Club Random with Bill Maher - Andrew Sullivan | Club Random with Bill Maher

Episode Date: February 20, 2023

Bill Maher and Andrew Sullivan randomly riff on Andrew’s history in debating, the legality of certain substances in England, the terrifying nature of the Catholic upbringing, the people Andrew bonds with best, their mutual moments of enlightenment as kids, the benefits of circumcision, whether we’re born with certain desires, the beautiful melting pot of London, how you know when to throw down, and much more. 

Club Renew. I always call this the Afhas El Assad chair, because I remember whenever I used to see pictures of like Madeline Albright or somebody talking with Assad, it was always like this. Yes, it was like this. And she would complain that he would bitch for like would, you know, bitch, like eight hours about the plight of the hour of world and, you know, the history and the theory and like, before

they go, okay, but could we do something about the water rights and the golden heights, you know, whatever it was. And I feel like I could do better than boring you for eight hours. But also, I'm just glad you're here because I feel like I've known you forever, but we never really sat down. I know. It was always on the show,

or like a little bit after. You know, the professional about that though. I appreciate that about what you do. Oh, you mean like trying to be friends with, yes. It has to happen slowly and organically. Yeah. The way I grow this. Yeah.

No, you know, you're weak. No, I don't grow it, but, you know, and, but I feel like you and I are overdued for slowly and organically. We are because the truth is, are you barely ever saying anything I don't just, I don't agree with. And the same with you. I just feel like this man gets everything I fucking really.

I feel, and you say it so much more eloquently. Oh no. What you do, all you fucking limes are just naturally more communicative. You just are. It's amazing the way the facility you have with the English language. Well, part of it is, is, is coming from a big arch family. No, I did something in the schooling in the British history and, you know, it is the mother language.

It wasn't the Oxford Union, Bill. You what? I was president of the Oxford Union. Well, there you go. You know, I was like chair of the Oxford Debating Society. I'm like, this is, I've been doing this for, and... Well, I was captain of my little league baseball team. So fuck you. You're an American now, man.

I told you. I didn't move to your fucking country. You moved to mine. But, you know, but really for the amount I really love you, it's a very overdue thing that we would sit down here. And, oh, God, respectively, size cigarettes. sit down here and uh... and uh... well-guar with respect to the size cigarettes ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Uh-huh. Big balls on the end of Big Men. Like when they bring the thing at Midday, but we have the big joints over here in America.

The...cannabis in England is a really weird thing, because... Is it illegal? They're still...they're still terrible about it. It's illegal. It's not. Not anywhere. Not anywhere. The public debate is terrible.

Not in any of the four countries? No. Really? No. No. And it's this, well, I found it, we maybe we should wait until we do the podcast, but. But I- We're doing it. Oh, it's happening right now.

That's the beauty of this podcast. I'll say you just don't know what's happening. Well, the thing about weed is that I grew up, well, when I was in college, I mean, I was a totally uptight, completely doing my homework, terrified, little gay Catholic boy. I was the same thing if you take out the gay.

Terrified, doing my homework, terrified of, I don't know what, but like a lot of things, like a lot of anxiety. Way more than heaven as an adult. Yeah. Well, I was terrified mainly because socializing, I had to get in beat up. No, but I was also the girl thing. I couldn't hack it with the girl. I couldn't either, and I'm not gay.

So I guess you're gay. I'm not as. So I guess you're okay. I'm Mayas Welman gay. School. Is it right? Some of my most bonding moments with straight guys is with nerdy Jewish guys who had exactly the same experience in high school. But I'm not Jewish. Well, you have Jewish kind of.

I didn't even know that until I was 13. Okay. Well, I just mean that there's a certain never she. But it was the Catholic upbringing I think I. Well, it just means that there's a certain, never she, I should be quiet. But it was the Catholic upbringing I think I had that made it even worse because there's so demonic about sex and it's sex is so bad. I never once had a discussion with my parents like once my father gave me the facts of life

and it was a very awkward and we're both glad to get over with in five minutes. But it was just a point of such embarrassment at home to even bring the subject. Oh, so if I was watching TV and something came on, it was sexual, you would feel excruciating. And in those days, it was nothing. It was like, oh, Christ, we're watching some like it, how didn't look at that dress on Marilyn Monroe and I'm getting a boner, and Mom probably knows it. And I remember watching that on TV, and just like flying up to my room to Jericho.

I just remember thinking, how does my mother launder my pajamas when they actually at this point can stand up? I'm so excited. I was so funny you say that I had the same situation. I just had this like a complete blizzard of... Come, I know. Here's the, tell me if you had this like complete blizzard of come. I know.

Here's the, tell me if you had this experience, I doubt. But I think that's a gopher. When I started masturbating, I didn't know what it was. Me either. Okay. No idea. Right. No idea what the fuck was happening.

Anything was happening. Well, first of all, the only thing I'd ever seen come out of my dick was urine. So I assumed it was urine. And because I was so scared of it, I was doing it only under the covers in the dark. I mean, the idea of looking at something like people do with porn and then to across my mind.

And nor there was any access to anything like that. It would be everything that was just in my memory, the girls I saw at school, hot women I saw on television, pictures I saw in risky magazines, like TV Guide and Time, you know, but that was enough to get a boner. I mean, anything wasn't that age.

So I would just be jerking off in my flannel pajamas. So the com would go into the pajamas. Okay, so listen to this. I get to be like 14 or something and I'm still doing it this way. And my sister goes off to college. My mother had a nursing job and then she worked one night a week.

I would, the night I was home alone, I would take my crusty pajamas and go down to the laundry room. And while my mother was away, I put the pajamas in the wash. That's what my sneaky thing was. And I feared the day my mother would like forget something and come back to the house

and she'd be like, Billy, is someone doing a load? I'd be like, someone's cleaning a load. Right. I mean, what the fuck? What do I think? I just gave him to my mom. It was like, I didn't care.

It's funny. I actually, the weird thing about me was that I remember, I remember the first time it happened. This happened down here. And I had no idea what was happening at all, feeling intensely, it was basically the best thing that happened to me in my life. It was just becoming sexually alive. It was the most...

It's often still the best thing in my life. Like definitely on Mondays. Often Tuesdays. No, it's so... No, I was just like, so I'm supposed to think this is simple, and terrible. And my actual experience of it was this is fucking amazing. Right, I remember having the thought in my head when I didn't know what it was, but I was so scared of it, thinking to myself,

oh, I hope this isn't hurting me, but it doesn't feel like it hurts. You know, like there's something about this, but the fact that I just wouldn't ever, like physically lay my eyes on it when it was happening. Really? Yeah, I was doing it under the cover. So I was just, you know what I was, I was rubbing it against this stuffed animal,

named Crazy. I used to fuck my teddy bear as well. I said, I'm kidding you. I was here. You were perfect, you were fucking it. I was just rubbing my dick against it. No, I was. Because it was convenient.

I was, I after a while, I realized I can't give these, these self walking pajamas to my mother. Maybe if I just get all this goop into this thing, it will, that will be... When did you realize that it was something different than urine that was coming out of the end of your dick? Very. I mean, first of all, I don't know whether I do remember the first time it happened, which was kind of a little painful, like a little painful, like this little pearl, this like white little pearl, this not clear little pearl came up. And I'm like, what is that? Oh, so you did see it. You did it in the light.

I did it in the light. Absolutely. I was not, I was clearly with, and it kind of like happened in your, with your hand. Oh yeah, of course, in my hand. I didn't think of my hand to like cream. I didn't think of that till like year three. I'm telling you, it was just crazy. I mean, I was just. You were repressed. Well, I mean, I didn't know where I got my,

where I just was like, well, this is so fucking great. This is the best thing to happen to me. I would run home from school so I'd have like 45 minutes of all my parents would come home. Right. Lock myself in the bathroom, get my mother's lotion, moisturizing lotion, because they cut my usual foreskin, like, what's going on for terrible age.

But, uh, what are you circumcision, you know, man? I got a second size, you know. So did I, aren't you thrilled well you did wouldn't need moisturizing if you didn't if you wouldn't need moisture moisturizing dick would look awful I mean I do this bit in my act but an uncircumcised dick to me looks like something that lives in the ocean it's one one of the grossest-looking things. And I've had people, when I've talked about this publicly, actually protest because they see it

as some sort of general mutilation and all this, you know, caused stuff. I'm sorry, but we're gonna, this is an error. Just, I really, I'm really pissed I have my force going to take it away from you. Yeah, we can disagree on that. I think you should be thrilled. I really, I'm really pissed I have my force going to take it away from you. Yeah, we can disagree on that. I think you should be thrilled. I really do.

I know people say you can die from it. And I say, I don't give a fuck. I have to look at porn. I don't have to. I choose to, but you know, I don't want to look at that thing. I can't look at any point with an uncircumcised dick. It's just too disgusting. How anyone could put it in their mouth, let alone look at it.

I mean, look at it, let alone put it in their mouth. Well, I feel the same way above the giant. Right. No, I actually like force, but we're on the other side. It's kind of a good fan of Ford's skin myself. Really? Yeah. So when you're...

This is something you would like choose in a mate. It's a plus. It's a plus. So you've been with both. Oh, yeah. Well, America mainly, mainly none. Everyone. In my generation, everyone's basically circumcised.

And you think... And this is what... I grew up, one of the first things when I was going to school when I was in the showers of the other boys, because in England no one gets circumcised. And I was... Really? Yeah, no one does. It's... Maybe that's something you do with the teeth.

You know, back then. I thought I honestly thought that means I'm gay. That's maybe that's why I'm gay. I don't want that I have a different looking dick than these other dudes. Oh, I see. We used to call them Cavaliers and Roundheads. What's cat? The thing was the war.

The Cavaliers had these big floppy hats and the Roundheads had these little short hats and that was how. So I'd be a Round'd be around him yeah it sounds like something we could get canceled for like you called him a round head but it's uh I never and this is when people say to you were you not consumed by guilt I really wasn't and this is a thing. I knew I shouldn't be doing this. I knew that I was told it wasn't, but it was so intuitively, physically, obviously, wonderful, that I honestly just dismissed it. And like you, the opponent, absolutely no opponent at all, right. And but unlike you, I'm suddenly looking at dudes, which is another thing that just can't keep that. So what I used to do was I used to cut out I go to the Sunday magazines and the case that it had a like a fashion spread and there's

some dude with a shirt off. I'd wait till I'd wait till it was the very bottom of the pile. Before it was thrown out, then I would get it. I cut them out. I throw them out and then I put them, I had a scrapbook. It's uncanny, these similarities, because I did the same thing with, I still have it by the way. I saw it recently, something I made when I was 12 and 13, and it has notebook so sweet, you know, white line notebook paper that I had, but I had a note, but Scotch taped onto it, our pictures I cut out from, again, Life Magazine time, the newspaper of Rackowelch

and Margaret Zafila Renn, Bridget Bardot, Diane Carroll, you know, the hot women who I saw. I dream of Jimmy. I can close my eyes now and see in my imagination a fashion spread in the Sunday Times magazine called of boxes in boxer shorts. Oh. That was the, that was the kind of,

but of course I get to see all these fucking hot boxes. So how old were you? So you? 9, 10, 11. So you knew you were gay at nine. Oh yeah. I was literally at nine. It aren't what year.

That's so interesting. As long as I can remember. I mean, but I didn't have. But again, being gay means I didn't mean, oh, that means I'm one of these people that shops they're dicking somebody that. That's not what that's no one talking about. I, uh.

Sure, what I'm talking about. I mean, it's a relevant part of it for me. Oh, it is a relevant part for me now, but when I was figuring it out of 456, I was like, I don't know how that, it's curious to me. I developed a crush, I had a crush on my friend and I had a crush on a cousin,

and I didn't know how to deal with it. I really felt kind of weird. I got a little hot and bothered like when I was around in the, at six. I really felt kind of weird. I got a little hot and bothered like when I was around. That's sick. Yeah, just as a young kid. See, that's curious to me because I would not have thought of gay or straight when I was six or nine.

I remember learning that there was the latent stage. Of course, I learned this after I was in it, but it made perfect sense to me because I had a very serious latent stage. In other words, they say you're sexual when you're an infant. I don't remember that. But knowing me, I'm probably was jerking off all the time in the crib. Crazy probably. What's like? Oh, yeah. We used to do this when we were a baby.

We can look outside to see the brown brocking gently to and fro. Thought he's okay. But it's from as far back as I can remember, until I was about 12, 11, 12. I think it started maybe at 11, but I wouldn't let anybody know. I was had no interest in girls, which was going to be my big interest, but no interest.

I was interested in baseball and playing and shit like that. And it was, you know, boys hung with boys and girls had cooties. So, you know, I don't know if that's a very normal thing, but I'm saying I'm just saying. You're just percretious. No, I just, I just, there was, there was just feelings I had. They were not sexual feelings. They were just hard to explain that, that I that I just, I just, I just longed.

And then I would, then of course, I had no way of knowing how that could work out in life. So I used to dream, maybe I could be, I still look at the, because of worst society, was it the truth? Yeah. And where was society? When are we going? It was still illegal in illegal.

Still illegal. Right. And literally no one ever spoke of it. when I was born, it was still illegal in New York. It's still illegal. And literally no one ever spoke of it. It was always, it was one of these things that was so awful. And yet I think it was on a social gay country. I know you do. Well, the truth is, it's never gay in anywhere else. But the opal classes had this long toleration of it.

Very gay. They can be. They also not at some of the time. But, but working be like me, sort of, you know. So you were like a guy who was a kid who's thinking, I'm gonna have to live a life of subterfume. I'm going. No, I didn't even have that.

I just sort of geek black hole in front of me. I had no idea what I would do as a grown-up. I had no idea how I would get married. I just had to have these slight nightmares of what I would do. What kid wants to get married? Well, I just want to have some idea of the future. When they said, oh, you grow up, you'll do this. You'll do that. I had an idea of the future.

It was a voiding marriage. I thought it was actually a set-up allowed. I didn't hate to brag, but it is my birthday today. I think I can let out that brag that I got to this age without ever catching my big toe in the trap. Yeah, it's like that old New Yorker cartoon where it's two old toughest, this old couple is together in like the upper east side

and reading the paper once a day. I hear the gays they want to get married and the other woman, the wife says, haven't they suffered enough? But you were married. I am. You are married. I'm still on up. I'm trying, he's going to come over, I hope. Oh, I'm allowed. Oh, I thought I thought that that didn't work out. It is, it is not working out. I can't, I don't, I don't. Oh, of course, we're not going to talk about it. I'm just happy with your happy. We are happy.

We love each other. We create with each other. Oh, good. How are we going to live the rest of our lives? Right. It's just the question. Well, that's always the problem for everybody is that they can't figure out a dynamic that really works and can very long-term.

Well, you can. It can conforms with human nature, which is both something that gets tired of things, including people as hard as it is to say it. Certainly sexually, you know, I mean. Well, that's, I think, a male thing too, more than a female thing, but. Of course, well, yes and no, yes. It's like the Christ's rock line

that there's such thing as good and bad pussy. There's just old and new pussy. And that the attractions to the newness, the new exploit, the new body to explore, something else that's there. That is so driven into the male psyche, I think it in the male. It's not driven into the male psyche. We're born with it. Yeah, that's why I know.

Oh, okay. It's driven by our genes. It's driven by our entire evolutionary strategy. Yeah. And we just have to acknowledge that. Well, exactly. So, I mean, I never got the other thing that we do, is living so fucking long, the marriages now, like, it's three times the length of marriages.

I mean, it's hard to be together with someone that long when you have other options. The other thing is that people didn't have any other fucking options. Exactly. They had no options. They had no fucking options. Right. And social stigma, not being married, was overwhelming.

And certainly that was the case with me growing up. So I kept thinking, who do I get married? I can't marry. I just had this panic. That's all. And that's why in a way, for me later on in life, when marriage became a sort of obsession in mind, not a personally obsession, but I realized that that moment when you figure out I

have no future is the moment you start separating yourself out from the world as a gay kid. You start thinking I'm not as good as everybody else. I'm not worthy as much as anybody. Did you ever have suspicions or actual friends who were gay about other boys where you're like, oh, I could be friends with him because I think he's that, no, because you thought you're the only one, nobody else. So even when you were a teenager, there wasn't like a little secret. There was a, you know, like the group in school, the Goths and the, maybe the fact guy and the, and the, the, the, you know, I mean, just, there wasn't there a little, there wasn't a little, there wasn't, we kind of knew, but they certainly wouldn't say what they were. There was no articulation of this.

It was, but you did have some friends who are going through the same thing you were. Yes, but certainly that we would never acknowledge you one another. Right. In fact, we would intent on not acknowledging one. In case we were caught out, there was one dude in my high school. I went to an all-boy school. So it's rugby at its center, and also academically, absolutely. Rugby? Everyone played rugby, and the school worshiped the top rugby team. And we were a really good rugby team. And we were really good rugby team.

And you look like you could be good at rugby. That my dad was in my time with me. I have the rugby build. They put me in the middle of the scrum. I have a thick neck. I have that. But I hated it. And I hated it.

And I hated being in the middle of a scrum. Well, no, there were advantages. Your Saturday, your sit in there, your ass. Well, would you put your head down among all these butts? It sounds sexual. It sounds like something that would be in... Rugby players scrum. Like when I and I grew up,

they would not take showers after if they took a bath together. In a platonic way? Yeah, but it's all, and of course, all of that, all of that they have these. So I went, my dad was in the rugby club, so I'd go up occasionally and they, for example, they had a big fucking poster on there, main pub wall, just the naked woman, big tits. So it's, it's in rugby club that's the, that's the ethic, right? It's a real It's a real, but anyway, but what was I saying about Rose? The soccerist seems to be more violent.

The people in the stands. Oh, well, yeah. The people in the stands. Our American sports. Isn't it more though? It's kind of completely gone. And again, because the main reason is gone is, first of all, they actually put seats in them.

Before, if you get men in a massive thank you, bro, in a massive... Massive... Crowd of just men, just men. It develops certain dynamics. Well, anytime you have just men, you're also gonna go south. I mean, whether it's the Taliban or Wall Street... No, it was in the Catholic Church.

When I was going up in school with all boys, so we were... Assembly will be everyone standing in a big rank, so packed into this hall, and you can away with shit. What do you mean? Good away with what? Well, for example, if we were supposed to sing a hymn,

and we would not sing it except for the various words that would come out of it like hard and so. Oh, yeah. Of course, yeah. Right? And it was hard. And the teachers of course, you just fucking hated it. They were really pissed off, but they were, because we were all doing it. They couldn't find a way to stop it.

Or we just started to go, as boys, it was incredibly fun. I was not the real, the real mischief maker, but I definitely enjoyed it. But again, it doesn't. And were you popular? Were you ostracized? Because I had a lot of ostracizing. No, I was, I was the, what we call the SWAT.

I had a role, which is I was the nerd. I was the guy that got all the best grades and so on and so on. I was the smart one. And to somehow, they kind of respect it in a way. It was a crazy class of boys. There were 30 of us. One of them turned out to be fat boys slim. The other one who sat next to me is now the leader of the opposition Kirsta Amur, who I sat next to for five years and fought with every fucking day on the bus there and during school. And the other one was the chief poster for the remain campaign. It was a really incredible bunch of guys.

I read your column recently and you were quoting a stat about London, which resonated with me because I sort of said the same thing in a different way, anecdotally, that the first time I went to London was 1984. And it was a completely white city. And then I went back and I think, I don't know, but the last time I was there, it looked like New York, which I'm saying happily, celebrating that. But you were making the point that I think this stat was like it went from, in 50 years, from 86% white to 36 or so.

That's right. Yeah. Okay. So, in 50 years, that is... And your point when I'm often making also is like, just don't gaslight me. Don't be like the world is irredeemably racist or it can't change. Because we have the statistics, it can.

We're not people who should be deprived of the joy of celebrating our progress. And you know, at the same time, you can't say, we've done all this without them going, there's still work to be do. Right, right. Adults assume that before the conversation started. That's why you're not adults,

and you're so fucking tedious. Because adults assume things the nuance part of it that doesn't have to, but you but you saintly people have to hear it out. Okay, yes, of course we get it. It's fucking amazing, the things that happen the day that we take for granted, and they all they complain about. Again, this is like, what was I going with that? I mean, I wanted to go, but just let me pour it. Yes, and also in five. To go from 86% to 39%.

To 39% is like, don't tell me things don't change. And show me the white supremacist mortgages. Show me the other part of this is, look. To me, you look, you're regular English people, traditional people out in the countryside, out in the small towns, the summer of Londoners, they're gonna find this kind of wit, they're gonna be absolutely find this

a little bit world-renowned, they're gonna find this a little hard to take in, and they're gonna have reactions to it. What, that London look so divergent? Yeah, certainly, like, of course that it's so ritual that it's, or that it's a center, like when I, when he's go to London, it was a totally different city when I left it. Now I feel like I'm going to an American blue city.

I have the same facilities as I was. But, of course, in the march of human history down the road of progress, there are always going to be stragglers. There are stragglers in this country. Yes, stragglers by the way. And the point is exactly, you can't just stop every set of ideas that doesn't make you go, and there's more work to be done.

Yeah. And just acknowledge. They won't actually celebrate. That's the last thing you do. Those stragglers don't have power anymore. They don't buy in large, but also my feeling is. And they're not popular.

It's not popular, of course. Of course isn't. It is so like, yes, is there work to be done? And then you've also written about this. I love the kind of like attitude that some wokesters have about, well, if only the older white people would die. Like, you're perfect at handling the world.

I'm sure darling, you'd like this hurry up die. I think you wrote that hurry up. It's like what a terrible attitude to have. I mean, even with people, and people essentially on your side politically, even. But also, of course course the Trumpsters. If they would just die, then things would be perfect because... It's, I mean, again, do they hear themselves?

Do they hear themselves? What the way they talk about large groups of people? My feeling is, look, in all of human history, the vast majority of it, like, think of England, this is another step. In 2015 alone, more people net my graded into United Kingdom than all the people that migrated into United Kingdom from 1066 to 1950. In one year. In one year.

In one year. In one year. In one year. In one year. In one year. In one year. In one year. In one year. In one year. In one year. In one year. The pace of this is unprecedented in human history. Now America is different.

America's always been had this massive amount of new people coming into New York. The fact that London... Well, it goes to a little island off the rainy island off the top of the cross of you to seek their fortune. I'm few. Some people did from the Commonwealth and elsewhere, but no, people left it. Those islands by and large. And the people that stayed there

have had such an incredibly homogeneous, even genetically, they're in a line, they cut off. Suddenly, their whole world is revolution. Right. Of course, you're gonna have people who are gonna feel upset and confused and feel like they're losing a sense of their country and who is this and whatever.

And of course, my brother said to me about London when we were talking, I'm going to London when we could, he said, well, it's not our capital anymore, is it? Yeah. I mean, it didn't mean it racially. No, and that's the, again, that's the, that's the, that's the new ones that they refuse to see or understand. You don't like the English capital. It's a totally different world. It's like a spaceship landed from globalization land in which all these super smart and very wealthy white people and all their multicultural diverse, multiracial servants essentially live in these big bustling cities. And there, I mean, London today is,

I would much rather live in it than London in 1984, but I don't begrudge the people that feel like, shit, what's happened in my world? I don't understand this. So what is it? When I say what's happened, I'm caught a racist and fuck you. And both of Brexit.

That's what happens. What is London like? Last time I was there, I think I'd been a London five times. I was there in 1999. We did politically incorrect there for a week. I was kind of a bust, but I enjoyed being there. Um, and then I was there in 2015. Some other times.

I once did the Bob Monk House show. Do you remember Bob Monk House? Bob Monk House. Oh my God. Bob Monk House was. Do you remember Bob Monk House? My God. Oh my God. Bob Monk House was like, they've described to me as a combination of Ed Sullivan and Johnny Carson. Not quite, no. But, just the most incredible, there was something just...

But you had a big show. Huge. Okay, so for an American comedian to go over there and do that show was a gig. I was like, the best gig I'd had up until then. I remember. They gave you, they had to, Union rules give you first-class airfare and two tickets. And first-class ticket was like $10,000 round trip. And you could trade them in, as of course I did, for one person in coach and

make more money than ever made on any gig in my life. That was the Bob Munkhouse show. And I think I did too great on it. I have a... But yeah, he was an interviewer. I just have this complete free association with that show, which is, I think it's that show, it's either that or Dezo Connor. Maybe it was Dezo Connor. Dezo Connor. A similar character at the time. These sort of variety show people who are allegedly funny. But here's the thing. So I didn't think of me. I'm like a 10 year old boy watching the Bob Munker's Dez Okona show.

So there is to watch. And I see this sketch in a doctor's office. And this guy comes in and he's the patient lies down, the doctor's awesome take off his shirt. He takes off his shirt and he has this incredible mass of body hair. All I'd never seen a man with like, it looked like a forest.

He was a sweater. He was a sweater. And I just was looking at the screen just mesmerized for this. I could not take my eyes off this chest. And I literally the next day I said, and then he nodded that, but the doctor got to like tap on it, listen to it,

tap the hair in there, and then the next day, I'm like, mom, mom, how do you become a doctor? Yeah. Yeah. That's how I knew it. That was the only way in which I knew I was gay. I just thought, oh, is that the way you could, the only way you could do that was if I, if the man can touch a man's chest, but only if he's a doctor.

And so how do I do, that's what I have to. So you're spending your whole childhood thinking, trying to figure this fucking thing out, because no one said anything to you. And I mean, if you really want to be happy with that prologist, it could be a prologist. Just the way a straight man can choose, and I always thought it was suspicious to be a gynecologist of all the specialties and practices who I want to know why these people pick vaginas and assholes.

I do, I'm not saying it does not need it, and I'm sure you make a nice living, but it also could have been hard, long, as kidneys. I mean, I could think of a thousand parts of the body, but to like go right for the asshole, I gotta know. But you know, here's an, that's, that's,

I, assholes, putting you in there. Oh, I can't even. Well, they just put the hole in, that's before I get, I mean, just hold in a second. Just hold it down. I'm not even going to talk about it much. I'm just, I'm just, I'm just noticing a concept here that it didn't, that was not part of anything I thought about as a gay person. Forever. I had no idea about it. I didn't know that involved sticking something up your bottle. Okay. You know, I didn't, I actually had my idea. So don't think I wanted to know.

I don't think, I was into not the bottom. And don't think I am in any way homophobic or don't love you and every gay person, gay man, when I say like, for whatever reason, probably because the way I was, they say everything happens in the wait a second, can I finish? Yes, yes. In the anal I was, they say, everything happens in the wait a second. Can I finish? Yes, yes. In the anal stage, for whatever reason, I mean, no one likes shit, but I really feel that

I dislike it more than the average person. And so just the idea. I mean, I don't like to do shit itself. Now I'm going to fucking it. I just, and I know you can clean it out. So it would never be clean enough for me. It's just, I mean, that's where the shit comes out. I just don't get you guys.

I mean, it's gotta be something. I mean, it's very Johnny Depp, you know, with getting into bed and finding out there's worse places as late than the wet spot. But anyway. No, no, no. But I know it's because he's what I was thinking.

I do not look here's the thing. I think it's perfectly natural. And people get mad if you're saying this. But I know this because I'm a man bit in the other way round. To feel not just, I don't understand that, but that makes me want to vomit. It's one of the things I actually repel by that.

It's what you're thinking about a butthole by having sex in a butthole makes you want to puke. It's a disgust to be like this, right? You're saying it. I'm just saying that's what it is. It's a disgust. I can't imagine that. You're saying it. I'm just saying that's what it is. It's disgust. And I think the fact that... But now I'm telling you this, in reverse,

of course I understand that. It doesn't mean your home of fucking food. Of course it doesn't. And in fact, quite the opposite, what it means to me is that the fact that I can absolutely love it, that you can like that thing that I don't, is kind of the very definition of tolerance. It's cool.

It's not for me, but we tolerate each other's taste. Oh, especially if it doesn't inflict on me, and even sometimes when things do inflict on me, I'm like, yes, I will do that for my fellow man, for one reason or another. Oh, so it's a much, it's just more interesting world. Yeah, it's a way to learn. Yeah, people are funny. It's a,, it's just more interesting world. Yeah, it's a way. People are funny.

It's a, it's a, but it is fucking gross. Yeah, just don't know what the, I mean, I can, you, but, gay men feel the same way. I've caught that. I've caught it. But, yeah, I know. And I can, I can, right, I can see in both cases, there's an order that's associated with it and and maybe you know

I don't like the one and I like the other advice. I think this is be even yeah prior to our liking things I think for say it's completely serious personal taste. No, it's not taste because it's not yes the level of rationality. You're right. It's driven. In some way, it's fascinating to me. Like, why, for example, would a man's B.O. Give me the hardest, hard on? Well, I think it's something to do with being gay. I'm no doctor, but let me tell you. I'm no doctor, but I'm inside yet. I have.

No, I know. It is so fascinating. So I don't begrudge my straight male peers of having these responses. But what do you make of that? I also don't begrudge them feeling uncomfortable in certain circumstances. Okay. Because I try not to put the male circumstances. I get an important question.

I got to ask you, Dr. Homo, while you're here with your ask-o-no. I'm asking you to be excused. Sharing your expertise with the young. What do you make of a civilization like Rome, where, unless I got the information wrong and I don't think I did, I'm no John Meacham, but I was a history major.

But I mean, ancient Rome, the Rome of Mark Anthony and Julius Caesar and Cato and O.J. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no you could, you fucked men and women. They didn't really have a distinction of gainess like we did. It was more like, who's cute? So like Mark Anthony had 12-year-old boys and hot women. And that was much more considered the norm. It's like, if you can be rich and be a baller and old-rome, you get the pick of the...

But notice, it's boys and women. It's not men. But it's still male people. No, no, no. It's still something without a vagina. Yes, absolutely. Well, that's to me the big one. Right. Okay, it's still boys, men, whatever it is.

So, can you see a... well, that's not so. No, it's loose, loose. No, no. Tell me, you can't do that. I mean, there are women, for example, that I can see and recognize as shockingly beautiful and sexy. I know. Right. It's like, I know, I know. I'm not. Of course, we're not blind. Right. And I can also think of them as beautiful in many ways. I can be in transpired. There was something deep down there. Some button is just not turned on. I'm not.

Again, I think it's the gay thing. It is the gay thing. That's what it is. It's where the God among us is. But I do think there were gay men in Rome who are not these people that are interested. But the other thing you have to understand is that nobody was gay. Everybody was sort of like bisexual. And that was more than norm.

It says something very interesting about something that's very current today, which is like the teaching that we're all sort of on a sliding scale. No, you and I have reiled against it because they're telling it to, they're doing what we talked about on the show today and we have to go into it here. But you know, kids too young to understand this stuff. But the idea that we are all like strictly straight

or gay, Rome kind of makes me think, yeah, they're definitely,'re definitely in a different civilization. And this was the civilization that led the world for almost a thousand years. And this is the world, the Western world. Yeah, well, the Greeks did. But, you know, the Greeks were, do I have to take more? We've talked, we've talked about Very small aspects of this, for example. So the feelings I had for another boy,

just a crush, had nothing sexual about them at all. Right? They were, there are the feelings of deep, this is the other thing that the agents are better at. There are relations between two men of real passionate friendship They're not erotic But are really intense the ancients had a much better. I mean like a kill ease and well know all the notions of

of Spiritual friendship among men in fact it was regarded as higher That's what a kill ease in the in Odyssey, is he's in love with that? I forget who it is. They are in love. You see, no, in love, I think you can... I think that's a very... It's a much more... I'm too stoned to talk about this. You know, I know exactly what you're saying, I think, which is like,

just the way women can only understand women on a certain level, it must be true of the same of men. So to have both that kind of understanding that only that kind of person can have for you plus the sexual element, that is a way to go. It's not my way to go, but I can't think of one. That is a natural part, but you can have the thing, I think one of the things that the Christian,

the Christians didn't like about the Romans and their sexuality was kind of instrumental. But this is hot. And women were treated as merely childbearing instruments and they weren't treated anyways equal. So while contemporary understanding of heterosexuality wasn't happening back then too, in that sense, there were there were lots of straight guys who would

at vibe with each other to get both the cute girls and then those the hardest cutest guys before they hit puberty when it all went south for them. The Greeks always in their aesthetics had worship male bodies with little dicks. Like the littlest was the hottest. Is that right? Yeah.

It's a culture in which smaller dicks are more attractive. So, and they didn't fuck the little boys up the butt. I don't know what about now. There was no butt fucking back then. It was what they called intracural, which was the between the thighs. But going back to the little dick, what about now? I'm just curious. So I think it's the fashion. I understand why big dicks are attractive to women. They actually

make it feel better. I would almost guess the reverts. The reverts. So little dicks are still in fashion. No? No. Why? I just have to ask you the deepest question.

Oh, come on. Now you're going to like pull this on me. I don't know. I don't know. I'm never saying why because the big ones look better. Why do why do why do game and prefer big addicts to small? Because it probably because probably just looks better. Or it's America.

We like everything big. That's true. No one over here seems to be universal. Uh, this thing. But is it interesting that humans will... It's a, it's a, it's a, somehow the more, somehow the more attractive I think because the dick is your most masculine feature. And if it's the biggest, you're kind of the biggest man.

It just looks better. It can't, small dick looks terrible. Not as bad as an uncircumcised dick, but a small and circumcised dick. Oh no, you're, and I love dicks. Oh no, that's you. Wait, okay, but isn't it interesting that humans will fuck anything? Totally, fuck it. Man, man, we'll fuck anything. Well, yeah, man, this is just correct. Man, we'll fuck anything. Totally fuck. Man, man will fuck anything. Well, yeah, that's just the idea.

Correct. But man will fuck anything. The more fuck anything. Fuck anything. Any society, right? Any point. You have very different arrangements and ideas about what's right and wrong. The question for me is what's actually going on

under the service? So, for example, I have no doubt that even though it was forbidden, really, and you don't see in the literature, two grown men in Grease or Rome having a long-term relationship because they kind of fell in love with each other or were actually also sexually attracted to other. That's not really validating a lot of the text back then,

but I bet it happened. I bet it happened. It have to, the feeling, the experience happened. The experience of gay men loving each other and falling off is throughout history. It's constructed in different ways in different circumstances. And but men also are different than women in as much as men want to fuck anyway.

And if they can't fuck women, they, in those circumstances, the situation will have a sexuality. They're fine with fucking buttholes and getting loved. But I'm funny that I've had you on real time, like, more than any other guest, because you are my favorite. And whenever you're on, like, I remember you on once with Barney Frank.

And like, the staff was all like pitching gay. I was like, no, the coolest thing is we don't mention gay at all. Right. And that's how I played it. Yeah. It's so funny. I stay here, or we do a few minutes. Oh, I don't know. I'm all, I think. It's so funny. I stayed here all we do all the time. Oh, I don't know.

That's all I think. It's got a fast thing. It's going to put an hour of dicks in your ass. But you know what? I never get a chance to actually find these things out because I love it. It's great to find out because I am curious. I didn't get, I mean, I didn't get, I hear. Where would I ever have this conversation other than like with you? I hope with your good gay friends. No, but I mean, I do't get, I here, I should never have this conversation other than like with

you. I hope with your good gay friends. No, but I, I mean, I do have good gay friends, but which, I know we don't, I mean, I'm going to talk about the mechanics of the whole thing, because frankly, it's, it's in a complete, but your co-crisis. So allian to you. Ask me, like about gay sex. Okay. Okay. Well, first of all, it was not the getting fuck in the ass is not easy experience and certainly not something that comes in anyway. Easily. And that I considered at all for very long time, for the obvious reasons. Right.

So then you got to like it. That's a very hazardous period. You got to try it. But you didn't, was it, you didn't get to like it. That's a very hazardous period. You got to like it. But you didn't, you didn't get to like it? No, no, yes. Oh, you do. Of course.

But aren't you, Bert, how do you decide which guy? It's kind of, you know, these really are the questions you always want to ask. Yeah, yeah. You can run it. What do you flip a coin? No, it's funny. First of all, you don't.

These are the questions you always order. You don't have to be constrained to either. You can do both. Each of you, I mean, you're capable of... And that's the most common, I would think. And one great advantage the game and have is that we know, unlike anybody else, any other group, what it's like to fuck and what it like to be fucked.

Yeah. You don't? You'll never know that. I'll never know that. You're home. I mean, you know. But we do. It puts us in a very unique category.

You also understand what it must be like for a woman in those circumstances. And how much, how vulnerable you are in that circumstances. And therefore, how power dynamics are not just super-restraint. This is, I was saying this the other day, I'm like, people talk about consent and all these very elaborate, and it's all right consent, and absolutely, I'm all for ethical sex.

But at some point, it's simply a fact that the human species to reproduce, one number of one sex has to physically repeatedly jam an object. physically repeatedly jammed. And object. Yeah. And not just once or twice, but quite a lot for quite a while until it's like you'd hurt, right? I mean, no, no. Well, how do you know?

Oh, I'll tell you to my women. I am talking about women. Well, I know. It was hurt ever. Oh, I'm not saying that. Well, I know. I really just heard ever. Oh, I'm not saying that. Well, I'm just not... I'm just saying it is...

They generally like it. And it's, you know, it's something hurts. They can hurt it. You're not a miracle. Like, it's a... Yeah, yeah. But at the same time, it requires to let someone else into your body. Well...

Is such an act of... Of open vulnerability. Yes. Absolutely. And I think sometimes men don't... into your body. Well, it's such an act of a vulnerable, open vulnerability. Absolutely. And I think sometimes men don't fully really understand that. I agree. And then, then, that also at that moment, they're not understanding anything. They're fucking animals. And one thing that gay men have, a lot of gay men have, not everyone, is that understanding, which I think is something that...

It's kind of wasted since you're never with women. That's what it's like hanging out with us. Because I can't get it. You know, we get it. It'd be the perfect fuck, but, you know. There were also victims of being men. Right. We could also be, the general that used to be,

it also can be really callous with one another and the the the cruelty of the aesthetic hierarchy can be brutalizing to lots of men. I mean it's just like you know everything you hear about the objectification of women and all the rest of it and and you you to the tear and use of women like that. It's true of the gay male culture, too. Yeah. Because men want the perfect thing. They want that we're more motivated than women are by very superficial physical thing.

You whisper two big boobs in front of a man and it's normal. That's a cliche. But it's true. It's unbelievable. I mean, everybody wants two big boobs. No, no, but I'm just saying, you know what I'm saying?

There's a point at which you're not thinking straight, right? And, yeah. But, you know, that's happened a few times. Um, you know, I mean, but, but I'm always just, you know, it's fascinating. Both sides, both ways. And, and relationships can involve both, or they can be quite rigid in which one is definitely one

and one is definitely other. So, okay, here's my next question about this. In a heterosexual relationship, mostly what I've found is that there has to be a kind of a me, Tarzan Eugene, dynamic, which, yes, you know, sexually doesn't mean you're an animal. I think Tarzan was a complete gentleman to my recollection. But like some, there has to be some sort of, you can't exactly be the same thing. You know, you're my co-equal partner is not going to get anybody hard or way.

Right. You know what I mean? There's a dynamic going on, but the people want to admit it or not, and yes, you can do it in a non-rape anybody hard or way. You know what I mean? There's a dynamic going on, but the people want to admit it or not, and yes, you can do it in a non-rapey, horrible way. It's just life, and everybody knows what I'm talking about. Okay, so...

In fact, you're getting... How do you consent and then get into that is kind of a high-stages civilization? Yes. So do you have that same thing with a gay relationship that where you're like, somebody is tarzan and somebody's Jane? Uh.

It's not really a video. No, no, I mean, you can. Absolutly, yes, you absolutely can. But you know, one could be a sabre, one was to be a sort of rapie top and like, tastes so bad. I'm so sad. No, I don't mean it in bad.

No, I don't. I just mean that's the, I don't mean it in bad. No, I don't. I just mean that's the person you want to, that's the kind of role you want to be. There's also people that have that kind of role in their sex and the opposite role in their lives. You know, there's so many, you know, uptight, very bossy control people who really just want to get fucked to be Jesus in the bedroom. And they found someone who feels the other way around. So I'm just saying there is no rule.

Obviously we're all humans. And I know there is, but there isn't the same expectation in a way that you're the man you gotta do, you know, really prove yourself. My next question. Okay. How do you know, like, say you're, I'm just trying to be a very careful young person. No, you're, like, say you're, I'm just trying to,

I'm just trying to, I'm just trying to, you're like any other couple you're out to dinner and you had a few drinks and you're both, first of all, I've always asked this question of heterosexuals, but like when you've been together for a while, how do you know when to throw down?

That was always my big problem. Like, you're like, how do you know when to do it? Like we could always do it because we're a couple, we could do know when to do it? Like, we could always do it, because we're a couple. We can do it anytime. So it's like, okay, so say tonight you're gonna do it. You go home, you know, you're gonna, this is gonna happen.

It's, yeah, both had done it in a couple of weeks and it's a Friday night, whatever the kind of thing the couples do. Okay, so you go home, you brush your teeth, if you're, you know, because you had dinner, which I think is gross to fuck after food, but that's how people do it.

Okay, I think it's reversed. Okay, but okay, so now, you know, one of you takes the other's hand to lead to the bedroom, let's say that. How do you know what, I could be either one, somebody, but so there's no like, no person, either one has to be like the tarzan,

it could happen either way. You get to the bedroom, like, somebody's gonna get blown. How do you know which one? Who's blowing and who's? You can, well, because you can start with one and then it goes to the other. Yeah, but how does it get decided?

That's what I want to know. How does it get decided? Somebody has to like- It's the first move, right? But there's no sort of like pattern with it in the gay world. You're making it sound like it's so arbitrary. Like how do we get to- Sometimes, but there are some relationships in which it's always- Okay.

One of the dudes is going to just be the top and the other guy is not. And then there are- But I've always found that if we were that, it's, it's, it's, I've always found dumbest density in sex hard to put together. Because I don't know when you're all, you know, you've had much dinner, you've had some friends, you've watched TV, and then you know you're going to have sex.

So it just takes the whole erotic charge out of it. I couldn't agree more. Do you know what I'm saying? It's just, I just feel like I don't know how people do that. I know. It'm saying? It's just, I just feel like a whole. I don't know how people do that. I know, it's just, it's just, it's just, I just don't do that. No.

It just feels, I don't know, it's like making someone a cup of tea. I agree. I'd rather play piano in a horror house. I really would. So that was, you know, that, you know, that can be a problem in a marriage, something, because after a while, how do you,

how do you, I'm telling you, sometimes I'm in a, I'm in a restaurant and I see a couple and they're sitting across the room and I know they're married because they're not talking to each other and it's not because they hate each other. They just have completely run out of things to say. And every 10 minutes, one of them will burble up some, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I see the school is getting a new coat of paint, you know. And I just want to walk over to that table

and put a revolver down and say, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, if either one of you wants to use this on each other or yourselves, everyone here will understand. No one will judge. And that's what I guess I don't get about relationships. Yeah, I understand. You're like, at the beginning, it's so exciting

and you're on a canoe, and it's going this wonderful, rapid river, but you know it's heading toward a cliff. That's it. You know, you, at some point, if you go all the way to Baghdad, it's gonna get boring. Yeah, I mean, and you can lie yourselves about that, I think. But I think at some point, you also, you can love someone.

That's the problem. I love remains. Yes, but that thing you're talking about, that tingling thing. Right, that, you know, but I think that is, you know, this is, no, but maybe thing you're talking about that ting that tingly thing right that you know But I think that is you know this is no, but maybe we can't feel that our whole lives We're never gonna feel that with them. So we have to accept that and it's a desire It's an act of will and it becomes an act of sacrifice an act of love and that I think is you know that would be what the

That's what happens when I see couples who've bought themselves 40 years, yeah. Well, still helping each other, still picking up, still helping each other to the app, picking up on the app board, giving them a hug in the end of the night. This is who we are, Bill. I know. And I think also, I just don't get it. The alternative, the single life, your life. life. It's just hard for most people. Yes. Well, it's not for you. It can be hard for me.

And it has been hard for me many times. But to me, that thing that you're talking about that's so hard to get, yes, that's the desire of the mouth for the star. That's one of your British poets said. And I'm sorry, but that's my, I can't fake. I'm bad, obviously.

But that's like what my, you know, I'm selling on TV. It's like, and it's okay, you know? And then what's there to be your turn tonight or mine? What, what? What it gets to be that your turn tonight or mine, you know? I don't know. I mean, again, this is a birthday. So you're getting me on a night when I'm obviously,

you can't help but be some reflective, a bit reflective on years, on changes, and like, it's a strange juncture because like what's actually in my life has never been better. I love it all pretty much. Love doing this a lot, which is a new thing in my life You know, so new things do come into your life and you know the bad is that you know it all could end tomorrow

because you're you know obviously Your body could just start falling apart, but as long as it hasn't, I mean, I pretty much do everything, because I didn't have a marriage or kids, I pretty much do everything I did 30 years ago. I got to it the same. And if people say, well, in some ways, because I had a- And that could be arrested development.

You could hate me for that. Or you could say, eh, he, he, he, he, he, he, that's what he likes and why, why, why change, why? Did you, did you see the banshees of Inesheran? I don't, I have almost seen it. I'm almost at the end. And let's talk about it.

The banshees have been a share and yeah. My friend Jimmy said, oh, you know, he and his wife saw they, they cautioned me off of it. So it came on, I. So it came on cable, which I can watch it. I can tape it and watch it in the kitchen. So I thought, oh, this is a kitchen show, because I watch things in different rooms, depending on how much I want it.

And I thought it's gonna be kind of, you know, talking in ponderous, which it is, but in the kitchen, it works perfectly. Yeah. And I'm almost to the end. the kitchen, it works perfectly. And I'm almost to the end. The spoiler alert, the cutting off of the fingers. I'm almost at the end and I don't quite see how it pays off.

I think he, the sister left. But what I, the scene I'm thinking of, just by what you were just saying, that's what I thought about was when Column who's come to this realization that you know, just being this normal person with a friend It's just we're all no one's gonna remember us so it's I have to be more than that I have to produce some music like you have to do your thing I have to write my point in the movie. Well, that's that's that's probably there it. There's a point of which is us. Yeah, and it is that that conflict.

And there's a point in the movie where Parick's sister Shabon comes goes up, brings him his finger back actually. Yeah, now this, but then they have this conversation and said, okay, I'll tell him not to do this anymore. You've blah blah blah blah. And then, and she says, you know, that wouldn't be good for your music, would it? If you chopped all your fingers off and he said, I will now get in somewhere. No. And then, and then, and then she said, at some point, he said, sorry, I'm just, this is haunted me this line. She said, you know, sometimes I think we just entertain ourselves

till we stay off the inevitable. Don't you think? And she said, no, I don't. And he looks at her and says, yeah, you do. So Irish. It's so Irish, isn't it? So Irish. So very Irish.

My people. And they had a rough, and yours probably. So I'm going to solve it. Solve it in more. Two Irishman's having a drink and name Patrick sort of Yeah, is there and I tell my get my 23 me back. I become wider Become more Irish, but the Irish the rest coast of our on these people I mean a lot of suffering and and a lot of that poetic in the soul from the suffering that I don't know Why I don't Polish I really don't believe this is possible and a lot of that poetic in the soul from the suffering that the Jewish, the Jewish, the Polish.

I really don't believe this is possible. I just felt like I just... My people, everyone's, it's been a lot of suffering in the world. Yeah, and I see that, I just feel this deep connection to it in some kind of way. The way they, for example, they mix this dark humor with, you know, or they mix this real anger with some... But what about what about it?

This better have a big payoff with, because like... Yeah, I don't like that. Okay, since we ruined the movie already. So, what year is this taking place in? I think it's in the 1923. That's why that, because he mentions the war. Okay, that's what we're... So, in 1923, Ireland, by the way way the beauty of where they shot it is astounding all those stone fences and

that yeah it's just gorgeous and the drone the drone photography really helps that too yeah it's amazing and it's not it doesn't it doesn't seem like an art spring commercial. No, it's it's it's a Colin Farrell and Brendan Gleason, such a great, both great actors. And they're in the village and their buddies. And one day Colin finds out that Brendan Gleason just doesn't want to talk to him anymore. And he's like, what the fuck? And he's like, you just bore me. And Colin Farrell, you know, who, one of the most charismatic actors of the last 50 years,

he's a boy. Okay, I got past that. He's just too boring to even talk to you. I'm like, I'm just an interesting premise. And then where the fingers come in, ladies and gentlemen, is the Brendan Gleason so much doesn't want to talk to the boringest person ever, Colin Farrell, that he said, if you talk to me one more time, I'm going to cut my fucking finger up. But he plays the violin, so we need to figure the fiddle. Okay, so of course he docks to him, and he just cut his finger off,

and then he cuts all his fingers off. And then Colin Fowl burns his house down. I got that far. And then the sister leaves, and then something happened at the end to redeem this story. You've almost done, buddy. Of what? Five minutes left? Is there any?

Yeah, I haven't seen the every end. What happened? Well, I spoiled it for everybody else. You spoiled it for me. I don't care. I know. You know, this is the happen. It's not like a fucking superhero comes down and shoots

rays out of his fingers. Something happens or doesn't happen. Doesn't happen. That's what Jimmy said. He said, he said, we're waiting for this big payoff and there is none. No, you know, they leave, we're then... Is that good or bad? But you like that?

I didn't need a payoff at that point. I was, uh, you liked it. I think it's a masterpiece. A masterpiece. Okay. I think and again, because I read my call about and what it and the wait, the theme of this is that it's about, but I think with what is it about the guy who's behaving this way? It's crazy. Crazy. Crazy. Is he's facing mortality? Is he's exasperate? All right. Pick stuff from you. He's looking at me too.

And you know, I'm not going to jerk off with that with a bunch of stumps. I'll have to get crazy back out of the closet. Crazy. He's like, oh, yeah, he's infant. I had you as a teenager. And now we're getting together when you're 67. That's me. We're constantly right now talking about the dangers of atomized society, individualism,

no common meaning. Everyone has a choice. And you look at that island and you see this old world where everyone knows absolutely everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's no radio, yeah. There's no radio. No.

There's not even like, electricity is far. It's got a donkey. And they've been there for fucking hundreds of years. Yes. This is their life. But okay, so my point is, this is what everyone is now talking about missing. And you can see why, because those people are having their own bedding. Okay, but what is the larger idea I'm taking away

from a guy who says to his friend, just one day out of the blue, you bore me to tears. You're saying more touting, in other words, he's like, every day, I only have so many days left because I'm feeling older. So every day must be filled with, like, what else was in the village?

I mean, there was nothing better. It's not like I could see like, hey, you want the right music and go beyond the village in some way. So why was talking to that guy at the pub, preventing that? Whatever the other. You, I mean, Bill, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, Bill, the... The literature... Yeah, I think the core decision of him to do this is baffling makes no sense at all. It is absurd.

Oh, good. And this is a darkly absurd film in the way that, you know, like Flan Americano's short stories, you suddenly got this grotesque thing right in it. So it's not, you know, it's a... And it's obviously a parable. This is not an actual island. It's his fictional island that he's created. So it's basically, I think, just a way for him to explore these ideas and to ask us, are we, do we want to be where we are with all this freedom? And, and, or do we, would we miss something there? And then he's

asking, what is the point of our lives? Is it really to just be with one another? And to listen even if we're bored, or is it to create something? And at some point you kind of face that. But the fact that he couldn't create anymore because he got off the fingers, he needed to play the violin.

It's almost like, that's the point, it's the Irish grudge. You were so fixated on your bitter grudge that you will literally cut off your nose despite your face. It is that way. It was a little bit gift of the magi. Remember the gift of the magi where the famous story where he, the poor couple, and she cuts off her hair, which is like her prize, her long hair, to get something I can't remember for him. And he sells something he loves to get combs for her hair.

And whatever it was, whatever they did for each other's gift, makes it so that neither one of them work out. It's a little like this story. Stupid. No. That's something about the Irish. And I see it myself. When I say things and do things and you do this too, that you know will be detrimental to you. And sometimes you think, yeah, fuck it. Well, you take risks. You say things that you

know will have big blowback, etc. But you're not going to, you know, at some point, it's still rational. I know it's rational, but there's. I'm making a decision. I will take, have you never in your private or personal or any life to stock your guns in a way that even at the end of it, you know you're hurting yourself but you still won't give up?

Yes, because, but for a reason, like I will spend political capital if I can use that term on something, on real-time where I know the big blowback, but it's an important point that has to be made, you know, obesity, trans stuff. I've done it, you know, a lot of times and so have you. But I'm not going to spend political capital on something stupid, you know what I mean?

I've picked my moments. There's something very Irish about hurting yourself to make a point. I understand this movie better now. We're like Cisco and Ebert and one of them was pretty stupid and the other would have to explain the movie to them. But you're literally hearing the Irish kill each other on the other on the mainland. You know, this is the Irish and with you, the here firing squad to the eye area of other Irish people in the distance. You do? In the movie? You hear those bombs going off on the mainland.

They took about the war happening and the guy's going to volunteer to give an execution. When you watch it in the kitchen, you miss a few things. I may have been at the refrigerator at that moment. I'm not that upset. I didn't give this movie its proper due. The guy, the poor guy who directed this must be like, what a dick watching my movie that's up for like every award while he's making a fucking sandwich. Do you know other Macdonough stuff? These plays are amazing.

The play. This is a play. No, this wasn't a play. It's a screenplay, but he's, he became known for these incredible plays. And because you can see it too, can't you? Because in a way... All right, you convinced me. I'll watch it in the bathtub. You know, listen. I do watch movies. I specifically, you know, DVR them in three different rooms in the house, based on like

what I... How much I want to pay close attention. I'll watch it in my bed room, like the TV that's in my bed. That's, I'm just watching it before I go to sleep. And I watch movies in the bathtub. And I watch them in the kitchen. And like the bathtub movies, sometimes I review them here. I'm going to start doing it again. Because they're like, I usually watch ones that are like from, I don't know, they're just the past that I saw long time ago, like terms of endearment, or I just watch rainman again. By the way, you couldn't make that today.

By the way, how many movies would we have to say, or if you heard the term, oh, they couldn't make that now? Like basically everything. That says so much about how we've gone off the deep end, and I they couldn't make that now. Like, basically, everything. Everything. That says so much about how we've gone off the deep end. And I'm so resentful of that. Like, the people who are always asking for apologies should apologize for all the things I haven't heard because somebody kept it in their mind because they didn't want to

say it out loud. All the jokes I could have laughed at. You people should be paying penance for that. And the movies that you couldn't do. The one movie I watch it, I try to watch every year as Airplane. It's my favorite one of my favorite movies. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. It's fucking to you. And the second one where they go to Mars or where they go to the moon or something. They go to the moon. That first one is just. Oh yeah, there is not a moment. No, David Tucker, brilliant.

Yeah. It's, it's, you just feel like. And that was that, that was to, by the way, I remember. And all the crazy ass jokes, all the crazy stereotypes. That was, oh, based on true things. Yeah. That's the other thing. It's like, you know, the most established finding

in social science is the truth of stereotypes. But that movie, Airplane, was groundbreaking because before that, people set up jokes a lot longer and there were less jokes per minute. And his thing was, let's make a movie. We're just from top to bottom. We cite gigs. Like, something's happening. This no minute goes by without we're actually laughing.

It's not a stupid, there is a plot, but yeah, and you could not make it. There's a scene where the black guys are in the courtroom testifying about the crash over Montso Grande. Are you over Macho Grande? No, not yet. Whatever. They all those word plays, and they speak in jive. I mean, right away you'd be can't.

But I've been watching movies where, I mean, the things they do just routinely. And these are like some of Hollywood's biggest liberals. And nobody said a word. That's my thing about when the woke look back to 1492 and said, we wouldn't have, yes, you would have. You would have been one of the same people who would never even occur to them.

You know, in the Bible, it doesn't occur to anybody to not have slavery. It literally doesn't occur to them because they have lots of rules about it. And no one goes, what if we just didn't do it at all? Yeah. Now you could like,

read your Aristotle as a whole chapter, well not chapter, but several defending it. So you watch movies from like, and I see these in the bathtub, like from 10, 15 years ago. First of all, they're often completely white. Right.

There's zero diversity. And I'm talking about Hollywood's biggest liberals again. So if it didn't occur to them in 2010, you know, yes, you can blame them and hate them, but I have to assume that the liberals are sort of the tip of the spear of how enlightened we are at least They think they are and it didn't occur to them. No And what you're describing is just really self-righteousness. That's what you're describing. Yes I mean, that's all that's it. But everyone in America America is particularly Hooked on that and they've always happened. I mean this is this appeared in country. It's like in some ways, Bill, the world movement is really the inheritors of the old mainline Protestant Improvis of society. I runically they are. Yes. That is what it is. They're busy bodies.

And it's and it's I always say that Harvard is basically returned to its roots as a debility. Right. Yes. But now, I mean, think about it. The old, they had to control their language. You had infractions of my minor parts of sin. You had to take care of. You had to be constantly aware of what you said and who you interacted with. Right.

You had to separate yourself constantly. I think we're always looking for witches. Oh, well, of course, the pursuit of heretics is the way in which you prove your virtue. Right. That's how I have to say. And they also had that thing, like if you, we think you're a witch. So we'll put you in the water. If you float, right? You were innocent.

And if you drowned, you were a witch. Or was it the other way around? Yeah, I think if you floated you were a witch. Or either way you lost. Right. And it's kind of like when they say, you're either a racist or you're a racist and you don't know it.

That's what I want to go. Oh, come on. Those are my only two choices. The better the subtler one is like, you're racist. I'm not. Oh, that proves it because you know, I'm such a white fertility. Right. How could I not prove it?

You can't. So you're good to carry. It's very easy to just give it. I don't even know. And they get to pick. And I go, fuck you. At the end of the day, you just say, fuck you. And you know, in so many ways ways I think they don't quite understand that

I'm not you know how I feel about Trump I mean you and I are completely winners, but you know I'm real pissed off a lot of people were Does it we'd rather fucking that guy than you I'm with so fucking sick of this shit Oh the people on the show didn't I just say to the li- all these li- it was fuck you That's what it was. It was the only way they knew how. You're saying because they're so close. That's how it was. It was because it was the eminence of being basically condescended to told their this, that, and the other.

Right. And they hear this, and they see immigration during what it's doing, and they know both parties don't care. But like me, you must meet millions of people who are saying, oh, thank you for not being either, for being, you know, sensibly about,

I think you're the most sensible person about everybody, but that's because we'd think alike. But even if people don't agree with us completely, they kind of get the, how far out the two wings are now. I mean, that's my hope for the new year, is that, you know, some of this is going to, there's got to be a backlash unless you think it's already happening. The midterms were incredibly encouraging in terms of people's sanity. You know, people made distinctions.

And they want to, they don't want to break the country apart. But they came to their senses about that. The midterms proved that they came to their senses about the right, which they did. Now we're saying we need some proof that you're going to come to your senses about the left. I think the threat of being cold, erasist, or big other transler or whatever, has such a power in the liberal mind, they're so terrified of that. That they can be so easily- You'll it, and it's like, look. You have to sometimes agree to be insane,

or sound insane, or else call the bigot, which is a crazy, it's like, oh, I'm sorry. I don't, you know what, I don't bend the knee. I normally just stay silent and just fucking deal with it. Right, let it go on. And like most people, you know, this, I, the teenage boys going through high school, getting taught all this stuff.

You know, the same ones are just saying, let it happen, let's just get on with our work. Let's fucking ignore this. Who are you gonna try and fuck this week? You know, there's also some part of human nature, I think, and I think this is what I try and do to say to myself in some ways is, look, I believe that human nature is pretty stable. I can recognize human behavior in Shakespeare's plays and in the ancient world and so on. And therefore, people call each other

Z-Jure and Tree if they want to. But essentially, people are not crazy. And essentially, in fact, they're all really too sexy. It's just the matter of time before they realize it. This stuff is just a weird fucking way of saying, you want to be a goth. This, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, just don't fucking put it all this post it.

And I'll fucking, I know. And because it don't fucking put it all this bullshit and I'll fucking move. And because it's usually to make it mandatory. Well, but, but I'm saying, where you went out, I gotta stop you. So, or else you'll get in trouble, but I, I've read this from you. So, I think you just left it out.

We are completely on the page that trans is a real thing. You, I said, right, okay. So, I've just include that or else you're good killed. I do, I believe in my core. Of course, I know I'm having you say it. Right, I, it's include that or else you get killed. I do. I believe in my course. I know I'm having you say it's a real thing real but rare. It's just that's really, I think you said it that way. It is real but rare and that's it's not a it's a real experience. It's a human experience. It's sometimes valid as a straight person, as a gay person. Exactly.

And no one should be discriminated against it. And if you're a don't have to be able to do whatever you want to do and we should respect that, we don't have to undo everything we understand about sex and gender to accommodate this. Right. We don't have to all pretend that we're some version of trans along the way because we're not. that were some version of trans along the way, because we're not, and it's, you know, and we're, you know, again, all our love, if you are,

but yeah, and especially with children, I mean, and again, I'm not like the last guy who should give a shit about children, but it just bugs me on a bullying level. So in the way they, I do, I think it's, there's something, look, if you go to Catholic elementary school, they will teach you, they won't teach you a quietness, It's, there's something, look, if you go to Catholic elementary school, they will teach you, they won't teach you a quietness,

but they will teach you, you know, Earth is created by God, there's a Trinity, it's very basic. I have that. And it's all kind of as your neighbor and all the rest of it. It's very basic. This is exactly the same way.

It is a kind of religious doctrine. Everything you see around you, there are no men and women, there are just bodies that you could ascribe different. And they're starting that that young and in public schools. I mean, come on. It's like crazy.

I mean, Jesus said that these kids are still learning that glue isn't food. Oh no. And what I worry about Bill is that, Jesus said that these kids are still learning that glue isn't food. No. And what I worry about Bill is that, and I hear that this is the very frustrating as a gay person, so you hear all this privately, all the fucking time. Thank you, or yeah, I'm really kind of nervous about this. I'm really freaks me out. I don't know what to say.

There are a lot of people that give you the line and a very upset you, even, but a lot of people are just like, oh, and also they're worried that the blowback is going to affect genuine tolerance of trans adults and gay people that we're beginning to get these very ugly strains coming out of the right. And you know, you want a legitimate thing like we'd like to slow down and make sure we're not overdoing, uh, medicalizing kids too soon and just hold on a bit to these red states banning any medical intervention whatsoever and also then banning any mention of it in school.

And it's just, it's as if you can't find this, this same way in the middle. I think it was you who's also made the point that to lump gay and trans together is just inherently unworkable because the essence of fighting for gay rights was always, we're born this way. Don't say it, we can be cured or that's insulting, which it is. We're born this way. Don't say it. We can be cured or that's insulting Which it is we're born this way Drens is the exact opposite you get to choose whatever you want the way we're born is so there's a Division within that block. I mean I get why the other thing is that that is always going to be a problem

Well, we the reason we're gay is because we are attracted to one sex rather than the other, right? And then we're back to fricking in the ass. Well, but that's binary. That's binary. Yeah, I know. And get rid of the binary. Yeah.

What the fuck happens with homosexuals? So then we get to the point where we get back to vaginas and azults. So people telling me I have to go down again on a vagina if I'm not to be a bigger, if the person is taking testosterone. What? It is, they now, the discrepancy. Big gay is now often, sometimes regarded

as what's called a bigoted genital preference. Seeing the gay is a bigoted genital preference. Saying the gay is a bigoted genital preference. I can't even follow this. Let me tell you what I'm going to fucking cut my fingers off. You you are someone is a woman who becomes a man, but he still has a vagina woman becomes a man. Has it. So they had on a penis.

No, they don't. I don't want penis. Okay. They, but you, but they, you meet them. You don't, and you decide you don't want to date them. Even though they have now, they have like beard or a mask and physique in some ways, because they build up their muscles with a test of pain.

No penis, actually no, not just a synonymous. And you're not allowed to not want someone who doesn't have a penis when you're gay. Yes. Well, yeah, I find that. That's where we are. I've gone from, I'm gone from, I was once told. It's just a preference. It's like, I like dick. Oh, Christ, I hope I don't

snip that out here. No, Mars says. No, but that's, it's, I can't even. No, I can't even, you were a big hit. You were a big it if you don't agree with that And I'm like, you know the last person told me I need to so so the agent fuck of a giant it was a priest before I Asked your point you're telling me this how I mean When does how does it end? How does that get rolled back to where that Stupidity becomes the marginalized belief. When it's the real, when really everyone is, like you said, in private, you can't, how do we do want to be in the position of saying to someone, I couldn't date you because you

have a vagina. I don't want to go with that into that. I mean, I don't want to have a vagina. You know, I can't date you. You don't know any human being on this earth. Any explanation for why you don't wanna date them. Most of them don't wanna date you either. There's always a certain pool of people

who would be interested in matter who you are. There's a lid for every pot. I've seen it in action. But you always should have that choice. Apps are fucking litly. And when I'm, there actually just, there's a whole,

it is about choice. It used to be, like I just said, the gay rights people was about liberation. This is about controlling people. And it's also controlling gay people. Gay men are being told, if you do not want to have sex with someone with a vagina, you're actually a bigot. And I've been told that myself, it's out there, it's not that common, but the sense that you can't discriminate that way. My view is the best thing anybody I've ever said to me growing up in gay was one of my friends in college. Actually, anyway, when I told him I was gay, he just said to me, well, you know, you can't

help what makes you hard. Oh, I'm going gonna put that on a pillow and have it somewhere here in Club random. I'll be at the Hard Rock Live in Sacramento, actually Wheatland, California, this Saturday, February 25th. March 11th, there'll be at Bally's Lake Tahoe. And Sunday, March 12th, the Golden Gate Theater

in San Francisco, I'm played actually the city of San Francisco in a long time. I'm really looking forward to that. But what do you have to plug, Andrew? You have a crazy good podcast. Yes, every week and you have this. You have a podcast every week, too. I couldn't live without you writing.

I really couldn't. I mean, even if I didn't know you personally or all this information about how you take it in the ass I I swear to God if it was just from your writing I would do anything for you to keep you in this world and keep you doing and you're so prolific too, you know, you put out a lot. Are you getting you get enough rest? Oh God. I'm turning into Ariana half a day I'm you're Ariana half a day. I am. Are you sleeping enough? I struggle. I you know, I

I don't have the strongest lungs. I'm not the strongest physically and I know I look good, but I do look good. Yeah, I'm doing I look at yeah, you know, um, you look like you could play the parts that Michael Chick-lis plays and I don't fuck with me. I'm like, right. And yeah, so I'm fine. You know, I'm fine. I'm good. So we celebrate my rest of my birthday with me here with Club Randa.

That's a fucking loop. This is the really nice. Of course, it's nice. Now the other guests will be arriving in moments. Fantastic. Randa. We also have to realize how you get married and we can both smoke weed. other guests will be arriving in moments. Fantastic. Rainbow. We also have to realize I get married and we can both smoke with you.

Well, we're not getting married. I told you. I don't marry. But I love you. I love you, too. Yeah, we just love without making it official. Who needs the piece of paper is what I say? Rainbow.

I'm very glad I'm here.