm watching Huffy. We own it on Apple and the account is unlocked.

Actually, just start at the A's in the... And just keep going. Well, actually, here's the problem. What's the first one under A I? No, probably the accountants or something like that. But don't do that because I've had that. Apple ID, since my kids were children, there is a robust amount of children's movies in there. And Dora the Explorer.

Sure, the kids, right. So you could look at the date that it was purchased. You're like, wow, that is a long time ago. So there's some good ones in there, though. You'll understand more about life. For sure. I'm going to go watch Boondock Saints again in this conversation. It's so good.

It's been too many years for me. Sean Patrick Flannery, 4th 3B Black Belt. He is in the Boondock Saints. Cool. Yeah. I'm just trying to figure out. is to interest you in going and watching this. Arguably, there's a bartender with Tourette's.

It's fantastic. Fuck, ass. And he says that in front of nuns. What else do I need to tell you about this movie? It's one of those movies, Michael, that the pop culture that came out of it has influenced a lot of other movies and a lot of things that you've seen. So it's influential. When you go watch the movie, you're like, oh.

It's going to trigger your mind for other things. Absolute economic failure at the box office, too. Absolutely, yeah. And it just crushed cult classic probably the Blu-ray DVD era. Yeah, it just became a cult classic. Yeah, it's amazing. But it just bombed at theaters. Yeah, it's terrible.

Which I would have enjoyed watching it there. Yeah. I'm going to say twice a year. I did not see in that theater for sure. I didn't either. So, well, cool, man. Let me get you out of here. Thanks for having.

Yeah, thanks for making the trip, man. Appreciate you. Cool.