Crime in Sports - #431 - Vigo The Carpathian - Wilhelm Von Homburg (Norbert Grupe)

Episode Date: October 22, 2024

This week, we look at a man, who was born to an actual Nazi, during WWII. He starts his adult life out with a most horrific crime, that can't be explained. He teams with his father to form a wrestling tag team, and was also a pretty decent pro boxer. His real fame came from movies like "Die Hard", and as Vigo The Carpathian in "Ghostbusters 2"! He's such a bad guy, that he's unable to capitalize on the fame!Come from Nazi roots, make sure not to know if your sister is really your sister... or, your daughter, and be drug addicted pimp, who goes on to take sarcastic barbs from Bill Murray with Wilhelm Von Homburg!!Check us out, every Tuesday!We will continue to bring you the biggest idiots in sports history!! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman Donate at... patreon.com/crimeinsports or with paypal.com using our email: [e-mail] Get all the CIS & STM merch at crimeinsports.threadless.com Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things CIS & STM!!  Contact us on... twitter.com/crimeinsports [e-mail] facebook.com/Crimeinsports instagram.com/smalltownmurderSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Crime and Sports early and ad free on Amazon Music. Download the app today. From Wondery comes a new series about a lawyer who broke all the rules. Need to launder some money? Broker a deal with a drug cartel? Take out a witness? Paul can do it. I'm your host, Brandon James Jenkins.

Follow Criminal Attorney on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. In the upcoming episode of Killer Psyche, we will be diving deep into the unfolding case of accused Gilgo Beach serial killer, Rex Heuerman. Follow Killer Psyche wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Killer Psyche and more Exhibit C true crime shows early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Hello everybody and welcome back to Crime in Sports. Yay! Yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petragallo.

I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us today because we have a wild story for you today. A very interesting story. A guy that I didn't even know was an athlete or knew anything about him until about three weeks ago or a month ago when I was reading a book about the making of Ghostbusters and found out about this guy. We'll get into all of it but it's the guy from the Ghostbusters 2 painting. The Vigo the Carpathian? That's the guy. Okay, yeah. You've never heard of him but everybody knows Vigo the Carpathian? Yeah. That's the guy. Okay. Yeah. You've never heard of him,

but everybody knows Vigo the Carpathian and uh, there it is. Ghostbusters 2. So we'll, we'll get into that. We'll get into all of that. But before we do definitely head over to shut up and give me murder.com. Get your merchandise, get your tickets for live shows, tickets for the virtual live show October the 30th that goes on but if you're hearing this later than that it's alright because you can buy it watch it do whatever you want with it for two weeks after we do it so can't wait just like a regular small-town murder live show the pictures the comedy the story

but we're gonna wear costumes and you can watch it from anywhere in the world that you want that has an internet connection. So we can't wait to do that. Shut up and give me murder.com. Also get Patreon, Patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all of your bonus material and anybody $5 a month or above you get hundreds of back episodes of crime and sports, the small town murder, and you get new ones every other week. It's not bad for five bucks a month. You can't beat it. It's a cup of coffee this week, which you're going to get. For crime and sports, we're

going to talk about, we got to talk about that Vince McMahon documentary. We're going to talk about some of the accusations and we're not going to go over all the wrestling stuff because we've gone over it a million times and that's a whole separate thing. So we'll go over the accusations and we're going to go over just some of the ridiculous, because there's some dumb people on that documentary and we'll talk about them. We're going to talk about brain damage as a motherfucker. So we'll get into that for small town murder. We are going to talk about, we got to finish up the Ted Bundy psychological assessment from 1976 because

it's so vast. We couldn't get into the whole thing. So we got to talk more about the pictures and his interpretations of them. And he's nuts. Just spoiler alert. Will she get into all that though patreon.com Slash crime in sports is where all that rest that said let's do this everybody our asshole of the week here His name is Norbert Norbert Norbert group a Norbert Norbert Norbert Group A G R U P E. That's his real name. He goes by his stage name for everything is Wilhelm von Hamburg though. Okay. But he's Norbert Group A now Norbert's born August 25th 1940 in Berlin Germany. Hell yeah.

So think about, not hell yeah, hell no. Think about when and where. That's what I mean. Hell yeah, he's a Nazi. That's not good. It's not good. You don't wanna be born there. And his dad was in all the army and all that kind of shit.

It's not, it's. He was born during shelling. Yeah, yeah, he's born shit. This is before America got into the war. This is when Hitler was really aggressive in 1940. That was 39 was when he was invading Poland and all that. It's a lot. So that's where he's born.

He's a big guy, six foot one, imposing guy. He'll end up being a professional boxer and wrestler, as we'll talk about here. His dad's name is Richard Groupet, so Dick Group, Dick Groupie basically. His mother is not Richard's wife. It's one of Richard's many girlfriends. Is that right? Yeah, much like him, his father is just always out trying to get pussy. So this is not his wife, so he's kind of just like an illegitimate child that he'd

fantastic. Then the father just brings to be raised by the by his wife here raise my son I had with somebody else so you can imagine what his you know life is like he's got a half brother named Winfred and then he has a we'll get into it what he is later but it could either be his half sister or his daughter Rona oh boy we'll talk about that yeah we have a definite uh resolution Rona. We'll talk about that. Yeah, we have a definite resolution of it and we'll talk about that. So let's start out with his dad. Now, his dad is you need to know about him. His dad goes by King Richard always. Everybody calls him. He was

born in 1915 during the first. So his dad was born during the first world war and he's born during the second world war. he's born during the second world war Keeping it keeping it real consistent in this family. Yeah, no shit. His father was a cop So he's a son of a cop he would eat two pounds of raw bacon at a time his father not him Oh, yeah, he just that was a meal two pounds of raw bacon raw raw That's an odd choice. I mean, you could ball it up and eat it faster probably, but doesn't sound good.

Yeah, that's what I mean. It just hunks a prosciutto, put it on a big sandwich with some mozzarella. Maybe it's good, I don't know. Also, he was such an alcoholic that Richard said that he could smell his dad before he got to the front door What could smell his dad coming up the steps the booze would come could smell through the door That's how boozy he was permeates brick

He said quote I can smell that Papa is home He would tell his mother and then he would walk in the door and his father would Drink so much that he would shit his pants in the house and young Richard would have to wash the shit off his fucking drunken father while his father just eats handfuls of raw bacon. That's the most disgusting. Imagine laying on the floor shit faced with shit in your pants and raw handfuls of bacon in your hand.

That's the grossest thing I can think of. Oh, God. Richard told a reporter later on, quote, when he drank in schnapps and beer, we could swim in that. Apparently. When his mother couldn't take anymore, she left and was replaced by a stepmother who, Richard said, was brutally, brutally cruel to him. Terrible. He said, brutally, brutally cruel to him. Terrible.

He said, quote, just a shitty childhood. Literally and figuratively, apparently. Right, yeah. Pops did that. Wow. Here's an article from later on about Richard. This is from 1974, and he was a Luftwaffe sergeant, okay, which is the German Air Force. Yeah, he was under Gering, for Christ's sake, this guy.

So yeah, there's a picture of him here with his uniform on and everything. And it says, King Richard the Reluctant Dragon is the name of the article. And he is, they said he's a, they have a picture and the credit from the picture is Screen Actors Guild. So his father's acting too. And it says, to the residents

of Venice Beach, Richard Grupe is a popular and gregarious local figure. Yeah, most Nazis are known for their gregariousness. Very outgoing. Oh, Christ. The health-conscious athlete, who looks considerably younger than his 59 years, is seen each morning soon after the sunrise running on the beach with his three German Shepherds. Along the city's narrow streets, his friendly voice and easy laughter are often heard. His friends at an open air sports club on the Venice Boardwalk like to call him King Richard.

Though he doesn't take his nickname too seriously, he does look the part. A former boxing champion in his name native Germany, Group A stands 6'3 and weighs 227 pounds. Given the appearance of a burly Viking warrior replete with blue eyes, blonde hair, long blonde hair and a full long blonde beard, to learn how a man born by the cold North Sea came to settle by the warm Pacific, I recently spent a day with by the cold North Sea came to settle by the warm Pacific, I recently spent a day with Gruppe, recording our conversation at a beachside park. As I questioned him about his life in Germany, his role in World War II, and his immigration

to America, Gruppe emerged as a quick, affable man who has led an extremely varied and eventful life. Though he speaks an accented and unorthodox version of self-taught English. Unorthodox? Doesn't speak English well? Richard describes his adventures with clarity and humor. In speaking of his father, who was a policeman, Group A said warmly, what he drank in shops and beer, we could swim in that, you and me. So, a lot.

He was drunk four times a week. My stepmother called the police station with an excuse for sickness. When she forgot, a guy came from the station and checked what happened to him. He sees my father snoring and says, what's with Richard? Is he half dead again? They knew he drank, but he was a very good hearted guy. He had a heart from gold. He said, when my father came home, he'd eat one and a half two pounds of bacon with mustard raw bacon with mustard That's some German shit right there. Just give me mustard covered pork

handfuls of it Wow when I would think of that on that time today, I would be sick. I would pass out I would have kidney and gall troubles man, he says group a Richard here, our guy's father, says that his diet consists mainly of health foods. So he doesn't get that. He abstains from alcohol and tobacco and consumes only the right stuff, which is nothing like his son who will consume all sorts of shit. Richard's first job as a baking apprentice began in 1930 when he was 15 years old. After two years of training paid for by his father, he started earning five and a half dollars weekly, which was a lot of money back then.

That's a lot. Over the years, he entered numerous other professions as a county policeman, boxer, Luftwaffe staff sergeant, restauranteur, wrestler, sports instructor, oil refinery worker and actor. Wow. At one point when Richard was still in his teens, he was nearly forced to embark on a career which he had no desire to pursue. The SS. Yeah, Hitler's elite security police. He gave a rough translation of the dialogue that passed between him and four black uniformed SS officers 40 years ago. These fucking cunts. These are the assholes

that were in a brutal, a brutesy that had, that were murdered all the families and had my fucking grandparents hiding in the ground and shit. Quote, they stopped me on the street to be an SS man, but I got away with my blue eyes. Four guys stood up in the car and opened Mercedes. They said, Hey, come here. And I said, What do you mean, come here? They yelled, Come here. And I go, Oh, like a snake. I go and they say, What's your name? And I say to the devil, what's that to you, bastards? Okay. But at that time, he said I was shaking. The SS men and men demanded to know his name, height, birthplace, and

place of work when they tried to recruit him. He recalled, quote, then they say, when you come to our meetings, I say I have no idea to go. Nobody tell me about it. I have no idea to go to some meetings where nobody like me may be. We like you, they say. You come to us, you be one of us. I say yes and I go home and tell my boss." Group A's employer eventually managed to persuade the local SS chief to not take Richard from his bakery work into the SS. You don't understand. He makes a hell of a tart. His loafs are wild, dude. I mean, you getting married soon? He's gonna make you a three tier

that will blow your fucking mind. Let me tell you something. We'll put a little blonde haired, blue eyed Aryan on top. It'll be fantastic. He's gonna love it. Custard filling, custard. You know how that works. Maybe, I can do blackberry, it's fine.

Whatever you want. I'm up for it. He said today, Group A is still grateful for his employer's intervention. Ironically, it was another SS man who led Richard to his boxing career by asking him if he knew how to box. He did not, and the soldier tried to show him. Group A's first punch, a hard right, knocked the soldier out. Wow! He soon began regular training and had eight amateur fights before his 19th birthday in 1934. Gruppe remarked that the soldier, like many of his jobless peers, had joined the SS because they got

food and meetings and everything. So that was more of a gimmick. Everybody accepted him. Other guys were all out work and they were more communist than Nazis. They wouldn't have done anything, they wouldn't have anything to do with Hitler, but they couldn't open their mouths or he'd put them in jail. Right. Yeah. Not like you could be like, hey, fuck Hitler, man. Like, you know, it didn't really go well. When I asked group A to comment further on the extent of Hitler's popularity with the German public after his rise to power in 1933, he was understandably reticent. I tell tell you I was 18. What do you want to know from me?'

he asked. "'I was 18. Ask some 18-year-old kid here what he thinks of Truman.'" At the time, you know what I mean? His tone became empathetic as he continued. "'I was never a Nazi. I joined the party. I was not a Partei P-E-I. I was not a hit or the part a P It's te I at the end. I was not in the Hitler youth. I was a pastry man who worked day and night. I

Just made pastries, dude. I didn't do anything Yeah, I put little swastikas on them, but that's fine They all have little fucking swastikas drawn in them, but you know That's the Iron Eagles on top of these things. It was what you did back then. You know, it was, it was the day I've put Jesse James West coast choppers logo on some cupcakes delicious. You're going to love it. While still 18 group a was offered a four year contract as Baker and cook on a charter

boat leaving the far touring the far East. He was eager to leave depression ridden Germany and to travel, but his father persuaded him to be a policeman instead Richard joined the County Police Force and soon discovered it to be quote Hitler's phony police name for soldier training Right. Yeah, the County Police Organization was used to sidestep the limitations placed on the size of German Germany's armed forces by the Treaty of Versailles after World War one It was just a, you know. Yeah, to wait to backdoor it. Yeah, he was backdooring it.

He was trying to get between the lines here. Well, I mean, when you're gonna commit a genocide of six million people, it's not gonna be easy. No. The world's probably not gonna like that. You're gonna need a lot of people. Yeah, you're gonna need a lot of people and you need a lot of people

that don't know what the fuck they're doing. Well, that was one of the things the Germans were so pissed off about was the Treaty of Versailles that they had doing. Well, that was one of the things that Germans were so pissed off about was the Treaty of Versailles that they had to sign because they tried to take over the fucking world 25 years earlier. You know what I mean? 20 years before this they're talking about.

That's kind of your what you get. So when rearmament was no longer being concealed, the men were given the choice to either enter the army, navy or air force, group H chose the latter. He said, the training was so hard for me I could have died. I was not coordinated enough, my body was not together. My hands were big and my heart was small. I was skinny and white. He said that he was pitted against a 26 year old,

19, he was pitted against a 26 year old heavyweight boxing champion of North Germany in an exhibition for the big shots He says and he admitted during the fight. He was afraid But he said in spite of his fear group a won a bloody victory over the opponent He recalled after the match quote the officers came to me and said group a you were great And you know what you wouldn't believe the guy never in his life forgot me that. He never forgave me that. He never forgave me.

Graduating the county police force into the Luftwaffe, Gruppe continued boxing successfully while he rose through the ranks of the military, becoming a drill instructor and later a boxing instructor in Berlin. He recalled winning the 1938 heavyweight boxing championship of the Army, Navy and Air Force with a blend of pride and modesty. He said, I was down and then I came up and knocked the guy out and that was a good guy. He fought against the winner of the Olympics in a draw. So he was a good guy, strong like a tank.

So I was lucky. I catch him with a right hand the same way. The same way I knocked out the SS soldier years before. That was the same right. The guy came to me, I knock him out. Bing, I break my thumb in this championship so I get 14 days vacation for winning. Again after the match he was officially congratulated. This time he was standing naked in the dressing room when a general entered.

That's what you want. You have no clothes. He has the most clothes, jackets and medals and shit and hats and badges and everything. Yeah. You can imagine keys probably dangling down. He was loud coming into that room. Oh God, all sorts of shit. Squeaky shoes. He said that, yeah, he said you were great. The officer, the general walks in the room and said the general of the field said to me, officer group A in the name of Marshall Herman Goering, I congratulate you. You were great.

Then a quarter year later, group A said proudly, I make sergeant. So a brief stint as a swimming instructor brought him closest to the quote, biggest accident of my life. He said one of his pupils was the son of a big shot police official. The boy looked like a chicken. Richard said flatly, you have none of the man in you. I said to him, I teach you. You have none of the man in you.

The scaly legs and those claws. Oh God, you're a lizard. I'm going to teach you. Richard put the boy on his shoulders and leaped off a high tower underwater the boy became tangled in the wooden cross beams of a pier and had to be rescued when the He almost killed a kid is what he just said Cuz he's not a man. He did get no man in he did some seriously irresponsible shit and almost killed a boy That's what he's telling us now

Holy shit underwater. He came tangled all up when the boy was revived Richard had changed's telling us now. Holy shit. Underwater he came tangled all up. When the boy was revived, Richard had changed his mind about trying to toughen youngsters. I say, what do I care what this chicken does? I want to make this boy into a man for what? To make him tough for the army so he can get shot later on? They could put me in jail for life for that thing. So early in the war, Richard was married for the first of three times. She was a very nice girl he said warmly. In her way she was bright. In her way she was bright. Little dumb is what that means. In her way she was

bright. In her own way. Yeah so. What about Crayola? If I ask you about a comic and I go is he funny and you go in his own way. What does that mean? Not really. Really nice guy. Nice guy, not really. Don't want to be mean, but can't do shit. Fun hang. Fun hang.

Good guy. Great guy. Yeah. He said, she was a nice girl. In her own way, she was bright. She wrote little articles and sent them to a newspaper. But you don't have to be intelligent to do that, you know. I laughed with him as a writer of little articles for a newspaper, I had to agree.

I don't want to make you down as a writer, Group A told me with concern. Don't get me wrong," he said, but you don't have to be too intelligent to do that, especially rhymes. And she made rhymes very nice, a little bit with the war connected. She made war poems? War Dr. Seuss. War limericks, that's nice. She made war poems? She's a war doctor suits. War limericks, that's nice. I wonder if the lady from Nantucket's involved in any of those.

Or how many red fish and blue fish. Yeah. I wonder how often the war is compared to roses and violets. Or eggs. Yeah. He then goes on, she was not stupid, not too intelligent, I think. So he keeps saying how she's pretty dumb. She likes cats that wear hats.

She makes hats for cats. One of Group A's early commanding officers was none too fond of his penchant for athletics. He said, I had a beautiful life. I did nothing useful in the morning, all the time in in my training suit and the commander, he hate me. He didn't do any military shit. He's just there to train. He hate me. He's the original. He hate me. So he put it on the back of his Nazi Jersey. His Luflaffa tag said he hate me. He had lost the officer who wore a monocle and had lost an arm in an old sailing ship He's the guy from young Frankenstein

That's who that is. It's the fucking police officer from young Frankenstein monocle fucking wooden arm. No deal I see I see Colonel clink missing. No, that's what it's totally the guy from Frankenstein That sets his finger on fire to light a cigarette He's got a wooden arm He said who had lost an arm during an old in an old sailing ship group a laughingly recalled quote He celebrated Kaiser Wilhelm's birthday every year. He was against Hitler He was more for the old realm there World War one era in 1942 group a was transferred to the prestigious

Hermann Göring division of the Luftwaffe. He said, I came into the regiment late, when the Russians were close to Germany. That's close to the end there. I come in the regiment very sneaky because I don't want to go to Russia. He's not, who's going to Russia? He's leaning down low, tying his shoes so nobody sees his head. Not me. Living in near luxury with his second wife, he was serving as a guard at the Hamburg airport for the Red Cross and making lots of money besides that. He's like, I don't want to go to fucking Russia

and die in a field somewhere. I think it's probably the best job in the military at the moment. Fuck yeah. His athletic prowess made him a celebrity in the German press, and for a time, he said it was a beautiful life That's kind of why I'm giving you this background on his dad because you go what who cares about his dad But it's to show where this guy came from is very important

Yeah, I think during a really terrible time in Germany. He was living comfortably even though I mean, it's not good But he's making money and he's got food. He's one of the more comfortable people in Germany, is what that is. So they said his popularity was not unanimous. A certain general received an anonymous letter that threatened Richard's charmed existence. Written by some phony who hates me, he insisted. The letter asked why Group A should live the high life at home while others were being wounded and killed in combat. At this point in the war, when hundreds of thousands of German soldiers were dying

In Russia because Hitler refused to allow retreat An order to go to the Russian front meant almost certain death and a bad death. So rich Life's not fair. That's why he can do this because sometimes people live well and they don't deserve it and other people die young and they don't Just yeah, that's fucking welcome. It's a there's a lot a lot of rolling of the dice here, you know what I mean? With life. He said that, um, Richard said in a grim tone, my commander said, we have to send you to Russia. I said, Oh God, quote, so I must go out from civilization. He went on out, out from this beautiful life in the middle of the war away from my second wife every day She hung a washcloth on the window to let me know when my lunch was ready with a nice bouquet of flowers

Windows open sunshine. I eat then we make love then I go back to work at the airport That's a that's his lunch break day. Every day's got a noon lunch is ready here. I eat Fucking bang my wife and then back to the airport. Yep, he said, I lived before in civilization and now I go into the war. Bingo. He said at first Richard was one of the first to be one of 1500 soldiers being sent to Russia from Hamburg. Then all of a sudden they call the whole action off, he said incredulously. They keep only six guys and one staff sergeant. That's me. They send us out to Russia and

leave them in Germany because of this letter they sent me out, somebody's letter. In Berlin, their first stop, one man was added to the unit. Under Group A's leadership, they did everything in their power to delay their arrival on the front. Oh, we gotta tires flat. We really should mess with it up the car broke down. Yeah this guy We've all not okay. We've all had places. We didn't want to go so we take longer to get there None of them were the Russian front To die in the cold holy shit. The worst part of the war was the under under estimation of the Russian winter and how fucking brutal it is. And they're at this point in the war where Hitler's already doing meth and has

gone fucking crazy. So there's no, there's no talking to him, but every soldier from the bottom soldier to the generals all know that Russia isn't working and isn't gonna work No, but they just keep not gonna win. They can't tell Hitler that he won't listen So that day that Hitler once he gets a thought in his head boy You can't get it out. Tell you what like a dog with a bone that Hitler when he gets a hold of something He's convinced he's convinced. You to just stick with him. That's it. For good or bad. He said, quote, I told them to salute everybody, even the pimps. Just stop and salute because it'll take longer. He said, I told them, don't make any noise, don't drink, don't sing and we'll stay in a hotel for a week. Let's we'll just

hide out. Group A's wife joined him at the hotel to quote live it up Yeah, he's banging out there too after four days. He said I got I got scared They may be shoot me for desertion to conceal the time they spent hiding group a changed the dates on their traveling waters quote like an artist he said He fucking he doctored his time card this guy would have been a great like factory worker He figured out how to shit on the job He also forged new requisition orders for food and money then he related he related I go to the commander I say I miss we missed the train. I lied once aboard the train

He continued I go to the conductor and give him a pound of butter and a salami and say make us room where we can sleep butter and salami will do it. Day after day town after town the process was repeated dates were changed requisitions were forged rooms were rented while the eight men tried as group a put it to keep us back from the front each time I am making a story no money no food miss the train just making shit up. Hope he's a coward. This is great. The right kind of coward though smart coward. He realizes he probably sees that the writing's on the wall we're gonna lose you guys we shouldn't

go there. Especially in Russia you're just dying they're just shoveling bodies onto the fire in Russia so he's like this is stupid. If we don't go and we just trade salami and butter, we can have a pretty decent life until this ends. We'll keep forging shit to get salami and butter and then we'll fry people with salami and butter. It's the perfect crime.

He said, I did the talking making a salute to every little pimp so that we don't get in trouble. And so the people say they have beautiful soldiers in the Air Force. Yeah. The reluctant soldiers had a long and eventful journey. The train went so slow, long, full of soldiers said Group A. It had to stop for the night and the fire has to go out because of the bombs. So no one can see when they're bombing.

They fell down like they threw them out with a shovel. Two here, two there, two here, just to keep the people awake, take the power away from the army. Crossing Poland, he recalled, the people looked out the windows and jumped on the train to buy food. We changed our sausage for booze with them. I got sausage, I got booze. It's a good trade.

Near the front, the men saw dead horses, dead bodies bodies and we can hear the fire and the booming of the front and we can see the heavens, on the heavens the tracers shooting at the airplanes. It was loud and nervous that place. In the Pacific Ocean, halfway between Peru and New Zealand, lies a tiny volcanic island. It's a little known British territory called Pitcairn and it harboured a deep dark scandal. There wouldn't be a girl on Pitcairn once they reach the age of 10 that would still emerge. It just happens to all of us. I'm journalist Luke Jones and for almost two years I've been investigating a shocking story that has left deep scars on generations of women and girls from Pitcairn. When there's nobody watching, nobody going to report it, people will get away with what

they can get away with. In the Pitcairn Trials I'll be uncovering a story of abuse and the fight for justice that has brought a unique, lonely Pacific island to the brink of extinction. Listen to the Pitcairn Trials exclusively on Wondery+. Join Wondery+, in the Wondery app, Apple podcasts, or Spotify. In a quiet suburb, a community is shattered by the death of a beloved wife and mother. But this tragic loss of life quickly turns

into something even darker. Her husband had tried to hire a hitman on the dark web to kill her, and she wasn't the only target. Because buried in the depths of the internet is The Kill List, a cache of chilling documents containing names, photos, addresses, and specific instructions for people's murders. This podcast is the true story of how I ended up in a race against time to warn those who

lives were in danger. And it turns out convincing a total stranger someone wants them dead is not easy. Follow Kill List on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Kill List and more Exhibit C Truecrime shows like Morbid early and ad free right now by joining Wondry+. listen to Kill List and more Exhibit C True Crime shows like morbid, early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Check out Exhibit C in the Wondery app for all your True Crime listening. Oof, leaving the train the 8 men hooked a large sled behind a truck and rode over to

the frozen Russian landscape 30 miles deeper into the front. That's going to be a comfortable ride on a big sled for 30 miles. That night the commander of the infantry regiment asked to speak with Group A. We talked about Homburg and his family and he had tears in his eyes, Richard said, and continued in a tone near anger. And then I took off. He made me weak with that. He was not a tough guy. The following morning... They're killing the horses. Who knew that?

Oh, they kill killing the horses who knew that oh, they could yeah, they kill everything The horses also were dying from having no food and no and getting shot and having the elements to Russian winter The following morning after 14 days on the road group a and his men reached the final outpost on the very forward lines of The front before reporting for duty group a stopped in a small makeshift barbershop He spoke very excitedly of the exchange that took place inside. I come in the door, you don't believe this, and the guy in the chair says, hey, I know you, I saw you fight in Berlin against Herbert Rung. The soldier in the chair, Corporal Esser, had seen Group A fight Rundge four years before.

I lost by points to Rundge in Deutschland and Deutschland Hall in 1938 runge was the winner of the Nazi Olympics that sounds like a fucking that sounds like something that would take place on fucking certain websites the Nazi Olympics Jesus in favor as a favor to group a corporal Esser said to him give me paper, I'll send you back to Germany. He had the power to do it, he's like, I like you, you're a boxer. As the soldier signed the reprieve, Gruppe was in a state of ecstatic collapse.

What I spent on nerves, he sent me back. Gruppe and his men left the front immediately, but were stopped short by an old captain, Richard recalls. He say, how long you been here? I say, we're just here shortly. We go back by command for new training for special guns and tanks. He say, everyone who has not a year here cannot come out unless you have a receipt. Do you have one?

Yes. I gave him my old receipt. He was tired? And he say, Corporal Esser signed it? Okay. Group A spoke with a delighted tone. From here we get the package from Hitler that was given to everyone that was here in Russia for one year.

A big package of food. Wow. With people coming out. I want to push my luck too hard. Maybe then it was different. The men who took 14 days getting to the front managed to get home 14 times faster. Yeah, they got home in a fucking day. He said, The same day we saw Esser,

we were back all the way. In Berlin, I call my wife that I'm home again. Unbelievable. It took two weeks to get there, a day to get back. That's amazing. He went to, after a brief visit with his wife, Group A went to Buchenwald, which is a fucking concentration camp.

Yeah, yeah. Or it's in the town, but there is one there, is one there where the Herman garing division was regrouping a chance existed that he might be sent back to Russia But again, he met a soldier who knew of his boxing fame and arranged a tramp to transfer rupee to Holland Yeah, I don't want to go to Russia under no circumstances. He said Empathically, I want to go to the West if I'm taken prisoner, I'll go to the English or the Americans.'" I asked him if he had known at the time that he was stationed at Buchenwald that it was the site of a major concentration camp. He said, "'We never know before. We never know before. When we were there in 42, there were only

barracks, nothing to see, any concentration camp. We couldn't tell. It was nothing, just barracks.' Earlier see any concentration camp we couldn't tell it was nothing just barracks earlier he had said I have no much luck with the Jewish people I have never hated them never hated them I'm very sorry for what Hitler did to the Jewish people he said he spent most of the rest of the war in Holland where he was put in charge of 600 men and housed in barracks he said they left everything to me and I was going crazy. My head blows up. And so yeah, he ended up getting transferred. My mind is blown. My head blows up. My head blows up. Within four years after the war, Group A and his second wife owned a prosperous pastry shop, restaurant and bar.

Hell yeah. When a candy salesman entered the shop one morning in 1949, Group A recognized him as his former general from the Hermann Göring division. In a compassionate tone, he said, What a comeback! Me as a staff sergeant having my own shop and he as a general selling candy bars. He has suffered enough. Some years later, him and his wife were divorced. He gave the shop to her.

He was later remarried. And they talk about that. So he began touring Europe as a professional wrestler in 1954. He said to be a good wrestler, you have to be a good actor. And he stated that many matches are fixed and the two fighters and their and their reunites meet beforehand to discuss battle tactics, decide who will win, and plan how to make it look real. He said, the people should know, it's the truth. So he's like outing wrestling here, going, it's all fake. 74, he came to New York in 1960

with a one-year wrestling contract, which included several fights at Madison Square Garden. And that is for Vince McMahon, senior, Vince's dad. Yes, he worked for Vince's dad several times during the 60s. Well, him and his partner, yeah, he had a partner back then. So yeah, this is pre Bruno San Martino being there.

This is pre Buddy Rogers. This is pre them being really their own thing and breaking away from the NWA and all that, which happened in like 62. He had an actual Nazi working for him, wow. Oh, back then, the Nazi character, there was a million of them in wrestling. Yeah.

Guys would come out in a fucking SS outfit, goose steppin' around the ring, everybody booed them. God damn it. Yeah, for real, the von Erich's father did that, that was his schtick. Yeah, Fritz von Erichs. So anyway, they said having appeared in various television and film productions in Germany and elsewhere in Europe, Group A found acting work in America. He appeared in magazine advertisements for cigarettes and television commercials for

automobiles, food products, beer and cigars. Joining the Screen Actors Guild, he moved to Hollywood to work as an extra and bit player often portraying such rugged characters as pirates sea captains and Vikings and that's what they're gonna be too. Later on him and Richard are gonna be a tag team known as the Vikings. Him and or him and Norbert there him and his son are gonna be tag team. Yeah so in the film in the 20th century Fox film young Frankenstein He was cast aptly enough as a German townsman in the Walt Disney production Of the island at the top of the world

He appears as a Viking as Viking council number three group a remarked I only to shake my head I had nothing to say on the street. They say you look like a Viking walk. Walk in. You need no makeup." He had no speaking lines. He just, just be on camera, tall and menacing. They talk about, talking about wrestling and he said that he had over 120 wrestling matches. Uh huh. And a better IMDB page than me. Yeah, decent one. Group A speaks of his past with candor and fondness, but he seems to be a man who lives vigorously in the present. He enjoys a man who they talk about. He likes people, encourages them to laugh or at least smile.

And as he and I sat talking near Venice Beach, he turned to a young lady passing by and spoke in a warm, easygoing way. Quote, you don't have to sit down and say hello, just smile. He's the original asshole. He's the original asshole telling girls walking by to smile. It's a problem. Why don't you put a smile on that frowny ass face? Well, nothing's more charming and smiley

than a heavy Nazi German accent, too. Nothing sounds more fucking whimsical than that. Encouraging. You don't have to sit down, you smile. You're like, ah, Jesus Christ. You'd be terrified. She smiled. But you smile more, honey. And she did. Back then they would. She would, okay. She's probably like, okay, don't beat me please. She smiled.

It's an awkward smile, but it's a smile. I got something. And became one of the many ladies of Venice Beach who are quickly charmed by the man whose friends like to call him King Richard. Now, okay, when Rona, the daughter slash our guy Norbert, or we're going to just go with Wilhelm because he'll be Wilhelm von Homburg pretty soon anyway. So Richard's son here, our guy Wilhelm, his sister slash daughter, unsure of, he was a young, she was a young girl, Richard would tell her all about his own childhood. And she said, I would sit at the end of his bed and listen to all these

stories. And it was incredible. I've kept it to myself all these years. She said that she'd been told that, listen, you might not just be Norbert's half-sister, meaning Wilhelm, you might be his daughter as well. Okay. Now this is a fucking problem. This is 1959. Our guy Wilhelm is about 19, 18, 19 at this point. He apparently was always fighting with his dad. And.

So, a lot of porn stars. And wasn't allowed in the house. So when dad's out of town, Richard's doing something, acting, wrestling, some shit, Norbert slash Wilhelm here climbed up a wall and snuck into a window and raped his stepmother. Raped her? He raped his stepmother. What? Yes. Not, not she came on him and he slept with his stepmother. Not stepmom porn. He raped her. He literally broke

into the house and raped her. Like Ted Bundy or something, like a fucking maniac. What kind of a psychopath does that other than a psychopath? That's crazy. So that's who we're dealing with, our guy. He's 18 years old too. This isn't like a haggard old guy. This is an 18 year old kid who's going, I'll go break into the house and rape my stepmom.

That's the man in charge of the river of slime. That's the man in charge and you can understand why. That's a great man. They got the perfect villain. I'm telling you and as good as, as kind of a guy that everybody likes, his dad's a guy everybody likes. Everybody has good things to say about his dad. No one has a nice thing to say about Wilhelm at all.

Nobody. Is that all. Nobody. Is that right? Nobody. He's a mean, nasty, vicious asshole. He raped his stepmother at 18 years old. He's a sick fuck. So she was told though, Rona, because she was born months later and they didn't know whether it was Richard's or Wilhelm's kid.

So they told Rona, look, that's your brother or maybe your father. We're not sure. And we'll find out later. I'll save it for later. We'll tell you the result of that, whether he has a daughter or a sister. Yeah, because we got DNA. We could tell. We would know.

They take a blood test later on to find out. So that is Fucking disturbing and the disturbing part is even after he rapes his stepmother his stepmother his father still is a tag team wrestler with him They're still a tag team together He probably just does whatever that kid says cuz he's terrifying bad kid man Yeah, so now while he was doing all this I guess According to all of this here one time. This is a another story by the way from about Richard from Rona he was training as a boxer behind the bakery and

According to Rona one day in the train the training room door was left open a crack when Herman Gehring One of the big Nazi people had a Luftwaffe Walked and in charge him and his wife walked by he thought he was he thought he was in charge after Hitler killed himself He was telling everybody well on the guy now Yeah, you know so he did he run to South America before they got it run anywhere. They caught him He was trying to run when they caught him and when he was in, you know kept in the the the jail there the great book the Nazi and the psychiatrist is a

Tremendous book it's about all the guys that were held before Nuremberg But they focus mainly on Goering because he's the most interesting character and a very interesting fucking guy here But yeah, he's uh, he's that guy. So Not now now I guess gering walked in during his wife walked by Mrs. gering here gering peeked through the door and saw Richards boxing skills and he came around front and told the owner of the break bakery to bring out that massive blonde boy yeah Richard came out and gering asked for some bread Richard was scared to death and grabbed

a loaf and handed it to Goering as his wife. Just as the three of them noticed something sitting on top of it. It's a big cockroach. He said they all know it was a cockroach, but Richard also knew what could happen if he sold Herman Goering bad bread. What is that? Asked Goering. Oh, it's just a raisin answered Richard and grabbed back the bread and bit right down on the roach and started chewing

He ate a roach that's a raisin I'll get that for you. Yeah We got one of those accidentally I'll get you a new one, but I'll eat that Don't don't let raisins go to waste around here and garing told him He was impressed with his integrity for doing that. For not selling him a roach bread. He instead ate the roach. Holy fucking shit man. That is god damn disturbing. So he ended up from 46 to 52.

The dad earned a record of 26 wins, 20 by knockouts and 8 losses and 6 draws. So not too bad actually. Pretty decent fighting career and his son is the same way. Here's a painting of his dad blacksmithing. Yeah, oh well. There he is, he looks formidable. Not as good as Vigo, I mean.

Yeah, he was dressed a little better Vigo. Oh my god, that is fucking outstanding. He's blacksmithing. He can do all kinds of shit. No shit. So anyway, he said that men wanted to paint him for some reason all the time. So one was done by Steve Strong Sopayo, an artist and professional wrestler and Richard's best friend for years.

Strong's painting shows a bearded Richard stoking a fire in preparation for shaping metal. It's Richard as a swordsmith. Strong told me I've never known anyone who had a more profound lasting effect on my life. In the 50s that's when he began touring Europe as a wrestler and he actually went on the road with in Italy with Primo Carnara who is the boxer from the 40s. He's a big, giant world heavyweight champion guy who turned wrestler because he's done

boxing. So that's what they did. The two of them traveled in a small fiat with the roof down because they didn't fit in the car. Two giant men with their heads above the fucking windshield. Yup. So this is disturbing. So we're going to start here with Norbert slash

Wilhelm. We'll call Wilhelm. And so he raped his dad's wife. Yep. Grace. I think that's great for you right there. Pre rape would be great actually. But yeah. They said that Wilhelm never spoke to his mother, but as a kid he would go to her home and sit outside on the stairs for hours. And wait to talk to her or see her? Well Rona, this is the sister daughter, said quote, she would peek out the curtain and he would never leave. She couldn't understand, he couldn't understand why his own mother wouldn't talk to him.

She wouldn't talk to him. So he'd go sit on the steps and hope maybe she'd come out and talk to him and she wanted nothing to do with him. Is that a, that's a form of stalking. Yeah but if you're a child and it's your mother it's really it's I think abandoning is the more of a part more of a crime than the stalking probably. Perhaps he knew how she knew how he takes out his rage. Perhaps she felt something you know maybe I don't let that one in. Once you got a taste for rape, it would be a different connotation,

but as like an eight-year-old sitting on your step, that's just sad shit, some sad shit right there. Shit. So Norbert was very envious, Wilhelm, very envious of his brother Winifred, who like, or Winfried, who unlike Norbert, had a real mother in the house, and basically Wilhelm here fought with his dad from a very early age. He was very pissed off at his dad for his illegitimate status

Now Wilhelm wasn't allowed in the family's club where people would come on the weekends in the good clothes to drink and dance This was a place they had a club that they would go to like their own like a social club He's not allowed he was mad at this of not being allowed well maybe because you're a rapist that's why well there's that there's good people in here we don't want them being raped also that's not your real mom and I don't want people to see yeah we hide you anywhere why are what are you doing out of the attic we're ashamed of you so he's he's pissed off so what he did is he shit in a brown paper bag, took a big shit in there and threw it on the sidewalk right in front of the place to disgust them.

So they'd either step in it or smell it or here's a big bag of shit. Wait till he hears about lightening it on fire. Oh, he's gonna think that would have been the best. He never thought of it. Never thought of it. Never thought of it. So he works as a meat packer, a stevedore, so stock guy, dock worker, a butcher, a longshoreman, a waiter, all sorts of different jobs here. Now he rapes his stepmom in 1959 and around 1960

he comes to the US to further his wrestling career and that Richard does so Norbert then follows him to California, Wilhelm does. So by that time he's already a big guy, he's 6'1", he's thick, he's big and he does that. Before he came to the US, Richard, his dad met and married a woman named Ursula and that's who he raped. Okay, so that is Ursula there. So that is goddamn disturbing. Now when I guess Rona ended up being raised by an aunt in Germany before moving to the US because Ursula came, she left and just left the kid behind.

So they live a block off Venice Beach in a small filthy apartment filled with rescued dogs. They had as many as 14 dogs at a time. They said they if they rescued a dog on a Tuesday they'd call it Tuesday. They're coming in and out. Rona said we had because Rona ended up having to go over to America with them so she said we had, because Rona ended up having to go over to America with them. So she said we had two beach towels, a shower with a mop on it and it all the time because we were always wiping off dog pee. Gross. Gross.

Ugh, a piss smell and shitty motel room. Richard taught Rona to eat healthy and exercise made her wake up at four in the morning to run on the beach. And cause that's what what he Richard and Norbert and I'll just call him Wilhelm were doing. She said he was a tree stump. He was my anchor. Rhona said he had so much class and integrity, meaning the dad, not the brother or father, whatever you want here. Her her what she thinks is her dad. So there is an old photo of Richard from Venice Beach next to Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Because he'd hang out and work out and so did Arnold at the time. So he looks just like a fucking Viking. He's got a beard. Here, I'll show him to you. Oh, let's see. That's him. Yeah, no shit. That's his dad, huh?

He's bigger than Arnold, too. No kidding. He's taller. That's why Arnold took steroids to try to get as big as that guy that guy looks like a 60s Professional wrestler he looks like he looks like one of the moon dogs like he's like a big Fucking guy looks like he just can't his hands are fucking enormous. I'm looking at him right now There his his knuckles are so wide like that guy kick your fucking ass man Yeah, wow is he a

scary man so they said Rona said he was so strong he could do a headstand take his arms away and do neck exercises he would flex his neck while standing on his head she said I mean he was massive one handshaker a tap on your back and he'd start seeing stars That artist slash wrestler guy said Richard was respected and revered by the beach community sort of the mayor So they met at the Venice weight pen and soon became friends training together at Gold's gym world's gym and hanging around People like superstar Billy Graham who yeah huge big wrestler I mean He's the guy who fucking he beat Bruno and then back and beat him for the

title. Big fucking guy. The Russian bear Ivan Koloff was another guy who beat Bruno for the title and also Johnny Weissmuller, who was Tarzan and an Olympian to Arnold Schwarzenegger would work there. Rona said Arnold was deathly afraid of Richard. He didn't want anyone around that could upstage him. Never saw a man turn as gray as Arnold when Richard entered the gym.

How about that too, that Arnold was like what he became and he was intimidated by this guy. Yeah, by this guy, because I guess he was just a, he looks like a guy who could just rip a tree out of the ground, Richard. Like he's that kind of strong. And he's got personality. Yeah, oh yeah.

That is frightening. And he's got an accent like his too. So now I'm not the fucking, the weird Austrian German guy. It's this guy now. Richard had a little money outside of a little pension from his time in the army, but he did have some extra cash after paying the $150 rent. If he had extra cash, he'd invite homeless people from the beach to come over for breakfast.

Rescue dogs and beach people he's inviting in. They called him King Richard or Richard the Lionheart and he was beloved in Venice Beach. Wow, that is nice here. Also, the former German soldier who was stationed at Buchenwald could be seen drinking coffee with the old women at the boardwalk near the Jewish Community Center. Hell yeah. Hanging out with the old Jew ladies just fucking chit chatting. Drinking coffee.

Just drinking coffee. So yeah, he did all of that kind of thing. Now for the time that Rona was living with Richard, whose finishing move was just an elbow basically, an elbow smash, shared the apartment with them. Richard was retiring from wrestling, but he would act as a manager for the other guy, the strong guy. Strong said he was acting sergeant at arms. We would hit it off instantly as we looked very much like father and son and shared such physical backgrounds. Now in strong, they said Richard found the son that he couldn't find in Wilhelm.

Oh, shit. It's like, this is my son, not you. You suck. According to Rona, Richard said that Wilhelm, despite both living in LA and even in the same small apartment building for a small time, didn't talk for many years. They think about this. He moved from Germany to an apartment complex in fucking Venice. You can't get farther away from Germany than that. This guy came to the

same complex, but they didn't talk at all or acknowledge each other. That's crazy, right? Am I blown away by that for nothing? is My head explodes James. That's fucking crazy So I guess strong said he had very little interaction with Wilhelm saying that Richard's son tended to hang out with quote an alternative Hollywood crowd and was into the extreme of excess We'll talk about me drugs. He likes drugs. Yeah, he's into that kind of shit The few times they did meet strong said he felt uncomfortable around Wilhelm. He said, when he was in the company of Richard and Rona, I could feel the oxygen sucked out of the room.

He was a fine athlete as well, but with all of us, when the noise of the crowd is no longer part of your life, it's a hard pill to swallow. Some can deal, others can't. So he ended up making up with his dad at some point because they fought his tag team partners called the Vikings and they wore big shiny fucking stupid Viking outfits like You know like they whatever they've like many like yeah. Yeah, like all the Vikings do and wrestling Yeah, typical NFL

Mascot accoutrements, and they wrestled in California at the Los Angeles Coliseum and I believe that's for the LeBell brothers and Vince McMahon Sr. and the LeBell brothers were in business together pretty much. They had a business like a joint thing going on, not that they shared each other's income but they had an arrangement so he ended up wrestling there and at Madison Square Garden and I'm sure littler places here but those guys shared talent. So they were the von Homburg brothers and they were heels basically. That's another thing they do in wrestling that I find hilarious because Johnny Valentine did

this. Johnny Valentine's Greg the Hammer Valentine's father and when Greg came in he didn't say this is my son it was this is my brother. Even though I'm 48 and he's fucking 19, this is my brother. Perfect age distance for me to be his father. It's because our parents really, or I'm just older than I look. Yeah. Cause that ages them down if otherwise, if you have a son, now you're the old man oh his old man people will call you so now you're you're old so anyway they I guess they said he started going he thought group a sounded too much like groupie is what Wilhelm said sure and he knew what the term groupie meant so he started going by Prince Wilhelm von Hamburg which sounded like a bad guy German name you know Fr, Fritz von Erich.

There you go. It also sounds fucking nice. Not bad. He paid $5 for a boxing license under the new name and then he'd use that name forever. He said he would later regret using the name in Hollywood, Wilhelm said. He said, quote, in an industry that was ruled by Jews, it was a really dumb thing to call myself von Hamburg. Who do they think that is? A Nazi nobleman? Because bad idea at that point. And he also, he wore the fucking eagle on his chest in the ring to the ring

and had a monocle on and he did the whole schtick. In a place that he believes is run by Jews. Yes, he did the whole, well in wrestling he did that. He didn't go into an audition like that. That would probably get you thrown out into the street, I would imagine. So. Unless they were casting Hogan's heroes,

he might be kicked. He might be fucked. They're like perfect, just like that. Just go to the set. Don't stop. So he learned how to be a showman in wrestling and project the cocky persona and all that kind of shit And then he switches to boxing in 1962

I guess Richard had been training him in boxing since he was like 10 years old So he had some amateur bouts overseas and then here he is and a hell of a right evidently Hell of a well Richard has a hell of a right hand. So. Hell of a, well, Richard has a hell of a right hand. His dad, yeah. So his dad, maybe he'll. If he taught him. So in 1962, as Nordberg Group A, he was married to Barbara Weigert in Los Angeles. So he married an American lady named Barbara. And six days later, he has his first fight,

his first professional boxing match. He fights Sam Wyatt and He's a guy who was one and one coming into the fight and this is a draw after four rounds So oh and one at this point and he fights he fights Bob Brown Who's oh and three coming in oh and four for his career so we know how that one goes Wilhelm knocks him out in the fur in the second round so he's one oh and one next up This is a week later. He fights Tony Fern, who this is his debut fight and he'll be 0-2 for his career, so you know how that works. Third round knockout here, 2-0.

Next up, Al Cummings, 0-3 coming into the fight, 0-5 for his career. Third round knockout, 3-0 and 1. Next up he fights Freedman Harden. He's 4 and 6 coming in, 7 and 13 for his career. And Wilhelm gets knocked out in the third round. Uh oh. 3-1 and 1. Next up, Irish John Davey, who's 1 and 0 coming into this fight.

This fight goes all 6 rounds and Wilhelm wins by points Okay Here and now this is this he's fighting as a heavyweight these guys are 200 something pounds, okay He's fighting as a heavyweight next up December 18th, so he fought October 25th Then he fights December 14th, then he fights December 18th four days later Days he went six rounds and now he's gonna fight again So he fights cliff gray who's two and eleven coming into this fight two twenty six and two for his career Oh

Way to Wow two and eleven coming in and then it went way worse and then it kept getting bad from there This fight goes all six rounds Wilhelm wins on points. So he's 5-1-1. Next up he fights Roy Smith who goes by Yancy D. Leroy. Okay. He's 20 and 25 coming into this fight and Wilhelm wins on points. It's an eight round fight at the Coliseum in San Diego. He fights him at a rematch. Somehow, I don't know how the hell they even arranged this. This is really strange He fights this guy January 15th 1963 then he fights him again January 22nd 1963 That's a quick rematch. He fought the same guy a week later And they go another eight rounds. Oh my and Wilhelm wins on points again So this guy's like why why'd I do that?

16 rounds for nothing. Yeah. Right. Next up, Bob Bull Mumford in February of 1963. He's one in 10 coming into this, one in 14 for his career. His real talent is making sons who make music. Yes, yes. He has many, many sons and they are very rich. They only play one, one drum. He was the one who instructed them to look like that. Hotshot Australian attorney Nicola Gabba was born into legal royalty, her specialty, representing some of the city's most infamous gangland criminals. However, while Nicola held the underworld's darkest secrets, the most dangerous secret was her own.

She's going to all the major groups within Melbourne's underworld, and she's informing on them all. I'm Marcia Clark, host of the new podcast, Informants Lawyer X. In my long career in criminal justice as a prosecutor and defense attorney, I've seen some crazy cases,

and this one belongs right at the top of the list. She was addicted to the game she had created. She just didn't know how to stop. Now, through dramatic interviews and access, I'll reveal the truth behind one of the world's most shocking legal scandals. Listen to Informants Lawyer X exclusively on Wondry+. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify and listen to more Exhibit C True Crime Shows early and ad free right now.

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dark to manipulative scammers preying on the insecurities of regular people. Wondry's Exhibit C is your partner in crime. Listen to the best of True Crime by following Exhibit C on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to hit true crime shows like Kill List and Killer Psyche early and ad free right now by joining Wandery Plus. In November 1991, media tycoon Robert Maxwell mysteriously vanished from his luxury yacht in the Canary Islands. But it wasn't just his body that would come to the surface in the days that followed. It soon emerged that Robert's business was on the brink of collapse, and behind his facade of wealth and success was a litany of bad investments,

mounting debt, and multi-million dollar fraud. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show Business Movers. We tell the true stories of business leaders who risked it all, the critical moments that defined their journey, and the ideas that transformed the way we live our lives. In our latest series, a young refugee fleeing the Nazis arrives in Britain determined to make something of his life. Taking the name Robert Maxwell, he builds a publishing and newspaper empire that spans the globe. But ambition eventually curdles into desperation and Robert's determination to succeed

turns into a willingness to do anything to get ahead. Follow Business Movers wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondry app. So that makes Wilhelm eight one and one after he knocks out Mumford Dad. Next up he fights Cliff Gray again for some reason. TKO in the first round, nine one and one. Next up he fights Indian Gus Caffrobe. Yeah.

Yeah. His last name is Caffrobe, like a robe for a small fucking cow. So Gus Caffrobe here. He is 5-3 coming into this fight, 6-4 for his career. This is at the Moulin Rouge in Hollywood. Oh, is that right? Yep. It's't real thing

That's a real place calf robe was knocked down twice in the sixth round and finally KO'd there So that was that 10 1 and 1 for Wilhelm next up Pete Gonzalez Who doesn't have a nickname because he doesn't need one. He's Owen to coming in Owen three for his whole career. So there you go He was knocked down four times in three rounds and finally knocked out. Now next up, May 20th, 63, Bobby Sands, who's for some reason, his alias is Bobby Sand. He just takes the S off.

Sandman. Sandman here. His real name Weldon Townsend. So nothing to do with that. Is that right? Yeah, Weldon. He's 11, 10 and two coming into this fight fight and this is at the Moulin Rouge again This is a TKO in the ninth round of a 10 round fight

Wilhelm was knocked down in the second and seventh rounds but still came back and knocked him out Oh boy good for him now. Here's an article about his next fight because right now he's 12 1 and 1 making some noise Yeah, and this is from the Los Angeles Times May 26th 1963 and it says Holmberg or Holmberg add spark to Vegas title card. They said this is by a guy named John Hall and it said there are those who think he's spreading it on a little too thick. But Wilhelm von Holmberg sneer and swagger have suddenly become the hottest item in Los

Angeles boxing. He boxes exactly like he wrestles. He comes to the ring the same way. He plays the heel. It's how he's trying to get, you know, because if people pay money to see you, yeah, fuck it. In 14 Pro Bouts, the 22 year old Berlin born heavyweight with the fire red hair has yet to prove himself a grade A fighter,

but he's a grade A character and the latter seems to be more important. Check with Cassius Clay. Cassius Clay was also a great fucking fighter and Muhammad Ali. Yeah. So he was calling Muhammad Ali a bad, not a great fighter, just a great character in 1963. That's pretty funny. That's going to age well dipshit. Barnum's folks are ever increasing so circus people. At any rate, Homburg's in demand. Homburg's in demand. He's just been added to the Harold Johnson Willie Pastrano light heavyweight title card Saturday night in Las Vegas in hopes he'll help perk up the LA interest in the event. Teddy Brenner has been asking about him too said Vegas promoter Red Greb indicating national

TV is also nibbling. Homburg whose box score reads one near riot at the Olympic last September one wounded referee, three unscheduled fistfights at Main Street gym and another near riot last Monday night at the Roulan Rouge. Twelve wins, one loss, one draw, seven knockouts, one canceled TV series and five broken hearts. We'll meet Tommy Merrill of the 6th round semi under Johnson Pastrano. So he's a fucking menace. They're literally like in the last couple weeks he's gotten in fights here, a referee

got hurt, he's brawling at the gym. He's a crazy person. Wild. He's fucking crazy. Greb, the promoter, said, I hear he's a red hot attraction, but can he fight? It was a tough question. Homburg was floored twice last Monday night by Bobby Sand before getting up to win by KO in the ninth.

He's really only a light heavy, scaling at 176. There was no cruiser weight back then, so you were a heavyweight if you were more than a fucking super middleweight or whatever. And many of his moves are still amateurish, but he's got two big pluses going for him, ambition and courage as well, and his knack for stirring up emotions.

He could be very good, but there's a long way to go. If Art Aragon were still going to the fights, he'd love him. Gene Tunney would be horrified. Okay. June 1st, 63 at that card, he fights Tommy Merrill, who is a 24, 18 and three fighter coming into this fight. This will be the last fight of his career. It is no, it's a draw.

It's a draw, complete draw on the, on the cards goes all six is no it's a draw. It's a draw complete draw on the cards goes all six rounds and it's a draw. So he's 12 1 and 2. He's going to fight Bobby Sands again here who he went down twice and came back to win. This time he fights him and they still go to the ninth round. It's still a TKO but Wilhelm doesn't get knocked down a couple times first. Next up he fights Chuck Leslie, who's 11 and 5 coming in. He'll end up 29, 26 and 6 in his career, so a lot of fights anyway. This is a loss. It goes all 10 rounds and he loses on the cards.

Damn it. So he's 13, 2 and 2. Now here is an episode here, or this should be the episode title, because they talk about him as being short on class and long on arrogance here in this next article. September 19th, 1963, Los Angeles Times by a guy named Sid Ziff, who looks exactly like he sounds. What does that mean? Just a dorky guy with glasses. Sid Ziff who looks exactly like he sounds. What does that mean?

Just a dorky guy with glasses. Sid Ziff and the title of this article is Beatnik of the Ring. And Beatnik is an insult from a guy named Sid Ziff. That's not a compliment. That's like somebody archie bunker calling somebody a hippie. Counterculture shit. And here is by the way Vigo is a young man. Here's a picture of him.

I'll turn the monitor to you there. Wow. There he is. Who does he look like? He's like a big blockhead. He's got a big fuckin' head on him, this guy. So they said, forget your almost lack of interest in boxing for a moment.

The Olympic tonight features a boxing beatnik in its main event. A boxing beatnik. Yeah, right! Wilhelm von Homburg. Fucking Karoak's gonna get in the ring and knock some people around. Some scumbag. Fucking Ginsburg will be there. Wilhelm von Homburg is an interesting 23 year old heavyweight who's brought a touch of carny atmosphere to the reasonably honest business of prize fighting. He has

adopted the masquerade of a wrestler. His blonde hair, he swears it's natural, hangs in loose disarray down the back and sides. His costume consists of black corduroy pants with narrow cuffs, black turtleneck pullover sweater, red corduroy jacket, and small boots, Italian style. He has the same profile and bears a striking resemblance to gorgeous George, who was the big wrestler of that time who they say that gorgeous George got a lot of people to buy fucking TVs to watch him get beat.

You know, that was a thing back then. So he says the perfumed mat man, he sneers insolently at reporters and treats others and his own profession with contempt He has only to make an appearance and he is the villain This is the stuff wrestling is made of but there is protection to be had on the mat and none at all in the prize ring Yeah, it's all staged in the in the ring, but not not in boxing. Well, I mean some of it is but He's gonna be a couple of outcomes that are rigged I would say he said even the name Wilhelm von Homburg is in vet as an invention and

Wilhelm said quote I thought it up out of the air. He says indifferently his real name is Norbert group Hey, he came from Germany two and a half years ago Yeah, that's a two and a half years ago to join his father Who was a professional wrestler in the Chicago area known as the Viking. Wilhelm planned to work with him as his valet. It's a charade long familiar with this racket. The father is from West Berlin but advertises himself from East Berlin to make himself seem nastier. Wilhelm was communist in the 50s and 60s. That's where Stalin drew the line there. So that's yeah, it's the non-democratic part. Wilhelm has learned to speak English flu communist in the 50s and 60s. That's where Stalin drew the line there. So it's yeah, it's the non-democratic part.

Wilhelm has learned to speak English fluently in the brief time he's been in this country. And Wilhelm said, quote, I had to pick it up. Nobody was going to learn German just to talk to me. That is how it worked. I guess so. Von Homburg was pure inspiration, but Wilhelm is one of the boxer's many names. He says in Germany everybody has four or five names. They name you for your uncles, cousins and your grandfathers. They want

to do everybody in the family a favor. Wilhelm was one of them. So it's probably Wilhelm, Nordbert, Wilhelm, this one, that one, whatever the fuck. So the next part of the article is short on class, long on arrogance. It was an accidental meeting with his manager, Heinrich Friedrich Wilhelm August von Sturm, better known locally as Baron von Sturm, that moved Wilhelm to turn boxing. The Baron has been gathering heavyweights for 40 years. Some have turned out to be very good. It may be that von Hamburg will get somewhere. He has no science, but he has great fury He fights like a pack of hungry wildcats Mainly it's because he does not like his opponents. He sees no reason why he should like anyone

Especially someone who's trying to beat him up. That's why he seldom will shake hands before the bell He won't not gloves He said if I do not like you, I won't shake hands with you. You don't have to shake hands with people you don't like. Fair enough. Very German of you. Very aggressive, too. Yeah, aggressive German, like stereotype German.

He dismisses with contempt reports that he has a weak chin. He says, I think I am pretty good. I think I will make something of myself whiz or without help from the press. That's they wrote in his accent whiz or without the questions. So one pictures Wilhelm seated at a table in some smoke filled Greenwich Village cellar. He would be the type calling him beatnik, to be in the Greenwich Village with some poet shit going on. I asked, what do you do between fights? I exist, he said loftily. I have a horse, a motorcycle, and a car.

I speak five languages, English, German, lower German, lower English, and about people. About people? That's not a language. That's literally what he said. You speak two languages. Yeah, two. You speak English and German. And I don't know, there might be, there might be German and lower German, but there isn't English and lower English.

English is English. Either, either doing it wrong or not. Does he think, does he think he means he speaks holler? Is that what he, what is he talking about? He, then they go on, he glared triumphantly about him. He had proved he had a sense of humor. They said, and what's your ambition, Wilhelm? And he said, to be a rich man.

I want to live, live, live. Okay, he said, when I'm 25, I want to retire. I don't want to work anymore. Who the fuck doesn't? Yeah, no shit. The author here goes on to say he's not giving himself much time being 23 now. That I know, he snapped with an intentional sneer. What do you think of American girls?

I asked him. Quote, I haven't found them too exciting. You can have them. American girls are spoiled. They know everything how to double cross you and get all your dough. Well, he figured that out about athletes anyway, groupies and shit. They said in European girls are different. He said they don't compare. He said, but this is a long story to find out. You must go to Europe,

but not just for 15 or 20 days. You must have sex with many European women. Over the course of several months of a long period of time, September 19th, 1963, he fights again Billy Stevens, 17 and 8 coming in at the Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles. Wilhelm's going to lose on points after 10 rounds. So, we're still in 63. He's fought 18 times in like a year and a half, which is pretty... That's unbelievable. That's a shitload, man. So, November 18th,th 63 he fights Mo Ratliff who's 17 and 22 coming into this fight and he's gonna be 17 and 23 when he ends his career because last fight of his

career and this is a split decision win after 10 rounds for Wilhelm here is an article from November 20th 1963 and they talk about the Des Moines register Talks about his real name They will Helms real name is Norbert group a which you see leaves a great deal to be desired Norbert has 18 fights taking on such illustrious Pugilist says Gus calf rope Freeman Harden and Sam Wyatt. He's working off a winning string of no fights. He has lost his last two in a row. He blames myopic referees, sunspots,

the bomb and economic conditions in general to say nothing of zebrots, meaning the broads, by the way that means, who will just not leave him alone. He's been stopped only once in his career by Freeman Hardin who he characterized sneeringly as a nobody. Norbert has a training program modeled after such celebrity athletes as Tommy Manville and King Farouk.

He gets his road work in on the dance floor. He's usually seen in a company of a quote, cousin, whom he has great many of in this country, mostly female. He has beer for breakfast because the coffee in this country is so lousy. And also he's an alcoholic. When his manager insisted on early morning road work, Norbert brought a horse. There you go here. I can ride this in the morning the horse is very funny the Dops for other coffee or just beer really because American coffee is for pussy's like what is it like it not good like that German coffee They say the horse as a result is an excellent shape after lunch the most exercise Norbert gets is blowing his nose He says that he thinks gigolo would be his most appealing profession. They said

Wilhelm Nye Norbert has been in his brief 23 year career on this earth in addition to a wrestler, a butcher, bartender, waiter, bricklayer, truck driver, fighter and gigolo. The only one he cared for was the last. He is available for anything short of biting the heads off of chickens. He said he's handsome in a in a Siegfriedian kind of way. I don't think they mean Enroy. The eyes are blue and limpid, the mouth large and generous, the teeth are even, the hands are white and soft but as huge as meat platters. If Norbert can put together a winning streak of one, he proposes to challenge Liston forthwith. Sonny Liston. What?

If you've heard his episode, I don't think he wants to fight Sonny Liston. And even though Norbert went just far enough in school to learn to make change, he expects to hold a decided intellectual edge over Liston, which will be useful only if Liston chooses to turn the match into a debate over foreign policy. If worse comes to worse, Norbert feels he can take over the old helmet Dantene rolls. He looks, he admits modestly, quote, simply gorgeous, he says, I'm simply gorgeous.

In a Luftwaffe's pilot's uniform, although I expect he'd have to put his hair up in a bun to get it under that 50 mission crush cap, the accent is legit enough, having been picked up around West German beer halls as a kid Okay fights Bob McKinney in

January of 1964 Now Bob McKinney is also called Irish babe McCarthy by another guy. So I got him way off Bob's 28 and 4 coming into this fight Jesus Not too shabby here. This is at the New York Coliseum in the Bronx Which was a newly opened shitty thing the one of the ref is Arthur Mercante who's still doing he was doing fights 3040 years later. That's crazy. He wins by TKO in the ninth Norbert does and here's an action shot of him fighting Look at his hair. His hair is slightly shaggy. It's not below his ears or anything. The title of this picture is Long Hair at the Coliseum.

Are you sure he's not the one on the left? I'm positive. That's him. Lightweight Wilhelm Homburg who wears his long blonde hair sends a right to the jaw of Bob McKinney. That's him. No shit. Yep. Bob McKinney kind of looks like A.C. Yeah, Bob McKinney kinda looks like AC Slater in that black and white picture. He certainly looks nice. Now, Bob just quit in the ninth round, said he was dizzy.

Quit. Quit, stopped in the ninth round, said, I'm fucking done. He said, because my head feels so dizzy, I just can't go on. He, it's fucking crazy. He basically stopped, I'll let this guy describe it. He said the night of the fight, here we go, both fighters threw a series of mighty facial contortions at each other.

By the seventh round, Mr. McCarthy's face was so sore from grimacing, clearly he had trained with the wrong muscles, that he forgot to make a face. Whereupon Wilhelm von Homburg delivered a series of punches to the jaw. Wilhelm did it again in round eight. As the bell rang for round nine, Wilhelm leaped from his stool and dashed across the ring to Irish Babe, determined to deliver the coup de grace. With a calm, deliberate gesture, not unlike Moses delivering a message to the Red Sea, Irish babe McCarthy, not his name, thrust his left hand forward like a traffic cop wearing boxing

glove and hollered, hold it. I don't know, that's part of the sport. Wilhelm obediently stopped. Really? Then McCarthy turned his back to his antagonist, leaned against the ropes and faced the fascinated spectators. Quote, ladies and gentlemen, I really hate to spoil your evening, but this announcement is necessary. As you can see, I'm just not getting anywhere here and I've had the same feeling my last few fights. Therefore, this is really pointless. It really is. He said, consequently,

I take this opportunity to announce my retirement from boxing. He's done. The decision is final Then he turned to Wilhelm and bowed and then turned to the audience and bowed Grabbed his robe wrapped it around himself and fucking took off left the ring around himself. Nobody even bothered to wrap him up Give me that peace bitches So they was ten minutes before visitors were allowed into his dressing room They said the eye had been nearly closed was closed all the way and a gash laid open He said don't knock me guys. I was dizzy. I was dizzy for a couple of rounds, but in that last one it got worse There's no reason for it. I just couldn't get things clear. He was just jabbing me in that last round light taps

They were but they felt like hard rights or something. I thought I was hearing bells and like that. He had a concussion. That's why. McKinney said that as if he were ashamed of what he had done. In 34 fights he'd been beaten only four times. Then he braced himself like a man who says, quote, what am I apologizing for? And he lashed out. Look, I don't have to stay in that lousy ring and get killed, do I? I owe it to myself and my family to stay alive and well. Hell, I don't need this thing. I'm no dummy. I can get a job. I've been offered lots of positions. I can always get a good job, a safe job. Yeah. He said,

he said, Maybe it's mental fellows. Maybe that's all it is. But I'm going to have to have a doctor check me out. My wife is all the family I got, but she's the sweetest kid in the world and I owe her that. The sweetest kid. She's the sweetest kid in the world. Yeah. That's how they talk back then.

She's a sweet kid. That one. So Wilhelms 15 three and two. And yeah, Von Homburg here said, I do not wear a crew cut because I don't want people to think I came out of the army or prison. Because they asked him, why do you have such long hair? His hair is not long.

No, it's not. It's tough as shoulders. It wouldn't even be a mullet. It's barely below the hairline in the back and it's just sitting on top of his ears like it's The Beatles have way longer hair than him at this point Like it's fucking crazy. So but that's why he doesn't want to do that. So By the way in this newspaper in 1964. There's an article right by it that said grid fatalities dropped 26%

meaning football football fatalities dropped 26%, meaning football. Football fatalities dropped 26% in 1963 compared to the previous year. What happened in 63? What did they? Shit, they said that the Football Coaches Association said the deaths in the sport went from 19 in 1961 and 62 to 14 last year.

Yeah, we're really getting so much better. 11 of them were in high school. Okay. One each in Sandlot, Professional, and College play. So mainly high school kids. Pretty safe sport then. He said eight football fatalities last year were ascribed to indirect causes such as heart failure, perforated aortas, things like that, like Corey Stringer type shit.

Athletes that don't know they have a heart issue. So that's interesting. Next up here, you can, by the way, this article below, in case you're looking for it, merely shrinking hemorrhoids is not enough. Oh, no. Not enough. No. Altogether.

Yep. You got to learn how, read how a clinically proven formula now brings a more complete longer lasting relief Great because a small hemorrhoid is just as annoying as a big one. Can't you shrink them? No, no, he fights Roy career up next here April 7th 1964 oh and three coming in and Wilhelm TKOs him in the sixth in the fifth round making him 16 3 and 2. This is at the Stockyards Coliseum in Oklahoma City. I bet you can smell poop there. Just sure it's I'm sure it's certainly you can. Now 1964 in April that was April 7th. This is April 19th Boston Globe under the TV listings for 10 o'clock Gunsmoke the TV show

Which by the way was the longest running live-action television show in history. I think it was over 20 years it ran Here it says Vic Perrin John Newman Wilhelm von Homburg. He's in it this week. You got an acting job a Country bumpkin who forsakes farming to seek his fortune in the city finds himself promoting a prize fight. And that's where Wilhelm comes in as the prize fighter. There's an article saying the script is favorable to von Homburg who weighs 180 pounds. His opponent scaled 147. We went out to the gun smoke set and found Wilhelm wearing long underwear type boxing togs and a black and red robe.

His face was a mess of make-believe bruises. His opponent didn't look too bad, which indicated that he runs during much of the show. I worked in German television, mostly stunt work, said Wilhelm, who was at one time the junior member of a two-man wrestling team. His father was the senior member. The 23-year-old von Hamburger insists that he's taking acting work seriously. It's no easy cup of schnapps, he said. Even when comparing it to a punch in the nose, no easy cup of schnapps. I've never thought schnapps was easy. That's

the hardest thing. One of the hardest things I've ever done in my life. And fuck, I never thought to drink a cup of it. And all you got to do is swallow it. It's not it's not easy. He said a cut doesn't hurt. I had I had two in my last two fights Just a couple of stitches will take care of a cut. They said brave man that Wilhelm talking about stitches that way He said it's no easy bread acting. I think real acting takes a lot of strength and you have to be emotionally able I mean dramatic stuff not this throw a line here and there. That's not much of a headache. What I'm doing is easy, but if I'm going to be an Academy Award winner here, they said

Von Comberg's status as an actor is on par with his rating as a fighter. He's got a long way to go. In fact, that's what he humbly brings himself to admit. Quote, if you're a big actor like John Arness, I don't who the fuck that is Jim Arness sorry never heard of him or a big fighter like Sonny Liston you make a lot of money if you're a little actor like me or a little fighter like me you don't make much and by the way if you happen to be in Des Moines that night when that article came out head over to the Green Acres Drive-In theater where they're playing two two adult movies at the drive-in.

Oh, a double feature. You want to have huge dicks on a giant outdoor screen that children can drive by. The are, wow, this is crazy. One of the movies is that kind of girl. And it says high school age and over must see. And then the next up is a question of adultery, the most explosive problem of our time. Oh my goodness. Okay.

In 1964 here, he ends up going over to Germany here and they talk about basically he learned this persona not only from wrestling but also from Muhammad Ali at the time who was becoming very famous as a boxer and he did wrestling so he was like oh that's just what you do you know because Muhammad Ali got his stick from wrestling he said I mean that was his whole thing from gorgeous George was his whole deal so he does all of that and he grew his blonde hair over his ears and they would call him the beetle boxer because of his long hair over his ears as long from Germany.

He in Germany while boxing he wore fur coats, smoked cigars, taunted the referees, trainers and crowds. He posed in the ring. He'd hit you a couple of times and pose like a wrestler and walked around town like he owned it. He spat at the crowd. People still tell me I was the first boxer they ever went to see, he said years later. And you know, he also would win a lot. And a lot of these guys too, he's fighting at like 180. This next fight, May 8th, 1964 in Germany, he fights Ulli Ritter. He's weighs in at 179 his opponents to 215

Oh, that's a lot a lot bigger 40 pounds. Yeah 30 pounds 35 pounds and That his opponents also a 24 18 and 7 fighter to a big guy and he goes the distance with the guy Really and gets there's a draw on points So it's 16 3 and 3 if he if there was a cruiserweight division He'd be dominating it back then because everybody he fights is over 200 pounds may 29th 1964 later in the month. He fights gene Cuban who this is in Oldenburg in Germany here KO in six rounds for Wilhelm. So he's 17, three and three.

He's also acting. There's the episode of Gunsmoke called The Promoter. He played a bare-knuckle boxer named Otto who's offered a large bribe to throw the fight. And somebody says to him, young man, you ever stop to think about what you're gonna do for a living when you get a little bit older and Wilhelms line is I'm too busy trying to stay alive in my youth doc

Okay, you know Next up November 6 1964 he fights lard Lard is his first name L. A R D lard Olaf Norling Sure, wow Lard Olaf Norling. Sure. Wow. This goes nine rounds and Wilhelm wins with a TKO. So 18-3-3. Next up, Paulie Bommer Kraus. And this is also in Germany. Third round knockout for Wilhelm. 19-3-3. Next up, December 5th, Joseph Sias Sias Sias Sias Sias Sias Yep. Oh no. Sias. Two and ten coming in so not very good. Two and eleven for his career so you know what happened here. We'll forget him now. TKO in the tenth

round never think of him again. Next up he fights Piero Tomassoni, January 16th, 1965. He's a 23-3-3 fighter coming in. Okay. Not bad, and he beats Wilhelm on points. Goes all 10 rounds, and unanimous decision for Piero here. 20 wins, 4 losses, 3 draws for our guy. He's going to fight Uli Ritteritter again February 20th. So one more fight against Uli Ritter here. TKO's him in the sixth round. Next up April 2nd 65

Jose Angel Manzor. He's 30, 24, and 13 coming in and Wilhelm beats him by TKO. This is in Vienna. Not bad. Vienna waits for you and you go over there and knock the shit out of people. Good thing. So eight and ten or eight. Eighth round out of ten rounds there. So the article here says Norbert Group A of Berlin, who calls himself the Prince of Hamburg, moved more than proved more than a clown when he stopped rugged Argentine heavyweight champion Jose Manzoor in the eighth round. The referee stopped the fight Friday night as Manzoor who had taken repeated hard lefts to the head throughout the fight appeared to be in

a state of shock Who was out on his feet is what it was Jesus shock fucking a and that is um, I'll have a few more fights But he's only gonna from this point in his career that that guy's gonna go to an eight. So is that right? Yeah, it's I think he fucked them all up there April 29th 1965 he fights Baz von Duven Bode Wow his real name birth name is Bastion Adrenius van Duben Bode

hoof 12 5 & 4 coming in and Knock out in the fourth round for Wilhelm. So he's 23-4 and 3. That's a good record. He's a great fighter. This isn't bad. Apparently he's not very skilled, but he fucking beats people. You know what I mean?

Oh shit. He's not the greatest technical fighter. He doesn't have a lot of amateur background or anything. Handmakers just catches him, whatever. However he does it, he's winning. May 28th 1965 Archie McBride he fights 31 and 17 coming into this fight and it's a draw It's a draw again ten rounds. It's draw. So he's 23 4 and 4 now

He's gonna do a little acting. He's in a movie looks like an Italian movie or something here it's called a moratory moratory and a war pacifist is blackmailed to pose as an SS officer and to disable the scuttling explosives on a freighter carrying rubber cargo to be captured by the allies this is the most complicated log line i've ever heard in my life i don't know what the fuck they just said i lost all all of that. He's fighting for something. Yeah. Oh, it's got Yule Brenner and Marlon Brando in it.

It's a big movie. It's not a little Italian movie. Yule Brenner and fucking Marlon Brando. Yeah, it's seven out of 10 on IMDB and two hours. Wilhelm plays a crew member. I don't know. May 14, 1966, Eric Schopner,per he fights 34 and one coming into this fight for shopper

34 1 & 4 so for draws this fight goes all 10 rounds. It's a draw and Shopper never fights again. He's gonna finish his career 34 1 & 5 How about that that is cream us to gave him second thoughts about his career. So he's going to act again. He's in The Last of the Secret Agents, which is a 1966 comedy. Marty and Steve, American tourists in France, are given a multi-purpose umbrella and pitted against an international band of art thieves. Among the stolen treasures is the Statue of Liberty.

This looks like shit. It says four, four point six stars out of, uh, out of 10 on how do you steal the Statue of Liberty? I don't know how you steal an island. Minions. What do you have to, they, they bolted it to that Island, man. You'd really have to do a lot. It's really anchored down.

He's also in a movie that is, he's in an Alfred Hitchcock movie. Which one? Alfred Hitchcock directs him. It's a Paul Newman Julie Andrews movie called Torn Curtain. Holy this guy acted with Paul Newman. Yeah. Wow. An American scientist publicly defects to East Germany as a part of a cloak and dagger mission to find the solution for a formula resin before planning an escape back to the West and Von Homburg plays blonde twin and bus In that okay, he's gonna do a little more acting. He's in the cat Was that it looks like Sean Connery in that picture Sean Connery looks like Sean Connery

1966 movie here. It's an 8.1 out of 10 on IMDB The other one's only a 6.6 that Hitchcock one must not have been a good Hitchcock a former circus aerialist and reformed cat burglar offers his services as a professional bodyguard and He plays a lot of tough Tony shit in the movie. Yeah, that's all it is Acting here. He does some more acting. He's in a lot of tough man shit in the movies. Yeah, that's all it is. Acting here, he does some more acting. He's in a TV series called Jericho, which was on from 66 to 67. The Jericho team is a trio of allied specialists who operate as intelligence agents and saboteurs behind German lines.

He's always playing a German. I mean, he's not going to play like he's from Iowa with that accent. No. Franklin Shepard of American Army Intelligence is their commanding officer and chief planner. Jean Gaston-Andre of the Free French Air Force is the team's demolitions and weapons expert. Nicholas Gage of the British Navy is a former circus performer whose specialty is getting in and out of German installations. So it's like a shitty war based oceans 11 basically.

He played a German sergeant in one episode. Yeah, of course. There you go. November 19th, 1966, he's going to fight Piero del Papa. He's a 30 and three fighter. Yeah. Piero del Papa. Not bad. this fight, it's a 15 round fights, a title for the European light heavyweight title. Oh, I can't believe they did that.

Fucking crazy that goes into the 11th round when a fight is called and Wilhelm is disqualified. Wow. He was a head on points. Wilhelm is disqualified. Wow. He was ahead on points. He knocked Del Popo down in the first round, was ahead on points and was, I guess this was a big controversy that they stopped this fight for headbutting. Okay. If that was true, Holyfield would never have a fight.

He'd never have a fight go past the third round if he couldn't headbutt. Because that was half his attack. But Wilhelm's the headbutter? He's the headbutter and he loses the fight because of the headbutting and he could have won. In Ghostbusters he's got a giant fucking noggin. Yep and by the way this Piero del Papa, him going down in the first time in the first round was the first time he's ever been down in a fight. Oh. 36 pro fights the first time he's ever been down. How about it? So he did it with Richard, Wilhelm said he did it with Richard's right, acknowledging it's his dad's right hand that he taught me.

He said he looked like the better fighter for most of the match, but in the 11th, the French ref declared what now looks like a subtle head movement to be an illegal headbutt and called the match for Del Papa. Wow. Norbert would later say, I was the best thing German boxing had back then. And then I had a 70 year old Frenchman as the referee. We all know what the Germans did to his parents and his sister. So he said the Frenchman didn't like me because I was German basically. So he's 23, five and five now. He there's a

filmmaker who made a boxing documentary about Wilhelm here called Der Boxprinz, the boxing prince in German. In the film, they watch the Del Papa match together and Norbert stares at his younger self throwing hard rights and taking hard rights. And the film chronicles the darker side of Norbert's life from that era, including the an infamous TV interview that he gave in 1969 at the tail end of Norbert's life from that era, including the infamous TV interview that he gave in 1969 at the tail end of his boxing career. This is very interesting.

He got TKO'd and basically humiliated by Oscar Bonavena, an Argentinian guy who had gone the distance with Joe Frazier two matches earlier. So a good fucking boxer. I guess they were talking about this on a German interview show, and the host, Rainier Gunzler, started off by asking Norbert in German, how do you feel after those five knockdowns last night?

What'd he say? The camera is close up on Norbert's face, his blonde mustache and thick lips and his angry eyes. Norbert sarcastically asks, that was last night? Then Gunzler says, you injured your ankle during one of the knockdowns. Did you stumble? Norbert laughs and looks away, ignoring the small TV man's taunt. Gunzler asks another question and Norbert looks him straight in the eyes and says nothing. He licks his lips and stares at the host. He gets his look and he's a very,

if you saw the Vigo painting, he's a very scary looking man when he wants to be. Menacing shit. For the next minute and a half, Norbert refuses to respond to any of Gunzler's questions and comments. He pulled a Marshawn Lynch here. Yeah. I'm here so I don't get fined. Yep. He said, it's not boring television the explosion obviously happening behind Norbert smile and the fact that he could get up at Any second and rip this man's head off makes it riveting. How is he gonna kill him? So Rona said Norbert kept his cool

I could see that he was about to go off that guy got that guy came close to getting choked out and Yeah that guy came close to getting choked out. And yeah, later on the documentarian said, all men over 50 years old know about this interview. It's very famous in Germany apparently. Is that right? Very famous. Krosky's film shows Norbert watching the Del Papa fight from three decades earlier and raging about the unfairness

of the headbutt induced disqualification. Jesus, it wasn't the title I was after it was the cash he says. I just wanted a winning make the money. He said if Norbert had won and gotten the chance for an even bigger bout he says I'm sure I would have bet all my winnings on my opponent and I would have gone down convincingly and made a terrible scene. I'd plan the whole thing. He was going to throw the next fight after betting on himself. He's like after betting on his opponent. Yeah. I'm not in in this for glory I'm in this for fucking money so 66 he fights Archie McBride here in Frankfurt and he KOs him in the ninth round he loves going into

the late rounds here Jesus Christ May 3rd 1967 he fights Ray Patterson who's 16 and 7 and this goes all 10 rounds again, and it's a draw again Wow These German judges just hand out draws like candy Well it builds suspense. I think I think come back for the next one like they have such a bad reputation They're trying to be nice to everybody now. They're like everybody's in Everybody's in okay., everybody happy with Germany? Come back for the next fight. Yeah, it's no.

Maybe win again. Maybe again, 24, five, and six in his career now. He's also gonna do more action, more acting. 1967, he's in a comedy called Pension Clausewitz. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's Germaners. It's gotta be German. I've never heard any of these people

Stemka becomes the owner of a Berlin brothel. Yeah, if you're leading characters name is stem cut. It's not American Who's a leader of a brothel Jesus in order to refresh the establishment? He immediately hires two attractive young ladies and guess what he plays in this Wilhelm pimp an American Oh, why would you okay? He's? An American. Oh. Why would you? Well, yeah. Okay, he's the most American-looking German we could find in Germany. Over here he plays Germans, over there he plays some fucking Americans. So then he's also in a TV show called The Invaders, which the description is, aliens are here posing as human and not friendly.

So it's like that weird Fox show in the 90s, remember that? Yeah, but he does look like an alien he does David Vincent has seen them land and now must evade them and convince others their presence of their presence while not being put in the body Hatch and he plays von Homburg plays an alien patient Yeah, so I think he's the I think he's a person. I think he's a person who's a patient of an alien. He's been taken by the aliens Okay, just I don't know though December 15th, 1967 Paul Rau R.o.u.x Rau Roo Roo Roo Part Roo

It's French. It's something 19. He's 52 14 and 7 coming into this fight. Oh pretty good Wilhelm knocks him out in the fifth round. Wow. Not bad. Back to acting. He's in the Devil's Brigade here. Sure. An action movie. A US Army Lieutenant Colonel is tasked with forming an elite commando style unit from crack Canadian troops and the dregs of the US Army. It has William Holden in it. Look at that. Okay. He plays Fritz in that movie. Not shocking. Range. The range. The range from a German guy to an American who looks German. April 18 or April 11th, 1968. Dave Bailey, he fights 15 and 17 coming in and he loses to this guy.

Goes all 10 rounds, he loses on points. I mean maybe he's not training because he's acting. That could probably be it. He's in another movie now 1968, The Hell with Heroes, and that is in 1946 North Africa two former US Air Force pilots are forced to work for an international smuggler to get money needed for their return to civilian life after fighting in World War two and He plays Hans Might as well as everybody would know Franz whatever another role he's in the wild wild west the TV show that terrible movie remake

But the the TV show was a big deal. That was a big deal. It was on for five years, I think. Yeah. It has an 8.1 out of 10 on IMDB2. And he plays Her Hess, Abel Garrison, Gunther Pierce. He's in three different episodes. They liked him.

Wow. They actually liked him. He's also in a whole art. Yeah, maybe into different characters, but still. He's also in The Wrecking Crew, which is a movie starring Dean Martin. Dean Martin starring movie, yeah. 1968 action adventure comedy, 5.4 on IMDB. Gold bullion worth US dollar 1 billion, so a billion US dollars, has been stolen from a hijacked train in Denmark. The main suspect is count Massimo continue. The US government sends

Matt Helm one of its top agents to recover the gold. And I assume that's Dean Martin. And on the front it's a picture of Dean looking all happy with two wrecking balls are next to him with girls on them like hanging off like, yeah, you know, that's going to work out here. And Wilhelm plays Gregor in that. August 30th at 68, Rudolf Nearing, he fights, who's a 28, 19 and 11 fighter. And Wilhelm wins by TKO in the eighth round, 26, 6 and 6. So he's got 666 right there in there for him. September 18th 1968 Franklin Arendelle 1 and 4 coming in and Wilhelm KOs him in the third round in Vienna making him 27 wins now. November 8th 1968 Gerhard Zek he fights 33 8 and 3 and this is a goes all 10 rounds, but he wins on points

And they say in this article from the Nevada State Journal that heavyweight the title is loyal crowd helps group a Heavyweight Norbert group a Remained in contention for the West German boxing title because of the fierce crowd partisanship The judges called group a's 10 round elimination elimination bout with, I'm sorry, Burhard Zeck, that's right, his newspapers suck, a draw Friday night, but they changed the verdict when an angry bottle-throwing throng invaded the ring. They called a draw, the crowd fucking rioted and they said never mind he wins. That is crazy.

You guys are all right. Yeah. You guys watched. Wow. They explained it later saying that the referee had made an error in adding up the points on his scorecard. So it was never a draw. He's just bad at math.

You guys are right. You win. Yeah. Wow. Next up, January 3rd, 1969, Giulio Rinaldi. He fights 40 wins 11 losses coming into this fight TKO win for our friend here and there's actually a video clip of this. Hell. Yeah, you want to see a little Norbert getting this fucking is there some black and white 69. There's some color right?

Depends on where it's filmed. I mean the TVs were in color Everybody was broadcasting in color back then but people had black and white TVs. Where did they fight? This is in Schoenberg Germany So here we go. Let me do this. We will check out what Wilhelm von Homburg fucking does here and See when the internet's not so slow we'll do that, but why it's doing that to me there. We go buffers

James there you go internet now. We're working now. We're working And that okay come on. This is Julio Rinaldi Here we go come on and play here's Julio. Okay. Oh little black and white gong Gong fight. He is the blonde one, obviously. He is very blonde. Very blonde. Blonde mustache.

Looks like Boomerisciason with a big mustache. The guy he's fighting looks a lot thicker than him, too. He looks like that guy in King of the Hill that bangs everybody. Yeah. Who's that old lady? Some old German. Some old German twat there. Oh, this Julio has his numbered, right?

He seems to. He's really punching the fuck out of him here. This is just highlights of the fight. But no, von Hamburg Wilhelm knocks him out in the fucking fifth round. Is that right? Yeah. So he, you can see like he doesn't, he's not the most skillful guy. No. His stance is weird.

Everything's weird, but he'll knock your ass out. So he's 29, six and six now. Yeah. Almost 30 wins. He's gonna have a rematch against Julio here and lose by decision that time. Uh-oh. So now he's... We got it set up, set up for a big payday. And that's it, rubber match coming up, baby.

Yeah. And there's no doubt he was gonna lose that on points. This is, again, he fights him, and this time he TKOs him in the seventh round. Wilhelm threw that second fight, guaranteed. You think so? Fuck yeah. They said you lose this fight. I think they said you lose this fight,

the rubber match is where the money is, and he said, oh, I'll lose this fight. Don't worry, don't you worry about that. I will throw this fight, and rubber match is where the money is. And he said, Oh, I'll lose this fight. Don't worry. Don't you worry about that. I will throw this fight and I'll bet on Giuliano, Giulio, yeah. And it says group a beats Rinaldi and non-title fight. The article says, um, Rinaldi with blows to the head. Uh, he, I guess, Pat battered him. It says, and won a technical knockout after the seventh round of a non-title bout.

The ring doctor said a cut on Rinaldi's eyebrow was too bad for the fighter to continue. Group A fighting under the name Wilhelm von Hamburg weighed 187 pounds, two pounds more than Rinaldi in a non-title preliminary match, never mind. Okay, 30 wins, seven losses, six draws. Next up we have here Oscar Benavina, whose alias is Ringo for some reason. Johnny Ringo. That's all I think of when I see that Johnny Ringo. So big Beatles fan. Sure. Big Beatles fan. That's yeah. He's like, you know, make my hair soggy. And again, if you'd like to see a short clip, we have a clip for you. Got a little fight with the guy. They're gonna colorize too. Restored colorized, yeah.

Oh, look at this. There he is. He's got a white robe. Looks like a white bathrobe he's wearing to the ring. Yeah, it does look terry cloth, yeah. It looks like shit here. His hair, it's fascinating. They just come in looking disheveled, man.

All disheveled here. Let's see him fight a little bit. Does he have nice hair? Oh, look at this big guy. Look at this fucking Elvis looking. Yeah, he's peasy. Wow! Wow, that's him knocking the shit out of Wilhelm there. My God! See him fight a little bit. Oh, look at this big guy. He's fucking Wow, that's a knock in the shit out of Wilhelm there my god the left hook He just mauled him he hit him with a left right left

Four-punch combo buried his ass Wilhelm had no answer for No, none at all. He then this guy is so big. Oh, he's still on his feet. I just fast forward. He's still on his feet still on his feet Okay, he was just went down again and there is Wilhelm the fight looks like it's about to be called off right now Yeah, they call it is it's called. Yeah, they called it. So yeah, we'll help that big fucker Oscar What Benavina who outweighed him by over 20 pounds. It looks like it. It's not even close That's a big guy and he was 39 and 5 coming in and 58 and 9 in his career. He's a real boxer It's a good fighter. It's a TKO in the third round. Wilhelm's gonna lose here. So Yeah, and it was we just watched it. It was quick work. It's crazy

That's that's when he makes a scene on German TV after that. Oh really? Yeah That's when he lost his fucking mind That there's there's no way I'm ever gonna win again if I have to fight guys like that sure It's certainly not against that guy. No next up He fights Rutiger Schmidt Schmidt key who's 14 2 & 1 coming in and this fight goes the distance Wilhelm loses on points 30 wins 9 losses 6 draws. Blood in the water babe. Yep December 12th less than a month later he fights Jürgen Bleen who is 18 and 7 coming in this fight goes the distance and Wilhelm loses again. Oh no. He's going these 10 rounds every time and losing so now he's 30 10 and 6 next up February 11th he

fights Rudiger Schmidt key again goes the distance again do I even have to tell you he loses on points and this will be his last fight he retires after this fight he's lost his last what four or five fights on points it's enough already not good yeah getting pummeled for nothing here. So 30 wins, 11 losses, six draws. Oscar ruined him. It did, ruined him. Next up he's in a movie, a comedy movie called Die Herren mit der Wiesen West. What is that?

The German movie. Die Herren, the fish goes west at night? Is that what it is? Something. I think it's some sort of Nazi code for we're going to invade France now for invading Czechoslovakia. He says upon retirement, an elderly judge enlists pensioner friends to help him out with a boxing promoter for for who many for years has been involved in criminal activities.

I mean, he plays a boxer named Max Graf. activities. He plays a boxer named Max Graf. As he retires, he goes to live in St. Pauli Keys, which is a red light district of Hamburg. He developed a reputation in the underground here where he would associate with pimps and Hells Angels. That was his crew. Bikers and pimps, basically. He engaged in a number of affairs with both men and women. His sexuality is very fluid, by the way, Wilhelm. And he would just use tons of drugs and alcohol. He just made himself a red light district dirt bag after this.

Wow! That's what he wants to do. Fucking amazing. So one person here for that documentary Wow, that's what he wants to do fucking amazing so one person here for the that documentary went back to st. Pauli to speak to some of Norbert's old friends and One guy a boxer named Juergen Bleen who beat Norberg remember we just talked about him Let's see by the way Juergen got knocked out by a Muhammad Ali in 1971. So he was a good fighter to fight Ali.

It tells the documentarian that Norbert was the most talented boxer in Germany, but that alcohol and drugs were his downfall. They're saying he didn't train. He just drank and fucking did drugs and then he'd go fight people. How the fuck was he going to win? Bleen said he electrified people, but he ruined himself by the way he lived. They interview another one of his friends a guy named Stefan Hentschel who's a notorious pimp and he takes the filmmaker to a busy street at night

there and he said Norbert was the first or last person you'd want to have as a friend. First or last. He said that Norbert could have owned the city and been filthy rich except that he was always used by other people and couldn't hold on to his money. He said nobody really loved him an extreme guy ahead of his time. So during the the documentary a beggar approaches the filmmaker and. is the filmmaker and the the filmmaker. Oh no, this isn't the filmmakers. Another guy. This is the Hensel guy who was talking to the pimp guy during the documentary. A beggar approaches the pimp and the pimp punches the man in the face and walks away

asking for money and he just drills him. Yep. A few years later, Hensel hanged himself from a hook that was meant to hold a punching bag. Oh, good. Good and sturdy is what he said. Yep, so that's that. Another friend said everything he did, meaning Wilhelm,

he had to overdo. Norbert's life is one of the most dangerous I've ever known. His dangerous life landed him in prison for dealing hashish to an undercover cop. He does an on-camera prison interview where he looks sad and he's staring off into the prison yard. He claims to be a scapegoat and an old friend that the documentarian talked to said the same thing. He said he hung out with the wrong crowd and somebody had to go down. Yeah, that's what it is. April 1970, he and his wife Barbara get a divorce. He was still married to that Barbara lady after all this. He was literally in the red light district fucking men

and women and everything and he was married. That's crazy. It is by the way that July 12th 1970 one of his episodes of wild wild west is airing Yeah here, so that's very nice He's not in prison yet. That's the future Also, that's weird. There's this weird ad. It's like the the thigh master of its day It's called the trim a size looking for a sale here as shown on TV I have no idea it like it looks like a lawn chair that goes up instead of in Yeah, it looks like that ladder that collapsed on that guy in the commercial terrible home Exerciser tightens your muscles and takes inches off in just a few weeks. Yeah bullshit thing. Yeah, it's the original

Nordic track. Yeah, or whatever the fuck bullshit just whatever. Yeah He's also in a movie called the Swiss conspiracy Yeah, it's five out of ten and IMDB former US Justice Department official is hired as a security consultant for a Zurich-based Swiss bank when five of its clients are blackmailed and How von Hamburg plays a hitman in a cook suit. I don't know what that is, I guess a chef scrubs. I don't know. So Werner Herzog by the way, the German director

and big time director, I mean let's be honest here. He's amazing. He saw something in Wilhelm. Yeah? Yep, and he had watched, I guess He as a young man. He had watched him And seen him fighting so he cast him as a bullying pimp in a movie called strozek And a it's a 1977 film about an ex-con trying to leave Germany for a better life in the US sure Herzog said the prince was so clear and intelligent and radiated at the same time a feeling of danger

That absolutely terrified me. He was almost like a German Mike Tyson Everyone felt very uncomfortable around him like he could snap at any point and start punching him. Everyone said that about him He's gonna end up in jail here in the early ages. Yeah, he's gonna spend about five years total in jail What yes about five years in different prisons what? Well number one He was selling hash to undercover officers. He was jailed for that which was a big deal back then He also was jailed in the early 80s for beating the shit out of someone and causing actual bodily injury and harm. So he was put in jail for that.

And then, finally, this is my favorite one, he was jailed a couple years later when he got out of prison for the other thing, for being a pimp. He was pimping for aiding prostitution, which is pimping in European slang. Yeah. Sowing gals. So he's a fucking person punching drug selling fucking pimp is what he is. Dude fucking gal fucking pimp. Yeah, pimp. That's what he turned into. He spends about five years total, like I said, between the late 70s and the mid 80s.

He spends about five years of that time in prison for various different things. He gets out, he doesn't know what to do with himself. Where do you go? Where do you go now? That's the thing. What do you do? Where do you go?

And lucky for him, he's just sitting at home one day minding his own business and you never know, opportunity knocks and it knocks today. He's knocking, he looks out, it's Vince McMahon! Hey! Holy shit, it's CEO and ex-CEO and everything of WWE. And he says... How is it you've come to arrive here?

Look at you! Oh my god, I'll make you a Nazi. I know. What have I been looking for? Look, look, I know I can't offer you a job right now because I'm, there's some things that I have to clear up, but I'm starting something else and I'm telling you, you pimp women. You're the best. You pimp them. You know how to get a crowd going while you're pimping women and you're doing all these, oh my god, you're vascular. Look at you. Oh my goodness. Can you let me ask you this? Can you get your dad here? I Want you to you're a rapist. There's something about that

That's it's the crowd can tell the rape energy that you have in you and you're gonna be a star I'm telling you right now. Hold on schnitzel. I don't know if you've ever tried these before, but one moment here. Yeah. Try these overalls on for me. Oh God. There it is. And boom, he's gone in a cloud of 1099s and credible CTE reports. He's gone. Incredible. Incredible. So 1988 here, he gets his big acting break, which is not in Ghostbusters actually, which is in Die Hard. He plays one of the bad guys in Die Hard. One of those guys is him.

He plays the real Die Hard with Bruce Willis. Not some like Cinemax movie from 1983. Real Die Hard with Bruce Willis, 8.2 out of 10 on fucking IMDB, giant hit. And Norberg, or Wilhelm's character dies off screen when Bruce Willis throws plastic explosives down the elevator shaft. That's him down there that's chasing him.

So he's dead then, which is pretty good. Here we go. He plays, his name is James in the movie, whatever. He's a thug German guy. So 1988, August 5th, his dad dies. Oh no. He had a stroke and he died on August 5th, 1988, which is, what was he, 73? Yeah, he's the nicest guy in his life though, right? It is now by the way since Richard is dead now. Let's give the giveaway the Rona ending here Okay, is he the father or the brother? Turns out Richard was the father with a blood test Norbert. Thankfully was not the father of his sister So that's good to know. Yeah, that's excellent. I can't believe.

You are not the father. You are not the father. This is the most fucked up episode of Maury that's ever existed. Truly. You are a piece of shit. I mean, you snuck up and broke into a house and raped your stepmother. Either way, whether you're the dad or not, this is behavior we really got to work on. You know what I mean?

We got to send you one of those boot camps. We'll mix episodes. So yeah, after having a stroke, he died and Richard was cremated. His best friends, Steve Strong and Rona, and his ex-wife Ursula released his ashes along with three roses on the beach in Marina Del Rey where Richard had liked to swim with the dogs. And it's a beautiful place, Jesus. Not bad here. Strong went to see Richard in the hospital while he was dying, held his hand, he said he asked Richard to squeeze his hand if he could hear him, and Strong said he did.

He said he held on very long and tight that last visit. Days earlier he was still alive but unresponsive in the hospital. Fucking Wilhelm walked into the room while Rona was sitting there with her dying father and Wilhelm said to her now he's dying non responsive in a hospital bed while she sobs over it He walks in looks and says why are you wasting your time here with this asshole? That's his answer to it great guy Wilhelm Great guy. I'm going to start asking everybody that standing in a room with one other person, why are you

wasting your time with this asshole? Why are you wasting your time with this asshole? Rona said, are you kidding me? You're talking like this in front of my father? And Wilhelm said, that's not your father. And yeah, that's Rona said, I saw dad's eye open when Norbert said that and he was in a coma Yeah, this is when she rage filled This is when they she found out that that he might be her father and they did a blood test to find out

That's crazy when Rona was in her mid teens She had said Richard had shared an almost unfathomable story. He sat her down and said I don want you to go crazy, but there's a good possibility that you could be Norbert's daughter I don't want you to go crazy, but you could be the rape child of your brother actually Don't go crazy or anything, but your brother may have raped your mother and had you That is fucking crazy shit, man Wow now Rona, my mother was gorgeous and Norbert was in love with her.

So he had climbed up the fire escape and raped her. Golly. Yeah. So Rona, despite calling Norbert Wilhelm evil and despite his rape of her mother, never completely kicked him out of her life, actually. Still was close with Wilhelm The documentarian or the interviewer asked her why she kept in him in her life

Because a lot this parts from a Deadspin article that did a very good in-depth Oh really on him, so we got to give them credit for it. Yeah, absolutely so they said they've an interviewer asked her why she kept him in her life and Even if it's at a safe distance and she said that Norbert had a charisma that captured her and almost everyone he knew a charisma he raped your mother we talking about sometimes those predators are really good at it I mean Ted Bundy had charisma too but for fuck's sake no one when I don't know he's just family loved him she said he was funny and like her father was funny and like her father he walked like a boxer and talked like a boxer and she missed her father and Norbert was the closest thing

left. She said it was worth the trauma of the day to deal with this clown just so I could see a little Richard. Just want someone who reminds him of his father, of her father. So finally 1989 is his big break. It's huge. He's almost 50 here. He has his face is battered and you know, old old boxer, his long hair, it's, you know, grayish blonde and perfect his eyebrows. He's so good at it. Perfect to play like a-aged ruler of a fucking village. You know what I mean Vigo the Carpathian

Who is as the as he was cast Vigo the scourge of Carpathia the sorrow of Moldavia in Ghostbusters 2 His character's full name was Vigo von Homburg Duschen Dorf so they gave him the von Hamburg. Really? And Dushendorf. And Dushendorf. It was his dream role, obviously. He's the villain in the fucking Ghostbusters 2. He's the painting. How many times do they show that painting? So many times. It's just the painting of him, but it's powerful. It's a big budget movie. It's a giant budget movie at the time. And he said, on a mountain of skulls in a castle of pain, I sat on a throne, he growled. That's not him, though.

They replace him later, as we'll talk about. What? The voice is not his in that movie. Is that right? Absolutely. So this is a little clip from the book here of Ghostbusters I talked about. Vigo the Carpathian was meant to remain within the confines of the painting that controls Janus so the actor playing Vigo had to project malevolence at a standstill.

Most of the time, I mean, an actor has to do things. He has to just look scary just in one frame. Orthodox students of boxing were probably not surprised that the man hired for the job was Prince Wilhelm von Hamburg. So they talk about that. Now, he needs basically the man that they talk about all of this shit. He, they, it was a photograph creatively designed to look like a picture actually. They didn't paint it.

They just kind of, you know of touched up the picture there. And at the end is when he's supposed to come to life, Vigo. So his speech at the time was slurred and indistinct they called it. They didn't know what the fuck he was saying. So after all of his lines, they ended up being dubbed with Max von Sido's voice. Yeah, you can, that's his voice.

It's hilarious that that's what actually happened because it's just off just by a little bit. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Holy shit. You can tell just a little bit. And one of the sound effects artists who filmed, or effects artists who filmed behind the scenes footage said quote, poor Wilhelm von Homburg.

It seems no one told him his voice was replaced right they didn't tell him and he found out firsthand at the screening and then stormed out of the theater that's fucking fuck this movie fucking fucking Ghostbusters and everybody on set was afraid of him he was a menace He terrorized people really he's fucking crazy From the book Ghostbusters 2 producer Michael C. Gross wasn't afraid of the man. He hired for Vigo He was merely disgusted by him Quote I can only say he was a crude bigoted asshole Gross commented years later though Humbert was spiritually aligned with the sour Carpathian,

his voice did not have the theatrical quality Vigo necessitated. At least that's what Ivan Reitman decided. So yeah, they dubbed it in Max von Sido and there you go. Hilarious. So Ghostbusters 2, he is Vigo, that painting is, I mean, it's pretty fucking iconic, that painting. So he is replaced with another voice. Unreal.

I mean, Jesus Christ, that happens to a lot of people, you know? And I feel bad for all those people, Jimmy. I really do. But not nearly as bad as I feel for Norbert Grupe, Chief Executive Officer at Can Barbara SC. I don't know what this name very popular. Nope There's another one though, and it's this guy who is in the Mallorca metropolitan area No idea where the fuck Mallorca is it sounds like made-up shit where Andy Kaufman was from on taxi It's right next to Mipos is where it is. The island next to Mipos is Malorca.

It's like Turks and Caicos. It's one of those islands where it's Mipos and Malorcas. Mipos and Malorcas. Malorcas sounds like something your grandfather says instead of bullshit Malorca's it sounds like an Italian curse. I put them a lot of the malorca honor Because there's the evil eyes, which is similar. Yeah, so I like the malorca on them. I think it's in Greece Maybe that's what I'm gonna guess He's in another movie somehow after that. He's in the package starring Gene Hackman. Oh, so I mean, that's a big movie

1989 6.4 stars experience Green Beret sergeant Johnny Gallagher is Escorting a prisoner airborne ranger Thomas Boyett back to the US but boy had escapes and Gallagher must risk life and limb to catch him Wilhelm plays West Berlin police lieutenant life and limb to catch him. Wilhelm plays West Berlin police lieutenant. So that makes sense a German cop considering that's what his dad did. This has Gene Hackman, Tommy Lee Jones, John Heard who if you know who he is he's the he's the crooked cop in the Sopranos that jumps off the bridge. Pam Greer's in this, Dennis Franz is in this. The dad from Home Alone? Home Alone dad. Yeah. Home Alone dad. Fucking Pam Greer's in this, Dennis Franz is in this. The dad from Home Alone? Home Alone Dad, yeah.

That's him, yeah. Home Alone Dad. Fucking Pam Greer, Dennis Franz, this is like a lot of big people are in this fucking movie. And of course, Wilhelm von Hamburg. He also is in Midnight Cabaret, which is a 1990 horror movie. A Broadway producer puts on a play with a devil character in it. Soon the actors begin having nightmares and events that are mentioned in the play really start happening.

And he plays Juan Carlos. If anyone looks Spanish, it's the blondest man who's ever existed. You might as well have cast Phil Simms in that role. What the fuck are you talking about? Holy shit. He also is in From Bagman to Big Time, which is a short film, and he's the only actor in the short,

so it's like a one, following one actor, little short film thing. Who knows, yeah, probably. He plays Der Penner, is his thing. Next he's in Night of the Warrior. So now he's out of these big Hollywood productions. It went die hard, Ghostbusters 2, random Gene Hackman movie. Now we're into bad fighting movies.

How about that though? You can do one really great big movie and then you can be thrown into pieces of shit for years. Well all these pieces of shit hire him because they're like, he's Viggo the Carpathian. So they hire him because he's a familiar face. So Night of the Warrior, 1991, it's an action sport, it's called, fighting movie. And the cover is the warrior, it says Night of the Warrior and Warrior is written like the Double Dragon font on the old arcade machines.

It's got a guy with a taped fist standing over a city skyline Looks terrible three point seven stars on IMDB out of ten Miles Keene pays the debts for his dancing bar by illegally fighting when his debt is paid he refuses further collaboration But the fight mafia forces him to continue by threatening his mother the murder of his former lover joy and Kidnapping his girlfriend Catherine Price. Well, you could take my ex, fuck her, I don't care. Fuck you threatening her for. The fight mafia is going after your ex and that's what makes you fight more?

Yeah, I don't think so. After the last fight, the mafia plans to also kill Miles and Catherine. Right. Oh, of course they are. Why wouldn't you? This fuzz stars Lorenzo Lamas, there you go, who was in a bunch of terrible movies back then. Lorenzo Lamas and a bunch of people I've never heard of,

but if you saw them you go, oh yeah, that guy was in a couple of things. A lot of that shit going on here. He's also in Eye of the Storm, 1991 romance thriller starring Laura Flynn Boyle. Oh shit! And Dennis Hopper, actually too Boyle. Oh shit. And Dennis Hopper actually too. Wow.

Holy shit. That was post her Twin Peaks success, yeah? Yeah, yeah. Right around that same time, 91, so it's just when it's happening right now. It's right there, yeah. And who else is in it is the guy who plays Tom Nuttall in Deadwood.

Oh no shit. The bartender, yeah. Really? DeLeon Rippey is his name. I never knew his real name, but that's his name. He's that guy, he's in this movie as well. This is at a highway gas station motel diner where they live.

Hold on a minute. What, hold on, they live at the motel or the diner? They live at a highway gas station motel diner. That's all in one. Two young brothers witness their parents' murder. The whole family lives there Jesus the young brother younger brother is blinded in the same incident ten years later both brothers are still there That's the tragedy there

It says and the tragedy may have turned one of them psychotic when the abusive Gladstone and his young and sexy wife are stranded at The gas station it brings out the worst in everyone It sounds like one of those movies where they kidnap a couple and they break the life and do all that shit. Von Homburg's credit in here, killer. Oh, he's the bad guy, Jesus. He plays a killer, yep.

Well, I mean, he looks like a killer. There's killer and killer girl as well, played by an actress, so. His last notable movie was Digstown, Remember that with Louis Gossett, Jr. Who got to junior and digs town and James woods. James woods is in it. Yep. James woods and Louis Gossett, Jr.

It was a complete flop. Um, no, he had a role. He played Charles make make them digs actually Wilhelm, a vegetative character. Well, no, a vegetative X-Boxer who's been cheated out of his fortune and career. Oh, yeah. He didn't speak and barely moved in the movie. He was in a vegetative state.

He played a guy laying there, basically. Remember when you were laying still in a painting? I need you to do that in a bed. Remember that? Except don't look anything, just look. Just look at your fucking feet. Part your lips slightly. Did you watch you look slightly? There you go? Yeah, be that guy be that so digs down here

Yeah, it's Gabriel's release from prison his con man friend makes a foolish bet with dig digs towns owner Who'd win the boxing matches their man against ten digs town men? Jesus Christ, so that's his major last role and that's that had Oliver Platt, Bruce Dern, James Woods, Louis Gossett Jr, Randall Tex Cobb, Heather Graham is in that. It's a very early role for Heather Graham right after Drugstore Cowboy I think. All sorts of fucking people are in this movie man. The guy, that guy, Dwayne Davis, he plays, always plays a guy who's trying to tackle somebody in a movie. If you saw him, you'd go, oh him from all the football movies from the 90s.

He's in all of them. Okay, he's in Necessary Roughness and this one and that one. He's also, so yeah, he's also in, finally, a comedy which is a spoof, an attempted spoof called Silence of the Hams. Have I seen this? Is this, uh, it's a 1994 spoof of silence of the lambs. So probably at the time, is it like spy hard and, and, uh, lethal loaded weapon. It's like those, I think, except worse. The federal agent, Joe D.

Fawstar Joe one word D one word faux star is currently investigating a serial killer helped by Dr. Animal who is located in Maximum Security Jail. And he plays a maitre d in that. This stars fucking Dom DeLuise is in this. Holy shit. I swear I've seen this movie. Dom DeLuise, Billy Zane, fucking John Aston, Stuart Panken, Bubba Smith's in it, Phyllis Diller, holy shit, Rip Taylor, holy Christ,

they're breaking everybody out for this one. Shelly Winters, holy fuck. Then he's in also The Mouth of Madness, 1994 drama, fantasy, horror. Have you seen this? Yeah, in The Mouth of Madness? Wow, interesting. It's an insurance investigator begins discovering that the impact a horror writer's books have on his fans is more than inspirational.

This stars a bunch of people. Charlton Heston's in it. Yeah, but what's the old man's name that that's the main character? Fuck Sam Neill David were Warner Jurgen prox now Julie Carmen John Glover Who I recognize Peter Jason who I definitely recognize he he's also in Deadwood He plays con the guy who likes big women with fat tits. Oh, he plays that guy in Deadwood I forget the main character name, but he's a he's a Jerry's grandma and he's in he's in a lot of shit Jerry's grandma from Seinfeld's in this oh, Nana. Yeah

She's the one that's the the lady at the hotel. I'm looking Marvin Scott reporter one guy's an ax murder I don't know. I don't know who could have Character I remember the movie Tremendously because there's a really horrific part in the movie where he's driving down the road and his eyes he's really tired obviously and there's a kid riding a bike and rides next to him because they're going the same direction and It's like an he looks next to him and it's like he looks next to him and it's like a demon like an old man it's the scariest like Twilight

I've ever seen in any movie it's it gave me nightmares and it's just a kid riding by it's so scary. Plus you were like fucking 13 years old at that point yeah definitely it's fucked up not like you were like seven so it must have been real fucked up it was super fucked up. Some things like you were like seven, so it must have been real fucked up. It was super fucked up. They say some things when you're like seven, some shit's not even scary. I was terrified of Willy Wonka when I was six. I saw it on my own before I knew it was a kids movie. No one explained like, oh, this is a fun kids movie.

I just saw this movie and I was like, I know that gene, I recognized Gene Wilder, so I watched it. I was horrified. I thought he was the bad guy I thought there was a horror movie about a guy who fucking kills children because he's murdering children. This is crazy shit Fucking insane. It's like seven for kids. Yeah, it's like kids for kids But no he he fucking I remember then later on, kids were like, I love Willy Wonka. And I was like, yeah, Willy Wonka's great.

Like I didn't have the heart to tell anyone I was scared of it and didn't watch it the right way. Next season Rosa Roth, which is a, looks like a foreign TV show because it's on from 94 to 2013. Jesus. And Rosa Roth is a no nonsense police commissioner stationed in Berlin. It's a German TV show Yeah, it's at 919 94 to 2094

2013 who has a small team of operatives. She trusts with her life. Whatever happens on the field It takes a toll on them personally as well. It sounds like 24 or some shit He also it's starring a bunch of Germans. That's his final acting role. As this goes on now through the late 90s, most of his friends abandon him because he's a complete asshole. And a lot of it has to do with the fact that he's constantly borrowing money from everybody and never paying them back. Rona said, who we know now as his sister said he was flat broke He could make money like you wouldn't believe but he spent it like water women and drugs

Squeaking out the rent borrowing money from people none of his friends ever wanted anything to do with him once they got a good dose of him Yep in 2004 he went to his sister's office in Santa Monica and sat outside on a concrete flowerbed Yeah, just like sitting outside waiting for his mom Yeah around 8 in the morning rona looked out the window and saw him sitting out there just sitting and sitting this wasn't the first Time he'd done this he just likes to sit and rona wondered what the hell was going on with him this time She said I was afraid to go downstairs because I was afraid he was going to follow me back up. Yeah, or ask for money. No, Rona never wanted to introduce him to co-workers because he might say something to embarrass her because he says crazy shit and does crazy shit.

He was the kind of guy who would say or do whatever he wanted, whomever he wanted. He might make a racial slur at somebody in her office or something you never know. So years earlier she Rona said she had been told she might not be Norbert's sister and so there was that that's part of it too. So eventually she walked downstairs when he saw her he told her in German come here and sit for a few minutes. So she sat next to him and he told her that he has prostate cancer and he's gonna die very soon. Oh Boy, and then March 10th 2010 he dies. So what you know Wow, he's didn't have much time left He was in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico Nobody knows where the why the fuck he was down there or they don't even know where he's buried

They think he might be buried somewhere in Mexico. They have no idea. Like a popper's grave? No clue. Might have been thrown in a Mexican hole in the ground for all we know. Oh my God. She said she got a call a month after it happened from a friend of his saying that he was dead. Holy shit.

Before he died, he instructed this guy to deliver the message one month after his death to his sister. Okay. Will deliver this message one month after his death to his sister. Okay. We'll deliver this message and that is, Touche. Wait a month and tell my sister that. Tell her that she's better than me.

She wins. I'm dead. There you go. That's pretty fucking funny. We'll deliver his final words to the sister. Yeah, yeah, go Deadwood again. Alright, fine. It's real simple, just touche. Alright then. Do I have to say it all gay in French like that or can I say touchey? Alright, fine.

Touchey. Say toucher. Say touchy. I don't fucking know. Write it down and hand it to him. Who delivered the last words to the sister? That's so funny. I love that. What a great opening scene.

So one of his oldest friends, Walter Staudinger, said that Norbert, quote, was not happy when somebody liked him. He lived to rile people up and make them mad. What is that about? He's a dick. He's just a dick. He's like a social media

personality. He's just a fucking asshole. He's click bait. So when the Krosky guy decided to begin research for the documentary, his whereabouts were unknown, Krosky ended up finding Nor Wilhelm in LA, but had to fly out three times before getting Wilhelm to agree to film with him. The filmmaker said he had giant mood swings.

He could be very friendly, and in the same moment he could be disgusting. Wow. The filmmaker emailed Michael C. Gross from Ghostbusters and he said, almost the exact same quote from the book. He said, I can only say he was a crude bigoted asshole. He's gross. He hates him, everybody hates him.

Nordberg's friends since he were Norbert's friends since he was they were teens named Manfred who also appeared in the documentary seemed to think that Wilhelm's time in prison had a strong effect on him. This guy said that Norbert loved the outdoors and hated to be locked in. When he got out and came to the US, Norbert got a convertible so he could feel the open air when he drove this guy said that he and Norbert would fight because of Norbert's drug use This Manfred guy said he kicked him out of the house once because of it Norbert apologized

He said quote then he got mad at me, and I got mad at him, but we were friends So we made up again. He'll always be my friend He said that they would you know that would fight all the fucking time though. Another woman, Patricia Nell Warren, who's the author and journalist known for The Front Runner, which is a book, it's a gay love story, I suppose the book is, wrote an essay about him and in it explained that many of his friendships

were more than that, but he wasn't the type of guy to settle down at all. She said privately if he talked about his sex life, Norbert made it clear that the Beatle Boxer had taken on all contenders regardless of gender. Didn't give a fuck. But we never saw Norbert with girlfriends or boyfriends in tow. He seemed to be the perennial loner. After all, he'd already been out as the ultimate renegade, so tattooing the word bisexual on his forehead

was not something he'd rush into at this late date. Didn't want everybody to know about it. Besides being homophobic Hollywood of the 90s with its panics about AIDS deaths, was not a place where open gayness would be rewarded. And that's true, if you're openly gay, you better be openly gay, and that's what you're playing in every fucking movie.

You're gonna go, hi, when you walk into every room, period. So he said, as a weed-smoking bisexual strong man, and a time before that was acceptable by mainstream standards, right now you'd be the most popular guy on Instagram. A weed-smoking bisexual fucking weightlifter, you'd be the crushing it on Instagram. A weed smoking bisexual fucking weightlifter? You'd be the crushing it on there.

Yeah, he would... Holy shit. The toughest man alive, and he sucks dicks? Walk out. And he sucks dicks and smokes weed? Holy fuck. So maybe it was the refusal of his own mother to talk to him, pushed him to distrust and hate other people. Or maybe he was just an asshole possible that's possible so uh...

yeah he's uh... a bit of a mess one of his friends here wally kohler a friend from the days when they were young living in the uh... saint paulie quarter of the city in the red light district yeah he painted norbert as jesus with long flowing blonde hair below a gold crown the painting shows the devastated prince looking at his devastated world. He said it's a broken prince. He's standing before his demise.

Can't get enough of old Wilhelm Norbert von Homburg Group A? Well, get yourself a Ghostbusters 6, a Ghostbusters iPhone case. What? With Vigo painting on it. They have Ghostbusters iPhone cases with Vigo on it. With the painting on it. $6.76 on eBay right now. Also, the Werner Herzog movie that he starred in in 1977. It's on video, a first edition from 1990 on VHS, $99.95 for that.

Give that $100 tape and then try and find something to play on. Yeah, good luck. And then finally a Wilhelm von Homburg 8x10 headshot from the Ghostbusters 2 era, $2.06. That's a deal. Not bad at all. We should get some merch for him. And there you go, everyone. That is Wilhelm Von Homburg Norbert group a who knew who the fuck knew like I said

I didn't know when they said he was an asshole and a boxer and a wrestler I'm like, I wonder if he ever got arrested. So then I looked him up. I was like, oh my god This guy's a mess an actual Nazi shit. He's an actual Nazi. So there you go everybody. There he is There's a Nazi for you. I think that might be our first actual Nazi. Besides half the UFC fighters who just don't admit it openly. But actual, stated Nazi. So there that. Oh no, we did have the one guy who had a swastika tattoo on him.

I mean, yeah, but he wasn't a Nazi. Was it Brandon Selig? He's not an actual, he was a Neo. No, right, this guy was born inig. He's not an actual no this guy born in it Yeah, he was born and yeah born into Nazism there So if you like the show give a review on whatever app you're listening on doesn't matter what it is Give five stars head over to shut up and give me murder comm sure we are October 30th have the virtual live show for small-town murder Anywhere in the world with an internet connection. You're welcome to get this thing

It's available for two weeks after as well Murder anywhere in the world with an internet connection. You're welcome to get this thing. It's available for two weeks after as well. So you can buy it later. You can buy it that day and watch it. You can buy it now when it'll pop up. Do all that shit. You can watch it as many times as you want. So enjoy that. Come hang out with us. Shut up and give me murder.com. Patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you get all of the bonus material. Five dollars a month or above gets you all the Patreon for Crime and Sports for Small Town Murder, all that good shit and hundreds of back episodes,

new ones every other week. This week for Crime and Sports, which you get obviously, we're gonna talk about the Vince McMahon documentary. Let's go. Not the wrestling parts, the rest of the parts. Just the gross stuff. Especially one particular line that he said that will I'll never forget as long as I live.

It should haunt him forever. It should haunt everybody who said that's crazy and for anybody to defend that never mind we'll get into it. Then for small town murder we're going to talk about the second part of the Ted Bundy psychological examination from 1976 trying to find out if Ted's a violent person or not. Spoiler alert. He he is so there you go patreon.com Crime and sports do that keep coming and you get a shout out at the end of the show right fucking now Jimmy Hit me with the names of the most fantastic sons of bitches who keep this show flowing hit me with them right now

This was executive producer Jordan Bennett and Gary Howard. Thank you both. Hey, thank you now. This week's executive producer, Jordan Bennett and Gary Howard. Thank you both so much. Hey, thank you, Jordan. We appreciate you guys. You guys are the best. Other producers this week are Peyton Meadows, Janice Ill, Cody Leversey, Stephen Fitzsimmons. I think it's just Steve Fitzsimmons.

P-I-A-P-T-K. I'm not sure what that stands for. I'm sure it's an acronym for something. Kelsey Insaner. Oh. It's got to be Insaner. I'm Insaner than you. Kelsey is Insaner. No, I'm Insaner. I don't's got to be in so I'm insane or than you Kelsey is insane. No, I'm insane or I don't believe you

She got a birth certificate for it crystal match Oates Courtney Hoffman, Lena Lena Lena, maybe Mills Jeff Adamski Adamski Paula Reynolds Linda would know last name Lacey Wells, Brandon Lyons, Amanda Labreck. Yeah, William would know last name, Eric Olson, Ada Sapko, Steven Perl, Aaron Jensen, Britt would know last name, Renee would know last name, Elizabeth Aquino, Cat would know last name, Richard Gagnon, Gagnon, I don't know, Gagging on. Yeah, that name always fucks me up.

It's fucked. It's so brutal. As comedians, we just want to say Gagging fucks me up. It's fucked. It's so brutal. As comedians, we just want to say Gaggonon it, and that's not how we're... And his name is Richard. It's probably not his real name. I'm proud it's Dick Gaggonon. I'm sure it's not that. Gwendolyn Chambers, Chelsea Headley, Headley, Lauren Thorpe, Brian Stoneburner, Rachel Kibbe,

Donna Strayley, Strayley, Strayley, Strayley, bro. Strayley. Veronica Mendoza. Amber with no last name. Boobray. Megan? Megan Icarino. Icarino. Icarumba? Icarumba. Mary with no last name. Linda DuPois. DuPois? DuPois. Lauren. Lauren with no last name. Amanda with no last name, Jamie Thomas probably, it might be Tomes, Alexandra Awada, Bethany Marantos, Courtney Acevedo, Sphinx with no last name, Russell Moore, Aluvion, amen, I think that's Minnesota, Jacob Berlin, Kerry with no last name, Dorothy Phillips, Michelle Jarvis, Ash F, Artzy Blue Eyes, Jeffrey Scott DeGroote, Matthew Howard, Sarah Saunders, Lucky Olson, Toby with no last name, Kristen Larson, Leah G, Sean Coltrane,

Abby Shalaby, Shabalobo. Shabal not going to work here anymore. Shabal not going to work here. Victor Cole, a TJ Askren, Liz with no last name, Becca Bolan, Joey Rediger, Radeger, Radeger, Tara Brock, Jolene Willey, Wiley maybe, Wild perhaps, Eli with no last name, Weezy Lamb, Laura Moore, Pamela Marsh, Danielle Corcoran, Michelle Wilson, Leslie with no last name, Tasha Arthur, Anthony Nielsen, Kerry Mullins, and Fenster Mocker. Laurie, Laurie Shellstad, Shellstad, Riley Filner, Aaron Thornton, Bad Taste, I know that one, Joe Perry, Don D,

Joe Perry, Aerosmith guitarist, Joe Perry's giving us money now? Jill Perry, his wife, or daughter possibly. Yeah, good. Earl's daughter, Jenny Shie good. Spend some of that. Earl's daughter, Jenny Shy. Give me some of that Janey's got a gun money. Let's go. I'll go crazy.

Constance Ellen, Carmen Rusnak, Rue Snack, Rue Snack, Josh Chastain, Lauren Davies, Ashley Gero, Grox perhaps, it's probably Gero, Sophia Smith, Janelle R, Douglas Heckert, Clara Alley perhaps, Drew McCarson perhaps, Big Jer, Hey Sue Spirada, Erica with no last name, Susan Walker, Archana Arachna, Renee Dominguez, Rachel with no last name, Tyler Espinosa, Michael Watts, Dennis Falk, Dane Thompson, Stephanie Tools, Lyra Smith, Cassandra Kaufman Rapini, Katie Rustman, Roostman, Taylor with no last name, Leia, this person's real name is Leia, likely named after the princess. Somebody had a fan. Right? Seth, Seth, Seth.

Someone's dad was at the theater. Yeah, big fan. Mr. Seth Shaken. Seth Shaken. Seth Shaken. Seth Shakanen. Or Bishop. One of those two people loves Princess Leia.

Tyler Baxey, Megan Bell, Nomowski, Hot Vapor, Melanie McGarva, Kevin Ives, Adam Smiley, Jeffrey Pope, Amanda Kunkel, Kunkel probably, Vanessa Shado, Shadow perhaps, Kayla Sasser, Kara Anne Jeff, Fullmetal, Lack15, Metal Lack. Metal Lack. I don't know what we're doing there. I don't know what the whole point of that is. I don't know where we are right now. All right, Julie Putney, Heather White, Wine.

Oh, Heather Wine, Christina Sanfilippo, no name, oh, no name, no first or last name at all, James. Not even first. Kelly would know last name though. Liss would know last name. Mandy Amendinger, Amendinger. Amanda Armendinger, that's it. Elvira Irwin, Ryan Mantle, Hanzo Beefton, probably not.

Kevin Hozier, like the singer that we used to know them. Taylor Christensen, Chelsea Slack, Brandon would know last name, Joseph Jarrell, Christopher Mountcastle, Andrea Ranka, Jarvis Wrinkle, okay, Addison Teague, you, that's who it is, Kevin Colfer, Ramona Algerian, you Algerian, Jessica, you, Steven Clark, or Cook rather, you, Erica Ponewa, Jesse Bruner, and Crystal, she's not a stripper, although there's nothing wrong with that. Thank you all so much,

and all of our patrons, you guys are the best. Thank you, everybody. You're fantastic, wonderful bastards. We appreciate the shit out of all that you do for us, honestly, you keep this show going. Thank you for doing that. You're the best. Thank you for being there for us.

If you want to follow us on social media, real easy to do. By the way, there's, you can go to Shut Up and Give Me Murder, drop down menu. You can follow Crime and Sports, at Crime and Sports, Sports on wherever the hell you follow shit. Keep doing that. Keep coming back and seeing us and live from the Crime and Sports studios. We will see you next week. If you like crime and sports, you can listen early and ad free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

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