Cleared Hot - Powered By BRCC - What Delta Force Cost Him | Kyle Morgan | Ep. 459

Episode Date: July 20, 2026

Kyle Morgan spent over twenty years in the Army. Infantry, then Green Beret, then more than a decade in the nation's premier special missions unit running hostage rescue. In 2015 he was advising the U.S. Embassy in Mali when terrorists took the Radisson Blu hotel. He built a team on the fly and went in. The award for that was the Distinguished Service Cross, second only to the Medal of Honor. Today he runs Blu Bearing, trains police and civilians, and serves on the board of Frontline Healing Foundation. When the job ends the machine has already forgotten about you, and he'll tell you that isn't cruel because it has to forget you to keep moving. The guys who come apart are the ones still trying to replace something that can't be replaced. He didn't leave the way he wanted to. There was addiction, a DUI he hid, and an overdose that nearly ended it, and his old command circled the wagons around him more than once before he finally made it out. Sobriety and faith are what brought him back, almost five years of it now, and he spends his time pointing at the cost so the next guy doesn't pay it blind. He'll tell you he's more proud of the husband and father he is today than anything he ever did downrange.  Blu Bearing Solutions: ⁠https://blubearing.com/⁠ Join the Cleared Hot Newsletter: ⁠https://www.clearedhot.com⁠ Take the Operator Code Assessment: ⁠https://www.theoperatorcode.com⁠ Today's Sponsors:  Black Rifle Coffee:  ⁠https://www.blackriflecoffee.com⁠ LMNT: ⁠https://www.drinklmnt.com

Okay, got the red smoke. I'm looking at danger close now. You ready to do this, bud? Yeah, buddy. Oh, shit. Are we opening it up with the card? We're just going to quiz each other right now. That's how we're starting.

Some of those are a bastard, man. You're like, I don't want to address this currently. Wow, you are actually just going to dive in. Go for it. Not for small talkers. Yeah. I don't know what I'm getting myself into. I kind of know because you did this the other day.

I did. But I think it's wonderful. like the... I just didn't want the book to be the end state. You know? What are we doing with it? You know, kind of thing. Yeah.

Or what do you do with it? I like the concepts, but I struggle a little bit. Or I don't necessarily know exactly what to do with it. And not that this is the end all, be all, but it's just, it's a good way to build on it. So, wow, look at you. We are going to just straight open with... You did far better than me shuffling. Might, you know, moonlight in Vegas.

Sure, of course. Yeah, we got a cut. One of them in here is the how do you use this. This one goes on top. You got to cut towards me. Hey, what's going on here? All right. Oh, God.

First off, who's answering this? Are we both? It may not even be a challenge. It's going to be a quote of reflection or a challenge. I answer the first one and then you'll do the opposite for me. Oh, challenge. Oh, ask for help with one thing today. Not because you're weak, but because you're smart enough to know you don't have.

have to carry everything alone. That's easy. It is, that is a relative, well, like, where's my wallet? Where's my wallet? I have no idea where my wallet is. How many guys from our world though feel like, whether it's true or not, they have to do everything by themselves. Yeah.

But it's for a team, that's what you tell yourself. I will shoulder everything I possibly can to make sure the team doesn't suffer at all. They will destroy themselves, which I think is a very noble thing, not maybe the smartest long-term strategy, but a noble pursuit. Yeah. It's super dangerous. And they don't want to ask for help. And they're surrounded by people that love them that would help them.

Man, it's such a blessing, though, to have, to have experience both sides of that type of environment, culture. And now, when it comes to things that are going to appear weak, you know, personal issues, that's where I struggled for, well, 37 years before I ever really truly ask someone for help. But, you know, in my time in the 82nd and 7th Special Forces Group and then in the unit, what I saw was that like the good leaders, which is really hard to describe. And I loved how you described leadership. And the connection.

Bad leaders are so easy to describe that. Well, the part about the book, the drownproof book that you wrote that I thought was, there's so many parts of it. But one of them it was how it's kind of easy to mistake good leadership in the military versus is it or is it just team? Yeah. You know, team success. You're going to succeed in spite of the leader sometimes.

And in the outside, I was giving a speech in Colorado recently. And I'm still looking for a great example of a command photo because I would want to put it up and describe to everybody what it is they're looking at. And then I would say, okay, who's the good leaders and who's the bad? And they would all sit there and they would look at it. It's an impossible question. Because you and I, I don't know shit about army uniforms. I would understand the ribbons, but lost on the ranks completely, much like the Navy.

Same with the Navy. I'm like, what, petty? I know. Why are you so petty? Heavy on the petty, light on the officers, what I have to tell people. But, you know, of course the military could not have a single rank structure that we could seamlessly talk across. Yeah.

But the point of putting that picture up in explaining what people can't see is that the people at the unit level could deeply tell you who is effective and who isn't effective. But on the outside world, they see that uniform and they say, that's a leader. They're going to be good. And that's dangerous to think that way. Yeah, for sure. But to the other point of, I think, experiencing good leadership that would transcend the military structure is what I'm talking about. So the guys that, and that's how I've became the leader I've become is through all the bad and the good and the experiences. And then the things you just don't know like with entrepreneurship. Like how do I translate that

stuff into this world? And will you let me know what you figured out by the way? Sure. Can you write it down and take a picture of your phone? You're a little further along than me. But my point. Well, no, I'm further along in time. Let's not assume that I'm further along in success. A little bit of time and age. Maybe a little bit age too. But yeah. The empowerment, right? So like If I give you a task or I'm given a task and I don't give an opportunity or create a culture of like any questions. Do you have what you need? What can we help you with with this task? Like that's the, that's the, if we don't do those things, if we don't create the environment, hey, and we just say, here's the task.

Get it done by 1700, whatever. Five o'clock for you, civilian folk. Yeah. I'm over the cameras are. Everywhere. I'm over there. I like, I'm like, I'm a podcast or two, you know. but the black and blue podcast, check it out.

And those tasks, like, and the good subordinates are going to get those things done. But they don't really understand what they just did necessarily, not as much as they could. And you're not developing your replacements. So thinking about like that one up, two down. Have you heard that? Yeah, one up two down is like a huge way that I've translated, you know, I've been able to translate that into entrepreneurship of like. Explain what that is for the audience. wherever I'm at in this in this in life in my professional life as well like I need to be thinking

about how do I learn how to do the job above me that's the one up and everything that could set those conditions and then I can I never forget how to do the jobs too down um it's it's not beneath me because at the end of day like you can't come in today I'm doing your job and I'm going to try to do it well yeah so to be led well and then to lead well and then to lead well it takes that one up, two down mindset that you never, you never arrive. You know, it's the journey, you know, piece of it. So, but that, that opportunity that we can give our teammates that we work with of like a planning exercise, like, hey, you know, here's what we got.

We have to do this. And there's these micro tasks in this mission. I'm going to be working on these things. But I need you, you and you to figure out how you guys want to do these two other things. And I don't care if you do it or you do it, but you guys come up with a plan on how you want to execute it and you let me know what you need to support you in that. And that's how you start the progression of developing them

into the one up to down. And you have to create environments where, all right, this op, the two I see is the TL. And the TL is the 6IC. And it's hard to do, but it's hard to do, but it's, It's fun if you do it and you do it often. And there's times and places to do it obviously. And I take that mindset with me,

because I think one of the biggest things I can help with or that we can help with, and this may seem trivial to some, but leadership, or shoot, excuse me, planning and actions on and after actions. You talk about that extensively in the book, but to law enforcement as I'm training, because you know, my training company is Blue Bering

I've been doing it for over four years now, really on terminal leave before I retired. But Yuvaldei really woke me up on active threat response, active attack. Yeah. Active shooter is a failed term. We still term it active shooter because of SEO. Because you- What do they call it now in the profession? So it's, it depends on the state.

Yeah. But as a larger kind of across the nation, it's still being termed active shooter response, training. And that's the reason why I still put it anywhere in the title of our courses from a search. Yeah, search engine stuff. So, but it's a failed term for a couple of reasons. Not to make this about training, but my point is, is that it causes indecision, paralysis with without information in that moment other than, hey, what got us here? A call about shooting at this location. It's called a school.

Time of day. Common sense. So there's things that violate the five principles. of patrolling. So planning, reconnaissance, security, control, common sense. Time of day, what are they doing inside the target, the innocent bystanders? Avoid deny, defend, which is, if they can avoid, avoid. So it's better than run, hide, fight, because run could be run the wrong way. It could very well consist of running. It could very well consist of hiding. But avoid, deny, defend is more appropriate. So think of that as the innocent bystanders that are victims in this

situation like that the whole point of us responding without hesitation is to to give them more time as we're distracting isolating neutralizing law enforcement love their acronyms too um or their the phrases i guess but um my point is is that there's been cases and i use the data i don't i don't make things up i use my experience with the radisson blue and in training for hostage rescue and doing it and it's to help teach an appropriate curriculum and we call ours the protect our mindset course because it's a mindset that you can take everywhere with you. And we teach these tangible skills. But the shooter term, what happens when you get there?

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I would hope not. Well, it happens. And I think that that term is being phased out of active shooter versus active threat or active attack. And it's, I can see the justification for that. Yeah. And that's a big part of it. And it may not always involve a gun. Yeah.

So the term needs to be all encompassing for just the ability for, for some, for an individual or individuals to cause, you know, great harm or killing people, a large amount of people in a populated area, unrelated. And it doesn't mean that something that is. is like a domestic situation, and like something at someone's work, their girlfriend's cheating on them with a coworker, and they go there to kill people specifically,

and it turns into an active attack. But people get so wound up, and it's such a big deal, because the moment things go to, well, there's not active killing happening, it goes to barricade, which changes the tactics completely. As you know, and that's when we can set the conditions, you know, and in our favor. Like, you think Afghanistan and Iraq, Syria,

like, those are easier missions. Especially if you can isolate and contain. Yeah. And you have the cover of darkness. You have relative cover, you know, with the two-foot mud walls, like, in some of those buildings. But at the end of the day, like, the biggest difference between all the close quarters battle.

And I like close quarters battle, CQB, because that's what I was taught and it's right. But versus CQC. And terminate words matter. And as I teach this and translate this to law enforcement, like this is a battle for morality in the confines of a structure. So we got to simplify the chaos, the unknown, the only absolute, the enemy gets to vote, who, what, when, where, why.

And we don't just control, you know, the where, right? The time of day. What's in front of that breach? You know, like, what's the, but we try to simplify it with how we teach close quarters battle, but it's a battle for morality where something, someone is in there that is worth us safeguarding or obtaining, you know, and depending on what it is, if it's in high-risk warrant, it's like, well, let's gas them out, wait them out, turn the power out, call them out, right? But once we commit to going through that doorway, the actions are the same, man, dominate,

maneuver. You talk about that in the book, which is wonderful, because what does that do? It splits the attacker's attention. Otherwise, you're reacting to them. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you talk about that, and it's like, I'd much rather them be reactive to me versus me reacting to them. That's the whole like domination of the space. I was actually, I consider myself fortunate. So I actually did a deployment with A Squadron. Did you?

And it was back in 2005. They had split the countries geographically. And we're still going to come back and answer our questions on the cards. Sure. Because that one's actually yours. I have a better way to phrase that for your entrepreneurial journey because I'm just fascinated by other entrepreneurs. Yeah.

But to talk about CQB, I think that's a correct phrasing too. So we went down and we did essentially a modified workup with you guys at your shoot house. And I think you guys sent up six because at that time they have several. Yep, eight or eight, whatever, however made me. 20. Yeah. Yeah.

Who's counting? They had said, all right, dev group, you guys get Afghanistan, Kagg, you guys get Iraq. Yep. People high enough upset. That may not be a good idea if we force that out. Let's have a little bit across pollination. But it's cool because we got to come down. there's not that much difference once you clear the threshold of the door between the way they were doing it back in 2005 and we were doing it back in 2005 very small differences.

Almost all the concepts were the same. But it was cool because you could sit there and say, well, why do you guys do it like that? And they would answer. I'm like, okay, awesome. And then we changed the way that we did it while on deployment with you guys so we could seamlessly integrate in that way a dude was just a dude. Yeah. Instead of having to set, okay, here's your little pocket of you go do Navy stuff over. here and we'll go to Army stuff. It's not going to work. It, man, it's, it's one of those things,

too, with like, you know, where I'm at with my faith, it's like, instead of us talking about things that divide us, let's talk about what unites us. It was 99.8% the same. And, and, and, but I will say that era, not, not having been there, uh, during that era, um, in the unit, like that, there was a lot of lessons learned in blood. Oh, we were still, that was the tail end of, hey, let's run into it. And they probably learned a lot from, um, um, um, those small unit exchanges too because yeah i mean eight guys got hurt on the target i got medevacked out of six of them went on little birds did you get hurt on that on a rotation with with a corner i was on deployment with a squadron that's when you got shot yeah oh wow i didn't i didn't realize that yeah

we were coming in essentially the white side of the building and then they had i mean there were people everywhere but yes i mean six guys got lifted out on helicopters to us i got the bradley fighting vehicle, which just means, though, I wasn't that hurt in comparison to, you know, and lost a lot of a lot of people. Some of it was in that area. And honestly, too, some of it was blue and blue. There was a breaching charge that would, that was command initiated with other people in close enough proximity that it did a substantial amount of damage.

There's so many lessons to be learned. We are not, we are not, what's the word, impervious? or like it. No, it was our guys who set the breach that ended up. That's what I'm saying. Like us, just whether it's your former unit that you've worked with or mine, like it, it, it, the, the, the, the, seeing things from a certain perspective, it, it, it, it, it's, and you got to be able to create that forum to talk about, you know, an excruciating level of detail. Yeah. Any, any, any tactical errors or grievances, but, you know, us killing our own is, is, you know, it's, it's happened. And it's also, I mean, how many.

bombs got dropped on our own people. I'm not talking about the union. I'm talking about just the military at large. Yeah. And we've learned a ton through the global war on terrorism. And 20 plus years of training for war and at war is unprecedented. And that's why I think our generation, you know, is set up to be very impactful, one of the greatest generations that this country's ever seen.

but it's not because of what we did during the war, it's what we take and do for this country after with those lessons. I could not agree more. And that's huge. We got to do more. And we are, but my point is,

is that if you're one of those guys that are out there flapping, lost, like I don't know my identity's so wrapped up and what I used to do and nothing feels the same, you're trying to replace something, man. You're never going to find that again.

And that's okay. You need to grieve. Grieving is a part of life. It's a blessing, actually. and how we grieve matters. And not to get scriptural on you, but Jesus wept, right? Why did Jesus weep? He wept because of, because Lazarus's family.

He knew he was going to raise him from the dead, but he wept. He held that space with Jesus's sisters and family to grieve, to show us that grieving is a part of living. And grieving our identity is a big part. It's okay, man. Yeah. It's okay. not be okay in a moment, but you can't stay that way.

A relative becomes, like you said in the book, it becomes the tsunami, right? Surviving that tsunami, it's like it either destroys you, defines you, or improves you. And that's a superpower if you can figure out how it improves you. And it's not avoidance. It's not shame. Shame is extremely unhealthy. But at the end of the day, it's remorse. Yep, I did that.

I was a part of that. Or pride. Like, yeah, and I'm so. proud to have served there and done the things that we were able to do. But I am just one of, of, of, a, a massive, uh, uh, force that is so capable and I was so honored to serve there and, and, um, and just the military at large. My service to this country has became so much more about what it originally started as, which is, well, fighting.

Like 9-11 happened and I was, um, I was a senior in high school. And I remember where I was at. And I just was like, I looked at this teacher that served in the Ranger Regiment in the 90s. And he took me under his wing. And I was like, what do I do? How do I sign up? I want to go fight these people. And I didn't know what I didn't know.

But, you know, that my team, my family, everything that I was missing growing up, I found in the military, good and bad. But when that goes away, what happens, man? You know, and I think replacing it is where we get stuck versus, you know, the growth in the, in the, in the, in the journey of rediscovery and the of, of, of something new. It's beautiful, man. I think you have to remember, too, that the machine has already forgotten about you. Yeah. And that's okay.

The machine has to forget about you to continue to be capable and to evolve and to innovate and to, move on. I've asked myself many times and I don't know the answer to this. And it's not that I want people constantly being reminded while they're in that they need to think about what's going to be next. But I think it would be a net benefit if leadership from time to time we're to sit everybody down and just say, listen, what we're doing is unbelievable. But don't forget that you do have a life that you have to live outside of this and you're going to have to go back to that or recreate that or replay it, whatever term you would want to use. My hope is that that's changing.

I hope is that that's changing because that never got talked about. Same here. And so you got out in 2020, right? 2020. 2022. So I got out in 2020 or 2013. So if it's not, if it's not being, you got out in 2013?

Mm-hmm. I thought it was 2018. Maybe I misunderstood some numbers. I'm listening. I'm not going to say I'm reading. Yeah. I'm listening to the book. Not 23rd.

Last day you in 2013. when I got it. Yeah. So Hot Take is is people that say that they read a book, but they listen to it. Is it really, did they really read it? I'm going to go to Michael for this. Michael? You are the neutral party. I mean, it doesn't technically mean the same thing, but you absorbed it. You consumed it. Yeah. You're not being.

I listen to books all the time. Yeah. Me too. And I'm not judging at all. Like I, I, honestly, that's helped me. Eric helped me with this. My wife, because tracking and, you know, converging like, whoa, double vision, all the things from blast injuries and just not being conditioned and practiced with reading from a young age. But like, listening and then tracking along, man, that helps me, that helps me absorb everything so much quicker. I was going to ask, for me, I absorb books better written word than audio. Yeah.

I like audio and I can absorb from that, but I have a deeper retention with a written. But that's just me. I don't think it matters. Yeah. No, I don't. It's one of the things hot takes, man. Yeah. I don't know.

That's what the young girl are you doing. We're going to get back to the military stuff. I'm Colin Morgan, by the way. Yeah. That's all in the show notes. Yeah. All right. In your entrepreneurial junior, let's change this up.

In your entrepreneurial journey, identify one thing for me that you have probably identified for yourself where you need to reach out to an expert, but you haven't yet. Hmm. Very good. Could you repeat the question? So you've got a lot of stuff going on. You have a training company. You have a podcast.

You travel. You speak. That's a lot of stuff. And all of those things, there's no way that you could be a master in all of those things. So in your journey or what you want to do, have you identified an area where you know that you're going to have to reach out to somebody for help yet and you just haven't done it. Maybe it's a business coach. Maybe fill in the blank. Have you identified yet?

Probably put it this way. The biggest deficiency you might have identified in yourself and you know you need to do something about it, but you just haven't gotten around to it. I think the next hurdle is, to answer the question very broadly, is anytime I realize something, it's usually by making the mistake. And then I'm like, well, who can I lean on for different reasons? Mentors, you know, and as a CEO, Chief Everything officer, it's very hard when you're a company at that time of three. Yeah. And one of them's your wife. Yeah.

And like that's something that I think I need to reach out to more of is like, man, what a blessing it is to build something with your wife to do it. And for her to still have her passion and her own real estate brokerage and our life together. Like how do we, you know, how do I not lose sight of managing the business in a business way? Yep. without things being so personal. And I don't, maybe that's like,

you can't really answer that question. No, you can't. You can find that in a mentor or somebody that you see, perhaps, that has traveled through that and just literally ask them for advice. It could be as simple as that. Yeah. But I think scaling is the first,

is the next thing. Yeah. That I know that I need help with. Yep. But I also am not in this rush. And it's not procrastination. I know that. because that's very simple.

That's very easy for me to do. It's the best later. I'll get it to that later. It's a tomorrow problem. I was telling them at the coffee shop, I think it was Confucius that said, Confucius, that said, don't do today what can be put off until tomorrow.

Yes. The problems of tomorrow will worry about themselves enough. Scripture also says something about this too, but, um, no, I am completely turning words around just to justify my own laziness at times. Well, we also don't know we don't know. and I think one of the...

But we know people who do know what we don't know. And that's what we got to ask them. That's the question. And, you know, I can connect this to something more recently where it was something that I was challenged with. Like, hey, you know, we should, as men, we need three things. We need to be, we need to be mentored by someone or people for different reasons to this point. Like there isn't like a one, one style. If you have that person that you're,

is your mentor. If it's your father, God bless you, man. Like, that is such a blessing. Yeah. But if you don't have that, even if you do, you still need other people for different reasons, but someone older than you, wiser, longer in whatever it is that you're seeking mentorship about. And then we need to be mentoring our peers. Like, we need to be, you know, mentoring each other, listening through, through things even just, publicly that are done, like, I really, I really appreciated that they did that. And then tell them, like, hey, man, that was awesome. Here's why. I think that was great. Or, what are you doing? You know, and I'm not the police. Like, I'm not like the moral police for everybody, but the

people that I'm connected with, and this is a part of, you know, full circle, but the third being mentoring the people younger than us, like wherever they're at, maybe physically, maybe by age, just wherever we're at in that process, it could be determined by age or not. But those three things, right, you know, the mentor that's further along, the peer, and then the mentee, if that's even a word. I think that is actually correct. Mentor and mentee? Michael.

I do believe that is correct. Not to be confused with manatee. That's something. Very easy. Which is a pretty dope sea creature, by the way. Yeah. Handing that. I got to shuffle it up here.

You're going to have to pull a card for me. One of those things was when asked, I was like, I can answer the two of those. but the third one I can't, which was the wiser, the further along. And then I thought about it. And I was like, and I prayed about it. And I was like, why? I have two people that come to mind right away. Yep.

And I haven't asked either one of them. So all I did was ask. And it was like, of course. I'll be that for you. And they're going to do it to get things also out of that connection. So it's not about transactions. It's about choosing who we connect with and then holding each other accountable, which I think we find easier when we don't like things. We're like, oh, what are you doing? So being, you know, also having grace and being patient, but to lead with our example and to ask, you know, hey, man, like, I don't know, I don't know, like, this entrepreneur stuff. I don't know how to scale this company without losing the culture that I'm trying to build.

I'm not trying, that I am building. Words matter. The culture that I've built. built and building in BlueBaring. And it's people. It's people. And that is really, really hard to scale. As you know, I think you do talk about that in the book. You have to do it slowly. Yeah, slowly.

Oh, man, there's a whole section that I wrote that I was like, I was writing down the whole thing. And I was like, no, I'm just going to highlight the whole page and a half. And it talks about, hire, slowly, fire quickly. Yeah. And man, that's. It applies to personal life too. Yep. It really does.

And it's one of those things where people may be in your life for a season, for a part of it, and they show you at some point, or maybe you've now gained a new perspective of, like, this is not a relationship that needs to move forward in the next season. And seasons are okay. I think that's one thing. I didn't realize that, I guess, until a little bit later in life, everybody's life has seasons, to include your own. It's okay if seasons of life shift apart and then come back.

boring life if it didn't truly like I would agree with you but when you're in the moment you you know you get upset like it's not working it doesn't click as well is this happening now yeah you know like I wasn't ready for what a boring life it would be I don't serve this seasons yeah it would let's do it though all right you get to pull one and now I have to answer these are so good those elements are fantastic it's the saltiest water I love it I have no proof of that that's just what I call it all right another challenge I was hoping you'd pull the instructions. How do you use this deck? We didn't pull that out. No, he left it in. So another challenge. So for the viewers that don't know what we're doing here, this is the drumproof

conversation starter. Stop scrolling and start talking. That's why I love this because of that statement. And it can be done like this, but really. As people are watching us right now. Yeah. But really, though, the important conversations are with yourself. It can be with a partner. I do plan to make a deck of these for leaders, a deck of these for parents. Same things. Pull a card and just start. The whole goal is make movement, a positive movement, whether it's a reflection, whether it's something you know you don't want to do, but your life will be better if you do. Yeah. We all have those things. Oh, for sure. So, what do you got? So pick one area of your life, finances health, a relationship, and run an honest

after action review on the last 90 days. Oh, dang, dude. So that's tough to do you. real time, obviously. Yeah. But that's like a, that's like a reflection thing that you can do in the morning and then start scribing, you know. Yeah. And then come back to it. Yep.

In the afternoon. And by, but by the end of the day, I think that challenge is, is doable. That's tough to do. Let's see you do it in the next minute. I mean, so you'd have to pick one. Let's do. You pick one. Life, health or finances.

Yeah. Health. And health in the sense of. Like the last thing I just listened to on your book was that, and I didn't get to the conclusion, but the intestinal thing. Yeah. Like the intestinal blockage,

10 out of 10 don't recommend. Yeah. But, but, you know, in contrast of obviously not feeling well. Yeah. And then,

you know, how are you managing, not knowing exactly what was the root cause? Yeah. Is it preventable or avoidable? They said it was bad luck. Really? Yeah.

So maybe that's not a good one. but getting shot now. That's also avoidable to you. But not rude. Kind of. Well, not looking for fights. That's what I mean.

For sure. No, no. I don't mean that in a way of like, the enemy always gets to vote. Yeah. And, you know,

we have to, you know, try to set the conditions, but what we did and what our nation's law enforcement does is dangerous. Very. Very dangerous.

Like, this isn't a game. Yeah. And I don't want to take away from, I don't want people misunderstand what I just said about, It's avoidable.

What I mean is, is like, I'm not looking to go wear a badge. I'm not looking to go fight overseas and this, this conflict or that conflict. Like, I'm done. My fight is, man, it's everywhere. It starts in here every day I wake up. Yeah. With how I start my day. Yep.

Proactive? Great. Versus reactive. Yep. Reactive looks like, first thing I'm doing is, oh, what's what's going on on? Calendar, emails, Instagram. You know, and it's like, now I've went into immediate reaction. And so I guess to go back to the challenge, I'll do finances because this is one I can give you because this is something.

I need help with that too. Well, yeah, I'm in the middle of. Can I get the payday long? Just kidding. Sure. I'll give you several dollars, 38% interest. My relationship with money has shifted as again, seasons in life. When I was younger in life, I recently read the book, The Art of Spending Money.

And if you haven't read it, I would recommend it. It was recommended to me from Huberman. Yeah. You did that recently too. About a month ago, it just recently came out. Yeah. So there was a little bit of a delay. He seems like such a grounded human.

We sat and BS for a good amount of time afterwards. What was it called? Artists, I think Erica's mentioned it to me. And there's another one. I think it's the psychology of spending money, whatever it is. They're both tied the same author. And I think this will apply to a lot of people, and this is a struggle I've had in my life. but when it comes to purchases,

or there are people who want to save because they want to see a number, but they don't do anything with a number. And then there are people who are wildly irresponsible. And a lot of times, not always what they're looking for is recognition or status via what they spend. And not telling people how to live their life, but it was a fascinating, you know,

it was a very reflective book because a lot of it was back to you. And it would say things like a Rolex. and a timex, they tell the same time. If you were in an economic place and you legitimately want to invest in a Rolex, that's great because they have appreciated over time. But if you want to buy a Rolex

because you want to be seen wearing a Rolex, don't confuse the difference in that headspace. Same with tattoos. Status versus utility. I don't know if there's any utility to tattoos other than being identified by your corpse. To the point, though, is like, to that point, like, what are you going to take the Rolex

into the grave with you? Like just same with the tattoos like it talks a lot about that to experiential versus an item or an object. Yeah, which I think is huge. Correct. Something that you can pass down. Yep. Absolutely. If economically like you have you're in a place to do it.

And memories I think are the most memorable or the valuable thing that you can pass down. So it talks a lot about that. 1,000. Yeah. So financially I am constantly and I think a lot of people are, but I'm asking myself now much more intentionally over the last 90 days to use that as an example. what do I want from money? What is money mean? And I'll ask myself at any level of purchase,

is this a status or a utility? And if it's truly a utility, let's look for the most economically efficient way to get this done so I can have more money to do things with experiences. And it asks, is your desire to spend money? Is this coming internally or externally? Which by, you know, externally would largely come back

to the status internally being able to pass something down. the experiential stuff. So for the last 90 days, I have been pretty heavily looking at that. And it's interesting because you do feel the tug of, oh, you know, I remember when I was younger, oh, wouldn't it be awesome if I had that super truck? It would be so stoked if I had that truck. And I get it and you get it and like, nobody gives a shit. Yeah.

You know, and you're an upside down and at $20,000 because you rolled negative equity in from the previous car deal that you didn't think your way into. And in there. Yeah. And a Bragg Boulevard is full of those 28% interest rates. And not that we could buy high luxes, but I would if we could because those things are bad ass. You know, utility, what did I need? I should have been driving around into Prius, you know?

I don't know. That's hard. My wife has one. And it's very humbling every time I step foot in that thing. But it works for her. For the utility perspective. Yeah. It works for her.

Yeah. And it works for us because it was something that we could pay off. Yep. And we got. blindsided by a drunk driver in all the irony. You know, being a very unsuccessful drunk. I've driven drunk several times and been arrested for it. And it was very ironic that that happened in my sobriety.

And it was this challenge of like rounding that corner and I'm going to rip this person's head off because my family was in the car. And it wasn't just a little side swipe. I mean, it told our expedition. And I say all that. because because we had focused on utility, the exhibition was very appropriate at that phase in our life or leading up to that. But then we realized, why would we,

let's just get out from underneath it? They didn't give us what we owed, you know, just because that's how the world turns, you know, based on debt, you know, and credit. Yeah. And it's like this cyclical thing. And it's at the day we could have been like, well, let's just put that into a newer vehicle.

And like, well, no, we actually don't need that because I have four children. Three of them are adults. And they all have their own cars that are paid for. And that's a blessing. Their colleges, they didn't, they didn't accrue any debt in college. Huge. I mean, you want to tell you. Two of them graduated college.

Which is amazing. And it is, man. And that's something that we've been able to help create in their development, their growth of them being very proactive with looking for, for money that's out there grants and scholarships and this and that and that's been and and obviously the military service stuff has been huge while I was still active my my son was able to apply for even though he didn't go to Florida school systems because I joined the military from Florida that was my state of residence you know through through my military service because that's where I signed up and I never changed it which which came back to I mean I didn't pay state taxes the whole time

slightly beneficial but I didn't have to live there so but he was able to apply for all the Florida like academic scholarships as if he was an in-state student and then was able to graduate from Florida State in like three years. So he took a year of college that he got as a senior in high school in North Carolina and then they accepted all of it. And he graduated in less than I think three years with a degree in digital media production. And same with my daughter, but my daughter, I was retired. So I had the VA benefits and they all had a year of my GI Bill and she's saving it for her master's or for uh she's actually applying for a PA program so a med a med route and she's her bachelor's in psychology but she graduated at 20

years old without any debt and my point is is like because you talk about that in the book too and I think it's wonderful to be said is like actually wrote a note on that was like it's this how criminal that is I know you didn't touch on it a ton but like well it violates any other lending standard and it can't be there's no way to share it. you'll carry that 20, 30, 40 years down in your life. It's unlike any other lending model. It violates every fair lending standard. Yeah.

And it's almost unlimited. Another great question from that book is how much is enough? Yeah. And for a lot of people, and I think for myself, and I still struggle with this, the answer is just more. But more to do more to sit in an account so you can look at and lower it over it. and be to me I've identified enough to have reduced stress so you know your bills are going to be covered and and oftentimes people say have a 90 day fund whatever your 91 21 8 365 I don't care

whatever it is have a ever looked at Ramsey Dave Ramsey's like um he's got a bunch of structures baby steps and then the the having the expenses like up six months of expenses yeah of keeping the lights on Yep. For some people, that actually might not be enough. They might want a year. But I'm just saying if that's your thing, once you get to that, I think it's a really important question to answer for yourself. What is it that you are looking for?

And I've identified for myself that once you get to that point where you have that buffer, I think the value of money is to buy time with the people I care about to do things that we will be talking about for years to come. or when I'm gone. Yeah. Yes. So that's the after action I've done with finances. So success to me looks like three things. At the end of my life,

sorry if you've heard me say this, but I'm saying it again. And at the end of my life, who is there to celebrate that? You know, and even fast, or take that back to even more of like a very precise moment. When I walk, when we finish this, and I walk outside to call Erica and say, hey, you guys, where you at?

You know, she doesn't answer. Why? What have I done to make her not want to answer the phone? I'm not saying she might be busy, but I'm saying, like, if I walk to the car and she's not in there, and something I'm doing is the reason why, like, it's not for me, because at the end of my life, who do I want to be there to celebrate my life? that could be tomorrow. But I don't live in this like live every day,

Peter Pan, I used to. I'm a real, I'm a real, no, I'll never grow up, you know, that kind of thing. You know, bangering and all that. And so anything that gets in the way of those people not being in that room to celebrate and to remember our lives together, like it's not for me.

So that's not success. So anything that gets in a way of those things, is violating this code that I have now. And then when I do pass and I go to heaven, because that's where I'm going. When I talk to Jesus, he's going to look at me and be like, we got a lot of talk about, son. Like, let's talk about it.

And at the end of that, he goes, welcome in, good and faithful servant. So anything that gets in the way of that is not for me. And then the next, the last one would be the treasures that I build up in heaven is the work that I do. from now until then to help be that example to be a light for others a light on top of the hill cannot be hidden and there's a difference between being a quiet professional and a silent and that's been a real call on my heart this year especially just learning learning about what that means and you know how does your old unit feel about that you guys you guys I'm you guys rolling in hundreds if not

thousands of people into you guys. There is more information out there about the community that I came from. And I don't know if it's a cultural thing. And again, I feel lucky that I got to work, at least in the generation that I was in, that I got to work with guys from your command. Again, 99.85% exactly the same. The communities are defined by their similarities, not their differences. But he thinks that we hate each other.

And maybe that was pre-9-11. and there was a lot of fighting because there wasn't anything going on and it was a budget issue. But in my experience, high fives all around. So in close contact with some of the guys that I was at with A.A. Squadron. I don't know if you know this. Did you know Tom? Swooner? Indirectly. Indirectly.

He is one of my main mentors. So I don't know if you know this, though. There's a couple of seal books out there. I'm reading one right now. I don't, I mean, I wouldn't want to class it. I tried not to write like a seal book. as you know. Can I mention one thing though? Yeah.

I thought was really, it's a wonderful book. Don't take that any other way. There's a chapter where you're like, hey, if you're here to learn about buds and all that or who's going to carry the boats and all that, like this isn't where you need to be. 100%. But then everything after that is talking about like the process, but it's to get to a point. Yeah. And in Bud, so I just thought that was funny.

So I wanted to prod it you a little bit. But yeah. I didn't talk about Buds. I talked about white people quitting buds. Ah. Yeah. But yeah. So then the stories connect to the quit, right?

Correct. Yeah. Through the different. Well, my theory is so much money has been spent on the 15% of people that make it through. To me, the juice is, why did all these people give up? Why did 85% of the people ring that bell? Yeah. You can reverse engineer that stuff.

Yeah, yeah. And that's what you did. Well, I had to use that as the example because that's where I started having an understanding of the biggest impediment people put in front of them. Yeah. But there are a lot of books. There's a lot of TV shows. There's a lot of movies. Let's not pretend that there's not a TV show called The Unit.

This is the first time I ever heard about the unit was Inside Delta Force, the book, and then the show, which was the guy that wrote that book. It was a documentary. Just so we know, we can say because you were there, that everything that happened in that TV show is exactly like it was for real. It gets a little wild there towards the latter seasons. You guys, again, wrapping in that place. See these scars on my hands, man. Bleeding. there are a lot, there's less out there.

And it seems as if, and correct me if I'm wrong, there is more of a stigma for guys leaving that place and being a little bit more consumer facing. So how does that, how do you feel about wanting to be a lighthouse for people? Yeah. How has the response been from the place that you left? Has it been a challenge? Well, and I'm going to address this too because I did not leave the way that I wanted to.

Yeah. And which is, I think that's not statistically anomalous. Yeah. I think more people. There's some some massive character defects that had it not happen the way it did. I do want to touch on that. But I do want to talk about one thing that I think that my observation the past four and a half years and even before I got out was we, my former job that I did, like we, don't do a very good job and it was getting better with transition. Like how are we focusing

truly on the soldier, the service member transitioning to the next thing? Versus just saying, all right, you can have some time to go just rediscover yourself or whatever or helping kind of create an environment, which they're doing. And I got to experience that firsthand, which is awesome. But one of the big things that is the, I think you guys, and this is, you guys, and this is, an observation because I don't know the actual like truth with it is and this is from other people that I've talked to you like you guys get experienced you get to experience entrepreneurship and mentorship from some of those guys more than we do I think earlier on and working with doing you know a building trip and then there's you know we're going to bring in these you know the patriots, you know, the coaches and all these things. Like, we don't do, we don't do that. And it's, and I don't think it's not because, like,

you guys are doing it for glory or for self, um, um, success and all that for the individual. It's, it's truly a part, I think a part of like, this is going to end. But if we can, uh, expose our, our operators to, you know, these people earlier, it might help set them up in some way. That's the only thing that I've seen being the big difference,

because we're the same people. Like, it's just you join the Navy and I join the Army. Yes, and we ended up largely at the same places. Yeah. And different by, you know, inception documents and their medals and all of that stuff. But other than that, again, 99.8% the same. Like cut from the same cloth, man. 100%.

I have, there's not a single Seal Team Six guy that I've met that I've, that I haven't been like, man, that's a really, it seems like a really good person. That's been through a lot. That's, that's also come out on the other side. And that's very limited in my experience, but I can only speak from my experience. When I start to speak from, you know, absolutes and nevers, and that's when things get really sideways for me. But how does your old command look at guys coming out and being a little bit more public facing? There's just more seals out there than X-Cagg, X-Colees out there than X-Cag guys.

If you're an officer, I don't know. Because if you were an officer and you, and the thing about being an officer there, you may have retired as an officer there, but there's probably a chance if you're a high-ranking officer that that was a journey along. That was a stop along the way. For sure. So those guys, I see those high-ranking generals that talk about it. And I don't think there's a, no one bats an eye at it.

What about the guy of the boys, though, that are there 10, 15 years? So a mentor said this to me while I was in, and he had served, I don't know, 20 plus years there. And it was very humbling to hear him say this. Well, I was still there, still thinking I had more to prove and all these things. But also like, oh, what do I? I should medically retire. I don't know. And then, you know, he said this to me.

And I was just like, this is a guy that you couldn't get to stop being a Troops arm major. He did like four years and had like three. that's a touch long in the tooth. Yeah. It also prevents anybody else from being a troop sergeant major. But it was one of those opportunities and he was the right guy, man. And, you know, he said this to me. It was like it's like having a divorce with a restraining order.

And, you know, he doesn't talk about that place. He's not in the public eye. He does things very quietly and that's who he is. And not everybody is him. but even someone like that saying that to me was very eye-opening. And I don't think the higher up, the highest people in the unit, the highest ranking will ever truly understand that. They may say it because they don't have to turn their badge in. They can come and go as they please.

And I'm not looking to go back there, not because they do an annual thing. And then there's this, well, I don't know what the status is of where I stay. in there. People have told me that I was fired. I'll tell you this right now. No one looked me in the face and said, Kyle, you're fired. But that doesn't matter. Yeah. The point is, is that I left in a way I had been arrested three times since 2016, all alcohol related. One was at a hotel, one year after the Radisson. And I talked about this in pretty high level of detail, a little bit on Sean Ryan's show that I did years ago, but more recently with Mike Rittlin. which is a phenomenal dude.

And and then coming back from that, like abstaining from alcohol for everybody else, intensive inpatient, took my belt, my shoelaces, locked doors locked behind me,

I viewed it as punishment. I'm doing my time so I can go back to be in operational. And that happened two more times. The second time was a DUI. I was a T.L. I made it.

I made it. I mean it's team leader. Team leader, yeah. So I, and it was early. You know, I'd been maybe seven, eight years in the, in the squadron. What squadron were you with? B.

Okay. And I was going to medically retire. This was 2018, 2019. It was my last deployment to Iraq and Syria. And I was really trying to focus on my health and my marriage and all the damage I had done. And I was a two IC, ATL, assistant team leader. And I told them, well, there was one specific op that I had never experienced this, this emotion on an op. And it was a helo crash that I thought was, we all thought was it got shot down just based on how violent it was and why it happened.

But it was essentially a brownout, a loss of essay. And I was running towards the building because up front, you know, as the two I see. and then I hear this and I look back and it's this huge brownout flames and rotors flying everywhere and I immediately start I was we were the closest team immediately started running towards the brownout and the crash light and as I'm going through this huge it felt like an eternity this huge brownout cloud dust cloud I'm just thinking oh my god I'm going to see all my friends dead and it was the first time I'd felt that And it didn't stop me, but it definitely stuck with me after that. I came back from that trip.

It was a long mission, man, because we were not going to let any ounce of that aircraft be used against us. Yeah. Was it a 60 or 47? 60. Yeah. The pilot died on impact in the left seat pilot. And the whole half of the front glass was smashed in. And, yeah.

But, you know, so now it's triaged and get, like, get everybody away from this where it explodes. And then we were out there for probably two or three days, man, just trying to, for one, you know, fight ISIS, which is who you fought basically in 2005, six with the unit, the same people, different technology, technology, different technology, different technology. All the same drive, the same. Yeah. Same belief systems. Yeah. Yeah. The most hardened fighters have ever fought.

And, you know, so. It, uh, coming back from that, like, there was a couple things that happened and I was just like, I don't know if I can keep doing this. And there was an internal conversation. And then I remember that moment when that emotion hit you for the first time? It was running through the cloud. I didn't, I didn't think that I was like, oh, I don't know if I can do this. It was just like, whoa. And then just carry on.

But then coming back, I was so angry about a couple other things that happened about how we exfield. like how a few things it was like guys we cannot like do more harm here it's already bad enough like why are we not considering this this and this like that crew didn't need to fly back with the body we could have ex-filled the operators that were injured with the body of the pilot we didn't live with them every day work with them all the time we do rotations as they rotated in. And it just, I was, I was flipping tables, man, in the AAR and projecting, too. But I called Erica and just told her, I was like, I don't know if I can keep doing this, babe. And I talked to my therapist. I called him. He worked for the unit. God bless him. But I asked him a very direct

question. Am I doing more harm than good by staying here in this environment? And, he knew the answer, but at the end of the day, he turned it back on me like a good therapist would. He can't give it to you even if he does. No, no. You have to realize it on your own. Exactly. I wanted him to tell me, yes, you are, Kyle.

I had so many years with him. But it was so many, every time I met with him, it was in the beginning, it was very like, I'm told to. You need to do this, Kyle. If you want to stay operational, you need to do this. Okay. So I go in there and just be like, yeah, you know, I see like the phones, I see the computers.

I'm like, nah, I ain't talking about anything. Because it's at work. And, you know, he told me, you know, you've expressed me that your goal is to become a team leader in this unit. So if your goal is that, then the answer to that question, I think you already know. I'm like, oh, okay. So I call the chaplain, though, after that.

I wasn't just going to let it go. And I talked to the chaplain because I've been doing a lot of intensive marital therapy in sessions with them and Erica. And they're wonderful resource. Wherever you're at with faith or not, they're a great resource that's 100% confidential. Unless it's harm for yourself or others, it stays with them. The same criteria for psychologists, counselors, stuff as well to a therapist. Unless they work for the command. Really?

They're there to protect the command. So I wouldn't say shit to them either Yeah Yeah so What's an interesting carve out Yeah That is unfair to the person sitting there talking to them Yeah and it keeps it in house too though

So it's like one of these things where you can go out in the military system Now it's on your very openly on your record Even though it's your mental health record It's still I don't want to turn this into like I just think there's there's, you only get what you give. And if I was more openly and honest, like that trip coming back, you know how we do

those post-deployment health surveys and you lie on every single one of them? Of course. You're like, do you, do you, do you, do you, uh, did you experience this? Do you have trouble sleeping? Nope. Yeah. Do you have, like, malignant thoughts that you cannot, you know, gets out of your head? Do you feel less happiness, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I want to go on vacation. I'm all, I'm good. But this one I actually answered honestly. And they looked at me and they were like, Kyle, nope, we're going to take this serious. But we need you to maybe relook at this.

And I was like, no. Like that's the honest answers. Yeah. Like I've been very vocal with my recovery even at a time where, and that's why I never took my own life. Is because I was not above it. It was circumstantial, but it was, I never closed the door for help. at all and I think the radisson blue November 20th 2015 was like the the sparking event that everything else in my life became more unmanageable and it's very clear looking back now but through that process like you could have told me anything man and if I wasn't ready to receive it I'm going to be like okay yeah yeah just give me my pills and shut up like the psychiatrist said us he's like Kyle you need uh he's he said you've had Delta and you need Disney He said, you don't need, you don't need, uh, this is not helping you.

It's just a matter of time before this has becomes catastrophic. Yeah. And this is years into like very publicly, you know, making mistakes when I couldn't hide from him anymore, suffering in silence. And if you can perform at a performance-based organization, there's not a policy on the wall for that person. So there's people that despise me because of that. I could have been fired so many times over because of the alcohol or that.

incidents. But, you know, I fast forward to, I didn't medically retire. I did make the choice to that my troop leadership fully supported it. And after that trip, they were going to let me take the time to go start that process. And, you know, that was, excuse me, that was like at 17, 18 years in. And but before that trip finished, so Manning, obviously Manning, right? It's always the big, big talk. You know, looking at all the things and assessing who's, who's going where and all these things. And my TL, my team leader, got tasked with taking another position before he finished his time because they needed that, that was a higher priority on the bigger picture.

So they looked at me and said, we'd like to offer you the team if you, if you're willing to take it. I know that you want to medic to retire, but this, if you do this over the next two years, man, like, we'll still support you to do the medical retirement. And I, dude, I was like, let me talk to Erica, but there was no real conversation. Yeah. Like I was like, I got chills because that's all I've ever wanted to do, or at least thought, at the season in my life. And to be offered that, man, it was such a rewarding feeling knowing that, especially from where I had come from in the recovery. I don't know if it was like, I like digging holes or jumping in or climbing out, man.

But I was like, I'm done digging holes, man. This is going to help me finish this career, the way that, you know, the way that I intended, you know. And I made it a year into my TL time and I started drinking again and moved out, left Erica again. and I got that second alcohol already incident. So this time they looked at me and said, all right, we're going to move you to JSON as your punishment. I was like a staff job. Yeah, yeah.

Working in like on the jock floor and stuff, which is really a really cool broadening experience. And what it really did, which it wasn't just punishment. It was actually like, hey man, this guy is running in the red. like but but we see something in him yeah so let's give him this time and it's also punishment like I'm not going to sugarcoat it it's like you made this mistake here's there's consequences yeah they intended it as such too they probably intended it as a broadening professional development and then also as punishment which I got to do and experience a lot of things that I wouldn't have and

but and one of the big things that did happen was I I was dealing with migraines every like chronically to where I was prescribed an auto injection every month I would have to take it to try to prevent because they were so frequent. But you couple that with all the chronic pain and then the nerve, what I thought was shoulder impingements from just torn labrums and rotator cuffs and stuff,

like it was actually nerve and nerve damage from my cervical spymine, cervical ridiculopathy. So I couldn't feel my hands the way that I used to. I couldn't. A lot of things were I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't remember where I was at sometimes. I'd pull over and be like, where am I going? You know, and oh, that's okay.

This is just part of job. And so this time over at J-Soc, I started getting that really assessed. I went to NICO. Same. Yeah, and it was wonderful. but one of the things they did tell me was the neurosurgeon was like and he was my third console surgery-wise here

because you could see the inflammation up and down my spinal cord of how it was impinging at that C-6-C-7 level and the C-5-C-6 or just above it but that was really where it was focused and it was causing inflammation up and down my spinal cord which was probably the root cause of the migraines and because they tried everything. Botox, occipital blocks and all that stuff.

And I used to have to take all the abortive meds and all this stuff too. But the third console, the first console was an ortho spine at Womack and he was like, let's do a disreplacement. And he's like showing me the thing. I told this story with Mike, but he's like, showing me the thing. He's like, this is what it looks like,

and then he drops it and I was like, next. Like, no way, dude. I'm not, I was in a place where claustrophobia was starting to become a thing. Really? I was like, what is going on? I've been putting some very small boxes and through our trainings, you know?

And it's like, never experienced claustrophobia, but it was very much like manifesting. Long story short is that I ended up, you know, getting that last consult with the neurosurgeon up at Womack. And he was like, Kyle, if you want to be able to like play with your youngest daughter, which you got to meet, and in five, 10 years, like,

you need to get this because you have early stages of the symptoms of early stages of cervical myelopathy. And apparently it plateaus and then it just completely falls off to where you're going to be in a wheelchair. So I was like, okay, let's do it. And I did it. But in the process of that, a couple of things happened. COVID stopped everything. I didn't see another in-person doc for a year. And it was just pain med prescription after pain med after pain med, to the point where I was just asking for it and not needing it. Initially, it was like, this is what it feels like to not be in chronic pain, not just from this, but the lower extremities and everything, the back. But I realized, because I think they were going to give me an opportunity to come back. I would probably have started as a two-I-c

and then worked my way back up. And this is me speaking from my own personal opinion on that. I don't know, but I did come back. I did, I think, five months there. But part of that was recovery from the fusion from my C-67. But through that recovery, I called my squadron CSM and I was like, hey, I'm not going to come back to the squadron.

If you were going to allow me to, I can't go back to being operational. But I do want to continue to serve in this unit. If there's something else that you think I can do, I will absolutely do it. And he respected that and he did, they did let me come back. And they were going to have me do the breaching

is our major position. And I got so excited about that because one of my other developmental punishments was to be the master breacher for a period when I was sitting out for the squadron. So I was very passionate and I still am, but I just don't deal with explosives anymore

for my own personal health. And some new energy, young energy, not new, but leading that charge there from the research and development to all the aspects. It's a very important position in that organization. And I was honored that they would offer that to me. So I did the right seat ride through the breaching course

and was around blast for, had been six, seven months probably since I'd been around blast. And I couldn't leave my room. I couldn't leave my room because I had so, the migraines were so bad that I couldn't even like have the, I had like drape curtains over the lines and stuff. It was so bad. So then I go back to them

I'm like I can't do that job either And it was Once again They were like all right We'll find something That you can sink your teeth into There's a lot of things that we're doing And you know

Changing up and And I was like okay And it was And I did those things And nothing I felt like a jobless operator And just kind of just Push a

for the first time in a long time, felt like I was just kind of there, which is like, I don't know if that place exists for you to feel like you're just there. It's an honor, but it was something that was starting to really consume me, and I was letting it start to destroy me.

And that led to, I'm going to put in my retirement paperwork. I just picked up E9 at 19 years and I had to decline it to put in the paperwork to retire. Just normal retirement, 20 years. And a year out, you do that. And I got my retirement orders in July of 2021 and already had lined up some internships in Texas. And was like, I'm going to go reinvent myself at this data science company and this Texas, you know, bullion depository.

They buy and sell precious metal and they're a vault for precious metal and stuff. And I had to line those up and I was excited about those. And I was given those opportunities. I didn't like line those up myself. It was a lot of things that they were doing. Would they go back to the transition piece like that are helping guys make that transition? So I at a year, they let us go out and do that for six months. And, you know, July comes around.

I get my retirement orders. I'm leaving for Austin, Texas, like July 16th, I think, or 15th to start the internships. And July 8th, I got a DUI. And I didn't tell anybody. I called a lawyer the next morning because the first two times, the first people I called was my leadership. And this one, I was like, no, I can't. They're going to take my retirement. And I was in self-preservation mode, and I didn't tell anybody.

And my lawyer was like, if they don't know, don't tell them. And I'm going to get this thing continued until after your retirement. And I was, you can do that? And he did. But man, that, and then I left a week later for Texas. Now I'm out of sight out of mine, not anywhere close to the command. like on my own. Were you on Terminal leave at that point?

No, it was the year. So once you, and the Army does this too, but the windows are a little different of when you can do it. Yeah. Through the Army Skill Bridge program. Oh, so you were still active duty, but they were basically giving you time to transition. Yeah.

That's fantastic. Yeah, yeah. So basically where the Army does this, maybe they've changed it, but like they don't let guys go and do those internships until the last six months, which, come on, man, you got all kinds of things that you can't,

do until certain points. You can't clear this. You can't get this signature. You can't do that. And that takes you being at your duty station. Yeah. The unit allowed us to do it at a year. And that way, we know when we come back after only having that six months left, you could just do all your clearing stuff and then go on. So you're on active duty. And you're on permissive TDI is what it is. That's to start pursuing your civilian career. That's fantastic. It is one of the best things that I think that that's trickled down into the greater military or the army. Yeah. Through their skill bridge.

To the point where Blue Bering, like we're going to become, we've had two interns that were younger, transitioning out first in this minutes or, you know, and wanting to pursue a career in law enforcement. And we did an official internship with them. It's a wonderful program. But I went down there. knowing that I'm hiding a DUI, lying by omission. And I'm learning how to do these things. And I'm like, at first I'm like, oh, this is great. I got to become technically literate.

I got to, how can I help here, you know? And it's like, well, how about you and you just turn and face each other as you're doing this? You know? Sit side by side. Yeah. Like, they're just like literally, they're working on the same thing towards the same goal. Yeah. And they were like, why haven't we had a successful sprint?

And like the past, however many, and this is the data science piece of it. Because I was like, guys, I'm not learning out of code. Like, it's not in my, it's not in my, my, my, uh, wasn't put on earth for this. No, no. So, but I did. That skill. But just like any of us, though, like becoming a valued added member. Yeah.

And I had to become technically literate in the sense of like, can I keep, can I be a hardest conversation without being lost, like completely lost. So that helped me for a little while in the earlier stages of that internship stuff. But I just started like, this is easy. And they don't really, they're not asking too much of me. So I'd start like working remotely, which is like, why? So with post-COVID, like that was a big part of every, every company, you know, learning how to do that or being forced to do it. And it became more of a norm, I guess. guess, but that was just an excuse for me to go and party. And I wouldn't just go, because I knew I couldn't be out like at bars and stuff like that because I was a liability when I drank. And, you know,

I had came off of all the prescription meds to all the opioids. And that was, whew, that's when the drinking really picked up. And then that wasn't enough to replace that, what the opioids were doing. And that's when, you know, I'd say August, September of that of 2021, got exposed at a strip club because I would go to strip clubs. Just because I was like, I just want to feel good and look at women. Like, and not deal with people and just be very primitive, I guess. Yeah. You know, and I, but back there and see cocaine and I had never experienced cocaine.

and I was, let me see that. And that opened the floodgates for trying to chase that. Like, whatever that was, I was like 30 minutes at a time, I didn't feel anything but good. And it was very short-lived, man, because how dangerous any of those solicit substances are, man, like, just with the fentanyl and how they're cutting them everything with some, with fentanyl. And then you think about the opioids, like you're. not being prescribed anymore, but you can find them on the, on the, on the, uh, black market. The black market side. And what are they? They look like a percocet. They look like a Vicodin. They look like the same thing, but it's just fentanyl. Yeah. Like in pill pressed and all the things.

Like it's so dangerous, man. It's taken so many lives and it almost took mine. And, um, so I almost died from a fentanyl overdose, which I thought was cocaine and, and how heavy were you using? Um, I mean, anytime. So, not to make light of this, but Theo Vaughn said something that I really did connect with. And he said, man, I just can't drink anymore, man. Because every time, you know,

two bottles of beer turns into seven bottles of cocaine. And I was like, I can actually relate to that because the moment drinking was always this connection of being able to let my hair down. And then it was, and then once I got exposed to that cocaine,

it was like, let me go find that. The pursuit of it even became this like challenge. like how to find it and just the places you put yourself to get it. And it was just like, it wasn't daily, but it was the same way with my alcoholism. Like I was a high functioning alcoholic. Like if I had something the next day, I would not show up under the influence. I didn't need to wake up and drink. I didn't need to wake up and use a drug.

Is that how you self-justified? That's exactly how I rationalized everything. Up to that point, a lot of things that are like on the surface, people are like, how in the heck? Do you rationalize those things? And I'm like, I don't know, I did. It's the human condition. What they're hearing you describe is an incredibly accomplished high-level CAG operator who has left the command on a one-year, what did you call permissive T-D-Y?

It was a six-month permissive T-D-Y. Six-month permissive T-D-Y. So you just can't get paid by those internships. Correct. And focusing on the next what you're described. All while hiding in DUI. That's what I'm saying. And the behaviors that you're talking about.

People are going to have a tough. time aligning those two things. Yeah. Well, I did it. It's not recommended, so don't do it. But there's hope. That's the reason I'm talking. That's going to take this full circle about the public eye, you know, and all these things. The reason I'm in the public is to be a positive meal role model at home, which I am, because I am the same man that's in front of you right now as I am when I go home. And whether I'm training people that takes me away from home,

they got the same husband, the same father that's representing and carrying them with everywhere I go. It's no longer about what can I do. What can I do? What can I accomplish? It truly is like service.

I am a servant leader that I'm in service to my wife, my children, and then my community. And those are very like, some of the gifts that God's given, given me and so many others of to be able to communicate that through teaching, through shooting, moving, communicating, medicating. Do you think you were the only one struggling like that? And I'm not trying to get you to

air out anybody from your community. What I can say with 100% certainty, what you are describing, the behaviors, the internal struggle, the addictions. Navy side of the house has plenty of people that are struggling with that as well too. What I see, though, man, so the answer to your question is suffering in silence, man. Like, absolutely. Suffering in silence. And in comparison is the thief of joy. Like, well, those guys are doing this and that, they didn't get into that.

Who cares? What I care about is what I'm doing with those experiences, given the opportunity I get to versus I have to. I'm no longer a victim of them in my life. And I was for, and one of my anchoring scriptures is 1st Corinthians 1311 of the childish ways of thinking and acting have to cease when you become a man. It took me 37 years to become a man. Almost five years of sobriety. At this point today? Yeah.

That's awesome, man. Congratulations. Thank you. And four years of following Christ. So to me, I've got, I'm very young, you know, but I have a lot of wisdom through experience. And it doesn't erase any of those things. But the freedom that I've been able to access through those decisions, everything I have is anchoring on my sobriety. I don't ruminate on being an alcoholic.

I will go to an A.A. meeting with you, with anyone, with anyone that's that I can help by being there. But I refuse to sit there and say, I'm Kyle. I'm an alcoholic because I'm not. I was. I've been made new and people can say what they want about this, but to be washed in the blood of Christ has given me this opportunity, which is freedom, is true freedom. And I can describe this as the instinct and the action, the space, is where freedom lies. And you know what else is in there?

That I'll never rob myself of or let anyone else is peace and joy. It's no longer pleasure, it's joy. like this morning looking at the sunset not not being able to sleep i could have been really angry but it was for clarity we should describe though why you can't sleep that flew in a little bit more of the northern latitude yeah up here sun went down last night about 10 30 yeah we're talking on the phone it was in the nine o'clock out and you're like man i don't know what time it is i get it gets like that up here and then you're like it also sunrise around five and and it's beautiful strap in that we have like for the Airbnb.

But man, it was just like, whatever. Yeah. Like, okay, I didn't sleep well. What am I going to do? Quit. Yeah. Or be present. Be where my feet are.

And I got to have a moment, an experience with my wife in the morning as she's doing her reading and her reflection. And to share that space with her and the sunrise. It was just such a beautiful thing. and that's one of the reasons why I'm here. And obviously, and your willingness to allow me to come on the podcast, and I'm very appreciative for you making this happen. But my point is, is the freedom between the instinct and the action.

The instincts are going to come. The intrusive thoughts are going to come. That's why Paul tells us to take every thought captive, because it's the hardest thing to do, because they're racing thousands of miles an hour. But I have somewhere to go with it. And I don't, when I feel something, after a thought, okay, feelings don't drive my life anymore. It's just a gauge. It's a blessing.

And then my actions, like I don't, things look differently now. I act differently. I think differently. I'm a man. And, you know, but I wasn't back then. I was lost. If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there. That's how I've lived my life up to that 37-year-old Mark and it took like it took true sobriety which I learned in the rooms of AA I did it led me to a true belief surrender of a power a powerlessness no longer its weakness it's an it's an asset turning it into an asset and then a surrender of that affliction to a higher power and your life that's the part that people miss like they're like yes I'm gonna surrender this affliction to

that power, but also my life. And that's what changed. And I began help me, help me see that. And I won't advocate for psychedelics at large, but Ibegaine is different. And I've done a lot of different treatment modalities. And the reason that Ibegain was able to be as effective as it was is because of all those things. And being ready to receive. Because it doesn't matter what you do. If you're not ready to receive it, you're going to go back to doing those other things. And, you know,

but to come to finish the part that I'm, the lying by a mission piece was something that had I gotten away with, I would not be sitting in front of you, Andy. There's no way. There's no way. So coming back from all that, having just overdose towards the end of that year, mind you, July I went down to,

got the DUI, July 8th. July 15th, I'm in Texas. August, September, I get exposed to cocaine, very short-lived and overdosed. Did you get an arcand to come back? Yep. Yeah. And then, which, it was a near-death experience, man. I literally saw myself from outside of my body, like, coming back and forth.

But, like, what I saw was I was disgusted with. I looked at myself and I was like, who is this man? I could no longer rationalize acting the ways I was acting. I don't care how skilled I thought I was. Risk is relative, which I do believe that risk can be mitigated with collective and individual experience. But that applied to everything in my life. And that point, though, like, they circled the wagons again, the unit. And they were like, how...

Did they know about the overdose? Oh, yeah. I'm assuming that it was probably a mandatory report by the police. No, it was just people that I was working with down there. Not to try to drop a dime on me. They were just like Kyle needs help. Yeah. And he is.

They were doing it in your best interest. Yes, absolutely. So thank you to those guys. Man, I love you guys. And I know that I'm not connected with a lot of the people that I used to be, but I still care about, y'all. And I appreciate everything that you guys have done for me and my family. and um but they circled the wagons again man and they were just like how what's going on man like

we've tried so many different things you've tried so many you've been very vocal with all these things we know that you're putting in the work like what's what's missing and i was like i don't know i have to get sober and i i don't i've never gotten sober for anyone else other than uh never gotten sober for myself i've stained for appearances for perspective or perceptions to go back to doing this job. And I need to, I need to retire. And wasn't a given. They could have made me,

they could have taken all of that right then. And they, they said, all right, we're gonna, we're gonna let you carry on with your retirement. I was signing out March, or end of March of 22. And, you know, just did all my clearing and, you know, did all the mandatory Army substance abuse stuff now. That's the thing, they no longer let this.

like go outside of the military channels. I got to go more. Or no, got the go more after. And that's what I'm about to say is, so now I'm going through the Army substance abuse. And now it's like very military rigid. Everything else,

it was like the unit trying to find other creative ways to get me help, but to maybe avoid the bigger military record stuff. So, and my security. clearance like the personnel security called and said to my direct supervisor like there we got a flag in kyle's security clearance and i'm not there i'm driving around doing something i don't know and um my direct supervisor calls me and he's like how i security just called they said this flag for a DUI back in july came up and i had an opportunity right then to come clean and i let the pause and then he said are they

talking about the one that you got two years ago and I was like oh man they must be and I say it in a very like I'm lying kind of perspective but I was very deceptive with how I said that yeah and immediately knew that that was wrong but hung up the phone and went into straight panic self-preservation mode but ultimately I drove to my direct supervisor's house that that that afternoon that evening and uh and told them i came clean no that was that was a DUI that happened before i went down to texas and i i didn't tell you guys about it and that's that character defect that there was many but that was one that was still was was there that had it not happened exactly the way it happened i wouldn't be here right now because everything would i would have gotten away with

something i had retired with honor and and gotten away with something thing. So what the unit did, they didn't take my retirement. They let me keep my retirement orders intact to sign out on terminal leave exactly when I was going to already. They, they administratively moved me from the unit to Ussesak, which is Special Operations, Army's Special Operations Command, right down the street to retire from there. So I did two months at Ussesok and I signed out on terminal leave. And And that's how I left the unit. And it's one of those things where my abilities masked a lot of the struggles I was going through,

my ability to perform at a very high level at a place where you struggle would be mediocre every day. And my identity was so wrapped up in it. And this is the part where, you know, I don't know if it can't be. Like, but it can't be the only piece of your identity. Or if it's the only thing you have when it goes away, you are absolutely lost. And you're never going to replace that. There's nothing else out there like it.

I don't think you can operate at those levels without it consuming you to a degree. Yeah. But I think not managing that consumption or not being aware of it is where it gets very, very dangerous. You know, you say it took you 37 years to become a man and get a handle on it. Let's say that that had happened. Let's rollback 15 years before. before that, you were able to perform, I love the way that you said that, perform at a high level at a place where people struggle to be mediocre every day. That is literally the best description

I've ever heard of the people that I worked around. When people say, it's so humbling, man. When people say, why do you always say your career is average? I'm like, you don't know the guys I work with. Yeah. And legitimately, it was. But if you would have had that realization and awakening 15 years before, what do you think it would have done to your ability to perform at that place? Today's episode is brought to you by Element or LMNT, depending on how you would like to say it. First and foremost, go to drink elemente.com slash cleared hot. That's the landing page. When you go there, what you're going to see is their newest product, which is lemonade plus iced tea, slightly caffeinated.

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50 milligrams, I think, is about a third of a traditional cup of coffee. If you go to, and why I recommended going to drink elemente.com slash cleared hot, is you're going to get a free sample pack. So these are the little sachets that it can come in. I'm looking at it right now is citrus, raspberry, lemonade, and watermelon. and it'll let you know what you like and maybe what you don't like. The variety is increasing, the flavors are changing, but what hasn't is what they are delivering. I have described this as the old movie Tron, where they put the disc into the water and they drink and you feel the glow or the

blue start to be brighter than it was before. It's basically what it feels like. This saves me every time that I train. It's a daily ritual afterwards. I can absolutely feel the difference, and you will too. It helps with hydration. It helps with recovery. It helps me with cognition. all of those things. Again, drink elementi.com slash cleared hot. Check out their new lemonade iced tea. And then you can just go shop to your heart's content. Drink elementtie.com slash cleared hot. Back to the show. You know, I don't think about things like that. I think it's a wonderful question. I used to think about a lot of things if I would have done them differently. But for me, I will answer the question. But my point is, is that I'm not God.

So I don't live in the past and try to change anything. I'm not trying to get you to live in the past. The mind space that I'm thinking of this from, and this is a thought or a question that I don't have the answer to, but it comes down to what is the cost of that occupation? A lot of people, the cost expresses itself in the struggles that you were talking about. We both know plenty of friends and peers that have had substance abuse issues, chemical abuse issues. Taking their own life.

Taking their own life. And then a lot of the things that led up to that as well, too. And the question, I guess, is, is it possible to work at that level at those places and not have some of that residual darkness stick to you? if your identity is anchored in something bigger than you yes yeah and i i saw it but even beyond the identity piece what they ask from a time and it's going to change it's going to change it's it's absolutely going to impact and change you yeah and there's been guys that are more vocal Derek nita leading is one of them that worked there for a long time did a lot of really awesome things and was a follower and a believer uh in god and christ but it it it changed some and then tom's

Spooner is another example of he he served there sober he'd been sober far far before he got there but it still was a massive part of his his own recovery and healing he didn't you know relapse on it he didn't compromise the sobriety but man it changed every aspect of him ask his wife lorry and he talks about it very publicly so i think the guys that to answer the question of could i how would it have changed my service there? Meaning, do you think you would have been an even better operator? I think so. Yeah.

I think so because even though I didn't have the words that to put to my values, my values were the Army values. Yeah, of course. They were very situational. The words were. But the moral injury that would happen over and over that just compounds and compounds. I was just like, this isn't right. Like, I don't know what's wrong, but I don't feel good about myself and why.

I'm doing what I'm asked to do. I'm seeing the things that I'm being called to be in and the environments and intimately taking other human beings' lives over and over. And it's like, well, this is my job. Not everybody can do it. It started to become, for me, about me. I can do it. And that's why the Radisson was such a pivotal point.

if I, because I've thought about that a lot too, is like, why is that lasted or impacted me so much? It was very different in the sense of like the biggest thing was, I thought I was better than I was. So I thought I was more capable. And it exposed me because of the team. Yeah. Is great. I am okay if I can be a part of that team. It's such an honor and I'm going to serve well and I did.

And you could trust me. You didn't have to think about what I was doing. When you went left, I go right. Like, you didn't have to think about that. that's the brothers in arms man that's the the very different than a brotherhood which we talk about brotherhood a lot and it's it's very different um how much are you able to say about the radisson i know that there are sensitivities um and also you covered it well on with sean and mike so we don't necessarily need to retread on that but i also don't want to diminish i mean you that you were awarded the distinguished service cross for that which is the second highest ward uh in the u.s military I'll leave it up to you if you want to cover the specifics. Because I know here's what people want. They want Andy and they want me to share something that they haven't heard.

They want us to sit down and they want us to tell war stories. And I am so resoundingly uninterested in that. What I am interested in is what you described, even with somebody like Tom Spooner, where he had sobriety in check, but it changed the person that he was. I am way more interested in talking in the cost. of what that job will change in you. Because one of the questions I was going to ask is, how do we prepare young men and women now,

depending on where you're at inside those organizations? How do you prepare them for that? Can you prepare them from that? But again, I know that the Radisson is pivotal. It's interesting to me that you said, though, pivotal from you because of the individual versus the team setting. Yeah. I will let you describe that situation to whatever degree you want.

I will say, though, you did a with Sean and Mike Ritalin, if people want to go get, they want to do a deep dive into that. I think it's been told well. I'd rather talk about the cost associated with it. Even when I talk about it, it's to get to the cost. Yeah. But not just to leave it at the cost. Yeah.

It's to leave people with hope. That's going back to this higher mission, this new mission of being a positive male role model for our nation's youth, the next service members, the current ones, the guys that are older than me. Like it's being an example with my actions and then words. So finding the words to share, putting words to my values and not violating those. Because integrity is not is not situational. But if you, and that's the human nature side of this is like we do things and then it impacts us and we can't make sense of it.

but then we keep doing them some, and then we expect why we're surprised why it's impacting us in a deeper way now or a more aggressive way. And then we try to blame something else. I'll blame my wife. She's the problem. This, the Radisson, for one,

I think this takes a kind of full circle back to the, this delegation of tasks, the empowerment, the one-up, two-down thing, very clear I was in the right place at the right time and I am absolutely the right person because of those organizations that I work for. And this inherent nature to protect it's inside of all of us.

And to run towards the sound of the guns. Yeah. And all the things I had done up to that point prepared me for being in the right place at the right time and moving to the sounds of gunfire. based on painting a picture real time and what it really was and this is why I'm so passionate

our vertical as a company a training company is active attack active shooter response training because this was a terrorist planned hit attack excuse me but it was an active attack it was an active shooter and it was just I was on a deployment

wearing a suit to an embassy to the U.S. Embassy maintaining a relationship so we can hand it off to you you guys your former Oh, really? Yeah. So we could go after.

Thank you for that, by the way. So we could be, yeah, you're welcome. Good job. Flicking the burger. And it's not that there wasn't work to do there. There was so much work from a counterterrorism perspective because of al-Qaeda, AQIM, I know. ISIS built back in there. God, we went after.

The Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria. My goodness, there are deep, deep pockets in other places. So this attack, though, I was lost, man. I didn't want to be there. I was like, my team is, is, is. going after ISIS. I had just spent a couple months, kind of no notice, going after ISIS that year. And I was like, let's go. But then I got told, ball and told, like, we need you to do this, this one. And I wasn't supposed to be doing it. Someone else was. And they looked at their leadership

and said, I don't feel comfortable, you know, wearing a suit and talking to the interagency folks and stuff. And I was like, what do you mean? And either way, when that call happened in the morning, It was really early in the morning. I got a phone call from someone that worked at the embassy about an active attack. And I didn't, I was in country for three weeks. I didn't even know it, Choi, was freaking up, man. I was still trying to figure out and partying the whole time. I showed up and here's your Ninja Turtle costume.

You're going to be Michelangelo. And I was like, I love Michelangelo. And it was just like, welcome. This is what this trips, Vespers and cocktail hours and due to-dos. And they're like all these things. And I was, oh, okay, I can. I can do that. Just belligerent though and blackout, getting blackout drunk and just very lawless too.

And in that environment of like this false sense of security and freedom to maneuver in the city of Bamako, Mali. And ignorance is not, ignorance is bliss until it isn't. And when that call happened, I was like, this is why I'm here. So there was no, like, it was easy for me to like grab my stuff. because it was already packed. I was like, let's go. I want you to get me out of here. I want to go be with my team.

And our stuff's always packed. Like, regardless of the mission, like, our stuff's always packed. So everything that that unit had done, or and the infantry and seven special forces group and the special forces training and the missions I did with them, everything prepared me to become,

to be the protector, to move to the sounds of gunfire, to not ask for permission. I didn't ask a single person if I could go in that hotel. Did I think I had the authority to? I didn't care. I was in the right place at the right time,

and I knew that my unit would back me. There wasn't a doubt in my mind, not even a split second of doubt. I didn't have to ask them. I just moved. There was no time. It was inherently time-sensitive. And that's what the unit does,

and Steel Team 6 does, and that's what, that's why that organization exists or those organizations exist and we we kind of lose side of that sometimes but we're reminded of it a lot of times too um but i went into this with this what's the house to rescue man um let me paint the picture boom got my first point uh that's my start point got a number for american american in a room on fire like let's go uh to safe for our innocent life and could care less where the shooters were. A little different than, as I've learned, an appropriate active threat response, direct to the threat. But I applied what I knew to that point.

And I was like, well, speed, surprise, bounce of action, surprise me the most important. They have the upper hand. They have the high ground. They have momentum time. I need to reduce the amount of time, but I also don't know where they are. This is a very confusing hotel. And so I used the side entrance and started clearing, realized that, man, this sucks. This sucks. I love CQB, man. Operationally training for it. I love it.

Not by your onesies. No, but I wasn't by myself. So that's the thing is I want people to be very clear. I said this on Mike's show too. I, in my positions past, had form a relationship with warriors in that, in that country. Because we have to. It's about survival. Yeah.

We break bread together, do a lot of drinking together and occasionally train together. So one of the things the first couple weeks, I was like, hey guys, there's a range that we, I got all kinds of ammo. Y'all want to go shoot. So just starting to build rapport again with those guys. And there was two Morsok guys in the country doing a different mission. And not a kinetic thing, more of like a information thing.

And then the regional security officers, the State Department's law enforcement. They're the ones that, you know, should have the ins and outs of any, any hotels that we put TDI personnel into, you know, know as a part of the U.S. Embassy mission, but it was easy. Rally on me. I was the closest to the hotel. They rallied on me. I'm going to check on my next door neighbor, and that's where I got my first start point. They're gathering, those other guys are gathering information because

they're in country for a lot longer than me. I mean, the State Barber guys live there for years. The Marsock dudes rotate in there every year for six months at a time. So they have built, a ton of rapport based on their mission, but we'd never work together in CQB and none of that. And I was just like, well, force multiply. That's what build a team on the fly. And I think doing those small unit exchanges, I tell this to law enforcement,

I'm like a true tactician, for one, lets the situation, mission, environment, tell them the tactic technique to use as the situation's evolving. You won't see it if you're so focused on here. But the, the force multiplication being special forces guy training partner forces and all the small

unit exchanges I've done with the other tier one units across the world in the unit like all those things were preparing me for this moment and how long would you say from when the event kicked off to when you made entry how much time it may be 45 minutes okay and it's probably three quarters of a mile from where I lived so and that's the part that ate me up man like I felt like I could have got in a little sooner and I could have saved one more person. But, you know, I let that, I let a lot of things, I didn't let anything consume me. It did consume me. Like, I didn't get a chance to prepare my mind, body, and spirit for, for the mission, for violence. I'm a very violent person or can be. It's controlled now. Think of meekness as, is harness power. That's what Christ was and that's what I

want to be and it's power under control. I'm capable of extreme violence. I choose peace. And the only way I say that is if I keep sharpening those skills, like we talk with jujitsu, like getting back into that and something I could do with my daughter and all these things like the shooting piece, I have not let the gas off. I'm a better shooter now than I've ever been. And that's huge because I have to pay for every round I shoot. Yeah. Like it's, it is, it is expensive. But it's worth it. It's a different light item. And it's not doing it to show off. Yeah. I'm doing it to be a consummate professional.

All those things, the ethos, the pursuit of excellence that I was, that was ingrained in me through those cultures or those environments, specifically at the unit is what I'm trying to do and what I'm doing with my, with Blue Bering, with the training stuff. But I did not get a chance to, and this is why like people don't understand. And you talk about this in the book, but like the excruciating level of detail of planning that we do or that my former unit I was in did was earth shattering. SF, absolutely, military decision-making process. The MD&P process, it's awesome. Like the ODA, how it's constructed, is just such a capable force multiplying force that you could put down anywhere.

But then the unit is just like the excruciating level of details and planning and contingency plans and rehearsals was mind-blowing to me. Plus the staff to support all that too. Yeah. And you've got people off there building freaking mock-ups and you're waiting and not waiting when you get to that.

point of rehearsals, it's already built. Yeah. And it's not like, oh, look at us. We're pampered. No, we are good stewards of every resource that this government gives us or my former self. And that's what people don't understand. We pick up every round we shoot, every brass casing, we pick up. Like, it's a lot, but we're good stewards of it, man, and resource appropriately. But in this case, like, I did not get to plan for this. I did not get to practice any contingencies, rehearsals with my ad hoc team. It's building a team on the fly and reacting.

And that's what it was reacting in trying to take back control of what I could with my presence. And being hard to, staying hard to kill. Like, I can't save anybody from this threshold, man. I got to get in the room. And I also got to breach the door. And I got to be the point, man. And, you know, not all the time. My point is that I've never been trained with those guys.

It was very... Pick up basketball. Yeah, exactly. Awesome dudes. Love those guys. And I could not have been... We couldn't have done what we did, had we all not been the right people.

But it was not a solo op. What's being misconstrued across the world is that this was a solo hostage rescue. And I was deployed by myself. And that really comes into play after. Because I suffered in silence It's by myself. And it, you know, the actions on.

Longest day of my life saw things that I hadn't, I don't know, I didn't know why they impacted me, but dressed like you are, death. It was new. I hadn't experienced that, those environments. There's kind of a ritual, even like you're talking about at those units. It's, I always used to put my gear on the same way and in the same order and I would take it off the same way. There's a process.

And care for my gear. I load my gun the same exact same. Exactly. And magazines are always, I know every ounce of my gear. And it helped me, I guess, you know, using the analogy of packing a parachute, it helps you pack your mind. Yeah. That would be.

It's a process of visualization that you're, as you're doing it. I've never been exposed. What you're talking, what you're talking about, that is fascinating. Think about the unknown floor plan. Even that alone. You want to get me excited. Yeah.

Give me a team of us and give us a target that's set up role players or paper. I don't care. Yeah. Unknown floor plan. No intel other than the mission. The why. Why are we going into this building and structure? Has to be answered.

Yeah. And then we can adjust our tactics appropriately. But we just, we, we, we, we pivot based on simplifying the chaos because of the fight, fighter freeze response to survive works the back brain. The back brain shuts down the front. And this is me like primitively talking about it. But to do one of those three things, that's why little things become harder.

That's why you get tunnel visioned. That's why you can't hear, you can't speak the way you normally do. You get clumsy. You don't see things the way that they could be seen. But what happens through experience, through exposure, through good training and operational challenges, it becomes a problem solving. The back of the brain no longer shuts down the front. Everything slows down. And you start to be

like, do, do, do, do problem solving. And you're puzzle master. And people are like, how do you see so much? I'm like, because I know what to look for. I know how to safeguard my bandwidth in this space. I'm not looking at people's eyes. Because they're super deceiving. You're the puzzle master. I'm looking at yours right now. I'm like, what is he looking at? No. So something at the ends of your hands can kill you right away. I was going to say, I've never once looked at a target's eyes. No. Still to this day, I catch myself.

It's hands first. Any unknown area, it's always hands. I tell people two things in a course with us. Like, any three-day experience with us, man, like, we want you to walk away every day with a tangible thing to take away, and we write it down. We don't leave until we capture that thing. We hope you get to that thing, but from that day. So by the end of the training, three days is where our course is.

You have three things, and probably a few. more but written and we compile all this with instructor feedback your scores on certain scoreable events and then we send it to you and um because there's so many things that that you can work on but you don't know if you don't know where to start like we just try to simplify the common the common threads talking about what unites us first divides us i'm not spending time talking about why don't you pan or pie across this door or that and it's like what's the reason i'm going in here I've already answered. You're here for a reason to safeguard innocent life.

Do you think you can do that from inside the room or outside? Maybe. Yeah. But the priority life scale in an active attack is innocent civilians, number one. First responders, number two. And then offenders, attackers. So in that situation, the answer to the question is, yes, like the party life scale is intact. Their lives are more important than yours.

And that's why in a Hasadreski situation, you're dynamic. you're going in. Yeah. Well, and the whole dynamic versus deliberate thing, it bothers me because people, like, they've now, and this is something that I was taught, too. It's not like, I've just in reflection, I've been like, man, all CQB is dynamic. It's just how dynamic is the environment. You do the same shit just faster. And it's all deliberate, if you're being honest with yourself, because deliberate doesn't mean slow. Deliberate means intentional. It means predictable. It means in control of the throttle. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. It's the same stuff applied generally faster. Yeah. No, absolutely. Because in lieu of cover or even concealment of these drywall walls that we're hiding behind doing all these things, the enemy doesn't have to discriminate. They can shoot through those. And maybe you just haven't been challenged yet. And you're like, we have to do this. When someone tells me, a tactical team tells me, we have to do this a certain way. I'm like, guys, you don't have to do anything. What's the mission? That's what you have. What's the no fail mission? And what's happening across our country?

is that you have SWAT teams, and this is a broad statement that are being challenged in their operational environments with high-risk search warrants and arrest warrants, and then occasional, you know, domestic that turns into a hostage situation that negotiations fail. They do a crisis entry. But they don't train. They don't train to the no-fail mission. They train to the operational mission because they're more operational than they are training. Whereas we were we worked, we were more training than operational.

For sure. Like, if you look at the bigger numbers, like we trained way more than we did operations versus orders of magnitude. Orders of magnitude. Yeah. And it's and this isn't me being like, oh, law enforcement. What's wrong with you? No, I'm here to help.

But the two things that you can do, law enforcement, private citizen, to take ownership of our environments everywhere we go, like you mentioned as you walk around, look at hands, make a game out of it. Just don't bring your hands. up because then it becomes like a, what do you do? And you might get arrested. So, and read doors, man, that's the biggest thing is like, be a gentleman. The breach is a gentleman. That's why the breacher goes in last, unless there's her half an arm distance gap, because he's got to progressively breach, one hand to two to kick to tools, to shotguns, to explosives, all the things, whatever

resources you have. But my point is, is that it's not an absolute, it's a rule of thumb. But be a gentleman. Open the door for your wife, pulling a hold stack left. She never digs her corner, though. And you're like, dang. She really doesn't. Dang. She just walks into the center of the room. Yeah. With no regard. Like,

she's not checking any fucking angles. Yeah. Actually, she's not. She, not to get off track, my wife is hilarious. If an intelligence agency were to view her specifically on her drive home, they would think she is a highly trained intelligence asset. Because she finds. All the, all the, all the. Yeah.

She takes a fucking SDR every day on the way home and she doesn't mean to. She's like, do to do. That is a. So we have Life 360 and I'll be looking at it. And I'll call her, why are you over there? Oh, I missed the turn. So now I'm just kind of going where the road leads. If an agency, they'd be like, son of a bitch.

Yeah. We have found the most trained at never once has she gone home. We have a move, by the way. And she's just, I'm like, whatever. Yeah, every time open the door for it. Doesn't clear a single corner for me. But like reading doors, man. It's such an, if you want to increase your ability to process a tactical,

a close quarters battle environment. Remember there's a battle it's a battle for morality. So understand it's either a corner fed entry or center fed. How do we determine those? There's a human size void to one side beyond that threshold? Corner fed. If there's a human size void to both sides beyond that threshold, center fed. Why does that matter? For strong wall teams, it doesn't, but ask a strong wall a corner fed room. And I haven't seen it done yet. So they do points of domination. They just don't want to say it. They just don't go all the way to the corners. And what we teach is you don't have to. The room, once you open the door, you're processing the same things. Whether you take and make the L, making an L is important. If there's dead space in the room,

which is a void, a human-sized void in depth of the room, the center of the room. I just try to simplify it. And I don't speak from this like, why is this so hard? It's just like, my job is to simplify these environments because the enemy, the unknown floor plans. And then the ability to train everywhere you go instead of being like, well, we don't get the resources, man, read doors. Yeah. Like you're on a patrol partner zones. Like you get to do a building search.

They get access to places that none of us do. All the time. All the time. And when safe and when appropriate, it takes one to set a precedence from within. Let's clear this building now. Again, after we've did this building search safely because it could just be a building search that turns into a close quarters battle. Morality.

Remember, there's something in there. someone, something that doesn't want us there, but we want to be there. So we got to take it, you know, when it transitions to CQB. I just try to simplify it as much as I can, but reading doors is so, is such a useful tool. You know, what am I looking at? Hinges, is it recess knob? Why am I looking at those? Is it a pull or push?

Which way does it go, you know, towards me or away from me? How do I set up? Spoiler, people. If you can see the hinges, it comes towards you. But not to be confused with like alcoves. You see that in schools a lot. Even though it's recessed, it's, what I mean by recess is the casing, the threshold. Yeah.

Like it's not flush with the wall that is put in on. And that helps you increase your ability. People talk about CQB IQ and the art side of it and all that. It's problem solving. But the IQ piece, I think, comes from knowing what to look for because that's now, because all these other weapons handling skills, all the stuff that we do on the range has to be done at nauseam. so everything else, because guys don't get to do life fire CQB.

I did that every day. Yeah. On the range and in the house. Everything, we'd use Sims for force on force to pressure test, you know, larger scale things. But that's, okay, I don't get to do that anymore. And so how do we maximize the training environments that we have? And it's knowing what to look for or how to free your bandwidth up. So things are running in the background.

Yeah. So consciously. through touch things happen they're not supposed to i give it what it needs people they give me feedback i give them input based on the appropriate feedback that i desire you know and same to reduce the number of surprises that you present yourself with no i totally get what you're saying that's why our motto at our company is prepare for the known and react to the unknown because the knowns that i have i have to continue to prepare for because just because i used to be this doesn't mean i'm good at it anymore doesn't mean there's still a known to me so i can never get complacent with those things

that are good for me my life. And we could use shooting, moving, communicating as an example, but it's just anything good for me, my life. I have to practice. And then if I'm willing to share them with you, they can become unknown for you, if you find it helpful for you in your life, and vice versa.

So we can prepare for more knowns and then reacting to the unknown. What is the unknown? Control. Unknown is fear. It's the uncertainty of what's through that doorway. It's the car accident that you're trying to avoid.

It's the, miscarriage that you're dealing with in your relationship. You didn't expect it, but you're in it. So you have to react with what you have, and that's the knowns. And that's our motto at Blue Bering. So what about the Radisson caused you to suffer? He said you suffered in silence. What was it about that?

So there's, for one, over exposed from a physical, mental, and spiritual. They, if they, I wasn't a follower of Christ back then, but, but if you couldn't recite their Quran, they were executing people. And I found that out later,

but it just, oh, in the hotel. In the hotel, yeah. And I told you the way that the people were dressed, just something was not like, it didn't stop me, but it was like, could not compute,

you know, and, you know, some of the, the overwhelming environment that I didn't have the troop, the squadron to overwhelm. And it becomes this like,

problem to solve. It was a problem to solve, no doubt, but I was overwhelmed and I never stopped. And then you couple the overpressure, the blast. I got shot from five feet away in a stairwell. That's what this scene is. And the only thing that saved my life is the first round was met for my face because I'm looking down a muzzle. It was very weird to look down the muzzle from that close. And how did you find yourself staring down the muzzle? Running up the stairs and they were coming down. Our paths just crossed based on I was looking for the highest floor that I had Americans that I had gotten information on. Their room numbers. So poor time meeting and a stairwell.

Yeah. They got the high ground and I'm running up. And stairwells are, so if it's not a corner fed, if it's not a center fed, it's either a hallway or a stairwell. So you still take it like room until it shows you it's not. And with practice as a collective, like it becomes a little bit safer. Oh, yeah. But it's the most dangerous. Linear danger area.

And then you add the depth, the height. the elevation. Fighting up hill sucks. It always has. And, you know, they got the drop on me, you know, trying to turn and do that pivot to clear the landing above me. Like I've done so many times.

But as I'm stepping across from the outside to the inside track, like I'm turning and then I see these guys and I look and that's when I'm, that's when that first round I look down the muzzle and he cracks that thing off and now I'm blacked out, like smacked up against the wall and I'm, but I'm shooting because I come right back to and I'm engaging rounds that are missing.

And I didn't talk about that for a long time. So the concussive blast that you? Yeah. What was it, AK? AK. Okay. Shorty. Oh yeah, because that's pushing some gas out there.

Yeah. And it was pretty close, man. Like just relative, you know, through, you know, lateral separation and vertical, but like, really close. And I only know that that first round because I couldn't make sense of why that didn't kill me. I didn't stop fighting. But I missed several rounds. And that, I don't miss. Like, that's the part where it's like, you should be, you should be ashamed of yourself. I know. But I know we joke around about it. But it's like, but it's like, if I can't account

for a shot, I don't need to do this job. Like everything. That's one way to not take the shot. Sure. That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is a guy was had an, AK shoved in your face and you're doing the best that you could. And I was. And there's there is grace for this. And I, I, but suffering in silence. I didn't want to share that with anybody. Let's, I thought they would look at me differently.

But let's be clear though, too. I don't know all of the training evolutions you've ever done in your life. But I bet you never put a buddy up on a stairwell and said, hey, with this live AK, as I clear this, I need you to crack around off right in my face. Yeah. So you train to the limit that you can inside of a safe parameter. it's not going to prepare you for every single situation. No, I agree.

I understand why you wouldn't want to talk about it though. But I was middle management at this point. I was a three I see and just like earning my stripes, man, feeling good about what I'm, you know, my addition to this, the most capable fighting force on the planet and I'm by myself, you know. Where did the round impact? Behind me.

Like, it didn't go right with the top of your shore. It wasn't just one. It was like five or six rounds after. So that first one, I know that was like for my face. Yeah. Because I went back there with the FBI, put a suit back on. I'm with them. And I went back there for days on end.

And I said it was for my own story boards and all that to AARs. And part of it was, but it was to try to make sense of everything, why I was still here. And that I have a photo that I've shared on Sean Cho and that railing, that's the photo I took from my perspective and from the shooter's perspective and that's only thing it makes sense from a science perspective and but i think pulp fiction like saying i actually was thinking that as you're telling every other round after i was just like and it's this concrete stairwell fire you know fire evacuation stairwell and it's just they're just popping all around me and then you know i'm also stumbling while i'm now returning fire and then i i just saw red i went now i'm down on the landing and i yell

at this at these guys like scream I used to cuss a lot I don't cuss anymore and that's been very intentional but for me and um it changes the way I interact with myself and others and I don't get as angry and all these it's been such a beneficial thing in my life but I scream some obscenities at these guys and went running back up because I was going to try to use speed to get to to gain some momentum based on the engagement that just happened both ways and as I'm doing that I hear the primer pop I hear a la Akbar on the Russian style grenade and it's very audible you know and I knew it's on a delay anywhere from two to three set for three and a half whatever it is three and a half seconds I think it's two to five is the window yeah for those yeah depending on the Chinese is it which style but year was this pretty what vintage but it is a it was a very familiar feel here audible sound and that that a la Akbar hmm yeah that only sounds in one way And I jumped down the stairs to the next landing. I dove over the railing to get out of the frag zone.

And I just ate the overpressure in that stairwell, but none of the frag hit me. And I, at that point, man, I was like, dude, I need help. Like, this is something I can't. I got to find a way to come around from the top. I got to lock them down from right here while we do this. I need as many people as we can. At that point, this is pretty early.

After I got the first person out of that room on fire, got him to safety, almost died doing that. And that was a big thing I took back and, like, training in a fire rescue environment, like with the best in the country, the FDNY rescue you guys. Oh, you took them from smoke inhalation? Like learning how to work in and around a fire environment to rescue. and manipulating the fire, you know, to create windows for rescue.

And I didn't have that at training. But I took that back and not just me, but like Pat Payne, the op he was on. He also came back and was, you know, there was a big proponent to bringing those guys in and training with them. The early on, zero rounds fired on this. I was there for the initial invasion of Iraq and it was like the third place we went when we got into Baghdad. And the building started on fire. Yeah. We continued clearing up to the second deck.

I don't know. That's a floor for everybody else. Yeah. Second floor deck, whatever. I don't know how we got down off of that. I have never seen visibility disappear. By the time we got to the first floor, I could barely breathe. And I'm not alone in saying this.

Yeah. We're like everybody's rushing out, get a head count. I don't even know what the hell. we would have done had... Went any further. Well, if we had had somebody missing in there, I mean, obviously, we would have done everything we could have. Zero times did I ever put that,

or was involved in a training scenario where that was the case. You want to talk, I couldn't, it was unbelievable and the velocity that the visibility disappeared and the, I'm talking the darkest, black, as smoke, just, so I know exactly what you're talking about. Obviously, completely different situation,

but yeah, and actually, even after that, of course, that was never introduced into any training scenarios but what a problem yeah but it makes you it made me appreciate the the fire guys across this country like one they go into these so we we did the whole workups of like ladder and hose team man full boom everything SCBA the full gamut and then they started taking things away from us and now it's like to learn how to operate with what we normally would have yeah not that we don't have um you know SCBAs and stuff but it's like if what could is a tool if it's not there when you need it. Yeah. You got what you got. And you may not learn through proper training,

like, and they've really refined this through their operational experiences of trying to save life. And you end up making the fire worse potentially. But for that moment, you know, you can vent it to lift to get to, and there's good air down there. That's where like if you ever see me with a photo. I got an American Eagle on my arm. And I got a bunch of black sit. I'm not huffing paint. That's, I'm sucking the nails out of the floorboard because there's good air down there. I'll tell you that. Like, there's good air down there. And you're like, oh, some good, some good smoke. Some good air down there. And it just makes you appreciate, like, just what the service across this country looks like and how it isn't just us, you know? Yeah. And that's a big part of why I do

what I do now is like I've it's reinvigorated my sense in pride in this country seeing and meeting some of the greatest law enforcement and first responders across this country and private citizens like we do an open enrollment version of our active shooter course the the protector mindset and we tailor it to your if you don't have a rifle in your truck some people do um I'm not saying do or don't I'm saying you're going to be you're going to train with what you actually carry so if you carry in a bag guess what you're doing the whole training with, drawing from bags, carrying the bag. And we finish with, you know, realistic scenarios with people at a real school and you're giving context of like you're picking

your kid up and then there's where you get a call, you know, from your spouse that works there or something. We tailor it, man. It's very custom built to the individual. It's good. But where do we go from here? You were talking to show. You needed to figure out a way essentially you had come. Oh, yeah. We were in the stairwell, but then you had we had gone, I think, back in time a little bit, you almost got killed by the smoke. Yeah, yeah. I think some of that training, the most important part of it is,

drop and roll, man. Well, it's showing you the risk. Yeah, I didn't even think about it when we were running in there like, idiots, the risk. I went to go dig my corner and I'm like, oh, my God, I can't breathe. I can't see. Now I'm on the ground. Now I'm like, I can't get any lower.

Yeah. And I don't know where this dude's at, this American. Yeah. I know he's in here. I know that he was under one of the banquet tables hiding and they were shooting over top of them was the last information that we got. I didn't know where. So, um, and I couldn't even figure out where the front door. I just came in was. I had only gone like maybe 15 feet into the room. And luckily I did stay no more than arm's distance off the wall that I came in on. And I was

able to trace that wall back with a little bit of vertigo, uh, or whatever that would be called of like, I think so, which way's up. Yeah, yeah, vertigo. Yeah. And I can't breathe. And, um, if I keep going, I was going to die. And it was very clear to me in that moment. So I was able to find that wall and work my way back to the door and then got him on the phone directly because we were talking through the Marine Security Guard detail, the post one. And he was, because he was talking to them and relayed us and got him on the phone directly and was able at that point, which I didn't know, we vented it.

I kicked the doors in it, vented it. And then, you know, 45 seconds to a minute, like it's lifting a bit. So when I went back in with more direction of where he was at, knowing that I'm coming in, that voice you hear is me, that white light, I'll be shining my white light really low. I'm going to move to the right.

And, you know, if you can and you hear me or see me, come, come out. I was able to get him. And man, the will of survive is so powerful, man. And, like, he just looked like he was hanging on near death, you know. I think as he was. Yeah. A lot of people, though, even just from shock, like grown men. I'd kick in the doors and targeted room numbers of Americans and some I could find, some I couldn't. They'd already escaped or maybe they already were, there was one American that was actually killed. She was killed during one of the initial volleys that they did. But I didn't leave that hotel until I confirmed without a doubt that she was one of those killed. She was the last person I was looking for. Anita guitar. I just took a lot of,

I tried to bear it all. You know, I could have did more. This is my responsibility. I have the ability, this is my responsibility. And I didn't have any grace. And the biggest thing that I was missing was the hot wash my team. How long were you in country

after that occurred by yourself? Just about three and a half months. Whoa. Unravelling. On an island. by yourself in comparison to being with your unit. Yeah, I'm physically hurting. You know, like I, after that initial engagements with the shooters in the stairwell,

once I was able to get the, the Malian security forces up there, gave them like a freaking, you know. Knife hand? You gave them the knife hand? I gave them the, I gave them the short, or short range. I didn't do the long range. I do the short range. You got to save the knife. Well, they don't speak English.

And I was like, I don't speak French, dude. or whatever else. Knife hand doesn't matter. This is your country. You know? And like, damn, you got to use the knife hand for real. Yeah. That's rare error.

Yeah. But I was able to clear out the rest of that wing that once I locked the shooters into that spot. But I didn't know if they were able to escape from the top because I didn't know how they got there. I'd assume they got there coming up from that stairwell. But who knows? There was so many stairwells. and there was parts of the hotel that weren't even on the emergency exit plan, just that had been additions.

In this addition, our paths crossed only because of God, man, because I tried to move up to a stairwell that was, so I'd use the room numbers that should be matched as you move up, the levels, is with seven-story hotel. And I was like, all right, well, instead of just running up a stairwell, I'm going to find, I'm going to take the path I took, you know, already as I come back in, but then room numbers, I'm looking for rooms 5, 61, 62, and 63. That's the highest floor.

Then I'm going to work our way down. So I wanted to find the closest stairwell to those wings. I looked at the lower numbers, found that stairwell went all the way up to the fifth floor, couldn't get in because of the crash barbie on the other side, didn't have any mechanical breaching tools couldn't pry that door, pool door, couldn't pry it open, storm, a fire rated door, you know. And so that, I went down a floor to where I could get back in to the main part of the hotel, the hallway there, or one of the hallways. And then I worked my way down a wing that led to another stairwell. And that's why I ran into them. But that wing only went to fourth floor, which I didn't

realize until I took a step back and was like, they can't, they had to come from the bottom. They they're trapped at some point unless we can, unless they can get through, there was like apartment condos where, you know, whatever contractors were living in on that fourth floor of that part of the wing, or that wing of the hotel. But anyways,

I cleared, you know, I kicked in a ton of doors, but that, no longer, at that point, I'm like, let me,

because some, one person pops out of the hotel, the door in that, in that hallway and is like, like, and I'm like, hey, hey, hurry. And I'm like, and I run, I run. I'm like, hey, hey, hey, hands, you know, yelling hands at them. And then they close the door on me. And I boot that thing in. And I go in. And it was just innocent, innocent bystander didn't speak of Lickie English, don't know what country they're

from. And I was like, okay, what am I just going to leave them here? What do I do? Now we have all these Mali and security forces that have came in. I was like, let's get them out. And so I just was like, all right, I'm going to start, stay right here because there's Alco's, and I started clearing room to room, so I gather pods of people and then usher them out with more, you know, security forces that were coming in. And you couldn't tell who was who in the zoo. Like, what is going on? Like, who are you? Everybody's got guns and AKs and they're all on fire. And you're just like, what is going on? The hotel's on fire. Their guns are on fire. Fingers are on the trigger. And I was like, oh my God, I'm going to get a shot from one of them.

that's when things like how we actually became every time I re-entered the hotel I was like oh god deconfliction you know um there's a very real thing in an active attack response it's gonna happen it's others are coming you don't get to control what you're if you're off duty and you feel called to respond like you have to increase your

you know through FFI or friendly force identification and deconfliction is is huge and so we hammer that in our courses but so I get out And I pull my kid off and I had one of the Marsock teams and I was like, hey man, got to be bleeding out from the inside because I feel, I just threw up. My teeth were just loose and they felt so loose and like the taste in my mouth. This is after everything was said and done. No, no. This is after that engagement, cleared that wing.

Got you. Came out because I wanted to get on the phone. Yeah. That's the first time I called my command. Once I got outside, I had him, I called my command before I had him check. me out and said, hey, this is going on. They're like, Roger that. We know. What do you need? I said, I need my boys. I don't know if I can finish this. And they were like, okay. And so the guys back in the States are, you know, must turn up. But then the neighboring country,

there's a tier one French element that we worked with. And there was one of my old teammates embedded with them and they were on their way. So man, I was like, oh, dude, the end is coming, you know. And I didn't just want to sit like a lump on a log, but I was hurting physically and sensitive to light already because it's really dark in the inside, smoky, come out. And I was like, I don't know if it's because of that transition, but also my head hurts.

I've been bopped a lot. And I'm like, this is bad, concussion-wise. And I have them look at me. I was like, I don't, I feel nauseous. And I think maybe I'm, I don't know how I didn't get hit by frag or shot, bullets, you know. And so I just had them do a, took my shirt off. They just do a sweep. Like, look at me.

And it was good. I threw my stuff back on. It was like, Roger that. Went back in and started moving, went back to check on the, the barricade situation now. Some other things that had I'm, unfolded, but at the end of the day, they did not kill another innocent person once I was able to encounter them in the stairwell. It just didn't end that quickly. But fast forward, you know, around 1230, so around noon-ish, I knew that the French troop was coming in, flying in C-130,

and I was starting to prep like, let's link up out here, and I'm going to do a mad minute and like, let's go. They roll up, and I'm like, hey hey hey anybody speak English and they're like no I mean and I was like

hey I was so grateful they were there man I was not like I was just like thank you guys so much man but I got a lot of information I want to share

so found one that did speak English but then I was like have you seen so and so my teammate is he with you I heard he's going to be with you and man when I saw him

it was like, that's my boy. Yeah. How many terrorists? And I found one that spoke English, but. Yeah. How many terrorists did it end up being there? So that's the, I saw three at the end of it, but the report is two. I only say three because there was the, the, the stair, the top of that staircase, the,

the storage closets that were actually ended up like it finishing. But then right off of that was another room and there was another guy in fatigues that. looked exactly like them that was dead. And I had no idea where he would have came from. Interesting. So obviously people talk about the fog of war. And I only have my perspective. So I've been very public with sharing this,

not that it wasn't so low up. Like it was like a true testament of being able to be empowered to make decisions like from the experiences and the organization that I worked with or for. And that was a big one, man, because there was the seeds of doubt just were getting layered in. You're going to, you're going to, you don't have the authorities. You guys don't this.

And it was a lot of it was coming from my former job, Special Forces Command, and in Germany. And I just saw it in the Marsock dudes. I was like, they were on the phone like every five minutes. I was like, get off the phone. Like I need you here, man. Yeah, I need you to be present. And I straight up, that's where the, I was like, that's a tomorrow problem. because whoever up in Germany was like,

you're going to ruin our platform. Like people are going to, they shouldn't see you with, you know, body armor on and rifles and helmets. And I'm like, who cares? You want to see dead bodies pulled out on the news? I mean, that's a tomorrow problem. And, but the thing is, is like,

my courage and the courage of others is contagious, but the seeds of doubt, um, starts to create, um, hesitation. here and then here like physically yeah and it was that's where like i said man god bless those guys but they were not empowered by and that's no fault of their own that's a big problem with special

forces too in my in my opinion from my perspective we had a criff a commander's reactionary force that sits in germany for this very thing significantly closer to the crisis than the united states of America still far but but closer yeah and it's what they're designed to do and they got told to stand down I had one of my old teammates up there doing some admin things on his rotation rotating out to exchange this or that and he heard that I wasn't this was happening and that and he went straight to the SIF guys and was like let's go so they were musterun up like loading up and they got told to stand down and I was like what so you know, had the French not been positioned, because that was their Afghanistan, really, like Northern Mali, they were very kinetic going after all the different, you know, AQIM and El Mar Routun and all the different, and eventually ISIS, but they, you know, we advise, assist them and we could accompany, but we never did because of the geopolitical issues with the state departments in those countries. They didn't want a soft presence. So that's where, for the longest time, like the Afrikaum message,

or the greater message was that special, eventually it was like, Maulans are dealing with it. And then it was like special forces are on the assist, assisting with the evacuation. And then it wasn't until years later that something came, until I got the Distinguished Service Cross, which was three years later, which I'm extremely honored to have. It was such a, it's an honor. Well, you did this is an amazing thing, man.

Thank you. You deserve every stretch an inch of that metal. I got to be awarded it with my family there, and it was very, it was, it's very personal to me in a place that, you know, we're very secretive, even with our own families. Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that did bother me about that was I had one of the guys that were there from the State Department that saw real time, at least the first few hours of the response, come in and kind of speak on my behalf. And I don't know what it was, but what they, shared was very different than how they shared it was a little different than what I experienced. And it seemed like there was a, because of our interagency, you know, efforts and not that that's

not the case, but I wasn't waiting on anyone. And I led. And all I expected in that moment was that one moment of like to speak to that to that confidence that through my leadership it gave which they spoke to me and said this to me over and over and then years later you know things narratives were written and very publicly because it was a massive success and it from a interagency cooperation and evacuation and response at the greater you know the greater side of it but at the end of the day like the actions of a few is what allowed that to be possible and And it was just, it was kind of off-putting. I get that, but it doesn't matter.

But it is perspective, though. Like, I have my perspective, and I was like very, I didn't share this story until I shared it with Sean. No other person's narrative, State Department, whoever, changes the actions that you took then. So I get how it could be off-putting. But- But I also, like, I also, that's why I've been, you know, I was vocal with Mike about this is like, because people take things. and they take liberties with them. And there's so many things that say solo Delta Force operator saves 170 people. I think what they mean is that you were the only, not by yourself, but the only guy from CAG that was there.

I think that's what they mean. That's what being gracious that when I read that, that's what I read. Yeah. And I don't want to take away their actions at all, but I can only speak to my experiences. And that's what I've done. And it's not to the tomorrow problem thing. the empowerment thing. That was a very real thing

that we both had to deal with in that moment. And I'm like, as the leader of this ad hoc team, I'm like, look at me. I'm the captain now. No, it was a joke. But sorry.

It's a good joke. Yeah. What are you talking about? And so it's just, God bless those dudes, man. And I, you know, sadly, I don't know if it's something, this is going to unpackage

a few things, But, you know, I told you they rotate, the Marsaq Thuse, they rotate into that platform because of the mission to build rapport, continue to maintain it. They have a lot of the same guys going in every year or year and a half, whatever the rotation cycle is. But they have ground knowledge, they have the relationships and all those things. Well, after that, when I did go back home, I got really close through that trip with one of them specifically, Mario. And he was a warrior and he is. But he was struggling too. And we were both struggling in our own ways.

And, you know, he was preparing to go back over there. And I was like, man, and I'm on the phone with him talking off the ledge. And I was like, whatever you do, man, like, just tell them that you can't. Like, don't go back over there. I wouldn't right now. There's some more healing that we got to do. And, you know, I found out later that he did. And he was...

Did he go back over or did he tell them that he... No, he went back over. Okay. He went back over and he was a part of the... That situation where they killed the Special Forces guy, Logan, Melgar. Melgar. That was in the same house that I was assigned to by myself. A team of guys lived there, special forces and Steel Team Six guy.

Yeah. Excuse me. And I don't know those guys. All I know is that place is a breeding ground for idle hands and bad decisions. And I'm not trying to take anything away from or justify anything that happened or try to make. I'm not familiar with the details of it either. Either way, like from what I understand, hazing gone critically wrong. And it almost like it had to be personal.

I've heard some deep, like a train guy like in J-J-2 stuff. Well, I've heard some deeper, darker stuff, aligning with the potential reasons or motivations behind it, but I have no confirmation of it, so I'll just leave it at conjecture. At the end of the day, somebody who shouldn't have lost their life did. Absolutely. And it's tragic.

And Mario was one of the responders into the Radisson Blue Hotel attack with me, and then he went to jail. Yeah. And the award that he was given, the Silver Star, was taken from him. And it was never awarded. I was going to say, well, I've never heard of it. But was never awarded. And I don't know if it's ever going to be.

But that, that's the thing is that award, he deserves that award from his actions. Because that's what valor awards are for. Correct. And that's not me justifying anything that happened after that. No, there's two different situations. But I can speak and I did speak and I wrote character and witness statements on behalf from my perspective of his actions. And, you know, above and beyond, selfless in a grand scale of we don't. Like when I got awarded that, I was the fourth guy in the unit to be awarded to Distinguished Service Cross since 1978.

And it's not a matter of like their valorous acts are there. It's just the scrutiny of what gets put in for one of those like is extremely as real as it should be. What has to be so it maintains what it is. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so it's something that, you know, I, um, I, um, I, um, I haven't talked to him since then. Is he still in jail?

I don't know. I don't know. But I hope that him and I can reconnect and that he's not alone. I'm with you. And everything is, everything can be made. Everything will be used for our good and God's glory, for being honest. Even the suffering, the tragedies, the trials to endure. But to endure for what?

because I think endurance, to build endurance, right? If endurance doesn't connect to hope, it's misery. So it needs to connect to hope. And that's what I'm doing, man. I'm trying to bring hope through my examples, not trying to tell you what you need to do. I'm trying to live a life worth following. And just talking about your experiences is it getting easier for you

as you get reps under your belt? Yeah. But when I get to, man, feeling, to be able to feel, It's such a great gift. I know you're like, what do you mean? No, I know exactly what you mean. But some people listening might be like, hmm, these guys are just like brainwashed or they're just Stockholm or not Stockholm but shell shocked, you know.

And it's like, yeah, I mean, there's aspects of like prolonged exposure to these environments that the compartmentization is a tool, but it's a tool that's a tool that's you have to be able to unpackage safely. The bill of sale is due on that tool. It's coming. at some point in time. But talking about it has gotten easier. And every time I do, whether it's a public speaking, because I'll do public speaking for law enforcement predominantly. I've tried, I did one corporate thing.

And I was like, this is not for me. Thank you for the opportunity. Because I just felt like everything I was saying was, people were coming up to me after and were like, man, I hope you get to help you need. I'm like, thank you. Thank you. But that's not, I don't leave things with like, I need help.

It's like, no. That is interesting feedback after a public presentation. I think if people are coming up to you saying, I hope you get the help you need. I was like, I need to see the slide deck you talked to. I refined it. I refined it a bit too.

But it is like, you know, maybe that eventually will be a part of, you know, this mission at some point. But I just realized that you can't put a dollar and cents on the impact that we can have.

Yeah. And I'm better served right now speaking to the warrior class and the protectors, right? So the private citizens that hear this message is too. Because I want guys and gals to just, for one, to protect innocence, but also to truly protect the mind, the body, the spirit starts here. If I don't protect what I consume, the people I interact with,

the way that I interact with them, am I really a protector? Physically, my kids knew that I would put myself in great harm's way. I'd put my life and trade my life for theirs. Now there's times through my fatherhood where belligerently drunk. Could I have done that? Straight up abandoning them, leaving their mother. Because it wasn't an issue with y'all. It was me and her.

So indirectly traumatizing them. And indirectly to try to make her pay. I'm going to. So there's parts of that story that it's like, no, I wasn't actually doing the things that I, that I'm preaching now. But that doesn't matter because that's how I was showing up. This is who I am now. So because when I walk into the room at that Airbnb when we go back,

what does my youngest daughter do when I walk in the room? That's how I gauge. Am I providing them? Am I protecting their mind, their spirit, their heart? And that's what matters most to me is intentionality and tone. Like I don't raise my voice anymore. I told you I don't cuss anymore. I started doing that with burpees per cuss word and that was fun.

How many did you punish yourself? A lot. No, per cuss word. One. Because I know it seems like nothing, but I cussed a lot. Okay. So you're getting some reps in?

We could be mid-conversation and I'd be like, boom. And you would have no idea that this was a part of something that I was doing. And it's kind of a fun like conversational piece because then you'll see light bulbs come on and other men. And they're like, you know what I like that? I'm going to try it. And the biggest benefit that I found is I don't get as angry because those words are connected to an emotion. And once they release, it's really hard to bring them back.

So just being very intentional about protecting, providing safety and security truly, because that's what they require from us as they're a protector. But it's the mind, the heart, and the soul. You know, so I'm, I am called to that leadership role and not just by a title from God's design and what the word of God. It's the only tool that God's my life now. And I don't get this right every day, but there's grace for that. Praise God for that, man. Jesus's life on this earth was an example for me to follow.

And I was so interested in my recovery of the man. And if you want a good moral guide, he is the greatest moral guide that ever existed of how to live a selfless, fruitful life. But he'd also be a lunatic if that were the only thing because of what he said. I am the way. I am the light. I'm the truth. I'm the only way to the father is through me. And I believe that.

He's more than just a moral guide. C.S. Lus described that in mere Christianity. I mean, it just makes so much sense to me, and that's what I choose to chase, because I needed a man every day in my life that my father wasn't. And I have that now. And I don't just have that.

I have my Heavenly Father. I have Jesus to walk with and the Holy Spirit to fill my voids instead of with other things. And all the things get easier. Sobriety's gotten so much easier, but I don't travel alone. I don't stay in it. tells by myself because there's a chance because of the human the human condition and the world

culture society i got everything at my fingertips here man i keep pointing to this because this is a slave thing but it can also be such a a tool that we can use and it takes building boundaries is how you and i connected yeah you know no exactly and that's how we're able to share this message and And, you know, it's extremely important in my life to share that message, but to meet people where they are. You know, I won't ever, you know, when I, when I, we openly pray in our classes at the beginning and the end of the day. And I use that as a challenge for people. I say, hey, we're going to pray because I need it. And maybe some of you realize you need it too.

But if you aren't religious, take this moment to reflect and meditate. and be present, be where your feet are. Because what we're doing and what we're about to do is inherently very dangerous. We're going to do it safely. We're going to push each other. We're going to learn, but it's dangerous. So I'm going to ask for protection

and for wisdom and guidance and openness, open heart posture to remove the ego. And then I, in the after, in the evenings, I say, I always say this. I'm like, does anyone feel called in the ground? group to close us out in prayer. And I, and I look and I pause for a bit and I'll see, you know, occasionally I'll see one or two guys go, something like that. And I, and I don't call them out. I just say, guys, if you felt that little small still voice or the tug on your heart

and when I said that, I challenge you to go back and think about where that, where that originated and that you cannot mess this up. I'm going to close this out in prayer. But tomorrow night, man, if you feel that same tug, just raise your hand, man. Everything that you say, you cannot mess up because he knows our thoughts before we even think him. He knows our heart, our posture, the intent. And that's been one of the biggest impacts I've been able to make to truly impact our society. Do you ever see guys in your squadron praying together before operations?

The only op that I've been on that we, And this was very weird. I do see guys. Yeah, like there's guys on. Onezy, Tuesdays, but as a collective, there's only been one operation that it was very somber. I was like, why did we just do that? And then you say goodbye to your teammates because it was very, what's the word? Like complex, the infill.

And very, the likelihood of, not likely, they was certain that we're going to, be engaged just at what point during infill. So it was the first time, though, I was like saying goodbye to my teammates and it was this kind of somber feeling, you know? I don't know if I'm going to see them again, but let's do this. But yeah, I mean, I didn't even remember that

until you just said it, but you do see the onesies and twosies, and it's like, I used to be like, well, that's cool, they got their own thing that they do, and usually over meals and stuff. And, um, where you're like, hey,

so and so people I've really respected and admired and they're reading something. I'm like, what's reading? And it's the Bible and I'm like, hmm, that's not for me, but cool. And then there's guys that,

if there's an ounce of, of error in their tactical prowess, you're like, see, that's weakness. That, what you're feeding yourself as weakness. the Christianity stuff that you're talking about

and that you're doing and how you don't partake in the after hours festivities because of what? You're better than us? And so much of this, and this is the same thing I did Erica. And she grew up in a very, you know, cultish religion and as a Jehovah Witness. And

she had her own reservations with organized religion and we just didn't do it as a part of our relationship. Did you find your faith together when you did? Yeah. Like when I pushed away in 2016, I moved out when I got back from that trip. She leaned in to a faith that I hadn't really seen. And maybe she was just doing it in private and I just couldn't see something. but yeah i actually know that because she would do bible like a bible study with the kids on Thursday nights and um or like when i wasn't there on deployments and then i'd come back and they

wouldn't do it and i was like hmm didn't think any of it but as i'm pushing away from her she pushed into her faith and then she tried to share that with me and i just would be like rip that up i don't need your god like where's your god and um her faith led me to where i'm at So that's not for her, but meaning as a spiritual leader in our homes as men, that's what we're called to be. And that's not this like, do what I say. It's holding a space to lead with our example, to lead them to understand, to make sense of, to be okay with relationship. Because that's all prayer is, his relationship. He just wants communication.

That's all he wants from us is communication. And we like to overthink it and just talk to him. He wants to listen. He wants to hear, hear what you're going through. You can ask him things and things of him. And it's, you're never alone. And that's the piece that I think I've always just kind of filled the space of aloneness with moments of isolation.

And that became very unpredictable for me and for everybody I care about versus solitude. Solitude is such a powerful thing that we need. If you think about Jesus, he would do like the, the sermon on the Mount, one of the greatest teachings ever. And he would leave the disciples and say, I need some time with God, with my father. And he'd go away from them. And that's solitude. So everything he did was an example for us to live a fruitful life.

But this is a calling. And Bluebearing is a ministry. And we just do it using the gifts God's given us to teach, shooting, moving, communicating. because once again the success thing the treasures you build up is the people so at the end of our days and this is my belief you know when Jesus does come back you know one of the last things that happens is all the sin and suffering we're feeling in pain is the tears are going to be wiped from our faces and what were those tears for is the people that we could have witnessed to that are now separate living eternity separate from God and that's what matters to me is because I care about

others and and their eternities so um and i'm also very young in this in this walk in and and trying to be a good steward of any resources um because taking this full circle back to finances like it's to give man to experience things memories and then do something meaningful with yeah how do we prepare people to do the job that you did to to serve this country or to Specifically your track at that level, at that operational tempo, how do you prepare somebody for that and not have them a version of Humpty Dumpty at the M that is barely put back together again? Well, I think it's wonderful that you said that because there's been, you know, there's other people that. So borderline, if being emotionally regulated is huge. So where you anchor that emotional regulation is huge.

there is other mental illnesses like being a psychopath or a sociopath, which is a very real thing that we've experienced. We didn't have any of those on the Navy side. Yeah. That's why y'all are better. So clip that. Which by the way, that's the dumbest argument people engage in. Who's better? Steel Team Sixers.

I'm like, shut up, guys. Well, let's just, let's just do it. Like, let's do the mission. Let's go. All of us together. This is what I was telling Brent, because we were talking about it. I'm like, hey, man, there's no CQB Olympics. You know, there's no DA direct action Olympics.

This is the dumbest waste of bandwidth ever. There's no finish line with it, though, either. Like, that's why, because the problems are unlimited. That's why I love it. And while I have the breath in my lungs and the physical abilities to do it, it's extremely intoxicating, if you will. It is. But it can be taught.

And it's not like, what makes me so special? Like, the choices that you took to get to where you're at. I mean, again, well, selflessness is a big, I guess, are, you know, I don't think they're interchangeable. Some of the choices that you made to get to where you were were unique. Yeah. Some of the actions that you took were very special. And I think a lot of people would hope to include myself that pressed in that situation,

you'd have the stones to do it. I tell you what, until you're in that situation, you can hypothesize all day long. It's easy to say when it's time to do gangster shit, you're going to be ready to to do it. When that day arrives, you and I, I mean, you know the reality of it. You either, you either rise to the occasion or you don't. Yeah. So, you know, yeah, though, for sure. But the, the biggest thing I think that can help prepare you, I mean, is, is us. Like, we, being good examples for others, not, not living in living this persona, not saying this like, oh, look at me. Oh, combat this I'll never glorify this but the right men and women that are called to do it can endure

it but it is a burden and if that is you if you feel that is you there is so many positive male and female role models that we can we can develop that maybe aren't our parents that we can develop this sense of what's right and what's wrong and then put words to our values our boundaries that's man Because if that's you, if you're one of those people that has this call in their heart to protect and you don't have the values, the words to the values and boundaries, you're going to end up like I did. But it's not too late. And that's why I'm here. To share, to heal out loud, to share a testimony, there can't be a testimony without tests. And everything that I'm doing now is to be that example for them and to be there if I can to help guide them. If God places them in my life,

And some of the most profound things that happen with me and what I'm doing now is that call to service. You know, I'll get messages and I try to respond to what I can, but to be impacted by that, to see, to be there at their graduation. Not everybody, but the ones that have physically been placed in my life, man, because that's what makes, I think, this country, the people are what make this the greatest country on the planet. and that will always be the case if we remain in service to this country and others. Humanity. You know, and that's not glorifying killing. It's not glorifying war. It's a part of life.

It's a part of life since the beginning of time is you have this. I want that. You have this. I want this terrain. I'm going to take it. Or I believe this and you believe that. Exactly. Yeah.

So if, because there's so many things that you and I both did that we didn't agree upon why we were there. but okay what we're going to do? Quit? Like what is that going to do? Now they're now they're now they're now they're enduring it and I'm quitting. So so much of it is the guys to your left and right and that gets us through the next day, the next day and the next day. And but in the day like one of the things that is very upsetting is like serving as many times as I did and you did in Afghanistan for us to pull out the way we did. And I don't want to make this about politics, but the thing is, is like, campaign promises are a freaking, well, that's why ISIS became a real problem.

That's why Iran became a real significant problem when we pulled out based on campaign promises and not saying that we need a status of forces agreement. All these things. And the way we pull out of Afghanistan is just freaking and just abandoned. It's not just politically aligned. It's not like political party aligned, like this same thing. Like I tell people I've served during a time through Bush, through Obama, and then through Trump where, and I guess Biden, where at certain points, like, we got to do more under the Obama administration. Yeah. Dude, he was a savage.

But that was very unique to us, like in the, in the tier that we were in. Or unless you were a drone operator, dude. Yeah. He let the dogs of war off the chain with the drones. But then at the same point, going after dismantle the caliphate with ISIS, maybe we got both hands were tied before and then Trump allowed us to untie one. So now we're just throwing hooks and jabs with one hand. And it's just like, man, the greatest power that we have is the ability to leverage our military to deter war. So I think there's been so many use cases over these years of like,

I'm not gonna waste my life on the noise, man. And what can I influence? What can I should or be aware of? And what can I control? Really, control is my actions and reactions. We talked about earlier, these three spheres. And if I've been called to serve in these capacities, and if that's you as a young man or woman,

know that it comes with great burden and great costs. And what that cost looks like is based on how much you've prepared your whole being for things that aren't normal. Do you think, and I'll ask this through the lens of same with law enforcement too. It's not, they have this first responders, respond to car accidents like sometimes I would say an even harder job. At least we could clock in and clock out. I mean they I don't, I'm not reminded of the horrendous wrecks or loss of life when I'm driving home. You know what I mean? Because these officers are serving

in their communities. Yeah. I would agree with you. The cost can be tremendous. But do you think you can be a better version of yourself as a human because of it. Oftentimes it's only phrased through the lens of the broken toy narrative. If you go this path, you're going to be broken. Or that we're talking about all these things of like, oh, we're just these damaged, worry your operators and just, well, it was me. I feel like I am a substantially better version of myself because of my experiences. Were they all great? No, the vast majority of them were not great. But what I can do with those experiences or work through them and do with them after. afterwards, doesn't mean they have those experiences don't have to define me and they can make

me a better version of a human being. Absolutely. I mean, that's, that's the, that's the, that's the secret. Like, there is, there is things that you will be faced and have to do that are going to impact you. It's what we do. Do we let it define the tsunami thing? Like, do we let it define us, destroy us or improve us? And in failure, if you don't, if you're not expecting failure, you're naive. Because failure is what builds us to improve. And you know this. And that's a big part of why you wrote that book that I can tell from my observation.

I just want to have a positive impact, man, and help people. All I want to do the rest of my life is have a positive impact. Yeah. And that's what you're doing with it. So in learning lessons and sharing those, because knowledge, man. Knowledge is one of the most powerful things that we can share with each other. but it's also, oh, you know, I don't teach the millions this because it's a secret. And I'm like, go read a Ranger handbook.

I'm still waiting to learn the secret CQB, by the way. Yeah, I know. I'm like, it's squad attack. If you think about it, like, uh, like, oh, you guys use a different angle measurement. Like, no, angles are angles, man. I mean, I also don't think it's infinite. Maybe infinite number of scenarios, but the angles and the math and what you've largely once you start to hammer those, man, it's like, okay, this is just a new problem.

Yeah. That goes back to the problem solving piece, but it's like a lot of people think that they're, you know, you get the badge holder or the badge protecting or whatever kind of mindset of like knowledge is mine, man. And this is prevalent everywhere. I don't think it's just in the tactical, you know, environments. I think it's like life. Knowledge is power. So they're like, I'm not going to share all my knowledge because then I'll be replaced. It's not a matter of if it's just when you will be replaced.

there is a, there is a shelf life on these tactical environments. I can't tell you what it is. It's preparation. It's, you know, how much, what's your coping mechanisms, all the things? How do you interact? How do you deal with fear? How do you deal with pain? And how do you recover from those things and failure?

And that's, the shelf life is, it's coming though. But that, but it's just, it's a part of your life or a part of it. And what you're doing and what I'm doing and so many others. others is showing others that we can be successful outside of what we've been indoctrinated to believe is the pinnacle of our lives. And it's not. It was a part of it. And extremely proud to have, it's the hardest place to get to stay at and to leave, but it was

a job. It was a part of my life. And I'm remorseful for the things that I did that didn't honor that place or my family or God. And I'm doing something with it. And I think that's the part that's inspirational. because motivation is fleeting and it's very tempered man comes in and out yeah exactly and so how do you discipline you know that but inspiration is a is a thing that i think we can be using being a good steward

of the ability to influence as we build and be in are challenged with these new endeavors you know and we'll make mistakes as we have and we'll learn and we'll grow we'll share them um appropriately and you know, that's the point is the knowledge piece is powerful if you share it. It's the most selfish thing if you don't. I agree. If you were the CAG king for a day, what one thing, I'm not saying there's only one thing that would need to be changed, but has spending as much time as you did there, what would you change, if anything?

I think the transition piece, which is a part of what I talked about in the beginning. Like, it's a matter of time. And that's the thing is like, nobody. leaves that place that was an operator that either didn't retire or that retired that's how they leave got told to leave or they couldn't physically do the job anymore because of injuries or performance. So it's something that there's nothing I would change about the culture of that. But the transition piece, I think, which I believe they are doing, you know, another thing that I know has changed as a result of me being very, well, couldn't hide from it.

Was that when a crisis response happens, like there has to be, there was all these like crisis management teams flying in from agency X, Y, and Z and triage and people that weren't even in the hotel, but they were just impacted by that mission or by that situation, psychs and docs and all that. And I'm over in the corner coloring. I'm like, oh, Okay. I'm good. And I think that's something that, because I was very open about, like, hey, man, I needed something to sink my teeth into. Like, I'm unraveling. That helped kind of bring in some support there towards the very end as I'm coming home. But a lot of the damage had already been done. And the way I was showing up over there kind of lawlessness. I never used to drink and drive. I did there and I took that home. I was just so angry. I couldn't even look at the continent of Africa without getting triggered.

I couldn't look at very dark, complexed black people without getting triggered. And it was, I needed to heal, man. And I needed to be rescued from myself. And I think as leaders, like we have to see that is as exceptional of human beings that can work in one place, that like that organization,

And I'm sure with the organization, too, it's like we have to create these protocols, you know. And I saw that kind of happening the last couple years I was there because kind of like the TBI protocol. Like it became a thing. Yeah. Like it should be a thing. You got to sit out. Like you just got bopped. You can't pass the PT, the vestibular and all that.

You got to sit out until you can get a, like a concussion protocol. like that became a real thing but this is all kind of post 2016 so i think that has changed in the sense of like these crisis response teams that aren't the operators the support you know the the chaplains the the medical the the psychological um professionals kind of coming in and I think the best thing that could have happened to me and I don't like I said I don't want to play God and try to change anything was to get out of that country. And I wouldn't have volunteered to do it. I needed a leader to tell me, like, hey, we need you to go over here. We're going to switch you out with this and we need you to work on this over here. And I'm like, okay, Roger that. So, and this isn't

like, I'm a victim. It's, it's just, we didn't, we didn't know, we didn't know neither. And it's, and it was, it wasn't a mission. It wasn't a mission that we planned for. It's a, it's a mission that we trained for in a certain way. And there's aspects that I like the active attack, you know, side of it that we weren't necessarily trained for, but applied the techniques that we do with hostage rescue. And, you know, I think that's one thing coupled with the transition piece of knowing that there is a point of, it's time to hang it up. And let's help you sink something, sink your teeth into something, the next thing. Yeah. Are you more proud of the man you are now or the man you were and the things you were able to accomplish in the military?

The man I am now. Like by a lot. I hope people hear that because you served at the absolute highest level for a really long time and accomplished, I would say, just about everything that anybody looking for a high level career in the military would want to do. And you're more proud of the things you've done and have become afterwards. people have to hear that because they get lost and everything is in who they were and what they did. Or what they're trying to do.

Yeah. And I think that you can do those things and like when I'm most, thank you for saying that. I don't want to gloss over that. That means a lot. I am most proud of being the husband to my wife

and the father to my children. And if God blesses us with grandchildren, I'm so excited about that because I didn't have that. And it's not an excuse. I'm doing something about it. And being a positive male role model as I walk through the streets, as I'm given opportunities to impact our youth, like that's how we change our society.

It's not going to be you and I that make the change. It's going to be them and their children. It's definitely not going to be the government. I've landed on the top. is not going to, it's not going to cascade top down. It has to be bottom up. It's through the things you're talking about though. It is generational and it's on a timeline.

I don't think the trains are going to come off the track for our country. It might rattle a little bit on the track, but I think it's supposed to actually. Maybe it needs to reinvest in what it is you're talking about. The awakenings, the revivals, like post-Charlie Kirk assassination, like that was a revival. And now it's got crickets. but my point is that that's a big part of why Mike Ritland turned his life back to Christ.

Which was recent, right? Ish? Yeah. No, he shared that with me on the podcast real time and I was just like blown away. And the conversation, I was just like, because I thought he was an atheist. And God was working me over too because I was apprehensive to do it, not because I don't, I just, I scrutinized everything that I do now through. this lens through this new perspective solid footing and purpose am on solid footing

and if you're not a man of faith mentally am i physically on solid footing mentally you know am i on solid footing and then do i have a purpose for what it is i'm going to do and if because the purpose alone can be very blinding passion very blinding so if i can't be if i can't be if i can't answer yes to both of those in any given scenario. Like I don't, I just don't do it. And it's not like, not ever, it's just not yet, not right now. So that's where, but you do have to take risk too. And like, I just don't want to grab mics to grab mics, man.

But it's part of that kind of call of like being that quiet professional. So doing it with integrity, with honor, not trying to. And there's some people that won't see anything other than the title of Delta Force operator, Kyle Morgan, didn't he get fired, didn't this and that? Is that how you'd like me to title the video? Michael, write that down. Yeah, write that down. That's a really long YouTube title.

I think it cuts it off. Let's paraphrase that. Yeah. But my point is that there's people that I'm given the gifts, given this opportunity that I get to do, not have to. Yeah. Checking in. Am I on solid footing? Do I have a purpose?

I've regained and that's where there's like it's a daily thing throughout the day. And when I can't answer those questions, I don't just say no right away. I seek wisdom vertically and I express outwardly to the people, to the few. Chris Fed is a really close friend of mine and really post any military service. We did a jump course together. I didn't know that, but did a, um, uh, did a, horny gorilla together. And 10 years later, I got to meet him again for the first time. But he's a really close friend of mine, and I'm really proud of him and what he's doing. And there's several

others, but we only need a few that we can, you know, seek counsel from and be honest with, because you're only going to get what you give. And if you want them to tell you that that's the right answer, then you're going to get the right answer that you've already made up in your mind. So being vulnerable and capable, though. Because, vulnerability as a man is one of the most another powerful thing that we can do or display, but it can also be used to hurt you if you don't turn it into an asset, a strength. And that's where capability comes. So with the skills of my hand and the integrity of my heart, regardless of violating my own integrity, what did that do? It didn't mean I didn't have integrity. It

mean I damaged it. I inflicted injury morally over and over. And a lot of it was personally, like in my personal decision making and the lack of care for my own well-being, you know, I wasn't worth it, you know, and it wasn't worth it, you know, and it goes back to identity. But getting yourself outside of yourself, I think, is the challenge for each and every one of us daily.

And sometimes that's just how we start our day, you know, which is kind of this kind of oxymoron. Maybe that's the wrong way to put it, but, We want to, before we be proactive versus reactive with how we start our days, but a lot of it is looking inward. And then, but reading too, though, like journaling and reading is extremely important. And then visualization. You know, all those things are extremely important to be proactive.

But, you know, if you think about, for me, it started with one thing. I'm going to do one thing to get myself outside of myself today. And some of that is in the beginning was I'm not going to go over. over here. Because over here, I did a bad, I did a lot of bad things, so I'm just going to stay away from there. People, places and things got to change. I have to literally change my actions and then work my way through feelings and thoughts, this loop that gets disrupted. But it could just be, you know, not responding. You see something like, I want to punch this dude in the face. But I don't. Why? Am I weak? Do I not?

have the ability to do it it's the space through instinct and action and that think that takes very intentional practice um i think the more capable you are the more space you can provide yourself to absolutely a lot of times people jump into that action because they're scared or they're untested or they feel like they're unproven yeah they don't have the reps once you understand your capability and you keep pressing it and constantly innovating and evolving and growing with it. I mean, the people I know who are the most capable of violence are the ones who at least look for it. That's not like Warrior in the Garden versus Gardner in the war. You know, it's, it's, blessed all the peacemakers, man. And it's, um, I'm capable of extreme violence and

I choose to live a peaceful life. But in order to be capable to say that, I have to practice these skills. Yeah. You know, so we're going to do jiu-jitsu tomorrow and have you ball me up. I don't know, man. I feel like you're going to be a handful. Yeah, but endurance is lacking right now. So here's the beauty, though. We focus on your daughter.

Yeah. Wait till you see my wife's eyes light up. Oh, I'm so excited about that. She, it's such a, again, it's a tool. It's a capability. She'll do women's self-defense courses. She doesn't call them that. The gym calls them that.

She would be the first person to tell you that in a two-hour seminar, if you apply the term women's self-defense, that you're not being honest you're selling something you don't have in that amount of time totally yeah she starts with how you present yourself how you walk how you carry yourself don't don't look as if you were an easy victim your posture you're gay and in the way that your hand swing and things like that it's it's such an incredible tool and but literally the people i know who capable of the most violence are not the ones who are out there looking to engage in it because i think they have that capability and they understand well they know the consequences do you and the cost

violence. I mean, yeah, it's, I enjoy peace. Yeah, me too. Very much. It's, I mean, like I said, I'm not going to rob myself of that gift. Yeah. Of peace, because I could do it very easily. In fact, that's the daily, the daily struggle is ego, you know, and. For a soul. Yeah, for every one of us. And, you know, but intentionality is, is so important. Get yourself outside of yourself daily. The reason that we don't call the our training course, the active shooter response training certification, it's the protector mindset course because I do believe that in a three-day experience with us, you can take that with you, just like to point with your wife and how she's kind of like jaded about calling that a women's self-defense course in any two-hour given time.

It's the same way with me with three days. It's still like giving you specific tangible things that you can take and work on. We don't let you leave until you come up with, because I ask you, you'll say like, well, I just want to, I want to dry fire more. I'm like, well, what does that mean, first of all?

Like, specifically, what do you mean? Like, what aspect of dry firing? Because we all need to dry fire ourselves a little bit more every day. Like, head to toe, you know? And, and then if they, if they say, like, man, I just need to, I need to train on CQB more. I'm like, yep, so do I. We all do.

you got to be more specific or else you're just you're going to it's cost a lot to train with us but you will get more than your money's worth in that any given amount of time and that's taking value or two different things yeah and it's okay to have a high price when you have an exceptional value yeah and and building community because everybody that walks out of there like i want you to go home and look at things differently okay what that's some of the tangible things that you can work on reading doors hands all those things processing the environments and getting more creative with how and what you're specifically training on, um,

and a lot of things that get glossed over because people are like, oh, we just master the basics. I'm like, yeah, yeah, but mastery of the basics is there's no finish line. Like I can become very good with my weapons handling,

but give me a different gun. How good am I with that? So there's a, there's like so many things that we can even add to our weapons manipulations to mastering the basics and problem solving, man. Like it's how we view the problem we get to versus we have to. And because when bullets are flying, man, you're not going to rise to that occasion.

You're going to, you're going to fall back to what you, what you've done. Level of your training. Yeah. What do you want to, what do you want to leave people with? We've been out for almost three and a half hours. Have we? Yeah. This has been a good conversation.

Yeah. And then I have a gift for you. Oh. So I do want to say, you'll never guess what it is. I, close my eyes. Um. the mission that I'm on with Frontline Healing Foundation. So people that don't know, I've mentioned Thomas Spooner a couple times in this conversation,

but he and Josh and Lisa Lannon started Warriors Heart, which is a residential treatment facility based out of Bandera, Texas. There's one in Virginia, 42-day treatment unlike anything. I've never went through the treatment myself, but I've witnessed aspects of it. I've participated in aspects of it. I've taken tours with people to show them the healing warriors, healing wars. So they started a nonprofit side where it's heart foundation. And at a certain point, they decided to rebrand that to frontline healing foundation.

And then also open it up because of optics. Like it's not, it wasn't a function to pad the for-profit side of a residential treatment center for chemical dependencies, post-traumatic stress, TB. that's where the combatives or the jihitsu thing they do the clients that's what they call them you go through treatment if you need detox you do the detox part and then you start your treatment but the first thing that you experience when you get there is a sign in like a living room setting as you're checking in strung out wherever you are you're checking in and it says welcome home everybody that interacts with you says welcome home shakes your hand so it's unlike anything i've ever experienced there's a culture to successfully completing that treatment, which is unlike anything I've ever versus doing your time. 28 days, man, that's all I've got to do. I'm in rehab. You know, it's very different. But there is a big, there's a void financially.

And it's either through VA claims that get held up or denied through military, active or veteran. Law enforcement, private health care only pays a portion of their treatment costs or they don't have insurance. first responders. So it's a broad net that I don't know of another nonprofit that casts a net, but the primary focus being chemical dependency and postumatic stress, TBI, and so on. So they do MERT there. They'll do art, wood shop stuff. They'll do metal work.

Man, it's, and then the work. You've got to do the work. And it's beautiful, man. And I've been on a part of the frontline healing foundation, board of directors for almost two years. And it's volunteer. I don't get paid to do it. And it started with how do I give back to that organization.

And I did a fundraiser for my birthday and was able to donate what was the average cost, which was of what they would pay out in a hardship, which was like $10,300. And I was able to do it because of our following. And God's working, you know, influence, my ability to influence. and then a private donor paid the rest of it that we didn't do on social media. But I'm invested, is what I mean, and then our donations. But I got an opportunity to be on the board, and I've been serving on the board.

And one of the hardest things I've got to do is read these hardships. So you submit, you need help. Hardest thing to do, say, I need help. You reach some sort of roadblock financially. You can submit a general hardship application through frontlinehealingFoundation.org. and you fill out as much as you want to fill out, but it matters because we have to read on the board. We read all the narratives.

I look at their D-214s. I look at any of their law enforcement post stuff or any of their credentials to make sure that they are, say who they say they are, and their bank statements to make sure that they actually are in a financial hardship. We have to scrutinize every dollar that we receive and push out. But one of the hardest things to do,

just to kind of summarize this is to say no due to lack of funds. So I could read these hardships and I'm like, man, I wish we could help this guy. And we'll try to find a way, even though we don't have lack of funds or we have a lack of funds. But last year, the numbers don't lie. We were able to pay $700,000, to give $700,000 dollars away to the service members, to the law enforcement, to the first responders, to get this life-saving treatment. Some of us need rescuing from ourselves. And I don't want there to be a financial barrier if we can do anything about it. And we can. We're doing it on a small scale.

But we received $2.5 million in hardships last year and paid $700. So there is. There's a need. There's a need. And I thought in the beginning of working on the board that it was like the awareness that it was something that the service members, the warriors could apply for. It's not. We got to keep promoting that.

But we need to find the people that can. financially donate and it's not these tactical sponsors man they're getting hit up left and right and a lot of what they donate comes out of their marketing yeah so it's one of those investments that it's on people for a lot for their lives man and i'm not saying that we don't have industry partners that that help we do in a big way um but we i have to find a part of my my challenge of being on the board is to um is to create more opportunities more awareness of this organization um and it's outside of Blue Bering, it's my mission. So that's Frontline Healing Foundation.

Oh, yeah. This is for you. You get to leave for the cards, too. I'll put these back in here for you as you, don't cut yourself, all right? Oh, dude. Are you familiar with MKC stuff? No.

Montana? Yeah, actually, yep. The battle goat. I figured it would be, you're kind of the goat. You know what I mean? You're the Cag goat. Whatever. Sharpened by loot, quality control by Mac.

Packaged by coal. Thank you, gentlemen. I like the packaging. Yeah, awesome. 550 cord. A little bit of cordage there. Yep, a little sticker. Okay, see.

This will go good with the kit. Packaging matters. It really does. The unboxing experience, if you will, matters. What is it? The AMSR. Oh, A-S-M-R. Somebody younger, answer that.

I know the acronym. I don't know what it means. Don't cut yourself. That is pretty. Yep. It's got the, uh, podcast logo, lasers on the other side. There you go.

Love it. Thank you. Thank you very much. And Montana Knife Company, thank you so much. This is beautiful. For sure. It's a good blade. Well, thank you for making the trip out, man. And honestly, thank you for bearing the burden of the service that you did, for doing the things that you did. It's hard to describe. It's, I'm, I can only say that I have an understanding of it because I was proximal to that type of stuff for a little bit. But dude, you took the limited amount of shit that I did and put it into a different sporting event. You know one thing you're really good at, which is, I think a superpower, man, is, is I understand everything you're saying.

But I'm not proud of your service, man. I'm not saying I'm not proud of my service. But the self, there's a bit of self-deprived. There's also a bit of honesty in there as well. Yes, of course. I mean, I try to be honest about what I did and I didn't do. I spent the minimum amount of time at Development Group, not because I didn't want to stay there longer. I got hurt.

And the leadership, specifically, the E9 at the time was being a dick about it. So we had a meeting in his office and I used some words that would have caused me to do burpees. And in a rock paper rank organization, that doesn't work. Paper rock rank. That's the best game ever. Yeah. No, my point is, is that right back at you, man. Like, I do appreciate everything you just said.

It's not lost on me. It's why I'm doing what I'm doing using and doing something with that service. But this is how I continue to serve, though. Yeah. And I think we remind each other in these conversations and anyone listening, like, this isn't about us or our ego. And that's very clear with how you carry yourself. And I love that, man. And I wish there was, well, I don't wish anything.

I'm keeping myself anchored in that humility every day as well. Yeah, it's important, man. I legitimately want the best for everybody. I want people to accomplish what it is that their goals are. I want them to live in a peaceful and prosperous world. And I know that the reality is of what it takes to do that. And I'm glad that there's people who are willing to go do the things that are necessary to allow that space for others. Amen.

Yeah, man. Well, thank you for letting me spend the time with you. Of course. And tomorrow's going to be awesome too. Today's just the first day. Absolutely. Hell, yeah.