Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - “Accidentally Born Alive.” – Abortion Survivor Melissa Ohden

Episode Date: December 3, 2021

What would you do if you stumbled into a hospital's utility closet and discovered a baby soaking in a bucket of formaldehyde? Or witnessed a baby survive multiple abortion attempts and a frantic grandmother, another nurse at the hospital, demand her daughter's baby be left for dead? After being forced into an unwanted abortion by her family at 19 years old, Melissa Ohden's birth mother didn't learn of her daughter's survival for three decades.Today's guest, Melissa Ohden, shares her emotional...

Have I told you about the first time I met Charlie Kirk in person? I was finishing up my interview process with Turning Point USA, and they invited me backstage at YWLS in 2019 to meet him officially. And this blonde chick sits down next to him, and she starts picking through his salad and taking out all the croutons. I was in shock. I was like, okay, this guy is such a big deal that is assistant happily just picks through his salad, and then he eats it wild.

Then all of a sudden, he sits down next to her, and she kisses his cheek. I was so confused and concerned. I was like, oh my gosh, I just witnessed a crazy HR violation. Little did I know. That girl was Erica, Charlie's now wife,

and at the time they were secretly dating. So I had no clue until that point that he even had a girlfriend. I mean, he didn't post about it online and stuff. So I can't guarantee that you'll get to pick through Charlie Kirk's salad backstage at America Fest, but I can guarantee

that not only will you get to see Charlie speak on the biggest stage we've ever had at a Turning Point USA event, you'll also get to hear from people like Tucker Carlson, Kaylee McInney, Candice Owens, Don Jr., and more. Plus, you will be front row for two nights of country concerts with stars like Brantley Gilbert, Russell Dickerson, and Ray Lynn.

America Fest is December 18th to the 21st in Phoenix, Arizona. Secure your ticket now by going to tpUSA.com slash America Fest, and then use code Alex for 2040. percent off your ticket. What would you do if you stumbled upon a baby in a utility closet soaking within a bucket of formaldehyde? The baby is smaller than most newborns, but you can make out all of its features and its own

unique anatomy. Then you hear something. Someone enters the closet and pushes past you. It's the janitor on duty, there to take the medical waste out with the trash. The janitor grabs the bucket with the baby soaking in formaldehyde and exits past you. What would you say? Would you stop him or her? Would you tell someone that there is an infant who was left to die alone, drenched in a chemical that burns the skin and is highly flammable? It is, of course, too late. It's clear that a murder has already been committed. But it's a murder that could have been prevented. In fact, it is perhaps the most preventable form of murder that exists today. Because most of the most of the murder that exists today. Because most of the murder, the time. It's committed against perfectly healthy pre-born babies nestled in what should be the

safest place on earth, a mother's womb. What I just described is an atrocity carried out, sometimes in plain sight, that often gets rebranded as women's rights and health care. Today's guest has a similar story to that little boy who was left soaking in formaldehyde. They were both victims of saline abortions and delivered in the same hospital, just one year apart. The exception is that our guest was delivered by her grandmother, a nurse at that hospital, who demanded that she be left alone to die when the abortion failed to kill her. Remember when I asked you if you saw a live baby in that situation if you would say something? In the case of today's guest, nurses went against her grandmother's wishes to rescue her, and she lived to tell the story that you're

going to hear in a moment. Her name. is Melissa Odin. Her story is crazy, way crazier than I can even tease right now, like way beyond what I just kind of said right there. So be prepared to be on the absolute edge of your seat. This is a goosebumps-inducing episode, if there ever was one. Melissa has spent her life dedicated to advocating for the voices of the unborn and those who were sentenced to die, but lived. She's not only a wife, mother, and pro-life advocate, but she's a master's level social worker and one of my favorite fun facts, founder and director of the Abortion Survivors Network, which is the only organization dedicated

to abortion survivors. She is also the author of You Carried Me, a daughter's memoir. Please welcome Melissa Odin to The Spillover with me, Alex Clark. Melissa, I really want to dive right into the start of your life. What was, was your biological mother's background? How far along was she in her pregnancy? What made her want to get an abortion in the first place? My birth mother's experience is not as unique as what people would make it out to be. I now know that my birth mother was actually not given any other choice than to have an abortion. And we live in a world that calls it a choice and a right, but doesn't realize that many women identify feeling pressured or coerced into their abortion. And

And so that was my birth mother's experience. Not only was it not her choice, but she wasn't just coerced. She was literally forced against her will to have this saline infusion abortion. Here she was a 19-year-old college student and the very people who should have loved her, supported her, provided her true choices and support, were responsible for making sure the only choice was the door that led to St. Luke's Hospital in Sioux City, Iowa. She was not married to my biological father. and from what I've been told, that was just not convenient for her parents at the time because of

their status in the community. And, you know, it's unfortunate because that still happens today. You know, very well-intentioned friends and family members and medical professionals and clergy can be responsible for coercing or forcing women to have abortions under circumstances like my birth mothers. Right. And so what the saline infusion abortion that you're talking about, explain what type of abortion that What happens in that type of abortion? Yeah, that procedure was the most common abortion procedure performed back in the 1970s, and it involved injecting a toxic salt solution into the amniotic fluids surrounding the pre-born baby in the womb. The intent of that toxic salt solution was to then poison and scald the child to death.

So typically procedure lasted about 72 hours. The child was, as we would say, fortunate enough. Their life was ended within the first 24 hours, and then they spent the next couple of days. inducing labor with the intent of the deceased child being expelled from the womb. We actually know through my medical records that I didn't soak in the toxic salt solution for 24 hours or three days. I actually soaked in it for five. Whoa! They just kept trying time and time and again to induce my birth mother's labor, and I was just not budging.

And so here I soaked in that toxic salt solution for even longer than the standards of the procedure. You know, in my medical records, it even indicates they, they essentially, estimated my birth mother to be about 18 to 20 weeks pregnant. But the fact that I was ultimately born alive on the fifth day and I weighed almost three pounds tells the medical professionals that she was much further along. And in a little tiny corner, my medical records, it actually says I was probably about 31 weeks. Oh my gosh. And so that moment you're born alive. Explain what's going on in what you know now. What happened in that doctor's office or in the hospital when you're born alive and then your grandmother actually tried to what?

Explain what happened. Yeah. It's interesting having a story like this. Sometimes people will go, that can't happen. That doesn't happen. Well, it's happened to me and I know it happens to children still today. So here they induced my birth mother's labor finally on the fifth day of the abortion procedure, believing that I would be delivered as a successful abortion. And that's the day that I was accidentally born alive.

You have a birthday, right? Right. I have a day that I was accidentally born alive. Wow. That I now celebrate as my birthday. And there's something really different about that. The gravity of that is not lost on me. And I wish I could say, Alex, that when I'm.

I was accidentally born alive in the final step of that abortion procedure that all the medical professionals just jumped in and saw my dignity and value and provided me medical care. But everything we've heard from people like Governor Ralph Northam of Virginia about infanticide are very much true. I now know that I was laid aside for a period of time while there were arguments about whether I would be provided medical care. You can tell by looking at my medical records that within about five minutes, I was nearly dead. And we know at that hospital, children could ultimately wind up in the utility closet where they

were placed in buckets of formaldehyde and left to die. As far as we know, I never made it to that closet, but I was laid aside. And the very person who told other nurses to leave me to die was my grandmother, as you started to connect to. And I was told initially that it was my abortionist who gave that demand, but now I know that it was my grandmother. she was a prominent nurse, oversaw the education of many of the nurses that even worked at that hospital. That's how she was able to force the abortion upon my birth mother. You know, she knew the ins and outs of that hospital. She had a lot of experience.

She had a connection with the abortionists who worked there. Wow. And so she forced the abortion, monitored at the hospital throughout those five days, coming face to face with me. I was her firstborn grandchild. She told the other nurses still leave me to die. And when they didn't let you die, Did your grandmother know that you had been saved? Yeah, this is where it makes one of those Hollywood turns, right?

You know, here I am nearly dead. There's arguments about whether I'll be provided medical care. And ultimately, we now know one nurse in particular rush me off to the NICU. You know, I was born alive at a hospital. Most late-term abortions take place at hospitals, not because they intend to save children like me, but because of the greater risk to a women's health. that far along in a pregnancy for an abortion.

But I was blessed that it was at a hospital because here this nurse rushed me off to the NICU believing that if other people found out that the abortion had failed and a little girl had lived that maybe they could provide medical care that would sustain my life. I know that because a nurse reached out to me

after my first book came out, she was a nurse working in the NICU that day who was there when everything was happening. And she remembers all of the, the crazy things the nurse was saying about how the abortionist messed up. But ultimately, my grandmother followed her in. I didn't know that until just a few years ago. And I now know that my grandmother told all of those nurses to never tell my biological mother that I had survived that abortion. So your biological mother, who was how old at the time? 19. She was 19. She had

no idea that that abortion had failed. Correct. So what happens in the minutes and even the days after you're born. Yeah, it's wild, isn't it? So my birth mother was told that day, you know, the abortion has been successful. It's hideous. It's a monster. Don't look at it as I was in the room. She didn't know, Alex, if I was a little boy or a little girl. And so here she's in this devastating pain, physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, and then has to leave the hospital trying to pick up the pieces of her life, which, like so many women in that position, she spent dead. decades then with incredible regret and suffering. And so here she tries to lead a normal life and her family keeps the secret of the abortion failing and me being placed for adoption. So while that is happening in her life, my life is really starting at that hospital. So then your grandma did know that you had survived. Oh, yeah. So how did she find out? When did they tell her, oh, by the way. Oops. Yeah. We can joke about that. It's okay. My life is full of them. few moments where you can just go, wow, we really need to laugh about that now.

Yeah, my birth mother didn't know that I had survived until I was about 30 years old. Oh my gosh, this whole time she thought you were dead? Who told her that you were alive? Was it you? It was, sort of. I mean, in a roundabout way. You know, I... I might be skipping in your story, so if I am, tell me.

Well, it's okay. We'll connect the dots together. When I started speaking in 2007 and sharing my story, I, you know, I had tried to find my biological mother before that because I wanted my birth parents to hear from me before I ever showed up on a show like this and they kind of were traumatized by it. And I never could have realized that there was really no way people would tell her the truth. And so I had had a little bit of contact with her family and they made it clear that my messages to her would not be passed along. And I felt like I still needed to come out and share this story with the world. And so here I didn't realize as I was starting

to speak out in defense of life that my birth mother's family would ultimately see me on a TV show. I've never named names until I really got my birth mother's blessing in recent years, but I didn't even have to name a name because they knew I look identical to my biological father. And just from the very details of the abortion procedure and where I was born alive, they knew that it was me. And so that's how my birth mother found out. They saw me on TV and I suspect they kind of panicked a little bit. And they finally told her that I was alive. Are all of you still living in the same area that you were born her and you? Actually not. So I grew up in kind of a little town in Iowa about two hours outside of where the abortion took place. And, you know, my medical records talked about the abortion

taking place there that my biological family was supposedly from there. But I always kind of thought, maybe they covered up some of those details. You know, there's one of those stories. They don't want to share the whole story. Right. But she was not there when I finally found out who my biological parents were. But my birth father was there in Sioux City, Iowa when I found him. So I started looking for my birth parents when I was about 19. That's how I can age myself really quickly with you because that's when the internet came about. Well, listen, Melissa, people think that I'm way younger than I am. I'm almost 29, so I'm not like fresh out of college.

A lot of people think I have a lot younger. So I'm actually like way, I'm one of the oldest people that works at Turning Point. You would say the average age of an employee here is like 23, 24. So I'm a little bit older. But I have to know then tell us about the moment that you find your birth mother and then you connect with her and then you talk with her. Where did this conversation take place? How did it take place? And what did you say? And what did she say? Yeah, that's a long journey to have even gotten to her. So started looking for her when I was 19, found out who she was when I was 30. So, you know, here,

she's finding out that I survived her abortion. I'm finding out who she is. And you're the same age that she was when she tried to abort you. Everything's connecting, right? All of these little threads of her story and mine always fit together. And so we didn't really even start communicating for, gosh, man, almost seven years after that. So we didn't start communicating until 2013. You know, when she found out that the abortion had failed and I was alive, even though she was grateful, she was also really scared because she was afraid that I could love her or forgive her, like I've always said that I do. And for something. She was afraid that you could love her?

She was afraid of me that whether I could really love her and have forgiven her the way that I say that I do. Because, you know, she really was not loved unconditionally at her home. I didn't know that back then. And, you know, for somebody like me who's led a pretty public life now, she kept thinking, people are going to hate me because they love her. And somehow I was responsible for this. And so she was deeply scared of me, unfortunately. And so we started communicating back in 2013. And that was only because another member of her family had reached out to me.

My family and I moved to Kansas City. And what they had to tell me then is that I had moved to the very same community that she was living in. Oh, my gosh. So she's literally like in your backyard? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I lived in Sioux City, Iowa, where my birth father was living at the time. So lived in the same city he was living in. Pack up and move to Kansas City for my husband's job. That's what I was thinking. Never could have. I realized that's where my birth mother and one of my half-sisters live. So that's how we started communicating. And yeah, those were difficult, really difficult conversations to have, even by email. That's how it all started. So what did you say? The first email, your biological mother, you've never spoken.

And do you say, dear mom, do you just address, do you, what do you say in an email like that? Yeah, it's, it's so complicated, you know, I, I remember sharing my medical records with her because she had never received any copy of any record. And she had tried over the years. And I'm thinking, how wild is this that the baby who survived the abortion has the records that the woman who had the abortion can't even obtain? Her mom, like, kept everything from her then. Is your grandmother still alive? She's not. So was she, did she live long enough to know that you had connected with her?

I think so. Well, her dad did anyway. You know, my grandmother probably passed away before she ever knew that I had connected with my birth mother. But I hope that even for my grandfather who's still alive, I hope that they find some peace and some encouragement with a fact. that my birth mother and I are connected, you know, how many times did other people try to really keep us separated? I mean, it's crazy when you look back on her history and mine. Yeah, so how long did you email back and forth before she was willing to meet in person?

You want to hear how long it really was? Yeah. About three years. Wow. And that was mostly, was it her that was apprehensive or both of you? I think both. I think you, in situations like this, I think you're both sitting on opposite sides of the computer and thinking

I care about this person, right? I love them as a fellow human being, and I don't want to mess this up. I don't want to make them uncomfortable. I don't want to be weird. I don't want to be rejected. You know, I've dealt with rejection so much in my life. She's dealt with rejection,

and I think we were both just not knowing who was going to take the first step. And so, yeah, I was the first one that took the first step. About three years in, I emailed one of my half-sisters who lives in that same metro area. and I had grown really close with her too and I just said, you know, I don't want to make this weird

but I'm probably going to so, you know, I was just wondering if anybody would ever be interested in meeting and, you know, I was on a flight when I sent that email and I immediately got a response back that said, yes, all in caps, we've been waiting. What did that feel like when you saw all caps so enthusiastic? Just so much affirmation and encouragement. Yeah, there was never any.

to be worried about. But there's no rule books, no playbooks for for lives and stories like this. So, yeah, we quickly started to make plans to meet face to face. And, you know, we ended up meeting at a very public place. People always thought it was weird, but we met at a zoo. Wait, what animal were you in front of? Well, it was sort of by, uh, what are those? Sealions? I think so. Oh my gosh. I mean, how unique is this story? It could be a lifetime movie. I met. my biological mother who tried to abort me in front of a sea lion, the whole thing is just, I feel like this is a, you remember Unsolved Mysteries? This is a perfect, like, story for an Unsolved Mysteries episode.

So, okay, you meet. Do you hug? Do you shake hands? We hugged. I think it's so cool for me because now I get to take my kids back to that zoo. And, you know, every time I walk past that area where I first got the text from my half-sister saying, hey, we're here. and part of me is thinking, well, I'm going to run away.

You know, I know that I want to do this. I know it's the right thing to do, but oh my gosh, I don't think I'm going to survive this emotionally. And so now I get to walk past all of those points and remember it in a really fond way. But yeah, I got the text that they were there and I could see them kind of in the distance. Did you think she looked like you? No, actually. If she was here, she would say she thinks I look like her. And there are parts of me, but I would say I probably would.

get my personality from her most definitely. But I really do look like my biological father. But, you know, we had exchanged photos and stuff of the year. So we definitely knew what one another looked like. But yeah, meeting that person face to face, it's, I mean, it's exciting. But also it's like, yeah, it's panic. So let me jump back to your life before this, before becoming a public speaker, before becoming a pro-life activist and sharing her story. Where were you living growing up? Because obviously you weren't living with your biological mother. So where were you at that point in your life?

Yeah, I thought I led a pretty normal life growing up. So I grew up in a little town in Iowa. I grew up knowing I was adopted. My adoptive parents adapted me knowing that I'd survived this failed abortion. I was essentially a special needs adoption. So they had been foster parents before they adopted my older sister and then they adopted me. And then, you know, they had my life. little brother biologically after 15 years of infertility. So adoption was just the normal fabric of

our lives. So I grew up knowing those things. I didn't find out that I had survived that abortion until I was 14 years old. How did you find out? By an accident. You know, I now work with families around the world trying to help them navigate how and when and what to tell a child who has survived a failed abortion because, you know, I saw it in my parents' lives. They had nobody to turn to. They didn't, Nobody talked about it. They didn't know that there were other people who survived abortions. They didn't know that there were other parents like them. And so they thought keeping it a secret was the right thing to do. And I think most parents would probably agree with that. And so here they keep it a secret. And when I'm 14, my older sister is facing an unplanned pregnancy as a high school student. No way. Yeah. And as you can imagine, she felt like she had a choice to make. And when our parents found out that she, she was looking at it as having other choices besides life, they felt like they were supposed to tell her my story. And so that's ultimately how it came crashing down on me. My parents told my sister my story.

During an argument one night, she let it slip that she felt like she was more wanted by her biological parents than I was by mine. How did she say it? Literally yelled at me, you know, at least my biological parents wanted me. I was thinking, what? So then did you go run to your foster parents or adoptive parents and ask them what the heck she was talking about? Yeah, I had to wait up for our mom. Our mom was at work that night. And so, you know, waited hours, having no idea what ultimately I would find out that night.

I was really expecting to get yelled at by my mom for fighting with my sister. And, you know, here she ends up not yelling at me and having to really break my heart and hers. And so, yeah, that night she said, you know, Missy, your biological mother had an abortion during her pregnancy with you and you survived it. What were the immediate feelings you felt after hearing that from your adoptive mother? All these years later, there are really no words. I mean, I remember sitting on the couch that cold October night and it felt like a bomb had went off. Everything I thought I knew about myself suddenly wasn't true anymore. How could my biological parents have loved me if they attempted to end my life through an abortion?

And who was I anymore? I mean, so I'm an adoptee, but I'm also somebody who survived an abortion. What is that? And who is that? And, you know, every emotion, the anger and the resentment and the guilt for surviving when I knew tens of millions of children weren't as fortunate. And, you know, the shame and embarrassment because we live in a culture that calls what happened to be someone else's choice and right to make. And I even struggled with the concept of being a feminist. You know, at the age of 14, I was a conservative and I identified myself as a feminist.

And suddenly when I found out my story, I was thinking, well, I can still be a conservative, obviously. But can I be a feminist anymore? Because the rest of the world would tell me that I can't be. Before 14 years old, had you ever even learned about or heard about pro-life versus pro-choice? Yeah, especially, you know, in school. I went to a public school and certainly even, you know, in my life at the time, there were people having abortions in my school when I was 14 years old. So none of it was surprising to me. But when it hits that close to home, it absolutely changes everything. So did you immediately start looking into what it means to be pro life versus pro choice? Did it did you really become passionate about the topic of abortion at 14 years old? Talk about growing into the activists that you now are. Yeah, I don't know if other activists can relate to what this is like. You know, I started out, yes, you know, I mean, even though I really, it took me years to heal and grow stronger, you know, I immediately started speaking about it at my school, gave a speech on my experience. Really? In high school? Actually, it was like eighth grade. And, you know, it's so funny because still today, I'll get emails from people who were in that class and they'll say I'll never forget how you left a chair empty that day.

because I was trying to give them that depiction of this is what life would look like if that abortion had been successful. I wouldn't be here. Oh my gosh. That is very good. I mean, visuals for an eighth grader to think to do that. So that's how it all started. But then I went away to college. And I got the message loud and clear very quickly that I needed to be quiet. And I think maybe other people can relate to that. So I went to a pretty, you know, a fairly large public university. There was no pro-life student group on campus.

And, you know, the few times that I would share my story, it was, you know, the comments from people who I thought were my friends, you know, they'd say things like, you know, just because that happened to you doesn't mean you need to talk about it. And just because that happened to you, it doesn't mean you need to be pro-life. And I think one of the most difficult college experiences for me was, you know, here I had this professor who was really supportive of me. I thought he was going to help me really get into a PhD program. And I was in a personality of psychology class and you were supposed to write about how you became the person that you are. Ding, that's a pretty easy one for me to write about. This is who I am.

And so here I wrote about surviving this abortion. And when I got my paperback, he had written all over it. He gave me an A because I deserved it. But he wrote all over it saying, who would have told do such a thing. These things don't happen. He didn't believe what, that abortions happen or that people can survive an abortion? That people can survive an abortion. And that's when I started to be quiet for quite a while because I didn't know that there were a population of other people like me and I needed to heal and I needed to find a place that I could grow stronger and find my voice. And so really, it took me, you know, entering into my own career as a social worker and, you know, working to find my biological parents and find my medical records and find my own voice. And that's why I came forward when I did.

What was that moment like when you met your mother and what was it that you saw in her eyes that haunted you for so long? Hmm. That's one of those things that makes me emotional. When I met her that day, my half-sister was holding. her hand and, you know, essentially kind of placed her hand in mind. And that was so meaningful to me because I'm essentially, I'm the oldest sister in a family of three on my birth mother side of the family. And so for my sister who's always been there for her and didn't always know the story, for her to kind of, you know, give her to me that day meant a lot. And, you know, when we,

we hugged that day, my birth mom said, you know, I never got to hold you. Talk about rip your heart out. And that's how our day started. And we spent really the day together trying to, you know, start to answer some questions and yet be, you know, as normal as we can. I mean, that's our struggle all the time is to be a normal family in pretty abnormal circumstances. But I'll never forget the look in her eyes that day, Alex. I've worked with wounded people all my life, essentially, as a social worker. And the amount of suffering in her eyes, I will just. just never forget it. And if there's one thing about my life, I could honestly change. That is the one

thing I would do. I would fix her pain. I wouldn't prevent this from happening to me. This is obviously who I am. This was the purpose for me. But if I could take away her pain, I would do it in a heartbeat. I am curious, going through a botched abortion, has that caused any health issues for you in your life? What are the, what are the, I guess, I don't know what word I'm looking for, but the outcome, what's the outcome of that? Right. That's okay. People always kind of look at me and go, oh, is there something wrong with her that we can't see? You know, that's what people used to say about me. It's okay. And you're like, well, I would be like a lot. Right. It depends on the day. You know, when I was first rushed off to the NICU, I did have a lot of health issues. So severe respiratory liver problems,

seizures. They thought I had a fatal heart defect just because of the amount of distress I presented with. They thought I would suffer from multiple disabilities. But you know what? By and large, I am pretty healthy. My one kind of claim to fame that I find in our population of abortion survivors is I've had shingles like 12 times. Why do you think that is? Oh, we know why that is. You know, the doctors will tell you it's because, you know, first of all, babies in the womb experience the stress that their mother's go through. So think about my birth mother and all the stress she was going through. Then children like me, we experienced the stress of an abortion procedure in utero. So think about being poisoned and scalded for five days. I'm pretty sure my body and everything was off the charts. Then you're born alive and people don't provide you medical care. And then you spend time in the NICU. So my body experienced multiple, multiple, multiple stresses. And so I find this with survivors. We are just constantly, we are born into stress. We are functioning under stress in a world that says we don't exist and champions what happened to us. And so that's how it manifests itself is, you know, a lot of

survivors have chronic pain, chronic fatigue, a lot of immune system issues. Yes, some survivors are missing limbs have, you know, burn marks or, you know, paralysis, those kind of things. But most of us carry kind of these invisible long-term complications. Are one of the invisible complications that you've dealt with just in an emotional sense, knowing that your own grandmother wanted you dead? Most definitely. That's hard for people to hear. I know that it is.

You know, for me, I'm a person of faith. And so my faith is absolutely what has allowed me to persevere in the face of it and to forgive my grandmother and my abortionist. You know, I forgave my birth parents first when I was a teenager not knowing what their whole story is. But I have to forgive people time and time again the more that I find out in my life. And I don't have any regrets about that. What is your relationship like with your adoptive family and your biological family now? Do you guys all mingle together? What is your life like?

So my adoptive parents, so mom and dad, you know, sometimes people hear me speak and they go, oh, do you call them your adoptive parents all the time? No, that's for descriptive purposes. They are just mom and dad. You know, they actually haven't met my birth mother yet, mainly just from a logistic standpoint. But they're so supportive of my birth mother, and she is supportive of them. You know, my birth mother would say, I was meant to be their child. That's where I was supposed to be.

You know, she has always said she doesn't think that her family really would have given me any chance to be loved and supported by them. And that, you know, that gives me some grief just because it shouldn't have to be that way. But I acknowledge and I respect the fact that that's how my birth mother sees it, that that's the way it was supposed to be. And, you know, my mom and dad are my mom and dad. And, you know, I love that that they love and respect my birth mom. And, you know, I'm constantly passing along messages, you know, mom and dad say hi, you know, and then I'll say hi back to them from Ruth. and yeah, it's, I'm really blessed. I think you are too.

I have been pro-life my entire life. I grew up in a very conservative Christian home. My mom was very vocally pro-life. It was something we always talked about. I never went through a period where I ever thought that abortion was acceptable. However, being someone that has been in the pro-life movement, my entire life, I have never until your story heard of someone surviving in abortion, actually. And so I'm curious, are you just a one in a million case? How often does this happen? You actually started a organization if you want to talk about that and what you do and what you do with other survivors of abortion. Yeah, trust me, I am not that special. You know, I may be, yeah, you know, in the face of 70 million lives lost the number of survivors pales in comparison. But we know, statistics.

there are probably tens of thousands of people like me. There's a great resource called the Dreaded Complication Series. It was published in the Philadelphia Inquirer back in 1981. If you haven't ever read it, super great resource. In it, Dr. Willard Cates of the CDC talked about how they identified 400 to 500 live births a year from failed abortions. I've done the math. At this point, in nearly 49 years of legalized abortion, that puts us at nearly 20,000.

abortion survivors in the United States alone. I've seen statistics as high as 44,000 that people have gleaned from looking through failure rates of late-term abortions in particular. And I can tell you, Alex, that children survive abortions still today, even from chemical abortions. And I'm not just talking about abortion pill reversal. I'm talking about both chemical abortion pills being taken and babies still surviving both pills. What typically happens or what is supposed to happen in a state if a is born alive after an abortion because like you brought up governor northam you know he was saying bizarre stuff essentially like talking about infanticide so what happens well bizarre but also very real so you know 2019 was really interesting with aggressive abortion legislation and then all of this

talk of infanticide and then we started to see born alive legislation popping up more and more and i've testified you know a number of times both before congress and in various states for born-alive legislation and other laws. But, you know, there are only right now, I believe, nine states who report out their born-alive survivors. And that is, you know, just a slight increase than what we've seen in other years. And, you know, in those nine states, we are seeing hundreds of children surviving failed abortions that they're reporting out. Texas had six in one year. Minnesota had three. I mean, Florida is another one. The list could go on and on. Those are the ones that they're even just reporting out.

The Minnesota report is pretty interesting because if you read through it, they're one of the few states that also identifies whether a child is provided medical care. Of those three children in one year, none of them were provided medical care. So that means they just leave them there to die? Well, they use, you know, the fancy terms like, you know, that they were provided comfort care. Which is what Northam had said. Right. So when you're saying we're going to lay the baby aside and a conversation will happen between the doctor and the mother about, what kind of care will take place. And, you know, I see this in other states, too, when I'm testifying.

We don't talk about how induction of labor is a very real thing. So they talk about it at the hospital. We're going to induce labor. Okay, you're going to induce labor. And then what? Inducing labor isn't just sometimes inducing labor. It's also inducing labor early on, believing that the child won't survive that preterm labor or they're not going to survive long after they're born. And so, yes, children are also then laid aside, left to die under those purposes. What have you found with survivors of abortion? Are they typically adopted out or do their biological mothers decide actually I want to keep this baby? Yeah, so I am this walking encyclopedia of abortion survivor information, which is great because we live in a world that needs it.

when I first got involved in the pro-life movement, I only knew of a couple of people. And now we've connected with 403 abortion survivors over at the abortion survivors network. But we know, again, there's tens of thousands. You know, most of those survivors are actually raised in their biological family and not placed for adoption. That first surprised me based on my own experience. But, you know, it makes sense, doesn't it? When we know that the child is never really the problem, it's the circumstances someone is going through. It makes sense that then the child is, raised in their biological family. And that's how most survivors learn their story,

not because it's in a medical record or an adoption file. Yes, that does happen. But most are told their story through their biological family. Do most abortion survivors have any physical defects or anything? Or you would never know by looking at them? Most of us, you would never know. So yes, from time to time, you will see survivors. And you'll actually see a survivor really soon in a super cool ad with,

the Susan B. Anthony list related to the Dobbs oral arguments case. So one of the survivors that have gone through the programs of healing and education and speakers training and all of these things and found relationships that have really empowered her, she was able to take part in an ad with them. And looking at her, you would not ever know that she survived what she did. But she has mild cerebral palsy hearing loss. So we do tend to find some of those issues in our podcast. population also. What type of abortion did she survive? You know what? I don't even know if we know through her medical records. It talks about it happening at about 28 weeks. I can't remember if she's a vacuum aspiration abortion. But, you know, that's what we also find is that so many survivors are

born alive because they're much further along gestationally than what the abortionist thought. I was told, Melissa, that late-term abortions never happen or rarely ever. Right. Right. And, I am so special that it only happened to me. How often are those actually happening? Oh, we won't ever have the statistics on it because they don't want us to know. But I can tell you that of the survivors in our network, so many are told, oh, that baby isn't, you know, any further long than 18 to 20 weeks. And whoops, they're 24 or they're 28 or they're 31. But, you know, I think the other thing that our culture really needs to get a grasp on is it's not just late-term abortions that babies start.

survive. They're surviving first trimester abortions. Second trimester abortions. One of my team members, so most of my team at the Abortion Survivors Network, survived abortions. Really? Oh yeah. That's how we roll. I love that. So one of my team, her name's Denise and actually she lives here in Arizona. Yes. She survived two chemical abortions and a follow-up DNC. She did not know that she survived an abortion until 2019. She's like, 47. And how did she find out? I mean, if it's, you know, just to summarize. Yeah, she won't mind me sharing her story. So, you know, when New York lit up the Trade Towers Pink in support of expanding abortion through all nine months, she felt like she was supposed to reach out to her dad, her biological dad, who she didn't have a lot of relationship and communication with over the years. But she felt like she was supposed to reach out to him and ask if her mom had ever considered having an abortion. Her mom had passed away many, many years ago. So she reaches out to her dad and says, hey, you know what? I like I'm supposed to ask you, did mom ever think about this? Yeah, not only did she think about it, but she actually did it. Holy crap. Yeah. We have survivors, too, who have had abortions themselves. You know, sometimes it's after they know their story because they have experienced so much trauma and they're not, you know, they're not prevented from being coerced and forced to abort. But sometimes survivors have abortions before they even know their story. story. I mean, think about the trauma that happens for them after they find out. So it is possible that

if you are someone who has had an abortion, that you can still be pro-life later. Absolutely. Absolutely. One of my team, I mean, I love talking about my team. One of my team members is Priscilla. She lives in Alaska. She's 71. You would never know it in a million years. And I want to be like Priscilla as I grow up. But Priscilla survived an illegal abortion, was raised in her biological family, had an abortion at the age of 19. And that's when her mom told her that she had attempted to abort her. Priscilla went on and had another abortion when she was in her 20s. And then like so many women, after all of that trauma, she went to work in the abortion clinic wanting to give women something that she didn't find there, which was support. And of course, then her life has turned around dramatically.

you know, because she became a person of faith and she's now been able to heal in so many of those different areas of her life. And I just love her so much and her courage in sharing her story as difficult as it is. So you brought up that Priscilla felt like she wanted to provide something

that she didn't feel like she had when she was in crisis. What is your response when people say that pro-lifers only are pro-birth? We don't care about BV until, you know, except when they're in the womb. We care more about women and children after they've been born than the abortion industry and lobby ever will. And it doesn't take long at all to look at the pro-life movement and see that from pregnancy centers to people out on the sidewalk to other pro-life organizations.

Yeah, we talk about being pro-life as being pro-woman and pro-child and we mean it and we know it. And that's what makes me proud to be in this movement. We don't just care about children like me. We care about women like my birth mother. The organization that you started is the Abortion Survivors Network. Talk about the really special work that you guys do. Yeah, we're the only organization worldwide that serves abortion survivors and even families who need to be healed. You know, think about both sides of my family, adoptive and biological,

and how they were impacted by this failed abortion. and they didn't have anybody to turn to to help them. So, yeah, we run healing groups multiple times a year. We just did an in-person retreat this year where we had 17 abortion survivors there. Oh, my gosh. We'll probably have 30 next year. And this is a nonprofit? We are.

We're a nonprofit. And think about that. We are the nonprofit made up of and serving the very people that the abortion industry tried to kill. We're up against the very giant who tried to kill. to take our lives. So we offer healing support. We do community and peer support. So we even get together once a month with abortion survivors from as far away as Sri Lanka, Africa. I mean, it is amazing to see people lay eyes on someone who's just like them. We also do education groups. So we train survivors how to share their story. That's really cool. It is really cool, isn't it? And over the summer, we launched six

survivors publicly with their story for the first time. So people can visit our YouTube channel. It's just the abortion survivors network. And you can find seven minute clips from these survivors sharing their stories. And it is like for me, it is so impactful, even though I know them. I'm blown away every time I hear them speak. So we're training people on how to speak publicly, how to advocate. And we're ultimately getting them involved in major campaigns like the one you will see soon. It's been 49 years of legalized abortion and there's never been an organization like us. And it's long past time that people are healed and supported, but also then that our culture needs to come face to face with us. Talk about the upcoming Supreme Court case, why this one

may arguably be even more important to the issue of abortion than Roe v. Wade. Absolutely. You know, if people have been paying attention, you'll see that we're talking a lot in the movement about how we know everything that we do now about, you know, the science of the baby in the womb, ultrasound, all of these things. And, you know, we also know that viability is, you know, much earlier than what they ever wanted it to be. I mean, I've, gosh, I was in the Oval Office when Trump was in office and I was with a little boy who had been born at like 21 weeks. So we know the viability is, you know, earlier and earlier. So, you know, we know all these things. to be true since Roe was, you know, essentially settled. That's what they're trying to say, right? Oh,

this is settled. No, it's far from settled. So we know that all of these things are true and different than what they were back in 1973. And we know that, you know, women don't need abortion to be able to be successful. I frankly find that demeaning every time I hear it. And as a woman who survived an abortion, the very act that was most, you know, supposed to end my life, that's now most. That's now my right to exercise and is supposed to be empowering to me, that's ridiculous. So we know that this court case is incredibly important. And I do truly believe, no matter what happens with the Texas ruling right now, I think we have a great likelihood of the court realizing the truth that, you know, Roe was devastated our lives. And it is not a constitutionally protected right.

And so what is this case called? And what will it determine or what could it determine. Yeah, so the oral arguments are on December 1st. And so you'll find it as Dobbs versus Jackson, Whole Women's Health, I think, is the complete description of that. And so that was headed up really by Mississippi Attorney General Lynn Fitch, who is just a rock star, in my opinion. She makes me want to go to law school. It's just a brilliant brief, first and foremost, but it was based on Mississippi's law that was, you know, really banning abortion at 15 weeks. And so that's when the court was stepping in and saying, whoa, that's completely unconstitutional. Well, let's challenge that. Let's have a real talk about the humanity of pre-born children in the womb and the realities that women

face. And so that's really what's teed up those oral arguments on December 1st. People aren't allowed into the court to hear those arguments because of COVID protocols. But they are going to be, playing those arguments out into the general square. There's a big rally. You will see me there, along with lots of other pro-life leaders. I should have the opportunity to give some remarks that day. I have a lot to say. Oh my gosh. I'm excited. That's freaking cool. Okay, so you also are a mother now, which is so amazing. And you were kind of telling me about your daughter is 13. And you were kind of describing she's a little cute servative. She is. I mean, I hope she. is cool with me saying that, Liv, you are. I mean, you, you are, you know that you are. She is

outstanding to be 13 years old and, you know, she's not afraid to be bold about who she is and what we believe and not back down and knows that, you know, our conservative beliefs are worth fighting for and that we're right. And so, yeah, she goes to a lot of pro-life movement, you know, activities with me. She, you know, you know, you. used to fall asleep at my feet at podiums when I was giving speeches. So she's just been raised in the movement and out on the sidewalk. And, you know, she plans on running for office someday. She wants to run for Congress. She plans on going to law school and studying politics. And, you know, I was sharing that I was at her conferences recently. And, you know, one of her teachers said she's just

one of those kids where she leads other people just naturally follow. And they went so far as to say that, you know, they saw her as the next Condoleezza. ice. And that's, I mean, that's life complete for me right there. That's your girl. That's my girl. How do you prep her to be able to debate the topic of abortion at 13 years old with a mother who is a staunch pro-life activist? How does she deal with that in today's culture? I cannot imagine what types of conversation she has as a middle schooler right now. Yeah, that's what I love about her. She really is so much. more bold than I could be at that point in my life. And I was looking through old Facebook memories the other day. And so I did an ad with the Susan B. Anthony List back in 2012 called

How Will You Answer? And that was about then Senator Barack Obama's infanticide history. And she was raised, you know, she was pretty little, but she was growing up as it was happening. And through an old Facebook memory, she said, you know, why does that, Urbock Obama, why does he think it's okay to kill babies in abortion and leave them to die. I mean, she was like five years old and she was saying that. Out of the mouths of babes. Yeah. So, you know, we go from there to now being 13 and, you know, she just brings up to people, you know, not only the tenants of our faith, but also the science of when life begins. And I love that she is able to include, you know, women's rights. And if people want to go there, she talks about the rights of her mother and her own right as a young woman who never would have lived if the abortion would have been successful in ending my life. You know, she knows enough pro-life leaders to say, you know, if somebody brings up rape, she can talk about, yeah, and what about their life? And, you know, do those circumstances change the value of that person's life? Does it ever make it okay? So it's just, it's cool to really equip her to have those conversations.

Talk about the gift of motherhood and just talk about that for a lot of the younger members of my audience or women that are like, I don't know if I want to have kids or, you know, culture tells me that I need to fulfill my own dreams. I need to do me, me, me, you know, and not pour into somebody else. Talk about just what a gift of motherhood has been for you. I've been able to do it all. You know, leave a job as a social worker, get involved in the pro-life movement. You know, I speak. I speak so much so frequently. I'm constantly in and out of airports, raising money for other organizations in my own, going and testifying before Congress. My children have never held me back. What they have done is give me something worth fighting for because this is my legacy to them and to the world. And on the days that get hard, you know, I have a I have a note in my bag that's here with me today. It's a picture from my seven-year-old and it's her and I and it says, I miss you, mom. You know, What? Yes, that somewhat breaks my heart that I have to be away from her. But at the same time, she is living her life knowing that this was a sacrifice. Mom makes. This is a sacrifice. Our family makes. And it's always worth it. And so our culture has really, you know, strewn that lie that to be a successful woman, you have to choose between a career and being a mother. And I say, no way. And I know so many other mothers who are just as successful. And I wouldn't have it any other. their way. This is like, this is the women's empowerment feeling that I feel like they try to

pretend that you get if you go to something like the women's march or whatever, but I'm feeling it now with you, Melissa, like this is, I feel so encouraged and excited about just my future one day, hopefully, God willing, that I'll get to be a mother and just you, your story and your family makes me so absolutely excited and just so happy for you and I don't even know you, but I just am so elated, just everything you're describing. I do. want to know for anyone listening, just like your biological mother who is forced to have an abortion or, you know, attempt to have one, for anyone else who has gone through that where they felt like they had no choice, their family was pressuring them, they had a boyfriend that was pressuring them or whatever to have an abortion. And maybe it was successful or not, but what would you as an abortion survivor want them to know? And even if it was their quote unquote choice to have that abortion at the time, you know, the answer is still the same. You are loved. You are forgiven. there are so many healing resources out there from local pregnancy centers to groups like support after abortion surrendering the secret hurt by abortion.

You know, that list could go on and on of the organizations that people can turn to for help. And no matter what our culture says about how it's a choice and a right and that you shouldn't feel guilty or any of those things, we know that that is indeed what women face. And so you are not alone in that and turn to places for help and for hope. What are your favorite, besides abortion survivors network, obviously, what are your other favorite nonprofit pro-life organizations for people to get involved in if they want to do something for the pro-life movement? I get asked this question every time I talk about abortion. There are so many good ones. You know, Abby Johnson and the team over at Pro-Love Ministries, Abby's a good friend of mine.

Pro-Live Ministries is a fairly new nonprofit, so they do affiliates. So the Abortion Survivors Network is an affiliate. So they help us really become a new startup and get started in the pro-life movement, even though we've existed for a long time. But as a startup, you've got things to do. But they help other organizations really start to grow and fill in gaps in the pro-life movement. But they also have one of their own organizations under that umbrella called Love Lines. And if people aren't following that, it's a great resource when women are facing crises in their lives. they really do case management and help meet those needs, help them navigate systems to meet those

needs that it could be driving them to abortion. So Love Lines is an incredible place to turn to. And I'm a big fan of the Susan B. Anthony List, the Charlotte Lozier Institute I work with a lot. Local pregnancy centers are saving lives every single day and they always need support. Yes, my favorite thing, I'm sure you're familiar with Ali Stucky. And Ali does something really cool just for her birthdays and holidays and stuff. She always comes up with a pro-life list on Amazon, like a wish list or whatever, a registry and finds a different pro-life center in the United States and then just encourages people to buy things off their registry and donate to the pro-life center. And she'll post pictures, share pictures from the pro-life centers of

like hundreds and hundreds of Amazon boxes of all the supplies that pro-life people have bought for them, you know, that they can't even fit in the door. It's like they're having to buy extra storage for it and everything. You know, that's when I think of people saying, we're only pro-birth. I'm just like, I've seen the evidence, you know, like, whatever. But you have some really exciting stuff happening soon coming up in the new year. So I want to know about that. Yeah. So I have one book out right now called You Carried Me a Daughter's Memoir. And my second book is coming out sometime next year. Pub Date is kind of fluid at this point. We haven't announced who the publisher is, but I can tell you it's a major Christian publisher, and I'm working

with a major Christian author who's a best-selling writer. And the working title right now is more than a choice, abortion survivors break their silence. Ooh, yes. I think that's a good choice. And so, yeah, keep that title publishers, if you're listening. We're feeling it. We're feeling I got goosebumps. But I'm telling about 10 other abortion survivors stories who have never been public before. Some of them are little. One of them is actually a young child under the age of 10 from here in Arizona. No way. Yes. Oh my gosh. Okay. I'm very, very stoked for this. And so when does this book come out tentatively? Can you give us that? I don't know yet. Okay. It may not be until the fall. It really is the pandemic. Yeah. But for sure, 2022. Oh, yes. Okay. That isn't changing.

So it's going to be an incredible book. And I'm excited about that. We've, never had one like that in the pro-life movement. And I think it's a great opportunity when people want to go, oh, there's like one of them or two of them. No, first of all, here's a book full of them. And I'm going to work really hard to find the rest of the people whose stories are untold. I want to know when the Melissa Oden movie is going to come out. Abby Johnson got, you know, unplanned. When's your movie coming? Are you going to get one? Maybe. There's also something in the works before that. So a documentary. that we're kind of working on the fundraising for at this point.

Okay. Well, wait, if people want to get involved with that, where can they find that to help? They can contact us directly at the Abortion Survivors Network. Again, it's somebody with a proven track record of major pro-life documentaries. I wish I could name names. He probably wouldn't mind, but I should probably not. But people can contact us at the Abortion Survivors Network. You know, it's about $150,000 to maybe make that a reality.

And I think it's a game changer. Absolutely. Okay, so where else can people find you? Where can they follow you on social media and all that good stuff? Yeah, you weren't expecting that part where you put. Documentary first, and then that will lead to my life story. That's what they've laid out. They can find us at the Abortion Survivors Network.

So we are Abortion Survivors.org. Find us on, you know, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook at the Abortion Survivors Network. Melissa, you're like one of the coolest chicks I've ever had the pleasure of meeting. Thank you so much for coming on this bill over today. Thank you. I can't say it enough. Melissa's entire story is why I fight for life. It's why conservatives fight for life.

It's why all of us fight for life. She has impacted so many people because she survived. And it just makes me think of what sort of world we'd be living in right now. Had there never been a single abortion? What change might those lives have had on human history? Just really makes you think. I always say the phrase, it's brave season as a way to encourage you.

to share your conservative or pro-life beliefs. Melissa's story is an awesome way to start the conversation about life. Just share this episode on social media or text it to a friend and be like, did you know that there are people out there who survive almost being aborted? I never have, and this woman's story is nuts. You've got to listen to this. If they're pro-choice, I bet you that person would say that they're all for women's rights, right? Well, Melissa's a woman, a wife, a working mom, a social worker,

and all around rock star, they should believe in her right to life too and listen to what she has to say. If you're hearing from me for the first time, you should know that besides the spillover, I have a daily show on Instagram that's a few minutes every single day where I cover the daily pop culture

and entertainment news from a conservative perspective. The show is called Poplittics, and we just celebrated our two-year anniversary. It's on Instagram. Every day I spill the conservate, as I like to call it. And then every Friday, I share the conservatee that I can't fit in a Poplitics episode on this show, which is why it's called The Spillover. The goal and purpose of the spillover is to share

mind-blowing stories and interviews with some of the most interesting people and storytellers in the world. Even if you aren't conservative, I know without a shadow of a doubt that you will love these stories and guests because it's stuff that you won't hear on any other podcast. First-hand accounts and survival stories, experts in the juiciest most controversial topics like teen girls with gender dysphoria and even relationship advice. Every week is totally different. So make sure you subscribe to Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Just search for The Spillover. Subscribe on there. And if you like the show and you want us to keep growing, leave us a five-star review. I cannot tell you how much that helps the show and episodes. I'm Alex Clark and this is the Spillover. Love you, meet it. Bye.

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