Crime in Sports - #268 - Pretending To Be A Murderer - The Almostness of Charles Shackleford

Episode Date: August 24, 2021

This week, we take a look at a man who was so close to being what he wanted to be, but couldn't quite get there. In & out of the NBA, until no one would sign him anymore. He then embarked on a second career, consisting of being in the wrong place, at the the exact wrong time. He was forced to testify in the Rae Carruth murder trial, he pretended to be Jayson Williams, and just about every self destructive thing he could seemingly think of! Deny shaving points to benefit gamblers, never have a driver's license, and always date the same stripper as a murderer with Charles Shackleford!! Check us out, every Tuesday! !We will continue to bring you the biggest idiots in sports history!!  Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman  Donate at... patreon.com/crimeinsports or with paypal.com using our email: [e-mail]  Get all the CIS & STM merch at crimeinsports.threadless.com  Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things CIS & STM!!  Contact us on... twitter.com/crimeinsports [e-mail] facebook.com/Crimeinsports instagram.com/smalltownmurder See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Crime and Sports early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Looking for inspiration? Craving something new? When you visit Audible, there are endless ways to ignite your imagination. With over 750,000 titles, including bestsellers, there's a listen for every type of listener. Discover all the best in audiobooks, podcasts, and originals featuring authentic Canadian voices and celebrity talent like Brendan Fraser and Luke Kirby's latest sci-fi adventure, The Downloaded.

A first listen is waiting for you when you start your free trial at audible.ca. The Queen of the Courtroom is back. How did I know that? i have crystal ball in my head new cases leave her a long so uh this is not a so this is a period classic judy it's streaming you can say anything it's an all-new season judy justice only on freebie Hello and welcome to Crime and Sports! Yay! Yay! Yay indeed, Jimmy, yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo, I'm here with my co-host.

Hi, I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us again today. We are very, very excited for another edition of Crime and Sports. We do apologize for last week. We... Wow. Believe me, we would have really liked it to work out but had a whole episode all the research did a whole recording of the episode and then we sounded like

max headroom so that's what it was and if you don't know what that is that's an 80s computer person that would go like when they talked like and welcome welcome back like that's literally how we sounded it was really like trippy and weird and uh you wouldn't have understood what was going on and it was one of the more frustrating experiences we've had since we've started this podcast so i had to delete everything and redo my whole computer absolutely so it's a it's a mess and so we had to do a new episode this week because like there was some surprises in the other one and i don't they're blown so now i have to wait till Jimmy forgets it.

It's going to be a few months and then I'll say, did we ever do him? And I'll go, no. And then he'll forget everything. So it works out nice. But thank you for joining us. First of all, thanks for everything you do for us. Thank you for your reviews. Wherever you listen to podcasts, whatever platform, if you can review, review.

Give five stars, 10 stars, 300 stars, however many stupid stars you need to give to make it good. Say whatever you have to say. You're following instructions. It doesn't matter. It's not for our ego, but it helps us. So thank you for doing that. Also, new shows that you need to listen to are shows on the Upside Down Digital Network. If you haven't checked them out yet, give them a shot.

Game of Crimes, first of all, which is a great show hosted by Morgan Wright and Steve Murphy. It's doing so great. It's doing really great. They're really putting their heart and soul into that. They really are. One of the guys was the blonde guy in Narcos. Not the actor. The guy that the character was based on.

So, I mean, they have interesting stories. Pablo Escobar has never put a hit out on you. So, you don't have as interesting stories as these guys. And then we have also Life After Happy Face, which is also really, really cool and a good show posted by Melissa Moore and Dr. Laura Petler. And they just have such a unique take on crime and murder and the whole thing. They see it from different angles, obviously, as Melissa is the happy face killer's daughter. So it's a big deal. Check these shows out.

Really, they're excellent shows. And you're supporting us and everything we do as well. So thank you for doing that. If you haven't done it yet, please give it a shot. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports. So much fun. These were great episodes this week that we just posted up there. You're going to want to be a part of this here.

Anybody over the $5 level gets access to everything all the shows all both shows is patreon whole back catalog you're going to get about four shows a month on patreon it's all good stuff this week we did for crime and sports the malice at the palace which i mean come on that was a great just a fantastic episode talking about that. We had a lot of fun. And then Small Town Murders, which if you don't know, Malice at the Palace is a big giant brawl between players and fans in Detroit there. Pistons and Pacers. And it spilled into the stands. Well, yeah, definitely.

It went all over the place. The stands spilled to them. Exactly. And then for Small Town murder, we have conspiracy theories, but not in dangerous ones. We're not talking about like things that are nothing that you would hate someone over. These are things that you would argue about with your friend for a half hour and then forget about and go get something neat.

You know what I mean? Like big foot monster area 51, things of this nature. And, uh, we find some of their origins, and they're hilarious, especially the Loch Ness Monster. You're going to really want to know where that one came from.

It's not what you think, so it's funny as shit. Check that out. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports, and good stuff there. And you're going to get a shout-out at the end of the show because that makes you a producer. We are ever thankful to you and for you. So, Timmy, we'll mispronounce your name to show how thankful we are ever thankful to you and for you so timmy will mispronounce your name to show how thankful we are and if you just want the shout out and to have great karma and our undying affection

you can also do that over at paypal using our email address crime and sports at gmail.com that said we have got to get into this we have quite the show for you today we have uh in honor of doing the malice at the palace thing we have a basketball player let's get back it's been a while since we've had an nba player i think it was skywalker thompson was the last one right jordan's prodigy jordan's mentor not mentor his idol jordan's idol michael jordan's idol and he was and michael jordan looked up to his game and great player and had his career pretty much ended by getting thrown down some stairs at Studio 54, which is a strange way to end your career. And while talking to a lady, hey, she's look at her.

She's good looking. Hey, how's it going? Oh, God, my career's over. That's a very strange thing here. This week, we are going to talk about somebody else completely different here, kind of guy who's been forgotten in the annals of basketball because he never made that big of an impact except in college. But his name, he is the original nickname of somebody extremely famous. He is the original Shaq. About four years before Shaq was Shaq, this guy was Shaq, and it's Charles Edward Shackelford.

Remember him at all? Charles Shackelford? But Shaq like Shanty. Yes, exactly. Like his name, S-H-A-C-K, Shaq, instead of with the Q. But everybody called him Shaq. Like in college, I mean, in the papers, it would say, you know, Shaq and North Carolina State doing this. If he was a

big NBA success, you'd be talking about that host Shaquille O'Neal. He wouldn't be Shaq. They'd just call him Shaquille. They'd call him Shaquille O'Neal, that giant guy named Shaquille. So our guy here, Charles Edward Shackelford, born April 22nd

1966. Okay. And he is born in Kinston, North Carolina is where he comes up. Kinston. Like Kingston. Yeah, like Kingston except with no G. Essentially. The hillbilly way.

Yeah. You know, over in Kinston. Yeah. Kinston, North Carolina. Now, coming up here, his sister was also a big high school basketball star really yeah so i feel like there's a lot of that seems to go around in the family here which makes sense because he's six foot ten six foot eleven you know six ten six ten and a half is a big is a big guy and probably his sister's probably not five three i'm imagining

yeah so that would make sense here like reggie miller like reggie miller and cheryl miller who's like basically reggie miller but three inches shorter yeah two inches shorter or something yeah they're they're eye to eye you watch the malice at the palace when he's retiring she's standing next to him right there she's up to his eyebrow like yeah right like, whoa, yeah, she's tall. So his sister high school basketball star, he's 6'10", like we said. So right away, when kids are that size, he wasn't a kid who came up small, and then in the 11th grade he went from 5'11 to 6'8". He's not a Dennis Rodman or a Scottie Pippen either.

This is a guy who was always huge. So, look, he treated very differently at a young age because of basketball, because it was just, they just don't make people that big and that athletic. Right. And if they do, they're coveted. That's all there is to it. So he's always treated a little bit different. He wears size 18 1⁄2 shoes.

My God. 18 1⁄ half, which is- In high school? Monstrous. When he goes to college. In his freshman year of college, they say that in the paper. That is a lot of foot. So it must be 18 and a half.

Which size shoe do you wear, Jimmy? It's so embarrassing. Don't ask me that. Can you fit two of them in one of his shoes is what I'm asking. Okay, that's what I'm asking. Absolutely. Yeah. That's hilarious.

With room to spare. 18 and a half is a big shoe, though. one of his shoes is what i'm asking okay that's absolutely yeah that's hilarious with room despair that's a 18 and a half is a big shoe though an eight or a goddamn eight oh wow okay an eight isn't that just depressing no because you could probably find shoes everywhere no because everybody in their life wore an eight at some point. Oh, damn it. Therefore, they are very popular. Children love them. Oh, no. See, I have the opposite problem. The shoes I wear, they only order like two pairs of them.

There's a large amount of people on this planet that wear an 8. It's not because that's where their foot stops growing. It's this transition point to where they end up. And everybody's in an eight at some point and there's a bastard to find shoes there are places with a lot of small people in the world also where they probably want a lot of them wear eights that makes sense it's a popular shoe damn it that's a tough one then 18 and a half 14 year olds wearing the same shoe as me 18 and a half not a popular shoe as a of fact, and probably even harder to find, I would imagine.

You probably have to have those made, like sewn onto you, like sculpted to your foot while you're there. So, yeah, he's a huge high school basketball star. I was reading all these articles, and they're just like, oh, Christ, he's amazing. He's just you know everyone is like his team they talk about him for three paragraphs and they're like and then the team did this and this and it's great and it's over you know like talk about the game for like one paragraph but charles shackleford for three paragraphs and how much how he just was a man among boys and he's just tossing people around and dunking on people and there was this one article where they were going over this game where they i swear to god they went

over every dunk that he made just like in this article it was like it's a high school basketball game calm down paragraph to talk about everybody else that's exactly what it was it was just like blow by blow by blow so he decides he's recruited by everybody, by the way, because he's a big man. And in the mid-'80s, a big man is, you know, that's what the game was predicated on. I mean, think about in college and the guys who were going into the NBA at that point

were talking about Olajuwon and Ewing, and they picked Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan. I mean, that's how coveted big men were. They really were. So that was the first thing you needed. It was like the Kareem model because he won so many titles. They were like, okay, you need a Kareem in the middle and then you figure out the rest around that.

The Wilt in the middle, Bill Russell in the middle. That was the whole thing. There should be more shame in hindsight. You know what I mean? We should look back more on past drafts and really ridicule the people that picked sam buoy over jordan by the way that's crazy the future bonus episode is going to be uh terrible draft picks not even necessarily draft bus but just bad draft picks like that like why would you yeah why would you when you could have

done that one of those so and i'd like to know who was filled in the position that Ray Lewis was in. They didn't pick Ray. You know what I mean? Who did you have that Ray Lewis came up and you're like, I've got a linebacker. I don't need him. Yeah. Well, watch the 30 for 30 from Elway to Marino. Watch that documentary. And you watched Dan Marino was drafted 27th in the first round. You watch team after team after team go, nah. Literally, nah. That's all right. Nah, don't need him. No, that's okay.

And they were like, nah, we don't need Dan Marino. Pittsburgh had a, like, Terry Bradshaw is going to retire, like, the next year. He's from Pittsburgh. He played at Pitt. It's all right there. And they were like that we didn't feel like we needed him right then huh you out of your fucking minds what the hell is wrong with you people what is aaron rogers one is the same way it's like are you fucking

kidding me yeah you're gonna ride or die with that quarterback when you could have aaron fucking roger i'm telling you look at all the guys picked ahead of Marino. We're talking Todd Blackledge, Jimmy. Yikes. You know what I'm saying? Ken O'Brien, Todd Blackledge. The list goes on and on. It's not good. You mean not Hall of Famers?

A bunch of not Hall of Famers. You get John Elway, fine. Yeah. Even Jim Kelly, whatever. He had a great career, so of famer another hall of famer he went outside of that super balls then marino went to marino went to one did he go to one he went into like his almost his rookie year was like i think it was his second year he was in the super bowl all right well 84 is 84 yeah okay he was in the super bowl against uh sanfran

but that wasn't if you ever saw the miami the miami teams were shit though they were dan marino i certainly didn't see that super bowl i was three they were dan marino with his you know with a bunch of guys on his back most of those teams i mean even their star players were only stars because dan marino was making them stars duper and clayton those guys weren't great receivers they were just had dan marino fucking gunning the ball into their chest. They're running game with shit. Did Miami only go to two Super Bowls? No, they went to more in the 70s. They won

fucking a couple. They were undefeated. They won two in a row at that point. They went later on. They went before that and lost. Miami was a powerhouse of the 70s. They used to be great. It was them and then the Steelers and the Cowboys. The Raiders. Those are kind of the 70s i mean great they were the team like it was the you know them and then the steelers and the cowboys those are like the been the raiders those are kind of the big four

of the 70s and then in the 80s they were just fun because it was dan marino yeah so anyway back to basketball sure he uh he i don't know how the hell we got all the way over there. Wash. Yeah. Yeah. So Shackleford here, he's chased by all these schools. And he knows Chris Washburn back then. He plays with Chris Washburn, who we've also covered. And he's going to play with Chris Washburn in North Carolina State as well, where he chooses to go. Yeah, because Shackleford, he can go anywhere. Literally anywhere he feels like going. His pick, man.

Any basketball school. more than 100 schools. So that's most of them. Imagine that. Imagine being wanted by that many people in suits for anything. 100 of anything with any interest in me for anything. For anything. But I mean, 100 people are like, please come here so you can play basketball and we can all worship you. Please.

Like, we think that it's, well, instead, no one wanted us anywhere. They didn't even want us for shit jobs. So Washburn, though, was kind of, he said he was in the same situation, so they kind of became friends over that. Okay. Shackleford said, quote, a lot of colleges were after me, but I committed to state to get it off my mind so I could work hard on my ball and my grades. Imagine. Yep. So he could.

But half of that is true, by the way. He's half right there. He will work on his ball, but grades are not even in the periphery. They're like, no. He's's six foot ten almost 6 11 he's from north carolina where basketball uh you know is sort of it's not it's it there's church and then there's right under that is college basketball like it's that important there if you go to like raleigh durham area and look at back in the day a newspaper and go to the sports section the first six pages are about college basketball even if it's fucking september or you know this middle of summer it doesn't matter first six pages about college basketball then they're like oh yeah

the nfl and the mlb and all that shit exists too it's all they're obsessed with it you got duke unc wake forest nc state right there. All the tobacco, yeah. That's it. So it's a huge deal there. And he ends up going to North Carolina State, which nowadays people would go NC State. What are you choosing that over UNC and Duke? Anything. Yeah.

Over anything. Back then, they had just won the national championship. So it was a big deal. Yeah, they had shocked the world and they were you know they were a huge deal jim valvano was considered the greatest coach in the fucking planet for that moment in time until the next year when it was john robinson and or john thompson in the next year when it was somebody else but uh next year when it was sheshefsky and then you know every year somebody different so uh roy williams or you know whatever the fuck not

roy williams the hell's his name the kansas guy i don't know fuck never mind anyway 85 86 uh not stashevsky that's uh duke so 85 86 he goes to north carolina state and um yeah at the time nationally they're as known as anybody because they're killing it at that moment. That year, they go 21-13, which is a little less than you would want for a powerhouse. But they just want to get into the tournament and then go from there. That's where it is. Good tournament team, and that's what they do. They go to the tournament as a No. 6 seed.

They beat No. 11 seed Iowa 66-64 in in the first round they go to the second round they beat uh little rock number 14 seed powerhouse of little rock college university of little rock i don't even know what the fuck it is that's what i've never have you ever the town a little rock yeah have you just on people it's just they're like intramural team some high school kids couple guys who played a few years ago little rock high alum what's up represent so that's how little i know about little rock is i don't even know if they're a college a university it's probably for the best little rock tech i don't know what the hell they are so anyway nc state beats them 80 to 66 then um the next round they beat number seven iowa state jesus they're just running through the state of iowa whooping people's asses beating them down people crying into their fucking husks whole state of iowa whole town a

little rock sobbing into your husks people they beat them 70 to 66 which is the second straight game they gave up 66 points in the game before that they scored 66 points but gave up 64 so there's a ballpark here yeah so finally they go and they number one kansas they end up playing here all right and they lose that game 75 67 to knock them out jay hawk. There you go. Against the coach who I can't remember his goddamn name. It's Roy something and I can't remember his fucking name. I wanted to know. Roy? What's your name?

Roy? The blinking is a good thing. Is it Orvis and James? Definitely not. It might be Williams and I'm just overthinking it, but that could be that. Wasn't there a Roy Williams that was a defensive back that I'm thinking about, too? See, that's what fucks me up. Anyway, he goes on that team, by the way.

Chris Washburn is a sophomore. Chris Washburn, if you don't remember, we did an episode on him. His claim to fame is being amphibious. Right. According to him, obviously. He means ambidextrous and has chosen to label that amphibious right um according to him obviously he means ambidextrous and uh has chosen to label that amphibious with confidence yeah so keep that in mind by the way that's that's like one of uh shackleford's guys that he's looking up to is chris washburn so that's important but this

squad right here there's a lot of nba players on the squad. Chris Washburn, who was an NBA player. Nate McMillan, who's a longtime NBA player. Current, was he a coach, an executive? Coach, yeah. A broadcaster, something? He's got to be a coach. He wears a suit and talks about basketball. I'm just not sure whether he talks to the camera or the players about it.

Either way, he's got a suit on. I think he's a coach. I'd buy that. He might be a woman on he's a coach i'd buy that a woman's coach okay i'll buy that either way you know what he's doing yeah suit basketball so we got it paid by basketball today that's what he is to speak on basketball yes good for him uh we got shackleford uh chucky brown who was in the nba for a while and vinnie del negro as well longtime san antonio spur player so best three-point shooters they ever had a lot of uh nba players it's a pretty solid squad that you could put together in college there i would say uh now shackleford and his this is what's fucking amazing uh in his freshman year he has academic problems and we'll find out

what they are basically he's not eligible to play uh as far as north carolina state goes shoot a basket well allowing it no we'll talk about it none of his scores are up to snuff and his he doesn't go to class there's uh he doesn't basically it's not that he's dumb he just chooses not to do anything he chooses not to engage in school we'll say so it's uh he's which is dumber not passing the test or not taking the test maybe in his case it's not taking the test because if he took the test they could probably work with it and you knowudge something. But if he doesn't even show up, they notice if the dude who's 6'11 isn't in class. Right. Hey, where's that dude who sticks out on top of everybody?

Where's that guy? I missed him. I very much notice that he's not here. Yeah. He just doesn't give a shit. That's his problem. I don't ever get the sense that he's particularly dumb. I just get the sense that he's not particularly interested in being smart.

I don't know. Those are two different things, I feel like. But, yeah. So he ended up, like we said, they ended up letting him play for some reason. And, obviously, we know why. There's a silver streak going all through that shit. Because you need him because we'd like because look how tall he is have you seen his feet they're huge because we sure

would like to win they're huge his feet's huge so they he had they said he came off the bench and had such enthusiasm that his teammates had to want to give him the ball uh nate mcmillan who like we said is a future uh coach slash commentator possible woman's coach um we're not sure but he's something to do with basketball and he definitely has a tie on he might be the equipment room manager i don't know but i do know he owns a lot of sports coats i do know that a bunch of them like he has a lot of suits probably yeah he said quote it shocked me he was talking to the big guys and even talking to the guards you like to see that in your big men he was so pumped up you couldn't help but want to give him the ball so yeah they loved having him around his first season here he does end up playing in

29 games and starting all 29 as a freshman. That's pretty impressive. 30 minutes a game as well, so that's most of the game. It's 40 minutes in college. So not too shabby. 10.3 points a game, 6.1 rebounds, 0.9 blocks. So that's great for a kid. I mean, he's a child still, so not bad. He's part of the 1986 NCAA tournament all-region team.

So he did well in the whatever bracket when they beat the shit out of one of the Iowas. Who knows? He ends up training with the U.S. team for the World Games in 86. I guess it's one of the off-year. Remember they have those. It's like the Pan American Games games they have shit like that it's one of those kind of the world because the olympics had 84 88 92 for basketball so 86 is an off year lew dolson was the coach i know of this and uh he trained with the team yeah u of a's coach long time coach i think he just died he died

didn't he eventually resign in some sort of disgrace in some way is there anybody nowadays who can coach for 30 years and not end up and not have it ending up not have it end up bad like somehow there was something shady right like that's probably just what they did you know yeah back in the day john wooden or dean smith like they were above there was nobody that would say a bad story about them so they could retire and everybody they're a legend but now event you diddled somebody or you know you did something stupid or you said something or you gave a player methamphetamine it's i don't know there's lots of things you could do i guess

probably i loved the u of a asU rivalry because whenever the coaches would shake hands it looked like like Bill Frieder looked like uh Lute Olsen with AIDS he did too he looked he looked like a bad bad health Lute Olsen stage four very very sick Lute Olsen he did Frieder looked like Lute Olsen in a dumpster what if you roughed lewd olsen up fucking made him drink you know like just rye whiskey all night long and then threw him in a dumpster for four weeks and threw him in a dumpster that's what he would look like when they found him yeah oh god loot looks like shit push him out to center court everybody let's see what he's got like bill frieda looked fine for bill frieda but bill frieder looked like shit for loot holes no shit man oh christ so the next year 86 87 he's suspended in the beginning of the

year for poor grades obviously and then was reinstated for the spring semester you know because that's the run-up to the tournament. And let's not get silly about it here. I mean, sure, he doesn't show up for class, but for fuck's sake. Come on now. But we need him. Well, they make him sign a contract, and it's a contractual agreement to attend all his classes.

He has to sign a contract that he'll show up. It doesn't say he'll do the work or pass. Just he will show up. That's how'll do the work or pass just he will show up that's the that's how low they've lowered the bar for him please sit in a room for an hour and then you're good that's all we ask of you except that uh challenge when he signed up to go to fucking college well usually yes usually that and try to pass and things like that but they've they've gone to the point where they're like look we both know you're 6 11 okay right just show up yeah just show up and we'll work we'll work with it from there but you know zone out think about other things yeah you know write songs and poetry

in your head or something do something but just don't ever you gotta do don't fucking not show up sign here the former head of the north carolina physical education department richard loffler he discussed this is great he described charles as a quote a poor student not financially uh quote without any interest in trying to get an education and who quote should have never been in school in the first place so that's what we have a long it does not well he's not there to go to school which is yeah fine that's fine i don't expect someone the the ability to play a sport and the and the want to like go to a class and learn about shit they don't go together necessarily they might you want both, but it doesn't have to be.

They're not there. They can be very mutually exclusive. It's fucking ridiculous. So that's why now I like the, the one and done thing is even stupid because why, why do you make, what is the speed bump you've put before people? If they want to make a living,

I don't understand. It's certainly not going to help them later because they're not going to get a degree in one year. No, they're not gonna get a degree in one year no they're not dumb no they're there to give powerhouse programs of tournament runs for every year yeah that's it every year they're gonna have a tournament run with one star then they're gonna keep having to refresh that star and it's just made it so it's the same cycle the college coaches were always on as far as recruiting to replace players except now having to do it every few years now it's every year it just accelerated the whole thing and i'm sure they'll all have heart attacks and die so probably he uh he jesus christ shackleford though has no interest in any of this

shit he's not interested in in any any form of education any form of uh anything like that like i said i don't fucking care about that and they don't either obviously it's not like they're like well he's got to get an education they want him to fucking play basketball but there's ncaa rules that that make them uh have to get him into class so therefore they're making him sign shit and the mid-80s it was a little loosey-goosey yeah there's still paperwork that they've got to fill out but it would be like five years later they'd find out about that in the 80s like it wasn't like now it was very loosey-goosey in the 80s with like glasses are you kidding me the internet wasn't there for them to like log that these guys yeah that's what i'm saying ncaa to keep track of it this is still the like just a handful of or a

fucking briefcase full of cash and just stop on by the dealership and pick out what you want young man type of fucking days where literally like you know some alumni would just be giving cars away to the athletes and shit back then every one of these guys they drive fancy shit and i in college everyone was like i don't know where the hell they're getting all this money as as cool as that sounds i mean for the athlete that sounds great but i'm not what would that what's the hubris why would you want that for yourself as like the the free car successful guy from college who's buying cars for people like why do you oh why do you want to be that guy yeah that guy doesn't sound like fun because you're you're a part of the team jimmy yeah i'm a part of the team i'm a part

of the program every one of the alumna, Jimmy, are part of the program. That's what it is. Every one of us are responsible to try to win on that floor, add as much support to them fellas as we can possibly add. That's all it is, Jimmy. They do all that so they can say we won the championship. Yeah, literally. That's what it is.

I'm so creeped out by anybody who's that involved with anything they used to do. I didn't go to college, so I don't get it, obviously. I never felt that connection to my high school. I don't give a fuck if that place burns down tomorrow. Never did. But the college, people have this weird connection with it. I don't know why. I barely feel that way about my own house

james yeah i mean whatever down tomorrow i just file an insurance as long as i get my shit out i'm pretty happy like there's some i got a few important things outside of that the house isn't important none of that shit's important but no no people about college isn't especially people that didn't even play the sport are so crazy for it. I don't understand why. Still going on spring break at 32. Those guys are pretending to take the same classes I took 15 years ago. Right. Except I had to pay for it. Right.

And they should be getting paid for it. That's the difference. And now I'm still paying. Yeah. Because I just bought a Cadillac for a 19-year-old. Yeah. No shit. I was going to say.

That's nice because he just got a briefcase full of cash, so those things must go together. So 86-87, they go 20-15 and go to the tournament but get bounced in the first round. Ouch. Not great against number six seed Florida, 82-70.

So that's kind of a quick drop-off for them. They're talking about shackleford basically not being real consistent about a lot of shit um valvano the coach said quote last year shack was affected by a lot of things by the expectations of greatness by the lack of another big man to take the pressure off by that chronic ankle injury he had sure so he's saying but now we think he's better he starts all 34 games he plays in that year and has 13.9 points 7.6 rebounds 1.4 blocks and one steal per game so that's a damn good stat line not bad for a young guy like that he is the uh all acc tournament second team on there and uh he at

one point during that run was having such a good run the reporters were curious as to how he was pulling all his shit off and uh being a friend of chris washburns this is how i know that chris washburn when he said he was amphibious he didn didn't just misspeak. Like he honestly thought that's what the word was because they ask him, you're so good underneath because you're so versatile, Shackelford. And he said, oh, well, yeah, I can shoot with my left hand. I can shoot with my right hand. I'm amphibious. It's a pandemic. Everybody says it's spreading.

So he so he heard Washburn say and he was like am i amphibious too and he was like hell yeah you are that's a good left hand you got there like you're amphibious as shit so on that team they think shooting with your left means you're going amphibious how do you as a journalist how do you just let that slide that's what i'm saying how do you not be like yeah i get like in conversation now you don't obviously you wouldn't be like what are you stupid you mean ambidextrous but how would you not say like oh do you think being ambidextrous helps you yeah right try the correct word maybe he made a mistake to see if he go to see and then to see if he'll double down and be like yeah it's good being amphibious that's just what i was saying you know because that's what some people would do they double down and be like, yeah, it's good being amphibious. That's just what I was saying.

Because that's what some people would do. They'd double down on their dump. I love when you do that. And that's when you let it go. But as a journalist, you don't just write that shit down and then chuckle to yourself. They're so excited to hear a guy say this. What was it like losing your tail tadpole, sir? So let me get this straight.

You like to score like 17 points a game and then take a dip into the river and then crawl back up on the banks for a couple hours to dry out in the sun? Is that what you like to do? Are you saying you can't wait until the game's over to get back in the shower and rinse your gills, sir? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can spend long periods of time underwater but you still need oxygen from the surface is that okay so he uh do your eyelids close underneath

also idiot oh my god and and like i said a lot of these i find in these old newspaper archives and the title of the article was he's amphibious so it was like or nc star is amphibious or whatever the fuck it was so they they love that shit there's one way to get the student newspaper to fuck you to get hated by the sports team they'll never talk to you again if you just roast them for for being dumb but for him he thinks that's good he's like see they're finally recognizing my amphibiousness that That's the thing. For a long time, they didn't see it. They didn't realize.

He hangs out with Chris way too much. How amphibious I actually was. Which is fucking crazy. I'm amphibious. I hate the journalist as much as I hate him for that. Yeah, they were definitely excited to be able to say, this idiot said he's amphibious. And then in the next breath, his coaches say he doesn't like to go to class either. So, you know, they love that shit.

April of 1987, he loses his driver's license for 30 days after being arrested for speeding. Arrested for speeding? He likes to drive very, very fast. We'll find out. Yeah. He's not going fucking 48 in a 35 or some shit. This is a 95 in a 40 type of shit. They'll bump it down from criminal to civil.

If they bumped it down to the criminal to civil if yeah if they bumped it down to the arrest that's a that's a problem that means that like an old lady dove out of the way with her walker while the cop was chasing him that's what that means holding her very small dog yeah absolutely yanked it by the collar like what fucking movie was that um and they pull the fucking dog back and the guy vacation vacation when he when he falls asleep at the wheel with honky lips written on the side and he's flying through and there's a guy like walking his dog in the car like flies through an alley and he yanks the dog by the collar and just holds it like it was on a fucking bungee cord or some shit he parks in the parking

we're here we're here up and adam we're here so he must have been doing some dumb shit on the road he had to get arrested for speeding so especially if you're a local hero that's the other thing like oh mr amphibious over here jesus christ we could have just public executed you instead we're gonna knock it down to an arrest. So, Jesus. 87-88, Wolfpack are 24-7. They are. That's great. Goddamn good.

Yeah, not too bad at all. They go to the tournament, and in the first round, they lose to Murray State. Oh. Who's the number four. They're the number three seed, NC State. They lose to the number 14 seed. Not good. So this is like one of those reference point upsets where they'll be like,

remember back in the day when a three seed beat a 14 seed? And they still show highlights of this. Some guy who now sells insurance played for Murray State at the time, fucking hitting a three-pointer to break their hearts. They lose 78-75. Oh, and it was a close one, too. It was a close one. Yeah, that's rough.

That is rough. December of 87, though, in the middle before that, he, again, has to plead guilty to speeding. And now he's speeding. It was in a 55-mile-an-hour zone he's arrested for speeding. And he also doesn't have a license so that's a that's a problem here um an issue it's the second conviction of a speeding charge since july so after that initial april one he had another one in july where he didn't even have a license because it was suspended and he was still speeding uh and that one he was facing a charge of driving 70 in a 45 yikes which is that's pretty fast in a 45

45 is usually not a freeway that's not a freeway no 45 is you know that's not a freeway thoroughfare that's a that's a throughway but it's not a fucking that's just a busy road you notice someone going 70 and a 45 absolutely they're flying around people the wait is over so far you're not losing the only thing you're losing is my patience quickly i see that the queen of the courtroom is back i didn't do anything you wouldn't know the truth if it came up and slapped you in the face. I see he's not intimidated by anything. I can fix that. New cases. She wanted to fight me.

Leave her. A long. Okay, so, um... This is not a so. This is a period. Classic Judy. Did you sleep with her? Yes, Your Honor.

You married his cousin. His brother. That's not him. Yes, ma Honor. You married his cousin. His brother. That's not him. Yes, ma'am. I would make a beeline for the door. The Emmy Award winning series returns. How did I know that? I have a crystal ball in my head. It's an all new season.

It's streaming. You can say anything. Judy Justice. Only on Freebie. Taylor Swift is soaring high. Her every move captured in the news cycle and devoured by her devoted fans. She's broken billboard records and made Grammys history, not to mention becoming a billionaire in the process. But along the way, Taylor has had to wage war. First by taking on a very powerful, very famous manager, Scooter Braun, and then by going up against the biggest live events company, Ticketmaster. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wondery's show, Business Wars. We go deep into some of the biggest corporate rivalries of all time. And in our latest season, Taylor Swift will shake up not only the music business, but Hollywood and the NFL.

Follow Business Wars wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Like, that's fucking fast. That's very, very fast. He was arrested about 3 p.m. April 12th and was charged. This was the first one we were talking about. That one he was charged with going 91 and a 55 that's too fast and that's on i-40 which goes through past raleigh if you don't know near the

research triangle park area they uh allowed him to plead guilty to a reduced charge of driving 80 miles an hour so it would be a less of a charge and i think then it would knock it down from reckless driving to a speeding and then that suspended his license for 30 days and then he got busted again uh another incident happened on october the 23rd at 3 45 in the morning okay this was an arrest here he was spotted driving at a high speed with another male companion at 345 in the morning. Again, that'll stand out. Yes. High speed at four in the morning.

No one's around. Great. But if there's a cop around at all, you're all they're going to see like a fucking idiot. So not great. They were on the Beltline near Lassiter Mill Road in raleigh behind a car containing two women so we don't know if that was like they met them at like the club and they were like yeah all right we'll follow you home yeah or if they found some women driving we're trying to like catch up to them popped up at a red light and oh my gosh look at that there's enough there's as much vagina in that car as

penis in this one look at us fucking like we would say on small town murder we got a v-hole for every b-pole look at our people look at us v-hole for every people we're all lined up everybody the ratio works let's go follow them did i just say that did i just say oh absolutely yeah you do that all that when you're a kid though oh absolutely yeah you do that all the time yeah as a kid the same amount of age as much dick in here let's do it he's 21 so it's still in the phase of it's not uh murdery or creepy or stalky because if you do that when you're 38 yeah and you have like other 38 year old guys and you follow a group full of women that means they think you're going to murder them because you're in a murdery phase.

But if you're 21, that could be like, yo, what's up? Hey, talk to girls. There's four of them. There's four of us. Follow them. Do it. But you're not following them like to their house. You'd want to follow them, like see if they are going to like a party or a bar or whatever

the fuck. Yeah. I don't know where the fuck you're going to like a party or a bar or... Tasty freeze or whatever the fuck. Whatever the fuck. Yeah. I don't know. Wherever the fuck you're going. Wherever you hang out. But it's way less creepy then as a teenager because teenagers just look for each other. But this is different. He was going about 75 miles an hour there.

Yeah. Is that creepy though? Is that a little weird? That's what I'm saying. That makes me think... But if you're chasing us at that high rate of speed... That's what I'm saying. We don't us at that high rate of speed that's what i'm saying we don't want to fuck you because they're following so that means either the women wanted to drive 75 miles an hour in a 55 which is possible somebody just

might have a lead foot or they're running from charles shackleford either i'm not sure which one not positive about that but either way it's not a great situation um so anyway that these are all the problems he's had essentially here um he's he's got a lot of issues but on the court that year he starts 30 out of 31 games i think one game was a punishment he didn't start plays in 30 minutes a game again and uh 16.6 points per game this year 9.6 rebounds great and uh yeah about a block and about a steal a game so he's upped his points three points a game every season and his rebounds just went up two whole rebounds this year so averaging a double double that's incredible almost base if you round up he's averaging 17 and 10 which is pretty good that's yeah exactly what you're looking for

he is the uh he's the first team All-ACC that year. First team All-ACC tournament as well. So not too fucking bad for old Charles Shackelford. The 1988 NBA draft comes around. First overall, Jimmy, 1988 draft. 88. Dominique. Way late on Dominique.

Now, he was winning the dunk contest by then. All right. An 88? Jesus. Actually losing it to Jordan. Who would an 88? I don't have a problem, too. Danny Manning.

Well, that's a good pick. He's a good player. He's a solid player. I don't think that's number one. That's exactly right. Danny Manning is a very solid NBA player player but not a number one overall draft pick doesn't stand out not like that this is a weird draft like that has a lot of guys who you go hey that's a good kind of a second tier player but not a star like danny manning first rick smith

second overall giant uh indiana pace or seven foot". They went to Marist College, exactly. We have Charles Smith, number three. Not the Charles Smith we did an episode on. The other one that couldn't hit a goddamn layup for the Knicks when it mattered. The leader of the players organization, I think, right now? I don't know about that, actually. I'm not positive. I think he works at the Union.

I think he does. Yeah, maybe. Good for him. He's tall. I don't know. That's all. I'm not positive. I think he works at the union. I think he does. Yeah, maybe. Good for him. He's tall. I don't know. That's all I know about him is he's tall. He can't hit a layup. He would fight PJ Brown in a minute, though, which I liked about him.

He would fight anybody. That guy had an attitude. Well, he was on the Knicks in the 90s, so you had to be. Yeah. That was anybody on the Knicks in the 90s, they were like, all right, more important. We're going to break practice into two sections. First half is we're going to shoot and play and run and do all that sort of stuff. The basketball orientation.

Second one, we're going to put the pads on, and it's time to throw down with some fucking jujitsu lessons and elbows. There you go. You want to follow through the punch with the elbow. This is how you're going to get maximum capacity. One shot. I want two knots with one shot. This is how you're going to get maximum capacity. One shot. I want two knots with one shot. Let's go.

Chris Morris, number four overall to New Jersey. Remember him? Fuck. Not a star here. Not great. Average 11 points a game in his career. Mitch Richmond next, number five. Great score, Mitch Richmond.

Great play. Great. Hersey Hawkins, number six. Was he with the Kings? Did he get drafted by the kings golden state drafted oh yeah yeah and then he went there uh hersey hawkins to the clippers number six again so far mitch i think mitch richmond and rick smiths are the two best players out of this probably otherwise a lot of second tier guys yeah i mean hersey hawkins

rex chapman yeah good players ronniecli, all these are like good players, but not star of your team. Rex Chapman was a monster in college, and they really thought he was going to be so much better than he turned out to be. When he came in, because he was in the dunk contest, because I'm going to talk about that, the 88 dunk contest from this year, Ronnie Cycli, number nine. Again, Willie Anderson to the Spurs Cadillac. We'll do an episode on him as well.

Will Perdue, the doofiest, goofiest of all the goofy white bull centers of the 90s, making Bill Wennington look cool. That's hard to do. Not easy. Shoulders. Yeah do not easy shoulders yeah not easy not easy to make his hairy shoulders look cool but purdue did it with that dumb shit floppy hair that he had yeah with his fucking wannabe christian latiner hair yeah uh harvey grant not even horace grant harvey grant his brother goes to the bullets number 12 dan marley number 14 yeah see all second tier like one-time all-stars all these guys fucking gary grant yeah it says seattle after that i really wanted rod strickland

again like good player but not a great player what a weird fucking draft this is vinnie del negro goes to this draft and then also uh in this draft is Charles Shackelford, drafted No. 32 overall, which is second round, by the New Jersey Nets. Okay. So there you go. Bad time to be a New Jersey Net. Not a good time for the New Jersey Nets.

By the way, No. 47 overall that year, Vernon Maxwell. Okay. So there's that. Go back and listen to that episode and then number 50 is steve kerr in the second round so yeah last guy the second round i'm gonna say so he's drafted he goes he goes to college now he is drafted by the new jersey nets he's officially going to be he signs with the nets pretty quickly the nice you know signing bonus and all that. Not a lot of money back then for a rookie, as we'll talk about. But, you know, he's got a couple of bucks now. Grace.

That's fuck, huh? That's Grace, yeah, for him. It really is pretty much downhill from here. Well, you can't expect to have an outstanding, I mean, you can expect to have an outstanding career in New Jersey because it's so fucking sad there. Any sort of effort should make you a pretty big star in New Jersey at that time. They're looking for something, but they just didn't really have a fan base. You'd have to kind of make a fan base. Because I was a kid back then in New York, and that was like the last option of what to put on.

Like if there's a Nets game on, there's a Knicks game, okay, you're looking for this. You'd watch, well, you wouldn't watch hockey first, but you'd see who the Nets were playing. You'd be like, well, let's see who they're playing anyway. Watch the Devils, I'm not sure. Yeah, this is not good at all. But nobody bought a fucking Nets jersey back then. I think Derek Coleman made New Jersey Nets sales uh I think I think he just helped British Knights I don't even think he helped the Nets though because

I'm telling you I was they weren't even on the radar if a kid like a kid growing up in New York at that time the Nets weren't even an option you might as well have liked you know Indiana or anybody else like they weren't they weren't even considered a New York team. They really weren't. There was the Knicks, and then, isn't there another team? Oh, yeah, but they're like New Jersey. Who cares about them? They had the state of New Jersey in their logo. Like, what, are we going to fucking root for that?

No. Fuck out of here with that. So, not a popular team is what we're getting at. And a lot of the Jersey people liked Philly. So they really were kind of a... It was a much cooler Jersey. South Jersey. Philly was a good team for years before that.

They had Dr. J and shit. All these people. And now you're going to have... It's just weird. Now you're going to have... So then Northern New Jersey is dominated by the Knicks in the New York market. So really they were squeezed pretty, pretty tight.

Then they had this sweet period where the Knicks are terrible for 20 fucking years and it gave them an opening. Very lucky. All you have to do is be the joke of the league for 20 years and it makes your city kind of open for competition at that point. Very nice. So to give you an idea of how different money was back then as to what it is now money now guys are signing steph curry makes 40 million dollars a year wow 40 million dollars a year

like think about that the guys are making salary yeah there's a lot of guys making over 20 million dollars a year now for the further services here so you know the pay scale is now commensurate with the whole all the deals and all the every sponsors it's because it's worldwide too that's you're not realizing that there's you know 800 million people in china literally who are interested in the nba like more than like three times our country amount of people are interested over there and the shit so fascinating the money and buying jerseys yeah the money in the league is a way different thing now than it was like there it's a it's a license to print money you don't think that fucking one dude would have spent billions on the clippers if right there

wasn't a license to print money on the other side of that shit so great point the in the 88 season very different put it this way the dunk contest and remember i sent you the screenshot of this right i was while i was working a couple weeks ago i had uh like youtube shit i'll have like old stuff in the 1988 dunk contest came on and by the way it's the all-star weekend which used to be so much fun to watch awesome well this dunk contest is it comes down to essentially Dominique Wilkins versus Michael Jordan in a dunk contest. It's fucking incredible. It's silly. It's silly.

It's like you're watching guys. You're like, wow, like they're not even real. They're like just busts in the Hall of Fame. And they're actually like in the prime of their athletic prowess. Jordan's Duncan from the foul line. Fucking around on a weekend. Dude, Dominique is doing that reverse dunk where he takes the ball down to his fucking feet while he's in the goddamn air. And then fucking reverse dunks it and almost takes the rim down.

It's fucking incredible. And for this amazing feat of... They're literally the only two men on the face of the earth that can do what they're doing. The prize money for this was, first prize, $12,000. $12,000! First prize, Nissan Maxima. Not for charity. No.

For their pockets. For your pocket. Second prize, $ 5,500 bucks the difference between winning and losing is seven grand yeah then it went down to fifth prize which was a grand that's what i mean like nowadays they wouldn't pay an nba player 12 grand for anything they'd be like what is this like that's not money what i don't even know what to do with 12 000 then it was different the salary structure put it this way we said steph curry making 40 million in 1988 zero players made more than four million dollars a year not four million not 40 four zero made zero uh in the three to four million dollar range three players made that

three top top players in the nba that make the most money there are three that make over three million nobody over four that's it uh two to three million dollar range three wow so there's only six players making over two million dollars a year in the entire one of them making over four million none none and 36 players which i mean sounds like a lot but not in the whole league make between one and two million dollars a year and the league minimum that year a000. That's the league minimum. Average salary, 321 players in the league. The average league salary, $528,011. Ouch. I think it's like $7.5 million now is the average salary.

$6.5 million, somewhere in that range. Yeah, there's only 12 guys on the goddamn team. So you're making all that money. We can have a guy making $80,000 a year sitting on the end of the bench worrying about his car payment there were guys in there when they're yeah that they were back then but now it'd be you know i got four kids my wife's kind of sick and she had to you know she had to quit her job and now we're struggling over here like like my jumper's not falling that's why well fuck my, fuck. The private school, the kid's school is breaking my ass for tuition, coach. I don't know what to do.

I come home from work at a basketball game, and my wife asks me if I'm done with my hobby yet. Yeah. And when am I going to get a job? Yeah. So, fuck. Help me out here. Oh, shit. So, here are the top 25.

I won't go through all of them. But top 25 players salary-wise, because I find this just fascinating. This isn't sports. This is just cultural, whatever. Highest-paid NBA player. Who is it? Highest-paid. Patrick Ewing, which makes sense, because he was the number one overall draft pick in 85, and he was highly sought after.

Does that make sense, James? At the time, yeah. And timing-wise, yeah, because when came out he was he had all the leverage so yeah he's a big man that's the start of his career there are guys in 88 that are huge fucking stars right he's in his fourth year and he's been a huge star since his first second he's been in the league but when he came out being the number one draft pick and all that he got to really just think about how dominant georget was. He was the center of that team. So, I mean, he was looking. Magic Johnson, number two.

Magic Johnson is in the NBA in 1988. And they've won several titles and their Showtime Lakers and all that shit. Three million one hundred forty two thousand eight hundred sixty dollars. That's a goddamn joke. For Magic Johnson. Literally a man whose name is Magic. Holy shit. At the time, NBA's all-time leading scorer, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

Yes. Three million even. All-time leading scorer. He's in movies. He's, you know, as known in the sports world as anybody on Earth at that moment in time. He's an airplane, for Christ's sake. By two names. People know him by two names at that point.

Yeah, which one? Yeah, they remember two different names for that guy. So this is the crazy part. From $3 million, those are the top three, okay? Wow. And that is a center in the biggest media market at the time, New York, whatever, trying to make a splash. So that's one. And then two stars of the Showtime champion LA Lakers, who, again, that's Hollywood television.

There's a lot of money there. Those are the top three. A big man in the other biggest market in the world. And the all-time leading scorer also. And then from there, it drops from $ million to 2,038,000. Holy shit. And that's Robert Parrish of Boston, who has some rings himself at that moment in time. Kevin Duckworth, 2 million even.

Kevin Duckworth. You remember, think of a guy who I haven't mentioned yet. Yeah. Can you think of one? Yeah, that guy. That's where he is, tied with Kevin Duckworth making $2 million a year. Ridiculous. $2 million a year is an obscene amount of money.

Don't get me wrong. I would love to make $2 million a year. And in 1988, that's worth way more. So $2 million a year, great money. But no, you'reael jordan that seems like what the fuck is happening peanuts yeah peanuts ralph sampson making 1 million 960 who yeah good player ralph sampson but not michael jordan fucking finally a couple other players you might not have remembered me saying larry bird who again is the it's like Jordan Bird magic.

These are the faces of the league. One million eight hundred thousand bucks. Kevin Duckworth makes more than you. Ralph Sampson makes more than you. How do you like that? Tom Chambers makes the same as you. One million eight hundred thousand. Then you got a key Malajuan who big man, dominant, great player.

One million six hundred seventy seven thousand six hundred sixty six dollars. Akeem Olajuwon, who, big man, dominant, great player, $1,677,666. He makes the GDP of the country he comes from. Yeah, probably. At the time, it probably was. So Alex English, Danny Manning, $1,650,000. Jack Sikma in there. Who? Yeah, Milwaukee.

Jack Sikma. Charles Barkley, $1,536,000. Making less than Jack Sikma. in there who yeah milwaukee jack sigma charles barkley 1 million 536 thousand dollars making less than jack sigma staggering moses malone 1 million 500 that's the end of his career dominique wilkins the human fucking highlight reel the thing that anybody gave a shit about atlanta hawks basketball at any point back then that's all it was if you said the hawks people oh dominique wilkins everyone loved dominique wilkins one million five hundred thousand dollars for neek wow joe barry carroll terry cummings buck malone buck williams carl malone one million three fifty child fucking carl clyde drexler the glide himself one million two hundred thousand

dollars making less than bill cartwright the bull center this is staggering yeah that's what i mean the top the number one team payroll the highest team payroll back then lakers 10 million six hundred ninety three thousand eight hundred sixty dollars that's all they were paying ten and a half million dollars for an entire basketball team the most expensive team the champions as a matter of fact at that moment so how crazy is that that was magic kareem we're and only four guys made over a million and that entire team doesn't make a fourth of what one point guard makes in fucking Golden State. Whole team.

We're talking Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, James Worthy, Byron Scott. There's Hall of Fame in there and rings everywhere. Yeah. And they make together. Steed. All together. So you could have the 88 Showtime Lakers or you could have a quarter of Steph Curry. Steph Curry's leg.

Steph Curry's left leg or the entire 88 Showtime Lakers. That's your option. Holy shit. That's wild, right? That's fucking crazy. That's what... You could have 20 Michael Jordans or one Steph Curry. That's what being money from half court will get you.

That's crazy. Every ball he puts up from half court just goes in. That's a designed play. That doesn't make any fucking sense. But you could have four teams of Michael Jordan for the same amount of money. That's pretty good. Four whole Jordan teams. Fresh.

Coming off. Five Jordans. All pissy sweaty stuff curry shoes oh man or just a pair of shoes so the 8889 nets are fucking terrible and that's a one of the things that uh will follow charles shackleford is in the whenever he's in the nba every team he's on is fucking god awful he's just not a good not good uh the nets here under willis reed who's a great player but apparently not a great coach they go 26 and 56 that year ugly uh he doesn't do too well here he plays in 60 games he starts none of them plays in 8.1 minutes a game so he's a rookie and they're bringing him in slow

back then he came out a year early he only after three years of college they looked at him as like behind you know we got to bring him along slow yeah he 3.1 points a game so not the best not the best he does make 150,000 dollars that year okay which he's thrilled with he said that was he needed money league minimum you make him more than league minimum and he's fuck 150 grand a that was he needed money league minimum you make him more than league minimum and he's fuck 150 grand a year is good money in 1988 it's not you know millionaire money but he's making better money than he ever had or anybody in his family ever did so he's very excited that's what he had he was saying i only say that because he said that

he's like nobody in my family ever made 150 grand a year that shit was great so uh 88 80 or 89 90 they are even worse than that's there's 17 and 65 oh which is fucking terrible uh under coach bill fitch not any better bring willis reed back jesus you can't break 20 wins no that's sad dude if you can't break if you can't break 20 you can win 20 games by accident in the NBA. Yeah. Just going on like the other team is coming off the road back to back, and they're just, you know, those games where they lose 96% of them. You win 20 just on those.

A couple guys are injured on the other team. They're not really trying. Somebody's got a paternity suit. You've got to try to lose that many it's tanking almost or you have to be god fucking awful and that's what they were uh mookie blaylock is on that team sam bowie is on that team um chris dudley is on that team yikes yeah uh anthony mason's on that team and he's a rookie though he's a rookie these are all young guys at this time too yeah he's a rookie jaron jackson was going to say, these are all young guys at this time, too. Yeah, he's a rookie. Jaron Jackson's a rookie.

All these guys are. A lot of these guys. Mookie Blaylock's a rookie. So they're pulling. And I think he was a free agent because he went to Midland College in Oklahoma, if you remember from our episode there. Yeah, these aren't a lot of great players here. He has one game this year where they go okay he's a future star he absolutely dominates this game it's february the dates are important by the way here february 20th 1990

is like his high point this is really his grace in the nba right here he he scores 23 points and 26 rebounds in a game against the Bucs. That is dominant Wilt Chamberlain numbers. That looks great. The whole paint is mine. You're not getting anything near it. In the zone tonight. Yeah. You can't beat that shit.

So that's February 20th. So they're thinking, the know the nets are thinking fuck maybe he figured it out we got something here and then uh what eight days later eight 28 days uh so march 1st uh he has some problems he uh he's arrested here and it's a bullshit arrest i'm gonna be real honest with you here i hate these bullshit arrests he's pulled over at 5 25 in the town of orange in new jersey no no 5 25 p.m so middle of the afternoon here uh they pulled him over acting on an informants tip a quote informants tip right that uh saying that there was drugs being transported through the town in this car.

It's a black 1989 Thunderbird, which one of those long ones, too. It's a fucking sick car. Things are like a bullet. I had one. Those are cool as fuck. I had the Super Coupe. It's a V6 Supercharged. Watch out, bitch.

What year? 92. 92? Yeah. That was the one. Was it a turbo? Yeah turbo one yeah it's a whiny ass there's a fast car it's built on the on the uh chassis of the mustang it's the same motor as the mustang it just happens to be a little family car it's huge and long and like floats yeah remember you'd be like flying it's like you're fucking yeah yeah it's a it's in in between two worlds that car that's what i remember it's fast as shit and so comfy you

don't know what you're doing slow down grandma that's what you that is a very i don't know why they did that with that car and then sold that shit to grandmas everywhere i think that's why they discontinued it for a while after that and then they came back like the old timey one so they received a tip that the man in the thunderbird would be holding drugs yeah so they pull him over okay yeah and they search him hell yeah and the informant was right. He does have drugs. He has a nickel bag of weed. He's got a fucking nick, dude. You guys, he's got a joint.

One blunt. That's one blunt. That's what a nickel bag. A decent nick rolls you a blunt. That's what you get out of that shit. It's like half a gram, three quarters of a gram if it's a real fat nick big huge oh look informers we got it we set up a whole network there was an informer and they spent time on this to take down a nickel bag who the who the fuck said that too who called

up snitches on a nickel bag man A nickel bag, man. A nickel bag? That's such an insignificant amount of weed. It's not even like, it's a joke amount of weed. Remember King of New York, the movie with Christopher Walken, when he's saying how he wants a piece of everything, and he goes, I don't care if a nickel bag gets sold in the park, I want in. That's how insignificant this amount of anything is. No one cares about it. If the cops put that on the hood

to do to do their thorough search if the wind blew they'd be out of their evidence oh shit i'll get that gone yeah if it was on like live pd they'd have to really zoom in to show you even what it is it's so small this rolls a fucking blunt's worth he's charged with uh possession of less than 50 grams of marijuana can What? Can we have a... Because that's like the dividing line. Can we have less than three grams of marijuana, like less than an eighth clause? Because that's ridiculous.

Less than 50 grams. 50 grams is less than a gram. Way less, sir. Less than a gram. You should be charged with way less than 50 grams. Remarkably less than 50 grams. 50 grams. We have not even close to 50 grams of marijuana.

Is that a charge? Embarrassingly under 50 grams of marijuana. It's so fucking ridiculous. The police also called the arrest minor. It's a nickelback. We were annoyed by that. They said they got a tip from an anonymous informant who said that he would be transporting drugs. He didn't say weed.

The informant said he'd be transporting drugs through the city. So if you pull them over. They're looking for keys of coke in the trunk. Yes. They're looking. Oh, he's trafficking. And they're like, we find. Oh, you have a nickel bag in your fucking change pocket of your jeans.

Your fifth pocket. Yeah. Perfect. That's where they found it they got down to the last little fifth pocket maybe there's uh weed in here or drugs in here are you kidding me that little bag we didn't think people put weed in those little bags uh also in the car was a woman another man and two kids as well they crammed the fucking thunderbird full so there was yeah three in the

back seat with the kids none of them were arrested obviously there's not enough weed in this car to get three people high there isn't it really isn't especially back then it's dirt weed right street dirt weed they said uh the the uh one of the police officers said quote we have a drug problem in the city and this is just another arrest around here this is usually a fine this charge results in a fine if it wasn't him we wouldn't even be talking about this right now like this is it's a nickel bet it's a nickel stupid no one gives a shit including me and i'm a cop i don't care is what he's saying he was there he was at the uh he was at the uh police station for an hour so there was was that. The car wasn't his either, but it was not stolen or anything. It was somebody's.

He was driving. The police officer said, quote, he didn't say the marijuana was his, but he was very cooperative and very polite. And we had no problem with him. Sometimes the informant just doesn't know how much of a drug is being transported. Well, clearly not, I would say. First of all, let's stop using the word drug here with a nickel bag of weed. It just sounds so silly. It really does.

Like a helicopter swarming above all this shit. There's a nickel bag on the hood. What are we doing? In 1988, you just chastise your son, and then you take that weed and smoke it yourself in the garage. Yeah. They say, I learned it by watching you, Dad. And then you go, that's right, motherfucker.

And you take it from him. Watch this. So that's bad enough. OK, that's I mean, it's stupid. But the NBA is pissed off at it because it's bad publicity. And then two days later, something worse happens with him. And then two days later, something worse happens with him. Allegations by ABC News that Shackelford and three of his teammates in college took part in points shaving during the 1987-88 season with a New Jersey businessman named Robert Kramer, who they said gave $20,000 to Shackelford, who then distributed the cash to his teammates who were in on the scheme. So, by the way, if you don't know what point shaving is, because some people might not know, obviously, like if you throw a game, you know what that is. You're losing the game.

Point shaving is the way to do that without people knowing about it. Obviously, ideally knowing about it, obviously, ideally knowing about it. Basically, you get the W, but you did some things for other people to get the W for their pocket. It's a point spread thing. Let's say NC State is favored by 15 points, and you bet on the other team, so you're betting that NC State will win by less than 15 points. So let's say in the fourth quarter, NC State's up by 18 points. Maybe you throw a lazy pass that gets intercepted by the other side,

and they have an easy fast break for a bucket. Maybe you don't quite hit that jumper. Maybe you miss a couple of foul shots. And that shit, when you're up by more than 10 points, just looks like, oh, they're taking it easy because they're up a lot. Because that's human nature. It's garbage time, so they're lazy, and that's's what's going on everybody acts like that in garbage time when in reality you're just making sure the point spreads in a certain area there you go and the only way because if you read how all this shit gets found out they never ever ever ever ever

ever ever even have suspicions or find out from the actual play on the court right the only way they bust this is they look at the gambling they look at the bet volume and they look at changes and anomalies and when bets came in who they were on and if they see there's this giant weird thing and then during that game charles shackleford is lazy with a bunch of passes in the fourth quarter then you start to put two and two together and it adds up. So that's how they catch. But it is. It's catchable.

That's why they do it. Someone pretty much has to admit to it. You know, that's that's what which is not hard. If you catch bookies somewhere and arrest them, then you you know, you hold them up for get them to talk. This is what the shit they talk about because it's a bigger operation. Usually the mob is involved in this or that sort of thing. So while Shackelford did admit to receiving $20,000 from Kramer and $45,000 from an agent named Larry Gilman during college, which did violate NCAA rules, he said he didn't shave any points, though. I took the money, but I didn't shave points.

I just took money. So, yeah, this is a weird thing here. They said they shaved points in the March 6th, 1988 game against Wake Forest and in as many as three other games. So a total of four games, they're saying. They were favored by 15 points, and they won by four in the game in question. So against Wake Forest. That does look shitty. But it's also a rivalry game.

It's Wake Forest, NC State, so it's a rivalry game. Anything goes. Anything can happen there. But I will give those people that give the spreads a lot of credit because it is amazing how close they are, how much they nail it. It's what they fucking do. It's what they do.

It's wild they really can can get it down to a fucking science so if you don't know when crystal pepsi was discontinued what was in al capone's vault or which famous meteorologist is lenny kravitz's second cousin then you haven't spent enough time on wikipedia but that's okay i am here for you i'm darcy carden and i'm inviting you to listen to my new podcast, WikiHole, from SmartList Media. Discover the craziest rabbit holes on Wikipedia with me and my funny friends as we bring the cyber frontier directly to your tympanic membrane. And if you listen to my podcast, you'd learn that that's the science-y term for eardrum. We embark on a hyperlink rollercoaster as we start out on a Wikipedia page and go from link to link to link to link, careening through trivia, oddities and unexpected connections until we collectively shout, how the hell did we get here?

Follow WikiHole on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to WikiHole ad free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Listen to WikiHole ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. So, I guess one player was quoted but wouldn't be identified over this. And the sources all say that the Kramer guy, Robert Kramer, the New Jersey businessman, was the mastermind here. He's the guy obviously making the money. He, Kramer, denied knowing of any point shaving or even gambling on college games of course my goodness i mean maybe an office pool or two i'll i'll buy a square on the old super bowl pool but i do the squares come on i'm not a i'm not a gambler here

yeah he does admit he gave shackleford about twenty thousand dollars during and after the 87 88 season he said the money was a loan and that Shackelford repaid it. And he's like, it's no problem. He said, quote, point shaving? I think that's totally ludicrous. What do you mean? So Valvano, the coach, was really pissed. He said these are devastating allegations.

He denied knowing anything about anything. He said, of everything that's taken place this has by far been the most disconcerting for me to deal with both personally and professionally it's devastating to think that a player would violate such a sacred trust yeah but here's the other part he said that he had to take 20 grand and divvy it out amongst other players so he's got so he's admitting that he took the 20 grand but then he paid it back so he's paying back everybody else's money too no no he's saying he didn't give the money to any of his teammates he's saying that guy just loaned me 20 grand and i paid him back it had nothing to do

with point shaving and no one else got any money meanwhile there's other teammates going yeah i got money for point shaving from charles shacklesford through that guy right so yeah it's it's pretty fucking it's pretty silly here shackleford saidford said, quote, I was the person identified. I had a good game. I had like maybe 18 points and 14 rebounds. I did the best that I could do. That's the other thing on a stat line. It doesn't matter because you still had to build up. You did win the game by it's not like you got blown out by 40. That would be like, oh, yeah, you had a terrible game, but he had to have a good game to win. got blown out by 40 that would be like oh yeah he had a terrible game but he had to have a good game to win it's just in the fourth quarter you don't have to keep the pedal to the metal if you're winning that's all it is uh he said and then if you notice florida went on to beat purdue by like 18 points like a blowout or something so that wasn't a fluke that was a good team look at the stats of my performance there's no way i could throw a game so um the article also mentioned a few other shackleford things that were just shady at NC State.

One, that he was driving around in a new sports car that everyone knew he couldn't afford because he was in college. That was one of those alumni things, I'm sure, where you just go to a dealership and pick something out. He was apparently, according to teammates, was high on weed while he was playing against tampa sure which is fine that doesn't bother me there's a lot of guys that play better with weed that's it even jackson said hell he said weed every day every day that's what he was doing back then that's there's guys i was reading in the usfl book uh there's a guy because football is a kind of a different thing but there was a receiver said he was terrible if he didn't smoke weed before a game he's like i just couldn't focus i would be a mess he's i'd fuck myself all up the coaches used to go around and go do you have

your medicine today like they wanted to make sure he was smoking because that way he's good um wow a booster for the school named charles logan uh was providing players with money and diuretics to mask drug tests, making them piss more. So, yeah, just to speed it up, get it out of your system faster. North Carolina police have outstanding warrants at the time for Logan's arrest. He was a witness to a traffic accident that critically injured a four year old, but then took off and they couldn't locate him so jesus yeah uh wow they also accused shackleford and his teammate bins uh of stealing bedspreads from a clemson south carolina hotel bedspreads yeah fuck you stealing bedspreads for why hotel from a hotel those are disgusting semen encrusted bedspreads do you want a a rag full of another other people's semen a variety pack of you barely want to use that

bedspread for one night no you know what i do when i come in a hotel i grab it and i take it off and fling it on the fucking floor and kick it into the corner because it's disgusting they don't wash that part every time. So goodbye, see you later. That touches none of my shit. Even if it doesn't have the load shot onto it. Don't care. Somebody had it on their hands and touched that. I guarantee it.

It hasn't been washed, so fuck off. The first thing I take it, I throw it like it's, like they put just a pile of used condoms in the middle of the bed. That's how I treat it. Get that the fuck out of here. Immediately, people sit on that the fuck out of here. Immediately. People sit on that shit and like lounge on them.

Like, ugh. Touch that. Put their feet on it. Yuck. Ugh. Gross. Hanging out in there. Yeah.

So they did all of that. Also, they were saying that they used to like cut. They used to cut their. During their preseason training, they had to do like these long runs and some of the guys would like cut through just as a joke though this was oh like jogging they do a shortcut they do a shortcut

and then would when the other team when the team would pass and maybe stand there taking a piss like where the hell were you guys we were over here pissing yeah damn another thing they'd run the Rosie marathon the Rosie Marathon. The Rosie Ruiz they pulled. That's all it was.

Players would steal each other's basketball shoes to sell to friends for 40 or 50 bucks a pop. That's kind of shitty. So you'd be like, where are my 18 and a halfs? Right. And your teammates stole them to sell to his cousin son of a bitch what 40 bucks for 40 50 bucks because i mean they probably stink because they're you know they've been sweating in them playing ball yeah i don't know how much you're gonna get for him but still that's terrible um also uh four of the players five of the players ran up a $550 dinner tab at an Anchorage hotel during the Great Alaskan shootout, signing the bill to the athletic department.

So that's kind of funny, honestly. That would be an NCAA violation, too, if they didn't get him in trouble for it, if the school actually paid for that. Radio announcer, Jesus Christ, this is just not even right. They're making, why is this newspaper article bringing this up, that their radio announcer was so overweight that he couldn't squeeze himself, he couldn't fit into an airplane restroom, couldn't get in the door. Why is that in the newspaper? I don't understand why that's a bad, I won't say the guy's name, poor bastard.

If he was that heavy, I'm sure he's dead by now. It's been 35 years, but still. That's name, the poor bastard. If he was that heavy, I'm sure he's dead by now. It's been 35 years. But still. That's a fault of the team? That's what I mean. I don't know how that's a fault of the team. He's the radio announcer, not the athletic trainer. You know what I mean?

I could see if it was like the conditioning guy. Do they, as a prank, Uber Eats McDonald's to him every day until he got that big? I don't know what they're doing. Apparently, Shackleford was notorious for selling his complimentary tickets the players all get some complimentary tickets he would tell the coaches that that yeah that's my uncle sitting up with my tickets and it would be an older white man and charles is you know not a white man so yeah that's my uncle and it would be like clearly this like business old white old businessman sitting there like how's that your uncle in an nc state shirt in an nc yeah just in a button down he uh he but he would do it all the time i guess sell his tickets he was famous

for that which is not allowed obviously but i mean hey they don't pay these fucking guys i would be selling my tickets to pay me tickets to every single game and fuck man that's the thing also one of the this is just funny a teammate of his said that shackleford's breath could quote melt car tires so because he was drunk or didn't brush i don't know either way not something you want to get in front of apparently yeah holy shit so uh they he does not arrest it or anything like that but this is an ongoing investigation and point shaving is a crime it's a federal crime it's not that's not a uh you know it's not just a leak an ncaa violation that's like in love after lockup i knew it was a rule i didn't know it was a law

that's one of those do me i knew it was a rule i didn't know it was a law that's one of those do me i knew it was a rule i didn't know it was a law that fucking i just finished that season it's so fucking good it's the best it is we're far not even close the best season of it ever next small time murder bonus episode we're gonna review this season of love after lock up because it was fucking it was phenomenal it really was phenomenal i want to kick that doug right in the dick doug needs a kick in the dick doug kicks himself in the dick he repeated but he's happy about it that's the problem he needs someone to just repeatedly kick his dick that guy's an idiot i'm sorry oh and anissa and that guy with no teeth whatever i'm just gonna miss that

kurt i don't know who the fuck he is i'm gonna kick him in the ball shack how does he have half of his upper teeth gone and then on the bottom side half of his teeth also gone but like they're reversed he's got right tops and left bottoms which is shit because it would be way easier to eat if he just had a whole set on one side and then it would look like something must have happened on that side okay i get that but this looks like what the fuck is this this is a fashion thing what are you doing it looks like it was done on purpose it's not good like when people shave shit in their eyebrows it's like that sort of thing and deontay's got his fucked off and he melts down he smelts it on a lake oh come on jimmy you've never seen a a tiny sex doll sized coffin before a custom-made tiny sex doll coffin

that's burned on a lake like a fucking yeah his friend fucking fabricated that for him that's what i'm saying he made a custom a cut that his friend by the way everybody needs that guy it's so good i want to go i want to go no places without him and stephen jackson by my side because those two are the most down for you cool motherfuckers so fun every day we'll make a new story that we tell everybody oh it'd be so much fun so uh apparently in school also somebody wanted him to stay in school uh there there was a oh my god all sorts of people here were all in his shit people were trying to pay him money to uh get him into school or to stay in school basically there was alumni had their interest in keeping him there and then there's agents and shit giving him money to fucking a declare for the draft so he could

make some more money so he's being pulled in all these different directions he's finally introduced to uh salvatore defazio sounds very hey sally sally defazio he's a lawyer and he meets uh shackleford through bob kramer the guy who gave him the twenty thousand dollars he says i knew bob for only a matter of a week or a few weeks before he introduced me to charles actually it was somebody who knew bob who introduced me to bob who introduced me to charles in an effort to convince him that it was in his best interest to stay in school and to continue his education and so forth he's not even going to class that's ridiculous um so that that ended up being the bob kramer who was given money so it's all a whole bunch of uh a whole bunch of shit here and nba scouts and everybody had

shackleford in if he if he waited till his senior year to come out they had him projected as top 10 pick the next the next season. He was going to make that next step. But, you know, they said that would have increased his bargaining power by a lot. But Shackelford said he needed the money in 1988. He needed the money. He said he got a loan from a bank once he signed his contract to pay back the money that he owed to people. Wow.

contract to pay back the money that he owed to people wow this was to make sure that in my opinion allegedly that it looked like it that make sure that now it's a loan rather than a payment for point shaving you know what i'm saying so now one i was alone and it was repaid what do you mean so that saves that saves everybody's ass that's like that did you see have you seen that lady and the dale documentary no it's i think it's on hbo max it's fucking remarkable i don't want to see the dale lady and the dale the dale was a car in the 70s or an attempt at a car in the 70s a three-wheeled vehicle who made it dale was the name of the company and i can't if i say anything it gives away everything and this thing is nothing but surprise after surprise after surprise it's fucking crazy but eventually the

whole problem with the dale was they had taken in all this money and they were the government was investigating them for fraud because they hadn't produced the car so they were trying to get a car into production asap because if the car's in production, then it's not fraud. Then they're just a shitty company that might build a shit car or whatever, but they're building what they said they were going to build and it's fine. But if they get busted before the car goes into production, then it's fraud. So they were like

racing to get it in production. That's kind of like this. It's like, well, if I pay it back, it's a loan. If I don't, then I could be in trouble for it. So before I get charged, I have to pay it back. Somebody better looking at Elio's because those things were supposed to come out their three wheel car also yeah they're supposed to come out like five years ago well this was supposed to come out in 1975 the 76 was supposed to be the first release date for the dale and it was like it was a cool looking car it had like uh it looked like some sort of weird prototype or it was like kind of sloped down in the front and had two wheels in the front and one in the front one

in the back it was everybody is trying to make that car happen and it will not ever fucking happen no people are people like four wheels generally we're used to it but that this car this was in the 70s when the you know there was gas around the gas lines around the block they were claiming that this car would get 80 miles to the gallon. Same thing with Elio, 65 miles to gallon. Yeah, they were saying 75, 80 miles to the gallon back then when it was like, holy shit, that's all people want. It was gas mileage.

So this thing would have probably been a mild at least success if this whole thing wouldn't have happened. But check that out. That documentary is nuts. It's on HBO, whatever. So anybody out there. So anyway, DeFazio said, quote, Charles met me, and I convinced him that anyone who would challenge his eligibility

while he was in school was not someone that he should be involved with as an agent. I suggested he get himself involved with one of the better-known agents or someone with a history of ethics and scruples. And a few weeks later, Charles said, if I wanted somebody with ethics and scruples, why not you? Couldn't you just represent me? Yeah. So Sal was like, I guess I can. Look at that.

Sal said that all of the $60,000 in payments were eventually returned to the two people who gave it to him. And he acknowledges that those were uh violating ncaa rules but um you know that's not a crime and fuck off basically so uh shackleford said quote i looked at myself as being a lottery pick i thought for sure i'd be a lottery pick but i knew there were a lot of assumptions and that's part of the reason i left NC State a season early. He wanted to get out before all this shit came out also. And in that draft, anybody could have went anywhere because, honestly, we just read you. They were all second-tier players.

There was no clear-cut, you know, these are the top five guys. It was kind of a anything, yeah. So the police confirmed at the time that they were investigating what role that kramer guy played in the whole thing the denville township police department said they're checking on the twenty thousand dollars kramer gave because they did it in some weird like a different name like they sent it to him in the name of by the way here is the kramer guy um let me show you a picture of him yeah oh boy everybody knows the guy that like looks like that i've never seen a fatter balder man basically that's the best way to describe him he has like 12 chins yeah his head is literally a fat bowling ball yeah with just homer simpson around the sides It's really bullfrog with a, with an old man's haircut.

Wow. That is bad stuff there. That guy here. Um, so they said that, one of the councils for NC state said we did learn. In fact, we did in fact learn there were cash transfers that came from Mr.

Shackleford's agent, but she didn't say which agent. And, uh, they said nothing that would indicate gambling or point shaving occurred. That's what the school says because they don't want any part of that shit um they arrested apparently they arrested kramer at his home uh in a misdemeanor charge of possession possessing marijuana and uh now kramer

then moved and then a fire damaged his home this guy seems shady as fuck that's weird before his arrest um they found uh record show a denville detective found a quote white lined paper with the names of sports teams in kramer's garbage can so he's a fucking gambling guy that's all there is to it he's probably a bookie maybe yeah yeah uh when asked whether the investigators found betting slips in his trash, the detective said, quote, no comment. So, yes, that's what that means. Probably. They said Kramer is under investigation. We're certainly giving him some extra attention.

There's a possibility of Mr. Shackelford being included in this. So apparently this Kramer has been like he was charged in the 70s and 80s with a bunch of bad checks. Then he graduated to assault with a deadly weapon. Oh, Jesus. And obtaining property by false pretenses. So stealing and being violent. Generally, he said that he couldn't determine all this other shit here. 83 Kramer received a suspended 30 day jail sentence and was ordered to pay several thousand dollars in restitution to a contractor whom he had failed to pay.

A lot of shit like this. He has a history of high-stakes gambling. The Tropicana Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas sued him for not repaying $10,000 in gambling debts he ran up in July of 84. He agreed to repay the money, but he wrote three checks from an account that he had already closed yeah no interest in paying now he owes the irs 58 700 in 1987 personal income taxes and he last the last year before that he paid 30 000 to retire federal tax liens for 84 through 86 so he's got 87 uh he was uh arrested in september like we said with the marijuana and the uh the piece of paper they found and then october a fire caused

two hundred thousand dollars in damage to his four hundred twenty nine thousand dollar house get into financial business with this guy's stat asapAP. This guy has it all going on. He's being sued also for money from other people. In 87, he met Shackleford through the mutual friend, a guy named Jamie Fountain, who was a state employee who lived near Raleigh. And at the time, Kramer was looking for tickets to NC State games. Shackleford gave him tickets to a few games,

and he said they became friends after that. Fast friends. Or just pals, just good buddies using complimentary tickets. He said during the 87-88 season, he loaned Shackleford about $6,000. After the season ended, Shackleford lived briefly in the man's home. Oh, shit. So he's saying, I don't know anything about gambling or point shaving meanwhile he's living in the guy's house who has betting slips in his fucking garbage allegedly so

you you play sports this guy is interested in gambling on sports and you would never ever have that conversation as you pass each other in the hallway and then you're then you're drafted by new jersey which is where this fucking guy lives, too. Come on, man. Where Atlantic City is. Let's be honest. While he was there at the home, he borrowed another $14,000 from Kramer, bringing the total to $20,000. And they paid him back when he signed here. Now, investigators who are investigating this said they saw cash transfer wires to Shackelford in 1988 from Kramer.

So they're saying they're lying about the $6,000 lump sum and $14,000 lump sum while he was living with him because there was wires to a man from a man. Now, this wasn't in Kramer's name. He didn't send it, but he sent it in the name of George Shackelford. Yeah. So, like, it's a relative of his. So, the authorities subpoenaed the sources and all this sort of shit. Charles Shackelford, they looked for George Shackelford. They couldn't find any George Shackelford around.

His father says that Charles Shackelford's father says that he doesn't know anybody named George Shackelford other than a 76 year old first cousin. Yeah. Who hasn't the family really hasn't talked to in years and years and years. So there'd be no reason for him to be sending him tens of thousands of dollars from a place he doesn't live because he lives in. Yeah. And he's 76 and lives in North Carolina. a place he doesn't live because he lives in yeah and he's 76 and lives in north carolina he said uh they talked to that george shackleford he said he hasn't seen charles in five years and never wired any money to anybody in his whole life so i sure could use some money but if you want to wire some to me that'd be terrific he said uh he said quote i wish i could because i

wish i could give him money, but I can't. So George Shackelford, yeah, this is just a made-up name there, they think here. Dan Shackelford, his father, said he knew of only two men who wired his son money, and that was Larry Gilman, an agent, and Kramer. And, yeah, he said, quote, George Shackelford, located in New Jersey, sending Charles money? I don't know who in the devil that could be. No, I don't think Charles knows any George Shackleford.

Then he said, I have a cousin that's 76. Dan Shackleford, Charles's father, said, quote, We can't sleep. Every time we turn around, we see something new on TV. It's got the whole family all upset. My wife hasn't been to work in two or three days. Pissed off off damn it um so they said that uh this is all gonna go on for a while here uh about did he have an agent basically is he gonna get in legal trouble because of the point shaving and will the school be sanctioned

because of violations and point shaving this ends up uh valvano ends up having to resign in the end due to all of this shit that comes down onto him so there was a book written called personal fouls yeah which is a pretty standard name for a basketball expose i would say but there's 11 of them 11 of those we know there's like three loose balls out there this is uh only two written by nba players yeah only two uh peter gollenbach wrote this book and uh he says this uh this is a university whose reason for being is basketball and anyone who cares about education has got to take a back seat if somebody were monitoring what was going on with the basketball program you wouldn't have this but the faculty critics are

being stifled by the administration. So they said that in the book it comes out that a mid-season decision to let Shackelford play during his freshman year was he had low grades and SAT scores. He wasn't qualified at all to be anywhere near the school. Shackelford was suddenly allowed to play in the sixth game of the season against kansas after the wolf wolf pack had gone two and three in their first five games because they needed him yeah and the book says that quote someone high in the college administration had to give him permission to play and they'd had to reverse some other thing that

would have taken a lot to do they said uh athletes must go to class or they don't play. There was a resolution in the college to pass that, where if they don't go to class, they can't play, and it was killed by the administration. They didn't want that rule. Of course. They wanted to have the flexibility, you know, to do that sort of shit. If they fuck up, that really fucks us, so let's get rid of that one.

Yeah, let's kill that off. So Charles here, let's get into his whole statement here. Let's do it in their own words. What do you say? What do you say we do it in their own words? Because he feels bad about being given his school a bad image. I don't want to be a big old bag of bitch. No, let's see.

In their own words quote i am sorry for all the embarrassment this has caused to my family my friends and my teammates i am also sorry for the trouble it has caused for north carolina state university coach jim valvano and the nets organization i hope that from here on out people will judge me on what i do on the basketball court and not what they have read in the newspapers. Oh, poor thing. Poor. He's so sad.

He's such a poor man. Please, please identify me only for that. He said, I never shaved points at North Carolina. He said, I did take money from an agent. I was young and I was poor. I was offered money and I took it. I borrowed money from another person because I thought that was my only way out what i did was wrong i know that i paid both people back almost two years ago i don't say that being young and poor is an excuse for what i did but it's a reason why i took the money yeah and if you paid your fucking players yeah they wouldn't have to take money from people

that's the whole goddamn point jesus christ uh yeah he said he was uh he felt bad but he was poor and he needed the fucking money and i know what do you want from me basically that's it i don't know he said he asked for a press conference because he wanted a chance to comment on what's been in the newspapers and then he goes into all that i never shaved anything i never did anything um he also says quote i don't know anything about the book the the personal fouls book. They asked him about it. None of that stuff ever happened when I was there. Maybe it happened after I left. He said, whatever the author heard, he didn't hear the truth.

He's just going out trying to make some money, trying to make a big deal about something that's not really there. Maybe he's got a vendetta against coach Valvano. Maybe, or there's just a bunch of shady shit going on here. There's the Western Union transfers for $400 each. Those are the George Shackelford ones and all that kind of shit. Anyway, the Nets have a statement. They're going to get silver on this here.

And they said, quote, The issues that have arisen concerning Charles are two that the Nets are opposed to on all grounds. We deplore any attempt to infringe on the integrity of the game of basketball by any type of gambling or point shaving. This type of behavior would destroy a great sport. At the same time, the proliferation of drug use in this country has become our worst social problem. We abhor drug use, and because we are familiar with its horrible effects, we will not condone

the use of any illegal substances. We are strong advocates of the NBA's drug program and support it 100 percent. That's great. But then they're like, and who cares, though? We're not going to punish Charles at all. So, yeah, they said this brings us to Charles Shackelford as a member of the New Jersey Jets or New Jersey Jets, New Jersey Nets organization. Mr. Charles Shackleford, as a member of the New Jersey Jets or New Jersey Jets, New Jersey Nets organization. We want to go on record in support of him, not knowing all the facts surrounding the allegations made against him. We stand by his side and will not make any judgment until all the facts are presented and judged accordingly.

Did we mention he's tall because he is? He's very tall. We could really use him. We could really fucking use him. So this is I'm sorry. I'm not angry at a fucking player for taking money from an agent because he's broke. Fuck that shit. I'm sorry, man.

That's ridiculous. And I never feel bad about that. And they shouldn't feel bad about that. And the school that tries to make them feel bad about it later because they get sanctions later on. No. Fuck you. Yeah. Sorry. But you were getting free labor.

That's later on you had to pay for it. Sorry to tell you that. So there's an article here from a real asshole. The newspaper's called the Nashville Graphic. And not Nashville, Tennessee, Nashville, North Carolina. Yikes. Small town shit newspaper I'm sure doesn't exist anymore and maybe that's for the best considering that this asshole wrote for it he says he's just really

really hates charles shacklesford here jackalford this is a quote from his article quote valvano will probably go it's too bad a man who a man has been forced out of a job by a fanatical newspaper and a couple of associate professors. That's not what justice is all about. When Jim Valvano leaves, it will be a case of the good being defeated by the bad and the ugly. It will mean politics rules our college campuses. Charles Shackelford, who is apparently a thoroughly rotten individual, who has ruined his own life through the use of deceit and drugs will have taken with him a slew of innocent victims. And if he's allowed to do this, it will be a sad day in the annals of college sports.

He deceit and drugs, Jimmy. He had a nickel bag and took fucking 20 grand from a fucking agent when they were paying him no money. Just a rotten individual. Thoroughly, you would say that about a child molester or something. How fat and unathletic is the person that wrote that? Oh, horribly. You'd say that about like Bernie Madoff,

a thoroughly rotten individual robbing people of their life savings. Deceit and drugs. Makes him sound like he is like basically fucking uh avon barksdale like what are you talking about deceit and he had a nickel bag i guess i guess the guy whoever wrote that is seeing that a nickel bag is the tip of the iceberg he's clearly got kilos and absolutely of weed if he's got a nickel bag. While kissing Volvano's ass like Volvano doesn't know shit's going on in his program.

He just wants to win. It's fucking ridiculous. It's honestly shocking. It really is. It's surprising and shocking. But not as shocking, Jimmy, as the sales. Yeah. Oh, my God.

So many sales this week. I found, oh, boy, you got to get geared shocking, Jimmy, as the sales. Yeah. Oh, my God. So many sales this week. I found, oh, boy, you got to get geared up, Jimmy. You got to go down to Famous Footwear. Oh, yeah. Where they have a big L.A. gear sale. Let's get it going, Jimmy. L.A. gears. Women's private dancer low tops.

You know you need a pair of those. I'm sure they have them in an eight. Yeah, my mom popped up and bought me those instead of of british knights oh those are not the same at all la i don't they weren't those i don't imagine they had were they the ones with like the the tongue that was like split with like pink in them and shit like my mother had to do like aerobics class in 1988 they had velcro over the tongue i do know that nope anything pre-air max charles barkley that's not cool to have that i'd roll up through the fucking through the mud and those things just to get rid of them you would yeah i would get attacked by a dog just to get rid of those things

i told my mom they wear out quick get a different kind you know because they're made for aerobics not outdoor activities also uh they're made for um bullying and ridiculing a fucking 12 year old they are they're good for that they're good for you know what these are for building character they're called character la gear character builders that's what they're called i know what my underwear tastes like because you bought me those shoes mom thank you thanks a lot I know how far it stretches over my head to my mouth as well. You can get some of Via's women's aerobic shoes here for $32.99. Some Reebok's men's Newport classics for $36. Probably those boring white just, you know, old guy shoes.

Kangaroos. Get your kangaroos kids aerobic high tops $20.99 or men's velcro joggers $19.99 if you're a man wearing velcro kangaroos while you jog i don't want to talk to you i just don't i would have rather had those than la gears though probably at least they were yeah you're right at least they weren't made for aerobics right because they weren't made for a fucking aerobics class for a for a spin class so warmers and a fucking pair of leotards oh definite leg warmers go with those now you take those shoes and you take your special someone jimmy yeah take your special someone, Jimmy, take your special someone down to the Hyatt Regency Hilton Head

oceanfront at Palmetto Dunes. Jesus Christ. I've stayed there. No, you haven't. I swear to God. At this hotel. My honeymoon was on Hilton Head. Are you fucking kidding me?

I swear to God. This is your honeymoon hotel? Of all the fucking hotels I've picked, a doomed marriage is honeymoon? The inception of a doomed marriage? This is where we are? That's where you go to ruin it all. Wow. Did you get this package that they have?

I'm going to read it off. Let's hear it. Wow. So they don't need to advertise. It's already worked on Jimmy. Word of mouth. I'll tell you all about it. Savor the ultimate romantic evening with someone you love well right away right away there's an issue there you're about to hate i'm finding several problems with the with the lead run away

to romantic hilton head island and treat yourself to and someone you love to hyatt's enchanted evening which is by the way a board game that you play it's like a sexual board i'm not kidding you get the board game it's got a picture of it and everything i think fuck i didn't play that you didn't play a sexual board game on your honeymoon your intimate evening in our luxurious accommodations is highlighted by a chilled bottle of champagne to enjoy while you play one of the most talked about board games in years an enchanted evening yeah this is the game italicized of love where both players win we even we even include a special do not disturb sign to make sure ensure uninterrupted play do not disturb i'm trying to get a blow job but i have to like i have to win it evidently i have to win

this blow job real quick and the regular do not disturb sign doesn't work as well we need really everybody to know we're fucking in here and that's why you can't come in we're not just in need of privacy we're playing a fucking game that the hotel has deemed a way to get some spice back into our marriage thanks a lot do not disturb i'm trying to make you earn your housekeeping money tomorrow listen if this game doesn't get me a blow job no one's getting any tip my whole shit is in your hands of your game the game and sign are your gift to take home and enjoy you can take your do not disturb sign to your house. Oh, boy.

Special extras that can be added to your stay include breakfast in bed and a private dinner in your room, both served by waiters in formal attire. Oh, thank fuck for that. I don't care what you're wearing. Drop it off and take a fucking hike. I'm trying to win a blowjob. Drop it off nude. Get out of my room. I am.

Yeah, whatever. You want to stick a finger in my butt, too ahead i don't give a fuck this game has four pieces you're welcome to play too join in any housekeepers down there we got room for a fourth hi it's enchanted evening is available at a special rate of only 129 dollars per couple any night, Sunday through Thursday. Rates haven't gone up. Rates are still the same, huh? From 1989? Yeah.

Also, from there, you can head on down to get a bunch of, holy shit, this is hilarious. You can get a radar detector here. This is a shirt pocket-sized radar detector for $129.95 down at Radio Shack. Or you can pick up this sweet mobile CB radio. Sweet, a CB for $49.95. And you can take that. I don't know if you can call them on the CB, but if you're home and you don't have anybody to play that game with you can call some ladies to play that game with according to this article uh the most beautiful girls in america by telephone oh yes speak live one-on-one 24 hours a day to new

jersey's most beautiful people which just makes fucking guidettes with huge hair yeah hello what do you what do you want from me what do you want you want something i'm not taking my bra off it's expensive and i took a long time to put on you're gonna come take it off get the fuck out of here you scumbag i'm hanging up on you yeah it's it's 12 for that you fucking asshole i'm gonna have my fucking brothers come kick your ass how's that sound you fucking piece of shit no that's that's what you're getting hot 1-900-654-MEET what does that number again 1-900-654-MEET gross 9.95 for 15 minutes so you got 15 minutes to shoot to fucking blow your load here and then you get recharged for me yeah no it's a meaty but unfortunately i did i watched a documentary on the people that used to run those in the 80s or 90s on hbo i assure you they are they sound like they're the hottest uh people of

the of the neighbor they are not those no anybody can sound. Yeah, we sound good. It doesn't mean we're... He's got good mics. Yeah, we've got great mics. That's all it is. March 9th, 1990 is weed court for Shackelford here. His attorney acknowledges that it was his marijuana, and he was clarifying it, and he's fine. He doesn't even enter a plea under the terms of a new state law

that allows first-time offenders to enter a pretrial program. And he gets like, you know, it's basically probation. If he doesn't get in trouble, he'll be fine. Suspended 60 day probationary period. So that's all he's got. No big deal there. Sherry White, the NBA's assistant director of media relations, said the league has no guidelines for handling marijuana or arrests at this point none she says marijuana is not covered under our drug policy no it does not count as a

strike against him we're monitoring the situation we have no fucking idea there is no investigation we're monitoring it keeping an eye on it she says she said uh that they're monitoring that they're monitoring the uh point shaving as well. So Nets coach Bill Fitch, who had a goddamn 17 and 25 record or whatever, he said that he, quote, didn't know what to think of Shackleford's troubles. He said, I've only known Shaq for a short period of time. I hope his life is not as messed up as it's been made out to be. But until something is proven, it's just an if. out to be but until something is proven it's just an if he said i have compassion for shack but at the same time i want to kick him kick him in the butt for being more stupid or being so stupid yeah so shackle for that year starts 37 games 70 games played here he uh scores 8.2 points a game

and 6.8 rebounds. That's ugly. It's ugly, but I mean, you know, he doesn't play that much. But he ends up not, his contract's up with New Jersey and they do not re-sign him. So he goes and plays in Italy in 1991. He moves to Italy for Fonala Caserta and he scores 19.7 points and 15.8 rebounds. Mad competitive over there. Yep, leading the league in rebounds, and the team won the 1991 championship,

which is their first title in the team's history. The championship is a pinky ring for the Italian team. It is. It's over there. It's a pinky ring and a cannoli subscription. It's the cannoli of the month club, and they you a different one there's like a chocolate chip sometimes they're like you know they got some powdered sugar on them you never know a lot of different things going on there so uh he moves to uh does all that july 10th 1991 he signed as a free agent with the philadelphia 76ers because he did great so yeah that's what i mean you go over there you dominate they go okay maybe you figured it out so he signs there

and they needed a center because they needed some rebounding uh this is his first year there is going to be charles barkley's last year there so he plays with barkley for a minute uh they said after a very thorough investigation there's no no question that Charles Shackleford is the right player for our team, is what the GM said. He is a proven rebounder and could be one of the best in pro basketball. We look at this as a perfect marriage. He can play in this league. We think we have a real winner. He got to play with Charles Barkley and see how rebounding is really done.

Yeah, just pay attention to him. His agent said that it looks good. You know, it's fine here. And Shackleford was believed to be making over a million dollars a year from this. And we'll talk about it. Fantastic. They said they're confident his past is behind him. The owner said that he felt the year in Italy really helped mature Charles, who even got

married last week so you know he's being mature because you know when things are going well yeah you get married and that's fucking say those vows and then he went to that hotel for his honeymoon and it all fell apart the coach said one hot mama's though because that bar is legit oh boy he the coach said we did a thorough check on him going back to his high school coaches, and he said that I think everyone deserves a second chance. He's a good kid. He said, Charles said, this is giving me a chance to come back to the NBA, which has always been my dream.

I played two years for the Nets, and that wasn't the best time of my career. I have a lot to prove by coming back. I turned down a lot of money by coming back. There's a lot of money in Europe for an import star like that. I want to prove to everybody that I can be a good player and a good citizen. Okay. Charles Barkley said that

he said, quote, the last time I saw him, I felt he needed to learn some things defensively. How to use his forearms in the post. How to use his legs. How to ride a guy defensively. That doesn't sound good. Oh, yeah. Ride a guy defensively.

Right in his face, man. You got to ride him. Grind on him. To move a guy out of the way. Back then, he needed to stay focused, something he didn't always do. And Shackelford said, I think it comes with maturity. I used to get mad at a coach and take it out on him and I've learned I can't do that I've matured

basketball is my job and my profession I've got to go out and play good for you, go out and shut the fuck up and get some rebounds 91-92, Philly sucks they're 35-47 nobody cares, Charles Barkley, Manute Bull Johnny Dawkins, Armand Gilliam

Hersey Hawkins, Greg Grant. There's some players on this team. Also, Jason Williams, a crime and sports alum, Jason Williams. Shotgun, Shell, and Jason Williams. By the way, he'll come back later on in this episode. So,

he starts, Charles starts 62 games for Philly this year at center. He averages 6.6 points and 5.8 rebounds a game. That's your starter. Whoa, that is not good. He made $1,332,000 for that, though. Unbelievable.

Now, the next year, they need rebounding even more because Charles Barkley went to Phoenix. So you're even hurting even more here. And they have Jeff Hornacek and Andrew Lang in that trade, right? I believe so, yeah. Not a lot of rebounding help. Lang, I guess, a little bit. But 26-56 this year they go. They're really, really fucking not good at all.

And Shacklesford said that he's having a hard time, basically. He's had some injuries going through this. And he said he's just having a hard time. He said, quote, I've got to be a strong man to go through this bleep. He bleeped himself. He said the word bleep. I'm not kidding. Got to be a strong man to go through this bleep.

All right. be an adult and say it and let them fucking edit it out they wouldn't have said shit in the paper don't worry um yeah it's it's uh he said it's a hard time for him he the next year 92 93 he starts zero games not one not one plays in 48 starts zero 11.8 minutes a game four points 4.3 rebounds oh no oh no indeed makes 1 million 720,000 bucks though for that so i can put those numbers up most people could put those numbers if anybody who's 6 10 and not in a wheelchair should be able to score four points a game you know what i'm saying i'm 5 8 i think i could put those numbers. Anybody who's 6'10 and not in a wheelchair should be able to score four points a game. You know what I'm saying?

I'm 5'8. I think I could put those points up. Probably. July 28, 1993, he is released by the Sixers. And at the same time, like a week later, the points-shaving investigation is finally dropped, at least his end of it, for lack of evidence, basically. Not closed, dropped. No basically not closed drop no not closed drop because it's they can't find no one is admitting it to it straight out so they don't

really have much to go on 93 94 he plays in italy again he rejoins the italian team he was on before gets a one million dollar contract and leads the league and rebounds over there so he can play overseas he just he can play in college he just can't play nba caliber ball he can't play it in the nba it's a different thing september 27th 1994 he signs as a free agent with yeah guess jimmy timberwolves fucking you got it minnesota timberwolves that's exactly who he signed with. That's amazing. Nice job. I almost said the Bucs. There you go.

Minnesota. Midwest. You're going for the most random team, right? That was the reason why I did that one, because it's like, how random is this? Could be anybody. Fantastic. If you said Bucs, I would have said, might as well be. Doesn't matter.

Interchangeable at this time. Cold weather? Shit fucking teams at the time. So Minnesota Timberwolves, 94-95 Timberwolves. They go 21-61, so they suck too. They do. He plays on some shit NBA teams. That team, though, in 92-93, that was a decent team, right?

They had players, but they just couldn't play well. 94-95 is when he went there. Okay. They have Howard Isley, who will be Utah's. He'll be like John Stockton's backup later on. Greg Foster, I think, went to Utah also. They must have went in the same goddamn trade. Tom Gugliotta.

Yikes. Who went to, yeah. Wait, it's at the beginning. That's the beginning. He went to, yeah. He ended up on the suns after that um who else stacy king the the ex bull christian laitner is on this team coming in donyell marshall jr rider yeah it's uh it's only in a second year here so isaiah rider we have another alumni he played with another alumni and again on this team shooting guard charles smith oh no i'm sorry

that's chris smith i thought it was charles smith i was like another alumni holy shit so many alumni coming back in this one vernon maxwell we were talking about everybody jason williams let's hope he doesn't the episode's not over let's hope he doesn't touch anybody okay a lot of alumni though isaiah rider uh now this year he only plays in 21 games and then they cut him so he starts two he averages 4.5 points and 3.2 rebounds he is awful and getting worse good fuck that is so bad that's not yeah that's not getting any better no these it's almost like the european trips are making him like like weaker for nba ball or something february 27th 95 which is mid-season he is waived by the timberwolves so he's gone he made 650 grand for that year not bad not bad for nothing nothing

to be useless now uh 95 96 he goes and plays in turkey he joins the turkish basketball league the team of ulkerspor yeah so then swedish you know how good they are yeah they even have an umlaut on it ulkerspor you know that works right yeah um he uh he leads the league with 12.4 rebounds a game. Wow. Dominant over there. He is also the most expensive imported player in Turkish basketball history. Is that right? Highest paid import in history here. But he is released citing three different things. One, a nagging injury. And then the team also cited a lack of motivation and, quote, unwillingness to work.

So, yeah, even at 12.4 rebounds, they're like, he's just tall. Just balls are falling in his hands. I don't know. Not even trying. So, 96-97, he plays in Greece. Goes to Aris Thessaloniki of the Greek Basket League, and they win the 1997 Korach Cup. Wow.

Well, I mean, it's every kid's dream to win the Korach Cup, I know. I know we've talked about you were really, really sad when you realized you weren't going to grow anymore, and you had no chance to grow up and be in. I had a tattoo of the Karach on my arm. That's what I mean. Well, that was because you'd never win it in real life. So you'd never have one, so now you have one, Jimmy.

It makes sense. You're just being a realist, man. I appreciate that. He had the league in rebounds again this year. Of course, yeah. He has knee surgery at the end of the year. Minor knee surgery. Cleans it up because he's got some arthritis and some shit floating around in there.

You know how that goes. 1997 here in October. He signs with us. October 7th, 1997. He signs with the Washington Wizards. All right. There we go. He's back.

Is that the first season they're the Wizards? I think it is. I really do think it is. is that the first season they're the wizards i think it is i really do think it is i think they were the bolts the year before october 17th 1997 10 days later he is released by the washington wizards uh-oh um so 97 98 he goes back to greece again and signs with the same team and uh somewhere in 97, 98, he leaves Greece and signs with the CBA, the Continental Basketball Association, with the Idaho Stampede. That's not good. So you're going really down, down, down at this point. You're this close to joining an intramural league at the Y at this point.

That's how close you are i don't have any stadiums that are big enough to have a game they have colleges they have colleges they have like idaho state boise state idaho they have colleges borrow their gym yeah i would assume yeah that's what everybody does to nba teams if they didn't boom they didn't have their own they would use a college team wow it's a startup league yeah you'd use their if it's a team that has a 5 000 seater they're only going to fill what 150 people of that so they don't really need a big arena you could probably do this in a high school if you had to you know i'm being honest here uh in 98 99 uh in the nba on the other hand remember that was strike year right so the strike lasts until january and january 21st 1999 charles shackleford is signed as a free agent by the charlotte hornets

oh wow back in the league man that's so weird in 99 in 98 99 wow uh 26 and 24 record which is actually over 500 it was a 50 game seasons that's the best team he's ever been on over here very impressive strike shortened hornets team and it's a it's a hodgepodge of a team too bj armstrong chucky brown his college teammate uh eldon campbell derrick coleman eddie jones the shooter from Miami. Remember him? Ricky Davis. Fuck. Chuck Person. Jesus.

Eldridge. Eldridge. Rekansner. Just all these guys. J.R. Reid. A real hodgepodge of guys. It sounds like they picked NBA players out of a hat.

Yeah. And that's what they ended up with. There's like no rhyme or reason to that team. It's after the Hornets imploded everything and got rid of everybody. Oh, yeah, yeah. This is a rebuild. This is after Larry Johnson went to the Knicks and Mourning went to the Heat. All these guys went. Golden State, I think, at this point.

It's not. Yeah. I think that's where they got Eddie Jones was the Mourning thing, I think. So they got him. That would make sense. Maybe not, but it would make sense. So 98-99 uh team he plays for the charlotte hornets in 32 games starts four so a little something averages 3.3 points and a uh

a total of four rebounds per game that is bad that is not fucking good so uh once he's done with that season he tries out for about eight to ten teams somewhere in there he bounces around trying out for about everybody in the league about a third of the league and uh no takers fails to land a contract so he has to do something else with his life um so he decides to go and testify at the ray caruth murder trial that's where he ends up with he is part of the rake this guy's tied into everything it's so weird he is part of the ray caruth murder trial he is at the time in north carolina at the time well that and he's also having an affair on his wife with one of the women that ray caruth was having an affair with uh as well so that's that's uh that's an issue there's the

smith woman was it sharika smith i believe her name was here i'm fine yeah sure oh no sharika adams is the victim candace smith is okay candace smith is girlfriend. That is Ray Carruth stripper girlfriend who Charles Shackleford was then hooked up with after Carruth. Okay. So Shackleford long game. Oh, I would say. Yeah. Shackleford's 18 and a half, buddy.

That's long. He, uh, Shackleford was married at the time and he's having an affair with Smith. Uh, obviously, uh, he met her at a strip club in charlotte where she worked as a dancer clearly um now the prosecutors were trying to figure out what her role in the whole thing was and what his role was because he will find out there's a phone like a chain of phone calls that involves Shackleford here and beeps and all this shit on the night of the murder. So, oh, my Shackleford, he said he was playing for the Hornets while this was going on in Charlotte. Same as, you know, Caruth was with his Charlotte team.

uh, the, at the whole thing, Candace Smith told him what Caruth told her during the 99 shooting, which was Smith had testified that Caruth said that he planned to shoot Adams who was pregnant with his child. Smith said on the stand, quote, he,

uh, he said he basically confessed to her at the hospital about what happened is what Shackelford said about Smith. So they bring him up to corroborate that she told him about that too and didn't just make it up later on. So it's sort of like corroborating hearsay type of thing. So Shackleford, he also testified that Smith had told, that Carruth had told Smith that he had something to do with whatever happened to Sharika is what he testified.

She he said that when she told him this, she, quote, seemed a little bit afraid. She had tears in her eyes. And that's what they said. So he ends up coming for cross examination by defense attorney David Rudolph, who I watched this whole trial, and I've watched a couple of David Rudolph's trials because he's the staircase lawyer as well. And he's such a good lawyer, very thorough in all of this, but he's clearly a fucking New York guy who is in North Carolina practicing law,

and these motherfuckers are not listening to him. He could tell you there's proof of this and this. And they're like, I don't like the way he said it, Yankee. Like, he has no chance of winning cases. I saw Ray Carruth, by legal standards, probably shouldn't have been convicted. There was really not a lot of evidence other than Van Brett Watkinsins who was as crazy as a fucking human being could be literally seems like when you watch 30 rock a tracy morgan like tracy jordan character going off the deep end and tattooing his face that's van brett walkins every day but with no street cred

i'm wayne brady i'm wayne Brady. So that's what's going on here. This is a fucking mess. Rudolph is defending him and having a cross-examination of Shackelford. His early questions concentrated on what Shackelford knew about Smith's relationship with Carruth and when he learned about the shooting. He admitted that he nor Smith wanted to be involved in the case against caruth because they weren't real cooperative with the investigation but after caruth fled to tennessee following the death shackleford said he hired an attorney for both himself and smith because he didn't know how that shit was going to go down so that's what the

defense is trying to say maybe it was you that felt guilty because maybe she had one of the theories was maybe this candace smith had adams killed because she was jealous because she wanted to be with ray caruth and part of their this prosecution saying no the saying he she had moved on and was with charles shacklesford now charles shackleford god that's hard to say yeah and uh it's hard to say fast yeah so um the uh he was he sat there and uh took it on the on the lawyer on took it on the chin by the from the lawyer he had to admit on national television shackle for dead that he's had a one and a half year affair with uh a with the stripper candace smith

his wife is sitting at home just like, you motherfucker. Like, my God. Imagine that. Embarrass me on national TV. National TV. The stripper that you're banging. Right. That was the headline of the day was, you know, Shackleford's been banging the stripper for a year and a half. He did appear composed on the stand.

He was just thinking about what was going to go on at home. Sure. Oh, boy. It's going to be bad. I about what was going to go on at home. Sure. Part of the way. This is going to be bad. I think she's going to hit me for. Yeah. Smith said she admitted to dating both Caruth and Shackleford at the same time as well. Clearly.

And he also brought out phone records showing this is the lawyer showing that Smith, Candace Smith was at the hospital where Adams was being treated for the gunshot wound. OK, Gray had her meet had her meet him there. She called Shackleford's pager five times the day after the shooting. So they're saying, what was she telling you and all that? The record showed she paid. She paged him three times before

the police interviewed her and then twice afterwards uh so they were wondering what's up with that shackleford said he didn't recall anything about the paging he didn't know he said that uh he is married and then they went into were you paying for shit for Candace Smith? And he was like, yup. He refused, would not or could not estimate how much Shackleford had spent on Candace Smith's rent, car payments, and other expenses. Wow. But he did say that thousands and thousands of dollars would be accurate. Yeah. While she was with the other one, too. Car payment's expensive.

So is rent. Yeah. Fuck. she was with the other one too our payment's expensive so is the fucking so's rent yeah fuck um he said that they only dated for a couple months but they still talk on the phone and he has feelings for her and then the year and a half thing came out so that wasn't good he also asked shackleford if he knew that candace smith was dating caruth and repeatedly calling caruth and going to caruth's house during the time she was dating Shackleford. He said, no, I didn't. So this was not an open relationship or anything. He also tried to show that Shackleford wasn't certain

about when Smith told him about the claims about the confession, just tried to muddy those waters, basically. Before the cross-examination was ended, he said, how long have you been married? And Charles Shackleford said, quote, what has that got to do with anything? Long enough to where she can be pissed when she hears all this. Well, Rudolph said, sir, you were having an affair. Do you think it's honest to cheat on your wife?

And so he said, I guess not. And then they had an objection and sustained it and all that sort of shit. And he did say that he had he just heard from sure that Candace Smith, that Caruth had something to do with whatever happened to Sharika. And that was the end of it. 2002, he is arrested in Marion County, South Carolina, Charles says, for writing a fraudulent checks. So by now he's not paying for strippers' rent and car payments. Sure wishes he had those thousands of dollars back. That's what I'm saying.

He's writing bad checks. He's not doing well. He's got a lot of bad shit going on here that he's not happy. He feels like a misunderstood man. He really does. He feels misunderstood. He says, maybe it's me. Maybe I need to get my life back on track if only someone could

help me just get out of my mind my body i need to get my body get healthy again and he ends up finding the perfect person to guide him and get him back on a on a physical and spiritual track and it's adam arugula connoisseur jones adam jones pac-man arugula connoisseur Jones, Adam Jones, Pac-Man, Arugula Connoisseur. And he says, he has no music, so he just comes in and he shows up and he says, how is it you've come to arrive here, sir? Yeah. Sir, listen, if there's ever a man who's been railroaded besides myself, sir, it's you. It's you. I'm sorry.

I mean, yes, strippers, fine. You're allowed to go out with strip. You're a professional athlete. Why else do you try out for the team, man? We do. That's what we do. Number one. Number two.

I mean, so what? So what? You're writing some bad checks. That's not a problem. You're hanging out with people who hang out with murderers. So what? Is that a problem that we should all be worried about? I didn't think so

you know i've been thinking about it you're misunderstood that's all it is you're misunderstood even you're you really you really have 10 rebounds a game but they only count three of them because the world is against you my friend that's right and and i'm not damn it i'm on your side and i'm gonna help you and uh but i'll be back tomorrow because your life's fucked up and poof in a poof of arugula and confusion. Yeah. He's gone. And, uh, shackles for, he could really use the help.

He's like, damn it. I could have, could have used him. Fuck. So January of 2006, he has a couple of quiet years. January, 2006, he is, uh, arrested after being pulled over on the i-40 again he uh he he's 39 right now by the way he and his 19 year old girlfriend are driving go sir how the fuck does a broke-ass motherfucker who's 39 get a 19 year old girlfriend i bet she was hot too you know she was hot she wasn't amazing with a story of the glory days we'll get you fuck man like a jersey on a wall i guess i don't know what

does it i don't know at 39 you don't want to fuck a 19 year old though no that's what i mean but he apparently does that makes him feel like he's important i guess or like i'm in demand right the younger generation still wants to blow me is he still married at this time too i think he is yeah yeah he is uh he's got kids too a bunch of kids popping out he uh 9 30 p.m he's driving on the i-40 when a state trooper clocks him going 87 in a 70 so i'm not the end of the world here uh they pull him over chrysler it's a champagne colored chrysler 300m yeah which is what you get when you used to have a Rolls Royce and can't afford it anymore.

And you're like, what's a shit car that looks like it could be a nice car if you were squinting. Yeah. Yeah. A broke man's Bentley. They he was pulled him over for speeding, asked to search the car, and then Shackleford gave consent. asked to search the car and then Shackleford gave consent. And he said the police officer said he noticed a strong odor of alcohol and marijuana coming from inside the car.

He said he asked about the young lady and he said that they were dating and that the car he had recently purchased it like in the last couple of days. So it might stink like whatever. I just bought the car i and they never they never spray they didn't clean it they never spray that new car smell in there when they sell a used car i'm sure i've bought something from buy here pay here these cars are not tip top they usually just spill beer on the carpet before they hand it over it's like a it's like a celebratory thing the alignment's off there's boo everywhere. That's just how they'd sell them. He admits to having weed and a small caliber handgun found inside the vehicle as well, which is different.

He gets bonded out of jail very quickly, and they said he was cooperative and everything like that. That was nice. He said, when I stopped him, the car just reeked of marijuana, is what the police officer said. He was probably smoking. They found a bag in his pocket with 3.3 grams of marijuana here. Then they found, not small caliber like the one article said, they found in his center console a.357 Glock in the center console. Which is something then on top of that keep on searching and in his one pocket they find 3.6 grams of cocaine in there he's got more coke than we he's got coke now he's got yeah he's got he's like give me an eight ball and give me an eighth of

weed too while you're at it and that's that's what he ends up and he got ripped off too because it's 3.6 grams of coke yeah so i feel like he got that that's a fucking he got that shit weighed with the bag he said give me an eight ball and they put it in like a ziploc bag it's like three grams and you know 0.3 and i think he got fucking or not a ziploc a sandwich baggie that was i think he got ripped off there i think they were weighing that shit with the bag. So, or the cops were ripping him off on the charge. I mean, charging him with bag weight. So he was charged with all of this shit. He wasn't the driver of the car.

She was. The 19-year-old was the driver. She's charged with speeding and failing to have her license with her. She's charged with speeding and failing to have her license with her. He hires a bondsman and pays his $11,000 bond and her $500 bond as well. So he claimed possession of all the items. So as to get her released. Yeah, that was very nice to not have her have that on her record for no reason.

He was jailed. Like I said, bails everybody out. That's how it works 2006 not sure exactly uh if this is the 19 year old or who he's with but later on in the year in september he ends up being arrested for criminal domestic violence oh no first offense not good here uh later on during this though he is found uh at a bench trial trial with a judge he's found not guilty of criminal domestic violence so who knows what happened but he was charged with it january 2008 he is arrested again charged with fraudulent check writing again uh few counts of

it this is in uh horry county south carolina february of the same year now 2008 it's going to come fast and furious now february of the same year trespassing um which lead the trespassing isn't the main crime that was just to lead to the main crime which is more domestic violence damn it and they give him a first offense again because he was acquitted on the first one. Yeah. Yeah. This time he pleads no contest to the whole thing. They got him.

They got him on that. But yeah, he apparently trespassed to domestically violence someone. It's not his place. He went to go violence domestically. Yeah. In someone else's shit. domestically yeah and someone else's shit so 2009 he is arrested again for driving under a suspended license this time because he's never really gotten his license shit together that's why the 19 year old was driving when he got pulled over last time he uh this is his second offense here uh also

arrested for a resisting arrest and hindering an investigation during this as well. So he's getting a little bit frustrated, I feel like, with his whole situation. January 2010, Jason Williams, our shotgun Jason over there, he rear-ends someone in his car. Who cares, right? We're talking about Charles Shackelford. We already talked about Jason Williams. What's the difference? Well, the accident report shows about 5 30 p.m on january 23rd at 23rd avenue south a cadillac uh owned by jason williams hit a sports utility vehicle from behind

rear-ended him um yeah williams is listed as the cadillac's driver. He's issued a ticket for failure to use due care. And there's that. So, you know, the driver, Williams, didn't have his license on him at the time, but he said who he was and it matched up with the description and all that. A couple days later, it comes out that Jason Williams wasn't driving that car. Charles Shackelford was driving that car. Jason Williams wasn't even there. So he told the cops he was Jason Williams?

He was driving Jason Williams' car. How much of a piece of shit do you have to be to say, No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not Chuck Shackelford. I'm a limo-murdering asshole. I'm not a bad driver. I'm a murderer. That's what he said. Hey, I'm not a rear. I'm not a bad driver. I'm a murderer. That's what he said. Hey, I'm not a bad driver.

I fucking kill people by accident, stupid. When I have an accident, people die. You think I do this shit? What do you think? I just rear end people? No. Brains end up on walls when I'm done with motherfuckers accidentally. Okay?

Do not give me a ticket in this bronco my name is oj simpson it's hilarious because there aren't many people who could pretend to be jason williams because they pull him out of the car and go i'm jason williams they look it up and they go well you're not 6 11 that's weird you have to be 6 11 and if you were if you pulled a guy over and he said he's i'm jason williams you looked it up and it said 6'11 and you looked at him and he's 6'11 you go i've got to be the guy gotta be him right who the fuck else could it be he'd rather be that asshole than himself that himself yeah well even even with all the murder jason williams still has more money than this guy ever made in his life yeah Williams had a $100 million contract.

He had one of the biggest contracts, $90 million, $91 million. He had a property with a name, for Christ's sake. Yep, because then he blew his leg out the fucking year after he signed the deal. So, yeah. So the traffic, they found out that it wasn't Jason Williams and it actually was Shackleford. So now they issue warrants for driving under suspicion uh hindering also his hindering prosecution giving false information he's now he's got like all these charges on him yeah fucking idiot man because he didn't want to

tell him admit to the piece of shit he is because he was driving on with his license suspended he didn't want to deal with that so he's now he's dealing with this shit oh my god um he said when asked shackleford about it he said quote it was a little mix-up but we'll take care of it i live in myrtle beach and i have a lawyer who should take care of everything you were mixed up little mick i thought i was i thought i was jason williams for a minute it weird. That's how good that Cadillac is. You drive a Cadillac, you think you're a better person. That's just what it is. You see pictures of him and stuff.

You just think, I'm him now. I was hanging out with him. I said, yeah, sure. March of 2010. This wasn't bad enough. More fraudulent checks he's arrested for in Horry County, South Carolina. So a couple more counts of that. Jesus, a bunch of counts. Looks like five, six counts. It happened over a couple month period of that. Jesus, a bunch of counts. It looks like five, six counts.

It happened over a couple-month period. He just went on a check-writing binge. Holy shit, look at all these. There's so many of these. Listen, man, sometimes you need groceries. March, April, January. It's every month. That was his way of paying for shit, apparently, for a while,

was I'll just write checks that don't have any value. Very nice. July of 2010, he's arrested again this time a little more serious he is arrested in an undercover drug operation that finds him selling 150 prescription pills to an undercover officer no now you're fucked now it's all fun and games you're driving around with a little weed and even a little Coke in your pocket. I'm not condoning Coke, but I mean, hey, you know what? To each his own.

If you're not bothering anybody with it, I don't give a fuck. Once you start selling prescription pills to undercover officers, you're in trouble and you can't just say, I was just having a good time officer anymore or judge. I should say I was just having a good time for entertainment purposes or like just, yeah, that's just scum selling gum behavior and he it set up a deal uh to an undercover officer it took place and uh the vicinity of fairgrounds road in north carolina some other shit he was uh arrested transported processed all that sort of deal held on james that's like a thousand dollars yeah thirty thousand dollars secured bond and uh yeah he's fuck now that's not good at all somehow he gets out from under that in july january 2012 he's

arrested for simple possession of marijuana in richland county south carolina july 18th 2012 he declares bankruptcy it is took him this long yeah i don't know how he held on chapter 13 this long to build up the debtors i guess to know how he held on chapter 13 this long to build up the debtors i guess to have to pay for it chapter 13 bankruptcy he files here uh there and uh his life has turned into a just a mess of shit i mean you he's got a wife that had to hear about him having an affair with a stripper on national television how often do you when that comes out is the person on national television like that can't you, when that comes out, is the person on national television? Like, that can't get any more embarrassing.

I really, you have to feel bad for her and her kids and all that just mess going on. And I mean, I feel bad for a lot of people, Jimmy. But not nearly as bad as I feel for Charles Shackelford, I'm sorry, Dairy Secretary at the Cabinet Office in London. Dairy Secretary. The Secretary of Dairy for for england i guess i don't know charles shacklesford uh shackleford owner and operator of great wide dallas mavis i don't know what the fuck that is in crowley texas charles shackleford correctional officer at Southeastern Correctional Facility in, looks like Australia.

Okay. Charles Shackleford, technical sales consultant at AT&T in Georgia. Charles Shackleford, firefighter at Fredericksburg Fire in Fredericksburg, Virginia. Holy shit. Charles Shackleford, police officer. I only found this because he was getting a commendation in 2010 where in one night he captured three suspects who had just burglarized two different residences in the middle of the night and recovered two stolen vehicles and a shitload of property. Goddamn hero. So there's that guy, Charles Shackelford.

While he was doing that, our guy was pretending he was Jason Williams, was pretending to be a murderer. that our guy was pretending he was jason williams was pretending to be a murderer 2013 he's arrested again for weed it looks like and he's being called a habitual offender now yeah which is it's weed who cares it's also late to be calling he's habitually ending like a motherfucker all the time he's a habitual motherfucker let's just say that in general 2016 he's breaking another crime and sports rule moves back home oh no moves home to kinston uh by now he has four children fuck that are older two two are girls in college in 2016 uh well they came in the nba in the late 80s for christ's sake uh one boy in high school and one girl in middle school he has no

job at this point um his sister sharon said that what he does when he comes back in 2016 he starts spending a lot of time at a local church and tries to begin to put together a basketball program for the kids around town basically uh in kinston jan, 2017, he is at the church helping distribute food for the underprivileged people there. Yeah. Yeah, for the needy. His sister said that he was looking great. Everybody was looking in a great mood that day, very happy.

The next day, January 27, 2017, he goes into his bathroom and drops dead. Dead. Dead as fuck. Just dead. Did he take some of the fucking food home? Was it spoiled? Jesus.

I don't know. Apparently, he drops dead when they find him. Dear God. When they find him, he's got abrasions on his head and they think there's some foul play. But then they realize that he died of a heart attack. He had an enlarged heart and he just collapsed in the bathroom and is six foot eleven in a bathroom. It's a long way down. You hit your face on some things.

Yep. No drugs contributed according to the autopsy. He was clean for, I guess, first time in a while there. Jesus Christ. Yup, and enlarged heart along with left ventricular hypertrophy. So pretty fucked, basically, there. Toxicology results show there was no drugs, were not a contributing factor to the death.

So I don't know if he had drugs in his system or what. He had chronic pain because he's 6' eleven and played basketball for fucking 20 years so i mean i wouldn't be surprised if he had some painkillers or something but that's not what gave him the heart attack it just happened so uh they said no foul play was suspected there and uh at the funeral is that fucking crazy i know you laugh but it know. You laugh, but it's because you're shocked. It's just shocking. Surprise. So at his funeral service, Chris Washburn is one of the speakers.

I don't care which side I carry him on as a pallbearer. Which side do you want me on? I'll flip it. I'll go either way. He said, I found out in his later days here he made some big changes we both had some challenges some peaks and some valleys in our careers in life but he was doing well and we're both amphibious so i'll miss him forever uh he's got a nephew named josiah shackleford who was playing he's a tall kid too i think he's six foot six eight and a half

this kid his nephew and he was playing uh he was playing ball in high school and he ended up in uh he's playing at brunswick community college so he's doing like a juco here junior college year and i don't know if that's because of like a covet situation or if he's just building up his whatever but it's got a 40 inch vertical jump and he's fucking six eight and a half so wow zeth that's athletic it as fuck that's crazy really athletic can't get enough uh well you can visit him at his uh grave he's buried at the pine lawn memorial park in kinston north carolina yeah and uh there he is so that everybody is charles shackles for shackleford and quite the goddamn crazy life that guy led from start to finish, I would say.

He could have had a lot more, I feel like. Yeah, if he had been smart and just used his talent. Fuck, man, he was so good. He was so good. So much opportunity. I don't know if it was like a mental thing, like when he got in that better competition, he shrank. Because that happens to some people. And then when he felt like he was a dominant player, he could do it.

Or I don't know what it was. Because it seems odd that you would go from like 17 points a game to four or 17 rebounds a game to four. Right. Like I get that there's better competition, but rebounding isn't like it's a different thing. Rebounding should translate to wherever you go. No matter where you go, right. Usually a good college rebounder, if they're a good college rebounder, they go, well, that'll translate right away to the NBA.

If a guy can get into the boards and bump around, we can get boards. So I don't know. It's a weird fucking thing. But either way, there he is. And also Jason Williams, Vernon Maxwell, and Ray Carruth, and a bunch of our other alumni. Washburn and J.R. Ryder. Oh, yeah.

Washburn, Ryder. Everybody showed up today. It was fucking wild. So Arugula Jones was there. Everyone was there. I don't understand. Everybody came through. Everybody came through.

That's how that goes. That's Charles Shackelford. If you like that show, get on whatever the fuck you're listening on. If there's a way to rate, goddamn rate us five stars or eight stars or a thousand stars or how many fucking stars you can rate give it to us god damn it so uh help us out there also listen to the other shows on the network check that out other shows on the network game of crimes uh is amazing these two guys have wild stories. They have tons of guests. You'll have everything from some investigator that had some big, giant federal investigation,

or you might have a hitman on one week who's live from a Colombian prison or some shit. You never know what you're going to get from this crazy good stuff, wild stories, and life after happy face also. A unique take on true crime for fucking once and good stuff there melissa moore her father of course unfortunately for the world was the happy face killer uh jesperson there and a very bad guy doing bad things doing bad things yeah but she

puts on a hell of a show and her partner dr laura petler as well those two they put on a hell of a show so listen to it. Game of Crimes and Life After Happy Face on our, it's our network. The Upside Down Digital Network. We did that. Also, us, damn it. We head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. We have all the merch, all the tickets to live shows if they fucking happen.

We don't know. But they're on there. You can get them if you want them. And you'll have them when they do happen, damn it. You'll be the one sitting there. So do all of that. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports. Holy hell do we have just so much good stuff on Patreon.

We just put up a couple days ago some serious gems. First of all, we talked about the malice at the palace. What? The documentary. We talked about the documentary and the actual occurrences and who we think was a shithead in that whole situation i'll give you a hint that smug bald twat who throws a fucking cup is uh top of my list yeah he's the worst that guy's not far behind him oh he needs a yeah he

he you want him to get punched when he gets the difference is that charlie got what he what he what he paid for he got the the cash the check was cashed that that his ass bounced uh the other fuck didn't get his comeuppance and that absolutely absolutely man and on small town murders and you'll get access to everything if you're anybody over the five dollar level small town murders episode was uh was wild what the hell did we do on that small town murder small town murder was the uh just fun uh yes the conspiracy theories the crazy conspiracy theories that were fucking amazing we talked about drunken people discovering the loch ness monster and hillbillies that don't deserve the the technology that's at area 51 area 51 and just a bunch of harmless ones nothing that

anybody will shoot anybody over something that like you'd argue with like you're somebody at thanksgiving but you wouldn't leave and never come back you'd you know then you'd watch football afterwards it doesn't matter fun shit so you find about about all that stuff really really fun stuff patreon.com slash crime and sports right now today for that and And you'll get a shout out, which is coming up in just a second here. And that's because, damn it, we're appreciative. And if you just want the shout out and to, you know, have our undying love and affection, you can do that over at PayPal as well using our email address, crime and sports at gmail.com.

Right. And if you want to follow us on social media as well, we are at Crime and Sports on Twitter and Facebook, at Small Town Murder on Instagram. That said, damn it, I think it's time to hear the people. Tell me these people, Jimmy. Rear-end me with them and tell me that you're somebody else. Hit me with them right now. This week's executive producers are Jordan Bennett, James Hertz, Ten Can Dan.

He jumped on Patreon, Ten Can Dan. My man, Ten Can. Enjoy the content, brother. We've missed you. Julie Cargill, Ann Leskinen, and Andrew Bailkey. Holy fuck is that hard to say. I heard it in Shackleford.

Thank you so much, you guys. Thank you. You're unbelievable people, and I hope that you get everything you ever wished for, Thank you so much, you guys. Thank you. You're unbelievable people, and I hope that you get everything you ever wished for because you've done it for us. Other producers this week are Peter Stone, Justin Avi, and Kristen Haliko.

Jessica Daniels' husband, Ryan, had a birthday. Happy birthday. Happy birthday. Corporal Carl Kirshner. Spencer had a birthday. I don't know. There's no last name,

but Spencer, your family said happy birthday. Happy birthday, fucking Spencer. Colored by Moe James Marder. Darren Mehal has two tickets for STM and CIS. Both of our shows at the Tempe Improv for November.

He has two tickets for sale. Fingers crossed, fucker. They can't make it. Find Darren Mehal on the internet if if you want to buy him from him. He should join a group and put him up in there, probably. Yes, do that. Douglas C. Niedermeyer, Sergeant of Arms over in Omega House, James. No, we know that. That's very nice.

Booger Johnson, Liz Vasquez, Peyton Meadows, Thomas Smith, Jennifer Ward, Jennifer Visconti, Sarah Surridge had a birthday. Happy birthday. Happy birthday, Sarah Surridge. Emil Gudalger. It's a super difficult last name. There's no way I'm going to say it. I apologize.

Sherry Tunt. Get well soon, I guess. I don't know if that's a joke or not. Janice Hill, Pixie DeLeon, Frank the South African Birdwatcher, Paul Ruest. Where you been, Paul? Hey, there he is. Tamara Sumer. Paul Ruest. Where you been, Paul? Hey, there he is. Tamara Summers. Tamara?

Tamara. It's Tamara, right? I think so. Summers. It depends on the person. Right. Key Bump. I'm going them both ways.

Eric Rodriguez. Matt Zick. Jude Kendall. Spencer. I always had the happy birthday. And Nancy Weaver, obviously. Thank you so much. That guy, Pete.

Dan from Australia. I think that's uh ten can dan jessica talmo uh charlotte riggs tamara burns zachary weaver don liberty i think i said that garden stakes alex sartoga jessica jesse childers uh kyle cooper chase wayne seth with no last name the real maury uh tim with no last name dominic toludo uh Tim with no last name. Dominic Toludo. Courtney Schmitz. April M. 1815. Cassidy Isaacson.

Isaac's son. Holly Basava. Pops Peterson. Michelle. Michael. What is that? Frank. I don't know what that is.

David Washburn. Amanda Hicks. Sarah Pevic. I i am not amphibious philip nugent page with no last name or is it whore do we revert do we go back to whore we go back to whore i think elizabeth they'd have to hear it last week though to know what we're talking about matthew webb nicole nicole brie bonnie yurkes uh karen karen phillips maggie overly Yerkes, Karen Phillips, Maggie Overley, Jake Leash, Tyler Evans, Jeanette Jones, Kendra S., Benjamin Kotrus. God damn it. Oh, this is brutal.

Neil Price, George Noonan, Steve Toohey, Caleb Trusty, Holly Williams, Noah Richardson, Shannon Wright, Megan Hoare, Sidney Ho, Tierhe Thorsen, Holland, Tim Tebow. If you're just listening, one second. If you're just listening, this is your first week donating and you're just listening to the shoutouts for the first time. Someone's last name was Hoare last week. H-O-A-R. No other way to say it. So we decided anybody who had no last name, we just give them a last name of whore. So that's why you're getting that.

Brandon Whore. No insult. Brandon Whore. Congratulations. Kelly C. Whore. Lydia Whore. Catherine McKay. Bridget Brown.

Tara Durney. Benjamin Bowenhurst. But what? Blust. Oh, that's not even close to Bowenhurst. Sarah Huntinwhore. Huntinwhore? I close to Bowen Hurst. Sarah Hoare. Hunting Hoare. Hunting Hoare? I swear they did this for that.

Shane Hoare. Alexis Barnes. Jennifer Hoare. Jason Frederick. Cassie Erland. Lauren Diane Verhoff. Emma Steele. Natasha Flansburg.

Danny Marie. Scorn of Medusa Hoare. What? Scott Brenner. Aileen B. Hoare. Kelly Heck. J? Scott Brenner. Aileen B. Whore. Kelly Heck. Jody Pruitt. Oh, boy.

Robert DeVar. Angela Harden. Coral Orso. Kane Bates. Angie Given. Elizabeth Bosselman. Christina Ramsey. I'm taking them, Angie Given.

Delia Angelia. Oh, boy. Delia Angelia. Oh, boy. Delianglia Padilla. Tracy Thompson. Felicia Clifton. Allison Capiello. What?

Capiello? Capello. Dylan Gagnon. Gagnon? Gagnon? Laura Johnson. Kathleen Williams. Valerie Bryant-Max.

What? L.H. Butch? I don't know how to pronounce that. I don't blame you. Andrea Carlson, Petrius, Peteris, Peteris Trifonovas? That better not be Petter-esque, Petrius Trifonovas. I hope not. Kelly Redmond, Juan Rangel. Don't give these people bad names.

Allison DMV? What, DVM? Lindsay Bacon, Kyle Gantz. Tim Hart. Abby Smith. KB with no last name. Just K and a B. All right.

It's a hook. I'm trying my best. KB bar. Nancy A. Newcomb. Ethan Ramsey. Kelly with no last name. Terry Riopelle. Diane Martinez.

Trevor Green. Teresa Moss. Kim Head. Devin Bilecki paul boardley juan piper julian piper i'm sorry samantha turner again elliot bricknell uh colby rich miguel chavez nekia neck any kia nikia car Carlos with no last name. Shelly Garecki. Two Turtles doing it. Justin Weeks. Logan Miller.

Julian Caballero. Nate Locatelli. Mike with no last name. Amy Bennett. Bobby Maris. Devin Baker. Was it Devin? Darren.

Darren Baker. Tristan O'Brien. Julia Scherter. Dan with no last name. Sam with no last name, Leanne Overbay, Rob Wachek, Jennifer Malone, Jocelyn Rowe, Amy Alfrey, Lindy O'Bray, David Baird, Cody Garreau, Joan Hammer, Alberto Scafarno, Scarfano, what the fuck, man? Dusty Martinez, James with no last name, Jessica LaDuke, LaDuke, yes,

Mark McPherson, Wes the Engineer, Jody Siff, Bobby Burizich, Nicole Sordonodic, what the fuck? Kevin Devaney. That's easy, right? Let's see. What the fuck is this? Dee Rich.

No last name. Katie with no last name. Brittany Summers. Matthew. Nope. Melito. Melito King. Jen with no last name.

Samantha Fisher. Lindsay Peterson. Danny Stewart. Jennifer Wooden. Rodney Erickson. Drewie oh janae i think uh jeff craps heather a verne deworm deworm tina b with no last name emma roberts tory tory sam james poland meredith holly uh britney with no last name matt Matt Walden, Claire Gregory, Robert Osnabaw, what?

Sean O'Moore. Shit, I don't know how to say your name. Sean M. Moore, Jennifer Matthews, Paul Markin, Madison Bell, Keith and Matthew Knoll, Princess Tia. Oh, is that Princess Tia? No. I don't know her. Oh, is that Princess Tia? No. I don't know her. Oh.

Ryan Newsome. DC Fisher. Sonny Wilson. Faith with no last name. Katie McGrath. Sheridan King. Brent Gleason. And James Wright.

You guys, thank you unbelievably. I can't thank you enough for everything you do. All of our patrons also, obviously. Thank you. Thank you so much. Good you. Thank you so much. Good Christ, thank you so much. We could not do any of this shit without all of you people.

Thank you for everything you do. We really hope you love the Patreon episodes because we have a lot of pride in those and we really hope you like them because they're so much fun for us. So get on that and enjoy that and all that shit. Jimmy, what if they wanted to enjoy you?

How could they enjoy you outside of here? I hope you've enjoyed this. And thank you so much. You can find me at Wisman sucks. W H I S M a N sucks on Twitter and Instagram. And thank you guys truly for everything that you've done. This is unbelievable. I'm so thankful for you.

Where can they find you, James? Oh boy. I am at Jimmy P is funny, or you can just, you can Google the show and then we're both on there yeah you know you could google the show hosts wherever there we are make it easy you can probably click on both of us at once and make an easy deal there so check all that out and

keep coming back and seeing us over and over and over again because uh we're not going away god damn it that said we'll be back live from the crime and sports studios. We will see you next week. Bye. Hey, prime members. You can listen to crime and sports early and add free on Amazon music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts.

Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.