Club Random with Bill Maher - Lars Ulrich | Club Random with Bill Maher

Episode Date: April 17, 2023

Bill Maher and Metallica's Lars Ulrich on getting into the performance zone to play the drums, Metallica’s intention with the Napster incident, why Bill thinks Bob Dylan sucks, songs that are so good they became uncool, why Metallica got grief for Fade to Black, handling the fans’ reactions on the Internet, how the audience is always changing, why all bands are always on the verge of breaking up, and the time Lars wasn’t allowed to make eye contact with Mick Jagger. 

Climb and know. How tall are you? On my license, it says 5'8". Me too. I'm closer to 5'7 and shrinking, you know, as we're speaking. Do you think we shrink as we age? Yes. Is that a fact or are you just...

In the head, it's a fact. I think, I don't know if it, you know, when you're young and you, you know, puff your chest out and you're strutting along and you've got this big fuck off attitude. And then when you get older, you get a little meeker and you're just kind of like hiding, you know. Well, you know, I have to. But that you're talking about something that's that psycho related, psychosomatic. You know, yes, if you're, if your attitude toward life is meek and don't hurt me, lady, I mean, yes, but if you stretch, I mean, I don't. Of course, right. But also, I don't think my dick has gotten smaller.

I would notice that. I would notice it, I would care, and it would be reflected in the reviews. I think that, I think it's holding its own. I, you know, I'm not down there. I know I'm holding my own. It's just one after another. Oh, okay.

So, you know what? I came in the last time I saw you, but I'm so, first of all, I'm so flattered that you would come into this. Of course, no, no, I mean it. Because I know you got a million things going, and you're a big rock star, and it never stops. But I know we have talked before,

but I was so happy that having talked to you a little bit, got a little taste of you, that I was now going to get to actually fucking get to know you over an hour instead of like, I don't know where we met, but it was always- Yeah, I was reminiscing with your guys here. The first time you and I crossed paths and the first time we were on a show together was back in the old politically incorrect. We were looking correct, right? On, on, on, on. But that doesn't even count because it's,

you see, but I was, yeah. We were talking about who I was on with and I was on with Dennis Miller. Dennis Miller. And I remember my big takeaway because at that time, most of the press we were doing, you know, we were doing interview with Kurt Loan in the 90s. Yeah, this was, this was in the spring of 2000.

At that time, pretty much all the interviews on the press, we would, you know, MTV and music stuff and it would be all sort of music related stuff that I'd never been on with a comedian before. And I sat next to Dennis on your show and I remember he spoke three times louder than anybody I had ever been around, or you know, on presser public.

He was sitting just, so you know, you know, a build, this and that. And he, everything was really, really, and I was sitting next to him. Go, what the fuck? And I realized that when you're around comedians who are used to, they're talking on their own in a club or whatever, they speak loud,

they speak assertive. Not me. And they're really, not me. I'm not gonna do that. And I don't want to, I'm talking about. I'm not gonna be lumped in with all comedians. Okay. Over.

I mean, Dennis had a persona. Yeah. My persona is exactly who I am. Of course, I know that. Right. That is it. And I'm not putting Dennis down. Look, we're in show business. You have a persona too, by the way.

Of course. Right. Of course. Yeah. And some of that is sprung from who you really are. I think the one reason why you're iconic, even to kids, which is quite a trick at our rage, to be popular with kids is because they love authenticity.

It's the one thing they can be intuitive about. They're not taught anything in school, but they're savvy about who's fake and who's not. And they read that on you and that comes out of who you really are. So yes, you have a persona, but it's just amazing. I was based on... When I get up on stage and I was doing an interview earlier today

and who I was talking to was like, when you get up on stage and you're pulling these crazy faces and you're so animated and I said, you get up on stage in front of ex-thousand people and you're in a zone and you just lose yourself in that and you become whether it's a character just lose yourself in that and you become whether it's a character or whether it's a persona or whether an exaggerated version of yourself, you definitely morph into something else.

And also you have to. You're beating something. You can't be beating something in an unanimated way. You can't play the drums timidly. It's a percussive instrument. In a band like Metallica, that's very difficult to do to play timidly as I will agree to. And your friends, I mean your fans, would be a crest fall and it would be a travesty. So I don't know why we're even worrying about what people say.

But yes, the point was, I knew you from way back, but we never really sat down. That's right. And then, but I always did admire the Napster thing with you. That was like my, I was like, that's a guy who was after my own heart, not afraid to get booze. I would say that is like the rarest thing in show business. Are you, do you have the balls to get booed by saying something that the audience, because

most performers are pussy whipped by the audience? I mean, you should definitely be led by the audience to a degree. You want to please them, I certainly do. But there are certain points where they should not be able to push you. And that certainly would not popular. No, I know. That's a given. I fully agree with that.

In the case of Napster, the intention wasn't to go out there and get booed. The intention was to go out there and stand up for what we believed in. Then the subsequent shitstorm that came in the wake of all of us off guard because we were thrown down the gauntlet for more of a back alley fight and we didn't know that back alley fight was gonna take place in front of the whole world. So, but generally, I fully agree with what you're saying.

You know, when you put music out and you're doing shows or you put yourself out in some sort of creative space, you have to be able to take the punches. What we have done over the years is pride in ourselves in never letting them know that they got to you. So when people talk shit or write something,

you know, review stuff, you just go, that just, you know, that just, I mean, feeling stadiums is the best revenge or the best answer. Yeah, the old saying, it's 30, 40 years ago, when you remember, it was all about, are they selling out? Are you selling out? Is so and so selling out? And the answer was, yeah, we sell out wherever we go. That was one that was so, that was one that was huge. So much that it sort of 20 years ago we stopped saying. Everybody stopped saying.

But remember the culture at that time with rock and roll and with comedians and if you became too mainstream, almost by definition, a part of you were selling out because the people that embraced you early on on the out of fringes didn't want you to go mainstream. The list of people who have got an accused of selling out is a very impressive club

to be in. And you know who greet you at the door at the club of people who got booed actually on stage for selling out Bob Dylan of course With his electric guitar. Oh my God. He's playing electric. Call 911. Two points.

Where's the reaction? Yeah, oh. For the kids. Let the director. Kids don't know this, right? Bob Dylan was famously a, I mean, he was, been to Woody Guthrie. He was born in 1941.

That was who he modeled himself after. I've heard those early Dylan records, oh my God, it's like, it's horrible to me. I'm just not into that kind of music. It's folk with that harmonica, sounds like a busy signal. Okay. So, note to self, never sign like a busy signal.

No, don't play the harmonica. I don't think you're in danger of doing that. So, um, note to self never sign like a busy signal. No, not don't play the harmonic. I don't think you're in danger of doing that. But then Dylan, so then Dylan became the voice of the generation and blown in the wind. Of course. And what about that stuff? Okay, so blown in the wind is still his old, good song, but it's still his old style. And then was it, it's 65 or something?

I think maybe, maybe it wasn't even too late. I think he showed us, I think it in 65 or something? I think maybe it wasn't you. I think he showed up. So I did a new port. I think it was 65. It was some festival and Dillard comes in port in Rhode Island. And was that where it was? And lays the electric guitar and a whole generation fucking shit their pants and didn't know what to do. I mean, their whole like,

Orpid, you know, their whole, their whole, like, orbit, you know, their whole orbit just got thrown off track and... And of course... It's never the main bulk of the audience. It's a few pretentious assholes who probably write the reviews, right? What differences does it make? He was playing electric guitar.

Yes, and then he's to use an acoustic guitar sometimes, just like all bands do. What a producer says, what, how do we make this record sound the best? Maybe it's electric on this. It had nothing to do with his voice, his poetry, and I think his music got better. I love-

So the same thing happened to us on our second album, right, The Lightning. We had, the first album was 10 or 11, pretty move it along, flashy rock and roll songs, and then on the second album, the fourth song in, Fade to Black, James was playing an acoustic guitar. Right. And the hard rock and heavy metal community went, oh my god, Metallica just sold out.

They have an acoustic guitar in their album. Well, everybody was up in in arms and to this day Almost 40 years later. It's one of the Five songs that we have to play in every concert and not to get tired and feathered and chased out of town You know, well, I mean Led Zeppelin Which is kind of known as the granddaddy of metal, but much of their stuff is acoustic. Yeah, and a lot of it roots back to English folk or music, and especially like Led Zeppelin III.

I mean, it's almost all in acoustic. It looks at a lot of rock stuff, but stairway to heaven and all those songs like the Battle of Evermore and all those are beautiful acoustic songs. And like I said, a song like Stairway to Heaven, there's a great album to be made of songs that are so fucking good that they became so popular that they somehow became uncool. Like Stairway to Heaven, uncool. Yeah, you know, the cliche is that every guitar store or every guitar center in the world has a sign on the wall that says, you know, when 16 years come in and want to try the guitars, please do not place their way to heaven. Is that true?

That's another one of those crazy exaggeration. Okay, now there's a perfect idea of why the whoever these fucking critics are morons are morons because like it's not the acoustic or the electric, it's the combination. It's the fact that we're building to this place in the song or you could start hard and I guess go. Yeah, it's called it's a it's called dynamic. It's called dynamic. And it's called producing a record that you never have done because you're taking taking your fans in the audience.

You're typing and they're playing. Exactly. Not that typing isn't nothing, but in your case, mostly it is nothing and they're playing and you're typing. And listen, we, you know, whatever it's worth, if Stairwear to Heaven is one of the Blueprints Deep Purple had a similar song called Child and Time.

And then, you know, that sort of morphed over into bands like Judas Priest had a song called Be On the Realms of Death. Iron Maiden had a song called hallowed be thy name. And those are the songs that were you going on a journey and there's acoustic guitars and there's melody and there's the big, you the big crescendo finale and those eight or nine minute songs, we have half a dozen of them,

like I said, fade to black. It was the first one where there was acoustic guitar and the metal community lost their fucking shit. And it's fine. 40 years later, we're still kicking along. Some say doing as good or better than ever. And you're right. It's those things you just, it becomes part of the ride. We're still kicking along, some say, doing as good or better than ever. You are. You know, it's those things.

You just, it becomes part of the ride. Obviously, the major difference now is that 30 years ago, when you put out a record, if you wanted to see what people thought of it, you would read about it a week or two later in Rolling Stone on Corang Magazine on Entertainment Weekly or whatever. Now, when we dropped the first single from the new album in November, the song's three and a half minute long, I could read about what 10,000 people thought about it,

four minutes after we dropped it. And that's a little bit of an upside down version of reading about it in two weeks later on Rolling Stone from back in the day, you know what I mean? So that instant thing of having just comment after comment after comment, accessible five minutes after you drop something is you know you got to if you go below the line as I say, then you got to just be be be make sure that that stuff doesn't penetrate because it can it can fuck with you you if you let it. So I'll occasionally scroll down there and somebody says, that sounds great.

That sounds like this album, that sounds like Kill'em All and somebody else says, these people should go kill themselves or whatever, and we take all of it and stride. And it's fine, you know. But that's a different part of the culture nowadays. Obviously, then it was 30, 40 years ago. And besides getting the review for a minute later, I mean, only for a minute later,

you're also getting it unfiltered. Exactly. You know, it's not what people are thinking. And yet, I mean, I don't have the balls from the large to go on social media. I don't know what they're saying about me, and I don't want to know. I'm sure there's a...

No, it's... And just for content, I don't do it a lot. But when you... No, of course you want to do it. But when you've been working on a record for a couple of years, and you haven't been out at house for three or four years, and then you drop a song, it's nice to share it with an audience and putting it on perspective, you know, 95% of it is positive, but there is always somebody who comes

up with a very inventive way of saying something really nasty. And that's what I think. Keep on going. I wasn't sitting on their moms, computer down on the basement and typing away. And it's just part of what it is. And it's okay. And it's okay. And their mom's basement. No, I was not putting it down for that. I was giving you props because I don't have the guts to do it.

I really don't. And I should. I mean, it's always better. I can't even watch myself. I don't watch my own show. And I should. That would be better. You'd learn things. I can't even watch myself. I don't watch my own show and I should. That would be better. You'd learn things.

I would like to do that, but that you're right. There's always gonna be one, and that would stick with me for the rest of the day. I mean, I don't have, I guess people think I have thicker skin than I do, but no, I mean, I think, you know, we're're sensitive at your business. No, when we are. And of course, but there's a part of,

I'll tell you like early on when we were in our 20s and we were coming out of that outside of the mainstream, we were obviously on the edge and hovering in that space. And you know, we wanted to explain ourselves and we wanted to have the mainstream rock audience understand what our point of views were and what was fueling us and our inspirations and all that type of stuff and then when somebody would hurtle something at you it always felt like the best fuck you back to them was that it completely just bounced off you. So when they said something

nasty to you, Metallica fucking can't do this, can't do that, they suck, they're bleb bleb bleb. It was like, what are you, we went the best, the best remedy was to ignore it and keep charging for it. Because then, you know what that did? That wound them up even more.

Because they were expecting to get into a confrontation with you and get into a debate with you. And when you ignore them, at least back in the day, that was the case now. to get into a confrontation with you and get into a debate with you. And when you ignore them, at least back in the day, that was the case now. Now it becomes this whole two-way street. The minute you engage, you're sort of caught in this thing. But I have to tell you, now I'm a pretty fairly, I would say, a stu- observer of the music scene.

I'm a music lover. I have a lot of music. Okay, I'm not, I don't, I'm not in the business. I certainly have no musical talent. I don't read the trades every week. But just as someone who's not unaware of the music business or your play senate or your records, which I have in L and C.D. form, going back to, okay, so I, let me give you

my impression of what you're saying, because it's not my impression. My impression is that Metallica, not that, it's not music for everybody. It's a little too hard for a lot of people, but the integrity reputation, I feel, is never been assailed. I don't remember any, I don't remember, I'm sure you can always find it. But I feel like there are certain people on that, like, you never became anything close to a joke, even though you've been around. Just time can make some people to, and there are bands who are sort of known, there's sort of a soft, or they,

sometimes it's not even deserved. Like I remember Hoody and the Blowfish had a huge album in the 90s and everybody loved it. And before even the second one came out, they turned on the first one. It was like, wait, this is the same thing that you said was great a year ago and now it's super unhatured.

So they don't. But I feel like there is none of that ever tainted metallic. I feel like Pearl Jamison of the band like that. You too, I would say sometimes has done goofy things like put out forcing you to hear their record on your on your phone or whatever that thing they did. but not as a band, as a music. They've been around a lot. And some people, I, bands just have, even in the snarky press, a great deal of respect. It never veers into what I feel like

you seem to be aware of that I am not. No, it, no, it doesn't. I don't remember that. I'm a genius. No, general is, generally. Like, Nickelback's, I've heard that. I like, nickel-backed song. I've heard that. Not to not nickel-back. I'm not aware of their music,

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And you can't just come back to the show. And you can't just come back to the show. And you can't just come back to the show. And you can't just come back to the show.

And you can't just come back to the show. And you can't just come back to the show. And you can't just come back to the show. And you can't just come back to the show. And you can't just come back to the show. And you can't just come back to the show. You brought Napster yourself in the wake of that. There was definitely some backlash. You know, when, like I said, you know,

the fate of black acoustic guitars, those are few things, you know, along, you know, when we did this incredible song with Mary and Faithful came in and sang this beautiful melody over parts of the song. A lot of the super hard rock fans couldn't quite sort of understand who Mary and Faithful was or her place in a Metallica song

When we've done some things say with the San Francisco Symphony There's occasionally somebody says why are you doing something? You know we have Always talked about our need to morph and our need to move around the musical landscape and obviously Everything you do is not for everybody, but I'll agree with what you're saying generally. Yeah. Certainly compared to the artists that you've just mentioned. It seems like we've had a pretty stellar ride with critics and so on and with the broadcast.

Yes. For good reason. You earned it. And these people who are your critics, it seems like the theme I'm getting when you do get criticism. The theme is stay in your lane. And the answer to that is fuck you.

What, first of all, first of all, what? What is the lane? First of all, I know what they think of the lane. But again, but I will say if you put 10 of those people on that couch over there, they'll give you 10 different answers to what that lane is. Once you break it down. Even is. Once you break it down, even better.

Yeah. Once you break it down, even the specifics. And so that, right, that to begin with is just a lost cause. It's not even a discussion that's worth, you know. When you're an artist, you lose some and gain some. There are people who I think probably have steadier fan

followings than I do or you do because I quite frankly think they're less of an artist. Whereas I have lost audience because I will not bend the knee and say anything I don't really believe. There's a lot of woke people who think woke is the same as liberal and it's not. It's very often the reverse of liberal. I know you get it both sides. Right, but I mean, I've gone after the left a lot more in the last 5, 10 years because they became much more fucking ridiculous.

That is not a choice a lot of people would make and you do pay a price paid by, I'm not bleeding about it. I'm happy about it because, you know, if that's where you are, we're probably not going to see eye to eye. And I love to do the show for people who are like, oh my God, you said what I was thinking or I wish someone would say. And if I'm going to say things that are going to disappoint you because they're true or facts, then you're going to, and it's okay to lose.

It's okay to lose some because you know who you get. You get the people who belong with you. And that's same to like your relationships in life. Are you friends with everybody you were in high school? Of course not. No, of course. No, right. You grow some people you keep, some fans you keep, and sometimes you, I'm glad that it's a dynamic thing

that it's constantly turning over and changing. And you're getting, you know, I'm sure your shows have like lots of young people. Well, they weren't even around for that shit. In the wake of the Stranger Things phenomenon that happened last year, we're all right. So, you know, Master Puppets and Metallica got introduced to a whole new audience because of one TV show. I mean, it's crazy how that keeps happening, that revolving door of I mean, it's crazy how that keeps happening, that revolving door of kids that get to that point, and then have to have their years with Metallica.

But of course, we're not the same that we've been. Of course, we say things differently. Of course, we try to always, like you're saying, be true to the moment and true to what the beliefs are. And at that time, there is one additional part, which most of the artists that you mentioned are bands. And so it can be tricky sometimes. And if you're a solo artist or if you're a Bill Mar

or if you're a comedian or a any solo artist, you're meant to Dylan or if you're a springsteen or a Neil Young or whatever You're writing just on your own opinion if you're in you too or if you're in Pearl Jam or if you're in who'd in the blowfish Or if you're in Metallica, right? There's two things at play number one the individual's opinion and then a collective opinion. Yes, and sometimes part of the reason like if, if you take, I don't know, Sting, he started off in a band.

Right. And then he went solo. Neil Young started off primarily groups. Sure. So a lot of artists start off in collectives. Yeah. And groups and gangs in gangs. And then they end up going, it takes too much work, too many resources,

too much to make it function. It's easier for me to go do my own thing. If you notice that there are fewer and fewer bands in their 50s and 60s, you know, nowadays obviously there's chili peppers and there's Metallica and there's you know, guns and roses and air and there's stones, you know, and, and, and, and, but I mean, all of, I mean, look at the relationship between making Keith, that's been well documented how they couldn't be in the same room for 20 years at a time. Well, I mean, it's, it's, it takes a lot of, it takes, we spend more time, effort, and resources on making the band function. I know, I saw that document.

I saw that document. And that's 20 years ago. Right. But it's not harder now because we're more respectful of each other, but there's more time that goes into making and work. I'm so glad you brought this up because this is like a question I've always wanted to really explore with someone who would know this

because like in the Eagles documentary, Timothy B. Schmitt at one point says, every band I've ever known is always on the merger breaking up at all times. Which I thought was such a great line. For good soundbite, yeah. That's a great fucking soundbite a good sound bite, yes, great fucking sound bite. And it's, you know, it just made me think,

yes, when I think of bands and when I know of them, or at least what the rumors are, it's a lot harder to name ones where they get along. I mean, you too, famously. You too, I think if we were sitting here with a couple of guys from the chili peppers and a couple of guys from Mews and a couple of guys from other bands that are still, you'd be still getting, yeah.

We'd all agree on one thing, which is that you too is the ideal of being in a band that we all look up to because they function, but they were all, more or less grew up on the same street and went to same schools. And they've all known each other, and they have the same DNA running through their bodies for fun. In Thai, I mean, that's true of a lot of bands.

That's the Beatles. It's also not true of a lot of bands, including the one you're sitting here talking to. I remember, I grew up in a very liberal artsy upbringing Copenhagen, Denver. James Hetfield grew up in pretty much the opposite of any of those words here in Southern California and in Follerton. Do you know what I mean? Kirk Hammett grew up in the mission district, also in a very liberal sort of post hippie

upbringing and robbery. You know, so, you know, so the Beatles, yes, you two, but the Beatles also, I mean, they last at six years, you know, they put record. Right. What record? Between six and a, so we put our last record out. There's a bit longer between our last record and this record than the Beatles put records. Right. I know. They put out 10 records. No, I know.

And so you have to take some of that into context. So I'm just saying, you two is sort of the, but you two is the pinnacle of what we all aspire to because of the fact that they, they can still function to the way that they do. But they are. You brought up the Eagles. I mean, they are, they are more versions of the Eagles and everybody else, the Cosby Stills and Nas and Youngs

of the world that just can't do this and that it's easier for all of them to go and do the solo artist stuff. Okay, but let me throw, I'm just interested in this. So, let's, okay, now we've explored the few bands who are nice and stay together. That is where. So, let's, okay, now we've explored the few bands who are nice and stay together. That is where.

The short conversation. And you're one, that one. I mean, you guys have been together for 41 years. 41 years. Unbelievable. That really is kind of the exception because most, I mean, bands just don't stay together for that one.

But, okay, say they do, there are different lineup changes or, like, marriages. Some marriages don't end in divorce, but they hate each other the whole time. This is together for convenience. This is Mick and Keith, right? They say together for convenience. Right, because, well, because you don't have,

you know, Simon and Garfunkel's concert would sell stadiums, and Solo would, you know, even though Paul Simon was, come on, you know the... I'm not gonna go there, but I know what you're saying. You know what I'm saying, yes. We all know what we're doing. Okay, so, you know, there's no rolling stones

without the two of them, and they both know it, and they both like being the rolling stones of white, wouldn't you? And they go on tour, and okay, so between the ones that break up, and the ones that hate each other, there's a lot of hate. This is what I'm trying to get at.

Why? When he said, all bands are about to break up at all times. What are the issues? And this is where another person in Rock and Roll said to me something. He said, it's always about either, you didn't like my song. I didn't like my wife. Or you took that girl. Okay, you did like my, a lot of bands break up

because other wives don't get along. I remember those stories. But there's a time you didn't even have wives. Of course. Right. And then it's you took that girl or that. So is that it? Is it you like my song and you took my girl?

Listen Bill, I answer the question. I am answering the question right now. The answering the question is that it's a little bit of all of it. I mean, it's not just there's not one sound bite that covers all of it. You know, a lot of times people in bands have to stray, you know, so it takes the rolling stones.

I mean, they basically didn't do anything in the 80s, you know, for almost 10 years. Make one off and did his own thing. You know, the kids, the kids went off and did, and then they daple in their own solar years for a couple of years and then they go, hang on a second, it's no fun playing with 27 people at the bottom line somewhere on, let's get back and get the stage. Yeah, it's called the hell freezes over. That's right. Because they literally said they's get back and get the stadium. The Eagles called the hell freezes over at the top. That's right. Because they literally said they will get back together.

They will get back together. Then they went off and done and planned and everybody did their own thing. And then they came back again together. It's a little bit of all of it. Most rock and roll bands that are successful have a couple of people, you know, buying for pole position, buying for pole position.

Of course. Who other guys are going to steer? And so if you can get through, if you can get through that phase where you take turns steering and leading and that you don't mind taking a backseat and have enough trust and enough respect for your partner to know. If you lead on this song, if you lead on this record, or if you lead with this lyric, or whatever, I can hover back and then we take turns and you can balance it. You have a much higher chance of getting through it, but it really is ego. I mean, all great rock and roll bands are funded

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Also, this is so interesting, the thing you said about trading off the leadership position, which is, you know, ideally like what a country does with leadership. We have elections, or at least we did in the past, where people just, you know, sometimes the Republicans are in charge, sometimes the Democrats are in charge. It's the tender one that's went fast. And we all accepted that until fat ass McDushbag basically tried to overthrow the government. We're like, you lose some Don. Why nobody ever says that to him?

You're fucking baby. You know, like when? It's that pendulum and growing up in a social democratic European society, you know, it's that pendulum and growing up in a social democratic European society, you know, it's, you know, have a parliament and you have 10 parties or you have 15 parties and you have all those different kind of things. And everybody, it kind of shifts and we would always look in America and go, it's the thing about America is it's yes or no, it's black or white, it's Republican or Democrat, it's winning or losing, everything is these juxtapositions, these two extremes, but in European attitudes,

most of the answers to all this stuff lies in the middle, lies in this hodgepodge of everything, and in America it's when lose black, white, yes, no, democratic, Republican, and that. Our economic system also, isn't it? Yeah, and many Europeans come here because they feel like, as one Canadian said, they cut down the tall trees where I'm from.

And here it's true, you can grow as high as you want it, as rich as you want. But if you're a loser, Cia wouldn't want to be, you know you want, but if you're a loser, see, you wouldn't want to be, you know, we're, they don't, we don't, even though we do have a generous safety net, it's still not like all for one as much as it is in European country. But I just want to ask you about this thing about leadership, because that seems to be the key thing, just like in a democracy, can you switch back and forth the leadership you're

saying in your bank, you have. I think we've managed to do it, but not without putting a lot of effort into it. So who's the president now? What? What? What? What?

Not without, not without, you know, it first you have to go to the trench warfare, and first you have to go through the thing where for 10 years, every day that I would go down to the studio, I would put my battle armor on. And I would go down to the studio and I would be prepared to stand up for the one way that I believed in, you know, in me was the right way. And if somebody said, how about we do a diff way, then the battle armor would come on, we would go at it. Then you wake up on the other side of that experience

that was in that movie, some kind of monster, and you go, holy shit, maybe empathy is actually a word we can work with here. Maybe I can do a one AD and see it. If I'm not doing it, of course, it's all of it. But now in our band, yes, I'll lead on something, I'll lead on a song, I'll lead on something. I'll lead on a song. I'll lead on a direction.

James will follow along. James will lead on something else. I'll follow along. James, you take pole position on this one. I trust you. So you're saying it's a song by song thing, okay? Because when I... That's the easiest way to...

But I'll break it down musically, yeah. At least the analogy certainly does not hold for the Beatles where there was a definitely a lead change John Lennon was undoubtedly the leader of the Beatles when they started it was his gang they looked up to him it was his band okay mid it switches. It, Paul McCartney becomes the leader of the band. It was his idea to do Sargent Pepper. It was his idea they would do the Magical Mystery movie. It was his idea they, you know, he just,

John Lennon was doing other things. No, don't go. But that's, but, but, but right there, I think you hit the nail on the head, is that these things, these things can ebb and flow by somebody else becoming leader or taking the pole position. That can happen in two ways and that's important. It's not that the one guy comes up and removes the other guy. It's also like you just said about Lenin kind of pulled himself back because he got interested in other things. And so there are each one of those situations are unique in that sense. And there is an ebb and flow and a fluidity to it. And again, you said 10 years, so we

could stick with 10 years. We're 41 years into this journey. I mean, we've had, we've had fucking, I started, James and I started this one with 17 and we're 117 now. And you know, so it's like those dynamics, they do ebb and flow depending on where people interact and all that. So it's a year about to go on, right? But how many, where it starts what day? It starts April, the ass end of April, April 27th.

So glad you reminded me of Mindsloridate. I'm not, the ascend of April, April 27th. I'm glad you reminded me of Mindsland. I am not, I'm not need that. I'm not going quite the size venues you are. Like we're out, everyone has to make a living Saturday, April 27th. Well, no, April 22nd, they can't see both of us the same time. I'll be at the theater at MGM National Harbor

in the middle of America. We're starting in Europe in April. So we'll be in Europe in April, May and June. And then we start in America in August. Okay. And also Sunday, April 23rd, this is me again, it's the Durham Performing Arts Center and Durham, North Carolina. Okay, so, you know, like in the NBA, they have something called back-to-backs,

like where you play one night and then the next night, which if you've ever played a basketball game and I still play in them, it's like it's tax-free. And, like where you play one night and then the next night, which if you've ever played a basketball game, and I still play in them, it's like it's taxing, especially at my age, but at any age, you know. So that's why, if you have to do a back-to-back, those players, they know.

That second day, that is an opportunistic time for the other team, because they're just, you know. Sure. We have our version of that. I mean, we do. What is your version of that that? So yeah, we used to call them either two in a row, three in a row. But you don't you avoid them all together now? Yeah. So, uh, that's what now, now, yeah, now we don't, we only played singles. So this whole tour that we're embarking on, we're playing two shows in each city and we came up with a stick of two shows, same venue, a Friday and a Sunday, and two completely different shows. No songs repeated from one night to the other.

So smart. 100% different set list. And you buy one ticket for two shows and you can come in and see and now you can also buy single tickets. But that is really smart. So it's kind of bored because you don't get bored. There's no time different song. Well, you're playing different songs. We're playing 100% different setless. But my point was that it used to be that, you know, if we were playing two shows in the same city that we would play, you know, two shows in the same venue that you were playing back to back. Sure. Now we don't even play. play, now we have to rent the stadium,

obviously for the setup for two, three days, but also the stadium sits idle. So if you play Friday and then to take a day off Saturday and then play again Sunday, but it's the only way to get through it and it's the only way. So finally, and maybe in the last 10, 15 years, we came around and this is no disrespect to our managers years, we came around, and this is no disrespect

to our managers, but we came around the other side and basically said, listen, we need to start putting some boundaries and some parameters around our, what we're willing to do because back in the day, we would do three, four in a row and then have one day off and then three in a row and then one day off and then two shows and one. And then you know, I'd have, you know, a week off between going to Europe and America. And finally, like I said, maybe around 15, maybe around the some kind of monster thing, we took charts and said, we're willing to go out for this long, for this long, and you know, blah, blah, And at one point, when I was fighting a child custody case between sort of like maybe 08 to 10, maybe give or take, we did a whole world tour

for two years around not being on the road for more than two weeks at a time. We were playing Europe for two weeks, then come home, play two weeks, then come home, play, we did an American tour a week at a time. We were playing Europe for two weeks, then come home, play two weeks, then come home, play, you know, we did an American tour a week at a time. Because of the child custody. Yeah. And the other guys in the band were. Because you had to be in court or something? No, because I had 50, 50 custody of my kids and there was no budging on the. Oh, I see. So you came home just to be with them and to take them to school and. Yeah. So literally I would take just to be with them and took them to school.

Yeah, so literally I would take them to school Monday morning and we would fly and we would play five shows in America Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, Sunday, Sunday night, we'd fly home. I would be with my kids from that Monday morning for a week. And the rest of the guys in the band, God bless them, were gracious enough and kind enough to work with that. And it was a whole world two for two years. So we were never, never gone from one to two weeks of the time. The Rock and Roll lifestyle was not really

invented for accommodating custody fights. Let me turn that for you. It's more of a creating illusion. It was running away from your children. It was for creating children. I mean, no, it was running away from your children. It was for creating children. You know what I mean? No, it was running away from your kids. Let Zeppelin fucked up.

Ruby's with a fish. You know, I mean, among other things. Yeah. Well, I'm sure you guys got into lots of Manhattan when you started in. But so what's it like now? So you, I mean, first of all, I must tell you,

I tore like the ultimate baby, and I have for like the last at least 20 years. I do two shows, two cities in a row. You go home or do you stay out of the room? After the second show. So I'm not only staying over one night, that's as much as I can take. I'll go up and fly up to Seattle on Saturday afternoon

and then fly back after the show. No, then stay over and stay over. The first city is always one that has like a great hotel. I'm telling you, I'm a fucking baby. And then I'll fly to the second city, whatever it is, portally. There's nothing you're going to tell me that's any different than we do.

No, but trust me. And then I'll fly and go right to the venue. I wouldn't even get a hotel in the second city. Do that show, getting a plane and fly home. And I'm only, yeah, we do, that is a baby. Yeah, we have a version of that called basing or hopping. Some bands do what they call it, hop we call basing for some reason. People always go free, they know.

It's basing. So we use base cities. So we'll be, let's say, we're playing Scandinavia. So we'll park ourselves in Copenhagen and we'll wake up in Copenhagen and we'll fly up to Oslo and we'll play Oslo and right after the show, we'll be back on the plane, we'll be back in Copenhagen 10 or 11 hours after we left. And so you're in the same hotel room, if you rent a house or an apartment. So you have that continuity going. And if you have a long week.

Yeah, we do like, you know, two weeks, three weeks like that. And so you could play like- That's your home turf. Right, I'm using Copenhagen as an example. But we do it with Paris, if we're playing shows on the East Coast, like we'll do it out in New York. So we'll stay in Manhattan, and everybody will have their kids and their families out

and we'll play Boston, we'll play Buffalo, we'll play DC, we'll play Philly, we'll play Pittsburgh, we'll play Charlotte, or whatever we'll play, all of them out of New York and just go to TitoBoat, two o'clock in the afternoon, we're back at TitoBoat, you know, two in the morning. Frank Sinatra, his last years, he would only stay in one of three places.

He would either be in, because he had a home in Palm Springs, and then one here in Beppelfield. Sure. And then he would play Chicago, and he would stay at a hotel, his favorite hotel in Chicago, or New York. Sure.

And he would do, you had to be able to reach the gig by, I think, helicopter. Yeah. Or something, maybe small plane or something, so he could play St. Louis, but he'd be back in Chicago. Exactly. Exactly. We're in Chicago.

We play St. Louis in the Netherlands. We're fucking old. We earned it. But it's also, but it is, but it is, I mean, that's one half of it. But when I tell people about this, you know, there's the other half of it, which is that it's an investment, it's an investment in your sanity, it's an investment in your health. It's an investment in your health, your sanity, and it's an investment in your longevity,

because people will sit down. People will sit down. Well, that's more expensive because you're adding more plane flights or you're doing this. I go, yeah, it's more expensive, but it's an investment in being able to do it for many more years. You're still being a road warrior. I mean, you're out.

This is a tour. People say to me, sometimes, you know, you're, I'm never on tour and I'm never not on tour. I do a weekend, every other weekend or so. You know, that's about it. That's the end. Do you ever wake up here at home and go to San Francisco and then you come back here? Absolutely. Yeah. So you

called it one night or? Yes. So you just you off that right back. Yes. Absolutely. I also have had some like I was I had to do like Tahoe last weekend and there was a blizzard. And I had to we had to fly into Reno and then drive over a mountain and a blizzard. It was just like the early days of comedy. It actually kind of felt good. But there are, yeah, no, I hear it is saying,

but there are advantages to it, which is we travel a lot at night. We fly at night. And when you're flying at night, you're gonna actually get around quicker because air traffic control is not sitting there, going to go and wait 45 minutes for somebody else to take off. And so traveling at night, you know,

and also when you come off stage, you're off stage at 11 or 12 and you're still fucking wired after playing for two and a half hours. And so if I go back to the hotel in Seattle or whatever, I'm gonna sit in my room in Seattle for four hours and stare at the wall. So I may as well travel and get to the next city

because then I can have a more relaxing day off the next day. So there are additional practice benefits. I'm telling you, I'm so much more of a baby because like just to be away for more than a few days for my home without my food, you know, like the exact food I want and what's on my TV.

I mean, I'm just a creature of comfort and that kind of, not luxury. I'm not a person who needs luxury. She never excuse that, no. No, I don't. It's, we're the same way. I mean, we, But you, to be out there the way you are,

I mean, look at this thing. But, you know, we have our version of that. I mean, we like to, you know, we have the same people, you know, a lot of the people that travel with us have been with us for 20s, 30s. You stay away from home. I just couldn't do it.

I just couldn't do it. You know, I do on the day off. Try to do nothing, go to a museum, go see a movie, try to try. That's something, comedians of course have the same history and lifestyle and there's certainly where many times in my 20s when I was, you know, we would play comedy clubs and you'd be in the city for four or five days. You played the comedy club like Tuesday through Sunday or some shit. So you had to create stuff to do when you're away from home.

And we were masters at it. But there is, but there is also a pretty significant difference between your 20s and your 50s. I'm just saying. Because in your 20s, in your 20s, most of the time you were sleeping off, you know, the 12 hours of shenanigans that would happen after the concert,

you know, on your day off. Now, you go to a museum or you catch up on something or you go to the spa. I mean, I would never say that for years. Like, what did you do on a day off? I went for a massage and a steam. That's not something you did when you were 26, you know what I mean? But I don't think that people like us need to excuse. I mean, I've been vocal about,

we travel with a chef and we make sure that we have best food possible. We have two guys that travel with us who stretch us and who stitch us back together after the concerts and all that kind of, but all those things are an investment in the longevity. What do you think of Mick? I mean, it's more like a fucking sports team now.

Yeah. You know, what do you think of Mick and Keith doing it at 80? I mean, I remember when we were doing Rolling Stone, our old, our old jokes, when they were 50. I remember that. They're no-hit at number one within an arrow. You know, there. No, I...

Listen, I'll tell you this story. I've said it a couple of times before because it so hits right to the center of what you're saying. We were fortunate enough to get asked to play with the stones just about 20 years ago. It was, maybe, it was, oh all three, four, five to take. And so the playing couple of shows in San Francisco and then asked if we would play with them.

At that time, we had played shows of our career with Deep Purple, with ACDC, with a few other bands. All the bands that I had posters on my wall when I was a kid. And so the last one, the last one of those boxes to check was the stone. So we're playing couple shows that were the Giants played AT&T Stadium. And we're not spring chickens at this moment.

We're still in our early 40s, late 30s, early 40s, or whatever, but still. So we're sitting backstage and this is in no way a judgment on the stones. This is really more about us. But so we're sitting backstage and at one point a personal assistant or whatever comes, you know, it says, Mick Jagger's going to walk through here in a couple minutes. He's going over to his private gym in his truck and he's going to warm up before the show. When he walks through here, please don't make eye contact, we're gonna talk to him or just make it's gonna walk through here.

No. And so we're sitting there. Come on. This is about us, not about the stones. So we're sitting there going, what? He has a truck. He has a truck with a portable gym in it.

He goes and warms up for 30, 45 minutes before he goes on stage. Q, ha, ha, oh my God, you know, and we're still like late 30s, early 40s. Now, guess who's got a truck with a gym in it? Guess who's got a peloton bike on the road with us? Guess who's got a chef who walks around and makes us protein drinks and all kinds of other nasty stuff. I mean, we're right there in it, you know. I get your point. I think you're missing the really salient part of the story.

It's not that he was warming up before the show, which is completely understandable whether you're 20, 30 or 80. I know what you're referring to. I, I, I, I, I referring to. I, it's, yeah. I hum on. That is so disappointing. Right. You know, we used to laugh a lot of those things.

And when did he walk through and you did that and didn't look, did you, you must have talked to him at some point. We, we, we were told that, I've told the story, I was a couple of times before, we were told that we could have a picture taken with the Rolling Stones on the way to the, as they were walking to the stage, we were playing there was another support act, I can't remember who it was, but so the two support acts, the two guest

acts were in the tunnel up to the stage and the first band was here and the second band was here and then the stones came and they stopped here and they took a picture. I don't think they fully stopped. They were sort of caught in mid-walk or they slowed down long enough and then they got to us and we got a picture taken with the stones. But that's the extent of your- That was the extent of it. I had dreams.

I thought, let's go. We're going to play with the Rolling Stones, and you know where I'm going to spend my whole time is in keys of Richard's hotel room sitting doing those legendary parties, till the 9 o'clock. 9 o'clock in the morning. I'll be the last one to leave, you know.

It wasn't exactly like that, but listen, I don't disrespect him for that. I've told those stories before. And now we're sort of turning into a version of that, but we are always very careful. I always go and say hello to our support acts. I look them in the eye. I ask them if there's anything they need.

You know what it is? Called common courtesy. It's just not even. We don't even deserve it. No, it's a human thing. If somebody comes out and plays on a metallic stage, I want them to feel at home. Especially, there's something I want to feel at home. There's also something involved here called professional courtesy.

Professional courtesy. Like, if you were like a very new beginning band, it still wouldn't be acceptable, but it would be a little more understandable, but you appear who was probably in that moment was selling more records than they were. It just seems, it's just so disappointing. And I've heard, of course, stories like this before, there's a very big rock star, I'm not gonna say who it is.

I happen to like him personally and my brief encounters with him. But someone I know who I know is not lying, said, she walked up to him. He was having lunch with his wife somewhere and said, Mr. Blowin' Blow. Blowin' blowin' like that? I hate to bother you. And he cut her off and said, and yet you did. And I've never been able to listen

to this person's records. And I do because I can put it out of my mind. I'm not, I'll play fucking our Kelly here right now. I don't let anybody tell me Michael Jackson anybody. It's that the music didn't rape anybody, I always say. So, but I cannot put it out of my mind. You know what I mean? You can't, you can't, I can't unsee that,

which is ironic because he wouldn't look at you. I hear, I hear, listen, I am terrible. The first time we were exposed to that, and again, I'll refrain from saying the name, but we were, this was the mid-late 80s, and we were just figuring it all out, and getting into arenas and stuff like that. And our tour manager has just been on tour

with this other band that were a little more established and we were, but not, they weren't the rolling stones, or I mean, they weren't legends in their own, in their own mind. Right. They were, you know, and he was telling stories about the lead singer when he walked from his dressing room up to the tour manager had to go in front, you know, find this before whatever, and tell whatever crew people or technicians, or whatever awesome people make rock and roll

shows go up and down and all that stuff, you know, whether it's catering or all the people that work at these buildings. God bless every one of them. No eye contact allowed. And we were sitting, we were 25 years old and we were just hysterically laughing, going like, how can anybody look at another human being

and go, no eye contact allowed when you're backstage sharing a fucking what is that about? What is it taken? It's like there are some primitive person in the Amazon. It steals my soul. You know, like they thought cameras. I just don't understand why that is such an imposition to look at a person. I guess because then it invites the other person to talk to you and then

you got to talk to him. You're going to expand the energy to not in the direction. No, look, it is. I will say this, like there are, we probably both have been put in situations where it is taxing like a book signing. Have you ever done a book signing? Okay, so I was happy to do it and like, I'm not going to do it and not be like engaging with every single person who comes up with that book. I'm gonna look in the eye and try to be, you give them 30 seconds of realness.

That can be taxing over an hour. But you signed up for it. So do it. But it's not taxing to walk through Rome. I just don't get it. But okay, so what about being 80 and doing it? I mean, like I'm telling you, we were making jokes about this for 30 years about how old they are. And we thought 60 was pushing it, and we thought, wow, 70, 75. And 80. And 80. And it's not obviously, in context, it's not just them. I mean, listen, Paul McCartney's still out there doing it,

you know, Neil Young, so many other incredible ornament. And a few at eight. It's very, very right. Paul McCartney is a people. Yeah, Paul McCartney's our 80 last year of the class. Yes, he did. I mean, I, all jokes about, you know, P. Townsend writing, I hope I died before I get

old and all those ones that have been thrown out there for 40, 50 years, I think it's inspiring for nothing more than. Me too. Yeah, I'm kidding. You're kidding, I'm sick of being sucked. You, kidding. Because we're in their fucking footsteps. Exactly. Why do they get stuck in awesome? But it just, it gives all the rest of us mortals,

something to, forward to, first of all, but also when the audience, something to, you know, forward to, first of all, but also, you know, when the audience, I think, understands because it's not just, you know, all of Paul McCartney's fans are not the same age as him. No. So it gives the audience a chance, Less or less, that it gives the audience also a chance to understand that music or comedy or anything else that you do.

It doesn't have to be only the same generation that inspires you and moves something in you. Do you know what I mean? So when we're up on stage, a couple of us are 60, you know, and we look out and see all these kids that are experiencing Metallica for the first time because of stranger things. And there's a, it's called it a 45 year gap, or a 50 year gap. That's great, that younger kids can see that older people are also capable of doing something that has value to them, that connects with them.

And I think, we need to run that very badly. Across multi-gen relations, so it's not. Yes. That all Gen Zers sit there and go, the only people that speak to me are Gen Zers, I think it needs a lot of cost. A cost multi-generation, so it's not. Yes. That all Gen Zers sit there and go, the only people that speak to me are Gen Zers and all Gen Xers sit there and go, which is stupid.

Which is so stupid. When I was a Gen Zer, I mean, when I was 20, that's not how I thought. I didn't look up to the people in my own generation. I thought they were douchebags. I wanted to be like Gen Zers Bond and Johnny Carson. I mean they were douchebags. I wanted to be like James Bond and Johnny Carson. You know, I mean, that's a Dean Martin. People who are older than me look like you know,

how to get a girl and order a steak and a martini and do fucking good at double stuff or rock stars. You know, of course, that was always like, but I knew I couldn't ever be that. You know, but I could be Johnny Carson. I got pretty close. That's right, come on. God bless you. All right, listen, it meant so much to me that you would just do this because I know it's

so much fun. It is so much fun. I hope you do it again. Please. Like with or without the cameras. No, the great. It's a great space, isn't it? There's never good time in this room. This is what we call after hours, like an after hours. Exactly. It has that. This is what we call after hours, like an after-hose. Exactly, it has that. Well, come, come, I would love to have you here sometime when you're in LA, and I can clap when I'm taking it.

And then we can put the music on. Clap. Render. Good to see you again. I'm going to take that. Now, yeah, you can. I want to be the tall. Now you can attack.

I want to be the talk.