Coffeez with Joe Shalaby - Dominating the Marketing Industry ft. Erik Huberman | Coffeez for Closers with Joe Shalaby Ep. 28

Episode Date: July 19, 2024

Erik Huberman is the founder and CEO of Hawke Media, a leading marketing agency valued at over $150 million. Recognized for his entrepreneurial success, Erik has been featured in Forbes' 30 Under 30, Inc. Magazine’s Top 25 Marketing Influencers, and CSQ’s 40 Under 40. He also co-founded Hawke Ventures, a venture capital fund, and authored "The Hawke Method." Under his leadership, Hawke Media has helped over 4,700 brands and remains one of the fastest-growing agencies in the U.S. For More Check Out our Playlist: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgPwyhl8CkXiM0cBtuY8A_6JS60FueLz3&si=0_2dnoPkYV6jcSGw Check Us Out on all Platforms!Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/coffeez-for-closers-with-joe-shalaby/id1726674707 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2KkQWRqHSHcCK3TVfsRKUK?si=hjTnUOjFS5eTDxBjgf4RwQ&preview=none Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Coffeez-Closers-Joe-Shalaby/dp/B0CRYLQRW6 Coffeez and Closers Socials & WebsiteWebsite: https://coffeezforclosers.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/coffeezpod/ TikTok: https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbnU0T3RrLXdPbC1BR2NLc2lWcExqWklQaHlQUXxBQ3Jtc0tudi1GV2Zod3hRYzRhTkhONFBuMlptblNGSlJ1QzhpV0tzbHh5YThNR0R3Y2RnNnU5NV9ER3E5ZUhxMjdUUWp1UWo4MVl6Q2szeXo1cFh1OHNkYkxDR1F0MXZtMTZ6QnZoakdzSnJpVl9PcWZBOU9zZw&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tiktok.com%2F%40coffeezforclosers&v=uXvk6LY9lS8 Facebook: https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqa2pLZ2pMaUxmSTh4dy1qazMtdlBjX2pVN1AxQXxBQ3Jtc0tua2RUTUNsRmJob0RKWlVqeDhNaUN4US1rdlRvUG9Fdm5SNk1jU1pQNzNLQnVmUmtGMGTMYUViZ2pLMXJkOVJUci1kMk9DN2poTThVV2NFd0tISWdDMzNwOEZ2c3pVb09lbEhjemJHblRsS1RKdHZqbw&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpeople%2FCoffeez-for-Closers-with-Joe-Shalaby%2F61556355642488%2F&v=uXvk6LY9lS8 Joe Shalaby SocialsInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/josephshalaby/ TikTok: https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqa3p6VlRzR1BWMkJQM1ZIaUdVZHhYVTYyak43QXxBQ3Jtc0tuUXVBOE1oZUJYTmZIZnNENUgxQkhjamk4RXJHb09MWU9OczJhLWpnX0JwN2pENzRhaV9NajJROW5nek1tQ1VvVE40ZFJuUUI2cnI0ajNKLXE4d1VMUUpkTGFHR0tGY0o5NUhnWnZnaXJoZXdEM0piaw&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tiktok.com%2F%40josephshalaby&v=uXvk6LY9lS8 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/josephshalaby E Mortgage Capital Socials & WebsiteInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/emortgagecapital/ Website: https://www.emortgagecapital.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Emortgagecap #1 Mortgage Company on Social on 🌎 #1 Non Delegated Lender in the Country🌟#1 Broker in CANMLS #1416824"Mortgages Are What We Do Not Who We Are"™https://finance.yahoo.com/news/learn-why-e-mortgage-capital-192000740.htmlAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

What's up, everybody. Welcome to another episode of coffees for closers. Today's guest is a true visionary in the marketing industry. Since founding his company in 2014, it has skyrocketed to a valuation of $150 million assisting more than 3,000 brands, including giants like Red Bull, Verizon, Casa Migos, Eddie Bauer. his company has grown from a small team to over 150 employees, earning spots on the Inc. 5,000 list of fastest growing companies and winning multiple Stevie Awards for Company of the Year. He's also a recognized industry leader named in Forbes 30 under 30 and 40 under 40. Not to mention, he is one of Inc. Magazine's top 25 marketing influencers.

Beyond Hawk Media, he established a venture fund that raised $25 million to support tech ventures and develop the groundbreaking AI tool that has aided over 5,000 companies in improving their marketing. Join me in welcoming. Eric Huberman, the founder and CEO of Hawk Media. I feel like I have to come out in like a robe and some boxing gloves on, like ready to go. Let's go, baby. That's that. Welcome. Welcome to the show.

for making the drive out here. I know you're here local in L.A. and I appreciate the effort that it took to come out here. It's been great to meet you and like dive deep deep into, you know, your vision with this book. And before I talk about this book, I got one question to ask you because I do want to talk about, I know you're doing a run on the book, because I like to ask every founder and CEO that comes on this show is what is your morning routine?

I like it. My morning routine is non-existent. And I like to share that because I think there's all this like, you know, collateral out there. Like I wake up at 3 a.m. and the Mark Wahlberg morning routine. And for me, it's like, honestly, these days, it's I wake up, grab my daughter out of her crib who's almost two years old, bring her back to bed and hang out with her for a good 15, 20 minutes. And then get up probably, you know, do the typical brush my teeth, get ready, go eat breakfast with her and start my day. You know, it's not like this big baked, a Infrared sauna, workout, et cetera. I work out in the middle of the day usually. I like that better.

Or at the end of the day after I put her down. And then that's, yeah, it's not that complicated. And I think sometimes we overcomplicate things that for some people

that's super important. I think some people really get a lot of the morning routine. For me, it was just never really that necessary. Nice, nice. And I know like your new father, I mean,

you're still embracing that. So you're still at one kid. Yeah. Any plans for a couple more? 100%. Nice. How many do you want to stop at? We're saying two or three.

So we're going to have another one and then we'll see what happens. Yeah, yeah. Actually, after two, the third, the fourth, it just gets easier. That's right here. So we'll see, you know, and so far we love it. So we're not. It's the best thing ever. We're never saying never.

Who knows? Maybe after three, we're like, ah, let's just keep going. Yeah, yeah. Actually, I have four. Yeah. And I tell my wife, I'm like, I can go for five. I can go for six. I can go, you know, like, she's like, no, we're done at four.

That's the thing is it takes two of us. So we'll see how that goes to. We're done at four, honey. So let's talk about the Hawk Methods. So what can readers expect? And by the way, is this available on Audible? Yeah, it's on Audible. It's actually a childhood friend of my cousins that has the most amazing voice ever.

So I was like, who do I want to read this? I was like, that guy, Glenn Steinbaum. So it's a really fun Audible, actually. He's got this booming voice. He does like NFL commercials and stuff. And then, yeah, this book, we actually watched it two years ago. And so it's not necessarily that I'm on a book tour. It's just what I did was I took 10 years of building marketing for thousands of brands

and distill it down into like modern marketing 101. So when it comes to like anyone that wants to dabble on this, it's looking for like, how does this marketing thing work? We just put it in a book that's an easy read that literally, I've been with my wife 10 years. She read the book in two hours and was like, oh, I get what you do now. She's like a master's in biology.

She's a partner in private equity. Like she's super talented and super bright. And this book finally, after living with me for years, this is what helped her go, oh, I get it. I get marketing. So it solved that problem in a lot of ways. So we just always put it on the forefront of like, this is what we do. So do you just simplify.

like dumb down marketing. So people can expect, but, and this is, this is still relative in, given AI, given social media. Working on RAA tool

that you mentioned, Hawk AI, eight years ago. So we've been in the AI space long before was the hype train and everyone was talking about it. So like, we talk about AI and how it's going to affect marketing

in this book that was written three years ago. So we, and it has, it's done exactly what we knew what it would do. So like, thankfully it was predictable how AI would play out. Now, has AI, when you talked about in this book, what did you say about in this book?

Yeah, that AI quickly would replace anything that is logic-driven. So you're going to start seeing lawyers, accountants, anyone that, like, anything that you can just plug in, if this happens and this happens, it's going to be replaced. And any type of easy jobs, like you're seeing the robotics replacing ordering in McDonald's, all that stuff is where it starts. And it goes from blue collar jobs with robotics to white collar with, again, legal and accounting to then creative. we see now is creative seems to be the more innovative driven side of the business. So there's been more attempts to innovate AI on creative side, but you have things like what's called mid-journey that are really interesting, but like you're not using AI to create creative yet. There's an opportunity to get there, but it's going to take a lot long time because creative production

has so much more nuance that to teach AI to do that in a way that's actually productive is going to take a lot longer. And that's what we talk about in the book is like the parts of my job in my business that'll be replaced faster are the analytical parts, the decision-making parts that are data-driven. And that's what we built Hawk AI around was digesting 8,000 companies, marketing, media, and revenue data in real-time so we can actually educate AI on this is what good looks like, this is what bad looks like, and then plug in an individual company and go, where do we need to fix this? And so it can quickly go, these are the three things that are going wrong, fix these, and the company's going to do a lot better. Wow. I didn't know that, like,

AI like was a, you know, catchphrase three years ago, but it wasn't really implemented. I was using it as like kind of like part of my marketing technology. It wasn't true AI like it is. It didn't have logic like it does now. Yep. And what is Hawk AI? Yeah, so that's it. That's the digestion of all that data.

And it's actually like automated marketing strategy. So it's literally watching thousands and thousands of companies marketing. So it can look at an individual company and make decisions on that based on how the market's moving and tell you exactly where you. the opportunity is in that business. So it helps our team or other heads of marketing and marketing practitioners go, what should I spend my time on that's going to make the most money for this business? What should I fix? What's broken? All those kind of things. And now, how did you become, like, the marketer for the stars, you know, like, how did you become, you know, George Clooney's marketer and Celebrity Brand Whisper was a new headline that I got? Yeah, it was, how did that start?

You know, it actually, where it started was my two companies ago had a T-shirt subscription company called Swag of the Month. And I got introduced to a guy, I don't know if he'd want to be named, so I won't name him, but a guy at one of the big talent agencies that's been an amazing friend for since then. This has been 13 years now. And we had this idea that if we get a celebrity name on our T-shirt company, it'll go way bigger. And so I started working with them on these deals, and we never got someone. We talked to all sorts of big DJs and celebrities at the time, and they all wanted too much, or we didn't have the money. And we never ended up doing a deal, but I stayed in touch with him. So when he saw me build and sell that company, so when I started Hawk, he was the first

one to reach out to say, like, hey, I have celebrities launching brands and they need what you do. Why don't we start looking at that? And so, like, the first year of Hawk, we started working with one of the bigger talent agencies on all their celebrity brands. And then from there, it just grew and we kept going down to that. What year was that? I was 2014.

It was the first year of Hawk. Now, who's the biggest celebrity you're currently working with? I mean, it's like George Clooney's up there. but and not directly, obviously. Like, he's got, it's Casamigos. They've sold it. He's still involved, but, like, they have a whole team. I mean, we have a TV show on A&E in Hulu right now called Kings of Barbecue,

where I'm helping Cedric the entertainer and Anthony Anderson launch their barbecue brand, AC Barbecue. But there's, it's a long list. Like, we have, I think, about 25 to 30 celebrity brands right now. I remember interviewing you in Las Vegas and you had mentioned, like, the celebrity's role is much more important because, they have to be involved in the actual decision making. They can't just be, oh, this is George Clooney,

and he would slap his face on there. George is one of my favorite examples, because it wasn't about exactly slapping his face on. He, like, hosted buyers from the supermarkets at his meals for dinner to get them to buy Casamigos. So it's like, that's where the impact happens. Like, we used to talk to the celebrities we worked with, and we still do.

We talk about, like, them posting it on social. That's a sugar rush. You'll get a quick bump, sure, but, like, you don't, it doesn't go anywhere. from there. There's no sustainability. The sustainability is that relationship. And getting them involved in like the relation, important relationships in those businesses is where you get the most success out of celebrity brands. And that's why, like, you see The Rock or Ryan Reynolds doing really well, is they're in it. Jessica Alba with Honest

Company. They're actually working on the brand. They're invested in those brands legitimately like their own money. They're working on it. They're not just like, here, take my face and go run with it. That doesn't work. No, it doesn't. I mean, like, are you working with The Rock as well? No. Just George Clooney. And I love that you're working with Cedric the Newtina.

I'm a big fan. No, Marr's on Salveray, his rum company, and a few others. So you are the celebrity brand whisper. A lot in that space. Yeah, you are. You're like the guy that they're, because these guys aren't, you know, marketers. They're not like, they're. Hawk Media, we just built a model with our business that works for those.

It works for all these brands because it's like, we're, plug in play, we have the team ready to go, we can plug in exactly what's needed for the brand and take out what's not. It's all Alec Hart, so it's really flexible. So, like, we can look at what a celebrity has or needs and just plug right in. And so it's the, you know, and we're in L.A. I mean, there is a factor that, like, I'm in L.A. I know all these guys at CAA and WME and UTA and all the big talent agencies. So we're on their radar. And so a lot of times we're going to get the phone call too. That's amazing. Now, what year did you become an entrepreneur? I'd say

1993. 93. So how old are you then? So what'd you start doing when you were six? My dad got me hooked on the idea of making money, and so I stole a bunch of my parents' stuff, put it in a trash bag and tried to sell it door to door. I was like, they don't need this stuff anymore, and I need to make money.

And when I say stole their stuff, it was like a golf ball, you know, like a clothing hanger, like some random stuff that I just like, Yeah, that looks like trash to them, but I bet I could get someone else to buy it. That was a one-day effort, but two years later, I wanted an electric guitar. I actually wanted to be a musician. I wanted to be a rock star was my goal as a kid. I told my dad I needed an electric guitar, and his response was great, get a fucking job.

I was like, okay. So I started selling lemonade and flowers on the side of the road, and after, I think, 10 days of that, I made like $14. And I was like, this isn't going to, I needed like $150. Like, this is going to take way too long. I can't do this. And so I pivoted. I started buying and selling Beanie Babies. And I was able to make, at eight years old, I made like $3,000, $4,000 selling Beanie babies.

And that was... In a year, you made $3,000 less than a year. It was quick. It was like right at the height peak. I had figured out what people would want. I was zero emotion about it. I didn't care about these things. It was like, why do people want to pay so much?

I don't care. It was like perfect. So I did that whole Beanie Baby craze, made a bunch of money, bought the guitar, bought a BMX, save money for a car. and that was all at eight years old. And then I pursued the music thing, about 12 realized I wasn't that good. All my friends started playing music at about 12 years old, and they were all better than me within a year,

and I'd been playing since I was four. And I was like, this isn't good. So I pivoted the idea and started talking about being in the music business, and then somewhere around 16, 17. I'm like, I like business. I'm going to focus on this entrepreneurial thing. Did you ever go to college? I went to Arizona, UVA.

Did you get like a master's degree, too? Sure. Just undergrad, business, had a blast. Super fun. Now, Hawk Media has 150 people. You're the founder seat. 220 now. 220. I think the valuation I read there, $150 million, but that was a couple years old, too. But the market's not gone so crazy that we've grown, but the valuations have come down, so it's probably similar. Probably similar. Why do you think the, so is it a big, you know, because we're in the finance industry.

Same economic variables impacted. Yeah. I mean, when you think about the buyer, as people buy companies and use leverage, when leverage gets more expensive, valuations come down. So, yeah, valuations. Like, I mean, 2021's where that valuation had,

like, things were ridiculous. And so we've grown since, but even with that growth, it's like the valuations have come, I mean, you've seen some tech companies have come down in 85, 90%. We haven't dropped that much, but we might, you know,

if we doubled our business, but shrank our evaluation by 50%, we're at the same place. Yeah. So are you guys, you guys focus on, on pretty much any vertical. Yeah.

There is no limitation on vertical. And we've had experience in pretty much everything. It's fun when people kind of play that game of like, what have you done? I had this yesterday. What have you done in agriculture? And we go into like five different agriculture companies. Okay, what have you done in medical? And we go into 10 of those.

And it's like, no, we've legitimately had success in about every industry at this point. And have you done the mortgage sector too? Yeah? Yeah. What do you do in the financial sector like when it comes to branding? Yeah, as I say, it's a lot of branding, a lot of, for me and what we do is a lot of, like, So the Hawk method, the three pillars of marketing, awareness, nurturing, and trust. Trust is a huge factor.

And so awareness, how do you introduce your company to new potential customer that didn't know you exist? Nurturing, what do you do when you first make that intro to actually get him to convert to be a customer and then post-purchase to keep coming back? Yeah. And trust, it's the part where people don't buy from a company they don't inherently trust and different companies require different levels of trust. Most financial services require quite a bit of trust.

And so it's a lot of third-party validation. It's a lot of content, a lot of PR, a lot of influencer marketing, a lot of testimonials, reviews, good branding, all that kind of stuff. Now, like a company like ours, where we have PR, we're doing influencer. We don't, like, I would love to get, you know, the Hawk method implemented. Additionally, I'm a big marketing guy too, and I love collaborating with other marketing visionaries. So it's good to see that, you know, you've kind of mastered that skill. But more importantly, like you're implementing all the recent innovations in marketing. Well, you mentioned the Venture Fund.

Like that we started investing out of the company into technology nine years ago, so a year into business, wasn't originally part of the plan, but I got a friend of mine came to me and said, hey, we're, we want you to be an investor. And I said, I'm not investing in startups. I'm going to invest in real estate, actually, was my plan because I like the stable asset of real estate with the volatility of a marketing agency creating cash flow. And he said, no, no, no, I'm not asking you if you're going to invest. I said, you're investing.

You just can, it can be a small check, but you're going to be an investor in my company. I was like, all right, fine. put money in, that company's worth $3 to $5 billion now. And I was like, okay, I need to not be so stubborn about this and maybe take this seriously. So we started investing in tech companies. And so now we've invested in almost 100 marketing tech and e-commerce tech companies are all the tools and softwares and innovations that we use. And the theory there was similar to why I started building Hawk AI eight years ago,

I'd rather be a partner and owner in the companies that'll disrupt what I do and change what I do than a competitor. So let's not fight the tide of like things are shifting. what we do will change. They might not have as much of a need for the way we do things. So why don't we just be fully embedded with all the things that are changing and be a part of them and win with them versus try to fight the tide, which is a learning I had when my first company out of college was in the music industry. The music industry has always fought their own innovation.

So they resisted the tape from the record player. They resisted the CD. They resisted online and streaming music. And so you end up with, because of the tape. of that, like, why doesn't UMG or Capital Records or one of them own iTunes or own Spotify? Because they resisted change. And so those other guys end up doing it. In my sense, I was like, well, let's not do that in my industry. Why don't we just, as things are disrupting, be a part of them. So you are invested in multiple disruptors in the marketing space.

Many, yeah, about 100. Wow. And then like a big portion, small percentage. Yeah, I mean, anywhere between 1 and 10% of the companies, usually. That's amazing. So all these disruptors are now partners. Yeah. And you know some of it. Like Clavio, the email software that went public this year. PostScript is the top SMS marketing platform in ecom now.

Tapcarts like the top mobile partner to Shopify. Like some really, really solid winners now because it's been nine years. We've got a track record and some of these have matured. Yeah. I mean, when you were investing in some of these platforms, you probably were like, these are risky or some of them. I mean, some of them, sure went belly up. Some went, you know. Yeah, I saw a post the other day that I love the line.

It was like, you know, they say the lottery is a tax on the poor. Well, Angel investing is a tax on the rich. So it's just like, yeah, I mean, there's plenty that have gone belly up. There's plenty losses. But, you know, like most things in business, it's about being right 51% of the time. No, you can't always be right. You'll never make a decision. An angel investing, it's like you're wrong 80% of the time.

But that won, I mean, my first bet, small check would pay for all. I haven't cashed out yet. But if I did pay for every other angel, check ever written. Yeah, every single one. And then here you are, you got 100. How many have actually worked out? Clavio, I mean, everyone knows Clavio. I'd have to look. I mean, I don't actually have that hard number, to be honest. Man, that's amazing that you've been. Net were way up. So we raised, the thing is, I angel invested in seven companies. We then raised a $5 million fund and then a $20 million fund. The first seven, I think at least three of them have

been super successful. And that's why we decided to raise a fund. The first fund is three to four X right now of what we invest in. We have plenty of growth left. It's not that old. And then fund two is just getting started. So it's hard to tell. I love that you're a man of vision. Like where do you think that the vision is inspired from? I think it's just a full dedication to wanting to grow and build this thing. Like I just like it's fun. It's a game. Like, thankfully, like, from year one in Hawk, Hawk is a bootstrap company. We never raised money. We never took outside capital.

We have no debt. So year one, my bills were paid. Like, I was used to making minimum wage and stuff. And, like, so my personal lifestyle, my wife, my kid, like, we're fine. And so this isn't about, like, how do I pad my bank account? This is how do I dominate the marketing world? How do I really, like, build something big? And so I think the game of it gets you kind of fully engrossed in, like, the excitement of, like,

what can I do? What's coming? How do I build this? and the long-term look requires long-term vision. Because if I'd assume I'm going to be doing this a decade from now, well, what does a decade from now look like? You start thinking about it, you start reading about it. That's where the AI thing came in.

I knew eight years ago I'd still be doing this now. Well, what does eight years from now look like? Well, I found Ray Kurzweil, who was one of the biggest thought leaders in AI, he became the head of AI at Google. And he had a timeline that said at the beginning of 2023, we will reach a point where computers will process fast enough that we'll be able to mimic AI. It won't be true artificial intelligence.

which is true, it's not, but it will look like that. People will interact with it as if it's AI. In Chad GPT watched, what, November of 22? That was predicted in 2013. So the accuracy was insane, but that's all, I studied him. I studied a few others. And I'm like, this is all I have to go off of. So let's just assume that's right.

It kind of goes with the same thing going forward. It's like you can only just, you look at all the different predictions out there. You make your own assessment and go, okay, I think that's what's coming. And then what does that mean for us? And then frankly, good leadership team that bounces back ideas to me, good advisors. We've had these group of unofficial advisors for quite a while at the company that now I'm making it official and creating

an advisory board because I ran down the path. We buy a lot of agencies. That's been a big part of our growth and we haven't even announced it yet but we closed our 14th acquisition last week and we should close our 15th today. And because of those,

I was doing this part of the business and I was talking to one of my advisors and he told me about the deal structure and how we're doing and he goes, wait no, this seems like an insane way to grow your business. Like this is not just like, oh, that's a good idea. You should do that. He's like, you should invest all of your money into this. And in the next four year, sorry, he's like in the next two to three years, I think you could four X your company. And we're already pretty big as we've talked about. So it was like, and it was one of those like, I thought it was great. But when he said that, I was like, you're right. And he's like, you should go. And so

I went back to the team that was doing and said, this is the new goal. We're going to five X the amount of M&A we did last year. We're going to do 20 acquisitions in 2024. How do we do that? And they came back to me with a plan. It made sense. And now we're right on track. And it's like that is, but it did take the outside push too of like, oh, shit, you're right. Like I'm just in the weeds sometimes. And like, thankfully I had this conversation with a really bright advisor that went, wait, wait, wait, say that again. Like, what are you doing? Holy shit. Go do more of that. And here we are. Wow. I mean, the amount of vision that you have for a marketing agency, and no wonder you're dominating the marketing space. Thank you. It's been fun. Yeah. It's, it's, and, you know, where do you think,

So you kind of predicted the last eight years, and you were spot on with following the gentleman at Google with his AI predictions. Like, where do you think we're going to be at in 10 years? Well, so the predictions play out through 2029 where they believe that 2029 is when artificial intelligence really becomes artificial intelligence. And at that point, it's really hard for anyone to predict because it, you know, my vision of Hawk AI was, as we get to this point in AI, and as we get to 2029, 2030, if I have the data and information and education to teach AI how to optimize marketing, I can own that AI node and be the marketing AI. Like, they're not,

I will have a competitive advantage because here's the problem with a Google or Facebook or one of these other guys using it is Google is never going to tell you to not spend money on Google and spend money on Facebook. So there's not an impartial approach to this or, you know, an objective approach to like, where should you spend your money? Where should you, how should you use? It's all bias. For us, it's not.

And so we just have the data. So that is how I've looked at my strategic advantage. But I mean, this can get into a much bigger philosophical conversation. But I believe I'm more of a utopian when it comes to AI. I think that it's going to do what other technologies did, which is free people up from doing shit that they don't need to do anymore. And it's going to allow a huge amount of economic expansion. And it's going to allow people to actually focus on higher and best use. And the only people that are going to get hurt by it are the people that refuse to pivot.

Like as truck drive, like it's not happening anywhere near. And also, there's an important part. human adoption is super slow. So technology might get there in 2029, 2030, but how many people are using it and getting away from their old habits? That'll take time. It kind of goes with the driverless trucks thing. By 2025, it was predicted we would have no more truck drivers. And instead, in 2024, we're in a truck driver shortage. So I don't think that it happens as fast as people think. That being said, there will be a point where we won't need truck drivers. And those truck drivers are going to have to figure out what is their new job in this new paradigm because for the past, you know, millennia, we've had jobs become obsolete. because of innovation. This is just another case of that. Internet did the same thing, but I've heard the story. When Adobe Photoshop came out, there were a bunch of headlines that said, that's the end of the art director. We won't need art directors because we have Photoshop. We can just do it ourselves in Photoshop. And then it comes down to, but are you really going to do it yourself? Or you're going to hire an art director, and art directors are doing fine. So it's like how it plays out as hard to predict,

but I do think it's actually just going to open up more opportunity, not less. We're seeing that now in our space where people are using, but what we're seeing in the mortgage sector is those who are going to use AI are just going to basically take the jobs of those who don't. So there's going to be massive margin compression. Yes. And then there's going to be massive, you know, omission of other agents because AI can now enable people to do a lot more work. But if you play that out, let's say there's massive margin compression, which means cost

come down and revenue comes down because of that. Let's just say that's what happens there. Whoever is spending that money before now has free cash flow. What does that free cash flow go to instead? Is it more growth? Is it more expansion? People don't, like, yes, certain levels of rich people do just sit on money and look at places to play with it.

But businesses don't. Businesses take profits and reinvest in further growth and try to expand more. And so when we find ways to save costs because of AI, I think that's just getting invested in other things over time. Yeah, yeah. Now, kind of pivoting back to, you know, like, your, like, you're, you're, you know, like, you're your entrepreneurial state. You have a lot of top talent at your organization.

How is how is Hock Media continuing to foster talent? It's a good question. Well, actually, I can go into something super controversial. We've had some great talent that's been with us a long time. And then we went remote in 2020 when COVID hit. And we found for three years, once looking back, Our best performers, or a lot of them, there's been exceptions to this role. There's some great people we've been able to pick up during COVID, but for the most part,

our senior leaders and the highest performers were people that were in the office with us prior to. And so we've actually started a process of all new hires and new trainees coming into an office. And we've built a new office out in L.A. and an office in Boise, office in Chicago, office in Nashville, to start bringing people back in, because I've realized that that is an important part. It's not a micromanagement thing. It's just simple stuff, like, while you're sitting there, and I was laughing with a sales guy that we've had for a long time the other day because he's like, oh, hey, quick question. He asked me about a sales process thing, and I coached him real quick, and he walked.

He's like, that was awesome, actually. Thank you. And walked down. I'm like, but you see, like, you weren't setting a slack about that. You weren't setting time on my calendar to ask me that. But because I'm sitting here, you walked in real quick and asked me a question. Like, that little detail is hyper impactful over the course of years. And so I've realized that that to foster talent.

like being in person's a big part. And then honestly, I've learned also the Google perks, as I like to call them, the, like, random, the food, the, you know, massage Fridays, all the stuff that we had to pre-COVID. And, you know, we paid for kombucha and cold brew on tap. No one cares about that shit. Like, they'd rather you just put the money in their pocket, the extra five bucks a person you're spending so they can go buy their own coffee. Like, those perks are BS.

People want to make good money and have a job they enjoy. And like that's how you like really like make it aligned, make yourself accountable, make sure that they like the job, get the right people for the job. Like I've found setting expectations up front before they come in is super important. And then in terms of fostering, I, it's really hard on us. You're expanding. Like it's easy for us because we're always doing new things that if we have the right type of people, which again goes in the hiring process, there's always new exciting things happening every day. And it is a volatile work environment. And if you're the type of person that likes that, you thrive at Hawk.

and that's why we have a lot of people that have been with us for a very long time. But my favorite interview question is, would you rather be overwhelmed or bored? It's not a test. It's very important because at Hawk, you're going to balance between normal and overwhelmed. There's no boredom at Hawk. There's not enough time in the day to do everything you need to do. And some people want one or the other. There's plenty of people that take a government job, they'd much rather be bored and then sometimes

working versus working all the time and sometimes overworking. But I'm the type of. person that I hate being bored. It's the worst thing I can be. So I would rather be fully loaded all the time, hence our tight schedule today. Exactly. Yeah. You know, what I noticed, like, listening to is Hawk has taken some pretty big risk to become Hawk. Now, how important is taking big risk for Hawk? I think it's calculated risk, because I think, like, I never bet the farm. I think that's the, like, fallacy and entrepreneurship is like, and don't get wrong, people like Ewan Musk have bet the farm.

And there are people that have taken huge risks just crossing their fingers. And I just, I've never felt that way. Hence, the lack of debt, the lack of outside investment and stuff like that is I think we can take calculated risk that the mistake will never cripple the company. We just might make less money. That's how I look at risk. Because like, I never want to get to the point where like I'm having to tell my people why I have to shut down the business because I made a stupid decision that didn't work out.

But God forbid we are profited as a net high because I tried a bunch of things that didn't work. Yeah. Now, like, if you were to go back in time with building Hawk media and seeing all the success you've already had, what is it you think you would change about what you've built with Hawk? The remote things, one, I really like, like, and a lot of us are back in the office, and I just love being with the team. I think that's one. I also, there's a fallacy, a lot of entrepreneurs tell themselves of the idea of like, oh, I'll just build an executive team and they'll run the company for me and I'll hang out on the beach. and like that doesn't exist.

You are always, like, it's your business. And I made some mistakes trying to get there too, like trying to get my team where it's like, oh, they're all managing that and I don't have to want. Like they're good. I trust them. They're good. And you realize like not in a like a malicious way, but your team will never care as much as you do. Because if my one of my senior executives, if the company fails, their worst case scenarios, they have to go get another job. And they're all talented.

They'll get another job. That is their worst case scenario. For me, this is my life. I've poured everything into this. Like, if this fails, it's a lot worse than I just go get another job. And from a psychological perspective and a practical perspective. So, um, you publish more books? Totally.

Your bestseller. Tons of money because this definitely did not make me money. Um, and so we, uh, and so knowing that, I think it's really important to kind of get to terms with the idea of like, you are going to outwork everyone if you want to build something. You're always going to be the one that, everything falls on you until the day you are out, you are in. And what I mean by out is you literally hire a CEO and go, I don't care anymore because it's not just about hiring someone.

It's also like they might screw it up. So you got to just be out. You have to sell the thing or something. And that is the only way there's a finish line like that. There's not a finish line of like, I've got this great exec team that just makes it so I don't have to work. That doesn't exist. And so someone has to take the burden of ownership.

And if you're not going to do it, your team's not going to do it. it's you got to someone has to have that that was a big warning that happened the biggest part of that happened a couple years ago that was I thought I was at that point and then it crumbled at a few bad executives and I was like okay like back to reality same advisor that told me to focus on the m&A stuff at that time said sounds like you had a nice vacation get the fuck back to work like thank you exactly what I needed to hear and I didn't actually have a vacation it was just I thought I could focus on growth and not focus on the day to day and you know trust the rest and It's not the case. Trust but verify is a big part of this. And understand, and I, what do we remind

myself all the time, I'm the one to drive this. I'm the one to set goals. I'm the one to push because most people will default to doing something that's super achievable, especially when they're working for someone else. The incentive is misaligned. So it's easier to grow at 20% a year than 40. So unless I say we're growing at 40 or 50 or 100, they're going to default to what they think is acceptable and enough to keep their job and be exciting enough. And I'm not saying, again, these are not bad people. These are very talented people do all do this because the incentive isn't there. Why would they want to put that much more in? I mean, you're talking about some astronomical numbers. You want to grow at like 50% a year, year over year for the next three, four years.

Yep. How do you put those kind of barometers in place? I mean, the way I did it when we first started was I drew a thermometer on the border and said, we're going to do one, two and a half, five, ten million, the next four years. And my team was like, so where'd that come from? I don't know. I want to do it. Let's figure it out. And what I found is it does work that way.

So if you think about it this way, if you set the goal for the year one at a million dollars and you're tracking at 800 grand, you step on the gas, you do what you can. You're like, shit, we're behind. We've got to go do more. If you set on that same path, if you set the goal at 500 grand and you're doing 800 grand, you're like, oh, we're good. well, chill. And you might end at 7.50. And so the idea is setting goals, like people in the practical environment, like setting those goals actually forces people to think through how many

hit this. And I watched it happen again this year because the past two years were a lot slower in our industry and a lot slower in the economy in general. And so I actually took our foot off the gas on growth because it was not cost effective, but us focus on profit. This year, I'm like, we're back to growth. And I set some goals that everyone's like, how are we going to do that? And then we hit them all two months early. And I was like, yeah. And again, what was, and they're all laughing now because they get it. Like, now the proof is there. And these are people I've worked with a long time now in our leadership.

But I'm like, you see, if you just aim for it, you actually can come close. Obviously, you have to now work backwards and do the work and put in the process. But it's like as simple as if it takes one salesperson to sell a million dollars in sales, then it takes two to sell two. If I tell you the goal is one, you hire one. If I tell you the goal is two, you hire two. Like, it's that simple kind of strategy side of things that when the bar is set at a certain level, you manage to it. Now, the risk there is if you set it too high, if I said we're going to grow 300% this year,

they might go spend a ton of money and try to hit it. And then if we fall short, we might be underwater. So you have to also be practical with what can I afford to spend and what can I afford to invest in this to actually get there because growth is also expensive. You don't spend the money today and make the money today. And so you have to be practical about that too. But figuring out that balance is where I sit, so to speak. I love that you have a B-Hag, a big, hairy, audacious goal every single time. That's why I do this. There's no other reason I'm doing this. I can sell this tomorrow and retire.

It's not about my personal wealth. It's like, I want to dominate the marketing world. I want to be, I want this to be a massive, you know, big, successful, the best at what we do, company, period. Love it. Let me ask you this. Like, running a company where, you know, you're so busy, what, where, where do you draw that inspiration from to continue this perpetual drive. I love the question because I think we all see the social media posts of the people that are

always grinding, always on, you know, the Hermotcies of the world or who I love as Rob Deerdeck, like they have this engine. Again, I'm Mark Wahlberg. I will say from experience, when things are going well and you're seeing the feedback cycle of that work producing, it is easy to find the energy. Like when I know that I'm going to go on this trip and I'm going to meet these people and it's going to be impactful, I'm going to go meet you at an event in Vegas that I flew in for the day, meet a ton of great people, meet you, end up on this podcast, get more visibility,

and all these fun things are happening that are feeding that positive cycle, you wake up every morning ready to go. When that gets hit the other way, and that happened, again, we hit some hard times a couple years ago where I was like caught off guard with our executive team and then the economy and all that, like all of a sudden, everything that had worked for eight years felt like it just went backwards. When that happens, getting up in the morning is really hard. Getting the motivation is really hard, and you've kind of got to practice a discipline of just

doing it at that point. And that, if, if that lasts, and that lasted for me a year. So, like, that can last a while, but you have to have some level of optimism that it's going to get better. And then you have to start seeing that. And then it's easy to start going again. Like, when I started seeing things improving again and started seeing that the work was actually worth it, and that things were going to turn around and things were going to be good, then you get the motivation back. But for a little while, there's discipline has to meet motivation too, where it's just like, it's not always going to be rosy. There's no company in existence that's always been up into the right and everything's always good and there's never a hiccup. And so what

you need is the discipline to get through the hard times because the good times are they care of themselves. Excellent. Excellent. I mean, this is incredible advice, amazing nuggets that you're kind of feeding the audience here. And it's been incredible to kind of see, you know, how you've transcended into this like mega marketing media platform. What do you, what do you think the future holds for your company? And where do you intend to take this thing? Yeah, marketing world domination. It's very clear, but, you know, again, we're expanding a lot this year. We've done a lot of M&A. We've, we actually just hired a CEO for our Hawk AI, so that's going to expand fast now because we brought in a very seasoned, amazing CEO that we can have someone that's going to pay the proper attention

to it because it's been more of an internal tool, which is great. It makes Hawk Media better, but now it's like time to take this to market and go big with it. The fund, we've got, you know, another $10 million or so to invest in companies, so we're investing in tons, and we just did, we just invested in a company called HeatMap, a company called Ship Insurance, a company called Pentane, and that was all three last month. We're looking at a few deals this month. Do you're marketing for these guys? No, not necessarily. They're complementary software. So Pentane's a financial management for e-commerce that we really love, that it teaches people how to look at their marketing

financially in the proper way. And so we've been trying to coach people on this forever, but they think we're biased. We're like here. Marketing financial? Yeah. I think I need that. Yeah, it's amazing. It talks about contribution margins. So it's like people conflate their fixed costs and their variable costs a lot. And so they'll look at like, oh, well, I'm spending too much money a month. So cut advertising. And it's like, that's the last thing you should cut. Then there goes your revenue too.

But you can only lead a horse to water. So now we have a platform that can actually educate people on that. And then heatmap.com is amazing. It's just heat mapping for websites. But it's just like the way this guy has built it. He's brilliant. He comes from customer experience for years and years and years. And like it's basically the AI approach to how to optimize websites.

and love the tool. So it's those kind of things that we're constantly finding that new innovation that we can then implement into the company and go from there. And so expanding Hawk, expanding the venture side and growing. That's what's fun. That venture fund seems amazing. It's been good. It's like, because you got your ear to the ground with the latest and greatest.

Yeah, and we only invest in what we know. We invest in the tool. We literally our diligence is cool tool. Here's a team. Use it. Put it on some brands. Let's see if it works. If they like it, we like it and everyone's happy.

Now we can invest. it's actually kind of a simple idea, but no other VC does it because no other VC has Hawk Media. Yeah, I mean, like I'd like to be in on that, you know, because you actually get a bunch of people to pilot the product. Exactly. And then we become a market maker because we turn our sales team into their sales team because now we're like, now we offer heat mapping for your site. Sales team go ahead and sell this. All our clients use it and we have 500 active clients right now. So we're, we can put it away make the market for them and off to the races. So, you know, I've found that adopting technology and being a market maker is the easiest way to, like, you know, implement and see technology through and through and kind of, I can, you know, I saw there's a couple technology companies here where we, you know, help them be a market maker within our own ecosystem. And I feel like that's the best way to be a VC.

When that's the other side of it, too, is because we do that, inherently Hawk Media becomes a, a super innovative company because we're constantly looking at what are the new technologies out there that we should be implementing to make companies better. And my thesis was, I think companies win on technology and marketing now more than they do in creative. I think creative's iterative. You can try a bunch of different stuff and see what works, but technologies where you're actually find efficiency. And so heat map is an example. I can now optimize someone's website perfectly for an inexpensive product and using AI and do it really quickly that you couldn't do before. So now I can optimize a site. I can also ship insure. What do we add for the e-commerce side? Shipping insurance is straight

to the bottom-line profit. So like there's no cost. So add shipping insurance and boom, they just make more money because people want to insure their shipments. Like then you have, you know, again, Pentane. Like, if our clients can manage their finances better, they're going to grow with us better. They're going to do better. Like, this is important. Those are the kind of things that were, Clavio is obvious. Cuevio, like nobody had a good, easy-to-use email tool for e-commerce. Same thing with PostScript. No one had SMS identified. Tap cart.

Mobile apps used to cost 100 grand. Spend one up for 100 bucks. All these things are like, these are the innovations you need in your business. Let's introduce them. Now we're the best partner you could be in marketing. Oh, and we also own all these innovations. That's fun. It's amazing.

That's amazing. Okay, so I got a couple last questions. Just kind of adjourn. What are some of the hobbies you like? What do you do for fun? Grining all day? You can't just grind all day. Since becoming dad, I was a complete hobby junkie.

That's what gave. Like, work actually stayed pretty consistent, but I gave up a lot of hobbies just because my main hobby I'd say is my daughter at this point. But I'm diehard snowboarder. That hasn't given up at all. She actually was snowboarding before she was walking, so got to do that. But I became a pilot right before she was born. I like flying airplanes.

But Red Say really consistently now. Exercise. I just signed up for my first triathlon, but I'm always trying to find like a new physical thing to keep me like working out really helps keep my sanity um as well as uh travel love going and visiting new places checking off new countries checking out the world kind of thing and daughter's been on like 28 flights ready i-fi about 70 times a year that's awesome and still play music i just started taking piano lessons but i played guitar since i was eight or sorry since i was four still play not still not that good but i still play uh what's it what's your favorite quote favorite quote

one I've said a lot recently because it's a reminder I needed during that time I had to kind of keep the disappointing grit is work like most won't so you can live like most can't. I don't know who said it, but it's not me, but I read it somewhere and it just stuck the quote, not the source. I usually like to give credit, but like work like most won't so you can live like most can't is a testament to entrepreneurship. I think it's the idea here. And it's a reminder that it's going to take hard work. You have to commit. You have to be okay with sacrifice. going to work at night, you're going to work weekends, you're going to have times where you

want to put it down and you can't because you got shit to do. But you're also that should unlock a lifestyle that is like most can't ever imagine. And that is, that's the point. If not, get a stable job. Don't go home. My stepdad used to say this to me, who was also an entrepreneur, he's like, you know, it's not so bad to go home and go to sleep at night and be done. Like working for a company and having been making a good paycheck, there is a beauty to it. And depending on how you're built, that's why most people are employees, and I think that's great. But for the people that want to dedicate more of their life to work and want to put in that work, you can live a lot better way.

Love it. And then what's the best piece of advice you've ever received? Swing the bat, go for it, everything, just do it. Like, we talk, like, in hindsight, this all seems brilliant of like, you have a venture fund, you have a AI tool. Like, that was just like, and you have a marketing agency that's grown. It's like, that started with a room this big, with a table in the middle and I was consulting and then I went, I need to hire some people to help me.

And then it was seven people. And then we had some money. So we started investing in stuff. And we made mistakes. And it's like you just, it starts with one step in one foot in front of the other. And then you realize, don't do that again. That was a mistake. We wasted millions of dollars before you figured out how to build hockey. We've invested in companies that have failed and learned from that. It's like all these things happen. But you just keep going. And it's from the first day, the first idea, the first thing you want to do, go do it. Stop talking. you know, unless talking helps you be accountable, because that's what I do sometimes. I'll be like, I'm going to go do this. I said that on a podcast, I better deliver. Exactly. Exactly. I'm going, I told everyone I'm going to do this.

I better actually do it now that I like about talking about it. But then you got to go do it. Yeah. That's the most important thing. And then you're going to miss. You're going to screw up. You're going to fail. It's okay.

Keep going. Love it. Now, another question I have. If you were 20 years old, how would you build wealth right now? I was 20 years old. How would it build wealth right now? Oh, I think there's so much get rich. quick bullshit and it's like just start putting a hundred bucks or whatever that is let's say it's

a hundred dollars a month in the smpf 500 and just start letting things accrue because compounding interest is the best you know is what's wasted on the youth like yeah i thankfully have been doing it for i don't know 10 years now but like i that was 27 i wish i started at 20 because that'd be another seven years which honestly with the rates of increase would be my money would be double just with that seven year gap yeah so it's like yeah just start putting it away compounding and don't take don't angel invest, don't take big risk. My view is spend your time on things that are risky. And like I include my, what do you call it?

My venture fund into it because it's not a massive piece of my wealth. It's a small piece of my wealth that is high risk, high reward. Most of your money that you make should be in low risk compounding interest, whether that's credit, whether that's S&B 500, whether that's, you know, treasury yields right now. Real estate's a good one, but you won't get there for a while. but like do stuff that like the money's it's about stability and what do you call it preservation not massive pops like crypto and all this stuff like yes I get it some people will make a lot of money in crypto a lot of people have lost a lot of money in crypto too you can take little bets on that but most of your money should be in stuff that just compounds over the years and grows and grows because you're going to wake up one day and go holy shit look at like by nature like the smp 500 your money should double every like eight years seven eight years so like that's that's significant if you're putting a hundred bucks a month in overtime and it's a growing. It's real money.

And I'm just saying it for someone just getting started, just a small job, you know, skip a couple meals out and do that. That's the right start. It's not going to pay off anything now, but 20 years from out of matter. And when you're 20, you're like, when I'm 40, who gives a shit? And then you turn 40. I'm 37. And you go, oh, like, I should have done that.

I should have really done that. Yeah. I got a couple last question before you during here. Do you think college is important now for kids? I think it depends. I don't just mean that from an education. perspective, like, I'm glad I went to college because I needed the social aspect. I grew up in a small town. My graduating class from high school is 11. Like, I need to go be social and be out there and

have fun for four years. And the education side was whatever, frankly, like, it was business. I thankfully grew up around a lot of business. Dad was an entrepreneur and all that. So, like, wasn't that educational, but I needed the social aspect. I needed time to grow up. I wasn't going to, if I just went to work at 18, I don't think, I think I would have been way less successful. So, like, it was almost that time period that I needed. Obviously, there's a lot of vocations that you actually need the education, engineering, medical, you know, there's any sciences. There, you need that. But I think it's individualized. I think everybody loves to make blanket statements. And I would say, I'm going to make a blanket statement. But anyone that makes planting

blanket statements is probably an idiot. Because the end of the day, I think that there's, it depends on the person. Mark Zuckerberg didn't need college. Steve Jobs didn't need college. other people do. I think Warren Buffett went. It's like some people work. Some people doesn't. I think, you know, assuming the same path as everyone else is a great way to not do very well.

So figuring out your own path and why it makes sense for you is important. That being said, the way college is charging now is absurd. I would never touch student loans. That whole thing, that is a racket. The whole student loan thing, the fact that it's the only loan that you can't bankrupt out of is absurd.

Like, they're giving loans to 18-year-olds that don't know anything about finances. and they're coming out like, this isn't a problem of like, it's predatory. It's like, it's literally the only financing that you can't bankrupt. Let them bankrupt out of it. Now the companies are going to be a little more choosy with who they gave loans to. But yeah, if you're talking about, I can just give you a loan and never worry about you paying it back because you'll pay it back to your fucking grave.

Like, that's ridiculous. Yeah. That part of college really bugs me. But the actual education component or the time in the four years, I think there's actually a lot of value there. I agree. I agree. But, you know, now with AI, I don't know how disrupted it's going to be.

be. Totally. I mean, that's the thing is the access to information is going to be immediate now with almost everything that it's going to be how we teach college is going to have to pivot. And frankly, universities haven't shown that they're very good at that. So it might, the way university sits now might not be a thing. But a time from 18 to 21 to like grow up and kind of ease into adulthood, there's something to be said there for a lot of kids. I was one of them. Some don't need it. Some do. Last question, two last questions here is it's a, it's a, Three-prong question. What's a personal goal that you have for yourself, a family goal that you have for the family and a business goal that you have for hot? Sure. Personal goal complete the triathlon this year and learn piano. Those are the two goals I said this year. And I also got super involved in like longevity and health stuff. I don't drink alcohol, coffee, sorry. I don't drink caffeine, alcohol, or sugar. Don't consume added sugar really anymore. So that's part of that whole journey. Family goal. That's a good question.

I should probably spend more time on this. But honestly, just enjoying each other right now. Like, I think the finding the balance and I think we're getting pretty close where it's like, I want to do have a professional goals and family goals not conflict with each other. How do I do it all? Because I do want to be a, and so far I think it's been pretty good. I want to be a very present dad and husband and while building something crazy. And some, most people don't find that balance.

And then on the professional side, marketing world domination, really easy answer. I want to take over the marketing world. I love it, man. You're doing amazing. One last goal, because we all have to deal with this, is when you're in front of the pearly gates, what do you think God's going to tell you? You did it. The thing that drives me more than anything that feeds into that is I'm not that religious,

but I'm also very agnostic. I think denying that there's a God is as ridiculous as saying there absolutely is, unless you've had your own personal experiences. And so I'm saying if someone tells me they're atheist, I'm like, you're making this. it's like one second side of the same argument. So it's, but for me,

this might be the only time I get on this planet. And so I look at that as I want to maximize every experience and everything I get out of this, personally, professionally, family, all of it. And so I, that is what drives me.

So that's why that feeds in is like, I think by the end of my life, whenever that is, it's going to be like, wow, I really did try to everything, did everything. That is my life goal.

I love it. Hey, you've been an absolute pleasure to have on this show. Thank you so much. Thank you for all you do. I hope you get all your goals and keep dominating. Thanks, man. Thanks for having me.

All right, cool. It's been awesome. All right, thanks. Copies for closers. Eric Kuberman, make sure you read the Hawk method. Thank you guys for watching.