Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - “Antichrists: There Will Be Many.” - The End Times With Theologian Samuel Sey

Episode Date: April 7, 2023

What’s actually going to happen in the End Times? It’s not a question of if it’s going to happen, but when and how? 😰 Are we living in the End Times already? 👀 What should we be looking for when it comes to spotting the Antichrist? 😧 According to Scripture, is the Antichrist more likely to be a conservative or a leftist? ☁️✨ Will we know people in Heaven and have our same personalities & talents?These are some of the theological & eschatological questions Alex Clark dives into with Sa...

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I can't wait to meet you. What do you think heaven will be like? I've always pictured some sort of community built on clouds with gold paved streets, colors so bright, our human brains can't even comprehend them. Zoo animals and maybe like a telescope where angels go to look at what's happening on Earth on a little lookout station.

That's kind of the fun and lighthearted conversation to be had when it comes to the end times. But it's when people start talking about the rapture and what actually happens. at the end of the world when the Antichrist is ruling that people, at least in my experience, tend to get so freaked out that they change the conversation. There's a lot of healthy debate, even amongst believers, on how literal certain events depicted in the book of Revelation are.

I invited a mutual friend of both mine and Alibeth Stuckies to discuss his theology and eschatology. He is a blogger, pro-life advocate, public speaker, and his specialty is writing and speaking about cultural issues from a biblical perspective. What is going to happen at the end of the world? He says a lot of things in this episode that I have genuinely never heard in my life, so maybe you haven't either. I also know that a lot of topics we discussed today are contended, and there's a good chance, almost a certain chance, that you'll have your own strong opinions on them. Do me a favor, have these discussions in the cute Servative's Facebook group and leave your five-star

reviews, talk about them there so that everyone can see and interact with them. Now, let's hear from Samuel Say, aka Slow to Right, to the Spillover. Samuel, before we get into the end times, which everybody is wanting to hear, I feel like we should probably start with your own story of not only how you became a Christian and got saved, but also how you became known as this theology guy on the internet. Well, I became a Christian when I was 19. I was raised by my mom, who is a Christian, I was raised in the church. I truly can't count. I never really miss church.

If I was sick, my mom would say, well, hey, if you're going to die, it's best if you die at church than anywhere else. So you're going. But I wasn't a Christian until, even though I was, you know, raising a Christian household, I didn't really become a true Christian or born-again Christian until when I was 19, when I heard the gospel that I'd heard my whole life. But this time, it just clicked. It was actually at a young adult retreat.

So some good things happen at young adult retreats. At those youth groups. Yeah. So I heard the gospel. I became a believer. And then I had a passion for theology, a passion for writing. And I wanted to really help people develop a love for theology the way that I do. So I created my blog, Slow to Write, 2015, which is not, wow, eight years ago. Wow. And yeah, since then, I guess people recognize that I do address cultural issues from biblical theology. So I don't know if I'm seen as a theology. guy, but I do address that quite a lot. I would say so. You've been on Alley Stuckie's

podcast relatable and things like that, which is fantastic. We love Allie here on the spillover. How would you describe your church background? You know, it's interesting. I was raised in a hyper-charismatic movement. When I say hyper-charismatic. Snakes. Okay, not quite as well. Not to that level, not to that level. But like, you know, like, this is an African Pentecostal, like church. So it can get crazy. I was raised an environment. But then a year after I became a Christian, I actually became a Baptist, a reformed Calvinist.

So that is my background when it comes to my theology. And how would you identify your theology now? Would you still say that you're a reformed Calvinist? Yeah, I'm a reformed Calvinist. Since you mentioned, Ali, I would fall very closely with Ali when it comes to. to our theology. Okay, yeah. That's a really good reference point, I think, for us to know.

What do you believe the definition of a Christian is? Ooh. Well, as I hinted at earlier, it is not somebody who simply goes to church. It's not somebody who is simply raised in a Christian environment. It's somebody who truly follows Christ. That's what the word means, right? To be a Christian is to follow Christ. It really means to believe that Christ is God, that he was born.

through a virgin birth, Mary, that he's a sinless, righteous God, a fully God yet fully man, and that on the cross he died for our sins and rose again for our justification. And that resurrection was physical and that he ascended to heaven. And then he's right now interceding for Christians and that he will return. That's a short brief summary of what it means to be a Christian, but it really means to believe what the Bible says. lot of people, to be frank, a lot of conservative sometimes will say they're Christians, but they really mean it from a cultural point of view and not really from a personal view. Yeah, I would agree.

And there are also a lot of sex of Christianity. So there's Baptists, there's Lutherans, there's Pentecostals, Catholics, Calvinists. Can anyone of the sex still be saved despite the varying theologies of these denominations or no? Absolutely. So Baptists, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Methodist, there are very small differences. It's really, the main difference is how we do church. But in terms of what we believe about Christ and the gospel is the same thing. But then you do have others that say they're Christians, but they're not. And I will name names. Go ahead, name names. Be Mormons, they have a different Jesus. They do not believe Jesus is God. That is a fundamentally different religion than you have Jova witnesses, right, who old.

also have a different view of Christ. So there are some who are genuine Christians because, again, we are aligned on the core doctrines of Christianity. And then there are those who are not because they have a different view of Christ. Why is Christianity the only way when tons of religions exist? Yeah. That's a great question. It's the only way because, well, there's only one God. And there's only one gospel from God. A lot of all their religions, all religions, all religions, really basically say that the only way for you, the point of, the only purpose in life is to be a good person, that there's really no hope, they don't really address the issue of life after death. They'll talk about how, you know, just reincarnation, you know, in some of these views.

Yeah, it's kind of glossed over. Exactly. But the reality is we all know there is a sin. There's sin in this world. And if there's sin in this world, there has to be a. punishment for sin. And it's not really going to be just with jail, right? Because jail is to punish, prison, I should say, is to punish crimes. Not necessarily sin. But if, since God is righteous, since God is holy, he has to punish sin. And the only religion that really addresses that with true

justice and with only hope for salvation is Christianity. So all our religions really are saying the same thing that you have to be a good person, where we say as Christians that it's impossible to be good. Romans 3, but the Apostle Paul says there's no one good, not even one. The only hope is that there's one good person, that is Christ. And if we believe in him, if we trust in him, we can be saved. One of the hardest things that I run into when I'm discussing Christianity is people who say, well, how do you know that the Bible is even true? And it wasn't lost in translation after all of these years. I know we're doing a lot of basics, Bible Christianity basics, but I feel like that's important to establish what you believe before we start talking end times.

That's really important. I have complete trust in the scriptures because one, for example, we have manuscripts from the New Testament books, whether it's like the Gospel of John or Romans and Revelation and things like that. And we have manuscripts dating back from like 2,000 years ago. And when you look at those manuscripts, though they are in Greek or Latin or different languages, they are really identical to what we have today. So they're reliable. And then even in the Old Testament, we have also, again, manuscripts. We have scrolls, especially the Dead Sea Scrolls, which also are completely accurate with what we have today.

And those date back, I think, roughly 3,000 years ago. So when you have manuscripts in different languages, whether it's Hebrew, Greek, Latin, or other other, um, um, um, um, um, languages and they are really identical to what we have in the scriptures today, even though they're in English, shows that the Bible really is reliable, that it has not been doctored. It hasn't been changed. Some people say it is really accurate. And that really shows God's providence and the uniqueness and inspiration of the scriptures. Are some things in the Bible meant to be symbolism, or is everything supposed to be very literal? There are some things that are symbolic and there's something that's very very literal.

It depends on the context. So for example. Joan and the whale. No, that is, that's literal. He was in the whale! He was in the whale. That's literal. That's literal.

There are some who think it's not, but I don't see any, when you look at the way the book has written, it would be very random if just that part happened to be symbolic when everything else reads as literal. It wouldn't make any sense. So, and really it's very foreign to all of scripture in that way in terms of if it was symbolic. So it's literal. But there are things like, for example, Christ says that if your eye or your hand causes you to sin, either guard out your eyes or cut it off. Are we really supposed to be cutting out of eyes and cutting our hands off? There have been some people who unfortunately, because they have not understood what Christ meant in context,

that they've actually done that. Actually, I think it was an R&B singer several years ago who really just took out his eyes. It's pretty crazy. You know, I think he was on drugs. You probably have to be, you know, to do it on your own. Nevertheless, that's symbolic. Basically, that's him saying,

whatever tempt you to sin, do whatever you need to do to cut it off so that you would not be tempted to sin. Yeah. So that's, so, so there are times where it's symbolic and there are times where it's literal. It depends on the context. How can we be sure that heaven is even real? Because we're talking about the end times today. We're talking about the afterlife. I do have specific questions about what heaven is going to be like.

But what's the point of this conversation if we aren't even sure if it exists? Well, we know it's real because God is real. Now, some atheists are going to say, I'm going to say that's not true. But I really can't, any argument that God is not real makes no sense to me. There's a very simple ways to address that, which is if you see a building, you don't just say, oh, how did this get there? You just know a builder built the building. In the same way, we have a universe. We have creation because God created it. So since God exists, heaven must exist.

You know, we are, you know, as humans, we know that death is not the norm. It's become the norm because of sin. But I was actually recently at a funeral. saw this body there. And I was thinking about it. I'm like, you know, that person is not there. The body is there, but it's, but their soul is not there. So where are they going to be? They're, they're going to be either in heaven or in hell. They're going to be in eternity because we are, we are spirits. We are not primarily. Now, of course our bodies does matter too. And the gospel does addressed that one day, those who are in Christ will have a physical resurrection, just

like Christ has a physical resurrection and have his glorified body. But heaven exists because God exists. It's impossible to say that God exists without also acknowledging that if he exists and that we are made in his image and that God, because he is eternal and we are made in his image mean that we are not eternal, you know, in our own, but we have, in a sense, immortality. So we can't really die. Our bodies can die, but our souls and spirits cannot die. But the reality is where do we go? It's heaven or hell.

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So you bring up the realities of there's heaven and there's hell, but there's a lot of denominations of Christianity that say like, oh, yes, of course, heaven is real, but not hell. Yeah. Like God would not. That wouldn't be, I don't know, something that God would do. send people to hell. Yeah. And what do you say to that? Well, I will give an example.

If somebody were generally, even leftist would say that generally, if you commit a crime, you should receive, there should be justice over that generally. Well, the idea that God wouldn't send someone to hell is basically saying that a judge would be unjust. that they would be wrong for them to punish crime. Sin is a crime against God primarily. And if you sin against God, the reason why hell is forever, the reason why it's not temporary

is because you've primarily sinned against an eternal God. The Bible says that basically unbelievers will pay an account to God. What that means is that they've sinned in a way where they need to pay for that punishment, literally pay for it. Well, you can't pay for, you can't pay a temporary, how'd I say? You can't have a temporary punishment for an eternal sin.

So hell is necessary because God is just. God has to punish sin. He can't simply ignore it. If he ignores that sin, then he is unjust. The same way that a judge who ignores a murder would be unjust if it is not punish it. Is hell just the absence of. heaven? No, hell is actually the presence of God, but in his wrath. So we oftentimes say that whether hell is the absence of heaven or hell is the absence of God, but no, the more,

frankly, the more terrifying thing about hell is that God is there, except all of his kindness and his mercy and his grace is not there. It's just his wrath. Where heaven is, is God is there too. God is present there too, obviously, but it's all of his goodness and his and his grace and his love for his people. I think that this subject and talking about what happens when we die, what happens at the end of the world, all of this can be really, really scary for people, even Christians. So how can somebody overcome their fear when it comes to listening to what's written about in the book of Revelation. You know, that's a good question. The Bible, especially that book, the Apostle John, who wrote that book, is that he is saying, he's writing these things to give us hope, not fear.

When I first read it too, I was very fearful. But it's really meant to give us hope that essentially really God wins, that those who trust in him while we're going to have suffering in this world, while this world will deal, will suffer the wrath of God, that there will be injustice in many ways. But the reality is, is that the book of Revelation is not for us to be fearful. Now, if you're not a believer, I have to be frank, if you're not a Christian, then yeah, there is fear. The Bible says that God, Christ said, that do not fear those who can just kill the body, but fear the one who can kill the body and then throw their body into hell. that is God saying you should fear him if you're not believing in him if you're not repenting

and trusting in Christ for your salvation. What is predestination? Is it biblical? And what does it mean when it comes to Christ's death and then his resurrection? That's a great question. I mentioned earlier that I'm a Calvinist. Yes. A Calvinist basically means that I believe that God is completely sovereign, which means that

God is in complete control of everything. In the Bible, I believe it's Proverbs, aware the Bible says that we make our plans, but as the Lord who orders our steps. That basically means that in a sense we have free will, but even our free will is really bound by the sovereignty of God in the sense that God controls everything. So when it comes to predestination, it really means that everything thing that happens is ordained by God. And then the people that don't consider themselves to be Calvinists, who are Christians, the

free will thing, that's like a point of contention, right? Yeah. Explain that. So there are some to be fair, so Armenians would be the non-Calvinists. They believe that God is sovereign too. They would say that. Although they would say

in a sense it's limited to our free will, which basically means that God is not sovereign, is what I would say as an argument against them. But generally, you know, we all acknowledge that there is free will, but what I would say is that we have a free will, but we're bound by our nature in a sense that you're free to do whatever you want as a human, but you can't go past what your nature dictates. So, for example, I can't fly. I may have the free will to fly, but I can't because my nature prevents it. Exactly from being able to do so. So in the sentiment of

a similar way, when we, Calvin said that we don't have free will, what we mean is that an unbeliever is not, is someone who is dead in their soul, that they can't on their own choose God unless God himself chooses them first, which is why Christ, I think in John 17, says to his disciples, you did not choose me, but I chose you. So predestination basically means that before the foundation of the world, which is Ephesians 1, that the Bible says that, before the foundation of the world, before we were born, before the earth was created, God had already ordained that he would predestine some to salvation. And this is something that, like, people spend hours within Christianity debating, right?

So it's not like, I mean, we could do a whole podcast episode on just that. And I know that some people disagree. But that's not, that's like a point of contention within Christianity. That's not some of those people are going to go to heaven and some are. And it's just like a, I don't know, what do you say? Like, it's this, I don't know if stylistic is the right word, but it's, but that, but somebody who does not consider themselves to be Calvinist, but they are saved. Yeah. They're not going to not go to heaven.

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is not something that would disqualify someone from being a picture. Right. Okay. That's why I want to stylish. And by the way, I know that a lot of this, some of my listeners are going to be like, I know this. Let's get to the juice.

But then I'm thinking of my listeners who have never heard this before and how, you know, that's why I'm spending time with him to break this down. Yeah. Yeah. about what you said. I was a Christian before I became a Calvinist, right? I didn't become a Christian when I was a Calvinist. So Calvinism is really just now, I think it's biblical. I think it's the correct view of seeing what the Bible says. Nevertheless, yeah, my mom, who is my hero in the faith, is an Armenian. And that's okay. We just have a difference of opinion when it comes to that. Now we're getting into the juice. What signs will there be to tell us that we're getting close to the end? times. So this is perhaps going to be the most controversial part of it is conversation yeah because in the same way that you have different kinds of Christians when it comes to denominations you have Baptist Presbyterians Dutch reform Methodists all that

stuff you also have difference of opinions when it comes to the end times so like purgatory and all those different things or even more. Pergatory is more what Catholics believe Protestants do not believe in purgatory. Right. But I mean in terms of even the events leading up to Christ's return. I thought this was very clear. Yeah, but I know. You're telling me something new.

Yeah. So you have several views of, you have, I would say three main views when it comes to this thing. You have people like me, which we are a millennialist. I'll explain what that is very briefly. It can get very complicated. And I'm not even an expert on this stuff whatsoever. You have post-millennialist and then you have pre-millennialists who are also oftentimes, not all the time, but dispensationalist.

I can tell from the question that a lot of, I would say perhaps most questions today tend to fall into the premillennialist dispensationalist side. basically that's a left behind kind of thinking. Yeah, I was going to ask you if one day we're going to wake up and there's going to be piles of clothes everywhere in public. Yeah, yeah. It's, I don't take, I don't hold that view. Okay.

Maybe most people today hold that view. Most Christians today probably hold that view. And I used to hold that view. But is that warped really by Christian culture, movies like Left Behind? Yes, yes. I don't think, no, someone who's agree with me, but I don't think the Bible really says that. You want to know something hilarious. So I had an ex-boyfriend who, when his mom was mad and, you know, like he was getting in trouble when he was a little boy, he would put a pile of clothes like somewhere in the living room or on the stairs or something.

And he would like pout somewhere and hide and try to punish his mom by being like, look, I got raptured and you're left behind. Well, I'll add to that story. When I did hold to that view of the rapture, I had, there was one night, it was just, I was working, I was working on. all night. It was a late shift and I just slept through the like the entire day. I was exhausted. I woke up and it was a stormy night and I couldn't find anybody in my neighborhood basically. And I'm like, oh no. Oh no. And then I called the most Christian person I knew. And when he picked up, I said, okay, if he's still here, then the rapture hasn't happened yet. If he had, if he didn't pick up, I would be, you know, quite nervous. But I don't hold to that view. I know many people do.

Okay. But what I believe is that, and I would say I think this is throughout church history, this has been generally the norm for Christians to believe, which is that we are living in the end times today, but we've been living in the end times really since Christ went to heaven. That at any moment Christ can return, that there aren't specific signs and wonders that need to happen before Christ returns. You know, we don't know. So it's not like wars and all of this?

No, no. I think some of the texts that people understand is saying that there needs to be a War III of sorts for Christ to return, the apocalypse and things like that, I don't believe that is accurate. I think that the Bible does say that we are living in the end times now. And the Bible was written, at least when the Apostle Paul said that, it was 2,000 years ago. And the apostle Paul was suggesting to his audience at that time that Christ could return at any moment, even in their time, 2,000 years ago. So. Yeah, so time is running out.

So I believe that Christ, there's nothing keeping Christ from coming back tonight, but yet it could also be another 2,000 years. We don't know. So then what is the rapture exactly and what does the Bible say will happen during it? Yeah. So there are some who believe, that the Bible is talking about in the rapture, that people just disappear and things like that. I don't think that's what's going to happen. Again, a lot of my favorite people believe that. My mom believes that. My favorite, a lot of my favorite pastors and preachers believe that too. But I believe the rapture is simply another way to refer to the second coming of Christ, where Christ will return. And the Bible says that all eyes will see him when he returns. So the believers will

see him and we will ascend. So we will be cut up in the air is what the Bible says with him. So he will come. Like floating up. Yes. Yeah. I like the visuals. I like the visuals of what you think, you know, based on scripture, what it will actually look like. Yeah. Yeah. And so I was just telling you that I don't like flights whatsoever. So I'm like, huh, I'm going to be afraid when that happens. Yeah. Let me tell you the funniest thing is that Samuel said on his way flying to Phoenix or record this podcast today that they were experiencing insane turbulence. And I was like, of course that was happening on your way to film a podcast about the end times.

Yeah, it was, it was, I was quite nervous. But yeah, so I believe the rapture is really another word for a second coming of Christ where we all eyes will see him, unbelievers or believers. And I think, I know the Bible does say that when he returns, there will be the resurrection of the dead. and then there'll be judgments right away. There's some who think that there will be the seven years tribulation before that and there'll be the rapture where, again, people will disappear

and then the Antichrist will come or will appear in the seven years. But I do believe it in Antichrist, but I don't believe that it will happen in the way that the left behind books kind of suggest. Okay, I'm very glad that you brought that up because I have a lot of questions about the Antichrist. According to the Bible, once all Christ followers are remembered, moved from the earth. There's going to be a seven-year tribulation. This is when things are going to go like peak depravity, right?

Yeah. So I'm, see, your audience is going to be like, oh, man, this guy. Because, because, so I think we are already in a tribulation. Well, I mean, it's very Sodom and Gomorrah-e. Yeah. This is obviously not like a very serious theological podcast. I mean, you know, coming from me. the way I'm saying stuff. But like when I think about people transitioning, genders and all of this

kind of stuff, I'm like, that can't be good. That certainly isn't a sign on the other direction. Yeah. I mean, we live in a chaotic world. But I would even say that, you know, if you look at the first, the reason why the Apostle Paul wrote first and second Thessalonians is that there were people in the early church in the first century Christians who were deathly afraid because they were suffering. There were wars happening. And he was reminding them, some of them were not even going to work because they thought, well, definitely, Christ is coming back in a minute. So what's the point of even working? He said, hey, go back to work because you don't know when he will return.

I say that because we have been in the tribulation really since the beginning of the church. You've had Christians being persecuted by the Romans and by the religious leaders in Israel. And even now, over the last hundred years, I think, you've had more. Christians dying in that time than in ever before combined in church history. So what I'm saying is that I think the seven-year tribulation, speaking of symbols, is really symbolic. I don't think it's a literal seven years. Interesting.

And now, and this is what you're talking about is controversial. Yes. So some people do believe no, it's a literal seven years. Yes, yeah. Some do. And again, this is not, it's okay to have disagreements on this. I just feel like there's a lot of numbers. in Revelation.

Yeah. Because we've got the seven churches. We've got 666, the seven-year tribulation, a thousand years, you know. Yeah. Yeah. But my view of that is that it's mostly symbolic. I don't believe that those numbers are literal in that way. So I know some take that view and that's okay.

But I think when you look at the tribulation, for example, we have, it wouldn't be, if, you know, the seven-year tribulation that some people believe, it wouldn't really be any different than what's been happening in the church right now. Oftentimes we're thinking about these things from our American context. But in Nigeria,

Christians are already suffering. That's a really good point. In, you know, in first century, Israel or, you know, the Roman Empire, you had people suffering persecution there as well too. So China, right,

in the Middle East, you have so many Christians who are already in a tribulation and they're really suffering from an Antichrist. So then is it possible that the Antichrist is actually already here? Yes.

Even 2,000 years ago, the Apostle, the Apostle John said that there are many Antichrist in the world. So let's remember, right? Christ says that whoever is not with me is against me. Yes. So if you're against Christ, you're an Antichrist.

That's what it means to be Antichrist. So every single person who is not a Christian. is an antichrist. So then are you saying that one of the symbolism things that you don't necessarily agree with other Christians on is that you think that the Antichrist isn't necessarily one person. Yeah. It could be many. Yeah. Now, I believe that.

And if you've ever met a leftist, then you know that's definitely correct. Just kidding. Just kidding. Yeah. No, you're not. No, you're not. But, yeah, again, the Apostle John says that, right, that there are many Antichrist in the world. And he was referring to false teachers.

or people who hate Christ. So I do believe that there could be a, and it does seem to be that there is going to be, how do I, an antichrist in that someone who really will embody Satan in a ways that other antichrist won't or can't. But primarily to be an antichrist really means to be a false teacher, somebody who hates Christ, somebody. So I would say that Hollywood is antichrist.

I would say that Islam is Antichrist. Anything that is against Christ is Antichrist. I actually ran out of my good rancher steaks a couple days ago, but I was craving red meat. So I went to one of those real crunchy organic grocery stores to pick up an organic grass-fed rabbi. Now, it's been a while since I've picked up steak like that from the store, but I was like, whatever, it's one night I'm sure it'll be just as good. when I tell you it was one of the worst stakes I have ever had.

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Good Ranchers.com slash Clark with Code Clark for $20 off any box. That's good ranchers.com slash Clark with Code Clark. Good Ranchers. American Meat delivered. So then when it comes to the number 666, the mark of the beast, could it be any sort of mark? Because this is another thing. Everybody's talking about these chips that, you know, everyone wants to put in us. Some Christians are like, guys, that's not it.

It's going to be a literal 666 tattoo on your hand or whatever. Some say, no, it's going to be the chip. Yeah. What are your thoughts? You know, it's funny. I think it was just yesterday. One of my friends, I'm originally from Canada, as you know. And apparently Canada is going to have digital IDs now.

And one of my friends said, oh, oh, Sam. You know, and I said, you know, with any, you know, Canada, I mean, not talk about antichrist and, you know, tribulation there, right? But I also think the mark of the beast is also not literal. I think it's symbolic. I think it signals control of the mind and control in your hands. So that could be our freaking iPhones. Yeah, so any, I think, I think the mark of the beast is, is a person who is, who is not, who is not with Christ, right?

So the mark of the beast is a person. No, I think the mark of the beast is somebody is, is a sign that somebody is controlled by, by Satan, which is really every unbeliever, right? So a lot of times, so for example, when it came to the vaccine, a lot of people were very afraid. that the vaccine could be the mark of the beast. I don't think so. Right. But also, according to scripture, you have to choose to get that mark. Like, you know what you're doing, right? Because they're saying you'll be able to get food with or without this or you won't. And so then people are going to have to, even self-proclaiming Christians, right, are going to have to make that choice then. Am I going to get this so I can feed myself and my family or no?

Yeah. So I think a lot of Christians hold a different view. But I would say that even then it's referring to allegiance to Christ. So, for example, if you're a Christian in this society, you are going to be, you're going to suffer one way or another. Again, if you're in Nigeria, you're in China, you're in the Middle East and you're a Christian, you're going to suffer financial losses over this issue. Or even now in our society, if you reject leftist thought, if you reject a lot of the anti-Christian messages going around, you will suffer economically and financially over this issue. And I think the mark of the beast is referring to that. And there are people who do make an active choice.

Everybody who follows Christ, by the grace of God, they choose to follow him because Christ first chooses them. But those who do not choose him are those who choose the mark of the beast, who choose symbolically to identify with Satan. What are the seven churches that Revelation talks about? I think he's, it's referring to actual churches in the, it's referring to actual churches in the in the early church. But it's also, in our time for us to understand what he's saying,

it's dealing with different kinds of churches in general in terms of whether they're following Christ and some of their struggles. So it's a sincere letter to churches in that time. But it's also really, again, I think symbolically, dealing with different kinds of churches and whether there are false churches or whether they are healthy churches or whether there are churches that are being tempted to reject Christ and follow a false gospel.

I mean, immediately, I think Hill Song, Bethel. You said it. Yeah, I would say that Bethel or Hillsong, and I used to really love especially Hillsong, but they teach prosperity gospel, they teach a word of faith gospel. That is not in line with what the Bible teaches. Yeah. I think that's important. And that's a very hard pill for a lot of people to swallow.

I think a lot of people are like, okay, okay, I understand that biblically their teachings may not be good, but I love the music. And I mean, I discussed this in depth with Doreen Virtue on season one of the podcast. And so we went into that if that's something you're interested in. But I had to say that when you brought that up. Well, if the shoe fits. Is it possible? Now, this floored me when I started to think about this.

Is it possible that the United States won't even. even exist when the end times happen? It's possible. I mean, Rome was the, I mean, Rome was America, you know, a thousand or two thousand years ago. And Rome fell infamously. And yeah, it's very, very possible that when Christ returns, America will not be America, that it will, again, if Christ can come back in 2000 years and not perhaps just two days from now or two years from now. 2,000 years from now, America perhaps will not exist as a country. Now, that's not saying we want that, but the reality is we really don't know when Christ will

return. No one can predict for 2,000 years, people have been trying to say Christ will come at a certain time, and clearly they've all been wrong over the last 2,000 years. So it's very possible that, yeah, when Christ returns, that America will not be, will not be around. Now, something that conservatives, I think, say a lot and get caught up in, and this may or may not be correct, but I think naturally they want to say and assume that the Antichrist will be somebody who's in progressive politics. This is going to be a staunch leftist. You know what I mean? That's running child drag shows or something. But I mean, is there any indication that the

Antichrist will have anything to do with progressive or conservative politics? Yeah. This is going to offend a of people probably, but the Bible says that Satan appears as an angel of light, which means that he appears as an innocent good guy. If you're conservative, you're not going to embrace an antichrist if they are a progressive. You're much more likely to embrace an antichrist if they appear like a good conservative. I don't know. Again, there are many antichrist, and I do believe that there will be a particular leader that will be an antichrist, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were a conservative. Right. But if they're openly conservative, though, then the people on the left aren't necessarily, okay, so this is what I'm trying to wrap my head around, because you're saying,

well, if it's a progressive, then the conservatives aren't going to fall for them. And the Bible says this is going to be somebody that everybody falls for and thinks is like the best person. But then the left wouldn't fall for them either. But are you saying because the left is already predominantly, they're not Christian, then like they're out of the equation? Yeah. I don't know how it will all fall together. But we do know that the, that, so you have to remember that and that that conservatives, progressives, leftists, all these groups, if they're not Christians, while they may disagree on certain things,

on the essential things, they're united. So just to give an example, oftentimes say that white supremacists and critical race theories, and we all know this, but they're on the same side, but they think they're different, but they're in the same side. Yep. And I think it's similar, sadly, with just conservatives and leftists in general, if they are in. If they are different, but they're in the same side. And they're not Christians. Just worshiping political leaders and stuff. Yes. I fully agree.

Yeah. Or again, as Christ said, that if you're not with me, you're against me. So it wouldn't really surprise me if there was a leader that was able to unify leftists and conservatives against Christ. Because the reality is, again, if you're not with Christ, whether you are a conservative or a liberal, you've embraced Antichrist theology. Why do you think every generation feels like we are the people who are going to experience Jesus coming back? Is that just natural?

It is natural. It's because there's nothing new under the sun, right? So, again, as I mentioned, even in the Apostle Paul's time, in the early church, they rightly believed that Christ could come back at any moment. It is natural for us to believe that Christ will return in our lifetime because the Bible does suggest, again, there's nothing holding him back from returning at any moment. minute. Therefore, when we see so much chaos in our society, and generally, oftentimes, you know, one generation is seeing how their generation is getting worse than the other. And they think this can't possibly go on past our lifetime. And that naturally leads to them thinking that, yeah, Christ has to return back, you know, in our generation. But that's, of course,

not always, well, not always. It hasn't been the case for 2,000 years. So because there's nothing new end of the sun because sin just continues to increase people tend to think that way. What is important to understand about Israel in regards to the end times? The Bible says that all Israel shall be saved or will be saved. It doesn't mean that every single Jew will be a believer, the same way that not every single Gentile will be a believer. But it does mean that God has a special covenant with Israel that will lead to, that will have a major impact in his return. But in terms of how that will happen exactly, I don't know. But what I do know is, is that for a long time, obviously, where we're seeing so many.

So many Jewish Christians, not messianic Christians, where the gospel is being preached to all people across the world. And of course, a lot of Jews have also embraced Christ himself. So in terms of the end times, again, there are different views on how this will happen. There are many who believe that Israel will become a Jewish, will become a Christian nation. I'm not quite sure of that. But I do know that the new Jerusalem is a sign again of God's special relationship with Israel as through his covenant. I have to ask, and I'm just scared to ask it because I know I'm going to get rung for this. But where do we go immediately after death?

I had mentioned purgatory earlier. Is there any biblical support for purgatory? I know there are a few Catholics. Quite a few. Which is great. I love the Catholic cute servatives. We just disagree. Yeah.

No. There isn't any biblical support for it whatsoever. There really isn't. The Bible is very clear that absent, if you're a believer, absent from the flesh is to be present with Christ. And then if an unbeliever, the Bible says is that, I'm forgetting where it says, there's death and then judgment. it's immediate. When you die, you are either with Christ or you are in hell. There is no in between.

There is no, God is not, it's schizophrenic where he's not sure where you stand. If you're not with Christ, you will be, you will be in hell, not purgatory. Do you feel that? That's the Catholics coming first. Okay. Based on scripture, I'm very excited to ask this question. Based on scripture, what will heaven be like? We know, it's funny, I was having to talk with my wife about this, Annie.

And we oftentimes over spiritualize heaven to some extent. When we look at the Garden of Eden and we have a very brief look as to what it was, but things like work came before the fall. Yes, I have questions about this. We oftentimes think that work is a result of the fall because, let's face it, because of sin. No, but Adam and Eve's jobs were to take care of the garden. That's work. Exactly.

They were gardeners. Exactly. And then also we know that heaven is not somewhere in the clouds, right? Heaven will be on a new earth, right, a new Jerusalem. So that right there is mind-blowing to a lot of people probably. Yeah. So heaven will be, will be us in a glorified body, right? We will have a body, but without, without decay, without sin, without the fall. So we'll have a glorified body. There will be no sin. We will be with God. He will be our God, and we will be his people, as Revelation says. And we will have complete joy in him forever. We'll be worship in Christ, but we will also. also be doing work. I don't know what that would look like. I was not very clear on that, but we know that we would do the things that God had created Adam and Eve to do in the Garden of Eden.

But now it will be even better because now we will not just be made in his image, but that would be made in the image of Christ because of Christ's death and resurrection. So it will be an even greater, it will be better news than anything that Adam and Eve had before the fall. So we brought up our mutual friend, Ali Beth Stecky, and I love, she had a episode a couple months ago that I loved. And she was talking about how all of us will have a job in heaven. And then I started thinking about what job would I want to be my heavenly job? If God asked you, Samuel, what do you want to do in heaven? And you could have any job in heaven.

What would you want your heaven job to be? You know, honestly, you'd be writing. I love that. That's my, that's what I love. And you know, you think there will be a newspaper in heaven? Perhaps. I don't know.

But, you know, it's a great question because God gives us gifts for a reason. Yeah. And again, I don't want to speculate too much, but I struggle to believe that we're going to be entirely different people. We're not. We're going to be who we are without sin. So the same skills that we have on earth, I believe we're going to have in heaven. So maybe I'll host the heaven podcast. You'll be the editor of the heaven newspaper.

I love it. I love it. Although there will be no fake news in heaven. No, no. Okay, so another hot take I have about heaven is that I don't think dogs go to heaven. I think you're correct in part because I hate dogs. I don't either. Now people are like, oh, they are really going to hell, hell.

One of the things I love most about Annie is that she doesn't like dogs either. If she liked dogs, this couldn't work. I'm not a pet person. Yeah. Yeah. We're the same way. I can't stand pets. I don't mind other people's pets, but I don't want to have a pet.

Yep. I'm the same way. But I, I, I, there, there are indications that there will be animals in heaven. But when it comes to dogs, I, I don't quite know. I mean, we don't know what kind of animals do not have souls, right? Yeah. So, but in terms of, again, the new earth and a new heaven, in a new earth, it's plausible that there would be animals in this new earth as well, too. Since again, they proceed to fall as well, too, that it is possible.

With dogs, though, I'm assuming that, no, there has to be something better than dogs there. Maybe there will be like, if dogs go to heaven, there will be the biggest fire hydrant you've ever seen. Okay. Will we be married in heaven? No. Well, yes and no. In that there will be one wedding in heaven and is the glorious wedding between Christ and his bride. Which is the church? The church. But individual marriages, no. The Bible Christ says that there will be no marriages in heaven. Do you think we'll know our spouses in heaven or like it's just somebody you wave to and you're like, hey, but you don't know of. any of your past earthly connection to each other?

Yeah, I, every indication points to us knowing people. Because, you know, if we're going to be worshiping God and we will be, of course, it's because we will be grateful for everything that we remember from our time on Earth. And that includes his blessings in, you know, marriage and family. and like I cherish my mom, for example. She's been a, had a huge impact on my life. I can't imagine that I would be in heaven and that I would not be blessing God

and praising God for his mercy and his love for me through my mom. So in heaven, all of us will be a family, in the same way that every Christian is a sibling to another Christian. But in terms of, yeah, so I think we will remember all the people we know.

But, yeah, but it wouldn't, I'm not quite sure how it will look, right? Because, again, the Bible is not very clear on that. Yeah. So then it's safe to say you do believe that we will be reconnected to lost loved ones in heaven. Yes, yes. That's going to be really comforting for people to hear, I think. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know if I should say this because she's still alive and I'm very glad she is.

But as I get older and I see a lot of my friends losing their parents, I'm increasingly thinking about how, you know, if you're watching this, I'm not saying, I'm just saying that, you know, inevitably you realize that your parents will not always be with you. All your friends will be with you. I have friends as you get older, you experience friends dying. And I'm like, I will see them again. Yeah.

And that's comforting. So when we have that hope, I can't imagine that we would not remember our loved ones when we are in heaven. So how can somebody be absolutely sure that they will go to heaven? On our own, on our own, no matter what you do, all your works, no matter how much you pray, no matter how much you go to church, no matter how good you try to be, on your own. on your own, as the Bible says, there is nothing good in you, nothing. If you're just trusting in yourself, you have no hope of trusting that you really are a Christian. But if you are trusting that God became a man through a miraculous virgin birth, that in Christ he lived a perfect life, that he died on the cross, taking your sins,

and then offering you, giving you his righteousness, so that if you have faith in him, that if you believe in him, God declares you righteous, that God being just, he's able to punish your sins in Christ and declare you righteous because of his son. So you can be sure that you are a Christian

if you simply believe in who Christ is and what he is done and that he died and rose again for your, justification and that right now he's interceding on your behalf and he will return soon to glorify you. So you can have hope simply because of Christ. Is salvation ever something that we can lose? If we've prayed that prayer before, if we've repented of our sins, if we've known that Christ is our savior, is it something that we can lose and then gain back or once saved or you always saved? It's important to say that a prayer doesn't necessarily save. anybody. A lot of people have the sinner's prayer. Saying words doesn't save you. It is the belief and

the genuine repentance, the genuine dependence on Christ, the genuine desire to follow him, right? But even then, again, it's not even, it is our faith in his death and resurrection. It is what Christ has done who saves us, and we receive it by faith. But when somebody believes in Christ, They are saved. In John 10, Christ says that my sheep follow me. My sheep hear in my voice. They follow me. And I will never, ever lose them.

So Christ has promised. The Bible also says, this is the Apostle Paul, who says that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion. Christ is saying, I will finish what I have started. We can fail, but God cannot fail. Yeah. So if you become a Christian, if you genuinely follow Christ, it will be him that will be, even if he has to drag you. He's been dragging me, you know, for a long time.

All of us. Yeah. He will drag us by his grace to completion. So if you are saved, you will stay saved. What do you want to say to people listening? that are like, well, I totally disagreed with this guy's theology. That's okay. I've had a change of mind in my theology, so I've disagreed with myself in the past.

Yeah. So that's okay. It's okay to disagree with me. Just don't disagree with what God says in the Bible. So look at the Bible yourself, read the Bible yourself. And I'm not inspired. I'm not authoritative on my own, but the Bible is authoritative. if the Bible is reliable.

So disagree with me, that's okay. You'd be wrong, but you can disagree with me. But just read your Bible and believe what it says. Talk about where people can read more of your work and follow you on social media. Yeah, people can find me on slow to write.com. They can find me on social media at slow to write. And since it is Easter, by now, I will have plenty of videos.

I'm doing a podcast. Oh, congratulations. Thank you. I figure, let me just try and copy you a little bit. Yes. Well, oh my gosh. Wait, so do you know the name or anything yet? So slow to write.

Podcast, slow to speak. Brilliant. I know. Brilliant. Seriously, that is so good. That's so good. I thought it was cheesy. No, I love it.

Okay, so is it a theology podcast, I'm assuming. Yeah, it'll be theology, culture, things like that. So news happening in the day but through a biblical lens type of thing? Yeah. That's awesome.

Okay. And so I'm assuming that I'll be anywhere you get your podcast so people can find it right now and subscribe? Yes. How exciting.

See, we're recording this in the past, but this will be in the future. So that's awesome. Okay, so I've never asked a guest to do this. But I would love it. Do you think you could

pray over my audience before we go today? Yeah, yeah. I would love that. I love that. Father, we thank you for your grace. We thank you for your Son, Jesus Christ. We thank you that all of us, though we are sinners, we can come to you and

ask you for mercy, ask you for grace because of your son, Jesus Christ, because of his life, death, and resurrection. Father, we pray that we would trust, not in anything, not in any other voice, but your voice, that we would rely on your word, that we would read your word, that we would believe your word, and we would obey your word. So, Father, help us not to just be. so focused on the leftist and conservative thinking. But let us remember that what is most important is that are we with Christ or not? That are we saved? Are we believing in your son, Jesus Christ?

Father, help us. So, Father, bless the people who are listening. Father, if people have heard the gospel today, that let them choose to follow you. Let them choose to repent and believe in your son, Jesus Christ. In Christ, I pray. Amen. Amen. Thank you, Samuel, for coming on the spillover.

Thank you. Just to be straight up with you, this subject matter is so, so, so over my head. And debating theology really gives me a headache. So I wanted to do an episode like this for Easter weekend. But also, if you really like this, unfortunately, I probably won't do anything similar again because it is just not within my interview hosting comfort zone. But I really adore Samuel and his wife, Annie, who came to. And I was just glad that he could be the person that I did have this conversation with.

also cannot wait for his podcast slow to speak to come out, which I believe is coming out this month. I also want to say, for my Catholic cuties, I hope that you'll have a sense of humor about my jokes and not burn me at the stake. The cute servantist Facebook group is a great place to hash out your thoughts on this conversation in all things end times. Next week, I am having the author of one of my all-time favorite parenting books on. I have absolutely raved about it. So maybe you can guess who it is. We're focusing on kids being in nature and outside play. Every week, the spillover drops Thursdays at 9 p.m. Pacific or midnight Eastern on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

And if you want the visual version of this podcast, subscribe to Poplitics on YouTube. I'm Alex Clark, and this is The Spillover. Love you, mean it. Bye.