Cleared Hot - Powered By BRCC - The Weight of the Navy Cross | Nick Jones | Ep. 467

Episode Date: August 31, 2026

Nick Jones enlisted in the Marine Corps at 18 out of Olathe, Kansas. Mortarman, then scout sniper platoon, then selection and 2nd Marine Raider Battalion, where he came up through element member to element leader. Twelve years, five deployments. On March 8, 2020, his team went into the Qarachogh Mountains in northern Iraq to clear a cave complex and lost their team leader and their team chief. He was shot going back for them and kept fighting until he was pulled off the mountain. Six surgeries and eighteen months later he medically retired as a staff sergeant with a Navy Cross and a Purple Heart. He now runs the Talons Reach Foundation. In 2019 he built a mountain warfare training package for his team in Montana. It got denied. The reason given was that they wouldn't be fighting in the mountains. Ten months later they were. He proposed on top of Lone Peak and told his wife they'd build a family in Montana in ten years. They got there in one. Five years later she broke down on the drive back from Jackson and told him she had no life there. That conversation moved everybody to Wyoming. Talons Reach Foundation: https://www.talonsreachfoundation.org/   Join the Cleared Hot Newsletter: https://www.clearedhotpodcast.com Take the Operator Code Assessment: https://www.theoperatorcode.com   Today's Sponsors:  Black Rifle Coffee:  https://www.blackriflecoffee.com Hexclad:  For a limited time only, our listeners get 10% off your order with our exclusive link. Just head to https://www.hexclad.com/clearedhot

Okay, got the red smoke. So the smoke, I'm looking at danger close now. Michael just informed us that he's quitting. No. It was a really long runway, though. Yeah, I gave you a super long run. Like January. He is going to go back to school and pursue his own life, which I deeply and fully support.

However, we need to do a Friday episode. We should probably do that tomorrow after class. Obviously, we'll open discussing that. Of course. Do you see the picture that I put? posted that somebody made with AI of you crawling towards the bell and buds? No. It's pretty good.

No, that's really funny, though. It's really funny. I don't know what AI is for, but I want it to be mostly for that. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you used to be a Montana resident.

I did. How did you find your way to Montana? Fantasized about Montana for a long time. When I was in Marsock, I put together this whole training package, me and the team. We wanted to come out here and try. train in like Helena area. There's the Fort Harrison. Then they got the limestone hills training area. And then I contacted somebody in Butte, actually. They had this like awesome mountain warfare stuff. So anyways, put together this really cool package, submitted it up to hire. And they denied us.

And they said, this was in 2019. And they said, hey, you're not going to be fighting in the mountains. You don't need to go do this mountain warfare training. I was like, but we're deploying to either Afghanistan or Iraq again. I'm pretty sure there's mountains in both areas that we're in. Also, how did they know you're not going to be fighting in the mountains? Well, this, it comes back into play because sure is shit, January 2020, we get deployed to northern Iraq. Yeah. And then March 8th, 2020, get in the big gunfight and it was in the middle of a mountain range. And so I was a very arrogant element leader and was like, hey, could have used that training. That is a true statement. I mean, it wouldn't have hurt. Right. Yeah. But so fantasized about it for a long

time. They denied the package. So I brought my wife out instead and we spent 10 days in Bozeman. She was my girlfriend at the time, proposed for on top of Lone Peak down there in Big Sky and said, hey, in 10 years when I retire, I think this is where we should make a family. So everything happened and we sped it up about nine, eight years, eight, nine years. Yeah, so it was, yeah, we bought, like, right before COVID made everything super, super expensive. So we got in the market at a really good time in Bozeman and then moved into three forks, stayed in Montana for almost five years and then wound up down in Wyoming. What made you guys start looking outside of Montana, looking more at Wyoming?

We weren't looking. It's hilarious. We just bought this place in three forks, 10 acres, beautiful home, built our, like, our dream gym in the basement. Like, that was my wife's thing. Like, I need my gym. We had this sauna and it was, it was so cool. And then we were doing this golf tournament for the nonprofit that I run, Talons Reach, down in Jackson. This was our second year going down there. Super successful. And when we were there, I remember the day before. I think I was training for an iron man, a half iron man up in Corderlane and was riding through the town. I was like, I could never live here. Too many tourists don't like it. Told my wife that like there's no way we would live here. Well, on the drive home, she starts breaking down. I was like, I don't like Montana.

I don't have friends. I don't have a community there. Like we're now 40 minutes from Bozeman and I don't have what I like. And she's like, I want to move to Jackson. I was like, no way. Did she have friends and family there? So we fell into a really amazing, really tight-knit community there. But they, like, would travel to Bozeman every now and then.

I'm like, well, we'll see them. She's like, no, but it's not the same. And so. That's a tough spot to be in as a husband. Yeah. And we've got a shield before in September, four-year-old daughter. And then I look at her. And I'm like, well, we're home every night.

We have no friends there. Everybody's 10 to 20 acres apart, which was my dream. but as a man, I can do that. I'm killing gophers and doing the stuff that I like to do. And but then I'm looking at them. I'm like, well, you're right. Like she doesn't have friends. Now she's like, she knows every.

My daughter knows more people in town than I do. It's insane. She'll be like, that's so-and-so's dad. That's so-and-so. I'm like, that's now it makes me, the whole family is complete now and it feels great. Okay. That's good. Yeah.

It's just very expensive. When you say Jackson, you mean Jackson Hole? Yes. is it, I was going to say, as expensive as you hear. Ridiculous. Well, hopefully the timing pre-COVID into Bozeman help with that a little bit. It did, yeah. So, yeah, and that, like, helps us out, man.

Like, we would not be in the position that we're in right now to be able to even buy. So we just closed on a house. And, yeah, it's pretty wild. We were almost about to fall into the same pattern we did in Bozeman, where we moved 40 minutes outside of town. to get like my dream more land, bigger house, something like that. But we're like, no, like let's sacrifice. Maybe it's a stepping stone and we'll get it in the market. Yeah.

Buy this house. We'll build the family out and then see where we go from there. The 40 minutes out of town, I know what you're talking about. The only thing better than 20 acres separating your neighbor is 200. Yeah. Or 2,000. Yeah. But the 40 minutes out of town,

dream sucks when you forget butter at the grocery store. Right. Yes. Or, you know what I mean? You have to do one little thing. Yeah. You can't skip it and you really don't want to do 80 minutes round trip. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I can get that. Man, had you not found that community in Jackson,

how long do you think your wife would have just stuffed it down? The unhappiness? I don't know. I think it was building faster than I I could like actually see. I was kind of blinded by fast-paced life and doing things I like to do. Yes. And then it hit and I was like, oh, it's been here for a while

and I didn't really see it. Sounds like a real fun car ride. Yeah, yeah. It was interesting. Some road miles, some windshield time, if you will, to think about things. Yes. We hadn't even been in that house

seven months, eight months by that point where she brought that up. So I was like, wow, we're going to lose, hardcore on it, but we actually somehow came out on top because we finished, finished the basement, remodeled everything. Yeah. Yeah.

So what do you do now? I know we'll get in obviously into the nonprofit. What are you doing professionally? How do you spend your time these days? Yeah. So that was actually by the, I don't know, grace of God, you could say. When after my wife hit me with that, she, I was like, okay, we'll thank heavily on it. I got a phone call from one of our supporters.

for the foundation, and he said, hey, there's this Jacksonal shooting experience that's coming up for sale. Business opportunities, like, I think you should look into it. It's a cool thing. And I was like, dude, I don't know how I can barely even keep my head above water running this nonprofit. I don't know how I'm going to buy a business and run a business. He's like, just talk to some mentors that you got down there because I got a really good mentor and basically father figure down there that took me in and my wife in and I called him and I told him about he's like do it he's like don't even don't even like worry about you know how he's like like we'll help you however like just do it and figure it out afterwards he's like that he's because you know so I I'm not much of a reader I was in the

Marine Corps I had a very hard time reading easy enough crayon jokes as there is yeah make them yourself so let the rest of us make it So I listen to audiobooks and I've downloaded your book and, which it's amazing, by the way. I don't recommend books from Seals hardly ever. Nor do I. Don't. You share that in common? Yeah.

There's not that many of them. So it's like which one do you choose for? There's only like three. Right. Per week. Yes. Per week. Yeah.

And so I was like, I've actually, I've recommended it to several buddies, especially entrepreneurs and guys in the lifestyle, in the trenches, like trying to build stuff. because what you said in there, like that one of the hardest parts is taking that first step. But even after that first step is like kind of completing that step. And so he was like, just step into it and you will start running. And sure shit, like went through the due diligence and was like, this is a really cool opportunity. Never had a for-profit business. I've never been to business school.

Don't know anything really about doing that stuff. So I just said, screw it. I'm going to, I'm going to try it. So I, we bought the company. And we've owned it since January. And now it's like, it's a very seasonal thing. Like Jackson Hole gets very busy. But it's insane how many tourists want to come do this.

It's a high ticket price. I'm assuming, I mean, Jackson Hole, I have never been that I know of. Yeah. Pass through. Today's episode of the podcast is brought to you by Black Rifle Coffee. Guess what time it is. It's false. Do you know what that means?

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three forks you get your fishing rafting yeah outdoor and then very sloppy intermediate systems where it's just raining. It's mainly the park, Grand Teton National Park and Yellowstone National Park. Like that is the main thing in the summer that brings people in. You would think that it would be busier in the winter because Jacksonville Mountain Resorts right there. But it's very clear how busy it gets in the summer. I mean, people, the prices get jacked up, like astronomically, it's insane. So they had warned me.

June 5th, once June 15th hits, you're not going to breathe until September. And, I mean, it's been very busy. So it's great to make your yearly in that time period, though? Pretty much. Okay. Yeah. And it is. And so we, we've got instructors.

They're very seasonal, but they, like, they need a living then. So they're like, they're cranking it out. I mean, we were slammed. Which made me feel better because, like, the buildup, you know, April and May were, almost like nothing. And I'm like, holy crap. I don't know if this was the right decision. I'm second guessing everything. And then it started kicking off. I was like, all right, this is cool. And now if I can plug in and figure out how to grow the slower months and get the skiers out there when they're sore or something like that, then we'll build, build revenue all year round. So what does it offer?

The summer month people, when they can get the full experience, what are they coming for? It's a, so our main like bread and butter is this three hour shooting experience. We call it our multi-gun experience. So I set up, just built this gun wall, like kind of, I mean, not like this, but there's like slat walls and there's all sorts of guns hanging on there. And we've got this systematic approach for the three hours that we have. We basically start with, start with a safety brief. And then we start into 22 rifles, get people comfortable shooting those, then maybe move to 22

pistols and then like kind of just mix and match until we get all the way up to shooting out to 600 yards with precision rifles. Hell you. And then we've got these dessert menu items. We've got a Barrett 50 Cal. We've got like the foliatos and stuff. Yeah. Dude, and people eat it up.

It's so cool. Like you get these New Yorkers or people from Chicago never touched a gun, barely ever seen a gun or from California. And they're like, this is the cool. A lot of international people. Yeah. Like it's really cool, honestly. for them very lucrative yeah very lucrative uh business idea honestly i love it i hope you guys are

wildly successful it's funny thanks it's funny to depending on what trajectory your life has taken you can be so become so accustomed to being around that stuff that you can't fathom how people would like you in your off time you went and paid to shoot a bear at 50 cal right like i would pay you did not have to look that thing around carry it you were shooting full auto like oh you like picking up brass that much. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, it's just, I mean, the optic is a different, like I said, where you came from. Man, yeah, the seasonal business is tough. Yeah. Right. The coffee shop, the, the beauty is coffee is coffee. We sell a difference in hot or cold, depending on the season. And we have far less people coming into the shop in the winter. It's just

the holding capacity of town. But yeah, we have probably a, I'll say three. at the beginning, it's a slow on-ramp and a slow off-ramp. So in that three to four months, it peaks somewhere in the middle. But it's kind of the same thing. You got to, what's the saying, you make hay while the sun's out? Yeah. You do the best you can, man. Yeah. How'd you find your mentor? Um, so he started out as this. He hates when I say this stuff. But so he owns some restaurants in Bozeman and in Jackson Hole. He was a Marine, I was telling you, on the way, walk over here, F4, Rio. And then he built a restaurant back in the 80s and started with one and just continue to progress up and commercial real estate and yada, yada, yada. Well, when I got to

Bozeman, I was in a super bad place. I tried to go out to community events to meet people, but I was also trying to build this nonprofit. So I knew that I had too and they were like you got to meet this guy Joe Rice like he he's a marine veteran he loves supporting Marines or any veterans in general and I was like no man like he's not going to want anything to do with me and I would doubt myself all the time and then finally like somebody was I needed a sponsor for this the gala that we were running and I was like I'll try to set up a meeting with him gave him my pitch and it was like he supported within seconds I was like wow that was easy. So after the gala, he approached me again, was like, hey, I want to keep supporting. Like,

we're going to, we're going to sponsor the next one and help with the food. I was like, that's a huge help. And then, like, I was very apprehensive to, like, you know, continue reaching out because I was like, I don't know how this donor relation goes, you know, so I was still learning everything. But then he invited us out to his place in Jackson Hole. I took my wife out there for birthday and it slowly started to become like this friend and then he's got three daughters they're all my age and my wife's age so then we started seeing them and then I just slowly started reaching out to him and was like hey like I have questions about this stuff and the response was so easy that it was like it was unquestionable that this guy was committed to to helping me not just the non-profit but like

be my my mentor and um i had some some pretty big family issues happen um don't talk to my dad anymore and like not saying that i was trying to replace that by any means but it was like this guy treated me like a son and it felt good you know and um so then i would i would go to him or even with all the hard stuff in life and i'd be like hey man like i'm i'm struggling right now with this and then he would give me these fatherly advice or business advice. And next thing you know, it's like now I've got this guy I can rely on. And I felt like it was kind of the same in the military trying to find those people that like the influential leaders that you could tell we're going in the right path. It's like at first you're kind of hesitant to ask for help with freaking with anything in life. Yeah.

And then once you do and you feel how truly easy it is and how people actually want to help you, it just became so natural. And now it's, um, it's been, pretty great. Like I couldn't imagine trying to do things on my own without a mentor like that. I was going to ask you, if you hadn't found him or developed that relationship, who do you think you would have asked those questions to? Fletcher. I don't know. Fletcher probably got some dope answers, though. You can't see him off camera, but I love dogs. He's a lab of some kind. Is it a chocolate lab? Yeah, chocolate lab. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, he's full of American lab. Yeah, they are the most loving, chill. We have a miniature

dachshund who sometimes will assume that position. Michael knows us well too. 99% of the time, though, he's a roving psychopath. One percent of the time. He actually does sleep quite a bit, though, doesn't he? He has these bursts. He's just like, ah!

Yeah. So we put a deposit down on another one because we think he needs a friend. Yeah. His name is javelin based off the missile. It's my favorite weapon system. Yeah. The other one's name is Bean. themes. I was trying to tell my wife, I'm like, listen,

the only thing that pairs well with a javelin is a Carl Gustav. Yes. And she just looked at me and said no. And it was one of those facial features where I said, okay. Yeah. Because I could tell. Because I really wanted to push it. Yeah.

Because what would be even more dope than having your wife standing in front of your house as the dogs are running amok? She's javelin, Carl. And only I understood how awesome. Yes. Oh, yeah. Then I had to explain to her what a Carl G was. and how horrible it is for the tissue lining of your heart.

And she's like, why would you want to name a dog dad? I'm like, I don't know. I just, one's named after a fire and forget, he'd seepink missile. Why can't we have another one of a recoilist? Yes, yeah. Highly concussive, just, oh my gosh. I was, who was I telling, I might have been telling Joe about it because he was asking about, we've somehow got on the topic of ammo expenditure at the ending

of training trips. And he was blown away by the concept of, no, you go and you have to shoot it all. They don't want it back. He said, what do you mean? I'm like, they line it up and you shoot it all. The dump x. Yeah, the dump x. I think the manual on the Carl G is like no more than six per day.

Yeah. Those are rookie numbers. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Especially when there's a palette of Carl G rounds. It's like you stay up there until you can't stay up there anymore. And then you go wonder. why you have heart palpitations and you're bleeding out of all your orifices later.

Yeah, yeah. It's like, and then you're A-gunning for the next six and then it's like, dude. Not service-related. Yeah, exactly. Yep. Yeah. Those random nosebleeds? No.

I shot a 50 Cal Barrett when I was in Snyper school. So many rounds at our Nylon facility that I got a nosebleed from it. I mean, your face is right now. The projectile on those things is no joke about the size of one of those cans. I don't know if I shot it after that course. I hated that thing. Just the most unwieldy, heavy, let alone if you, it's like heavy enough without the ammo. Yeah.

Like, I'm going to take three rounds. That's all I need to. Yeah. They're ridiculous stuff. Yeah. What, uh, how old were you when you fell apart with your dad? Um, my daughter just turned one. It was on her first birthday.

Oh, that's tough, man. Yeah. I lost, yeah, I lost contact with my oldest son. Um, I went through divorce during COVID as well. too. So why not start a construction project where you're paying out the ass and knows somehow simultaneously? And going through that process. My oldest was the oldest by definition and age. And I think he had, I would say in that, at that time while it was ongoing, I would say he was probably the most impacted by it. And I think that's because his ability to process it in real time

was a little bit more present. Also, I think, you know, 16 at the time, hard enough as a young man. Yeah. Their schools are getting shut down, all those things. But I lost contact with him for about 18 months. And it was tough, man. It's my own father, who used to live in Santa Cruz, California, where I was born, slowly coaxed him to coming up here.

He lives now a mile from us, which is also a blessing and a nightmare in and of itself because he's out of his fucking mind. Michael could attest to the crazy stuff that he does. It is shocking how much you seem to return to being a child as you age. You start as a child and you end as a child. Yeah. Yeah. Journeys through electronics and just a variety of things.

But I, man, I can't even fathom how hard that would be to have to get to a place where you're making the call to make that definitive decision. But again, if I'm reading through the lines correctly, I think I would take the same stance that you would. That's a tough one though. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like I gave a couple ultimatums and said, you know, maybe you and I can have a relationship, but I need answers. I need you to go get help, certain things like that.

So set boundaries. Yeah. I'll see if it happens. I'm sure that he listens to all my stuff and I'm sure he's going to hear this. So if it means it, if it truly means enough, it's easy for people to say there's nothing I wouldn't do. Right. Show me.

Yeah. Right? You know what I mean? If it means to that person what it means, then you need to live up to that. And if you need answers, then provide them. If you do work on yourself, then do it because I think actually, not that I'm an expert in any of this, but family dynamics. First off, find me a perfect family. All you're going to do, right? If you look at the family tree, trust me on the branch somewhere, they're like, yeah, that's Uncle Bob. Yeah. Uncle Bob is into some weird shit. Let me tell you what he did. Yeah. So everybody's got some crazy in their family. Even in my own family tree. And this is an actually. a good example of being there but not being able to process. One of my last real memories of my grandfather was being at his house and it was around Christmas time. And there was these weird lights that were bouncing off the walls. It was from the sheriffs that he had called to come kick us out of his house. Oh, wow. Because he and my father had had, and this is my father describing this because I haven't had,

well, my grandfather has since passed, but a very contentious relationship growing up. And there were hard-headed, like, German masonry family. Not like it was the smoothest, loving, caring environment that he probably was born into. Yeah, yeah. Born on, you know, brick-and-block construction sites. But I was physically there, but not able to process what was really going on. And that was kind of the end of him disowning us as a family, which was fine. We remained really good and close relatives with his brother, so my great uncle.

And the more I learned, the more truly inappropriate decision that my dad had. made, but he was the one who had to have those boundaries. And come to find out, the reason that we were there is he was trying to get his mom to come with, which is a concept. I didn't understand at the time, which is why his dad called the cops to try to get us out of it. So there, remember it, didn't have the grab. I was just like, does this mean like no, no presents or my idiotic young Brit?

Yeah, yeah. Like, I think that really big box over there might be for me. Can you take it with me? That was my life and world at the time. And, man, it was, family stuff is tough, man. But it's amazing if it had been a stranger, it's so easy to draw those boundaries. Like, oh, really? No, never.

I'm not even, but give you that opportunity. But because we share genetics, we'll just, we'll ignore it. Right. We'll let it happen. Yeah. We'll give you another second chance, the third chance. The hardest it passes. Yeah.

Yeah. That's tough, man. I know Fletcher. Yeah. He's growling. He might move that comer, I can move. Oh, I don't care. I don't even worry about it.

That's Michael's job, which he poorly does. Is it in a way? No, he's fine. He might end up moving it. It's on the wide angle. I'm sure it's totally fine. Yeah, it's totally fine. Okay, well, man.

I don't wish that on anybody. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely, definitely some heavy stuff. but, you know, looking at my family like I want to do right by my wife and my daughter. And if my wife, you know, she sensed it and stuff like that. So I was like, yeah, I got to take action. Like, this is what I would do to protect somebody else. So I'm going to protect my family.

You can't pick the family that you're born into, but you have to choose what you do with it. Right. Yeah. Man. Who, heavy stuff. Well, I mean, on a lighter note, what does it feel like to get blasted in the shin? Dude. Yeah.

I mean, you, yeah, you and I kind of are similar there. I just say 10 out of 10 don't recommend. Yeah, not at all. Yeah. You know, it's like, it was funny because back on the right leg. Right leg. Left over here. You could still drive.

Kind of. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, I could for sure. Yeah. You're just going to have to do it left foot. Yeah. Dude, it was the most awkward thing reaching over.

It was strange. Did it go through the? shin bone? No. So actually, I heard some of your story about yours. Like, I'm pretty sure. When I got hit, like I, they classified as a gunshot wound, but I'm pretty sure that it like ricocheted off the rock right there next to me. So thank God or maybe not because it penetrated my shin and then severed like in all these little shrapnel wounds in there, my superficial pronial nerve. which like almost immediately gave me this. They thought that it was compartment syndrome

because my legs swelled up, got really dark. So they thought like, oh, it broke my shin or something like that because I couldn't walk almost immediately. And later on, I ended up walking up the mountain, but it was very, very painful. Later on, they found out that it was from the nerve, like I developed this thing called complex regional pain syndrome.

And it's like a very rare nerve takes over the sympathetic nervous system. So like, I mean, as woo-woo's this sounds, but like if you get angry, sad, depressed, like all of these, like, anxious, it will literally trigger this symptom in my leg and it will swell. It'll get super painful. To this day. No. Okay. No. Thankfully.

Because right now I'm very emotional with this business. It's intense. Welcome to the show. Yeah. Yeah. it's yeah don't worry it only gets harder

oh I bet I could imagine especially like you know family life balance like is there any balance I don't know but

I'll let you know if I ever figured it out yeah but dude it was the most bizarre thing and they couldn't figure it out for a while because there's not

that many cases that they could kind of balance this off of or figure this out from so when they went in, they're like, well, we'll just do an aligraph, we'll cut out your nerve, and then put in a cadaver nerve, and everything should grow back, and it'll be fine.

Well, it ended up growing the cadaver nerves. I had like these two strands of the same nerve going out, so there was two cadaver nerves in there. It ended up growing together and creating this huge neuroma. So now I had this, like, huge ball of this fucked up nerve in my, skin that that made the CRPS even worse and like everything was angry. Is this like mid-calf too, front back? This is like right in like right here. Yeah.

So like this is your- Most painful spot where you shin something. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And like that's your main sensory nerve and your leg. And so I had a really good plastic surgeon named Dr. Sousa up and Walter Reed. And so he was like wanting to do.

all these limb salvage techniques and stuff like that. And I was good with it for a while because I had aspirations to go to another selection. I wanted to do all of these things. I literally told him like, hey, I was only two and a half months in deployment. I'd get me back out there. I'm ready. Because like still I was, I felt okay still-ish. Like, I mean, I lost two of my teammates out there that day and like it was a super gnarly, intense day. But I wanted to go back. wanted to redeem it, you know, I felt like a part of me had failed and I had to get back out there. But as soon as this complication happened, I was like, I know I'm staying here for a while. So he just did more and more surgeries.

And then we ended up doing this surgery that they're doing for amputees now called a TMR targeted muscle reintervation. It's pretty wild. So they'll take the nerve. And instead of just amputating it and cauterizing it and letting it just like dangle in there, they suture in a muscle. So it'll take a piece of your muscle and suture it on to the end of the nerve, which gives it the home.

So now like it reduces the phantom limb pains. Okay. Reduces. Doesn't totally negate them. So it's supposed to help because like nerves regenerate at such a slow pace. A millimeter a day. Yes.

And it's like with that comes pain and all of this shit. And if they don't have a place to live there's no like home for them it sends your like the brain all these fucked up signals so they did that and then shit just still went haywire so I ended up getting a spinal cord stimulator installed to control this pain in my leg to hopefully kill this CRPS because they called it the suicide syndrome it's like the pain gets so bad it can travel to different limbs and all this crazy shit so I was like I'm going to do everything I can you know and that they swore to me that getting

this stimulator wasn't going to disqualify me from soft. I was still like very determined to stay in. And as soon as they put it in there, my medical officer was like, no, this definitely disqualifies you. You can't jump, you can't dive. You can't do anything here. Like that you have your liability now. So it definitely did rocked my world. How is that having a box installed in your body? It sucked because it was right on my lower back. Oh. So like, you know, you're sitting in the, He's like wooden chairs. Like this one wouldn't do it. But like you're sitting in a wooden chair at a restaurant or something.

And I go to sit up and it like will catch the edge there. It like pulls on it. It was the size of a dip can. I'm not even kidding you. It was huge. And I had four leads. So my, my butt looks like I got freaking in a knife fight or like a grizzly just like

scratched my butt cheek off. Neither of those are good options by the way. Right. I'm thinking of the most dramatic one. Totally. But it's just like so far it's. pass and pass on both of those experiences. Yeah, so they shoved the wires in through my glute into my spine

to then be on this side of my dorsal root ganglion nerve system. So it stimulates that whole side of my leg. It worked, I think, while it was supposed to. But one day I woke up. I was in extreme pain still. I was on a huge cocktail of medications. and I took the very direct and extremely not, what would it be recommended route? And I stopped all my medications in one day and I turned off my stimulator.

But I substituted all of that with drinking more and smoking more weed or whatever it was. And I was like, if this pain is still this bad with all of these, things, these things are going to try to kill me. I might as well just do it myself with these and maybe get back to my own mental capacity. But none of that worked and I didn't tell anybody. So I had like these major withdraws. Thank God I didn't go in any like seizures or anything like that because... Did they have you on gabapentin? They had me on gabapentin. I was actually I was on gabapentin amy-tryptylene and nortyptylene, which are all like these antipsychotic and or anti-seizure.

Anti-seizure medicate. Exactly. Yeah. One reason I know this because I was on the same stuff. Yeah. Dude, what you're describing, there are a few people who have experienced that. And for almost a year when I got home, that is what I would deal with when I would try to sleep. I would be distracted during the daytime.

But I ended up moving into a different bedroom because I was tossing and trying. Yes. And so about a court. of Captain Morgan's would help with Ambien roulette, too, hard to say, fistful. Just, yeah. I had 13 pill bottles the same thing. And I, I weaned myself off without telling Navy medicine as well, too. And this is actually in the book, too.

I was at a gas station with my wife at the time. And I was driving a Nissan Xtera, which I think had a 10-gallon gas capacity. I mean, I know it's more than that, but this math problem that I was, was presented with was so galactically simple. And I think gas was maybe $2 a gallon. Yeah. And the question was around, well, what do you think it's going to cost to fill it up? And I stood there like I had never seen numbers before.

Yeah. And had at least the realization in that moment, like, oh boy, this isn't good. Yeah. And so I slowly, and the reason I did weaned myself off that, my sister was a nurse at the time. And she had found some drug interactions that the Navy, I was going to say that they didn't find. I'm not sure that they were looking. And I don't say that maliciously because I think they were just trying, okay, what's the symptom? Try this, this, this.

So yeah, you have pill bottle roulette. Yeah. Which, of course, alcohol is the only thing to wash it down with. You just turn the label that says the little alcohol warning. You just turn that the other one. Like, these are fine. You can drink on all these. Not medical advice for anybody listening.

There's an idiotic and we're lucky. We both survive this, to be honest. But she had mentioned, it was specifically the gabapentin. I was on. I had to sign waivers for the dosages that I was on. which makes you more susceptible to seizures. So if you cold turkey it, even if you don't have seizures,

you might all of a sudden start. Right. And so I just titrated myself down from all of that, but it was still another five, six months. That nerve pain will drive you insane. It was unreal. Yeah, I remember you mentioning that ketamine was not a, you were not a fan of ketamine.

No, I've had it one time, and I told the doc, don't give me any more of that. Yeah. So I had a horrible, on my Medivac, horrible experience with ketamine. And like, I don't know, you know, there's a cocktail that they say, like, especially with the Ranger Medics and stuff. I went to this, like, short course Sockham refresher

with the 18 deltas. It was really cool. I got two weeks of, like, prolonged field care and all of this stuff. But anyways, they would talk about this new concoction with ketamine. You want to mix it with Versed to help with this, like, this like PTSD awareness type of thing. It's like, hey, like, if you,

put them in a k-hole, they're going to, they're going to go nuts and not nuts, but like, something could happen. If you do the Versaida, it's like the men in black, I don't know. I don't know how true it is, but they didn't do that concoction. They just hit me with ketamine, and I, like, looping with the rotors. Like, I could see them. Oh, dude, and all of a sudden I get sucked back down into the cave, and, like, my teammates, they're obviously dead, but in my vision, they were dead, but alive yelling at me telling me get me out get me out and so then i'm like trying to reach down for them as they're yelling at me but i'm strapped into the litter so like my arm t-rex arms i'm trying to

like reach and then next thing you know i wake up in the hospital and i'm like screaming like i mean it was like a movie scene i'm like what the fuck just happened like where am i like i was just right there and do you know who ben glover is yeah well i don't know him but i know of him he had a piece of brass in his face and they were going to do emergency surgery. So they hit him with too much ketamine. He said that so it spit him into the K-hole. He lived an entire life and died of old age. What? Then came out of it and 15 minutes is passed. And he's like, I still think about that shit sometimes. Meaning the experience was so real. Oh yeah. He lived an entire life. Yeah. In 15 minutes.

I can't even fathom what you, like the blades and being pulled. How does that not create stray wires in your brain in and of what you survived leading up to that? Right. Getting juiced. Yeah. It was nuts, man. Old age. Yeah.

Yeah. That's a long. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think he came out of it and they hadn't even started the surgery. Oh, geez. Yeah.

Wow. Yeah. I ended up, they were telling me, you know, with this nerve pain, part of the only way to help with the pain because Dilaudid wouldn't do it when I was like in or post-surgery's. So they said we can do ketamine infusions. And I was like, terrified to do it because I'm like, dude, I don't know. It's going to throw me into this. And they're like, well, it's such a low dose that it's really for pain management.

So I tried it. I had actually a great experience. So I would like go do my resets and go back up to Walter Reed for, I would go pre-surgery and then stay for post-surgery to do these ketamine drips. And it would kind of help reset some baseline so that I had had a little bit of breathing room for pain free for maybe a week. And then I hit such a low point right after I stopped all my medications. I called my surgeon and was like, I want to cut my leg off and take this stimulator out of my back. pain is too bad. I can't do it anymore. I'm going to end it if we can't fix it. Um,

I was extremely suicidal. Like I was, I was done. Um, had you ever been suicidal up to that point? Um, so it, it was like, uh, it was a very, it was a wavy type of, uh, uh, no, I mean in your life in Oh, in my life. No, not, not since before, like, before I got shot. Yeah, that's what I meant. It was not something that you had, because there are people who, man, I've met a few of these people who will tell you about how they had battled that thought. Yeah. Through their teens, barely made it through into their 20s. I can't even imagine that battle. Yeah.

I mean, it's hard enough knowing that I thought about that now because it's like, I mean, shit, dude, I couldn't, I couldn't imagine that. Like starting out so young and having that thought because, yeah, it's, it's, it's scary, honestly. And, you know, I know you've talked about it in which, like, I want to say how thankful I am that a person like you uses a platform like that, like that book to say certain things that you did with drinking, with, you know, asking for help and all that shit. Like, I mean, it's amazing because the more people like you, like us that do that stuff, like it's going to give people the ability and like the confidence to go ask themselves. Because I'll tell you what, man, like, I didn't think. I think I was the epitome of the guy, I didn't believe in PTSD. Didn't, didn't even, I wouldn't care about human factors. It was like, if you got family issues, if you're not strong enough to do this job, you need to go somewhere else because we've got a job to do. We've got a mission

to complete. And like, we don't have room for you to be weak over here. It was so, it was so fucked up. Like I... What do you think that came from? Maybe it was from my childhood, trying to suppress things that I've been through that, like, I didn't know about. And, you know, I grew up in Kansas City, just outside of Kansas City, in the suburbs there. And I feel like I had a decent childhood kind of growing up, but then like learning about different things. I think I got into drugs and alcohol so young because of certain neglect and things like that. And like all these fights.

And I lived a very aggressive lifestyle before that. And I was very much like not, I didn't share my feelings ever. So then when I got into the Marine Corps, it was just like, I know what I'm doing. I'm going to be the hardest dude here and, you know, trying to, you know, right when you get to prison, fighting the biggest dude, it's like that's how I looked at the Marine Corps. So. Well, again, you know, not knowing a lot about your upbringing, but what you just described, that environment's not going to reward you being probably super in touch with your feelings or wearing them on your shirt sleeve. It's going to be the opposite. Yeah.

And so, yeah, that doesn't surprise me. I think that could 100% lead you towards that space of maybe less empathetic of what's going on on other people's life. But again, you're a product of the environment that you came up in and through. And I don't know about you. But for me, you know, the more laps I get around the sun, I used to think I had it pretty figured out. I think I peaked at around 22 peak college. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Definitely. It's the most anyone's ever known about the universe and everything in it. And now at 48, I just sit back. And I don't know anything, man. Yeah. You know, when you bring up the book, too, about trying to be honest about my experiences, I think one of the biggest mistakes, people from the military world specifically in special operations, even though they know it's not true, they can fall for it, is this archetype of a superhero that has a shield and bullets bounce off them metaphorically and physically.

I don't know about your experience, but in mine, the best operators in the world were still worried about their mortgage. They still had inner family conflict going on. They were still worried about their kids, all the other stuff. And maybe they had a better ability to not let that impact them on the job because the job never suffers, right? The job suffers last mission first. Right. You'll put yourself in the dirt, literally metaphorically to make sure. But at the end of the day, you're not a superhero.

Yeah. And I don't think it's smart to think that you're one or try to perpetuate that. And I don't think it's smart for other people to look at that community, not knowing anything about it and think that what they're looking at is superheroes. Because we're all dealing with versions of the same stuff. And I think it's important to remember that. Yeah. You know, it's funny you say that and when I read that or listened to it.

I, after I had received this award, I felt like the nation, that's how they were looking at me. And like a very few select people even knew that that happened because. We should be clear. We're talking about the Navy Cross, which is the second highest award. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's not a, what are they, I'm trying to think,

what was the big award pre-9-11? It was a Navy Achievement Medal. There was something under that that. It was like a certificate of appreciation. Yeah, yeah, yeah, thanks for coming out. We're not talking about a cocktail napkin away here. I mean, I'm sure we can get into what happened that time, but it was unbelievable.

And the award, I think, is very befitting of your actions that day. Well, thank you. Yeah, it was, it was hard because, you know, I kind of, when we were growing up in the community, I don't know about you guys, but like, I mean, in boot camp, we would like march and talk about Valor Award recipients,

Medal of Honor recipients. You know I was in the Navy, right? Oh, yeah. Meaning we didn't have, there's... The Marine Corps has a different fighting environment than the Navy. Not that there hasn't been Melo of Honor recipients in the Navy.

Yeah. But you guys had Chesty Polar, all right? And so... And Dan Daly. And even I know Chesty Polar and the Navy, which, let's be clear, the Marine Corps is in fact. the Department of the Navy, but they don't have to harp on that fact.

The Mint's department. It is. I openly and clearly say that every single time. Best uniforms, hand down, class. Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. And then the worst uniforms would be the enlisted bucket of paint, hat, and whatever. I understand that there's a lot of history that comes from that.

Yeah. Utter trash. Yeah. 13 buttons when you're trying to take a piss. Oh, my God. Unbelievable. That's what they have. 13.

That's the smart people cut those out and they put Velcro, but they have the buttons. Oh, yeah. There you go. Yep. Heck yeah. But yeah, in boot, I'm just going to say, although I have respect for both, I think Navy boot camp might be a little easier than Marine Corps. Maybe. You guys, man, the Marine Corps product that they produce, legendary.

Yeah. Legendary. It is pretty amazing. Like, I mean, I was such a, I was a wild card before going into boot camp. And then when I left, I was brainwashed, yes. but like I was a totally different person with with actual like morals and discipline and like I was actually making my bed. It was insane and I still make my bed to this day, which is nuts. I think it's safe to say.

And what's interesting too, and we'll just say boot camp in general, which in my opinion is the transition from a me-centric world to a we-centric environment. The curriculum is so good that depending on where you're coming from and what you need, it kind of provides that. Like for you, it sounds like you were a little bit absent oversight, rules, discipline. Yeah. And boom, it's, it finds what you need and sharpens that knife's edge. It works, man. Mm-hmm. And it's got something for everybody, for sure.

I don't care who you are. Yeah. It's got something for you. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, I don't think we need mandatory service, but right now in this day and age, like there's some freaking, some weird shit going on. I'd be okay with it. Yeah.

I would caveat, though, doesn't have to be the military. How about Doctors Without Borders? How about the Red Cross? You just have to serve something greater than yourself, I would say for two years. Yeah. And even more beneficial, even though I don't think it would be a requirement as if you could do it where you don't live. Not necessarily overseas, but go to a different state because then you'd get a different optic. Right.

In time where you're thinking about something other than yourself as your primary concern. Again, I'm not advocating for it. I don't think it would hurt, though. I think it would be net positive. Yeah. For sure. I agree. Yeah. I learned so much. And I mean, it's still, it was hard to see and feel like when talking about transitioning, I know I kind of got sidetracked from what I was going on. But like transitioning when I thought about defining my life as a Marine and as a special operator, I was like, I'm not going to be good at anything. Like, all I know how to do is kill people. Like, wait a second. Like, I learned so much from the basics of like leadership of being.

a team player and all of these things, like there are so many life skills that you learn, even just from the first four years of my career. Like that's kind of what I'm referring back to right now for business development. It's like, because some of the special operations stuff is like we operated at a different type of capacity where critical thinking was great, but I still need like basics to figure out how to like lead junior Marines. You know, it's like I got a 13 employees now that I have to figure out how to like mold my lifestyle or mold my, uh, my leadership styles to, to fit. You know, every single one of them is

different. Harder or easier than Marine Corps leadership. Oh my God. It's way harder. So I have, we flow between 20 to 30 employees. Average age is under 22. Almost all are female. Do you think seal platoon leadership is hard? Okay. I'm not saying it was the easiest, but I can tell you something that's a lot harder. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yes. And yeah, people are, oh, you are seal, you must know everything about leadership. I know a little bit about leadership. I was exposed to some great and some horrible. But man, those concepts apply that to a non-military world where people are earlier in their life with dreams and aspirations and trajectories. And they know they're only going to be there for six months because it's a stopping point, not a vocation. And getty up. Oh, yeah. It's wild. It is. It is. absolutely insane. Like, the, the level of, like, complexity that goes into it is, is, I didn't, I didn't think that I, I don't even know how to put it into words, because I'm like, I would talk to

my wife about it. Like, I don't know how to approach this situation. Like, I want to go in and yell at people, but I can't. They're, like, that's the farthest thing that I can do. Just try it once. Just so you can double check your hypothesis. I mean, I know the answer to that one, because I've tried it, but I'm going to let you go ahead and experience that on your own. And it's funny because these guys deal with guns, but I'm like, there's no way. Like, if I do, if I raise my voice, I'm going to lose, I'm going to lose people fast. Yeah. So, yeah.

But you got to find a fine line because it's like you have to show I'm the boss without, you know, being overly aggressive. The leadership stuff they taught us, though, is the special sauce. It's the application. Right. That varies. And I've spent 10 years now talking. at civilian organizations and a lot of them really deeply from an outside they think that the military has leadership figured out and i will say to a degree the military does have it figured out

but what they can't replicate what i mean is somebody looking from outside the military to the inn and i can tie this beyond one layer deep because just going to boot camp and being in the the military is one layer of initiation into that leadership style, but then you go into the special operations world where it's additional selection and refinement. And what comes from that is that the more that happens, in my experience at least, people become more and more and more aligned towards the end state, the purpose. They're there because they want to be there. Yes, they're contractually obligated, but they keep volunteering for things that are really, really hard. And what you get at the end of that are some of the easiest people to lead on planet

earth. But if you pair that with, I do believe that the military has great leadership foundation, you can lead in a way that is so much more prescriptive and dogmatic. You're going to tell them what to do and they're going to do it because they're already bought in. Right. If you pull that out and you try to lead that way in a civilian organization where their onboarding program was a PowerPoint presentation after a one hour interview, good luck with that. Yeah. It might work if you find that one person that aligns with that style. But the number of professional organizations that have pulled me aside and said, listen, we've really tried to model what we thought was the military approach and it's not working. And my response to them is, yeah, I don't know why you thought

that it was going to. Yeah. You don't have the buy-in. We had people who would literally kill themselves and other people because they were so bought in. You sell used cars. Like, we're not talking about the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's not going to. going to work. Same concepts. It's the application. Right. That varies. And that is what's hard. Yeah. Do you have any advice for that, like that initial in processing of a, you know, a bulk batch of employees coming in for- Beat them. Basically punish them. No, that's the answer that the military users. Now, the first thing you have to remind people is that leadership is not about having the perfect plan and then having the perfect team executed.

Leadership is about taking the team that you do have, doing the best you can with your plan, but accomplishing the goal, regardless of the team or a plan you really have in front of you. There's two very different things there. And slowly is what I recommend. And a lot of organizations, they don't even have an onboarding process.

And if you think about it, again, to go back to boot camp, that's where they instill the ethos of the Marine Corps, which of all the branches, the Marine Corps does the best. think with the esprit of corps and the globe and anchoring, the people like, like, you know, they're just legends of that area. I'm sure that the Navy and other services have those, but I just really do think that the

Marine Corps, as far as that this is who we are, this is what we stand for for the rest of their lives. Every Marine that I have ever met still carries that with them. And that's a testament to how they were onboarded. Do I think that IBM needs to do that? Probably not. But the number of companies I see that have no onboarding, they're not investing any time on the front end. And the only realistic expectation that I can see if a company doesn't invest it on the front end is they're going to have problems along the way.

Right. So now you're just triaging stuff and plugging holes. So you've got to at least devote some time. Figure out who you are. Explain to people they're left and right boundaries. It's empowering when people know what their job is and what their job isn't. You know, and again, these are all concepts that comes from the world that we came from. the commander's intent, right?

Here's the objective. Here's our commander's intent for this mission. Oh, and I'm sitting there as an E5, like, I can understand that. And now as an E5, if I get to a small decision point, I'm like, okay, what were you trying to do with this? Gotcha. I'm going this direction. Right. It's empowering.

It's empowering. And you can work that into your organizations, but it takes time. And sometimes it takes money. And organizations are moving at the speed of business. And a lot of them don't want to dedicate that time to it. Right. And that's when I ask them, do you want to do this up front or do you want to do this as a career long course correction where you may never get to where you want to go. And that's the choice for them to answer. Yeah, yeah. Same concepts though. Yeah. It's the application that is different. Yeah. It's take your time to get to know the people that are working for you because you don't have a selection course, right? You don't know necessarily why they're there. But if you can identify that in people, in my experience, the why. And at the coffee shop for me, it's pretty easy. I don't expect anybody to. to be a barista for 20 years. I'm okay with it if you want to. I might think you're just a touch

weird if that's what you want to do. Because it is a very monotonous job. You're doing the same stuff. But if I talk to them and they say, oh, I'm here. I just finished high school. And I'm going to try to figure out what I'm going to do next. I'm going to take about a year off and then go to college. I got you. Right. I'll work with you. I'll meet you where you're at. I understand you're here. You're why to be here is to pay your bills. I can work with that. It's when I think your why is here because I need you to live every core value of this coffee shop and you're there to pay your bills. We have a divergence now. That's my fault.

That's the leader for not understanding that. So get to know your people and understand their why. And you might have a different language for every single one of your employees. But that's what's worked for me. Yeah. Yeah. That's literally a Marine Corps trait, leadership trait. Yes.

Know yourself and seek self-improvement. Yeah. But look out for your Marines welfare. really. So then I'm just thinking like, how do I put all of those into action and business? And, you know, it was, I had a goal, but the only way to achieve that goal is to give these guys the intent of what I want this to become. Yep. And, you know, if we're in Jackson Hole, we need that five-star Jackson Hole vibe. Like, so you're, everything from appearance to how the place looks. Like, we're, this is what we're going to actually deliver. Yeah. And so it's, it's, it's

great so far, I think. It's a challenge. Yeah. Yeah, it's a challenge. It's, if I ever figured out in any way, I'll let you know. Yeah, please. Also, if you've ever figured out, you better let me know, too, because we're stumbling our way through here. It's an interesting challenge. It's all the same stuff, though. Yeah. It really is all the same stuff. It's just the application that is different. All the way up to the point of, like you said, you know, I know how to kill people. How am I to do anything else. If you actually look at that statement from a technical perspective, I know how to plan and conduct a high level of military operation. And when I get on target, I know my roles and responsibilities and how to physically shoulder a weapon properly, align my sights

while utilizing marksmanship procedures and techniques to get rounds on target where I want them to and not on other targets, that has everything to do with the business world as well. Right? The foundation that you build on the TTPs that you're going to use in business that you can set for your own business, the precision and accuracy that you're using to metaphorically pull the trigger on the, you know what I mean? It actually all applies. It's all the same stuff. It's the different application. Yeah. It's just way easier to say, oh, I'm going to do anything. Oh, they'd kill people. God damn it. Yeah. Which is the most useless skill on planet Earth. Yeah. Honestly, I think that some of us use that as an excuse to not take action. And like,

I think it might have been with you and Rogan talking about how wild it is, how many of us get fat when we leave or don't do anything. It's like, well, because you're playing the professional veteran now and like people owe you something, no, like, where did you lose the drive to like go out and take selections and to freaking, crushed skulls. Listen, I can't speak for the Marine Corps. We had some tubby-tubbies in the SEAL community. I'm going to be honest, though, it seemed as if it was toward the higher collar devices. Enlisted in, officer. Once you pick up Chief, something happens. You get access to the chief's mess. So that's the jump for people listening in the Navy from E6 to E-7. That's the big jump on the listed side. What is it in the Marine Corps? Is it E-6 to E-7 as well?

Once you pick up E-7, yeah, you're a gunny. Yeah, normally it's, It's E7 to E8. That's the big one. Yeah, that's when people really start to make that shift. Yeah. No, there are some rotund. Yeah. Yeah.

And maybe they could say they, you know, they fly a desk for a living or they're in a training role. It's like, okay. But you're also still in a leadership role. Yeah. People are paying attention. Yes. Yeah. So what standard are you going to set?

You're going to talk about being physically dominant and start. to tie your shoes. Okay, cool, got it. Noted. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You were talking about when you got your award. Yes. You were talking about the perception that you had or that other people, what you thought the perception other people had of you. What was that? Yeah. So, you, you know, we were talking about the superhero type of thing. And going through boot camp, we idolized these superheroes, these high valor award recipients, Medal of Honor, Navy Cross recipients. And then when I get to the unit over at Marsock, we have our walls decorated, like, much like you have here.

You know, we've got paddles everywhere with- There's shadow boxes and storyboards and people's gear left behind. Exactly. And so it's like, okay, so who are the legends that walked before us and how do I become like them? Hopefully not dead, but like, you know, how do I live up to their legacies? Like our schoolhouses are named after, you know, guys like that. So I fell into a very prestigious team and we had a Navy cross-reshiping it from Afghanistan. We had a like this guy, Aaron Torian, he was in like a legend within Marsok. And I'm

like, these giants walked before me. How do I live up to their reputation? And then it happened. I got put into a shitty situation and I did some things that I feel like a lot of people would do in those circumstances, but I got awarded for it because of where I, was, you know, and... More than where you were. It's because you were there and you chose to make that call. Right. So it is a combination of those things, but don't diminish the actions that you took by any

stretch, because you are, you live up to every ounce of that citation, for sure. Well, thank you. I just, sometimes I still have an issue, I guess, talking about it. I don't know. I don't know if I feel, I feel like kind of weird talking. I don't know. I think it's a... It meaning let me ask you this.

Are you comparing yourself to other people or other awards of the similar level when you say that? I think it's a mixture of that and I don't ever want to feel like I'm like bragging or boasting about anything. Like I just, I wanted to feel natural but I guess in these situations, you know,

like you gotta kind of, you have to talk about it. It's like I don't meet people and say, hey, I'm a Navy Cross recipient, Nick Jones actually. But I saw you wearing your Blazer today was there. Hey, shh. There are some people who it is, you know that it's 10 feet in front of them somehow and you know that. Yeah. And again, I was never put into a place like that. I never took any actions that were like that. I'm not going to judge anybody. But my theory is your experiences and the things that come from that you've earned the right to do with them however you want to. Yeah, yeah. That people, the, you know, the, what do they call the lapel? Yeah, the lapel pin stuff, never been my thing, not judging anybody for doing that. Yeah. There's other ways that you can. take that for sure, but it's, uh, I think it would be hard, actually to be perceived as boasting or bragging about it. I don't know any citations at that level that are anything other than horrific. You know what I mean? It's nobody's best day. Yeah. It might have elicited the best

performance of their life, but they're all horrible. Right. And at that level, they all involve generally catastrophic loss of life of others. which I don't even know how it would be possible to boast about that. Yeah. And so like that point right there is one that like messed me up for a while because when people, the nation see a Navy Cross or a Medal of Honor, their first reaction is congratulations.

Yeah. And my response to that much like thank you for your service is like sometimes I don't know how to respond to that. and I'm like congratulations for my teammates dying congratulations for like risking my life and that's not how they mean it though

I know Have you ever tried this one when they say it you go give it a try yeah I'll try thank you for your service yeah excuse me

listen I'm not saying I've made all good decisions in my life yeah that'd be yeah it's like okay that's something wrong with that guy put in your roll of decks Yes, I will.

Okay. They don't know what to say. Yeah. And so then it was like, I, then this was a me thing. I put it into this box and I was like, I'm perceived as this hero, as this superhero that like we put all of these other guys into. And now that's me, but like down here, I'm struggling. Like this was the hardest day of my life. This was like something that is going to live and is burned into my memory forever.

And so like at one point in time, I felt like that unstoppable bulletproof guy with, you know, Captain America. And then I got really humbled and realized like we are all human and like even the best can, you know, can fall. And it was a it was a very intense wake up call that it's like, dude, if I don't like, if I don't reframe this and look at this differently, it's going to tear me up, you know, because I was like, I'm not a, I'm not a superhero. This award is just something that was given to me for, you know, actions. If I could give it back, I would. You know, I've said that several times, but it's like, it was a very hard thing to kind of, I guess, recalibrate in my mind of like,

we are put into, like, God puts us into these situations to take these certain actions and they wouldn't give it to certain people if we weren't strong enough to be able to do something with it. And I asked somebody after the fact, I was like, look, I've got an opportunity to speak and, you know, I think that they want me to talk about the experience. I was like, how do I do this? And like, how can I use this to my advantage?

And they're like, look, like, there's a time that you can use this for good or you can use it for evil. Like, you've got this very high award now. he's like but you have two literal lanes to walk now use it for good or use it for evil your own personal gain or to help people and I was like I'm fucking helping people like that's what I'm doing like there's no way because that's what I tried to do and I felt like I failed and now I got to pick it back up and and you know so that's that's kind of been you know my whole my whole goal with this thing is like I didn't this award wasn't for me this was for them their sacrifices so

Have you the chance to talk with other Marines who've got in the Navy Cross? Yeah, so that I went to, I joined this, it's called the Legion of Valor. It's actually the oldest veteran service organization to date. I believe that's the Illuminati, actually. Okay. Michael cut that out. I think we've just breached our security protocol. The Illuminaity might be, either the Illuminati or Scientology might come for us.

One of the two is after us now. Yeah. Hopefully you got some. Depending on what you believe, the Illuminati's been around longer than the military. But I'm not so sure I believe in the Illuminati. If they're here, do you got any guns under here? Actually, I do, yes. It's on my side, though.

I'll hand it to you. Roger that. These are all Airsoft. Yes. I had thought about it. I don't want anybody to get too super fired up about the studio and try to figure out where it is because I don't want a, like, class three door. True.

So, yeah, that shoots Pellas people. Yeah, yeah. Ha-ha. Yeah. Some freaking nerds. All right. The Legion of Valor. Yeah.

Great name, by the way. I think it was 19 or 1881, I believe is when it was established. Don't quote me on that, but I believe that that's right. Anyway, so it is a organization for Medal of Honor recipients and cross recipients. So any branch, but more recently they get these annual get-togethers, their conventions, and they bring all of these award recipients together. And it's great. I mean, it's a bunch of old timers that get together

and they go on these memorial museums and stuff like that. So I got invited. It was May of 2020. Something like that. April, 2022. Yeah. And I had,

in December, In December of 21, my wife told me that she was pregnant with my daughter. In January, it was when I had my big breakdown. Attempted suicide. I might have these dates mixed up. I don't know, but I was like, there's no way that this kid, I didn't know if it was a boy or girl yet, is going to meet me. Like, I'm a drunk.

I'm a fucking animal. Like, there's no absolute way. So I went into my garage, me and Fletcher, took my Glock, and pulled the trigger. He knows. And I had a light strike in my Glock. And I mean, and that doesn't happen hardly ever with Glockes.

Well, even just ammunition. So for people listening, a light strike, on the back of a cartridge, there's the projectile, which is generally encapsulated by the brass cartridge, and there is a primer that is a small explosion

that basically lights off the powder, which expands, explodes, and then that's what pushes the projector out. You're talking about the firing pin hitting the primer, primer not going off. I've had these on the range, but it's...

It's rare. Dude, we're talking one in millions of rounds. So when that happened, and like, I mean, you know, we say like the, like, firing on an empty changer is the loudest sound in the gunfight, right? So I was like, it was empty,

and I literally racked it. and round came out and I just started bawling my eyes out. And Fletcher fucking knocks me off the chair that I'm in and like I'm, you know, still drinking. And finally when I like wipe my tears away. You were drinking at the time. Oh yeah. How hard was it for you to get to that place where you were applying pressure to the trigger? So, man.

I almost went through rehearsals before. It's very professional of you. Yeah. Jesus, dude. But the most, the weirdest thing was is I was doing it while I've never said this out in public. The weirdest thing was I was doing it while I was driving. And because I was alone, nobody was around me, you know, so I just took the gun out of my glove box. I was like, I could easily do this. And like, you think you were slowly walking yourself to that point?

Yeah. I was just seeing if I could do it, like feel the trigger press or literally talk to myself. Like, I know you've pulled the trigger a thousand times. Like, it's so different. Except it is. And, yeah, it's a different enemy on the other side of the muzzle this time. It goes against every natural survival instinct that I think the human, that a human being has. Yeah.

Dude, and it's, it's so bizarre because it's like when we talk about suicide and we have friends that have done that, we're like, oh, my gosh, they're so selfish and this and that. You know, it's like, how could you do that to us? But in that very moment, it was the most selfless thing that I could think of because I was like, dude, I'm such a burden. I'm a fucking train wreck. Like, I'm going to bring everybody down. I'm going to make my wife like go absolutely crazy. I'm going to ruin everything if I stay here. And like my pain is so bad.

Like, I just want to break. I want to rest. And I was fucking done. And so I just knew like, this is it. This is the sure way. I know that this thing works. And, dude, it was, yeah. I mean, I can still see my face to that day.

And I didn't tell anybody for a really long time, getting back to where I went and why I went there. I went to this Legion of Valor Convention with an agenda in mind. I wanted to meet these people and figure out how they're still alive because I don't know how you live with the weight of this award. And I thought it was the award doing it to me. Like I knew that the battle and all of that stuff,

but I'm like now, because I put myself in this box of this like hero, but a failed hero and all this shit. I was like, I was fucked up from it. And I went there and this dude starts talking, Navy Cross recipient from, it was like, 2004 in Iraq. and he said like 12 years after his battle, he attempted suicide. And I just, I broke down. And my wife didn't know why.

And we went back to our hotel room that night and I told her. And I was like, I tried to kill myself. And I don't know what to do because I'm like panicking. And like I feel like I'm still in that spot. I just don't know how to do this stuff. And she didn't know how to take that either. And because I've put her through so much shit. Like, I mean, she's seeing me.

in my alphas to go notify my friend's wife that he's never coming home and like all of this crazy shit and then she gets a knock on the door thinking that I'm dead and now I tell her that I want to end it and like God I mean she is a saint like she's amazing if it wasn't for her like I don't know where I'd be it'd probably be dead but um I anyways when I told her that she didn't know and I was like, you know, we're planners. I know how to enact the contingency plan, but the only way that I know how to do that is to like fire the Red Star Cluster.

And I was like, I need to tell all of my friends. You need help. You need support. And so do I. Like, this is the first step. This is the only thing that I know how to do. And we have a board of directors and I'm literally like committed to helping people,

but I can't even help myself. So I went there first and called my closest friends and told them, I was like, I just need you to know that I've been living a lie. Like I am suicidal. I'm an extreme alcoholic. Like, I need fucking help. And so then I took the step when I got home to Bozeman, and I called the VA.

And I said, I need to be admitted into inpatient treatment. I'm an alcoholic, and I'm extremely suicidal. And they told me that it's a six-month wait for any sort of treatment. And so then I had another mental breakdown. And I was like, I can't fucking wait six months. There's no way. Yeah. Like I'm like in crisis mode right now. And then I got, I started getting connected with more people and I, that's when I found out about plant medicine. And I went down and did that stuff and freaking blew my mind in another direction. So yeah, I really started to get my life back in track. But I don't really remember what I was going into when we started talking about that. But no, the Legion of Valor. Well, I was going to ask you, this ties into the Legion of Valor. In your conversations with those people, Elvonne recipients and Navy Cross recipients.

Have you met anybody yet who doesn't struggle with the weight of that award? Yeah, I don't, I mean. Like, Audie Murphy is an example. I keep using him because, again, I wasn't in the Marine Corps. Yeah. But even, or Chesty Puller, another name. You know, try it when you're done with pull-ups. One more for Chesterty.

Yeah. Or from the Marine Corps. So I've been told. Which one of those, Chesteris was one of the most decorated Marines, like in the history of military awards. Yeah. Today's episode is brought to you by Hexclad. It's coming to the end of the summer, and it's kind of a bummer.

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are anything like me and you love grilling, that's your favorite way to cook, then don't make it harder than it needs to be. Stop losing food through the grates, stop fighting, cleanup, and upgrade your backyard cooking setup with Hexclad barbecue collection. For a limited time only, listeners get 10% off your order with the exclusive link. Head over to hexclad.com slash cleared hot. You can support the show and check them out at hexclad.com slash cleared hot. Make sure to let them know that we sent you back to the show. It would be fascinating. I mean, I know he's long past, but to sit down and be able in a medium like this to unpack the weight of that,

I bet at a certain level he wasn't okay with it either. And he is still to this day. And he should be an icon inside of the Marine Corps. But I don't know if anybody is suited to handle it. And just absorb that. It's horrendous enough to earn that. And I, and I, fortunate enough to know some Medal of Honor recipients on the, on the seal side. And it's a, it's a kind of a mixed bag.

There was one from the Vietnam era that was awarded that really, really young. And I think he's struggled with it his entire life because it's all he's been known for. And everywhere he goes, it's, he, he comes in 10 feet after the notification that that person is coming. that thing and so people have these preconceived notions of him. But I don't know if you're supposed to be able to handle the weight of that, man. Yeah. I think it would have been, I've asked myself this question, like, if I wouldn't have got hurt and I would have been able to stay active, still gotten the award, if I would have been

going that fast still, would it have affected me? I think my answer stays the same, but I would have been doing all of the intense shit that we did before to help drown it out. for the time being. Yeah. But eventually, we're all going to transition. And once that shit slows down, that is when... And so, I mean, that's been...

My goal is to help people, like, realize, like, do transitions coming. And, like, I mean, there's so many different transitions in life, but it's like... You've got to get ready to be bored a little bit. I would almost We're purely in the realm of hypothesis at this point But I've heard you describe before That award Correct me if I'm wrong

But you have described before you got that award But you felt like you had failed Because of your two teammates Had you gotten that award And you hadn't been injured I think there's a better than not chance If you viewed that as a failure You would have doubled down even more

And potentially even sought out more aggressive, more dangerous positions to try to make amends for that. Yeah. And I don't know what that looks like either. Yeah. It might be for the totality of your life, the best thing that happened that you were not given the opportunity to try to take action after that. Again, deep in the world of hypothesis at this point.

Yeah. I mean, I also think about if I didn't get shot, I mean, I would have probably tried to go farther into the cave and would have ended up getting killed regardless. Do you still view it as a failure? I do have a way different relationship with the mission itself because now I understand that I did do everything that I could that day. And they got recovered, they came home. And, you know, I think the reason why it felt

like a failure to me personally is because I was like the first responder on scene. I went in there and I pulled out this French guy and then I fought for for a long time to try to get these guys. And I was like took over this tactical control down there. And I mean, I was I was probably fifth in line for taking over like the command, but I ended up becoming the first one just because of no, it was so complex. It was like, I'm calling the shots now. Nobody's taking action. Like, I'm going to do this.

Well, what happened? It might help the audience if we used to play. Yeah, yeah, yeah. At whatever depth and level you want to explain it. Yeah. I mean, I won't go. If I get into too much details, I'd end up ranting, and then it'll take a long time. But like, you know, speeding things up on March 8th, 2020,

we got tasked with a really large cave clearance operation. initial reports, there were seven fighters in these seven different caves that we've been watching, French intelligence and Iraq. Right. Yes. So in between Mosul and Erbil, there was this mountain range called the Mockmore Mountains, technically controlled by the Kurdish. It was bizarre like the Kurdish owned the ridge line, but just on the south side of that,

there was all of these fingers that ran down into this valley and ISIS just had caves all throughout there. So they had been watching these and they didn't know what they were doing supposedly, but we were told to go check them out. And we were going to soften them up, bomb the caves beforehand, and then come in and kind to do a BDA or battle damage assessment. So basically just cleaning up all the dead bodies and figuring out what kind of shenanigans they're doing in the caves.

So we insert on helicopters. Well, let me back up because talking about planning, and I heard you talking with Joe Rogan about this, there's a specific point where in planning, there's a go and a no-go criteria. You know much about that, much like jumping too. And your experience in those, like you fucking hit the wind capacity.

You shouldn't be jumping in certain days. Hey, guys, it's 40 knots. Anybody want to go? First off, the book is deciding this for us. Yes, yeah. There is literally in writing why we shouldn't go. And when you say, like, enemy forces double in size, that's a no-go criteria. So why are we still going?

And so anyways, that exact thing happened. Like, over the hours of intelligence gathering and information updating and stuff like that, there's all these fighters that starts showing up in full kit, ready. They know we're coming. and it's like these constant updates and my guys are getting juiced. They're like, oh yeah, and I've got young guys on the team.

Like, this was my fifth deployment, but only my third to combat. So in Afghanistan once, northern Iraq, but Kirkuk area for my second one. And then that would be my third. Anyways, I went over there and I briefed them and I was like, look, guys,

like we know we're going to see something. We know we're going to get into a fight here. Like, this is real, though. like, you know, just watch out for each other, do the plan that we, we rehearsed. So we hit the ground. And it was like, it was very surreal flying over it because like if you've been any part of that country, like, you know if there wasn't so much shit going on and so many shitheads, there's some very beautiful parts of that area. Some of, I mean, the most beautiful sunsets I've ever seen. Yes.

We're in Iraq. Yeah. I actually have a really cool photo of getting medevacked, the Black Hawk flying away. and like the sun is setting, it's like, it's super cool. I'll show you. I mean,

except for what was happening. Yes. I get these. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if it was somebody else, that'd be an even bigger picture.

Yeah. Well, so we're flying in on these CH47s and, uh, they're like, as we do one pass, like we see like smoke hitting,

like they're hitting the caves and like you can kind of hear it over the rotors. Not, not really. I think it's just, I felt like, I could hear it. But anyways, I'm flying over. I remember thinking to myself, like, wow, this is absolutely beautiful. And then we land and go up over this mountain. And it's like eerily quiet. Like it was, it was really weird. And then next thing, you know, like, we hit the

limit of advance. The machine gunners just start opening up. Snipers start opening up because they had targets of opportunity. And I was like, holy shit. Like, there's still people that are moving around. But then my Iraqis did not want to move. They were like, I'm not going. So it's like, okay, like I'll pop some smoke, we'll pop up over this thing, and then we'll start advancing. So I did it for them, and then we get to this part, blah, blah, blah. We get to this one cave, and we're starting to do our SSC, our site-sensitive exploitation. Yes. Which essentially is, I'll be the best way to describe SSC.

You're kind of collecting, most of the time it happens, at least in a building it would be after the objective is secure. And you're going back through every room and you're gathering intelligence, essentially. Yeah, yeah. You're bagging stuff, your pictures, drawings, depending on what it is you have. But you're collecting available intelligence. That's probably the best way to put it. Yeah, yeah. Kind of like when you're watching cops.

Like, I think cops are going back through the vehicle and they're collecting all the usable information and all the drugs out of there. So I had just thrown in this ASM, anti-structural munition grenade. It's almost like a full pound of C-4 in this grenade, which is super cool grenade, by the way. Yeah. Is it a thermobaric? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

We just called them T-bombs. T-bombs? Okay. Yeah. They're amazing. Yes. Assuming you're not in the building. Yes.

I had, so that was like our SOP or standard operating procedures. Like if we had a cave within eye shot, like it was either getting a full satchel, depending on the cave entrance and how deep we were going to make entrance. Or it would get one of those and then I could peek in. Yep. So through that in there and then I start to come up. I guess I wasn't like in an SSE phase. I was more in the initial type of clear. But it was, this one was very shallow.

So anyways, I get up there. This ASM had completely dusted this dead ISIS fighter. And like, I'm staring at this guy. And meanwhile, like, all of this had happened, my team chief, which is, I don't know, who, what do you guys call your highest enlisted in a seal troop? In a troop, that would be the troop chief. So a troop for us would be two operational elements of probably 16. Each would have a chief, an AOC, and OIC.

Then that would cascade up to the troop chief and troop commander. Okay. Yeah. So our troop chief, which we call our team chief, Yep. Highest enlisted in the team got a little antsy at some point and broke off the back half of the element. It was like, hey, we're going to go check out this cave. ends up rabbit-holling down the mountain into this valley

that now the support by fire couldn't see them. So they had to displace, change their position to go see them as well for, you know, create a new support-by-fire position there. Meanwhile, I'm looking into this cave and I'm about to make entry and then next thing you know, like, just hell opens up behind me.

And these dudes get contact, explosions, automatic machine guns, like all of this shit starting to happen at once. And I was like, okay, like no big deal. Like they're in contact. They've got this. And then I hear over the radio like there's a casualty. And then there's an eagle down.

And like all of this is happening with like in a split second. And I was like, all right, they've got it. And then there's another eagle down. I was like, no way, dude. My stomach dropped like super fast. And I told my Iraqi partner for us. I was like, you guys watch this cave. Like make sure nothing comes in.

Nothing goes out. I'll be back. And I just ran down there most like untactics. manner I could, but like passing these other cave entrances with like bags and blankets like stacked up. So I'm like, okay, these are fighting positions. Just give them a couple rounds a piece. I don't know if there's anybody in there or not. How far? It was probably, it was a train feature away. So I mean, maybe distance right now for my memory is not. I'll say 200 yards. but like very rocky very difficult terrain to move in and I had in my back I had a whole lot of

explosives because I knew that we were doing cave clearance so like I I loved I had a full satchel charge and I had like some makeshift bangalores that we made that are smaller but like just basically debt cord wrapped up in a piece of C4 and stuff like that so but a full satchel charges, I think, I want to say it's like 16 blocks of C4. It's a dizzy. Yes. First off, how underrated is the Bangalore torpedo? I mean, as a weapon.

Oh, man. I can't believe we don't, we didn't use them more, but we used them. They're kind of hard to carry around. That's true. I mean, it's like a four foot, five foot long, like. He looked like a dude, be like, why is that guy carrying these huge dildos around the combat stuff? Yeah.

Because they're just like, fuck. Yeah. Is that a sword? Like, what? Yeah. What is that guy doing? And then it goes off. You're like, oh, I like those.

Yes, yeah. Yeah, we actually used a whole bunch. Like, we would rig the insides of these caves and tunnels and blow. It was. We only did it in training. We used them for underwater stuff in training. And even then, I'm like, these are fantastic. It was cool.

Yeah. I enjoyed it. Like, the whole, like, art of actually, like, whipping the end of a Bangalor anyways. Yeah. So I had a very heavy rock on. I had a lot of explosives in there. And when I get there, I, I, I could tell like there was some crazy shit going on.

There was like people just sitting though frozen. It was like the most bizarre sight. Um, both. Damn. Yeah. So overwhelmed. Yes. By OBE.

Overwhelmed by events. Yes. Um, the majority were Iraqi, but, um, a couple smoking cigarettes as per. So.

It's probably never stopped. Just chain smoking. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. Um. But so my first reaction was I'm throwing off my ruck and I'm jumping in to whatever is going on.

So I ended up jumping into this ravine and there's one French guy in there. And he is, his guns oriented north up this little ravine. I was trying to talk to him, say, hey, man, where are the casualties? Where's the enemies at? And he's just not talking. Guns fixated. So I'm like, right, there's my answer. So I start low crawling up on this big boulder.

And as my head crests over, I see this like dark cave entrance, like the mouth of this cave rocks stacked up and like, I mean, very, very insane looking entrance. And I mean, it was a split second because as soon as I saw it, they saw me and just like start pinning me down. And I mean, this, it was very close, like probably as close as these walls this way together, how close the little ravine was that we were in. And so, I mean, it was, it was absolutely insane, but I saw a body when I went up there. And, um, my, um, my, first thought was like this dude's dead like there's no way that that person is alive right now and this guy keeps yelling at him and he's like roll roll roll next thing you know these legs just fly up in the

midst of all of this gunfire so i just chicken wing my gun and just start blazing i'm shooting and shooting and i run up there and i grab this dude and i pull him down push him down the rocks and i feel this guy grab him and i'm just like laying down suppressive fire for him and then um as soon as they or as soon as he pulls them out, like we get more people to help and kind of drag him off. And so I stay in there and keep fighting to try to, you know, suppress them as much as possible so they could get out. Would you have an M4? M4 with a 203 on the bottom. Of course.

Yeah. Yeah. I thought that was leadership was to carry the heaviest stuff. You have to bring the golden egg to the party. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, for people listening, a 203 goes underneath the barrel.

And it's a 40 millimeter grenade launcher. very distinct funk as it goes out and yeah you're hucking an explosive charge hundreds of hundreds of yards probably even at max ordinate yeah yeah and I was shooting those danger close that whole time what is it 33 yards for those things

in arms yeah because they got to do a full PZioelectric fuse you have to the centrifugal force yeah yeah there was actually one maybe two that I shot that just went and smacked and I was like okay I'm a little too close So that was when I was up on top of the cave.

But anyway, so once that happened, somebody finally threw a smoke in there. Once it filled up, I was able to get out of there, got out, and then we kind of re-came up with a plan, which was, there was no plan. It was just like, I got to go up there and see. I got to identify where the casualties are. So I started crawling up and the snipers are walking me up and they said, hey, I think that there's a body right here. Just keep going, keep going.

And as soon as I... It's like, I'm walking on these huge, huge rocks. And I knew what I saw down there, but I didn't know now, like, how high I actually was. And so I was walking on the roof. And I had to go very, very... The roof of the cave they were in. Yeah.

Okay. And so as I get to the edge, like, I see one of the bodies, and I knew immediately, like, that he was gone. And I go up a little bit closer and then I see the other one off to the side. And like he was a little bit more believable. Maybe he was alive because he was sitting up. Hand was on his gun still and like this hand was back. So he was like actively trying to scoot back. And so I whispered his name and like nothing. And then I said it. So the cave opening,

you're up above looking back down in this direction. Yeah. Okay. Yep. And so I tried. you know, talking, whispering, confirming, and they were gone. So I went back. I called up to the commander and I told him and that's when like the real like level black set in on people. They were like, how are Mo and Diego gone? Mo. So Diego was the team chief. And then Mo was the was the executive officer of the company. So this turned into a big SOTIF level wide operation. stands for special operations task force for people. Yes, yep. And so the executive officer of the company should not be involved in that.

So before he was, this guy was my team commander on my previous deployment and then got promoted up to be the executive officer of the company. So anyways, we joked before the mission. I was like, Mo, I'm just going to give you my extra mags when I need them, like come up and resupply me, you know, and, um, like, you can carry all the extra water and stuff, which ironically, he actually gave me his only water because my camelback broke on the bird on the way in. So anyways, like, it was very shocking. And that was like one of those moments to me where I was like, this is way more complex than, than I could even imagine looking down there and

then looking down the line of the guys that I had. I'm like, well, this dude's got kids. He's got kids. like he's married and I was like I'm I'm the only one that I can sacrifice here like I can't task these dudes to go down here because he's going to die to go in this way because I knew how real it was like I just I just witnessed it and now these guys are dead and so it became very much of a a recovery mission at that point and so I talked to the snipers I was like I trust you guys just trust me I was like I need you to suppress as much as you can I'm going in there And I go in there and as soon as I reach the edge of that cave, like just opening up, like from all different angles, which is weird because of my... You mean the edges in the opening to the cave?

Yeah. So like, right? So if I was on top of this table, I would try to go up there to like, like Fletcher, you know, I would try to get as close as I could. But Diego was really far down there. It was probably 15 feet to reach him. But if Mo was awake, he could have reached me. And that's like that vision that's burned into my head. I can see him reaching up to me.

Yeah. But he never did. And so I would go up to this cave and I would lean over and I would look. I would wash these people and I would shut my grenades at them. And I would try to hit them with my grenades because I'm trying to, you know, get enough lull in the fight to jump down there. But somehow I'm getting shot from like my snipers are not shooting me. It's like something they're shooting at these guys and then we're also taking fire from all

of these other different spots. We thought it was ricochets or whatever. Well, so then I would come back and then I'd go back in. I would take the high concentrate smokes and I would try to smoke them out and I would do that. But then fire, they would just increase their fire and I just could not get a big enough lull. So I stepped back. I had them shoot Carl G's in there. We had ASM, like the thermobaric rounds for the Carl G's. We had ADP. That cave was eating crows. Carl G rounds. And then I called in Apache. So the Apache needed a 10-digit grid, even though they could see, they still needed it for their computers or whatever.

So I stood on top of the cave and I gave it to him and I was like, just shoot a meter below me and you'll hit. So they shot 220, 30 millimeters and no effect. Didn't even break some of the defense stackings that they had. So then we did a hellfire. What? And the hellfire hit, but I want to say it zinged off the top as well. So I was like, I was danger close to this one as well. And he was like, hey man, like I can still see you.

like you need to move up and over. I was like, I'm not moving. Like, I need to keep situational awareness. I have no more water. I'm very low on ammo. I'm tired. I'm not moving. Send it, big boy.

Yeah. He's like, okay, just get low. And like, so I was like, okay, Roger that. And I told everyone, I was like, just get lower. Like, and so then we all get low. And it's just, that was the most bizarre thing. Like, seen when I was like, holy shit, here it comes. And, yeah.

So, yeah. And then when the snipers were like, yeah, no effect. I was like, no fucking way, dude. So then that's when I called up to the commander. I was like, all right, man, one more time. I'm going in one more time. If we can't figure it out here, then we'll pull off. But like, their option was to drop a 500 pounder on there.

It was like, absolutely not. Yeah. Like, I can deal with a, like, a more precision fire of a hellfire, but you drop a bomb on there that you're dropping a bomb on our guys. Like, that's not going to happen. But nobody was thinking. You know, I was like, there's got to be something else. Like the QRF, it's our same guys.

Like, there's got to be another way. So then they ended up calling in the ETF, the Delta Force guys. They were there. I don't know if they were in Syria or if they were in Iraq. It doesn't matter where they were. But so they started to get spun up. And I didn't really know about that time period when I was still down there. my the only koa that I was actively fighting against was coa's course of action was them

trying to drop a bomb on there I was like first of all we dropped bombs on all of these caves already and we know that it didn't kill everybody so you're just going to drop it on our people we're not doing that so anyways I go back up there for this final attempt we get everybody online and we start shooting at every random cave and anything that we could see that looked like a fighting position. I was like, I'm going to get it and I'm going to go in there and pull at least one of them out. Mo is a 240 pound dude plus kit was like 300 pounds. I don't know how I'm going to do this, but superhero, right? Yeah. And it's not like a barbell. It's not a I hate to use the term dead weight, but in this situation, that's what we're talking about. It is not a linearly loaded barbell. Yeah. You could take a 200 pound human being, which you could maybe rep on a barbell. And it is hard to describe. Yeah. how hard it is to move. Yeah.

Yeah. There's no momentum. There's no nothing. Like, it's not stiff. Yeah. There's no rigidity. It's like a sandbag,

essentially. Yeah. Yeah. So anyways, I felt committed, felt ready. I went up there. I put my right foot on the very edge of,

like, just gaining a little bit of like, in my confidence stance or something, whatever it was, like right on the edge of the roof of the cave. And then just fucking, back. I was like, oh my God, what was that? And I like kind of rolled back and like scooted back down towards my medic and was like, dude, I think I just got shot. And he's like, what do you mean

you think you got shot? That's like my fucking leg hurts. And so like we look down and it's like just trickling blood out. And I was like, he cut my pant leg off and was like, holy shit, like what happened? and so he tries to like do a quick evaluation and he's like stand up and I could not hardly put any weight on there and immediately it starts setting in I was like oh no dude like I'm not going to be able to get these guys I'm not I'm not going to be the one and now I'm leaving all of my junior guys out here somebody's going to die and like all of these thoughts like within milliseconds or running through my head and then I was like just don't call in the night of back yet. Like I was like, don't tattel tail on me. You know, like I don't want to. Stitches get stitches,

bitch. Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. And he's like, well, dude, like, I mean, you can't walk. I was like, no, I'm fine. Like, let's just, let's just tell him that we're going to regroup and we'll go make another plan. And so, like, I'm trying to maintain my composure and take, make all these calls. I'm like, sir, we're going to back off. We're going to go make this other plan. And then I hear him call back in. And he's like, why are you limping? Because they're watching from the support by fire and I was like I didn't answer and the next thing you know my medic comes up after because they were like going to carry me up and I said no man like I'm gonna walk up that we need all the guns in the fight that we can and then on the walk up there like as I'm crying like a baby like they were like

just take the damn lollipop like we called in your medevac you're going home and that's when it it really set in and I was like fuck like because then you know when you get medevac you got a hand over serialized gear. So I'm handing over my serialized gear and stuff like that when we finally reach into a position. Not while I'm walking, but I'm handing over my mags. And I was like, dude, I fucking failed. And then next thing, you know, like I, they had to hoist me out because the, the train was so steep. So they sent a hoist down, picked me up, took me up there. And then like, you know, the last thing I remember was like, hey, how's your pain? I was like, it hurts. and then

and then... Okay, hole. And then back into the recovery. What aspect of that in the moment did you feel like you had failed? I mean, again, I'm unfamiliar with that exact terrain, but listening to you talk about everything that you tried and coordination and different angles.

What part of that did you feel like you had failed? I... So during the workup, I felt like I was the mediator. for the team between like a good leader and a semi-reckless leader. And I was mentoring these younger guys into what I was bred into for the last two rotations of that team. And I'm not trying to talk ill on the dead or anything like that.

But this guy, he was wild. He was kind of reckless as a leader at times. It happens. We have issues with all units. have issues with that. Yeah. And so I would, I would be that, that mediator for these guys and I would try to calm them down. And like, I was very aggressive as well. Don't get me wrong. But like, I was still very tactically sound. And sometimes there was decisions that were not so that way, especially during operations that we did that I had to tell dudes like, don't pay attention

to that. Do the right thing. You know the right thing. So when I got put into that situation, I felt like, okay, now eyes are on me. I need to lead these guys to success because I've done it in training already and they know that they can rely on me. And then I felt like I let them down by that. So like I felt like I let my guys down that were watching, but then also that like now it was my turn to like help this guy that kind of put us in that situation. And I felt responsible. I felt like that was me that was supposed to bring them out because I had been fighting for the last five hours to get them. And when I, when I wasn't the one, it was like, yeah, I failed. But that's where like people were like,

dude, but you tried for so long. Like, how can you say that's a failure? I get it. No, I understand. Yeah. Did they, did the people in the cave, did they allow those two to approach and then just basically ambush them right at the lip of the cave, it sounds like? No. So the, um, if like, Like, if this is the mouth of the cave, or I guess like this, this right here would be the mouth of the cave for you. They found it up on top. They sent the French guy down this way. And Mo and Diego went this way to like pie off, kind of. Well, as soon as this dude came down, slid down this rock wall to like start pieing, he was in the fatal funnel.

And they immediately opened up on him. but only shot him in through and through in the left leg, I believe, and then in the top of the head. Somehow, two shots, helmets work, fucking hit the top of his helmet, went like down like this and like gave him a nice haircut. I still talk to that dude to this day. But then these two like quickly kind of came down to add suppressive fire, but they were literally in a window, like in a gunport. You could see the smoke. I can show you some pictures of the cave. It's absolutely bizarre.

You could see the burned smoke from how much they had shot out of this thing. And they just lit them both up. Like Diego fell off and like right into the front. And then Mo kind of fell right where he stood. Fuck. Yeah. So it was just like it was very intense. I can only imagine.

I don't know what else you could have tried, man. I know you said you have a different relationship with it now, which I'm glad to hear. But from somebody hearing that story for the first time, I don't. I mean, I don't know what else you could have tried. Anything else would have probably, there's an argument to be made that you were pushing the envelope with safety as it was. I do like the description of trying to physically hit people with grenades. I like that a lot. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I could seem... That's my favorite part of the story. Yeah. Did you cook any off or did you just let them go? There was one that I did for like not even a full second. I'm too much of a pussy you took off for the page. It's not like the movies.

No, it's not. Yeah. I mean, we're talking military ordinance here. Like I don't trust the second delays that we've got or whatever, three seconds. I, no, hard pass. Looks great in the movies. Yeah. I wouldn't have the balls for that either.

I mean, I think sometimes you get put into situations that don't have an actual, solution. So you were medevacked out. How did they eventually, how did that day end? So we, when I got medevacked, the French guy had just gotten medevacked earlier before that, both wound up back

in her beel and then that night once the sun went down, the Delta Force guys came in. They tried using their tools. They tried using drones. They tried doing callouts. And I, I, I want to even say I could be making this up.

I don't even know. But I think that they might have tried to bribe them with money, maybe, saying like, hey, just let us get our guys and then we're gone. I might have made that up. I don't remember. I know that they used drones and they were trying to call them out. I could see that as plausible, to be honest. I mean, exhaust every possible scenario that you can.

And so they used our actual skills and advantages of being in nighttime, but they ended up going in making entry not very far, I don't think. I don't know the specifics, but they ended up killing like four more guys inside of that cave. And then a suicide bomber vest guy cranked off in there and blew two of the guys off of the top of the cave that I was on and down into the thing. So a couple dudes got wounded. Long story short, they ended up recovering those guys, had a hell of a fight getting in there. And which crazy because I talked to some of the unit guys still today and they're like, dude, that was one of, it was a very memorable time for us because it was intense for us. And we couldn't imagine doing it during the day for you guys. Like, which was the, another crazy part about that is like we own the night. Why did we not go in at night?

I was going to ask you what led to that decision. We literally waited on the freaking airfield until the sun came up. Did you ever get an answer as to why for that? No. Well, one assumption was that our partner force was scared to go in at night because they weren't comfortable training on nods, which was that was like almost all the training we did with them was on nods. We cleared some caves on nods.

And I'm like, it was just, there were so many things in the plan. approval process that was just like I understand that you guys when you want to get your hands a little dirty but like at for what yeah I mean but at the time like I'm I didn't want to question things like that but I was like man I can't believe we're going in with this high of numbers against against the odds you know I mean we always come in pretty stacked pretty heavy but 19 seven to 19 fighters like that's quite a jump it's quite a jump and I don't care how you are if they have the terrain advantage on you like it sounds like they did yeah home term you know home field advantage one terrain advantage to go with that seems like pre designated firing positions for

them reinforced i mean that's how you turn a numerically smaller force into something that you may not be able to untick them out of that terrain yeah dude yeah i think uh the j sock guys uh used their organic assets after the fact when we got everybody out of there and they dropped like 20,000 pounds of bombs on that one cave just to like clear out the rest of the ants if there was anybody else in there. So, man. Yeah. Pretty nuts. That's a rough afternoon at work.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Are you out of the woods now with how you feel about it? with yeah so you know i've done a lot of i've done a lot of work um the pain was a constant reminder for me every day i would wake up i'd immediately think of you know everything that went wrong and all this stuff and so once the pain kind of subsided and i was able to start setting goals and living my life and like really like you know i had a problem for a while thinking that like if i was going to happy, they somehow I would I would lose the memories and like I wouldn't be the same anymore.

So I would like always like as soon as I would get happy, I would do something to ruin my happiness and be like, no, I need to like cause some chaos or something like that. It was insane thinking like when you're in that space. But eventually like through a lot of work, the whole plant medicine like ayahuasca ended up like just cracking my shell open and I I think like saving my life honestly, like the for the long term of things and my relationship and all of this stuff. So it took me a while to to build that new relationship. But once I was able to forgive, I held grudges against people, commanders against all that stuff. Decision makers you never even met. I totally get it. Yeah. But it was it was hard. It was hard.

hard. And I still have like, so sometimes when I would share my story, especially on earlier days of like doing podcasts and stuff, it would jack me up for weeks. I'd relive it. I'd get all of these like weird emotions and all this stuff and it'd be so hard to like dissipate that energy back. But now it's like kind of how we were talking about like using it good or evil. I really realize that like I'm trying to use this so much for the good side of things. So the reasons why I'm sharing my story is hopes that somebody, one person, one listener, like, can get something from this, some sort of life lesson or some sort of comeback and realize that, like, you can make a change and you can go from the darkest parts of your life to now life and, like, being a good person,

being a good husband, father, dad, whatever it is. Like, there's, if you do, if you define your life by stuff that's happened to you, it will take you down. Like you have to you have to look at that as a part of life and you have to look at that as an event that's happened, but like not necessarily move on and forget about it, but grow a relationship with it where you can accept it. Because it's just like that quote that says like, what does it, accept the things that you cannot change or wisdom? Oh my gosh. I don't know a lot of good quotes. Michael? it's uh what does it have the wisdom to accept the things you do not change michael google the rest of that because there's something after that yeah that's the beginning and i've said it several times i should know

this by now god grant me the serenity to accept the things i cannot change the courage to change the things i can and the wisdom to know the difference yes we each together got portions of that run yeah however we can't be we are a bunch of dipshit we are a bunch of dipshits I opened with almost every episode. So how do you feel about the metal today? Where are you going, Fletcher? Oh, come on, Oprah. What's up, dude?

You know, I put my uniform on last November for a veteran's ball that we hosted in Jackson Hole. And it was the first time that I actually had like a full stack of medals on my chest in my blues. And I was like, you know what? Like, I accept it now. I, if I'm going to wear this in honor of them,

I think I can do it for the right reasons. And it's still heavy, but it, you know, it's people, I don't know, people look up to it now. And if I can be that light that helps them. They should. They should look up to it and it should be heavy. Yeah. I think if it's ever light, that's probably not a good thing.

Right. You know, I got to go back to the Marsok. I went back a couple weeks ago to North Carolina. My old unit was getting back from deployment. They had a very complex deployment. It was when a lot of strange things were going on with Iran. and they called me and they said, hey, we want Talon's Reach team to come out and lead like a decompression seminar.

And like, which brought me this like immense amount of joy because I'm like, holy crap, this is going to be full circle. Like I'm going to go back and help these dudes decompress. I don't know how I'm going to do it, but I'm going to figure it out. Like the first active duty program we've ever done. And so like I got all giddy about it and was like, dude, I get to go back and like maybe mentor some young kids and show them young kids. Like they're adults.

But yeah. Dude, but they are. Yeah, in hindsight. Yeah, machine guns, though. Yes. They, they, yeah, oh, three. Yeah, exactly. Dude, it was, it was bizarre, though, you know,

standing in front of them now as, as this person. But I was like, I, like, you know, I don't like this term, but, like, look, I walked the walk. Like, I'm not just talking the talk, like, but I walked the walk with you guys. And I know that if I would have known some of these cheat codes when I was active, I would be that much better of an operator I'd be that much better of a person.

I'd have so much more capacity in my mind to be able to take on more load. Like there's a real thing, like the allocatic load, your psyche, your physiological body can only take so much stress before it implodes. And so if you don't have a way

to effectively offload that stuff, it's just going to keep building and building like a pressurized freaking pressure cooker and then it's going to have to off gas somewhere. And more than likely it's going to happen to your family. It's going to happen in shitty situations to a barista. It's something, you know? It's like, it's got to go somewhere.

It expresses itself in a way it comes out at the seams. Yeah. How was it received when you went back and stood in front of those guys? I think to the majority it was very well received because they looked at me and they were like, this dude, he has been through it. And he has, you know, like, because I tried to go back and do some speaking things there when I was a fucking wreck. And it was, I was like, I'm never being invited back to Marsock.

Like, that was, it was a, it was a one for the books for sure. I will never open again. And I was like, it was very embarrassing. But luckily that was only to the, some of the higher level people I was supposed to go to this. Perfect. It was ridiculous. I can't believe it. I had this nasty, slicked back hair.

And like, I was, I was. I was absolutely still drunk from the night before. Anyways, going back now, leading a good example, I've been sober for four years, like all of this stuff. Like I'm living what I'm trying to preach. And I was telling them, like, I'm not, you know, prepping you guys for transition. I really want you to become that much more resilient to all of this stuff that you're going to deal with. Because at one point, yes, you will transition. But however, like, you need to be the best operator you can, now and how, what steps can you take to achieve that? One is knowledge.

Like, if you can identify these things early and often, then you can take actions to be able to downregulate or, like, find the volume knob to turn these things down because so many times we try to find the light switch to just turn it off. And it's with the bottle. It's with working harder. It's with working out harder, which working out is a great tool to help downregulate or whatever. But as soon as you go back home after shooting Carl G's on the wrong,

range and now you're drinking. It's like you're only exacerbating or prolonging those effects of the battlefield or training field or wherever you know. So anyways, like we did this huge educational seminar with them and then I had them in the grass, shoes, socks off, doing breathwork.

Like it was freaking awesome. I had 100 active duty guys just laying in the grass doing breath work. And I was like, yes. Like, I have done it. I am back and I'm like, you know, putting my hippie out there and it was it was actually there was you could tell that there was guys who were like yeah whatever but i had every single one of them talk and say how how did you feel after that and you know

maybe some of them only gave me a thumbs up but some of them were like that was great and i really feel like i can relax right now i was like and that's it like all you need is one tool going forward if you can have a little bit of down regulation you can have a little bit of you know that volume not to turn down you can add more. You can downregulate. You can add more. It can make them more lethal. I think that's the key to talking to people in that community is, I think their worry is,

oh yeah, gets them. That's Irba Matae. Get some. Cuberman. Caffeine in here? Yes. Do you like caffeine? I do.

There's two. It doesn't, what? You don't have an off switch? Drink that thing. Thoughts you a Marine. Don't be listening. There we go. Stigma, it's still alive.

That's, I think the biggest worry in a lot of those communities is, is if they, we'll say the woo-woo stuff, right, super broad term. But, and it's not woo-woo, it's just very different to what they're used to, which is ballistic, boom, bang, things going downstream. Good, right? Yeah, it's good. Yeah, it's good. Yeah. That's his company.

Oh, yeah. So they were worried that you're going to dole the blade, but the reality is, like you said, it gives them the capacity because they can downregulate and they're not at a 10 all the time. You actually can re-escalate and maybe get yourself to an 11. Right. When you need to be. Yes. And then back off or 11 and a half. You can actually get way more lethal by expressing what you need to at the right time and then getting out of that.

And of course, I didn't know any of this when I was in whatsoever. Yeah. Because it wasn't being talked about at all. Somebody would have told me for us had been like, oh, let's go lay in the sand right at the beach and put our feet in the sand. Like, fuck off. Yeah. And now it's just now I understand what it is that they were talking about or what that people are talking. about now because like I said, this was not a topic of conversation while I was in. But it's not,

it's not an attempt to dole the blade. It's actually a roundabout way to sharpen it. Yeah. And if they can, if they can wrap their head around that, not only does it allow them to be sharper in the moments where I think it counts the most, I think it extends careers as well to. Yeah. And hopefully by proxy to that family relationships too, because I don't know what it is in the Marine Corps or Marine Corps soft, but in, you know, Navy soft, the forest rate, sky high. Oh, yeah. It's unbelievable. Yes.

Again, the job suffers last. So you'll kill yourself literally, metaphorically, figuratively for that job. Everything else suffers first. Yeah. So, yeah. So wildlife. Yeah. For sure.

Man. I wouldn't trade it. But if I, you know, if I knew more about some of this stuff, I would definitely have taken, I would like to say this now. I would feel like I would have taken some of it more seriously. I really wish I wouldn't have drank so much while I was in. And like that, your first chapter opening up to your experience. But dude, you make such good points. It's like how do you, how do we get like punished with like drinking, but yet say the opso had three DUIs? Yes. It's like, oh my God. Listen everybody. You're.

out of here if you drink and drive. Kegger at noon. Fucking new guys. Better be the last one. I'm just like, dude, I drove to work. Yeah. Meanwhile, the skipper's name at that time,

Captain Morgan. Yeah, fitting. Navy Captain, not Marine Corps Captain. Very different things. Yeah. You got to be careful on those phone calls. Because I call a Navy guy. When I was doing my ops job,

I'd be like, this is Captain so-and-so. I'm like, this is a Navy office or Marine Corps office? Because these are very different people that we're talking to here. Yeah. Talking to an 03 or an 06 at this point. Yeah. Yeah. No, that was all, it was, it was speaking, it's funny, the Urban Monte talking with Huberman.

He asked me, because we were talking about drinking, because I was trying to be open about my experience. And again, it's not, it wasn't doctrinal in the military, but it was ingrained culturally. And I've actually heard that the modern day teams have moved away from that, which I think is a net positive. But Huberman said, he goes, I can't believe I'm going to ask this question on my show. This show is notoriously, first of all, I had to tell him to talk to me like a golden retriever. Yeah, yeah. But notoriously like health maxing, fitness maxing, longevity. He goes, is there an argument to be made for drinking?

Yeah. I had to say to him. You know, I've had probably the most embarrassing times in my life, just underperforming the person I wanted to be as a human being because of drinking, but also some of the most hilarious bonding, camaraderie building events. as well, a social lubricant when I was younger. I can't talk to anybody. I'm going to go talk to that girl.

You know what I mean? Yeah. For me, I probably needed a little bit of that. So it's not that I don't want people to have those experiences, but I also don't want them to suffer the consequence. So, again, not for me to say either way, I wouldn't take back some of the experiences I had when I was drinking. And I have had a healthier relationship with alcohol.

I've always just been able to put it down. Yeah. There's certainly been times where I've drank more, and there's been years where I didn't drink at all. Like at this phase of my life, I might have a glass of wine twice a year. I just, I'm not really feeling interested in drinking. Yeah.

Not that it's an unhealthy relationship, just not as interested. I really like sleeping. Yeah. And waking up feeling better. Not everybody's like that. But that culture at the time that I was in, I can see not causal for some of the things that happened

later on to people, but almost everybody of my friends who has made the decision to kill themselves was not sober at the time. So there is a correlation there for sure. For sure. You can't blame that specifically on the military, but when your ops officer tells you you have to be the last guy at the kegger,

we should probably talk about the consquets. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. You know, like, sorry, bud. Knife cuts both ways on that one. And the hilarious thing is if you were to get a DUI,

you'd be standing in front of that dude as part of the mass process before going to X-O-Y, and he'd be asking you, why'd you get drunk at work? I told you not to drink and drive. You also told me I had to be the last person to leave together. Which one was I supposed to listen to? Sir? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. God. Pretty backwards. Talk to me about Talon's reach. What do you got going on? Yeah. So. And where'd you come up with the name? Do Talens have an inordinately long reach that I am unaware of?

Eagles do. Okay. Talons are on their fingertips. Yes. Or their toesies. Yeah. They're toesies. Yeah, I like that.

Yeah, you have kids. I do. They're all old now. Yeah. So how old are you? It's still ingrained. You have a four. Boy or girl?

Girl. I, so my daughter just turned 18. Oh, man. I struggle. And she's my youngest. Yeah. And my middle son just turned 21. My oldest turns 23 in October.

I struggle every time that I think of them, not to think of them at the age where I was holding them. Yeah. So that's never going to disappear. Oh, yeah. The first thought that comes to my mind, and I don't know why, and maybe that's just the way it is for parents, it's when they're super young.

Yeah. Even though I know she's 18. So I remember giving her her first bath, you know, or holding her for the first time. Yeah. It's tough. So, yeah, they're, she likes to remind me she's no longer a child. I'm like, listen, in the eyes of the law,

you are no longer a child because you're 18 now. And let me just tell you, that's all that changed. Right. Yeah. Yes. If you mess up, they may not. call me now. Yeah, that's true. Yep. So you might get to call me from jail as opposed to the cops calling me before you go to jail. That's the only difference that's happened. Right. But yeah,

I've got kids. So the eagle tozies are very long. Yes. Yep. Well, so. And Marley, by the way. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, that. So anyways, before I get in a rabbit hole. So, you know, when you guys were over at six, did you guys call? each other eagles. Yes. Okay. So that was like one of those, the terms that was burned into my head,

like the eagle down. So I didn't know if like tier one guys are different. You guys use eagle. Like if they're in a hallway, they'd say eagle, eagle. We would say blue, blue. But I'm pretty sure. Yeah, when you're talking about casualties

or people that were expectant, those eagles. Yeah. So that, you know, for listeners, I guess, like eagle is a term during combat operations for USDA confliction type of thing.

You know, Eagle, Eagle, Eagle, confirm with Eagle, Eagle, Eagle, Eagle. So when we were coming up with the concept of Talons Reach Foundation, we didn't know the name that we were going to call it. And, but I knew I was like, hey, I want to call the participants Eagles. I don't know why, but it's just,

it's very fitting to me that, like, when they come out, like, this is what we can call them. Not, I don't know why we needed a name, but we did. And so then, going back and trying to look at names and figuring it out, July 10th of 2017, there was a C-130 that crashed over Mississippi. And there were 15 Marines and one Navy corpsman on there

or a special amphibious reconnaissance corpsman from Marsock. Seven of those guys were in my company. And one of them was Tallinn Leach. And Tallinn was one of my best friends. We went through selection together. We went through ITC together. and I got a call that night in 2017 that I had to go notify his wife.

And so I had to go, I put my service alphas on. I went and I knocked on her door and like did the whole nine, you know, and it was one of the hardest things in my military career that I've had to do. And because, you know, one, I was trying to grieve for him, then I had to help her and like, you know, alcohol was a real thing.

And it was just tearing me up. but you know i had to deploy in six months and we ended up leaving and so i i lived you know with that july 10th being like a very like symbolic day for me and uh somebody brought it up and they're like why don't we call it talons reach and uh you know we can use that as a metaphor for our guys our eagles like using their talons their reach to like you know pick up the the wounded ill injured or or, you know, guys who are struggling. Doesn't matter, senior, junior. It's like you have the ability to reach out

and help somebody. It's like, holy crap, that's it. So, like, our logo is an eagle talent. Like, the talent's, like, on the globe. So it's like we have global reach, you know. Well, so then from there, it was like, we kind of came up with the concept of what we want to do and how we want to do it.

Like, we were very good at the execution phase of things. I wasn't so good at the planning phase of things. So coming up with a nonprofit and figuring out how to raise money and all that shit was like the last thing that I knew how to do. But I knew what we wanted to do. And we created this program. We bring guys out for five days. We started actually here in Bozeman, not here in Bozeman, but down in Bozeman. and we we bring them out for five days all expenses paid fly them out first class we get them out in in a lodge each dude will have their own room um kind of like setting setting the grounds for like a very stress-free environment so they don't have to worry about anything from travel to where they're

going to stay they don't have to share a room with a snoring teammate or something like that but anyways we have this systematic approach to our five days where we educate them on different signs and symptoms that can arise, whether it's PTSD, traumatic brain injury, endocrine dysfunction, sleep like irregularities and

all sorts of different stuff. So we've crammed these into three different powerpoints throughout the week, and then we guide them through holistic modalities to combat that, whether it's yoga, meditation, mindfulness, art, music, all sorts of different things. So it sounds like a lot within five days,

because it is. It's very intense, very, very, like, emotionally draining because there's no substances allowed. There's no alcohol. There's nothing. It's all you, like, figuring out how you can use these tools to help downregulate from these certain life stressors. And so, like, you know, some people thought, well, it's going to be going there, sharing war stories and this and that. But, like, there's very little of that. Like, all the storytelling is really, like, guys just trying to figure out what the hell is going on. And it's great because it kind of covers. with all of those different education modules that we do. We've got Dr. Kate Pate.

She's a PhD in neurophysiology, comes out, has helped us build the curriculum. She leads most of the education. And we've just like, we've been able to really make a very deep impact. Skiped a section of it, but like with all the education, the modalities,

we get them outdoors, and we have like two full excursion days, if you will. So we'll go float the, float the rivers, we'll go explore through the mountains or side-by-side or snowmobile, season-dependent. But nothing like too activating, nothing too extreme, more of like a, like we've all, we've been going fast-paced long enough. Like this is for you to like slow it down and see like the beauties of the world around you and like have a slow intentional approach to

things. We've done 12 programs, helped 69 operators. We actually just had our first two female soft operators come through to open the door for our very first like all female soft program in November. I think it's groundbreaking stuff because it's going to hopefully help us open the door to spouses one day be able to give back to them because if we can help the whole family unit like I mean the the impact we're going to have soft wide is going to be unreal. But yeah man I mean with five days no treatment no diagnosing no medicine no nothing like that. It's just like you and yourself and your thoughts and like all of these emotions coming up, learning how to share. Like we've had some profound impacts on people like life changing

stuff, which is, you know, going from what we were talking about, like how do we lose the purpose along the way and like lose the identity of who we really are because we get lost in the identity of what we wanted to be. Like as kids with the dream of being an operator or serving, it's like I lived that and I bred that breathe breathed breathed who knows what is the past 10th of past tense of breathed lived and breathed yeah lived and lived lived and breath yeah I'm gonna go that and that's right so it was you know that was my life that's everything that I thought I was ever going to be and then when I left it I was like I will never be anything else but it's like no I've always been Nick Jones and like that is who I want to be. I want to be a father. I want to be myself. And like,

that's just what I did. And trying to help people relearn that is is more challenging than I would have thought and like how lost people get in that whole like transition. Even in active duty, like if they get benched or they get hurt, like injuries take people back to these super dark places, even though it's like we know we've recovered from one before. Why is this one any different. Why is it going to set us back so much where we get in this looping pattern of depression or whatever it is and then just start wrecking shit where it's like let's identify, let's recognize like that whole Oudaloo loop pattern. Let's use that to our advantage and start taking decisive actions to enhance our lives and better our situations, building our

fighting position as we go. I mean, everybody's got a unique story. Obviously, we are individuals is to a degree, but in those 69 people, are you seeing a lot of similarities and where people are being tripped up or what they're struggling with and dealing with? I think each program has its, um, it's kind of flavor to it on,

on what people are struggling with. Some is like, some are intense like family issues. Some are transition issues. Um, we have not had like one solid like, you know, baseline of stuff because,

you know, we've had some that are all, and it's weird how maybe it's when somebody sets the precedence during like our opening circle and the opening like kind of introduction. If like family is brought up or childhood is brought up next thing, you know, like that's like the theme and that's like everybody's digging into that. So it is, it kind of, it changes almost every program. And so it's, it's hard to to know what we're going to get in this next one. You know, it's like, what and that we've we talk about this on our prep is like what are we going to get on this one it's like there hasn't there hasn't been a very constant theme and we've done 12 of them so far and yeah it's it's been it's been great i think maybe because we were open to all branches so we've had

everything from um we've had i think two guys from dev grew now a couple dudes from delta um several the teams, Marsock, PJs, CCTs, all sorts of people. Green Berets and Rangers probably because of the biggest.

Those are our biggest clients, if you will. Yeah. Seeing the impact you have now, if you were given the choice, if you go back

and continue on active or keep doing what you're doing now, knowing what you know now, which one would you take? Well, knowing what I know now, I'm on the right

I've questioned it several times. Going back and like seeing the guys and the grind and stuff like that, it's funny because I said to a couple dudes, like I wish I could be where you are. However, I'm very grateful that I get to be where I'm at right now. It's funny like, you know, sometimes we wish that we wish that. we had what we don't have. But once you get it, you're like, yeah. And it's like, wait a second,

dude, I just, I just backpedaled and ruined all of this progress because I felt like I wanted to chase the dragon again. And, you know, I've had opportunities to go do the, um, anti-child trafficking stuff and contracting and this and that. And then like, I stepped in the ring to go box and do some stuff. And I'm like, I wanted, I'm chasing the dragon, dude. Like I wanted adrenaline and all of this stuff. Like I want combat in my life. And then, and then I look at my daughter. And then I look at my wife and I'm like,

but I actually just want to be a dad. I actually want to just help people. Like, I don't need to continue proving myself. And actually, ayahuasca is one of the ones that slapped me in the face this last time that I went and was like, slow the fuck down. You don't need to prove yourself. Quit trying to prove yourself.

like you don't need to keep getting hit you don't need to keep putting your family in harm's way it's funny because I'm saying this out loud and then in three months I'm going to find some crazy thing and I'm going to be like I should go do this and then my wife's going to slap me and be like well she doesn't hit me yeah but it's you know it's one of those I don't know it's it's interesting but I do I think that I've I've talked to people before and I fantasized about going back in, and people bring up this same question. Like, well, you know, you wouldn't be here doing what you're doing now,

so would you give that up? And I'm like, well, no, because I feel like I've saved lives now. Like, truly impacted, like, real impact. Because sometimes over there, it's hard to see, like, the bigger impact, the third order effects that we're actually doing, you know? There may be none. Yeah. I mean, let's be honest, taking a life is not hard.

Yeah. Investing in somebody and saving one. It's a lot harder. Yeah. Can be. And I think probably more meaningful. It's, uh, you, I think you have the ability now to probably have a greater impact on the world than you ever would have behind the sights of a rifle. As odd as that to say, you know, looking back on that type of career, which I wouldn't give back for anything.

But I guess I didn't realize until I, afterwards, the impact is real, but it's very limited and it's scope. Whereas what you're doing now, you may never actually be able to quantify the scope, because you won't know how far in that cascading downstream of if a father or husband is still here, the impact that that will have on other people for the remainder of their life. Tough to quantify that. Yeah. What else turns your screws?

What else are you getting in? I mean, you're young. You're like 20 years old. Yeah. Yeah. I feel sometimes I feel like it again. No. No, it's, yeah, it's funny.

I'm dealing with all these injuries and kinks and stuff. Oh, don't worry. That'll be gets worse. Yeah. Yes, I've heard. Especially as you, he has found his way into the jiu-jitsu, Michael. Very good. Which he hasn't trained in weeks because he has a sissy shoulder.

Yes, I've been there. So, yeah, like, you know, I've been chasing the dragon. found endurance sports trail running became one of my like great escapes and I did a 50 mile or last year. I'm not getting on board with me of this. Best thing about getting shot is never having to run again. Yeah. Well, it's I told him I was like, I want to run. I hated running in the Marine Corps and I want to do it now. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Just learn to fight. No running required. Yeah. And I think, you know, I started running because it was one of those challenges that. it was like when they told me I wouldn't be able to do it again, I was like, I'm doing it.

Yeah. And then when I tried, I tried Jiu-Jitsu several times. I was actually an extreme hater on it before because I thought it was super gay. Only 87% of it is. Yeah. The other 13% is super masculine, super-ish, masculine. It's just, it's neutral. Yes.

Yeah. I love it. I didn't, I resisted it so hard because as I was leaving the community and, even when I moved up here, my buddy got me into it. But I have that if people are over excited about one particular thing, I'm required to hate it or not participate. Like you're so enthusiastic that I hate whatever it is to do it. And I'm going to talk shit on it.

And I don't even know what it is. Maybe this is just the younger me. I don't know. I don't know if I've changed that much. So I resisted it for so long. I think I started training when I was 41. Okay. And now I'm like, God damn it, I could have started this in the late.

90s. Yeah. And I'd be whooping people's asses. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I know. It's, it's embarrassing maybe when a young kid comes in there and it's like, and they just roll me up. And they're like a woman that's like, I know, half my size. And I'm, well, I mean, that'd be really light, but like several pounds lighter. A nerd assassin rolls in. Yes. Who's like a CPA. Yes. And in his lunch hour just pretzels you. Yeah. It's humbling, but also kind of. it inspirational. Like, oh, you can do that. I'm going to learn how to do that too. And like, I used my aggression and strength and tried to just like put myself in these positions. And I'm like, wait a second, dude. Like I am like, I'm overworking. These people are like,

and just waiting for me to tense up and do this. And then I'm like, oh, my back and get thrown. And I'm like, dude, this is, this is crazy. So it's like that technical aspect, much like the boxing was, it's like, okay, I do actually enjoy this. Yeah. And a part that turned me away was any time somebody touched my leg was like laser beams in my, down my leg. So is that getting better? It is getting better.

It's like almost desensitizing. I still have a problem with Nogi when somebody touches like my bare skin. Maybe it's a mental thing and maybe I could wear like a leg guard or something. You ever heard of spats? No. Which is basically lower body rash guard. Okay. You could wear them sometimes.

Yeah. I have some and I'll use them if we're going to go to, shall we say, less, perhaps more suss gyms where the cleanliness and, you know. Yeah. But don't wash your belt. You're going to lose the magic. I'm like, listen, I don't believe in magic, but I believe in staff. Yeah. One of those is super real.

So I'm going to go ahead and wash my belts on the hottest temperature I can. And so I don't even know necessarily if it is a cleanliness thing, but it could be an additional layer. Right. And you just throw one under your shorts. Yeah. Yeah. and that might help for you. Yeah.

It would at least be an additional layer. Yeah. And also tell your training partners. Just be up front with them. You're like, listen, I got an issue with my right leg. And if you have high quality training partners, they should completely be able to work around that. Yeah.

I bet you it actually would desensitize it over time. Yeah. I think it has been, or maybe, you know, I'm getting less like that brain pain connection is starting to break. And it's like you're not actually in. You're not, you know, it's like over time when somebody touches it, I'm like, okay, it's, it's not there. But I don't know. We'll see. Another, I guess, fun thing that I've picked up in the recent years is the USPSA matches, which is another one of those like gaming practical application shooting.

Something that I can't believe we didn't do earlier in the military. Like, we think that it's not like, you know, it's not tactical shooting. However, like it's so fast. it's actually a lot of fun. A lot of carryover too. Yes. It doesn't have to be all. You don't have to carry a race gun. Yeah. Solid foundations or solid foundations. Yeah. I mean, I use a Glock just because I'm, I'm stuck in my ways and I don't want to get away from it, but I love it. I'm definitely, it's one of those things that's very humbling because there's either fat people or kids that will beat me. And I'm like, it's just nuts, dude. I'm like, yeah, like they're literally playing video games and they know how to game this, this whole system. And it's one of those things where I'm just a big brute that goes in there.

And I'm like, I'm just going to smash it. And then I try to move too fast and overstep and do this stuff. Totally. But it's really cool. Like those technical aspects of these sports, like I'm getting into. I'm trying to stay as young as I can and, you know, keep up with that. And I can't wait for my daughter to get older. She's really into Frozen and all this stuff.

And I'm like pointing at the tops of mountains, I'm like, well, Frozen lives up there. So me and you are going to go hike up there. And then we've got to hunt our way there. And I'm trying to get her into the hunting aspect. Do you have all the songs memorized yet? Pretty much. Let it go. Yeah.

That's how you know that you have a daughter. My God. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. My, God, my two sons, they love the movie, Spirit. Okay. Horse movie.

I think I've seen it a thousand times. Matt Damon is a horse, essentially. I mean, obviously you're early in the business phase with what you got going on in Jackson Hole with the shooting. Do you have any other aspirations or any other types of business that interests you? Or are you going to obviously get one going and sustaining first and then move on? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, all the mentors down there, they've got their hands in all sorts of different entrepreneurship stuff. But my wife would definitely be upset if I tried to invest in something

else right now. So I'm going to build this up to a very sustainable business to where, who knows, maybe the next adventure would be to branch off and build one in Bozeman or something like that. But it's right now, my wife has been self-employed for a long time, fitness and nutrition coach. She sells like bioactive peptides and like all of these like health conscious types of supplements. So she is insanely busy. I'm busy. But we try to, we really try to balance. And as soon as like we're home, it's like cut off from everything.

Like if we're putting our hands in too many pots, like we won't be there for our daughter. Yeah. We've got one daughter and we want to do it right. So, you know, that's one of those things. It's like if there is balance, I want to find it and I want to learn what it is. But I don't know. You know, there's got to be, you have to sacrifice time. You have to sacrifice time in business, but you also have to sacrifice from business to go be with your family.

I think that that's where the balance comes in is like, how successful do I want to be? Do I want to, you know, try to kill myself growing a multi-million dollar company or do I want to be a family man. I don't know. It's so hard to say because I have such expensive hobbies that I need to make money. You don't have to have an answer to that right now, though, either. To me, when I was younger, money was more about acquiring things. And then I think I came to the realization that many people do. The things are cool, but once you have acquired them, it's less, it's almost the idea of what you want is really cool. And then you get it and it is still cool. but then it's less cool because you have it

and you can access it whatever you want to. My theory now how money is, I just want to make enough money so I can do what I want to with my time. Yeah. So I can say no. It's my favorite one to opportunities. I'm like, nah, not today.

Yeah. Just another, nope, that's my answer to your business. You want to do this? Nope, I don't want to. I would rather, some people, and I know everybody knows somebody who's like this, their answer to how much money do you want to make is just more.

Right. And that's a tough one. And I'm not here to tell anybody how to live their life. And if you want to do that, by all means, please do. But I don't know how a feeling that is when it's just this is what you have, but what you need to have or you tell yourself is a little bit more and more and more. I just want to be able to spend time with my family and have memories. Not worry about pay.

Obviously, like enough money where I've done the years and literally years, weeks, days, months of how am I going to pay for groceries? So we don't have enough money for the more. I've been there. I've done that. I would say 10 out of 10 don't recommend, but also it gives you an appreciation for later in your life when you don't have to do that. So clearly make sure your bills are solid. And then for me, it's like, what are we going to do with this? That will be meaningful. Right. That's really all I care about at this point. Took time, though. And a lot of mistakes. God, a lot of mistakes. Yeah. Don't ever sit down and try to recalculate how much money you have spent on bad decisions because it's really a bummer. Oh, yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I might have a check. for that. Can I have that back, please? 10% of that back. I'd really like to make better decisions with that money. Yeah, man. It is what it is. Yep. So you're staying up here for tonight?

I'm going to stay here tonight. Head back, hopefully through a clear skies tomorrow. It's been so smoky everywhere up here. It's ridiculous, man. Tomorrow, today's Tuesday, right? Yeah. Wednesday, Friday, I think there's a greater than 50% chance of rain both of the, all three of those days. I hope if it just could knock it down just a touch. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's been pretty wild. Hopefully we get a wetter winter this year. Yeah. They're saying it's a super nino, which I don't know what that means.

I don't either. Last year was an El Nino, and I didn't know what that meant either. Yeah. So. I don't think they do either. I actually don't either. It's funny because when I got to Jackson, they're like, this is going to be the heaviest winter we've had in years and then there was no freaking snow. Did you guys have a shit year too?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was exposed gravel on the summit near New Year's Day. That's nuts. Yeah. I'm not going up to that with my snowboard. No. I mean, you know, I like my snowboard.

And I don't like that it makes when you go on rocks. Yeah. Yeah. And then that ice effect. Yeah, dude, it was wild. It was a very bad year. We've had about three in a row up here that I would say were below average. So I'd love to say that means we're definitely going to have a great one, but I don't think that's how that works.

Yeah. Is it, Fletcher? He's stretching. That's up. So we've been out for almost three hours. Two questions for you. And I can get you in Fletcher out of here. Stretch it out.

Nice. Don't worry about it. I love it. The for-profit business, where can people find you for that? And then the non-profit business, where can people find you for that? Yeah. So the for-profit Jackson Hole shooting experience, the website is a little bit more simplified. It's shoot nj.com.

Okay. I get it. We've got a Instagram. We're working on like remodeling. remodeling, rebranding and changing some stuff up. So things will change, but there's a little bit more beautification

in some stuff. So if you look up our social medias, just look up the Instagram, the other ones I wouldn't even pay any attention to right now. The Instagram is a very long handle. It's Jackson Hole shooting experience. Not very appeasing to the eyes, but that's what it is.

It also is what it is as far as an activity. Exactly. Yeah. And then for the nonprofit, TalensreachFoundation.org, if there is video on this, it's right here. So TalensreachFoundation.org. We've got a... Probably has the video camera, the dog. Somebody has completely lost interest in. We've got Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, website, all that stuff. We've got donation links on our website. Yeah. And then I think that's it. What do you want to leave people with? Well, you know, I want to give, I guess, another plug to your book because there's a lot of life lessons in there that people can learn from. But like, you've said it in there, you've said it here. We've both said it. It's like, I think a,

a part of life that is very challenging for people, anybody, like in business, in life and all of that stuff, like is taking that first step. But then continuing that momentum, not just trying to step through that threshold and staying in a danger area. Like, you have to gain momentum and you have to keep moving. I was on a run the other day and was like, dude, I found this cheat code to life. Like everybody was looking, looking for cheat codes. And I was like, I found this cheat code. And it's literally move forward, look up, move forward, look up. Because everybody's trying to, you know, look forward, but they're looking down.

And then they're taking a step back. It's like, no, pick your fucking head up, look forward and or look up and move forward. Like, that's it. Like, upright, upright, upright, upright, whatever gamers you guys want to talk about. Like, that is it. And then, like, secondly is, you know, if, if, you're struggling with addiction, you're struggling with alcoholism or anything in life, like if you feel like life is just heavy at any moment, like you are not a burden. It is okay

to ask for help. It's not weakness. Like I don't have some fancy, like, quote worthy statement right now, but it just like, it's funny because I want to say don't be a bitch and ask for help, but I also want to say like you're not a bitch if you ask for help. Yeah, the exact opposite. Yeah. It's like we think that it's going to create weakness. We think that it by another thing is like asking if you feel like you see somebody that's hurting and you're afraid that they want to take their life. You're not going to hurt them or make them suicidal if you ask them if they're suicidal.

I'm going to reinforce that. Don't beat around the bush if you can approach somebody as well to. Be direct and get to the point. it's uh you may save their life you beating around the bush though doesn't help anybody ask them say the hard thing ask them directly yeah it's yeah i've i've lost friends to their own hands and a big contributing factor was alcohol and i'm not going to say that that was the only thing but it it's a poison yeah and it's i mean there's so many things that i could say but like i just want you know, I want to reiterate the fact that, like, asking for help, man, is like, is one of those

biggest things. Whether it's business, whether it's life, whether it's mental, mental fortitude, mental strength, whatever it is. Like, there's so many things that, like, you don't have to carry it alone and you're not alone. Like, that, it's a, that statement right there, like, you are not alone is one of the biggest things that for me, I felt like I was alone through all of these struggles, through business, through life. through marriage through all of that. And I'm like, well, wait a second. Like this dude over here, like he's, he's been through it. Like, why don't I just ask for help? Like, I'm not going to hurt myself. I'm not going to hurt him. Like, and you'd be surprised how many people welcome you with

open arms. So, I agree, man. Anyways. Right on. Yeah. Well, let's get you back to Lauren's house. Yeah. Fletcher's sick of our shit anyway. It's just like, I've stretched several times. It's time for me to go pee. Thanks for making the drive, man. Yeah, dude. Thank you for having me out. Hell yeah.