Club Random with Bill Maher - John Malkovich | Club Random with Bill Maher

Episode Date: December 1, 2025

Bill Maher kicks back with John Malkovich for a candid conversation that jumps from Death of a Salesman and his new series Bad Monkey to his unexpected love of classical-music collaborations—and why so much theater ends up “a misery.” Malkovich opens up about his Leave-It-to-Beaver childhood, his 82nd Airborne environmentalist father, getting beaten as a kid, and the lingering feeling he’ll never quite measure up. Along the way, he and Bill veer into AI, driverless cars, nightmare hotels, and that golden window of being born after antibiotics but before the robots take over, with a detour to a great story about how Con Air came to be, as well as Bill’s unabashed love for In the Line of Fire. Subscribe to the Club Random YouTube channel: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/c/clubrandompodcast?sub_confirmation=1⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Watch episodes ad-free – subscribe to Bill Maher’s Substack: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://billmaher.substack.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the podcast for free wherever you listen: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/ClubRandom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Support our Advertisers: Upgrade your wardrobe and save on @trueclassic at ⁠https://www.trueclassic.com/RANDOM⁠ ! #trueclassicpod #ad Get 30% off your first purchase and free shipping at http://wonderballsusa.com/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=wbaudiolaunch2025&utm_term=clubrandomwithbillmaher&utm_content=weekof12/1read Buy Club Random Merch: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://clubrandom.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices ABOUT CLUB RANDOM Bill Maher rewrites the rules of podcasting the way he did in television in this series of one on one, hour long conversations with a wide variety of unexpected guests in the undisclosed location called Club Random. There’s a whole big world out there that isn’t about politics and Bill and his guests—from Bill Burr and Jerry Seinfeld to Jordan Peterson, Quentin Tarantino and Neil DeGrasse Tyson—talk about all of it.  For advertising opportunities please email: [e-mail] ABOUT BILL MAHER Bill Maher was the host of “Politically Incorrect” (Comedy Central, ABC) from 1993-2002, and for the last fourteen years on HBO’s “Real Time,” Maher’s combination of unflinching honesty and big laughs have garnered him 40 Emmy nominations. Maher won his first Emmy in 2014 as executive producer for the HBO series, “VICE.” In October of 2008, this same combination was on display in Maher’s uproarious and unprecedented swipe at organized religion, “Religulous.” Maher has written five bestsellers: “True Story,” “Does Anybody Have a Problem with That? Politically Incorrect’s Greatest Hits,” “When You Ride Alone, You Ride with Bin Laden,” “New Rules: Polite Musings from a Timid Observer,” and most recently, “The New New Rules: A Funny Look at How Everybody But Me Has Their Head Up Their Ass.” FOLLOW CLUB RANDOM https://www.clubrandom.com https://www.facebook.com/Club-Random-101776489118185 https://twitter.com/clubrandom_ https://www.instagram.com/clubrandompodcast https://www.tiktok.com/@clubrandompodcast FOLLOW BILL MAHER https://www.billmaher.com https://twitter.com/billmaher https://www.instagram.com/billmaher Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome aboard via rail. Please sit and enjoy. Please sit and sip, play, post, taste. Taste. Mm. View and enjoy. Via Rail, love the way. Whole stage, wooden stage, on fire.

Since it was opening night, did they think that was what was supposed to happen in the play? They always think that. Club random. Now you're the older guy. I'm the older guy, but I'm not. I mean, you're running out of people who are older than us. Yeah. Club Randall.

Hi. Hey, man. How I? How are you just? Just had a sprint. From my studio. Yeah. Jesus.

What's the hurry? You, when I told me, I mean, I never do a show on Friday because I tape my show from four to five. I've never run out of that studio like a bat out of hell like I did tonight. Jesus, oh. No, no. I'm such an admirer. I haven't seen you in years, but you know, I'm just... I was just thinking.

The last time, do you know, I think the last time I saw you was also the last time I saw Chris Wolkin. Christopher Walken? Yeah, at a party, which was for something I have no idea what. Out here? Out in L.A., out here, at the Beverly Hills Hotel, but outside. Yeah. And I have no idea what it was for or anything like that. I never go to stuff like that.

I never know. That was like kind of 20 years ago, I think. Long time ago. I have so much stuff. Some of it's in this room that, you know, people say to me, where'd you get that? And I'm like, I don't know. Well, I'm going to be one of those people. What about the...

The Supremes? Yeah. That, I know where I got. Who did this? That's, no, he did it. That's a poster that was inside their album. See, that fits inside an old LP. Oh, my God.

And a triptic. Wow, of this fantastic. Isn't that fantastic? Beautiful. Yeah. I wondered whether it was to remind me a painter from Chicago, but he mostly did sport people. I called, I think, Tim Anderson. It's a very similar vein to what he did.

I mean, memory is such a funny thing the way whole swaths of time will, like, be gone for me. And then, like, the slightest little detail, the slightest little moment that seems to have no significance. Like, why do I remember in 1978 when somebody said to me, you know, all the things you put out for snacks or cheese? Yeah. Cheese is not important in my life.

And yet I remember that kid saying that. Why? Why? I have no theory on that. Do you? No, not so much in theory. I think it's secretly somehow significant? Well, I don't know.

I'd say why. Was this a friend? I just remember in college. I mean, I could pick so many examples like that, but just like a moment where somebody said something and you'd just be hard for us to find why it was significant, but it just stuck in your mind when so many things, and then there's so many things where like,

I wish I could remember, why did it's so significant? Why don't I remember what, you know, losing my virginity was like? It's just very vague. Yeah, yeah. No, I have no idea. I remember very strange things as well and I have a pretty good memory all in all but I tend to remember

I can see a photo from 40 years ago and kind of remember yeah that was there at this point blah blah yada yada but I always think I don't much remember my life before I had children Really? Yeah. Not too much. Because your life takes on a dimension of significance that's incomparable to before?

Not so much my life, but I think your life focuses and you're not really part of that focus. There is a kind of new focus and you have a kind of role in it, you know. That's one reason I never had kids. Yeah. Well, I never wanted to be 2.0. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, that's probably a good idea you did. Well, no, I mean, people, there's nothing, and I said this is someone who never had kids, but it's just so obvious that even an outsider like me can see that there is nothing like the love, a parent, has for the child. Yeah, sure. Possibly because it's sort of you. Yeah. And, well, I don't know of it. It's that. In fact, I think it's funny, and I think now I'm kind of in a phase that's even removed from that, which is I went home last week. I'm shooting a series out here, and I went home last week because we live outside of Boston. And my daughter had our second grandchild on the 17th night. The hospital was already closed. It was near midnight, and so we went to see the baby on the 18th.

And I was reminded that a friend and collaborator of mine, his grandmother, when she had her first, they had the first grandchild in Mickey's family. the mother printed a t-shirt that said had I known it was this much fun I would have done this first and I kind of I really began to understand that after I had the first grandchild because there's a lot about bringing up children that's not so much fun but the grandchild is a no-brainer for the most because you're not doing no heavy lifting right yeah although that often does not become the when the kids are near DeWills, which happens a lot. Of course, yeah. The kids on smack, so who takes over? The grandma. That's right, yeah.

I mean, it's, you know, you never know. I think our daughter loves being a mother, and I got to talk to my granddaughter right on the way here who I hadn't been able really to talk to because my daughter's been busy. daughter's been busy and when I called, I don't get an answer, et cetera, et cetera. But so I got to hear pooping and, you know, seven days. Oh, good.

Yeah. Because if it was like five, I'd be like, I could have to call child services. That's right, yeah. I hope we're still friends. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I can relate to absolutely none of this, but it is one reason I like to hear about it because it just fascinates me. as things fascinate a person when you can't relate to them,

because it's just more interesting because it's so not you. Me, I get me. I know me. Sure, yeah. Those things. Did you come from a big family? No, I came from an absolutely, believe it to be, for background. My parents were World War II vets, both of them.

My mother and nurse, my father in Patton's army. Wow. Yeah. And barely knew each other in high school, but reconnected in, Europe at the end of the war. How funny. Yeah, very romantic. Yeah. Wow. And my father's Catholic. I was raised

Catholic. My mother's Jewish, but only culturally, I didn't even know it when I was a kid. But my father was going to marry somebody else because Catholic boys just didn't marry Jewish girls in 1951, but at the last minute, he had the change of heart. Wow. So, yeah. So he was, you know, I was very, you know, I

you know you're just so lucky if you have good parents yeah oh god and so unlucky in ways if you don't yeah you know yeah um so i was lucky and you know leave it to beaver i mean you we're the same age almost i mean you're like the the the america of this is new jersey you know all white you know no no drugs in the high school i mean it's just such a innocent black and white time. My life was a super leave it to Beaver. In fact probably the big event of

my life was when I was one of them was doing a play out here in Los Angeles at the Mark Taper Forum and at the end of the play there was a knock on the door and I opened the door and it was

Barbara Billingsley. Barbara Billingsley from wait wait is this I watched all these shows and reruns as a kid. That's either... Beaver's mom. Oh, Beaver's mom. Beaver's mom, yes.

She kind of started with, you know, I just have to tell you this. We're fighting. Excuse me. Sorry. Can we stop right there? You're Beaver's mom. You were like my whole sexual... Beaver's mom? Yeah.

Yeah. Couldn't wait for I dream a genie? No. First, it was Haley Mills, and then for quite a while, Beaver's mom. John? And Haley Mills, too, I met backstage. And I had to kind of say

the same thing. Sorry. No, I mean, I'm your biggest fan, but Barbara Billingsley, that's sick. I mean, like, I could see Haley Mills. She was cute. Sure. But Barbara Billingsley was strictly mom vibes.

Yeah. Yeah, well, probably have some problem. You know. No, I had Barbara Eden sitting in that chair this year and she's 94 and like betrays it by I would say a quarter century I mean you would think and some people just carry themselves with an energy and a movement that does not suggest age you know yeah I mean Trump has that equality is almost 80 and it doesn't he doesn't read as 80 funny

I just crazy yeah but not 80 but it's a different topic but it's funny because I was thinking about Barbara Eden, who I haven't thought about in years. I was staying at a hotel when I came out here for a few days because I had stopped to do in Burbank, and I stayed out there a place called Amarona, anything is called. Nice, perfectly nice. And it had only photos of showbiz people everywhere, and one was Barbara Eden with Groucho Marx.

Which was a fantastic photo. And so I was just kind of every time I'd leave my room and go downstairs, I was kind of contemplating it. You know, which must have been, I remember the thing about it, that when I was a kid, of course, they seemed ancient to Mark's brothers when I was small. Me too, yeah. And probably they were 40. Right. I mean, or not even.

I remember George Burns when I was a kid. Yeah. And he was like, his character was almost an old man. Yeah. He reminded me of not just my uncle, but every uncle. Yeah, yeah. Because a smelly cigar. I remember I had an uncle who smoked.

who smoked, and it was like this awful burning, smelly, horrible thing in the smoke. It was just a kid and a human rejects that you have to, like, force yourself to like things. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. But he was still playing an old man when I was an adult. Like he played an old man for like 40 years. I remember he did, the last time in his own, he did a, he did a movie.

I don't remember that I meant, didn't he with John Denver? Oh, God. Oh, God. He's God. Yeah, yeah. He was so old, you know, now they'd probably cast you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

I mean, if you're iconic enough, you get to play God. If you haven't done it already, you will. You're a perfect, they must have asked you to be God before. That would alarm me for humanity. Really? Because Anthony Hopkins, God or, like, I think, Zeus or something like, Like, you know, maybe not our God, but a God, you know, Morgan Freeman. Morgan, I'm totally comfortable with that I'm good with.

Oh, he's the best God, yes. Anthony Hopkins is great, but you get the feeling God is just doing it for the money. Yeah, could be. Yeah, that could be a little worse. I like him. Great action. Oh, yeah. So great.

Yeah. So what's this project you're working on here? I am doing right now the second year of the series, which I liked and which I watched all of it, called Bad Monkey, Vince Vaughn. Oh, Vince Vaughn. I saw it. I was going to start it. Oh, I'm sorry I didn't. I didn't know you were in it. No, it's not a – mine is year or two. Oh, I see. I didn't do the first year.

I like Vince. I do too. He's funny. Yeah. This was a terrific part for him, and I liked it very much. And somewhere somebody had asked me, what are you watching or something? I said, why is that? I find you quite funny. And you're happy working? Yeah. I'm always working.

If it's not, if it's not that, it'd be something else. You know, I tour in maybe six pieces, fairly constantly. for decades, I direct, right, do whatever. No, you're Steppenwolf, you still have. I'm not in Steppenwolf anymore. It got too much for me. Oh, I always associated you. Yeah, sure.

You know, I was for 40 years. No, I know. Yeah, but you know, it's time for kind of new generation and their culture, their ideas, their life. I do, for the most part, I spend a lot of times doing classical music collaborations for the last 20 years, almost. Four with the Viennese Baroque orchestra and colleagues there and other ones with different colleagues, all kinds of different. Yeah, you're a deep guy. I must say, like I spent a lot of time on this thing like getting

and I am then talking about like, well, show business, I try to avoid politics because I started this so it plays not to talk about. But it goes where it goes. As you can see, there's no question. It's just my attempt to get as close as we possibly can to just being exactly how we would be, which I feel we are. I understand.

Yeah, that's why I didn't want microphones and all this shit. But I just got off the road at 70. I've been on the road doing stand-up for 42 years along with this and my show. So, you know, it's a lot. And it feels right as the right thing. I mean, we just, and I just, I don't know, I sort of pictured that you were like Brando-esque, because you are Brando-esque to me on that level.

And when he, well, like, he was just in his later years, you know, he was not into the work. You seem like you actually like it. I love the work. And you don't mind being like on the set and in the trailer. No. Oh, see? I love the work. I don't...

Even if it's in something that's not like the deepest, really. Doesn't matter. I never was a genre person. When my mother said that when I saw Peter Pan, Mary Martins, I think that was like 50s, something like that. I remember it in black and white on TV. Exactly. Yeah.

That I stayed behind this for two days. um i i guess i was so upset by it you know and why i have no idea was the idea of you know wendy i'm back well no one cares you know fuck you um or you know what i mean something along those lines but unlike a lot of wonderful actors i i think uh brando was certainly one uh George Z. Scott, I think, was one also. And there are many others, I think, that fit into that category. They grew to be embarrassed by that kind of work. Exactly.

Or grew to dislike it. I don't feel that way at all. That's so much better. I'm lucky. Oh, I feel glad to hear that. Because, like, I would see you in so many things and, like, oh, he's the spy. in this thing, movie, which I'm enjoying very much, but it's not some deep fucking, you know, it's not long day's journey into Berlin, you know, it's just a good spy thing. And he's great in this because he's always great. But I just had the feeling, oh, you know, I know he'd really rather be doing like, you know, Richard the third. And he's just doing it for the money. And I'm so glad to find out that. Not really, meaning I do things. that sound um like when i was a kid of course i grew up listening to mostly to pop music or my

parents music um when in just a little more than 20 years ago or i got approached by classical musicians would i consider doing a piece with them about blah blah blah i knew nothing about classical music background no interest no no love of it or etc and I started doing it because the the power of that music and and let's say especially the power of that music harnessed in this service of something excuse my stupidity but you're re you're doing spoken word with The classic. It can be that, or sometimes I hesitate to say I'm singing because there is some debate about that. Hey, what's up, Flies?

This is David Spade. Dana Carvey. Look, I know we never actually left, but I'll just say it. We are back with another season of Fly on the Wall. Every episode, including ones with guests, will now be on video. Every Thursday you'll hear us. NC is chatting with big-name celebrities. And every Monday you're stuck with just me and Dana.

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Okay. Well, maybe you're singing like Rex Harris, in my fair lady because he famously was not a singer no i'm not a talk singer i i was many years ago before the trans cries i was referred to as like saying like a trans tom waits and uh many years ago when i used to see a lot of tom he just played my brother in a film or rather i played his brother and um uh i one christmas i sang heart of a Saturday night with my guitar into his into his recording machine.

He called me, you know, a couple hours later, and he said, man, he'd sing like a fucking girl. So, but it's a lot of different things. It could be something I adapt and perform in, or blah, blah, blah. They're not just kind of narrations. They're singing like a girl pieces. It's not a bad. It's not the worst thing.

No. Frankie Valley. Yeah, absolutely. Prince. I mean, I can name a lot of people. That was my song at the talent show. Eddie Kendrix, do you remember the high? Oh, yeah, that was, I was listening to.

Hey, they're lonely girl. Yeah. Yeah, I was listening to it not so long ago. That's why I remembered the name. But so. And that kind of also revivified interests

at a time in the same way that, say, when I was 28, 29, and something like that, I did a play with Dawson and Hoffman. Oh, I saw it. I think it's the first time I ever saw you. You were talking about death of a salesman? Yeah. I saw it on TV. I remember the TV. I remember where I was. Well.

Was it like 85? 80. Yeah. That came out in 85. My first department out here. Wow. Yeah, on Westmount. Well, and I was blown away. Well, and that, but that, that was his kind of work ethic and the way he works so hard. Who? Dustin. Dustin, meant a huge thing to me, actually, because I was not a big worker. I was like, yeah, yeah, I read it. Yeah, yeah, okay, Yeah, yeah, I said, okay, glass manasurer, yeah, I saw he's a guy, yeah, okay, I got it. You just, you know, just go out and do it and blah, and never thought about it, never really worked on it, just did it.

Maybe that's the best way to do it. I mean, I... Isn't that what they're always trying to get to that sort of just don't act, just be just like, don't think about it too much? But the older you get, you can't really do that, I find. And, I mean, maybe it's the 5,000 bottles of red wine. Maybe it could be a catholicity of issues. Talking about memory, don't even. Yeah, I mean, so I have to really apply myself.

And I ran into people along the road that helped me to, work is never something I took too seriously. I can always leave it at home. I can always go on to the next, et cetera. But I met people who kept me interested in work my whole life. And that was great luck, whereas some people, I think Brando is one, for whatever reason I didn't know him

but for whatever reason I think there are people who really lose interest in the work and I find the work interesting well because you get offered good work

and the reason why that happens is because you are great at what you do amazing at what you do and you also were in hit movies you were in like movies that everybody saw and you also have that kind of cachet as that kind of a top tier actor, well-earned, you know, the Daniel de Lewis's and the De Niro's and the Dustin's and you, you know, so when you have both of those, you'll always work. I mean, they'll always be in demand and I'm telling you. Very lucky. Got some luck. But it's lucky being born John Malkovich. Yeah. And it's lucky being born when I was in America, absolutely. And the color of my skin without sounding like some kind of clown. No, no, that's true. Clown.

I had a lot of, I had a lot of advantages, but I do think, I say luck to the extent that somebody says, you work very hard. Yeah, sure, I do. But so do a lot of people who work in a factory or do, so do a lot of actors who never get anywhere. No, we are very lucky to toil in the vineyard of the muse. Yeah, absolutely. Which is a lot I stole from. And it's a great job. I mean, it's fantastic.

There's jobs and there's careers. Yeah. Careers are fun, jobs are drudgery. I've had both. Yeah. I know the difference. And by the way, everyone in America knows the difference. Yeah.

And that's why they don't want jobs. I can't blame them. No, I don't. Don't worry kids with AI, there won't be any. Yeah. Well, boy, what about that? I mean, see, this. This terrifies me on a number.

It should. It should. It's terrifying. I have children and grandchildren. Yes. And also because I remember already five, six years ago I was doing a play in London. And I was talking to a taxi driver there because they're always very chatty. And we were talking about this idea of, yeah, it's right.

You know, they're always, we were talking about this idea of driverless cars and I I just kind of go okay that's okay but and and maybe they'll be better than people we're profoundly flawed we're distracted we run red lights we get drunk we get a hot text while driving yeah we text while driving we put on makeup while driving I do yeah I certainly I do just the other day I was watching a girl is as someone is driving me to work as the driver is driving me to work who is just doing her her makeup in the visor and really not looking at the road for kind of 20 seconds and going along the freeway you know um and you know you kind of go is this with is this the 101 or is this

you didn't say anything no she was in the next car oh the next car yeah just driving along, looking at a result and, you know, you just kind of go well. I still would have said something. Yeah. I would have I was once pulled over by a citizen. Yeah. A citizen. I wasn't one of driving so badly, a citizen pulled me over. A citizen. Yeah. No, just a guy who said

dude, you're going to have an accident. Okay, well that's fair. Very fair. Yeah. And then I celebrated my way into his car and he drove me home. Wow. Yeah. That's great. He was beefing with his wife, and we wound up going to strip clubs together. Wow.

And then one of the strippers drove him back to where we left his car in Malibu. That's hilarious. But most of your friends show people? I have a good amount of people who are friends in some version of show business or the other, either producers, writers, actors, et cetera. Because that's who we get to know. That's who we get to know. That's who we work with.

Most of them are that. And then I have friends who are not that. I still have friends from childhood. Right. Me too. And there are many people. You know, show business, look, I rag on it all the time here. But the truth is that it's like any other industry. There are saints and there are sinners.

And there's a lot, you know, if you think it's all shit, it's not all shit. It's mostly shit. It's mostly shit. But the stuff that's good is good. We're like, you know, we are very entertained. But we do the best we can. And we can take solace, almost everybody in show business, that what we obsess on, that we could have done better. They're not noticing anyway. No. They just, I never once saw you perform

and thought, oh man, I would have really liked the scene an alternate version of that scene because he really could have, it's like, no, he's killing it as he always is, you know. And I'm so glad to find this out about you, your attitude. It's rare, really, among icons like that. You're right. The Brando and those guys, they did have a George C. Scott. kind of got cranky at the end. I mean, poor Gene Hackman got eaten by rats. How man do you have to be in show business to let that happen to you? You know.

Oh, yeah, yeah. But, you know, but you have such a great attitude, and it makes me think, oh, then he must be very proud, as I hope he is, of, like, the con airs, the, in the line of fires. because, like, those were like, just for the guy like me who was like, I am not a culture vulture. You know, I like culture. I think I'm pretty more culture compared to where society is gone than the average bear, but I'm not into opera or ballet. Yeah, you know, I don't, you know.

But I just like a good movie that's all, it's entertaining and it's about something. And those were movies that fit that. I mean, I think in the line of fire, it could be in my top 10 of all movies of all time. The things I can watch over and over, can't seem to resist it. It sort of has a perfect script. I don't know if you won awards for it, you probably should have.

If you didn't, they got it wrong. And then Clint East would actually could have and should have won a, I thought, a leading man actor for that. I love Clint. But that performance, he does some great work for that. I love him. And he was terrific. I have a great Conair story, I think you like. I was, we had a house in France,

and I was living there, and I was there working on a screenplay of a film I later directed with a writer called Nicholas Shakespeare who had written the novel when Nicholas had never written a screenplay. So three, including on the set of Conair later, we were working on the script

on the script in the afternoon. We'd come in for lunch. We were still there having a coffee and then a package came and it was a D.HL. And it was a script, which is how you used to get, you know, before internet or in pre-history. That's how you got a script.

And so I open up this package. I look at it. I see the title. I open the first page. I see the characters listed. You know, and I look at that, I kind of look at the first three lines or something. Of your character, or of the whole thing? No, the whole thing.

Just the title, the list of characters and some, which I noted, seemed to all have the last names of romantic era poets. And kind of an Easter egg for... Yeah. And so I kind of thought, okay, and I threw the script like this, we have. have a long kitchen in France, it's kind of 16 meters, and I just chucked it like that. And Nicholas and I went on talking, et cetera.

And then we went out, and I picked weeds. We went on working, as we did kind of all day long, et cetera, et cetera. And then at the end of the night, after a bunch of wine, Nicholas said to me, you know, John, I've never read a screenplay. Would you mind terribly if you're not? I took this screenplay that you received today and read it. And I said, oh, of course, be my guest, Nicholas. Of course, he went up to bed.

Next morning, he came down. He was just so upset. And he said, I've read this thing. It's just the biggest piece of crap. It's just the worst thing I've ever read. Blah, blah, blah, yada. Yaddy, yaddy went on for kind of three minutes. Very, very English public schoolboy, very elegant language,

and, you know, very passionate. uh and he has a kind of sweetness about him nicholas and he went on and on and on and then he said i'm just so glad i i'm working with someone with such integrity that they would never consider a thing like this and i was like nicholas whoa no nicholas stop sorry i'm doing it that's great i read what i had to read con air on an airplane named after Romantic Area Poets. That's 500 million Jerry Berkheimer producing. Right.

Sorry, don't. Don't really need to read it. I'm not a kind of snob about that. No, you're not. I love funny things. I like you more. I love childish things. I like you a lot, and I like you more now.

It's great. Because, like, I have to tell you, I was starting to say this, like, 20 minutes ago, and was stone and forgot, but I'm gonna say it now. Like, I do spend a lot of time here because politics comes up and show business talking about the actors, and I'm afraid it's not often very complimentary.

I believe this about people in show business. The talent is overflowing. The talent is so awesome sometimes. I mean, just in music, acting, all the arts, you know. It's just so, they are so talented, but not that bright. With, and whenever I say this, I always say, with notable accounts, And I just wanted to say to you, because I really, I don't do any preparation, obviously, but this is the one thing that I said, oh, here, I have to tell him this.

When I say with notable exceptions, I think you are exactly who I'm talking about. I don't mean just you, but I mean, like, see, you said, I was sitting in a house in France. This is how I picture you sitting in a house in France, surrounded by beatniks and poets and, you know, brilliant people. And then I thought when you're just like, okay. I've got to go to work for the next month and make $12 million so we can live here and for... That's how I thought you were. So it's nice to know that you're enjoying the work and actually you want to get out of the house. Yeah. Well...

You're like every other guy. Sorry, I did this for three days. Yeah. No, I'm not even so eager to get out of the house, but the fact is that's where the work is. You know, in the year, when this series finishes, which brings me here, I'll have tours all over South America, North America, Europe, I'll direct a play in Japan. Your life is on the road, and I wouldn't do it if I didn't like it. I couldn't anymore. This is where we part. Yeah. You're a better man than I, Gunga, then. I am so happy not having to be.

on the road. Just away from the house. You know, but some people have more homebodies and some people were born in a trunk and that's how they feel comfortable. Yeah. I mean, W.C. Fields couldn't get to sleep unless it was raining.

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How much did you tour? Every other weekend, I was on the road. But just two cities, a very pampered way of doing it. And it was still, it just got to be, first of all. It's a lot. And also, I hate to put it this way, and of course, people will be upset. but people are just like at hotels and stuff they just can't do shit anymore I mean I don't know whether they're stoned or disaffected or both or

you know just whatever it is but there's also it's just like I I just and I'm not asking for the world I just want a comfortable experience in a hotel don't fuck with the heat and the TV and what some don't make it like I have to think about the fucking room yeah all of 18 hours I'm here yeah well they can't do that um and why i'm screaming yeah like no i scream about it too i know see something happened i one could say it was during COVID but i think it's actually predated COVID now you're supposed to do that job so in other words you no longer it can go say to a travel agent and say i would like to go from here to there blah blah You have to do it yourself.

You have to notice that whenever you book an airplane ticket, that whatever you say, one bag, no, Tulsa, not Tulsa, no Oklahoma City, know this, that the date changes. After you go through all this misery to book an airplane ticket. then they want to know how they did. And so you have to do that job. It's so needy. And it's too needy for me. To be corporately needy. It's one thing to be personally.

I don't want to hear. But as a corporation. How were we at car rental? Do you like me? Yeah. Do you like what? And I kind of go, listen, I said, I picked up a car, just a car. When I got back on the 20th, I won't say what company, the woman is perfectly pleasant.

And she started re-asking me all the questions where it says, do you want insurance? Okay. Do you want thousands of dollars of third-party insurance? Okay. Do you want this? does your butt hurt, does this blah, blah, yada, yada, and fucking on and on and on. And so you fill out all that.

And I take the flight at dawn from Boston. I get tell A. I go to the rental car in the Studio City, and she starts the same questions over. And I kind of say, excuse me, miss, See, when you fill out this form, you answer all those questions with your reward allegedly being shorter time at the checkout. And now you're re-asking me all these things in the hopes of getting me to pay $27 for this radio station or blah, blah, blah, all of which I always. I already answered.

I already did all that. And that's in everything now. If they ship you something, how was it? Well, I paid you, you shipped it. I have it. If I don't have it, you'll hear from me. But otherwise, it's fine. And now you just do everyone's job.

Everyone. See, this is another reason why I didn't have kids. You just have more money when you have no kids. Sure. I haven't faced any of this this century. I flew on a private plane, got picked up. I never dealt with a fucking agent, the rental cars.

You shouldn't either, but because you have kids, which take all your money. Yes, sir. Yeah, sure. I'm just saying that's my... Absolutely, which you don't get to leave them. No, and I'm sure the reward is much greater

than having to deal with that agent, but after hearing that story, it's like... Yeah, sure. But it's just, that's what I find now. Everybody wants you to do their job. But you, and yet you put up with this because obviously it's worth it to get there to the gig.

Yeah, I don't. It still is. Yeah. Wow. For me, if I go. That's a powerful love that you have for the job. If I go, one of the pieces I tour, is a piece called The Infamous Ramirez Hoffman.

This is a, I simply read a story. I don't act, there is no acting in it. I read a story. It's a story by Roberto Bellanyo from his book, Nazi literature in the Americas, which is a book, a small novel of Boulonios, who he wrote two massive masterpieces, one called the Savage Detectives

and one called 2-666. I took them both to the beach. Yeah, brilliant. Okay, well, brilliant writer. He wrote a kind of very childish, quite funny book, and quite, I mean, in a very dark way, quite a mordant way, but also quite a sad book,

this book Nazi literature in the Americas, which is essentially 40, fake obituaries of fake Nazis who never existed, all of whom have idiotic literary obsessions. So I... Fake Nazis... Who never existed. So somebody who they're claiming, for example,

was spirited out of Germany after the war, wound up in Brazil, say, or Paraguay... That's right, boys from Brazil, Paraguay... Because that did happen. Yeah, of course, a lot. Ickman and... Sure, a lot. And boys from Brazil movie.

Of course, yeah. Right. But you're saying, but these are fake ones. Yeah, these are fake ones. These are AI Nazis. A.I. Exactly. I hope they'll be more likely looking than the AI Nazis were.

Right. Because I don't remember a lot of African. No, I remember that. I saw a picture. That's a, hmm, that sense. If you think AI might be, well. But this, I got asked by a penis, a very gifted Rajan penis, what would I do if what could I come up with her if she wanted to do a tango program?

And I immediately thought of this book because South America, boys from Brazil, very, very kind of American movie culture, thinking about it, Eichmann. What is the point of view of the book? It's quite, some of it's very, very far. very mordant, quite dark humor. That particular piece is actually terrifically sad, which is about a character in Chile, who is called the infamous Ramirez Hoffman, who starts out as a kind of artsy, farsi,

pot-smoking poet. Hey, I'm sitting right here. Yeah. and ends up as a serial killer and the representative of the Pinochet's regime interest in avant-garde art. And I said, I want to take this short story and I want to make a musical piece out of it.

So it's kind of 82 minutes. I do nothing but read this story. It has a brilliant pianist, a brilliant violinist. But what is it saying that made you want to do this? Of all the things you could do, I mean, you say fake Nazis. Is that some comment on how it's easy to put one over on people? I mean, we can always be fooled into or... Well, we can certainly be, as we know, including me.

But, no, I don't think it's that. It's about the cost of things. the cost of being human, the cost of what you do to others, the cost of violence and death and the reverberations. Well, that's a deep thought. But all told... No, I mean it. It is.

And that's why I do it. I mean, just because Woody Allen was here recently, and I was kind of pressing him on this idea that, you know, He said in a certain point, you know, he never made a great movie and, you know, which I would debate. Oh, Broadway, Danny Rose is certainly great. I love a lot of his movies. And he made some terrific. Yeah, sure.

But, you know, because he's a true artist, you know, he's willing to fail. And we make stinkers. Yeah, and we make stinkers, absolutely. Maybe we're making one now. It's possible. No, we're definitely not. It's possible. I'm enjoying the fuck out of it.

But, yeah. But yeah, go ahead. He's a smart man. I agree with him about that. It happens. But at any rate, so that's why I do it. That connection with people who understand what this writer is saying and what the music is saying.

and are touched by it, irregardless of the fact that it's not in their language. Yeah, it has a running translation. Irregardless of the fact that they don't like classical music as far as they know, but because they don't know, in fact, they do like it. They just haven't heard it. Right. And they haven't heard it in a way that they can see, and most importantly, feel what it does to them

when channeled in a certain way. And that's why the form interests me. I must say when I hear things like this, it's another one of those things where it's fascinating to me because it's not me. And I'm torn because part of me says, I'm a little jealous that I'm not on this intellectual level. I don't think it's a high level at all.

I do. I mean, you said people who haven't heard classical music, I have heard it, and it's not my, it's not for me. Yeah. You know, I mean, I grew up on fucking, you know, the Rolling Stones and. Me too. Yeah, I know. But me too. But some people can make that bridge. I'm just saying, part of me, like, wishes I could and knows that there's a place to get to that's like, like, maybe would tickle my brain even more. And part of me is like, eh, I'm smart enough. You're a very smart man. Thank you. I mean, I have a very good common sense and a balance.

Yes. And I think it's just, and this is where this form first appealed to me, I think is just how one is or isn't exposed to something and how that thing impacts you. I remember seeing I directed a play in London a few years ago. called The Good Canary, and that was the third production I had done of it in two other countries before. And a young kid at intermission came over. It was a good production. It's a very nice play, but an American writer called Zach Helm. And it was a good production with an excellent cast.

And a kid came over to me, a young kid probably 20 or very early. early 20s. Very good looking kid, English boy. I was standing there. I still think I still smoked then. I think maybe I didn't, but went out for intermission. And the kid came over to me. It was kind of shaking. And he said to me, and this was just a kid. And he said to me, excuse me are plays always like this I've never been to a play

and I said no they're not usually it's a misery and I've been in a lot of those this one is not one of those so they can they can also be

very very special and make you, in the best way, reflect profoundly on life and the human experience. What do you think is it that makes it a misery, though, when it's a misery? Well... Like, what were you referring to? Many plays, for instance, I directed a very famous production of a play called The Savages by the Great English writer Christopher Hampton, which was widely chosen. as the worst production in the history of Chicago theater.

This had 35 naked alleged savages who were meant to be the Sintas Larga's Indians. Where are they from? Amazon Basin of Brazil who were being exterminated. The play started on press night. I had said to two, of those savages, people playing savages, but these are kids from the north shore of Chicago,

whatever, suburbs, in seats quite low in the theater. So you either had a vagina, a butt hole, or a set of balls directly in your face. Wow. So here's how the play, sorry, sorry with my friend Tom Irwin, terrific actor. reciting a poem about these Sintas, Largus, Indians, I had said five minutes before the play started,

I had said, hey, hey, listen to me, if the torch goes out to these two actors who were playing savages, two of the savages, if his torch goes out or your torch goes out with the sterno in the torch, don't try an attempt to light the other idiots torch with your

defunct torch okay am I clear what okay again don't try to light so the poem starts 35 naked Indians have

walked out doing what is what the Peruvians referred to as a piss dance everybody's kind of like this they're this far away from the actors they're like fuck wait what and

one torch goes out the guy goes to light up the guy's torch of course whole stage wooden stage on fire opening press night since it was opening night did they think that was what was supposed to happen in the play they always think that

right so if it catches on fire and if they catch them fire well I guess it's just meant to be what direction hey there's no bad publicity am I wrong that's right so we had a girl who during the scenes

of the terrorist of kind of Carlos the jaggle figure you may remember of course and the the kidnapped English diplomat up on the top of our set which had which had three strips

which looked like giant sizzling members, sizzling the kind of fake bacon. For some reason, which I never understood and never asked because, you know, it wasn't the set desire. I wonder what that sizzling is for. But as the

savage band would be playing their little homemade instruments underneath this very serious set, there was a girl who was just had a gas issue who would just Not with that fire

Oh my God talking about a recipe for disaster But he was talking about the audience The furthest person is like where that itself is So there's an There's olfactory There's smell

And on a certain level Isn't their taste Right I mean and you had people who were supposedly have never heard English spoken And have never even heard Portuguese

He's spoken, let alone English. And the guy is supposed to be the chief of the tribe. And then during the ritual, he gets handed the bowl of fruit. And what does he say? Usually he just puts in his mouth in his mouth and he says nothing. He goes, mmm, berries. Okay? So it's like mini ad lib.

Yeah, it's an ad lib. And you kind of go, okay. And it was just, my friend Bob Falls, a terrific director from a different theater. from a different theater in Chicago. He came to it a couple weeks into the run and I asked him to come and say, listen, would you mind coming?

It's not good at all. But I'm hoping maybe you'll be able to say something that I can do, you know, blah, blah, blah. And Bob's very tall, he's like six, four. At the end of the play, kind of stood up, stretched his legs, and I was still sitting down and kind of bent over me. And I said, well, Bob, like, what do you think

I should do and he goes close it and that's exactly can I ask this question what did you or the you and or the people put on this play what point were you think you were making that that was enhanced by the balls and the pussy and the asshole and this other what point did you think you were making they must have thought you were making a point because when we're young we want to make a point no I don't I don't think it was about at that point. They were just meant to represent these naked savages. Okay, but what is the play about?

It is about the extermination of this tribe of Indians as told through the eyes of this British diplomat. Just saying that's bad. Yeah. Okay. And it's just was a miserable production and failed on every level. It should. not a deep idea like evil evil is bad yes it is now let's say something interesting about it i was going to say before i when woody allen was here we were having this little debate about

you know he never made a great movie i said i think you did and that's why so many of your idols when you were you know making movies like elia kazan were all your biggest fans they wouldn't be your fans if he didn't make a great movie he said i never have a lofty thought i said lofty thoughts first of all there's only one and then i know you're a eugene o'neill fan He once said, and this is what I was saying to Woody, Alan, the only lofty thought to me is that, in your Juno Neal's words, a life with illusions is unpardonable, and a life without illusions is unbearable. I feel like everything is a variation on saying that in an entertaining way.

Yeah, I would agree. Really? I would agree. Yeah. And there is also... Damn. There is also a question. I think you're right. But there is also a question, I think, that should exist, should be innate in good, serious work, which is, how do we live? That question, not in a pretentious way. How do we live?

And does this tell me anything? And in that case, probably the play, at least my production of it, didn't tell me anything. And I think, really affecting things and effective things make you reflect on how to live. There's such a cognitive dissonance in this age because of what is going on in Washington and what is going on in the country, which, you know, is so different than anything, if you're a young person, you just don't have that experience that we have, that we remember normal. So we can't quite communicate to you how abnormal things really are. And yet our lives go on the same way. Totally fun.

So it's almost like we're in a glass bottom boat. You know, we're looking at the sharks, but we're in the glass bottom boat. We're not in the water. No. That we might be in the water because of the shark. Well, of course, anything could happen. But you know what I mean about? I totally agree.

I don't see myself as a political person. Good, let's know. But I think about it like this. I would never let and if it came to that, then I'd have to rethink it, obviously. But I'm 71, I'll be 72 in December. I don't decide my day.

by who's president and who isn't. And you shouldn't. I live my life. Yes. I try to be the best person you can be. Be a decent person. I try to be a good colleague. I tried to be a decent human being.

I tried to learn something. I understand I don't have many questions, many answers to many questions. And that's all I can do. And you're so lucky like I am is that you not just learn, you transmit. You're in the job of transmitting what you learn. So am I, as best I can. Of course. I'm trying to tell people what I really think and will be helpful and so forth.

But you do the same thing in your art form. You're putting ideas in the water. Yeah. And you're much more daring than I am. But in a way, that's your job. Yeah, it's my job. It's your job. And you're...

I love my job. Yeah, and it's a great job. With all the shit that goes with it, which is a lot of shit from both sides. And it's so worth it. It's so much, it's so, as the old ad used to go, priceless. It's so priceless to be able to say what you really think always.

Sure. And not worry about it. where the chips fall and you know they fall on lots of people on both sides and uh of course and and and they've fallen on you and also live on me sure and that's fine you know you know we're so lucky of course we're just basically lucky we were born in the right country at the right time don't you think we being our age were kind of born at a blessed time because it's before the AI and environment goes really off the rails time which is coming, the robots taking over,

and it's, you know, but it's also after we had toilets and antibiotics. And, you know, I feel like we were in a very favorable time. Most favorable time, I would say, I could think of in human history. And I know I benefited completely from that. I had very solid parents

I had siblings that I loved most of them gone now sadly I grew up in a nice little town I had great friends I was like we could have switched

I mean and I didn't have a lot of friends I'm I had a lot of friends and I still have quite a few but that's why when I mentioned luck so you don't get any luckier than that it's lucky to be making

our living in the arts you realize that the arts is not under the category with humans of necessities that would be like defense and getting food and shit like that we're definitely in the well you won't die without

it category. No. You're not going to die without Netflix. No, you may read a book without it. Even books, you wouldn't die. No, even books, you wouldn't die. Air, water, food, barbarians attacking you. Warmth, maybe.

Warms, absolutely, yes. Arrows, whatever, clubs. Absolutely. Lots of stuff could kill you. Yeah, we're not in that field. Certainly not in this room. I wouldn't want to be. No.

And I'm glad I'm not. But I'm also, hopefully, appreciative, I'm not. Also, wouldn't want to have been born even a hundred years ago. No. You know, I mean, I don't think people realize how much this country has changed in a hundred years. A hundred years ago, I would say, I'm pulling this out of my ass, but it's apropos because I'm going to talk about toilets. Like, a fairly goodly percentage of the country did not have, like, flow toilets, like on the farm there.

They were 100 years ago. Oh, God, even when I was secure. What? Yeah, yeah, out in the country. Oh, out in the country, yeah. Or Miss Burkhart, who my grandfather referred to as Bubbles, Burkart, used to when the bus would let the kids from the country slide in, she would throw up the windows even with the dead of winter to kind of emphasize their stink, you know.

Um, come on. You know, you don't really want that in a great school teacher, but it's okay. So, no, they, they couldn't even imagine, but that's the problem. It's really hard to imagine. This is something I find often fairly objectionable in some youth. I don't in any way say all youth because of I've had great experiences working with people who were much, much younger than me and kids

and I've met and worked with some super smart ones. A little bit dangerous to judge people now who lived 100 years ago or 200 years ago. I've done tons of shit on that. Yeah, I mean, it's really annoys me. Hey, listen, you're not, I don't believe you're better. No.

I don't believe, I mean, you might be smarter. You just came later. You just came later. And lots of things of great beauty or importance or bravery or humor or kindness. At least that, I can say I met wonderful people in my life older than me who knew more, who went to their grave, knowing more, who did more important things for more important... Well, now you're that guy.

Now you're the older guy. I'm the older guy, but I'm not... I mean, you're running out of people who are older than us. Yeah, well, I'm almost completely out. But... I mean... But what I mean is, you know, I'll never be my father.

There's no way. You mean as good? Yeah, no way. Well, how was he better than you? He was environmentalist in the 50s when people thought he was insane. He was 82nd airborne. He was a lot of things he didn't give him flying shit about money.

There was nothing corrupt about him. I would say the same with my father. So I go, sorry. You know, if I detested myself, I would have killed myself. They used to say about us boomers when we were kids. that we were what we say now about like the Millennials and the Gen Z, spoiled, like just

entitled, bratty, like soft, really soft. Because compared to our fathers, we are soft. Of course. It's just they got so much more soft. We're fucking Marines compared to them. Which is so ridiculous, because we're not Marines. No. They were Marines. Literally, we're Marines or Army people or whatever.

They went to war, depression, the whole nine, just like all the things. And the blacks fighting, for like you know against fire hoses and dogs and like yeah like it just was a different attacked by by german shepherds from being alive different level wanting to go to school but they said that about baby boomers and and it's just it never like there was never any uh you know backlash it was just more lash yeah yeah yeah it's gonna go worse and worse and worse yeah until now they're just so fragile yeah it's just it's something i

I tried to discourage, but it exists. And I don't know why, like, I've often had people, you know, when I do interviews or something. My family was fairly prone to violence. And my father, who, as I mentioned, was 82nd Airborne, he would say a very simple thing. And you knew what the end result was going to be. as surely as the sun came up in the east he would say Johnny when you pull the chain the toilet flushes

okay I pulled the chain all the time and the toilet flushed so there's no point in saying I got wet okay there's no point so I don't have any of that right oh I was beaten

you fucking right I was beaten and I should have had four more for every one I got and I didn't get a tiny amount I got numerous ones well I can't endorse that

and I'm always no I'm not saying I endorse it I'm just saying it doesn't make me a victim I am someone who believes in spanking as a sort of nuclear option that I was just talking to somebody who had a very similar experience he said you know i didn't get spanked a lot a few times and i said me too me too

like a few times like when they you really commit that kind of foul that they have to let you know not a beating not a beating a spanking but the fact that we we got to this place where that was just completely verboten that was unthinkable and it should not be unthinkable yeah i kind of agree I don't think it should be unthinkable because what I've witnessed is just my personal opinion. What I've witnessed is a lot of kind of

emotional blowback both to parents and in children who can, that can never be expressed which then I think ends up creating a lot of resentment. You know, for me, I was a kid, I knew if I crossed that line, I was fucked. That's it. You're fucked. And that was

boom, boom, boom. It's over. I didn't really think about it. But you know, you actors who have your instrument, did this help you have your instrument? Or was this like now, I'm just going to read the lines? You know, that's a great question, but I don't think it's one I can answer in that, like Popeye, you know, we am what we am, and that's all we am. So I can say what I would have been like as an actor if I didn't have my childhood. But when you aren't that spitting, frothing assassin

in the line of fire, it does make me think, now that we're having this conversation, that it would be so easy just to just to be like, you know, you had that sort of attitude in you for a long time probably about your father. Because I mean, even when the few times my father spanked me, I definitely hated him. Yeah, sure.

Who's not going to hate somebody who's hitting you? Yeah, sure. And it sounds like you got a lot more than I did. Yeah, I got a decent amount. Yeah. I think I hated my father at times. But mostly, I loved him. And I never, I'll tell you what I think was the important takeaway.

He, anything I did that was good, that was expected. It wasn't praised. It was, that was a minimum. My father was a son-way. That was that generation. That was how they were. Yeah. So you get this many strikeouts.

I was a pitcher. You get this many tackles. I was a football. player you you do this play or that play you do whatever it is you do i once had a report card with all a's in one b and he said about that subject he said uh oh i guess you had some hard tests in biology huh you know this sort of passive aggressive like like really nothing about the five a's that's right no no that just run in p yeah um well but that see to me that's what i think is wrong kind of generationally it seems to me and I've been in fault of it too that you

always say that was superb that was fantastic you're beautiful you're funny that's great that what a beautiful drawing yada yada I don't know if that's good for kids it's not it's locked no no no it's not locked no no no no no oh it is so hard to get good help Thank you.