Close All Tabs - Bonus: A Big Win for the Internet Archive

Episode Date: July 28, 2025

Who decides what is and isn’t a library? The Internet Archive now has federal depository status, joining a network of over 1,100 libraries that archive government documents and make them accessible to the public — even as ongoing legal challenges pose an existential threat to the organization. Some of the organization’s critics even argue that the Internet Archive is not a library at all.  In this special update to our deep dive on the Internet Archive, we get into what this designation really means. Morgan talks to Internet Archive founder Brewster Kahle about what federal depository libraries do, whether this affects the Internet Archive’s copyright lawsuit, and why preserving information is more important than ever.  Guests:  Brewster Kahle, founder and digital librarian of The Internet Archive Further reading/listening:  SF-Based Internet Archive Is Now a Federal Depository Library. What Does That Mean? — Morgan Sung, KQED What Happens if the Internet Archive Goes Dark? — Close All Tabs Read the transcript here Want to give us feedback on the series? Shoot us an email at [e-mail] You can also follow us on Instagram Credits: This episode was reported and hosted by Morgan Sung. Our Producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts, and also helps edit the show. Sound design by Chris Egusa. Original music, including our theme song, by Chris Egusa. Additional music from APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager. Ethan Toven-Lindsay is our Editor in Chief. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Support for a Key QBD podcast comes from Xfinity. Thanks to the Xfinity five-year price guarantee, your guaranteed five years of reliable Wi-Fi with our best equipment, no annual contracts, and no fees. Plus, get online in minutes with same-day Wi-Fi. Lock in your price and unlock the possibilities. Xfinity, imagine that. Restrictions apply, select plans only.

Ugh, you also having trouble with scammers trying to poke holes in your dam? We need a phone plan that stops these pensions. at the perimeter. That's why I switched to Google File Wireless, a wireless plan built with industry-leading security. Google AI helps block pesky scammers so my info stays secure, and best of all, unlimited plans start at just $35 a month. Whatever you do, your sake with Google. Explore Google File Wireless Plans today. Plus taxes and government fees. Block spam known to Google may not detect all spam calls. From KQED. Don't worry, you're still in the right podcast, even though it's not Wednesday. This is, in fact, close all tabs.

And we're here with a very special bonus episode. This is an update on the Internet Archive, which, if you scroll way, way back, we talked about in one of the first episodes of this show. Back in March, we went on a deep dive to try to answer this question. What happens if the Internet Archive goes dark? The Internet Archive faces a copyright lawsuit that threatens to shut it down. In a previous lawsuit, publishers argued that the Internet Archive isn't a library. But, as of last week, thanks to a designation.

from California Senator Alex Padilla, the Internet Archive is now a federal depository library. We'll get into what that means. But what counts as a library online? Who decides what is and isn't a library? Let's talk about what a federal depository library does, because when I reported on this for KQED, a lot of people on Instagram seem to be confused.

Some thought that by becoming a federal depository library, the Internet Archive would suddenly be under the control of the government. That is not at all the case. So to clear things up, I talked to the Internet Archives founder, Brewster Kale, about what this designation really means. First question. What is a federal depository library? In the United States, the federal depository library program is a program administered by the government printing office to ensure that all Americans have public access to government information. In the old days, used to mean that they would get the publications from the government printing office,

which are the works of government. And then those would go to a large number of physical libraries that would be accessible to people. Then as things changed to CDs and DVDs, microfilm and microfiche, then all of these libraries adapted and upgraded to these new formats. And now more and more, the materials are coming in digitally. So these are then preserved on thousands of locations around the United States so that they're close at hand to people and then served by librarians to help people find the right information within it. The government printing office established the Federal Library Depository Program in 1813, and now there are over 1,000 libraries in this network.

The idea is to keep public government documents accessible. These can include books, maps, environmental reports, health studies, congressional records, newspapers. You get the idea. It does not mean the government has a say in what participating libraries do. It just means that libraries get to hold this information and share it. And it's millions and millions of pages. It usually takes up maybe a whole floor of public libraries to go and store and make this available. And it's been available in things like microfiche and microfilm.

which are great that they're able to be copied so easily, but they're not easy to access. And the idea of bringing all these materials digital and making them available digitally so that they can be woven into Wikipedia, they can be easily available in the middle of the night. You don't have to go and travel to your local library to be able to get to it,

to go and put copies of these digital materials in those other federal depository libraries. Libraries don't always have the resources to sift through all these documents, digitize them, and host them online. Since they're part of this program now, the Internet Archive can help the other libraries with all of that, which they've already been doing anyway. This designation just means it's more convenient to work with those member libraries. This step is an evolution of this program of Democracy's Library,

of taking all of the works of democracies and making them permanently available online. By being part of the program itself, it just gets us closer to the source of where the materials are coming from so that it's more reliably delivered to the Internet Archive to then be made available to the patrons of the Internet Archive or partner libraries that want to get things from us. The whole Internet ecosystem gets stronger as digital learners get more access to general materials, but now closer access into the government materials. This seems like the first truly digital library to be included in the federal depository program. Do you think this signals a change in the way the government is thinking about libraries? I think all libraries are going digital. But because the Internet Archive was founded in 1996 as sort of part of the whole digital wave, the Internet Archive is largely available digitally.

And so I think it's just a normal evolution. of libraries, we're just only 30 years old, so are really born during the digital era. When it comes to copyright lawsuits, it's unclear whether being part of this program will bolster the Internet Archives defense. But Brewster said this designation doesn't change anything about how the Internet Archive operates. Because the United States government doesn't copyright these documents, they can be digitized, archived, and shared among member libraries without any issues. And so they can be free-flowing. and be woven into the fabric of our knowledge ecosystem if they're in digital form.

So as we bring these things digital, other libraries can host on it, other services can be built on it, and they can be freely available, where often these things are only available through very expensive commercial products. So this kind of change of adapting to the digital era, it's just a natural step that we libraries are all going through. So what about the critics who say that the Internet Archive isn't a library and doesn't have the right to digitize archive and share information, copyrighted or not? Here's what Brewster said. The Internet Archive has always lived by the ethics and the role of a library in our society. So I don't know that this program is going to particularly change anybody's perceptions.

but I think it is just fulfilling the library role that we've always held. So still a library. We're ending close I thought. Internet Archive is a library that does interlibrary loan and physical access and digital access, just like all the other libraries out there, towards the sort of fantasticness of the vastness of what's going on online in October. the Internet Archive will hit a milestone of one trillion web pages. And that one trillion will, is not just a testament to what libraries are able to do,

but actually the sharing that people and governments have to try to create an educated populace and share knowledge widely. And I think we should be celebrating what it is that's going on in the broader Internet towards sharing and creating materials that we're all. learning from. And we're very happy to be part of the federal depository library program. Thanks so much for joining us, Brewster. Thank you, Morgan. That's our update. We'll be back Wednesday. Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. Our producer is Maya Kweba. Chris Aguosa is our senior editor. Jen Cheehan is KQED's director of podcasts

and helps out of the show. Original music, including our theme song, by Chris Agusa. Sound designed by Chris Agusa. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Mahasanad, Katie Springer is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Tovin Lindsay is our editor-in-chief. Support for this program comes from Be Wrong Who and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. If you have feedback or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at close all tabs at kQED.org. Follow us on Instagram at close all tabs pod or drop it on Discord.

We're in the close all tabs channel at discord.g.g slash KQED. And if you're enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. Thanks for listening. Support for a KQBD podcast comes from Xfinity. Thanks to the Xfinity five-year price guarantee, your guaranteed five years of reliable Wi-Fi with our best equipment, no annual contracts, and no fees. Plus, get online in minutes with same-day Wi-Fi. Lock in your price and unlock the possibilities. Xfinity, imagine that. Restrictions apply. Select plans only.

Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals, because we're built for what you're building. Fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank. Relax and let Ralph's Delivery handle your grocery shopping this week. We start with only the freshest items, then review your list and carefully choose each one. Then we pack it all up and deliver it in as little as 30 minutes so you can feel confident it's what you ordered. Fresh groceries, your way with Ralph's delivery and pickup. And right now, enjoy free delivery on orders over $50.

Fresh for everyone.