Coffeez with Joe Shalaby - How to Lead in Your Industry ft. Desmond Smith | Coffeez for Closers with Joe Shalaby Ep. 23

Episode Date: June 14, 2024

Desmond P. Smith serves as the Chief Growth Officer at United Wholesale Mortgage (UWM), where he focuses on advancing the independent mortgage broker channel through innovative strategies.With over 30 years of experience at prominent institutions like FHA, Wells Fargo, JPMorgan Chase, Citi, Capital One Home Loans, and Fannie Mae, Desmond has a track record of creating high-performance cultures and transforming businesses.At Fannie Mae, he reorganized customer teams, resulting in record volumes, great returns, and top-tier NPS scores.Joining UWM in 2021, Desmond leverages his extensive background to help UWM achieve its ambitious goal of growing its broker channel from less than 20% to 33% of the overall market share.For More Check Out our Playlist: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgPwyhl8CkXiM0cBtuY8A_6JS60FueLz3&si=0_2dnoPkYV6jcSGwCheck Us Out on all Platforms!Coffeez and Closers Socials & WebsiteWebsite: https://coffeezforclosers.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/coffeezpod/TikTok: https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbnU0T3RrLXdPbC1BR2NLc2lWcExqWklQaHlQUXxBQ3Jtc0tudi1GV2Zod3hRYzRhTkhONFBuMlptblNGSlJ1QzhpV0tzbHh5YThNR0R3Y2RnNnU5NV9ER3E5ZUhxMjdUUWp1UWo4MVl6Q2szeXo1cFh1OHNkYkxDR1F0MXZtMTZ6QnZoakdzSnJpVl9PcWZBOU9zZw&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tiktok.com%2F%40coffeezforclosers&v=uXvk6LY9lS8Facebook: Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

What's up everybody? Welcome to another special episode of copies for closers. Today I am sitting down with Mr. Desmond Smith, the chief growth officer at UWM. This guy is an absolute powerhouse in the industry. Very, very well known, very well respected. Desmond Smith was the chief customer officer at Fannie Mae. He's brought so many new initiatives and has already made a huge impact in the mortgage industry in just a very short period of time. We welcome Mr. Desmond Smith.

Desmond, thank you for popping on today. Thank you for having me, Joe. We're taking coffees on tour, so, you know, I was excited. I was actually envisioning, I'm going to have Desmond on the show, and I didn't even really know if I was going to get you, but, you know, after you're on, next is Durant.

I'm going to try to get Durant. Listen, you don't ask you don't get, so let's go. Yeah, exactly. I'm just going, you know. I go big or I go home, so that's how I do it. Desmond, you know, a lot of people are really just getting introduce to you. So we're going to dive into who you are. But what I like to start to show out with is like, because I know you're big on fitness. I know you're big on your health. I know you're

big on morning routines. So I open up with everybody. What's your morning routine? So Monday through Friday, I get up somewhere between 4.30 and 4.45 every day. Every day. No matter what time I go to bed, and I'm not a person who sleeps well. So sometimes you get three hours, hopefully you get five or six but 430 to 445 I have a cup of coffee and within 15 minutes of that I'm in the gym right Monday through Friday it's my routine because even when I don't want to go when you're done you feel great and so a person like me I need to go to the gym for my mind right that's how I that's how I decompress or get the even you say decompress and or get the day started and if I don't go or in the morning and then it's like three o'clock and I'm like oh I should go to the gym the whole day to

me is thinking about going to the gym and then if I don't go feel like the whole day's ruined so I'm I'm a I'm a gym person I go in the morning 430 445 I'm up have a cup of coffee and I'm in the gym and you are you going to the gym at UWM I don't go to the gym at UWM I did doing COVID but now you know it's a little further so I like to go to the gym by my house come home shower and and then go to work. So, and, you know, I do I go when I could bring my stuff and leave a shoe or I left a sock, just easier for me. I just go home, shower, change, and go to work.

Now, how many years you've been in the mortgage industry? 33 years. 33 years. 33 years. 1991. Yeah, I started, was in between my freshman and sophomore year in college. I started working for FHA as a summer job. And I always joke and say, I got my ID while I was in college.

college and so I still pretty sure the youngest de underwriter I don't remember my number now but that's how I started yeah so you start off as an underwriter started off as an underwriter yes so off as an underwriter who told you to get in the mortgage industry I didn't I didn't had no desire to be in the mortgage business if my mother was sitting here she'd say he always wanted to be a corporate attorney but I ended up in the mortgage business because it was a summer job working for FHA my dad worked the government printing office, his good friend, Bud Carter, worked at FHA. They hired each other's kid. Next thing I know, you know, I'm learning about how to underwrite loans. I'm learning about FHA 203Ks. And now 33 years later,

I'm still doing mortgages. Never done anything else in my life. You are a foremost expert. You know what's fascinating is like you've been in the government sector. And I personally don't know people that were in the government sector, but now it's even more interesting because you started as an FHA underwriter in like your early 20s. Yeah. Well, I was 19. I was 19. You became an FHA

DE underwriter at 19 years old? Yeah, because I was in college and I was trained in that. I grew up in D.C. outside of D.C. And so I, you know, when I went to school in Boston, I came home for the summer, I worked for FHA headquarters. So I sat

in the office with the chief architect who taught me FHA 203K. And then the next office over with the two chief underwriters who taught me credit. Wow. Randomly, right? I've never, my life growing up thought I'd be in the mortgage business. I'm sure I didn't even understand what it was. I guess we lived in a house, I guess we had a

mortgage, but it was never any, you know, never really thought process. Oh, I want to be a, you know, a mortgage person. Never even thought of it. So you worked at FHA and then you transitioned to Fannie Mae? No, no, no. I worked at FHA for two summers and then I, you know, work during the school year at FHA in Boston and I was joking I quickly realized at least for me I wanted to make a lot of money so I went in the sales I graduated college I went to end up working for northwest mortgage which became Wells Fargo spent 10 years there ran big businesses like private mortgage banking new construction non-prime lending they said stay there 10 years went to jp morgan chase for nearly five I ran all of retail so both there's

centralized and distributed retail, stayed there, said almost five, went to Citibank, was there five and a half years, ran the entire mortgage business for the bank, had correspondent lending in all retail, never did wholesale, spent a little short time at Capital One, and then that's how I ended up at Fannie Mae after Capital One. I spent four and a half years as the chief customer officer at Fannie Mae. Chief customer officer at Fannie Mae. What year was that?

So I was in Fannie Mae from 2016. until I joined UWM in 2021. And I remember when you joined it, it was such a big deal, and it was such a big win for the broker community at large. Well, you know what I will say about that, you know, you spent 25 years doing retail.

You truly believe in your soul. Retail is the only way, and that wholesale is bad. I mean, I've told many people have heard my story. I really didn't believe wholesale was fraudulent. I believe wholesale, if you did, the money may or may not show up.

It just was unscrupulous people. I mean, that's what I believe. There really was unscrupulous people. And up until, you know, Dodd-Frank. Yeah, I mean, and then, you know, I'm biased because I work for UWM, but I do believe that UWM is the lender to change the gain for wholesale lending. There's all the good wholesale lenders out there. You'll never hear me talk negative about another wholesale lender.

But I think what UWM did was bring credibility and liquidity to wholesale. And obviously, we brought an absolute dedication. and devotion to client service, process, technology. And so through those things, you know, again, I always say I'm biased. There is no retail lender in the country that can compete with what you can offer them through your company, right? That's my opinion because if you're using UWM, again, you have process, you have technology, you have a dedication and devotion to client service, you have great pricing. And so, you know, my opinion is I don't understand why anyone stays in retail anymore.

I got it in the old days. But now, you know, even Humda, right? The government says if you go to a mortgage broker, on average that consumer was saved $9,400 over the life of loan. 9,0004, that's by the government. That's not about UWM. That's not about Joe at eMorgans. That's the government saying you're going to save $9,400, right? So it doesn't make any sense that folks go to retail lenders other than they've always done it that way.

And that's why hopefully this will help get the message out and make people understand. And I always say to people, at least have a conversation with a mortgage broker. Just have a conversation. Maybe you still go at retail. Okay. But at least you explore it all your options, right? And so that's kind of where we are. I mean, I think we just learned that 24.2% market share in wholesale and the full.

fourth quarter. So, you know, 76% still going to retail mind-boggling to me. It really is. It really is. And they're getting gouged. So tell, like, what is, like, the lies you were fed when you were at that, even at a high level in the retail channel? Well, it's not the lies that's fed. I was in retail, right? So you believe it. I mean, and there were stories, right? Everybody has a story pre-financial crisis of someone going to the closing table. and the money didn't show up, right? Or someone going to the closing table and they were thinking they were going to get a fixed rate and the documents showed up as an adjustable rate mortgage.

I mean, but that stuff is, you know, you're now 15 years ago from when that happened. But, you know, people have long memories. And if you haven't had an experience, a lot of people today still believe you need 20% down to buy a home, right? And so they talk to their grandparents or their uncle or their friends. Oh, my goodness. believe what happened to me 15 years ago, right? And so that's the big difference in that, you know, again, I'll start since I really learned about wholesale was when I went to Fannie 2017, 2016, 2017, you know, the data showed there was no major difference at all between retail

and wholesale, right? And so when you have the data showing that, still the message has to get out there. People have to be educated. And if you only have heard one thing your whole life, That's what you believe until someone else can show you facts. And you go, wow. And that's what I say to people. Okay, if your parents are telling you, talk to your bank. Okay, talk to your bank. I'm not going to tell you not to do that.

But also have a conversation with a mortgage broker. At least understand your options. And then make your decision. But making your decision based off of one data point, that's probably not good for the consumer either. Right. So I think a lot of this comes down to really about information and knowledge. and education. And like, you know, we just got to keep educating people.

What are some things that, you know, even me or other people listening to this show right now can do to start doing a better job of educating? Well, you know, I think a lot of times when you're having success, tell people, right? Facts are hard to run from. So I'm not talking about piling my chest, about how great that, you know, whatever it is.

But if you're having a success, give me an example. You know, the average submission to clear the clothes at UWM is under 14 days. Almost anybody I talk to thinks it's at least 30 days. So every time someone e-mortgage gets like clear to close in 12 days, 10 days, 15 days, tell, you know, post on social media, tell realtors, tell friends, because I think the thing, one part of social media, but the other part is when other people start talking about it. You remember when go back to, I always talk about pre-financial crisis, there was a time like in the 06, 07, everybody was in the mortgage business.

You go to a cocktail party. Oh, I do loans, right? And that was just the way it was back then. And then obviously the bottom fell out. We've got to get back to that point of when you're having success as a mortgage broker and you're closing loans. And I don't even care about closing loans fast because the customer might not want to close right now. But guess what? If you're clear to close, no stress, no worry.

and you say to that realtor, when you're ready, we're ready, right? It's powerful. And so I think we really got to share all the successes that we're continuing to have, you know, someone in retail is quoting someone, say, 7%, and you're going to get six and a half with a broker. That's the type of information we have to be out there. Those are facts, right? That's not me pontificating.

I'm showing to someone could have closed 13 days. Here's a, you know, L.E. at six and a half percent comparing it to someone retail at seven right those are the type of messages I think we just got to get out there and then from there in realtors and then obviously um consumers just at least get another option that's all I ask don't just go to retail okay again I'm not going to try to talk you out of having the conversation but just give us a shot give us an opportunity to have the conversation that's awesome you know Desmond you operate at such a high level and you've operated at such a high level for all these years. Like, who is it that inspires you? I mean, you sit next to Matt Isbiet every single day.

You know, where do you draw your source of inspiration? Yeah, you know, listen, I will tell you, Matt is a, you know, I got to give credit. You know, I used to say a guy by name of Mark Oman, who was the president of Northwest Mortgage when I worked there was the best mortgage mine. I think I'd say now he's the second best mortgage mind. Matt's the best because you know what he is? He's driven and he's passionate. Drive and passionate. to win and its driving passion to win is not for him it's for brokers yeah because you know if he helps brokers and brokers help consumers obviously UWM will grow so you know I would say you know I respect the hell out of Matt Ishpia and

then for me I've you know there's two people outside of the mortgage business that are just to me people I guess I say I hold in high regard one I've met few times because I worked for him and then the other is someone I've ever met Everybody kind of likes her. So on a kind of personal, non-professional, I'm the biggest Oprah Winfrey fan. I just think her message of always trying to lift people up is just, you know, I don't care who you are. There's never a time where if you're trying to help someone get the best out of themselves,

everybody shouldn't feel good, right? So I'm this big Oprah Winfrey fan. And then the other one is Jamie Diamond at JP Morgan Chase, right? I just think it's a business mind who's created, you know, probably the preemptory. global bank in the world and they're involved in so many different businesses. I don't think anyone should go to them for mortgages, right? To be honest, but I think just a guy who was driven, I remember working for and then coming in a meeting and he used to carry a piece of paper and it had to be folded over.

And on one side is things he owes people and on the other side is things people owe him. And I just thought it was always just a powerful way to, you know, ensure that you're always driving for your business. So for me, you know, obviously Yishbiyah comes to anything mortgage and his drive and his passion and then, you know, a personal is Oprah and then a business side, Jamie Diamond. So you worked with Jamie Diamond directly? Well, I didn't work for him directly, but I was in several meetings with him when I was there, right? He was very hands-on at the time, you know, it was talking about MSR evaluations and understanding the business. So I was probably in three or four meetings with him, right, where he was at the time learning the business

and trying to understand how the thing worked, right? So that's, you know, that goes by. I was there at 04 to 09, and I think it's right when, you know, Chase and Bike 1, it come together. So, yeah, around those times. Awesome. In mid-2000s. So you've been in the game for decades now, 33 years,

but you've just not been in the game. I mean, you've been in the game at a very, very high level. And one thing I admire about you is you're, you're the, the hardest working guy. You're one of the hardest working guys in the game. And that's to be expected because you're working hand in hand with Matt. But how do you have such a strong work ethic? Like, where did you develop that from? You know, I think at the end of the day, you know, we're all different. And I don't, some people, you know, what their priority is, as long as that's important to them, do it. For me, it's always been about being on a winning team. I came,

one of the reasons I came to UWM, you know, it's funny. I think about this. It was kind of, I said, one, you know, I wanted to work for a non-bank. There was three reasons. I wanted to work for a non-bank. I'd always work for big banks, right? I'd work for Wells Fargo. I'd work for Citibank. I'd work for Chase.

And I'd never work for a non-bank. And I really learned a lot about it, Fannie Bank. I want to work for non-bank. Number two, right, I wanted to play on a winning team. I wanted, and I mean by that is, I worked for banks. And mortgage was always pretty much a small piece. So I wanted to play on a team where every single day you knew what success was. Winning was being good, being the best in the mortgage business, right?

So that was number two for me, playing on a winning team. Number three was having a job where I had a seat at the table, right? And so I work with Matt Isbier every day, and he's playing the win, and we are doing things to try and ensure brokers win. Brokers win, we'll get more business. So it really, you have, I call it clarity of purpose. We're not trying to do appraisals. We're not trying to do title.

We're trying to do nothing else but mortgage business and make sure brokers can win. So, you know, that's just who I am as a person, right? That's why I get up early. That's why I go to the gym. You know, I hold myself to a very, very high standard for myself, right? I remember I've worked for Matt and a few other people I've worked for. I always have to worry ever about being disappointed in me because I will always be harder myself than anyone else ever is, right?

because I want to be, you know, call it ego, call it whatever you want. That's my driving purpose in life is to be a winner. And, you know, now you've got kids. So you want your kids to see that their dad works hard and their dad cares. And he gives it all like my son's always like, let's go in the gym together. I'm like, you're 10. You're going to slow down. I need you to get hurt, right?

But that's what he sees I want to do. So, you know, I think that's really is kind of the drive, right? It's just, you know, it's winning. Winning is important. How you instilling that in your kids? You know, my friends always say to me, oh, I know you want this for your kids. It's very simple for what I want for my kids. I want my kids to be two good people.

Two good people who give the society versus take. That's all I has, right? So my son loves football, my son loves basketball. And my thing to him is always, you know, he'll get down. He likes a wide receiver and get down. He misses a pass. I'm like, that's okay, buddy, right? You know, what can we do better?

What should we have done? You know, sometimes just things happen. But it's always, did you give you your effort? You give everything you got? You gave everything you got. That's all you can do, right? So all you can do is make sure you're given 100%. When you give 90 and you don't get the results, it's your fault, right?

I look in the mirror. So, again, I'm not this person beaten down on my kids. I just want to make sure that every day, in class, you're giving everything. You're trying as hard as you can try and you don't leave anything on the ground, right? So, yeah, I don't have any unrealist expectations. I'm always there to support them, right? I'm going to push. It wants to go out tomorrow and throw ball.

I'll throw the ball all day long with them, right? So it's just making sure that they know they're loved and that they know they're supported so that they can give their role and whatever they choose to do. When you transition from Fannie Mae to UWM, what do you think something like the biggest obstacles were when you made that transition? Well, I'd already been in a mortgage business.

So, you know, I think while people, who probably were at Fated Night that I think the world of had really been there their whole lives, right? That's what they knew. So I'd been in the primary market and went to the secondary market where I learned a ton, right? I learned a ton about capital markets, learned a ton about servicing, having a presentation of the board. So, you know, I think the biggest challenge was not so much going from Fannie to UWM because, you know, again, I just basically had the primary mortgage experience. I think it still was, there is a big difference in direct-to-consumer versus B-to-B, right, and just how you think.

You know, I remember getting here once and so on it's like, oh, yeah, we've got to get loans. And I'm thinking, I'm going to get loans. Who are we getting the loans from? Right. Because my mind was already, I got to get realtors and I get referral partners who will then send me consumers, who will do loans. So I think, you know, it was more about making sure I, understand B to B versus B to C and then how do you really move levers to go about building

and earning the business right and so I think that was I won't say difficult but it was it had to it had to kind of retrain the brain in terms of how you think and how do you get success right success for us at UWM is that the brokers are winning brokers are growing share right brokers are creating or giving the best client experience out there because they give the best client experience, they're going to get more referrals from their referral partners, right? And then they're going to get more referrals from their customers because they have such a great experience. So it was thinking about how to ensure that we're giving our broker partners every tool,

every resource, everything they need to do to be able to dominate and win in their local market. So, yeah, it took a minute to get there. But, you know, it wasn't much more of, it wasn't the understanding of what we do, got that. It was just how to make sure the things that I've done translate into wholesale. And that took a little bit of a time, but not too long. You've seen, like, a lot of success happened over the years in just a short period of time. You know, you came in in 2021 at UWM, Bull Market. Yeah.

Then you saw the crash at 2022. Yeah, in 2013. And then 2023. Now, like, what do you foresee in the next two years for the mortgage space? Well, look, we all know. I'm not, doesn't make me smart. Rates are coming down, right? And so how far do they go down?

I don't know. But rates will come down. We will have some type of refy. How big will it be? Don't know. How long will it be? Don't know. But what I worry about the most is I've had some conversation.

I was sharing this with one of someone out for success track. broker who's basically in 2020, 2021, didn't write one purchase deal, okay? Didn't write one. They absolutely changed their business model in 2022, 2022, they're doing phenomenal, right? In eight to ten purchases a month, they've built a great referral network. You know what the lady said to me? She goes, I cannot wait to stop doing purchases. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

You completely transition your business to be purchased. And now you just want to walk away. She goes, yeah, it's hard. I'm tired doing referral partners. So what you want to do is you want to keep doing your referral partners and hire an assistant or two assistants to do your refi. You don't want to miss out on the refis, but the purchase business is your foundation.

You spent basically a year rebuilding your name, reputation, cold calling, go into coffee in your business. That mindset really scares me because, you know, depending on how far rates fall, and how quickly they fall, it will rain loans again and people will make a massive amount of money. Great. Want you to do that. But I want you to keep your foundation and make the money.

So my worry is that people will go easy again. And then when rates go up, we're right back in that cycle. So if we do that, that's how we will lose broker market share. We will continue to grow broker market share if we keep the foundation of purchase and take the refi. So that's, you know, a little bit of my worry, you know, and we have these things right now. You know, we're always rolling out different things at UWM. And, you know, those things are, they're saying, oh, you're rolling these things out for UWM. We're rolling these things out for you, right?

We're trying to give you more opportunities to reach out to consumers to have a conversation. And maybe they don't want to refire right now. But if you reach out to them, they'll remember you. And maybe they want to save $85 a month, and now they only save $40. But when it does hit 85 and you call, they'll thank you. Yeah. So it's just, we just have to continue to make sure that when the rates do come down and they are coming down, I don't know when. We don't give up the foundation.

It's gotten us 24.2% market share. We take that 24.2 and grow to 25 to 27 to 30. And that's the way that we got to do it. So that's, I know that's coming, right? It is when and how much? I don't know. But it will be good again. It will be very.

And the other thing I think about, people who made it. You made it through 2022, 2022, 23. This is the time where, you know, you're doubling down. Let's get ready. You know, Matt always says, you know, when the rates drop, if you only double your business, you missed out because you should triple. So that's the way people should think about this. Now, let me ask you, do you foresee, like, any regulatory obstacles

that could really hinder a broker's growth in the next couple years, other than them trying to always change the thing on it. They're always hating on them for marketing, you know, and the other. No, I mean, I don't think so. I think, again, brokers, my opinion is brokers have all of the facts and data on this side. So what do I mean by that? When you had the HMNA data come out and say, and this is based off 2021, I don't think we've still seen 2022 data yet, if a consumer went through a mortgage broker, they save $9,400

over the life of a loan, what's the regulatory agency going to say to us? Go mess with retail, right? A broker is giving you a better rate. You're getting a better client experience. It's not on brokers as the ones who, if you want to say, I don't believe in more regulation. I don't, you know, we don't get to politics. But I think if you want to say, if you want to go look for something, it's not in wholesale who's not delivering the best rate, who's not delivering the best, you know, cost structure,

who's not delivering the best client experience. That might be on the other side over there. So, I mean, I don't know anymore than you know, Joe, on types of regulatory, but I'm not hearing anybody talk about any additional regulatory action, at least from a federal level, who knows what different states do. But, you know, I think, look, our focus has to be on continuing to do what you and I talked about, which is tell the positive stories of what happens when you go through a mortgage broker. Because, you know, I remember this has been a while.

USA Today came out with a story that said most consumers would rather get a root canal than go to a mortgage process, right? Because that's how bad it used to be. You asked you over and over and over and over and over for different documents. And so I think the way we do it here at UWM to make that experience easy is what we got to get out to the marketplace. What do you think the mindset that an originator has to have right now to succeed in today's market? Well, first off, I'm assuming they've been in, they made it through 2020. and 2020. So if you've survived arguably, I mean,

there's some people who have friends of mine think it was even worse than 2008 because how fast rates rose, for the ability challenges, inventory challenges, just so many times. So you survived 2022 and 2023. You, in my opinion, made it through the worst. So now it should be about, okay,

I had to hunker down. Now it's about growth. Now it's about leveraging social media. Now it's about telling my story so that not only am I getting consumers, but I'm getting other referral agents. And so I think it really, we always talk about that growth mindset. You know, it was hunker down. Now it's about let's build it up, right?

Let's tell the story. Let's go get consumers. Let's go get clients. Let's go get referral agents. So I think a lot of it starts with us looking in the mirror and understanding who we are. And once we understand who we are, we can then go put that out in the world.

So it really is about just going to tell the story about all the really good things we have going on in the broker community, and therefore that individual themselves. Love that. Now, I know we talked about this briefly, and we talked about this in the masterminds, but from a government level, do you think, like Fannie Mae, FHA, are going to use AI to implement any sort of additional procedures or simplify anything? Yeah, I mean, listen, everyone's talking about AI, right?

And so I'm sure, I don't know anything about what the government's doing, but I'm sure they're looking at ways to probably, I would think for like Fannie when I was there, Fannie will be looking at ways to, you know, enhance underwriting, enhance quality control, enhance quality insurance. So I assume so. I know like at UWM, we're looking, you know, making a lot of investments to ensure that, you know, we are leading, not following. So if we're leading in the mortgage space, brokers will be winning. So I'm sure there's probably no industry, nothing out there that's not trying to figure out how AI can help them improve the process, improve the client experience, improve their ability to prevent fraud, whatever it may be. I think kind of the reach of AI, we don't even fully grasp right yet. And UWM's on the cusp, I'm sure.

I mean, you guys got 1600 tech guys. Yeah. We have a huge investment in AI. My expectation is you'll see us roll something out probably middle this year that will start helping brokers be able to do things faster. You know, it's always the same, right? Faster and cheaper will always win, right, with a high level of client experience. Not just faster and cheaper, you give up client experience, but faster, cheaper, but a high

level of client experience. I'm sure you'll see something coming from us soon. Now, Desmond, a couple last questions now. You're the highest leader at UWM, the Chief Growth Officer. What are you guys doing at UWM to develop such great leaders? Look, I think it all starts with culture, right? Matt is absolutely, what you see is who he is, completely devoted. I always say, well, tell me about Matt.

I go, look, first of foremost, his family is kids, right? Second is company, UWM, third, Sons Mercury. I think that's the way we think of it in UWM, right? You take care of people, you treat them fairly, you respect them, you understand who they are. And when I say understanding who I understand who they are personally, right? I got two kids. My son likes to play football, my football and basketball,

my daughter likes to play lacrosse. When you invest in people, it's not like at work. It's like, this is my family, and I know a lot of people use that and go, oh, it's not family. It is. I mean, it's up to the leader, right? It's up to me to work with my team so they understand how much I care, and that goes all the way down. Starts with Matt, but it's still culture in how you treat people, is how you cultivate leaders. Because when people feel hurt, feel valued, feel respected, they feel trust, then they get the best out of themselves and they're happy to do it.

So I think that's what we do at UWM. There is no secret sauce other than... treating people fairly, people respect, understanding who that person is. Again, I'm not talking about who they are at work. I'm talking about who are they at home, what's important to them, what drives them,

and then from there, you know, it really, at the end of the day, allows you to get the best out of somebody. That's awesome. This has been a great interview. I have one last question. Sure. It's a three-prong question.

Okay. Okay. And I know you guys do this already, so this is going to probably roll off your tongue, but what's a personal goal that you have this year? What's a business goal that you have this year? What's a family goal that you have this year? So my personal goal typically revolves around my weight, right?

So for me, my personal goal is to stay right between like 210 pounds, as crazy as that may sound, good or bad to some people. My professional goal, you know, it's about, winning right so I want to ensure that we're doing everything we can to grow broken market share right so you know I wrote down on my my my goals for one of my professional goals was get brokers a 25% market share um about to hit that this well that's per that's for the quarter I think for the year we're still in the high 22s so that's a big big jump but I always look at it this way if you get brokers

to 25% is by the fond of the largest in the nation, right? Just because we don't do anything else. So 25% market share. And then family goal, you know, I tell you, I have a boy and a girl, two twins. I have twins, boy and girl, 10 years old. And so, you know, I actually actually took this kind of goal.

Matt and I were talking about it is to try and spend some more quality time with each of my kids individually. So I put five, five, five individual things with my kid so like I took my son to a Lions game Lions playoff game so I got one with him

I have zero year date and we're in March almost in March now with my daughter so you know it's just trying to figure out ways because especially when you're twins and they do everything together so they give them some individual time so I got four to go with my son

I still got five to go with my daughter but I'll get them done right and it doesn't have to be anything great like, you know, what if I know, I just haven't done it for my daughter is going to be, she loves art. So there's a little art place where you can go build like stuff. So we're going to go do that. That'll be my first one with her and then I got four more each. But that's, that's it.

Spending some quality time. That's awesome. Yeah, individually. I spent a lot of time with them together. Yeah. I'm trying to give them some individual time. That actually makes me think about that because I got four kids. And my wife's always like, you got to take them out individually,

and you should be doing that once a month with each kid. I'm like, it's a lot, right? It really is. I mean, it's just a lot. But you know what? What you want to do, you make happen. And so, like, no, shame on my. I'm okay with my son because I got one.

And so I'm okay. But I have no excuse for now. I've done one with my daughter. So now I bet you I'll do it next week. I bet you we'll go, hell, I may go Sunday and just, you know, because it takes an hour. Yeah. You go spend an hour in this little.

art studio and you know i think those are memories that your kids i never forget yeah so you got to make it happen yeah hey desmond you've been the man today thank you so much for coming on today's show you're an absolute legend in the space i appreciate thank you for all your servitude to the broker community you're god sent to all of us you've changed the game for the whole broker landscape continue to do great things we appreciate you we love you desens with it guys chief growth officer uvm god bless his service we appreciate thank you j j julys Appreciate you having me, baby. All right, baby.

Thank you.