Cleared Hot - Powered By BRCC - Was Gitmo Worth it? Did we lose our Morals?

Episode Date: July 12, 2024

Regularly scheduled Q and A for this Friday: 1.  After three years together and a rocky but ultimately successful journey to engagement, a fiancé's struggle with alcoholism threatens to unravel their lives. Despite periods of sobriety and committed efforts to mend their bond, her relapse into drinking and dangerous behavior poses serious risks. Is it possible to salvage a relationship overshadowed by addiction, and how do you approach such a delicate and distressing situation?  2. What are the ethics and effectiveness of off-the-books imprisonment and interrogation methods? Is there a place for unconventional tactics in ensuring national security, or do these practices undermine the moral standards we strive to uphold as Americans? The Speed of War Comic Series: https://www.thespeedofwar.com/ Check out the newest Cleared Hot Gear here: https://shop.clearedhotpodcast.com/  

Man, we are back. It's Friday. It is so hot in Montana. Not like Vegas hot, which I think AG from Toho just posted, it was 129 degrees. It ain't that hot. 96, though. It's warm out. I'm wearing shorts. Flip-flops, you know, kind of the normal stuff. Two questions for today so we can get efficiently into our weekend. Different topics for sure, but let's just dive right in. Here we go. Smoke. So the smoke. I'm looking at danger close now. Oh, what a minute.

Like I said, we're diving right in. Question one. Andy, love the show. I am in a bit of pickle. My fiancé and I have been engaged for the last few months and together for the last three years. Congratulations. No small feat. While our relationship had a bit of a rocky first year, we made it through.

We've had the talks. We've had the therapy. and we've made things right. Unfortunately, her, for her, I think you meant, you said, or you wrote her twice. Unfortunately for her, her coping mechanism of choice for any problem is the bottom of a bottle. We have spent serious time sober and got engaged while we're in the middle of these sober months and things were going great. Then boom, she's back to drinking away days and days, driving under the influence and forgetting how she got to the bar or even home from the bar. It's terrifying. She's already tolerated or totaled a car and received a DUI in the process. How can you bring light to a situation where even the person drinking is aware

that they're ruining their life for a temporary solution? Do we really want to use the term solution for drinking. I would say a temporary escape, and by that I mean getting shit-faced and avoiding your problems, something that I think we all have experienced to one degree or another in our life. Maybe your direction of choice didn't involve alcohol, but I'm sure everybody can empathize at least a little bit with having to face something not wanting to and choosing something else. And so what will we call that? It's not a solution. And I say it's not a solution. And I say it's not solution because any problem you had is still waiting for you when you come back. An escape, an avoidance. You pick whatever word works for you. But I would caution you against using the

word solution. Back to the email. She told me that I should leave her, that I should move out and find myself a new life. However, we have created a life together. And from before the time I put a ring on her finger, I was in it for the long haul. I understand that I can't. change anyone and at the end of the day I have to do what's best for me. But is there any saving, but is there any saving that can be done for a reckless alcoholic that won't reason with anyone? A question that I would estimate is as old as alcohol itself. So I'm going to get into some specifics here on my personal thoughts. And as I was thinking about this email, I'll kind of work my way backwards. The first thought that came to mind is, I think oftentimes when somebody is in a

situation like this, your total number of data points, an exposure and experience to people going through this problem is in the single digits, if not one. So it's really real, horrible choice of words there. It's very real for you. But I think broadening your horizon and perhaps understanding what it is that your fiancé is going through may help via exposure to more data points. I have never interfaced with an organization called Al-Anon, but my father spoke at length to me, or has spoken at length to me about his experience and then my mother's experience before she died and understanding her own parents and a few other people who have been around addiction

and attended these meetings and went and interfaced with these people to develop a better understanding of what it is they were dealing with. They took their data point from single digit to, I have no idea how big it could be. But let's just say exponentially larger than the data points that they had. And they developed a better understanding. I've heard alcoholism described as a disease. I am in no way, shape, or form qualified to say whether or not that is the case or not. But let's just say for the sake of me answering this question and the ease of using the vocabulary that I have, understanding the disease, the red flags, the enabling behavior that you might not even recognize the boundaries that you may need to set, the decisions that you may have to make,

the environment that you may have to help set. These people live and breathe and sweat and suffer in this every single day with a variety of people. I would suggest seeking them out to develop a better understanding of what your fiancé is battling. And perhaps it will prepare you in a way where you could help her. And I hit it on the head. You can't change anybody. They have to make the change themselves. But you could remove any of your behaviors that might actually be enabling this person without you knowing it.

You could help set conditions and standards or an environment at your house that would be helpful. I think there is great reward to be found by going out and seeking people who. are experts in this. I think it will help you with your fiance. Now, are there organizations other than Al-Anon, things like that? Of course. I would even say maybe even go to an AA organization. And I would be upfront and honest with what it is that you are dealing with. And I think what you're going to find are people who have gone through and struggled and made it out the other side of what your fiancé is going through who can provide you insight and feedback that will be beneficial in your life. So that is the first course of action that I would recommend.

Let me get a little bit farther back into this. Where it was your question? A reckless alcoholic that won't reason with anyone. She understands, where is it? How can you bring light to a situation where even the person drinking is aware that they're ruining their lives? This person, your fiancé, and somebody who tells you that you should move on and find a new life and just leave. In my experience, that is a cry for help. And they don't actually want that, even though I think they might believe it when they say it, but they don't actually want that. They don't want to be left alone. I don't think most people, obviously can't say all, but I don't think most people actually want to augur their life in. And I don't think that most

people actually want to be alone. I consider that to be more of a cry for help than her actually expressing her inner thoughts, even though she may believe it when she says it. I would have, and this might be tough, because I don't know how close these times are when she's the sine wave, swing, not the, not the amplitude, but the frequency of how often she's going from sober to drunk. Is there time in between? Is there time to have lucid conversations in an environment where it will be impactful and she will remember it?

Because the time to have these conversations, maybe I should have started with this, The time to have these conversations is not when this person's shit-faced. That's only going to lead to a portal to hell, and I would avoid that at all costs. But I would have really upfront and direct conversations. Do you understand what it is that you're risking? If you do understand that, why are you so comfortable risking it? And I think it's great that you've done couples therapy. I think, and I don't know how to suggest this to your fiancé without her getting defensive in nature,

she might need to do some work on herself because the things that she is saying are problematic in nature my word maybe not a clinician's word but they're red flags for sure why a question for you whoever wrote this in are you okay with her going to the bar by herself do you guys not live together, what is she doing going to the bar solo, forgetting how she got there, D-U-I-wrecked car? I mean, as an adult, right, if you want to make these decisions when we live in a world where I can summon a vehicle in a few minutes on my phone, I mean, that's just irrational, irresponsible behavior to begin with, let alone I don't understand why you would be comfortable with her going out and drinking to the point of excess and blacking out and not only only. how she gets back home, for me as somebody who would be on the other side of that equation in the relationship, I would be deeply uncomfortable with that. From an issue of safety and security, let alone responsibility.

And again, this is one of the limitations of an email being written in. You didn't mention that you were there, though, and it seems like that she is doing this on her own. And my question to you is, why are you allowing that? Why are you tolerating that? And maybe it's because you said before the time I put a ring on her finger, I was in it for the long haul. So she's your ride or die. Okay. I understand that.

I understand love. I can empathize with the statement. But let's change the analogy here a little bit or a metaphor. I don't know which one to be. Probably an analogy. Okay. Your fiancé is an architect. And she is responsible for,

designing your future home. But for whatever reason, you guys live in New York City because you like having no personal space. And she's developing a skyscraper. She's laying it out. And you're there with her, and you're an architect too. And you can see that in her design, she is creating a skyscraper that is from a foundational level unsound.

It doesn't have the right reinforcement, the wrong materials. And if it were to be built and you were to inhabit it, the certainty of at some point collapsing and destroying and killing both of you is without question. Would you allow that? Would you be her ride or die into that building that she made? I don't think any reasonable person would. Maybe a different metaphor. You're in a car. She's driving.

she starts accelerating and expressing a desire to drive the car off of the road, which in my mind's eye would be a dukes of hazard jump off a ramp over Niagara Falls, even though this is a really tough one. I'm combining a lot of different areas and eras and TV shows, but you get the point. Now, in this scenario, if you were to choose to, you could exit the vehicle while driving and for whatever reason you wouldn't get hurt. You had the ability to get out. I'm assuming what you would do is you would try to talk to her, you'd probably try to grab the wheel. But she fights it off.

And for whatever reason, she's able to maintain control of the car and she is still continuing to accelerate. And you had the ability to save yourself. What would you do? Would you stay in the car and die? Or would you get out? not a question that I can answer for you, but just food for thought. Because when you change these ride-or-die situations from relationships to things like the architect or the vehicle, it paints a little bit of a different picture. And to me, sometimes it starts looking ridiculous when people say things like, regardless of what happens, I'm just going to ride it out.

I mean, what does that say about you at the end of the day? And I'm not trying to be derogatory in any way, shape, or form. These are just the things that I think about. What is the point where enough is enough? You can only control yourself and you're responsible for the trajectory of your own life. How much of that will you allow somebody to hijack before it is catastrophic and it has gone too far? And again, I can't answer these questions for anybody other than myself, but I think that they are important to ask. I'm stoked that you're engaged and you've been together with somebody for three years.

which in the grand scheme of things, assuming you hit the median age life expectancy for an adult male, is a drop in the bucket. I have no doubt you love this person. I have no doubt you're committed to this person. But is it worth the remainder of that time? Or is there a point in time where you have to decide what it is you are going to tolerate and what you are not? I think everybody, I like to tell myself that most people are inherently good. Most people are inherently different as well, and they have different values and different things that they want to do with their life.

Finding somebody and growing with them for a lifetime, I think, is incredibly difficult. I think that's what causes a lot of relationships to fracture is instead of growing together, they grow apart. And the space and the gap is built between them that can't be recovered. to ignore that that happens is idiotic because it absolutely does. And I wish I could give you a hard and fast answer on what I think you should do, but I can't because I don't feel qualified to do that, and I would rather leave you with questions that you can ask yourself. And my first question is, where are you going to draw the line in the sand?

3DUIs? Losing her job? Hoking up with some other dude? The combination of all those things? Are you still the ride or die through that? Because you've been together for three years? Or at what point in time are you going to advocate for yourself, stand up for yourself, and move on if you have to.

And maybe you won't. I'll close with, I'd go back and educate yourself as much as possible about what your fiancé seems to be struggling her way through. That will equip you with the best tools, in my opinion, at least, to be as helpful as possible. And if you are as helpful as possible and nothing changes, you're back to those other questions that I asked you, which is, where's your line in the sand? And only you can answer that because you have to live with the person you see in the mirror every morning. Question two, way shorter, totally different topic. Greetings from a fellow Montana. Of course, you didn't include

where you're from. Rude. Hope you enjoying the beautiful summer we've been having so far. I agree. It seems like it just showed up the last two weeks, though. It was pissing and it had hail in very late June, but I think I would take that over the very hot temperatures of today. I've been listening to the podcast that's around 2020. First time question asker. I'm curious to get your perspective on the prisoner detainment program at Guantanamo Bay. I know this is a deep rabbit hole to dive down, but I'd like to get your opinion on the necessity

or lack thereof of having an off-the-books enemy prisoner detainment program. Do you believe that unconventional methods of imprisonment and interrogation are a effective. Does it betray our moral standard as Americans to participate in such programs? Thanks for reading and keep making Friday commutes awesome for all your listeners. Like I said, very different question. Guantanamo Bay, I would not call that an off-the-books enemy prisoner detainment program. I think it's pretty safe to talk about some of the black sites that existed in both Iraq and Afghanistan because they're open source. Guantanamo Bay was pretty well known.

What a lot of people didn't know about were the intermediate stops along the way to get to Guantanamo Bay. And a lot of people never did get to Guantanamo Bay because the ability to operate at a facility or a site that is absent oversight and scrutiny, I mean, you can color outside of the lines, I guess would probably be the best way to put that. So just start with that. Guantanamo, well-known, the off-the-books, enemy prisoner detainment program. Is there a necessity or lack there of for something like that? Do I believe that unconventional methods of imprisonment and interrogation are effective? Here's what I believe. If you torture somebody, it is very effective at eliciting information.

The question is, is that information useful or valuable? The research has been done. practical research has been done, unfortunately, on what people will do to get torture to stop. And the answer is, anything they fucking can. They will give you the nuclear launch codes if it means stopping whatever is happening to them. Does that mean that they know the nuclear launch codes? No, it does not. Now, let me add to this.

I am in no way, shape, or form read in to the robust intelligence network that exists and operates outside of the USA, likely probably safeguarded from our three-letter agencies due to cutouts and government contracts that allow for deniability and pushing budget in a way that is very hard to track. Or what our country has absolutely done in the past is our rendition program that takes people to other countries who have looser moral boundaries. And we let other countries torture people for us, which in my mind does not wash our hands of the torture that is occurring. So to the best of my knowledge, torture makes people talk. What they are talking about is the real question. If somebody could present

to me, a dossier of legitimate information that has come from those activities that made a substantial impact and saved lives and stopped terrorist attacks, I'd be open to having the conversation. Absent that, I think there has to be a delineation and demarcation between the people that we are fighting and who we espouse ourselves to be. And if we're going to torture people, we've crossed that line. I have two sons. Neither have expressed ever a desire of any kind to join the military, which I'm totally fine with. And I would be totally fine with them saying they wanted to follow my footsteps. I would do the best I could to educate them, maybe give them some tips on things to avoid, but I would not try to stop them. I have neither promoted it nor tried to talk them out of it.

anybody out there who has kids who are serving in the military, how would you want to see your children treated if they were taken captive by our enemies? Now, before people start screaming, well, our enemies don't play by the rules, this side or the other. Yeah, I understand. But that doesn't mean that we have to be that as well. That doesn't mean we have to play by their rules. Like I said, there has to be a delineation and a demarcation between who we are and the people that we are fighting. having people in off-site locations, I'm not necessarily against that. Having them off the books for a little bit in the interim, as you're getting them from point A to B to C to D to Guantanamo Bay using a previous example.

I'm not sure what's in place right now. I don't have a problem with that either. But I do have a problem with the actions that may take place in those facilities. Because like I said, I have never been presented with data that's something. supports ripping people's fingernails out or hooking their nipples up to a car battery. Both of those examples, by the way, I got from TV. I haven't seen those in real life. And I think it might have been car batteries on the testicles, too.

That would be a wild ride. Nobody wants that. Nobody needs that. And if somebody were to try to do that to you, what do you think you would tell them? Anything you possibly could to get it to stop. I do believe it betrays our moral standards as Americans to participate. in these programs. Like I said, I am not in, I am not read in to the breadth and depth of everything that is going on, but I am aware of some of the things that have happened in the past,

specifically like I mentioned. Rendition programs by the agency that would drop people off in third-party countries that really don't have moral standards when it comes to how they treat people. That doesn't make us virtuous. That makes us the taxi driver to hell. And I think the stain of that is on our country. And I don't think we should do it. But those are just my personal opinions. So I think being an American needs to stand for something worldwide, not just what we say, but more importantly, what we do. And that's where I will leave this Friday. Go enjoy your weekend. See you guys on Monday.