Cleared Hot - Powered By BRCC - From the Edge to Enlightenment: A Firefighter's Resilient Journey - with Rick Bucher

Episode Date: August 14, 2023

In this episode, we dive deep with Rick Bucher, a man whose life narrative reads like an adrenaline-packed novel. From daring adventures as a sports athlete to serving the community of Scottsdale with over 16,000 calls, Rick has witnessed the extremities of life. But it's not just his encounters with external dangers that make his story remarkable; it's the internal battles he's faced and conquered that truly inspire. From the precipice of despair following near-death experiences and grappling with PTSD, to the exhilarating highs of reuniting with his biological family, Rick's journey encapsulates the triumph of the human spirit over adversity. Today, he's on a mission to light up the path for others, especially those in public safety, to acknowledge their mental battles and seek help. Join us as we explore the interplay of hope, resilience, and unity in Rick's extraordinary tale of redemption. This episode is a testament to the indomitable spirit that resides in all of us. Sign up for the new G14 newsletter here: https://www.clearedhotpodcast.com/exclusive Check out the newest Cleared Hot Gear here: https://shop.clearedhotpodcast.com/  

Ladies and gentlemen, what's up? You know who this episode is brought to you by. That's right. It's Black Rifle Coffee. You probably already know what Black Rifle Coffee is, right? It's a coffee company founded by a group of veterans that is continuously giving back, trying to move the needle in the veteran space and charity space when it comes to veterans. But let's talk about what you can do with Black Rifle. I'm saying that from the lens of it's August now. but guess what's right around the corner. Christmas, that's right. I'm already going to start talking about things you can think of when it comes to finding the perfect gift.

Because if you're like me, you procrastinate a little bit. My recommendation, if you have somebody who is a coffee lover, think about stuff that they could use. I'm at a place in my life where I don't like really even giving things, but the things that I do want to give, I want them to have a purpose. So if you have a coffee lover, sign him up for a coffee subscription or get them some cool T-shirts or a cool thing to drink coffee out of. Make coffee in, hats, mugs, shirts, whatever it may be.

Forward, thank you a little bit with me. Black Riflecoffee.com for all your coffee needs. And that's it on the business side of the house. Let's talk about my guest today. He's a repeat guest. His name is Rick Booker. Now, the first time I had Rick on, we talked very deeply about his attempted suicide. And the phrasing terminology, phraseology that I used in that description apparently irritated some people.

And I just want to be clear. I was using the words that he used because it's not on me to speak for him or to describe his experience. I repeated what he had said in that episode. And I'm not sure why it upset people. But the episode had a tremendous impact. And Rick happened to be passing through Montana again. And we had the opportunity to sit down and talk about everything that has happened post that podcast episode, what it meant to him and what it has meant to. countless others that have reached out since then. So, let's get into this. Episode number 298 with Rick Booker. Enjoy. To the smoke, I'm looking at danger close now. Come on one of a minute. Can't be clear not.

On today's NPR, the smooth notes of jazz. Sweet. Are you a member of NPR? Yeah, I'm a monthly don't nader. Are you really? No. Okay, just checking. I don't care either way.

I don't have any judgment. That was a smooth response on his part. I've trained him. Pretty believable. I am, I like to call it forging him, trying to turn him into the man that I think he can become. Because right now he's the man that society is trying to turn him into. So he's just soft like a piece of fucking chew bubble gum. Make sure to take my soy pills, eat my soy meat, tofu.

Soy meat? Jesus, we're off the rails. Welcome back to Montana. Why, thank you. In order to help make this a standalone, I'm going to let you introduce yourself and give us a brief synopsis of the first time we sat down and people can go back and reference that if they want, but then we can springboard from there. So it'll just make it easier. So I'm going to turn it over to you. Good idea.

Introduce yourself. My name is Rick Booker, and I did 27 years in Scottsville, Arizona. I was a firefighter paramedic. And I was also on the technical rescue team. survived a suicide attempt a little over three years ago, retired three years ago, after getting treatment and diagnosis with major depressive disorder, anxiety, and complex PTSD.

So... You lost some stuff out. When I came on last year, that was a great opportunity for me to, to share my story and my background and kind of events that led up to me getting into the fire service and the effect that that career had on me. How much had you talked about it previously? Publicly, very little.

I'd done a couple of podcast episodes, smaller platforms. But I didn't really come out and lift my skirt up to the world and tell everybody my story. Michael doesn't understand that metaphor. He would be, oh, you unzipped your fly. Got it, unsipped your fly. It's more of a glizzy man. I don't know if that's in your modern vernacular. I'm usually the one in the skirt.

See, we're turning him in, we're forging him. Forged, forged in, I don't know, pick a word. Yeah. Yeah, so I kind of, I made a decision. I'd listen to Cleared Hot for an extended period. And one day I kind of thought, what am I doing? And I had taken a, I took an office job to develop a mobile acute care unit for a physician's group back in Arizona. So I was working an office job sitting behind a desk, dressing business casual five days a week.

And I hated it. I was going to say, what would you rate your quality of life at? or satisfaction? Here's the interesting thing. It was satisfying because I was creating something essentially from scratch and watching it work. And we were keeping people out of the ER, essentially. We would send an SUV out with a nurse and a medical assistant, and they had a ton of equipment, medications.

This was during COVID, so we were doing monoclonal antibody infusions. We were killing it. We're doing good work, but the process was just killing me. I'm not made for sitting behind a desk. Yeah. And one of those days, yeah, I was asking myself, what are you doing? Like, what good are you really doing? Kind of in the vein of taking the shit sandwich that I had presented myself with through a suicide attempt and treatment and all that.

And I just, I wanted to do something to give back and create an awareness and have some kind of an impact on my community in the fire service. But then that further expanded into public safety and now military. So I said, fuck it. And I wrote you an email. And I don't know. Lo and behold, I wrote back. Yeah. It was like four sentences.

I figured, the worst he could. say is no. And you essentially wrote back and said, I record in Calispell, Montana. When can you be here? And I think it was, I think it was 10 days later. A lot of people, that's the response that I give. People reach out to me all the time, sometimes on social media, most of the time on email, oftentimes recommending their friends for a guest for an episode. And I'll write back, Hey, sounds super interesting. I record in Calispell. Oh, I can't make it.

I'm like, I can't help you. Yeah, can't record. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah, these are the conditions. Too much loss. Yeah. No, I was pretty footloose and fancy free,

and I had actually hired someone to do my job at that group at that point, so I was able to step aside for a week and come up here and just see a small portion of this area. And when I did, I thought got to come back here for sure. But yeah, after that episode, at the end of the episode, I included my contact information. Didn't expect a whole lot of response, but I stopped counting at 100. And they kept coming. What were they contacting you about? Sharing stories or inquiring about you coming and speaking about your experience?

Yes. Or option C, yeah, both. So it was interesting because it was everything from dude. It took a pair of balls to come forward and tell your story on that big of a stage. Because this is some embarrassing shit for a lot of people, you know, to step forward and say, I suffered a mental health crisis and got to a point where I decided that ending my life was the solution. That doesn't sit well with a lot of people. What's embarrassing about that, though?

I think as a type A male, it's a form of failure. As defined by who? Society generally, but I think to... I have a theory on that. For myself, you know, I raced bicycles for 30 years. Let's be clear. You're talking about bicycles with horsepower, not pedal. I raced pedal bikes.

But you also race motorcycles. I race. Let's not talk about what's that require you to move your links. It's the throttle motion. So I'm like 17 years old, and I'm doing a bicycle road race in Arizona in the mountains. And I was off the back of the group, and my parents pulled up next to me in the car. They were following the race. And I said, hey, I want to stop.

I'm going to quit. And the window rolled up, and they drove up. on up the road. And I was right next to this gigantic oak tree, for whatever reason I remember this tree. And I got off my bike and I thought, well, I can either hitch a ride to the start finish line or I can get my ass back on the bike and not quit.

Regardless of finishing last, at least I'm finishing. And at this point, I really just need the transportation to even fucking get there. So swung the leg over the bike and I peddled the remaining, whatever, 20 or 30 miles up this brutal climb to get to them where they were waiting for me. And my dad looked at me and he said, don't ever quit. When that is instilled in you from a young age, I think that the idea of suicide and the thought of that

and the concept of that can feel like a failure. Because you're quitting. Yeah, but that's an incomplete lesson. like the lesson of regardless of how hard things are or how you feel about what's going on you should never get up never get up you should never give up you should always get up up never give up i'm with you there's a bumper sticker in there somewhere yeah that's a great lesson but it's not complete because i mean let me ask you this how many suicides do you guys respond to when you were working 27 years as firefighter, probably countless, more than you probably

care to. Probably 200, I would say. How many of those do you think arrived at that decision? I would imagine, at least in the community that I come from, there's generally a component of alcohol involved in that. But the largest component in that, in addition to alcohol, is isolation. And I worry that the incomplete message of never give up, somehow, you know, never quit, never give up, somehow is translated into never tell anybody what's going on in your life,

that you have to figure all of this out by yourself. I think the isolation aspect, and I think men or worse at that than women, women seem to be... Yeah, I agree. They seem to be more so. Actually, that's... Out of the suicides that you responded to,

obviously this is anecdotal, because I don't think you probably kept a tally, what was the men versus women ratio? That was probably even, but the mode of the act tended to be more violent with men. That doesn't surprise me. Yeah. Women, let's face it, don't want to shoot themselves in the head and be and die ugly.

They are... I've never thought about that, but okay. I guess that checks out. They are a wrist slash. They are an overdose. Yeah. The guys, nine times out of ten, is a firearm. Yeah.

I ran a call on a guy that lit himself on fire. Really? I ran a call on a guy that threw himself into traffic. There was... Actually, I had a woman that set herself on fire also in her house with her kids and their friends upstairs playing. Yeah. Did they live? Well, the kids were rescued out of the second story window above the garage by a crew that threw a ladder, got them.

And then my crew found the woman in her bedroom on the ground floor. And that was one of the ones where I learned how easily skin slides off of arms. It's a technical term called sloughing. Yeah. Yeah, don't Google. We'll go ahead and skip that one. It wasn't going to. Yeah.

But anyway, so, yeah, the violent versus the relatively nonviolent nature, go back to that lesson that I, the incomplete lesson that I learned on the road bike at the race that day. Well, the reason that it got me thinking about that is that the statement that what you went through could be considered embarrassing. What better way to isolate somebody who may be going through whatever it, whatever. it is that maybe would be leading them towards that is, I don't even want to say it's a reasonable option because I consider it to be an, it's not a rational decision. But whatever it is, but whatever it is that is leading them towards that, fuck. What better way to accelerate that journey than for that person to think, if I say something about this, I'm going to be judged. If I say something about this, people are going to laugh at me or they're going to be embarrassed.

I don't think there's anything. I think you are denying reality as a human being. to think that you are alone in your suffering. I know people from every spectrum of the economic wheelhouse, from poverty to sums of money that I actually don't even understand. None of them are without problems. Oh, for sure. But trying to deal with a problem by yourself, I just think, again, I spend far too much time,

or maybe not too much time, but I spend a good amount of time thinking about suicides and why it is so prevalent in the community that I came from. And I suspect I'm just going to lump it up the first responder community as well, because I know it's prevalent in police and ambulance personnel and fire. It's just put it. I think that isolation has something to do with it. That stigma that you can't or that if you do talk, they're going to take your badge and gun.

If you say something, they're going to remove you from whatever it is you've wanted to do your entire life. I think it's hanging but embarrassing. I would hope that at some point in time we can change the narrative on that at a national level, and people would be much more open to talk about it because maybe you would have an impact. Here's what I needed when I crossed the finish line at that race. Some water? I needed my parents to look at me and say, we didn't roll up the window and drive away because we hate you.

But do you realize now, that you can do so much more than you think you're capable of. Yeah. Particularly when you feel like quitting, when you feel like stopping. Find somewhere to put your mind, dig deep, put your head down, and keep peddling. That would have been the valuable back half to that lesson. I'm going to guess since you described it like that, that second half of the lesson did not occur. is, yeah, get your bike in the car, we're going home.

And that's how you could have the best intentions in the world and actually do damage. You know, you can think. But here's the thing about me and racing. I was a very successful bicycle road racer. I think I won seven or eight races my first season as I was, whatever, 14, 15 years old. And I was a sprinter. So I grew up racing BMX. I had bike handling skills from that and power and speed.

and if it was a flat race and I was around at the end, I was probably going to take it. But that race that I got dropped was a climbing race. So it just didn't, it didn't suit me. Not the same skill set. Right. So when you look at, if you're going to draw a parallel, it would be this between those two stories. And we'll tie into a transition from duty to civilian life. when you're on duty as a firefighter or a cop or you're in the military, you have a purpose.

You have a routine. When you leave that, a lot of people are left struggling. Well, they lose their community, and that, again, I think, ties into that isolation aspect. Well, they lose their community, but their community loses them. Yeah. And I say that not coincidentally, because my. own city essentially turned its back on me. You know, I made an offer to do some speaking for the department, and it was met with a, we have a program that works, thanks anyway. So I think the key

is that when a firefighter retires, the lights and sirens keep going. The trucks keep running calls, life goes on. And you're gone. Like, you're gone and in most cases forgotten to some extent because of my story, I'm sure that shit, I mean, that probably gets talked about on a daily basis at least one fire station in Scottsdale, Arizona, every day or every week. But for the most part, people retiring that just disappear. So you're left wondering what the, what the fuck do I do now? Like I can put everything into my pool cleaning business because every firefighter has a side gig, side hustle. I'll go full force into contracting or whatever it is. But I think the challenge is making whatever you go into after your transition fill that

enormous void that's left after you're off duty. But how can you do that? I don't think you can. At a conceptual level, it's like, we have two cups. When we leave cup A, make sure you refill cup B, which is exactly the same volume. There's no way you can replace the things that your previous job provided for you. Same here. Or anybody who comes from a world that is that visceral and filled with that level of experiences

that I would describe at the fringe of what most people can encounter in their life and probably would never want to. It would pay their entire net worth to never roll up to the car wreck scene where the family is littered across the road and you have to go pick up the kids. Like, nobody wants to see that shit. Right. There is no pool cleaning job that is going to fill that hole. There is not.

So what I am, I'm trying to fill that. void with a couple things. So the concept of service that I'm doing with RB603 and public speaking. What is RB603? So that's my company. And it is just that. It's me. Is that some weird Star Wars shit? What do we got going on? No. Rick Booker. Damn it. Fucking alphabet. R2D2 or something. Hey. Is 603 the Scottsdale area code?

Hey, Andy. Yeah. My name is Rick Book. Oh, I know that. But like RB603. Is 603 the Scottsdale area code? No, 603 was the last engine company that I worked on. Okay.

So engine 603. All right. See, that all makes sense. Yeah. Let's be honest. If somebody said real quickly, RB603, you'd be like, that's some Star Wars shit. BB8. I don't know.

R2D2? Michael does, please. Michael. I mean, yeah, it kind of sounds like R2D2. Exactly. But now with context, I know it's not. Yeah, well, I didn't have that context. text today, Michael. So how about you

just shut the fuck up? What you do now? I do now. And I feel like an idiot, which is how I go through most of my days. So, so RB603 is short, it's catchy, it's easy to remember a Google search shows that. Although I couldn't get RB603.com

because somebody fucking took that. Don't tell me you on with like a dot org or dot CO. No, I'm RB603.net. It's the best I could do, man. Is it, though? Is it? On that day, in those conditions.

What does dot net even mean? The best. I don't know. And I googled that to try and do some research and make sense of it. Michael, what comes up when you hit RB603.com? That's a good question. Let me see. Probably like a Furby website or something.

I think it's hosted, but it's not. It does not anything up. You might be able to buy it if you wanted to. There's a service or services that you can reach out to, and they'll do that. type of stuff. Yeah. Looks like Go Daddy owns it right now. Someday when I have some money.

Yeah. You might be able to get it for like $15. That'd be cool. I think there are actually organizations out there that scoop up and I think this happens to why this bullshit information is in my head. But I think it happens to up and coming celebrities. People go out and they scoop up domains with the hope to try to sell it back. Right.

That's the kind of shit that goes around between my ears. You're welcome, everybody. I guess the lesson that is, if you're going to be famous, go buy a website. They had to have had a crystal ball to, to do RB 603. Or watch the NFL draft. True. So that service thing.

I'm speaking publicly. What I'm trying to do at the heart of it is eliminate the stigma involved with stepping forward and asking for help. Now, of those 100 plus folks that reached out to me, yes, there were, hey, took a pair to tell your story. Thanks, brother. I thought I was alone. that, to when can you get to Gulf Shores, Alabama to speak to our fire department? When can you be in Calgary, Alberta to talk to our organization, that kind of stuff. Do they want you, when they reach out, to talk about your experience so that other people

develop a level of comfort in talking about their owner? Are they basically trying to crack that facade and stigma of just shutting up and dealing with it yourself? I think there's two things at work. The first is the fact that my story is one of amazing hope, particularly after being to the depths of a really dark place. And your episode, you know, 10 months ago would be a great place for people to start and actually hear that whole story. Michael, can you look up which episode it was so we can let you know? Yes, it is.

245. Episode 245. At the end of that, I wind up essentially finding a family that I never knew I had. So the idea that that never would have happened had I succeeded is kind of interesting. And I think it brings hope to a lot of people. And it's kind of the punchline to the story. Like when I tell my story, I give my background, I talk about the fire service, I talk about what I did, I talk about what I do and did outside of the fire service, and then how I got to where I got, and then the transformation and the treatment after that. So that gives people hope.

When I resigned from Scottsdale Fire, I invited my fire chief out to a bar, and I slid my first. resignation letter across the table to him. And I said, what is it going to take to not have this shit happening to our firefighters? And he said, it's going to take somebody like you with the amount of time on that you have to tell the story. Now, you can have a firefighter or a cop that's been on for a month, and they can experience trauma on an incredible scale. Maybe their first shift. Undeniable. Yeah.

For sure. Could be their first call. What I think I bring is a certain additional level of credibility and experience. And the reason is this. And here's why it's a little odd. People look at a really experienced firefighter, paramedic, technical rescue tech. I'm flying around on helicopters. I'm doing all those crazy rescue shit.

and people think I'm bulletproof. Man, that guy is rock hard. Nothing could possibly bother him. He teaches technical rescue to the entire valley. He's got a shit-wired type. To some extent, the opposite is true. Because when you have that much time on, you get that cumulative effect of trauma,

on top of trauma, on top of trauma. So yeah, man, for the last probably five years of my career, I would have been a fine if the lights never came on again at night and I never had to run another call. So that brings us to that transition problem. And how do you fill that void? Because I... Should you try to?

Because that's another question I asked myself. Well... Would it be healthier? Throughout my career, people said I was an adrenaline addict. That's super common. In the first responder world military war too. Because, okay, yeah, I race bicycles. I climbed rock. I raced motorcycles. You know, did all this stuff.

From the outside looking in, I don't blame people for thinking that. However, in my experience, the people inside of those communities are the exact opposite. However, like I said, viewed through the lens of not really understanding the people, I could totally see why they would say that. Yeah. It was not my experience, though. Right. And there's, it's a frame of reference that the public just doesn't have. They don't have any accurate yardstick to measure that with. So I refer to myself now as a risk management expert, retrospectively looking at this, because I found it interesting and challenging and fun

to try to remain as calm as I possibly could in the face of great danger. Yeah. and I mean there were times where we'd be um we'd be in the truck on the wrong side of the road lights and sirens with a column of smoke in the distance a big one and we were talking about what we were going to make for dinner

like that kind of shit is that's real yeah I mean that's the same as us doing mission planning or sitting on a helicopter and talking about stuff that is completely outside of the realm of what people think that you would be obsessed with or thinking about and about, I don't know, probably depending on the person somewhere between five minutes out and one minute out, you flip the switch and it's game time. But then what would also shock people is how fast you can loosen those straps. You go to work. Oh, yeah. And then when you got back on the truck, probably regardless, I'm sure there was some gallows humor involved a little bit in your guy's occupation.

There certainly was in ours. Oh, yeah. Which I think is probably a pretty natural way to process stuff. But then it was short bursts of what I'll call very highly focused work time, bookended by behavior that most people probably wouldn't be super impressed with. Here's something weird. A lot of the times when we were flying in and I was going to get hoisted down out of the helicopter on the winch cable to go do a rescue, I would find myself yawning. I slept on helicopters. It's a freaking weird.

Yeah, but if you're used to being on helicopters, they lull you to sleep. I can sleep on a C-130? Yeah. I'm out within like two minutes on a C-130. Skydiving rig on, just, and I'll wake up when they open the ramp. Yeah. Which would freak most people out. Rocking, it rocks you to sleep.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. Do you think it's healthy, though, to even frame it to people that they need to replace what their job provided? Because would you, the, the. I'm trying to think of the best way to describe this. I feel like all of those types of jobs have an expiration date on people regardless of who you are.

Yeah. So it actually might be better if you get to that expiration date that you find something completely different to try to rebuild yourself or maybe not rebuild, but redefine who you are as opposed to trying to replace what it is that you just left because you're going to burn out. Yeah. It's a pivot. And I think that the key probably isn't replacing something, replacing it with something that's adrenaline-fueled and dangerous and all that. And that's a hypocritical statement based on what I've just done this week. It's hard to find a level of fulfillment in things that don't provide some level of that if you come from that world.

think what gets people is that slowly over time you get complacent and you get used to it. I'm not going to say you get immune to it, but I think it can lead people to a threshold of risk where they stop paying attention to it. And it's like the only way that they can feel alive. And if you get to that point, I think you're on a one way road to some problems. Yeah. And that's where speeding in traffic, getting involved in whatever kind of illegal activity, you know, just to try and get, you know, that. I think replacing it with something that you're passionate about and something that you can focus 100% completely on. And I just thought of this example. So two nights ago, I'm fishing in the North Fork of the Flathead River.

Which is super ugly. People should not come visit. I shouldn't have said. I was fishing on the Mississippi River. Yeah. Well, there's no fish in the North Fork. I've been told anyway. So don't even waste your time.

It's raining off and on. it's cold. I'm in my waiters up, you know, up to my waist, and I'm tying on a fly. And my hands are starting to shake because it's like that cold. My fingers are getting numb. And I thought, just focus completely on this, trying to get that tiny little 5x tip it through a number 18 hook. And I found myself completely absorbed in that. And there were, there were, there wasn't another thing on the planet that I was concerned about or that I was thinking about. And it was because I was centered. So I think you can get centered and you can be passionate about something without it having to be lowered out of a helicopter or going through a flaming doorway or saving lives and property.

I think the issue is that you have to be okay with that. And I think proximity from previous occupation, the farther are you away from it, I think the more okay you can be with that. I see, I think the, man, it's not an even scale. I mean, it isn't, but some guys struggle a decade later. You have to do something, but you have to do something with a purpose. not that the activity has to have a purpose. I mean you need to be purposeful in the path that you need to set yourself on. Like not every activity needs to have a purpose.

Like you don't have to fuck wake up and structure every 10 minutes of your day. And this is my focus on this, this, or do if you want to. I mean, that's not my jam. And that can be part of the challenge because I knew that when I went to work, I was going to show up at about 7, 715, relieve the offgoing medic or engineer or company office or whatever slot I was in that day. And then by 8 o'clock truck and equipment checks, we're going to get done. We were going to start planning a drill.

I was going to sit down with a crew. We were going to talk about, you know, what we had to do as a team for the day. There was a routine. Incredibly structured, it sounds like. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, you have to somehow get that transition right in order for you to feel healthy. Once you're out of it.

Would it be possible for the fire service to provide an off-ramp for people to help them do that? You mean like the military does? Yeah, the military program is what? A fucking week? Awesome. I think it's two weeks. It's called TAPS. Or it was when I was in.

Transition Assistance Assistance Program S. If I could just interrupt for a minute, is that not the worst fucking choice of name? When do they play TAPS? At nighttime? when somebody dies? Well, they played at nighttime? Revely in the morning, Taps at night. Michael, when do they play Taps?

That's what I'm looking up right now. I thought it was the trumpet. Taps is the last call, played at U.S. military bases in the evening, and it sounds at funerals, memorial service, and replaying. At both. They play it as the... There's Revely in the morning when the flag goes up.

There's Taps at night when the flag comes down. Okay, so being on the outside. I wasn't aware of the flag coming down, but I had heard TAPS at a military funeral. And now the transitional training from service to civilian is called TAPS. They could have done better. Yeah, kind of weird. To my knowledge, I haven't heard of that program anywhere in the fire service. There's nobody that's – I mean, the union is –

Don't be fooled about what the military provides on the way out. Okay. So I – A little bit of money management advice. Are you choking? Fuck, I don't know. What did they give you? How to do laundry?

Man, how can I politely talk about this? First, let me just say my experience with it was very truncated because I, there was like a one week or a two-week block. I forget what it was. It's a piece of, you know, it's one of the many multiple line items that you have to get signed before they're going to allow you to transition out and pick up your DD-214. You have to go there with all of this discharge paperwork filled out. If it's all good to go, the guy, John Hancock's your DD-214. you're out. I think I spent 30 minutes at the actual facility where they provided the TAPS training. And I don't think that is uncommon. It is very common for the community of people that I came from to have the experience that I did.

My understanding is that they give you a relatively thorough explanation of the VA programs. They're going to be available to you. I am not aware of any money management. I'm not aware of the military providing any money management, education, planning, facilitation at all whatsoever. God, I mean, I'm over the front of my skis. They didn't tell you how to open a coffee shop or anything? No, no. Was I drinking coffee back then?

Yes, I was drinking coffee back then. But, yeah. Anyway, all of that illustrates the fact that we don't have instruction on how to transition. So that is on a, and what we just talked about is retirement. And let's call that the macro view of it. For firefighters, paramedics, and PD, that transition happens on a micro level, every shift. Yeah, that makes sense. So think about what that feels like, going from having the best job in the world,

doing what you're truly passionate about, having an impact, just amazing things to your mundane way of life if it is and that transition that goes on back and forth every day

yeah I mean I think that I think that that identity I had a therapist one year that told me you have to put your cape on when you go to work and you have to take your cape off when you go home yeah good luck with that

that. It's impossible. Especially when you're... You change your identity every day? Well, you're not going to change your identity. Let me ask you a few questions that I think I know the answer to. Your social circle, did you hang out with a lot of firefighters? Hell no. Really? Not...

You're unique. Maybe my first five to seven years, yeah, almost all my friends were firefighters, but then after that, and that kind of demarcates a transition in my career and my headspace. But yeah, after a while, didn't hang out with any firefighters at all. How many people did you see, though, where you go into that profession? And so you're at work, you're hanging out at work talking about work. But then when you leave work, you all hang out together, which leads you to talk about work. And you get these little isolated pods of people that, you know, using the cape analogy that the therapist did, it's like you just stays on. Because if you're hanging out with the people outside of work that you work with, you're going to talk about work.

Your entire identity as a person is going to be what you do when you're on shift. That's not a well-rounded approach to life. Well, and I did it because I was married to a firefighter. And she and I were together for 13 years. And the fire service definitely changed her, had an effect on her. But, yeah, I felt like I couldn't get away from the fire service. I loved doing it. Yeah.

But I just, I needed to be. insulated from it on days off and I wasn't able to do that. So that was, but that was forced, essentially. I mean, it was a, it was a choice being with that person. But when you're choosing to hang out with firefighters, you're choosing to hang out with cops, that's, that's a personal choice that you're making, a decision that you're making. But you have to have people that are outside of that circle in your life. And in a relationship transition that I've gone through recently, I reached out to some guys that I call my wise men.

I've got a couple guys that I can really count on to answer the phone anytime I call. And I can count on them to tell me, dude, you're fucked up, or dude, you're completely right. I understand what you're saying. Or, hey, man, here's some advice. This is what I would do if I were you. So my wise men. One of them is a firefighter.

The other, I know, through Land Rover's and that club. But they're not in my immediate friend group that I see on a daily or weekly basis. These are guys that a year or two could pass. And then when you call them, it's like you just talked to them yesterday. I think it's relatively common with men, a little bit more uncommon with women. Why do you think that is with women? Well, I think the data is out on this. They speak more words per day than the average man does in his lifetime.

So, and dudes are just like the guys that I have gone apart with from, you know, my old job in the military, I could not see them for 10 years. And if no bullshit, you gave me three to five minutes, we're up to speed. Totally. It just is. I don't know. I think guys are just different when it comes to that type of relationship. And I don't have an expectation that they're going to reach out to me all the time. I hope they don't have an expectation that I'm going to reach out to them all the time.

It's not malicious. Fucking life happens. But when we link up, it's literally, no joke, less than 300 seconds. And we are back and running. I have no idea what. What about this? So we talked about the different suicidal scenarios between. the sexes. What do you think that transition is like for women coming out of the service

or coming out of public safety and transitioning into, because they, I don't think they're going to have the same maybe employment opportunities, the same drive to do the same things. I think it depends on what they did. I didn't, I serve, there were women at the seal teams that I served at, but from an operational capacity other than an interpreter. or women that we would take on target that would help with searching women and kids. I don't know what that would necessarily look like. I think it would depend on what your job was inside of the military. In other words, serving a combat versus non-combat role?

Not even necessarily that. I mean, in the Navy, they're called NECs. And I think the Army and Marines is called an MOS. It's basically your occupational training. And I think the opportunities that you'll have when you get out are going to be based off of the core competency that you did while you were in. Yeah, makes sense. I don't think, I would hope that whether or not you served in combat wouldn't be a

differentiating factor because you don't have any real control over that. What about the, what about the effect of that purpose? Do you think that crosses the line between the sexes? I mean, societally, the female purpose is your family. For some people. And taking care of that. In a traditional fan, you know. I think it depends on why you join.

I think it's a misconception for people to think that all military service has like this grandiose. I'm red, white and blue, and I'm doing this to preserve the rights of others. For people that I know and that I serve with, especially pre-9-11, like the GI Bill was one of the main things that people were looking at. They were looking for a difference in their socioeconomic status. then I'll give you four years and get a master's degree and occupational training along the way. Post 9-11, I think I would say it's probably, man, if you were looking at the military post-9-11 for the educational benefits, you may not have been paying attention. You might have missed the force for the trees a little bit. But now, though, now I would say it's shifting back a little bit more towards what the pre-9-11 military was like.

It was about readiness. It was about preparing for an enemy that you didn't necessarily know what it was going to, be and it will again, I think, if we go through an extended period of time where there's not a kinetic conflict, it may go back to more of a socioeconomic elevator or ladder for people. For the people that... Dude, I don't think anybody wants to join the military now. You can't... All branches... Michael, can you look this up to...

I believe all branches of the military are under their recruiting goals by like 30 to 40%. Yeah, I believe it, because nobody wants to be a firefighter or a cop anymore either. Why do you think that is? because it's a I mean I literally wore a blue collar for 27 years it's work it's a it's a trade it's hard it's challenging yeah but that's all good what'd you find that is all good but what do we have for society now the U.S. military is facing the biggest recruiting crisis in 50 years the Army is facing the most acute recruiting problems the Army misses recruiting goal by 15,000 after-duty shoulders or 25% of its targets, shortfall, forced the army to cut its planned activity and strength from

476 to 466,000. Yeah, basically just says huge recruiting recruiting crisis. I think that, I think that whole theory, it's not even a theory. This is a fact. Hard times make hard men. Which create easy times, which create weak men. Soft men or weak men. Soft men or weak men.

It's a bumper sticker I've seen. Skinny jeans. I've been told skinny jeans are comfortable. I don't know if they're functional. If they got some stretch to them, but I could fit in the front. I mean, you could show like a banana down there. Just show people like, hey, this is what I have if that's what you want. This is the package that I offer.

Michael, could you look that? Skinny jeans? Yeah, he wears a little. No, I'm kidding. He's 100% wears skinny jeans. This shit looks like it's painted on with a roller paint or something. I think we're in the thick of the soft men kind of a situation. And that is why people don't want to be cops, don't want to be firefighters,

don't want to serve in the military, don't want to practice a trade like plumbing or electrical or auto repair or any of the other things where people have to work with their hands to do something other than type on a keyboard and write code. it's just a it's this it's this pendulum swing and you kind of have to ask yourself how far is it going to swing because we know it's going to swing but how far will it go and what is it going to take this stop i often wonder if we're always you know like that phrase is you know it's catchy it looks great on a meme you know soft times create hard men who hard man creates in this never-ending but there's a bell curve to everything i don't care during the time of the time of the

the hardest men and women on the planet. There were some soft-ass bitches. Oh, for sure. And we are speaking in generalities, for sure. So I wonder where we are on that spectrum or if, I mean, how valid that spectrum actually necessarily is. I think one of the biggest things about people not wanting to serve in the military or public service in general is that it's so, it's like a millimeter away from being

vilified at any given time. As is everything now. But those occupations, you know, probably police, let's be honest, here they oftentimes do some things that are well deserving of their scrutiny. Okay, but that's a couple of guys versus a couple of million cops. You're preaching to the choir. However, that does change the social optic of that occupation. I'm not saying that's a correct change of the social optic, but it is something that they're going to have to battle. I wonder and worry about sometimes, like, who would still, like, in this modern era, like, who is it who wants to be a police officer right now?

Second question is, why do you want to? Like, are we doing this for the right reasons? Are you doing this to be a warrior for whatever you consider to be your own type of justice to be? Well, if you think about this, what was the last big event that made people want to be firefighters? And go into the military for that matter. Madeline? For sure. The front page of the paper on the 12th of September was the firefighters raising the flag.

Yeah. I actually cut that out. I still have it in a book somewhere. People looked at that and they thought, I want to raise that flag. I want to do that. I want to leave whatever it is that I'm doing behind and do something worthwhile. And I can see that that's worthwhile because it's on the front page of the newspaper. Unfortunately, I think it takes a big event like that to start that pendulum swinging the other way.

And speaking of that, I think the pull out from Afghanistan swung a lot of military members towards suicide. It may have. Because they're left wondering, what was that all for? What did I just, what did I lose my buddies doing? what did I imprint my mind with doing? What did I get injured doing? So what I'm going to say is probably not going to be popular, and those people need to grow the fuck up.

You know, let's take a look at what your role is in the military, even at the front leading edge of whatever organization you may think is the highest speed. Your job is to execute the foreign policy of the military. You still are going to have to operate inside of what the battle space commander is trying to achieve in whatever country that you may be in. You're going to have to justify, depending on the type of mission that you're going to do, you're going to have to justify it at the appropriate levels.

But most of the time, if not always, you don't get to pick the mission. Like, nobody consulted me about Operation Enduring Freedom or Operation Iraqi Freedom, of which I bounce back and forth for damn near a decade. And yeah, it's easy to sit there and blame whatever station in life that you may be at and whatever you may be dealing with on somebody else. I'm like, what I did, it stood for nothing. It's like, again, I know what I'm saying is not popular, but grow the fuck up. You did the absolute best that you could do, given the conditions that were presented to you that you didn't choose.

We don't get to set policy as people who have boots on the ground. And as much as that irritates people, that is the reality. So instead of looking at the politicians who guess what, make fucking decisions like politicians do. I'm pretty sure they have since the history of politics. And it doesn't seem like they're going to change anything running up to 2024, which is a time period I am not looking forward to. Yeah. It sucks.

Did we lose our friends? Yes, we did. Will the history books potentially judge us on both of those countries? One of them, I think Iraq for sure that we went under their false pretenses. I think the only question at this point is and how up in the decision making process were the false pretenses understood. But guess what? The people who actually invaded that country who were on the first helicopters across, you know, from Saudi Arabia into Iraq or wherever you were staging from, none of them. We did the absolute best that we could with what we had.

You know, in Afghanistan, we provided for almost 20 years an opportunity for women to get reeducated again. You know, it's so easy, you know, young girls for women, it's so easy to look at, oh, the withdrawal and what's happening in Afghanistan now. And like, and I get that. And it frustrates the shit out of me too, but let's not forget what we actually were able to accomplish when we were there. Most people who are struggling with what happened in their military occupation or overseas or what they were asked to do would be far better off taking a fucking look in the mirror and dealing with their problems than pointing the finger at somebody else on a TV screen that they're never going to meet and who will never consult them with the decisions that this country is going to make. Yeah, it's a macro versus a micro view, I think. And, yeah, I mean, you raise a good point.

Two decades wasn't wasted. No. There was plenty of value. Even in, I mean, if you distill it down and people say, if I only made a difference in one person's life, then it was all worth it. It's kind of true. but the military made the difference in tens of thousands of people's lives during that period of time. And that's not a waste.

It's not a waste. I understand how people can arrive at that headspace, but they're losing the forest for the trees. Well, in my personal opinion, which is all it counts for. You want to win. We want to win as a society. as firefighters we want to win and a win

looks like this you put the fire out you walk out of the front door with a chihuahua under your arm like it's a football I'll be honest with you I would have left it in there Frenchie I'd bring the french out chihuahuas are fucking disgusting you

you save a victim of cardiac arrest of drowning a fall while climbing or mountain biking up in the mountains. Those are winds. The losses are when you don't get those things. So kind of in the same light as Afghanistan feels like a loss, this is probably a little more tangible, but first responders suffer losses sometimes on a daily basis when they go on that suicide that is not viable. Or the house is just burning. too hot and everybody gets pulled out and you're spraying water from the outside and the thing

collapses. It's a loss. And you think to yourself, what was all this shit for? What do I do, what do I go to continuing education classes for 72 hours a year to renew my National Registry Paramedic cert for if I can't save a life? You got to change that, though. You can't save every life. But as a society, that's what we want. We want those wins. Yeah, but grow the fuck up.

You can't have 100%. And when you see the picture on the front page of the paper with the guys raising the flag at 9-11 ground zero, that looks like a win. So I think we tend to build these things up and place unrealistic expectations on ourselves. at the onset in an academy. When I started, I had no fucking clue what I was getting into. None.

I thought, I'm going to fight fires. I was doing some wildland stuff, so I knew I was going to fight forest fires. Eventually, I went to medics school. I knew I was going to run a lot of EMS calls and take charge of those things. But I didn't know the other. effect that those things were going to have on me. And I can't help but wonder, actually, I fucking know it in my heart. If I had been told and warned up front, this job is going to have

an effect on you. This job is going to leave an impression on you. That's a fact. And here's how you're going to deal with it. And here are the resources that we as a department will provide you to deal with it. I never would have wound up where I wound up in September of 2019.

Why don't they provide that? Time, money, stigma, culture, stubbornness, city councils, fireboards, you fucking name it. It's either money or it's culture. and I'll break those down.

Money is pretty obvious. Psychiatric care costs money. Are there ways to get that funded? Of course. Especially now that this is kind of a hot button topic. But in the early 90s when I started, no, no such thing. It was suck it up, buttercup, grow a pair, put your feelings in a box. and put them on a shelf.

Oh, but you got to bury them. You might accidentally open it if you put it on a shelf. You got to bury that shit. And you get the box back when you go home. I heard that one the other day. The fire culture is hundreds of years of tradition unimpeded by progress. You can apply that to military too. There's a lot of shit that we still do the same way that we did 100 years ago,

regardless of the progress of technology. And the way the East Coast and West Coast fight fire are a good example of that. The East Coast is very traditional, guys with big long mustaches, you know, just very traditional firefighting. Where does that come from? But also very progressive or very aggressive firefighting too. You know, the mustache, I don't know, because if you look at New York in like the late 1700s, early 1800s, certain races and nationalities

and backgrounds did certain jobs. Who did all the laundry? The Chinese immigrants. Who were the firefighters? Irish, for the most part. So it could go back to that. It could be an Irish thing. Who knows?

It's very iconic across I've seen it east and west coast It is Yeah I think it's it's just Frickin manly Is it? To have a dick broom

I was just thinking it tickles each other When they're eating each other's butthole At the station Yeah And then they Firefighters do some gay shit I mean I'm just saying I don't know

Everybody does Some more than others By the way And you call those people that do some more than others. Firefighters. I have to mention that this large black rifle white chocolate mocha is delicious. Speaking of things that are gay.

Black rifle coffee. Did you as an adult man order a large white mocha? I did. Man, I need to train my staff to be a little bit more inappropriate people across the old point of sale system when they order that. At least it's hot. Yeah, I mean, do whatever. Drink whatever you want to drink.

Do you think that I ask myself this because you'd ask about the transition program out of the military, and it is super short. And I honestly, so I can only speak for the Navy. They spend when I joined eight weeks of an introduction, right? They had this kind of like this mechanism of taking literally everywhere. Plains trays, automobiles. They all showed up in Great Lakes. You get your haircut, right? You're all part of the same team.

You get issued your uniforms. And it's the way I would describe bootcimp, having never worked there, but it seems to me to be. be a mechanism to take people from whatever background they come from and you kind of reorient them. And this is the new vernacular, the new job responsibilities. And boom, you're onto the Navy. It's this transitional from civilian to service. On the other end of that, it's two weeks. And I think it actually might be a week. But let's just say super broad. We'll say two weeks. So it's one fourth of what they implemented on the way in. Are they obligated to give you as much on the way out? or at some point in time as a responsible adult,

do you have to start forward thinking and figure those things out for yourself? I think if you're prepared up front, you're probably going to wind up in a better place at the end. I think so too. But you have the, those resources have to exist. So here's like since last year, this is what I've seen and the people that have reached out to me. large cities with a robust mental health care program, and whether it's an EAP, a psychiatrist, psychologist,

on staff with the department. What's EAP? Peer counsel employee assistance program. It's traditionally administered by a city or a municipality, and it's a number of visits with a psychiatric caregiver that are allotted. They're free. And thanks to HIPAA laws. it is completely private.

But that's a hurdle, and I want to circle back to that. These departments that have all these resources, and you've got a department full of firefighters that don't use them because of a stigma, because of their culture, whatever it is. The resources are there, and they're not getting used. Yeah. So, I mean...

Or on the other end of it, small departments, like volunteer departments, for example, with no resources available at all. Despite the fact that these guys and gals are running calls that are just as traumatic, but here's how it's worse. Volunteers run calls on people they fucking know because they protect the community in which they live. Don't most firefighters kind of do the same? A little bit close proximity? Most of the firefighters in Scottsdale can't afford to live in that city.

Okay, yeah, that makes sense. I guess I was thinking more of like San Diego. And the reality is, yeah, a lot of them travel in the San Diego County, but probably not directly the people that are in that area. See what I mean? Yeah. So, yeah, volunteers have it worse in a lot of cases. So that leaves me as a speaker with two different audiences, generally speaking. Large cities, I'm talking to the crews.

I do my research. I find out what resources are available for these people. And then when I speak, I encourage them to use them and relate my own story. Or the other audience is the town council, the fire board, the people that either do or don't have the money to provide the resources in the first place. So those are kind of the two audiences that exist for me as a speaker. Which do you think would be a more difficult audience? Policymakers. Because of money.

How would you go about pushing them and illustrating to them the importance of providing mental health care resources to their people? It may be tough. And again, real-time thinking my way through this with zero preparation. Just clarifying that before I give any answer that's probably going to be retarded. You're going to have to figure out a way to talk to that. them in their terms. You're going to have to figure out what it is that they value the most and then explain the cost in those terms and what can actually be saved by being proactive. Exactly right. And I think that in keeping without illustrating the cost of losing one of their members to suicide,

that is more expensive than putting an EAP together or putting a psychiatrist or psychologist on staff were making these resources available. What was the, you said there was an issue with the EAPs you wanted to circle back on. Yes. So firefighters and cops are very untrusting people because the kind of people that we deal with on a regular basis, cops more so, but. Are they untrusting of people who aren't firefighters and cops? Yes.

Everybody. That's interesting because, yeah, there are untrustworthy. Dude, just like you. Yeah. Some of the best people I ever worked with were in the fire department. Some of the worst fire department. So, yeah, there exists that dichotomy kind of going on there. But generally speaking, people outside of the circle.

So which comes back to me for a second, I speak to these people and I'm from outside of the circle. But I was still a firefighter. within five minutes of sitting down with another firefighter, it doesn't matter where they work, we will be speaking the same language because we'll either be talking about an American, of France, an E.1 or a Pierce truck that they drive. We're going to be talking about a 2448 shift structure or 4896. You name it. There's that language.

Same with PD, same with military. So I may have come from a different department or different department. different region in the United States, but I speak the same language and I've suffered the same types of situations that every firefighter has. When it comes time to trust a mental health provider who is not a cop or not a firefighter, not a warfighter, there's a barrier that exists with the thought of that person relating to you and understanding, and we talked about this in that first episode. But there's also a trust issue when it comes time to tell that person that you've been thinking about hurting yourself. Because the first thought is, I'm getting

taken off the truck. I'm not going to go on patrol because of what I'm saying. They're going to find me unfit for duty. And that is a, and that's a challenge. That's a barrier that exists. that's created by the people that are that are needing the help in the first place. Yeah, I'm going to go back to a statement that I think people are tired of hearing. You need to go to the fuck up. Yeah. I need, if I'm going to sit down and talk with somebody, I want somebody who has a deep and thorough understanding of mental health and ways to guide people out of that.

I don't need somebody who understands my old job in its totality. I need somebody who understands how the brain works and how trauma can affect. And maybe, maybe if you're thinking about hurting yourself, maybe you should get off the truck for a little bit. Maybe you shouldn't go out on patrol for a little bit until you can get those thoughts. I was just about to say until you can get those thoughts under control, but they may not be in your control at that point in time. Most of the, I mean, like what you're talking about, these hurdles and those,

that leap of faith that you need to take. When talking with somebody who is in the mental health space, most of that is self-imposed. 100%. Well, but it's also culturally imposed because the guys in the fire station, I guarantee you right now there is a bulletin board in a fire station somewhere with a sheet of paper stapled to it with some kind of mental health resources on it. and it maybe just went up today or it's still sitting on the dayroom table because it hasn't been put on the bulletin board yet and guys are sitting around

talking about that sheet of paper fuck that I would never fucking go talk to anybody you guys whatever whatever we run here in this station stays in this fucking station we don't need to talk about it to anybody else not our wives not our girlfriends because we did it we were on the call we understood what happened and why

Fuck everybody else. It doesn't matter. That sounds super healthy. Good job. It makes zero fucking sense. It's 2023. The fact of the matter is that if you are in some kind of a mental health struggle or a mental health crisis and you step away from duty and get help and get treatment, you will come back to duty better than you were before. healthier than you were before, more effective than you were before, and safer than you were before.

Furthermore, you will become part of the solution because all firefighters, all cops, all soldiers look at each other and measure themselves by their mentors or up against their mentors. So if you take somebody that's been a firefighter a long time, they take a month off, get their head straight, come back, and the crew sees that that person is in a better place and they're doing a better job and they're more effective and all that shit I just laid out, now it becomes okay for the younger generation to do that. But there's this rift right now. you've got veteran firefighters and first responders that grew up in my era of the suck it up don't be a pussy put your feelings in a box mentality and you've got the new people who are for the most part aware that mental health is a thing that divide is a problem the solution that that problem is going to solve itself over time because all the old guys are going to retire. We can't wait for that to fucking happen. Because as long as we're still waiting for that, we're still going to lose cops, firefighters, soldiers to suicide.

And I wonder which one of those cohorts, the younger generation or the older generation, is more susceptible to suicide purely by data. My guess would be the older generation. I think so because the cumulative, effect. Yeah. Well, the cumulative effect

a lot of miles. Oftentimes their unwillingness to address the issues that they may be facing quietly alone. Yeah. What was the most effective tool or approach

that you took post your suicide attempt that you found to be the most impactful for you? EMDR and cognitive behavioral therapy. How long did it take? I think I was in a deep enough hole

that it took a lot of work for me to get out of that. And on a timeline, I'd say six months before I started to really feel like, okay, I think I'm feeling okay now. I'm not 100%, but I'm definitely better than I was. I went through inpatient treatment in Maryland for 45 days. And while I was there, I think they were just trying to get me to not feel like killing myself. But that's where I learned what PTSD was and what the signs and symptoms are and how they present. And I also learned the fact that I had been checking almost all of those boxes for years. And when I was diagnosed with those three things, I still didn't believe it. I didn't want to believe it. I thought I was going back to the

truck. I thought I was going back to work. But then as time wore on and I took an introspective an honest look and assessment of myself, I realized I'm not going to be doing anybody any good. I have an amazing amount of experience and I can pass that on through training to people that I'm in charge of teaching. I can mentor new paramedic students and bring them up through from school to street. But to have stayed on duty, to have stayed on the truck and kept running calls was not going to do me any good.

Did your suicide attempt change your thoughts on mortality at all? Because you had been around death quite a bit, or the terminating effect of an accident that led to other people dying. It's not like you weren't unfamiliar with that, but from a personal perspective, did it change it? It definitely made me, realize how precious life is and have a new appreciation for that. But the job, I think, was what

changed my perception of mortality more than anything else. On both ends of it, I brought children into this world through delivery. I put far more people to rest through death. But no bullshit. I was lucky enough and one of the lucky few in this country as a firefighter paramedic to have shown up on a scene where someone was dying. And without any intervention, they were going to be dead. That fact was undeniable, irrefutable. This person's dying. And because I stepped in with my skills

and my crew stepped in with me, and we acted and used our training and our resources and treatment modalities saved lives. That, I think, did a lot to shape my perception of mortality. Yeah. And it's some people would call it a God complex. Maybe. That's a heavy thought to have as a,

let's see I was a medic when I was so I was a firefighter for about three years before I was a medic so when I was a medic I was 23 years old so picture 23 year old Andy doing that stepping in and and and stopping the dying process from happening I kind of specialized on the other side of that equation yeah we had a team too but we weren't saving anything anybody's life. If we showed up, you're about to have a really fucking bad day. So I guess that could be considered a God complex as well, though. Could be, yeah. I just think that it just, it changed how I thought about living and dying. How could it not? Most people don't. I think if you were extremely religious or very devout

in your belief, it could it could strengthen that and forge that belief. For me, just don't touch up against death or even birth really I mean I have three kids see what I mean both yeah but most people unless it's a close

you know family member probably are not there in somebody's last moment it's just not something that people have a lot of exposure and experience to yeah experience with not too I think you

I think you become very comfortable with it And I think that that decision to end your life comes a little easier when you have a different perspective and you have a different thought process on life itself. And my deeper appreciation for the preciousness of life didn't come until after that fact. I was going to say, when you woke up in the hospital, I bet it probably had a jarring change in your thought. that was a confusing time yeah well maybe not like the exact moment that you woke up I was talking in grander terms here sure probably we're still feeling the effects like I'm trying to remember the dosage you gave yourself but let's just say it was very robust

a lot yeah yeah what do you want to do with the rest of your life now now that you have a different perspective on the value of life I want to keep adventuring I want to keep searching. What do you search it for? Clarity. Purpose. I'm looking for gold. Do you know where he is?

Me? Michael won't tell me where any fucking gold is. Absolutely not. Look for a rainbow. It's at the end of that. Careful there. Some people are too stupid to realize that the prismatic effect of light that has occurred long before what I'll steal from Dave Chappelle,

the alphabet group, because I don't even know what the fucking terminology is anymore. isn't owned by one group of people. So be careful with that term. Right. For people who are dumb, they'll get really pissed at that. Yeah. No, I want to, I want to keep doing the things that I enjoy doing and have more time to do now than I ever have before.

You know, I did a 30-mile mountain bike ride through the woods last night or yesterday afternoon. Been fly fishing almost every night. Do you have a garment in-reach? I have a spot. Okay. Same shit different way. I actually have a Gen 3 spot, so it doesn't even link to anything, but I've had it for about 10 years. Okay, good.

So you basically are carrying a rock in your pocket. I'm going to direct you to a sporting goods. And a Glock 22. Yeah, I'll direct you to a sporting goods store where you can upgrade your technology. In this day and age, you need, like, everybody listening who wants to come and enjoy Montana, absolutely come. Don't be an idiot. Like, it's the technology solutions are out there. I have no relationship with any of these brands.

Get yourself a garment inrich many. Link it to your cell phone. Yeah. And you will thank me if something ever happens. And even, I mean, mine, that spot, Gen 3 is, is a means for me to call for rescue. But the odds of me calling as a third party for somebody else that I happen upon are much greater than needing it myself. Everybody says that till they go over the bars. True.

You take both of your shoulder blades and just powder them. Yeah, I've been kayaking. I've been... Tell me about the event. When you first came back up into the valley, we bumped into each other at the coffee shop. You are getting ready to do an event. It was an overlanding event, correct?

Yeah, I went out with a Two Wolf Foundation. Two Wolf Foundation. Okay. And they're available at Twowolf.org. Spell at the number two, TWO. Yeah, Brian's doing some pretty interesting work with land stewardship with veterans. And to some extent, first responders coming up. But he's linked up with Tread Lightly.

And they were actually put together by the Forest Service, but they're linked with public lands. And I went out with those guys for a week up in the Kutonai National Forest. And we built about 500 feet of sports. rail wooden fence to protect a sensitive archaeological site from OHV abuse. We built a big like six foot by five foot heavy timber trailhead sign for map and use regulations. So, and that was their second warrior stewardship team that went out.

The first one did trail maintenance on the Arizona Trail down in the four people. wilderness in Arizona. So that is the goal. They are linking veterans and first responders who have transitioned in their out to some kind of teamwork, some kind of a group, and some kind of a purpose. And it's a pretty special thing when they when they all come together as one because you I mean the first project we did was that sign and we've got some hand tools, some heavy a plan and you kind of go okay who's good at math where's Glover who can yeah who is you're going to ask a bunch of veterans who's good at math like ha ha ha right um can I have the

hammer who's got who's got construction experience who can or who can just dig a hole with a post hole digger yeah that I can do and then you come together yeah do you guys stay out there yeah it's a vehicle based so you're on a mission you're basically on a mission you're describe. But that's awesome because that can bring people. It's what I enjoyed about the very short jumping expedition we did in January. Like, sorry. It's just like it doesn't.

The six day one? Yeah. Six days, six hours and however many minutes. The gravity aspect of it, like falling out of an airplane feels exactly the same other than temperature wise. Yeah, it was the really was. The cool part was figuring shit out in real time, contingency planning, and looking at all the stuff leading up to it, the logistics and figuring shit out on the fly.

And honestly, laughing with friends about how much stuff sucked along the way, being stuffed in an economy seat for a 12-hour flight and looking over and seeing that your buddy has it worse than you and just dying laughing because of it, because fuck that guy. And I say that because I love him. Yeah, suffering brings people together. It really does. Well, if you let it, I mean, you have to be open to that. Which kind of brings us back to some societal stuff.

There are a lot of people in society that don't know how to suffer. Or they consider suffering their Black Rifle Coffee Company, hot drink being cold now because it's that for too long. And that's fucking suffering for them. Depending on how you live your life, I guess that could be. doesn't that matter of perspective. Yeah. It could be the worst thing that they encounter in their day.

I forget what it's called for kids. I think it's dark night of the soul. And so the dark night of the soul is like the worst thing that's ever happened to you up into that point in your life. And like when you're four and you stub your toe,

that's your dark night of the soul. Yeah. And then later on when you're 15 and you wreck your mom's car when you were not supposed to be driving it in the first place, that's your dark night of the soul. However, I mean,

it seems to me like in the modern era finding difficult things to do, challenging yourself, intentionally looking for resilience is almost, it's almost vilified. Like if you do that, what are you trying to say that you're tougher than me? What are you trying to say that, like, you can do things that I can't? People say, oh, you're just an adrenaline junkie. Why did you, why did you kayak six miles in the rain by yourself to the other end of the lake?

without a garment. I told you, I have a spot. God dang it's Gen 3. You said it was 10 years old. I feel like they're on Gen 10 right now. Probably. Michael, are you over there looking up

Dark Night of the Soul? Yes, and then I looked at the time. I heard you type it. Had you ever heard that, Dark Night of the Soul? Yeah, Leah told me about it. It's pretty funny. That's awesome. The worst thing that's ever happened to in your life up to that point.

You got to find things. You've got to find things that challenge you. And it doesn't have to be climbing a 15,000 foot peak. For most people, it shouldn't be. You've got to find things that you're afraid of doing. You've got to find things that you're not sure you're going to be able to finish. Whether that's the stuff I do or putting a little more weight on the straight bar and wondering, I wonder if I can get five out of this.

It doesn't matter what the fuck it is. we have to find something to challenge ourselves. In mental health, as intangible as it is, can be one of those things. Yeah, I think most people are provided with a list right out of the box if they wanted to could pursue in their development of resilience. All you need is a piece of paper and a pen. Yeah. Like still to this day, I think the number one fear

among adults. What do you think it is? Public speaking. Yeah. Go give a speech. Yeah. Like you could write down the things that you really don't want to do. I think you'll be a more resilient person if you look at that as, hey, this is an opportunity for me to grow, as opposed this is an opportunity for me to avoid these things. That's my opinion. Yeah. I just think that there's so much more to be gained.

And that's one of the things that I love about it is that that's, that's, that's, that is still scary for me. Public speaking? Yeah. But there's a thing, there's a difference between, there's a difference between having fear and being paralyzed by fear. Like if I feel fear, there, there isn't a lot I'm afraid of. But when I start to feel fear, I acknowledge it.

Take a look around, get more situationally aware to make sure that, you know, I'm keeping myself safe, whatever I'm concerned about, and then fucking press on. What is it about public speaking that scares you? Imposter syndrome. Up there representing something that you don't feel qualified to represent? Tell me how that fucking makes sense after the mental health history that I have. And the treatment that I've been through. I have no right to feel that.

It isn't. It's good you do, though. Imagine, because we've all seen the other side of that. The individual... Which comes off as cocky and... Well, the individual that doesn't have a lot. Maybe they have far less training. Maybe they have far less experience in the things that you're talking about, but they

are up there portraying themselves as an expert. And the things that they are saying are talking about, they can't stand the test of scrutiny. So they don't want to take questions. I think it's... I would rather have imposter sin, which for clarity, I have in every aspect of my life. I don't feel qualified to sit here and host a podcast. podcast, trained Jiu-Jitsu with Michael earlier today. I most days feel like an idiot.

Like, how did I not know that? How have I not figured this out yet? In every aspect of what I do, I feel like there's that level of imposter syndrome. Like, am I actually good enough to talk about this? Am I actually good enough to do this? Do you think that comes from humility? I think it comes more from just awareness of how much is actually possible. and my own recognition of how far I am away from that.

I was very fortunate in my life, specifically narrowing it back down to my time in the military. I worked with people who were able to do shit that I can't to this day figure out how they did it. Yeah. Like, let me see your rifle. Is your rifle special? How the fuck are you, let me see your pistol too.

And I'm like, look, I'm like, okay, these are identical. like, okay, you got two feet, you got two hands, our eyesight's exactly the same. We're wearing the same shit. Like, I don't know. And that was from every aspect of what we did. Maybe it was technical knowledge in rope rescue stuff because there was a period of time where, you know,

kembia on a ship, we had to do hall systems and all this stuff. And I was like the secondary or tertiary guy in that team. And I'm watching the person who's in charge. I'm like, how do you know how to do all this shit? But yeah, I was on the, you know, I was on the rope recovery team, high angle team. Kind of, like I was physically there, but don't ask me for anything. I was always, and I still, jiu-jitsu is another good example.

You can have a great role with somebody, and then you can go roll with somebody else, and you'll sit there and scratch your head and go, what the fuck just happened? Are we doing the same thing? I feel like we were in the same class. We're wearing the same uniform. Your belt is not that much of a different color than mine. I feel like I am drowning on dry land. And I think exposure to that, it helps, like, I think imposter syndrome is a good thing.

I don't think somebody should be paralyzed. I do not believe somebody should be paralyzed by imposter syndrome. The recognition of what is possible and how far away you are from that, I think, is a very positive thing. That feeling exists when I start. That feeling is completely gone after I've had a 30 or 45 minute or hour. plus Q&A session with a group and have held intelligent conversation and presented good alternatives to people. Once I've done that, there's no question in my mind that I'm in the right place doing the right thing. I hope the imposter syndrome never leaves you, though. I'm telling you right now it's a good thing.

I don't think it will. I really don't. But it's interesting to, it's interesting. It's interesting. to look at that and wonder what causes it and if it's a good thing. And I agree. I think it's a good thing. I think it keeps you in check, but it also informs you in that it's telling you that you are challenging yourself. It's you asking yourself, am I really a public speaker? Am I really a skilled, retired firefighter rescue tech? kayak or mountain bike or rock clunk what of the fuck is this actually happening like is this real like that that grounding i think

is related in your 27 years did you ever arrive at a place where you like you know what i know it all not even close see and that's what would you have said and and let's say you were having a and here's why but hold on let's say you were having a conversation with another firefighter not that you hung out with them socially

But the guy was like, you know what, Rick? I fucking got this job. There's actually nothing about this job that I don't know how to do and know how to do well. I wouldn't want to work with that person. No way. So if you ever arrive at a place. That person is dangerous. Exactly.

Because they don't have imposter syndrome. They have the opposite of imposter syndrome, which I can't think of what that would actually be right now. But I... An overinflated ego? An overinflated ego. People used to ask me about wingsuit base jumping. Are you scared when you put your toes over the edge of a cliff and you're getting ready to jump? I'm like, I don't know.

Let's run the numbers on this. I'm wearing a nylon suit. I cannot fly. I can glide at best and gain a couple hundred feet in altitude. I am zipping up this contraction that is slightly more mobile than a straight jacket with a plastic helmet on, which for clarity is for you to put your fucking GoPro on, not to protect your head or to keep your face a little bit. you know, in one piece for, maybe you look better at the closed casket, by the way, but like, maybe you would look better if some psycho wanted to do an open casket funeral. My resting heart, like, you hear your heartbeat pounding in your chest.

Why? Because you know what you're doing is dangerous. And I always told people, and I stand to this on almost everything that I do, especially when there's a level of risk like that. If I ever get to a place and I put my toes over the edge in an environment like that, and I don't have that reaction, I will turn around and walk down because I am not fucking paying attention to what's going on. Yeah. That place of, I got this, is super dangerous.

Yeah, it is. And there were periods where I was climbing out of the right door of a helicopter with the winch cable attached. And I was comfortable enough that I think everybody's seen the YouTube video of the Phoenix Fire, Helo Rescue where the Bauman Beck spins like crazy. Michael? Is this like a guy who's going to, like, G-Force going out of control? This was it.

Or is it Phoenix, you said? Yeah, Phoenix. This was, I think this was a lady that was having a stroke. Well, I'm sure that definitely helped. The wrong patient to spin. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But Michael, I think for the viewers and those who haven't seen this, let's do them a solid.

So we can share this experience together. Throw that in. For favor. Yeah. As a rescuer when you're getting lowered out of the helicopter in your harness, that same thing can happen. And I got to a point where I was comfortable enough that I could fly. Yeah. And stay straight.

Yeah. Oh, God. Okay. So you want me to narrate? Yeah. Michael, make sure that thing is full screen for people. Yeah. So this one is alive for clear.

Can you pause it right there? Uh, yeah. Go back a little bit. Okay, so the red thing is called a Bauman bag, and it's like a big burrito with a person in it. The rescuer on the ground is about to let go of the Bauman bag and take a hold of something called the trail line, and that's a rope that's attached to the foot end of the Bauman bag. Did both of those people who are on the ground come out of the helicopter? The one on the left probably did, but not guaranteed.

Is there a difference in the color of helmets? Do those mean something? Yes, the yellow helmets are air rescue texts. Okay. So that tagline is meant to prevent what's about to happen from happening. Don't laugh, Michael. Imagine if that was you. But here's the key.

If that was you, I would fucking piss myself laughing, Michael. Here's the key. The rescuer with a tagline cannot be directly underneath the helicopter. That makes a lot of sense, actually. You've got to be off to the side. Usually, Firebird will put angle in the trail line for the rescuer. They'll crab to their left and put angle in that trail line. I had rescues where, you know, I was the one on the ground with the trail line in my hand,

and that Bowman bag was going straight up, and the helicopter was not moving to the side. That's when I took off and walked out about 40, 50 feet. You created the angle you needed. And I put the angle in it. So hit it. Right underneath the Balman bag still. And now, here we go. It starts to spin.

And now once it starts, there is no stopping it. Now, the only thing, and here the crew chief is lowering the load to try and get it to stop. The only thing that is going to stop. Oh my God. The only thing that can stop this is forward flight. That helicopter needs to just, they need to start forward flight immediately. Unfortunately, the hoist isn't necessarily rated for an external load with forward flight. It is actually reducing it the faster they go forward.

Yeah, because you get wind flowing over it and it slows it down and eventually stops it. And there you go. It's at least slowed down. Were that woman's eyes bloodshot when they put her into the back of the ambulance here? I don't know. But that was unfortunately a world-renowned. And that's a helicopter. Oh, my God.

That's actually that's 5 or 10. That's the helicopter that I flew in a lot. So, yeah, that's a well-known example of that phenomenon. Would it be possible with the connections that you have for us to recreate this with Michael in the basket as a training video? So there would be value to the community. We could do that here in the Flathead Valley with two bear. Yeah. Are you in?

No. Yes, you are. Why would we not just use a dummy is my question? Because you're going to be mind up. you're going to have a microphone on you and I want you to be like I'm still awake I'm still awake I want to have you narrate

we'll have Nelson we'll have Nelson what could possibly go wrong I don't see any downsides to this all right so you're in yeah sure it'll be another merit badge for your sash You don't want to do it

you don't know I don't I really don't Well that makes it perfect because if you don't want to do it then we absolutely must I got to a point where I could step out of the door of a helicopter and be completely calm. Yeah. Now.

That's reps, though, too. But I wasn't saying to myself, no fucking problem, I got this. I was thinking, okay, keep from spinning, fly your body as you get lowered through the rotor wash. And then I was thinking about the report that I was going to give when I made patient contact, the resources that I was going to request, the EVAC plan that I was going to put. together. There are a million things going on. It's literally a fucking chess game. It's so fun. I fucking miss it so much. But it brought with it a cost. Yeah. Yeah, as it does. And I think that's... But that's the thing. How do you make that transition either on a daily basis, every shift going home to the family or retiring and stepping away from it forever.

My adventure sports are fulfilling a need for that planning thing. You know, when I decide, all right, I'm going to do this hike. What's the weather like? What's the elevation like? How long am I going to be out? What kind of food and nutrition do I need? What are my work? water sources, you know, you're kind of thinking tactically. And that translates well to these things. But it's just not the same. There's no way to fill that void in your life. So the key...

I think that's where it starts. I think you have to accept the fact that you can't. You do. You have to realize that and come to peace with it somehow. That latter part is what I think people struggle with. How did you struggle with it? when you came out as a gay man well as coming out of the military as a gay man

I exited during the don't ask don't tell time period so it was a seamless transition you told yeah it's okay fuck people live your life however you want to right seriously when you when you got out did you struggle with the transition

yeah you know you go from a job where there's times where you can make the news on what you're involved with and you go to a place where now your only interaction with that is to turn the TV on. Like you cannot do anything. And, you know, many communities, like the ones that we both came from, are very good while you are in, selling you a bag of what I call bullshit about how the team can't survive if you leave. How the team is, how could you talk?

The team needs you. And what the reality of what they're saying is, and I think that they know. it even in the moment, is that what the team needs is a body. And when you leave, they'll fill it with another one. But what that can do is rob you of a little bit of heads up time, looking around, realizing like, man, even if I do this for as long as physically possible, there's an expiration date. So I'm going to constantly remind myself, this is what I do. isn't who I am.

And I'll think at least a little bit about the future. That was one of the mistakes I made getting out is I didn't. I remember the day that I got out. I had my DD-214 in my hand. I was driving out of North Island in Coronado thinking, man, I should have put as much energy and effort into thinking about what I was going to do next, as opposed to what I wanted to do when I was super young, which I don't think is uncommon at all. But it was tough for me to detach from that role.

but what I had was economic responsibilities. And so I just made myself very busy. And that probably was to the detriment of the relationship with my ex-wife. And of course I could say, well, I have to do this because we need X. And I have to do that because I need Y. And that wasn't always, you know, it was probably a blend of everything. but the reality probably was is that I was

not self-sabotaging. I was keeping myself as busy as possible so I didn't have to unpack that and I didn't have to deal with it. And for a while I did... But eventually it showed up because the shit just doesn't go away, right?

Eventually it showed up but for me, like I'm not bothered by the things that I was asked to do in the military and there are some people that are and I have no judgment of anybody on whatever spectrum you fall out on that.

Far-end extreme or anything in between. It doesn't keep me up at night. My biggest regret is probably not killing more of those motherfuckers and taking the opportunities that presented itself that I didn't later in my career because I wanted to give people a second chance. It's just like, fuck, please do the right thing because I don't want to kill you. But I'm okay with that. Like I'm not haunted by what I used to do.

I have healthy relationships with the people that are in my life. But having said that, it has probably changed who I am. I just, even when I was in, though, made a constant effort to try to always remember it's what I did, not who I was. And I think that helped me quite a bit. And at some point in time, and I don't remember exactly when it happened, in conversations that I have with myself, It's like, you know what?

It's time to put this down and figure out who you want to be. Like very common for people in the world that I came from to go into law enforcement or contracting, which to me is a different chapter of the same book. It's very close. Same shit, a different way. And I don't want to do that. So when I made the decision to move on and do something else, that's what I did. I want to take the experiences that I have and be able to have a meaningful impact or difference in people's life with them.

But I don't want it to be all that I've ever been. who the only thing that I can become. And honestly, the answer to the question of how I, you know, how it impacted me, it would probably be better asked to people other than me. Because I don't, you know. Yeah, that's fair. That's a good point. To get a more objective outside perspective.

Yeah. And who knew you on either end of the, of duty. Yeah. Yeah. But it took time. I used to care a lot about what was going on in the community. And now it's like I'm grateful that I that I serve my time there, but there's nothing that I can do to impact it.

Other than to answer people honestly who will reach out to me and say, hey, this is what I want to do for living. What would you recommend? How would you prepare? Like I can help in that way. But like, I'm out. The SEAL teams have evolved and moved so far beyond what I was ever able to do or was ever going to be able to do.

And it's like, bon voyage. Like, best of luck to you, but I just want to be a different person. Yeah. I think for me the challenge and the thing that I'm working my way truly into now is that acceptance that that was what I did and not who I was. And even when I was in, I didn't wear fire shirts and hats and I have stickers all over my truck and all that stuff. That's fine. I just didn't advertise and I didn't want to be reminded of it when I was off duty. I wanted to just distance myself from that.

And that in itself was a symptom of PTSD. I was trying to distance myself from sight, sound, smells that reminded me of trauma and all that shit. But now when I go to a fire station and I see the guys and I see the gear and I see the truck, I still feel like I could probably get on that truck and run calls right now. You 100% could. You know. It's not your job anymore. Right.

And you can have a greater impact with what you are talking about now than you can't. Not that you wouldn't have a localized impact on a call. You can have a much broader impact community-wise speaking openly about your experiences. Yeah, and I'm finding that to definitely be true. Although I'm still wrestling a little bit with the fact that I'm not doing this back home where I came from. But at the same time, I feel empathy for those people in that I think that what I did in 2019 struck just a little too close to home because I knew all those people. And that affected them. And to some extent, I'm sure some of them still think, why the fuck didn't he call me?

Yeah. It's tough to be a profit in your own land, though. That's a question I fucking ask. Why didn't I call it? It's tough to be a profit in your own land. That's good shit right there. Well, we used to contract out the leading experts in every phase of the military operations that we trained for. For two reasons, I would say.

Technical competence and people would pay more attention. Yeah. And when we did paramedic continuing education, when Joe or Dave or the guys that you just run calls with and played practical jokes on are now teaching you advanced cardiac life support, do you think you're going to take it seriously? No. Not nearly as seriously as the contracting you bring in. Right.

Somebody fresh set of eyes and ears. And then once you get over the, who the fuck is this guy thing and realize, oh, they have some credibility or some experience or, oh, they're a good instructor. then yeah, you learn more. And that's what I'm finding. I'm finding talking to strangers, but talking with them in that same language that we share, that special bond of fire service familiarity, is pretty fucking cool.

It'll have a more localized impact, I think, even in the Scottsdale area, because one, good information travels fast, and two, even in my limited understanding of the fire service, people move around. So you might end up talking with somebody somewhere that ends up making a lateral transfer or a large family move for whatever reason. And the message that you delivered is still making its way there. You may just never hear about it. Yeah. I wrote a book.

And it was still in progress last year when we talked. doing this interview last year was a big factor in me getting off my ass and writing the most difficult chapter that I was kind of stalled on. Was it, were you talking about you wanted to be a cop? Yeah, I, my life is a firefighter. I tucked my ship between my legs and I had a, you know, like a costume police hat that I wore. I just figured you wore a police officer leotard underneath the fire service. outfit like Superman, but that's where you got your real powers from. Body paint.

That's next level. Yeah. Yeah. I really wanted to be a cop. No. That chapter was about calling myself. And once I wrote that, once I suffered through that, because when you're writing on an autobiographical book and you've suffered trauma and you're talking about the traumatic

events in your life, you're re-experiencing. And in a way, it's journaling on steroids. but it was cathartic in a lot of ways and helpful and therapeutic. When I finished the book, that was when I really thought, okay, now what? What are you going to do with this? You've written this book. That's when I decided that I want to eliminate that stigma of coming forward and asking for help with mental health issues. I want to normalize.

conversations about mental health around a day room table on a fire station that looks just like this table or in a police station. And unfortunately, cops, they show up, they get in their cruiser, and they're alone all day unless they go on a call with other cops. So they don't have that necessarily have that brotherhood or that interaction. So that's a big struggle for them. I just want it to be normal to have an uncomfortable conversation that in the end will bring you more comfort than you could ever imagine. What's the book called?

It's called Flame and Fortune How the Fire Service Almost Killed Me. I like it. When I was fighting wildland fire, which is landscaping with a camping trip thrown in. I'm sitting there during a break and I had a Sharpie in my in my I-A-pack. I took my helmet off and I wrote on the underside of the brim.

I drew wings and I wrote flame and fortune. And I was on a federal fire which paid more than other fires. And I was making more money. It was a pittance, but it was more money that I had made doing anything else at that point. life. And it's like flame and fortune, baby. There are always going to be fires. They're always going to go out. And as long as I'm on them, I'm going to make money. So that was where that title came from. But how the fire service almost killed me for obvious reasons. It's available anywhere you can get a book. Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple. I need to record the audio book. I want that book in the hands of

as many people as I can get it into. Yeah. But that's not what's important to me. What's important is using that as a vehicle to support my public speaking appearances. Because, yes, people can read that book and see that it's a story of hope and gain a lot from it.

But what I really want to do is stand in front of a group of 1,000 people with a microphone in my hand. that's the impact that I want to have. I suspect you're going to get there. I'm trying. I got an email today, literally this morning, sitting in the coffee shop, drinking my morning coffee from... Which was hot or iced?

I drink iced coffee. Okay. For velocity of guzzling it. Cold brew? Yes. One, it has more caffeine. Yeah. Two, I can get it down my throat faster.

Got it. firefighter in Atlanta reached out about inquiring whether or not I can come speak about resiliency and described a little bit. I could show you the email some of the terms I didn't quite understand, but Lily talking about firefighters getting in fistfights with other firefighters that were trying to take them to get the care that they needed and issues going on in that. I mean, that's a huge area, obviously. The need for it is not decreasing, I guess, is the point that I'm getting to.

So I suspect that you'll have a long road ahead of you to make that impact that you want to. People feel like they're alone. I mean, that's one of the biggest barriers. Probably the biggest barrier is the culture in the fire service and in law enforcement. That, you know, we're the ones that help people. We come and solve the problems. Yeah, but then he goes back to that Cape analogy, like that therapist brought up to you. Spoiler alert, the capes and Superman's not real.

You're just a person at the end of the day. Some people have bizarre occupations that have really bizarre occupational requirements, and it can have an impact on you as a person. Do not pretend like you're impervious or bulletproof because you are not. Yeah, and going, stepping on a fire truck or getting in a cruiser or on motorcycle or whatever your mode of service is and thinking that you're superhuman is fucked up and dangerous. Yeah, super dangerous. I would not want to be on it.

You just cannot do that. We're real people. We have real problems. As you said, grow the fuck up. Man or woman the fuck up. Pull your pants up. It's 2023. It's okay to have a mental health issue.

It's okay to doubt yourself. it's okay to be unsure of what your career path is going to take when you go for help. It's not okay to decide to end your life based on whatever it is in your life that you perceive as the worst day. I agree. Where can people find you so that you can come and speak to people? in the language and vernacular in terms that they understand. So it'll have an impact. RB603.net.

It's the website. Unbelievable. So simple. Don't forget the dot net. Dot net. I'm trying to up my Instagram game a little bit. I'm not a big source of media. I try to do a daily post with some kind of a motivational thing

or share some of the adventures that I'm on, and that's Rick Booker 603. on Instagram. Other than that, yeah, send an email, reach out to me. You can get it through the website, my contact.

And I'm trying to break the country down into regions and do as much as I can in a region while I'm there. Makes sense. Instead of flying back and forth and that. So I travel full time. I'm in a close. Class A motor coach, and I pull a flatbed trailer behind it with my SUV and my kayak and my mountain bike and all my adventure stuff.

And I try to make a difference wherever I am, and I try to stay true to myself and have some good adventure and keep myself grounded as much as possible so that I can have the best impact and kind of be the best of me when I show up to speak. I think that's all you can do. What do you want to close it out with? Take her away. I would like to say, thank you so much for having me again. The first time I appeared on this, it made a difference,

and it set me on a certain trajectory. And if you're listening to or watching this episode and you got something out of it, please share it with people. Blow this thing up. make it viral get it in the hands of the people who may not even realize that they need to hear this message

because that makes a difference and that starts the ball rolling when you don't feel alone it makes it easier to take a really good look at yourself and be okay with who you are I like it awesome man thank you for taking the time

and let's get you back out and join Montana awesome summer should last for at least three more days, so you might as well so good. I have jackets. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks, brother.