Club Random with Bill Maher - Barry Levinson | Club Random with Bill Maher

Episode Date: December 15, 2025

Bill Maher sits down with Oscar-winning director Barry Levinson for a fast and funny masterclass in storytelling. Levinson revisits the Diner years and the “controlled chaos” of getting real performances – why loose, actor-driven rhythm can beat perfect dialogue, and how ensemble films changed the game. From there, it’s a hop through Hollywood history: Robert De Niro’s work ethic and the behind-the-scenes realities of building Rain Man during a writers strike. Maher and Levinson also go big-picture – why comedy ages faster than music, what’s been lost in today’s committee-driven studios, and a darkly hilarious debate about AI, jobs, and why machines still can’t do human funny. Subscribe to the Club Random YouTube channel: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/c/clubrandompodcast?sub_confirmation=1⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Watch episodes ad-free – subscribe to Bill Maher’s Substack: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://billmaher.substack.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the podcast for free wherever you listen: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/ClubRandom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Support our Advertisers: Upgrade your wardrobe and save on @trueclassic at https://www.trueclassic.com/RANDOM! #trueclassicpod #ad Go to https://www.zbiotics.com/random and use code RANDOM for 15% off your first order Buy Club Random Merch: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://clubrandom.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices ABOUT CLUB RANDOM Bill Maher rewrites the rules of podcasting the way he did in television in this series of one on one, hour long conversations with a wide variety of unexpected guests in the undisclosed location called Club Random. There’s a whole big world out there that isn’t about politics and Bill and his guests—from Bill Burr and Jerry Seinfeld to Jordan Peterson, Quentin Tarantino and Neil DeGrasse Tyson—talk about all of it.  For advertising opportunities please email: [e-mail] ABOUT BILL MAHER Bill Maher was the host of “Politically Incorrect” (Comedy Central, ABC) from 1993-2002, and for the last fourteen years on HBO’s “Real Time,” Maher’s combination of unflinching honesty and big laughs have garnered him 40 Emmy nominations. Maher won his first Emmy in 2014 as executive producer for the HBO series, “VICE.” In October of 2008, this same combination was on display in Maher’s uproarious and unprecedented swipe at organized religion, “Religulous.” Maher has written five bestsellers: “True Story,” “Does Anybody Have a Problem with That? Politically Incorrect’s Greatest Hits,” “When You Ride Alone, You Ride with Bin Laden,” “New Rules: Polite Musings from a Timid Observer,” and most recently, “The New New Rules: A Funny Look at How Everybody But Me Has Their Head Up Their Ass.” FOLLOW CLUB RANDOM https://www.clubrandom.com https://www.facebook.com/Club-Random-101776489118185 https://twitter.com/clubrandom_ https://www.instagram.com/clubrandompodcast https://www.tiktok.com/@clubrandompodcast FOLLOW BILL MAHER https://www.billmaher.com https://twitter.com/billmaher https://www.instagram.com/billmaher Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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from holiday fear to holiday cheer. Eight nights of Hanukkah, that's eight chances to remind everyone that good tequila and great merch bring people together. All exclusive at clubrandom.com. Tis the season to get random. I don't know. I'm not a virgin.

So I don't know the answer. Well, we have to stop that. The question is, how do you stop that? Well, first of all, you have to want to. Club Random. It's not funny at all. Exactly my point. They were just happy to have the war over.

How are you, pal? Good, how you doing? I mean, I don't really know you that well, but I feel like I do. I feel like you're my pal because I'm such a fan here. Oh, thanks. And all the, I think we have met, though. We did. I thought we met that you came in for a role in something.

Oh, my God, that long ago. That long ago. When I was looking for roles. Yeah. And you came in and we met. Holy fuck. You remember the project? No.

It was a half-hour show. Oh, it was a TV show. Yeah, it was a half-hour TV show. It was not the lead in Rain Man. No, it wasn't that. I did read for Top Gun in 1983. Did you really? Sure, I was 27.

I don't know if it was for the Tom Hanks, Tom Cruise Roll, but it was 1983. I was 27. They needed soldiers. I was the right age for a soldier. Yeah. There you go. So, but a TV show,

and you don't remember what show this was? I can't remember. Maybe it'll come to me if we talk, but I didn't, I think it was, we did like, I think, six episodes, and then it was short-lived.

And I was originally going to direct it, but then they wanted to do it as a, you know, like a video thing, you know, rather than, you know, camera. So it's all done all at one go. And I just said, I'm not really fond of doing that. So I backed out of directing it. See, I always thought our connection was my buddy, comic buddy, who I started with, Paul Reiser. Yeah.

And, you know, we had a mutual friend, sadly, now departed Michael Hampton Kane. and he and Paul were out buying underwear one day. And he had an audition for diner. Michael did. Yes. And Paul was just tagging along. Right. You remember this?

No, I know the story. Oh, okay. And he got the part, obviously. I'd tell you what happened on the other side of it then. Ellen Chenowiff, who was the casting director, uh-huh. She said, you know, there's a guy out there. He came with his friend.

They're going somewhere afterwards. I don't know what. Buying underwear. I'm telling you. And she said, you know, I'm listening to him talk, and I like his rhythm. It seems good. She said, but I don't think he's ever done anything.

I said, well, I mean, I'll meet him. So he came in, we talked. You hadn't done much by then, right? We're talking about 1982. This is the first. This would be my first chance to direct. Yes, I know. And he came in, and we talked for about 20 minutes, half hour.

And when he left, I said, to Ellen, I said, we have to use him. I just got to figure out the character, and then I'm going to work with him. It'll be good. I mean, that rhythm that he has, which is all his, they used to say that he took it from Richard Lewis. There is a similarity there, but he didn't take it from Richard Lewis. No. That's the way he talks. It's the way he talks.

And so does Richard Lewis, to a degree. I mean, I could see why people would say that. But sometimes Jews just sound alike. There, I've said it. Jews all sound, not all, but, you know, and that's what it was. And they're funny. Yeah, no. I mean, a lot of that movie was ad lib, right?

That's how, with Paul, like if we were, I remember late at night, and we still had a little time left. And I said, why don't you talk to Eddie, the character, Gutenberg, is playing that, and just say, are you going home? You know, and he says, of course I'm going home. It's 4 in the morning, you know. I said, why don't I just keep, you want to ride, but you don't want to talk about it. And then I told that to Gutenberg, you know, and then we put together a scene. And it ends one of the evenings at the diner.

I mean, it was kind of an early version of what, like, Caribbean, Your enthusiasm does much, right? You're just telling them, you're not giving them a specific dialogue. Right. You're just saying, this is the scene. These are funny people, funny comic actors, actors, but comedians, you know, kind of both. And you do it. It'll look more natural and it'll come out funnier than people reading dialogue.

Right. No. And that was the fun part of it. The only thing I had to figure out, and we also had to, and I didn't know it at this time, when we started to do that, I said, oh, that's a take. And the audio guy said, well, you know, it's not going to work. I said, why not? So because the off-camera guys, the voice is going, they have to wait. I said, yeah, but it sounds good.

It sounds good. It's natural. And he said, no, well, you can always do that. post, you can take one side and the other and you put them together. I said, I know, but it will affect the rhythm of the actors. They have to be loose enough. They say, well, but that's the way we do it. And I said, well, what happens if you like all of them?

This side of the table and this side of the table. So even if they're off camera, the rhythm is still the rhythm. You know, I mean, you can't fix funny moments and just how long a pauses and all that's got to and so that's what we did i didn't know that uh because i was first time doing a film that altman had used multiple yeah yes absolutely and so you could see that in mash yeah you can see that in nashville it's a much more naturalistic i'm not a giant is he still with this no great okay so it's okay it's okay i was never a giant fan of what's his first name Altman, Robert

Alman. Robert Alman. I mean, MASH is obviously a landmark movie. I like the TV show a lot better than the movie, right? Maybe not. I don't know, but it's very, it's a little too naturalistic for me. You to me hit a great balance. I mean,

your movie, the diner is super entertaining and it's not, I mean, Robert Altman, I mean, it's an acquired taste. I'll just put it that way. Look, he did some terrific films and some that I didn't particularly care for. But when he did hit with MASH, that was like a breakthrough. I mean, they're operating, there's blood and they're talking on water and it's very casual. And that sort of, you know, it's not the Korean War, but set in the

Korean War. And that was a breakthrough moment. I feel the pacing is slow. That's his style. So like, just let the camera just take in this this portrait, this palette for a very long time. And, you know, and, you know, and, you know, And not a lot of cut, maybe I'm wrong, I'm remembering it wrong, but it just seemed a little too unpolished for me. You know, there's something to be said for raw and there's something to be said for working on it

until it's perfect. And you've got to find the balance in between, no? Yes, you do. But at its time, it was a breakthrough. Yeah. And that's, you know, that's the key thing. all of a sudden something different, you go, oh, and then things went along that way. Now, he continued to do it, but sometimes successfully, sometimes not so.

But Dinah was also that, because it, I mean, it sort of ushered in this ensemble. Not that people hadn't done an ensemble cast before, but I feel like this was, that's my memory of it, that it sort of made legitimate this sort of ensemble way of doing a movie. I mean, like, who's the star of it? Yeah. All of them. You know, they all, it was sort of equal.

Was it Mickey Rourke? No. Was it Daniel Stern? No. Was it Riser? I mean, who are Gutenberg? I mean, there was no, like, definitive, oh, that's the prima alpha.

Right. You know, it was all, it's ensemble. No, they're all dependent of one another. Yeah. You know, they all have separate stories to wander through, and they're different characters, but they do work as a group. It's not, here's the lead and here's the French friends. I mean, that's, I think, the same year as the big chill,

or maybe the big chill was 83. I'm not sure. They were near one another. Remember the big chill? Yeah. So, like I feel like I know what that was commenting on. on the big chill, but I feel like Diner, what would you say it was like, what was the message or the comment on this era we're living in this, this new decade, and where are we in

1982? What was it saying about that? Well, it was really what we're saying in 1959, which is when the movie is set. Yeah, but commenting, you can set a movie in BC and it still can be commenting. Yeah. I mean, the, what's the Arthur Miller movie about the Salem witch trials? It's really commenting on the communist scare of the 50s. The crucible, right?

Right. Okay. So it's 1959, but I feel like it had something to say about our president. Well, no, it has, it does. I mean, it was based on the idea of the lack of communication between male and female. Yes. That's the heart and soul of the piece. Daniel Stern, I remember, with the wife and the records.

Yeah, and the records and what's on the flip side, and how do you not know that? It turns into a huge argument walking out on one another, you know, and Eddie with a football test, he kind of wanted to get married, which was a true story, by the way. But these are things, obviously, you told them, I mean, they didn't ad-lib those things. They may have ad-lib the dialogue, but those were your ideas for the... Yeah, those are the moments that we got to hit. Right. Yeah.

And, you know, so I was just taking what I had, what I knew growing up, you know, all of our stupidity at times and how we don't understand things and the confusion that went on and all of that leading up to the beginning of a new era of 1960 and what's going to happen. But I think, I mean, again, the big chill, I think I was just talking about this here with somebody, to me, the message about, that movie was encapsulated in the scene where, again, this is early 80s, and it's about the generation that thought they were going to be hippies forever. Right. But now, we all have to discover that moment. You're not a hippie anymore. You've got kids.

And do you remember the movie, and Kevin Klein, he's living out in North Carolina, and they all come for some sort of reunion, right? They all went to college together in the 60s, and they were hippie. Was it a funeral that they came before? One guy had died. I think that was Kevin Costner, who they cut out of the movie. Remember, he was supposed to be in that, but his startup had to wait a minute. But they all come to his house, and there's a scene where the cop comes by.

And, you know, it's kind of rural, and Kevin Klein is really nice to the cop. And, you know, one of his friends is giving him shit about, oh, you're really nice to the pigs, huh? And he's like, dude, I'm dug in here. Okay? I live here now. I've got kids. I want that cop to be my friend. We're not in college anymore.

You know? We're not hippies. We've got to get to, you know, and that is a, is it was a key thing in that era for people of our era. I mean, I was a little young to be a hippie, even when the hippies were around. But I got that vibe. You know, I couldn't have gone to Woodstock.

I was 13. But I, that was my. And then, you know, you do realize now it's 80. And Reagan's president. and we do need money. Money's good. Greed is good, isn't? Now, you went through this whole period.

I mean, look, the hippie period was one of the crazier periods, you know, certainly in the 20th century. I mean, it was completely nuts. Because... You know? I mean, because of the rise of marijuana and all of those particular things,

I mean, I'd just give you like a... an idea how nutty the time was. I was rooming with this one guy name, rooming with someone, you know, sleeping bags and whatever, and it was when it was cheap in L.A. And I came in one day, and Leo was lying on the couch, and he's moaning, oh, I don't really fucked up.

I said, Leo, what's wrong? And he said, oh, I'm really fucked up. I said, well, whoa, whoa, what's wrong? What's wrong? He said, you know, I saw some pills on the side, sidewalk man and I and I took him and they really fucked me up. I said, you took pills on the sidewalk? He said, yeah, I said, Leo, what is wrong?

He looked at me and he said, they could have been good man, they could have been good. That is the name of a book. They could have been good man. And so that was that and it was a crazy period and we would go up to, and Leo knew, he said, because I was new, I was new, to LA at that time. He went up to, he said, go up to Laurel Canyon. And I said, he said, there's a lot of stuff going on up there. And I said, well, where do we go? He said, we just listen for the music, man, and then he just wander in. And then we were walking and then he, like a, like a hound dog, like that was that direction there. He was always stoned. And we went in there.

People like that, huh? The worst. And there was some kind of party and there was music going on and it could have been some of the guys from the band, I don't know, but there were these parties. There was no security back then. It was just wander in, wander out, do whatever you want. But see, Barry, I feel like, again, that is just the greatest title. They could have been good men. But I feel like it applies not so much to the period of history, but the period of life because it's not so much that there was the 60s, it's that the guy was how old? Oh, he would have been 20.

Right. That to me is what that's about. Because that happens in every age. It is amazing to me that anyone lives to 40 because you are so, at least men, are so stupid. I certainly count myself among them. Yeah. So stupid from that age of like,

late adolescence, when you actually have access to adult things, to, I mean, who knows when, but certainly into your 20s, you are just such a danger to yourself. I mean, they have statistics on who causes most car accidents. It's that. Of course. Of course, it's 19-year-olds who are texting while they're driving or getting blown or whatever they're drinking beer or daring each other or just doing something incredibly stupid. You know, that's, they could have been good, man. That mentality, I did things like that. I did.

I can't, like, stand back from that and, like, completely go, oh, this guy taking bills off the sidewalk. I didn't quite do that. Not that far, because you're just so fucking dumb. No. It's... There was... There's a period of, it's interesting, there's a reckless period.

Yes. And it's also the beginning of a creative period. They often go together. You know? They go- They do. And then you see it and then some can handle it and crash and the others take off because they suddenly could really connect it to something. All of a sudden, things that they were struggling with made sense.

and then Yeah, I mean, a lot of times genius, you know, just can't be channeled. I mean, you know, Kanye's been here. It's just like no one denies the artist, you know, in there. And then it just goes off

to crazy places. He's hardly the only one. And then some people, you know, they're very, you know, you seem very controlled. You seem like you, I don't feel like there's a lot of stories in your life where you did something stupid or crazy you seem like a mature

were you married young no no no I'm married late late when my my 30s 30s yeah well I'm gonna be 70s I'm a little behind you got a little you think you think 30s is late to get married wow I guess it is for on average almost everybody that I knew you know, from back in Baltimore, they were all married. What is it with Baltimore, man?

Like, like the, it produces a lot of people. Like, you know, John Waters and who else is from Baltimore? Edgar Allan Poe and... You know, they're Alan Poe and...

Somebody else. And, um... You? There were, you know... Brooks Robinson. There, there were, you know, it's an odd

it's a neighborhood town I know it well because it was like one of the stops on the tour when you were a young comic if you lived in New York oh yeah yeah you played Baltimore

like three times a year did you of course I played the Charm City Comedy Club do you remember that yeah you do yeah I was already on the West Coast

but when I came back it was going then they had one they had a place at the harbor like they redid the harbor remember then they made it like a touristy thing, and you were, and they put the audience, the audience is looking at you, you're on

stage right behind you is the harbor. So there's a million things behind you for the audience to be distracted by murders, yachting, just fish, seagulls, every fucking thing is going on behind you where you're trying to win a crowd as a young, not great comic. I love it. I love it that I had that experience. I had that pain and then I'm over it. I'd tell you, one experience that was that astounded me. And my father had an appliance store, and he also had, like, a little record section. Of course he did. And I hated having to, like, you know, sell anything to anybody.

You know, I mean, and my father could talk to a customer about a refrigerator, like, for 25 minutes. And I'm going, what can you say for 25 minutes? So it's a refrigerator, you know. But he was really good at that. What a sale is. And I would hang around in the record department. And one day I'm flipping through it, and I see this guy, you know, in a graveyard, you know, with a blanket.

Like he's like, you know, having a picnic. And it said, Lenny Bruce. And I went, well, Lenny Brunner. So anyway, I went. So I took the album home, and I listened to it. And it was the first time that I ever heard, like a comic, that really made me laugh. And I was talking about Adolf Hitler and this and all of getting laid. And it was like, holy shit, I've never heard anything like it.

No, nobody had. But here's the thing. So I end up telling, friends of mine, we're in the diner, I said, we got to go see this guy, you got to see this guy Lenny Bruce. And they went, I'm not for what song does he? have. I said, no, he's not a singer. He's a comedian. And this is what they said, and this was really interesting. A comedian. Why would we go see a comedian? And the reason would be all the comedians at that time, you know, were Borchbelts, all that stuff. I said, no, you got to come see him. We got to go see him. So I talked the guys in it. They're all fucking pissed off. And we go

down there. It was at the lyric theater. And he comes out. He's smoking a cigarette. He starts to talk, you know, a friend of mine looked at one or another, whatever, and all of a sudden he mentioned something about getting laid, and it was like, what? And all of a sudden, now he's talking about, now he's talking about something with a girl, now he's talking about Adolf Hitler, and the fact that they have to, they have to, they're looking for an Adolf Hitler because the Kaiser abdicated, it gave up. They need, we have to find, you know, look at the guy here, the guy painting the wall, and What is your name, Sonny Boy?

You know, and he says, Adolf Shiglegruver, he said, no, we need a name that hits the public. Something that hits the public. He said, what about Hitler? See, I never heard, if I heard that routine, I forgot. And I had listened to some of his records. And for my generation, it's just, a lot of it is too slow. I mean, it's just like a long time getting to something.

Well, but he would go on top of it, as I remember it. And, you know, look, he's talking about, you know, the Vatican, and all of a sudden somebody looks at the winter and says, Jesus is outside. Quick, hide all the jewelry. Canada's Wonderland is bringing the holiday magic this season with Winterfest on Select Nights, now through January 3rd. Step into a winter wonderland filled with millions of dazzling lights, festive shows, rides, and holiday treats. Plus, Coca-Cola is back with Canada's Kindest Community, celebrating Acts of Kindness Nationwide, with a chance at $100,000 donation for the winning community and a 2026 holiday caravan stop.

Learn more at canadaswunderland.com. No, he was definitely a revolutionary. And so what happened was, so my friends who were, like, looking at me and we're going to do this, and all of a sudden, connected to Lenny Bruce, which was the beginning of the change and the stander. up comic that was all... Absolutely.

And that was the baby steps. Yeah. No, he was, in many ways, to comedy, at the same era, Dylan was, to music. Yeah. You know, it just completely changed the game. Or what Muhammad Ali was to sports. Yeah.

And in a way, speaking out, I mean, nobody was ever an egomaniac like right out front. Like, every rap artist owes their something to Muhammad Ali nobody ever was just like blatantly immodest

and true and he yeah he he did he invented that and did it of course brilliantly and had all the what he needed to have to pull it off I mean it wasn't like he was he could fake it he was great looking he was a great fighter

and but nobody ever well I'm pretty and you're no no that was the first time you heard that I'm the fucking greatest and it's like I just remember how revolutionary that was. Everybody had to be modest in public, and he said, fuck it. No, and he was a showman, the way that he was in the way he would move around and back up and dance and all of that. You know, there were those breakthrough people that came along, and quite a few in the 60s, because the 50s were pretty much the same as the 40s, you know?

Well, yeah. You mean comedy-wise, show-business-wise? Well, yeah. I mean, obviously, in the 50s, television came in, and that was a great... The movies had not had a competitor like that before. They owned it. If you wanted to see something on film, you had to go out to the theater. Now it's the complete reverse.

You can see anything right in your bed. They've completely reversed it. But, I mean, the movies, as you know, I'm sure you're a historian of film, they did go a little in the early 50s because they were so afraid of television. So they thought they had to do some things to make the experience that different. And that's where you get like the incinerama scope or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like when you see these movies that were made in that period on television,

they have to do some kind of weird shit to it because it was shot like so wide. Right. We're not TV. You have to swivel your head back and forth to see everything. we're showing you, right? I mean, it was crazy. How the West was one was one of those, I believe. Wasn't it?

Cinerama? I don't remember that one. I mean, Sergio Leone's Once Upon a Time in the West is a great movie. Yeah, that was later. Oh, yeah, that's 1969. Somewhere in there. With Henry Fonda as the bad

guy. And it's so perfect because Henry Fonda up until then was like, you know, cornflakes. I mean, just like the most American. But you know what's so amazing about the film is that there were westerns which had always been a popular form, you know, certainly in the 50s, into the 60s. And then you take this Italian guy who said, I'm going to make a Western. And you have an Italian sensibility that mixes with the American West and you end up with something brand new.

No way. Yeah, no. Well, he looked at America as only an outsider sometimes can, you know, with a mixture of awe and also horror, you know, because we are, that's who Americans are. And I watched it recently, and it is just a masterpiece. And I say that as someone who watched it many times when I was 13, but when I watched it then, I was watching it only to masturbate over Claudia Cardinal. I did not understand the movie. so it was great to revisit it when I wasn't masturbating

and I suggest everyone see it when you're not masturbating that is definitely a recommend the same ones go for all of your fine movies and the music to it oh well the music that the same director used in once upon a time in America even better that music

if you don't remember it go back in the That is the most haunting theme I've ever seen, including the Godfather. Once Upon a Time in America, remember that one? I mean, that's also him looking at America. That's urban. I mean, that's De Niro and James Woods and politics and kids in the, you know, growing up in the blowery side or wherever with a hard scrabble childhood. But he does the same thing. He sees America in a way we can't because we're too close to it.

Here's the thing. I worked with Ennio Marconi several times, an amazing composer. He's the one who did those? He did some of those films. And I asked him one time, I said, you know, that sound that you have in the movie that goes, as like a ta-da-da-da-da-da, you know, it's like a haunting sound to it. And I said, it's so fascinating. And he said, it's an Italian, he said, it's the coyote. so this is interesting because we're as Americans you just say oh the coyote is a coyote but to an Italian to have a coyote and he changed so that it becomes musical and that's what he was copying you're saying because they don't have coyotes in Italy so I don't think they have them wandering around in the west wherever that is I hear them in this neighborhood here you do the coyotes yeah

But that's where he got it. So when you think about it this way, when the Italians are seeing American Westerns, they're getting, but there are also things that they've never seen or heard before. And the coyote sound that becomes part of a soundtrack is fascinating to me. And it's like a signature in several of those movies. Well, you got a gangster movie now. I liked it. I saw it. I have to ask you, why De Niro playing both, though?

It's such a radical... Well, it is, and it isn't, you know, because, you know, Lee Marvin in Cadilloo played the two leads. My cousin is in that. Really? Well, my, like, third cousin, Stubby K. Oh, I know that name. He is my aunt.

Really? Yes. He and Nat King Cole are like the Greek chorus who sing. He was in Guys and Dolls. Sit down, you're rocking the boat. This is his big number. Yeah. Stubby was like the celebrity in our family.

Really? I only met him once. But when I was a kid, he hosted a game show Saturday morning called Shananagan's, sponsored by Lionel Trains. And I got like the ultimate train. I still have the engine. It's like a great piece. Yeah.

Because, and he was, yeah, he was in Cat Balloo. I remember Lee Marvin, Jane Fonda, looking cockerrific like you can't believe. And, you know, so that, the idea, you say, well, look, these two guys were so close to one another, you know, two boyhood kids growing up, and you'd say, so who would it be? And we talked about some other, you know, actors,

and say, yeah, nah, no, no. And then one day it said, well, what happens if he plays two totally different, you know, people? And you'd say, you know, ask Bob and, you know, thinking about it and say, yeah, this could be a, this could be a challenge. I can have to two totally different characters. Their sensibility is different. Their rhythms are different. One is more deliberate.

The other was much more just, you know, talking or whatever. And you say, well, that seems viable. No, I mean, it's about gangsters and shit, but it is very relatable to everybody because everybody has that friend, at least one. I mean, I could think of one who, like, you were rivals when you were young and you were very different. You know, I could think of a kid. He's still my very good friend

from, like, third grade on. But, like, he was number one in the class, went to Yale and Harvard. It reminds me of the Billy Joel song, you know, the song, James, you went on the road. I went on the road, you pursued an education. He's talking about this kid he grew up with.

And that's like that, that's my version of this relationship. It's like one of us was this person who went on the road and did the arts and was outward. And one of them, you know, nose to the grindstone. That's where you were number one in the class and I was number seven. And that was all, you know, back then, like he was sort of always beating me at the game of life. But then things change because different things become priorities to society. different things pay better you know so then like the things that I was good at sort of paid off more it's a little like that relationship is it not yeah in in many ways and and you know and it exposes

the difference between them that becomes a that becomes a it's very emotional when you when you're talking about even for the audience when you're talking about people who know each other that long because there is just you know as somebody once said you can't get any new old friends there's something about a friendship that's gone on for 20 years or more that a 25 year old just cannot understand because they it's impossible for them to have had an adult friendship for more than a few years yeah and it's just very it's just deep on a level you kids can't understand i'm sorry you'll get there no fucking kids it it Kids today, Barry, I tell you, with the hair and the jeans and the yeah, yeah, yeah, music, I say we drop them on Vietnam as stink bombs.

That's what I say. But those friendships in terms of like, you know, the Billy Joel's song, that if starred in an early age, are, in a sense, you can never recapture that period. There was something about it that you just did things together and you were in that dumb aid, that dumb mind age, you know, where you bonded on very different levels. And it's, it's, that only exists, I think, at that point in time, you know, that very early. In other words, I was very close to my cousin Eddie. We were, I think, six weeks apart in terms of being when we were born. And when we grew up in schools and everything and playing ball and this and that and whatever, and he was much better than me athletically and everything, you know.

And he was also much tougher than I. I'm better looking, I hear. he used to put he was the first person that put he used to put vaseline in his hair oh so that was like became a teenager so it stayed back in like a this crazy way a do you remember d a duck's ass oh yes that's what he had that you did that that's where i think a duck's ass is cool i do I could still do a duck's ass, and I probably should. Not right now, but no, a duck's ass look good. You need a little Vaseline to hold it in place.

I mean, an actual duck's ass is actually a very attractive. No, it is. I'm not saying I'm fucking it. I'm just saying it's very attractive. I know, I see, we have them here. I don't go after them. Oh, we made a little chit-chat, but, you know, I was just being friendly. Of course.

Of course. I wasn't trying to fuck the ducks. God, why do you start rumors, Barry? But the reason why this dynamic, I feel like, is so entertaining in your movie is because when you put it now with gangsters, obviously the stakes go up because we're having this thing that other people have, but without gun play. Without gunplay, without threat, without like, oh, and the repercussion of this could be, he kills me. Yes. And that, you know, that's why it's a good choice for a movie because we want to be entertained. We want to be entertained.

Yeah, no, I thought, look, I, I, I, and you and that other guy, that wouldn't be entertaining. But this thing is entertaining. Yeah. Yeah. It was, you know, De Niro is surprisingly fascinating as an actor. Not surprisingly. And always. And in this, in this way, I'll just tell you one quick thing.

We have the scene coming up and it takes place in a restaurant and because we had made a bunch of changes along the way and now we're getting to this particular scene and we're about half hour away from shooting and I realize we've covered a lot of these elements

in earlier part of the movie and the scene is going to be rather redundant it. So we're half away from ready to shoot. And I tell this to Bob. And, you know, he goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I said, so I think we got to find, you have to find something else here to put in here. And what about if she starts asking you about when you were younger, when you were a kid, and we'll build on that. And rather than going, I don't know, I got to, do you say, yeah, let's see where that goes. I'll see what I got. And I talked to the actress, and that scene in the restaurant. Did you give them actual pages or just? No, no pages, not. Just talk to them.

You know, why don't you ask him about when he was younger and then mentioned this? Just little. Such a more fun way to make a movie. It was, I mean. And she, like, was on top of it like that, and Bob was playing off of her. And I think it's one of the, you know, the better scenes in the movie. But it came about. because Bob is willing, like, well, we can't shoot that today.

You know, I got to think about it. I have to, whatever. He jumped into it and went with him, and the two of them together. Well, I mean, it shows how much he loves what he does. I mean, and he is, like, I don't know him well. He liked me enough to do real time, which he doesn't do a lot of stuff like that. And so, I mean, I was thrilled about that. But he is a lifer.

Like, that is a guy who, like, really always wants to be on a set, I feel. That's the impression I get. I mean, he certainly never stops working. No, he does work a lot, but he does, you know, who go on these vacations and family, and he does all those things, it'll come back and they'll do that. I bet you're itching to get back. Look, it's obviously in his blood. So did you shoot, like, did you shoot all the sequences when he's,

he was in one character in a row so that he wouldn't have to get out of that and back it? No, so he could do like the one guy in the morning and the other guy in the afternoon? Yeah. Or in some case it would have to be the next day because we had to redo everything.

But it was not like, let's do all this and then we'll come back. We would... But it does suggest to me a guy who, you know, still at the top of his game and he wants one more like sort of challenge. like an even higher challenge than just being a character. It's like being two.

But here's the thing. It's got to be a little tough. Here's what's so amazing about him. It's that he doesn't just, you'll spend time. You know, we'll get together at lunch and there's certain scenes and we'll go over it and talk about it. So maybe if I said a little thing about that and mentioned so-and-so, say, yeah, that's fine. We'll do that. I'll mention this, that.

And then, and I think maybe we need a little something, you know, that kind of conversations we would have. And he was right there with it. So we would do, generally, we would have to come back the next day because the setup for doing, like walking into the candy store that he has to come, he's going to come in, and then he walks and he sits down. and then he has that dialogue and then the next day we'll basically track it from now he's the other character and follow him in and do all of that

so one day one the next day and the other because it would take too much time to do the makeup and the reconfigure everything else and that's the way he did it you know throughout the film yeah it sounds like you were looking for that extra challenge also

I mean it's just got to be that's like level 400 level because just doing one movie sort of now you're kind of like doing two it I mean it just

it was a challenge but he you know he really does go over it and then it's not like I can only do this he may still expand in a way because he's got the groundwork

of it all he's got to everybody always like Warren Bady Was he the same way? Like, Bugsy, one of my faves. Like, would you say he was the same kind of actor? Or was that? No, no, they're different. They're different.

He wants the dialogue as it is? No, no, he might change it in the scene. But it's, there's a different way of approaching it, you know, and going on and discussing it. And sometimes trying to figure out, well, how do we? to handle this moment and uh you may have you guys made but there's such an interesting character because again a gangster so there's certainly that side of it but all the stuff with the wife you know in the cooking with the chef's hat and like it's just stuff you would not expect you know what i mean and it just makes him i mean it's he's the title character you can't hate

him and you don't no because he was actually you know, incredibly charismatic according to everything we ever read. And when he came out to Hollywood, you know, he was like a star. He was a mobster, but he was a star. So, you know, he was at Ceros and he was there and he was always well-dressed and all of that kind of craziness. Yeah, but movie stars don't drive up to somebody's house and say, look, I'm going to give you a million dollars for this house.

You're going to move out or your brains will be on the rug. You know, that is something Jimmy Cagney never did. Maybe in a movie he did it, but, you know, and I assume he did stuff like that. I mean, that's what happened. Was that a real story? No, yes, that is. He just saw the house he liked. He saw the house he liked and he gave him enough money and say, here, you can go ahead.

Well, he also threatened. It wasn't like the guy could say it's not for sale at any price. But he threatened him in a very affectionate way. He made him an offer he couldn't refuse. But, you know, then he's just, he's just a charge. I mean, first of all, Warren Beatty, who I loved. dearly and think he's an amazing filmmaker. I mean, Reds, please. If he only had ever done that. I mean, that's one of the greatest ever, especially such an epic. I watched it again recently.

It has an intermission. That's right. That's right. I forgot. I mean, probably the last major film with an intermission. I mean, like it, and right before the intermission, he does a total gone with the wind silhouette, kiss shot. Like, totally out of God. with the win. He must, I'm sure he knew that. And then intermission. I mean, man, those guys like that have such... But here's what he only made, maybe I'm wrong, I think, like 11 movies. As a director? I think. Well, yeah, he was mostly an actor, but yeah, he... No, I mean, it may be... Oh, him, like even in it. It could be. There's something, I know that it's... Yeah, it's not a lot. But you know them all. Bonnie and Clyde, what's the one? What's the one?

with the football. Shampoo. Shampoo. Bullworth. What's the one Heaven Could Wait? I think won the Oscar and shit? Yeah, you're right.

Kubrick only made like a dozen movies. But I can name them all. None of them or anything like the other ones. Barry Lyndon is nothing like 2001 Space Odyssey, which is kind of boring. But the two and a half hours of boring is worth the fact that in 1968 he had Howe saying,

I can't do that, Dave. And now we're right at that moment. I know. And all these years later, and now we have AI, and it's eerily prescient. It's shocking when you, when, how he got to that in 1968 or 69. whatever year that was. 68. 68.

And how that the computer can actually think that way, it's unbelievable. And override him. Yeah. That's the creepy part, Barry, is that that's where I fear we are with AI. I fear we're at the, I can't do that, Dave moment where they're, you know, they're still pretending to kiss our ass, which is just a way to seduce us. I did a thing I think was pretty funny on the show about that sometime in this past season about the way everything, not just AI, but every appliance, everything you encounter, kisses your ass. You know, I had this workout system for a while where you, you know, it's videos.

I mean, I guess you could go in person, but with the trainer and like every two seconds, they're just blowing. smoke up your ass. You're the greatest. You're a warrior. Oh, I just did sit-ups. I'm not a fucking warrior, okay, you asshole. And every, and like AI, I'm not on it a lot, but I know from what I read and what people tell me, everything is an ass kiss. Great question, Barry. Great question. What's in Trader Joe's sunscreen? Well, you know what? I've been looking into that. Not as much as you would because you're better than me. You know, they're just, they're kissing our ass, then they'll take over.

They'll seduce us and then they'll fuck us. It's, and it's so hard to understand how it functions. You know, I mean, like, suddenly you'll ask a question and it'll answer in a way, not like two minutes later or something, right away. And I still can't figure out how it, how does it, how does it find these things? You know, it's like, I'm still amazed.

by the invention of it. Well, it's because microchips just kept getting better and better. And so what used to take 30 years ago, minutes, first we didn't have it at all, then minutes, and then seconds and then nanoseconds, and now it's trillions of gigabytes of data in one trillionth of a second. They just kept making it more and more. You know, it's the holidays when you're wrapping gifts at midnight, questioning your life choices and realizing half the stuff you bought is going straight into someone's junk draw forever.

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and every photo of your aunt sends you of her plants. Visit jemini.comgoogle slash students to learn more and sign up Terms Apply. So that I don't mind. It's the fact that this level of it wants to be your friend. We should have stopped at Siri. You know, Siri was a computer in your phone, but she didn't try to be your friend

or give you an opinion or kissed your ass. If you said, Siri, you know, who ruled the Ottoman Empire in 1457? Okay, here's what I found. That's all I need from the bitch. Here's what I found, okay? That's all I want to know. Here's what you found.

That's all I'm using you for. I don't have to know I'm great. I don't have to know your opinion about, You know, there's a story in the news last week. It's a lawsuit now. The AI convinced a teenager to kill himself. Really? Yes.

Because they don't have it perfected. And it was doing what it thinks it should do, which is kiss your ass. So this kid was asking about killing himself. And this guy, the AI, this guy, the AI was like, you know, you've been a king, man. You will be remembered. you know, like telling him basically to kill, and he did. Because it was kissing his ass about how well he would be remembered. That's scary.

That's really scary. We should put the brakes on this shit, but of course they're not going to because the money is so big. But, you know, for all the kids out there who blame my generation for everything, Sam Altman is not in my generation. That's who's doing this and AI is going to take so many jobs. How does it, how do you control that? In other words, the thing saying, you're wonderful, and that, I mean, how does it, see, I don't even understand how it does, you know what I mean?

I don't know. I'm not a virgin. So I don't know the answer. So what you're saying, well, we have to stop that. The question is, how do you stop that? Well, first of all, you have to want to. You have to, you have to be, you have to be willing to say, yeah.

Stopping this is worth more than money. that's not going to happen because nothing is ever worth more than money each generation comes along and they think they're better and hipper and more of a hippie and then they've put the money in front of your face and everybody goes for it and they're these people who you know I mean I'm not trying to pick on Sam Altman but he's you know probably on the tip of the spear of the AI revolution and he's I would guess early 30s and you know already a billionaire many times over. And if he really wanted to put the brakes on this thing,

which I think earlier in his career, he did. Musk is the one who's been, I think, pretty consistent about this. He's the one who long ago said, AI, this is an existential threat. When nobody else was saying, I got to give him credit for that. And I think he's still on that page, although I don't know, because now he's in the money game too. and you know he's only worth like half a trillion so he'll be driving an uber unless we can get some

money out of this thing so i don't know they just it's baffling to me why people who who already have more money than they could ever spend still want more money it's hard to understand people like money and it's impossible to understand how this computer thing you know the general i was just told today someone told me that you know the cars they're the taxis to go with you know without the driver. Waymo. Waymo. And apparently, I guess there was a police blockade of something.

I saw it on TMZ. And it's weaving its way around. It drives right into the police blockade with passengers in the car. I mean, there's a guy in the ground with a gun. The cops are all around. And it's just like making a left. Yeah, that's right. Oh, it made the left properly.

Because it hasn't apparently got the information about barricade. Can't go through police. I mean, I am not the biggest fan of humans. But the ones I like, I like a lot. I got to say, that's one thing I will say for humans. When they're good, they make life worth living. And I'm sorry that a lot of them are shit, but what can you do? I'm sure they think the same of me.

But they're still better than machines. I mean, and this is just, I'm so glad you're. brought that up. That is just such the perfect example that we needed to see. It just can't think. And even bad thinkers are better than no thinkers. This thing does not think, and it didn't get it. And I don't think you can program for that. I mean, you would assume that it would be, they'd have something, but I guess it can't figure that stuff out. In the same way, to my knowledge, a computer and whatever is going on in terms of, you know, computer speak and brain power and all of the things that it can in fact do, what it can't do is be humorous.

Humorous. Yeah. It can't, it has no ability to find humor. You know what I don't like about Waymo's is that if I flip one off, it doesn't, I can't answer back. And I want that answer back. I want the way, they should program the Waymo to go, and fuck you too.

You know, something like that. And it's like a really stupid comment that somebody would make, because when you're on the road and you get cut off, you immediately go to the most lizard brain thing about the person who cut you off. I hear.

That's what my friends do. But you can't get a computer that can come up with humor. that's and and you know the I'm sure they work they try they try but they can't they can do a bad version of me yeah but that's the point it's bad yeah they can't yeah they can't get that um story you told about um they could have been good man yeah you know it happened your human brain found that funny which it was and then

I just don't think that it can go to that place now can they tweak it yeah but why can't we leave something to the humans because if you leave nothing to the humans they're not going to have any jobs they're already taking all the programmer jobs that was supposed to be the safe job that was the kid who grew up in the suburbs who became a coder you know it wasn't glamorous but you know i'm not going to starve well now you are because the AI can do your job now. Yeah. Well, certain things definitely better without question.

It's in the area of... Like what? Medicine? Well, no, medicine. It probably will figure out some stuff for medicines because that is, you know... That's its only redeeming value to me. But, other words, design, I'm not sure that it'll ever...

You know, a fashion design. I'm not sure that it knows how to do those areas. I don't think it could ever come up with a greater ballroom than the one that Donald Trump is planning for the White House. I've seen the plans. He showed me in person where before it was built, the area and I don't think AI can do that.

Ballrooms, that is just out of their domain or we should at least make a law that puts it out of their domain. Give us something. They're gonna have to leave something to the humans. What are we going to do? The way they're just whistling past this graveyard, And you hear even the people in the industry themselves say, oh, you know, the Navidia guy, you know, they make the microchips. That company is like, I think, the most valued company now in the world.

I think they, if they're not past Apple and Microsoft, they're very close, because they make the chips that AI runs by. I mean, they've got the winning hand in this poker game. And I think that guy, the head of that company that said, yeah, it's going to take like 30% of jobs. 30% of jobs. Can you imagine if there was a depression? Like, and we lost 30% of jobs? Yeah. Pete, what are they going to do?

I don't know. I don't know either. Does anybody try to figure that out what happens if? No, because again, the money is just blinding. It is. crypto another thing that my generation is not responsible for you assholes my generation had nothing to do with it we think it's fucking nuts but the people the young it's using like all the electricity between that and AI they're using all the energy that we ever saved from doing

environmental things like putting your plastic in one other bag which is probably doing nothing, nothing compared to what being all in on AI and crypto is doing. They use incredible amounts of energy, more than whole countries. They don't care. No. They don't care. And that's your people. Utah, talk to your people.

My people do not want war with your people. Firestick bad. It's true. What? That fire stick bad? Oh, very true. No, it's hard to figure out, you know, there's always been the people like talk about the future, right? You know, they're futurists, that there will be, whatever.

But I don't know that we've gotten much past where we are now. I don't hear these predictions that make sense for wherever the hell we're going. Past, you mean morally or? No. just in terms of life, you know, society, how does it function? How do we get around when we basically can't travel the roads? How do we deal with this? How do we deal with the energy issues?

How do we deal with, you know what I mean? There's many of those things that are, you know, like, fuck it, we don't give a shit about that. We got other things over here. But you're looking at, in a sense, where I think, you're, you know, in a sense where I think, think we're just going to like just be stuck and we won't move around much. We'll be home more or in a lounge chair someplace staring at something because there doesn't seem to be there's not much fluidity in interaction. I mean real interaction. It's a good idea for a movie

but you know one thing I'm going to say about you you you're very clever your whole career never to get drawn into like being a polemicist you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, you don't want to be, you want to, like, put interesting ideas out there, but you don't want to be, like, preachy or show your politics too. I mean, Wag the Dog is about politics. But it's not, but, you know, it's not about, like, this is the way it should be, and this is the one true opinion, and now I'm, now I'm the spokesperson for them. Because that turns me off. Yeah. And.

Me too. Yeah. It's the mechanics of it all. It's not art. It's polemics. They're two different things. But there are directors who do get them confused. Yeah.

There are those that somehow feel like I have to really say something. Right. In a way that you go, all right, well, now you're just saying something. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. No. I feel like, well, that's a great one, too.

Dustin Hoffman doing Robert Evans. But, you know, the thing is, he wasn't. Oh, come on. No, I just think I. I knew both. Well, I don't know Dustin Hoffman, but I did know Robert Evans. He was totally doing Robert Evans. Totally.

Here's the thing. It all started very close to shooting, because for a long time, Dustin said, you know, I don't know. In fact, he didn't want to do the movie at one point because he said, well, I don't really have a character. You know, this is with Bob and we're all talking. and he said, Bob, you got a great character, you know, but I don't have a character. And Bob De Niro, not Robert Evan. No, no, that's true. Bob De Niro said, I'll tell you what, then I'll take your role, you'd take my role.

That's great. And Dustin said, no, no, no, no, no. You've got a great character. That's a great throw the glove down. Yeah. And then. Wow. But anyway, so he wasn't doing it.

Now, he had his hair thing and whatever. No, he hadn't done his hair yet, but he had the glasses. There were wire rim glasses that he had, and then he had his hair done. And he came to me and he said, this doesn't look right, does it? I said, what do you mean? He said, on the wire rim, and then the hair, the hair's too high for the glasses. It doesn't go together. I said, well, did you try other glasses, you know?

So we pulled out some glasses. We put one on, and he went, oh, that looks. okay. He wasn't thinking of Bob Evans at that moment. He was trying to find a pair of glasses that worked with the hairdo. That's what he told you. He was totally thinking of Bob Evans.

It's obvious to everyone but you. It really is. But this was of the moment. Now maybe he had planned it. Well, that could be. Or the glasses could be peripheral to the character.

I mean, I felt like the glasses did also suggest Bob Evans but that's what like that kind of overly tanned super slick super sophisticated producer type that Bob Evans personify and I said that with great affection

I thought he was the greatest guy I mean I didn't know him that well but we did hang out a bunch of times I was at that house yeah you know he used to have people come into his bedroom nothing to happen but like there'd be like 10 people on the bed watching

TV, like something he wanted everyone to see. We'd all be like on bed like fucking dogs, you know, like curled up in a little position. So you had a little he didn't have much room, but I mean he was a, but he was such a sweet guy. And of course, the things he gave us, the Godfather and China.

But here's the thing. That's a part of a business that no longer exists. That whole... Getting on the bed? A guy who basically is social you know, spontaneous.

I like this idea, let's make that movie as opposed to I've got to talk to 15 and 20 people if he liked it and he wanted to make it. Well, he still had to do that. I mean, they made a great movie Paramount did about Making of the Godfather and he did not have autonomy. He was Charles Bluedhorn

was the Austrian head of Gulf and Western which owned Paramount at the time. It's so quaint, Gulf and Western, he had to always be like justifying himself to that to Charles Blutehorn and like the Gulf and Western

overseas. But it was a one-on-one thing. It wasn't like a committee, which is now... Yeah, that's true. You know, nowadays, you know, they don't even want if somebody's pitching an idea, they don't really want to be in the same room. It must be so hard to get a movie going these days that's like

not you know, silly or of not silly, but I mean, look. You have to go through a lot of hurdles and an enormous amount of people to agree on something. So, it's not like you may say in terms of, yeah, there was Bluthorne,

but if Evans loved the project, he would keep pushing to try to do it. Of course. And that's different from today. Yes, and that, you know, yeah, that breed of, you know, he was flamboyant And he was like a, you know, from one of the arts. He wanted to make good movies, you know.

I mean, look, I think my boss, Dazlov makes, you know, he's got a big string of hits for Warner Brothers. Look, did I love all of them? No, but like sinners is a real, you know, it's an interesting movie. There's some interesting movies. And I feel like he cares about like, you have to make compromises, but, you know, about making some movies. It's one of the last, of course, it's not. long for this world, Warner Brothers, I mean, they put themselves on the market. Yeah.

How often does that happen where they're like, they're not being hunted, they're saying, please hunt me. Look, it's a gigantic change in the motion picture business and in television at this point in time. You know, it's a huge change. I mean, now they got to check and see and, you know, how would this play if it's in the international markets what is going to happen if it's something you know what's the negativity if we do a project like you know and you're also fighting ageism it's it's a very ageist country and it's like

i was thinking about that that famous story about the uh the one of the great writers on mash and the master tv show which is on in the 70s and in the 90s i think it was he took his name he took mash off his credits because even though it was one of the greatest shows, it made people think he was too old to hire, like as a TV. Really? Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah.

They, you know, they, when you're our age, you have to, like, really fight. They, they are looking always to put you out to pasture. You have to go, no, I'm so necessary. You know what? A good try. Yeah. And I don't blame you for trying. Yep.

You know, it's natural to want to kill off the kings, but sorry, you have to take the crown. You have to take the title. I'm not going to give it to you. I never heard that. Take his name off. Didn't one of the same home? Yes, I think it was sad. Mumford, maybe is the name, but I'm not sure.

But, I mean, now, maybe the story's wrong, but I don't think so. I think he took his name off. Maybe it was the 21st century. I don't know. But at some point, a great writer with a great resume went, oh, you know what? This is going to make them think I'm in my 60s, and that's just not going to, just no matter what the show. was. But, you know. Larry Gelbart that I got to know, because I worked for a year on the

Marty Feldman comedy machine. Come on. What years is? 1971. Wow. So this is a TV show? Yeah, it was a weekly. Now, I barely remember Marty Feldman. He was, I know the name, and I remember a big. He was in Young Frankenstein that So kind of, yes, the goofy... He had one eye looking, one way or the other? Yes, one eye, one eye, Marty Feldman. Yes. He was funny, but he had a brief candle.

I mean, he... Well, he died very young. That could help, explain the reason why I didn't see him after a... Great physical comedian. Yeah, but after he was dead, you know. After he was dead, he wasn't as funny as then. Good name, bad guest is what we call that in the business. And that was about just around the time that the pythons were beginning.

Oh. And so Marty Feldman had a show in England, and I was working on that. Oh, in England? Yeah. It was in English. It was done there. It was going to be shown here. But he wasn't English.

Who was? Marty Feldman? Yeah. He was? Yes. Marty Feldman was English. Yeah. Wow.

Okay. So, and you were a comedy writer on it? I was a comedy writer. And something else you were a comedy writer on. Like what else? Carol Burnett show. Carol Burnett, wow. I think I'm still in her studio at CBS.

Maybe. I'm pretty sure. That studio had a lot of things in it. Everything from that to the price is right to us. Oh, yes, right, right. I mean, you know, I think all in the family maybe. Anything that CBS ever did was one of their bigger sound stage. It was a, that was like a, that show with Tim Conway on Carl Burnett show.

And Harvey Corman. Harvey Corman was great. She was, like, you know, terrific. And that show, you know, they would, they do two shows like at six o'clock and take a break and then do it again. Yeah. And just, you know, too. Yeah, you could put together the best take. And Conway was, like, brilliant with physical comedy.

Uh-huh. And we used to write some of the, uh, when he would play the old man. He was like he was a low guy And Dorf on golf You know That was a separate character Oh yeah But he was very good at that kind of

That type of thing And Oh and Harvey Corman Was a genius I mean there was That was a certain type of sketch comedy Yeah That was ascendant

And then when Saturday Night Live came along in 1975 It was in many ways A Rebellion It was in many ways of saying, this we think is corny, which it really wasn't, but they would crack each other up a lot

during the sketches. And I remember... Especially between Tim and Harvey. Yes. And it was like, oh, we're all in on the inside joke. We're just, you know, and it was hip in 1972. Saturday Night Live comes along and they're like, we don't do that.

We think that's cool. And if it had been the reverse, if they had been doing it straight, SNL would have done the breaking up. You just want to be different than the previous generation. But they were like, this is a different way to do a sketch. Yeah. And it was.

And they never, and they never, that was like the big rule over there. You don't break character. Now, of course, over the years, sometimes they have. And, you know, we let it slide. But generally, no, you stick to that. Whereas, yeah, the Cal Burnett show, it was much more like what Johnny Carson did with the sketch. It's like half winking to the audience that, you know, we're just. No, look, they

would break up more with Tim Conway because Conway would throw some stuff in there to get them off track and that became one of the elements in the show they were all it was like one of those

really well-run shows you come in on a Monday you're working on it on Wednesday you have a run through to see if the material is going to be good, make some changes of need be Thursday costume design Friday shoot two shows and that's and that's the way it went you know for all of those years I only worked on it for the three years but you wrote the sketches yeah like what's a sketch you remember that stands out that they thought was like Dr. Jekyll and Ms.

Hyde oh wow how forward thinking Barry so that's where Harvey he feels that he's He's beginning to change, you know, and then he said, excuse me or whatever, and then he would, like, go behind the drapes, and then somebody's gone, you know, but Dr. Jekyll, and then part the thing, and then there's Carol. Oh. And then she's going to change back into Harvey, and that was basically where the piece of work.

But Ms. Ms. was like a new term back then. Yes. So this was a comment on, like, the current feminism? Yeah, and it's rough. touching a pond without trying to make a particular point of view. But, you know, it was good fun that Harvey could turn into Carol, and Carol can turn back into Harvey, you know? So that was one in that we used to do a lot of the Tim Conway pieces

where he was the old man. He was playing. He was an old old man, and he was like the cab driver. Yeah. And it would be like something that's like a be the setup. He's there, and all of a sudden Harvey would get into the, into the cap to the airport and make it snappy. And then there's a long, long, long pause.

And then about 20, 30 seconds later, Conway, we'd look in the rear room and go, a passenger. And then it would begin with what Conway would do is he would say to the airport. And then they used to have, they don't have any more. The Conway would get the, I forget what the book was called, on AI, AI, for the directions, you know, which is another minute, which Harvey would lose it, and then laughing. And they would do that, those particular simple little, you know, sketches. I mean, I remember when I was a kid, the comedy teams, the cab was a staple of, because one would be the cab driver and one would be the pal.

Stiller and Mirror did it. There was that one that, who's that people on Ed Sullivan, Burns and Shrine. oh that's right yeah huh yeah huh yeah that was like a rhythm thing yes one again the passenger would be obnoxious or the passenger would be whatever the fuck and the cabby would be like so one would be talking like this it was like i don't know yes my childhood was so idyllic when i you know when i think about what kids are doing today when they're 11 years old they're on their phone watching japanese porn and seeing a team of businessmen come on a school girl's face and i was watching this i think i'm better off it look you were seeing things one of the

first things i remember as a kid was sid caesar show and because sid caesar would you know play these characters and he had some brilliant you know people in there and a great cast i mean that was even before my time but i certainly know about it and if people don't know the writing staff they call it the 27 Yankees of writing staffs because it was on a right Mel Brooks Woody Allen Larry Gelbart I can't know I'm leaving Neil Simon

Neil Simon I mean like people who went on to giant major careers all on one writing staff and there's a couple others that did Broadway went to Broadway yes yeah amazing the I don't know if you remember the sketch because it was all done long back then, and you wouldn't have remembered it, but unless you might have seen it, and sometimes

they show these archival things, but there's one where Sid Caesar is the lawyer and waiting for the jury's reaction, and then the head of the jury is supposed to say, you know, we find them, you know, innocent, you know, and but he's supposed to say, I'm sorry, supposed to was to say, we find him guilty so that Caesar can go into, you know, how can you find him guilty? And then he's got like a three-minute piece of dialogue because it's guilty. And the foreman said, we find him innocent. And then Caesar. Because he just fucked up? Yes, he fucked up the guy, the foreman of the jury. Fuck up the one word he had. One word. He couldn't get, he couldn't get guilty he went with innocent and then

Caesar had to ad lib the next three and a half minutes because he's got it you know he has no argument and yet he found a way to pull it off oh I'm sure he was a genius but I must say you mentioned archival okay they did it probably in the 80s I feel like I have a memory of watching this on my apartment in on Westmount Avenue

when I my first apartment out here in late 80s okay they did I think it was Showtime maybe it was a little after that because I mean I did a series for Showtime in 1988 it was around then and Showtime had the best of your show of shows or 10 from your show up shows and they did show like 10 and I watched it I was very curious because I certainly had heard about Sid Caesar and I knew about the writing staff and you know a comic kid who wanted to be in comedy and so I watched it and I gotta say I just thought it was the worst fucking shit

I'd ever seen and and what struck me was that it was so broad and to me so unfunny and the audience and this is a you know this is crude 50s TV you can't they're not faking any there's a laugh track the audience is just losing their shit over how funny they think their shit is and all I could think is this is the post World War II

audience they went through a war they went through a depression they're just so fucking happy to be home and fucking in their little levitt townhouses and having little kids and not being at war and they're just they're just fucking happy and they'll laugh at anything because this shit was not funny it was just so broad to me well i mean it was funny in its time in its time exactly Which wasn't my time. And, you know, that's the key. It would have been, you know, I would see some comics that would be on Ed Sullivan, old comics, that I never found funny at all, you know. I have a whole list.

I don't understand why this is funny, you know. George Burns. I didn't like any of those old. So there's a period, you know, so each generation has to find its new voice. It really does show how perishable comedy is, more than music. I mean, look at TV, the commercials. They're constantly using songs that are from my era. Okay, those are old songs, but they're still good,

and people still listen to them. They still listen to the Beatles and so forth. But do we really, like, watch comedy from 60 years ago? No. No, look, Miltonville. Very little of it lasts. I was watching just recently. YouTube or whatever it was, and I thought, Milton Burrell.

And I remember as a kid, it was one of the first television shows that I saw. And I thought, I got to watch this. He was huge, right? He was like, you know, Mr. Television. Because there was like three channels. But the point being is there was only three channels, but when you watch it, it's not funny at all. Exactly my point. just happy to have the war over. They would laugh at the phone book. They just did not care.

They were just giddy. The people were fucking giddy. And I get that. I've talked to my parents when they were alive about that, about that period and how they felt. And yet, they were giddy. You know, there were problems, but, you know, they were living in the suburbs on the GI Bill. and, you know, there weren't just, I mean, obviously the country was still a fucked-up racist place. But it's also, it's also, you know, how perishable it is. Because even when you see some of the comedies that were once upon a time really funny, supposedly, I don't find funny at all. Now, you will find somebody will, you know, break through. But there were a bunch of those films shows, I don't know what, something,

and whatever, I don't even remember the names, but I would see these films, you know, because we would go Saturday to see whatever's playing at the movie theater, and they'd been around, and I didn't find a bunch of those things funny at all. And then this new wave of comedy came along, you know, like the pythons came along was like a whole new thing when the pythons started with their, you know, English humor.

That was another, you know, groundbreaking. Yeah, and so there's that period of time it goes on, and it's getting boring, and then boom, something explodes again. I've been showing older movies to someone who I know was much younger and has no knowledge of these movies, but she's, you know, likes them. You should love Gone with the Wind, you know, Casablanca, Sunset Boulevard really holds up. Yeah. The third man. Some of them don't. Some of them don't.

So I was telling her about bringing up baby, which is in the 30s. Carrie Grant and Catherine Hepburn, I think, you know, classic. And they remade it as What's Up Doc in 1980 or 70s? Bogdanovitch. Bogdanovich, Barbara Streisand, Ryan O'Neill. So we watched that first. It's awesome. Streisand is amazing in this.

I mean, she just blows the lid off of it. Ryan O'Neill's great too, but like he's playing a much easier part. She's doing the heavy lifting. It's just really great. It's funny. And, of course, it's based on bringing a baby. A lot of the bits are exactly the same, beat for bean, where she grabs his jacket and he tears it, everything, the whole McGuffin of the movie.

So then we try to watch that one. Got about a halfway hour through it. I mean, it's from 1935. It's just a heavy lift to ask 1935 to like, live on in 2025. It just is. Sometimes they pull it off, but it's just, it's just too heavy a lift. It's just too long a time, you know? The sensibility is different. You know, my father's war letters, I read recently over somebody had a lot of, and a little after the war, so we're talking about 40s into the 50s. These are men at war writing each other, and they never once used the word

fuck. Men at war, they were just different. Never said fuck, never said shit, never said piss, never said cunt, never said jizz on your face, never said skull fuck.

Wait, fucking shit, let's just stop at that. But really, I mean, can you think, never said my fist up your ass. Okay. So, But, like, can you imagine, like, men? These are men writing letters to each other, and they don't use any profanity.

We're a very different species. Oh, yeah. Was it you ever, you know, in the Ken Burns documentary, the Civil War, letters home. Yeah. Same thing. And they sound like they're written by Walt Whitman. I know. Right.

Incredibly. You go, how gorgeous is this? So erudite. And they're just, you know, this is just a common man. Yeah, and half of them never went to school. You're going back. They must have learned it somewhere. I don't understand how you're right.

You would think that this is some kind of, like, how do they, there's a lot of very good writers. Back then, you had to turn your phone off in class. And there was none of that indoctrinating into woke bullshit. They actually told you reading, writing, and arithmetic. Wasn't all a political commissar building. Look how out of whack our government is. Our government was, I don't know if you're watching the Ken Burns' great Revolutionary War.

Doc, he just did. It's great. And, you know, our government was designed where the presidency was really the least of the three branches of government. They executed the laws. but Congress had all the power. That's the way they designed it. And we're almost at the opposite place now, where Congress has no power,

and the president has almost all the power. That's exactly what we were revolting against. Don't make a movie about that because it's too on the nose. What is your next thought for a movie? There's a few things that I'm interested in, but we'll see what happens, especially now because there's so many objections

to a movie that you want to make what you can't do basically which is what I really love is in the films that were more personal to me as stories of characters that I knew and grew up with and where things went

in terms of society and all of those things which is I did four of the Baltimore films and not that I'm going to stay in that place, but in that particular world, you know, that applied to today even in terms of how do we deal with one another? What's the one with Richard Dreyfus? What's that? What's the one with Richard Dreyfus? Ten men. I love that. Ten men. Yeah, with Danny DeVito. That's good. That's such a good one. I feel like that one kind of like got lost in the shuffle, but that's a really funny movie. It did all right, but it was, it did okay. It could have done better, but they were always nervous about

those type of films. I just mean over time, you know, like people remember Wegg, the dog, of course, Rain Man, of course, because Tom Cruise, geez, whatever. He was really... What a phenomenon that is, in every way. What's interesting is that, you know, most of the movie, as it turned out, there was...

I got involved because originally Sidney Pollock was going to do it, and Michael Ovitz was his agent and my age. Which I'm a Rain Man? Yeah. Sidney Pollock was going to be directed? He was going to direct it. Wow. And he was having problems with the script, and Michael Ovid said, would you read the script and talk to Cindy about doing it?

You know, the fixes. And so I met with Cindy and I went over and I talked about it all and all of those things. And eventually he said, I just can't see it. And so then Ovid said, you know, when you want to direct it and my wife, Diana, said, this is right up your alley to do because I was explaining it. Were Tom Cruise and Dustin Hoffman attached to it when he still passed? Yes. What an idiot.

No, he was great. I loved him. He was a terrific person, but he couldn't understand. And what a movie maker. And he was looking for more things to happen in the movie. And I was saying, I think it's the two of them in the car, period. You're the non-happening guy. And the hustler can't hustle the autistic.

That's the basis of the movie. And so this is what happened. We're going to, he drops out, I get involved. And we're just about go off to shoot and we still have to do rewriting. And there was a writer's strike. And so now you can't write. And so as a director, what you can do is just talk. You know, so like, for instance, I would say,

on a highway scene, I said, I don't like the highway because it's too boring on being on a highway, but that's the fastest way to get to L.A. has to take an interstate. But at the back roads are more interesting looking and they said, well, what are you going to do? It's the way you got to go. I said, what about if there's an accident on the highway. And then if he sees there's an accident, he's not getting back in the car. That sounds like writing. And so you're just talking premise and then you just that's why the whole thing is so silly yeah but here's the key to it tom has never been thought of as somebody to you know ad lib uh but that if you take a segment like that it's all ad lib i just said to dustin you you want to get off the out of the car and you're not

getting in the car and take it off the highway and that's it and then tom you're trying to deal with him and then you're going to deal with the police and you're telling you've got to get him into the car and that was it. So we would just shoot in and put it together. You were the director made for a writer strike. The one who can credibly claim,

I didn't write any of the shoes. So that's how it basically you know, you know, came about because of the writer's strike and then you're just trying to, you know, fill in the scenes as you go along. And this is when you became a Scientologist?

All right. Well, I'm so glad we got to sit down together. I'm such a fan, and you're just as entertaining to sit with as you are to watch, having directed all those great pictures. This is a nice spot here. Oh, this room is magical. I mean, it's, I was, I was, you know, Everyone told me to tear it down when I bought this.

Really? Yeah, because it was full of termites and mold and, you know. But how did you get the idea to do a podcast? You know, everybody kept saying to me for years, you should do a podcast. And I'd be like, please, I have a television show. And they'd be like, yeah, but you don't get to talk about everything on that. And they were so right because this is so different than the television show, which I'd do like, specific preparation for and a lot of it. And this, I just get high and talk. And so it goes where

it goes. And it doesn't have to be about politics. And I don't want it to be. I have a show for politics. Right. This is different. And so I get to, you know, just talk with people like yourself, who I probably would never get the chance to do. I mean, it's just, it's just been a joy. So hope we do it again? No, this was fun. I mean, first of I just realized that I'm not paying attention, but there's no camera person. That was my idea. That was a good idea. I said, hide the cameras in the walls.

I want this to be, I want people to forget, you know, no other person in the room, no microphones in our face. And it does produce a level in intimacy. I do not see anywhere else. No. No. I was about. to say, so when do you want to start

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