Crime in Sports - #41 - Murder Is A Strange Thank You - The Despicableness of James Butler

Episode Date: November 8, 2016

This week, we explore a dark tale of violence, betrayal, and most of all, irony. A rough childhood, plus lousy impulse control, and a heaping helping of mental illness, equals a boxer who was too crazy for the ring. Unfortunately for the rest of the world, he wasn't exactly a superstar of regular society, either. His final crime is one of the most horrible, and deplorable things we've ever talked about. He's a bad guy, and we have a rip roarin' time, tearing the whole situation to shreds. It's a wild ride!Lose your mind, burn your bridges, and sucker punch someone who doesn't deserve it with James "The Hammer" Butler!! Check us out, every Tuesday. We will continue to bring you the biggest idiots in sports history!Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Tuesday!!Please subscribe, rate, and review!Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!Head to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Crime in Sports!For merchandise: crimeinsports.threadless.comCheck out James and Jimmie's other show: Small Town Murder Follow us on social media!Facebook: facebook.com/crimeinsportsInstagram: instagram.com/smalltownmurderTwitter: twitter.com/MurderSmall Contact the show: [e-mail] on Patreon: patreon.com/crimeinsportsPayPal: paypal.me/crimeinsports See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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It's streaming. You can say anything. It's an all-new season. Judy Justice. Only on Freebie. hello and welcome back to crime and sports yay oh yay jimmy you you nailed it it's a big one this week oh it's a big one i've been waiting on this one i am james petrogallo here with my co-host i am jimmy wissman this guy we've been waiting on for about 25 weeks i think we found him like 25 weeks wait you brought him to me and we're like check this guy out it's the best thing ever he's a

complete ass one event made me, I just wanted to cover him just because of that. And then the fact that he actually did go to prison made it so much better. It got much worse than the one event you saw and said, we need to get on this guy. It got way worse. Just exponentially worse.

It's amazing. Hope everyone enjoyed last week's Daryl Alums, his trip from mediocrity to homelessness, basically. That's a pretty good description. Pretty good description. He was an absolute just disaster of a human being. Kind of a light, it was like a light, airy episode. When the highlight of your podcast episode is the quote, barbecue beef farts, it defines everything that happened in your life.

And it was just a very, very funny trip through craziness there. That was a highlight for me. I enjoyed just saying that. But yeah, so... No, but thank you guys. Recapping, thank you guys for listening. There was an influx of new people listening.

And if you're back this week, sure you are. How could you not after barbecue beef farts? Come on. Thank you for coming back. We're going to have a big week. New listeners, thank you so much

for joining us. Also want to thank everybody for the new iTunes reviews. Those mean the world to us. Thank you guys so much for those. Really nice ones this week. We appreciate them a ton.

We're going to get the shout outs later. Thank you guys for the, the newest one is the one that like touched me the most. It was like touching. I have a black, dark, angry heart, and I almost felt a little happiness for a second.

It was close, but let's be honest. She found everything that was going on in the podcast, everything that's recurring. She picked them out, and she pointed out fun things about the show. We appreciate it, guys. We appreciate the hell out of that. It really helps us go up the rankings and all that, and we have a sponsor joining us this week that we're going to get to in a little bit here

which is going to be fun we will uh and a real sponsor like a good one it's awesome so it's going to be great guys help us out buy the shit that they want you to buy yeah because it's actually good stuff but it really is before we get into all of that besides the fact of sponsors and shout outs and all that we have got quite the story for you folks tonight it's a whole lot of human garbage pile it's a mess it's and it's all on fire it's on fire it's it's a dumpster fire that's just it's a dumpster fire that's only has tires inside right and oily rags that just go up but then sustain burn for a long time it's's surrounded by propane tanks, so the fire department's like, just let it burn. We're going to stand back.

And it's in a shit neighborhood, so this all needs to come down anyway. It's fine. It's all good. This man tonight is James Butler. Wait for it. Junior. Of course. Of course it's Junior. I know we say it every time there's a junior, but honestly, guys, everyone.

It's far too prevalent. Stop naming your children after yourself. And football players, stop putting it on your fucking jersey. It just gives us an idea to follow you. Yeah, you will be a criminal because every one of these junior juniors, it's pushing over the 25% marker. If a listener wants to, one of you you crazy bastards wants to compile the list of juniors it's a decent list it's too much it's a lot well this particular junior james butler junior is a boxer and a complete lunatic good god is this a twisted story this has everything this

has this this is like a lifetime story mixed with like Tarantino, like we said before about somebody else, mixed with like, what's the word I'm looking for? Criminal, first of all. No, no, no. It's not that. Criminal, criminal. Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. But I'm thinking more like.

I just like watching you struggle to find it. It's irony, Jimmy. All right. I found you struggle to find it it's irony jimmy all right i found it all right it's irony all right the irony in this story in every way there's so much irony in this it's just the most ironic tale ever told alanis morissette would shit herself and use it as a toboggan to slide down a mountain because nobody knows this one no this is wild he uh james butler jr is born december 18th 1972 he's from harlem he's a new york city guy he is from harlem he's not keeps it straight gangster he's not from a good home a good area his early life is troubled let's just say what year 75 72 72 december 18th 72 so he grew up in the shitty Harlem like legit oh yeah yeah now it's like all gentrified and there's like there's cupcake shops there yeah

there's cupcakes there's gays and cupcakes now it's fine now but back then this was hard for shit this was he grew up in the late in the 70s and then his teen years were in the 80s crack times yeah we're talking crack times this is no joke his father not around at all obviously once again we see doesn't really matter whether you leave or beat the shit out of everyone within your arms reach either way your child's going to be a disaster if you're not a half decent father or at least sometimes they leave and it's better but this one apparently not because their mother was not much better off fantastic was not much better than the father

probably would have been the mother's not in the house much she liked to like party and do drugs and all that kind of thing you know the typical

like leave him and he had a little brother named Aaron and leave him alone together just to fend for themselves you watch him

you watch him again raccoons it's a raccoon family like Tommy Morrison, basically. Hello. His mother's out and they're like,

watch your brother when they leave. Okay. You watch your brother and you, you watch your brother. That's not the accent she has, by the way,

in Harlem. No, no, no, no. This is a black woman in Harlem. She didn't say, watch your brother now. That's not how she said it at all.

Watch that little motherfucker. I'll be back. I don't think that's how it happened. But yeah, it wasn't there. They grew up in the projects in Harlem. Not a good I'll be back. I don't think that's how it happened. But yeah, it wasn't there. They grew up in the projects in Harlem. Not a good place to be anyway.

Very, very rough, like we said. He gets in a shitload of trouble as a kid. Awesome. Just a lot of trouble. He's always fighting, stealing. Just basic street dumb shit for a poor kid who's bored. Setting himself up to be a boxer. Unsupervised.

And we have a quote here from his mother, Velva Gadsden. His mom's name was Velva. Velva. Aqua Velva Gadsden here says, quote, James was a very difficult child to raise. He was always so quiet, so withdrawn. He would sit there and I would say to him, Mommy loves you. Tell me what's wrong. And James would just sit there all quiet,

locking everything upstairs there in the brain and not letting anything out. You've been gone for four days. What do you think is wrong? What do you think? Yeah, he's pissed. He's like, I don't have a father. That's number one.

Number two, where the fuck have you been all week? Let somebody play catch with me. If you could fucking be here, that would be helpful. Where's Aaron? I lost him. I have no idea where he is. I don't know. He took off.

He's doing something. He's seven? That's not my problem. You shouldn't have had him. The fuck do you want from me? I'm nine. Right. I lost him. I have no idea where he is. I don't know. He took off. He's doing something. He's seven? That's not my problem. You shouldn't have had him. What the fuck do you want from me? I'm nine. I have nothing. I have no more responsibility there.

They're very, very, very, very poor. Also, too, James Butler here, he claims then and later that his mother hit him a lot. It was very strict and hit him a lot, which he probably deserved. I'm not saying he probably didn't but frustrated mother that's what they end up doing but on the other hand you got to think about it this way on the other hand she maybe if she was home more she would have to beat these right it's kind of bad when you leave for three days come home beat the shit out of them it's kind of like oh that's it's hard to form a good relationship maybe just don't come back

yeah just leave them that's what the kids are thinking anyway you might as well and they're you're gone and then you come home and you hit them and then you extend you go i don't know what's wrong with that kid he was just a hard it's a hard child to raise dad would have stuck around no you just wish that you didn't have kids after i backhand them i turned my rings around don't worry after i backhand him uh you know i'm asked mommy loves you what's wrong he'll want to talk to me for some reason i don't know why i don't get it it's very strange um i don't know hold on i have to go get this guy out of the room that i brought home last night i i don't remember his name either i made him breakfast go get your own butler doesn't

see little james doesn't seem too happy about it. And on the beating here, Mama Velva, as I'm going to call her from now on, Mama Velva on James said, maybe I was too strict with him, too stern. I don't know.

I wanted my sons to be strong because the world is cruel. It is chaos. If you are weak, you fall. I believe James fell. Wow, she's a real poet. She's a tough woman, boy. She's a hard woman.

Like, the world's hard, son. I'll be back in three days. Watch Aaron. Okay. And then she leaves. There's something to remember me by. She blasts him in the face. Smacks him good.

Don't forget your mommy loves you. There's hamburger helper in the cabinet. No, there ain't no goddamn meat. There's hamburger helper in the cabinet. Make it for your brother. Make it work. Mom, we don't even have a cabinet. Cab, she lies.

And then she's gone. He turns around. There's just a poof of dust. The door swinging closed. Mama! He's mad. James is there. He goes to his knees.

Mama! Got me again. Holy Jesus. So Mama Velva said that, this is another, I love these Mama Velva quotes up front here. These are my favorite. Mama Velva said, quote, Ma was hanging out. You know what I mean? I don't think James liked that.

Ma out partying. She called herself Ma. Ma. Ma was hanging out. You know what I mean? I don't think James liked that. I think that's funny. Yeah, Ma out partying.

Well, yeah, of course he didn't like it. He's a child. He wants you. I don't think it's really that you're out partying so much. It's just that you're not home. Right. It's that you're leaving him the fuck alone. He's a child. He wants you. I don't think it's really that you're out partying so much. It's just that you're not home. Right. It's that you're leaving him the fuck alone. That's the key.

Right. And it's not to say that the mother has to be home. No one's home. That's the thing. She didn't leave anyone else there. She didn't have like her mom. She left there. Hey, sister.

She didn't even call the neighbor. Here's your aunt. She's going to come. No, but yeah, not even the neighbor. Hey, can you come by every once in a while and make sure the place isn't on fire? She just said, helpers in the cabinet. you there's helper in the cabinet we don't have any water or this and there's no electricity so just chomp on that would you just crunch it it's got noodles in it you gotta have some kind of vitamins in it for a little you there's a little bit of nutritional value i'm telling you man it's it's fucking

disaster so he's he's an angry kid he goes. He's in and out of foster care, too. Like his mom will lose control of the situation, I guess. I guess if you're out one day too many, they come by and just pick the kids up for a while. The state comes and goes, all right, you can't just be leaving for seven days. And it's six, okay, we can let that slide. But seven, Jesus Christ. Aaron has the rickets. You've got problems, problems lady get your ass home

uh as a young young teen here he's he gets arrested a lot for little things kind of picked up let go all that kind of shit um something good happens to him here though while he's having one of his meltdowns and we'll find out why he has so many meltdowns later. Plus, obviously, that, you know, the home life is contributing to the mental problems. There's mental problems, home life problems, lots of exasperating factors here that are going to really fluff it up. They're simmering right now. It's basically, yeah, someone's standing there just turning the helium up a little in the balloon. It's just swelling. Got the pot on simmer and they're just stirring the flavors together.

It's really, just, this is going to be good. Do you smell that wafting out of there? Four or five hours? This is, once it reduces? Oh, man. What do you say? Do you smell a salt and battery? What is that?

What is that? Is that, oh, that's a heavier crime than that even I smell. It's wafting. Oh, you're going to have to wait, though. Let's stir it. You guys, we're going to stir this pot. You're going to have to wait about an hour.'s stir it. You guys were going to stir this pot. You're going to have to wait about an hour. That pairs very well with domestic violence.

It really does. It pairs excellent with first-degree murder and anything else we can find. So as a young teen here, he's at 155th Street and 8th Avenue in New York City, which is uptown. That's Harlem. And he is very North Harlem, too. He gets kicked out of a neighborhood fast food joint, basically. I don't know.

He's acting up in some way, shape, or form. They boot the kid out. He's pissed off. He's standing outside kicking the glass doors, right? He's just hitting them and kicking them. And he's just in a rage, basically, for getting kicked out. So no shit he got thrown out. That'll get you brought back in.

That'll get you brought back yeah that'll get you brought back hey come on all right we were just fun and i picture the customers too taking bites of their burgers trying to pretend like there's not a seriously deranged kid with a bad home life kicking the fucking glass just kicking it standing there just looking at a pocket full of of raw hamburger helper absolutely going i just asked for some boiling water i just wanted to cook the noodles for aaron god damn it he needs food i'm okay but what about aaron mama hasn't been home in seven days so a man mama valve is gone so a man came comes up to him a guy pops out of nowhere this guy comes up to him and says hey kid

you should be boxing you got a lot of anger in you so obviously he's got a lot now normally this is a bad sign yeah normally anytime a child is doing something and a grown man comes up to them when they're in a fit of rage and offers some sort of advice that's a kidnapper right a molester a cult recruiting person something this is not something with ulterior motives yeah usually this is terrible there's usual child child sex involved in this case is the only lucky break little james ever gotten his goddamn life this guy is legit serious he's like that's a hell of a right cross you just threw it that pain of pain of glass absolutely why don't you come down the gym come on down to the gym i can harness that anger that's what he said you got a lot of anger and you should be boxing he you come down to the gym? Come on down to the gym. I can harness that anger.

That's what he said. You've got a lot of anger and you should be boxing. Unbelievable. He's a boxing trainer. He's got a gym and everything and he summons young James down there. And you know, too,

I mean, James, in the back of his mind, just in the back of his mind, he's thinking he's getting diddled. Yeah. He's seen that episode of Different Strokes where the guy in the bike shop

takes the pictures of Dudley. He's seen it. He's seen it. He knows that it's happened he's seen that's you know that's happened already so he's meanwhile there are leery dozens of blondes piling off a bus right at this very moment in la trying to get this particular break oh yeah little 11 year old james actually gets it absolutely he gets the break here. And so he shows up at the gym that week. It's the Times Square Athletic Club in Manhattan. And he shows up, and the kid turns out to be a natural puncher. What do you know here?

It's Alexander Newbold was the trainer that found him. He's known as Ness around the boxing circle. He's been practicing on the door in his apartment when his mom leaves. Yeah, he's got just a drywall looks like Swiss cheese at home there. Just terrible. Awful. Little Aaron has double black eyes all the time. Mom's scared to come.

Maybe that's why mom didn't come home. She wanted to get punched in the eye. That motherfucker's a murderer. I'm not going home. I've been gone for two days. He's going to hit me right in the eye. I'm not coming home. So I think I nailed Mama Velva a little more.

I think so. That was close. Hey, everybody. We'll get back to the story in just one moment, but we just have to tell you about Blue Apron. Blue Apron has come on board as a sponsor, and God, we couldn't be happier. Not only because we have a sponsor, but because the food we get is amazing.

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Plenty more craziness coming your way right now. Trainer Bob Jackson, who's one of the trainers in the gym, said of James' fighting when he first came in the gym, he said, quote, he looked like somebody had just stolen something from him and it might have been you.

Oh, shit. He's a bad little man. So he looked like a kid with a chip on his shoulder. A kid with a chip on his shoulder and a nasty right hand and they nickname him the Hammer. Uh-oh.

They nickname him, he's the Harlem Hammer. That's what they call him. He's got a hell of a right hand man the hammer over here and he starts amateur boxing in 91 all right so i mean he's 19 years old and this was also too he needed to find something to do with himself because one week before his 18th birthday he spent 20 days in jail for a petty larceny surprise surprise so yeah he. So, yeah, he's not, you know, he was not on the best road. He's kicking glass and going to jail for petty larceny.

Shit's not going great for him at this point. Yeah. You know, Mama Velva's out. It's bad times. She's like, he's 19 to get fed for himself now for sure. Fuck him, yeah. But he's going to jail because of it, you dumb broad. Yeah, so she's in there and, yeah, so now he's boxing.

Yeah. At least he's finding a place for his rage as we found true we have an in their own words about when he started boxing let's see what what was going on behind behind the door what's behind the curtain what's behind the curtain to find out what the hell let's see the wizard look this is going to be a scary look like you see this is the thing it feels like right now this is like to be a scary little wizard. What's the wizard look like? Is he a midget? See, this is the thing. It feels like right now, this is like in The Wizard of Oz when it goes from black and white to color

because we are finding out inside the mind and psyche of this James Butler who, wow, does it get twisted later. So we're laying the seeds here in their own words on why he started boxing. Quote, I wanted to be something in society, so growing up,

I always wondered what I wanted to be. I used to get into street fights and hit people. I went to the gym to learn boxing, and that was it. Not a lot behind that. Thank you. There you go. It went from black and white to kind of sepia.

It didn't really go to color. It was just kind of brown. It's a bad Instagram filter. I was like, yeah, not that one. That's a bad filter. Keep switching. Not a bright guy. And everything you hear of James Butler, the people people that like him even the people that hate him people

like him none of them ever say he's a real smart guy that never comes out once out of anyone's mouth even the people who love him yeah and those are very few people he right away he's good though 1992 wins a gold gloves title new york city gold right out of the gate right out of the gate near new york state i think but out of the city, so that's where all this boxers are from. A year into it, he's already Golden Gloves. He's already Gold Gloves, yeah. He's doing great, super middleweight. He's doing, he's like a 168.

That's impressive. Now, so he gets off on boxing, and now we're going to take a fork in the road here to go down another path. Now, he's boxing. He's, you know, just turned 20 years old, won Gold Gloves. Now we're going to have to back it up a little and introduce another character who's going to come in later on and play a very, very important role in it.

Now, first, before we get to this other character, we'll introduce his brother, who some of you may know. If you're sports fans, you probably know who he is. If you're not sports fans, whatever, turn on ESPN. He's got like three shows. You'll find him. A guy named max kellerman uh this this guy here he's uh right now currently as we speak in in october november of 2016 he is the

co-host of first take on espn first take is the show that let's let's all right let's be honest here okay we're gonna here's a here's a take for you here's a first take first take is the show where they have people they get two people and they have them take sides they i believe don't even believe in and have them argue about it even though they probably agree with each other i hate those fucking shows it's the biggest load of shit in the world and also i'm going to say something kind about max kellerman though skip bayless was on here before that skip bayless is currently on fox sports is the worst with shannon sharp skip bayless is the biggest pile of human shit fucking heap i've ever fucking listened to or watched on anything as a sports person it's like are you fucking serious he is fox news

of espn and now fox he's a complete everything he says he doesn't believe in he says it for ratings and money and plastic surgery and his fucking what his sandy washed hair asshole you're 68 fucking years old or however old you are that man's in his 60s you don't have like that sandy brown hair anymore you're not on thes. You don't have sandy brown hair anymore. You're not on the fucking beach. You don't have much hair anymore. Stop it. He has... No, no, no.

His hair is like a young... Like a 12-year-old boy who's been frolicking on the beach all summer. And it just has a little bit of sun bleach in it. You fucking asshole. Phony piece of fucking garbage.

And I've talked shit about him before. I called him a cunt on an earlier occasion when he lambasted the wrong Eddie Johnson for a day and him before. I called him a cunt on an earlier occasion when he lambasted the wrong Eddie Johnson for a day and a half. Oh, that's right. It was him

that fucking did it. Because he didn't have the goddamn journalistic integrity to even fucking Google search and find out which goddamn one he was talking about.

That's what an asshole he is. What a lazy bitch. And he used to be a great reporter back in the day in Dallas. He was an actual good fucking reporter. And now he's a lazy tan plastic surgery hair plug wearing douchebag fuck him and fuck him completely and i'm glad he's off first take but the thing i have to say

about first take now max kellerman is on it sorry for that sidetrack guys look up skip balis listen to him speak for 30 seconds. You'll want to reach to the screen and punch him right in the Adam's apple. He's a douchebag. His headshots are sick. They're ridiculous. I swear to God. We have women who are like 60-year-old lady listeners.

You will want to rip his fucking throat out if you listen to him for two seconds. I don't care. We have Mormons and Christians even that listen somehow. I don't know how the hell they tolerate us, but they do. They're in. You'll want to kill this son of a bitch. Yeah, no shit.

Not even to get even or anything. Just out of pure rage, I'm telling you. Not even an eye for an eye. We're not even talking that. I promise you, your Christ will want you in heaven. So now Max Kellerman, this poor guy. Max Kellerman, I think, is a smart guy. He comes up as a boxing analyst.

We'll kind of get into the evolution of Max Kellerman, I think, is a smart guy. He comes up as a boxing analyst. We'll kind of get into the evolution of Max Kellerman. Started off as a big boxing fan. Had a public access TV show in New York where he paid $25. Oh, Jesus. Really? And it was amazing, though. It was a great show. People liked it?

He's super energetic, whatever. The phone lines lit up. People loved him. And he became a big deal in New york on this public access show literally i mean uh it was called max on boxing started liked it i can't they loved it started in 1989 september 8th 1989 he was 16 years old okay when he started it lasted nine years he was doing it and like people really dug it like dustin hoffman called in because he liked it and he was a boxing fan and he invited max to dinner he was a young guy and uh he was on the letterman show when it was at 12 30 you know

before he moved and to nbc when it was on cbs later night yeah he was on there because he was like a new york celebrity that's awesome he was that that kid on the public access boxing show and he had all this crazy information and he's really boxing smart he knows everything about boxing the history of boxing the science of it he's really really you know versed in that um also too now his when he leaves in nine years to move on to actually get shows on tv right he uh his little brother sam comes into the picture and takes over a show and it's called sam kellerman live and he also does a boxing show now okay sam and max are they're really tight brothers basically they grow up together and everything they have lots of influence uh their family has lots of influence their father's like a psychoanalyst on fifth avenue in new york they're pretty wealthy they live in greenwich

village of a real nice apartment. There's like three brothers. They all have their own bedroom. So in New York City, if you're talking the village... That's a good picture of New York, too. We're in the village. We're talking, you know,

narrow, crooked streets, and there's kids with fucking... They each have a bedroom. Right. There's some wealthy kids. They're doing all right. This family, actually, like their grandparents

died in World war ii in the concentration camps and that sort of thing so yeah their family is very interesting they're they're uh or one of their grand their grandfather came over here and the real they're they're fighters these people man they're they're really uh a good smart family that's tough and they teach their kids right and god damn it they make me want to be jewish i swear to god when i read these kind of stories i'm like god damn it i should have raised my to be Jewish. I swear to God. When I read these kind of stories, I'm like, God damn it, I should have raised my kids Jewish. I really should have.

I fucked up. Maybe I'd be in Greenwich Village with both my kids having their own room and an apartment. Exactly, maybe. But fuck, unfortunately I wasn't born Jewish and it just didn't happen for me. I'm sorry. But if I did, this would have worked out better.

And you know, too, people say that Jews, they just just do it that's no shit because they just figure it out how to be successful because these grandparents are dead there's not like shit to inherit and they like made it kind of racist a little bit i think it's but we're gonna go that's not what i'm saying i know exactly what no they came over and they're like hey we fought to get here there's fighters for real, goddammit, we really have to fucking get it together and nobody fucked up, basically. They had nothing and they made something. That's incredible. No, the whole thing is incredible. It's a hell of a story.

I'm impressed with this whole family. I'm impressed with all these people. Now, before I get further down the line of the story, I have to say, Max Kellerman, i feel so bad for him now because he has to deal with steven a smith's bullshit and i actually watched the show a couple of times yeah and basically no matter what max kellerman says he could be like steven i woke up this morning and you know it was a beautiful blue sky and he'd be like max max max the sky is not blue the sky is not blue you know the sky is not blue max it's pink and he'd be like uh steven i just looked out the window and he'd be like max and he treats him like he's a complete fucking idiot and meanwhile he's really well

versed and steven a smith is like all fat and happy i feel like at this point he thinks he thinks he's a journalist because he talks to his contacts. You hang out with some athletes and ask them shit once in a while and then go fucking every day do speeches at different colleges to pad your salary. Fuck you too. If you want to hear the best comedy bit ever about him, find the Sklar brothers talking about Stephen A. Smith. They're great.

It's the most amazing thing ever, how much of a name dropper he is. Complete asshole. How he runs out of breath. He's awful. It's all he ever did. So good. So I was texting with LeBron. I'm like, go fuck yourself, Stephen A. Smith.

LeBron hates you. He finds every way possible to put fucking celebrity sports players in his own mouth. When LeBron gets a text from you, he rolls his eyes and goes, oh, for Christ's sake. This motherfucker again. But actually, Kellerman is not half bad. On the show, he has to be a douchebag. But from his other shows, he also has to be a douchebag around the horn,

all those shows. He had a show called IMAX on Fox. He's had a ton of shows over the years. Somebody's like, I'm going to talk about this point. And he's like, well, I kind of agree with that. But I have to go this other way because the fucking producers tell me to. Absolutely.

We have to have some conflict. Stupid. That would be like if us, we were on here arguing just to pretend to argue. It's ridiculous. That would last

two episodes because I would quit. Completely. But Max, Max is, he puts up with the shit anyway, whatever.

So his brother Sam though is, everyone from what I hear, Sam's the smarter of the two even. Max is very, very smart.

Yeah, Max started his own show at 16. On boxing, Max is very, very smart. Yeah, Max started his own show at 16. On boxing, Max is second to none. I mean, he's nowadays, I mean, he's not like maybe Burt Sugar back in the day or something, but nowadays he's second to none boxing.

And he's like a machine. He's like an encyclopedia. He can rattle off the history. It's incredible. Anyway, but Sam, Sam is so smart. Here's a quote from one of his teachers. This is from Stuyvesant High School, which is like a kind of elite high school for real smart kids. And rich probably, I assume.

Probably. So anyway, here's the quote. Quote, 10,000 students and 34 years have passed since my first day as a teacher. And I cannot recall one student of this quality, intelligence, and talent. Sam is someone who our world should be proud to know as an example of what humans are all about and of the heights we can attain. Here he is, Sam Kellerman, the best of 10,000. My God.

Jesus Christ. He loves him. That is some kind of fucking Yelp review, isn't it? He really loves him. God. Yeah. Wow. I wish somebody would say that about me.

I don't even care if it's at my funeral. I'm eulogizing me that way. That's amazing. He said that about him while he was alive, I think. That was amazing the best student i've ever had ever i've had the nicest thing a teacher ever said about me was he'd do well if he applied himself more i think that would be the best my teacher said something like he showed up he was here every day mine would all tell my parents he seems smart he seems reasonably intelligent which is the thing they have to say about every student doesn't really want to do things i don't get that right seems to know what's going on doesn't want to do

anything so yeah that was my could be the best of 10 000 possible We'll never know because he's not doing shit. Because he doesn't apply himself. Not at all. Sam, very smart, like had an 800 on the verbal section of the SATs. You know, this is, he was such a nice guy. Everybody would talk about how he would walk around the neighborhood. Because this is, you know, down there in the village and all that. There's a lot of old people still down there back in the day. Hey, Harlem, you can walk around.

Exactly. Well, also, too, like there's a lot of neighborhoods people still down there back in the day. Hey, Harlem, you can walk around. Exactly. Well, also, too, there's a lot of neighborhoods right around there. Old people still live there. He would go around and talk to the old people that lived by themselves and just go sit and talk to them

and listen to them. What the fuck? What did he do that for? He would take them to go run errands to the store, and they all said he would walk with them all slow down the street

and help them. Is he trying to earn his Eagle badge? I have no idea what the hell he was doing. He's just a nice guy. He's doing extracurricular school work. He's got, as we'll get into, what he does in the boxing gym in a minute.

All this type of stuff, and he still has time for this sort of shit. Everybody in the family said he was the guy who would solve problems and resolve things with people. If two people were fighting, he would talk them into, like, hey, why don't we all fix this yeah this is the best way and make everybody feel good about it he was the lubricator basically that was it so james butler's the hammer he's the lubricator there's they have different purposes a hammer and a lubricator here if i if i stumbled upon an old person on their porch asking to talk, I'd chow with them for a minute. Even if they said,

I have a lot of money to bequeath to somebody, would you just come by every day and chow? I'd be like, yeah, yeah, sure. And I'd get in my car and be like, fuck is that guy talking about? Jesus Christ. No way. I think he's, it's sad.

Yeah. It's sad. I think he's gone. He thinks he's got money. He's gone. I think he's gone. It's almost over. It's so sad, really.

He probably has no kids or anything. No way I'm coming around. His grandkids abandoned him. It's so sad, really. He probably has no kids or anything. No way I'm coming around. His grandkids abandoned him. It's so sad. So Sam is smart here. Let's hear his... I don't even call my own grandparents. I'll just say that, all right?

Yeah, yeah. I should, but I don't. I'm not talking to somebody that just wants to fucking... I got a wife that does that, just fucking rambles. And it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, and I gotta nod. You could see the gestures Jimmy's doing with his hands as he's doing a little biting clam hands gotta shake my head yes and fucking whatever i'm not gonna talk to old people that's my point go on don't if you're out there and you're over the age of say 67 we'll call it don't talk to jimmy because he is gonna shoo you away if

you're in the street he might run you down with his car. Watch out. It's over for you. Give him a wide berth because he does not want to hear from you or talk to you or know anything about the 40s. He wants nothing to do with you. I'm out. I'm sorry. So Sam is a bright guy, like we said. And here's a quote that he had when he was a teenager.

This is a quote that he's arguing with Max about something. They would constantly argue, Sam and Max. Yeah. Don't know why. They're brothers, that's why. And it was like a see who's smarter kind of an exercise. It wasn't like I'm going to kick your ass argument. It's like verbal chess.

It's what it is, basically, which is so much fun. I like this. This is what I like about back home. Arguing is a sport back there, whereas opposed to like he's a dick and he argued with me and someone stomps away so here's a quote that Sam had sports is man's joke on God you see God

says to man quote I've created a universe where it seems like everything matters where you'll have to grapple with life and death and in the end you'll die anyway and it won't really matter so man says to God quote oh yeah within your universe we're going to create a sub-universe called sports one that absolutely doesn't matter and will follow everything that

happens as if it were life and death my god so he's thinking deep about shit like sports at 16 like this is his quote like that's brilliant yeah it was it really that's really amazing his head he was he was a big thinker for a 16 yearyear-old and his whole life. He's a real smart kid. All these kids are smart. No, that's Sam. That's Sam. That's the younger brother. That's the younger brother. That's the best of 10,000. That's the best of 10,000. That is not the guy who has to argue with Stephen A. Smith every goddamn morning. But Sam is going to wish soon that he was on first take with Stephen A. Smith. Here's a quote from Max on Sam. Quote, Sam was life's protagonist. Imagine the smartest, most talented person you know in the world.

Then imagine the person you love the most. That's the guy. That's my brother. So that's everybody who knew Sam said that about him. Exactly. It's amazing. From teachers to family to old people on the street to anybody in the world. I got to start applying myself. I'm telling you, man. I don't know anyone that would say anything close to that. People would be like, he's all right. He was pretty funny. Pretty good dude. Yeah, he had that one joke that was pretty good.

Maybe I'd say that. That would be about it. He made fun of assholes. He's a dad. He's a dad. He had some kids, boy. He was fertile. I'm telling you, those sperm work like a charm.

Just two of them. Shot him right out. He didn't pull out and they made babies it was good so uh sam kellerman senior year of high school okay so he's like 17 years old he hangs around the neighborhood and and this is when max goes to college max goes to connecticut for college and he ends up coming back and going to columbia a couple years but columbia yeah they're very smart and they have dough so they go to columbia so why not go to new york why not stay in? Yeah, they're very smart and they have dough, so they go to Columbia. So why not go to New York? Why not stay in New York if you're from there anyway?

Why not live there? It's beautiful. It's great. Come on down. Go to an Ivy League school. Concrete jungle. America's dream. So senior year, Sam stumbles into the Times Square Athletic Club,

the boxing gym. Remember this from a minute ago? There's somebody that boxes there. There's somebody that boxes there. There's somebody that boxes there. Somebody significant. He finds Alexander Newbold, old Ness, that one guy we know as here. Now, at this point, Sam is 5'8", 130 pounds.

He walks in and he's like, I'm going to be a boxer. And they're like, you're a Jewish kid from Greenwich Village and you weigh 130 pounds. You ain't boxing shit. No. There are Puerto Rican kids here that would eat your shoes for the opportunity to get into the ring. And also, too, because they're actually hungry.

They just got here like three days ago and they're super fucking hungry. They were tired of chewing on the tires that were the walls of their boat. Your bedroom is bigger than their entire apartment where 12 people live. Do you understand that? Your bedroom that you sit back and you have a TV in a tv in there they don't have a tv for 12 of them none of it and them killing you in the ring is going to make them a little bit of money that they can actually buy a visa for one of their other family members to come here absolutely so he actually says you know what no i'm i'm gonna do this and newbold says i got like the kids balls

you know what i mean a little scrawny shit. Whatever. Hey, let's get it on. Hang out. So at one point he turns to him when they're standing by the ring and they're watching somebody box. And he says, Newbold asks Sam,

you got your mouthpiece? And Sam says, why? And he says, because you're boxing that guy next. And so Sam said, no, no way, dude. That guy can punch.

Because in the ring it was James Butler. The hammer. The Harlem hammer was in the ring. You betcha. you bet guys who had just won his first gold gloves you bet and he's like i don't want to box that guy and uh so the guy said no no you're gonna get in there it's all right you'll spar with him don't worry about it so he did and got his ass kicked sure i think butler outweighed him by 30 35 pounds and had three inches on him and the whole deal or five inches on him so sam at this point asked the new bull he's like you think you could teach me to hit like the hammer and he's

like no absolutely not that's not teachable people are born with that kind of pop is the quote that he tells him it comes with it comes with either birth or years and years of neglected abuse and an absent father and a crackhead you gotta get out of grunit brother and trying to fucking make hamburger helper work with nothing for a little brother that's what that's how you hit like that he boiled his own urine do you understand how that works and put noodles in it and talk that fucking kid into eating it he's got skills that you've never even thought you don't even know so newbold told him you know he can't teach him to teach him to be a world-class puncher obviously that comes with birth but he can't teach him to be a world-class puncher, obviously.

That comes with birth, but he can teach him balance and defense. Yeah. And basic boxing skills. I can teach you how to run. You can run, so you can do that. I can teach you how to run around a square circle and try to get away from a man that can actually punch. We'll set you up with this big scary man here as practice.

That way in the future, you know where to go so 1995 comes around they hang out for a couple years and they start to get close in the gym actually which is a strange thing the harlem hammer and the jewish runner these two become the most the most just odd couple ever over rap they get get into hip hop and Sam and Max are very much into hip hop and good God we'll get into it in a moment here

what that manifests into. We wish they didn't like hip hop so much. Or at least to save Sam from whatever's coming to keep him out of that man's clutches. You kind of know

that something bad is going to happen. Something bad is happening to Sam. The subject this week is James Bond. Yes. So when we discuss

a whole other guy and give his whole backstory, you know there's trouble brewing. There's trouble coming. You know he's either going to be, you know, dead or in prison

next to this guy or something, have to flee the country. A big dangerous black man who has been through fucking hell and back is hanging out with this guy.

Versus, and he's best friends with a little white guy from Greenwich that has everything going for him in his life. The best of 10,000. The best of 10,000. Next to that and the glass door kicker. And they're skipping hand in hand

down a Harlem street. Think about they're presented by their each of their backers there. The one guy's like he's the best at 25 years and 10 000 10 000 students no one as brilliant or talented as him has come across my threshold here he is and then newbold comes up and he's like i'll find water i found him kicking the door outside the mcdonald's yelling and cursing at it and shit and I said you look angry and I drug his ass down that's the difference of these two guys

you two should be friends you two are going to be pals but they're pals I guess at one point Sam was rapping some Tupac and he heard Butler heard him and was like that's Tupac I know that shit and they started talking and so next thing you know they're running around New York

hanging out being jerk offs which is kind of funny because Butler's a bad motherfucker. He can use his hands, and Sam's probably feeling good, like, hey, this is cool. If anybody messes with me, I got this guy ready to help. Before that, Max was the guy that used to help him. Max was a decent fighter, actually, and he used to help, he used to always stick up for his brother.

Now, once his brother hears Sam also gets into boxing... Sam was just super excited to be able to sing every word of a Tupac song. And not every word except for the end word. And he was like, yeah, Sam got... James got my back. James said I can say it. Junior over here got my back. It's fine. I went over to his house, I ate

the hamburger hell for I'm initiated. It's okay. Yeah, that's right, boiled urine. How else are you going to make it? There's no fucking running water in that goddamn place mama velma's been gone velva's been gone for goddamn days they've gotten no water so that urine is so yellow none oh it's really but we boiled it off it's orange boiled it off and we closed our eyes and pretended it was fine it was okay luckily the helper tinted it a little. It was Chili Mac. You wouldn't know the difference. Yeah, so these two are running around,

which is just an odd couple to be hanging out, running around the whole deal. Also, too, 1995, he wins his second gold glove, Mr. Butler. So he's doing well. He's got two now. He's got two. Also, 1995, he wins the bronze in the nationals,

he called it, which I don't know if that's some sort of national gold glove. He's the third best fighter in whatever the fuck that was. I don't have any idea. Third best of 10,000 at punching people's faces. He's not bad. Out of 10,000, he's the best face puncher we have to offer. So he's so good, he turns pro.

On October 18, 1996, he makes his professional boxing debut this is james not sam sam is not going to box professionally by any stretch of the imagination makes his professional boxing debut against eddie johnson unfortunately not our eddie johnson fast eddie johnson so the so don't go on tv skip and start running your fucking yeah exactly no shit don't ruin this guy's career fucking poor bastard running your fucking mouth. Yeah, exactly. No shit. Skip Bale is going to blame this fucking poor bastard. The wrong Eddie Johnson. Again, the wrong Eddie Johnson. But this Eddie Johnson, this was also his professional debut.

So he put a couple of no-names that never fought before. Butler wins by TKO. The fight's in the Bronx, which, as you know, is the mecca of the boxing world. The middle of the South bronx so uh that was october 8th two weeks october 18th two weeks later november 2nd he's fighting again wow fights fights derrick whitley wins by decision in hartford connecticut now he's two and oh yeah he's he's coming up he wants to get out there and fight they're probably two weeks training and he's back at it again i think they're paying him 50 bucks or something for these fights. He probably needs 50 bucks.

You bet. You can get a lot of Hamburger Helper for 50 bucks. Now, he's hanging out with Max. Max comes back to the city to go to Columbia. Max Kellerman comes back, goes to Columbia. And also, too, Sam at this point enrolls in Columbia also. So they're both going to Columbia. Different years.

Sam is very much into Shakespeare, but he doesn't take the courses. He just teaches himself 37 Shakespearean works. What? He's brilliant. He writes, he's writing a book

about his grandfather. He puts on plays that he like raises money and funds. He's the kind of man that can cure cancer. Exactly. He's the type of guy who would, the sky is the limit for what this guy can do. No doubt. He ends the kind of man that can cure cancer. Exactly. This is the type of guy who would... The sky is the limit

for what this guy can do. No doubt. He ends up trying to be an actor which is the worst most vapid use of this shit rather than whatever. So he's got an ego.

The Peace Corps doesn't pay very much. Right. But also too you've got to look at his brother ends up on TV he's doing all this

and he's looking at his brother and they were always in everything together. They were like a team. And he thinks he's better than him. Everybody's saying Max tells him he's better than him. Everybody's saying he is.

Max tells him he's better than him. So, I mean, he's like, I should be doing shit too. I'd like to be rich. I'd like to have something. Yeah, my own money. Yeah. So their hubris gets to a point where in the mid to late 90s, I think it's 97, they make a rap video.

What? They become rappers. Now, they were rapping this whole time. They would literally try to freestyle with people in the park and shit like that. a rap video what they become rappers now they were rapping this whole time they would like literally try to like freestyle with people in the park and shit like that so dumb how nobody killed these two i have no idea because i grew up in new york in the 90s and someone should have i don't know how they didn't get killed but it's amazing but wow good job guys they must have been half decent to not get killed yes apparently max was decent and sam was really really good and funny everybody said he was real funny his rap would be entertaining yeah

people would laugh and shit that's so cute and when a little skinny white kid clowns on somebody rapping everybody loved that right because it was fun and also to the beastie boys weren't most of those guys jewish or were all of them jewish yeah and they were pretty good too oh yeah they were popular all white guys But they make a song called Rumble Young Man Rumble as in the whole, they're big Muhammad Ali guys. Max Kellerman got into boxing

after seeing a Muhammad Ali fight when he was a kid and then going and reading his autobiography and loving him and fucking quoting him and quoting his poetry around the house and shit.

So they call it that. The opening of the song has like a Muhammad Ali sample in it of him talking. It's actually on Columbia, goddamn, on a subsidiary of Columbia Records. Wow. So they actually somehow got it published. You can find it if you look real hard, because I had to really look hard and find it through a link, through a link, because the original video is taken down through a third party copyright claim it says bastards yeah i was like

you just don't want to embarrass anybody it's that it is fucking terrible it is terrible guys look i can't wait to hear it it's incredible as a matter of fact we'll post a link to it on the social media the video we can't find the actual video but this is the song with their like their like you know headshot over it like the two like their rap album over it basically the still shot gold chains and no it's this song tracksuits terrible it's i mean even from the late 90s it's fucking awful i gotta say it's embarrassed i can't wait to see it's the worst thing either one of them has ever done and they that includes nine years of public access television not worse than this so january 31st 1997 uh james butler has a fight at the yonkers raceway and

yonkers again just a bastion of glory there it's he might as well be fighting him in wisconsin like lee murray that one time. He has his third fight here now. This is his third pro fight. He comes in 2-0. He is fighting Richard the Alien Grant. Oh, this is the one. This is not the one.

No? That was a rematch? This is the first fight. Now, Grant also only has a few pro fights. They're both new. He loses to Grant by decision. And he feels, as we'll get a quote on this later on, he feels as though he

didn't represent himself as well as he could have in that fight, and he's upset with himself for it. You could tell in this fight, he says anyway, and everyone that saw it said, Grant never hurt him, but he just pointed the shit out of him. He jabbed him. He made a fool of him

basically with jabs so after that he comes back strong wins his next four fights two by knockout two by decision so he comes through he's plowing through now

he's six and one and this fight doesn't matter at all but I had to bring it up because he's fighting a guy named Knowledge Bay which is that's his real name

his name is Knowledge Bay that's awesome that's amazing January 24, 1998 that guy should be a rapper fighting a guy named Knowledge Bay. That's his real name. His name is Knowledge Bay. That's awesome. That's amazing. January 24, 1998. That guy should be a rapper. I'm really happy as in the Elks Lodge in Queens, New York. So moving up again. Pretty soon you're going to get into a Knights of Columbus hall.

You guys are really working. So he luckily knocks a guy named Knowledge out, thankfully. I'm sure everyone cheered. Yes. What's his name? Knowledge is good. He deserved it. I'm sure everyone cheered. Yes. What's his name? Knowledge is good. He deserved it. He needed a punch right in the chin.

So this brings... And so do his parents for fucking signing him to that. His parents. They weren't around. Are you kidding me? They're probably like Velva. How could you assign a child that name? That's so fucked up.

Knowledge Bay. That's so... Such child abuse. Unreal. So he goes to 7-1 from that fight. He keeps plugging along. He's fighting over the next couple of years. So, he goes to 7-1 from that fight. He keeps plugging along. He's fighting over the next couple of years. Brings his record to 14-1.

That's impressive. That's impressive. All the way up to, and only the one decision to grant and get knocked out. All the way up to October 29, 1999, where he actually has a title fight. Oh! Not a major title. It's the USBA Super Middleweight title. It's not like a world title.

It's a small little belt. But it's a title. It's the USBA super middleweight title. It's not like a world title. It's a small little belt. But it's a title. It's a title. He's fighting in the Farm Bureau building in Indianapolis, Indiana, which in Indianapolis, that might be like a major building there, the Farm Bureau. But it sounds like they moved the cattle for the fight. It sounds like there's hay on the ground, and they moved out square dancing. They had, instead of a barbecue, beef, and basketball,

they had like a square dancing and ass kicking night where they come on down for the square dancing stay for the ass kicking come on folks jimmy stank juice half price two for one bottle because holidays are coming up get yourself a bottle of jimmy stank juice the concentrated beef farts of 5 000 lucky spectators come on down to the Farm Bureau building in Indianapolis, Indiana. Two for one. Two for one this week only. So he knocks out

Brian Bannon for the USBA super middleweight title on that night. That title is his. He's a champion. Yeah. Also, too,

I forgot to mention this. He was involved in the rap. He was in in the rap. They brought him in the studio because that was their boy. The guy that they beat up? No, no, no, no. Butler was in with the kellermans on the rap all right he brought i thought it was sam and him no sam and max oh gee brought james and i meant to mention this excuse me folks there but yeah

they brought james in as like i don't know street cred he's from harlem i don't know like he's tougher than us in Stand in the back, please. Apparently, over the course of the day, they let him rap a little bit and apparently he got bored by the whole thing. Because when you actually

record something, it's not fun. No. You actually have to go do shit for a day and do it 700 times and do it over and over again. Listen to him say

the same bullshit over and over again. And they go, no, no, no, a little slower, a little louder. It's a lot of fucking work. So you really got to do it right.

And he took off halfway through the day. He doesn't have the patience. Can't blame him. Because he has some mental issues also. He is bipolar, as we find out, James Butler. Around this time, we find out he's bipolar. He has some issues. And he ends up getting these issues checked out.

And he is fucked up in the head. Pretty good bipolar. If you're bipolar i apologize to you but you're not probably doing the crazy shit that this guy's gonna do so it's fine right this guy does not keep this shit under wraps at all uh but this doesn't come out yet this point here after the title win he wins his next three fights wow james James Butler goes on a run. He's 18-1 after this. He's doing great. He's a champ.

He's 18-1. Life is good, right? Yeah. From the hamburger helper to kicking the front door at McDonald's because they wouldn't help you make the hamburger helper to this. To a pinnacle of 18-1.

That's impressive. You're a champ. He's still not making shit for money really or anything, but he's on his fucking way. He's knocked out 18 dudes though. He's going to have opportunities. Beat 18 dudes, though. He's going to have opportunities. Beat 18 dudes. Yeah, he's going to have opportunities at this point.

September 1st, 2001. He goes to Borden Land Hall, Magdeburg, Germany. Goes over there, fights Sven Otke for the IBF World Super Middleweight title. This is a real title. IBF is a real organization. This is a world championship that's recognized by everybody. Sven is 23-0, the guy he's fighting. Wow.

23-0, and he's the world champ, and he's not a soft cat over here. He's a pretty bad dude. He's not a pushover. And Butler loses a unanimous decision to him, and now he's 18-2. And he's distraught, obviously. It's bad. That's September 1, 2001. He's distraught.

He comes back to the States. And then September 11 happens after that. Ten days later. In his hometown. In his hometown. It affects everything in his life. Oh, it really does. It really turns a life that's already upside down, turns it upside down twice to keep it the same way, I guess.

I don't know. Absolutely. Really fucks him, though. Absolutely. But it also, as horrible as this is, the most horrible tragedy, one of the worst tragedies in American history, also presented him with some opportunity. Oh.

Because on November 23, 2001, they hold a big boxing card that is nationally televised. So he's saying he came in with his head cutting me up, head-butting me, and I'm going to take it out on him. I'm going to finish this fight, and I'm going to do it right this time. He came in head-butting me. He's also said I couldn't make weight. It was really hard for me. I was weak.

He hit me with illegal shots. Yeah, if you have to lose, yeah. If you have to lose too much weight, you're weak also. So he's saying, yeah, he came in headbutting me. Oh, that's so great. He's saying he's cheap. Yeah. He's saying Grant's cheap and he's going to get everybody.

He's going to get vengeance for justice. This is a night of Thanksgiving. Fighting for America, goddammit. Fighting for America and he's going to get his justice. Oh, so good. Fight this cheap fighter the right way. We're all on James Butler's side, right? Crime and sports movement, we on James Butler's side. Right now in your car and work in your cubicle

go, yes we are. That's right. We are on his side. Okay. Butler's a heavy favorite going into this fight also because obviously he's got a good record and this Grant sucks. So, Grant frustrates him the whole fight. Grant's got a good record and this grant sucks so grant frustrates him the whole fight grant's got a jab yeah he's like a not not a heavyweight like larry homes but he's got that larry homes jab that just annoys people keeps you away and if you're a fighter

that the jab gets to it will drive you insane it will drive you to madness and you can't get inside on somebody that's already insane yeah this this turns into his glass fast food door here this whole night. So he just completely frustrates him. The fight's over. It goes the distance. It's a 10-round fight. It goes the distance. Grant's, of course, pissed off that he couldn't knock him out because that's what he wanted to do.

Butler is upset because he wanted to knock Grant out and get his revenge. Grant ends up winning a unanimous decision. Oh, so frustrating. Unanimous decision. That'll drive you bonkers. The Hammer is not happy about this. No. They're both on their side of the ring.

It is announced the winner is, because that's what they do in boxing, they're both on their respective corners. They announce the winner. He puts his arms up. The other guy goes, oh, shit. They do a little circle. Then they come to the middle. They hands they hug right at this moment even mike tyson okay after he would maul a guy in the in the in the in the in the peak of his career when he was at his most vicious and when he

was saying he wanted to eat people's children i know that was later with lennox lewis but still when he was at his most vicious after he would batter you into a bloody submission, he would then come over and hug you and tell you he loved you and tell you you were a courageous fighter and it was an honor to fight you and shit like that. You know what I mean? Even when he lost, he would come over and say like... Say some Looney Tunes shit. Yeah, after he just said an hour ago he was going to eat your children, he would come over and say it was an honor to be in a ring with you you're a real combatant and a warrior.

It was like insane. He would turn into a different guy. That was just for the fight now we're human beings again. The adrenaline has settled into my appendages and I can think again now.

Now remember police chief is there. Tons of police are there. Tons of cops. There's 500 cops there. This is also the head of the state athletic commission. Lots of important people there. 9- of cops. There's 500 cops there. This is also the head of the State Athletic Commission. Lots of important people there.

9-11 fundraiser. So they're in their respective corners. It's announced that Grant is the winner. Now as they're waiting for the decision to, they take the boxers, the corners, take their gloves off. And they just have their hand wraps on, which is just the tape. Yeah. It's just a solid fist. It's a solid fist.

With just tape across the front of the knuckles. So that's what they do. They're getting in relax mode. You want those gloves off as soon as possible. They want to check your hands. Make sure you haven't broken anything too. So the fighters come to the center of the ring after the decision just like normal. Grant holds his arms out like to hug him and he's got a smile on his face

and he holds his arms out like man you know hey good fight. Because after ten rounds after ten rounds normally guys are like man you know shit., hey, good fight. Because after 10 rounds, after 10 rounds, normally guys are like, man, you know, shit. You get to know somebody. You're grinding on them and, you know, punching them

and sweating on them. You know what they smell like. You know everything about them. Yeah, you know if you hit them right here, they fart. You know that. You know what I mean? You know what they do.

You know their grunts and their groans. It's a sexual relationship by the end of that, basically. So they do this and while Grant has his arms out to hug the hammer so bad

Butler hauls off and drills him with a right hand in the jaw cold cocked right in the jaw this is the moment that I saw

and I was like recovering that man I don't care what else he's done I don't care if he's got one DUI this is the pinnacle of his criminal career

this is nothing. It's revolting what he does. The punch makes you watch it. Find it on YouTube. You'll find it. Richard Grant, James Butler. We'll tweet it, but it's out there. It's vile what he does to him.

He dislocates his jaw. He cuts the guy's mouth. 26 stitches. 26 stitches. He falls down. One punch. Pretty much unconscious because he's got bare fist guys if you don't realize normally if you see two guys in a bar and one guy hits the other

guy he might fall down whatever even in ufc they have four ounce gloves on and they hit each other and they don't go down right a boxer without gloves on the the difference i don't and ufc people you're gonna get pissed at me and go fuck yourself. The difference between a professional boxer and a top-tier professional boxer, a champion-level boxer whose pop comes with birth, as the one guy said, the difference between that and a UFC fighter's punch are the difference between shooting a bullet and fucking throwing it. They're not the same. They're not the same.

I'm not saying the UFC guy's a pussy because he could also come down over and wrap you up and fucking tie you up and kick you in the face. He's got all sorts of skills. That's terrific. And he can hit hard. That's the difference, though, is that he's focusing on training each of those aspects of the fight. Boxing only requires one, and you have to focus on that. And also, too, the UFC fighter is the difference between shooting a bullet and throwing it to a normal guy who just hits hard he's that much better but a boxer

without gloves on just with a hand wrap throwing one punch it's deadly i mean it can kill you and it almost killed this guy knocks him out unconscious like we said the jaw thing they have to take him on a stretcher to the hospital he gets he's in the hospital like four o'clock in the morning getting stitched up he's a complete disaster. What's the kicker of this? Of this event? The kicker is that that's illegal. Not just in boxing. This is after the fight.

That's 100% illegal. That is assault and battery. And people go batshit. The crowd erupts with chants of cuff him, cuff him, lock him up, cuff him. There's plenty of cuffs there. These are the cops chanting it. They said, hey him, lock him up, cuff him. And there's plenty of cuffs there. And that's because of the cops chanting it. Because they said, hey, just punch the guy after the fight.

We should probably cuff that guy. I think that's against the law still. So the announcers are freaking out, too. The announcer's freaking out, saying he should be arrested. He should never be able to fight again. Bob Papa, the one announcer on, I think it was on ESPN, he says, quote, that's assault and battery. He should be arrested right on the spot. What a punk.

The police should come in here and arrest him and handcuff him. He's screaming. And he says that with, like, vitriol. Oh, he is pissed. They should come in here and arrest him. He's a punk. He's saying like that. He rails on him like Joe Buck did on Randy Moss when he fake mooned the Green Bay crowd.

This is hardcore. He is furious. Teddy Atlas, the other announcer said quote butler just went over there and sucker punched sucker punched and knocked out grant oh boy and the new commissioner ray kelly will do something very very enforceful here that was a punch without a glove on a despicable cowardly act enforceful is not a fucking word by the way that is not a word teddy atlas trying to be smart is hysterical he is a a boxing guy, so we'll give him that. He might have been hit in the head a few times.

Teddy Atlas. His talking abilities are minimal, though. So Grant falls to the ground. As we said, blood's pouring out of his mouth. It's pretty goddamn disgusting, honestly. He's taken away on a stretcher, like we said, goes to the hospital. Now, Butler is arrested on the spot. They go in.

They cuff him. They take him outside upstairs and take him out of the building right there. He spends the night in jail. Athletic Commissioner and new Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said, quote, he'll be suspended, the purse upheld, and he's arrested. No money. Fuck this guy, basically. I don't like it. Later on he said, too, another quote, he said,

it was the only right hand he landed all night. So he even threw a jab at him. Oh, that's fantastic. It was the only great hand. Threw night so he even threw a jab that's fantastic it was the only great hand that's good see that's not bad i like that so uh kelly said if he had his way uh butler would never box again he just says there's nothing redeemable about this guy he went off on him good he was the devil uh now november 21st 2001 this is the very next night the world is in an uproar over this guy. Everyone's saying he's the biggest piece of shit in the world because it's the biggest cheap shot you could take.

This guy comes at you to hug you and you sucker punch him. It's horrible. It's a horrible, horrible thing. There's no other way to be less of a sportsman. Absolutely. Nobody comes to his defense. Except one person comes to his defense. Except one person comes to his defense. No, no. It's Max. Max has the forum.

And Max and Sam, Sam is because Max has a boxing forum for years now. Ever since Sam has been hooked up with Butler, he's been telling Max to talk about Butler. So Sam, as Butler comes up, has been saying, hey, this guy James Butler is pretty good because he knows him. They're a posse. They hang out together, these three guys. They're're a little posse they're a little shitty little rat posse shitty little rat posse so but so kellerman writes an article at the time for espn.com titled quote butler's suspension should be in proportion and he makes a very very very reasonable case for james butler to not be in for life. Because people want him banned for life.

At this moment, he's suspended indefinitely. They'll figure it out later, basically. He's like Stanley Wilson. Cocaine again? You're not coming back for a while. Just get out of my sight. Go to your room. I'll deal with you.

I need a glass of wine, then I'll deal with you. I can't deal with you right now. I need to calm down. I need to calm down. I had a rough day at work. My mask got 26 stitches. Jesus Christ. Go to your room.

Go to your room. I had a rough day at work. A mask got 26 stitches. Go to your room. God damn it. So he says that they shouldn't try to show how tough the commission is because they're saying they're going to try to show how tough they are by banning Butler. Max brings up and rightfully so a few years earlier when Riddick Bowe, as we all remember,

a guy that we will cover actually in the next few months because he did some crazy wacky shit. But he was a heavyweight champ in the 90s there, had big fights with Tyson and with Evander Holyfield. Big fights, Riddick Bowe. Anyway, at the time, Riddick Bowe, in 1994, had a fight with a guy named Larry Donald. Meanwhile, real quick, Riddick Bowe is the coolest fucking name in the history of gaming.

It is a cool-ass name. That's a badass name. The best boxing name ever is Razor Ruddock. That's pretty cool. That's a badass. The last few years boxing, he's like, that's not a lot. He's like, it's not like Tyson where if you suspend him for a year, he made $14 million for his last fight. He's fine. He can sit around and wait for another fight. This guy has to go get a job moving fucking refrigerators if he's not allowed to fight. He lives in New York, too.

It's so fucking expensive. You're keeping him from making a living at that point. Grant's promoter, Jimmy Birchfield, that's the guy who got hit, Alien Grant here, Birchfield said, quote, this is about Grant, quote, he hasn't been able to eat since the fight. This is a week later. I've never seen anyone get hit with a punch like this.

Blood squirting out of his mouth. He looked like he was dead. Yes, he did. He did. He looked like he was dead. He really did. It looked like he killed him. Yeah.

It was entirely possible. Grant had a great quote on the sucker punch, on being sucker punched. A month and a half later when his tongue was able to operate for speech. When they took the stitches

out of his mouth, this is what he said. He said, quote, I won the fight. He can do whatever he wants after the fight, but the fact remains that I beat him. Regardless of whether he gets jail time for what he said he said quote i won the fight he can do whatever he wants after the fight but the fact remains that i beat him regardless of whether he gets jail time for what he did or not his boxing career is finished it's over he's done wow he's like fuck him yeah this guy's not scared he's a boxer he's like didn't hurt me it's fine i get punched in the

face all the time no worries i'm cool his fucking boxing career is done. I beat his ass. Now, obviously the major question here that everybody would be asking is, why in the shit did James Butler do this? Why would you do this? Because he's bipolar. What are you doing? Right. What the fuck are you doing? What the fuck are you doing?

Honestly. I want, at this point, him to be hungry and starving and go into a place for something. And there will be the shawarma man. And he will say. How is it you've come to arrive here? Why are you here? What do you think?

Why are you thinking? You punch guy in face. Sign say close. Punch guy in face. Fight over. Sign say close. When the fight over, sign close. You punch guy in face. Sign say closed. Punch guy in face. Fight over. Sign say closed. When fight over, sign closed. You knock him in.

You punch him in face. Same thing. The bell ring. You want shawarma? I make for you. Fine. Fine. Sign say closed.

Why you do this? You come here. You have rap video with Jewish people. I don't understand. You punch him. Make no sense. Sign say closed. He was very upset.

The shawarma man, but Butler about it after the shawarma man questioned him and said, what the fuck are you thinking? Sign say closed. He says, quote, in their own words, quote, nothing went through my mind. That's the point. It was flatline. I was like dead. I went blank. After I hit Richard, Wow. Holy shit. Instead you broke a jaw, bro. Instead you decided to do that. That's amazing. You fucking complete moron psychopath lunatic. That's psychotic. It's beyond psychotic. That's a detriment to society kind of behavior though. Oh yeah. You can't do that. That's some loose cannon shit right there. You have deadly weapons attached to your fucking shoulders. You can't just throw those willy nilly. Put it this way. How many boxing matches take place on the earth every year? All the time. Hundreds of them. This never happens.

It's happening right now. Decisions go on all the time. The guys are trained for it. But they're pros. This wasn't his first fight, and he didn't know there was a possibility he might lose. This is a thing. I mean, I don't know.

He couldn't take the embarrassment. I don't know what the hell it was. But November 27, 2001, a couple days later, Butler is suspended indefinitely by the New York State Commission. Duh. He has 20 days to respond to this with some sort of petition to get back in. He faces up to seven years in prison for the second-degree felony assault of Richard Grant. Absolutely. Because you can't do that.

And they're trying to make an example out of him. Now, at this point, he's having these problems. Sam Kellerman and him are tight. And Sam at this point moves out to L.A. in 2002. He's going to try to become an actor. And he's doing some stuff. He actually has a little bit of success. He writes a lot of shit, too.

He's trying to write screenplays. Like I said, he put plays on and that sort of thing. He appears on a British TV commercial for cell phones, a commercial that had Christina Aguilera on it. I don't know what company it was for, but whatever company Christina Aguilera worked for in 2002. He was in it. Fucking cell phones.

He was in it. He appeared in a Pepsi commercial. He got an audition for the show Entourage, and in 2004 they were bringing him to the set because they were trying to figure out where to fit him into the show because they liked him so much. And he seems like an entourage-y kind of guy.

Yeah, he had an entourage. Which is not a compliment at all. But he seems like a great person. I don't want to say that about him. He really, Sam Kellerman seems like a top-notch guy and entourage-ish. He doesn't fit like he seems like he fits in thatch guy and entourage-ish. He doesn't fit. He seems like he fits in that. Gaggle of douchebags.

That's all it is. Also, too, he's a regular contributor at FoxSports.com writing sports articles. All right. Just like his brother here. He's good at it. He's a great writer and he's smart and he knows his sports. Now, September of 2002, back to James Butler, he pleads guilty to second-degree assault charges in September. Yeah, because it's on goddamn—you literally did it in front of the police commissioner.

You don't have any plausible deniability. Not only is it on television, how many times is it—out of all the crimes that are committed in the country, in the world, how many of them are literally with the police commissioner sitting front row with a thing of popcorn while you do it? How often does that happen? That never happens. Never. That's the one in a billion. Remember how I said he was lucky with the guy who was not a molester? No, he's not so lucky. He's back to being an unlucky hamburger, eating shit bag at this point. Basically, they tell him he's going to serve. The sentence is he's going to serve four months. I think it's six months. And they tell him he's going to serve. They, they, the sentence is he's going to serve four months.

I think it's six months. And they tell him you're, you've been served four with good behavior. Four months for assault. Four months in Rikers Island too, which is not good. Wow. Yeah. Rikers is a shithole. So that's, that's, that's not, yeah.

He wishes he took that fucking punch back. We'll put it that way. Uh, he does this four months in December of 2002. He's released from rikers island because this was in september of 2002 so basically four months later he gets released from rikers island a harder man now a harder man wanting to get his shit together okay he begins taking the medication for his bipolar because he wasn't doing that before he was off his meds now this continually happens when he takes his medication,

and this is a reason why he constantly goes off his medication. He fights at 168 pounds. That's his kind of probably walking around weight's probably 180 pounds. He balloons up to 256 pounds on this medication. So it just balloons. It's like a steroid or something? It slows down your metabolism. Good grief.

And he just, I mean, boom, blows him up. 256 is big for that guy. Yeah. That's, he'd gain 80 pounds, man. Anybody gaining 80 pounds is a lot of weight. And imagine how shitty he feels about himself anyway with that, too. He's made to complete an anger management course when he gets out. Obviously, he's, you he's going to meetings and

bipolar group counseling and things like that. Should he meet? Absolutely. Now, January 2003, this is the next month, he completes the anger management. He moves down to Vero Beach, Florida. This is a good move. He's going to train with legendary trainer Buddy McGirt.

You've probably heard of Buddy McGirt. He's a legendary trainer. He's trained a lot of people. Down there also meets a girl he meets a nice girl they get together he impregnates her she ends up having a son with him down there in the next year or so did he name it the third so he does not name the third luckily that i saw thank fuck maybe the girl had some better scruples she's like i'm not naming it James Butler. Absolutely. And she said too, when he goes down there and starts training, after the medication and all that, he starts getting off his meds

so he can train because he needs to cut weight. Yeah. So in order to get his shit together, he's got to get off the meds. Yeah. So he's trying to basically keep it together

with training and mental, you can't do that. He needs medication. With physical therapy rather than chemical therapy. He needs medication. Physical therapy rather than chemical therapy. He needs medication, this guy.

Some people just need, I mean, I'm not a big Medicaid everybody thing, but some people, if you're that messed up in the head and your chemicals

are imbalanced, God damn it, take what helps you. You're dangerous as fuck. Never mind everyone else too, obviously, but you're also dangerous to yourself.

Help yourself. So get help out there. We know most of you are mentally ill that are listening. Please get help. We beg of you. But still keep listening. So maybe don't get help because then you We know most of you are mentally ill that are listening. Please get help. We beg of you. But still keep listening.

So maybe don't get help because then you won't like us anymore. So we're going to be really controlling and say, don't get help. Listen to the voices. It's okay. Crime and sports loves you. Keep listening. It's all right. Never mind if your family doesn't like you.

We're your family. You live in a $5 motel room next to Daryl Alums. No problem. We love you. So we have a new5 motel room next to Daryl Alums? No problem. We love you. Mommy loves you. Mommy loves you. Huh, James Butler? I wondered that would have been great if he went down next to him and said,

James Butler loves you. Why won't you get up? Why are you bleeding from the mouth? And also, too, and this isn't even in my notes, but this is something I meant to just throw out there. In just a contrast of the type of people they are, Sam Kellerman and Mr. Butler here, Butler knocks out Grant angrily, gets arrested, the whole deal. When he's a teenager, Sam, he is known for he got in a fight with a kid on the street,

some kid that was from Albania or something, which was an odd thing. Anyway, he gets in a fight and he cut him open. He cut the Albanian kid open and gashed his forehead. And so he went into a store and got a bunch of napkins and then came out and helped him with the wound and got it all wet with water. That's so sweet. And fixed him up and picked him up and put him on his way. Good God, he's a saint. Yeah, that's the type of guy he is and not james butler so here's a

quote in their own words from james butler on his illness on his bipolar disorder he says quote you end up hurting people you love they try to help you and you flip on that on them for some small thing i've taken the classes read the books i know what to do you when you flip on them for some small thing. I've taken the classes, read the books. I know what to do. You can reach a level where you don't need medication anymore. You just have to be strong-minded. No. No.

As a matter of fact, that is not true at all. That's not how it works at all. He felt good one day because he was in a manic state. And he's like, this is great. No, I'm good. You get to a point where you're good and it's fine and everything feels great and it's fine. And then he's Eeyore the next fucking day. He's in there, I just don't want to do nothing but that day he was

like no no you get to the point where mentally you just get out there you exercise you really take the world by the balls you know what i mean you get out there you do you make a rap song do it let's do it hey who's got an article i'm gonna write an article for fox sports sam get me on fox sports all right good set schedule that next fight who wants to hit the heavy bag come on i'm ready sometimes you got to punch this world in the face and get on with your day yeah that's right come on kick him right in the dick let's go all right moving on ain't nothing gonna get me down no oh i got to keep uh oh all right i know that song it's a song from the 80s right i think it was from the 80s yeah okay all right i'm going manic james butler so uh june 2003 six months into his training he petitions for reinstatement

into boxing he's gonna try to getitions for reinstatement into boxing. He's going to try to get his shit together, get back into boxing. They said, let's show good faith that for six months you're just going to train. You're not going to just try to get back in the second you get out of prison, basically. Let's show, hey, look at me. I'm trying to get it together. Look, I can do this. Show a track record of improvement.

Absolutely. So he has his comeback fight in 2004. Finally, he goes in for reinstatement. Now, the crazy thing about this whole reinstatement is the two people who are the largest, biggest proponents of reinstatement of James Butler in the boxing are the Kellerman brothers. Huge. The Kellerman boys are trying to get him back in the boxing. Of course. They're doing it.

They're writing articles. Like I said, you knew about Of course. They're doing it. They're writing articles. Like I said, you knew about Max's from a couple years ago. Max continually writes articles. Sam pens an article for BoxSports.com that, goddammit, I swear to Christ, Jimmy, I can't tell you. If any of you listeners can find this fucking article somewhere, literally I scoured really you couldn't find it it's gone they scrubbed it it's wow gone because he said so much nice you're gonna

know the reason why in a few but it's gone he basically says it's an article about his mental illness that's where that uh bipolar quote came from the other words the last one was from the sam kellerman article it was about how he struggles with it and how he's doing better and how it was basically a fluff piece on james butler about how he's mentally ill and he's you know a good guy and he's just trying to get it together and that's the the from somebody that's in his life yeah i saw like a piece here and a quote of it here and things like that but i haven't been able to see the whole article but it's they quote the gist of it all the time so and after all this he gets back into boxing in 2004 through his friends and he's super excited his first fight is in the bronx and he's like i'm fighting in new york again this is crazy i never expected it and he's just super

happy he's on a huge manic swing with his boxing called james but So February 27, 2004, in the Key Skating Center in the Bronx, which does not again sound like the Mecca. It's not Madison Square Garden exactly. It's not exactly Wembley. He loses a unanimous decision to Thomas Reed in his comeback fight. Now this brings his

record to 18-4. Those losses are climbing. They're climbing he's starting to now now he ends up winning two more fights here because that's his first fight in three years too you guys so he might be a little rusty whatever so may and june he fights in may and june a month apart wow uh he wins two unanimous decisions now they are over dan sheehan and reggie strickland reggie strickland is the most legendary loser in the history of boxing. Have you heard of him?

He sounds like somebody that they just toss in there to help somebody pad their numbers. Okay, well, they've done that a few too many times. Listen to his goddamn record. Oh, Jesus. Jimmy, brace yourself. Crime and sports, people, movement, brace yourself. His record was 66 wins, 27 losses oh my god and 17 draws oh my god that's so many losses 66 wins he only had like 14 knockouts 276 losses only 25 of them are knockouts

so that's how many times this guy's gone the distance kicked He's just getting his ass kicked. How the fuck is he allowed to keep boxing? How is he alive? You cannot be hit in the head in 350 matches and not have... And keep your driver's license. Unbelievable. That is terrifying. He has the record

for the most losses in professional boxing. It's like a world record for it. That's embarrassing. That's who they put him against. And he couldn't even knock this guy out. Unanimous decision.

Then again, this guy seems like he just knows how to cover up and go the distance. You would expect so so anyway he's he's still training with mcgirt at this point the trainer that he needs here he wins these two fights he has another fight set up for august that's a big fight with omar shika who is 20 and 6 and is actually a contender omar shiki's 20 and 6 but on the upswing of 20 and 6, not the downswing of, like James is 20 and 4 at this point, and on the downswing of that. But

Butler and McGirt, the trainer, part company in July of 2004, a month before the fight. Amicable split. McGirt had to spend more time. He had a title contender with an upcoming fight. He said, I've got to put my time here and I don't have time for you. I can't be out here with you running around with chickens. You fought

a guy with 276 losses. I think you'll be okay without me. You're fine. So he goes. And now in Essex County College in Newark, New Jersey, again, another just the glamour, Jimmy. The glamour, the glitz, the queen mother was there. You know, Jay-Z

was there. People got dressed up for this. Obama, they were all there before he was president. People wandered in with flip-flops. He knew. It was there. You know, Jay-Z was there. People got dressed up for this. Obama, they were all there before he was president. People wandered in with flip-flops. He knew. Right. It was, yeah,

everybody. So, it's, they wandered in. This is not the best deal here. But it's actually a decent fight contender. And they're trying

to pump up James as like a, or Butler as like a comeback story. James Butler. I picture like this fight with like a carnival barker on the street corner

being like, we got boxing inside. We got boxing. We got a crazy train wreck versus a guy named the Sheikah. So they fight here. Butler ends up losing a split decision in this fight. So he actually fights a valiant fight, loses a split decision. Somebody sided with him.

You can't knock this Butler out. He's got a tough jaw. He's strong. Now, he just basically was not in these fights. His heart wasn't in it. If you're not knocking out a guy with 276 losses, and you're a contender, it's not going well. There's a problem. There's a problem.

And it's all up in the head of his. Absolutely. And one of Butler's trainers here said, James was only going through the motions for that payday. James was in the ring physically speaking. Mentally, he wasn't really there. He's talking about that after the comeback. It just wasn't there for him. And plus, he wasn't really there. No. He's talking about that after the comeback. It just wasn't there for him.

And plus, he wasn't taking his fucking medication, too. Right. It's hard to be present. So he was out of sorts mentally. Sam Kellerman is in L.A. trying to make it, basically. Butler is having a hard time. Butler claims that in September of 2004, his apartment was destroyed by a hurricane in Florida. And he claims that he had his wife and his son down there

and he had to like carry buckets of water to use the toilet. And he brought this whole big horror story, right? So he had moved up to the Catskills for like a week to, you know, it's where a lot of boxing trainers are. And he was up there with somebody and then he ended up going, just shows up in LA in september of 2004 shows up by himself in la his wife and son or his girlfriend and son are still in florida yep he shows up on sam's doorstep i need a place to stay yeah he says i'm here um you know how you doing

basically butler tells him i have nowhere to go a hurricane destroyed my apartment i have an upcoming fight in california yeah and i need to train and stuff and i just i just got here and i don't know where to go or what to do right so sam of course says hey come stay for a few days yeah you're my buddy and i'm always he's always trying to help he'd have taken someone off the street and it seems like this guy he's such a good guy he agrees to let him stay feels bad for butler made him a key the whole deal is like you know oh my god he's just he's known him forever i mean they've known each other since they were kids and he showed up and he wants to help him right ends up this he

thought it was just a few days kellerman said yeah he thought he was just weeks go by oh god three four weeks go by now it's getting uh you know pay rent motherfucker yeah it's getting like when is this guy leaves it's not even a matter of pay rent it's i want this it's a tiny apartment he lives in hollywood by himself he lives in hollywood it's a small apartment he's got no room for this guy he's a big guy who's bipolar and you know kind of a mood couch is a little lumpy you might have to sleep in there with you it's yeah man but he has literally has no one to turn to but sam uh jack stanton who was butler's first manager back in the day said quote boxing was all james really had well boxing and sam so basically he's got nothing.

He's got no family. He's got no nothing. He's just got Sam and fighting, and he sucks at fighting now. Well, he had a girlfriend and a son. Yeah, but they're down in Florida somewhere. They're out of sight, out of mind. So after a few weeks, that comes into play as Butler begins to get irritable. Sam starts suspecting that he's not on his medication.

He starts to act, he's acting real high and real low. He would say that he hated L.A. and he would complain about Sam's tiny apartment. Why are you here, bro?

Airport's that way, dude. You know, he said, I haven't held my son in four weeks and I don't know what I'm going to do. I didn't tell you to come here.

Said he would get real depressed and then an hour later he'd be rambling incoherently just like they did before and just going crazy and, you know, I'm here. Said he would get real depressed, and then an hour later he'd be rambling incoherently, just like they did before, just going crazy. And, you know, he's obviously like he's not taking his meds. He's having these ups and downs.

It's clear what's going on here. Yeah, it's obvious what's going on. So he was getting a little scared of the whole thing here. Of course. And also, too, after a couple weeks, Butler told him he was cutting down his meds because he needed to train and lose weight. But he was really not taking them at all. A friend of Sam's said, quote, about this whole situation, quote, Sam really wanted him out, but at the same time felt bad for him.

Butler had no other friends, and he told me everyone else had left his life. So he was fucking sad for the guy, and he felt for him. And this odd couple is trapped in a tiny ass apartment in LA. That's the odd couple right there. That is, never mind Tony Randall. That is the real odd couple there. Walter Matthau. This is the odd couple.

So October 11, 2004. He's still there. He came a month ago. Sam comes home from dinner with an actress friend of his named claudia salinas hell yeah and you know me i'm sure he wanted to bang this i got an apartment come on this way come on over here i completely forgot about my unstable room and he opened the door and you got a crazy man sitting on the couch and that's literally what happened he was on the couch watching tv and so sam sam had a deadline for fox sports where he needed to write a story about a game.

So he said, hey, James. He rushed home to do this. He said, hey, James, this is 2004. You couldn't stream shit like that on your phone yet. Find a beach and wander so that I can get on the internet. No smartphones yet. This was still like texting was cool. Hey, I got a camera.

Neat. That was it. You couldn't really just browse everything. So there was no apps. So anyway, he says, I need to watch a game for this column i'm writing can you please change the channel and james said no i'm not changing the channel he was just like nope not doing it so sam said seriously dude i'm on a deadline i gotta see the end of the game so i can finish this article come on and james said wait for the commercial so he's just not being cooperative he's just saying no fuck, fuck you, dude.

You don't live here, man. Sam's like, shit. Sam doesn't know what to do. How do you kick that guy out? That's the thing. How do you do it? A, physically, how do you do it? And B, emotionally, he's attached to the guy, too.

He feels terrible for the guy. They're childhood friends. He feels like he's out here with nobody. In his mind, his apartment got destroyed by a hurricane. He doesn't want to kick him out he's got nothing i've got it i gotta help him to save his life in essence already tried to help him with his career right so sam is frustrated he tells claudia his friend the actress let's go take a walk for a minute he tells him let's take a walk you can blow me in my car come blow me in the car it's fine my room's off like casino so he tells her yeah so talk about veal so he tells her So he tells her, yeah, he's going to talk about Veal.

So he tells her, he tells her, quote, it's like that all the time. And they start talking about that. And he told her that he's decided that he has to tell James to leave. Has to tell Butler it's time to go. Like, he's ruining my life. He's got to be somewhere else. Yeah, he's ruining my life. It's not working here.

my life. It's not working here. So that day, that same day, James's boxing manager back in Florida, David Berlin, sends James a money order for a ticket to Florida. It lands in Kellerman's mailbox that day. Gotcha. Okay. So he's ready to go back to Florida. He's finally got a way out. He can go back to Florida. Okay. That's October 11th october 17th let's take a skip for a second october 17th 2004 it's six days later sunday night at 5 45 p.m uh-oh uh police respond to a call at max's apartment oh no one of sam's friends and actually max couldn't get a hold of sam right so max uh asked his friend who lived in la a guy named Steve Schneider, if he could go check on Max for him. And so he went over, knocked on the door. He said all those shades were down.

His car wasn't there. Yeah. So he just said no. He left. And then he said, no, can you go back again? And he's like, seriously, I can't get a hold of you. There's something wrong. I need you to kick the fucking door in there.

I need you to figure out where the fuck this guy is, basically. So they broke a window. Schneider and one of his friends broke a window, crawled through the window, and they saw some shit. Inside, there was blood all over the walls. Oh, my God. Spatter to style. Oh, my God. Blood spatter all over the walls.

Like somebody was beaten to death? Like somebody exploded, basically. Oh, Jesus. Blood all over the walls, and they find a lump under a blanket in the living room. Yeah. So they're like, oh, shit. Don't touch that. No, they jump out of the...

Get the fuck out. They get the fuck out. They call the cops immediately. The cops show up at 745 to the address here. They burst in. Police detective Elizabeth Estupinian found the body under the blanket. Next to the body, five feet away, kind of standing up against the wall is a bloody hammer. Oh, my God.

A bloody hammer. Okay. So, first of all, let's digest. I want to laugh so hard right now. You know what, guys? This is horrible and we're all sitting here with our jaws open. Let's digest the irony and laugh for one second. The guy named The Hammer.

The Harlem Hammer. We don't know what happened here. Right, right, right. It's looking bad. It's probably suspected. The fact that there's a hammer there. Definitely a person of interest. They said, hey, who was staying here too?

Oh, James Butler. Oh, okay. You know, he goes by the hammer. Do you mean the Harlem Hammer? You mean the hammer? So, yeah, they find the hammer standing up, covered in blood against the wall. They also find several areas of burned carpet and wall

all over the house. There's several big burns all over the place too. Like someone tried to set the house on fire in addition to this thing here right so obviously butler's wanted for questioning they're they're interested in his whereabouts like a little chat uh his car is gone too his car sam's car is gone did they just did they decide it was sam underneath the blanket they found it it's sam under the blanket. His skull is crushed beyond recognition. He is a bloody mess under this blanket.

It is his 1993 Cadillac Seville with Texas license plates J04GHX is also missing. That's right, I got that license plate. That's pretty impressive. That's right, I got mine. So Sam's 29 years old, or was 29 years old at this point. He didn't even make it to 30 which is sad as shit here that's terrible um now a couple days go by they're searching for butler yeah where's his butler where's his car they all uh you know they don't know where he is now october 20th butler calls the police on himself from the ucla medical center he has his lawyer with him

uh he says he doesn't even know where he is he's so out of it has his lawyer tell the police where he is because he couldn't figure it out the police come and arrest him yeah they earlier that day they had found sam's cadillac near the ucla campus nearby that's convenient convenient right uh so lapd captain mike downing said quote i thought he'd be in florida by now it was a good break for us. He was like, oh shit. I don't know. I figured he was gone. We got a break in the case. He called us. I guess we'll arrest him then. Fine.

So at this point that day they do the autopsy on old Sam Kellerman. On what's left of Sam. Cause of death is said to be blunt force trauma to the head. Approximately 32 blows from an object consistent with a hammer. Basically, the way they constructed it, again, he was sitting at his desktop computer typing the article,

probably more than likely, and he was hit from behind with the hammer. So this guy, he's sitting there typing the article. This guy, he's trying to help, is at his his house he comes up with a fucking hammer and drills and drills him and then a lesson to you guys stop helping people stop helping everyone just stay in your house lock the door roll them up lock them down everybody just don't let anyone in it's nothing this is why i don't want to talk to old people what was what was her quote yeah don't talk to old people what was her quote what was what was uh uh velva velva's quote it's the world uh because the world is cruel it

is chaos if you are weak you fall i believe james fell she fucking called it knocked it right on the right on the nose with a hammer uh with a big old bloody hammer. Kapow. From Harlem. So, yeah, 32 blows to the head. 32? And then how much you'd be tired beating someone 32 times. Well, maybe not if you're a pro boxer. But still. You're still exhausted.

How messed up is that? 32. I mean, it goes after him with that. I was just... It's one thing if you have any... This guy did nothing but help him, and then he just said one time, hey, dude, you're kind of cramping my style. He bashes his fucking head in with a hammer

within 12 hours of it. Holy shit. So, I mean, would this have happened if he crossed him at any point in their relationship, or is this just low point? No, it would have. Butler's charged with first-degree murder on the 23rd. First-degree murder and arson,

because he tried to set the place on fire, too pleads not guilty in court in los angeles a hearing regarding men his mental status is set for october 28th i got an idea he's fucking looney tunes yeah that's one thing but he's sane enough to proceed with this he knows right from wrong things like that after the murder butler says his statement on this whole thing he says he went to the ucla medical center to seek a bipolar group that he could get in and talk about shit he told police i don't know who killed sam he said i was on october 12th i was there everything was fine i went out for a short walk came back i found sam dead on the floor he goes i come in there's blood everywhere sam's dead on the floor i didn't know what to do why why don't you call so he tells police in his statement that he's

so distraught that he you know he had to drink an entire bottle of wine and he had to cover sam up with a blanket because it was really difficult to watch tv while Sam was laying there with his skull cracked open. That's tough. Nobody wants to sit there and, you know, you're watching your show and you're like, oh, there's brain on the floor. It's really difficult to do, you know? What an asshole. This son of a bitch smells so bad.

He's trying to watch this cooking show. Stop decomposing over there. I'm trying to watch this. So he says that he was so distraught, he drank the bottle of wine, and then he went in the bathtub and filled it up with water and started cutting himself with a razor blade, hoping he'd bleed out.

Meanwhile, he didn't really have any cuts on him. If you want to bleed out in a bathtub, you can bleed out in a fucking bathtub. He was just saying that. Says he has no idea, doesn't remember setting the fires at all. No clue about that. Just who knows how that happened.

I have no idea. How the fuck did you forget that? I mean mean he's just saying like i just went out for a walk came home but whatever your excuse is saying i went out and come back if you called the police right away maybe you could have got a hold yes then also too they found his clothes in a bloody pile in the bathroom oh no he says those are his that's his blood after cutting himself up but you know they have things you can test that and they said oh no that's all sam's blood right all over your clothes not yours at all there's none of yours on here on here actually so it's an odd thing uh a los angeles deputy uh district attorney bjorn dodd you know said that uh said of the case quote the most unusual about this is not if but did it, but why he did it.

There doesn't seem to be any bad blood between the two of them. There's no motive. Everyone was shocked. Absolutely. Trainer Buddy McGirt here said, quote,

when he was down here, he was fine. I don't know what happened when he left. I didn't even know he was in California. I had no problems with him at all.

He had a lot of potential. He was his own worst enemy. He was hard on himself. No doubt. He was his own worst enemy. And he was hard on fucking Sam, too. Hard on Sam, too. No doubt. He was his own worst enemy. And he was hard on fucking Sam, too. Hard on Sam, too.

Jesus, I can't be homeless crack. So the California State Athletic Commission, by the way, had no record of Butler scheduled to fight anybody in California. He was completely full of shit. He doesn't even have a boxing license in California. Oh, no. And the only thing they could get is a promoter briefly talk to him for like a day

but he wasn't picked and he knew he wasn't picked and that was when he was already out there. Oh no. So he just lied the whole thing. He just had nowhere else to go.

Why not just tell the guy I have nowhere else to go? Sam would have probably helped him instead. Sam gave a shit. He was helping him. He was the only guy that gave a shit.

Absolutely. So the detective that found the body said quote through all his troubles the kellerman brothers always stood by him they have really really good hearts the kellermans always gave him a second chance and it's really tragic even the cops were like what a nice guy he was i mean jesus christ sam was a great guy his whole family loved him his friends

i mean he had all his family and friends. Everybody's fucking crushed. Mama Velva's not happy. Mama Velvita's kid's in trouble. She's in prison. He's in prison now. He's locked up for this. He's got a son that has no dad. He's got a son in Florida that has no dad. He's got a girlfriend that's abandoned now.

Poor Richard Grant, the alien, has got a messed up jaw and everything. People in prison have to deal with this guy now. I feel bad for all these people, Jimmy. I feel so bad for all these people. Jesus, not even close to as bad as I feel for these people. We could sit here all night with these. I just picked a few that I thought were fun.

I feel bad for James Butler, a running back at St. Francis High School in Wheaton, Illinois, because he's an athlete. 5'9", 195 pounds, possibly going to the University of Nevada on Rivals.com. Keep on track, fucker. James Butler,

Vice President of Student Recruitment at Shorelight Education in Boston, Massachusetts. Or a boxer and murderer. Or a boxer and James Butler, a 6'6", 210-pound senior center at the Lake braddock high school basketball team that's a big kid he had last year he had a 46.16 rebound game against tc

williams high how good is he with a hammer i we'll find out give him a couple of years and some some not being on his meds and we'll see what happens i wonder if he gets the hamburger helper so brother james butler what president at lasalle college catholic high school in the greater philadelphia area he appears to be a priest he's got a collar on in his picture so brother james butler sure he is for sure he's a priest wild bill hickcock james butler hickcock That's his real fucking name. His real name was James Butler? Old West guy, James Butler Hickok. The first black cowboy. Wild Bill Hickok's real name is James Butler Hickok. And even though he's been dead for 130 years, he's still ashamed.

He's still fucking ashamed. Absolutely horrible. James Butler Jr. Uh-oh. James Butler Jr., senior scientist, section chief of geohydrology at the Kansas Geological Survey in Lawrence, Kansas. Check his criminal record. He's a junior. And finally, James Butler Sr. It could be his dad.

There's no picture. I have no fucking idea. The mystery is killing me. But he's an associate broker and auctioneer at Century 21 Horizon Realty in Baltimore, Maryland. So if you live in Baltimore, Maryland, look this up. Go down there and find out if this is the guy. Say, did you knock a woman named Velveeta up in Harlem about 40 years ago? That's hilarious.

Now, Max on Sam's death, Max Kellerman from television, as we all know here, he said of the quote of Max, and this is sad, he said, quote, Though it would seem that Sam's fate suggests no good deed goes unpunished, Sam's life did not suggest that at all. It was full of good deeds. Sam believed that life came with the responsibility of empathy and kindness. So that was very nice. That's true. He's in jail awaiting. On July 9th, 2005, the judge in this case,

Judge Kevin Brown, ruled that there is definitely enough evidence to try Butler on charges of murder and arson. No shit. His blood is all over his clothes. God forbid. He's got his car. There he had his car. It adds up, let's just say. Yeah. So March 27th, 2000, jury selection all set to begin the next day for this trial. Get it on March 28, 2006. Butler says, hold on a moment here. Let's hold up. First degree murder. Is there any pleas I can accept?

First degree murder has a ring to it that I don't care for. Is there anything else we can do with this? So instead, Butler pleads guilty to voluntary manslaughter and arson. Sentencing is set for April 5th, which is a week from now. I love that they keep that arson tagged on there. They keep that arson. You tried to burn some shit. Plus, then he can also get,

then he has to pay back the apartment owner, which is part of his sentence also, we'll get to. A little restitution. Defense attorney Jack Keenan said, quote, I think it's a fair resolution to the case. He's always been sorry for what he did, and in the end thought of Sam Kellerman as a friend. Well, he shouldn't have bashed his fucking head into the hammer.

For a few minutes he didn't. That would have been a few very, very important minutes. He didn't quite think it was a threat. At least 32 seconds, I'll say that. Absolutely. At least 32. He might have paused and looked around. Could have taken a breath.

He probably took a breath. He probably did. Probably started and looked around. Could have taken a breath. He probably took a breath. He probably did. Probably started and was like, oh. Had a glass of wine. I don't know. Changed the channel. Back into this. 17 more.

Where's that blanket? Hold on. Bang, bang, bang. So April 5th, 2006 is sentencing day. Jane Robinson, the spokeswoman for the district attorney's office, said, quote, It's possible Mr. Kellerman asked him to move out or there was disagreement over how long he could stay with him, and it resulted in him picking up a hammer.

The judge called it a slaughter, is what the quote was. I would too. And the judge sentences him to, you, sir, may fuck off 29 years, four months. Wow. And that is after taking into account almost two years of time off for time served. And that's a plea bargain. He's already been there. That's a plea bargain.

29 years, four months. Instead of life. No fucking around. Yeah. And that starts in 2006, so he's in there for a while. He's still got quite a ways to go. He's eligible for parole in 2024, I want to say. He's not getting out.

And he's not getting out. No. Also, too, he is required to pay $17,853 in funeral costs to the Kellermans for Sam's funeral, $10,000 to the state victim

restitution fund, and $11,882 to the owner of Sam's apartment for damages due to the bloodstains and If you added that up at home, that's

almost $40,000. That's almost $40,000. He is never paying At the tune of a dollar a day that he's making right now. He's fucking dying

for that. He will never, ever, ever pay that in a million goddamn000. He is never paying. At the tune of a dollar a day that he's making right now. Fucking dying for that. He will never, ever, ever pay that in a million goddamn years. He needs to start selling Coke in prison to make that money. Oh, yeah. Hey, maybe he should. You know what? Talk to Lee Murray. Get a hold of him in Moroccan jail.

I bet they can get something going. L.A. to Morocco. Now, his lasting legacy, James Butler, is on the website, fightsthefightcity.com, and this is just representative of all the websites that have such a list. His punch is known as, is rated as, the number one all-time worst cheap shot in boxing history. Awesome.

All time. And they're going all the way back to Jack Dempsey taking a cheap shot at somebody. I'm not fucking around in the 20s. Shaking hands with somebody and blasting them in the face is the cheapest shot you can take. Apart from hitting somebody with a ball-peen hammer in the back of their head while they're typing on a computer. So he has the two cheapest shots in the history of the world.

Whether it be in or out of the ring. Well, actually, I would count 33 cheap shots because of those 32. That's true. Yeah, it adds up to 33. Good job, Butler. 33 cheapest shots in the history of the world. Salute, you fucking scumbag.

I hope you're a rotten fucking prison asshole. Jesus, good job, buddy. I hope you find something sharp and open a vein, you dick. Yeah, why isn't he killing himself now if he's so godless suicidal? Yeah, you're so remorseful. Fucking end it. We're fine with it. That is James Butler. We encourage it. Go ahead, asshole.

What a piece of shit. Go ahead and kill yourself, dick. I told you this would be great. Yes, it was great. I don't like this person at all. And I really like Sam Kellerman a lot. Yeah, there's no redeeming qualities about him. And sometimes you're like, oh, that person's the person they killed. And we feel bad for the victims always.

But it's like some people are just like, hey, you know what? He was a scumbag. And he hung out with scumbags. And they all got killed. Sam Kellerman was just a nice guy. He was the brightest spot in his life. Didn't fucking deserve this at all. And you know what, Max is a good guy too.

And, you know, I bitch at him about first take and all that kind of shit. But he's actually a decent guy and he's tried to do a lot of nice things for a lot of nice people. And he really encouraged Sam to be a good guy too. And he's a decent guy and I feel so fucking bad that he has to put up with Stephen A. Smith's goddamn douche fucking ass all the time. Sorry, Max. First your brother dying, now Stephen A. It's terrible.

We're going to do some shoutouts. Speaking of good people. Yeah, speaking of good people, quick. First of all, too, if you want to get shoutouts, also you can donate to our Patreon page this week. All the pens I use, all the note cards are all from patreon last month thank you guys so much all the money we used for that because we spend a fortune i literally use about 200 index cards and i try to use the color ones that are thick so i can just keep some organization and organization

in this mess and there's more organization in this podcast than there is in James' life. Oh, God, by far. This is the most organized thing I have. Everything else is on fire. Not just your life. James Butler's life, too. James Butler, absolutely. But thank you for the Patreon.

Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports. If you want to throw us a few bucks or some cool rewards, and God, we really appreciate it. It really helps keep the show going. Monica in Seattle did it. Monica in Seattle did it. A couple other people. And also, too, if you want to get a shout-out, you can contact us on Twitter at Crime and Sports,

crimeandsports at gmail.com. You can get us facebook.com slash crimeandsports. Join the fun. We all get together. Now the people, all of you guys are getting to know each other. The Wedbetters buying cricket bats from Python Cricket. It's really, yeah, there's commerce

involved in this, Jimmy. This is great. Through Crime and Sports. It's awesome. We have some shout outs. For all your cricket needs, go to Python Cricket. Go to PythonCricket.com.

Jimmy's got some shout outs here. Speaking of good people that have done amazing things, Jonathan Gillian. Ah, the good Reverend Jonathan Gillian. He changed his profile on Facebook

to the Reverend. Now, if you guys don't know the backstory, Jonathan Gillyard is just, he was a listener, and he's still a listener, but we'd shout him out a couple times, and just the name Jonathan Gillyard, to me, sounded like it should have the good Reverend before it. The good Reverend Jonathan Gillyard.

And he changed his name. So it stuck, and we call him the Rev now, and he changed his name on Facebook, and it says the Rev under it. We fucking love him for that. God, you're the man, Jonathan Kelly. You are the fifth horseman, goddammit. Five horsemen.

If you guys don't like that, what's five though? It's so weird. The five of you between Busby and Sean and Monge and who's our other one? Why am I spacing one? Busby. No, I said Busby. Sean and Monge and... Who's our other one? Why am I spacing one? Busby. No, I said Busby.

A story of Sean. Monge, Wedbetter, Busby and Sean. That was the one. Wedbetter is our guy. We'd already talked about him. That's why I forgot. There's another one. Anyway.

The five of you, figure it out. Figure out whatever five is. Figure out what comes in a group of five and you're that now. Enjoy. Rory Tullock and Nina nina dresler professor p in glasgow yes i'm his only follower on twitter i guess and he was super excited about that uh nia wrong at dorothy damaged i don't know what that is that's very rory sent me a nice facebook message calling me a cunt oh the first one was you're a cunt and i just looked and i'm like i

don't know this person i just got called a cunt and then like what a guy. The first one was, you're a cunt. And I just looked and I'm like, I don't know this person. I just got called a cunt. And then, I'm like, what is this? And then two seconds later, it says, but a funny cunt. Big fan of your work.

And I'm like, I love this guy. You're the best, Rory. I love you, Rory. Chris Brown, Kevin Blake, that guy is verified on Twitter and likes us.

I don't know. Is that the horse racing guy? Yeah, that's what, yeah. That, thank you for the suggestion for the boxer that you put up. We are going to be doing him very soon, actually.

He's great. Kevin Blake, thank you. And congratulations on being verified. Rocky Newton, Vasconi, and Big Jeff in New York City, and Amy Keller. As always. It was a great week. That was so much fun. Thank you guys so much for listening.

Really, guys, we say it every week. We still don't have a network yet. We're still working on that. We have a sponsor now. We don't working on that. We have a sponsor now. We don't have a network. We're working on it. We're trying to, but you guys have spread this

and you guys are doing an incredible job. Like I said, our listenership this week, we're blown away by it. It's going up every week and it's thanks to you guys. It's not us. We don't know anybody.

We don't know a lot of people that go listen to our shit. We don't have a big network that we can put things out through. We are two idiot comics that go write stacks of note cards and try our best to give you a good story. So thank you guys. We do have you guys. Like a wrestler tweeted that he didn't know, or he tweeted about Johnny K.

And then Donnie Wentzel tweeted back to him and told him to listen to our podcast. It's things like that that expand us. Tell your friends. Crime and sports movement. It's you guys. We really appreciate it. Next week we have another scumbag coming to you. Jimmy, you want to give them your social media? Yeah. Atwismansucks. W-H-I-S-M-A-N sucks on Twitter, Instagram

and that bullshit Snapchat. And I am atjimmyp is funny if you want to find me on there. You can find me. My last name is hard to spell. Find me on Facebook through the podcast, but guys, we cannot wait to see you next week. And we are going to see you next week with another guy, just as terrible or lady.

You never know. Just as awful, just as bad. And we're going to have, we're not sexist. Ladies can commit crimes. See Sally, Sally McNeil.

Love, love. What is it? Love steroids and pistol grip shotgun. Go episode eight. go check it out dudes what's up it's your boy Ross Tucker former NFL offensive lineman

I got the Ross Tucker football podcast and I got your bet online and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. Taylor Swift is soaring high, her every move captured in the news cycle and devoured by her devoted fans. She's broken billboard records and made Grammys history, not to mention becoming a billionaire in the process. But along the way, Taylor has had to wage war, first by taking on a very powerful, very famous manager, Scooter Braun, and then by going up against the biggest

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