Coffeez with Joe Shalaby - Clash of the Titans West Capital CEO Daniel Iskander | Coffeez for Closers with Joe Shalaby Ep. 7

Episode Date: February 23, 2024

In today's episode of Coffeez for Closers, we are thrilled to welcome Daniel Iskander, the CEO of West Capital Lending and a formidable figure in the mortgage industry. From his early days as a nationally ranked loan officer to becoming the visionary co-founder of West Capital Lending, Daniel's journey is a testament to his extraordinary drive and resilience. Under his leadership, West Capital Lending has emerged as the #1 partner for Rocket Mortgage for the past two years, showcasing the impact of his innovative strategies in the financial world.🔥 Episode Highlights: 🔥What You'll Learn:The Daniel Iskander Blueprint: Uncover the principles and strategies that drove Daniel to the pinnacle of the mortgage industry, transforming West Capital Lending into a leading powerhouse.Innovation in Mortgage Financing: Daniel shares his unique insights on revolutionizing the mortgage landscape, highlighting how innovation and customer-centric approaches can redefine industry standards.Crafting a Mortgage Empire: Gain insights into the essentials of business development and scaling, learning from Daniel's journey on how to build and grow a successful enterprise in the competitive mortgage sector.The Future of Mortgage Financing: Receive expert predictions from Daniel on the evolving dynamics of the mortgage industry and how to stay ahead in this rapidly changing environment.Don’t Miss This!Join us as Daniel Iskander delves into his invaluable experiences, lessons learned, and the wisdom he has garnered throughout his remarkable career. Whether you’re involved in finance, entrepreneurship, or simply have a passion for innovation and success, this episode is laden with actionable insights that can propel you forward in your own journey.Connect with Us:Subscribe to our channel for more enlightening episodes.Drop your thoughts and questions in the comments below—we eagerly anticipate your feedback!Follow us on social media to keep up with future guests and episode sneak peeks.Grab your cup of coffee and settle in for a conversation that might just redefine your perspective on business, finance, and achieving success.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

What's up everybody. Welcome to Coffees for Closers, a show about visionaries, entrepreneurs, and of course, closers. Here we talk about their wins, their failures, and ultimately the story of their success. What's up, everybody? Welcome to another episode of Coffees for Closers. The podcast where Industry Johns reveal how they built their empires from scratch over some coffee. Today, we're sitting down. with Daniel Iskander, a powerhouse in the mortgage industry. And this is a bit of a controversial one, whose journey from a nationally ranked loan officer to the visionary co-founder of West Capital Lending embodies resilience, leadership, and innovation. And in today's special episode, Daniel will share the roots of his remarkable drive and resilience.

So pour yourself a fresh cup of coffee, and let's explore the mind of Daniel Iskander, A closer was changing the game, one loan at a time. Thank you, Danny, for coming into today's episode. I know a lot of people are tuning in today just like, whoa, I can't believe this is really, really happening. So, you know, I'm glad you came. And even you yourself are like, I can't believe Joe's inviting me to the show. So, you know, Danny, you're like a brother to me and you'll always be one.

So I wanted you on the show. And, you know, we're going to dive right into it. And this show is not going to be what you guys out there think it's about. This is a show about really exploring his creative talent, his brilliance, and his ability to accomplish so much success at a nationally ranked level in such a short window of time. It's really an astounding attribute. And it's really, you know, something that I myself admire about you. It's your resilience, your grind, your grit, your ability to overcome obstacles.

And, you know, and that leads me to my first question. like what has really inspired you to have so much grit, what really developed that talent and how did you become someone who is able to persevere? You know, I think the mortgage industry, it kind of like it gives you thick skin, you know, and I think getting in early right after college and getting in, you know, starting to realize the opportunity in mortgage and making $10,000, $20,000, $30,000 a month, you start to develop this big lifestyle, car, and house, and then the market just evaporated in 2008. And I think, like, losing, you know, I foreclosed on a house, I lost all these opportunities that I had, and it just made me realize that, you know, you have to have thick skin in this industry, you have to persevere, you have to have grit, you have to put in the hours, you have to consistently develop relationships and be willing to just double down

on yourself because you never know when things are going to turn and when you know when things get rough it gets really really rough you know it's either crazy high highs or really really low lows and so i think uh kind of going through that experience uh in 2008 it really gave me just i would say the perseverance and thick skin to just grind it out every single day and figure out what i was going to do to to to win i love it i love it now who who do you think like in your life has inspired you the most to have such grit, such perseverance? I think there's two sides. There's the family side. And that's my dad. He's going to turn 83 years old. He's a physician. He's an attorney. He is a wildly incredible investor in real estate, in stock market.

I mean, he's just, anything he touches just turns to gold. I don't know what it is about him. But he's incredibly humble, and he just works very, very hard even until this day. I mean, I don't think he's delivered a baby. He's an OB-GYN physician, but I don't think he's delivered a baby man in six, seven months, but he's always working. He's always doing something. So I'd say from the family side, my dad has instilled that in me. And then I think just being in the mortgage industry for now 20 years,

I think that there's been a lot of like VPs, senior VPs, leaders that I just I would like watch how they would lead, what they would do with companies, how they would run meetings, the direction that they would take certain companies, and I would just look at their leadership style and then take little bits and pieces from different people. Chad Smith is one of them. I think he's a great leader. A couple of the leaders at Lone Depot from being there. Anthony Shea, Home Loan Center back in 2004 when I started in this business. So I think a lot of the, just two sides, the mortgage mentors and the leaders that I had a lot of respect for. Some I didn't, some I did, but I think my dad on the family side and then just various mortgage leaders in the industry. You know, that's something me and you both share. You know, we both have immigrant fathers from Egypt who are both physicians who are still grinding every single day.

you know, my dad's younger than yours. He turned 74. Your dad's 83. I think he won ups my dad because he's vegan. So he could like still like great shape, you know, like still. So, but you know, to me and that's always resonated with me. It's like our dads are like, that's, there's no excuse for us to be lazy. Our dads are grinding every single day.

Like I don't care where we're at in our lives or how successful. Like I go, my dad's still grinding. I don't. He's going to work every day. Can't get. He's not going. I'm sick. He's not calling it.

You never have a sick day. No. Have you ever had a sick day? It's rare. Yeah. It's rare. You know, you just got to preserve it. You got to, you know, get to show up.

Yeah. And yeah, my dad is that same way. I can't imagine him like taking a couple days off of being sick. He's going to figure out how to get his ass out of bed, get to work, do his job and do it well. You know, that mindset, and that's something that mean you both. still have is that it's like that immigrant mindset even though I'm an immigrant you're not but you just work like one but you know you have that mentality like you outwork everybody and that's really what I feel has been a huge you know reason for your success now a lot of people are

working hard and work's not the only reason you know obviously intelligence and application and and obviously the ability to persevere through different turmoil. And more importantly, like the ability to like leverage your resources, you're very good at that as well. So, you know, that's something I also, very, very commendable. One thing I really personally admire about you is like, and then I also related to myself as like the balance of work and family. Like you have a great relationship with your kids.

You got a great relationship with your coworkers. You got a great relationship with other, with just your staff members. So talk to me a little bit about that. How do you balance work and maintaining a good family life and maintaining a happy wife? And I'm like, how do you balance all that? She hasn't been happy with me recently, so I'll just throw that out there. No, in all reality, it's, look, it's a total juggling act.

And I think, I do think that that immigrant mentality somewhat kind of is willing to give up a little certain things. like with family, I didn't always have all the time that I wanted. My dad put in a lot of long hours, and I think that, you know, we were actually at dinner last night and we were talking about it. And I was like, I think we only went on like three family vacations. And like, I think it, my wife pushes me to make sure that I'm balancing family and work, because work can definitely suck you in. But it's a constant reminder. I love my kids more than anything. I want to spend time with them.

I want to show them all the things that I like to do in life and travel and teaching them things and instilling hard work in them and just being there for them. But it's a constant juggling act, so I'm not going to say that I'm the best person at it. I'm asking for myself too. I'd love to see. I look at your relationship with your kids.

I admire it and your wife and your family and your daddy daycare all the time. And it's awesome. It really is. These 24-hour shifts, I'm like, all right, we got to do something fun, right? That's awesome. And, you know, it's so cool. It's so cool because you're always doing cool stuff with them. You're always taking them, like, in Arabic, it's like, Baba Befasana.

It's like, it means, like, dad's always taking us out. He's, like, having fun with us. And it's, it's something that I always try to do that too, right? And then mom's coming in, like, you know, calling shots and not nearly as fun as us. True. Yeah. True. But,

but, you know, you were a VP at Lone Depot, right? Were you a VP of all sales or VP? What was the exact title? I was VP of sales. At the time, there was two VPs in Foothill Ranch, which was our largest location. So I had seven or eight sales teams. And then there was another VP. And then we reported to an SVP and an EVP.

Wow. So that leads me in our next question. Like you were the VP of sales. You had a big W-2 job. So what is it like, what was the catalyst that caused you to go from this high-paying W-2 job to the independent zero-paying job in the broker channel and then going from, you know, this big W-2 to like starting from scratch? What was the catalyst that caused that for you?

You know, it's funny because Eric and I, we like to share our story in order. orientation, right? Both of us kind of came from consumer direct world and being in a call center. And yeah, it was in late 2018. We had an off-site meeting. And it was one of these emergency meetings. It's like, we're losing all these people. Tons of loan officers are quitting. We had three comp cuts for the worst in 2018. And we're trying to spin it. We're trying to figure out all these different ways how to retain loan officers. But the average income commission went from like, I believe, I believe it was 16, 17,000, don't quote me on the exact numbers, but it had gone all the way down to like $6,000. And I realized how hard these loan officers were working. They were grinding, blitzing. It was like morning blitz, late blitz, you know, I remember our metrics, the talk times went from like four hours was like an average loan officer talk time.

Then it went to like five hours. Then it went to six hours. and you'd have some loan officers like eight, nine hours of talk time. It was like code read emails, take more calls, do this more, do this more. And I just remember looking at the income level and seeing all of our top producers quit. The number one guy quit. The number three guy quit. The number two guy quit.

And it just, the culture started to fragment. And it started to, so this meeting was this big meeting. And it was like, hey, look, the company. was not profitable. We're losing top producers. The culture is changing. And I remember, you know, Anthony, you know, just looking across the room, like, what are you going to do about it? What are we going to do about it?

You know? And nobody said a word. It was literally crickets. And then, you know, maybe dumb me. I'm like, I finally was like kind of at my breaking point. And I just went and I just said, look, Anthony, I'm like, if things don't change, if the culture doesn't change, you know, know, we're pushing these LOs too hard. Comp is going down, right?

It's harder for us to recruit new loan officers just because the culture and things are changing. I'm like, this is a great company. Like, but certain things have to change. And I think just kind of talking up in that environment, and I have tremendous amount of respect for Anthony. He's built an incredible business. That has nothing to do with him. He was just trying to assess the situation. So there's no knock on that.

It was really the internal leadership of the company that was really pushing, I think, too hard. And, yeah, long story short, I was quickly demoted. And so I remember getting pulled out. You were demoted for speaking your mind. Well, I was, yeah, I mean, I wasn't going in the company direction. I was kind of speaking up a little bit too much and kind of almost like endorsing what I felt was right for loan officers, higher compensation. If they want to go to their kids' baseball game at 5 o'clock, we shouldn't have a sign-up sheet and require that they're going to stay till seven o'clock, right? Like, just like you

talked about, like, family is, for me, is like important. I have three kids. And at the time, I just had my third son, Dylan, born. And I just remember, I'm like, I can't go home to see him. I'm like, I have to stay in blitz. And then I got to wake up at five to do reports, and I got to do X, Y, and Z. And so it just, I started to lose the love of the position. And, getting to be almost 40 years old with three kids and being in call center mortgage for now, at that time, 17 years, I just started to kind of fall out of love with what I was doing. I didn't really believe what I was doing was the right thing to do. And so, yeah, so I spoke up a little bit, and I didn't really kind of go along with the company

culture and the direction that the company was going at that time. And so, yeah, I was quickly replaced, and they brought someone in that was going to crack the whip, you know and uh they replaced me and yeah it was a tough you know tough pill to swallow like i remember i was like you know i was like in tears i will pull to myself outside i'm like oh my god it worked so hard for like 17 years to get up to this position and then you know it can just kind of get taken away from you so i just you know it's crazy to think about or talk about um but that's when i knew that i had to go to kind of the independent route i knew that i needed to to control the things that I wanted to control.

And I ended up prior to meeting you. I don't know if you know this, but I tried to start my own brokerage. I had a business partner. We had applied for four licenses. We bought a direct mail machine. We applied for warehouse lines. We put the financials together. We were doing everything.

And then six weeks into it, I started to realize, man, being a brokerage, owner is not easy, right? The compliance, the paperwork, the this, the that. And so I remember going to the conference in April of 2019, and I went to AIM. And that's when I ran into you. And I remember that we were at Justin Bermanagh's Hams wedding in 2016. We were at the same table. And, you know, our wives are talking. We're having cocktails together. We're both married to a Jessica. We're both married to Jessica. We're both Egyptian. Our both of our dads are... And, you know, you just, I remember that conversation. You're like, well, look, you know, like, I'll take a small split.

You run the show. You figure out what you're going to do. And I think at the time, that was a good deal. And so I remember going to your first little office in Gary Avenue. And all you're doing was on the phone. You're just closing deals. And I'm, like, sitting there waiting, okay, am I going to learn something? Like, where is this going to go?

But you're just, you know, you're a focus on one thing, and that was closing deals at the time. So I kind of felt a little lost and a little bit of on an island trying to figure things out. And that's when, you know, but I knew that the direction of going independent, being in control, having multiple lenders, not having a corporate and political structure that was going to limit me on the things that I felt were important, which was time with family, controlling my schedule. If I wanted to take time off, I'm not worried. I'm like, oh my God, I've got to, I'm putting in my PTO request, is it going to get approved? Is he in a good mood? Is he not in a good? It was like, it just, it just wasn't the, the dream that I had after being in the industry for so

long. So yeah, that's very long response, but that was when I knew that I wanted to kind of leave the corporate world and get into being an independent loan officer, running an independent branch, having control over my time, structuring the type of leave. and sources that I wanted to work, determine the type of lenders that I wanted to work with, have control over pricing, and the different aspects that I think a lot of retail loan officers just don't realize that you give up a lot. You get a big brand, you get technology, you get a process. They'll teach and train you how to fill one role, and that's just your seat in sales.

But educating yourself on the entire mortgage banking process and all the different aspects of it, I think is it's, it takes time to learn. But once you learn it and you see the value in it, it's a powerful, powerful tool. Wow. And then what you said is powerful. And actually, I remember 2019 when I met you at the AIM conference and you were like, I don't know about the independent channel. I personally had to bring up Matt Isbia to talk to you and go, join these guys.

Like you were just, you were like a rock. You did, you didn't. You were closed off. You were very reluctant to enter the independent channel. And what is it really like, like, what's the misnomer that you've been fed in the retail channel, like to basically make you avoid entering the wholesale channel? Because it was like you were brainwash and we had to like unbrainwash you from retail to understand wholesale, right? And that's something I hear that they do in retail pretty frequently.

Like they don't like you to even think about us. So, you know, what held you back so long from going retail to wholesale? I remember meeting Matt Ishbia. I took a lot of notes in that conference, but I was already going down that channel. I don't think I was standoffish in that. I knew I was going down that channel. But I think it's, it is interesting when I think back on my time at Lone Depot, Rocket, Lending Tree. It was definitely when you're immersed in a culture that is branded in a specific way,

like you're working for a direct lender. We have a great brand. We have great technology. We have great leadership. This is our process. This is what we do. Then you start drinking, you know, might sound kind of dumb. Lechie, yeah.

cliche, but you're drinking the Kool-Aid. And I truly thought this was the best way to operate. If I'm going to be in the mortgage industry, I'm going to work for a direct lender. I'm going to work for a big brand. This is the best way to operate. and you start feeding yourself that narrative and you're not willing to actually open up and understand some of the things you're giving up

for going down that channel. And so I think in 2019, it really started to open up my eyes. I'm looking at pricing and I'm like, oh my God, like, wait, we're like 300, 400 bips better in pricing. We have all this different optionalities. I can control my lead flow. I can control this. And that's when I would say the,

the light bulb went off. I remember, yeah, just barely starting out at e-mortgage and then knowing what the marketing spend was at Loan Depot, we were spending about $19 million a month on aggregate leads, or $19 million in overall marketing budget, about $13 million on aggregate leads. And so I knew the cost-per-funded loan, so I automatically kind of applied the proper marketing budget. And I hadn't originated loans in eight years. I don't know if you know that.

Wow. I was, as far as like selling a client, hey, you know, here's your rates and fees. I'm going to send you your e-sign, your docs, get them signed, send it back. I hadn't done that in like, you know, eight years. And so it was a wake-up call for me, but I knew the strategy. I knew we had solid pricing. I knew I could create a process for it. And, yeah, I think my second full funding month, it was 29 loans.

Yeah, you came in at EMC. You were killing it. a top at low within a few months. But you didn't actually start originating until you learned everything. You didn't want to even talk to a client until you understood everything. What was it? Like, why did you hold back so long before you hit the ground? I mean, when you hit the ground, you dominated.

But why did you hold back so long? That's a style that you have in educating yourself. You just were fully educated on the independent channel. what do you think held you back from that yeah i i wanted to learn and understand it i wanted to know that i was giving my clients like a good product a good service i knew what i was talking about right um so i think that that kind of played into just trying to learn i mean i it's it's funny because it's like i had been in the industry for almost 17 years but then i go into the wholesale side and I'm like, I know nothing. Like, I literally know nothing. I was like, what wholesale

lender? I remember, I would, I would, in the beginning, I wouldn't even say, uh, UWM. I would say UMW. I was like, what, what's that lender that everyone's using? Um, W. And I like, um, so it was just a, it was a, um, it was just a completely different experience. I was lucky enough when we were in Nate's office, Holly Brand, R.J. Hartnett, Chasen, and Brian Zada. There was four people in that little office. And kind of just pick their brains a little bit. Hey, what do I do here? What should I do here? Just started assembling all the information and trying to understand what everyone was doing. And then really once I formulated my strategy and then I just really ramp things up, you know, ramped up my marketing, all the metrics at Loan Depot that you're taught,

pulling credit on X amount, you know, staying on the phones, building relationships, overcoming objections, you know, just start closing deals. And then once, you know, once that process, I knew that was successful, you know, at least out that little small office in Tustin, a little 1400 square foot office and set up 14-dense. and just crushed it started you know going into it i think we did almost 4900 loans in 2020 and that was uh that's really was the catalyst to be able to kind of give me the capital the know-how and the confidence to uh break off you know we don't have to talk about the whole yeah you know you transition so this is your journey you were a top l o at rocket then you became

a top VP at LD, Loan Depot. Then you became a top loan officer at eMortgage Capital. And then you, I think you went back to originating a little bit at West Capital when you started? No. You went straight into leadership. Yeah, we were so busy. So top LO. Actually, no, that's not true.

I did originate a little bit under West Capital. Top LO, top, you know, sales VP for LD, then top LO, then top brand. at EMC, and then now you're the CEO of West Capital Lending, top recruiter for the company as well. How has your leadership style evolved in that, you know, from being a top L.O. All the way now to being the CEO, the man. You know, first off, I don't, I don't think I'm anything special. I truly don't. That's humility.

Getting more and more humble. I just, you know, what's the saying, you know, take care of people and they're going to take care you. And I think that's always been my approach is not trying to sell a client, you know, whatever the loan is. I'm trying to understand what they're going through, what their challenges are, and how can I help them? How can I put them in a better situation than they're currently in? And I think that if people feel like you're authentic and you're really truly trying to help them, they're going to want to do business with you. So I think from a loan officer standpoint, I've always had that mentality of, I'm not trying to sell anything.

I'm just trying to understand how can I help you? What's your situation and approach it that way? And I think people, you know, if you're just a salesman, they're going to smell you out. You don't care about them. You don't care about their family. You don't care about, you know, maybe you're paying off $50,000 in credit card debt. And they cry at night. They can't put their kids in a certain school or they, you know, whatever they're going through,

I would try to understand that as a loan officer. and really break that down and then solve the issue. And I think as far as the reason Westcap has grown in general, I think I understand what a lot of the challenges of loan officers and what they're going through and the frustration of being in a retail environment. And sometimes, you know, like when I'm joking around, like I'm putting in my PTO request and I'm like, oh, my God, is my VP or my EVP? And is he in a good mood?

Is he in a bad mood? Like not being able to take time off, not being able to control. so many different aspects, I can empathize and relate to what they're going through and what their environment is and how, if they follow my direction and they trust me, that they can make a successful transition into doing something that they have a little bit more control. And so I think just those different aspects of being a great loan officer, a great sales manager, a great VP, it's understanding your people and taking care of them. And if you do, it's going to pay you tenfold, but you can't expect anything in return. You know, it might give, you might not get anything in return, but what I've found if you give,

you're going to get tenfold in return. What principles do you think are the most effective for team management? I think listening. I mean, maybe that's just a very basic trait. No, it's very true. I think so many sales leaders are top salespeople, they just want to talk, talk. And, you know, I think you just, when you listen to what people's needs are, what they're going through, then you can understand and how to be able to apply the right strategy.

So I would say my leadership style is understand your client, understand your loan officer, understand the situation, listen more than you talk. and that usually leads to building a relationship someone. And I think that that's what this business is all about in mortgage. It's all about building relationships, right? I think you're great at that. You know, there's some people that I've worked with that, you know, like, okay, they're a loan officer or whoever, they leave the company,

but they're all frustrated, they're all upset. You've maintained a good relationship with me, right? We have some back and forth, but I think it's building relationship and listening, I would say, are maybe the two highest qualities. That's awesome. And that's really, you know, I would say one of your strong is you've got great relationships with everybody that you worked with and you continue to maintain them, preserve them. How are, like, what do you think you're doing that a lot of the people who are listening now

aren't doing, you know, like to, because people stick with you. You know, they're diehard Danny. How do you get them? I'm very lucky. I have great people. No, I think that they trust me, and I think that they know that it comes from a good place. It's like... Genuine.

It's genuine. I care about them. I care about their family. You can't fake that. I want them to succeed. So, I don't know. That's just... That's what it is.

Love it. Love it. You know, a lot of people are listening right now. Like, they're facing challenges right now. It's like, what are some of the challenges you faced when you started the company? Because people are listening. They're like, I want to start a company. I want to be like, Danny.

But it's... not for everybody. It's really not. And I always tell people like, it's better for you at this point in time to join one of the mega companies because you don't want to go through what we went through. But talk to people about some of the challenges you face in the beginning and, you know, how you were able to overcome them. Yeah, I'll be honest, man. It is, I got a lot of respect for, you know, seeing what e-mortgage is done and just growing as big as you can. Just the compliance challenges, the interactions, the technology changes. There's just so many different things.

Licensing, just understanding the laws for all these different states and the requirements, it's a lot to take on. I joke around, I'm saying, like, man, being like a VP, like a producing loan officer with a team of loan officers is like the best job. That is the best job. It is all day. I truly. I mean, I want that.

job. You don't worry about all the headaches of running a company, all the personnel issues, the compliance issues, the regulatory issues, the expectations of loan officers and trying to do all these different things to solve. You're literally problem solving all day long, right? And it's exhausting. And I think, so yeah, I think that just there's so many different challenges. It's hard to be able to explain on starting a company. and I see these big mega brokers. I'll say both of us are kind of in that category of being a mega broker.

And you have to offer a lot, right? You have to have a good platform and a good offering, you know, multiple states, multiple lenders, processing options, technology options, know-how, leadership, events, camaraderie. There's a lot that kind of goes into it. So kudos to the people that are listening that are willing to go through that and start their own company,

but I can tell you the road is not easy, and I would say it's better to, like for me, scrapping my idea of starting out on my own and then starting at e-mortgage was a wise decision for me, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. And I tell people now it's even harder, because how are you going to get a footprint in 35 states? How are you going to deal with the regulators doing these multi-state exams?

How are you going to deal with the tech stack? the implementation and offering training and coaching. I mean, we've spent millions and millions of dollars building out this ecosystem for people just to plug into for free. Yeah. For free, you know. And we've poured blood, sweat, tears, sacrificed families, our time with our families, you know, issues, I'm sure that we face in our marriages just because we want to put

in the work for these people just to, you know, bear the fruit. It really is true. It's a, it's tireless hours and. thought and strategy, implementation, money, failures. And I think that loan officers that are choosing to come into this channel really should think about what they want. You know, it's not just being, you know, owning your own company and having full control over everything.

It's like there's a healthy balance of responsibilities and what to take on. and then what is best to let a larger corporate infrastructure take on. I totally agree with that. Now, you've seen so much success between Rocket and then Loan Depot, and then EMC, and then now West Capital Lending. Now, what trends are you seeing in the near future, like in terms of compliance or technology or whatever it is, and how are you preparing to adopt to those trends that are happening right now?

Well, I think my biggest trends that I'm seeing is just the challenges and changes with compliance, communication, texting, the 10-DLC and the TCR registry and the DNC express consent, the whole aggregate lead game. We don't know how that's going to get impacted by, you know, you could previously buy a Lending Tree lead and one click of a button saying I'm acknowledging to anyone, and everyone that can call me and it's a list of like 300 different lenders. Now it's, the laws are changing and consumers are, you know, the idea I think is consumers are going to be protected more and their rights. And I think that that impacts our ability on how we're going to contact our clients. And so I, I would say, are you seeing changes with the aggregators, like lending tree free rate update? Not yet. Not yet. But that's one of the reasons why I think Westcap is we're doubling down on social. We're doubling down on different marketing strategies

outside because I don't know what the impact is really going to be with the changes to the aggregators. Have any of the aggregators expressly told you that things are going to be changing with the... Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we have a business consultant that was the previous CMO and Chief Marketing's Officer at Mr. Cooper and at Penny Mac. And so, he's been involved in a lot of these meetings and seeing what the changes are happening in the industry and it's happening, you know, probably in the next six months there's going to be a lot of changes. What is he told you?

He is explaining that, you know, the idea that, let's say for us, like we love aggregate leads. We know how to convert it. We have the process around it. It's extremely profitable. But, you know, you spend $25 or $30 for a lead, right? And then four or five different lenders are going to get the money. that information. And so that process is going to change. It's going to require that the consumer

is going to have to click to consent to each independent company for them to be able to contact them. And so once that happens, how is a consumer going to want to really click on each independent, I want e-mortgage to call me, I want Loan Depot to call me, I want a Meritave to call me, right? it's going to change how that strategy works and what the bid prices are going to be for leads and just the whole, it's going to just change. So I don't know that, I don't know the extent of the impact, but I guess I'm preparing that it's going to have an impact. It's going to change the way that we kind of do business.

And we're going to have to be open to different marketing strategies. So it's always, you know, I feel like marketing is a game of cat mouse. it's really a game of can't mouse. Like we figured, we, just when we thought as a company that we figured it out, boom,

regulators come at us with something else and we got to change everything else. Oh yeah. It's, it's something that, I wish there was just a straight road to success, right? There's just not. No.

And the great thing about you and the great thing about leaders in general is we just figure out how to pivot. And pivoting is just in our DNA. Yeah. It's just in our DNA. And I know, and I am certain that you're going to figure out how to pivot with whatever regulations put in front of you.

And if not, we're just going to brainstorm together. We'll figure it out. You know, that's the beautiful thing about our relationship, right? That's a beautiful thing about, you know, collaborating with other leaders. So, and that's why I appreciate you. And that's why, you know, you're like, Joe, what? You're going to have me on the show. Like, there's so much controversy about this show.

Like, no, the reality is, you know, we win together. Like, there's plenty of market share for everybody. but the relationship that you and I have, that's priceless. Yeah, we go tick for tack every now and then. But, no, I think that what's the saying? It's like it's an abundance mindset. Yeah, that's it. There's enough loan officers to go around.

There's enough business to be obtained for everyone to be able to win. if you're going to consistently poke the finger and lose a relationship over, you know, one person or this or that, you know, sometimes you tick me off every now and then or, you know. But it's, yeah, I would rather have close relationships with various business leaders. And, you know, it's, I think, you know, that's kind of one of the things that I think that you guys are kind of lucky in a little bit in the UWM camp is, I think that there's a collaboration with some of these different lenders. I think Rocket is doing a good job. Fouaz is a great leader.

He's leading the channel and he's really putting more of these masterminds events together. Yeah, he's trying to circle. Because it really is important. It's like you don't know what you don't know until you, you know, like you collaborate. You collaborate or you hit a landmine. If I can share that information to six other people that, hey, look, I hit this landmine, right? you've had the issues with Washington. I've had some unlicensed activity.

You know, there's various things that if you share and collaborate, you can make better decisions for your company and for your loan officers. And so, yeah, I respect the relationship with you. And I want to continue to get to know other leaders in the industry that are in wholesale because I don't know everything by any means. I'm learning every single day. and there's been people that have been in this channel a lot longer than I have. And so I want to talk to them.

I want to hear their horror stories. They're, you know, hey, I tried this and this didn't work. The success and the failures, yeah. Hey, make sure this is in your contract. Hey, make sure your vendor agreement is this. There's so many little landmines that you can, you know, encounter that someone, just a five-minute conversation, they might help you out. Yeah, I mean, and the collaboration is priceless because I personally always say I don't know anything.

And I'm always a student. I'm seeking mentorship. I don't care if it's from you, the janitor, our marketing team. Like, you know, I'm always going to maintain a student mentality. And, you know, that's something I think you and I share, you know, and it maybe is because of our roots, you know. One thing, what would you say to someone who's coming into the mortgage industry right now in this, like, really hyper. regulated market where there's a lot of uncertainty and they're a new LO. What kind of advice would you give someone coming into the mortgage industry right now?

Well, I think the best advice is align yourself with great people, associate yourself with people that are successful, understand their strategy, what they're doing, what their process is, study them just like you study your chemistry book. You read it, you understand it, you watch it, you're immersed in that. And I think that it's very difficult to just kind of come into something and just think that you're going to just figure it out on your own, right? It's better to, you know, a lot of the things that we've done at West Cap, you know, some of the things I've taken from your playbook, some have taken from other companies, and the idea of collaborating and bolting on all these different good ideas. So if I'm a loan officer, I'm new to the industry.

I'm going to figure out where are the best loan officers? What are they doing? What is their process? What is their marketing strategy? What lenders are they using? What is their daily activities? How much time are they doing it? And I'm going to do my best to emulate someone and their process before I start to blaze my own trail.

And then on the personal side, I just think there is this grit and mentality that you have to have when you're in mortgage. And it's something that's very difficult. You can't teach someone. Some people just give up easy. And they're going to, you know, they just don't have the drive, the grit, the intensity. You know, they get told no 10 times and now they're defeated. Now they're going to take a two-hour lunch and they're not going to. It's like I'm very persistent.

I'm going to continuously push, push, push, push, push, until I get the end results. And I think if you're new in this business, you have to realize that it's going to take a lot of hard work and a lot of grit and a lot of intensity and then applying that to following leaders and mentors that are more successful than you and understanding what their strategy is

and emulating and following them before you start to think that you can just do it on your own. That's awesome advice, awesome advice. And I hope those who are listening right now, immediately implement that if you're even debating coming to the space. Now, I like to end the podcast with this question with every one of our guests, okay? What is a personal goal that you have? What is a family goal that you have and what is a business goal that you have for West Cap this year? Well, my business goal is I want to fund more loans than NXA.

by the end of the year. Okay. I really think they have 2,300 loan officers. We have about 500. I feel like with... I think we're both on that same goal. Like, Mike, we're coming for you. Both of us.

And not because I have anything against NXA. It's just, hey, look, if there's a number one, I'm competitive. I want to chase that number one, and I want to figure out how to be able to beat them. And we want to do more business than you. And I love that about us. You know, I text Andy Newman every day.

I'm beating you on the charts today. So, yeah, I would say that's one of my business goals is, and really, it's not just number one for me. I feel like there's a value to all of our loan officers, right? If we can say, hey, we're the number one lender mortgage broker in the country, right? That's a selling tactic for them to be able to go out there and have credibility and confidence in their brand. And so I want that for them, not just for me. From a family goal, yeah, I think for the, the last three, four years, I've been grinding really hard. You know, I think it's fun to, you know, I want to

spend more time with family. I want to have less phone time. You know, sometimes my wife reminds me, it's like, you know, if you're going to come home, you've got to be the best version of yourself. And sometimes I'm not, right? You know, you get beat up at work, and then the calls still come, the tech still come and I'm finding myself I'm still on my phone I'm still working and I'm a home so you know I have a suggestion for that and Matt Isbis says this he says when he gets home he puts his phone on airplane mode that's probably the smartest thing I put it I hate probably once a week I put it in the drawer and I leave it in that one drawer don't touch it don't look at it and I like that that idea of airplane yeah I've been I can't even look at it because it's like

you know at our level it's like if i'm away from my phone for an hour it's like i got like 30 text i know i know you know and there's always a problem to solve so you got to figure out how to so i i would say that's my personal goal is continue to build on a great relationship with my wife we've been together for 26 years actually bless you guys out 26 years ago today valentine's day married up definitely married up for sure um so yeah better relationship at home continue to spend more time with the kids, take them and show them different things. We have a trip to Costa Rica planned in April. That's awesome.

We were in Florida. I think that, you know, your kids are only young for so long. You want to give them all these memories and experiences. And so I think that that's my personal goals. And then what was the other one? Well, that's your family goal. Then your own personal goal. Your own personal growth goal.

Well, I think I've given a lot to the company and consistently double down and to get us to where we are. And now I feel like it's finally starting to turn. So I'm starting wanting to like, okay, you know, you hear about mortgage companies that don't make money or, you know, this company lost $400 million or this company went out of business. It's like I feel like I've laid the infrastructure for myself. So my goal is to start paying myself a little bit more so that I can invest and do the things that I wanted to do. wanted to build this house for a long time. I've been sitting on it because I've put time. You still haven't built? Yeah. It's sitting. Got a dirt lot in Yorba Linda and I'm hoping at some point that I can, we've been in the same house for 12 years now and I think it's time to have a little

bit more space with a growing family. So that's definitely the goal. I'd say to build the house and start to pull back from the investment in Westcap over the last couple of years. You deserve it, man. Danny, it was such a blessing to have you on the show. And those of you who are watching this show are like, I didn't expect it to go down like that, you know, but that's how it goes down amongst friends, guys. That's how it goes down. I appreciate you.

Thank you so much for coming on the show. God bless you. God bless your business. Always remember, I'm coming for you. I want to beat you, and I'm sure you want to do the same. Let's go.