Club Random with Bill Maher - Kevin Spacey | Club Random with Bill Maher

Episode Date: June 29, 2026

Two-time Oscar winner Kevin Spacey drops by Club Random for a conversation that goes exactly where you'd expect—and plenty of places you wouldn't. Bill doesn't let him dodge the tough questions, pressing Spacey on the allegations that derailed his career, the court cases that cleared him, and what it's like trying to rebuild a life from what he calls "show business jail." The two cover Hollywood's double standards, Jack Lemmon's mentorship, therapy, the Playboy Mansion, and Netflix shelving one of Spacey's completed films. Spacey also unveils what feels like an entire repertory company of impressions—Johnny Carson, Jack Lemmon, and more—as the conversation veers into Roman history, classic cinema, Dick Van Dyke's workout routine at 100, and why he thinks his best work may still be ahead of him. Subscribe to the Club Random YouTube channel: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/c/clubrandompodcast?sub_confirmation=1⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Watch episodes ad-free – subscribe to Bill Maher’s Substack: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://billmaher.substack.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the podcast for free wherever you listen: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/ClubRandom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Buy Club Random Merch: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://clubrandom.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices ABOUT CLUB RANDOM Bill Maher rewrites the rules of podcasting the way he did in television in this series of one on one, hour long conversations with a wide variety of unexpected guests in the undisclosed location called Club Random. There’s a whole big world out there that isn’t about politics and Bill and his guests—from Bill Burr and Jerry Seinfeld to Jordan Peterson, Quentin Tarantino and Neil DeGrasse Tyson—talk about all of it.  For advertising opportunities please email: [e-mail] ABOUT BILL MAHER Bill Maher was the host of “Politically Incorrect” (Comedy Central, ABC) from 1993-2002, and for the last fourteen years on HBO’s “Real Time,” Maher’s combination of unflinching honesty and big laughs have garnered him 40 Emmy nominations. Maher won his first Emmy in 2014 as executive producer for the HBO series, “VICE.” In October of 2008, this same combination was on display in Maher’s uproarious and unprecedented swipe at organized religion, “Religulous.” Maher has written five bestsellers: “True Story,” “Does Anybody Have a Problem with That? Politically Incorrect’s Greatest Hits,” “When You Ride Alone, You Ride with Bin Laden,” “New Rules: Polite Musings from a Timid Observer,” and most recently, “The New New Rules: A Funny Look at How Everybody But Me Has Their Head Up Their Ass.” FOLLOW CLUB RANDOM https://www.clubrandom.com https://www.facebook.com/Club-Random-101776489118185 https://twitter.com/clubrandom_ https://www.instagram.com/clubrandompodcast https://www.tiktok.com/@clubrandompodcast FOLLOW BILL MAHER https://www.billmaher.com https://twitter.com/billmaher https://www.instagram.com/billmaher Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

While you were remodeling your backyard to make it more, you know, zen-e. We were remodeling our merch store to make it more random. We've slapped our new logo on T-shirts, tie-dies, hoodies, and hats, and all with premium printed labels. Look, I wasn't kidding. We have it, because tags are like the junk mail of clothing. All merch is available exclusively at clubrandom.com. Once again, that's club random.

If someone has a problem with you, why do they wait until they're sitting in front of a journalist and then they turn it into a story? Who did that? I have to share with you something I've never said publicly. I guess we're telling tales out of school. We might as well. And is Kevin Spacey really here? He's really here. Wow.

Man of his word. Thank you for adding. You kidding? Really? Yeah. Oh. Thank you so much. I can't wait to talk to you.

I mean, I was so excited all day because I don't see you. Obviously, there are reasons of an unpleasant nature that prevent you from big. But, you know, for the longest time, you know, you were just, I'll say this. I don't know if we could talk about, you know, obviously, punishment, crime, what fits. But like, you were always a working actor. For you to, like, lose working, you look like, always see. kind of guy who like loves to be on a set. Definitely.

Like De Niro's like that, right? They just go from one day. That's why they do some shit. Because you'd rather work on some shit to not work, right? You'd rather work on some shit, although, you know, when you start off, you know, no matter what the film or play or television thing is, you always think, oh, I'm going to try to do my best work and I'm going to believe in it. And, you know, every now and then you make a nine lives.

What can you do? What was that? Was it a bad movie you were in? Oh, yeah. Nine lives? Yeah, I turn into a cat. But where in your career was this? It was at a point where I was willing to make a movie just for money.

I know, but because you were past, you were very bankable. It was a bankable star and I had no idea that a movie about a cat. You had done usual suspects. Oh, yeah, this is like, you know, after House of Cards. Oh, I see. This was, yeah, this was a movie that I never knew that a movie about a cat could be such a dog. You know what I'm saying? Is that how you went and promoted it?

Yeah, I know. There was a time when, I mean, poor Bruce Willis now in bad shape, and I knew him a long time ago pretty well for a little while when he was first out here and he hung out at the comedy clubs. But there was a time when I would see when I would watch movies in hotels. That's why I see all my movies. Sure. For a while, that stopped. But it used to be a real treat in a hotel room because they would have the first-run movies.

But you'd buy it, of course. And so like... So you weren't watching the porno. Is that what you're saying? There was moments when I did break down. But it kind of sucked because if you can't fast forward. Right. Yes, that's true.

You mean get past the story points. Right. This is so long ago there were story points. Oh, I see. That's not how porn is today. But I'm saying you watch Forrest Gump on a hotel television. Is that what you're saying? That would not have been my choice.

What I was saying was about the working for horror movies. Yeah. Not a horror, whore. Hore, yeah. There was a time when, like, you could see Bruce Willis. As you scrolled through the movies, they would be like, at one time, three or four you'd never heard of. Right.

With him. And he always had like a very small part. I'm sure they shot it in a week or less. That's right. Yeah. That's right. And, but it was attributed to how big his name is. Sure.

That you could slap him on there to all these movies. And they would go straight to the video. But somebody was making money. We were, I was just in the car with Evan Lowenstein, who I know Evan and Jaron. A long time. We were just talking about the fact that, you know, Sam Jackson, when I think about how many movies Sam Jackson has been in. and a number of them

were films that, you know, he must have worked a couple of days and they paid him a shitload of money to say motherfucker or whatever it is that they wanted him to say. And I'm like, good for him, you know? Oh, yeah. Look at all the movies he made. How much money all the movies he made made.

It was incredible. Yeah, especially since we know he can do so much more. So it's funny when you... He's the best. I did a movie with him called The Negotiator that I absolutely love. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

I always wish that we'd done a sequel to it, because I think it's sequel material. And you played a negotiator or he did. I played the negotiator. Really? Yeah, he played a cop who'd been falsely accused. I would have pegged you for the psycho. Really?

No, I'm kidding. No, you have had a very broad range. I mean, you were never sort of like... What are you talking about? I was never into broads. Hey, wait a minute. Hey, just a second. Thank you.

Thank you. I'll be here all week. Thank you so much. You know what, Kevin, I never understood why you kept out of secret. Like, it kept, there's a point where it was like so much cooler to be gay. Like, I don't want to inject myself into this. But honestly, I mean, I don't get a lot of breaks from the media, especially, you know, they're a little too woke and blah, blah, blah.

If I, who they're pretty rough on, if I at some point had come out as gay, they would be like, it would be the greatest thing that ever happens. I mean, and I would be feeded and that would just be... Well, everybody's, you're a little gay, you know. No. No? Not even a little? But, you know, you're pinned against a guy against the wall with that kind of a question.

And it just, it makes you sound gay when you adam and admit that you're not. You fucking. Well, cheers. Yeah. Thank you for having me again. And I know you've been talking about having me, and it's been meant a lot to me. There's just been a period of years where the advice that Evan and I were getting was that because I was dealing with court stuff that I just couldn't come out and have the kind of conversations I would like to have had.

Look, I'm not going to lie to you. I mean, I go by numbers with scandals. I say go by. And it's an interesting question maybe to ask you. Like, if it's like one person, I'm always like, well, I don't know. if I wasn't in the room. When it gets to like, you know, you've, it's like, come on, man,

there's just too much smoke to be no fire. Oh, I never said there was no fire. Okay, alright. It just wasn't a raging forest fire. Right. It was a small kitchen fire that could have been put out with an extinguisher. To me, the most important point in this case,

and we can discuss all the ones, is that at a certain point, the law does have to have some merit, with people. You had like five, I think, five ones I heard about. And each time, yeah, that's just the truth. You know, just, they lost. I think you're like five and oh or something. We haven't lost one. We have, so. Yeah, we've been found not guilty in every court we've gone into with a jury. Right. And one Elton John, didn't he testify? Well, John testified in a case in Great But why was he, why was he because, what am I saying, gay, like gay celebrities hanging out together?

Weird. No, it wasn't about a party or anything like that. It was about the fact that a person who had accused me of something had also made up something about him, and he felt it was very important that the jury hear that this person was not consistently telling the truth. Do you think there's more making up in the gay community? making up well making up stuff you said he made up something about

yeah he made up something about and you're and the reason why I assume you've won five times is the jury's thought that people were making stuff up well there wasn't nothing no and there are certain cases where part of something is true but it's been rethought

it's been redesigned or it's been entirely made up certainly in the case of Anthony Rapp which is a case that we won in federal court in New York. Which one was that? Anthony Rap sued me. He was the first person to accuse me of something from 31 years before in 2017, which is why my whole...

Under what circumstances? I know that name. I've heard it. The circumstance was he did an article in BuzzFeed magazine in which he accused me of being attracted to him and wanting to be sexual with him when he was a teenager, when he was just a kid. And it took us until we got to court many years later. in 2022 to be able to prove that, in fact, the entire story was not true. The foundation of the story, he built around a bedroom in an apartment that he said I rented,

in which he'd gone into a bedroom at a party that I threw. He'd been invited to this party, and that at some point, very drunk, I came into that bedroom, leaned against the door, was so drunk I probably wouldn't remember, and that this encounter happened. But as it turned out, and as we proved in a court of law, I lived in a studio apartment. There was no bedroom. There was no door.

There was an entire foundation of what he told this story around, completely crumbled with the evidence. And also, we had incredible testimony by John Barrowman, who was a friend of his at the time, and had been to my apartment with him. The only time he'd ever been in my apartment was when they came to meet my dog. So the whole thing was made up.

Okay, so listen, I'm not that kind of interviewer who like, like, and then this is not the kind of. a show where like I do my homework and like I didn't even remember this guy's name. I play me this is not 16 minutes. Clearly. But I'm also, I feel like Anderson. I'm very disappointed. Yeah, I'm also fair and I also am, you know, I think my bond with my audience is truthful.

So truthfully again, like 20, like when 20 people feel like something like that's a lot of people, it's a lot of smoke. It's a lot of, I don't know, there is always nuance and people, it's, terrible, I think, that people skip over it. And one of them is time. Morays change. They just do. People acted differently.

I mean, we get better generally, as we're more enlightened. But, you know, you must have known you were, you know, forward, shall we? It takes the old parlors. A forward. I hit on a lot of guys. Yeah, but heading on and like, I mean, yeah, I did a bit about the one, again, you got off totally. I mean, I think the jury was like, took two hours to say, the kid in the piano bar. Oh, yeah, that actually never went to trial.

Okay. That never went to trial because he, they tampered with evidence, and then he took the fifth in a pretrial meeting with my lawyer. I'm just, again, remembering this from the, I used to do a bit about it in my act. Oh, you did. In your defense. Oh. Because the bit was, as I recall, I mean, that, like, he says, like, your cock was in his hand for like three minutes, and then he, like, said something. And I remember, like, Mr. Spacey, wasn't that part of it?

In a very crowded bar with lots of people looking at me. Well, I mean, your cock could have been in it. But if it's there for three minutes. Mike Hock was never in his hand. Really? No, no. He claimed something else. But yeah, that one never even got to court.

That one was thrown out. But isn't, I mean, this is a really inappropriate question that, you know, again, Keith Morrison, I don't think it's going to ask, but like, come on, man, there is a difference between the heterosexual world and the gay world. I'm not saying that excuses bad behavior. I'm just saying, like, there's no equivalent of a bathhouse in the heterosexual world, right? Palm Springs. Yeah.

What? No. But isn't that? Look, I would say this. I certainly, over the years that I have been an actor, and I certainly, I can't. I kept, I was very, very closeted. I was fiercely closeted. I didn't want anyone to know anything about me.

And, of course, I thought I was so clever that no one knew, but of course, kind of everybody knew. I knew. Yeah, you knew. And I never got near you, all right? I did a great joke about you that the audience just completely didn't get. At the 1997 Oscars, it was Hallie Joel Osmond. Yeah, yeah.

Remember the Bruce Willis movie? Sure, Bruce Willis movie, yeah. What was it? I know maybe you were up against him, or you were there. I see dead people, yes. Yeah, I see dead people movie. Yeah, exactly. The Oscars went on so long this year by the end of the evening.

Haley Joel Osman had a beard, and Kevin Spacey didn't. That's a good joke. So good. And they laughed at the first part and totally didn't. Oh, that's so interesting. They didn't know what a beard was. Well, maybe you should have said I see gay people. They're not sophisticated like us.

Kevin. Yes, I see. You see? We're sophisticates. That's the part of me that's gay. I'm very fucking sophisticated. Very sophisticated, yeah, yeah. So, where were we in my grilling? Well, you know, the question to me now is like, I think you pay, I think my spidey instinct is, yeah, you should get, you should have gotten some punishment. You, I think you were a little too forward, shall we say, a lot of, obviously people got uncomfortable. The question now is, you paid a lot. You know, it's like when Bernie says, rich people don't pay taxes, I'm like,

who the fuck are you think? I pay like 60%, you asshole? Right. It's like, how much is enough paying? So, like, when did this start? So let's say, let's talk about your sentence that you've served. This started, this started in 2017. Okay.

In October of 2017, this began. And I would say, not exaggerating. And you're still in show business jail? Well, I feel less in jail than I did. Okay. But I do actually now feel that when people look at things and when they, I know, as you said, you didn't really pay attention to the details, and I know most people don't. But I think when people actually start to hear the facts, understand what we've won in courts,

I think people now look at this and think, hmm, maybe not. nine years has been enough. Well, that's the question I meant. If I had been a sports figure, I would have been benched for seven games. Do you know what I mean? Why are you comparing it to that? Well, because that's what happens. The sports person is accused of something, and they're benched for seven days, seven games,

and then they're back on the field. Sports figures have been, I mean, who's the guy who, not shouldn't, it's not funny, but he clocked his wife in the elevator, and he never played again. I don't know about that particular case, but I'm saying, if you're hitting home runs, they want you on the field. Yes. I think, I mean, yeah. Yeah, you're right. So I believe we're at a point now where I think people are now beginning to look at what actually happened. And I feel much more welcomed. And I think that things are moving in the direction that we hope they're moving in. Yeah, because I think a 10-year sentence is a serious sentence.

And I know, like, I don't know, thank God, but I surmise that, like, it's an every-day sentence. I mean, you know, certain parts of it. You can't go out, right? I go out all the time. No, always? Always. Throughout this whole thing? Not throughout the whole thing.

I would say in 2018, I didn't really want to be seen. Exactly. And I sort of kept to myself. and I actually started wearing a mask before COVID, which was pretty funny that I was wearing a mask because I didn't want to be seen. But then I got through that, and I did an enormous amount of therapy.

I went through a lot of programs that were very helpful, incredibly helpful for me. And then in 2019, Evan suggested that we sort of take a trip, and so we went around Europe for off and on about six months, and we backpacked, literally. And that was when I was able to, without a hat, without glasses, without hiding in any way, just go on to the world.

And I can tell you that we were stopped 70 times a day by people who were so generous and so happy to see me and asking when are you going back to work? This is Europe? This is all over Europe, all over everywhere. I mean, it's been that way.

But I feel like Europe is a more forgiving, it's an older culture. No. It's been the same way in the United States. They're cool with perverts. It's been the same in the United States. It's been the same in the United States. Everywhere I go.

I know there's people online that say nasty things, but I've not met one of them in real life. That is an interesting phenomenon I've also experienced. And it's funny, you know, you want to say it back to the media, and I won't about, you know, anything, because you just don't want to pick that fight with them. But sometimes when I see Trump,

just speak his complete internal monologue without, you know, doing things that, it's just like he will say something and the one I'm thinking of is like, I've wanted to say that. He just, when he was, somebody pissed him off in an interview when he just went, you're a terrible person.

Right, right. And it's like, I can't deny. You've wanted to do it. And there's a moment or I would, that's exactly what I was thinking. Sure. You're a terrible person. Yeah, right.

It's not a sincere question. It's a got. a thing, it's a, you know, virtue signaling thing. Sure, sure. You don't believe it yourself, but I don't. Yeah. Not our president. He does that. Are you, are you, uh, have, do you have, do you have plans for the 4th of July? I don't have, I haven't made plans yet. Um, but, uh, I think there's a lot to celebrate.

Yeah, I was just, uh, working on a piece for the show that says that exact same thing. Uh, It's amazing that, especially, I don't want to keep picking on the kids, but the younger generations, they just don't have good perspective either about how much better they have it than people any time before them, and how much better they have it here than almost anywhere else in the world. Yeah, I'm also very optimistic, and I believe whatever, I mean, look, what I just said, I think, is echoes what I mean by this, which is that, The society that I have met, the society that I've been introduced to, the people that have come at me over the last nine years, have not been divisive and angry and pissed off. And they have been so welcoming and lovely and loving that, A, I'm so happy that that's the society.

Where do I fall on this scale? You fall very much in that you have been incredibly supportive because Evan is. told me. Yeah. I know you've wanted me on this show for a long time. You've been very much on side and that means a lot to me. Yeah. I'm keeping it real and not letting you off the hook. Yeah. Because that's the reality. But again, we all go through life and the judgmentalness of like everything is a hanging offense or, you know, it's always a life sentence. It's like, no, things are proportionate. That's how the real law works. You know, not everything. The death penalty.

It's true. And it's just true. Again, I hate to pick on the kids, but they just don't have any perspective about how lucky they are. The idea that when we're around the same age, I mean, I'm 70, I don't think you hit that yet. I haven't yet. Okay, but you're on the way.

I'm 66. You look good. Thank you, sir. By the way, for the stress that it must have been, you look good. Thank you, sir. You look like you could, you know, I mean, play. Play the, you know, at that age, again, we're close. All you can do is, the best you can do is be like, not hard to look at.

That's, is that the review? Is that the review? Not hard to look at. Is that terrible? No, not at all. For our age, I think that's pretty good. Sure. You know, we're not Glenn Powell. We never were.

I mean, that's actually much more of an achievement for you in a way, because, like, you know, I was in commentary. I'm a comedian, but you were like playing leading man parts. Well, and if I look at the actors that I grew up admiring, Spencer Tracy, Henry Fond, Jimmy Stewart, Cagney, I mean, these actors had decades and decades and decades of being at the top of their profession. And many of them, Paul Newman, aged incredibly well, played fantastic parts when they were over 60.

Oh, yeah, the verdict. It's an incredible thing. Yeah, the verdicts, one of the great Pullman movies ever. Yeah. Oh, no. And I think actors are better in their 50s, 60s, when they get in that right there. There is something that takes obviously decades to get to this sort of level of, you know, the old thing. Don't get caught acting.

You know, where it's just the most naturalistic kind of performance. I'm also, I'm at a point because of the last nine years. where I had never done therapy before. I had never gone into myself. I had never spent the kind of time that I've spent doing the programs I've done. I'm closer to myself. I'm closer to my family.

I'm closer to my friends than I've ever been. And I'm very curious now. I mean, I've had a couple of wonderful opportunities in the last couple of years to do some really work that means a lot to me. But I'm really at a point where I'm so excited. about what my work is going to be like because now I have gone into myself. I am closer to myself than I've ever been and I'm really excited about working with a collaborator, collaborator, a director particularly, who's going to bring that out of me because I am ready now to share parts of myself that prior I wasn't. Yeah, I mean, I don't think anybody doubts if you got your meat into a, uh, uh, um,

great part. Did you say my meat? I'm sorry. What did you say? Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, because we were, I thought we were beyond that. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I had a little pot before I came over. I'm trying to keep my meat out of things, all right? I'm trying to move on. You understand? With mixed success, let's be honest. I mean, like... Did we just lose a sponsor? You know, a sponsor. Are you kidding? As if we're taping this. But, um, That would be embarrassing. But you did always strike me, again, this is from way afar and just how people talk, I mean, I'm not being snarky about it, but they're different kinds of, with heterosexuals, gay people.

Most heterosexuals get married. And then when gay marriage became a thing, we saw zillions of people who acted just like the heterosexuals, bored. you know and put together and fighting it exactly that's right and then there was people like me heterosexual unlike you but i feel like i was a guy who never wanted to get married and didn't a single was like no this is actually more fun and i'm going to do it and i feel like you were that guy in the gay world it was just it's just more fun it was definitely that guy in the gay world but i will also say this you may not remember this but do you remember like the first times that we met oh god cut because

You're going to love this. Because it was at the Playboy Mansion. Oh, that makes sense. I lived there. Now, I don't know whether or not you, I can't quite remember. I remember seeing you at the Playboy. I have a memory of you there. But I also used to go there on Sundays because Hefner used to love to show movies with, like, a piano player.

And I went there a couple of times, and I think you were there. I did. But I was invited, I think, every Sunday, but I did not make a habit of it. I went on the 4th of July. Right, right. That's the, I remember that, but, I mean, go in the grotto? Did you go in the, no, there are diseases in there that Columbus brought over.

Are you kidding? I mean, oh, the grata, no. And now someone's not bought it and totally changed it, right? Or is it still, I don't know. I haven't been up to the old haunted man. It was, and, you know, they said, I don't know if this is true, don't sue if it wasn't, but I, I think I read that like it was mold.

Oh. It just, and of course, you can't be elderly and breathing mold. You know, it just shows you the, you can be so brilliant and successful in one way. Right. And then you don't take care of the mold. Yeah. Yeah. That, by the way, is the best philosophy I've heard all week.

If you don't take care of the mold, what's the point? So I'm talking like I'm in Palm Beach. Sorry. No, I can tell you're itching to get in the game And by the way, not to, you know, scare you, But, like, I would do it sooner than later Because, like I said, you look generically late middle age You can play anything there

You can even have a love interest who's 30 You know, I mean, a woman yuck, but I mean, it's yucky pussy, but you're a great actor But you're not saying I can't I can't play a wonderful gay character as well? What? That I could play a wonderful gay character as well. Oh, you could now.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. Now that the cat's out of the bag. Hang on. You don't want to be, at a certain point, you know, you're iconic, so if it all goes under the bridge, you could have another 10 years of, you know, doing really good stuff. and then you got to do bad grandpa. Bad grandpa. That's fantastic.

That sounds like a part Jack Lemon would have played. No, De Niro played it. Oh, Bad Grandpa. You didn't see it? Well, if I did bad grandpa, I'd do it like Lemon. Go fuck yourself. Right.

You were a good impressionist. You do... Well, you know he was my mentor, Lemon. I do see similarities in your work. I met Jack Lemon. You will not know this, but when I was in junior high school, I went to Parkman Junior High School in the Valley here. I went to the Mark Taper Forum for a theater audition workshop that he was running.

And I got up and did a little monologue, and at the end he walked over to me. I was 13 years old. And he said, that was a touch of terrific. Really? He said, no, everything I just talked about, this young actor did you. What's your name? I said, Kevin.

He said, but listen to me. He said, when you get finished with school here, you should go to New York and you should study be an actor because this is what you're meant to do with your life. Wow. And 13 years later, I went to New York, I went to Juilliard, and I got the opportunity to audition to play his son in a production of Long Day's Journey in Tonight,

and I won the part. And Jack and I did that play for a year, and he played my father in that. And then we did three other projects together, ending with Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross. If he went on this show, these awesome stories about showbitt is past

and I got nothing. You got nothing? Who was here last week? No, come on. Didn't you Dangerfields discover you in a bathroom somewhere? That's about it. And you think of a groatier scene I mean, I loved him, but he used to come in, he was, when I first

started in 1979, a Catcher Rising Star was the big club in New York. I was in Juilliard at that point. Were you aware of Catcher? Absolutely. I used to stand up. comedy because I was working on my Johnny Carson impression. I never saw you there in that in that era 79 to 83.

Oh, sure. Really? Oh, yeah. Oh, I know that you do a great car. Oh, sure. I love Johnny. I do. No, this is true. I don't make this up. There was an earthquake in Los Angeles this morning. You may not have known it. I was sitting in a hotel room and all of a sudden the hotel starts to move. I thought Ed had fallen out of bed.

But then I realized, how can you fall off a floor? No, that's not true. Ed's the lady slept like a log last night, which is true. When I got up, he was in my fireplace. Weird guy. Anyway. Oh, kids. Do you know I did his show once before he retired?

I got to do Carson with Carson. You think the kids know who that is? What percentage? Some do. I mean... I hope so. No, many will not. Many will not, but God, I miss him.

Oh, I did too. I really miss it. But I also say, I even wrote it once. When he died, I did something for Time Magazine. I think he died in 2001 or something. And I did say as much as I gave him his props that Lennon was the right person for his era. You have to be the right person in that job for the era. Johnny was great when conversations breathed a little more.

Yep. when people didn't have smartphones and attention spans like a nat and you know they had been educated and you know he used to have gorvidal on and and then it was just like just the talk show became a little more like a just more of a party than a conversation do you know i played gorbidol no but you'd be a great choice i played gorvadole in a movie that we shot in 2017 in italy What movie? What movie? It's a movie called Dear Mr. Vidal, and Netflix has shelved it.

See, this is what I mean about show business jail. It's... It's by the way, I've seen it. It's completed. It's ready. And it is a shame that they've shelved it because the director, the screenwriter, Michael Skullberg, who plays the Gorse Lover of 40-something years, I think would win an Academy Award for his performance.

The other actors, the crew, they're also being punished, and they shouldn't be. And I hope Netflix grows up about it because it's an incredible movie, and I have to say, I think it's one of the best films I've ever done. Wow. So I would love for that movie to finally get seen. But they own it outright. They own it. Yeah.

And they say they don't want to release it. So I say give it to us and we'll get it released. Give it to Paramount. Well, we can't have people watching movies from me. bad people. That's what I say. Oh, I see. I see. We can't have people watching.

Now, did you see the Michael Jackson movie? I did not. I'm joking. Did you see it? No, but I'm just saying people are like, it's going to make a billion dollars. Right. And look, I don't think he should, you know, first of all, as I always say, the music didn't rape anybody, you know.

Well, and also, I think the movie takes place at a time when it was before he was ever accused of I know, but if people were really being consistent about this shit, I mean, fuck, you know, even Oprah came in on the side of, I believe, the kids. So, you know, it's so inconsistent. If you want to, you know, forgive and just enjoy the art, some people get that pass and some do not. Or some get, you know, again, I think in your case. Oh, I would say this. I don't think art should be fucked with over allegations alone. Of course not.

That's what I think. But that part is never going to happen. Humans are humans. They love to believe a rumor. Yeah, but in the end, I also believe that, you know, we're going to figure this out. It's going to correct itself in a way that I think. We'll look back and go, what the fuck were we going through? I mean, that already has started to take place.

Yeah. Absolutely. But, you know, it's not like, you know, it's not like, you know, know, it's not like that's going to fall easily. Andrew Sullivan had a great line last week. He said, you know, woke isn't dead. It's just waiting. Like an assassin.

Well, I mean... By the way, do you put this picture up here deliberately? Why, isn't it? Well, it's an Oswald. It's a shot of Oswald being shot. Well, no. It's, you're not looking at it. It's using the original picture of the sheriff's...

Oh, he's got a microphone. Yeah, one is playing guitar. He looks, it's making him look like they're in a band. Oh, I see. Fantastic. The Oswald brothers, yes. I love them. I mean, Kennedy, assassination fans love it.

Oliver Stone was here, and he came in his pants. You love that, yeah, I bet. Did you ever work with him? Stone, no. Oh, what a shame. What a pairing you guys would be. Are you kidding? Aren't we both canceled?

No. No, but he's okay, he's okay? Well, you know, again, it's so inconsistent. He loves Putin, which is like the epitome of bad man. You know, I mean, you can quibble about certain people. Have you invited Putin here, but? I have. Have you?

And, look, I didn't think Mike Pence would ever do my show. He did it a club. Mike Pence? Mike Pence. Yeah, came out to do the evil Bill Maher show. So, I don't put anything past. anybody at some, but it's always shifting. Trump changed the rules of what we expect from a president,

what a president can do, you know. But don't you think that's part of the reason that he won? Absolutely. People are like, he can do anything he wants, so I want to be with that guy. And there is just a, it's amazing, he's at the same time the most full of shit person and also the most authentic. I mean, again, to say to somebody, you're a terrible person.

Say what you want. It's pretty authentic. You've said it to me three times tonight, and I don't know what the fuck I did. You know, I mean, that's pretty, that's pretty, so, you know, I mean, he is who he is. What are you doing for July 4th, by the way? You get some of the... I don't know. I'm going to Washington next week. I'm getting this Mark Twain.

Oh, yes, that's right. Congratulations. But again, I can... anxiety of whether they're going to cancel it or whatever. But it's at the Kennedy Center. Yes. And then they took, no longer the Trump Center. Yes.

And I don't know if that's going to rile them up. You know, it's like this, this tiger that's sleeping. But how would you feel if he suddenly decided at the end of the day to come? That could happen too. That could happen. Yeah, that could happen. Yeah. But how would that make you feel?

Awesome. What an ending? Would that, and by the way, would that change your acceptance speech with that? Would you, would you, uh, no. No. It's not all about him. Well, that's your first mistake. That's right.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That was a perfect smash cut. It's not all about it. One time. You know. That's right.

Classic. Yeah, the classic. It was an alligator, whatever that place is in Florida. The guy comes over to you and you spit because that's all you have because you're tied up because that's going to make things better. That's right. When you're when you're getting. It's not about it. What about a comedy?

That's what you should do. Are you kidding? I love it. Don't you? I did horrible bosses too. I had such a great time. Oh, American Beauty. American Beauty is very funny.

A lot of it's very funny. Oh, it's all funny. A lot of it. Well, maybe the ending isn't funny. I don't remember the ending. Well, of course. Because you were asleep watching porn in the hotel room. No, I love that movie.

It's a great movie. I've seen it more than once, but it was, yeah, that's when I could, oh, that's a good idea, because it's been long enough. I mean, I certainly remember the performance, which I remember at the time, and I imagine, I would still believe, was very much like and deserved to be compared to Dustin Hoffman, in the graduate. Like, there's no jokes in either movie. No jokes.

That's right. And yet, it's very funny. Very funny. And to pull that off, you know. Well, hey, we had a great script. Sam Mendes was a great director. I knew him from theater. And it was his first film.

And it's very funny because, just going back to Jack Lemmon for a second, Sam said to me, he brought the best of theater to that experience. We rehearsed it for two weeks before we started shooting. And it was about the third day rehearsal, Sam said to me, when was the last time you watched the apartment? I was like, well, I've seen the apartment many times, but I don't remember the last time I watched it.

I just watched it. He said, watch it tonight, and then let you and I talk tomorrow morning. So that night I watched the apartment again. Jack Lemon. One of the great movies ever. Shirley McLean. Shirley MacLean.

Fred McMurray. And then I met with Sam the next morning, and he said, the great thing about Lemon's performance in that film is that no matter what comes at him, no matter what happens and a lot does, we never see him change. We only see him evolve. And that's what I need you to do is Lester.

We don't want to ever see Lester change. We just want to see him evolve. It's a good thing I got out. And it was a great piece of direction. Good thing I got out of acting I could never pull that off I mean it just wasn't my thing I did it in the 80s when I was a young comic

But it was like you made movies though Yeah I know it so I'm glad I had One credit to less That's a joke on the movies I did make Cannibal Women in the Parvacabado Jungle on death I actually made that one And Pizza Man and DC Cab

Oh I had a lot of great credits But what about the guy Kevin what's his name from Have you seen my murder she wrote I have not seen your mother she was. Oh, please. I mean, look. And by the way, she didn't do her off camera, did she?

What? Angel Landry. She wasn't even there for one of them. I'm not fucking me. Oh, I got it. Apparently, she never did her off camera. Somebody in a wing did her out of them. She did like 13 of the 22.

But if you, because I know you're an actor, whatever you may think about Mr. Spacey in his life, is an acting maestro. weren't you the head of the old Vic? I was the head of the old Vic, yes, for 12 years. I mean, how do you turn that vague idea of change and evolution into what you're actually doing or saying? But it's the greatest thing when something...

Look, there's a lot of things you can do when you're preparing for a part, whether it's a play or a movie. You can read a lot of stuff, you can take in a lot of stuff. But it's the things that make it active for you that you can actually play that for me are very exciting. So when a director can say something to me that I can understand that as an idea

and it gives me the energy and the focus to move in that direction, I don't know whether it's going to work or not, but it opens me up to trying something in a way that I've never done it before. I've been so fortunate with the directors I've worked with. That's why I never progressed as an actor. That's gutsy.

I was just not willing to be gutsy like that. I was a comic. It was a whole different thing. But don't you think, I mean, look, I always think the writing of comedy, the figuring out of bits, all that stuff is, it's always a risk. Because you never know whether it's going to land or not land. Sweetheart, nothing is worse than the first two years in comedy. Whatever you went to, that's the brutal, you know. Right.

Two drunks, at two in the morning. Right. Nobody laughing, nobody encouraging you, poor, you know, just everything bad. Right. And wondering, the worst part, wondering if you were good, oh, Jesus Christ, am I going to be one of the people who's on, you know, it's like in the army, am I going to be the one who gets shot on this charge? You know, right, right. And, you know, I. Was there, you know, because I've had moments in my experience where I gave a performance, something happened on stage, something that gave a performance, something that gave.

me confidence that I was actually an actor and I was going to do it. Were there moments where something happened in front of an audience? Yeah, I got laughs. What are you fucking talking about? Of course, that's what happened. They started laughing. I was looking for something more profound than just they started laughing. You're more of-show business than in it, aren't you?

Yeah, right. Yeah, they started, I mean, I think I was telling somebody this recently. I can remember the date that June 20th, 1980, when I did a full like 15 minutes and like they laughed from beginning to end. Like it was just, oh, you did

a set and they laughed. It was a Saturday, it was cake, so the audience was... And where was it? It was, catch a rising star. Wow. And it was, I mean, I remember that more than like, you know, my whatever other great acme of

achievement I may have achieved was Like, no, because it was sort of like a stamping of your past. Like, oh, okay, I can, like, get on this ship at least. I'll be at the lowest rung, but it'll be on the thing. Well, this is why I disagree with Wanda Sykes. We need more of you, not less. Oh, were you there at the Golden? No, I know about that.

Oh, that's so funny. It's so funny that people ask me about that. Like, I thought it was like nothing. And then I talked her after and it was nothing. And then, but it's just as when people want to, like, you know, make something, they just do. Yeah. They just, you know, it's fun. But, no, I didn't, if there's a beef, I don't know about it.

Right. And then somebody asked me the other day about what she said on a podcast, and what do you think? I said, I haven't heard. I don't, I'm not on really social media. Are you on social media, Kevin? A tiny bit. But Evan does most of it because he's afraid I'm going to like something I shouldn't like. But I mean, when the phone is in your hand.

No, I'm not. I'm not, no. Never. Not really. No. I feel like you're a little. But this is what I find crazy. If someone has a problem with you, why don't they pick up a phone and call you and tell you? Why do they wait until they're sitting in front of a journalist and then they turn it into a story? I think that if you have a problem with somebody,

then you should tell them. You should confront them about it and not just wait into it. I'm just talking about in general. I tend to see a lot of these things where people attack someone in an interview and say something negative about them in an interview that they didn't clearly say to them directly. And that's kind of how I felt about what she did. I feel like all the rules have just sort of been let to slide, you know,

a lot of articles in respectable papers, it's so obvious, like, this is what we want to say, and then we call up somebody who we knows agrees with it. And you're like, oh, look at the experts. Yeah, that's right, that's why he's an expert. Yeah, exactly. And it's okay, but I always feel like I'm being funneled toward an opinion instead of just given the facts.

That's right. Ma'am, number Jack Webb. Well, I've watched a number of games. these interviews that you've done, and you always take the side of, I want the whole story, not just a piece of the story. Because I'm Scott Pelly. And this is 60 minutes.

And this is 60 minutes. What did you think of that? What did you think of that? What's an interesting question? Scott Pelley, who, you know the whole story. I sort of followed it. Okay, so Paramount, which on CBS, got bought by

David Ellison son of billionaire Larry Ellison and merged it with a smaller company if his okay you know he's 40 or something and they are

close to Trump not close close like they're not mega they're not going to fights on the lawn I don't think but what they have done is they've stood up for Israel they have absolutely hired people who no one else would hire.

Right. Johnny Depp, Brett Ratner, the list goes on. They're unafraid, and I have great respect for what they're doing. Oh, great. Yeah, I do too. I don't know how it'll come out, but in general, I understand people's qualms because the Trump administration

is the crazy corrupt things with crypto and like, you know, tariffs. There's always a side deal for the... Did you have no money in Space Six? for the family. It's just, you know, how he does business. You know, I wet my beak.

But the other side would say 60 minutes was too left to begin with, and this is moving to the center. I know the person in charge is Barry Weiss. I like Barry a lot. I mean, we have a history. I love the free press. She's a Jewish lesbian. I don't think she's some sort of radical Trumper.

You know, nobody gives somebody a chance. I mean, Scott Pelly, to be like this guy, the new guy, and, you know, companies change hands all the time. He comes in, this guy, Nick, and Scott Pelley attacks it in the, how are you meeting, the bagels are in the back. And he's like, you will never be respected here. And he's like, how could you not think you were going to get fired? Right.

I mean. Look, I can only tell you. this, that the right, if you're going to label people right or left, the right and very significant figures on the right, like Douglas Murray. Love him. Incredible man, who Evan also represents. Ah, all the troublemakers. People like Douglas and others on the right have been so publicly supportive of

me and believed that I was not given due process and have been out there from me and supporting me. Yeah, because you're bad and they're bad. Fine. That's what you want to think. But on the left, not a single journalist has stood up and said anything in my favor for nine years. Oh, I have gotten on my own network about Woody Allen, and I don't want to pick on scabs, But, you know, we just disagree. He was, Woody was here. Yeah, I watched that. It was very good.

It seems wonderful. Pretty good. Yeah. No, I'm not lofty. There's no loftiness. Okay, now do Woody in bed with Johnny Carson and include a reach-around. Well, what are you going to do with that golf club? Wait a second.

Hey. Oh, it's like we're doing improv comedy. And why not? Were you ever an improv comic? I wasn't really an improv comic. I mean, I did it in class and things like that. I couldn't. I was generally doing Catherine Hepburn, Jimmy Stewart, in odd situations.

Like Jimmy Stewart and a laundromat running out of coin. Wait, let me get Ed Sullivan to introduce this. And now... Catherine Hepburn... A very fine... Wonderful. Impressions. He works all the clubs

Kevin Casey doing his Catherine Hepburn I have no idea what you're talking about Oh yeah that's Can you imagine if she came here She'd rearrange the furniture Let us be the color

Kids I'm going to make a list of all the people We've been talking about You don't know And then you've got to just give us this If we're still talking about them, they must have been pretty good. Pretty good.

I mean, it is amazing how ephemeral show business. I want to just briefly touch on an area that I think you have some very strong opinions about, which is AI. Oh, yes. Because I'd love to sort of hear what your stance is on. Well, I mean, you know, obviously there's great possibilities there. As someone who is 70, I'm counting on them. I mean, you know, figure this shit out.

Like, where are you? A.I. Come on. Cancer, let's go. Let's go. I thought you were the smartest dude ever. I mean, should I really be giving up all I'm giving up if you can't figure out cancer? When I say figure out, I mean like going to the doctor and him saying, oh, you have a cancer of the blah, blah, blah.

Boom. We know what causes it. and we know exactly what to give you. Right. That's what I mean by figuring out. If you can't do that, then... Then all the other shit doesn't... Well, the fact that, you know,

the father of the whole AI industry, Jeffrey Hinton, said he thought there was a 10 to 20% chance that it was an extinction event to move for... And so did Musk. Musk, for all the things he's done that are a little nutty, he got this right. He said it before it wasn't even on my radar way back, like 2014. He was like, I'm very worried about AI and where this is going and how this could.

And I see exactly what they're talking about now. I see it when I pull out of my driveway because every fucking car does what it wants. Now, my driveway, like yours and I'm sure everybody else's, connects to the street. So when I'm at the end of it, I'm at kind of a T. And sometimes because it's a street, cars are going by. I can see them. I don't need my fucking car. Yes, I know.

I see the car right in front of me. Before I had you, I never once plowed right into a car on the street as I was coming out of my driveway. I actively worked to avoid that. But now this fucking thing thinks that I need to be yelled at. If I wanted to be nagged, I'd get married. I say it to it all the time. And I can't turn that off because it's for safety. Right.

Safety. Right. And, you know, I see white people, they're not going to get me, but I see why people go toward the, I want my freedom. You know? I like that guy. I like the guy a lot. I am that guy at times.

I think we all are. Sure. We all want our freedom. And do you think there are, I mean, it's very interesting how the film industry talks about AI, and there's all these debates and all these questions about what will it do, and will it take parts away from actors, and will everything get... It's already doing that. You know who I'm fucking?

Tilly Norwood. Do you know who that is? No idea. She's the AI actress that is quite popular. And how is that fuck? Well, I found out she's fucking like six million other guys. Well, you got used to that, aren't you? Oh, wait a second.

That was a good, not accurate, but a perfect line. Because see, it's interesting. People ask questions about, you know, you go to film festival and people ask questions about how I feel about AI. And I say, well, all I know is that. the memories that I have of working with incredible directors and phenomenal actors and screenwriters, moments I've had in rehearsal rooms where something happened that wasn't expected. Someone went in a different direction and we discovered something.

Yeah, AI can't do that. And that's about trust and that's about working and collaborating with other human beings. and I just don't have any fear about that being replaced. If you have to ask AI every question you need an answer for, that's not the way that created things happen. I agree. That's not my fear or beef with AI, my own personal job. I think I'll be the last man standing against AI.

My fear is... 97 he'll be... And now we have Mike Pence again. Christ's sake. No, I don't think it'll take that long, but I do think that they will get hold of decision-making. I mean, already, right now, in the present, there is a big debate over what Anthropic can do with their latest Claude. And there are already people saying the head of the company is to his great. credit, we are not going to sell you this until we are assured there is a human in the chain

of command. And I can see, like everything else in Washington, that maybe they put it in now, maybe they get rid of it later. I mean, they never said there was going to be an income tax. And then it was like, when they started, it was like, well, it'll never be more than 2%. But don't you find it interesting that, for example, someone like Martin Scorsese, you know, has just joined the board of an AI company.

And he is the person who has thought about film and thought about the industry. And now people have come out against him because he said we should embrace whatever the advances in filmmaking can be. Okay, first off, could we just not always have to come out again? Can't we just... Exactly.

Yes, that you have 100% of my opinion. Absolutely, yes, I wish we didn't have to do that. As soon as I saw it, I knew people would come out against because you just can't disagree. Because you know what the journalist do, they saw Twitter on fire. Oh, right. Internet goes crazy. Three people. I know, yeah, exactly.

It's a guy quoting his mom. That's right. I know. It's just ridiculous. But, you know, I saw that. And, see, that would just make me not want to come out against Martin. It would make me want to talk to him. Has he not earned through his work as anuteur the right to be heard out on an issue which is in flux all the time?

And by the way, if he's getting paid for it, I have no problem with that. You know, if he's saying I'm worried about AI in this existential way, but for the movies, yes, it can be very good, that's a reasonable position because both things can be true. That's right. That's right, yeah. It's so frustrating. Yeah, it's this weird thing. The sort of the woke world of it all is, it reminds me of, I think, Sean Penn said it better than anyone could have said it. It's certainly better than I could have said it.

He said, it's got to the point now where if you aren't actually a Danish prince, you can't play Hamlet. No. That's really accurate. I mean, and that certainly applies to the gay thing because, you know, this whole idea that you have to, be gay to play gay. Do you agree with that? No. Well, not only to agree with it, but I feel for these younger actors and actresses that I see talk about,

they're playing a character in a TV series that's quite popular where they're playing a gay character, and they feel so much pressure about declaring what they are and who they are, that people are sort of at 21 years old, before they really know, are feeling all this pressure publicly to come out or not come out. And I think that, you know, coming out is not easy. It was not easy for me, although I was for many years, people within the gay community made jokes about me. As if being famous and coming out was like an easy thing. It was actually not an easy thing.

And I resisted it for a long, long time. And for me, I'm sorry that I didn't have that courage earlier in my life. But what, that forced upon you by the scandal? No, not at all. I was actually ready to come out for two years before the scandal happened. But I'm just saying much earlier in my career, because there was so many stories about me, there was lots of talk about that I was gay and I just wasn't out. And rather than the gay community understanding that and saying to me,

we'll be there when you need us. We want you in our community. I always felt that I was being attacked. And that always just was very painful for me. This town is everything its reputation says when they talk about sharks. And I mean, there's some great stuff, but it is also full of a bunch of phonies and backstabbers. And it's just, and the reason I think is because everybody wants to be in show business. and at the pinnacle of it and a star

and everything that they think makes life so great and sometimes it does. You know, there's no denying, there's some excitement there, but sometimes it doesn't, but they want it. And so the things that people are willing to do, I mean, there's lots of movies about this.

You remember the Oscar from 1960 with, oh, I forget, I think it was Stephen Boyd. I don't think I know this. No, the Oscar, he wants the Oscar so bad, and he's just like fucking over everybody. And the ending is, he's up against, his name is Frank, the character. He fucks up for everybody. And then he says, thinks he's going to get the Oscar, and the guy's up there reading the thing, and he says, and the winner is Frank Sinatra does a cameo.

Oh, my God. And that's the beginning. Oh, my God. No, I don't know this. Oh, I'm surprised. You should watch that one. It's really, it's a great, like, soap opera kind of, but big budget, like. I don't know that movie.

Valley of the Dolls. Who plays the Frank character? Him, Stephen Boyd. Oh, Stephen Boyd. But his character is Frank, but that's just a blow at the end of the movie is. That's hilarious. The winner is Frank, and you see him like, sent out. Almost it.

Almost getting up, yeah. I just rewatched the Nutty Professor with Jerry Lewis. What? No, just Lewis. Amazing. Oh, yeah. I saw him, I think, at Ballets Park Place in Vegas with Sammy Davis. Wow.

They did an evening together. Wow. They came out together, did a blah, blah, blah, blah. One of them left. Right. One of them left, and they came back together at the end. It was absolutely insane. Oh, my God.

I would have loved to see that. Chunk. Mm-hmm. I saw Sammy once in Reno. I was playing Reno as probably 1984. Wow. Yeah. And Reno is a very small town.

I mean, it was like, I would hear it on TV, you know, uttered in the same breath when they were doing plugs as Vegas. and he'll be at the Star Lounge in Las Vegas and also Reno and Tahoe. Tahoe was another. And so, like, I thought, and then you get there, and it was almost like a comedy club. I mean, it was just not a, and I saw Sammy, but they all played it, Cosby, everybody,

because I guess they were in Vegas. It's like you're up to Reno or to drive. I played. I was, I think, the last performer to do a concert at the Stardust. In Vegas? in the Wayne Newton Showroom in Vegas. Yeah, because I was doing a tour. I played Bobby Darren in a film.

Oh, I loved that movie. I did all the tracks. I sang all the stuff. And so I went on tour with this band, and we played the Stardust, and it was incredible. That's sort of that kind of Vegas room that really doesn't exist anymore. Yeah, I love that movie.

What is the title? Beyond the Sea. Beyond the Sea, because that was his big hit. Yeah, exactly. Now, sometimes a person really is sort of like born to play somebody. I mean, you kind of look like him and... It was amazing. First of all, I had Phil Ramon as my record producer.

Oh, wow. He did all the tracks, and he was an incredible man. I had Roger Calloway, who was one of Bobby Darren's accompanists, took him out on the road. He was my piano player. I put Peterson Cotty in the film playing my conductor. It was one of great experiences, and we did all the time. tracks at Abbey Road. You have this whole other life as a musician, right? Yeah, I'm doing concerts now. See, that must lead to temptation, groupies, musicians, the road. No.

Like I say, probably... No. I'm at a point now where I'm beyond sort of putting myself in any kind of situation. You're beyond the sea. Yeah, I'm beyond the sea, yeah. You were beyond the sea when you were born. Wait a second. Hang on a second. Well, you know, your body tells you to slow down. Yeah. You know, but... But I feel so energized and excited. I mean, I've been very fortunate last year.

I haven't produced a film that we did called Roadworthy that we did with F. Murray Abraham and Billy Zane. And it was a great experience. See, Billy Zane. Played Marlon Brando. That's right. Because he had to. That's right. Oh, it's pretty good.

Well, he looked... It's amazing. That's good. How much he... Oh, you got their face. Well, here's the point I'm trying to make, Bill. I can't help this, but I've been calling a club abandoned. I don't know why.

It's just what I feel. I can't. Wow. You really, you got the face. I love it. That's tough. You know how we did this. that better than anybody, Jim Carrey.

He used to do an act at the comedy store. Like, I think it was just the faces. He would... Just turn into someone. Just turn his face? Like, I can't do it. He used to, I think, maybe his first appearance on Carson,

he did Clint Eastwood. But he literally showed you as as he, like, made the face... He made himself become Clint Eastwood in front of your eyes. Absolutely incredible. Yeah. I think he's a remarkable person. He's also grown.

and changed and done some amazing adult movies besides watching him give a he's done a couple of um of college speeches at commencement that have just been beautiful really beautiful about where he is yeah i mean he's a complicated dude i know that i don't know him well but you know i i always liked him you know we were never like close close i don't think he gets close i mean he's you know He's a bit of a manic depressive. I think he's better now than he's ever been. Yeah, no, I've been out with him. He feels that.

You know, with other people and, yeah, he's not crazy person. But he just, no, he can go into dark moods, you know. And who can't? Me. I mean, I would like to think I'm not in, who knows what's into. No, I mean, you must have dark days. In life, I've had them. Yeah.

They don't happen a lot anymore. Right. I mean, at this age. Well, that's because you're high as a kite. No, it's because I'm careful as a catfish. I don't know why I don't know. What is it? Like, what are you going?

I'm a careful person. I don't do stuff that's going to get me in trouble, even though my reputation is always being in trouble. You're beep with one of the sights. What? I'm nothing. No, me. I said nothing.

You know, I, but no, I just, I'm a very careful person. I, you know, like... And is that because you're worried about how something might be interpreted? No, I'm worried about pain. Don't want to stave it off. Stave it off, yeah. You know, I think I was a nervous child, you know? Oh, really?

Yeah, I was the kid who, like, when they came to get me for kindergarten, I didn't... Why do you make it sound like it's Blanche Dubois and streetcar when they came to get me? Yeah. Not kindergarten. Sorry. I went to kindergarten. Nursery school. There was something.

They came to get you for nursing school. They came to get me. Because one of my first memories of me being on the stairs in our little house, and they came to the door, like the, you know, the half bus or whatever. I've always depended on the kindness of strangers. Little purple with flowers on it up. Like it was all the other kids, I'm sure, had to get into this van with strangers.

Nothing weird about that. And I threw a tantrum on the stairs about leaving. You did not want to get in that van. I was like, here at home with mom, I'm into it. You know what? And to the point where they, I guess they must have had some meeting in when like, this kid is going to fuck up nursery school. He really doesn't want to go, let's just skip it, and they did.

And they did. And that's why I'm so ignorant today. If I only could have had that. Yeah. Wow. That's incredible. Yeah. I don't know what brought that up.

You know, I grew up in the Valley. I'm a Valley kid. Oh, really? That's right. Thousand Oaks and then the Valley. Yeah, whenever I've, whenever I. read about it like I think Red Easton Ellis

is a kid who grew up in the Valley Upper Red Hills. Robert Redford went to Van Nuys High School. Oh yeah? That's a little before even our time. Yeah. Didn't we just lose him? We did just lose him. Wow, what a lion he was. It's incredible. I've been going through my

archives because I've kept everything so I'm having this experience where I'm doing what would normally happen when you die, which is your relative go through your stuff, but I've actually been going through it myself, which has been really moving and incredible, because I kept everything.

And I found, about three months ago, a letter that I got, it probably was probably 1991 or two. I had gone into audition for quiz show, which was a film that Ray Fines did. Robert Redford directed. About? About a quiz show that was the... Famous scandal.

Famous scandal. Huge scandal in America. In the year 1959. That's right. And I'd gone in an audition for a part in the movie, and I didn't get it. But three weeks later, I get this letter from Robert Redford, thanking me for coming into audition, telling me how great I was, but that he was going to go in a different direction,

and he just wanted to wish me well with my career. I was like, what fucking director writes an actor? He doesn't cast. Who's the guy in your other story about when you were... Who you just told me was like when you were 13. Lemon. Okay, so now we have Jack Lemon doing it. Robert Redford.

Yeah. No. You have none of these stories? Nobody ever told me anything good. Listen, why don't you make up a story? Make up a story that Carson came one night and saw you... Did you do Carson? But he didn't.

All right, well, somebody who you could... I did Carson 31 times. 31 times. Yeah. I did Carson a lot from 1982 to like he left in 92 and then I did it a zillion times with Jay. With Jay, yeah. I mean, Jay is my boy. Yeah.

One of the few people I look up. I found actually one of the things I found from Jay was A, two telegrams I found recently. She sent me a telegram saying how happy he was that Beyond the C got great reviews he was looking for him to seeing. It was just a telegram he sent me. sent me. A telegram? A telegram? What year is this? 1920? A telegrams? I have lots of telegrams from when I did theater.

So people would send telegrams to the theater. What year are we talking about? Probably was, well this would have been 2003 or four. People were sending telegrams? They still send telegrams. Opening nights you send telegrams. Okay, I'm ignorant. I'm going to send you a telegram. It's going to say go. How would you even get it? Go fuck yourself. Does it mean like a kid comes in? wearing the cap like a bellboard?

Telegram for Mr. Species. Yes, exactly. You're going to get that. Telegram for Johnny asshole. Telegram for Johnny asshole. Is there a Johnny asshole? But here's the other telegram I found from Jay Leno. He wrote me this incredibly beautiful telegram when my mother passed away

because he knew how much my mother meant to me. And I thought that was really sweet. Is him a Leno? Leno. Yeah, I know. I can't be in a good war with Jay Leno. He's just always going to win. Oh, he's over here?

He just, like, he does... He used to come around and they brought the drinks trailer, you know, the trolley into your room when you're going to do the show. Yeah, yeah. And then he comes and he's going to see, what do we talk about tonight? What do you want to talk about? You want to talk about your movie? Hey, you want to hear you.

And it was like, it was like so different from Carson because you didn't see Carson. You never saw Letterman before he went on. Nobody ever sees me. I don't know how anybody can do that. You want to save that energy for when you walk out. That's right. Lennel love to come and see you before the show. Oh, I know.

But that everybody has their own. What do you want to talk about? You want to talk about it? It's true. Absolutely true. Say, well, I hear you play with Toy and Train. Is it true that you met Jack Leland? You were like four?

Yeah. But, you know, as I was saying, an hour ago or something, when I had to do that appreciation of Carson and time, I really was glad. I read it back recently for some reason that I had. did take the moment to give Leno his props that you just, you know, Johnny would not survive right now. But, are you kidding?

Unless he had changed a lot. And that's not who he was. He was gracious. He was not loud. It wasn't like screaming to get more attention to the guy. He wasn't partisan. And he wasn't political. He was political, just not partisan.

Just not partisan, that's right. You know. And neither was Jay. They knew how to do that where they didn't like write off half the country. You may disagree or agree with this, but here's something I felt watching and learning as I did. I used to go to the Tonight Show when I was 16, 17 years old.

I still have ticket, my ticket stubs from when I went to the Tonight Show. Really? Wow. And I think over a period of time, I began to realize the difference between Johnny Carson and any other host. Maybe Letterman. But Johnny knew he was the host, and that was the role he played. I always felt Leno played the audience.

Wow, I can't believe I'm here with you. Why, it's incredible. What am I doing? It's amazing. Sitting next to you're such a great... He always played the audience, like I'm one of you. But Johnny played the host. Look, Jay's just a stand-up comedy machine.

He just is. So, like, you can't blame him for really wanting to just do an hour of stand-up. No, not at all. I'm saying there's a difference between recognizing why I think Johnny survived as long as he survived. Yes, but also Jay. They've twice fired him for the crime of being number one. And there was a, he kept it on. Yes, I was the second person to be fired for being number one.

Yeah, sure. Okay, go ahead. I mean, 22 years is an incredible run. And, you know, he found a way to be himself in an interview part of it when, you know, what Jay really loves is to sit around with other comics and write jokes and do jokes. And it's just, and that's why he's such an amazing guy. You know, during the strike, like 20 years ago, strike, like we were allowed to write our, own stuff or something that just didn't have the right he wouldn't i didn't notice any difference in the monologue he wrote the whole thing himself he's that kind of a savant did you also did you ever

find the the i always found this sort of just a funny phenomenon with with comedians that you could sit around with a group of comedians in a bar or a club or whatever and somebody would be telling their jokes and so you know tell them doing their bits you know i got a bit i got a yeah and they do the That's not what we sound like. And you do the bit and people have got like this. Yeah, that's funny. That'll work. They wouldn't laugh.

There is some of it. There would be a little bit. Yes. That's going to work. That's funny. That's not funny. Okay. But it's a cliche like all supermodels are anorexic.

You know, it's, there's some of that. Yeah. And not the people I chose to hang out with because they're all generous. But who, so when you were starting out and all that, who were like, was there a group of comedians you were part of them. Yeah, you wouldn't know most of them, but you would know Jerry Seinfeld. He was one of them. Larry David was a little before me

and on a different club. Robert Klein. No, that was a different generation. That was the one Jerry and I and all of us. We just lost Tom Driesen. Looked up to. I looked up, but I, we did not see Tom and God bless him

and Robert Klein in the same rank. Robert Klein was, I would say more than anyone, the one comedians in my, like, graduating class, looked up to him and Carlin, were the two who were, like, hip, you know, the post-Alan King era, even though Alan King was kind of hip, but it was still a little borsch-belty. Right, right, right, right. You know. Yeah, sure.

But did you ever have those nights where, like, you went and saw somebody get up on stage, and you were like, holy fuck, who is that? Yeah. I mean, I've seen guys that have guys. good sets, yes. And I mean, I'm sure if you ran the names by me, I could think of that. But, I mean, Richard Bellser, who never became like famous that much as a stand-up comic. Much more famous on Law & Order. Yes, it's true. Only because he was like the world's worst worker. He was so amazingly talented and funny, but he would never write anything down.

Oh, well. You know, he just got Stonewood on stage. And when he was like on fire at Catcher Rising Star, that was the best I've ever seen. You knew Jay Moore? Who? Jay Moore? Yeah, I know, Jay. I don't think we were the same. He was not in New York when I was in New York.

Jay took me one night. We were at the, I think we were at the comedy store. We were watching some committees. And then he said, should I call Hackett? I said, what? He said, should I call Hackett? He said, buddy Hackett? He said, yeah, I know Buddy Hackett.

Really? He said, it's fucking one in the morning. He goes, well, he's either up or he's not. So he calls Buddy Hackett, and Buddy Hackett invites us to come to his house in Beverly Hills. Oh, really? And I will never forget this evening. At one in the morning? At one in the morning?

Wow. Buddy Hagen answers the door in his white. Who were you with? I was with Jay Moore. Oh, Jay Moore, yeah. He answers the door. He answers the door in his white. I don't know why I keep forgetting things.

Bathrobe, because I can't imagine what here. He answers the door in his white bathrobe, and we come in to his house. And Bunny Hackett's literally like, hey, you want some cheese? You got to cut it yourself because my wife hates it when I cut the cheese. And literally come in and come out and come out and do jokes. And it was incredible. Incredible. That generation, like I saw Buddy Hackett, this is again right around that time when I was opening for Axe in Vegas and Reno.

And I was Atlantic City. And I was opening for, I think, a singer named Denise Williams, who was. had a big hit called Let's Hear It for the Boy, and no other music anyone knew. So she really had to save it for the end. Anyway, and then, you know, like comics in town, you know, you could like talk your way into getting to see the other comic, you know, professional courtesy. And me and two other guys did, and we went to see Buddy. Yes, and he just told a bunch of old jokes.

Wow. That was his act. and then we were allowed to go back to where the great man was holding court in his dressing room. And he was such a dick in every possible way. I'm sorry. He was funny. I used to like him on the Tonight Show. When he was on the Tonight Show, Johnny would go, well, when buddy's on, no notes, no notes.

We just go. That was his ultimate compliment. No pre-interview. Yeah, sure. No notes, just. But yeah. He will do what he does. He was just every bad thing you could do,

like holding court and if someone, like, dared to, like, cough or something, I'm talking. Excuse me, but do you want, you know, just, like, hit on a bad-looking middle-aged woman, like, which was sad. And then toddled off, like, scarfing all the liquor. He must have ever Every night from the He could like take the actual liquor

And it was a box full of food and liquor That was in the dressing room Then he went out to his limo which was 10 feet away Oh my God What a legend What a legend Come on I'm sorry that's my memory

Maybe he was great all the other days of his life That's very possible I absolutely think that's possible Caught him on a bad night But that's what I saw But did you ever sit down with somebody who was legendary who you really felt a connection with? Alan King. Same era.

Yeah. I was in also Atlantic City. Very Bush Belt. Yes. In the audience, I was very impressed as a 28-year-old comic. He was such a master, and it was not unhip. Right. You know?

I mean, it wasn't outrageous. It wasn't Carlin, but it was things like, you could look up the year because I'm, remember the joke, he said, people tell me I'm middle-aged, I'm 58. Yeah, if I live to 116. It's kind of basic. It's kind of basic, but it's so true. Yeah, right. You just get a great delivery, and then he stayed up and just drank us under the table at his age.

Me and Dennis Wolfberg, I think, was the other comic, God rest his soul. and we were just drinking, drinking, drinking at the bar. You know, for hours is my recollection. I have to share with you something. I've never said publicly. Uh-oh. But I think you'll appreciate it. I'm straight.

So I did the Carson show, 1990, because I'd done a television movie about Jim and Tammy Baker with Bernard Peters and I played Jim Baker so Carson who had such a field day not Tammy strangely enough but Carson

had such a field day with the bakers wanted to have the actor who played Jim Baker on the show so I got booked on the tonight show but by the time

I got on the show there had been elderly woman who ran a Midwest newspaper called the Longtown News or something Robert Klein

and then me. Oh. And by the time I got on the show, I had a minute and a half with a clip. And they were going to let me, and Carson was going to let me do my impression of him, which he didn't normally like, but he'd seen these tapes of me doing him.

He was going to let me do the bit, but we didn't get to it. And literally, the reason it was worth doing was because of what happened in the commercial break. So he said, we'll be right back. And when we came back, it was good night. So I'd done the clip, talked about the movie, That was it.

He said, we were back. And then when they came back to the commercial, the show was over. And he leaned over to me quietly. He said, listen to him. He said, I'm really sorry we didn't get to the bit. I was looking forward to it. But I couldn't get the old woman to shut the fuck up. And Robert Klein decides to be funny for the first time in six years.

Who knew? That is so awesome. And I was like, oh, my God. That was the greatest line ever. All right. Then I'm going to tell you my car's in. even though I've told it here before, I'll make it quick. His last time, the last time I did it in 92,

right before Jay was about to take over, and he's in his parking lot, and I'm walking out, and his car won't start. The Mercedes? No, this was a Corvette, I think he had. This was 1992, and, you know, Jay, the famous car guy, and I said to him, boy, I bet you Jay Leno would know what to do.

He knows everything about cars, and Johnny looked up ice cold and went, man, we'll find out how much he knows about television. Just cold. That's fantastic. No, yours is fantastic too. That's fantastic.

I love. First time in six years. That's just, it was hilarious. It was hilarious. No, I remember, I mean, I guess we're telling tales out of school. We might as well. I remember him ragging on Bob Hope. I didn't talk to him a lot, but I did see him the young comic waiting in the wings,

and he comes down before he went to the monologue. He was not unamenable to saying hello. Sure. And, you know, kind of kibbutzing for a minute before we went on. I remember once, and it was always bitching. One time he was bitching about Ed not getting a new warm-up act. Like, like, get a new joke, for God's sakes. I think he thought there was a receptive ear in a young comic.

Right. But Christ's sake, I'm hearing the shame. And then the other time was what we were just talking about. Oh, Bob Hope. Yeah, yeah. Bob Hope, I must have prompted him because I don't think he would have just volunteered it. Who knows? He was kind of a surly guy, but Bob Hope was on.

And I must have said, like, you know, boy, exciting. Oh, Bob Hope. And he went off on what a dick, but. You think Buddy Hackinson did. And he just did not like that Bob Hope was this 800-pound gorilla at NBC. That's right. And that even Johnny Carson could be kind of bullied a little bite. And he was a terrible guest.

I think he was a terrible guest. I think that everything had to be scripted. And he didn't like Bob Hope for lots of reasons. But yeah, I've understood. Because, you know, I don't know if you know. I narrated the documentary about Johnny Carson on PBS. Yes. Which I pursued because I had such admiration for him, and I pursued it.

And I think, yeah, Hope was not someone he was... I mean, Bob Hope has a terrible reputation. Jack Warner has... I mean, people were a huge Brexit. Yeah, that's right. If you had been around a hundred years ago... I would have fit right in. There you are.

No, but I mean, nobody would... The things that... Did you see the Maryland movie that... Anna DeArmis did? Yes, yes. Disturbing. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, we can't, we don't know what it was like when she was in bed with Jack Kennedy. No. But the portrayal in the movie was like, I would have rather seen like a nuclear war movie. Yeah. These are not boring times we live in. I mean, things are, it's funny, we do have this big July 4th birthday coming up. And so, you know, I was asking the troops today, like, we got it last, because then we're off for a month. So, like, next week, a week from Friday, then, like, the last thing we could.

And what do you do over the summer? Where do you go? Do you go anywhere? Do you go anywhere? I don't. Go many places. I mean, I spent 40 years, like, going every other weekend. You know, I mean, I did it in the last 25 years.

as easy as you could with a plane and, you know, only gone for two days at a time. Very easy, but still, I stopped last year. It's just, it's a pleasure to wake up in my own bed every day. Sure. You know, I mean, I miss. And do you still go out and do occasional? No, you can't do it occasionally.

You can't. No, you have to be in practice. Oh, I see. It's not playing the check. Because you can't just go out, no, I'm going to try this one night. No, I mean, you've got to know it's going to last. You couldn't, you'll suck. Yeah.

And I won't do that. I mean, comics have tried to do that. Many times. Sometimes they get famous and they think, oh, now I don't really have to. I just go back to it. My name will sell tickets. It will sell tickets. And then the ticket holders will be disappointed. When you get to 80, you can do it like Bob Newhart. You just show up and you show clips and, you know, you talk about the career you've had. Please, just shoot me on the front lawn. Just please somebody snipe me out. Send a drone. If that's what I'm doing, you know, that's send a drone. He has something, you know. That's the Bob Hope line that he famously said about, like, Bob, why do you go on the road 250 days out of the year? And he said something like, because the gardeners don't applaud, you know. Right.

And he did. I think he to the, and, no, I don't know if this is lore, but they said he every night got a hooker. Right. Oh, really? I mean, look, this is just scuttle butt. It could not be. true very easily but not preventing me from repeating it it doesn't ring untrue i mean he was kind of known to be you know yeah i don't know if and dolores it was just you know i don't want to get into the

hope's marriage i really don't i mean yeah you know we've we've gone really down here Hill when that's the person we can say the shittiest stuff about is Bob Hope. It would be funny if this was like a horror movie and we have this discussion and then you go offstage and you stumble upon some papers and you see like everything I said was scripted. That's right. Everything. Everything was good. Look at this. He was planning on talking about Bob Hope.

He knew he was going to ask about Bob Hope. How did he know that? But, you know, I remember when he was, I was driving back from college, and they were having, like, his, I think it was his 75th birthday. And they made a very big deal of it. An NBC special. He got like four of specials a year. Sure, exactly.

And he would go on Johnny to plug everyone, and that's what Johnny didn't like. That's what Johnny hated. We're not asking. Bob is coming on Thursday. And he's the lead guest. I told this story too, but it's just too funny. You'll love it. I was on with Bob.

That night, it must have been that night. So I'm on the couch. And Johnny just is like, oh, God, I don't know what to do with this guy. He's a terrible talker, even though he's known to be this genius comic. But I ain't talking of him. So we just got a bunch of stills. So, oh, I'll show the stills, and then Bob will go comment. And one was, Bob.

And he dresses the pope with the big pope had. And Bob's comment was, yeah, they're on the pope. That was it? That was his old comment? Yeah, there I'm the pope. Yeah. I'm sure. Christ.

Yeah. Wow. Wow. Well, the old days, huh? We're like we could do the Sunshine Boys. That wasn't that Jack Lemon? Let me didn't do the Sunshine Boys No, you know who did the Sunshundi boys

was Dick Van Dyke did it with his brother And George Burns did the Sunshine Boys Okay That's right Well that's what I mean about Like hurry up and playing these late middle age Is that something?

You want me to do the Sunshine Boys? Is that what you're saying? Not yet Oh, not yet. Oh, not yet. You don't have to do that yet. Oh, okay, all right, all right. But unless AI is a miracle worker

In 10 years, you might have to No, I got a bunch of projects in the future that I'm very excited about. I got a new one-man show. I played Clarence Darrow, which I'm going to try to do again, because I've learned so much now about actually being in court that

playing Clarence Darrow is going to take on a whole new aspect. I mean, court itself seems like quite a punishment. Just because it's such an unpleasant, stressful place to be... Well, it's also you learn a lot. I mean, look, Evan and I both, I think Evan deserves

a law degree now because he's been so involved in all the cases that we've done and been such an influence. Evan is your lover. Evan is my partner but my business partner, not my partner partner. I'm just brian. Yeah, I know, I understand. But we've learned a lot about

the sort of legal system, and so I'd like to do the Clarence Darrow again, but I'm going to do a one-man show about who I think is one of the great filmmakers ever, whom a lot of people don't know, which shocks me, but it's Preston Sturges.

Oh. Who I adore and who I want to introduce to the world. Like what are his big movies? I could pick them out of it. Lady Eve, the Palm Beach Story. Palm Beach Story, very famous. Hail a Hot Conquering Hero. Oh, yeah.

He was an incredible filmmaker. Screwball, 30s comedy. Screwball, 30, yeah, 30s comedies and incredible. But who else did you just say before that? Oh, Clarenstero. Clarenstero. See, let's tell the kids why he's like a big... Well, Clarenstero's most famous case was the

Scopes Monkey Trial, which has been turned into a movie many times called Inherit the Wind. It's also a play, which I've done. A hundred years ago. Leopold and Loeb was another huge case of his in Chicago. But Inherit the Wind is a great play. Inherit the Wind is a great play. And a great movie with Frederick Moritz and Space Spencer Tracy. But also Orson Welles played him.

Henry Fonda's played him. Oh wow. Spencer Tracy did that movie. Really? Yeah, yeah, a lot of different actors have played that same film. Yeah, it was a hundred years ago and it was a trial the monkey trial because in Tennessee, I think it was in the South. A teacher was trying to teach evolution.

And, you know. And Tennessee, all you could teach is the Bible. And, you know, for people who think, you know, we just never get better, we do get better. They only do that in Texas now. No. I mean, look, Baptists are going to Baptist. They're just going to. You know, I mean, you could.

say, oh, you know, criticize this culture, this culture, but what about the Baptists who women say their wives should submit? That's in Baptist thing. Women will kind of say, well, it doesn't mean get raped, but, you know,

it's certainly not now, woman of the year stuff. It's not glorious dynum, blessed. Yeah, right. But, you know, I mean, sex is complicated. I mean, people like to admit sometimes. Look what I'm talking through.

Hey, it's Pride Month. Yeah, it is Pride Month. What do you do for Pride Month? I just swish around the house. Have you ever been the, like, you know, float, you know, the leader of the... of the float is that what you're saying what are you talking about hang on a second yeah the parade is that the float queen

well they're in a parade oh they have like a king of the they have not made me they have not made me you were the king of the gay parade really no no the no no no gays in new Orleans is that what you're saying no it was it was the marty raw oh I was always in Pangell of the kindness of strangers yes yes so those plays hold up, don't they? Of course. Like streetcar. Of course they do. I mean, you say of course, but like I do from time to time go back and watch like something or somebody will recommend an old movie and the really great ones do.

The apartment I think does, although there are parts of it that, you know, I mean, everything is going to look weird, 50, 70 years. The apartment that look weird to you? The way Fred McMurray acts. Yeah, he's a, he's a, he's a. A heel. Exactly. But it's just not the way you'd play a heel today.

It's of the era. Oh, really? It's okay. I think he's very familiar today, actually. In general, but not like in the specific choices and things that make it dated, which is okay. We understand. It's happening in 1950. It's like, here, honey, and gives her $20.

It's like, okay, what is this for parking? No, this is for sex. It's 19. 50. That's right. 60. Okay. I mean, shit like that. Sure, that's fine. It's fine. I'm just saying the movies as a whole stand up. I'm not arguing

with you. No, you are arguing with me. What are you talking about? I'm saying that one stands up, but there are things in it that are dated. Sure. Okay, okay. But that's fine. Why are we arguing? I'm not arguing. What are we married? Jesus Christ. We're not... There's things that you did last week in this that

are dated already. I guess so, but let's argue what we don't. We agree on this. Okay. But some stuff does not. Yes, that's true. Yeah, okay. But also some stuff...

Sunset Boulevard does. Absolutely. Hugely. Absolutely. The dialogue. Some like it hot does. Yeah. Yes, it does.

It does. Even though you don't like guys in dresses. Well. Oh, really? That sounds like a little gay to me. We're back to a little gay. Well, you know. know, certainly the Romans did not, or the Greeks, treat homosexuality as a distinctive thing the way we do.

I mean, Mark Antony had many lovers. Some were boys, some were women, and it was more, who's cute? Sure. And there was a sheep as well. You may not be aware of. Well, maybe there was. The famous Plato sheep. But, and you think of Rome as a very, and it was a very, and it was a very, very, very much. macho society. I mean, I took Latin in college at Cornell, and it is not a... Did that usually get you late when you said that at a bar? I did not. I took Latin.

Yeah, I took it, and I didn't do anything with it. I mean, for like a semester, like... Sure. But I do remember that, like, unlike the romance languages, Italian, certainly English, and even German for fuck thing, it was just like there's no floweriness in it. Every sentence is like, like, unlike the romance is like, citizen, move that rock on the road. It's very practical. And they're builders, you know, that's what they did. There were builders, conquerors. They didn't fuck around when they conquered you.

Sure. I mean, it was not a gay society, you know, by our standards. And yet it was, that was just a thing. And that just shows that what we think of as what our culture is, it's not completely inevitable. What? It's not completely inevitable. How a society looks at homosexuality.

You can either look at it as we do as like a distinctive thing or like the Romans. Like we don't, what do you mean gay? Right, right. They didn't label it. Yeah, I mean, they crossed over like just much more fluidly. And I mean, what? I don't know how I was. It's just the.

You using the term fluid is at this particular time in our history is amusing. You're right. You got me there. Damn. Damn these clove cigarettes, they just make you forget. Well, what's next for Kevin's case? You would. Well, A, I'm doing concerts, as I mentioned, we've got a bunch of concerts that we're doing this year.

We got one in Rome that I'm very excited about. And you're a pianist. What? No? No. You're not a pianist? I've been accused of being a pianist, but actually, I'm a singer.

I know that. So I have a piano player. Oh. I thought you play piano too. Well, I can play a little bit, but I'm not piano player. So I do the American songbook. I do about 16 numbers. Wow.

An hour and a half show, in which I tell a lot of stories as well. What are some of the numbers? I bet I'd like this. Oh, fly me to the moon. Oh, I love that. I love that. All the Sinatra stuff, you know, that you love and I love. But I also do some surprising things.

A great gospel version of Bridge Over Trouble Water and... Wow. Some things that people don't expect... Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Anyway, I'm also starting a film. A new film I'm doing a little shoot in Italy about the Holocaust, which is a...

Comedy. Which is a very complicated story, but one on a very... to remake him the day the clown cried. Yes, there you go. And so, yeah, there's a lot of work coming up, and I couldn't be happier to be going to work, and I feel very blessed. Well, I hope you put in all this work we get to see this stuff.

Absolutely. You think we will? I do think we will, yeah. I absolutely do think we will. Well, of course, I have to leave the final verdict to the people. Yes. But, you know, I think I was a fair interlocutor. I'm sorry?

I think I was a fair interlocutor. Are you sure you're pronouncing that correctly? I am not. Just making sure. Interlocular? Hey, ha, lady, hangy, ha. And you'll go home now? You just?

Well, I'm actually in California. for just a few days. Oh, you don't live here anymore? I don't live here anymore, but I haven't lived here for a long time. But the reason I'm very happy about, A, being here, and B, that I've been coming to California, is tomorrow I get the chance to do something. I love doing more than I can express, which is to go see Dick Van Dyke. Oh, you're going to see Dick Van Dyke.

I see Dick in the afternoon, who's become a great friend and an amazing man. A hundred years old now. Can I make one suggestion? Yes, please. Do it in the morning. No, I'm kidding. I'm just saying. Jesus.

But then, after I see Dick, who's 100, I'm going to see my drama teacher from Chatsworth High School. It was Mr. Corelli. I still call him Mr. Corelli, and he's 96 years old. And I saw him a year and a half ago, so when I come to town, I try to go visit. When do you think the secret is to making it that long? Well, in both their cases, they love life.

I mean, Dick Van Dyke gets up every day, and he embraces life, and he makes jokes, and he makes inappropriate jokes, and he's funny as hell, and he loves to sing. In fact, what I love doing with him, he loves for me to come over and interview him as Johnny Carson. So we do a tonight show together, and then we sing together. And then he takes me out, and a couple things he insists on doing. He wants to take me to the gym he goes to three times a week. So we go see the gym he's at. Then we take a walk along the Malibu Pier and just being with Digman-Dike, well, people are stopping him and saying most beautiful things to him.

And then we go and bite carrots, and we throw carrots at the horses. I don't think he should go to the gym. He goes to the gym three times a week. I know, but tell him he should work out at home. Why? I'm just saying at a hundred... Just because you don't want to go out in the world. Dick Van Dykvindy like loves going to do with Jim.

I'm just trying to help. What? He's in great shape. Okay. A hundred-year-old immune system, I wouldn't just purposely put it in a place that's known to have a lot of fucking germs. I mean, there's just a lot of grody people sweating on equipment. He doesn't use the sauna. He just does the equipment.

You're in the sauna. I'm in the sauna. Dropping my towel. Exactly. No. I hope you're not mad at me for making jokes. Not in the least, sir. It was part of you.

Not in the least. It's part of your penance. Yes, sure. I accept. And the verdict is for the people, but it must be said that you'd, a lot of penance has been paid. Like there was a lot, I'm sure there's just been a lot of bad days and bad nights. But with penance comes also enormous, I'm enormously grateful. And I've got Evan Loenstein in my life who is the most curious man I've ever known.

And the guy. who, by the way, he spends so much time challenging opinions and challenging ideas, and he challenges me all the time more than anyone, and I'm enormously grateful to have him in my life. You're in love with this guy, can't you see it? Without question, I love him. Oh. But not hitting each other in that way.

Not in that way. Not in the other way. Why not cute enough? I mean, what's your criteria? We just have a friendship that's gone off 26 years. Do you have a friend of 26 years? Do you have a friend? I don't have a steady boyfriend, but I'm in the market.

Well, don't look at me. I wasn't looking at you. I was answering your question. You're plainly wording. Get out of here. Thank you, sir. It's a pleasure. Indeed, a pleasure.

Thank you for doing this. Absolutely. We will both be canceled. We'll both be canceled next Wednesday. Yes, that's right.