Cleared Hot - Powered By BRCC - Guardians of the Wild - With John Nores

Episode Date: September 25, 2023

John made an incredible journey from a small-town boy with a passion for nature to a celebrated warden with the California Department of Fish and Wildlife. He was a founding member of California's Marijuana Enforcement Team (MET), a unit developed to combat environmentally destructive criminal operations. With a career spanning three decades, John shares his eclectic experiences, including the challenges and triumphs of leading high-risk operations, training special operation personnel, and being at the forefront of innovative sniper training programs. John opens up about his rendezvous with leadership and valor, earning him the Governor's Medal of Valor in 2007, and his notable contribution in dignitary protection details during the Obama administration. John is also an accomplished musician, a relentless endurance athlete, a fervent hunter, and an avid outdoorsman. From soloing the Baja 500 race "Ironman" style to indulging in photography and video production, John is definitely living life to the fullest. Visit John's Website: http://www.johnnores.com/   The Speed of War Comic Series: https://www.thespeedofwar.com/ Sign up for the new G14 newsletter here: https://www.clearedhotpodcast.com/exclusive Check out the newest Cleared Hot Gear here: https://shop.clearedhotpodcast.com/  

What's going on, everybody? Welcome back. You know the deal. Before we get into today's guests in the episode, we're going to talk about the sponsor, which, wait for it, you're right. It's Black Rifle Coffee. If you go to Black RifleCoffy.com, the advice that I have said I'm going to give and what I'm going to continue to give is start thinking about the holidays. I think we're 13 weeks away from Christmas. So, head on over to black riflecoffee.com. I have it right in front of me. First thing I'm seeing is Gothic Serpent, which I assume is going to be an ECS blend, Evans Coffee, Coffee, Subpoff. subscription. You're going to want to, a Gothic Serpent, I believe was the name of the operation in Mogadishu. It's probably going to be a banger blend of coffee. The next thing on the rotating banner, you can join the coffee club, and they have coffee clubs for ECS. They have coffee clubs for whatever blends you want on whatever rotation that you want them to be on at whatever place you want. They have merchandise, subscriptions, all sorts of things. I'm looking at a 15% off coffee bundle. They get everything you could possibly want. And then below, you can dive in for as long or as little as you want to. T-shirts, mugs, hats. I've seen belts on here. I've seen

fanny packs on here. I've seen ways to make coffee. Bundles, you name it. If you're into coffee, which they are, then you know where to go for your coffee needs. Blackwiflecoffee.com. My guest today is John Norris. I just had John on change agents. And we were talking about specifically his time as a game warden in California. And if you're anything like me, you hear the term game warden. What you don't think of is narcotics enforcement. But he ended up being one of the founding members of their marijuana enforcement task force. And the stories from it are wild.

There's obviously the import and sale of marijuana before it became state legal, still federally illegal in California. The complications that still go on with that. There's the growing aspect of it. The workers there. the weapons involved in that, but there's also the massive destruction of the environment and ecosystem, which is exactly where the game wardens tie in because that's the habitat for the animals that they are out there preserving and protecting.

So let's get into this. Episode, I think it's 305 with John Norris. Enjoy it. Close now. It's a learning experience today. I learned from the best. If you had to, Michael, speaking of glory holes, let's explore this. All right, lay on me.

Gun to your head. Which side of the glory hole would you be on? Gun to your head. I would have to say the receiving end. Really? Yeah. Well, okay, no, receiving as in I am getting. No, that's what receiving.

Yeah. Yeah. Not as an I'm receiving a dick in my mouth. Okay. If you had to gun to your head, would you rather suck one dick ten times or ten dicks once? I'd say one dick ten times because less risk of any type of something spreading to my mouth and getting throat cancer. Throat cancer?

Yeah. Okay. It's a real thing. That happens to people who... There's some logic to that. Yeah. I heard a really good one recently. Gone to your head.

Would you rather have sex with a male or a male to female transgender person? So you mean, would you rather have sex with a dude or would you rather have sex with a dude? Right, but the other dude has his dick cut off. And there's like some sort of hole down there. Does neither qualify? Yeah, is there option C? No. I had to answer both of your question.

Would you answer that one first? Let me judge you. A friend asked me that and I said the transgender person. Really? Because then you don't have to deal with a penis. Okay. Thinking ahead again. Yeah.

Yeah. Less equipment to work around. Yeah, precisely. Yeah. Okay. How was it being a cop for 20 years, John? I'm with you, Andy. I'm taking that C answer, none of the above.

Come on, in every multiple choice there's none of the above. Yeah, usually. But not this one. I'll punk on that one. The one dick ten times, it signals a level of commitment on Michael's part that I hope that the listeners and viewers don't miss. Because, one, at the end of that, you're definitely powerfully gag. which is fine. I've known that about you for a long time.

You live your life. I support you. You know, I support you and love you for who you are. Thank you. I really appreciate that. But that's commitment. Yeah,

I'm, you know, I'm an all or nothing kind of guy. That is true. That is true. I've noticed that about you. So, Jesus.

Anyways, should we start the podcast? I think we already have. I don't know how the YouTube algorithm is going to treat that opening segment we just did. Definitely stirred it up, though. I think,

and I also think we've, jumping in. We opened with, questions that people can think deeply about. Yeah, very deep questions. Right. They don't have necessarily right or wrong answers. And that would be good to ask others like Thanksgiving dinner.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Well, like, why have a boring Thanksgiving dinner when you can throw something like that out? Hey, Uncle Joe, can you pass the potatoes? Also heard an interesting question. I'd like to go around all 10 of us. I'll start with you and we'll go to either shooters, right, or shooters left, your call, and all of us are going to answer. Yeah.

Man. All right. What do you've been up to since the last time we talked? Oh, man, brother. It's been close to three years. I think it's darn, yeah. Maybe, yeah, two and a half three years. It's been nonstop.

You know, I think I had retired operationally. That was the end of 2018, and I saw you not long after the first edition of Hidmore came out. So late 2019, or early. 2020 sometime in there. I think it was early 2020. It was early 2020. That makes sense. Yeah. Sometime late winter, spring. Yep. And it's just been escalating since. You know, things haven't gotten better on the whole

Hidden War front. Like we just talked about on change agents. Thank you, by the way, for coming on that. It's so awesome. Well, it's been great because, one, we got to reconnect, which got us talking about you coming back on here, which is awesome. Yeah. But I actually really have been enjoying that. The ability to pick

kind of like a key topic and really dive in on an expert for an hour. I like the boundary of the hour or two on that particular podcast and working with Ironclad has been awesome. It's fantastic. They handle all the back end. Yeah, they do. I get to sit down and be like, so tell me about what you're passionate about. Yeah. And the production is great. Those guys are passionate. You know, working on them with Jack's podcast when I did his show and vice versa. It was

they're fantastic to work with and thank you for having me on for that topic. Because people are resonating with it. The views are crazy. Jessica from Ironclads has been hitting me up every day. Thanks for the collaboration. This is well received, you know, which is good. It means people are starting to pay attention more and more because it does. I still feel we have a hidden more out there. You know, there's all these issues that people kind of dance around because we got so much shit to deal with right now. It's true. So that was on a recent episode of change agents. Michael, can you look up John Norris when he was on cleared out the first time just so we can give people

that episode so they can go back and find that one and that way we can have a standalone episode. I like it. Which will help with that, though. Just give me the wavetops of your career and then we can just dive back in and catch up. Yeah, I was a game order in California. grew up right over the hill from you. You were in Santa Cruz. I was in Santa Clara County going back and forth, playing in the water and that kind of deal. From 92 up till the end of 2018,

so just under 30 years. Had a fantastic career. It was absolutely everything I, you know, could have dreamed of and more. What I didn't anticipate was the special operation shift to fight these drug cartels on the illegal tainted cannabis on public lands, which is now morphed into a lot of private land stuff,

got to form up the first tactical unit for agency dedicated to that, called the Marijuana Enforcement Team. We developed the Delta sniper team. A lot of us that had already been snipers in other capacities came together for that. So kind of a dream team. And the last six years were by far as intensive, not more intense than any other part of my career. So I think going out that way was a real blessing, Andy, and a real treat because the battle rhythm and the pace was crazy. You know, we were working 100, 120 hour weeks and sometimes no days off, you know, through the months during growth season.

And it was great. We were making a dent, you know, and we had an outreach element where we could discuss it. You know, we would do documentaries. We would do investigative new pieces. That's sort of tailored down now, but we got the word out there. We got the word out there. And then when I retired, had the book deal with recoil, Gun Digest, which is my publishing brand. They're combined in the Caribouza bookside, and we did the first edition of Hidden War.

I think about four or five months after I retired, that dropped April at the NRA annual. And Oliver North really wanted to get it out there because he had reviewed it. and he was really moved by it. You know, as you know, he's quite the conservationist. He hunts, you know, his world in the military, what he's done overseas, and he was outraged by what he was reading.

So really lucky to have him on board. And it's just been a steady, you know, uphill climb now, of continuing to send the message, continuing to train on it, work with teams on the border, work with teams in other states, continue to work in California a lot. You know, it still, you know,

still has some home vibe down there because there's a lot of resource and there's a lot of really good people in Cali. I got cattle ranchers. I got parks and remote, pristine areas that are still being impacted by all these areas. And now it's kind of leaving it to the operators that are doing it and what the state's doing with it enforcement-wise. But I get to speak freely and educate on it on forums like this.

So awesome to be here again and talk with you. And it's just been really good the last three years, nonstop, actually. It's wild that everything you were talking about was nested under the Game Warden occupation as well. The first time we sat down, I was shocked at the things that you were doing because one of had very limited interactions with game wardens in the wild per se. Right. And most people are like, oh, God, watch out for the game ward. I'm not doing anything illegal. I don't give a shit.

Yeah. We were perceived as the boogey men, you know, or the boogie women until you actually meet us and you're doing the right thing. Then we're buddies. The only time I've ever had an interaction actually with the warden. And I'm almost positive it was a ward. We were hunting in, out by white sulfur. Okay. And I had dropped a bowl.

We quartered it, hung it, and we thought as we went back the next day, carcass was totally buried. And this isn't a non-grisly area. So we thought we had encountered a grizzly. And we actually, I'm pretty sure it was Dudley, called an warden came out, super cool, gave us a camera to hang. And he took care of it later because we knew where it was. He came out on a four-wheeler. Nice. Didn't.

I mean, he was asking us about the hunt, like high-fiving on the bowl. because, you know, we had the head was already down and, like, hey, can you hang this camera? Because there are not, there hasn't been gris here in a hundred years. It ended up being a color-phased brown bear. Oh, really? I'm sorry, color-phase black bear. Okay. But, yeah, I don't like close interactions with bears.

Yeah, I'm with you. When the carcass was fully buried and I'm listening to two experience hunters talking about that's behavior for grises. Maybe I'll just pull the old sidearm out and just stay in here while you guys. ready to go and I'm just going to be looking around in this direction. But it was super cool. You hear horror stories, but also I think a lot of those horror stories are because sometimes people are assholes and they hate authority figures of any kind and they think that wardens are out there to ruin their day as opposed to make sure everybody's following the rules. Yeah, every cop deals with it. And at the end of the day, game wardens are law enforcement.

You know, they're sworn, we're sworn to do everything in, you know, city police, county sheriffs, the penal code, we're trained in all of that. We just want to emphasize the wildlife stuff and the conservation laws and the environmental protection laws. But through COVID, since we last talked, you know, you've seen the game warden morph even more into kind of being a general tradesman in law enforcement. You know, we all got sucked into, in some states, crowd control with civil unrest, you know, medical contingencies at hospitals, backcountry patrol after COVID really, really got hot and heavy shortly after our last meeting,

you know, on the first show. Which was, what episode was that, Michael? 97. There you go. Damn, that was a while ago. Damn, bud. Yeah. Here we are.

Long time. But the backcountry was getting impacted so crazy through the COVID era. It was nuts. I first started to see it with the cartels with all my border buddies and BLM and border control and all the ice guys down there. And just cartels work in a culture of chaos. And they thrive on it. So it was, you know, open season free tickets to Disneyland. The world's on a lockdown.

Now we can just run with impunity into the great, you know, United States, and they did. And I remember calling up and talking to the team leader that replaced me, all the operators that I'm still in contact with from our team, and they're like, John, this is crazy. It's like 2013 during our pilot program. It is off the hook because they couldn't scout. They couldn't do raids.

Nobody knew what the exposure issues were yet with COVID-19. So federally and state, we all got on these lockdowns to stay put and not do raids. So all these MET guys were scouting all their areas by themselves, finding rows, finding cartels in operation, and going, all right, let me go, let me go, let me go, let me go. I got my dog, let me go. And it took months to get back in it. So the cartels knew, they played to the condition of the world. And on the border, same thing, smuggling, fentanyl was starting to get hot and heavy then, methamphetamine, and the trafficking was crazy. So we really saw that impact. And then the fallout, you know, three years of everything it took to finally get past

masks and lockdowns and protocol and all the different, you know, hangups I think we're having as a society to operate freely. And now it seems like we're sort of back to a new normal, I guess is the best way to say it. And the guys are doing a lot of work, mostly in the private land sector now because, as we talked about and change agents, and what we're starting to see is that impact now to private lands, because it's so easy to hide in plain sight on incentivized black market that's just booming in the cannabis realm and it's just one faction of what these cartels are doing and not just the mexican cartels but now the mong and the chinese cartels that are running with impunity in northern california especially sikyu county which we touched on just a little bit yeah on the other

show we just had somebody on recently the episode's not out yet it'll be out before this episode with you and i but he was a member of a legal grow operation nice on tribal land oh interesting okay which got raided by state law enforcement. And they destroyed all of the grow. Like he had all of the paperwork. He tried to take. It's interesting. I'll be curious to see.

Let me just, spoiler alert. There was a lawsuit involved in this. I imagine. Yeah. It sounds like it's lined up for it. I'm no expert in that particular agency, but onyx and property lines could really help with some of these issues.

And I'm also not an expert on tribal lands and what's allowed and what isn't allowed, but from my understanding, it is a sovereign nation. Right. They have the ability to do what they want. And it seems like the local government. And by that, I mean local law enforcement drastically overstepped their bounds. So it, I don't, I still don't understand how all of this works. I think more than half the states in the U.S. now, say Montana is an example.

It started medicinal, flipped to recreational, which you can't drive 50 yards without seeing dispensary, which is wild to me. Yeah. I didn't realize there was that much of a demand. But then you sit down and talk with somebody like yourself, the demand on the black market side hasn't slowed at all. Not at all. Yeah.

And then so there's cartels who are bringing, you know, mostly, this is our source cities up here. We have fentanyl issues, I'm sure Libby does as well. Big time. It gets a little, rural. It gets a little meth-y, as I've been told by the sheriffs. Yeah, big time. Meth for the up, apparently fentanyl for the down, sometimes combine the two.

Live your life how you want. I'm not going to judge it. Right. The source cities for us are all on the West Coast and then it comes inward, but it all is coming from the southern border, even though we're 60 miles from the northern border. Right. But I don't understand still, you know, in talking, his name is Preston, talking with Preston about the tribal land, the state government, the federal government. It's all these authorities and property lines. I can't make sense of what the fuck's going on.

If we can have legal grows, and that's doing great, sometimes, but then also sometimes they get rated. But then even when the tribal land, which is supposed to be in sovereign nation, that's supposed to be its own thing. But then that gets rated, but then it's still federally illegal. How is anybody supposed to navigate this? It's a mess, man. It's like, what's going on here? Dude, seriously, it is such a hot mess because every state regulates a little different. And, you know, I've said this on a couple of shows, and you and I've talked about it, you know, off show is nationalize, regulate nationally.

do it like wine or tobacco, you know, and kind of even the market and even the quality standards, right? And take out this black market interstate transport. That's how... Do you think that would work? If they nationally legalized, do you think that would have the impact to shut down the cartels? I don't think it would have much more of an impact than now. Because in the states that aren't legal, the black market demand, And is there, what is it, 47 to 50 million Americans are cannabis users?

You know, we're not going to change that. We're not going to, you know, big brother it if you're into cannabis, that's your thing. Great. Yeah. But so you're going to get it somehow. But do we want you getting a poison product? Hell no. You know, do we want it with EPA ban poisons like carbopherin and some of this new stuff I just

found out about last night. We'll talk about it in a minute. And then knowing that the groups that are doing it and making that product and making a ton of money off it off the black market or, one, putting a poison product out there. And two, they don't give a crap about health and human safety or, you know, the American ideal that we're all trying to live safely in our own country. They're just going to make the money. They're going to have, you know, kind of straight line distribution. They have distribution centers.

The Hmongs, the Chinese have it. The Mexicans have it. They have it figured out where the legal growers now and like, I don't know what present situation is, but great that you're talking to him. And I think we, you and I've talked a little bit about the good relationships we've built. And, you know, relationships I have with legal growers up in. Northern California and all over central and southern California now that are as environmentally conscious as we are. They love wildlife.

They love waterways. They love purity. They're conserving their water. They're doing ridiculously good things and steps that weren't even required before we regulated and there are all these permits they need. Those are the growers you want to see out there if you're going to regulate. Yeah. And those are the growers now.

A guy like whatever Preston went through is definitely a negative experience and I can't Monday morning quarterbacking it and not knowing the particulars. But if you've got a guy like that that's trying to do it right, and he, you know, is potentially in a lawsuit now, and he's got nothing but red tape, and he's like, I'm out of it. You know, and I have so many tier one legitimate environmentally conscious growers that have done everything and more than we've asked from an agency permitting level going, I'm out.

I'm losing money. The black market is killing my legal, you know, basically take home. My overhead with distributors, inspections, permits, and everything. I'm not making a living. I'm going broke if I even get paid from a distributor. And that's what the legitimate growers are dealing with in Calais. California under Prop 64 and being at our old home state. I know we have a whole different thing going on in Montana.

We don't have those issues because we just don't have the climate to be a dedicated weed state. But man, California sure does. You better get your grow in quickly and Montana. What have we got like 35 days? I was going to say eight. Maybe. We have this week, guys, because it's like 100 degrees and it's 10 days of great sunlight. So do you have a strain that grows and we can harvest in 10 days?

My wife last year. And we're on. We were at that lake house. We were living out there in last year. she made an attempt at tomato plant. How'd that go? I think we netted about a baker's dozen. Oh my gosh.

Of the little... Yeah. Yeah. You got the micro-tomatios like ultra-small. There were more. The deer also found them to be delicious. And they just gave zero fucks and walked right up on the patio and just...

Oh, dude. It is. You know what? I have relatives in and around the spread that are masters at gardens. and they got the window figured out, and they're out there like on an operation with a deadline, you'd think it was life or death.

It's like, you better get it in. Got to get the deer fence up. It's got to be 12 feet. We're having deer wreck everything, and it's got, it's a tight window. So fortunately, I'm glad we don't have that growing window.

I wish we could have a garden, but, you know, the cannabis thing I see in California, man, I don't wish that in any state. Can they grow a year round in Cali? Pretty much. Yeah, that makes sense. Now, now in the dead of winter,

you know, you're going to see more indoor. It's going to be in hoop houses. But if they're doing outdoor grows, um, when we don't have the El Nino, like we had this epic winter in California, just like we did up here. This year, the winter was amazing. And I was down through portions of the winter and spring in my old stomping grounds in Cali,

going back into the backcountry of the co-park where I've met my first game ordin, learned a backpack. I was on ranches, depredating coyotes and hogs and doing things for the ranchers, doing brandings. And I'm like, when has it ever been this green? When there's been this much water? And everyone's going 86, 87, the year graduated high school. And that's when I, that's when I,

immersed in, you know, getting back in the back country and living back there. And Andy, that was a true story. And with that type of water, and now that it's dry, outdoor, indoor, you name it, it's going to be gangbusters. But on a drier year, we've literally seen grows going in February, and we have raided the week up to Christmas

and taken out cartels harvesting grows in public wildlands. Darn near at Christmas. You know, and it's sort of raining maybe and they're still pulling plants out. So, yeah. So the Mexican cartels make sense. I mean, from a geographic perspective, they're a physical border from the United States. Chinese self-explanatory.

Where are the Hmong's from? That's the first time I've heard that term. You know, they're all coming from like Michigan, Wisconsin area. They have settled over there. They found... Where are they originally from, the Hmong? Yeah, down Southeast Asia. Okay.

Are we talking like Mongolian? Is that short for Mongolian? No. We're talking about Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam era. All in that general area. And when they're coming over, they settled kind of in the upper Midwest originally. Interesting. And yeah, this was all kind of news to me as of recent because this was not an issue in Cali, say, 10 years ago.

It was just starting to kind of fire up. And they found with the lax laws and the issues we talked about in change agents, you know, with misdemeanor penalties for massive illegal growing, they said, hey, if I buy a plot of land that's in the middle of a county that has no law enforcement presence because it's so spread out. and there's limited number of deputies and it's a misdemeanor, then I'm going to take my chances. And if there's some warrant, they raid my grow, they're going to take all my plants. And, yeah, if there's some environmental crimes or human trafficking,

I might get prosecuted. But if it's just the marijuana thing or cannabis thing, maybe not, probably not, you know. And so what they ended up doing is they picked like, Sisku County, California is like a hot bit because it's the most pristine, most remote stretch of the California northern border bordering Oregon. You got Mount Shaston.

in that area, you know, at the tallest peak right there in Cali, beautiful, that glacier water runoff. And because the county of Sisku elected not to regulate under Prop 64 at the county level, they were just on their own. So the mongs, especially the Chinese, bought massive amounts of private property and just started putting up hoop houses, digging their own illegal wells, taking water trucks out in the middle of the night and tapping into fire hydrants and the city water supply like Doris, California. And this is remote, man. This is like going into, you know, Eureka or an area that would, like Libby, where I'm from.

Rural community, lots of farming, lots of ranching, you know, very little population, a lot of veterans, a lot of middle America kind of mindset. And all of a sudden, it's, you know, 1,000, 2,000, a couple years later, 5,000. And now they estimate between 10 and 15,000 plus private land, illegal grows between those entities. And the Mexican cartels are up there too, but really it's the Chinese in Wong really hitting that area the hardest. And then Chasta County has that problem too. Is that, are those grows, are those organizations tied all the way back to their country of origin? Or is that population groups inside of the U.S. managing itself? How far back does that organized crime network go?

I don't know if it goes overseas, but I do know some of the upper echelon grobosses that have actually faced some sort of prosecution. and there's only been a handful of them, have very big wealth, very big ties, and I believe back to the old country as well. But what they've done in California, human trafficking, you know, there's slave labor basically working in some of these grows. The grow bosses are making a whole lot of money.

We talked about the animal abuse stuff. And this is crazy, because it's perfectly time for today to talk to you guys, is I get a report last night from guys working up there and they go, this is crazy. We just did a debrief. on a massive grow operation that happened just a couple weeks ago. I think it was July 11th through 13th,

and it was 24 search warrants. It was a unified cannabis strike team, which is a bunch of agencies, our agency water board. Everybody working this under the regulation on the cannabis control board. And essentially what happened was they did 24 warrants. I think they seized 67, 68,000 plants. I want to say 800 or 8,000 pounds of processed. So that was a pretty big hit.

They hit 24 spots. It was all unregulated. And when they're debriefing this, some of the guys were telling us that we talked about the Carbohyran and the EPA ban poisons that go into these illegal grows, especially cartel run. That's nasty stuff. And to put in perspective for our listeners, Carboferrin is a nerve agent. It's anticoagulant. It's banned in the U.S. for general use.

It's a felony to use or possess it. It's not used on agriculture legitimately in America anymore because one bottle of this stuff, say, 12, 16 ounces of crystal powder is made to be diluted into 6,000 gallons of water. And these guys are dumping, you know, several, you know, a good portion of that bottle in a six, five-gallon backpack sprayer and going to work. And you can imagine the potency of this crap, right? On the plants. I'm surprised the plants can survive, to be honest.

Yeah, exactly. And so this new thing they saw, and I remember when we were working with the Daily Caller and Jorge Ventura and I and Sognick, we were all running around with Siski County Sheriff and interviewing those ranchers, cattle. community members of this problem in Siscue and Shasta counties. And we would go into these grow houses and you'd see like side rooms. And you'd see the Tyvex suit with the rebreather masks on and stripped down and all these vats, these 55-calon drums of like mystery chemicals and going, dude, if they're wearing that to

apply this in an indoor grow site and then they're stripping down and decontaminating, what the heck is that stuff? I mean, if it's not carbophorine, it's definitely nasty. So we would have to aerate these things very carefully when you cut them open, you know, aerate it, get the CO2 levels proper and definitely let that stuff to dissipate and test before you go in.

I mean, you know it's nothing but a hazmat. Well, now, I just learned this, but they're seeing signs of mystery chemicals where they're making like a smudge pot where they're taking like a paint can or a soup can and they're mixing these chemicals and they're poking holes in it

and they're burning it. And now it's like this burn, you know, basically this aroma from smoke that apparently is, you know, defoliating all the plants in these enclosed spaces. And this stuff is nasty. Super nasty. Yeah. I mean, how much more evil can it get was the quote that one of the guys sent to me? He goes, how much more evil can this get, man? They're saying this stuff is more toxic and deadly than carbophoran. It's done by it looks like the mongs primarily. We don't have the chemicals identified. And as a result of the operations that have happened And since we were there, they still have to analyze this stuff and find out head deadly.

This stuff is. But apparently public members living in that rural county, as well as some of the growers, have been going into the ER for respiratory poisoning issues from inhaling this smoke. Checks out. Checks out. You know, but now the public. And I get, hey, if it happens to the growers, you know, don't have a lot of sympathy for that. Come on.

You know, what are you guys doing? You're executing a whole lot of evil to our environment and our public. But, you know, we still have the townfolk of that Northern California having to live around this. they're outnumbered. So it's nice to see that these task forces have come together and they're targeting. Siscuit County is an example that wasn't getting the attention it needed, but a handful of the Home Sheriff Department dealing with that last year. But that was 24 locations out of 10 to 15,000.

And you know from your special operations career how much workup goes into doing an operation safely. And getting the resources to take down 24 sites, rate them high risk because they had guns. we seized a lot of guns. You know, you know you have other felonies potentially, and you have some bad people, and it might get Western. So that workup and then dealing with the poisons and eradicating that, that took weeks, if not months to work up.

And I can only imagine, because I know it wasn't just our agency, it was multiple agencies. That's tying people up for a long time playing whack-a-mole on one little mole in a mountain of moles all over, you know. So we got to look at a bigger solution. We got to look at, you know, how we're going to regulate different. differently, how we're going to de-incentivize the black market. And when we talk about the cartels,

and you ask a great question during change agents when we did that remotely, and thank you for asking it, was, how do we classify these cartels? You know, are they domestic terrorists? And I wholeheartedly say yes. How can you not? You know, with the fentanyl crisis. And now, you know, you talk about fentanyl being in our rural communities like here in the Flathead Valley. You go up to Lincoln County. Oh, we have it. Yeah. I hear about it. All the cop cars here are just. decked out with Narcan. Yeah, you have to be, right? And officers' exposure issues and every, yeah, all of it.

But I'm even seeing it, you know, I go back to the Silicon Valley and I talk to people in the Silicon Valley that I went to college with or relatives or friends, affluent areas. And, you know, they got high school seniors that are good students. They're, you know, not abusing drugs and they're athletes. And they need a painkiller for like, you know, a slightly, you know, aggravated meniscus or something or a shoulder injury. And they get a fentanyl pill.

given to them by a friend that looks like a prescription opioid. And they go in to do their homework in their bedroom and mom's knocking on the door the next morning and they're not waking up. And that's happened to several friends and family members' friends. No one directly attached to me, but attached enough to make it personal. How do we combat that? I mean, do we have to buy or issue home test kits for that stuff? I was having this conversation with a friend.

That's a good question. Well, I was having this conversation with a friend about parenting not too long ago. And for parents, do you have any kids? No kids. You're fucking lucky, man. They're the best. I love them to death sometimes. Emphasis on sometimes.

If any parent out there is going to lie to themselves and think that your kids are not going to be exposed to drugs, alcohol, and sex, the best you can't. Well, the best you could hope for is that not all three at the same time. Right. At least make the best decisions you can. minimize the risk at once. So I remember growing up in Santa Cruz, weed was everywhere. Yeah.

As I think it has been since the inception of Santa Cruz. Absolutely. I don't remember ever seeing powdered substances of any kind. But again, this could also be the people that I, in my social circle, it wasn't their jam. Maybe it was in my high school. I personally don't remember it. Talking to my kids now, even in the Flathead Valley. Yeah.

Acids available. Molly is available. Cocaine. Michael, what do they call that shit, the concentrated weed dabs or something like that? Yeah. You're a functioning drug users. Yeah, I'm a functioning heroin addict.

Yeah, perfect. But even that, heroin. You're solid, though, man. You're so clear for being a funny. Functioning is a kid. Functioning, yeah. It's impressive. Probably heroin,

meth for sure. So it's out there. I have a 15 year old and 18 year old and almost a 20 year old. And I was talking with this individual. What do you do as a responsible parent? Do you provide your children with a testing kit and educate them and have conversations? Because I can't even, I can't even, like again, growing up, maybe you would get some weed that would be of a lower quality.

Yeah. Again, having never been exposed to a powder or cocaine or something like that, but let's say that at a young age, they're at a party and that's there, how do you not know or how do you know whether or not there is fentanyl in that? I was talking, it was again, and then so my brother-in-law, San Diego City firefighter, the number of stories that he has of responding to calls where people are uncomfortable, Right. Narchanum. They come back and their response is, oh, we were just, we just thought we were using cocaine. And again, it's like live your life however you want to. If you're a consenting adult and you want to spend your days hitting nose beers, like, go ahead. I don't give a shit. I don't give a shit what you do. Yeah. My point is they weren't trying to do fentanyl. Right. So they thought they were getting one thing. But they didn't know. And that's the thing right there. The call that he was telling me about, there was an unresponsive person. And he happened to say. And he happened to say. And he happened to. And he. And he happened to. send one of the firefighters to just kind of do a sweep in the actual structure, they found

another person passed out in the bathroom, that the original caller didn't even know it was faced down, all from the same thing. So let's say you have a 17-year-old that for whatever reason wants to try cocaine, how do you as a parent help prepare them for the fact that it might be laced with something where, not that I would want them to do cocaine lace with fentany, but I certainly want them to do cocaine laced with fentanyl. I don't know the right answer to it. It's a good question, man, and it's a hard answer, but I think you kind of hit it on the head. Test kits may be a solution just without open education.

I'll use an example. I remember the valedictorian Fort Bragg High School was doing a paper on the real dangers or not dangers or miss of cannabis. And she said, a lot of my high school friends do it. I'm not doing it. You know, I don't want to be like the preacher girl that says don't smoke weed. Come on. It's weed, right? High school.

So she said, you know, I don't know how to address that. Well, I ended up going up there. And I remember this might have been right when Met started. It might have been even before we had our team. But I was already doing a lot of that work. And I spoke to like a high school assembly. And I said, guys, I'm not big brother. I'm not here to say don't use drugs.

You know, that is a cliche thing that a guy in a law enforcement uniform, especially a game warden, is going to be saying it's not going to add up. I want to show you some pictures. I want to tell you some stories. And I just want you that if you're going to experiment and you will experiment, you know, just know what you're getting into. Know the source, know the people you're with. And this is what carbopferrin-lase stuff is on the market and it's invisible.

This is what it does to animals. This is what it does if you get too much ingested and this stuff hasn't dissipated on the bud you're smoking off of the black market, know, your source. And you show them dead mountain lions and oozing bears and bear cubs and, you know, toxic pink shit going down a creek. they're like, man, she told me, she goes, you know what? After your presentation, John, it was crazy. Because she wrote a whole paper on it. I got to see it after.

It was really a neat thing she did, especially up there. I mean, the Emerald Triangle, right? And she goes, I have like 10 or 11 out of the 20 that are in my inner circle that just said, you know what? We've been smoking weed at parties and with our friends for for ages, and it's just not worth it. We're just done. But I think that's a common story.

So again, it's a very common story. And I think just to your point, I think it's, you know, educate them without, you know, being you're not going to do this and like it's a stigma, but let's just what's really going on out there. Show them some fentanyl stats. You know, there's videos on fentanyl with reactions to law enforcement guys getting exposed just by, even with, you know, nitrils, tears,

and they get something done. If there's not an arcane right there, they're done, as you know. And I think it's not to scare them. I just say, knowledge is powered. I mean, I think that's all we can do. And at the end of the day, when I talk about, you know, fighting this hidden war as a national priority,

we got to look at, we're not just going to send a bunch of law enforcement, against it. We're not going to necessarily just bring, you know, get military assets on both sides of the border, although that would help on the enforcement side. And would we stop it entirely? We're never going to stop it if there's demand, right? We got to educate. We got to have those centers. We've got to have people that will not judge that you can call 24-7. And you know, Andy, test kits? I mean, that's like a like a technical tactical tool we would use in our tool belt to go on an op. And I never thought I'd see the day where we have to like give those to our kids. But if this fentanyl thing

does not pace down or cut, I mean. Or the next fentanyl. What's it going to be? Super fentanyl, you know? I remember. Velociraptor version of fentanyl. What's next? I was talking with my sister.

You know, she is a nurse practitioner and is around people who are sedated or medicated. I remember hearing about, you know, prokocet, the opioid crisis, and then hearing about things like

Dilaudid, which I haven't heard about that a lot on the street. But then fentanyl And it just seems like there's going to always be a next. For sure. There's going to be in next. And I don't know if giving kids test kits is the right answer because I understand the argument from parents saying, well, I don't want them, I don't want them to ever even experiment or try it. Kind of kind of live in the real world.

Like go back to when you were that age. Most people are going to go through a phase where they're going to have exposure to that experiment with it. I guess the hope is to get them through the valley. Yeah. Get them through the valley if they're at that week's. But there's insecurity, it's peer pressure. I mean, we all remember the days of being a, you know, not just a teenager, but a preteen and all that buildup of trying to find our, you know,

little role in the world and acceptance. And I can't get into their heads. You know, how can we get into our kids' heads and speak with all that experience of the mistakes we made? And I look back with my nieces, nephews, you know, other kids I'm mentoring or involved with. And there's a lot of really good kids out there. And I'm like, yeah, I know you're doing something. Something's not right. You're off a little bit.

I'm not going to judge. I won't mention names, but I've seen guys go through that where, you know, they're in high school and they're a senior. Maybe they're a junior on the precipice and the personality changes completely and they kind of go dark. And they're not doing, quote unquote, healthy activities that we would consider healthy, you know, as adults, out in the woods, being physical fitness, making sure we're in shape, all that kind of stuff. And mentally, you know, healthy because they're going through questions, right? And I think they're vulnerable when they're in that crew and getting that reinforcement. And so I'm not sure, you know, test kits, that's a big step because are you sanctioning this use? You know, that's the argument that I would expect coming back.

Yeah, exactly. But I don't remember something as lethal as this when we were growing up. Never. Not where you and I grew up, no way. And this stuff, I mean, even compared to meth, you know, or heroin overdose, this stuff is exponentially, I mean, to the cube power more deadly, more dangerous and so instantaneous. And it's so camouflaged. you know, the fact that it's that it's packaged like legitimate prescription opioids, you would get coming out of a surgery from, you know, a Tier 1 hospital anywhere.

And yet every third pill could be the pill, you know, the pill that kills you. Hard pass. It's a hard pass. Yeah, don't even touch it. You know, ibuprofen, yeah, that's soreness. I'll see a doctor. You know, if I have to take something, I'll take an anti-inflam. I'm not going to take an opioid.

But, yeah, that's a big, big question. And I think that gets to looking at the problem. of that drug threat and all the other things we have in this cartel problem throughout the U.S. and making sure that's a big component of it, whether it's education, whether it's providing support, having feedback presenting to these kids so they really see what's going on. Because I guarantee the message isn't that clear. Not everybody is getting the presentation that fortunately I had the opportunity to share with these kids in Fort Bragg, and that was just a microcosm of kids, but it made a difference, you know.

Even when the messaging is clear, I remember being their age. That's true, yeah. You're going to hear the message. It's not a for sure win. Whether you listen to the message or two different things. Of the mistakes that I have made in my life, I have been warned against most of them. Yeah. I've heard stories of other people doing the same things that I did.

And of course, self-justified that I could get away with it or I needed to experience it on my own. I'm right there with you, brother. So even when you do hear. I understand there has to be work done in that area as well. because I don't even remember when the war on drugs started. I know we're still fighting it. I would argue we're not winning it. We're not winning a thing.

So I don't know if additional resources and money and if it's all thrown at the supply problem, if we don't address the demand issue, it's just going to be never ending. Yeah, I agree. I agree. It's a demand issue. The demand has not slowed down, obviously, so the cartels have not slowed down. I mean, they're making billions off this. You know, this is a multi-billion dollar industry.

Why would they stop if the demand's there? it has to start early. So we have to look at it from, you know, every approach. Demand, education, enforcement, shutting it down. And I'd like to see more and more efforts in Mexico shutting it down at the source, you know. Changing the designation to domestic terrorists would help with that for sure. For sure.

You would certainly be allowed some other authorities for sure. And actions. I mean, so the 24 locations up in Northern California that were raided, what was the end result of that? Is that prison time for everybody involved? Is it just fines? I mean, how much did that actually disrupt the infrastructure? You know, I can't tell you for sure what charges were filed, obviously,

because I just have a general layout of what the governor's office put out. And I know from people working up there on teams and stuff that have filtered back, you know, some of the, well, like these smudge pots of, you know, toxic whatever is coming out of these small cartel grows. What do they do with those, by the way? What's that? The smudge pots. Do they encapsulate that stuff in a biohazard container and try to get it? Oh, yeah. Yeah, what we have to do with carbopherin. If a carbopherom bottle is cracked open, it has to go in a hazmat container where there can't be any leakage. It has to be disposed of. It's a lot of work, man. It becomes a tier one shit show. Once we know we have that product. And, you know, and most cartel grows, we have that product. But this is new. And now they haven't even identified it. It did have Chinese monikers and lettering on it. Apparently from the containers is what I was told. Now they're in the analysis process because they literally just discovered this from what I can tell within the last.

month. So once they figure that out, that's going to go into what type of protocol. I would guess when it's just in a sedate form where it's a crystalline, a liquid, or whatever it is, how it's packaged, standard hazmat protocol will work. But once, if it's, if you go into a gross site and this stuff is on fire and it's burning in a pot, you know, and you're anywhere near that. No, no, no. Hard pass. Hard pass. I mean, that's a nerve it. You know, that's a poison gas. That's like a bio weapon, right? I wonder how they're getting it to the U.S. Yeah. Well, we do know that from the fentanyl side, the Chinese are providing all the precursor chemicals, and they're getting it right to Mexico, two ports, to go into the dirty labs that the Mexican president says, we don't

have fentanyl produced by cartels in our country. Dan Crenshaw called him out on that appropriate so, and I had to give, you know, Dan a shout out on that whole thing. When Tijuana, it was two million fentanyl pills were discovered in a lab in Tijuana right around that statement, you know, from south of the border. And that's when this issue came up and Dan really breached it with like, look, we need to handle this on another classification with what we're talking about right here. But we know it's coming from China. Ed Calderon and I talked about this too. Coming from China, sanctioned, cartels are working hand in hand to make it, and then they're

just exporting them and getting them here through all the smuggling routes, just like meth, just like weed, just like trafficking. And that's how it's happening. I'm really curious to find out, brother, what this product is, where it's being produced, if it is being produced in China. and this is only, you know, statements and initial reports. Yeah. But this stuff is coming from solid sources of people up there working on the ground

and doing the raids, you know, and having extensive law enforcement experience of having dealt with that problem, both when I was operational and well after. And it's just seeing it evolve to a worse situation with more poisons, more exposure issues. And obviously, this stuff is still going to be on those plants after the smoke clears. It's going to taint that plant, just like the carbopherin, you know, spray does when it's diluted with a little bit of water.

So imagine ingesting that now, knowing how bad it can be, but it's invisible because it's just, it's a smoke getting into the flower, right, or into the water. So that's what freaked me out. And that's, you know what, continue level of evil to make money,

knowing that you're going to be 4,000 steps removed from that kid that ingests that poison and dies or develops massive respiratory problems that affect their life if it's not fatal and all those things. So I will stay in touch with you on that and give you that information as soon as I hear more. But that was an eye opener, you know? Demand.

It's all that demand, you know? It really is. I don't know how we solve the demand issue. I think, I mean, within 10 years, I'd be shocked if it wasn't state legal in all 50. Right. But again, if it's not legal at a federal level, we exist in this weird place where maybe sometimes they'll take action, maybe sometimes they won't. We're still giving people an opportunity to operate and navigate inside of the seams of the regulation. Yeah, I don't.

Well, I think, I don't know if we can ever solve the demand side. I don't know that we can. And you made a really good point right now when you talk about every state doing their own thing versus a national standard. When you look at Colorado and all the problems they had when they regulated with everything to the east and everything to the northeast, right? I've just said interstate transport of legal weed on the black market and then the legal underground market becoming a big part of that problem. It didn't work. You know, it didn't stop it.

That weed that's supposed to stay in Colorado left. We all know black market weed on a massive scale is leaving California, and California is a regulated state. So much so that regulated Northern California farmers are going, hey, man, with these permit costs, and we're down to $400, $500 a pound, and that might be a generous statement where the market, A pound? Yeah.

That's a shit ton of weed. Yeah. Yeah, but it's down low. I mean, this tier one weed used to be three, four thousand dollars a pound. Yeah. But the cartels are getting their money. They're getting several thousand or more a pound through their distribution centers. Yeah, because they're exporting it out of state.

They're export. Exactly. They're exporting out of state. They got distribution on the black market. They got all those runners filtered out in all 50. And so what do you have? You don't have permit fees. They're not on the radar.

They're not paying taxes. It's still a cash business. So that needs to be restructured, you know, and I'm preaching the choir on that, and I've been pushing that for five years. I mean, we knew in the last chapter, Hidden War, version one, said two years of Prop 64 and what's not working at this point. And now we're five years past it. It's six years now. And what I saw in Sisku County and what I've been seen firsthand is just the message it has to get out. If you're going to regulate, you got to regulate right, state by state.

And I don't believe you can ever water down this stuff when it's illegal, when it's got point. poisons on it in public or private land to anything less than a felony because the environmental impacts and the toxic impacts to consumers. But that's not how you sell weed regulation. You don't make it a felony because it's only wheat. And it's mindset. What do you think the hang-up is at the national level? What do you think would be the hardest hurdle to get over to just federally make it legal, put it into a structure where, because again, if my choice is people, young people to old people, like make whatever choice you want. As long as you're a consenting adult,

that's generally what I fall back to. If the choice is you're getting a product from unknown origin, an unknown quality and unknown risk, or you are getting a product from a known origin, known quality, tested with less risk, risk being in air quotes, of course I'm going to go for the latter,

for regulated. Why do you think at a federal level that is so hard to get across the hurdle? I think there's still, you know, just a conservative viewpoint on cannabis in enough areas and also the scheduling under the DEA scheduling code. It's got to come up that schedule one, right? It's idiotic that it's on schedule one.

I have no idea why it is. I mean, you want to talk about an over-the-counter drug that is dangerous? How about alcohol? Exactly. Exactly. And look, it's regulated by BATF and look how it's regulated. Schedule, whatever the, what is, is alcohol even on a schedule? I don't even know.

It's five o'clock somewhere. It's on somebody's schedule. It's like, we're getting close. But I'm saying, if you look at some of these, like, I have a bunch of friends who have gone down for psychedelic treatment as well. And again, psychedelics have never been my thing. Never tried mustrooms, never tried ayahuasca, I began, the DMT, all of those things. There are studies going on for safe, efficacious use, therapeutic use for these things.

And if you view them from a safety or a risk profile, they're all safer than alcohol. Exactly, yeah. But there's this huge hang-up about actually legalizing that, again, regulating those things. But you could go out and buy a six-pack of whiskey if you want to and get as blasted in the safety of your own home. And start destroying lives. Yeah. Like instantly. Yeah.

It's a true story. I don't know, especially this is an organic plant from the ground. You know, it's not a fabricated, it's not an engineered plant, cannabis. And, you know, I don't think it really matters where you sit on the cannabis spectrum. user, non-user, we've talked a little bit about this before, but at the bottom line is what is having its schedule doing to the country right now? What is it doing to this embedded presence of transnational criminal organizations for the moniker, i.e. cartels, and given them a free pass to exploit us.

I mean, it'll be hard to justify on like just a pros, cons. It makes no sense. It makes no sense. Yeah. Yeah, it does. It makes no sense. It's us, I think, as a country being hard to convince to change, if anything. I mean, change really does freak a lot of people out.

I noticed this in 30 years in my agency. And when we started focusing on cannabis enforcement and a tactical unit for that, what? No, we're game wardens, man. That's not what we do. We check hunting licenses. We tag, you know, check your tag. And we teach hunter ed and we go check fishermen and blah, blah, blah.

Yeah, I know. And we do that really well. And we need to do that. But you know what? There's a new enemy in town that's doing that. that damage and they're doing it on steroids at exponential levels. So we're just supposed to say, yeah, I'm not real comfortable doing that because that's the old school thing I was born to do.

It's just adaptive to change, you know, and being open to it. And, you know, sometimes we have to go kicking and screaming. But there's never been, I think, in our country, bud, a more necessary time for aggressive change that makes sense. Not radical, sensible change. But we don't need to dilly-dally, and I think you're right. Cannabis needs to come off that scheduling. It needs to be looked at federally.

it needs to be regulated federally and stop this interstate or significantly reduce this interstate transport from one state that's legal to a black market and then kill that state that's got it legal because the black market is, you know, sucking down those sales and you're driving good growers out of the business. So that comes down to policy. And you can throw all the money you want at it. And right now, I don't think from a cannabis enforcement standpoint, I can honestly say that my old agency, the California Department of Fish and Wildlife's Cannabis Enforcement Program, those guys and those gals are awesome. They're doing everything by the numbers.

There's probably 100 approximate game wardens out of the whole force dedicated to that now. That's so much of it's an issue it's become. And all this cannabis money from the permitting is driving their bus to go out and do a ton of work with all the right equipment. And they could work 24-7, 24 hours a day, keep going. They're not going to get all of it. I don't think they're going to put a den in it because the whack-a-mole thing is transcended from policy, and I don't care how many operators we put at this thing, we got a bad

policy that's incentivizing it. We're going to get outproduced because of the demand. So the demand is an issue and how we regulated is an issue. And I think those two things, if that changed, even just on the policy standpoint, demand's going to be hard to change because we as Americans, you know, we like our comfort, you know, we as humans, you know, don't like to feel pain or anxiety or depression or anything else. And all of these substances are getting people by, you know, maybe not in a healthy way, but they're definitely getting people by. And that has to start from day one, obviously. And I mean, we talk about good parenting, we talk about good peers, we talk about healthy outlets, we talk about accessibility, you know, all those things that

when bonding, when depression, when things happen with kids trip, and I, you know, I go back to the mistakes I made growing up, man, I made a ton. It isn't funny how we look back now. and I think you're 40, 45, and I'm going to be 55 this November, and I go, man, what I thought I knew, I had no clue. I was that motivated, had it figured out, I'm going to college, or I'm going into law enforcement or a military, I'm going to do something, I'm going to give back, I'm not going to do drugs. I never did cannabis or any of that, you know, didn't do any of it, you know, drank a little bit. And I look back now and go, man, wasn't I naive? you know and I think I could have made different decisions along the way of how I dealt with people that were having problems and now I see it you know and I think the wisdom that's you know been acquired both professionally and personally in this realm and given a shit about it has really made me look more open-minded I mean if I had said we're going to regulate cannabis back in the day when I was a kid I would have been oh that's a drug you know I was told how bad this stuff is you know for my parents and blah blah blah blah blah it is a drug but so is the coffee we're enjoying right now too yeah and like I didn't come back to a cannabis organic plant from the earth.

You know, we know what it does, where we've been studying it federally. We've seen the medicinal value. And you mentioned the psychedelics or PTSD and some of the issues warriors going through, especially our SF guys. Our military veterans coming back with a ton of combat experience, right? A lot of cops, a lot of anybody in a stressful situation. I'd like to see it studied, you know, logically, safely, scientifically, you know, not personally, and find the value of this stuff documented, you know.

cannabis needs more of that because the schedule one's the schedule one listing is ridiculous. I look back growing up and I just feel like the risk profile is so much higher for the modern generation. Again, I mean, I guess you could have gotten some, I don't know what you would dip weed in. I'm sure you could dip it in something. But alcohol was around. We was certainly around combining that with social decisions or driving, you know. All of those.

And those exist for my children as well, but they are just exposed to things that I think that the risk profile is so much higher. And then also the pressure that they have now by willingly engaging in connecting with people all over the world via social media. Exactly. There is a tie in there somewhere. I am not an expert by any stretch on statistics in general or suicide or societal issues. But the number of children that between just talking to my own children that made the choice to end their life at an age before their life had even really begun. Right.

And I, to a degree, I think I can understand, I don't understand the choice, but I remember being that age and not having a good understanding of time. Right. I feel so shitty in this moment and this moment is going to last forever. I didn't have the context on perspective that it's not going to last forever. but what feels like forever to you right now is actually just three days. Yeah. This is the biggest crisis I've ever felt in my heart and I'm losing my mind. This is the...

Well, it goes back to the risk profile has changed for young people. And there's the substance stuff where you make a bad decision, which we are all capable of doing in that environment and you get something tainted with something. And it's like, unless the police or law enforcement are there to help you, that's one thing. Then the social pressure of being constantly connected to your peers. Like if I had been a dumbass in Santa Cruz growing up, which full disclosure and clarity, I absolutely was. You had your moments. I did two right over the hill. But the people in Santa Cruz or in my social circle were the only ones that we're going to hear about that.

Right. You make a mistake now as somebody at that age. Worldwide, if it has to be. You could have a very viral video of some kind out there, which is inescapable for you because you have this device that connects you to. everybody on the face of the planet that is showing one of the worst decisions that you've ever made. There's some dots there that I still don't understand, but it's just not the same world. I don't know if I would have survived very well very well in the risk profile that my children are navigating their way through right now. I don't think I would either.

And it's good you bring this up. I was just talking with a bunch of family members and a bunch of other team guys that, you know, they have daughters and sons that are 20 and they're 18. They're in that same profile, actually, literally. That's where you're going to start walking into the valley of making bad choices. And as a parent, I just want to get my kids through that valley. Yeah, and not have it show up on Instagram or Facebook with Look what Dumbass did in a TikTok video. And there's a repeat and there's an edit and there's a cheesy song. And can you imagine, I mean, I feel like I was a pretty, well, with the knowledge I had,

being a nivist heck. But I was pretty stable where I wanted to be. And I was surrounded by good activity. but if one bad thing had gone sideways on social media, that scathing, you know, that self-consciousness and everything else and the bullying going on, and I've seen the effects with nieces and nephews and grandkids and kids of friends. It's inescapable and it's horrible.

And it's there forever. You know, it's a lot to bounce back from where I think we had it so much better growing up as kids. I call it being a dumbass in a vacuum. Yeah, dumbass in a vacuum, no cell phones. Which is what I was. I was just, thank God. Michael's known me for a while now. Just imagine me now, Michael, but I just did the same things, but I was younger.

Thankfully, there was no social media. Yeah, and I was thankful. Yeah. And Andy, when we were both kids, we're not that far apart in age. We didn't have the cell phone and quick text and quick photo, even before social media. I still remember my first cell phone. Flip one, I used my teeth, and I'd pull out the antenna. You'll never even remember this, Michael.

They used to sell cell phone plans with minutes. Yeah. I do remember that. My first one was a... You don't remember shit. You're 23 years old. Cell phones are like 25 years old. But you've at least heard about it.

Yeah, well, my first phone was a flip phone. I'm not talking about the flip phone. I'm talking about the plans that you would buy. Yeah, yeah. And you would not answer phone calls because you were running out of minutes, but your minutes could roll over. So you had to have a strategy for who you would talk to because you're banking these minutes.

It would be like 100 minutes per month or 300 minutes per month, and you would, the phone would give you alerts. And my mom would call. I'd be like, nope, not today. It's the 29th. I'll talk to you on the first. I'm saving these minutes. I'm done, man.

I did. I think I had a, you know, it's funny. It was so fucked. It was jacked, man. And the first cell phone I had, Annie, you'll remember this. Michael, you've, maybe you've seen this in the old school cell phones. But they literally look like a, you know, a Kirk era communicator. A communicator. Yeah.

They weren't a modern communicator from like Gen 5 Star Trek now. They were like old school 60, Spock, you know, doing this thing with the funny costumes. They might actually have been designed to look like that. They did. It wouldn't have been a bad idea, actually. The bottom flipped out. You had to pull that antenna out, like you said, with your teeth.

And I was on a mountain with mine, and I had 250 minutes a month. That's all I could afford is a poor. I was a brand new game warden in Riverside County, had no salary. I'm down there. And another game warden has his cell phone, his first.

And he's on a mountain top like 20 miles away. And he's like, dude, get your communicator out. Call me at 10. And we're doing Spotlighter Patrol, right? And it's like, what do you see? Dude, I'm talking to you on a cell phone.

This is crazy. I got to go and run out of minutes. Don't call me unless it's like, You need, you know. True story. Yeah. Your generation is soft, Michael. You have these unlimited plans.

Text. Oh, by the way, text was charged per text. Per text. Wow. Yeah. It wasn't crazy. I think it was like 15 cents per text. But just imagine going through your phone now, like a month worth of text messages.

Imagine what that bill would be. On top of 250 minutes. That's just over four hours of conversation. Think about how much you're on your phone. you would just stop answering or stop calling people. Yeah, that's all that's not a lot. You're welcome. Thank you.

We're basically, basically, John and I were explorers through space and time to get you in your generation where you are now. Yes. It's just an age thing, man. Yeah. It's maybe it's wisdom.

Maybe it's just, we got unlucky. We were on the electronic Mayflower. We landed at Plymouth Rock with our flip ones. That's it. He jumped off with our 250 minute plan. Yeah, I got a bonus for you, Michael. You're going to get 20 free texts in this plan.

They did roll over, though, like I said. So if you were smart, you could maybe month two, 300 minutes. Yeah. And though, I remember the caveat, they only rolled over for 12 months. So you could still. Come December. Right. Well, it would only, it would trim the January's minutes from the year prior.

So you couldn't bank like an unlimited amount. It would just slowly start carving off. Gosh, I forgot that part. You remember that plan, man. That was a big step. That was a big step. But I mean, imagine I couldn't even fathom having social media when I was in high school and junior high. What a pain in the ass.

Oh, I'd be in prison. Yeah, but the distractions, yeah. I'd be there too, right with you, man, without a doubt. And the cell phone's going off and back and forth and the distractions. And it's, you know, kids have a tough challenge now. And the kids that are excelling through it, and we both know a lot of them, and it sounds like your kids are doing great. And the kids in my family. They've all had their moments.

Yeah. I am not going to sit here and say that, one, I'm for, I'll start with this. I'm not a perfect parent. I'll start with that. I've made mistakes in every aspect of my life personally and professionally. I do the best that I can. I try to acknowledge my mistakes with my kids if I either say something or do something that is less than what I want to be as a parent. But all three of my children.

have presented, I think the valley that they go through of finding out who they are exploring on their own, on their own. And the hope of that is they come out of that a more well-developed human being that's going to navigate and integrate it to society. And I don't know how long that valley is and it changes. But I think a lot of the temptations are very similar, but it has expressed itself differently with all of my kids. So there's not one, just do this and your kids are going to be fine. Bullshit. Yeah.

Forget that. So my kids are, they are all finding their own way, but if I had to map it out, holy shit, John. It would look different for each of them. And my daughter, I would say,

is instill in the earliest part of that valley. My 18-year-old son, I swear he's trapped in. Would you agree? Michael, Tyler, was trapped in a 40-year-old's body. Yes, he's actually very mature for his age.

He is. Yeah. In some ways. I cannot get that motherfucker to not put his towel on the floor, though, after he takes a shower. There's just a couple of things. He's so smart and so focused otherwise.

Intellectually, that little bastard is he'll say some things that shock me. Wow. And then there's four toilet paper rolls on the floor of his bathroom at any given time. There's just enough kid to keep him a kid. You're like, okay, you are a kid still. Man, that's. And my 20-year-old had his own path as well. It's just the risk profile.

Again, going back to social media and even the devices that access. is so much closer. I've had very honest conversations about my kids and what they can get access to on... We'll use Snapchat. Sure. Straight up drug dealers. Yeah.

Meet you here. And you actually know where they are because you can see their little icon. Yeah. Whatever you want, whenever you want it. I don't even... I think I knew a guy in high school that sold weed. Yeah.

I knew two. And I knew his home phone number. Yeah. So if he wasn't there, Yeah. I don't know what the hell you do. You just, I guess, wait. Yeah.

But now with the chat, boom. Chat, boom. And it disappears and you can follow and just connect. And, you know, in talking with my kids, it's, you pull up in a car next to another car with somebody you don't really know. And you can get whatever you want and you don't really know where it comes from. And that's again, risk profile through the fucking roof. It is, man. It's, from when we were kids, it's scary as fuck.

It just is. And, you know, just with the family members, the needs. nephews that I have in my family, you have your kids and my teammates have kids and just hosted, you know, recently retired teammate and his three girls and his wife, you know, up here in Montana with the girls for the first time. And, you know, I was holding his oldest when she was two weeks old and seeing her as a young adult now, you know, 2021, going to college and seeing the social media in a positive way. I mean, they're really, really good kids. He's gotten really lucky. He's done, they've done a good job, you know, just everything's working out well so far.

but it's crazy to see how they see the world now compared to how you and I did. I mean, I remember when we were learning the ways of the woods, or if you were, you know, surfing or whatever you were doing in the ocean or whatever I was doing inland, it was a core group of people that you really connected with honestly and openly. You know, you learn viscerally with cold weather, cold water, late nights. You're talking about connection through actual experience, though? Exactly. Not connection through a device.

Through device. Yeah, exactly. real visceral experience. And my optic on the world at that time was limited by what I could physically see. I didn't really... I mean, obviously there was TV. Yeah.

I remember I did a computer class when I was a senior in high school and was on in 96. I was on the internet for the first time. Mm-hmm. I was looking at titties. I'm being going to be honest with you.

That's what I was doing in my computer class. I think we all found those when that first happened. What is a dude gonna do with the internet at the age of 18? Tits. Yeah. For all the parents out there.

just Michael's shaking his head over there for him. It would probably be more like shaft and balls, but whatever, Michael, I love you for who you are. Screenshot, screenshot, screenshot. Get off the internet. Screenshot, screenshot, screenshot. But other than that, my exposure to the world was super limited.

Yeah, I was same way. It's not the same anymore. It's not. It's not. I can't say that I would fully understand it because we're not in our kids' heads, but the risk factor that you're talking about, Andy, is spot on. It just as parents, as uncles, as grandparents, as mentors, as friends, we got to step up a little bit. You know, we have to get in their heads a little bit as much as we can, I think, and realize, okay, this is a different game.

How am I going to control this without being an ass about it and pushing them away into that other area? Like the Snapchat thing you mentioned for a drug dealer and how easy it is to get these substances and there's any, what, 10 plus given cool drugs running around any school? Flathead Valley, Libby, back in Silicon Valley when I frequent there, that's frightening. I had him show me. Yeah. And it's startling. Yeah, I'll bet. I'll bet.

And I'm glad that I have the relationship with them that I do, that they felt comfortable sharing that. Yeah. And I don't under any, like, pretences think that it's preventing them from exploring that because they have to walk through the valley. I'm just glad that I have an open enough dialogue with my kids on that topic that we can talk about it. That's huge. It's a huge, well, it's a tough balance. Yeah. I know people whose theory is,

I'm going to wrap my kids in bubble wrap and keep them from the world and they're never going to be exposed to this stuff. And I just am here to tell you from my own personal experience, good luck with that. It's not possible. I think, and again, I'm not an expert

and I have fucked up every aspect of parenting. I think the best path is preparation and education. Yeah, and open communication. To the best of your ability. They're not going to share with you everything. I had a great relationship with my parents, I didn't share with them everything. It shouldn't be the expectation that they do.

They need the room to discover who they are. Right. The challenge as a parent for me has been how can I be there and help them invisibly maybe to put up some boundaries which I recognize my parents did for me now

years later. Yeah. Oh. I see it now. So you did know what I was up to. My dad just laughs. Yeah. Yeah, we knew what you were up to. We put safety parameters in place, but I had to find my own way. Yeah.

Without that, I think you had a catastrophe coming. I think you're right. My mom knew everything. I thought I had the wool pull over eyes. I later learned, you know, shortly before her passing, we were laughing, telling stories and revealing stuff. And she's like laughing in pain. But in a good way, you know, it just goes crazy and going, man, how did I assume all that,

you know, and think she didn't know. Because we were idiots. We were idiots. Yeah, we had it all figured out. We had nothing figured out. And what I realized is how much stress they must have had, just holding their breath going, I can't get through that thick damn head of yours, dude. So it's horrible. I'm going to do what I do. I'm going to say what I say. I'm going to be here for that, you know, oh, crap moment. And I'm just going to let you go down that path. And, you know, in retrospect, I go, damn, I wish I had shared a little more. But hey, we learn. One of the hardest things. Mistakes made. Oh, for sure. Yeah. And the cast. And the cash. And the cash. And the cash. And the cash. And the. And the. And the. And the. And the. And the. And the. And the. And the. And the. And the. And the. And. And the. And. And. And. And. And. And. Captain of the Mistakeslum. One of the hardest things is recognizing an impending mistake with one of your kids. Yeah. And letting them make it. Ooh, that's...

It's a bastard. Yeah. The hardest learning lesson ever. You can see it. Yeah. Because they think they're Jason and... Jason Bourne and Juliette Borner. What would be a good name for a female?

Jason Bourne Michael? Jamie. Julia. Julia. Julia. Julie. We'll go... We'll get Michelle Bourne, which is Michael's new name.

Mm-hmm. Which is apparently what my son puts on his coffee at the coffee shop. So Jason and Michelle and Michelle Bourne, you think that's what you are. Yeah. But you're not. Right. You get through that phase. But it is like when you know, maybe you're not getting the whole truth.

Yeah. And you know they're leaving a few things out. You know they're crafting a plan that they think would fall right into the Jason or Michelle born category. Right. And it is so galactically stupid and obvious in front of you. Yeah. And you have a choice. You could.

Brace them? Yeah. Not so much. Yeah. Brace them up against the wall. Let him in on all the things that you know. Or have an open and honest conversation. Talk about choices.

Talk about consequence. And give them the freedom to become the person that they're going to become through the mistakes that they have to make. For sure. I'm not claiming to have the answer, but I can tell you that that is. difficult with kids. Yeah, especially with the wrist now. Yeah. You know, because you know a lot of it's getting hidden.

Well, it takes one mistake. Yeah. Yeah, it's too terminal, man. It's a one-stop shop. What did you change in your book for the second edition? So how does that work? You write a book, you're done, you're like, I've gotten it all figured out, and then you realize you need to add some more shit in there?

Well, sort of. That's a good way to put it. But yeah, there's some of that. And the other part was we just sold out of the first edition. So when the first edition sold out, we had to do a second printing. And it had been almost three years. And remember the first one dropped that you got a copy of. That was all before the shit show of pandemic, administration change, border control going out the door, the Title 42 nightmare.

So a lot changed and a lot escalated as far as problems. So we had to update it with a new edition. So I changed the introduction, brought everybody up to speed for three years of experiences through COVID, stuff we had done on the border. because what was interesting is I was getting a cartel perception of what we were dealing with in California on the weed front, knowing they were the same groups working all these other crimes we've talked about trafficking, child sex trafficking that's hot. There's a lot of, the Venn diagram of that is, yeah, there's a lot of overlap.

A ton of overlap, but I was only seeing it on the weed front in Cali. And now we're down in, you know, the Mexico, Texas border, and we're doing long-range hunting and talking about that in the pilot film for my fingering line film series for recoil. and we're literally, as we're hunting this 55,000-acre ranch, one of the most beautiful ranches. I did not know Texas had Canyonland country like that. I thought it was in little portions of the Grand Canyon

with a great outfitter group, Big Rim, and long-range shooters and ELR builders, the whole nine. And while we're down there doing this hunt and telling that conservation story, I knew we were on that unprotected border. And this was before the administration changed. This is when they were starting to enhance border protection down there. In fact, the wall construction was slated to go through that area, of Calendaria, Texas on the border, into that southwest corner.

And so I got to see firsthand what was happening down on the southern border during that filming and during that awesome hunt. And it was with Mark Hemsdahl, who's now retired cannabis enforcement captain, one of my handpicked snipers for the Met Unit, and there we are down there doing this show. And while we're off looking for Rams and talking about the ethics and how you justify long-range hunting or don't, and getting into that topic, which I want to talk to you about

because you and I have, we have very similar views on that and pick your brain a little bit with things, you know, you're with Christensen, I'm with all terror arms, but great, great topics you brought up and other sound bites. We'll get to that in a bit. While we're doing this hunt,

across the other side of the ranch, are 15 traffickers coming through with 100 pound bales of tainted weed, meth, fentanyl, and they're trafficking people. And they've got hideout caves all over this ranch, and we're finding them, and we're documenting them. And then as Border Patrol is trying to run down these guys on one side of the ranch,

while we're hunting another side of the ranch, we trip a sensor, and here you got these, and a camera, long-range camera, and here you got these guys in camo with long-range, you know, heavy-barreled guns sticking out of their packs, and now we're getting interdicted as traffickers, and here comes a Border Patrol airship, single pilot who just wrapped up a problem on the other side of the ranch, sees us on the side-by-side,

it's finally leaving this long hike we did for a busted harvest on a nice ram. And we meet. And he goes, dude, I've heard about you and your book. We love what's going on down there with the education. Thanks for keep putting the outreach out there. We can't talk about what's going on down here to the level it is. But little Alpine County right here, this sector, he started giving me figures, Andy, of the amount of fentanyl,

the amount of people, the amount of tainted weed, all the stuff that was being trafficked through this little tiny section. Why can't they talk about it? It's got to go through press. It's got to go through agency. It's got to go through whoever's screening that. Yeah, but they're not doing a good job of painting a picture. They're not.

The officers on the ground always want to paint that picture, obviously, because they're in there in the battle, right? We got to do that when we started met because I was encouraged as a lieutenant and team leader of that unit to do outreach, to educate growers when we were going to regulate and do presentations and do press, do documentaries, do news pieces where we bring some press people into these sites and really see what's going on. And then when we regulated with the politics of California,

that got cabashed and it had to go through a press information specialist up in headquarters under the governor. And what's going to get out is up to them at that point. Which is bullshit. It is complete bullshit. Because the information released is largely what they're going to make policy decisions based on. And if you, it's like building a house on a shit foundation.

Exactly. Nothing you put on top of that is going to do well. It might last for a little bit, but it's going to fall apart. Right. And I actually think that people, God, it's, I think the number one commodity in this day and time is people's attention. Yeah. And I get it. People are busy.

But I do think people care. But they are only able to care about the things that they are receiving information about. And I do believe that people, if they were able to be educated, and I don't know the mechanism on how to get an unbiased report on what exactly is going to. going on at the border because it's very interesting. I hate the division in the political aisle because one side of the aisle talks about the border in one way. And the other one talks about it in another. And from an objective observer, it's hard to determine that they're actually talking about the same thing. Exactly.

Yeah. It's as if they have their backs to each other. And they just paint two completely different pictures. I don't know how you can make effective policy based on, because in my experience in life, at least, When you get two stories, the answer and the truth lies in between the two. Yeah, somewhere in between. Yeah. Not, yeah, you're not getting it left right.

Maybe it's 80, 20, maybe it's 70, 30. Most of the time, you're like, oh, yeah, it's about 50-50. Yeah, yeah. But how can we make effective policy or make effective decisions when the appropriate information doesn't even see the light of day? I agree with the 100%. And I think when politics and policy that are implemented under politics, I'll take Prop 64 as an example in California. I think it's failed. I mean, you know, I'm preaching to the choir.

There's no surprise in that. We've logically articulated why it's not working when it could, if it was modified. But when that becomes the goal now and now you have to justify that policy, you're not going to want to see the truth necessarily of what's really coming across the border. You're not going to want to know about sarin gas and, you know, dogs being abused and barbed wire across her genitalias of these, you know, left over guard dogs left in a grow that were abandoned. and tortured because they weren't guarding the grow effectively.

I mean, we've seen all of these examples now. Is that a postage stamp of everything going on in those situations? Is it always that severe? No. But it's going on enough to know nobody wants that in the country. Nobody wants them on either side of the border. So. Well, the single data point is relevant to the degree that it's a single data point.

But when you start putting trends together, now we can make more informed decisions. Because you're going to have flyers on both. sides. You're going to have an edge case on both sides. Yeah. If you can start to tabulate and lay that data out, though, hey, here's the trend. Yeah. Over a week, over a month, over a year, over a decade, we need to make a course correction. Yeah. We have to look at take politics out of the realm of decision making. Good luck with that. Yeah. Do you have a strategy for that? Because I haven't figured that one out. I have not figured it out. That's kind of a rhetorical.

But to your point, no, that's the problem. And when we start guiding it by those decisions or we start guiding it by votes or whatever we think we need, public safety and environmental purity you're going to suffer. I mean, it's just cause and effect. And we're seeing that from direct results

of what's happening on the ground. So, and I don't sit hard left, hard right on anything. With border control, with cannabis regulation, any of these things, you know me enough to know. And I know you're very open-minded about it and we're very like-minded.

And I like having these discussions with you is because of that. But I'm all about, look, man, if it's going to pollute the environment and it's going to hurt the public, not just American public, but it's going to hurt the Mexican public on the south side of the border or anywhere else, it's probably something we should manipulate and change, you know,

because we're trending in a wrong direction. That's a good way to say it. We're trending, let's trend in the right direction. And then what we saw down there and what these Border Patrol officers are telling us, I'm like, okay, now I'm seeing the guys and I'm dealing with a grow in, say, Northern California or the Silicon Valley foothills, that came from that area

and his organization is doing those seven other polycrimes that we just don't see. It started to broaden my horizons a little bit. I mean, I knew it was going on. Same enemy, just different location, you know, harming all of America, not just California. And everyone's saying, you know, it's a weed thing you're doing. We get it, but it's been overplayed.

It's like, guys, go macro, man. Don't go micro. This is not just a cannabis story. This is the big picture for America. And people are starting to see that now. And I think, I agree with you. People do give a shit. They really do.

Americans, I'm seeing a lot of positives. I mean, with all the divisiveness we had through the shit show of lockdowns, you know, and I can tell you sitting down with people, and we haven't talked about this, but do you notice that if we get off social media and bashing each other in the media remotely through digital, you know, prompts and everything else? But I could sit with somebody that leaned so far left, and I don't lean so far left generally, I'm more middle of the road. And I say, you know what?

Let's sit in a deer stand. Let's hike into one of my holes. and let's just dead silence and let's have a whisper conversation of what we're going to experience. Nothing's off the table, no judgment, because no matter what I think about my opinion, because it's informed in my subject matter

that I specialize in, I'm one opinion. And your opinion, no matter where it's based, is worth a listen. And I'm going to listen. And I'm not going to judge. And I have noticed, I mean, even in our rock and roll band,

in Libby, you know, we are all different on political spectrum. completely different guys with all good-hearted good people. And I've noticed this unification because I won't engage in a political fight of a discussion. I'll listen. I won't weigh in. We'll have discussions. And I see there's more unity. We're all more like-minded than not. If we just give ourselves a minute to breathe and not get defensive on one thing that we saw that, you know, subbox news triggered or CNN or whatever. Well, social media is not designed to give you that minute. It's not happened. It's almost as if it rewards the velocity.

of your response, which overrides what I I do think that people care. I think that people are smarter than most give them credit for. And I also believe and this is a tough one because I integrate into the social

media world as well. And for whatever reason for the last few weeks, I've just been on it less. Yeah. But thinking about it more, not like thinking about being on social media, but thinking about the concept of social media, it it highlights oftentimes very negative things.

Very much so. And that is not the experience that I have had in my 45 years. Life has ups and downs. Right. But they're far more balanced than I think what is presented on a lot of social media. And then I'll put into that traditional media outlets as well, which I think just every single day put their foot directly into their mouth and try to get, again, it goes back to the commodity being people's attention.

Right. So what are people going to pay attention to? Catastrophies, for sure. But if your only outlet to the world and your only optic on the world is what you're seeing through those platforms, I think it's very flawed. Because I don't have experiences with people in person like I have seen happen and like I have had with people on social media. It's just not reflective of the real world. I agree. I agree 100%.

And social media I know in our world because of brands and education and business and everything you and I, do it. It's a part of it. We have to do it. It's kind of that necessary evil, but it doesn't, there's a certain lack of purity. There's not an intimacy to it, right? I mean, obviously, it's more business than any personal stuff for me. And it's a lot of time that we could be interacting with people, whether it's our kids, our family, our friends, hunting, you know, whatever, what we're here in Montana for, or what we're in different countries, different tastes, it doesn't matter. But I think you're 100% right. That has changed. And I think if we can just agree to disagree, we're going to be in a lot better place nationally. And I'm starting to see people

care more. And this particular cartel issue is an example on the just the public safety. Hey, we all agree this sucks. We don't want cartels in America. We don't want poison water. We don't want dead wildlife. We don't want, you know, fentanyl and smudge pots and all this crap killing our kids. So, you know what? What are we going to do to fight this? And, you know, wherever you sit on the border control issue, wall, no well, more protection down there, immigration screening, whatever the process is, what makes the most sense for the country and still being a humanitarian nation? Because we are, we're a melting pot. You know, nowhere in this argument do we say, oh, no, we got to stop border crossings, we got to stop immigration, absolutely not. I mean, anybody that can get here and be

part of America that wants to be here, God bless them. Man, we're lucky. We're so lucky to be Americans. There's a reason why people will literally risk everything to try to get to this country. And I say that fully acknowledging the deficiencies that exist in this country, of which there are many. But there are also so many things that are a beacon to everybody else in the world. And that is why people will risk it all to get here. Exactly. That's 100% true. And I think what we have and why it's so sought after, I think it's worth fighting for.

I mean, you dedicated your whole career. You risked your ass overseas. You did an amazing thing on the teams. I've had a whole career doing my part domestically, and I wouldn't change it. And anything I think we can do now on the outreach scale and educating people so we can maybe make that pin mightier in the sword,

you know, because honestly, I can't tell you how much more awareness has come to this issue since I did retire and I could speak freely. Yeah. You know, do I miss pushing a rifle with my guys and do an occasion? I'd love to be operational. I miss it.

I miss the team, I'm sure like you do with your guys. Everybody does, but everybody times out as well. It times out, yeah. And the longer I've gotten, now I've been out five years, and I miss the men, but I don't necessarily miss missions anymore. And when I was back in Siski County last year, going in behind guys I worked with on the sheriff's office, and we were doing on a media side. And they were really glad to have us there. And I was like, damn, man, I'm running crazy through another gross side, except this has hoop houses and it has Tyvex suits. And it's a little unique.

You know, I didn't see a lot of this, you know, on the outdoor trespass thing. And it was educational. But when we got out of that, I kind of went, whew. Wow, there was a lot of dangers out there. That was a crazy day. That could have went really sideways. You know, I mean, we had a much bigger elemental enemy force in the region than one gross site out in a remote area eight miles from nobody.

So, yeah, there is a time where it times out. You're spot on there. But the education aspect of it to help people make better decisions or more informed, better isn't a right word, I'm going to correct that. A more informed decision, I think is key. And I feel really lucky that we get to have this discussion. I'm really glad you're having it with me, Thank you.

I think you have to have both. The tactical response is one thing, but especially in the world that you came from. Without the outreach, without the education, you are pissing into the wind and wondering why you're getting wet. You have to have both. And I actually think that the tactical stuff

that your teams do is analogous to, you know, the cartoons where the dam starts having... So you can put your fingers in that. But what you guys are doing, guys and gals, are doing is building a better dam. Trying to. Well, you have to have both. You don't want to be drowned

or let the dam break. So you got to stop the, you know, you got to plug the holes, but also let's get some engineers in there and maybe figure out why it's structurally no longer sound. Yeah, that's a good analogy. And design a better dam.

Yeah, that's a killer analogy. And I think, you know, we're still healthy enough to keep doing it. We'll do it until the wheels fall off, you know, and just do our part. And I just hope for the sake of the country and our family and your kids and all of my family members and, you know, all of us,

that we can just make some positive steps and protect our home front a little bit more. And that's one of the things I did in the book. The new introduction covers a lot of ground. You know, it's kind of like two more chapters in there. And then our mutual friend Jack Carr wrote a new forward, which was awesome. He's really resonated with this issue being the conservationist. He is like you and I are.

Mike Ritland as well wrote an afterward note. I tuned up some chapters. We added photos. and we changed the cover design completely to take a cannabis leaf off because when we had a cannabis leaf on the book cover of the first one, some people would look at the cover and go, we're on drugs. This is an anti-cannabis book.

And as you know from the content knowing me, it's completely the opposite. You find out how, you know, how allied we are with legitimate cannabis, how we're fighting the cartels and all the can of people are like, dude, go earth warriors, stop these guys. That was the most inspiring part of the job, was a unity I felt, the love from legitimate cannabis, right?

That 20 years ago would have been like, what? This guy's on my property. It's handcuffs. Well, now it's hugs and handshakes. You know, it's not judgment because you didn't do anything wrong. You're entering into the light. You're trying to do it right. You're protecting your environment.

And we're not judging cannabis anymore. And that was a really, really good feeling where I felt like both sides came together. You know, and this was before COVID and everything. But those last six years of the career were inspiring that, yeah, people are good. people do want information. People do want to get along, especially in the smaller communities when we're a little more connected.

For sure. I mean, let me ask you this, brother. When you left California and you got up here, how long did it take you to kind of take that moment and slow down a little bit at a stop sign or in a store, talk to somebody, really get to know your neighbor, you get to know your ranchers,

you're getting to know, say, the ski mountain, whatever. And I can say for me and Libby, you know, going from the Silicon Valley to 3,000, people in the most remote part really of the state and going, wow, I got to slow the heck down, man. Yeah. I got to start to engage with my people. I got to let my mind stop and not be thinking about work.

And this is someone that really wants to talk to me. There's somebody that really cares. When they ask you how you're doing, what are you up to? They really give a shit. You know, they want to have that talk. You don't want to offend anybody. But how was it? That's a big change, man.

It was for me. I recognized the difference in pace immediately. Yeah. I would say it took six months to a year. year to adapt to that case. Instantly recognize it, though. Yeah. I tell people this, and I think I've said on the podcast before, I'm pretty sure there

are less people in Calispell than the subdivision I was living in in San Diego. Probably, yeah. And people think Calispell is this monstrous city, and it's not that big when you go to other urban centers anywhere in the nation, you know, for sure. It's growing, but it was, I don't think I could ever go back to a big city. I never really enjoyed, and I know some people thrive in New York City. Yeah. As an example, I've been a half dozen times now.

I'm not a fan of it at all. Like for me, not my jam. Some people could never leave that. I totally get it. But I don't understand, well, I guess I understand to the degree that people are going to do whatever they want. I totally get big city to small. The weird one would be the small city to the big. Yeah.

Yeah, that's a big jump. On New York, you know, what you say in New York? I'm interested in, I've been one time, and it was see the 9-11 Memorial and spend two days just in Lower Manhattan. It's a rough memorial. It did you go all day through the museum? I did everything. Yeah.

Yeah, we did everything. It was crazy. And two days so that if I got down to those fountains on the edge of Tower 1 and 2, and it was interesting, flying in the middle of one day, and it was a light rain. So it was almost abandoned. And until it closed at night, not leaving as that sunset and those lights, came up in a mist, every American should go, man.

I actually really do think that they should, and it should take your time in the building and the memorial itself. Yes, yeah. But standby, though. Yeah. That is an emotionally heavy place. Not only the viewing ponds or pools,

I think they're probably considered pools, but the actual museum itself, morgue, they're still, they're still identifying bodies. That I did not know. Downstairs on the bottom. Yeah. There's that room.

You go all the way to the bottom, and there's the room that everybody who died in that event. And just to the, I'm not going to guess, the cardinal direction. But we happened to have a... We were there because we went to New York after we did the Triple 7 and did some media. Okay. Yeah. So we had somebody from there and they're like, yep, behind this wall. So you just went because I was going to hitch up about the triple 7. Wow.

Nice. Yeah. But the Memorial Museum itself, it was three hours of just edge of tears. heart pounding, the radio calls, the voice smells that were left. Yeah, and all those floor by floor stage setup that you set down and you heard those calls coming

and they'd illuminate a certain part of the tower. And I don't know this, it resonates as powerfully and as emotionally as it did when it happened when I was there at the memorial. They did an amazing job. And I hope that our next generation and kids 40 years removed, et cetera, et cetera,

starting to go. And I know a lot of schools before I was retiring, a lot of our med operators, their kids were taking class trips to New York to do the memorial. I'm like, good, that's great. You know, see that as a, you know, a junior in high school today when it's, it just wasn't that close, you know, but. Well, they weren't even alive.

Yeah. They were not even alive. Yeah, it's just, it's that history piece. But that's what I went to New York for. And I'll go back to, but I don't think I'll hang out in New York for anything else but that. and the vibe in Lower Manhattan. I'm like, I agree. I'm not, I think we both share that sentiment.

Just don't do it. I'm not dissing them. But it's from growing up in the country and being in the woods and having that mental peace and, you know, that fresh air. It's not for everybody. I'm glad it's for us, which is cool.

Long range shooting. Yeah. What do you got? Well, you had a really cool sound bite now that you know, with Christensen. And you talked about it. You're going to have to remind me

because honestly, I don't pay attention to most of the shit, I say. Yeah. And this just came on, just random. came up like a couple weeks ago and I was going to ask you anyway like you know being a bow hunter and I shoot a bow I don't do a lot of bow hunting because they're injury here

and you talked about going to a rifle because you were injured and that long-range shooting or even using a rifle to inferred to the animal so you wanted to make a challenge which kudos on the conservation model of being a real hunter but it's changed a little bit rifle company backing you I'm also limited on time that's it yeah oh hunting is One of my absolute favorite thing. Go hunting trip coming up here in about three weeks. Nice. So I'll be going out opening day, which I think is September 1st.

We have going out with my business partner in the coffee shop. I think I have about a week and then I have some time off and then I'm going to go on a rifle hunt in Wyoming. Nice. Which, let me just tell you, hunting elk in the rut with a rifle, it sucks. Nobody should do it. Yeah. If you can bow hunt him.

Absolutely. Looley. Well, you got the year after we had it. And you sent me that text and just the video of that bugle charge. He's a big boy. And he said, I just looked at that bull in a dude. Oh, that was the one of, yeah, that I shot at three, like three. Oh, no, he came to three yards.

No. And I shot him at about 10. Yeah, he was like danger close. It was awesome. That was great. So I love that. And I've had great success bow hunting. But that is because of the people that I have the incredibly good hunting with.

Yeah. I don't want anybody to confuse the success that I have had bow hunting with actually my own skill or ability. The people that I have been so very lucky to get to know. By that, I'm talking about John Dudley and knock on archery. I mean, he completely took me under his wing. And I've just recently started hunting outside of his direct tutelage. Because people ask me, you know, how do you, you know, where'd you learn how to bugle?

How do you bugle? And I tell them, I look over to John and I say, please call the animals. Please bugle. Most closer to me. I'm hiding behind this tree because I can't make that noise. Yeah. I love it. It's super hard.

And I will bow hunt. But if I hunt, one, I love the activity. Two, I love being able to detach from a additional farming model, even though I know there's a spectrum again of stuff that would be considered unethical to the most. Like humming to animals and covering them in almond milk, whatever the fuck they would want to do. Yeah, yeah. You know, bathing them in a shit. I assume Michael does at nighttime with his, he has pet pigs, but... Good taste.

Yeah. Good taste. But when I run out of time, because I'm eating what I kill, I'm going to grab a rifle if I have to. And I don't have any issue with doing that. And some people are like, oh, it's cheating this out of the other. And trust me, I do believe that ground, it's not the fairest thing for the ammo. Right. But it's probably the most ethical way to get it on the ground.

Yeah, if you're making a good shot, ethical and clean. I liked when you said that perspective, and I get the question all the time, you're like, okay, you've been a game warden for 30 years, so you've seen bad shots, pictures, you've seen father, daughter, exemplary, and you hunt yourself, and you hunt all over the place, and it's, you know, a way of life, it's just a tree. What do you think of, you know, should it all be archery, rifle, muzzleloader? How about these long-range guys that are doing a binary question?

Why does it have to be any of those things? Thank you. Thank you, Andy. That's exactly what I was getting at. I'm like, guys, listen, every time we have somebody in the conservation model doing a humane shot, if it's a guy that's doing it at 1,000 yards, because that's what he's doing and he's making the shot. Not injuring the animal. He's not just to have the super...

But he has a skill set. He's practiced. Maybe he couldn't get closer, because I have, you know, tell a story about how... Sometimes terrain doesn't let you get closer. Thank you. And that's exactly the case I have, because when I went into that, the whole long-range question was, on snipers, we would train out to 1,000. and our little gas guns were more DMO guns for MET stuff,

and we'd shoot to 600, train to 1,000. And then Altera rifles, I'd join up with a great crew there, and I get a 300 PRC, and this gun's going to go to 15 plus. You know, it's a super 30 caliber. I'm like, okay, I didn't have this in snipers, but I'm going to try this out. And it's all that, you know, like Christensen, it's just built well, buy once, cry once,

quarter MOA stuff that's at 100. Which, for clarity, most people cannot shoot anywhere near that. Nope. The number of 10 minute of angle shooters that I've listened bitch about a angle gun. Yeah. Yeah. Is it, I just laugh.

Yeah, I do too. You're missing the forest for the trees. Yeah. It's like, guys, that's perfect condition. If I can do half that or double that, I'm having a great day. But now I've got this rifle and now we're talking about, okay, we're going to go on this ram hunt. And I remember doing that ram hunt before we film an episode down there for Thin Green Line. And the issue was, now that I'm equipped with Altera, it's probably going to

to be a long shot because a year before I went down and I had a six five creed more by Cooper built out of Stevensville right my first custom rifle I thought hey I've never shot an animal past 402 yards in 40 years and most of those shot guards with a rifle because I believe hey I will get as close as I can sporting wise and make it a real experience and really stock that animal and be fair I can go to 2000 but I shoot them at 30 a bow distance that I did my part but you You're right, man. Sometimes there's these terrain gaps where... Or an animal surprises you.

Like, the number of animals I've killed inside of 100 yards... Yeah. Is not because I was trying to get inside of 100 yards? He popped. They surprised the fuck out of me. Yeah, me too. I was like, whoa, where'd you come from? Yeah.

Do I still have it? I'm not going to not take that opportunity. Yeah. I'm the same way, man. And I was... But I was adam and I'm like, hey, you guys have a great ranch. You're great outfitters. I want to get to know you.

I want to... I got a Creedmoor. It's good to 400. I know we can get... within 400 of a mature ram. And Bob Doherty that goes, you don't know our terrain, bud. I know you hunt Montana and all over the west and other countries, blah, blah, blah, but go ahead and bring it, but just we all have long-range rifles. My son builds him, son-in-law, blah, blah, blah. So I go up there

there and sure enough we see that ram, and he's bedded at six, and he's a cover. Like, oh man, there's two big coolies between us. There's thermals going his way. A lion had chased him or something because he's freaking out in his bed and I, man, that is the ram. That's right his age, eight, nine years old, end of his life. Not only is a big mature ram, which we all like, but he's at where we should take him.

He's done his breeding. He's going to make it another year. And I put the Creedmoor down and go, yeah, that's not going to work. So my has a 300 rum, Remington Ultramag, good past 1,000, and he goes, look, I know you can shoot. That ram's going to get up,

and he's going to get out of that lion, whatever he's doing, that wind phase. And he's going to stop, and if he's in range, you need to take him, I'm like, dude, he's at six now. All right? Rams aren't that big for people listening to it. It's like a large golden retriever.

So Andy, he gets up and starts leading this pack, and he stops at 915 yards up on this mountaintop. Michael goes, you're good, wind's not an issue, do your fundamentals use my right about this rifle. I went, dude, I don't want to shoot your rifle doing this. I haven't trained with it. I'm going back to everything we did operationally. He goes, you'll make the shot the wind.

is nothing and I quartered him up. I pressed. He rolled. It was done. I'm like, I cannot believe I just brought down an animal at 915 yards cleanly. Trust of the outfit or fired. That was a long distance even in training. That's a good, you know, but 308s, forget it before we go to the 300 windmags, you know, like you guys had on the teams. But then it made me kind of open my eyes a little bit more to the long range hunting thing and say, okay, if that's the only shot you have and the condition, excuse me, and you can pull it off, I see the reason to do it. But if I have your background. Exactly.

Most people, their enthusiasm outstrips their capability very rapidly. True story. And one of the hardest things to realize is tell for me as well is when to not shoot. I would rather let an animal go than wounded. Every time. Yeah. Yeah. Because the handful of a.

and wounded. It sucks. It's one of the worst feelings. Yeah. Yeah. It sucks. I mean, the ethics, you know, I feel it internally, deeply, and you're right. It sucks.

It's going to happen. Weird animals are tough. Weird things happen. But that open my eyes to say, and we go into that in that film, we said, look, guys, it can be done. And then what happened was a year later, we come back, Mark Imzdaal, my now retired snipers. We're on that hunt. I've got the Altara 300. He's shooting Michael's rum.

because we see two bulls or two rams full right with each other at like 710 and there is a abyss and a river and there they are and like oh here's that situation we can't get closer they're gonna bust out wind's going toward them and we got them both down with good rifles with good skill sets with practice we didn't have heavy wind we weren't going to push it or we would have passed up on them yeah and that's what i was able to say in the film and i think when long range hunters get that especially the extreme long-range shooters start to get that moniker, that stigma. If they go into it with that mindset,

I think it's because we keep everybody that's a conservationist being conservationist because we need all of us, right? And I like what you said, dude, who cares? Just do it fair, do it ethical. And that was a real eye-opener. And then the cool thing was, and I know you've shot stuff really far, you know,

in your career, but I had never shot past 1,000, going into these hunts. And now Walker Doherty, who's an extreme ELR, extreme long-range shooter building like 338 shait tax that are still actually carryable they're not super heavy but we start shooting plates at 2000 2300 it's blown away by how much that game changed versus shooting at a thousand how quick the corrections had to be made you know with barrels heating changing down there and yeah it's it's pretty mind-blowing it's just math and physics really yeah and understanding it all and making it all happen but that far no yeah that's just that's outer limits at least in my opinion, but I just... I would advocate for most people, bow and rifle,

whatever you feel the absolute longest distance you're comfortable shooting at, let's say it's a thousand yard for a rifle and a hundred yard for a bow hunter. I would cut it... Yeah. And that is actually... You could probably...

I would almost say two-thirds for most people. You could spend all day on a flat range. Yeah. Drill and steel when an actual animal comes out there. It's a whole different game. And you've got a limited window because maybe they're walking in between a concealment window where you have limited time

and you're not super sure which direction the wind is blowing. Are you shifting directions ballistically as your round would have to get there? Yeah. I can tell you from somebody who's wounded animal me save you the pain of doing that. Yeah.

If you don't feel 100% comfortable and if you think it's at the far end of it, consider not pulling the trigger. Yeah, get closer or look for another animal. Yeah, that's, That's why they call it hunting, not killing. Yeah. It's not a guarantee.

Yeah. You didn't get a killing license. Yeah. That's not a kill tag. That's not a hunting tag. It sucks. The last time I went bow hunting, it was actually with the Duddly,

and I hit my bowl maybe a half an inch too far to the right, directly into the shoulder. Half an inch to the left. So, yeah. Straight into the lungs. And the thing. And I watched it go off. And I marked it on on.

Went into the trees and we gave a time and went around. And I found a drop of blood where we started looking for it. Yeah. Spooked him one time, never saw the damn thing again. I spent days looking for that animal. You're just gutted. Yeah.

You're just gutted. Yeah. And that was a half an inch off. I think my shot was 45 yards. It shows you how, how unprecise this whole sport is. How many variables come into it, you know. And also how tough the animals are as well. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's one thing, you know, when you look at the toughness of humans that we're in battle with versus animals. They're not tough. We're a bag of pussies. We're technology. That's it. I look at a white-tailed deer, man, these big timber bucks up in the deep, deep forest, and look at these beasts and I'm just nothing but respect.

It's like, good gosh. Their instincts are on point, too. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah, when we clear, I'll have to show you some trail cam stuff, but that I'm working. But what are you shooting on the rifle side, caliber and what your preference? I've been messing around with 300 PR. as well.

It's my favorite. Having said that, totally and completely biased because I have a lot of experience with it. Yeah, for sure. And the 300% damn near the same thing. It really is. I think I found the rounds I'm shooting maybe like 15 feet per second. It's not maybe gets you a little bit farther. So I've been messing around with that.

Nice. And Christensen made me one last year that came in the subalpine wrap. Nice. Okay. It's awesome. I mean, if you're, if you're going to suck, hunting, at least fucking look good. It's rule number one.

Yeah, it blends it trans. Whether or not your... Just look... The point. So I'm just fully matching. I've got my gloves on that are sub-outies. It's not a big deal. I can't see my trigger.

What is going on, man? So I've been messing with that. Yeah. Nice. And I actually went and got a... I'm trying to think of what it is. Not a traditional chrono. It's actually like a radar chrono.

You do a labrator? Yeah. Yeah, I'm running that too. I made that change. I want to get an... Well, one, I'm always hunting with a can on the guy, which changes the, you know, velocity a little bit. Yeah. So I wanted it absolutely precise as opposed to just looking at the number on the side of a box.

Yeah. And I have a biblistically compensating range finder that spits out all of the correction for windage, which is what I prefer. I don't like dialing wind. I like to hold wind as well for all the right reasons. Yeah, that's cool. Because I'm a retard and we'll leave it in there. Yeah. I don't know why I just missed three feet to the left.

Yeah, I just clicked. I didn't click back. What am I doing, man? It's for a five-second shot. Yeah. A whole wind. And oftentimes, actually, I hold elevation, too, depending on how much time I have. But just kind of messing around with it.

I played around with the 6-5 Creed more for the last few years as well, only because people asked me a ton about it and I never shot it. Yeah. So I found it to be an effective round that is limited to any other round is. Yeah. Yeah. I find it a nice intermediate round for deer-sized stuff. If you're going to punch steel and detachable stuff, great.

I've killed elk with it, too. Yeah. Bonded bullet for sure. Well, accuracy is final. You know, you have to be able to put the round on target. But again, the first Elkai killed with the 65 Kremor, it was a cow at 55 yards. Yeah, exactly. Because we were coming up hunting, and we saw a herd coming over a fence, and there was a little terrain off to the right-hand side, and they were kind of going from low, and then coming over the top of that, so we just went off running to the right, identified an area where they were going to pass through.

Right, right. Diled for it, popped it, you know, dropped the magnification all the way back off, and just kind of. cut on the knee was so the cow came in front. I mean, I could have slapped the trigger as hard as I wanted to. I mean, the cry. All I could see through the optic all the way backed out was just fur. I'm like, I think I'm pretty good here. You could smash it.

You're going to get the plate. Yeah, yeah. And there was, you know, there was lung tissue on the ground within five yards of the and we found, and it actually ran downhill and kind of tumbled a little bit. But I've put a bull elk down with six five. I put a cow elk down with six. Not crazy distance. I mean, I like that round, but I don't personally.

Trust it at beyond maybe three to 400 yards? Yeah, I would, I would size animal. I'm the same way. I mean, now that now that I'm, excuse me, work in the PRC, the 300, I think that got some ass. It's got some ass. I mean, it's got thousand yard foot pound ass with accuracy. It doesn't kick the heck out of you and, you know, running a 200 green acubon and the ballistics are everything now that we're doing applied ballistics because at the, you know, early sniper days, we didn't have that going. Yeah. We're doing straight old school dope, you know, getting our drops, figuring out to two, you know, I go in and train it in a logbook and then remembering, oh, I'm at 11,000 feet, you know, above loan pine today. And that thing's going to travel. It's going to run flat. Spend the money on the rangefinder that computes it for you. I literally have one that it, yeah, I don't even know the model. Otherwise, I put it out about it years ago.

It's discontinued. But it source five rifle profiles. It sniffs barometric pressure, altitude, angle, and just spit you put in bare length, muzzle velocity, hide over bore for your optic. I think there's a couple other measurements. It's just, you just put it in there, put it on M-O-A. It's good to go. 14.5, but just crack that thing off.

Yeah, I don't have the integrated range finder, but a good solid LICA, then with ballistics applied with a 5,700 elite Kestrel. Yep. And all my gun profiles are in there. It's tiny. I mean, that thing changed the game. And it was some guys from you from Dev grew

that Terry Hewen actually tuned me on to that because he's an, we were both, you know, teamed up with Altera for our starter rifles, both have three interpercs, and Terry's like, you using this yet? I'm like, no, I just have wind meters. I got my guys. You know, he's like,

you got to get a gun profile. Get a profile for this gun. And I, you know, Labrador became the thing we used. And you're right, they're great. And I don't like... You don't have to shoot through screens and have all these wires, man. You can have it right there for doing your solo thing. It's a smart deal. But that ballistics that applied... Bill and the cast will change the game. They really did.

And it made it more fun. I think my 300 PRC, it took me a while to find around that that rifle really liked, but it ended up being a hornity, 212 grain. That's what it liked. It's what it liked. It just performed really well with that round. I think it had a good mix.

The right amount of pressure wasn't over-pressuring the can, and it just eats. Yeah. Mine's weird. We developed a load with Alter that's a 200-grain acubon. It's not the long-range bullet. It's the standard. Nossler, Andy. It is a laser beam.

Very consistent. Good to 1100. day long and now doing a lot of working I got to have a you know non-led so finding that copper round to shoot really well at long range and even alter is like we hate copper for doing that man get the ballistics and get it to work with those longer bullets but hammer bullets right out of here you know the calispell area they're amazing yeah if you have the right one 99 a hammer hunter they call it looks like a persian missile it's about as long as my index finger but for the 300 PRC with the right we're getting ridiculous accuracy

and all our California hunters are buying those guns. So I'm working with that load now, but plenty of energy for anything we're going to do elk-wise and I mean, the coyote, if I happen to have that in the truck and there's coyotes harassing cattle

in Cali and I'm on one of the ranches. I'm supposed to be looking a half-hound out on. Pierscy does great. I will absolutely shoot a coyote with a 300-1 mag. I would shoot a pheasant with a 300-wem egg. No one will ever say a gun. I have shot a turkey with one. Have you?

Yeah. I hate having too much gun on turkeys. What's with that? My wife, my wife's like, we're gonna have neck meat. No, she said, you know, I don't care if you shoot it, but we got to, we have to when, when you're done. Yeah. No problem. Yeah. We walk up to it. Where is it? No, it's all, it's all right here. The rest of it's just like been vaporized. I have a wing. I have part of a, yeah, I have, yeah, kind of some neck meat. It was the gun that I had in my hand. I hate turkeys because they're fucking assholes. Yeah. Dinosaurs. Yeah, I like the long range game. People hit me up all the time.

What guns should I buy? What round? And it's an impossible question to answer. I get the same question. It's impossible. And it's like you have to get in with dialogue like, okay, where do you hunt? What do you hunt? I can give you my experience from growing up with starting with a 243, then a 270,

and I can tell you about these new Wisbonne calibers, but what are you for? What's your budget? It's a long conversation, to be fair to it. And a lot of people are asking that, you know? Yeah. And you have to be open to the fact that. responds well to every type of ammo. So you have to take the time on a flat range before hunting season

to get to know your gear. Well, first of, that's just an ethical way to approach hunting season as it is. Spend some time being current and competent. Otherwise, you do what you want to do as an adult, but you're setting yourself up for failure if you don't take the time on the pre, the post may not be. You have...

And I mean, I know you've seen this, and I'm sure you get these questions, but factory ammo's got... exponentially better. Yeah. Where you can get stuff that'll match any good handwood what I'm building myself.

And the economics of it are real. I mean, if you want to spend crazy money for hand-loaded ammunition by all means, I shot some hand-loaded stuff for that 300 PRC and played with some off-the-shelf. 2-12.

Does it out of the box. It does it out of the box. And it's not to say that the hand-load stuff wasn't spectacular. This particular rifle didn't enjoy it as much. Yeah. Yeah. And I love hand-loading bud, but I have less and less time to do it.

So I'll load just for the Al-Tarras to keep those because they are long-range guns. But time is everything. You know, we don't get enough time to get out there and hunt. We're doing a lot of this stuff. So the more time we can... Indeed. Speaking of time, we've got to get you back to your wife. What do you want to close it out with?

Well, this book's for you. We're in here to plug it. But you have a copy of the first edition. First, second edition? Yeah, that's the first second edition. And you're in the acknowledgments. Awesome. So, yeah, I can't thank you enough from starting this hub when that book first dropped.

And then I got you one of our last run of the Trailblazer V-knife's signature folding blade. It's a thin green line folder. This is kind of the folding blade I got to design with Mike Velicamp to make it. Oh, sweet. This one is partially serrated with a drop point. It's got the thin glass breaker. Oh, yeah. The harness cutter.

Yep. All that good stuff. but I do have non-serrated as well. And it's got a lanyard that you can pound stuff with or loop. But one of the last ones I just wanted to say thanks. Awesome, man. I know you're a blade guy too, and it's just been so good having your support and getting to know you. I don't know if I'm a blade guy.

What I'll tell you is I'll cut myself with this thing pretty soon, because I've cut myself with every knife I've ever had. What I'll do is I'll give it to Michelle, and he can play with it, and he'll cut himself too. Hell yeah. Be careful, brother. It's a very short. I'll be careful.

Mike Velocamp can put a good edge on it. But yeah, man. Enjoy it all and just thank you. Awesome. Good to talk, good to catch up. And we have some more hunting stuff to catch up on. Oh, for sure. Off microphone.

Indeed. Yeah. None of you fuckers are coming to our honey holes.