Club Random with Bill Maher - Gus Van Sant | Club Random with Bill Maher

Episode Date: December 22, 2025

Filmmaker Gus Van Sant joins Bill Maher for a candid conversation that pulls back the curtain on what it really takes to survive in Hollywood. Van Sant opens up about the scrappy, crowdfunded reality behind Dead Man’s Wire, studio politics, and why critics may have saved his career. The two dig into his iconic films (Drugstore Cowboy, My Own Private Idaho, To Die For, Psycho) and trace the lineage of comedy from Lenny Bruce to Saturday Night Live – along with the strange psychology of actors and directors on set, including a jaw-dropping story about literally throwing rocks to get a performance. Support our Advertisers: -Go to https://www.zbiotics.com/random and use code RANDOM for 15% off your first order -Get $10 off your first month’s subscription and free shipping at https://www.nutrafol.com and enter promo code RANDOM  -Go to https://www.hellofresh.com/random10fm to get 10 free meals and a free breakfast for life -Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at https://www.rula.com/random #rulapod #ad Subscribe to the Club Random YouTube channel: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/c/clubrandompodcast?sub_confirmation=1⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Watch episodes ad-free – subscribe to Bill Maher’s Substack: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://billmaher.substack.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the podcast for free wherever you listen: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/ClubRandom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Buy Club Random Merch: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://clubrandom.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices ABOUT CLUB RANDOM Bill Maher rewrites the rules of podcasting the way he did in television in this series of one on one, hour long conversations with a wide variety of unexpected guests in the undisclosed location called Club Random. There’s a whole big world out there that isn’t about politics and Bill and his guests—from Bill Burr and Jerry Seinfeld to Jordan Peterson, Quentin Tarantino and Neil DeGrasse Tyson—talk about all of it.  For advertising opportunities please email: [e-mail] ABOUT BILL MAHER Bill Maher was the host of “Politically Incorrect” (Comedy Central, ABC) from 1993-2002, and for the last fourteen years on HBO’s “Real Time,” Maher’s combination of unflinching honesty and big laughs have garnered him 40 Emmy nominations. Maher won his first Emmy in 2014 as executive producer for the HBO series, “VICE.” In October of 2008, this same combination was on display in Maher’s uproarious and unprecedented swipe at organized religion, “Religulous.” Maher has written five bestsellers: “True Story,” “Does Anybody Have a Problem with That? Politically Incorrect’s Greatest Hits,” “When You Ride Alone, You Ride with Bin Laden,” “New Rules: Polite Musings from a Timid Observer,” and most recently, “The New New Rules: A Funny Look at How Everybody But Me Has Their Head Up Their Ass.” FOLLOW CLUB RANDOM https://www.clubrandom.com https://www.facebook.com/Club-Random-101776489118185 https://twitter.com/clubrandom_ https://www.instagram.com/clubrandompodcast https://www.tiktok.com/@clubrandompodcast FOLLOW BILL MAHER https://www.billmaher.com https://twitter.com/billmaher https://www.instagram.com/billmaher Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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All exclusive at clubrandom.com. Tis the season to get random. The guys we don't like, they are like, yes, and the guys we do like, no, they wouldn't have done that. No, I'm not saying that. The contestants, yeah, the people up for the award. Nominees, you mean?

Nominees. We're not content as Gus, for Christ's sake. Great pleasure to meet you, sir. How are you? Good. You comfortable? Yes. Very.

Are you comfortable doing conversations? This is not an interview because I never prepare anything. Oh, good. All right. It's just what I know about you, which is I'm a big admirer of your movies. Oh, thanks, sir. And so the latest one, liked it a lot, Dead Man's Wire. Are you excited about the upcoming Oscar season and what that might?

Today is the first day that it plays in a theater. Oh, really? It plays in two theaters. One is in L.A., one in New York, I think, to qualify for at least Oscars. And then it goes to streaming? No. it's not a it's not a streaming project at all it's a completely independent that's rare these i don't know if you saw the end credits there was a um a hundred producers so kind of a crowdfunding

a hundred producers yeah come on because i think each one put in like a hundred thousand dollars added up to 10 million dollars yeah the money it was all about the money i mean every director of a certain age that i talked to in recent years you know, some very big names like you, and it's always about getting the money. Yes. I mean, maybe it always... I mean, kind of, this is such a low budget, that there were a lot of things that weren't like, you know, if it's a $100 million project, you know, there's a lot of things that

are about the money, but this was so low budget that there were a lot of things that weren't. What's the whole budget these days? Ours was $10.8 million. So... Do you know how much Cleopatra cost? A million? A million. One million.

Really? And that was a big deal. Well, it was 1962, so come on. But still... I was around. It is pretty funny that they went batch it about that number. Yeah. You know the ticket for My Fair Lady cost on Broadway?

The best ticket in the house in 1956, the year I was born? No. $6. Wow. Those are the days. Well. But a car was like $1,500. That's the interesting thing.

Somebody put out a great article recently pointing out that the poverty level, you know, what we call the, you know, below the poverty level is a certain thing where you qualify for government funding, you know, food stamps and stuff. It's based on something like from the 50s where you have, it's like a third of your money goes to food back then. It did. But now, not nearly a third of people's money goes to food. Food is cheap, but housing, college, medical, child care, all that shit, you know, was way cheaper or didn't even exist. My child care, yeah, we had child care.

It was called my mother. Same with us, my family. I mean, you're from Mike Mayborn in the 50s, right? grew up on the East Coast. 52. I grew up, my family was from Kentucky. First six years were in Colorado, Denver, Colorado, a suburb. What was that like back then?

It was very suburban, like the new houses were, you know, a whole section of the city. It's kind of a western city. I mean, Denver is, I always found it fascinating. That whole state, it's what they call a purple state, because, you know, You know, it's sort of like, it's got like fucking hippies, you know, there's a big... New Cassidy came from Denver. Neil Cassidy? One of the beats.

Yeah, sure, I remember. With Ginsburg, right? But he was from downtown Denver. Carowack was from Massachusetts. But they were all in the same coven together, right? Yeah, they met at Columbia in New York. and Neil was just driving through and Alan was like

this guy is amazing and introduced him yeah I feel like your early movies that made you famous the drugstore cowboy and private Idaho that's sort of that milieu it seems like you were very inspired by that when you were a kid

yeah I was wasn't early see that's four years were different the little that's just a little before I was true yeah like when you were a young teenager like that was a thing you would as a smart 13 year old that's something you would be interested in whereas in that era I was just into baseball cards yeah you know and didn't

really 1968 I'm 12 that's like a really the first year like I sort of became aware of the world outside of me I was suddenly into music yeah that's a big difference it is from baseball baseball to music so it's four years basically so I was 16 and 68 so yeah very different and if you're 16 and 68 the number one where were you have was the draft is the draft which right came up and my number by then they had a lottery my number was four but I had a student deferment so as a student you and your fucking white privilege how dare you even sit here and drink with me you fascist white privilege well it actually was i mean you know i mean they overused that phrase but back in that day it kind of was

like you could and not just that day george bush famously the first you know i mean the second George Bush famously was in the National Guard. When he could have gone to Vietnam, and when he ran against John Kerry, he was always like, stop denigrating the guard. And like, we're not denigrating the guard. We're denigrating you for having your congressman father pull strings and let you in the guard.

Yes. Because the guard was, you know, it wasn't the, when Heath was prosecuting the war in Iraq, he sent a lot of National Guard. But when he was in the National Guard, they didn't go to Vietnam. No. Because we had a draft. Yeah.

Your background there, like in a place that was this sort of cross-currents, I feel like you get that, I mean, Denver, Colorado can be a redneck place. Yeah. Well, we left when I was six, and we traveled. around what's like Chicago for two years, San Francisco area for one year, and then Connecticut. So I was 10 when I got to Connecticut. So a lot of my, I pretty much grew up in what you were saying, Karen. Darian. Oh, I know the area well. You do? Well, I was a pot dealer in college. I went from never smoking to dealing it in six months because it's certainly the best way. way to afford it. And my pot dealer, when I got out of college, I kept the, I started in college,

but I kept the job because I was a comedian, how am I going to make a living? You know, like, you have to, comedians are really great at like just figuring out ways to not work in the day and somehow survive. And that was my scam. Not a scam. I was an honest drug pot dealer. And I went to Westport, Connecticut. Oh, to sell. To buy. To buy. To buy them to sell. There seemed to be like a lot of pot in the area. It was just lucky that there was this guy who I, it was introduced through a friend,

and I think this guy's brother was in the mob. And he just got like tons of pot. And so the prices were great. He was just a sweet guy. I think he wanted people to come over and smoke pot with them, you know, like drug dealers do. You have to, like, talk to the drug dealer for an hour. Right. And you become their friend.

Yeah. So I would go up there, you know, with my briefcase that my mother gave me for Christmas looked like a businessman's briefcase, dressed like, you know, I was 22 and had shitty clothes. I must have stood out thinking my briefcase was going to make me look like a businessman. I'd have like a $99 coat from Macy's that I was wearing. But I go there and I would fill that briefcase up with a couple of pounds of pot. And that's my, and bring it back to the city, take the train. So you grew up in New York City? No, I grew up in New Jersey, but then I was living in New York. After college, I moved into New York, dirt poor, living in shitholes. You know, you got to start somewhere. Were you poor ever? I mean, just on my own, when I was just starting out, I was technically poor. It's great.

It's great when it's not great when it's happening. It's great when you look back and go, you know, because I never went to war, and there's nothing like bravery of the bravery of the soldier. Whoever else is brave, they say it about actors, you know, she's so brave. Oh, fuck, she put on a fake nose for a movie. Okay, that's not exactly D-Day, you know, you're brave. But I'm glad I had something that I could look back and go,

wow, that was a trial to get through those 10 years where I really was, you know, poor, living in shitty places and worrying about every penny and scraping by. It makes everything after, don't you think? More Yeah, I was pretty much here in L.A. during that period. Why? Because you moved to Hollywood.

After college, I went to college and my student deferment. And, yeah, I ended up here and got a job in Beverly Hills. But you came here because you wanted to be in show business? Yeah. Or you... Show business. You knew all right away. Filmmaking. I thought of it as filmmaking, but now

Now, today I realize it's just show business. It's like entertainment. Well, it's both. It's both. And I worked for a comedian, Ken Shapiro. He lived on Summit Ridge Drive. He made a film called The Groove Tube. I know the group with Richard Belzer, who I started with.

I mean, he was my mentor. Right. So Ken and he were, like, close. The Groove Tube, of course. that was a legendary underground movie but i mean we're talking about early 70s right 72 yeah and it was edgy comedy it was like just like saturday night live except it was a film and uh before saturday night live yeah and and uh lauren michael's worked for per can as a screenwriter when he was pitching saturday night live okay and and comedy did tend to have like lots of different things

like spoofs and um in his his case he had the news and he had musical numbers and things like that can we still see the groove too yeah if we you can see it on youtube yeah how ironic yeah yeah because it was almost forecasting that yeah i i remember belzer that was one of his big credits when i used to bring him on stage at catch a rising star yeah he was starring in the roof tube and Chevy Chase and you were you wrote on it no I thought I would write for him maybe but I just became a production assistant and he had a lot of comedians come in he had a paramount deal and when Lauren Michaels went from LA Lauren Michaels was writing one of the scripts called Ma Bell which is about the phone phone freaks

that were that were like cracking into the phone system and calling the White House. You could do that then? Yeah, you could do funny tricks with the phone. And the guy they were writing about was hacking into the phone system headquarters and having them send him, like, trucks and telephone poles and, like, you know, computer chips

that he would sell to the rival phone companies. Computer chips in 1970. Or chips of whatever. whatever kinds of boards they had, you know. Telegram chips. The circuit boards. And he was sold to Western Electric for big money. And so he was a millionaire at 16 as a phone.

So they were writing that script, which never was filmed. And Lauren Michaels got an okay to do at least one Saturday night that they were traveling and setting up Saturday Night Live. and he offered Ken to come with him to do it. And Ken had worked in New York TV since he was a child, since he was 10. He was on the... And he turned this down?

He turned it down. As a 10-year-old, he was on the Milton Burl show. What a bad decision. It was. It's like the guy, remember the guy who turned down the Beatles? He could have managed the Beatles. He was just like that. I don't think these mop-top groups are going anywhere in the industry.

Frankie, Avalon, has a new hit record out. that I think the kids are going to go crazy for. Yeah, they just, sometimes you just totally get it wrong. Does he still rue the day? He died from cancer, but he would watch Saturday Night Live. I would join him watching every week. And some of the bits were hangovers from their previous period when they had a storefront comedy theater.

And so he was always saying, I'm going to see them for that bit or that and that's always the roughest when they because capitalism is just blood and tooth it is as raw as it gets they will fucking slit your throat that's the nature of it and great things do come out of it it has provided more wealth and taken more people out of poverty than anything it's not even close but it is tooth and claw and if you have an idea they will steal it. If they can get away with it at all, very brazenly. It's tough, like, if you're an inventor,

because, like, you almost don't want to go for the patent because they'll find out about it and do it, and they're a big company with lawyers, and they'll just take it and do it before your thing. It's one of the rotten parts, but, I mean, after all, we are not communists. and it feels maybe it feels good if somebody steals your stuff it's worth stealing that's a very charitable way to look at it because i i am not as nice a person i mean if

they steal your idea that they're never going to be able to do it like you would do it so they steal the concept uh that's true that's true when my show politically incorrect went on in 1993 there were a bunch of imitator shows and i remember worrying about that and uh my producer at the I'm such a smart guy, and he said to me one day, he said, Bill, we can't teach people here how to do it, like the writers. And it was like, this was a very new concept. He said, we're trying to tell them how to do it, and they don't get it. You know, they did eventually.

But so, you're right about that. But they also can just, it depends on the kind of idea, but yes. Yeah, exactly. I mean, look at, in music, there's always these lawsuits about you stole. my song you that is my song and you just put a tambourine on it or whatever and sometimes i hear it and sometimes i don't i mean robin thick got sued for doing marvin gay with blurred lines i never heard the similarity yeah and george harrison famously got sued for my sweet lord from the chiffons he's so fine i get that's definitely similar and but then that it was such a classic

rock and roll song that it's just as almost but until they had the lawsuit it never I knew the song he's so fun even though it's before my time but it was a iconic song but I never when I was listening to my sweet boy would ever thought that once they said it I heard it to me that's you know come on man it's like in football now with you know it's the replays it's like the guy just made an amazing catch let him fucking happen do we have to go over with this like this a prudor film and like throw shit out because it's not perfect you know but you've done well with the critics don't you think they they I feel like you're somebody who has gotten generally great notices yeah because it's great work the critics are the ones that probably save me to die for is to

die for awesome all-time faves well buck henry was buck henry wrote it I know he's good And if kids don't know, he also wrote The Graduate, just to give you an example of what his pedigree is. He was just watching The Graduate. And it was on the first Saturday Night Live. Oh, the first one? Well, maybe the second. He was one of the first hosts. He loved it.

He's the one who was in the sketch, the famous samurai sketch that John Belushi did. Belushi is samuraiing him. That's awesome. Yeah, isn't that great? Is he still with us? No, he's not with us. but he yeah I was watching the group

the graduate and saw you know like the style of comedy that was in to die for you could see his like imprint that film what years are film 67 no to die for

to die for um 90 90 yeah 90 um the 90s though wow that's 94 I think holy fuck I would not have guessed that long ago

because it is, wow, then it's even more ahead of its time because, I mean, that media-hungry character I feel like that only got more relevant. Not that it didn't exist that, obviously enough for you to do a great satire with it, but evermore, I mean, in the age of influencers, I mean, that's exactly what her mentality is, wouldn't you say? Yes, exactly.

You should redo it. Before any of that happened, yeah. Which I guess it was sort of happening on cable because cable allowed a lot of first timers to do the weather and to start out. So they kind of had their version of TikTok on cable. But yeah, now they're everywhere. So what about redoing it, Gus?

What do you think? We use Sabrina Carpenter, Nicole Kid Monroe, and she's married to Nick Fuentes. right let's do it do you have any sources of money to do yeah what about crowd sourcing i mean that's what we've been doing yeah no literally like i mean the the hundred producers really is like a crowd source type thing um so do you have to beg every single one of them i mean nor helped us like you know probably 20 of right because she was oh that's awesome mixing around and like and and making it sound like a really good that's perhaps the most

essential part of the you know operation yes you know sometimes people say you know who's the most essential part of your operation and I say well I'm about to be 70 it's the makeup girl and then they laugh I'm like I'm not kidding yeah it's the makeup girl okay everything else I have great help and great people but I could do on my own like this no I'm just doing this not that it's whatever it is but but makeup no no no no that's we we need the good makeup girl and the good lighting and yeah you know I mean I you know it's time to go when you can't even look good with lighting and makeup there's a time to get off the stage and hopefully AI will solve that I think it

will I've been saying for me for decades that what they should have come up with and maybe they will is what I always called the thin mask when you're 35 they take a mask of your face and then when you're older you wear the mouth you're always 30 like 35 wow and it just fits on and it's just perfect but it just it's and then you have the best of both worlds you have the good brain that you get when you're older the one that doesn't make all those unforced errors of your youth when you're fucking stupid especially as a man and you still look like you're 35 I mean can imagine what a

ball you could be there yeah it would be amazing people are trying it just surgically but but that I mean it's hard to make it work it's hard to make it work I mean I've seen it work I think we all have like wow that's very good I mean certainly Chris Jenner now is lauded like she's the Rosa Parks of plastic surgery, you know, she somehow found this genius doctor, and so she, okay, and she wears it proudly. And it's a great, I mean, you know, it's as good a job as they can do.

And a few other people it's worked for. Other people, it settles after about, you know, right away it looks terrible. But five years in, you're like, okay. But then you still got to, you know, for five years, years, you're a man and you look like a Chinese school girl. Yeah. Okay, how is that good? And then, okay, great, five years down the road, you know, it's the same with tits.

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Mildly? Yes. When did you realize tits were none for you? Maybe Playboy magazine was like... Like this isn't... It was sort of thinking I'm supposed to think... I'm supposed to really... Playgirl.

Playgirl, which was a little after my time, I think. My first... first press I ever got was Playgirl magazine. I was interviewed in Playgirl. I was thrilled that a magazine wanted to talk to me. And when it came out, you know, there's a table of contents page at the beginning of a magazine. So between each story, they had a little picture from the story. So there's my face for my interview. And right above me, it was the story about naked fireman. And there's a guy And his dick is like coming right down almost into my picture.

And I still have it and I'm still very proud of it. That's cool. Both the picture and the dick. I never saw, I wasn't really aware of Playgirl. I was reading, I guess, National Lampoon or something like that. Oh, that was my Bible. Yeah, that was amazing, right? I mean, when I was younger, it was Mad magazine.

Yeah, me too. Which? I had a subscription. Yeah, I had a subscription. I still have the covers. There's some covers here. There's one on the wall somewhere around here of a mad magazine. It was from the 60s, and of course, they're like sort of making fun of the hippies.

That was a new thing, you know, but also. And the Blockbuster movies. Blockbuster. They were, you know, do the cartoons about Mutiny on the Bouncy, as they called it. Which were hilarious. And the fold-in, remember the mad in the back? But it was, when I got to be the age where Lampoon came out, it was like perfect time because I was ready to graduate from MAD,

which all respect to MAD, but it was not Lampoon was definitely a step up of sophistication-wise and gutsy. Yeah, yeah, it was fantastic. And not liberal, by the way. it took a because it was because really if you look at something dispassionately with the most jaundiced eye you're going to find as i do now a lot of problems with liberalism even though they were i think they were basically liberal and i am too but they didn't shy away from making fun of hippies and all that kind of stuff that came along right when i needed that in my comedic PJ O'Rourke.

P.J. O'Rourke, I always say and John Hughes, his pieces were very Samuel Beckett. But P.J. then became the editor. I mean, the main guy. And I still have those issues. I mean, the amount of really

funny stuff they packed in was impressive. And he's also somebody whose DNA goes into Saturday Night Live. Because Lampoon was also sourcing that. They had their plays. Woodstock, the Lemmings. Yes, they also had, like, National Ampleen

Off Broadway. I have the album. It is, oh, yeah, the album's great. Bill Murray is singing on it. Chris Guests. Yeah. Listen. And Michael O'Donoghue, I think,

was involved with that. And so a lot of that just came straight through. And I was talking to Dana Carvey and David Spade, I was just saying, I have my issues with Lauren Michaels, but you cannot deny the, just the overwhelming influence that one factory had on, I mean, the way it pipelines, like almost all of our comedy movie people,

from Eddie Murphy to Bill Murray and Will Ferrell and Kristen Wigg and Tina Faye. I mean, everybody, you know, like, for such a long time. And still today. still today sure hanging in there and probably after he goes

the show still will be doing that the show will survive it'll probably crash right after he goes you think because of I'm assuming maybe unless somebody learns his his nature somehow Lauren himself seems to hold it all together

even through the thick and thin and you don't think anyone else can do that I mean I just think it's one of those magic things that like when the actual guy goes They might feel like, why are we doing this? And you have to have that guy that's because I want to do it. I don't think so, because I think Lorne has anointed people like Tina Faye or Colin

Joe's, who does the weekend. They've been around a long time. They know his ways. They're respected. A succession does kind of make sense. I'll make a bet. Okay, great. $100.

Oh, fantastic. How many years? Well, you know, Gus, we're going to be around for a very long time. So let's say in 25 years, when AI has his notes. Okay, let's say, well, I don't know, it depends on when he quits. He may never quit. That's true. Let's say two years from when he quits.

Okay. Gotcha. $100. $100. You're worth nothing then. It won't be worth the paper. It's printed out of. We'll be living in the Weimar Republic, Gus.

That's $6. No, I think the key to that show is casting. The way they are able to always replenish the well, not, they don't go eight for eight. Nobody's terrible, but they just, they do find stars, people who are, and you go, well, you're right. You know, whoever had that eye and said, oh, this, you know, guy, this comedian woman is going to be, and they, there's always people who you're were like, oh, wow, what a, Kate McKinnon, you know, came along and all the, and you're like, wow, just amazing the way they do that. That is what will make that show live or die, I think, more than anything else. Will they be able to, was he the one who actually did that? Or was there somebody under, I don't know the answer to that question. But if there's somebody else who was doing it for him or with him or could do it without him, the show will go on. If not, I don't think it will. I feel it's probably him or his wife. I think he has a great sense of, like, people who are funny but also have a likeability.

You know, Bill Hader. I mean, I could go on with all the people who really came out and were just a joy to watch. And Blushy almost was almost fired for. Right, the first crew, you know. I mean, I don't know what was with that first crew because, like, Bill Murray and Chevy Chase. both genius comics in their own right, but both have terrible reputations just like, like you do not want to be on a set with this asshole.

And, you know, I don't know, that's so odd that both of them would be on the same show at the same time and then become that person. I don't know why, but, you know, I'm sure you've been on your share of sets with people who are, you know, I mean... Don't get along, you know. I mean, look, I was on acting sets for about 10 years in the 80s

when all us young comics came out and were on sitcoms, and we thought that's the way to get ahead, silly movies. And I don't remember any set where there wasn't some blow-up or some people are on such a hair trigger. You know, that's their instrument. I don't have to tell you about their instrument, because I'm sure you hear about it from them all the time. And it's true.

You know, they want to tap into an emotional thing. A lot of times they keep themselves unhappy. That's why you never want to go out with an actress. Yeah. You know, you don't want her doing Sophie's choice and coming home with that shit. You know, it's not going to be... I can't get in the mood tonight. I had to cut a baby in half.

But a set is sort of like a boiling pit anywhere. It's always ready to... I feel like it's always ready to explode. Yeah. And a little thing like, you're in my eye line and then you're aware of it. I don't really experience that when I'm shooting. Oh, good. Maybe because, I don't know why.

I mean, I have... Because you're nice? I have exploded on a set, but... You have? Yeah, but I have never seen... No, I've never talked to you before and you're a delight to talk to, but you just don't... I can't see you exploding. I don't explode.

I can explode. Really? Well, when it really gets... I guess. And what would make you explode? Maybe when the actors are... Unprepared? No, nothing like that.

Arrigan. Or if they just... There are certain actors that I've had a couple times, very rarely. Would that need you to explode or else they're not going to be happy? Wow. So they keep misbehaving just so you explode. And as soon as you explode, they're like really... happy and so i go oh that was it which ones who i'm not going to say come on some of the early ones

that you wouldn't know mad telling no no no not uh not films that you would have seen oh well malanoche you know this who malinocce was my first film no so there was a lead actor you know it was a very low budget film it was a 20,000 dollar film so the lead actor it's on criterion you can see it It's a film that exists. But Tim Streeter, he was from the theater. And his friends had told him, look, you know this filmmaker. He's never, the filmmaker, and he's never going to finish it. He's just wasting your time.

You? Me, the filmmaker. And so he acted like that for, you know, a week or something like that. Until finally I was, he was trying to like make a car like his. a mark, which is always really hard, and I was saying, no, just line it up with the rock that's on next to the tire, you know, that kind of stuff, until finally I was throwing rocks at his head because he was complaining. And it was from the day of before and the day before the day before. Throwing rocks in his head? Yeah, through the open window of the car. And didn't

hit him. Good. Good. And he had to get out. Your whole life could have taken a different turn. He had to get out and run away because I was still throwing the rocks and then I was like oh my god now my actor is going to quit and I found him in an orchard I sort of doubled around so I would like not I would corral him and I stopped him and I said I'm so so sorry and he was like no it's great it's fine great and I was like you're kidding you're happy now he's like yeah yeah and I was like all right okay what a gangster you are we didn't know all this side of you and you would have probably done the same thing are you also telling me that you've seen this syndrome again mm-hmm fuck what what but it's usually the actors that I think they need that

the certain just but what is the psychological providence of that I I've never heard of such they have to see the director is committed committed you know what I mean so it's commitment issues yeah so that I don't see like I'm committed like when I'm is it always men who do it or women too so far it's interesting maybe not maybe not I can't remember the four men did that but um yeah well I guess a director is kind of a daddy role yeah you have to be the dad you're the dad not a very good dad and discipline is love yeah one reason kids are so fucked up today is because we forgot that very essential part of human nature to a child discipline, not overdiscipline, not beating them and shit, but discipline

translates as love. And you have to be able to take your child's wrath because they will be mad at you and just take it. Modern parents are such pussies that they can't handle that. They can't handle their kid being mad at them. So they're constantly coddling them and mollifying them and kissing their ass and pretending they're just shorter adults whose opinion are just as valid, very, it's certainly worthy of debate, and they're not, they're stupid, they're like dogs, their children. To me, that's like the provenance of all our cultural slide, is that parents just fucked up their kids, and by the way, it fucked up their own life, because when you spoil your kid, no, your life is fucked. Because you're

their chauffeur, you're just always over them, you have no free time, they could, come first always my parents weren't like that well I doubt if yours were in that era right were you free range no I mean there was discipline right um yeah like Orson Wells used to fire somebody in the first day in front of everybody so it was the script person or the DP or so he would fire them loudly to scare the shit out of everyone would see and then they like continue that's kind of brilliant yeah I mean not good for the But again, you know, capitalism, I mean, what's more important that a scrub girl got her feelings hurt, I feel bad, or but we have Citizen Kane now?

Yeah. Or what do you think is Citizen Kane? I watch it like every five years hoping to find, not that it's bad, it's good, but hoping to find the thing in it that has always landed in it, like the number one greatest of all time. And you don't see it. I don't see it. Do you? Yeah, but I saw it when I was... No, do you see the thing that makes it that great?

You do. Tell me what it is. Yeah, I do because... But I started by watching it when I was 14 in English class. So we were, you know, watching a movie in English class, which is kind of like goofing off. You know, you get to see a movie in your class. I know. It was a progressive class.

And I think it was simple enough. like the you know the idea that there was this this word that he said when he died that this you're going to spend the whole movie looking for the secret and that nobody finds it but you see the spoiler alert sled at the end and you're like oh it's like his childhood was you know it's answered the question is answered but only you know the audience had a lot of charm to it and as a kid no that's definitely a great and then all the all the things in between the characterizations and him playing at 25 years old, playing like all these different ages. And also the Romano Clay, that it's really William Randolph Hearst. Yeah, plus the reality behind, yeah, exactly.

That's amazing. I mean, some of it is taken right from Hurst's biography. You know, you give me the, I'll give you the war if you give me, whatever. And then Rosebud was secretly on the DL, you know, on the down low. Who was? Well, the name Rosebud was the name of his lover's vagina that he had a pet name. Orson Wells. No, no, first.

Randolph Hurst. So it's just a little jab. Which one who's portrayed in the movie, the movie girl? Yeah, Marion Davies. Marion Davies. Yeah. And she wasn't that, I mean, the way they had her in the movie, she wasn't like the greatest piece of ass of all time. What was it that, like, enraptured him to her so much?

What was Rosebud? Oh, the pussy. She had like the magic pussy. Some chicks, too. Which is within the movie and within the jive to Hearst, who was like, you know, our Elon Musk or something. Yeah.

It just seemed so... Or Rupert Murdox. Subversive. Wow. That nine years old, I didn't know that part of it. Or it's 14 years old. But you quickly rejected it. But I think that people now...

like younger filmmakers can't quite get it's it's slipping off the list of number one pictures like my our age could appreciate 30 30s movies um late 30s movies and the kids now are like just uh it's like but i watch old movies frequently um and some of them do not hold up that's true i mean i was recently watching both What's Up Doc, which was a remake of Bringing Up Baby, and then tried to watch Bringing Up Baby. I've said it before, but it's a heavy lift to bring 1935 to

2025 to 2025. It just is. It's a century almost. And the remake in 72 or whatever with Peter Bogdanovich did it with Streisand and Ryan O'Neill is fantastic. It's fantastic. And that, yeah. And that's

I'm already, that's a 70, that's a very old movie, but not as old, and still sings with contemporary music. The other one, you know, it was just too, too ancient. But some of them, like Sunset Boulevard, totally holds up. Yeah, crackling, dialogue, cynicism. Billy Wilder, yeah. Yeah, Billy Wilder. Really had it.

You know, you can't ever get me off, gone with the wind. Oh, really? You don't like it? Um, it's one of those movies that I, well, I haven't seen it recently, so maybe I have to see it again to see whether it holds up. It's, um, it's, it has really good things about it that I like. Wasn't Scarlett a kind of a gay icon? No, I don't think so. Scarlett O'Hara?

I think so. Judy Garland. At Judy Garland, we know. And chair and stress. Not the gay world I traveled in. Really? Yeah. I thought she was because, you know, she was like, Survivor.

You know, like, I will never starve again. That's true. She should be. Research it. I think she kind of was. There's so many strong, like, female leads that are gay icons always, you know, like for every. She's the perfect one, though. Yeah.

Well, she probably is. Although, you know, maybe it's because she's kind of a cunt. Like, the movie really doesn't make sense because she's, she pines for the state. Stiff that Ashley Wilkes, who's like about as sexy as oatmeal, as someone once said of Doris Day. Yeah, that's true. And she's married to the bad boy. She should be married to the stiff and pining for the bad boy. That makes sense.

Maybe that's why I didn't like it that much. As much. But it just shows charisma and smart, snappy dialogue of very, very, you know, very. talented, good-looking, charismatic guy can make up for a lot. There's lots of movies that make no sense. Casablanca makes no sense. Frankly, I don't give a damn.

Oh, yeah. Which isn't as snappy today. Well, in 1939, it was, yeah, unbelievable, yeah. It was, they had to put it as the last line in the movie, the word damn, because otherwise people would have walked out.

So they put it at the very end when they're walking out anyway, which was kind of, that's so fucking gangster doing that. Like, okay, we're going to get this in. But yeah, can you imagine how, again, to ask a movie from 1935 to be relevant or interesting today when we're talking about an era when the word damn was so outrageous that people would leave a theater,

that's a big gap to try to bridge. Did you ever do a period piece? No, let's see. I think I was always stuck in the 70s. Most of the films were in the 70s. I guess that's a lot more work. Even the Dead Man's Wire, it's the 70s. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

But, no, I never, you know, I haven't ever done a period piece, and I wonder if I ever will. Probably at this point I won't. So, yeah, Dead Man's Wire is what years? Because you could tell by the... 77. 77. So I was 21.

I was at Cornell. I was not happy. but I didn't think about putting a shotgun to my head but I don't remember that story see when you yeah me neither I think that it was probably oh you don't remember it at the time no somebody brought this to you and

yeah I think if you're re scouring the papers it would be in the papers but today it would be the most viable thing in the world a guy with a shotgun yeah like attached to his head because another guy Because the first thing I thought of was Luigi Mangoni, which is so relevant today. I mean, I hope your movie company is advertising it that way because they should.

This was Luigi before Luigi. This is a guy who fucked over by the system and money and the people with the, again, capitalism. It's not an untrue criticism. Capitalism does fuck people. It's the nature of it. the mortgage company, I mean, real estate in general is, you know, favored by the government because it's some progress. You know what the holidays really give us? About 40 extra decisions a day. Gifts, travel,

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It's emotionally unstable. Lunatic in the newsroom. Listen today. Building. Look at just in our business, how many people have had to get the money, the studio owed them, sue them. like this almost audit them and sue

you know it's almost like accepted that they're just not going to give you the money they rightfully owe you they're going to have accountants and fucking asshole lawyers have you pretend that have you audited and actually had cash come just pouring out

or sued no because I'm not in your business I'm a salaried employee mostly you know but in the movie business you can have points and such, such, and so even if the movie's a big hit, they will find a way to say, well, it wasn't. You know, we had to spend money on whatever it is.

They're lying, and then you sue them, and then you get your money. But that's, again, the nature of our system. It's just like... Yeah, the movie business is like that. It's doggy dog. It's kind of a recapitulation of nature, you know. I mean, if I was God and inventing the universe and life,

I don't think I'd have the system be, well, everything's trying to kill each other. That's the nature of it. When I eat meat, and I am a PETA person, but when I do, I don't feel that bad because it's not like I'm doing something to an animal that they don't do to each other. But why design a system where, like, everything is whole?

always trying to kill each other if you're starting from scratch you know why the hunger game is for everything out there the hawk is trying to eat the mouse and the mouse is trying to eat the lizard and the lizard is trying to eat the yeah it's just the way it happens if you just let it go it's the worst system yeah it's just why it's cruel but even the little if you look at um single cell organisms they're trying to eat each other they are like yeah Are you sure? Are you sure? Yeah, they're like biting and like consuming each other.

Really? I didn't think, I guess how does it get nutrients? I mean, maybe there's other ways, but like... Are you saying amoebas are cannibals? They'll eat their own... I mean, in certain cases, I don't think, I don't know if every single cell organisms are cannibals, but certainly some of them are. And what's your religious take, if that's not too personal? I mean, do you have a religion?

Are you an atheist, agnostic? Are you spiritual? Yeah, I have a take. Yeah. I mean, I might as well bet my take is that we aren't smart enough ourselves to figure it out, to know what it is. It's exactly my take. Everybody's trying to figure it out. But you never, you don't because as soon as you die, it's like, oh, that's what's going on.

Whatever you think it could be, it's not going to be that. It's just not going to be us figuring out. I could not agree more. I say it all the time that religious people have this imagination, this thought in their head that there's, I picture a wall. And on the other side of the wall is the answer to what happens when you die. And if they just jump a little higher, they'll see over the wall. But they don't realize that the wall is a million miles high. I feel like I am an agnostic.

I think that there is something. It's the same thing as an atheist. It is. It's just very similar. atheists are saying there isn't anything no atheists are not atheists it's just as darken says atheism just means a theism it's just you are theists you believe in gods we don't it doesn't mean without theism we're saying we know we just saying we don't do that and he always says you know in ancient times they believed in hundreds of gods and then it got down to one

and we just took away that last one. Right. But a lot of your stuff is about mortality. I mean, you do seem to think, including this last one, is really, again, a guy with a shotgun to his head. It's like you do seem to think about death a lot in your pictures. No?

Yeah. Am I wrong about that? I do. I think as a convention, as a, you know, know, conflict that the characters have to face, it's compelling as a story device. And it's also, I think, compelling in life, you know, like, in general. But, so that's probably why. I don't think it's by design either.

I think I've adapted a lot of pieces that are by people that are thinking about death, not necessarily myself. I mean, I was going to say, the older we get, the more it's on our mind, but then I realized, no, wait a second. I thought about death more and a lot in a much more serious way when I was 19, when I was first off to college and my life sucked. And no girls, no, it was cold, you know, a new place, no friends, really. It was just bleak. And, of course, if I could have gotten laid once, I would have stopped. being suicidal but I mean death was on my mind in a way it hasn't been since and that's young

so it kind of is never not on your mind like the Woody Allen movie where the you know seven-year-old is upset and they ask him why and he says oh yeah the universe is expanding says don't talk about stuff like that mom gets mad at him as a seven-year-old yeah I think it's in radio days yeah he was here recently really yeah cool um what a it's funny prolific yo so funny

I mean you ever listen to those early albums really funny yeah I mean do you remember when he came on the scene because you would have been around that age that would be very interesting he was really popular in the 60s oh yeah

he represented like hippie culture kind of there was three artists who came about almost at the exact same time all of whom stricant Bob Dylan and Woody Allen, all of whom were, I don't think people can imagine, yeah, you can, Taylor Swift certainly was on that level, but like really took over pop culture and changed it. And a couple

of years after that, Muhammad Ali in sports, I don't know if people know. I mean, again, this is a little before my time to understand it while it was happening, but soon after I was, it wasn't that long ago that I could oh wow that was so cool and Muhammad Ali was cool to me and um it was a very fervent time for like and Kennedy in office was a very big breath of fresh air the youngsters were taking over the Kennedy being young youngish yes but I feel like took over and made it better maybe that's my nostalgia whereas I don't know if I would trust the young people to take over today. I mean, I don't know if I can. And they will anyway. Oh, they probably have already. I mean, you know, it's inevitable. But they have some just really screwy ideas. I mean, when I see them marching

with the kaffayas for Hamas and like, wow, you somehow found your way to championing the most oppressive people in the world in the name of how much you hate oppression. And like, I don't know if I can trust that mind that learned everything on TikTok to take over. And it's one reason why, by the way, the Democrats get accused of being geriatric, Nancy Pelosi and Biden.

Yeah, they are. And part of it is because they don't trust their own young people. The young people on the left are kind of crazy. The young ones on the right are just like, I mean, they're goofballs, they're bros, you know, like love the,

macho shit like blowing up boats but yeah they're dangerous but there there is a kookiness on the left what is what like manjuni like that yeah i mean they they think communism is worth another try because again they didn't learn anything in school the schools failed them stopped teaching them shit whatever they get through tic-tok is filtered through somebody's agenda, maybe China, maybe, you know, just some woke people, maybe on other sites like Trump's truth social, it's the other way, it's just mega things, nobody's getting the full story. So, you know, I don't, what's swimming around in their brain was not shaped by the school system dispassionately as it was in our day. I mean, I don't remember any politics in school. They were

not indoctrinating me into anything at any level including at Cornell just teaching me just educating me what about the other students though would they oppose to the war and getting dropped you know that's the interesting you said that's the one moment I remember where there was a little politics there was at a history teacher mr. jager or yager I forget but we He kind of knew he was kind of like a Bill O'Reilly, you know, kind of, that's how I think of him, you know, conservative. But again, it was very, it was not overt. And there was a mass demonstration or something against the Vietnam War in 1969. And I think we were talking about it in class, which we didn't used to do.

Somehow it came up and we could tell he cast a dim view. of protesting what the government was doing in Vietnam. But that's about the only... What about McCarthy? McCarthyism. Joseph McCarthy? Yeah. Well, that's... And Roy Kahn.

I mean, that's way before my time. But I mean, we could have studied that or we would know about it in school. I don't remember ever studying it, but you can only imagine that something like that today could never be studied dispassionally. Somebody would be like Whitaker Chambers, And the other one would be like, who was the other guy, Whitaker Chambers, and the guy who had the secrets in the pumpkin.

Remember, that whole scandal? Yeah. Oh, the Rosenbergs, you know, the same era. Yeah, they seemed like chafted by Roycon. You think? So you think the Rosenbergs did not pass secrets to the Russians? I think that, yeah, I think that just knowing Roy Cohn, no. Or knowing about Roy Cone, I never knew him personally.

Did you see The Apprentice? Yes. So great, right? That's really great. That's a great movie. And a great portrayal. I mean, usually, now that is a fun movie, even if the performances weren't so great, which they both were. but normally I can't enjoy a movie if there's just a great performance you know yeah you need the

context some people you know to me it's like a guitar solo it's like it's like it's got to be I like the song you need the song yeah of course but I feel like I don't think there is such a thing as like just a great performance what do you mean a movie that is known for only the performance without like what the performer is supposedly performing. Really? Yeah, that it has to have a basis. I mean, it could be something simple, but... I bet you could find one, but you may be right.

I mean, Lenny, that Dustin Hoffman did, I thought it was a great performance. I don't think it was a great... The movie wasn't a good movie. You're right. You know, actually, I don't think that... Yeah. Fortunately, Dustin Hoffman, who's still alive...

You say, unfortunately, that he's still alive? Unfortunately, no, no, no. He's still alive. Oh, I thought you had beats with him. Unfortunately, he's not funny. He's funny, like, as a character in The Graduate, but he can't deliver a joke. But to me... In Lenny.

That is... So, every single time... You're right. He's going, I liked it. And it's not funny. When Lenny does it, it's fantastic. As a comedian. Because you have that footage of Lenny really doing it.

We hate it when people play comedians because you can't play it. It always looks bad. You're right. But the context of Lenny also was kind of fabulous that he was trying to just allow language to live in the open as opposed to like the seven words. He's a great pioneer. I stand upon his shoulders.

The fact that I could have spent my life traveling around this country saying whatever the fuck I wanted in theaters from Mobile Alabama to Maine, and nobody ever threatened to barge into that auditorium and arrest me because I was saying pussy and cunt and fuck and fuck Trump or whatever it was. That I owe to somebody. And if people don't know, that was not the case in the 60s.

He was arrested nine times. I think he had six trials. I mean, he was always fighting the law. I mean, we basically had blasphemy laws. It's crazy. On his own, too. He just, he was the one man. Right.

Band, kind of decided that these words should be said. And thoughts. Not just words, concepts. Yes. Questioning religion. Nobody talked about, you know, sex in a raw way, like anal sex. That was just something that, even the edgiest comic. Mm-hmm.

And certainly Morty Gunty and Jackie Mason were not talking about fisting. And, you know, it was. And he just went. And he did. where no man feared tread you know he was but funny you know you know i mean just the performance of Dustin as Lenny but then Lenny himself was just innately i mean he maybe he learned how to be that way but he he um was definitely funny delivery you think Lenny Bruce was yeah see when i've listened to the records

The pacing is so different than today. Again, times they just change. They do, folks. It's just so much slower before he gets to something sometimes. And we have been trained, including me, I think, and certainly the way I did comedy, you know, I would just never let that long a time elapse before I got to something that was making people laugh.

And towards the end, he's reading his transcripts from that. And then there's that. there's that but he's definitely was fast he was yeah depending on which recording but um just reading the the book lenny bruce ladies ladies and gentlemen lenny bruce yeah is like just the history of the you know new york comedy scene and all the bars and the guys that own the bars and the comedians that like danger fields and um the comedians that they were uh stealing from, you know, their material from, the table comics that couldn't go on the stage, but, like, Lenny could learn from them and, like, actually present them on, you know,

impersonate them. He might not have had, like, his own funny soul, but he adapted it, you know, and in that book, they're sort of describing him coming back from San Francisco, and all of a sudden he was this full-blown comedian. Yeah, he was a rock star to a certain group. but I feel like in that era again we're talking about late 50s you know that

I mean he was you know sort of the John the Baptist for the ones who came a little later like Woody Allen who became the stars but then in the 50s it would be like jazz and then like a comic and then some more jazz you know they would like trade off

the comics were always kind of there yeah the beatniks weren't the beatniks like Durante people like that Jimmy Duranty? Jimmy Duranty, yeah. With what? He'd be on stage, you know, between the jazz acts. Oh.

You know, and the jazz, the comic comedian club or the jazz clubs were, you know, partly, like, comedy. And then the beatniks weren't even, they were maybe listening to the jazz, but they didn't seem to figure into the comedy. There was a show called Dobie Gillis. Mm-hmm. You remember that? Yes, really well. Okay.

I was just when I first was watching TV I didn't think I got it all and maybe he was on a little too late for me but my recollection was college kids and there was a character Maynard G. Krebs played by Bob Denver who later became Gilligan and I think he was the beatnik right and it was like

yeah the hipster beatnik yeah and that was like you know it was like when you look at it we're talking about 59 60 or something like that like that was this weird new thing and you could see that there was this in a new generation you know just the seeds of an idea that 10 years later with the hippies yeah then it would full flower you know free love and the women's movement and i mean certainly when i was first you know thinking about girls

um free love was just like a really new thing yeah like they would like really you could you could fuck this girl without marrying her you know it was a very new exciting idea yeah very exciting to me because i wanted to both fuck and not marry love the one you're with love the one you're with yes lyrics to like yeah that's jefferson airplane or something no no that's stephen stills steven stills okay i think maybe with buffalo springfield yeah exactly something like that well you must you were at an age when you could have actually so you could have gone to woodstock i was 13 I was on my way. I was 16. No.

You were going to go to Woodstock? Yeah, but I had a job in New York, and I couldn't leave until Friday afternoon, and by Friday afternoon, it was a national, it was a disaster area. And the forces, you know, the president was flying in food and water because, and we were still going to go. My friend and I were going to hop in a car and drive to Woodstock, which was only a couple of hours from Connecticut. But 16? You didn't ask your mother, or you didn't have to, or she said, go? No, they said, you're not going there. And on the news, you could see the footage of, like, the sea of people.

And we said, well, we're going to meet, you know, Jim and Tim, they're in front of the stage. We got to meet them. And my parents were just refused to let us go. So we listened to the parents because we thought, yeah, it is kind of like an odd, you know, natural disaster. But you went, you said. No, we didn't go. I was on my way. Oh, I see.

But I was stopped. So what's your got your eye on next? And now this movie, hopefully we'll get the Oscar recognition it deserves. The lead guy certainly should get something. He's great. So I don't know him. Bill Scarsguard? I know the other Scarsguards.

He was kind of new to me. He was the lead and it. He was it. It was the guy in the sewer. Is that the one about the clown? Yeah, it's more like for almost for kids. But he was the scary guy in it. But he's done a lot of work, and I had seen him in a number of films,

and I just thought he was great. I'd worked with his dad in Goodwill Hunting. Stellan. Love him. Love him. He is. I think he's up for something. Yeah, their movie is up for Golden Globes.

Because I said to, I saw my friend Sean Penn on Thanksgiving, and I said, you are definitely going to win for, what's the name? Absolutely, I agree. What's that movie? One battle after another. Which I liked. I loved him, and it took me a while to figure out, oh, yeah, he's going to win because who else is going to, he's perfect. Well, he's going to win.

First of all, he's a great actor. There's no doubt about that. he's also like somebody who is woke approved so that's good and then the movie is woke approved so that's good for the academy and also icing on the cake at the end of the movie spoiler alert he is horribly disfigured and so he does the last two scenes with a super fucked up face Oscar I think we have to look any further so he had to make room on the shelf like he's at that age where they want to give him a victory lap and he deserves it And even if he wasn't, it is a great performance. It's like, you don't have to apologize for it. All these things make it easy to give it to him, but it also is an awesome performance. And it's supporting.

He plays the bad guy in a movie that liberals like, which is like, oh, great. Somebody had to do that. Somebody had to step up and take a bullet and be the bad guy, be the conservative. I wonder if he knew that going in, probably. Sean knows everything. But he definitely is just, you know,

He's just, you know, one of those actors that comes along, you know, maybe, you know, one or two in a generation who just kills every part. You can't take your eyes off him. And maybe it's because, you know, as a person, he is, I always say, Sean will never find a movie part that is as interesting as his own life. You know, everybody else in this town is a phony who talks and talks and talks, and he walks the walk. He goes to Syria, he gets people out of prison. He goes to Katrina. You know, he is the most interesting man in the world. Have you gone with him?

What? Have you gone with him? Fuck, no. I told him, I don't go anywhere east of La Brea. Okay, I'm not Mr. I'm not hero man. He is. Great. You know, I don't feel bad for him.

It's an old saying, don't pity the martyr. He likes his job. Yeah. You know, he likes doing it. And he's good at it. And he's a man of action at El Chapo. that all that is just insane this guy's life that's right so for him to find a part that's like interesting like that like in that again spoiler alert when he has to like get a heart on

just from looking at this girl at his age good luck with that and I say that as a over-sex heterosexual but it was I mean I assume that was the part of it where I'm supposed to say and I did say, and I was happy to say, this is a black comedy. Wouldn't you say it's a black comedy, that movie? Yeah. So it's to die for. To die for is as well.

Totally. Maybe my most favorite genre. Yeah, it's a great... I mean, also one battle after another is not just a black comedy, so otherwise I think it might be in trouble, but it's like really easy for the studio, or not easy, but it...

It gets by, and it, you know, it's going to win the Oscar. You think. Star 4 never had a chance. It was too dark. Really? Yeah. Too dark. Wow.

I mean, especially for the studio. They wanted to sell it as a romantic comedy. And they tested it as a romantic comedy. And the tests were, like, really low, like 30% or something like that. And they couldn't figure out why. Yeah. I guess it gets harder and hard. in the age of spandex and AI and shit

to sell people on, you know, thoughtful stories, you know, like the one you have up now that's like, you know, about something, but still entertaining, you know. I don't wanna watch a movie and just be sad. I did a piece one year about the Debbie's, Debbie Downer, you know, because all the movies were like super downer, remember Nomad Land and, you know.

It's one thing to make me think, but don't make me go home and want to get in the bathtub with the toaster, okay? That won the Oscar, though. Of course, because the Academy changed from having the Oscars be a ceremony that was about, look at what good pictures we make, to look at what good people we are. I mean, I saw the list for the Golden Globes. I'm sure there's some great movies there. I hadn't heard of a number of them. The only one I heard of, for sure, I think,

was the one we were just talking about. Other ones were like... One battle after another... Yeah, and then it was like something from Brazil, maybe Korea, Iran, you know, like... I'm sure these are great movies, but they're not exactly the crowd-pleasers that, you know... And, you know...

Yeah. I'm debating whether to go to the Golden Globe, I'm nominated nominated for my stand-up special. Oh, excellent. Congratulations. Yeah, thanks. I've never had a great experience with award shows, and I think, I just think the whole thing is kind of barbaric,

the way they get these people who are needy, and certainly no one is needier than show people, to like, sit there and like, please say you like me. And it's like, you know, I've had that mentality the first 25 times or whatever they nominated me. And it's like, okay, you know what, I get it. I'm not award show bait exactly, you know, kind of like with your to die for a thing with what you were saying. But so like why torture yourself and, you know, be in a room where you're put into, it's just. I love the expressions, right?

People, they have the stills of all the contestants, the people up for the award. Nominees, you mean? Nominees. We're not contestants, Gus, for Christ's sake. Treat us like animals? Is that what you think of us? We're contestants? Well, you're right.

But one of them wins, but all four of the other nominees, they have to do something. So sometimes they look sad. But a lot of times they're like great and you know they don't mean it they're actors They're acting yeah it's it's well see that would be number problem number one I'm sure I'll never win and when I lose I'm not an actor So I just be like fuck let's get out of here because that's what I would be saying is like okay Yeah, let's go I came I lost and you know let me let me get out of here It is tempting because I have lost over 20 Emmys. I lost at the Grammys for a spoken word.

I was almost nominated for an Oscar for my documentary religiousists, and they felt so bad about not nominating me. They asked me to give out the award. I was the presenter. So I'll count that as losing an Oscar. And also a Tony and a stand-up on a show. a stand-up on Broadway that was nominated, didn't win that. So I would be like the anti-Egot if I also could somehow not win the Golden Globe.

I could have a full panoply of a total empty shelf, which is, but you're going to win or not. I mean, first of all, I resent the words win when we talk about award shows. because they say it in the same way they talk about sporting events but it's not the same when the Eagles won the Super Bowl it's because they actually beat the other team it's not somebody's opinion

that they beat the Chiefs they actually did it this is just somebody's opinion it's just a vote it's like a political but anyway I hope you win I hope you're nominated and you win all these awards because you know if you do

suddenly the money gets easier to get, don't you think? Yes. Even if you're, like, coming close to it, the attention, yeah, is good. That's why it's, you know, again, it's just ridiculous where they talk about it, like he won, like God proclaimed. No, some people thought that was good.

Lots of others didn't. Okay. But it affects the actual commerce. Yeah. And you know, the whole thing, the Oscars were started because the actors wanted to unionize and Louis B. Mayor said,

to distract them he said hang the metals on them oh wow and they'll forget about it i didn't know that yeah 20s or yeah or maybe the 30s probably the 30s 30s um well no because it started in the late 20s i think the first one was 29 or something wow didn't wings one win the first yeah yeah that's 20s the Howard Howard um Howard Hughes movie what is yeah Howard Hughes that's right it's depicted in Gorsese's biography of him, right? Where he shoots the planes. And then he's like, oh, we got to throw it all the way. We need clouds.

Because without the clouds, people don't see, they have nothing to see how fast the planes are going. It doesn't look real. You got to love that. Good old Howard. Well, just that kind of dedication. Yeah, that there are people like that. And he had the dollars to do it, just redo it.

Yeah. Are you always an on-budget guide? Yeah, I just stay on the budget. They trust you to be on-time and on-budget? They, I think technically they can't just trust you. I think the insurance companies have to, like, draw blood. Plenty of movies have gone over time and over budget. Yeah, if you're in a studio, I went to die for, for instance.

There were so many little bits that I was afraid that we didn't have enough days. and I was not, I was edging back from signing the contract because you have to sign this promise that you will keep on budget. And I couldn't, I couldn't guarantee. So I didn't want to sign it. So I called the president, I think I got, wasn't the president, it was Amy Pascal, who was a vice president. And I said, Amy, I can't sign this because I can't guarantee with all these.

She says, you know what happens if you go over budget? And I said, no, what happens? They said, we fly over there. We tell you to stop and be on budget, and then we fly away. And like, that's the whole, and you keep working. And they're just going to. They don't fire you. But what are they going to?

So they're just going to give you more money. And tell you not to, you know, abuse the money they're giving you. But they're not just going to eat the money that they've already invested in this. Yeah, they won't. In a way. They'll slap your wrist and then that's it. Right. So you told me it's okay to sign, so I just signed it.

It's kind of like the old thing about if you owe somebody like a small amount of money, it's a debtor, but if it's a lot amount of money, it's a partner. Yeah. You know, they can't, they don't want to eat this, so they kind of have to. Yeah. But there are stories about directors who kept, I mean, Kubrick on Eyes Wide Shut, I think kept Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman for like a year. More time than they thought.

Than they thought. Yeah. And he didn't pay him more money. Really? No, it doesn't, yeah, everyone, that's the thing about Kubrick films. Everyone's working on a flat fee, but there's no guarantee of how long it's going to be the crew, too. Wow. So I think there could be trouble sometimes on his films.

But I think that Nicole and Tom probably were like, you know, we believe in this filmmaker and we're making something good. Well, it was, they were invested. It was Kubrick. Yeah. Kubrick, after all the amazing movies he did. Yeah. So he had power. I could see why they thought this is a one.

once in a lifetime opportunity. I bet you they don't regret it. No, I don't think so either. You know, even with all the, it put them through. You either go with it, or you can just laugh at it. I mean, it's so over the top. If people don't remember, like, again, it could be a dream sequence. Yeah.

But he stumbles upon this secret society of, you know, the rich, powerful men. And what they do is they get together at this awesome mansion. And there's like hundreds of people. like hundreds of people there and the men are wearing masks and it's very ritualized and there's all these beautiful girls naked walking around they have the mask on and they have like a holding a staff with the ritual of this you know and there's ceremonies and it's sort of semi satanic and he doesn't belong there because you have to be he snuck in he snuck in and this is but and it he goes upstairs and

it's just room after room of people and they're fucking in the background and whatever it's just You know, it's guys, rich guys getting laid. You don't really need to rent a mansion and get massed to do it. Okay. But it was a Vienn, you know, a Viennese version of it in the, you know, in the 30s, 40s. Epstein's the junior power monger that had sex rings with teenage girls and powerful men. We don't know that as a fact.

We don't know that. They weren't powerful men. Oh, they were powerful? Well, are we talking about what we know as a fact? Yeah. What we, like Bill Clinton, if he was here, he'd be getting blown. No. If he was here, he would say, yes, you have the logs.

I was on Epstein Island, but did I ever, you know, get more than a massage? There's a picture of him getting massage. He's got his clothes on, but there is a girl behind him massaging him. Maybe that's all there was to it. We don't know for a fact. Being Bill Clinton, who Hillary herself once described as a hard, dog to keep on the porch. Right.

I can imagine there was a little shenanigans. Yeah. And certainly Epstein was having sex. He himself was having sex with underage girls and deserved to go to prison. Not every guy that walked in the door. Like Woody, I'm not sure. Prince Andrew, yes. Yes.

We know that for sure. The guys we don't like, they are like, yes. And the guys would do like, no, they wouldn't have done that. No, I'm not saying that. They're all dirty dogs. They all would do it. Anybody who was on Sex Island, you know, at least a 50-50. Alan Dershowitz, Bill Gates.

You know, I always said this about Epstein. When there's a guy who's like super rich and you don't know what he does, he's a pimp. And guys like Bill Gates who are nerds who are the opposite, they need a friend like. Epstein yeah that's what it is it's not because he's some financial genius right did you read did you read the emails to him and back because he's like this this love guru yeah to these men who are asking him advice like who's the dude at Harvard the Larry Summers I think out there he was the Treasury secretary under some obamas you know very powerful

powerful guy, still as a voice on the economy. But he's writing, you know, dear Jeff, what, there's this Asian girl in the office who I think likes me. How do I make my move, signed, frustrated in, on Wall Street? You know, what the fuck is this? There's like all the exchanges of money, though, as well that goes along with those messages and letters. Money. Money. Yeah.

that appears in Epstein's. Either he's a good investor or they're just... Oh, I see, yeah. Well, I don't think he was a bad investor, but I think he probably was doing something a lot of people could do, but he had this extra side game that was like, you know,

invest with me and you'll get, you know, 4.5 return. Invest with this guy, you'll get 5.5, but with me you'll also get blonde. Right. You know, this is like, okay but that would be a good subject for you yes I know really you would do that well I mean until the all the he dies at the end yeah the oh the death is so

interesting too yes how little it was investigated and how they just were like okay he what's your judgment on that killed himself somebody like did you think somebody did it I think somebody did it yeah yeah I mean until everything sort of in it's hard to really make the story it's halfway i mean i from the photos i saw i'm just speaking for myself yeah i'm not exactly a boy scout but i don't know how i could if i wanted to kill myself in that situation yeah i mean maybe he was great with the sailors not i i know i didn't seem to be enough room to do i'm with you yeah you know so but all Also, people are, I don't know, I don't care, but, all right, so what, so if you're not going to do that, and we're not going to do the remake with Sabrina Carpenter, because you once did a remake, you did Psycho.

Yeah, I loved it. Loved it. You did? Oh, very much. I remember it vividly. Yeah. It was a sort of proposal. Vince Vaughn was perfect.

Yeah, he's, he's a little creepy. I like him, but, I mean, he's got the factor. He has a side. He has a side. But I was making that mostly because I was, whenever, when I was starting out with drugstore cowboy, the actors were sort of wanting to work with you.

So that meant the studios wanted you to direct something because they knew the actors would go with something that you would direct. Of course. So I would have meetings at studios, really based because of actors, not so much because Drugs for Cabway did well, which it didn't really do well. So I was always in Casey Silver's office at Universal, who had Psycho. And, you know, every year or two, whenever a film would come out, the actors would go, like,

we want to work with Gus. And so Casey would call me and say, let's get something going. You know, you can, and he introduced me to people that handle the library of the, films you could you you could make a film from an old script that Billy Wilder wrote that hadn't been done you know that kind of thing or you could remake one of the library pieces and I was at the time in the 90s early 90s they were remaking everything from the Brady bunch to the Flintstones they were remaking because audience recognized those characters and they would be drawn to it and in those two films you know of course the kids could go too

but i said you know why don't you really remake the film instead of kind of remake it changing the ending because they always changed the dark ending from the old movies because the old movies had darker endings than our 90s movies and they would just laugh and say no we won't be doing that anytime soon and then next time i went same thing i said How about, like, how about we do this? Because they seem to want to do anything with me. So, Psycho, remake it, you know, don't change anything about it. Just the actors will be different.

Copy every shot. And they would laugh at me. And then Goodwell Hunting was coming out. And it was the awards, it was nominated for like 10 Academy Awards. So all the studios, they want to get those people sort of signed up to something. so that if you win they can lean over and say we've got his next film

I think that's the reason they want you is just really so they could do that well your superpower is that the stars want to work with you yeah that's why I was even involved because that especially going back in time

I mean still today to a degree but there are less people who they themselves can open a movie but going back I mean the star had all the power and so if the star wants the director now you have the part yeah I mean the stars want two things they want a script that makes them look good you know or challenges them or you know it's interesting depends on how much power they have and how much they're willing to

you know risk their career certainly some of them are like no I'm not playing anyone who the audience doesn't see as a hero you know and there are other ones who want to go in the opposite direction and be challenged whatever it is they need the script and they need the stockholders when they asked the studio head to say how could you make that decision and you would they would have an out of course it's like you know because george cloning wanted it okay yeah right so um but it's a good tribute that they like that they like i was like being set up at different studios and so at the last minute um universal called my agent and said they just they want to know if there's a movie that you you can say you would

do with them just before you know like in case tomorrow you win and i was and then i said of course universal casey silver like psycho don't change anything you know uh copy it and the stars will be different but keep it the same and the answer was we think that's brilliant let's make it as opposed to laughing at me every other year and i was like oh shit they really want to do it he's saying that this town is full of a bunch of phonies guys Yes. I don't burst my bubble. That's not... But then the onus was on me because then they said yes.

And I was like, oh, shit, I have to actually do it. And certain people were saying, you know, that you'll be killed by the critics. And I thought, well, maybe that's okay. Maybe that's... I can live through that. Critics don't matter. Stars matter. And the fact that they like you, that's what matters.

You know, the fact that they feel like they're in safe hands. And, you know, I mean, it's, there's a million ways a movie can get fucked up. But certainly right from the beginning is a director who doesn't know what he's doing. And I'm sure if you're in, I've been on sets with the director who I didn't think was good. And it's like every day is kind of a slog because you're fighting against the person who's making the thing. And it's just, you just kind of know from the beginning it's doomed. No, you know, they have to, you know, and especially in the days with women when they didn't feel safe, always with the director you know I mean there's some bad stories about you know just it was

the industry was misogynistic up until very recently I don't think people dare try what they used to get away with you know they used to call you know in the 30s like George Kukar you know a gay director was called a woman's director mm-hmm he's yeah he could bring it because probably Catherine Hepburn was like please get me this guy he's not going to to chase me around like, you know, Louis B. Mayor was, you know, wasn't Judy Garland even pressed into service for the four o'clock blowjob that the studio heads got? I mean, that's a real thing. Yeah, no, I understand. Yeah. Especially, yeah, mayor. Oh, they were bad. But,

you know, we didn't do it. We don't have to answer. So what is the next project? Can you Give us a hint. There isn't really an... What are you want to do? I have to sort of choose from a bunch of things that are possibilities. So there's not really a project right now. All right. Well, whatever it is, I will look forward to it.

I wish you great, good luck at the Oscars. You certainly deserve a victory lap. Great, thank you. And I hope everybody sees Dead Man's Wire. It's really good. Cool. Thank you so much, sir. Thank you.

crazy place. Thank you. All right. Club Random. Take a picture with me? Sure. Okay. Club Randall.

Clairondon