Close All Tabs - Save or Scroll: Manosphere Mornings, Luigi Sex Tape Rumors, and the Art of the Hard Launch

Episode Date: April 9, 2025

We can’t cover every wild post from every corner of the internet — and not everything online warrants a full multi-tab journey. That’s where Save or Scroll comes in: our series where we team up with a guest for a rapid-fire roundup.  In this episode, Morgan is joined by ICYMI co-host Candice Lim to dig into the stories they haven’t been able to stop thinking about. From the viral Hailey Bieber 7-part series to alpha bro “get ready with me” videos, Reddit’s restrictions on Luigi Mangione discourse, and more — they’ve got plenty to scroll through.  At the end of each segment, they’ll decide: is the post just for the group chat, or should we save it for a future episode? Guest: Candice Lim, Co-Host of ICYMI from Slate Further reading: Should I Be Taking Notes From This Viral Alpha Male Morning Routine? - Annabel Iwegbue, Cosmopolitan  Hailey Bieber is seeking legal action against people who slate her - Claudia Cox, The Tab  Section 230 May Finally Get Changed as Lawmakers Prep New Bill - Paris Martineau, The Information  Luigi Mangione Sex Tapes Report Sends Internet into Meltdown - Marni Rose McFall, Newsweek Reddit Is Restricting Luigi Mangione Discourse—but It's Even Weirder Than That - Nitish Pahwa, Slate How Blueprint Founder Bryan Johnson Sought Control Via Confidentiality Agreements - Kirsten Grind, The New York Times Trinity Rodman, Ben Shelton and how high-profile relationships affect soccer careers - Tim Spires, The Athletic  Read the transcript here Want to give us feedback on the series? Shoot us an email at [e-mail] You can also follow us on Instagram Credits: This episode was reported and hosted by Morgan Sung. Our Producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Additional editing by Jen Chien. Sound design by Maya Cueva. Original music by Chris Egusa, with additional music from APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard and Chris Egusa. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager. Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Support for a Key QBD podcast comes from Xfinity. Thanks to the Xfinity five-year price guarantee, your guaranteed five years of reliable Wi-Fi with our best equipment, no annual contracts, and no fees. Plus, get online in minutes with same-day Wi-Fi. Lock in your price and unlock the possibilities. Xfinity, imagine that. Restrictions apply, select plans only.

Ugh, you also having trouble with scammers trying to poke holes in your dam? We need a phone plan that stops these pensions. at the perimeter. That's why I switched to Google File Wireless, a wireless plan built with industry-leading security. Google AI helps block Pesky Scambers, so my info stays secure, and best of all unlimited plans start at just $35 a month. Whatever you do, your sake with Google. Explore Google File Wireless plans today. Plus taxes and government fees. Block spam known to Google may not detect all spam calls. From KQED. Hey guys, this is Close All Tabs. I'm Morgan Sung, tech journalists, and your chronically online friends,

here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Except today, we aren't opening any tabs. We're doing something a little different. Sometimes while scrolling, I come across a truly wild post, but spending an entire episode talking about it just doesn't work out. Sometimes we don't have enough time to cover it because we have so many other stories to cover. Sometimes I do a little digging and it turns out that the lore behind it just isn't compelling enough to justify a deep dive. Sometimes there's no lore at all. A lot of things online aren't always a multi-tab journey. It can just be juicy gossip for the group chat. So today, we have Candace Lim joining us. Candice is also a journalist who covers the internet

and is the co-host of I-CyMI in case you missed it from sleep. Candice and I have been internet friends and real-life friends for a while and she is one of my favorite people to gossip about the internet with. Hello, Morgan. So, Candice, we have been internet friends for a while, but the first time we hung out in person, we couldn't stop yapping. And because we can't resist the content in minds, why not turn hanging out into content? Absolutely. Candice and I are here to play a game called Save or Scroll. Save as in when you see a post on TikTok or Instagram or X and you bookmark it, add it to your saved folders, or drop the link in Notes app because you use. You use a post on TikTok or Instagram or X and you bookmark it. know you're going to want to talk about it later. Scroll, as in you keep scrolling. So we each

have a handful of posts that we can't stop thinking about, and we're going to take turns and see if they're just for the group chat, or if they're actually worth a deep dive. If we decide to scroll, it means we've talked about it, we're moving on. If we decide to save, it means that we may hold on to the idea for a future episode. Okay, ready, Candace? Yes. I'll go first. So today, I come to you with a truly perplexing trend. This is what I'm calling the Alpha Male Get Ready with me videos. Are you familiar with these? I actually have not seen these until you brought them to my attention.

So this all starts with this fitness influencer who goes by Ashton Hall official on Instagram, and he's this like mega jack dude who posts videos of his super elaborate morning routines. So it starts with him getting up at 3.52 a.m. and he pours his first glass of Saratoga Springwater. Yeah. Then he takes it to the balcony and starts doing push-ups. And then at like 4.40 a.m., he records himself journaling. But then he opens his notebook to the first page.

And it's clearly never been used before. Yeah. At 5.46 a.m., he dumps ice into this giant glass bowl and pours more Saratoga spring water and, like, dunks his face in it. Then he goes to the gym, showers and gets dressed. And at 9 a.m., this faceless pair of women's hands brings him another bowl of ice water for him to dunk his basin again. Thank you. Was there anything that really stood out about this routine for you? So I unfortunately saw this and then I've been seeing other videos, which are basically, let's call them just Manosphere Day in the Lives.

And a lot of things I'm seeing in common, number one, all of them wear mouth tape, which they like wear during sleep, they peel it off. And honestly, he should keep. keep it on the whole day. Second, seeing a lot of Bibles. I'm seeing a lot of people opening Bibles, not really reading them. Interesting. And third, all of them dunk their face in ice water, which I really do not understand. Something that also stood out to me was when he makes a show of getting on his computer, I'm being on a meeting, and everyone's like clowning on him for this one part because it sounds so fake business bro. So looking at it, bro, we got to go ahead and get at least 10,000. At least 10,000.

10,000 of what? Yeah. Dollars, views. What I also find very funny is that all of these guys, they usually start their day way too early. I'm thinking 352 a.m. 4 a.m. I know exactly where this came from. It's because Mark Wahlberg once said that he gets up at like 4 a.m.

to do his workout. I'm just saying you guys don't need to wake up that early. And guess what? Life doesn't have to be this hard. That's my motto for the year. Life doesn't have to be this hard. Exactly. One thing that stood out to me, women are in this, but, like, they're always facing away from the camera.

And they're always, like, performing some sort of, like, subservient domestic duty for these men, like steaming their clothes or cooking them breakfast. Yeah. There is a woman present who basically cooks and feeds him food. She's faceless. Maybe that is her choice. I definitely noticed how he kept in a lot of footage of hospitality workers, of people giving him towels. There's class commentary there, but I don't want to comment on it.

Okay, do we save? Do we scroll? Save. Save? Save? Okay. Yeah. All right. Let's save it. Do you like organize your save folders? Like your saved videos? I do. On TikTok? Yeah, I do. I try to, but then sometimes I get lazy and like overwhelmed by like, but I'm like, oh my God,

it's a new category. It's difficult. If you pay me 10K, I'll do it for you, Morgan. I don't have 10K. Okay, well, this guy does. But maybe I need 10,000 of that. Maybe I need to start making these videos. So we chose save on the alpha male warning routine videos, which means we're going to hold on to it for a possible future episode on the Manosphere. Nice.

Okay. So now it's your turn. What did you bring? Morgan, I am bringing to you the Haley Bieber seven part video. Have you heard about this? I have seen posts about it, but I have limited my intake because I'm like, Candace will just explain it. Oh, I got you.

And let's start from the beginning. Okay. In August 2024, a YouTube channel called Internet Audities, they posted this like 18-minute long video. It is called Haley Bieber's Dangerous Decor Long Obsession. This video is about how Haley Baldwin, now Bieber, allegedly plotted to date and marry Justin Bieber before, during and after his relationship with Selena Gomez, and they do call it stalking.

Haley would also appear at Justin's Toyota concert series performance in Rockefeller Plaza before following him to Los Angeles to attend the premiere of his movie, Never Say Never, where she can be seen watching him from the sidelines as he walks the purple carpet. The reason we're talking about this now is this video was posted six months ago. It's making the rounds again because someone on TikTok, they like broke up the 18-minute video into a seven-part series. In terms of why now, I do think it's important to note that this person who broke up the video is a self-professed Selena Gomez-Stana account. Okay.

Selena Gomez just released an album with her fiancé Benny Blanco. And a part of me does wonder if this Selenator like reposted this video because, look, if Selena does indeed marry Benny Blanco, there has been this cyclical narrative on the internet that's like wishful thinking that some people think that Selena and Justin might get back together. And if she indeed's marries Benny Blanco, that illusion is a little over. And I think what is different now is that Hailing is now, according to TMZ, quote, considering taking legal action against these allegations that she's stalked Justin. And I would just say that this doesn't really mean anything until we see a docket, until we see some papers filed in court. But I do think this is about celebrities coming for, like, anonymous fans and haters who speak ill of them. I mean, can a celebrity prove that the rumor is being put out on something as ethereal as the internet? Are they malicious enough that they deserve to be silenced completely?

I don't think so. I'm curious, would she be going after the person who made the original 20-minute-long YouTube video six months ago? Or would she be going after people who, like, reposted or, like, shared the video or, like, cut it up and then posted it online in seven parts? That's a really good question. Who does she go after then? Yeah, and that's actually the real difficulty in why maybe we haven't seen a celebrity or an influencer fully come after, like, successfully legally snark pages or internet criticism. Okay, we're out of time. Save or scroll? I'm going to say scroll.

Scroll? Yeah. Yeah, I would keep tabs on it, but I don't think it's worth, like, a full save. Like bookmark it, but don't keep the tab open. Yeah. Yeah, I'm into that. Okay. Anyway, the whole idea of snark pages and, like, who's held legally, like, who's held legally? liable kind of brings us to our third story that I bring you, which is about the potential repeal of Section 230. Are you familiar with Section 230 by any chance? A little bit, but I think this is the first time I thought about it in a complex, analytical way. Okay, so basically, Section 230 is part of the Communications Decency Act, and people say it's

the 26 words that created the Internet. This is what it says. No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider. Earlier this month, the information reported that there's a bipartisan effort to like repeal it. And what Section 230 does is it basically protects internet platforms and also users from any legal liability for what other people post. So if someone on a Stark page was bad-mouthed Haley Bieber, a platform like Reddit that posts that Starpage wouldn't be held liable thanks to Section 230. The idea is that only you are responsible for your own speech online and not other people's,

even if you repost it or something. But it also means that tech platforms have less incentive to crack down on hate speech or harassment or misinformation since they aren't legally required to. A lot of experts worry that repealing Section 230 without any other, like, meaningful reform can have massive repercussions for free speech online. And if it's repealed, it means that platforms like Reddit can be sued for what users say on their site. But it also affects individuals too. Without Section 230, you can be held liable for not just what you post, but what you repost. You can be held liable if you write a take on

substack and someone else comments on it. You can be held liable for just forwarding an email. But my question is, like, will repealing Section 230 kill snark culture online? Like, what does the internet look like without snarging. Yeah. This is very tough because Section 230 has bipartisan repeal efforts because there are some people who think it is not doing enough to protect kids online. And there are some people who are saying it's doing too much to protect like free speech. I think this is one of those situations where repealing the whole thing is not the best option because we have a start. We just need to make it better. And that's the other issue. We all know that legislation does not always catch up to, you know, modern society. And so I think having something

like Section 230 is already a big deal. But it is a bit behind the times. I feel like this is like a common thing with tech policy and internet policy where regulators don't necessarily think about, like, the real use cases of the laws that they're trying to enact when it comes to the internet. Yeah. I just think a genuine thought I always have when we hear stories about this or even stories about censorship in countries like China, India, who have kind of gone this way of they have watered down versions of TikTok. I'm like, you guys keep going after social media, but you're not going after dating apps, which is what we really need laws about. I'm so serious. It's true. You can't tell me you're 36 looking for a long term, maybe short term open to monogamy relationship.

Okay. So with this, do we save? Do we scroll? Boy, save because this may impact our future of our beat and our jobs. Okay, Candice, what else did you bring? This is so dicey, and it makes me feel icky, but I have to do it for you and for me. Okay. Luigi Mangione, a lot of us are aware of this man. He is accused of killing the studio of United Healthcare.

There have been so many headlines about him, but the one that has been stuck in my brain for at least a moment. month is the fact that a source told Radar Online that Luigi Mangione has allegedly made upward of 20 sex tapes. Let's just sit on that. 20 is a high, that's pretty high for a what, a 26-year-old man? Quantity over quality. And, Lorian, I'm going to stop you right there because when this came out, someone emailed Luigi's lawyer Karen Friedman Agnifalo and she emailed them back saying, quote, hopefully everyone realizes these are fake and not Luigi. And this came after a sex tape broker claimed to have footage of this nature.

And he was selling it for a sex tape broker. Yeah, he's not a good guy. He has a very dicey history of doing things like selling Paris Hilton sex tapes as well. And I think off the bat, this is an extremely odd allegation. It's a weird story to run. But the good news is that TikTok is not taking the bait. So you guys found out that Luigi filmed some sex tapes. What I'm asking is that you guys don't watch them, please, because I didn't look good in them.

My hair wasn't done. I mean, during that time, I wasn't my best. But let me stop. Morgan, do you want to jump in with thoughts? Okay, first of all, does a sex tape exist? Have we seen the alleged sex tape? And then second of all, is that actually Luigi? Oh, okay.

So here's the difficulty. There is no footage that Luigi's lawyer is saying is his. What the sex tape broker was trying to peddle was that he claimed that he had footage of someone who looked like Luigi performing acts in a bathroom. And here's the deal. Even if that tape is Luigi, even if that tape does not exist, let's say the tape does exist, but it's someone else. Does this person have the consent to sell footage of that stranger for $500,000? Right. that they're probably not going to touch that money at all.

There's consent right there, right? The second part of it is that supporters of Luigi are obviously rushing to deny this narrative that the tapes even exist, insisting that this is the media, this is places like Raider Online and Daily Mail, trying to smear Luigi's name, especially when he is being held, especially when he cannot defend himself

against allegations like these. Yeah, I mean, it seems like a really shitty attempt at capitalizing on people thinking that Luigi Mangione is attractive and it just seems like they're taking advantage of people wanting to sexually harass him or this poor stranger who might happen to look like him. We're definitely having conversations about media literacy, which is not only about considering the source,

but also not trusting the source in front of you. I think that's really pertinent and not following for headlines like these, which is click bait because the media knows that social media has been writing for Luigi, and they have been weaponizing his appearance to draw in both haters and defenders. Okay, let's wrap it up. So do we save or do we scroll on Luigi's sex team? Save. Save. Okay. That brings me to the story that I have brought you today, which is also Luigi-related.

Are you ready? Yep. Okay, so this is about allegations that Reddit is banning pro-Louigi content. People were saying that, like, they upvoted a Luigi meme and then were banned for just, like, upboating it. not even for, like, posting it, which seems to be part of this bigger crackdown on, like, people trying to really rally in support of Luigi online. So this seems to have started in early March after a Reddit administrator announced that the site was taking a pretty significant shift in its approach to content moderation. And Miyasato from The Verge reported that Reddit started flagging content that just mentions the word

Luigi. So, like, Reddit's auto mod is flagging posts about Luigi's Mansion 3, the video game that came out in 2019 that has nothing to do with Luigi Mangione. And Reddit told The Verge, there isn't a site-wide filter. They don't expect people to stop talking about Luigi, but like, what's the truth, babe, right? Yeah. This kind of brings up questions about this larger internet-wide crackdown on free speech across all social media platforms. And you had your own experience with some Luigi content that got taken down, right? Do you want to talk about that? Okay. So I've been personally affected by this, which is that on TikTok, I posted photos of him just from the courtroom on

TikTok. I didn't say I loved him. I didn't say I hate him. I just said, Fave Luigi photos. And I'm not going to lie to you. I had a hit because within two hours, I did get 9,000 like. And let me tell you what happened hours later, I get a notification from TikTok that says your post has been removed for violating community guidelines. But what guidelines? They wouldn't tell me. They would not tell me which guidelines. They wouldn't tell me how I infringed upon it.

I think what's really funny is like literally prior to this video going up, I was a completely private account that made no content. And so they kind of swarmed on me immediately. The video was taken down. I got so angry. Yeah. They didn't tell you what community guidelines you violated. And that's kind of similar to Reddit too, where like, yeah, there were people like,

you know, advocating for violence, whatever, right, crackdown on that. But then there are also examples like upvoting pictures of Luigi in court in his little sweater and like people getting banned for doing that. And people were like, okay, well, what's the truth? Are you trying to crack down on free speech? And Reddit is, of course, saying like, no, no, of course not. But I do think that this is just happening online everywhere, which brings me to my next question, do we save or do we scroll?

We must save. I think we have to save this. Like, I think that, oh, we will be doing a Luigi deep dive. All right, more saving and scrolling with Candace right after this break. Support for a key QBD podcast comes from Xfinity. Thanks to the Xfinity five-year price guarantee, you're guaranteed five years of reliable Wi-Fi with our best equipment, no annual contracts, and no fees.

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Join the Norty Club to unlock exclusive discounts, shop new arrivals first, and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack. I have a fun one for you, and it's a little bit unhinged. Are you ready? Yes. Are you familiar with Brian Johnson? Sadly, yes. So for listeners, Brian Johnson is this millionaire, and he basically was like, I'm going to use my fortune to stay young forever. It's a total plasma exchange, which means I'm going to remove all the plasma from my body and get new stuff put in. Everything I do is an attempt at discovering what slows the...

on my speed of aging and reverses my aging damage. Literally, he has a whole, jokingly what he calls a cult called Don't Die. And it's this movement dedicated to like anti-aging regiments. Right. So he takes dozens of daily supplements and he went super viral for doing blood transfusions with his teenage son and he's obsessed with like optimizing his sperm count and erections. Anyway, he usually posts very tech foundery things like his. latest biohacking results. But then a couple of weeks ago, he suddenly gets funnier online and

starts participating in meme culture. He's posting like pictures of him in this Ebenezer Scrooge get up and sunglasses and being like, don't forget to go to bed. He's speaking to a certain audience, right? He's really endearing himself and like humanizing himself. Well, the New York Times did a huge expose on him and they say that he makes everyone in his life sign like confidentiality agreements. from his employees to his ex-fiance. One of the agreement says that his employees have to, like, be okay with him walking around basically naked and that they're okay with hearing about his boners and that his behavior won't be, quote, unwelcome.

Anyway, it's a whole mess. But people are still rallying behind him and being like, oh, dude, you're so funny. You're just like some weird guy who loves to post online. And so it makes me think that this entire rebrand was preparation for this article to drop. I don't know. Have you seen this before where like the new crisis PR is meme culture? Yeah. So this is super interesting because it's kind of obvious that Brian probably has hired a social media consultant to tap into this market that will hopefully find him likable, so likable that they may or may not read the New York Times piece and go, ah, like Brian's one of us. And the thing about Brian Johnson is that I think,

maybe even going all the way back to those alpha male day in the lives we were talking about earlier, maybe those are the people who find him interesting. I frankly find him boring and on top of that, I kind of remember when he first kind of like became a news item, especially with the blood transfusions. There was some sentiment of like he wanted to look as young as his teenage son. Yeah? Yeah.

The thing is, if you have ever been the daughter of a mother, you've been in those trenches, you're not new, Brian. Do we save or do we scroll? I would really love to scroll on Brian Johnson. I never want to hear from him ever again. Okay. Candace, what's our last story for today? Let's end on a happy note, which is that breaking news, breaking news, Trinity Rodman and Ben Shelton are dating.

Do you know who I'm talking about? I have no clue. I don't follow sports. What's happening? Tell me. All right. ESPN parlayers clock in. So this story is not really about sports.

This story is about the art of the hard launch and how one can take a soft launch and parlay it into a hard launch. Let's define some terms. A soft launch. It's when you are softly, subtly, telling your audience that you are dating someone, but you are not revealing.

The identity of said person. An example, you post an IG story. You have two drinks in the frame. You see one hand and another, but you don't tag the hand. You don't show face. that is a soft launch. The hard launch is basically when you post your significant other on grid. There's a tag. There's a caption. It stays on the profile until you break up with them.

And this story is about the soft and hard launch of Trinity Rodman, who is a soccer player and Belden Shelton, who is a tennis player. Trinity. Lovely, lovely girl. She won Olympic gold. She plays for the Washington Spirit. Her dad is Dennis Rodman, the basketball player. Ben Shelton, player up and coming. Slowly been raising his profile. And I think more people actually know Trinity than Ben and I love that. They're both young. They're both like 22 years old. They love to troll the audience. They're both known for being kind of funny and having personalities on the field. So we go to March 6th. Ben jumped on this trend that starts with a glorilla verse, which contains the lyrics. They say shoot, shoot. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Duke Dennis was so. Shoot.

They say shoot or shoot. Duke Dennis, what's up with you? And on TikTok, in place of Duke Dennis, people will, like, write out the name of the person they have a crush on. So Ben does this trend. And in place of Duke Dennis, he writes the letter T with six asterix, which does line up with Trinity. And at first people are like, ha, ha, ha, nice try, Ben. You think you can get her. But then the same day.

Trinity posts a TikTok, same trend for the name. she puts three underscores. And people are like, B, E, N? And so it's like, you. March 17. It's like leaving little clues. They've been like teasing us.

Yeah. March 17th, Ben Shelton posted an Instagram carousel. On the last pick of the carousel, it's a photo of Trinity kissing his cheek in an elevator, and the world stops. Hard launch, baby. Hard launch.

And look, I think this is wild and bananas because my personal theory is that I wonder if Trinity and Ben were already dating or had already connected. And instead of like hard launching on the gram first, they decided to play with like a TikTok trend to kind of soft launch, to tease, to prime people up to the idea of them shooting their shot at each other. And so by the time that they post the IG, you're either thinking, oh my God, Ben shot is shot and it worked. Or you're thinking, oh my God, they're so funny. They were playing with us the whole time and they used TikTok to do it. And either way, I'm here for it. I love a good hard launch.

I love a good soft launch into a hard launch, but I agree. It is an art. It is like you are kind of like teasing people. You are like easing them into the idea of like no longer being single. Now Morgan, not to turn the tables on you, but should we save or scroll? Oh, I'm saying same. I want to do a whole episode on the art of the hard launch. So Candice, do you have any takeaways about the internet?

the state of the internet based on our stories that we have gossipped about today. You know, I think what's really hard about covering the beat that we do is that like oftentimes the stories that kind of breach surface that are worth an episode that are worth headlines are kind of dark and dire and like kind of unhopeful. And so I think it is always important for us to hold space and find joy. All right, Candace, thank you so much for joining me today on our first save or scroll for close all tabs. And thank you for adding to our infinite pile of episode ideas. Thank you for having me.

Candice, if anyone wants to follow your work, where can they find you? You can absolutely find me on the Slate podcast, I see why am I? In case you missed it, I'm there twice a week talking about internet culture with my co-host, Kate Lindsay. Did you hear any topics on this episode that you want to hear more about? Anything that piqued your interest that you wish, we had spent more time talking about or something we scrolled past that you wish we hadn't. Anything we should cover in our next save or scroll? Let us know.

Drop a comment in Close All Tabs Discord channel at Discord.G slash KQED. Follow us on Instagram at Close All Tabs pod or hit us up at close all tabs at kkud.org. And if you're interested in learning more about what we talked about in this episode, check out our reading wrecks in the episode description. Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sun. Our producer is Maya Kweba. Chris Aguza is our senior editor. Jen Cheehan is KQED's director of podcasts and helps edit the show.

Sound design by Maya Kueva. Original music by Chris Agusa. Additional music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard. Audience engagement support from Mahas Sanad and Alana Walker. Katie Springer is our podcast operations manager. and Holly Kernan is our chief content officer. Support for this program comes from Be Wrong Who and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund.

Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California, local. Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gatoron Red switches. If you're enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. Thanks for listening. Support for KQED podcasts comes from Star One Credit Union. Give your savings account the love it deserves.

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