Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - “A How-To Guide For Ditching The Single Life & Staying Married.” - With @dearyoungmarriedcouple

Episode Date: February 17, 2023

Dear Spillover Listener, Whether you're young and newly married, about to be married, or just young at heart and looking for love — Alex Clark is gifting you TWO hours of free Christian couple's counseling this Valentine’s Day week with highly requested @dearyoungmarriedcouple! Adam and Karissa King cover everything from how to cultivate sexual intimacy after having a baby to how couples can avoid the "roommate stage." They also answer if Christians should get prenups, whether there are ...

Are you a young married couple newly engaged or maybe you and your spouse have been married for a while, but you still consider yourselves young at heart? Are there days when you struggle to like your spouse, when you feel like you argue about the same things over and over again? Or are you trying to build back trust that was broken? Maybe you just got married or you're about to. And you want to know what foundations to build your marriage on so that you don't find yourselves ever lacking passion or or even struggling to be on the same page once you have kids. My guess this week, who, after marrying in 2008, became certified marriage counselors, professors, and psychologists, started a Christian counseling team together in 2011.

Together, they have helped countless couples avoid divorce lawyers fall deeper into love and become intimately connected all through a biblical lens. Whether you're in a healthy or unhealthy marriage, engagement, or dating relationship, every aspect of your life will be affected by that union. So this Valentine's Day week, I wanted to interview experts that could help my married and almost married listeners strengthen their relationships, especially because now more than ever, marriage is one of our biggest defenses in the culture where we fight. I ask cute servatives what questions they would love to ask a marriage counselor.

I got thousands of questions submitted. Many of them I will ask my guest today. Also, I cannot recommend this podcast enough for you to listen to or watch with your significant other. So if you're listening right now or you're watching and you want to pause it and grab her or grab him and say, we got to dive into this with one another. That's totally fine. Oh, wait. Okay, I'm not that patient.

It is my pleasure to introduce you to Adam and Carissa King, founders of Dear Young Married Couple and hosts of the Dear Young Married Couple podcast on The Spillover. I mean, obviously, Adam and Chris, I have to start with how you guys met, how long you've been married, we have to establish all of that stuff first. Of course. Okay. Let's do it. Who wants to take over telling it? Ladies first. All right. So May will be 15 years of marriage, together 17 years. And we met as kids. We were in Bible quizzing together. So we'll slow this down. So Bible quizzing for people that don't know is a, you memorize a whole bunch of verses and then you get a whole bunch of kids together. And then they asked them questions. And you can actually interrupt questions and finish the question and answer the question. It was kind of like math leads on mean girls,

but with scripture. Yes. Right? Like you buzz in with the answer to finish the verse. I think I kind of remember this growing up. Yes. There you go. So it's insane. So she like is from a family of Bible quiz. They're super good. I'm from a family of musicians. Okay. So way different, right? So I was like going to join Bible quizzing that year. We met. I didn't actually know her. her, but her team crushed my team. Wasn't even nice. Annihilated. And what's hilarious is that my mom has a home video of me, like, walking past her when we were defeated.

And I didn't even shake her hand. I was just like, no. Oh. This, like, blonde hair girl just totally annihilated our team. And I did not like that. So, yeah, that was our first introduction. No prisoners. Okay.

So then how, if that was your first introduction, how did that lead into eventually dating each other? Yeah. So my family moved to Sacramento, which is where he grew up and where we live now. And I thought he was pretty cute. And we ended up connecting and had a lot of common interests. And we just really wanted to help people. Like we didn't know it was going to be marriage ministry. And, you know. So what did you think at first? Like maybe you guys were called to go into ministry as a couple. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. We did a lot of youth ministry, music ministry. And then I became a therapist. And a lot of people started asking us to do marriage retreats. Well, at first they were asking me. And I was like, babe, you're going to do it with me? And I said, no. Well, how long had you guys been married when people started asking you to host retreats?

Like two or three years. Yeah. Did that shock you? Were you like, we're not qualified to do this? Yes. Why do you feel like people were drawn to wanting you guys to be the ones to host it? That's a really good question. I think, well, they knew that she was already working.

with a lot of couples at that time, being a therapist. But it did take me off guard because I'm not a therapist. I'm a life coach. Now I've worked with lots of couples. But at that point, I was just like, I can kind of get by in a marriage. Like, we have a great relationship, but I'm not ready to tell people how they should do their relationship. And so then how did you end up getting the confidence, like, okay, I'm ready to jump into this with you? Oh, good question. Well, at this point, I had been studying philosophy for a long time and got my degrees in philosophy and apologetics. And I loved actually some of the things that she was studying. And I was like, I was seeing how some of that intersected.

And she asked me one time to come and do a retreat with her. And she's like, oh, that's all right. I'll give you some stuff to read. And we'll just do it together and just follow my lead. I'm like, okay. So we did it. And it went really, really well. I just tried to flow with her.

and it just worked out. And then ever since, I think the passion for people and helping people overtook my insecurities of stepping into that space. And so dear young married couple has now just grown into this explosive. It's a whole brand because you're doing a podcast, correct? You're doing retreats. You have social media presence. You're also, you're counseling real married couples. Are you also doing premarital counseling or everybody is newly married?

We do premarital counseling as well. Some of our favorite, actually. It's fun, right? Because they come in as like we compare it like a little tree sapling compared to a big oak tree, these couples that come in that have been married for 20, 30, 40 years and they're needing a lot of help. They have roots, right? But they also have these knots in their branches and in their and it's a little bit different working with that little tree sapling that we get to do a lot more cultivation and equipping.

It's fun. How self-aware are the engaged, couples when they come to you for premarital counseling. Like, are they like, we are so good, we're so ready to crush this because we have no issues. Or usually are they like, okay, we know that these two or three things are going to be difficult in our marriage. How can we prepare?

Like, what is it like usually? I would say way more with like, we love each other. This is going to be amazing. It's going to be perfect. I can't see anything wrong with this person. We look at their assessments for their, what we call their RCG score. That's rose colored glasses. Oh, that's cute.

Okay. And so typically they have their RCGs on, their rose-colored glasses, they think they have no issues. And then what are the top things that you find? These are probably for a Christian young couple. These are going to be things that you guys have issues with. Is it theology? Is it finances? Is it sex? So usually they have really high scores when it comes to theology, spiritual, you know, focus, mission, their values. They're really aligned. And that's great because that's the foundation, right? But their communication and conflict resolution scores are really low. Finances, sex and intimacy, it just depends on their upbringing, how open and vulnerable they are around discussions in those areas. But really, it's those communication and conflict resolution scores.

Yep. Amazing. Okay. So could you talk about, at least for you each, what was the moment like for each of you when you knew I want to marry that person? Hmm. That was, okay, so the moment, I actually remember the moment. I was leaving a camp, a youth camp, and we had been dating for three months, and my family was leaving to go on the missions field. And so I was going to be gone for, she had just moved to my hometown.

We had been kind of flirting and stuff. She had just moved, and I was now moving away. That was my forever home, and now I was moving away for a year to be just traveling. And I remember the day that she came out to meet me and said, you know, kind of my farewell. And I remember her being, like, she got up super early because her hair was all done. And she was all, like, pretty. And I come out, like, I probably still had bed hair, you know. And she's like, you know, like, I love you.

And she didn't say I love you. I don't think we were saying I love you yet. She's like, but she started crying. I'm like, oh, my word, she's going to miss me. This is incredible, you know. And then I drove away and I had that big lump of my throat. I'm like, I'm going to miss her too. I think I'm going to marry this person.

It was kind of that like, wow, okay. Do you remember that moment, Carissa? Man, I remember it so clearly. As he drove away, I was squeezing my best friend's hand. She was right there with me. She got up with me, so I didn't have to go out there and be alone when he left me. And I was just crying. I remember the sweater I had on is this blossom sweater pink.

No, no, it said lusty blossom. It said lusty blossom. No. Maybe I just didn't know it said that. But anyway. I remember it. I was squeezing my best friend's hand, and I was like, I love him. And so then was, did you know before that moment that you had wanted to marry him or after that?

That was the moment. That was the moment. So it's weird because kind of funny, you guys both in the same moment knew. Yeah. Is that typically how it is for couples? Or sometimes you could be on a totally different wavelength knowing you want to marry the other person? I see everything. It varies.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes people grow into that love. sometimes people know instantly like kind of we did. Sometimes it's almost love at first sight. I have heard of that and it has worked out. So I think it's all over the place.

I think it's when you really see those critical factors lining up like this is what makes us compatible and I'm willing to bet on that. So before I start going through all the submitted questions, and by the way, thousands, thousands. Wow. Who is an ideal candidate for marriage counseling? I love that question because people think that it's when people are on the brink of divorce or they have issues. They need to work out, you know. And it's not an ideal candidate for marriage counseling is somebody who wants a neutral third party that aligns with their values to speak into their lives.

So if you just want, you know, the Bible says in the multitude of counselors, there is safety. So if you're wanting an additional counselor, you might already have a friend, mentor, pastor. but if you want an additional counselor in your life, then you can get that. You don't have to have, quote, unquote, issues to have counseling. I like how you just said if you want to have somebody that you know is like-minded counseling you. So when we are shopping for therapists or counselors, should we be asking them things like, you know, what are your political views? What are your spiritual views? Things like that. I think that would be a really good idea.

Just because this person is going to be speaking into your life. So I think interviewing them a little bit is going to be a really good idea. Okay. Because not all counselors are created equal. Yeah, and they're supposed to be, you know, they're supposed to be neutral and they're not supposed to infringe on any, you know, political or spiritual boundary if they disagree with you. But, I mean, we're human. And so our values are going to come through in the way that we counsel. Exactly.

So what makes dear young married couple unique compared to other marriage counseling services? Hmm. Well, we are distinctly Christian. We do have non-Christian clients, but we love working with folks who are looking for just that, somebody who has a Christian voice and biblical values that align with theirs. So I think that's one part that makes us different. I like to say that we're biblically based and scientifically sound, which is really important because we don't distance ourselves. We're not afraid of the science. Right. Because, you know, God is in it. Yeah. But then at the same time, we want to be relevant with the Bible and we try to mesh those two. And I think a lot of people have insecurities when it comes to that.

Like, what is science against the Bible? Or should we trust what all this is happening over here? So we try to bring those two together and let those intersect. I fully get it. Sometimes it can be hard to talk your man into letting you have a little extra spending money, especially towards beauty products. Whether you're currently in the dating stage and discussing budget before getting engaged or you're married and you're bawling on a budget,

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Go to Nemeyskinkare.com and use code Alex Clark for 10% off today. That's n-I-M-I-Skincare.com With code Alex Clark or click the link in the show notes. Adam, how would you say culture defines true love and marriage versus how the Bible defines true love and marriage? Hmm. That's a really good question. I think that, culture says that true love is what makes me happy. And when I say happy, I'm not not in the old philosophical sense of euda media, but in the sense of like it brings me pleasure. That's why people think if I'm compatible enough, then I can just like marry this person and they're going to make me happy and they're not going to try to change me and we're all just going to, so like pleasure is

the ultimate sense. But if we go from a different perspective and saying, what is marriage? intended for from the biblical perspective, I see that as being making you holy, making you more full of virtue, creating the more complete human being. So if God is trying to make us capable of being rulers up in heaven, if we want to go to the Christian route, if he's trying to create us to be kings and priests worthy, then he has to train us here on earth. And what better way of training us is putting somebody that we love that can speak into our lives to help us to become a more excellent person. Absolutely. Do you think that premarital counseling should ideally happen before or after engagement? Sticky subject, Alex. I know. So we've actually talked with a lot of

pastors and mentors about this because they think, oh my goodness, if you put them in premarital counseling, you're making it official. That's how I feel. Right. But here's the deal. If you are in premarital counseling once you're already engaged, you're in timeline mode, then premarital counseling becomes a wedding checklist item. That's not what it's supposed to be. So this is not wedding prep. This is marriage prep. We really need to be preparing ourselves for marriage. And if we want to be fully focused on that and not making it like the next item underneath flowers and dress, then we really need to do that prior to engagement.

How do you convince the person you're dating, though, like, hey, let's go to premarital counseling. I guess that's the hardest part. When I think of past relationships I've been in, when the topic of marriage comes up, you know, is this something you're looking for seriously or whatever? I feel like that's where they all freak out. So I don't know. Is it like you have the conversation of, hey, we know we want to marry each other. But before we get engaged, let's just double check things. Yes.

So, okay, yeah, double checking things. But also, okay, so let's talk about like what is premarital counseling. I think that would really help to set the stage. Premonital counseling, we is really just helping people discover who they are and how to communicate those things. So what we're trying to do as premarital counselors is give them tools. You know, it's funny is that, you know, going into marriage, we felt very unequipped. We kind of had like, hey, you guys love each other.

Awesome. You know, have a great time. But it was only like, I don't know, a year later when we really started getting tools under our tool belts so that we can use, which are communication tools. What happens when I get angry? That's going to happen. What happens when I have a really hard subject that I really have a hard time talking about? And I'm worried about her reaction to it.

And I have this information I need to say or tell or ask. So sometimes people don't have those systems or that confidence to express themselves. So what premarital counselors would do is say, okay, how do you feel about this? Where are your values here? Here, here's a way that you could say this without offending them. Let's practice it, right? And so then we give them homework to actually put these tools in action before they're ever engaged in marriage. And we often tell them with premarital counseling, we either want to move them toward each other or away from each other.

We don't want anything stagnant. That's what I was wondering. How often do couples enter premarital counseling than actually break up, though? Yeah. Yeah. And we call that success, by the way. Really? Yeah.

Explain that to me. So if you go into premarital counseling wondering like, okay, I think I want to marry this person, but I just want to make sure. I want to make sure our values are aligned. I want to practice these tools and see if we are going to be, if we're going to build God's kingdom together the way that we're designed to be. And you realize that that's not going to happen. And you realize that before you're engaged and before you're married, you're avoiding a divorce. You're avoiding more heartache down the road. You're avoiding all these things that happen in 50% of marriages.

Right. I mean, how many years do people stay with each other when they know it's probably not going to work out? But they just don't have that deciding factor of like, hey, like, this is not probably the right person. Is marriage actually hard or is that just something to unhappy people say? Marriage is work for sure. Okay. But marriage is also fun. And marriage is an adventure.

And can adventures be challenging? Absolutely. But it can be all of the above. It doesn't have to be either or. I think it depends on your mindset. If you go into marriage thinking like this person is going to accept me and, you know, like that kind of societal thing, what they put on us. But if you go into marriage thinking like I'm going on a journey of adventuring to know and love this person and loving is giving. Yeah.

Remember there's a taking. That's not really love. Love is giving. So if I go into it, hey, look, I'm going to have to take responsibility from actions. I'm going to have to give love. I'm also going to have to forgive. I'm going to have to take influence. So if you know that that's going to happen and you're going to have to change some things,

I think marriage becomes a lot easier. But those changes that you make are never easy. So I have all of these submitted questions from Kut Servatives, which is what I call people that listen to the show. I have them broken down into sections of different categories. So we'll start with dating. and then we'll move into engaged, and then we'll go into sex and marriage and all that. Perfect.

So, okay, starting with dating. One of the first questions, how do you intentionally prepare for marriage when you are just dating? Yeah. So I think it starts with really understanding your own values. A lot of people say, like, oh, they don't understand me. They don't get me. But do you understand yourself? Ooh, fire, yes.

Yeah. So recognizing, like, what are my core values? Yeah, I might think all of these things are important, but what's the most important? And would it bother me if my spouse didn't align with these particular core values? So recognizing those core values is going to be crucial, understanding yourself. Could you just rattle off a few things that could be core values? Yes. Yeah. So honesty, integrity, spirituality, adventure could be a core value. So, like, adventure is one of our company's core values. I wouldn't say, adventure is one of my personal core values if I had to pick my top three, right? So, so yes, it's a value. But if, yeah, giving. But if someone valued adventure over integrity, that may not align well. Is something like fitness or something like that too superficial to be a core value or do things like that work? No, that's not, that's not superficial. I would say fitness is an outgrowth of a core value, though. Okay. Yeah, so the core value might be health. And that's great, right? But if health is in your top three and it's not in my top three, then we might have some conflict over where we put our money or where we spend our time.

Absolutely. And not all differences are deal breakers. True. Yeah, let's talk about that. What is a deal breaker versus what's the opposite of a deal breaker? Just a hurdle? Yeah. It's really just getting clear on here is you have a value here.

I have a value here. And these don't seem to be meshing. What are we going to do about it? And some couples are just like, I'm sorry, I'm not willing to move from this. Like, this is a core value. I want to be on the mission field for two years. I want to go serve time in Guammer, I don't know. And I'm not, you know, that is what we're going to.

I'm sorry, my career is way too important. I can't leave. That's core values. That's going to be a deal breaker. That's going to be a deal breaker. I just had a first date a few days ago. Congrats. Well, thank you.

But so we go on the first date and he, And he was very, I think probably my whole life, the most intentional guy I've ever been on a date with as far as very upfront with it. He knew exactly what his values were. And he was Catholic and I'm not. And so he brought up, he said, you know, I am really, really looking for a Catholic woman. And he said it is a non-negotiable for me. My kids have to be raised in the Catholic Church. And he said, now if she, let's say she is Protestant and she's not Catholic, he said, I could maybe deal with that.

but she has to be okay then with me saying my kids are being raised in the Catholic Church. And that's where I disagreed. So then we knew, and he was so nice, so respectful. But then we left the date on, you know, good luck. We didn't just stop the date there. I mean, we talked about a myriad of other things. But I think we both knew this isn't going to go anywhere for us because that was his non-negotiable. And then that was a non-negotiable for me.

Perfect example. And we were very kind and respectful and that was it. Love that. But I loved how at that date, though, he was up first. with what he was looking for, I was up front. And I think too many people, they tiptoe or egg shell around on a first date of what we are looking for because we're afraid of putting too much pressure on somebody that it's just a first date.

Don't bring up the hard topics. Would you agree or disagree with that? Absolutely agree with your perspective. Yeah. One thing we like to say is tackle the taboos. That is, and even for married couples, a lot of married couples tiptoe around difficult subjects. Yes, because these these patterns.

patterns continue on. Yeah. And that's what we're talking about tools, like teaching people tools, how to talk about these things. But a lot of couples avoid huge things in their marriage. I had just, okay, so I had a client just recently. She's been married for probably like 25 years.

And she, he had been, had infidelity, but they had never talked about it. It was kind of like, like, like happened. and then everything blew up and then we just kind of go on without talking about it. And of course, that pain is going to continue on. Resentment.

That's an extreme example. But there's a lot of things that are not as extreme, but just as damaging. You know, resentment is not easy to deal with and just for people to know it. Resentment is just an ongoing negative feeling toward an event or character trait or a person. So if you have that really negative feeling

always around this issue, you need to tackle it and just bring it up and talk very openly. And that will save you so much heartache. So important. Do you think things like location, like if you're dating long distance or a big age gap, do those things matter? They matter. Are they deal breakers? No, not necessarily.

Okay. Somebody asked that, does age matter? Should you wait until after a college to get married or is it okay to get married while you're still a student? Should we speak from experience? Oh, were you guys students? Well, I was 19 and he was 21 and we were in college together. Perfect. And we loved it.

It really helped us focus our energy because when you're dating and engaged and you're in school and you're in separate places and you have a lot of, you know, really split focus areas. And it was really cool for us to be able to join forces and sit shoulder to shoulder on our laptops and do our homework together. I mean, yeah, we made a life out of it. It was so funny when we moved and we got married, we moved. We were somewhere for a while. I went back to school later on in life. But then when we moved to Sacramento, we actually moved in with my brother-in-law, but her sister. They were married.

And it was hilarious. We called it the dorms. She was studying to be, my sister-in-law was studying to be a schoolteacher. He was studying to be a lawyer. And now they're in their careers. And it was hilarious. It was fun. We went to coffee shops almost.

every night. It was dorm life, but married and together, it was a great time. I like that. What are the top questions you should ask yourself and also your significant other before getting engaged? Mm, yeah. So first, I would ask, do I know what other people think about this person? Because sometimes we get so blinded by our own perspectives of somebody that we're not willing to listen to what other people have to say. Does other people's input matter the most, not necessarily, but it matters. And we ought to consider other people's perspectives. Yeah. And a multitude of counselors' safety. Yeah. And I think being honest and just open, because it really does open you up for heartache. If you really like this person and they're,

you know, and you're not really sure, you don't want to hear a no from someone else. You know, I don't see this person for you. They're not great. So yeah, I do think it does help to go out and ask. Yeah. How can somebody overcome commitment issues if they know, okay, ideally I do want to get married and have kids someday, but the idea of how do I know that they're the right person, being strapped to that person for the rest of my life, what if I made a mistake? What if there's something better out there? Or, you know, I am very afraid of a long lasting commitment in a marriage because my parents grew up with significant marriage issues. How does somebody overcome those? Yeah. So what you just said actually is a little hint there that if you have commitment issues, it often stems from early childhood experiences, whether that's with your own parents or something else. It could be, you know, a marriage issue that you observed, but it could also be something unrelated to marriage at the surface. So if it could be trauma, it could be just financial heartache, just something that says caution. And you might need a process through that and some individual counseling. prior to reconsidering commitment. All right. So full disclosure, I was completely against counseling. Really?

Yes. Because, you know, you have this stigma, like, only broken people go to counseling. You know, like, why would I go? Like, that's not what a guy does. Come on. Serious? And I was, we were married at this time. Krista was in her, she was almost a therapist.

And she's like, I have to go to get my licensure in California. you have to get 250 hours of counseling. No, no, not that much. You have to have several hours of your own counseling depending on which program. A good amount of counseling. So she's like, hey, why didn't you come? I was like, no, I'm good. She's like, no, you should come.

Then she's like, come. Yeah. So I went and I was like, wow, this is amazing just to have somebody. And it's not just sit on my couch and tell me about your life. You got to think this person is intelligent. They care for you. they care for people. That's why they're in this profession. And they're equipped with tools and insights. And they've seen hundreds and hundreds of other people before you and seen patterns.

So when you express a pattern, they say, I've seen this a hundred times. I know where this is going. This could end up to be a problem here. Let me help you adjust your trajectory there a little bit to just make your life down here a lot more successful. And that's what I found. I found myself talking about things and getting super, I cried and not even realized. it was there. I was like, oh my word. Like, this is working. But I would never have known if I wouldn't have been open and really took and taken Chris's influence there. Yeah. Do you think that there is a certain amount of time, okay, let me rephrase this. How long should it take the average person to know if they love someone? Like if it's been a year or longer and you still haven't said I

love you or you're unsure, is that a red flag? Is it red flag if you say it after a week? Is there no timeline? It's different for everybody, you know? Yeah, it is different for everybody. That's for sure. If you've been dating someone for a year and you still don't know if you love them, I think that's at least a yellow flag. Like, why not? Why don't you know? What are the things that are getting in the way? Let's process that a bit, you know? So if it's been a week and you're saying, I love you, you might know, but if you're already communicating that you love the person, that might be a little hasty. So maybe it's good, even if you know right away. You know, it's love at first sight. It's one of those rare occasions. And you know it might be best to wait on that feeling.

Yeah, absolutely, because you have a lot to learn. So we call it the dating ladder. On one side of the ladder, you have to know. And on the other side of the ladder, you have to love. And if the way that you know or how much you know about somebody is way down here at the bottom rung of the ladder and the way you're loving or showing affection is way at the top of the ladder, that ladder is probably going to fall because it's out of bed. And so you want to climb up that ladder in a way that really values the other side.

So if how much I know about this person, if all I know is their name and their physical appearance, then probably the way that I show love is by a compliment or a smile or a chat. That's not going to be, you know, expressing it with a makeout session and a bunch of I love yous from day one. Yeah, that's a really good analogy, I think. Just to like tag in with that, there is a quote by Tim Keller who says, to be loved but not known is superficial. Like that's just a one-night stand. You know, we're going in, we're loving, but we're not, we don't know anything about each other.

And that's really not love. But to be fully known and not loved, that's our greatest fear. A lot of people have that with abandonment. My father left me. You know, like my boyfriend just left me, dumped me. whatever it is. A lot of people have those hurts. So that's our greatest fear. That's why we don't want to open up and be vulnerable because we don't want to be hurt again. But to be known and loved, truly known and fully loved is our greatest desire. And it's a lot like being loved by God.

Absolutely. Yes. If love is not just a feeling, but also a choice, how should that affect the way we date? Mm-hmm. I like that. So marriage and the purpose for marriage, and the examples of marriage, that's all over Scripture. Okay, we see marriage itself is a parallel of God's relationship with us. Okay. Dating? We don't get a whole lot of instruction in Scripture about dating. Pick your favorite Bible story on dating.

Right. We don't get a whole lot of instruction. So when we ask about, like, what's the purpose of dating or how can we date with marriage in mind or God's plan in mind, we need to focus on marriage as the potential outcome? Now, that doesn't mean that all dating experiences are going to end in marriage. You can have a successful dating experience. I mean, much like your first date, right? It's not like you dated this guy for a long time.

Yeah. But a first date that was respectful and honoring and a good experience with marriage as the aim. I mean, you guys were talking about marriage stuff in that first date. Yes. So intentionality is key and direct communication is key when you're dating someone with marriage in mind. How much fighting is too much? And then on the opposite end of that, is there such a thing as not enough fighting in a relationship? Yes. Oh, man. We could probably take the whole episode on just this.

Candy stick. Yeah. Well, okay, so studies show that it's not the amount of arguments that you get in that determine your happiness. But it's how you handle them. So what we're looking for for really dynamic good relationships, you guys should be disagreeing. So fighting and arguing are two different things. Okay, so let's just talk about like disagreeing. That should happen all the time, especially at the beginning because we're completely different. So, but that resentment piece is crucial here. If you guys get into an argument and then that negative feeling carries on for day, two days, three days, four days, which happens all the time with couples and they're not fixing it, then they need to relook at like, hey, how can we do better a job at,

just repairing. Repair is key. We have to learn how to repair and repair well. And my sorry looks very different than her sorry. So we have to get on the same page and set our expectations. By the way, a really good thing to remember here is that frustration is the result of unmet or uncommunicated expectations. So if my sorry and my mind looks different than her sorry, Well, if, oh, my bad. You know, like, that could be my sorry. That could be what I grew up with. But if her sorry looks like, oh, baby, I'm so sorry.

I know you're hurt and I could have said that so much better. You know, I do all that. Those are completely different wavelengths. But she could be expecting that and I could be expecting this. And then there's tons of frustration. So getting down just on that level like, okay, what does your sorry look like? getting curious and asking those questions, well, I grew up like this, you grew up like this, how would you like it? I want to repair better with you because we are going to have disagreements.

I'm learning to love you and I'm learning to know you. And so help me help you. Give me your strategy. Give me your recipe. Do people really look for their problem parent while dating? That's a tendency. It's a subconscious tendency. It doesn't mean that everyone does that. But we do find it comes from a theory called attachment. And so we find usually these unmet needs that we had in childhood, we're looking for someone to fill those gaps. And in doing so, we find a lot of parallels between that person and one or both of our parents or a caregiver. Yeah. If you talk to us for very long, we'll start telling you books to read. read. So if you want to know. That's great. Yeah, here we go. Getting the Love You Want by Harville Hendricks. That's a fabulous book to kind of help you understand what you need to marriage, what you're going to look for subconsciously in a mate. And that's, by the way, really good reason for you to grow while you're single. Okay. Go to counseling. Rattin that down. Yeah. Well, go to counseling.

Sort out like your childhood. Unpack the baggage. Take the bricks out of your backpack. You know, doing all that pre-work, we like to say that, that, you know, water finds its equal. You know, it'll flow downhill until it finds its equal. So if you want a spouse that is an incredible world changer, you have to become a world changer. They have to be able to spot that in you. And that's where we build from. So doing that pre-work now is incredible and it's very needed and important. Okay, I'm going to go to like a lighthearted, well, sort of question.

and then two harder ones before moving into engagement. All right. How should you navigate different standards of hygiene while dating? You really like this person. They are totally on the same wavelength spiritually. They love Jesus. They love you like Jesus loves you. All of the good things.

You line up, but man, they do not do a tongue scrape in the morning or whatever it is. How do you deal with that? In the dating stage, because it's not your husband to be like, hey, this bothers me, you know? Right. Yeah, that's a good question. It is. You may not be as direct when you're dating. Yes.

But you can ask it in the form of a question so you can say, hey, what are your expectations when it comes to hygiene? And it could just be something like you could be asking about me and then I might give my input about you. But if you can't be direct and you feel like you're tiptoeing and you're going to hurt their feelings so bad, if you ask a question in a very mature conversation, you're not making fun of them. If you feel like you're going to hurt their feelings in that, then you guys might not be

ready to engage in further relationships. So for me, I feel like that hygiene is obvious, but I am married to a nose. So I've grown up, you know, in a big family. So maybe hygiene wasn't super important. But over 15 years, I've learned that that's important. So I would think if this person's interested in you and they, you could see a life with this person, they're probably just oblivious to the fact that they stink and they need cologne. So finding maybe a creative way, like, hey, get them Cologne.

Like a Valentine's Day gift, which is perfect for this week. I think that that's a fabulous idea. Yeah, get them some Cologne. Like, you know, this really turns me on to smell this on you. This would be great to wear every time I see you. So it's almost like a way you phrase it. Like, oh my gosh, I smelled this the other day walking to the department store and like, I just thought this was the sexiest smell. So I had to get it for you.

You can do that. That's not wrong. totally fine and flirty and fun. But don't make that be a replacement for direct communication. Good. Because that can be kind of passive-aggressive if it's not supplemented with the direct communication. I love it. I love this with you guys.

I'm learning so much already. Okay. Now this two serious questions. Could you talk about ACE trauma scores and why it is so important to know not only your own ACE score, but your partners? And I know that a lot of my listeners are like, what the heck is an ACE trauma score? Yes. trauma score. So thank you brought that up. Yeah. So the ACE trauma score, this concept, it was a study that came out of a clinic that was for people who were trying to lose weight. And they measured a lot of like background factors. So childhood upbringing, whether they had, you know, been exposed to sexual abuse or physical abuse or if they had parents who divorced or if they wondered where they would sleep at night, if they had a parent who was an alcoholic or a drug addict. And so there was. just a number of factors, and they realized there were a lot of patterns that people who had a

hard time losing weight, usually they had higher scores, a greater number of these risk factors involved. So then people replicated that study in other contexts and took it outside of just weight loss, and they found that the higher your ACE trauma score, which was, you know, it's basically 10 criteria. You can look it up. We could probably give you a resource to link in the show notes if you want to. But out of these 10 criteria, if your trauma score is, you know, greater than even one, greater than one or two, you have high risk for a lot of things like diabetes, high cholesterol, heart problems, greater risk of divorce for yourself or other issues. So the ACE trauma score stopped there. They didn't do a lot of research on resilience. Like, how do we get out of that mode?

And so that's what the ACE trauma score doesn't show you is that resiliency matters a lot. And you can, even though your ACE trauma score might be three, four, five, or higher, you can actually mitigate some of those risk factors by equipping yourself. And you may not face the same issues. Yeah, I feel like the ACE trauma score test is like, it's very short. I mean, it's like 10 questions of what you were talking about. And so that's when she's saying if you have a score of one or two, that's even a little bit high because it is, it's a lot. The questions are difficult. The questions are things like sexual abuse or did you grow up feeling like you didn't know where you were going to get your next meal and things like that.

And so all of that contributes into your emotional makeup really as a human being and as an adult. So if you and your partner both take the ACE score test and one or both of you ends up having a high score on that, meaning they've endured high trauma or you have or both of you have, how can you take that info and use it to improve communication in your relationship? Yes. That's such a good question. Just simply taking it together opens up so many avenues. Because you can talk about it. Oh, my word. And that's, you know, trauma needs to be witnessed.

So many people think that time heals, but action over time heals. So people think that if this happened, oh, that's me being weak if this still affects me. So I'm just going to keep ignoring it harder. But what we know from science, and, okay, another great book, The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk. That's a great book. And he talks about how sometimes trauma gets into our bodies and affects us. And it can affect you sexually, mentally.

So can it come out as anxiety, depression, can come out through like relationship issues, like anxious avoidant attachment. So there's so many different ways that trauma could come out. simply just starting the conversation of like, this is what my childhood looked like, this is what my upbringing, this is what an abusive relationship looked like that I've been in, opens that discussion, and then you guys can start figuring out how did this affect me. What marks did it leave on my soul? And from there, I'm a huge proponent of counseling just because it's so healing

for someone to sit there and help you through some things and give you assignments, It's like it's not just talking. There's science that goes behind it. And here's, you know, fill this out. You know, do a timeline of your childhood care. And, you know, there's lots of activities. There's so much homework we always give with our clients. And most counselors will do this is they'll give you lots of things to start working through this and make meaning of these things.

It doesn't define you. Your trauma does not define you. But it does affect you. So learning how it affects you. And then learning how to grow. from it is such an important skill. It's a life skill and it's a lesson. I know for me personally, I've been in different relationships and, you know, sometimes obviously the person I'm dating has had a very healthy childhood, no red flags. I've also been in relationships where what's interesting is

the guy will tell me something that I know is a glaring red flag like that was trauma that you endured. And so I don't just say something like you had a traumatic childhood. But what I'll do is I'll ask questions. I'll say, well, how did that feel? when, you know, your dad left at that age or whatever. Did that, like, did you feel like that caused a lot of anxiety for you? You know, did that change your outlook on life, whatever? And then once in a while you get somebody who's like, oh, no, that didn't bother me at all. Like, and I'm...

Red flag. So, yeah, what do you do if, like, you're like, okay, I have them take the ACE trauma score test or they just tell me something on their own will, you know, and you're like, that is really a glaring, like, traumatic thing you endured. but they act like, oh, that didn't bother me. That didn't affect me. Yeah. There's a difference between them acting like it was no big deal versus them saying this actually

was a big deal then, but I've processed through it now. Here's how I've gotten help and I've healed through this. Here's my perspective now. So now I'm not as triggered and it doesn't impact me as much. That's okay. Because you see through that response self-introspection. Right. That they've done that work, that they've looked there, that they've spent time there.

Mm-hmm. And by the way, Alex, you are a skilled interviewer. And so... I'm putting them on the hot seat. No, I mean, in that, like that example you gave of asking a guy, like, what was that like for you? How did that feel? Did that fill you with anxiety? Like, most people probably wouldn't talk that way.

You're just really skilled. So people need to probably be trained to talk more like that. Oh, and by the way, like she said skilled. So what people don't realize is these sort of questions, Being emotionally intelligent is actually training. That's not a personality. So people a lot of times think that when you can ask those questions or see people's emotions and read it and come back with. Like that's training.

So being able to do that. I've listened to a lot of Dear Young Mary couple podcasts, obviously. But you're just showing the skill. And so people can work on this skill of, well, for lack of a better term, interviewing that person and learning more about them. the way you ask questions really could help them introspect on themselves. And if they're willing to go there with you and to sit with that pain and to be vulnerable, that's the beauty of marriage. That's a lot of times what couples can be for each other too.

Yeah. Okay, so you're ready to go into engage? Let's go into engage. Okay, this is a juicy one, I thought. Is it a red flag if your fiancé did not get the type of ring that you wanted or picked out? you had told them this is exactly what I want. They go with the complete opposite. And if they do give you a ring that you absolutely hate, when do you or do you ever tell

them that? Oh, that's a funny question. So I would say whether it's a ring or anything else, if you've been very direct about a preference and the preference is completely disregarded, that merits a direct conversation. How do you ring? I would say that that's not an up for. front conversation like, will you marry me? No, I don't like that ring. Yeah, let me look at me in a minute. But I do think once, you know, you've celebrated and the main focus is not the ring,

obviously. The main focus is I want to share the rest of my life with you. But then, you know, once you guys have celebrated and maybe a couple days later, there could be conversations around like, hey, how did you pick out this ring? And then, again, this could be not about a ring. It could be about anything that's been directly communicated. Were you just not listening? Or was it like an intentional? I'm going to do something different because I have my own idea and here's why. There might be a reason and it might be valuable. Maybe there's like a family heritage piece there or maybe there's like a dream involved with the way they did this versus the way you expressed.

Yeah, absolutely. All right. So is there such a thing as being engaged for too long? Like if you are still engaged after this amount of time, you guys have some help that you're needing. Oh, yeah. And with all these questions about time frames, it's hard to give a specific number, right? But we are proponents of shorter engagements, not like a couple weeks. But we are proponents of like, say, six month engagement.

Yeah, I agree. I agree. Because once you know, once you've asked the question, now what are you doing with that time? You know, why wait? It goes back to intentionality, you know? So if there's a specific reason why you need to wait a few more months than what would have been ideal for you, like maybe there's an immigration. issue or, you know, maybe there's something really specifically, then that's still intentional. Well, here, I mean, I'll just go there for us.

We are not proponents of sex before marriage. Right. We're not proponents of that. And that's why any Christian counselor is going to say short engagement because you guys are going to want a bone. Let's get this show on the road. Like, why torture yourself, right? We're humans.

Yeah. Like, let's be real with our emotions. If you're attracted to this person, you love this person, you see your future with this person, what's going to hold you back physically? Yeah. If you know that this is going to happen in five years from now, you're going to get married maybe. Well, that's the thing. It's like, okay, so let's say you are like, I really, I know I want to marry you.

I want to get engaged, but I need to finish two years of school before that wedding happens, for example. Should you go ahead and get engaged then and propose knowing you got to wait a couple years or should you wait and say we're going to date until we know we can have a short engagement? I would challenge the premise of waiting a couple years to do school. You know, why? Why can't we do school together? It's really fun. We run into that all the time. And I think that because people think that once you're married, your focus is taken off your school.

But, I mean, we actually did it. Yeah. And we got great grades. And it was way better. It was way better because we love each other. Now we are working and this is, we'll probably address this later, but it was a mission for both of us. And we were side by side like, yes, face-to-face communication and love and all this is great. But also working on something, working through something together.

shoulder to shoulder is just as important. And so we had that time of working, like, and us supporting each other on our different, you know, grades and papers and everything else. And we learned so much through that experience, the stress, the, you know, timeframes, all that stuff comes up. But in marriage, and I think it was great. Are pre-nups ever acceptable for a Christian? I heard Dave Ramsey speak to this question before.

Did he? Yeah. So he said something along the lines of, you know, the preempts would only be necessary or even considered if there were ulterior motives involved from other family members. So if other family members were like wanting to get their hands on your money and, you know, there was something like that. Then, yeah, preempts might be a consideration. Other than that, there's no reason for it. You are one. You are one in your finances.

You're one in every way. Well, here, I've worked through a client that was like this that had a big issue. You know, they're both did well and they're both pretty much, you know, in the limelight. And one of them wanted a pre-nup, the other one didn't. And so I just, we slowed everything down. This takes some time to really process through because there was one bad marriage before that and there was a lot of heartache around. So this was pain coming out.

Right. But then also we had to look down the road. What is that pre-nup? What is that communicating to the other person? This is a just-in-case. Yeah. And so that's fear, but that's also a reason for resentment going. Like now we're entering marriage maybe with some negative feelings.

Like, you don't trust me even going into this. I've given you everything. I've exposed my heart. And still, you're not sure. I'm not sure if I want to go through this. That becomes contractual instead of covenantal. Yes. Yeah. Yep. Should, well, that brings up, should you have a joint bank account with your spouse.

Yes. Absolutely. I agree. But almost everyone I know, I don't know if this is like a new generational thing or new trend. But I mean, I am like one of the last single people in my friend group. Most of my friends are married, even having kids now. And I would say almost all of them have separate bank accounts. What is your argument for why we should have a joint bank account? So it's transparency and accountability. That doesn't mean you can. have multiple accounts for multiple reasons. You can have a grocery account. You can have an Adam spending account and a Carissa spending account, which we do. Which we do. And it doesn't mean that we don't have access. We both are owners on those accounts. Yeah. So they can have separate purposes because that's usually the argument is we need separate purposes for these accounts because of these reasons. You know, we need to track this this way. I need to be able to see how much I have left in my budget for this. And that's okay. But you need to both have full transparency and accountability and accessibility to each other's accounts. Is it normal to fight more once you get engaged?

Hmm. Fight more. Well, I think that stress is high because there's a lot of expectation with the wedding. You have a lot of voices, right? You have family members and friends and what are the shoulds. And so when stress is high, conflict can go up. That conflict's not bad. I welcome it if it's up. Yeah, and it's so hard because we're giving all these answers without like context. Yeah, and knowing like a real couple because these are like, you know, anonymous questions submitted. Yeah, but I'd want to ask too, like, well, okay, did you go through premarital? Did you get tools? Are you using the tools? You know? So I think stress is a good one because, you know, it could have been just hanging out, having fun, figuring out if they're the one, okay, they're the one, all right, you know, plan life.

And sometimes that can bring up all those differences. So more reason to get counseling. and get some tools on board. I know. So here's the thing. Should finding a couple to mentor you once you become a couple, a married couple, be a priority going into marriage? Yes. I like that. That's a good question. And I like that idea. Just because married couples don't have those rose color glasses on. They can see, they've been normally every couple I know. Okay, let's just say that. Every couple I know has been through difficult times in their marriage because life is difficult. You're not going to get away from that. So you, that couple has been through grief. They've been through hard times. They've been through loss and no money and money. Like most likely. So finding someone just to

look at you and say, hey, this is how life is going to be. Or you're struggling. You're going into this. Let me, let me walk you through some of the things that I wish I would have known. Actually, on the end of our podcast episodes, every single time we always ask, rewinding back, we ask every interviewer. Interviewee. Interviewee, yeah. We ask them, what do you wish you would have known at the beginning of your marriage? And give your advice.

What's some of your favorite answers you've gotten on that? Oh, we're actually thinking we might write a devotional with the answer that each interviewee gives us. Wouldn't that be cool? Yes, that's so cool. But, I mean, we've had really good ones. So we've had like recognize that you're not the most important person in the world. We've had remember that this is, this marriage is service.

And that's, that was a big one. I loved that one. What are some of your favorites? I was trying to think. Those are the ones I was thinking of. What was the one that we just now walked out of yesterday? She said something so good. Yeah, I remember it feeling really good when she said it, but I can't remember what it was.

I'm sorry. You might have to edit this part. That's all right. That's how I am after every single show. I like, it's done. And then the next time I'm like, wait, what did I say about this? So I get it. That's one we'll take that out.

What is normal cold feet and what is abnormal cold feet right before a wedding? Ooh. Yeah. So I think cold feet obviously can be defined in a variety of ways. But if someone is just like kind of getting the butterflies and the nerves and oh my goodness, I can't believe this is reality. I'm actually getting married. Am I qualified to get married? You're going to be my husband in a few days.

Like that's normal. So I remember just to be vulnerable, standing up on the stage, Chris is walking down, big crowd, and going, oh, my word. I am getting married. Yeah. Am I ready for this? And then at the same time, so I like to talk in parts. Part of me was like, I'm ready. We've done the work.

We've had the hard conversations. even though we had a lot more to come. You know, we have, you know, we've done so much, and I know this is the person. And then there's this other part of me that's that cautious side, that worry, warped side of me that says, but is this the one? Oh, my word, this is a huge commitment. I'm getting it. Like, life is going to be drastically different now.

Now I'm into a covenant. So I think that's normal to have that one part of you going, oh, my word, and this other part of you going, yes, let's do this. Yeah. But then there's that other part of you. And then I'd want to ask that person that was asking the question, okay, what does your A score look like? You know, did covenant not turn out well for you? Did your parents get divorced?

Are you worried about being broken again? So that's where I would go with. And that's normally where we see cold feet. Yeah. Should you distance yourself more from a parent that you are very, very close to while you're in the engaged stage so that you can prepare. to cleave to your spouse once you're married. Hmm. Wow.

That's phrased in an interesting way. It is. Yeah. Because having close family is a good thing, but we do have to learn to leave and cleave. Cleave in the Hebrew, the word is debak. And that means to actually attach yourself fully, body, mind, and spirit. So if your heart, if part of you is still really attached to family in a way that makes you not align and da bach and really attach yourself to your spouse, then you might need to set some boundaries with family members. Well, yeah, sometimes there's what we call, I forgot the word for it.

What is it called? Inmeshed. So sometimes there are family members that get enmeshed, which means I'm not really autonomous. like I am maybe still living in the home. I can't make any decisions for myself. I have to bring in my three sisters and my mom to make any sort of decision. We see that. Yeah.

So that's kind of an unhealthy form of closeness. So if that's happening, there needs to be some distance. And just some reality of like, hey, what will we talk about with our family? What won't we talk about with our family? And those are boundaries. Actually, there's a really great book by, I think, Townsend. Yeah, Cloud in Townsend on boundaries. Great book for people to read before marriage, during marriage.

But it just helps you set up those, you know, what does this look like to not share these intimate details that are really not for my mom or my sister. This is for my spouse only. Okay, I really like these two questions that somebody submitted. What sorts of conversation should you have with your partner if they were previews? married. Yeah. So we actually have a whole printout on this. It's in our premarital course.

And it's crucial that you're asking them questions that affect them. So you don't really want to know, like for instance, when it comes to sexual experiences. Okay. This is the next question. Yeah. You don't want to know, like, what positions did you do? And how did she do this? And how did you like that?

Was she like all that's not helpful? It's not helpful. Okay, because the next question was, if your partner didn't practice purity before you, is it okay to ask lots of details about their sex life? So the guideline here is ask the why and the impact rather than the who, when where, what position? Okay. Yep, yep. So you can ask questions like, what impact did that have on you when you left that relationship, knowing that you had sex with that person?

And so you're finding out, are they still dealing with guilt? Are they, do they have a lot of shame around this? Yeah, were you thinking of the other person when you were doing this thing? It's so much more that, like, you, what you're wanting to avoid is put images in that person's head. So when you're intimate with that person, they're not thinking, well, they did this. And they have this stark image of what they were, you know. Yeah. That's not helpful.

Yeah. You're bringing baggage into your marriage. But asking, like, about the more broad, relational, how this affects you. questions. So you brought up having guilt about if you were impure before getting married and you had done sexual things with somebody else. But what if as a couple, especially a Christian couple, you guys both feel guilty or one of you is experiencing guilt because you guys with each other were impure before the wedding night. Going into a marriage, how do you deal with those feelings of guilt? Yeah, there's two pieces here. One piece is the guilt and shame distinction. So we feel guilt for what

we've done. We feel shame for who we are. Guilt is a healthy thing to feel. it's God's way to have us turn that 180 to repent and to move away from that behavior, right? So guilt's okay. But if you're feeling shame after you've already repented, that's an identity issue. And so you're seeing yourself as, you know, this premarital, dirty person that, you know, had sex before. Like, no, see yourself as a child of God that turned away from those behaviors. And so that's one piece of this is you have to process that distinction. The other piece of it is you need accountability.

So if you guys, you know, and a lot of, by the way, it's a good thing if you want to have sex with the person you're going to marry. Right. You need to feel driven towards that. Yeah, if you don't want to have sex with that person. Yes. Something needs to be processed. Right. Okay, so have accountability.

Talk about your desires with a neutral third party. Okay, so the whole next category here is sex. And this segues perfectly because here's what I want to know. I know so many Christian couples. all right and they really are not having sex but they do live together or they sleep in the same bed together and they're like no we have no problem abstaining from sex so if that is going on then would you say that's a red flag that you're not if that you're able to be together every night and not be all over each other then going into marriage you got to be thinking about that yeah that wouldn't

have worked out for us I probably cannot imagine that that would be really difficult I know so many people who do this. Wow. Yeah. So, I mean, I would, I would want to interview these people and be like, talk to me about your thought process when you get into bed at night. Like, are you just like imagining a brick wall between you? Are you thinking, man, I just, I want to preserve myself. So there's, it's not even a question. Or I'm sorry. Or are you telling the truth. That's, wait, now that is, that's right now. That's the big. Maybe they're just like, oh, yeah, we're not having sex even though we live together and we sleep in the same bed. Uh-huh. Okay, sure.

That's a hard one. Now, should you prioritize getting that in and having sex on the wedding night or can you just wait until the next day? It doesn't matter. Yeah, so we actually have a first night checklist. Oh, tell us. On this first night. Yeah, we can throw that in the show notes if you want. So on this first night checklist, one of the items, it's the last item, we say go into this with no expectations other than loving each other, knowing each other, and enjoying this experience.

If that results in intercourse, beautiful. If it doesn't, that can still be beautiful. And you guys can grow into having intercourse. A lot of people, they DM us on their honeymoon and they're like, we couldn't have sex. Yes. But why are they saying we couldn't? Is it nerves?

Is it we were tired? Is it like traveling prevented it? Like what are they saying when they're saying, we couldn't have sex? Like, what do we do? We're on our honeymoon. Then what does that mean? Sometimes it's nerves. Vaginismis is a big one.

People don't realize. how common that is. Yeah. And normally it's psychosomatic. So it's either past trauma or and explain what that is. Oh, psychosomatic. Me, just meaning that, no, no, no, no, vaginismus. Okay, go ahead. That's your, that's your area, babe. Yeah. So vaginismus is a psychosomatic condition. Psychosomatic meaning starts in the brain and then manifests bodily. And it's where you can't like relax, right? Yeah. And so the vaginal walls close in. For some people, it's just dry and it's tight to the extent that they can't have anything inserted. For others, it actually, the tissues aren't even, aren't even available to open up. And so for some people, it's just painful.

For others, they can't even have it, have anything inserted. And so that is just, you just have to get more comfortable around them and relax. And then what do you say? Start an increment. So relax. That's super important. So remember, we've seen this a lot, right? One couple that came to us, they hadn't had sex for three years. Well, ever. They were married for three years. They'd been married for three years. No way.

Never had intercourse. Just because the first time when they were trying to get in, it hurt. Yeah. And then that completely closed her down even more. And then he hated to see her hurt. And then it just snowballed from there. I need to know everything about this couple. I remember not very long ago, there was a TLC reality show.

I feel like there was a couple on there that they also had. been married for years and years and years. They said they had never had sex. But they were weird. They were like every time we feel, because they felt like it's bad or impure to have sex for some reason. So they were like every time we feel a sexual urge, we bite into a raw potato. That's what they said.

Wow. Yeah. So it's super funny. This couple doesn't sound like that. No. Okay. So they had gone three years, never having sex. Never.

What was girls' reactions as therapist to that? Well, okay. So. Well, we're really good. with a still face. Yeah. Poker face. Oh, okay.

Was the amount of time surprising to us? Sure. Yeah. But we had seen a lot of couples who either hadn't had sex, you know, months or a year in, or we had seen couples who had sex a couple times, but it was so painful so they stopped. And so that wasn't a super duper shock to us that, you know, this was their issue because it kind of was falling in that same pattern. And so, yes, the relaxation piece is a big part of that.

You can see a pelvic floor specialist. There are actual physical therapists that help with the physical side of it. Like, they'll help you with, they call it trainers. And so helping you loosen up those muscles. So that's a big part of it. But the other part of it is the psychological piece. It could be processing trauma. So what ended up being the thing for this couple?

How did they start having sex? Yeah. So it was trauma. It was a big part of it. Okay. And then we actually did refer them to a pelvic floor specialist. and they were able to use some trainers, and that was helpful, too. So there was a happy ending.

I mean, I didn't mean. That was good. I didn't plan that. But it worked out. Yes. And there are methods. So we're a big fan of really integrating the senses, and there's a type of therapy called Sensate Focus.

And it's a five-stage therapy. And in the first stage, it's all about learning to give and receive touch. and pleasure without touching any erogenous zones and while clothes are on. And so we do that a lot with couples who are coming out of affairs and they're wanting to reintegrate sex into their marriage. Couples who are coming out of pornography, couples who, you know, had issues with vaginismis or some trauma. We'll start that with stage one. And then it moves into through all five stages where they're having fully integrated, sensual intercourse in stage five. And it's so different than what the sex that they're used to because generally when they're coming out of something that pain or porn

or whatever it else, they're very focused on like objectification. It's just something to do. But when you go into it with like something to experience and sense. So we always like to coach people when we're working with people on if we had a couple here, we'd do it with them. But imagine so many people are comfortable for touching for them. So I'm grabbing my wife. you know, I massage her. Like, I kind of doing it for her, right? It's a kind of massage. But couples break down when they're, they don't know how to touch them, the other person

for them. What do you mean? For themselves. So I'll give you an example. Do you have any nieces or nephews? No. Do you have any kids in your life? Yeah.

Okay. And so when they run by, do you ever just like grab their head and kind of like touch their hair? Yeah, you ruffle their hair or whatever. Are you doing that for them or for you? For me. Right. Exactly. So that's touching them for you.

And so many women in marriage are used to caretaking, serving, serving, serving, and they get out of that mindset of touching for their pleasure. They're so often. And same thing with husbands. They're just not in their body. They're not mindfully going about sex. It's just like it's very awkward for a lot of people because they don't know how to talk about it.

They're not very sensory. They're not bringing in a lot of senses. we could probably get into that in a minute. But just bringing that awareness to people of what does it feel like? What we'll do with a couple, just to kind of show, we'll say, all right, I want you to spend 30 seconds. I want you to go ahead and touch them in a way that's pleasurable for them. So the man, let's say, would grab his wife's hand and kind of like, you know,

almost always it's a massage, right? They're massaging their hand. And they'll say, okay, they both have their eyes closed. All right. Now, I want you now to go ahead and touch her for you. And you can almost always see this just like pause. They're like their brain is switching. And they're like, what does that mean?

How do I do? And then you see them kind of trying to figure out like, how would it feel good to me if I were to touch my wife in that way? Or vice versa. So it's really powerful to have that person go into that like sensory place and then to do sensate with that mindset. it rearranges a lot of times the way the experience sensuality. Every week you hear me talking about Good Ranchers, right? And I thought, you know, I talk about it a lot. But wouldn't it be way cooler if I had the founders of Good Ranchers,

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But then after a few years, building up a customer base, they now exclusively source all of their beef from overseas. And they say it's because it's better, but that's, it's so much cheaper to import beef because the quality is so much less. I love Good Ranchers. If you want to get on the Good Ranchers train, there's never been a better time. Go to Good Ranchers.com slash Clark with Code Clark. You will get $30 off today. And you guys have tons of different choices, right?

Beef, chicken, seafood, and we're releasing a brand new pork line in about three weeks. Good Ranchers.com slash Clark with Code Clark. Or just click the link in the description. description. Is the honeymoon stage a real thing and is it possible to make it last forever? Ooh. Man. There's some biology to that actually. Really? Yes. Yeah. People are actually infatuated. There is such a thing called infatuation.

It actually happens. It lasts for about six to 18 months. So if you get married super fast, yeah, you're infatuation. And you overlook. So are you saying that the honeymoon stage doesn't last forever, but that doesn't. I mean that your sex life can't be great forever. That's right. Sex gets better. Okay. Yes.

That's different. So how do you, what's the difference between I'm just having great sex and I'm in the honeymoon stage? Okay. So honeymoon stage is the rose colored glasses. That's, I really have tunnel vision. I'm not seeing a lot of. They're perfect. Yep.

And so that's the six to 18 months, right? That's why it's good that you date someone for a solid amount of time. If you can get past that 18 month mark, that's great. It doesn't mean that you're not madly in love with them. You can still be madly in love and call it. honeymoon stage if you want. But biologically speaking, things happen in your brain after six to 18 months that say, look for things outside of just what you're looking for to confirm your bias toward this person. Okay. So that's different than having an amazing sex life after you pass through

a few months of marriage. Okay. How do you deal with your partner getting their needs met in sex, but not you? Hmm. Yeah. That's rough. So I forgot what book this came from, but she gave the analogy of, you know, this party. I'm going to invite you to a party. It's really important to me. I really like this party. And so I invite you and you don't like the music. You don't like the food. You don't like the people. You don't like the way it smells. You don't like the actions, the things, the dance. So, but I keep inviting you to this party. How are you going to feel about that party? Ooh. Yeah. Yeah, you wouldn't feel great. You're looking for a different party to attend. Right. But this party is really important.

important for me. Come on. Like, what's wrong with you? That you don't want to come to my party. So you see this starts breaking down. And what needs to happen is we need to get on the same page of how can we make this party mutually enjoyable? Because this party can be awesome, but it has to be our party, not my party or your party. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What are your best tips for an optimal sex life? Well, I'm a big fan of integrating the five senses if we want to get practical with sex itself. They like how to, well, they like, you know, step by step type of direction. They're going to be taking notes. So my favorite gift for like a bridal shower or bachelorette party is to give them a five senses toolkit for their sex life. Oh, that's a cute idea. Yeah.

So I'll give them, you know, something that they can touch, something they can taste, something they can smell and go through the line. But, I mean, that's on the practical side of things. if we want to really zoom out a bit, you need to be really careful about focusing on the practical, tactile stuff before you focus on the emotional intimacy. Yeah. And I know that's huge for women. And I have a question here. How can women learn to enjoy sex if they feel self-conscious? Okay, you want me to answer that one? Go for it. I think this is your domain. You're actually really good at talking about this. I think that... Well, I think it's probably helpful to hear from a man's perspective. are you looking at her stomach rolls when you're having sex?

What are you thinking during sex from a physical standpoint? Because this is what women think. Yes. I mean, there's so much I can say. And I'm not just saying that to fill time. But, I mean, the man is looking at his wife who's been through thick and thin. He is in a state that he's most vulnerable. A lot of men are not very emotionally intelligent.

So where they do feel emotions and they feel most vulnerable. vulnerable is around sex. That's why they want to get sex more than they want to intimately connect. Oh. So, I mean, we can go there in a minute. But I would say that a lot of times that's why sex is so important for so many men is that he's, that's where he feels. That's where he can be vulnerable, even though I'm not saying that's ideal. But so what he's wanting his wife to know is that she's beautiful, that that I want to know you more. And I'm so grateful that I'm so grateful that you're the mother of my children.

And even though that may have left scars, I still view you as just as beautiful. I mean, I view my wife now as more beautiful than when I first met her. And I'm not just saying that. Why do you think that is? I think that because I know her better. And like you asked a little bit ago, does sex get better? It does get better because you know the person better.

But not only like I've driven these roads. I don't have to use Google Maps. I don't have to like fumble my way to my destination. That's a really bad way. I can just enjoy the journey. Yeah. But I know these roads so well now and I know what she likes. And we've talked about this a hundred times.

And I'm still learning things about my wife that surprised me. I'm like, really, okay, you prefer that over this. And so after 15 years, and I can't imagine after 30, but I'm going to get to know exactly how to make the party as enjoyable as possible, and that trust and rapport and openness and vulnerability are a commodity. They're easily found. So that's where emotional intimacy has developed, and that's where it really becomes beautiful. It's about this length of time of building something that's so beautiful. It's not just about sex looks like a Hollywood screen or a set. It's so much more deep and

interesting inside of a marriage that's, you know, 10, 15, 20 years. And I think sex should be more deep and interesting than just the physical look, what you immediately see. And that's how porn has completely just destroyed relationships because you're right. It should be more deep and interesting than just that. It should be a spiritual experience and all these different things. Should we be having sex with our spouse if we don't even feel like it? we like to say this if you are the lower drive partner and stereotypically and statistically speaking that's the woman

say no to painful sex and say no to lousy sex now that doesn't mean if you don't feel like it you there's not a possibility that you might feel like it in 10 minutes right so there there might be you might say you know really not feeling it right now if we just love on each other and make out for a bit there's a chance i might feel like it. I can't promise that, but I'm willing to go there. And that's okay. But if you are, you know, say you're just super hormonal and moody and like today is just a no for me, that's okay to say no. You're going to boost your drive by saying no to painful sex and lousy sex. So what's lousy mean? Like they've had too much to drink or like what does that mean? That means it's obligatory. I have a headache. Yeah, I have a headache. Like I'm sick. I just don't feel like. like it or, you know, just some days are hard and you're just not in that mode. Yeah.

So, I mean, think of the message you're sending to. I mean, sometimes, yes, maybe it's more weighted on me and she's like, okay, yeah, I can get myself there. I can maybe work up the, you know, it will take some work and I'm, I can, but I'll meet you there. That happens sometimes. But that constant obligatory, like, come on, come on, come on, come on, and she's not enjoying it.

You're really destroying what you could have. Yeah, her libido's going. Yeah. How many times a week should couples be having sex once children and drink the picture? And you're asking the hard questions. That's like the golden question, right? So if you just want a straight up number, the average is two times a week. Okay.

That's the average. Because some people think, am I abnormal, you know, or am I normal? Yeah. So in a sexless marriage, which is not good, is about 10 times. a year? Ten times a year. Or less, yeah. Or less. So people wonder, like, well, I guess we do have sex every now and then, so we're not in a sexless marriage, but they could be if they're having sex, like, less than once a month. So again, I'd be asking them, like, why? And sex is worth pursuing people. This is not just like, you know, something we just put off and like,

I'm not into that. Well, there's a reason probably why you're not into that. God made us in a way that it is pleasurable and it bonds you and there's so many good things that come out of sex. So I would encourage those people that just don't want to have it or it's just not at all on their radar or, you know, really, really big difference in drives. Seek a counselor or a sex counselor or therapist to work with them because, like, we've seen so many people go from like almost no sex or bad sex to incredible sex just with some simple, like, simple sessions of just like, hey, working through some of these things, you know, maybe processing some trauma.

But it's, we keep saying trauma, but it's not always present. Sometimes it can be a perfect Christian household that had everything perfect in line up. But what happened in that, in that home was that sex was taboo, sex was never talked about. And that's something I know with my Christian friends. I mean, I definitely have friends that are like, sex is really hard for me because I was just, it was ingrained in me. Like, this is so wrong. wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, and now it's hard for me to just like relax and enjoy it and think of it as a good thing and like a gift from God.

Super common. Yeah. And actually that's one of our like big passion points. So we're- This is what her dissertation is going to be on, by the way. Yeah. Really? Like what? God wants you to have great sex. Pretty much. Yeah. So it's a theology of sex. Oh, cool. Yeah. So that's, and we're passionate about that. That's why we actually create resources around this for married couples. And then now we're we're trying to work on the preventative stuff. So, like, having the talks, plural, instead of having the talk. Yeah. So we want to have talks throughout our children's lives so that sex is not a taboo. Sex is a beautiful gift to be celebrated. And we can talk about it openly from the time they're little children. I had a guest on really close to this time last year. Her name's Francie Winslow.

She's an amazing podcast called Heaven in Your Bedroom. Or Heaven in Your Home. I called the episode Heaven in your bedroom. But she, her whole ministry as a Christian woman, is to help. Christian woman have amazing sex. I called her the Christian call her daddy because on her pocket, she's like very explicit on like all these different things. But it's, but it's very edifying. You know what I mean? And so anyway, what was cool that she had said and I really liked was talked about how like all these parts of your body that you're like, that's dirty or like awkward to think about or embarrassing. God made it. God made all of those parts like with a purpose. So it's not like God's like, oh, how did that get there? You know? And so I loved how to have.

she explained that. If you start thinking about your body in that way, I was like, I'm not even a married woman. I'm like, I can see how that type of rhetoric would be a game changer. Oh, it is. I mean, even. Or type of mindset. Yes. This is a game changer.

The idea, and just to get really specific, the idea that God made a woman's clitoris for no other reason than for pleasure. Yes, exactly. And that's exactly what she said. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You guys would love her. You should have her on your podcast.

Connecting us. Yes. I would absolutely love to you. I know that she would love it. She's fabulous. Okay, so how do you not take it personally if your spouse says I'm not in the mood? Yeah. And this has to do with talking about sex when you're not actually having sex or trying to have sex.

So we're big advocates of you need to be talking about sex outside the bedroom and outside of initiation. If you guys can talk about what a rejection looks like and that it's not a rejection of you, then when you actually do say no, your spouse, even though they may not like it, they will understand. it. If you had those conversations, plural, because it requires a lot of ongoing conversation, they're not going to receive it as a rejection of me. And I'd highly recommend talking about this outside of the bedroom, because generally these conversations happen when the rejection. Exactly. I'm doing air quotes happen. And so walls erupt. There's frustration, and this is why I don't

like to. You know, like it just goes downhill from there. So what we say, you know, talk about this. after all of this is blown over a little bit, just to say, hey, like, and be curious. I think that's a virtue that we don't uphold enough. Be curious. Just say, like, explain to me what it's like to not want sex if you're the high drive partner. Help me understand, you know, because, you know, I want it all the time.

And you obviously don't. What is it like to feel pressured or to feel like you need to perform or feel like and that way you could start to get to, because I, actually I had a hard time for a while understanding that because I'm the high drive partner. Yeah, sorry. Disclosure. That's all right. Disclosure. So that was difficult for me to understand. Like, wait, hold on. You know, I'm inviting you to the party. And you don't want to go. Like, everything that's awesome is at the party. Why not end the night with a party? And she didn't want to go to the party. She didn't want to have sex. And it was really saddening for me because why not? You know? And it took a while for

me to understand that I could get so much out of emotional attachment and connecting emotionally. And I actually, in the beginning of my marriage, I identify myself as being, I would say, more or less emotionally literate. I was not as emotionally intelligent as I could be. That is the skill. So being able to connect deeply is just as connecting as sex. And I think what I was looking for is more emotional connection, but I was pursuing it through sex because that's all I knew how to do at that point. So when men become educated and learn how to do that, they can get so much out of that. And I'm not saying instead of sex, because sex is incredible. I think you should have as much as you can. But when she's not ready, maybe she needs more emotional connection and don't

just assume she's rejecting you. Maybe she needs something more from you. What about for the women who feel like exactly what you were talking about how like the only way I can, I feel like my guy's emotional with me is during sex. Like I can't have any deep conversations about anything. He only wants to have sex. It's the only time I ever see him vulnerable. Then what's the answer to that? Yeah. So that is common.

We were referring to it earlier when Adam said that a lot of men because they're not emotionally intelligent, right? They tend towards sex as a way to open them up emotionally and then they can have pillow talk, right? Right. That's not wrong, but they ought to. to also learn how to open up without sex being a prerequisite. And so the woman can request that. Be direct in your communication and ask for that, hey, babe, I'm okay with pillow talk after we have sex.

But can we also have pillow talk and kitchen talk and car talk? That's really deeply intimate. And for a lot of couples, it's really hard. That's why we created resources around that, like card decks where you can pull a question. And it's easier to ask the question because it's on the card rather than having to come up with it. Because if sex becomes a place that she doesn't want to go, anything that looks like a sexual advance will turn off. Yeah. Right.

So when he goes up and let's just super stereotypical grabs her butt and she's like, stop that. Why would you do that? And that would have been totally fun the first year of marriage and he reminds her. You know that there's something going on, right? Well, she sees any sort of sexual advance as a sexual advance. Maybe it's just him loving, but everything is seen that way. Yeah. And he's trying to get through to her.

I love you. And but he doesn't know how to open up emotionally and talk through it. So so much of what we do with couples is helping describe, hey, how do you feel here? And giving them language and helping him start to feel. Because that's a huge thing. A lot of men don't feel until they get into the bedroom. So, you know, they haven't been taught. Like as a boy, they were just told, get up, brush it off.

Don't cry. Boys don't cry. And now they're in a marriage and they need to feel like she wants to hear his emotions like what? What does that mean? And so starting to explain what does sharing emotions even sound like? How can I even enjoy that? So starting to educate a man on emotionally talking about his thoughts and feelings about subjects can help so much in the bedroom. And I'm guessing that stuff you guys do in premarital counseling.

It's talking about what does it look like to open up a share emotions and stuff? Yes. Like so we teach a tool. This is why not go there, right? Sure. So we teach a tool called, well, it's being assertive. Sertive is super, super important in a marriage. If you're not assertive, you'll start to lack self-confidence.

And if you lack self-confidence, you'll have to avoid things. And if you avoid things, you start to feel more controlled. That's a domino fact. Yeah. So what we do is we teach this tool that says, I wish that blank. And if that happened, I would feel blank. So a lot of times when women aren't getting what they need, need, they get a little bit critical. Men get defensive. So you never do this or I wish you do.

Do you like my woman talk? Yeah, this is perfect. Thank you. It's right on, honestly. And so what we try to help people and empower people to do is say, well, you know, you could soften this. Behind every criticism is a wish. It's a need that's not being met. So what we coached them is, okay, you could say this. I wish that you would love on me and touch me in the kitchen. even when we just had sex today or even when you know we're not going to have sex tonight, but it shows me that I'm not just an object to be pursued when you want something, but you're pursuing me for me. Yeah.

And if that happened, this is the tool. If that happened, I would feel valued. Okay. So it's like motivation. Yes. I wish that blank and if that happened, I would feel blank. And it's teaching emotional awareness for the person speaking, but then also it helps the person listening, gain some empathy.

So good. Yes. Okay. I think that's a really good place to leave off the sex part. Okay. So now we're getting into being married. How do you keep your marriage spontaneous and fun? Boom.

Okay. So what we do, what couples generally do is they tend towards safety. And by the way, safety is really important, which means like, oh, let's communicate, let's go and have, go to dinner and do very predictable thing. and let's create this nest and of safety and budgeting. And they start to create the wall. And that's all necessary and good. But what happens is a lot of couples stay there.

And they don't adventure. And adventure is a very, very necessary part of love and relationship. So it's actually, if you want to boil it down, it's two chemicals. Oxytocin is safety. It's having. It's that feeling when I get a good hug, right? that's oxytocin. Dopamine is I'm jumping out of an airplane. Yeah. And I'm going, you know, I'm falling at super fast and it's all my, you know, the adrenaline's going, that's dopamine. That's that. And,

and when couples only stay on one side, there's a lot to be wanted. It leaves a lot to be. Like, there's something missing. And so to pursue and to do things that are fun and novel in the bedroom, out of the bedroom, go climb a mountain together. We're all about adventuring because what happens is it opens up a new way of seeing, if you and I were doing that, I would see Alex in a brand new way. Yeah. Like it would turn that prism just a little bit. And that's the beauty of a long-term relationship.

So I'm constantly learning about this person and seeing them in a slightly different angle. But if all your angles are all the same that you've always seen for the last 10 years, So is it fair for me to say what I'm hearing you describe is put a lot of value on new experiences, even more so than sometimes material things? I like that. Yeah, it can be material too, but new experiences are what produce the novel drive towards something. So you have the oxytocin which is having, but that dopamine is the wanting. And you want to experience the wanting together. Got it. How often should people go on dates? Marry people. Once a week. So men who have a date night once a week, report that their divorce proneness is two and a half times less.

They're less prone to divorce. Women are four times less divorce prone if they have a date once a week. And a date is a lone couple times. So, you know, that can be an at-home date. That can be a date that's on the town. But you're getting that time together at least once a week. That's undivided. It's intentional.

Nobody can interrupt it. So is going on these once-a-week dates the sure-fire way to avoid? the roommate stage that everyone talks about in marriage? It will help, for sure. What are some other things that help avoid the roommate stage? So we do a daily check-in, and we don't do it daily, even though it's called the daily check-in, but our aim is more days than not. And it's three questions, because what's the typical question that you would ask somebody you live with when you come home?

How is your day? Right. That's roommate, right? That's going deep, right? And so that's not one of the questions. But if that is one of the questions you typically ask your spouse, you're not. bad or wrong for that, let that be a jumping point for the daily check-in. And here's the daily check-in. What went well in our relationship today? What didn't go so well in our relationship

today? And how can I be helpful to you? I love that. Okay, can I tell you something cute that I did in a previous relationship? Well, I think it's cute. And it kind of reminds me that. But I would always ask, like, when we would go on a date, I would say, whatever that given day was, I would say, what was your high point today? What was your low point? And so then, and then he would be like what was your high point? What was your low point? And so this kind of share that way. So that reminds me of that. That's a dating version of this, right? Because you're not necessarily having high points and low points in your relationship super early on. But your day. It's a, it's a more elaborate or exciting way to say, how was your day? Yeah. But okay, so there is a slight difference

though, because it's focused on your relationship. So what happens, and this is scientific, when couples are having disagreement and problems in their marriage, John Gottman, who's like, the godfather of marriage research found that couples that are in a negative place in the relationship tend to see it. They see the relationship biased toward the negative. So they found that those couples see things 50% less good. They miss 50% of the good things that actually happen. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. So when we ask that question, when we ask the question, like, how was your day? like that doesn't get down to the relationship. But when you ask what went well in a relationship today, it's asking, hey, what do you see that went well? And maybe it's actually pulling out the good that's actually there because couples tend to miss that. Okay.

Here's a fun question for you guys. Well, maybe not fun, but an interesting one. Okay. Yes or no, would each of you be okay with the other remarrying if one of you passed away? Aw. Totally be okay. Yes. Totally be okay?

Do you think every couple should answer that? and say yes, is it weird to say no? I don't know. I wouldn't want to be judgmental if somebody said no, but I would wonder why. I've always said I'm going to become a ghost and haunt them. I'm just kidding. We actually talked about this recently.

We did. Yeah, I mean, we talked about it years ago, but we talked about it again recently. I told her totally. Absolutely. Because I love my wife and I want the best life for her. Right. I think that she works best with a partner.

And I would say the same about him. So, I mean, if I want what's best for him and he wants a partner, then yeah. If someone, you know, was against that for some reason, I would just really want to know why. Yeah. And I'm not into a rebound, though. I'd be like, hey, you need to like take some time to make sure. That's right. I love that.

Okay. So also a couple of other married questions. How do you have boundaries with your in-laws, especially when you live very close in proximity to each other? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So a boundary is to protect you, but it's also to preserve the relationship. So remember that when you're setting boundaries, you're not just putting walls up to like silo yourselves and keep the two of you protected. That might be part of it. But it's also to preserve your relationship with your in-laws, with your family. So you're setting up, you know, expectations. That's all the boundary is. It's an expectation that says, here's what I expect. Yeah. And it's loving them as much as it's. It's. it's loving your spouse. No matter who the in-laws belong to, whether it's the wife's parents or the husband's

parent, should it be the husband to initiate that conversation with the in-laws and say, hey, here's the boundaries for our family? Not necessarily. I mean, one standard is that if it's your family, you set the boundary. So if it's my parents, I would set the boundary. If it's his parents, he does. And a boundary sounds like if this happens, then we do this. A lot of people say, then you do that.

It's a boundary for you. So what action would you take if this person? boundary is crossed. That's what a boundary looks like. Should you try to wait to have kids for a little bit after you're first married? Oh, that's such a sticky question, Alex. And we'd probably get pushback for that too. Yeah, we would. But as counselors, you're asking us as counselors, we would say, yes, you should definitely wait. Here's why I think you need to get to know that person that you married and adventure with them that, like we were just talking about. Go and see the world. Go learn who that person is. But does this answer still apply to people that are old?

older once they get married as opposed to people in their 20s. See, okay, the caveat, you had it for us. Okay. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. Yeah, because a lot of people are worried, like my biological clock is ticking and I just can't wait and I don't want to risk not being able to have kids.

That scares me. So, yeah, going into it. And there's no perfect amount of time, you know, for some people, that might be a year. For some people, it might be, I mean, for us it was nine years, but we got married at 19 and 21. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. So what should men and women now both being married and then going through being parents? What should men and women both understand about marriage expectations once your first baby is born?

Yes. It's not about you. Yeah. It changes things, right? A lot. And it's for the better, but it's also for the different. So think about that. Like you're bringing so much joy into your life, but you're also bringing a lot of unmet expectations, which we know results in frustration. So don't be selfish.

I literally talked to a friend just recently. And they were gung-hold. They just got married. Their biological clock had a lot of time left. But they were really just they wanted to have kids right away. And of course, in my way, just being nice and a good friend to him, you know, you might wait some time just to get to know this person. You know, she's a wonderful person.

Go explore. Go do fun things. Get to know, you know, all that. well, they had a child right away. And he just, he came up to me recently. He's like, you know, I love my life, but it did change my marriage quite a bit. Yeah. And I said, yeah. I said, you know, enjoy where you are right now. You're right. You know, don't regret it. Yeah. Just make the best of it. Right. But you know, enjoy it. Enjoy what you have right now. But it is difficult when you're in that stage. And that's a good piece of advice. Enjoy what you

have right now, whether that's without babies or when you have babies or when you have babies or when your babies leave the nest, enjoy what you have right now. Do you believe that not going to bed angry is actually good advice for married couples? So don't let the sun go down on your wrath does not mean don't go to bed angry. Okay. All right, just from a theological perspective. If she tried to keep me up until two talking about something. That would be me, by the way, as a wife.

I'm telling you right now. I would shut dear young married couple down. That's hilarious. Yeah, it doesn't work well. Okay, so, I mean, just teaching another principle of argument. Actually, when a man's heart rate gets above 100 beats per minute, his frontal lobes, empathy, decision-making, all those good things you like about your man, those shut off. Oh.

So he goes into brainstem. Men are made like this. So I'm ready to jump on a grenade for you. I'm ready to step in front of a bullet for you. I'm going to go fight that man in the alley that's scaring us. I'm going into protection, I'm going to fight or flight. So when I'm worked up and you're working me up and I don't know how to fix it and I have low EQ and I start to, and I'm not just saying, I call timeouts all the time.

So my heart rate gets up, my brain starts to shut off. I have to realize that. So if she keeps pushing me, she's not going to get my best self. And people say, well, you say everything you actually believe when you're angry. Oh, like truth serum. Not true. That's not true. Not true because I'm trying to push you away.

I'm trying to get away. I'm fighting or fleeing. So women have to realize that this is biological. This is not personal. This is not personality. So what a man, a responsible timeout looks like calling, like recognizing in my body. So actually for me, when I know I need to take a time out, my stomach turns. I feel like a claw in my stomach.

I'm feeling that like, you know, it's, I know that I feel that first before I know I'm angry or frustrated. So that's my tell. So I find it in my body. Then I call the timeout and the time in, which is golden. That's the crucial part. So that means, that means, so when I'm hearing you're saying there has to be a timeout and a time in, then as the man, if you're calling a time out, you need to be like, all right, now I'm ready to talk about it when you are. Yes. And you have to follow through on the time in.

But beforehand, so you say. This is what it looks like. This is what it looks like, babe, right now. I love you, but I'm really having a hard time continuing this conversation because I'm becoming overwhelmed with it. Can we please come back to this after work? Because I will love to hear you, but I just need to calm down. Or we, okay, side note, it always needs to be over 30 minutes because it flushes all the

cortisol and adrenaline out of the body. And then after that, I can actually like go into empathy and go into like, okay, this is a goodwilled woman. I love this person. She wants what's best for me. She married me. I know she loves me. Maybe it's possible that she has a good reason for what she's saying.

It gives me that time just to step back. And that can happen the next day to answer your question directly. I like that. Wait at least 30 minutes. So literally your stress hormones, that response in your body goes down. Wow. So good. And then I come back to it.

You can't forget that man. If you're going to use this tool, this call the timeout tool or the breather tool, whatever you want to call it, you always have to bring it back, be a man of your word, or a woman of your word. I know women that get angry too. We've taught this to lots of women. But call it for yourself and bring it back in for yourself. And that is gold. We call it the tourniquet for the marriage.

If there's lots of big explosive arguments, don't bleed out, use this tool, then come back, take responsibility for what you did in the argument. And then let's figure it out. That's phenomenal. Okay. Let's do two more marriage questions than we're going in. into like we're in really problem danger land with divorce and things like that. Okay. What does biblical submission to your husband look like?

Yeah. So submission from a biblical perspective, first of all, we see a lot of mutuality in submission. But if you look at Ephesians 5, Paul is talking to the church at Ephesus and he says, husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for her. And then he goes on, that's in verse 25, verse 33. he says, husbands love your wives and wives respect your husbands. And so this, again, there's this mutuality going on. And so, yes, women are to respect, honor their husbands. But at the same time, the husband is loving. And how did Christ love the church? He gave himself. It's sacrificial.

So if the husband is having that sacrificial kind of love toward his wife, it's going to be a lot easier for the wife to respect her husband. So it's an ongoing circle. You don't wait on the other person to do their part. If we both do our part, then that mutuality happens. What's so helpful for couples is just learn to slow it down. Every tornado is fast. So slow it down, go slowly, watch your words. People are like, well, I'm not being my authentic self if I'm not, you know, just saying what I think. And you know, care for this person. Whoever I care for, I'm going to be very careful. If you're going to meet somebody really important, you're going to watch your words.

You're going to be very careful in their presence. You're going to have some protocol, right? You love your wife. Don't hurt your wife. Don't hurt your husband. Be very careful with your words. But slow down, take time, and don't be afraid of dead spaces. Just slow down.

What's a dead space? Not talking to each other for a minute? Yeah. Yeah, thinking. Just being quiet. Like, we don't have to fill the air with words. Think through and also be like kids on a playground wanting the same swing. You know, like you can't listen and talk at the same time.

It doesn't work. So take turns, Alex, tell me about your position. I want to understand you. And then reflect that back and then go into empathy. So that makes sense what you're saying because, you know, you do have some trauma around me, just disappearing or not letting you know where I'm going at night. And I do need to be a little bit more clear in the exact times of when I'm going and when I'm coming back.

Think of the conflict, the healthy conflict here as a game of catch as opposed to a game of ping pong. Yeah. Okay. Now, we're going into I am in red territory. Things are not looking good. Are there hacks that you can actually instill into your marriage? that can prevent cheating entirely? Like, is it just, you know, having regular sex, things like that?

Or is it no, no? So accountability and transparency, that would be a hack. Yeah. Keeping short accounts. So the daily check-in, that's a hack. So you're not having this long receipt of all these issues I have with you that's going to blow up one day. That's going to create resentment and can move toward a fair land. Yeah, and no taboos.

Here's another thing that I've given a lot. of advice too. Me having a really deep relationship with a woman that I find attractive is a danger because what happens if I'm having difficulty with my wife, let's say like communication starts breaking down. I'm frustrated. Who do I talk to? Right? So if I go to this other person and I start telling her all the problems and she's a listening ear and all of a sudden now I'm building emotional rapport with that person, this person understands me better. than my wife. Yeah. And I've seen that. I've never seen an affair where a person walks out of the marriage on purpose and says, I'm going to go have an affair today. Yeah. Right. It always is like,

it just happened. I don't even know how it happened. Well, what happened was you open the door by having a deep relationship, emotional relationship with the person of an opposite sex, and now it's alluring and you have an opportunity when you have pain here. My hot take is, I think it is a red flag in the dating stage for someone to have a ton of friends of the opposite sex. Am I wrong or right in that? Well, I think especially a best friend, like if you are dating, engage, especially if you're married, but even in the dating and engaged phases, you don't need to have a best friend of the opposite sex.

I think that is so problematic, but that's very controversial. It is. Some people are like, well, if you're in a good marriage and if you really trust each other, then you can have a best friend that's of the opposite sex. No, because here's what they think. They trust themselves. They are totally honest with you and they say that it's not sexual. Everything's fine.

But what happens is when you have an issue in your marriage and this person's your best friend and you're emotionally close with them, you start opening up to them like Adam said, and it can become sexual even though you never thought it could be. Yes. People don't plan for it. I've never, like I've said, I worked with hundreds of affairs and pornography and all that. So maybe they don't plan for an affair, but affairs are planted. Yes. Does that make sense? That's a good way to say it.

I like that. Okay. I like that. You open the door. Look that. Are any secrets permissible in a marriage? Maybe what you're getting them for Christmas. And that's it.

My thoughtful look was trying to think of anything. But I just don't. Secrets. Esther Perel says that secrets are the buffer to intimacy. As soon as you have secrets, now you have distance. Wow. Wow. Perfect. Okay. Is infidelity of the mind the same as infidelity of the body? Yeah, I mean, affairs can be emotional or sexual. So again, this goes back to having that best friend or that emotionally close person that you share a lot of things with. It can still be just as damaging and in some cases even more damaging.

What's the most damaging aspect of it is the secrecy involved. Yeah. That's when we talk about affairs, there's always secrecy involved. normally it's not the act itself that's as sad or as infuriating for the partner but it's just the secrecy's like you lied to me you're going here but you're really doing that how long has this gone and then what it does is it destroys all the future of when do i the biggest the biggest questions that every partner has the betrayed partner is how could you do this to me how do i know you're not going to do it again that's the thing how do you actually forgive your spouse's

house if trust has been broken. Yeah. So trust and forgiveness are not the same. And forgiveness is for you. That's something you need to do to release that out of your own spirit and your own mind. But you don't have to trust them right away. You don't have to trust them for a while. I mean, you can be reconciling a marriage and have completely forgiven them and still not

trust them and that's okay. And trust building, if I broke trust, it's for me to work on. And so many people, let's say I broke trust with pornography, so many people say, well, the way they try to build trust is I'm not looking at that anymore. Why do you keep asking that? That's negative reassurance. What we've called positive reassurance is I need to become the man that wouldn't do that again so that you know that I'm not going to do that again. So I start to communicate those things. Here's what I'm doing to become a man with integrity. Yeah. And then I offer that freely.

What happens when you're counseling a couple and you guys know we are at the spot where we have to say a divorce needs to happen? Are you going through biblical grounds for divorce and going through that checklist? Like, walk me through what that moment is like with a couple. Yeah. So, first of all, it's very rare that a counselor will give direct advice like that. A good counselor. A good counselor ought to guide you to your own conclusions based on your own. values, you know, the biblical values, et cetera. So it's rare that we're going to say you need a

divorce. I don't think I've ever said those words. Okay. Even when, you know, there was biblical grounds for divorce, I'm still not going to say you need a divorce because they might reconcile and we've seen that happen more often than not. Right. Right. If there's abuse, that is one situation where I have said on multiple occasions, you need separation from this person. You need to protect yourself. And generally that person's not standing up for themselves. And so that counselor says, this is not right that's happening. Yeah, you're like the advocate for them for their safety. Yes.

And that's when we do take that hardline stance. Got it. Okay, that's great advice. Now let's do one question for the single listeners. What encouragement do you have for people who desire marriage but are still in that single season? Yeah. Ask yourself. I mean, and this is for the person who says, like, I do want to get married because there are people who say they don't and that's okay.

But for someone who says, like, I really want to get married. I'm in that single season. Ask yourself, what are you doing to become the person, to become the one? You know, you're looking for the one, but what are you doing to become the one? Yeah, I would advise them to be patient. I know that that's a really hard lesson to learn. And work on themselves diligently. Read a lot. Work on yourself. Go to counseling. I see so many people squandering those years waiting for the one where they could use that building something incredibly beautiful to offer. Because really, that person's probably looking for a teammate to conquer the world with. And so preparing yourself, and that looks like emotional preparation, spiritual, even working on their career, building that, go as far as they can.

And that person, if they're, you know, want a spouse and they're looking, most likely, they'll find that person. But you determine with that work, you determine that type of person that you'll find. Absolutely excellent advice today, you guys. I am so excited for people's lives to be positively changed. And, you know, some people might be listening to being I want you guys to specifically sit down with me and my spouse and go through some stuff. How can people find you guys and utilize your services, either for free with like your podcast, things like that, or also on a professional level? Yeah, you could find us at dear young merry couple.com. You can find us on same handle on YouTube and Instagram and podcast. Yeah. So we have lots of free resources on our website that they can download, like some of those checklists we talked about.

Even courses, like if you're like, I don't know if I want counseling, but I think a course would be really cool. We have a course called Prequipped, which is for premarital. So they can sit down with their partner and we give it for free to mentors and pastors. So you can get them on board and they can get in the course and guide you through it. It's a seven-week course. It's where we actually walk a couple through their premarital. So you're watching us walk someone else through. So it's really fun.

We try to make it interesting. I also love on their website, they also have a whole page of here's recommended books. Yep, I saw that. And I was like, I love it because I'm a reader. Yes. Yeah, they have so many resources. You guys are fantastic. Adam and Krista.

Thank you so much for coming on this. Thank you, Alex. We appreciate you. We love what you're doing. And we thank you so much for the opportunity to be with you today on the podcast. It really was an honor. Let me tell you something. This episode recording went so long that we actually took a bathroom break at one point.

Now, you wouldn't know that because I have amazing editors who edited that out. Lucky for you. But there were just so many incredible questions. submitted that I wanted to get to. I don't know if you are watching the episode at all on the Poplittics YouTube channel or if you were listening, but if you watch, you can see how loving they are with one another. Like, they really listen to what the other is saying, the way they look at each other. They are the real deal. And I hope if you are married or you're almost married, you'll check out their retreats because I have heard nothing but amazing things from friends of

mine who have gone. And I just adored them. If you liked this episode, then go back and to my Valentine's Week episode I did last year with Pastor J.P. Pekluda on dating sex and marriage, I asked him a lot of very pointed sex questions. And if they were permissible for what the Bible says, that is season one, episode 22. The spillover is back next Thursday night or Friday, depending on your time zone that you're in, with a former child therapist and social worker who is liberal, but voted conservative for the first time because she is so disturbed by the gender ideology, doctrine being pushed on children in therapy and in their schools. That comes out next Thursday at 9 p.m. Pacific, midnight Eastern on Apple, podcasts, and Spotify. And I got to say this also.

The amount of people that listen to this podcast, the reviews don't match the amount of downloads that we get on the episode. So I know that so many of you listen to this every single week and don't leave reviews. So this is me chastising you. And for a little Valentine's Day gift, it would mean so much to the team. and I who put so much time and work into these episodes if you would do us a favor and please leave a five-star review. I'm Alex Clark and this is The Spillover. Love you, mean it. Bye.