Club Random with Bill Maher - Sean Penn | Club Random with Bill Maher

Episode Date: January 23, 2023

Bill Maher and Sean Penn randomly riff on which one of the Three Stooges Sean was going to play, their opposing beliefs on personal health, why Sean is attracted to dangerous places, Oliver Stone, Sean’s crush on Diane Sawyer, Sean’s relationship with the paparazzi, Sean’s love of Hugo Chavez, the movies they couldn’t make today, the legend of Jack Nicholson, Bill and Sean’s mutual love of Amy Schumer and a LOT more. 

Club Renew. Did I tell you it's the last year for Hawaii? You did, and I didn't, I just didn't want to either and encourage that or embrace it or not embrace it because you know, it's this room for change. Look at you, Mr. Sensitivity, oh my gosh. Well, I hope that's an endorsement of how much friend we had all the years.

It's so good. Yeah, and you were so amazing. That thing you did this year, that little bit, that, I mean, was, that, yeah. I love the outdoor shell. I hated it. Yeah. That's one reason it's not. I know I don't.

Comedy is not my thing. I could I sensed that. You know, especially once you wrote it, but but it was too for for there was something. You know, you knew that most of the crowd was hip and getting it all and really, but they were looking for what each other was gonna do a little bit. You know what, it's so funny, because the first 10 minutes of my act is about the subject you and I are inevitably going to talk about. Okay, which is health in general and vaccines and COVID

and stuff like that. And in Maui, it went over huge. And in Honolulu, it was much more of your crowd. Yes, yes, I felt that, but they, the MSNBC watching indoctrinated. But you also transcend that. So they are looking at it and they're saying, this is the smart version of the comedy against us.

Right. So they were patiently weighted that part. Exactly. Yeah. And then it went great. And that's what I, that's the issue I have with liberals in general these days, and have for some years, is not just on that issue,

but it's emblematic, emblematic of just that attitude of we will not be challenged on things we don't already believe. Now, of course, the right does this absolutely also. And so we'll just wait it out. There's no more open mind. Nobody has an hour. Yes, we just talk. Yes. We has an hour. Nobody has an hour. We just talk. Yes. But we are in it.

And we're done. I saw the scissors. I wondered if you were a moil. No, these are for guests who fuck up. What do you say? No, yes, I love that you asked that. Everybody asked that, not everybody, but even seasoned pros who don't realize

there's cameras all around it. I want it to be like we're, you know, nobody else in the room just us doing what we, you've been in this room many times. You gave me an amazing birthday tribute here when I was 60. That's a lot, a lot. I can't believe.

You know, I was just thinking you, I would say it was time I read about the new James Bond. I was thinking you could have been James Bond. I think it takes a different architecture of the face to be James Bond. Not when you were 40. Not now, but James Bond now. No. I wouldn't have looked like the James Bond I wanted to see. You got a bit more comedy now.

Well, you know the funny thing about his, like, as a serious note about that, I have never been resistant to comedy. No, you started out as the guy, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the It was a different approach than the one they ultimately took. It was a different cast. And I thought, well, and you were Larry? Yeah. And Jim Carrey was going to do Mo at the time. And those guys have stumbled on some fantastic comedy

at times. And it's outrageous at times. And so I thought that would be. Well, I remember about it. We was thinking, you know, like, because even before I knew you, I wasn't an admirer and of your acting skills, and like, to pick Larry. Well, that's not... I didn't get to pick. But even to take a hug, Larry.

Yeah. Because he was the one student that had no, you know, a Larry episode was, you know, it was also a hairdo that was going to make me more unpopular than already I sometimes am during the period of shooting. Curly mo. Yes. I see those as rich, syrupy parts. Yeah, but Larry.

I think they were smart. I think they were, if I was going to do it, I think it was Larry. Yeah. Anyway. Anyway, let's go right to this thing on vaccination. Let's do it. So here's what I, because you know, we've had conversations about it and I've heard you in conversation with others and then of course publicly, let's agree that neither of us

are scientists or doctors. Correct. Okay. So, one is each of us are as we grow through life, the kind of risk with. So you say, okay, I trust this attitude more than I do this one. And my feeling about vaccination was always that, knowing that there's a statistical possibility on either side, more than a little one on either

side, that this could do more harm than good to a human body. We knew that while there was 20 years of development of the mRNA technology, and I shouldn't even say those letters, because if you ask me to put on the board the way the cell structures and the spike proteins work I might have had retention for two seconds of that you know two years. We're not scientists. Right. So what happens is that you have what I observed was that the scientists who I was going to commit to because I felt it was a decisive time. And I still feel that it was a decisive time.

And I still feel that it was a decisive time at best. I believe them in ways that those who were considered on the fringes, I didn't believe not because they were on the fringes, not because they were being silenced or not given enough voice, but as I explored them, I as an actor who have a level of trained observation, I like to believe. I saw people who were identity seeking in terms of their dissident position on it. Then you weren't reading the right paper, but I was reading a lot of people. And the key here, we talked about this a lot of people and and and and we will and the key here And we talked about this just going to overwhelm you for a second the key here we had talked about this

Is that we have a depend into independence and interdependence Reality as a country and as a as a human kind So every time this conversation has had, one forgets one significant element of it. Whether that one significant element was, what are our hospital resources, and no matter what it does or doesn't do to our body, does it make us safer to the people who are going to be more significantly affected. I mean, I wouldn't argue with almost any of these points. You just leave out the other half, you know, a lot. The people on the fringes, their lesson less on the fringe, and what was on the fringe at

the time, sometimes it's not the fringe anymore. Where was the fringe on masks? You know, first it was a dumb father, which I understood because masks are for surgeons, and they, you know, generally the virus is like many, many times smaller than the smallest hole in the mask. And at first they said, just wear anything, just put an old bandana on your face. Okay. So, you know, and then the vaccine will prevent you getting it, but it doesn't and prevent you giving it and it doesn't. I mean, these are significant.

I understand that. But I would say, there's another half to that, which is that the N95 mask was in such short supply, in such need in the hospitals that the original public health message was let's protect our frontliners and let's get these in the 90s to that. There's even a study now that doubts the N95. But, but, and that's better than the other one.

Or, you know, but again, there's a whole other school of thought about fighting things with your natural immune system, not all of them, but it should be my choice whether I fight it in your manner or the way I... It's a medical decision. I find it incredibly arrogant to put this kind of coercion on people about what goes on in their own bodies, especially since all of our bodies are different or independent. If I went to a doctor tomorrow and he didn't ask to know my history and like study it before he advised me to do anything, I would think that doctor is an idiot. And by the way, there are many doctors who are idiots.

And ones who you call the fringe who are actually more mainstream now, and always were mainstream, but they were cowed into silence. So it didn't seem like there was a lot. But actually 16,000 doctors and scientists signed something called the Barrington letter. Have you heard about that? Yeah. Okay. Well, they all dissented with the basic ways we were handling this. 16,000 not enough for me. And when I would go back to... It's significant. And that's just who signed. But then you have another philosophical question.

Where a lot of this stuff is going to prove itself in one direction or another over a lot of time. I'm always willing to be wrong on any issue. But there are moments where I believe, and I think we've all faced these moments, whether as individuals or as a society, whether it has to be an immediate reaction. When we talk about public health, and we talk about leadership and public health, if we get hit by the equivalent of Ebola, which melts our vital organs, then I'll fight you for the vaccine.

My point is we didn't know all of what this was, but it was a test of two things. It was a test of how fast could science move in making adjustments in the technology that would make us safer. And that's an argument we can have. And how about at first, I remember when it was 5,000 dead Americans and one thought, oh my God. But we got to well over a million. And that's with something that you and I both know.

But it also affected elderly people, people with obesity, people with other issues diabetes. Those are big two. Right. We didn't know if that might, that strain may ultimately become something much more virulent. And so at some point, the other issues usually don't, although they usually become less virulent. They usually become less virulent. That's right. But we again, we, can you say you knew I didn't know. Okay. I guess these are all, you know, none of these choices are 99 to one.

They're all like 60, 40 choices. But we come down differently on these matters of medical autonomy and also how bad this pathogen was. Free speech, I mean, it's so funny to find. If I may set myself up for a fall, because I think that you have an intellect that operates in most ways on a higher level than mine. However, and therefore, and therefore wait. No, but let me just say, because humor, I think, is the only genius communication. And it's really more than anything, the only thing that's going to get us

to talk to each other again is a country, is a culture, it's the thing that we all look to for our sanity. When I saw you in Hawaii doing the biobaxing skepticism section of your show, well, I was very open to the humor of it. But having said that, I would say that I can skip this because you talk about the independence of your body. I know my body. I'm a joke of it, Chen. I know my body so well. Or I'm layered hell. I know my body so

well. I believe in herd immunity. I and so on and so on. Believe in herd immunity. I thought it would. I think it just is a thing. I don't think you can believe in it. But oh, there are, yeah, no, there are natural immunity. No, but there are angles with which herd immunity attacks on public health approaches to that. Yes, it's a complicated one, but it's a real thing.

You can't believe in it or not. It just is. As is natural immunity. So one knows their own body. What if well knows their own driving skills and therefore says, I should be allowed to drive 125 miles an hour through a small town in my lightsauk.

It's a terrible analogy, except for those who died in COVID-19. Oh, oh, oh, oh, for a fuck's sake. That's a complicated, a malgum of reasons why people died. They didn't really make a big distinction between died with COVID or died from COVID. I understand that.

If you have a, I'm sorry, but in my worldview, which is a lot of people's worldviews, and it's not just 16,000, it's not a fringe, believe in much more terrain theory, which means it's about, it's not about the pathogen so much, of course, there are those that are virulent to everyone. It's about the terrain that the pathogen is invading. And if that terrain is not healthy, yes, you will die.

We're hearing a lot about long COVID. I'm not a doctor, you're right. And by the way, just because you're a doctor, it doesn't mean you can't be a fucking idiot. That's correct. Okay. So that's why they say get a second opinion. But, yeah, fuck no, I forgot what we were. That's okay, I think that's good.

No, no, no. No, you're talking about what I wanted to say, this will get you back on track. Define friends. Five percent. You know, five to 10% is fringe. I would say, you know, I don't know if this is true now, maybe it's more, but like, I would say woke people were,

I still think they're actually a fringe. I mean, like most of the people, like 80% of the tweets are from like, most of the people, like 80% of the tweets are from like 10% of the people who tweet, you know. That's a fringe, but the fringe is going to be very powerful. But fringe has a kind of demeaning connotation, which is why I don't like it when you use it, because it doesn't accurately describe, let me tell you what I mean by fringe that. Okay. Fringe can be an absence of consciousness of interdependence. Fringe can be those who are misinformed or those who for reasons beyond their control.

I think for example, it is a fringe that does not have a world perspective in terms of having traveled, sometimes served for social economic reasons, others for a lack of curiosity. So you only have about 28% of Americans who have a fucking passport. Where does that do? Well, you've traveled the world. Does it not give you a different view, a larger view of the seconds? I'm so glad you brought that up because a lot of the people who were saying that we shouldn't allow other points of view on Twitter and so forth, were against points of view that were used

in European countries. Like, Sweden did better. They're saying that any other European country, even Norway, and they followed less stringent guidelines than we did by far. They kept the schools open, they weren't masking children. They didn't buy the-

They buy the- They usually buy- They literally isolated the elderly. Yes, exactly, which is what you should do. And it ended up in calamity. Now, this is, and Sweden, it did not. It just came out. It did, should I get my phone out and Google it? No.

No. I'm sure you. But here's, but it's a good example of look. Again, going circling back to the beginning is that because I have so much respect for you that every time I hear you talk about it, I do question my own position. Good. And that's why we're here. And that's what I think we do need more of is that, you know, and we thought, you know, I pursue, I have great friends who are militantly on the other side of the political spectrum.

And I've been able to keep those friendships and in fact nurture them to kind of higher level during this chaotic time, let's say the Trump time, let's say since 2016, where I just made a decision that, you know, if I'm, if that 1% chance that I'm wrong is the reality, I want to keep challenging it. Well, I hate to break it, and I love you too, and I have a tremendous respect for your intellect and everything, but there's a much greater chance of 1% that you're wrong. You know, you seem to think that because it seems, and I'm not even going to admit that it is the truth, but it seems that a majority of voices are with your side.

No one thought Hillary Clinton could win because the whole said it was like 80% chance. Well, it's still 20% chance that it wasn't going to be Trump. It wasn't going to be Hillary. And that's what happened. And I think it's even more with medical. So you know, you use the term misinformation. Who's misinformation?

The misinformation that I got from the United States government. I seem to remember six months when we were just all Leaving our packages outside and rubbing it like it was a, you know a fucking stool sample or something The natural immunity you talk about other countries other countries have much more faith in natural immunity Which this country did up until this disease? more faith in natural immunity, which this country did up until this disease. Why are these opinions, which are shared by many millions of people, both laymen, who by the way, a smart layman, can know more than someone who, yes, did go to school. You can go to, she could have graduated medical school in 1972 and not learned a thing since.

There's no law that you have to keep up. And could have learned a lot of wrong-minded things along the way. And I think we were told a lot of wrong-minded, but it goes to a bigger question. Because I'm looking at this guy over your shoulder. In terms of leadership, in terms of governance, in terms of media communication, what do we do next time where there is a threat? First of all, and we've got to get on the same team about something that nobody can know. First of all, have the guts to tell the American people there's something bad going around. Here's what you can do. Here's how you can protect yourself. Don't

stay home day drinking and overeating. That's going to have the reverse effect. The first thing I said in March of 2020, our last show on the air, I said, you just picked two things that I did. I said, sugar, stress, sleep. Stop eating, sugar, stress, don't stress about it more than we have to get sleep. And of course, people got unhealthy. So when you say a million Americans, yes, of course, but it's always, it's such a blinkered way of looking at health because there are so many factors

that go into whether you're healthier or not or whether you are going to get fed by that disease. Well, some millions of people never even knew they had it. Everyone is had it by now. It's a virus, it's everywhere. You're soaking in it. We're breathing it right now. Okay, so...

Well, no, I forgot. That's what you think, but what I can say is, for whatever reason I never had it. No, that was one of my points. I never had it. And I was working in the space. And you know what, you were so exposed to it. And I was, you know, working in the space. And you know, what you were so exposed to it, you didn't have it because you've spent your life swimming

through sewage and Bolivie or something to free a poet or some shit. You know, I mean, I always say, John Penn of all the celebrities, this guy walks, you know this, but you this is you. This guy walks the walk. There's so much talk and every the brain, so brave. And you're the one guy here. But here's what we agree on in terms of this public health thing. I think we're completing in sync when you and I asked you about what does leadership look like in, you know, when the next pandemic comes or, and I know you would like to say

that wasn't a pandemic, but when the pandemic, when the pandemic comes, you know, when the next pandemic comes or, and I know you would like to say that it wasn't a pandemic, but when the pandemic comes, which scientists at large are telling us it will, having gone through this exercise, yes, I wish that leadership had coalesced an opinion that we're, which was, we don't know to begin with, we don't know. Our best understanding of it as scientists today is this. Our demand on, you know, when it came to things like mandate, mandating, whether it was masking or distancing or testing or vaccination. That can be an endless conversation just about COVID, but as a future conversation about how we are gonna be a team, we've studied the other team's movements. Other team being the virus.

Okay. When a virus approaches, how do we function as a team? And I would just argue that whatever is the consensus science of the time, which could be wrong, we give it 10 weeks. And we find ways, in some cases cases that will require subsidies for people, not endless unemployment benefits and all of this kind of crazy and it will say, okay, what we know is we know how to test for this, but we don't have enough fucking Q-tips to put up people's noses so you have defense production. And you have leadership and you give,

we should know for the American people of the world, what is our, what is our, will be our joint defense when we get to the next item? Okay, well, it's not a fucking Q-tip up by nose. I've had enough Q-tips up by nose and I'm sorry, I don't want anymore. Yes, I want my freedom in my nose. And it's unnecessary.

You think it's still necessary? I got tested this week, so I could do real time on Friday. I think, I'm positive, that one of the midline things that we could consider is that there should be very affordable home tests that, you know, midline things that we could consider is that there should be very affordable home tests for several things. No, I don't wanna do that either.

I've had to do that for probably. I said available. You can't. I didn't say I'm shoving it in your mailbox and up you know. Okay, thank you, but, you know, a lot of things turn into mandatory, quickly. But when people have the opportunity, for example,

have you ever done this ancestry thing this to 23rd-year-old, it would be 23 and me thing or whatever? Yes, I'm a zoole warrior. I knew that. So I think that if it's available and easy, people's curiosity will win the day. I think more people will say,

I feel like I have a flu. I mean, I've got the test here. I'm gonna do it. Okay, if you feel sick, sure, that's different. That's not what they're doing. It's like, if you want to go to a party, you have to, it's like for fuck's sake, we're past this, trust your immune system. You're going to have to, at some point in life,

develop your immune system. Keep, and if you to at some point in life develop your immune system. Keith, and if you can't, yes, you should be protected. Yeah, but understand, I agree with you. I mean, I felt very early on that the horse got out of the gate before the buzzer. And there were those of us that said, okay, we're going to invest in this sense of how to attack it. But it was very clear, just like, for example, in a conflict zone, in Baghdad 2003, and I had been there in 2002 and 2003. Who saw it? That question.

Hours. Yes. But in that situation, you saw very early after the Shack-An-Au campaign, of course, people like would be here, are hiding in whatever they can call a bomb shelter. I've just seen it. The same thing in Ukraine, originally. That's what happens. We get as human beings. We want to protect our children, protect them. This is at a certain

point, this is part of our life and you've got to learn how to dance with it. And the shops begin to open in war zones, in active war zones. We have still not had in leadership or in media communication, a sensitization to this, so that we recognize, can we, I said 10 weeks, let's call it three, if consensus science, which is not perfect, gives us a red light warning. We should say, okay, we'll do this for this long, but there's a mental health issue that comes on after that. We've been doing consensus science. And, you know, it's funny because the country now has revolted again some of this stuff,

almost like they did during pro-abition. When they said, we just don't believe in these policies. There are policies with masking and stuff. And, you know, of course, you know, we still make the help wear the mask. Because the germs know who the celebrities are, wherever you go. Are you hiring? What type of role are you hiring for? You might have a simple position to fill,

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Zippracootr, the smartest way to hire. I just, just because you mentioned Iraq and Ukraine, and I know, you know, if it was one of those old movies where they have the stamps on the luggage, yours would have like so many stamps on it Like what is it when like I mean you're like You know You seem to be attracted to the fire

What maybe I think there was a the there was a very famous French Vulcanologist Vulcanologist volcano study in the study of the pain course named Maurice Kraft famous French volcanologist, volcanologist. Volcanoes, study in the study of the cave. Oh, sure, of course. New Maurice Kraft. And I saw a documentary on he and his wife, he said they were a team.

And he struggled a lot with his feelings about mankind, about human beings. And he felt that the more time he spent with volcanoes, the more he loved humankind. Oh. Now, I've tried to deep dive my, from, from ego to a gentle adrenaline junkie to, you know, I've heard all the criticisms that are, you know, I'm grandstanding, that, you know, you've got to consider it all. Right.

And I think the one that hit me the most was that, was that there was something in Ukraine in particular, where everything that we were wired to believe was exceptional about America. I realized I'd never smelled it in the air. And then I got to Ukraine and I smelled exactly that dream. And with a resilience that's extraordinary. And by the way, if you're being just pragmatic and recognizing the obstacles, one unopsicle is racism. And with Ukraine, you have a Trojan horse who can get through and show that what we share is dreaming because we will fight harder as a country for white faces.

There's no question about that. I've worked in Haiti for 12, 13 years. That country has suffered from its color. And people of heart have given a lot to it. But none, never has that... We've given off a lot of blood and treasure to save the people of Vietnam from how she men. We'll see, but this is when they'd like that, that war

is still to me, our memory as a child of the stupidity of adults. Yeah. And, you know, whether it's John F. Kennedy, our hero, or Lyndon Johnson, or Richard Nixon, they were all telling us the communism was gonna spread throughout if we let this out. And it was not the case.

And it was also not the case that it could be wanted. Okay, communism was intent on spreading. You can't, you know, no, no, I wasn't saying that. I'm saying that you would agree with that. You would agree with that. It was not going to be the, the, we weren't gonna say the deciding factor. Well, we don't know because we don't, we can't go back in time and rewrite history.

Well, we know because we lost. I know, but, but that was, but we lost over like 15 years. That's right. But if America had not been in Vietnam in the early 60s or if Kennedy hadn't got shot and say he pulled the, the troops. And we had no troops there. And Lyndon Johnson's attitude was, well, I'm from Texas. What am I going to fund my fighting for? Yellow man in Asia for?

I could see that scenario playing out. Or if there was a different president who thought that way at the time. We might not have gone into Vietnam. And all of Indochina probably would have gone communist. I mean, Cambodia did, Laos did, I think, for a time. It could really, they would have stopped at Burma, really. And then, not India. Yeah, there was a legitimate fear. I'm not saying the Vietnam war was where we should have been. But there was a legitimate fear that Stalin and Mao... There's also a legitimate lesson, a legitimate lesson, and this is not giving moral equivalency

to the struggle of the Vietnamese on either side, but there's a lesson in it. But there's a lesson in it. How in the world could we lose that war? How in the world could Russia lose the war in Afghanistan? Right. Followed by us losing the war in Afghanistan. Right. So now we have a democratic dreaming, a Western European dreaming country, right occupying all of our values and And and

Understand and I think the thing that needs to be understood most about Ukraine because I think it will be the most motivating thing to let it there are only two thing to let it. There are only two ways that Ukraine ends up. One is victory on its own terms, with or without support, and a lot more dead, and a lot more tragedy. And with United States going, we gave them one Patriot system. When I was there on one of the trips, when we were going to the east to the front line, before we went all the way to the front line, we first went to a high-marrying charging station. And it was world news that the United States had given them a high-mar system.

Now, a high-mar system, unlike the Patriot system, I came to learn, is very quick to train on, and they were extremely effective with them. And this was world news. Heimarr is coming in from the US. The biggest border in Europe we gave them for. But we've given them a lot. We're going to give them more.

The question is the experience. Okay. You can't say we've been them a lot. We're going to give them more. The question is, we can't say we've been exactly holding back. No, the US standards were doing pretty good with them. I mean, there's only a... Well, I mean, America can't do anything quickly, but I'm guessing just because you say, oh, we're going to give you that. It doesn't have... They have to put them on trucks or I don't know what the fuck they have to do. But I know that I don't feel like we're abandoning Ukraine and we

shouldn't abandon Ukraine. Do you think that this Congress will abandon you now that we're in a new day? I think they will try because it's anything the Democrats want, they will be against. So, you know, Fox News is already kind of pro-Russia, kind of a lot pro-Russia. So I think that's been going on for, I mean, there's a lot of, and this is not just coming out of me, but out of reading, you know, for 30 years, we have been, we have been wanting to comfort ourselves

that the Russian threat is over for a long time. No, Mitt Romney was, Mitt Romney was dead on. Dead on, and everybody made fun of him when he said the biggest threat is Russia. But what do you think of your boyfriend Oliver Stone like being so down with Putin and Russia? Where does that come from? From an old lefty went to Vietnam.

Fought to be in them. You know what I would say about Oliver Stone and just to make it a bigger picture, the parts of Oliver Stone that I think should be embraced. Oliver Stone is an iconic class by nature. One looks into his background, and there's a kind of won't be fooled again. Right. Anger it in there. Yes.

He owns that. He did put out a public statement separating himself from Putin after the invasion of Ukraine. His fascination with Putin, I think, was to challenge America's sense of exceptionalism. I think that he's, he, he needs to be so excited to do that. Well, you know, I don't know if it's just silly. I think his provocatorialism will ultimately have a leg, a productive legacy. We used to have a contest when we first started politically incorrect, called politically incorrect or just stupid, because people would do things that would just stupid.

And there's a line, you know, I could see how the untrained mind could not get where that line was, but that was the point of the end. Some things are politically incorrect because they're true, but I'm saying them out loud. And some things are just fucking stupid. Yes, I can get a rise at him, you by saying, I think we should legalize cannibalism. It's just stupid.

And backing Putin is just stupid. It's not provocatorial. It's just not the reality. I challenged the phrase backing Putin. I think what he is. He is licking his ass in documentaries, and I like Alibis. I think he's a genius filmmaker. One of my favorites, the one you did with him, all of them.

All of them. Here's what the other side of that is, because I would challenge the idea that Alibis is stupid. I would say stupid. I said, this is stupid. He's not stupid. I would say stupid. I said this is stupid. He's not stupid. But I think that he finds himself quite authentically as a vessel of skepticism, specific to his own patriotism, that he is an American and he, an individualist. And I don't think that all of her stone feels, and I'm not going to argue on his behalf or against him, that he, that he, here's what he's not.

He's not a people pleaser. Great. Who's he going to back next, Hitler? Hey, I'm provocatoring. Hitler, great orator. He was. Well, I mean, you know, the Trump Hitler analogy, of course, like anything is an eye roll for many reasons why he doesn't deserve to be compared to Hitler.

No, he's not a mass murderer. He doesn't even hate the Jews. But who are we talking about now? Hitler Trump. Oh. But he's self-absorbed. But where the Hitler analogy completely works for me is Hitler in the conference room

where there are blueish things on the map of, you know, and the generals are telling him like rational things and he is saying, no, I don't care that we need to retreat. All the German soldiers will stay on the line into the last minute. The last news right now. And that's where, yes, that's where Putin is now. It's where it's the kind of,

it's same mentality of Trump, the people around him are like, this guy's nuts, I can't work with him. Well, in one case with Hitler, he was evidently shooting that then fed me in the whole time, and with Trump, he was shooting McDonald's the whole time. But you know, that's a joke, but it's not a joke. You know, this goes back to a conversation you had with your previous guest.

We are all learning exponentially now in our lifetime about mental health. We're all learning exponentially now in our lifetime about mental health. We're all thinking about it. And it was not a great big topic of conversation in the 30s and 40s. We're always swept under the rug. Look at the Kennedy kids. So you would look at the nuances of a character and it would create charisma because it was different. You wouldn't recognize it as sickness.

Now we're in a time where some of us believe that we very early on recognize a sickness and dental Trump. I never didn't see him as a guy four blocks off the Vegas strip selling cars or a failed magician with this blondie hair and his tan. Right. And so you will, again, or failed magician with this blondie hair and his tan. And so you will, again, it goes back

to the responsibility of us, which goes back to the public health issue, not past, not COVID, but future, and how are we going to, how do we prepare trust? How do we demand of leaders, an authenticity that says I don't know sometimes. Well, that bus has sailed, pal. I don't know what world you're living in, but that's gone. The people, the what they know about what they would have to know to make those

kind of decisions, that's gone with the win. So, you know, again, however, it goes back to consensus science. Consensus science, Lord. If you take it off of COVID-19 and you put it on to climate change. Science lives on the lifeblood as descent. Science means, I say this and then you get to challenge it. This idea that we don't get to challenge it because there's a consensus about something completely new, using it completely new on people vaccine.

I understand they've been working on it for a while. Yes, I'm not good. I look, I went to your fucking parking lot and got it. Yeah, okay. I'm very proud of that. And I think we had dinner that night. I think we did. So, look.

Yes. And trust me, I don't like to argue with my friends, but I think I was like, why can't you? I don't know. Because I'm not unreasonable about it. It's not like I'm an anti-bite. But this is what's important. I'm not. And forgive me if I advertise you.

Here's what's important about you. You have always, you've shown respect to people you've interviewed on your shows. People who I don't wanna be in the same room with, they seem so venal to me. And yet you are no small part of my pursuits that I mentioned earlier of nurturing certain relationships and finding the common ground and

saying where do we go from here? In fact, I'm considering myself and I don't like me mentioned says name now But someone who was in the Trump administration who's who was a friend of mine Before he was in the administration and during who was a friend of mine before he was in the administration and during, who I would send texts, please resign now, resign, California misses you. And he said, trust me, your people want me here. And I understand his position. There's a guy who's very different in any case.

He's diligent in his religion and he's served a very high office in the administration. He and I are talking about putting a podcast together. Oh. Simply because what I would do is I would get someone I considered my political pundit, somebody who I feel has the skill set to argue with him on the facts. Be on mind. He would get someone as a cultural person, a non-political person who is on, for the most part, his side in the tracks tracks and that that could create a

conversation we need because if we don't talk to each other we're talking. And Sonny you mentioned that because Club Random is thinking about forming a network and having an umbrella of other podcasts that we endorse and maybe you'd like to be part of the Club Random family. We'll talk offline. Can we let me get you to sign here? like to be part of the club random family. We'll talk offline. Come here. Let me get you to sign here. And here I had a waiver up there.

He came to me and I, I don't know. But my public doesn't know. You hear it. You. Oh, your public just gave up years ago. Oh, yeah. You know, she went out of window like a fool.

She's actually, no, she's actually, she's, if I think about what would have been without her, it's a bad story. I have to tell you. Knowing it was long as I do, I have seen you, you became such a man. Nothing you weren't always. I mean, you were always Superman, flying off to save the world, and sometimes for real, with real people, like could cite chapter in verse. But, you know, there was also this kind of like side of you that reminded me of what Jimmy Van Hussin said about Frank Sinatra.

He said, he's one of the most interesting people you'll ever meet, but don't stick your hand in the cage. Well, there are a lot of women that'll tell you the same. And that's how I thought of you. And like, in the last 10 years women that will tell you the same. And that's how I thought of you. And like in the last 10 years, that's just not you. You're just a cuddly teddy bear. You know, I like something.

And this is, you know, what we're talking about, the fucking diabolical pandemic or the wars of this place and the horror that's happening. Our, we got to be 90, 10. We got to be, I think we can talk in Chugum at the same time. I don't believe in this idea of joy without pain or pain without joy, but at the end of the day, we have an obligation to keep happiness available to people. I think a human obligation, a parental obligation, And that will create its own hope. And for me, at 62 years old, I wake up in the morning

and I am determined, you know, live the fuck out of this life. Good for you. And I'm gonna be kinder than I was yesterday. I'm gonna hear my kids better than I did yesterday. And you know, you'll have, you know, there's no perfection to this science either. Right. But there was a turning point for him.

I mean, it's, it's, it's, yeah. And it also shows that people are not done living at 50. You know, this country is so agious. And because most people, because of ill health, let's not get on back on that, but you know, when you say a million died of COVID, again, health is very complicated. There's so many factors that go into it. So many things are going on in your body, genetics, and what you eat, and how many metals are in your body. I could name a thousand things, industrial pollution, pollution, what you did in your 20, you know, all these things,

how many antibiotics you've had, all these things go into it. So, you know, anybody says, this caused a million deaths. That was a factor. It's like when people said, here's an analogy, you'll appreciate for this. Let me just finish this. When people said Reagan won the Cold War. Reagan didn't win the Cold War any more than COVID killed a million people. And he played it's part. It played its part. But it was a coalition, a Kennedy won the call. Going into Vietnam, I know it was a horrible war, I agree. But it did stop the Communists and their tracks.

Okay, so lots of people won the Cold War. Reagan came in and he played his part in the final episode. You know, I'm gonna raise the defense budget. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, these people are too poor to keep up with this. He was right about that. And he was right that it wasn't evil empire.

Nothing more evil than communism. You know, the two points that come to my mind that I'm routine, You're gonna finish it. Go ahead and finish. But that's my analogy to COVID. It's like, yeah, COVID did play a significant part, but it's more complicated than that. Yes, and the two things I'll mention are Diane Sawyer.

In fact, I forgot the second one, so I go to Diane Sawyer. Many years ago, you know, we all love Diane Sawyer, in fact, I forgot the second one. So a good Diane Sawyer. Many years ago, you know, we all love Diane Sawyer. Sure. We don't go. I mean, you know, I still have a crush. Really? Diane Sawyer?

Oh, come on. Stop, don't lie. Absolutely, don't lie. Don't lie, wait. Oh, stop. But here this up, she was doing a side job. Like, I don't know, she was working for two networks or whatever she was doing.

She had one thing where she was doing just human interests stuff. She was a dominatric. I wish I knew the truth behind that. So she wanted to meet because she wanted to sell me the idea of putting a hidden, this is when I was at the epicenter of the beginning of the paparazzi phenomenon in this. Oh, way back. Yeah.

And I was getting problems and arrested into the building. The epicenter. I love the way you dress up punching photographers. Well, no, but I mean, because of the person I was married to at the time. I know. You were a bunching photographers. Come on. Well, no, but I mean, because of the person I was married to at the time. I know.

You were a bunch of photographers. Come on. And so she, we met New York in a hotel. And I'm a hotel bar in that room, not on the Weinstein type. Was she married? Isn't she married? She's my, my, my, my, Nichols. My Nichols.

Hey. No, I wasn't going to win. No, I didn't try. I mean, just out of, I could have won, but I would just had a respect to his body of what I didn't going to win. No, I didn't try. I mean, just out of I could have won, but I wouldn't just out of respect to his body of what I didn't fuck is why but I did accept the meeting just for the graduate because what she wanted to do is get asked me to put a hidden camera on in one of those kinds of situations where you're coming out of a restaurant and the pop rods here your hound. You get a kind of, and she wanted me to, you know,

participate in this story that. Wow. And I was interested in my head of being an actor. I didn't, I didn't see it coming. I overreacted to certain things. I should have avoided other things. There were all those things that I take. Well, young, dumb and full of comp.

We all were. Correct. You're not topologed. Correct. And it wasn't anybody're not topologized. Correct. And it wasn't anybody I hit that I regret. Exactly. But I regret hitting. There you go.

You can do both. Exactly. So, and regrets are good. So we sat there very quickly. I had told her, you know, just his fair play, you know, I don't want to do this. But that was early in the conversation. And we continued the conversation. And she said something that I never forgot because we were right at the moment that the wall had come down and I had spent time in West Berlin

That's the one-win wall for the kids. Yeah, I had spent time in both the West and the East going through checkpoint Charlie at the early 80s. Of course you did. Of course I did. And this kind of ominous thing that happened when you cross through Checkpoint Charlie from this alive culture of West Berlin into the East where it was so depressed, so austere. And she said, you know, it wasn't primarily peristrate gun. It wasn't Gorbachev. It wasn't primarily peristrate gun. It wasn't Gorbachev. It wasn't Reagan. It wasn't solidarity and Poland. It was black market Beatles records.

Levi's 501. Sure. It was the human connection to dreaming and having and... And freedom. I mean, there was nothing... I'm sure you've seen that awesome German movie, The Lives of Others. No. Oh, you owe me a blowjob.

I just did you such a mitzvah, really. Again? Because you're going to love this movie as a director. I mean, it's so perfect. Well, my assistant's watching in the other room. No, no, no, no. I'm actually saying that the lives of others... The lives of the...

The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the...

The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the...

The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... The lives of the... or erachonicur and the stasi, and we're literally every third citizen is spying on the other two. It's just no way, psychologically, it's almost worse to starve or we have some physical pain. What they put these people through, this is one reason why the Russians are so fucked up. The old joke, which is just the beginning of the problem,

they pretend to pay us and we pretend to work. When your whole society is based on something that is not real, and it reminds me of some things the woke do today where they just declare that it's a new day and there's a revolution and things are completely different now. That's what communism was. People are not selfish anymore. People are always selfish.

And the reason why capitalism is its superior system with all its flaws is because it takes advantage of human nature as it is, not as we wish it were to be. I guess what I'm saying is why you put boyfriends with Castro and Caesar's Chavez in every fucking asshole with a beard. By that, by that, by that. By that, by that, by that, by that, by that,

by that, you mean Hugo Chavez? Not at sea, they're Chavez. Here's Hugo Chavez. Okay, did I say Chavez? I have, I have Hugo Chavez. Yes. So what, listen, he knew before he died, not significantly because I didn't,

I don't claim a significant position. What was I right? Hugo Chavez. He knew very clearly when he put up the referendum to be able to be presidential life and all this kind of stuff. I immediately attacked that. I knew he'd gone off, but what he was originally, and this is not about him, but about the Venezuelans.

What he started with in leadership, I think we actually talked about this on one of your other shows but about the Venezuelans. What he started with in leadership, and I think we actually talked about this on one of your other shows, at one point, is you literally 80% of the country had no national identity at all, no access to health care, no access to education, not bad education, education. Not bad education. And so a person call him Hugo Chavez with a movement and a prison time for a coup attempt where he was nearly killed. This is not just some, I hate America, I'm going to control my country like with an iron thumb guy. This is a guy who was himself a dreamer. And he gave people an identity. I was there and not with a minder.

But what he didn't give them was food. Okay. But he didn't give them. I ultimately, ultimately, you're going, you're going, the food crisis happened later under Maduro. What, what, what Maduro can be accused of being a dictator can be accused of being a bad manager He's certainly a live inflation rate under your boyfriend Chavez was something like 27,000 percent Lee this this the mainly this say I will tell you very clearly that Hugo Chavez Was my friend

However Your boyfriend Hugo Chavez was my friend. However, your boyfriend Hugo Chavez is not an applicable term. He was my friend and he was in a position, fortunately, neither of us have to be in, that he found himself in, that he pursued any head of state as a bad job to me. You got to decide if I'm going to give you as troops on the ground and sacrifice them or use a drone that may be chosen as a base. You're a friend, ran a country that had enormous oil revenues

that somehow never got to the people because socialism is the economic program where the money does get to the people, except of course what it doesn't, but that isn't exactly what happened. Well, what exactly happened to the oil running? Well, here's one thing. I can give you cash.

Thank you. Here's from Moa, right? Take it. Or I can make you cost a dollar and a half for you to fill your tank. The traffic in Korea, I'm not celebrating this is a good policy. But he was giving away oil to the people.

They owned it just like he did. That's a timing catching oil. They all have to fucking sell people. No, you had, they were working with the Iranians for infrastructure, all kinds of things we can take pause on. You can't really be defending him from being corrupt with the oil money. I mean, really?

Because, and by the way, he's hardly alone in the world. There are many dictatorial countries where the top guy, there's a number, Gabon, I think, is one in Africa, Equatorial Guinea, where you find it. Of course, they always have a son who's like 28 and he's on Instagram, like doing crazy things with money that they got from stealing the oil revenue from the people

Here's I can't I'm not going to speak to A forer against him on on his personal corruption in terms of that Certainly, we know that's the case with Putin But what I can speak for is that that and my my job there in Venezuela was not as an advocate for shavans. It was to create the thing that you celebrate with disgecepticism about the way in which the US demonizes. When I mean your job there, my job as an American citizen, I felt it was my job to get across this reality, which was that here, if you have, and South America is streamed with the socialist leaderships that have been intervened upon by American policy and

by American intelligence agencies in such an aggressive way, that way, let me make the point. No, it's true. I'm not arguing that it's a true thing. I'm not arguing that's a true thing. It's a true thing. A aggressive way to the point where we were supporting dictators in Chile who were electrocuting the truth. And another true thing is that other people in the world have the same thing happen to them and get over it at some point. But more quickly.

Maybe some people just do it. Again, this is not as an apologist for Shavez's policies this way, or rather his decision-making process, but his decision-making process is one we should study, because when you have no trust and when you feel and you have good reason to believe that the U.S. is trying to kill you, because we had done it before with Pinochet. And so he was a bad dude. He was a bad dude and we supported him, you know, with Kissinger's money. Shankova era was a bad dude.

Well, again, I wasn't there. I think there are things about Che Guevara that are to me quite luring. I'm not a sadistic. I'm not. He's not Elvis Presley. He's definitely not. But I think he's a police honest many T-shirts. But again, for example, let's go to Giuliani.

Giuliani. Can we agree that there were 10 minutes. Where Giuliani represented more leadership than the White House did. When he did, when he did, oh, 9-11. There were 10 minutes. Where you and I said, oh, wow. So what I'm saying about Shavez, his original 10 minutes meant something that we've not been willing to look back.

Here's what I would say about Giuliani. He did certainly when he was mayor of New York during that crisis did a fine job. And I would always give him credit for that. But my question about that is sort of the same thing I always thought about Captain Sullenberger, remember, that he landed on the floor? Yeah, yeah. Again, did a fine job. My question, that's opposed to what?

I hit the Empire's table thing, or you tell me that no, no, no. The World Trade Center's been hit, and I say I've got a meeting in the other room. I mean, no, it's completely different things. No, they did meeting in the other room. I mean, no, two completely different things. No, they did well, but they were like, like, no, no, you can't compare. Of course, they're different. No, but let me look.

What is the significant difference that makes me moved by Sully Sulemberg? I moved to is that he put in the 10,000 hours on a skill set, not on a vanity set. Okay. Blusterous vanity set. Okay. Blusterous leadership set, and I'm going to take on the mafia. Right, you need your attention. It's not your Oscar. No, they're putting it on the middle of it the other way. He put in the fucking hours, and you hear it.

Yes, he is on the radio, and he did that for us. Hey, you act. A strong man isn't here. I don't hate Stulley Sullenberger. I'm just, I'm saying, he did that for us. I'm saying, you act, a strong man isn't here. I don't hate someone, brother. I'm just, I'm saying, he did a great thing. He did it great. He like threw a fucking 40 yard pass, zinged it right in there and they got the score.

And, but, you know, it was fourth and 18. What else would he kinda had to do that? No, I would, but we would agree agree that charisma arrogance is charisma in America. And when it's in harmony with America at a moment, like Giuliani was, he's going to have a high point despite himself. Sully Sullenberg is going to have a high point no matter what. I'll be at the Kiva Auditorium in my room. I'm not even ending this show. I'm not even ending this show.

I'm not even ending this show. I'm not even ending this show. I'm not even ending this show. I'm not even ending this show. I'm not even ending this show. I'm not even ending this show. I'm not even ending this show. I'm not even ending this show.

I'm not even ending this show. I'm not even ending this show. I'm not even ending this show. I'm not even ending this show. I'm not even ending this show. I'm not even ending this show. I'm not even ending this show. I'm not even ending this show.

I'm not even ending this show. I'm not even ending this show. I'm not even ending this show. I'm not even ending this show. I'm not even ending this show. I'm not even ending this show. I'm not even ending this show. I'm not even ending this show. I've been at the... What's the city with all the gambling? What's the city with all the gambling? Gambling in the strip. Don't forget the strip. Right.

It was either that or I've been in Macau the last six years. No, I've been at the Mirage and had a great time there. They were so great. But they're changing the show room and I'm going to one of their sister hotels, the MGM Grand, this is my first time there at the David Copperfield Theater, February 17th and 18th, and my puppeteer shot and the movie there, working the DJ booth.

And February 25th, the hard rock in Sacramento, Wheatland, California, actually. I, I, I thought I'd do that, and maybe you wouldn't notice. I'm like, he's had enough drinks now. Maybe you wouldn't even notice that I'm doing this. I still not sure the show started. Ah! Yeah.

Oh, that's good, Corn. Yeah, I gotta say, comedy is king. Yep, I'm telling you, you should do. You're at the perfect age now. And, you know, it's interesting, though, you see. Let me look at De Niro. Like, he went into comedy and he fucking killed it. It's not like you can't still do serious stuff.

But like, at a certain point, we, it's almost like you can't still do serious stuff, but like at a certain point, it's almost like what you were saying before about eliminating the riff-raff in your mind. Like when I watch something, I just want to be entertained. You know, as you mentioned, Robert De Niro, there's a thing about actors that I think is just that always true. It ends up being the truth is that the career, the life, the work of an actor, I think of anybody in the creative, the community as well. It's the body of work that's absorbed no matter what the chronology is. In his case, he did very few comedies and then he, you know, after midnight run, everybody said, oh, wait a minute.

And nobody thought that America's most gifted dramatic actor was going to become its biggest comedy star. I mean, it was just, it was not, and he had that in there. You think that started with Midnight Run? I think Midnight Run is when the money of movies... Because I love that movie. Charles Groden, I didn't see him. You know, it's, here's a sad thing about the times we live in.

Almost any movie you mentioned, not any, but so many. The immediate reaction from someone you're talking to if it's a private conversation, it can be real, is, oh, they couldn't make that today. If I had a nickel for every fucking time I heard, and I concur, they couldn't make that. I was watching Rain Man the other day. I didn't see it.

It was so great. It's such a great movie. I couldn't make it. I use the example all the time on one floor over the Coocus Nest. I can tell you exactly the conversation that would happen. If we've got whoever the equivalent star of Jack Nicholson, which by there isn't one, I think he's doing fine. He's just invested in his private life.

I remember you once took me to his house. Yeah, he's a force of nature And somebody's always an angel on my shoulder creatively. No, I know he thinks of you as like a son. And he's okay. And he, yeah, yeah, I mean, he has such a fastened mind. It's he's such an ex he's joisy and and and sometimes you have to just go a great way to put it because I never know what he was talking about. That's when you have to go melody instead of lyrics. It's sometimes the best brain you can get in a minute. But I used to be a general party said Sue Manger's house.

Yeah, yeah. And I would sometimes see him next to Jack or talk to him and like I just kind of went with it because like he would laugh at him. I was like what the curtains should be washed. What does that mean? And then some kind of start conversations in the middle. And he's like, well, you know I'll read these.

That's the stuff. And I'm already your off center because you don't know old red. He's exactly. And nobody, if you went mel, if you had, whenever you shifted, you went melody. He just didn a genius.

He's Jack fucking nickel. He should be a mental case in his private life. But what is the same about Google? And they long. I can tell you literally what the conversation would be. Yes, we want to make this film. Yes, to the budget, but he can't die in the end. And also it stars Amy Schumer.

Yeah. No. I'll take Amy Schumer any day. She is fantastic. Yeah, she is. Over a lot of what ends up out. Oh, if you've never seen a 30-minute long sketch she once did in black and white, she filmed like a movie called 12 Angry Men Inside Amy Schumer. I'll be right up to you know, okay, please.

Now you only two, now you only two blood jobs. Because you were so gonna love this. It's a parody of 12 Angry Men. And it's all, and then the cast is like amazing. Like, well, there's a surprise, you're not in it. Like all these like, people are the angry men and they're deciding whether she's hot enough to be on TV. And instead of a knife on the table,

remember having refunded it with a knife, it's a dildo. It's just, it's the best sort of parody thing I've ever seen on television. Well, you know, it's interesting because I don't know her well, I've known her a little bit. And I do have a sense of her and I've seen her where she had me completely hysterical. I've seen things where I wasn't sure I

was following it, but I get a sense, you know, if there's, if you got a group, we get a group of soldiers, you know, culture soldiers together of 10, she'd be in them. She's got something, she's gotten something special. And you think we need culture soldiers? Well, interesting phrase. I think we do. I think we, I feel like when I hear, it sounds to me like social justice warrior. And,

No, you know what I mean? It's what my version of it, it's Bill Mar, who since things I agree with, these things I don't agree with. But where I feel I'm getting the, that I'm being recognized as authentic, because this person accepts themselves as authentic. And it's, I look at comedy, like throughout the COVID period,

it was a sanity keeper, to the degree I could keep sanity. It was you, it was Dave Chappelle, it was a handful of others who Bill Burr, you know, where you sat there, you say, I'm not even in a world where I have to agree or disagree. I just have to see authenticity. Well, the three of us that you mentioned there were all people who call out the woke a lot. So I feel like that is a little bit of a contradiction in you. I feel like you like instinctively want to go toward that direction because, you know, you have that tingling feeling in your balls for any sort of thing that's like says

there's social justice, but at some point that movement veered into authoritarianism. That's why the word woke, which originally was fine, you know, alert to injustice. I'm down, always have been, but it became an eye roll because I got more, I got more to the subject. I got more to the subject. I got more to the subject. I got more to the subject. I got more to the subject.

I got more to the subject. I got more to the subject. I got more to the subject. I got more to the subject. I got more to the subject. I got more to the subject. I got more to the subject. I got more to the subject. I got more to the subject. that thought when you're 150 meters from the Russians when you're seeing the devastation and the vaporization of human beings. Now I owe you a blow job. You are not going to remember all the pronouns. So that I've been preaching that. See there. I know you have. There we can like and you're the one guy who can say it because again, we'll see, you walk the walk.

But Sean, I mean, you said you're 62. How long can you, I mean, when I think about traveling to Ukraine, like the first thing that would cross my mind is peeing. Well, that will not have enough opportunities to be able to do this trip to the front line. No, let me tell you, that was the front line. No, let me tell you that was the front lines. That was an eight hour drive.

And you're not gonna piss in the trench. I can't even. And I don't know about you, but I know about my gentleman, I get bottled up. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm in fact, I think I'm gonna rely on depends here out. It's when you, Mrs. Robinson, this conversation

is getting a little awkward. No, this really has to, let's end that part of this discussion there on urinary issues. But what I'm just saying is like, I really think. I mean, I'm five years older than you, but I'm telling you, yes, am I a million times more of a coward than you are? Yes, I'm Bob Hope. You're the, you're the, you're being

cross-be, okay? That's my character. I'm sorry. I'm just not, I just don't like pain or like discomfort, am I going to avoid it? Shoot me. Anyway, but you, you know, you walked that walk. So you are almost uniquely qualified to call out the wolf. It's almost a responsibility. I quoted you here last week with Brian Cranston was here and he was saying he did the upside, which I thought was a fantastic movie. He's in a wheelchair.

Kevin Hart is the guy who takes care of him. And he said, you know, he got a lot of shit from people who thought the part should have gone to someone in a wheelchair. And I said, Sean Penn had the great line, which is in the future, the only people who can play Hamlet are actual princes of Dutch princes. Yeah. Yeah. It's true.

This is what I had in it. I went to University at Albany and And I had just put out the book that you were kind enough to put a quote to yeah Bob honey who just do stuff very first novel and I was traveling with the book doing you know talk you know doing readings and discussions with moderators at other writers, at bookstores and so on, trying to sell hustle the thing. And I went up to the University of Albany,

where Harvey Milk had gone to school. And the book was being taught by one of the literary professors there. And that meant that I had a lot of people in that audience when I came out who actually had read it. Wow. And where I felt when I read criticisms of it, which were great, the most, I could tell that most of them had not actually read it through. And fair enough. through and and fair enough. But what happened is that because I had mentioned the Me Too movement in a skeptical way as a movement at large and what was happening in terms of the trending movement of

I questioned that in the book and so I had protesters outside the auditorium at the university. And some of those protesters found their way into the auditorium. Most of them were outside with the banners, you know, Fuck Sean Penn or whatever it was. And I was in the wings and they had told me, you know, there's so and so as they had the university department here is going to introduce you and then moderate the conversation. And I'm waiting in the wings in this auditorium and I'm hearing the introduction. And at some point, close to saying, now ladies and gentlemen, Sean Penn and I come out.

They mentioned the movie Milk. Yeah, everyone knows that. Yeah, and we've got a big applause. And I was listening to that applause and I was realizing the contradiction in it and what was happening outside of the protesters in a few inside. And when I came out, I think the first thing I said, which was, I think, a fair observation, were that film made today, I couldn't play that part. That's right. And the same people, who, two minutes before they were

applauding milk, were thinking, fuck him about me too. Suddenly, we're hardwired into an acceptance. And also institutions are becoming the opposite of what they're supposed to be. College is supposed to be about scholars. And free speech and opening your mind. And now it's about, you can't say this, how dare you. Not only that, worse than that,

it's you can't teach it this high level how dare you. Hence the end why you, or organic science producer, professor who was fired because too many of the kids' parents wrote complaining letters you're making in course too hard. And these are people who are going to be our professional. Right. Health professionals. Oh no. I mean, colleges have been taking over by ideologues. Yeah. This is, I mean, there is something going on here to come full circle here that is very

reminiscent of Mao's cultural revolution in 1966 with DEI officers as the Red Guard. I mean, people like that. Now, of course, there is a place for DEI officers and there should be some, like, I think Michigan State is 140. That's a lot of witches to be hunting. Yeah, that's a lot of witches to be hunting. It's a big investment in the hunting of witches.

It's a well said, exactly. So, you know, that doesn't make me a conservative to point that out. I just always wanna keep it real. That's... And, you know, we've talked about this before, you know, whenever people applaud their socialism and they use that word,

I wanna fight them because we know, we know from every experiment around the world of socialism. It doesn't work. Oh, capitalism is not sustainable. There are, if your grandmother is alone at home and someone breaks in, she calls 911, she doesn't have to put her credit card down with the police show up.

That's socialism also. But don't call it that. Well, shut the fuck up and just communicate policies to people without relying on the trending titles and all the bullshit that so many of those. Yes, there is a perfectly rational, it would take two seconds to explain socialism in the rational way, which is America is already quasi-socialist as it should be. As every Western democracy is and most other countries in the world that know how to do

it right, it's not just Western countries now. But yes, there are places where social, I mean, the military is socialists. This is going to be the battle of the next month with the debt ceiling. Yeah, of course. This is going to be the battle. What is bigger socialism than making tanks we don't need? It's because it's a jobs program in districts that make tanks, and they want to keep making them even if the Pentagon says we have enough already. That could not be more socialistic. And then we have a lot of excess

social, I mean, what was the bailout of the pandemic? Six trillion dollars, really just, and most of it was stolen. We know that. That's a little hard to take. So, yeah, we have socialism already. you know, I've always thought we should have socialized medicine in more all of the areas. Well, we can, by the way, these are sellable stories. Right. If you don't call them socialism. Or at least a public option.

It's just, I mean, how the Republicans fought that one, I never understood, because you're supposed to be for freedom, options. We're not even men, some men don't know. Just a option, it's in the word, public option. It's just an option. And of course, they won that battle. But to be in a time where Adam Kinziger,

Liz Chatey are on an anchor in to civility. You know, well, you know, I, I, come on. I, I, see that, I think it's the wrong fucking attitude. They, we admire them because there was a bridge too far for them, which was, no, you can do everything, but you can't try to say an election didn't happen the way it did. You can't, that's the way to banana republic. Those are what I call good as it gets Republicans.

I have Bill Barr on the show Friday night. He's my lead guest. A lot of people won't like me just even platforming him. But what fucking good does it do to just say that these people are irredeemable or deplorable or they can't be reached? Or I mean, I could argue with Bill Barr about a million things and I'm going to hold this feature to the vibe about one thing that always fucking stuck in my crawl. That is when the Mueller report came out.

He gave a summary, which was unnecessary because he was provided one by Mueller, didn't want to use that. Prior to his own and said Trump was cleared of obstruction of justice when Mueller plainly said, we're not clearing him. We're just saying he's not. Yes, so he made an informational mistake for sure there. An informational mistake, a purpose, anyway. But the thing that people don't talk about enough when it comes to the Mueller report and Mueller is that I clearly, and I understand this, most people don't understand the culture of service oriented people, especially when it comes to military, chain of command. Those are things that we are benefiting from in a great way as a better

way to organize it than other ways that we've come up with so far. So you have a guy like Robert Mueller who is an extraordinary civil servant, both in his military history and his post-military history, who recognizes the chain of command. And most people, unsure as we sit here tonight, still don't understand probably what I think is the most important thing that Mueller was never going to tell us. He said from his level that there was no way said from his level that there was no way to indict a sitting president. That was not law. That was justice department. I'm policy. I know. I made the same point. I know. Yeah. Right. But but Bill Barr, anyway, the point is I could argue

without a million things. Yes, I'm going to bring this up because I'm sorry, but he's got to answer for Santino on the cause way. Other than that, what point is there to just get into like this, I hate you. I can mention all these things I hate about you. Versus like he came to do the show. Yeah. He, you know, in other words, I have to accept that there is a certain conservative personality. I think it has, I think the personality comes before the politics.

You're just born with a certain chip or it has to do with where you're from, but sometimes it's just a chip in your brain. And you're like, he's bill bar, he's a conservative. That's him. Type and slippers, turkey dinner, Christian. Come on, it's just a type, stopping angry that that's the type. And of course, a certain sort of politics comes out of that type. Also, if you're, if you're, if you're a gender,

goes into the abstract and rather than the tangible literal obvious if it's I want tomorrow better for everybody. I don't know how we get there. Then they do the starting they would say they do but the starting point is the same starting point in a relationship between two people. Interesting. Yes. The right is overrated. Right. between two people. Interesting. The right is overrated. Right. Well, it's like, how do we move the ball forward enough to get a first down?

Okay. That's what we should be doing in everything that we're doing. We do invest in citizens, but technically. We are a barrier. So you think being right is over a rated is, you know, because when you're married, you have to get that view. I've earned that view because I've always been right, Bill. I know what I'm saying.

I'm arguing that point. I'm just saying when you're in a marriage, you have to pretend that you're not right. Even when you think you're right, you know, because it's about keeping the peace in your own planet earth, you've got to at least accept that you might not be right. Oh, and you have to also, I couldn't agree with you. Also consider the possibility that everybody else is wrong. You've got to do both. That's what makes us human. That's our thumbs. Okay. So you just made my case for me about the thousands and thousands of thousands of doctors who just sent from your point of view about the vaccines. But I really didn't mean to bring it back to that.

Okay, honey. Can I rub your back? Well, but I mean, I've always thought that that was your romantic Irish soul. That you like you are a soulmate finder You you want to you know, the problem is we all evolve so much in life that the soulmate changes. Yeah, and you know like I feel a certain kind of our level a certain soul mate is that we saw the first time we met each other It's been consistent. And I look back on relationship. There's a lot of ego that gets in the way of things and all of

that, but there is a lesson to be seen if one looks for it, which is that whether we're talking about our worst enemies or our best friends, the best thing we can do for our children is finding commonality. And every time we try to do that, every time we do that, aggressively, we're so, we get such a reward. I'm so glad to hear you say that. Because I don't always think of you that way.

Because, you know, maybe it's from Team America, world-police. You know, which by the way, I never saw that. It's my son's favorite movie. It's almost my favorite movie. And I don't, those guys, the South Park guys, I don't really know them. I didn't, I don't, I met those guys.

And I ended up, I ended up writing a letter to one of them that he exploited. He used it publicly when they were opening up to America. But my problem was something he had said, one of the two of them had said something to discourage voting if you were not informed. And I thought, you know, people are informed

in different ways and you get, I don't like the idea of discouraging voting and I went against him in that rotimus letter and it timed out with his release of this film. I didn't even know that I was a part of the subject matter. Boy, that was stupid, but what I, it was good to know that is that I never got, still don't get South Park, but I don't either. I don't either. But what I will say, many people love it.

Is that smart people, those guys who created the Book of Mormon. Yes, that's great too. Our fucking genius. Well, if you like that, I'm going to twice world. World twice team America. Team America is is talk about you couldn't make it today. I mean, and that's why it's so great. And you know, it's right. It's post 9-11. So it's about, you know, I won't spoil it, but that's another movie to put on your list. I can't believe. Well, you know, this thing I recently watchached every movie I guess movie stars not watch movies, you know, I've gotten I think it's you know it's like me listening to comedy. It's like it's like a Busman's holiday. You know what I think you were originally falling love with movies and you go and like

I love the period that I had where I loved every movie in one way or no. Like, a movie was always exciting to me. And, you know, over time you accumulate a taste of certain kinds of things that you particularly celebrate, but, you know, you'll take the guilty pleasures. I think for me, going to a movie theater is a public place that represents my professional life. So I'm going to go somewhere where there are likely people who are going to recognize me. Is there interested in movies? And that's its own downside. I think Bob Dylan said the greatest thing about that. The worst thing about famous people reminding you of who you are. Right.

And so you become allergic to that. And then when certain genres take over the space of what, like I always refer to it as the girl I fell in love with, was mostly alone, not on a date, not with a buddy, but when I would go in the afternoon or Westwood, I'd go and know one of those theaters and see the movie I wanted to see. Those, it's like the first time you tasted something, you just go alone.

Jake did the same thing in New York. It was the best. When I first moved in there, right out of college, and my first department was on eighth avenue, above a bus stop, probably made me very sick later in life. eighth avenue, bus stop, and I would wake up at like one-thirty in the afternoon, take a piss. I'd walk down Broadway every theater was playing

in Times Square. This was like 1980. I didn't have to look in the paper. Anything I wanted to see was at that in 1980, I was living at 48th, between 8th and 9th, right there. And I tell this story sometimes, I remember that it was the first time I ever lived in a, a story building,

because I had been running around as an acting student and couch surfing and doing what you do. It's our life better. And then I couldn't get a job in LA. So I went to New York to try to work in the theater there. I was doing equity waiver theater stuff. I went to New York with a buddy of mine. We paid $375 down, which included the security deposit in an apartment. It was a one room. Thanks. I remember one night he called me from a pay phone because that's how you called somebody. And we had put in a hard line with our two mattresses on the floor in this apartment. And I was going to bed because I didn't have the money to do anything else.

And I knew how to go to sleep at that time, a little bit at night. And the phone rang and it was him. And he was coming in from Queens on the E-Train. And he was a little drunk and he was trying to get his old girlfriend back and heartbroken and he begged me to rally and meet him at this bar, two blocks away from the hotel. We'd been living in the apartment for about five, six days at that point. We had not taken the garbage out.

And I didn't know where you take the garbage out in a high-rise building. And so I get dressed and rally to go meet him. He's dealing with his heartbreak. And it was always interesting at that time to walk down. I had that because it was like all the prostitutes. One of the date, one of the date, and you felt like you were living taxi driver or something. Right.

Yes. We had this out of work actor bar down the road. I met you there. I got dressed and I get an elevator. And next to me is the most exotic, beautiful woman I've ever seen. I'm growing up as a surfer in Malibu and I'm looking into a woman who doesn't look like the Barbie's I'm used to.

She looks like when I went to the dentist office I saw the cover of Vogue. Yeah. And I'm thinking,. She looks like when I went to the dentist office, I saw the cover of Vogue. Yeah. And I'm thinking, okay, wow, this is New York. And I've got to figure out a line. And I'm shy. But I can't, I won't forgive myself to not try. And I said to her, I pressed, she had pressed the lobby and we were coming down. We had another 12 floors to go down. And they started going down and I got to come up with something. And my line was, do you know where the garbage goes in this building? Did you have it with you?

And her response was, yeah, you take it right down to the, it's a man. And I'm hearing Lou Reed in my head take a walk outside. Yeah, I take that story to mean a long, overdue celebration of us being whatever we want to be a woman, a man, a man, like a woman, a fish, a tree. You know that the kids in school can know identify as a tree. I'm not kidding. I, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I I identify as a hot dog bun who wants his own bathrooms. We got to get a hold of the silliness to the world culture. Well, that's not a load of burden on your shoulders, but honestly, sweetheart, it is really

more and coming on someone like you. All the liberals who are privately tell me, we agree on all this stuff, who are known liberals. The reason why you're in Team America, world police is because you're a big star. It was Alec Baldwin, was the head of the film actor's guild or Fag. That's what I thought was quoting the movie. Well, they're pretty irreverent, that's think. I'm just quoting the movie.

Well, they're pretty irreverent. That's okay. I mean, you know, I... But like the reason it was you and, you know, Matt Damon, it was the Stars of the Day, just like it was the Stars of the Day in 1985. I really... It was very low-hanging fruit as the argument I'd made while I was

touching Matt in the face. What I'm saying is you have the cachet and the credibility as such a revolutionary that, you know, when you say it, it means a lot more than what I say it, because like, they know I don't pull those punches on either side, but it's a lot of this nonsense will only stop when the enablers allow it to stop Well, listen, I remember when you and I had dinner that night at that tower

You know and and the ladies from the magazine came by and we're talking, you know, you've been yeah Yeah, I don't want to name people on a thing But it was a big magazine publisher editor fashion involved person. Oh. And they came to the table briefly and it was at the moment that a young woman, I can't remember what the thing was, but she had been canceled for texts or high school. Did she, yeah, in high school?

Probably Alexi McCammon. Right. Yeah. She was a rising star on MSNB. Yes, and then slaughtered. And you sit there. So listen, I mean, it's flattering when you say, you know, someone like you can say, I don't know that.

I don't have any grasp of a credibility. I know that I have people who, who, who, alternatively agree with me. Well, I'll give you another. Can I give you an analogous example, I think. To. Woody Allen. Almost everybody turned their back Well, I'll give you another. Can I give you an analogous example, I think? Sure. Woody Allen. Almost everybody turned their back

because he is accused, although not proven to be, and many of us think it's ludicrous that he actually is this thing, a pedophile who started at the age of 57. Okay. But most actors just completely caved. They caved. And it was such an... It was your hands inaved. They caved. And it was such an...

Scarlett Johansson is God bless her. I know. It was like... Fuck you all. I'll work with him whenever I want to. And, you know, we live... Scarlett Johansson. So uniquely...

Love her for that. Is... Intuitively on the right side of almost everything. She's a very unique character. Oh, good. And someone I have with you. That certainly would indicate that to me. I have a deep respect for her.

And she also took very strong positions during the Me Too period. I think she alone bridged reality. If she alone was the voice, we would have been in a better position. Yeah, she sounds like it. But the this whole that well I'm looking we all we all use the word pendulum words the word's pendulum swing, and we're hopeful that there's a, and I'm certain that there's a pendulum swing. I don't know when it's going to happen. Everybody I know, like in your age range, is constantly complaining to me,

like I'm the confessor, about how much they can't stand their uber woke children. We're like teenagers or early 20s. And they're like, they just can't, they're like, they just want to slap them. And to that, I say deep breaths. Yeah. Because they'll get over it.

You think? Well, here's what I just say to myself, is take some stride and some fundamentalist militant, you know, person in that period where there were the real things likely the Harvey thing and this thing and that thing. The woodie thing never made sense to me because I've never heard watching forensic files of a pedophile who only did it once. So it just never made any sense to me. Really?

And in a house full of adults. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was in the middle of a custody fight. It's just, in the middle of a custody fight with somebody who adopted every child they could find and whose brother was doing time for a pedophile. Whose brother exactly? And who had a, who, and from a woman

who had a giant motivation to be revengeful. No denying the vengeful. Yes, no denying the comprehension. But like, and exonerated by two different, you know, investigations, that's all I'm saying is like, Hollywood is a bunch of fucking coward. And I'll tell you something else because I do have to wrap this up. And because I have to pee.

And I have to pee too. But I am telling you Sean, swear to God, my belief about people in show business. I love show business. I'm so glad I got to be in show business. But most of when people ask me, I'll say straight up, the default setting for anyone's show business is the most people are completed.

Well, you know, the most family actors. You have the ability to cut. You can edit this and put it in this. So I just share this with you before we go pee across sorts. No. So there was a meeting. I was driving to the Mahabhi Desert from Northern California with my son. We had our dirt bikes strapped in the back of my El Camino. We stopped. We were going to stop for the evening in the L.A. at the Four Seasons. He was going to

go with a friend of mine to a movie. I was going to go to a meeting down the street from the Four Seasons at Lambertage Hotel. And the meeting were the people who were being called traders at the time. Those who were very vocal about the invasion of Iraq on the basis of weapons of mass destruction and all that. And I don't know who's comfortable with me naming them. So it doesn't matter, but you know, you can go back and Google the group who were on the billboards on Sunset and its traders and so on. And Gorvodal was going to hold court with that group and have a little group think.

And I got my son with my buddy and he was there were about to go off to the movies. I came downstairs into four seasons and I ran into Michael Moore. And I was going to this thing and I thought, are you going to this, he didn't know about it. I said, what are you doing? So I was going to take a walk. Have you ever met Gorbadaw? I had not met Gorbadaw at that point, but I wanted to.

And he said, no, I said, come with me. We went, it was a group of about 15 who were just sharing their positions and their experience and their thoughts on where we were headed. I don't know that it had a particular agenda. It was more of a commissaration that somebody had organized because you could count on your fingers who the people were that were standing up. And Michael, as a late-comer, stood quiet for most of it at the end of it because he was at the Four Seasons because the next night was the Academy Awards, and everyone knew, Vegas knew.

He was going to win for the Columbine movie. But having made the Columbine movie, having that as a focal point of his public discourse, things had accelerated in Iraq, and he had shit to say about that. I remember. So he came to this thing and he said, and he opened it up at the end of the conversation. He said,

I have a speech written. If I win for tomorrow, which people say I'm going to, but does anybody have any input as to anything I might add to it? But does anybody have any input as to anything I might add to it? And I will say, my idea, and Michael can confirm this. And I think we both wish he'd done it, was to just thank the Academy, acknowledge those who had suffered in Columbine, and were suffering, and those who had suffered in Columbine and were suffering and those are lost and be grateful that this group was going to add an add impact to that

conversation. Well one last thing, could everyone in this room for time and perpetuity who believes the US should invade Iraq, please stand up for the cameras for the 300 million viewers? I mean, they booted him as it was. Yeah. That would have been indictment that would have been done as a lot. Well, he's the last guy you can say he doesn't have enough balls because that guy's got huge balls.

He's fantastic. That's a intimidating room. But you remember when you were with him in Hawaii when I brought my car to Hawaii? Yeah. We did the total. Yeah. Yeah. And he was you, like, I started to say this, like most people at showbiz idiots, but there is, you know, also I would also say about showbiz's, the crem-de-la crem is crem. Like the directors who last, you know, the Spielbergs, they're there for a reason, it wasn't, anyone can get lucky for two years or five years. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But the careers that last, like yours, that have this kind of endurance over decades, it's because the cream does rise to the top. I mean, this town is full of bullshit, but it adores talent, and it does elevate it and usually correctly. You know, I mean, I can certainly find some casting. It's right, as I didn't agree with. But mostly they find, you know, that's their job to find the good people, which is why it's a shame. I couldn't see Dustin Hoffman, equivalent in Rainman today.

But I just want to wrap up by saying, like this, you know, yes, it's mostly idiots, but the people who are smart in this business like you, you know, and you could be not the A-listing swashbuckler that you are, and you would you could be not the A listing swashbuckler you are and you would be just as interesting to talk to. You know, your head is just a font of knowledge and I'm just not gonna interrupt that thought. Yeah, thank you. All right. Well, I thank you and I thank you for doing this. I'm like sure I'd notice. Good luck with your career. Thank you very much. Back at you.