Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - “False Teachers, Spiritual Gifts, & False Converts.” - American Gospel with Costi Hinn

Episode Date: November 3, 2023

Why is the prosperity gospel dangerous and heretical? What is really happening when people have seizures, speak in tongues, or perform “healing” at church? Is any of it biblical? Pastor Costi Hinn witnessed it all under the teachings of his superstar uncle, and televangelist, Benny Hinn, but left to pursue the truth. Alex and Costi discuss the consequences of bad theology, how to discern if a pastor is biblically sound, and concerns about popular mega churches and pastors.Follow Costi on...

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For more info and tickets, visit AMFest.com and use code Pauplitics for a discount on general admission. That's AMFest.com with Code Pauplitics for a discount on general admission. Is the greatest threat to the church, not the culture outside of it, but the false teachers inside? The prosperity gospel has become big business for a lot of pastors. Luxury cars, private jets, trendy outfits and viral views. Their pastors draw crowds of tens of thousands of people and are social media influencers. But is anything they're saying rooted in biblical truth? What about things like divine healing, speaking in tongues, fainting or convulsing on the floors?

Is that the Spirit of God at work? We're demons. Today's guest has a unique take on all of this because he was raised in it. He's the nephew of televangelist Benny Hinn, who became famous worldwide for his services, where he'd perform miracles, and I'm saying that in quotes, and heal people of everything from paralyization to blindness.

My guest left the prosperity gospel for the true gospel, became a Christian, and now is the pastor of Shepard's House Bible Church in Chandler, I asked him not only about his story and what was really going on when people were fainting and shaking while his uncle was preaching, but to also speak on biblical concerns surrounding popular megachurches and pastors like Bethel and Stephen Ferdick of Elevation Church, to name a few. Please welcome Costi Hinn to the spillover. I get slammed in the comments every single time I mention, you know, certain mega churches or pastors being false teachers. So I just thought, I'm going to let someone else be the bad guy for once.

All right, sign me up. You said, that's fine. You said, we will talk about hard things today in a kind way. Yes, I think you can do both. And maybe this is lost in our society a little bit, where if you don't agree with me, I cancel you. And then you're done. But I think we should do a better job disagreeing agreeably. And so, yeah, we can be nice.

We can love people, be kind. And yet say hard things. because one of my favorite kind of mentor quotes from a brother that walked with me through some hard seasons in life, he said, change equals resistance, resistance equals growth. There will be no change without some resistance. So I need to come at you. I need to be sandpaper and that's smooth. And I need that too from people in my life. So we should say hard things. It grows us. Well, there's this whole new genre of pastors in America specifically that, you know, have their Nike's on. They've got their leather jackets. They're driving a Bentley. they're viral on TikTok. They sound like they're giving TED talks every Sunday. Their church's music is dominating Christian radio. They claim that they're sharing the gospel. But you believe they are doing

unspeakable amounts of spiritual damage and possibly not even Christians themselves. So we're starting off very light here. Yes, we're right into it. We're right into it. So first, let me say, if somebody wears nice Nikes, I don't say all of them are heretics and blasphemers. I would say there is a type of preacher now that is appealing to our culture. And can I name one? I can say anything on this. So one of them in particular, I think is a great example. His name is Michael Todd. He's the pastor of Transformation Church in Tulsa, Oklahoma, big time guy. I would call him like the LeBron James. I know LeBron's getting old. Like we're almost over it. But LeBron James of preaching rolls up in his, you know, to the nine's Tesla. He's got his Louis Vuitton over bag, like man purse, whatever.

everything over his shoulders. He's rolling in, dressed at the nights, big time guy, big sermons, big personality, says a lot of things, a lot of sweat, a lot of shouting, a lot of hollering. And people love it. I mean, his sermons are watched by the millions. That is appealing to us now. I say us, just our culture, because I think we just like our big time players. It makes us feel like we're in the in crowd following these guys that are big time. What is wrong specifically about the gospel presentation that people like Joyce Meyer, Michael Todd, or Paula White give. Yeah, so I brought up Michael Todd. I appreciate you adding a few others in there. So on Michael Todd's church statement of faith, they actually say they believe the prosperity gospel. They

preach the prosperity gospel. Let me preface with this. Wealth is not a sin. It's not a sin to be rich. It's a responsibility. Also, as evil as the prosperity gospel is, let's be careful. there's no pendulum swing here where the poverty gospel now is really it. What's the poverty gospel? You got to be poor. Jesus was poor. You can't have nothing in that spiritual. This is a trend?

Well, it's a thing in the church today where it's called asceticism, so $10 word. Aceticism is, in the old days, the monks would like whip themselves if they had an evil thought or if they sinned. I mean, I'm telling you. So people do this today. They're like, you know, Alex, you just can have no money. Or as a pastor, so it's not a Tesla. and $2,000 Yeezys and like Louis Vuitton sweatsuits.

But, you know, instead, Jesus was poor, and we should be poor. So you can't have nothing. That's not what I'm saying or what anyone would be saying. Those preachers are saying, if you follow Jesus, if you believe that he's Lord and you follow him in faith, then you will be healthy, wealthy, and happy, because that's God's will. And where they get that from is a twist of like a passage like John 10. Jesus says the thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy, but I have come, that you might have have life and have it more abundantly. They're like, ooh, abundance. That means riches. He came that you'd

be the head, not the tail. If you're poor, if you're sick, if you're lonely, if you're experiencing broken relationships, you need Jesus. He's going to heal it all, fix it all, and he has called you to be at the top, not the bottom. And that appeals because we go, man, you're going to fix my situation. This Jesus is going to give me the American dream. I'm in. And that is so appealing. So that's the problem, and that's what they're preaching. Now you go, well, what's the rub? Jesus said, you're going to have trouble in this world. He told his disciples that. Actually, suffering is a part of the Christian life. He uses suffering. He will strengthen you in the midst of suffering. Also, if people are poor or sick, and we're like, well, you just need Jesus.

Jesus actually talked a great deal about the poor and how special they were and how much he cared for them. So then you've got a real issue. If you're suffering and you're sick and you believe in Christ, do you not have enough faith? Is not the Christian life? You've got a real issue there. And you start to then make the gospel about what you can get and it's all about you. And maybe this will ruin someone's day. But I think also it could save someone's life. The gospel is not about you. People are like, that's what? Of course, Jesus loves me. Okay, it's fine. It's not about you, though. The gospel is about God and his glory. He sent his son. He called you. He loved you. He laid his life down. You respond in faith to him. But this isn't about us. This is about him. And now even like business people and secular folks who don't even know Christ or say that they're Christians, what's like the number one principle they'll say all the time? They'll go, life's not about you. The minute it's not about you is the moment that you'll start being successful. I was listening to Jaco Willink the other day. I like Jocco. He's a good dude. Some of those guys on the cultural commentary. And he said, I'll tell you the secret to success and leadership. Number one

principle. You ready for this? And I'm like, bring it, Jocko. Like, give me the good stuff. And he goes, humility, humility, humility. And you're going, like, that's a Christian principle. Yeah. The way up is down. Jesus served and modeled service. He came and laid his life down. The gospel's not about us and all that we can get. It's about what God has done. So what they've done, and it's American preachers, they have turned the gospel into a sales pitch, just like we do in American consumerism. And I have a friend who's in Africa. He's like the Charles Spurgeon of Africa, like a famous, well-known preacher, but he's just faithful. He just wants to serve the Lord. He says, the prosperity gospel is the number one export from America to Africa. Why? Because you have people

in poverty and sickness. Same thing in South America. These people are like, wait, this is how you can get me out of the gutter. This is how you can heal. I got no modern medicine. My child is sick. They're going to die. And this guy on the TV or on the YouTube or whatever, because everyone has cell phones and media, or the guy who came and filled the stadium with this music and these promises of healing. When he comes, my baby will be healed. I'm in. And that is one of the most abusive false promises that we're seeing from a lot of that crowd. Okay, so that's how you would define prosperity gospel. How would you define what others call charismatic teaching? Well, yeah, I think it's wise to kind of compartmentalize and be careful with how we categorize people.

So, number one, you've got like just general Pentecostals, people that are part of the Assembly of God denomination, maybe some people watching this or even like, yeah, I'm a charismatic or I'm a Pentecostal. And that, they're not all crazy. There are extremists in every camp. So I'm going to use some terms here that maybe people aren't familiar with, but maybe people are and I'll define them. So what you have is, let's say you have charismatic theology and you have reformed theology. Reformed theology is like God is sovereign, even though a lot of charismatics believe that, but just to kind of create two pictures. God is sovereign and much more traditional and doctrine

and different conservative elements, less emotional and less expressive. Let's say that. In the reformed world, you have the hyper-reformed, which are, we stand there, we sing hymns, we read words sound doctrine, theology, no emotions allowed. You like raise your hands. You're like, Jesus, I love you. And they're like, shh. Like, you weirdo, you crazy charismatic, right? That's that extreme view. No music, no drums, or sorry, no, no, like piano, no drum, no acoustic guitar. It's like a very fundamentalist, almost like, do you even love Jesus? You seem so angry and so feisty and your tie seems so tight, like lighten up. So hyper-reformed would be an extreme. but not all reformed people are that way.

We don't want to paint them with a broad brush. Well, let's go over to the Charismatics. There are some sweet, charismatic Pentecostal folks that love Jesus. They believe in their private prayer language or speaking in tongues or they're like, I, you know, believe this or that. And they get a little emotional, and they lay hands on people, and they do the slain in the spirit stuff and fall. And you'll see that.

What about the snakes? Yeah, well, now can I, let's swing. Thank you, Alex. Take us there. So now swing the pendulum a little further and into hyper. charismatic extremism, the charismatic chaos, all of that, the snake handling. Does that still exist today? It does. And it's pretty mainstream. It can get really wild. You've got, and, you know,

like Bethel, I would put them in that category. Really? I would. They're doing fire tunnels. If you Google right now, just watching this. Someone's like, you put Bethel in the snake category? I put them in the hyper and here's the reason. It's sensationalistic. Like their guy, Seth Dahl, gets up. children's pastor at the time, gets up in the stage and says, Jesus appeared to me and he asked me to forgive. He asked me for forgiveness. You're like, what? He said some weird thing that he had a vision.

He calls it a vision or encounter where somebody had heard his feelings in the church. And Jesus came and apologized to him. You're like, why? You can't say that. Or Jen Johnson, super talented, great voice. Her and her husband, Brian, they lead like Bethel Music. She says the Holy Spirit is like the genie from Aladdin. and he's funny and he's sneaky and he's silly and I just wrote a book on some of that. I didn't

like blaster, but I'm like, this is an example. I'm not saying I know all their motives. So let's say some of them are well-intentioned. They just say the weirdest stuff. Like, you can't say that about God. Why? Because the Bible says things that are completely contradictory to what you're claiming. So wild claims. I'm not saying all chariomatics, but wild claims are in this category. So the snake handling and stuff, things can get extra weird. My uncle's, was in that group. He wore a white suit. His name is Benny Hin. He's waving his jacket. I mean, they've done Star Wars videos. Yeah. So your uncle Benny Hin was one of these famous pastors who would take his coat jacket and swing it around and people would start to fall over and convulse. And you worked

for him as a catcher. So as they're falling, you were catching them. And your entire family was at a time peddling the prosperity gospel. So I, I, I want to go there because this part of your story is so fascinating before we start talking about other churches and other pastors and all that. What did a typical Sunday look like for you working for your Uncle Benny Hen? Well, it wouldn't be on Sundays because the older I got, we rarely went to church on Sunday. And the reason is we'd say like, we are the church, we serve the church, we're the apostles of the church. We go heal the church and minister to the church. And then Sunday, especially when I was living in Orange County, it's like beach day, chill day. So right there,

we got some hypocrisy issues. But from that standpoint as well, working for him Thursday night, then Friday morning, and then Friday night were the Crusades. That's what we did. It was called the Healing Crusade. And what years were this? I worked for him 2003, well into 2004, all of 2003, and then all the way into 2004, and then I went to school and played baseball and all that stuff after that. So, but my dad worked for him all those years. But his ministry and like doing that goes all the way back into the 90s. So as a kid, get this, he would go rent the United Center in Chicago where Jordan played and all that packet with people. And we would go like check out the Bulls locker room, like go hang out because we're in the family and like in the green room and all that stuff.

So that's how big go to Dallas, the American Airlines arena, go to Toronto, Canada, because I'm originally from Canada in Vancouver, but go there and like what was called the Air Canada Center where the Toronto Maple Leafs play, and I'm a big Leafs fan. I love hockey. You know, packing out these arenas, he went all over the world and all over the nation doing that. Well, I worked for him. Like one time in India, verified. This is on YouTube. There's like old videos that show it was set up, show the people. We did like a land lease. Like you rent huge, huge properties, field after field. There was over a million people at the services. And what was it that he was doing that was drawing crowds of this size?

promising healing, promising that Jesus would heal them, promising that if they would believe the gospel, that this is what they could tap into. And you're talking about the most vulnerable in our society. And again, that's why I want to be so careful. Not every charismatic or Pentecostal believes this. We might have some disagreements on things like tongues. But there is an extreme wave of people. And why did I pick on Bethel? Well, Bill Johnson teaches the same thing that my uncle taught for decades. He'll literally say, it's God's will. It's always God's will to heal. And when he doesn't, the problem is you, your faith. You don't believe enough. Well, now we're abusing people. Somebody heat burdens on Alex Clark. If you just believe enough and you're through tears going, cost you, I believe. I believe. Why won't he heal me? Why won't he heal my deafness or my baby or my cancer? What's wrong with my faith? And I go, Alex, you just got to believe. And you're like, I do. I believe. Well, it may not be enough. Well, then does God not love me? Did he not? Well, you really need his power to be at work within you and to change your heart, Alex. Well, then he's not changing my heart, so he doesn't love me, he doesn't care. Why won't this work?

And you're now spiritually abused. And the Pharisees, which is often what I get called for calling out people or saying things like they are, they'll say, what a Pharisee, or you're a Pharisee. No, the Pharisees in the Bible were adding words to gods, heaping burdens on the people, adding to the laws, and abusing people, that's exactly what false teachers are doing. Whereas people like us that go, no, that's not right. That's not right. Watch out for this person or that person. People say, oh, what a bunch of religious judgmental Pharisees. Well, well, how would he explain to you guys what was going on? Like, I mean, did Benny actually think that he was healing people? Was he hiring actors? Like, what was going on? Well, the whole thing is a scam, but not everyone is in on it. So they would

emotionally manipulate people with music for hours. Explain how you could emotionally manipulate an audience with music in the church. If you come into a massive stadium, first of all, you feel all the feels right away. Kick the music on. I've got a choir. He had this whole, there was a whole song and dance as part of it. And he'd come out to the crescendo of this old hymn, how great thou are, and the band would play. And you'd you'd have the goosebumps and you'd lift your hands. They'd go up a key. And he would come out, his white suit. Lights would change. So we're talking now. We got, high production, just like if you go to a cold play concert or you're a Swifty and you go listen to Taylor Swift and all the lights are cute and you got the wristbands on, everyone holds it. And you're

just like, oh my goodness, this is the most amazing moment. Oh, and everyone gets goosebumps. You can produce the exact same thing. At church. At church. Totally. So emotional. Now, check this out. You're being emotionally primed for like an hour or two. Then he would say things. And this is where I would liken him and many others, not just picking on my uncle. to hypnotists. He will, and the power of suggestion, all psychosomatic. As I go, in just a few moments, Jesus is going to touch you.

And you're like, wow. And the music is playing in the background. And he wants to heal you. And he loves you. I know, I know this person right now up in the stadium, you're up in the balcony and you're wondering, does he even see me? Oh, he does see you.

And you're like, Whoa, I'm feeling the feel like this is sweet. And the music is playing. And then I tell you, Jesus is going to heal you tonight. I want you to put your hand. This is actually direct quotes. I want you to put your hand on the place where your sickness is. And he's going to touch you.

And you're like, I have kidney failure or I have some issue. I have asthma. And so you put your hand on your lungs. Ask him to heal you. Lord Jesus, please heal me. Please heal me. I'm tired of the asthma. I can't breathe or whatever. Or you put your hand on your kid. And I've just tapped into all of your felt needs. You're mine at that point. Anything I tell you

to do, you're going to do. I've got the music playing. There's a crowd of people. They would play the strings with these bells. I mean, you can, you'd listen to the services. It is so produced. And at the same time, I'm preparing you for some next phase. But is that possible? Is it possible to say, Jesus, wants to heal you and he's going to do it and he told me he's going to do it tonight? I mean, it's possible to say that, of course. Is it real? No.

So people would come up. There's like verified stories, story after story, where people, let's say you get to the stage. So I want you to line up on my right and my left, he would say, if you feel like God touched you. Well, of course, many people feel like God touched them. They go down, they line up. He invites them up. There are so many testimonies of people that came on the stage and were like, I'm healed. And they had like this adrenaline pump and they were all excited.

and the next day they go see their doctor and they're in worse condition. There are stories, and I did a special with CBC Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. It was really sad. They paired me with this gal who had gone to a service when she was very young. Then they brought a bunch of other stories of people

and people say, oh, these are all just disgruntled folks that were mad at God because they didn't get healed or they just want to attack Benny Han or whoever. I'm like, no, they would go and they were told, like, take your brace off or God's going to heal you or they even felt something. They felt better in the moment and some of them died. What? Oh, totally. There's stories of people giving their last money.

So the most heartbreaking emails or DMs I get are from people that say you have no idea. The stuff you said is exactly what we dealt with. My mother gave all of her last and was promised to healing and died three months later. Or my brain. brother went to the service. He felt the goosebumps. He felt like he was healed. He took his brace off. He was running around. Three months later, he died anyway. Or two months later, the doctor said your knees even worse. Like, it's in the moment adrenaline fires. I met a kid. This is a real story, a legitimate story. I met, he's not a kid anymore. He's a man. But he had cerebral palsy, and he went to Bethel. People wonder, like, what's the issue with Bethel? I'm not picking on people

to pick on him. He went to Bethel. And in that moment, they all got around him and they prayed for him. and he felt amazing. He felt loved. He felt seen. He felt heard. And they said, just throw those crutches, like you can walk. And so he tosses the crutches. And he said, I literally felt like I was healed. I felt this adrenaline. I never felt before. I was kind of walking better than I ever had. And I was like, I'm going to do it. They said, don't go back to those crutches. That's unbelief and a lack of faith. You don't do that. And he was like, should I go check with my doctor? They're like, no, doctors will speak negativity into your life and negativity over you. And you're going to lose your healing. Don't do it. So now we have spiritual abuse again. So he walks for days. He starts feeling

immense pain in his back and his legs. It's brutal. And I was talking real story in Los Angeles at a food truck. I won't name him, but I was standing with him while he's telling me the story through tears. These are very, very clear, vivid moments that I know these are real stories. And he goes, I'm sorry that I got mad at you over you warning me about Bethel a couple years ago. I was like, okay, what's going on? And we were at an event and he was there. I was like, what's he doing here? He was all into that movement.

So he tells me the whole story. I'm like, bro, I'm so sorry that you had to learn it that way. That would have never been the way that I wanted you to learn it. He's like, no, I ended up going to see my doctor. I was in worse shape than ever. I've been struggling with chronic pain now. Since then, when I did tell them and I tried to, I tried to at least explain to them, like maybe other people are getting healed because he's a nice guy.

Like, maybe other people are getting healed, but you should be more careful. Like, don't, we shouldn't be telling people to do things that. And they were like, oh, the doctors got to you. That spirit of negativity and that spirit of unbelief, that negative confession has stolen more healings than I can count. They'll say that. Why? It keeps their narrative going.

Now, let me go one step further. You go, why, costing? Like, come on. Why? What's the real play? 2nd Peter chapter 2 versus 1 to 3. You get to verse 3, Peter, the apostle Peter says, in their greed, they will exploit you. They love money.

and they love power. Those are the two biggest drivers. We drove Bentley's, Ferraris. I drove a Hummer in college. We shot for fun at Rodeo. My undershirts were Versacei, staying at the Burjal Arab on layovers in the Royal Suite, 25 grand a night, like rolling deep, living like Juan Soto and Manny Machado, if you're a baseball fan, living like Mike Trout, living like LeBron, multi-home, multi-million dollar, mansions. I mean, live in the, dream and flying on private planes saying like God has blessed us. You have got to be kidding me if you say the motive is anything. Or they're just sweet people. No, they are making millions and in some cases hundreds of millions of dollars off of the backs of people. So they've got to keep the

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That's N-I-M-I skincare.com with code Alex Clark or just find everything in the show notes. Do you think that your uncle, Benny Hinn, or other huge preachers, who are sharing the prosperity gospel are possessed? I think some of them are. So I'll say some strong things here. I think some of them are well-intentioned. They start out well-intentioned, and they find a niche. I think other guys like Bill Johnson is just a dude's a gamer, man.

Drives in Aston Martin, like just baller. Chris Vallaton, his right-hand prophet. He's got his own horses. I mean, these guys are living like kings. I think others, though, like Kenneth Copeland, if I was to pontificate with you on this for a moment, you heard of him? Oh yeah. Yeah. Everything about him scares me. I can't get over the eyes. Now, do I think most false teachers are directed by darkness, demons? For sure. They're preaching

the doctrine of demons. They're overtaken. They are on the payroll of darkness. But possession would be day by day, moment by moment, like a lifestyle under the control of the demonic. Kenneth Copeland would be one of my top candidates for that. that where I would say he is either one of the most demonically led men and scam artists on the face of the planet and needs to repent or he is completely possessed by demons and he has done so well for the kingdom of darkness. Have you ever seen a true divine healing while working for Benihin that you couldn't explain? No. Remember the video of your uncle and he he's like snapping to the deaf girl and he's like, do you hear me?

And she's like, yes. Yes. How do you explain that? Like, is it just, it's what you're saying where adrenaline is rushing and so she just is pretending or imagining it or is it or could it be a demon healing someone to further keep them in deception? Here's what I would say based on experience and that's all this is. A lot of those people are way more capable than we are led to believe on TV.

They have some hearing. and you snap your fingers next to the ear of a little girl who can hear a little bit and then they'll go with she, so she's deaf though, she's deaf, yes, completely, she's deaf, she's deaf, legally deaf or whatever.

Or her, in her peripheral, her eyes see you snap, her brain creates the noise. 100%. Sometimes the wheelchairs are the rented wheelchairs from the stadium and really conveniently end up on the stage.

Other times it's somebody's actual wheelchair and they can get up. Many people in wheelchairs are able to stand and they'll be like, they stand, here's another one, that people will limp across the stage. They're able to, and they kind of walk and waddle. And I remember this one really well. This was like a line. You would learn from watching. And then you would do it if you ever did it. I never got that far. I was supposed to. But you would say, now I know she's limping. I know if it was you. I know Alex looks like she's in a little bit pain right now. But you would be too if your legs were dead for 30 years. God's moving in power. You just keep exercising that faith and moving those legs, Sister Alex. God's going to complete what he started. I know.

You're laughing, but so many people are like, oh, it's true, it's true. And when you look at healing in the Bible, let's go back to Scripture. That's the authority. John chapter 5, 1 through 17, the healing at the pool of Bethesda, that man was there 38 years. Jesus says, pick up your palate and walk. And John records immediately, he picks up his, and dude is pumped. You think about when Peter and the apostles are like silver and gold, have I none, but that which I have, I'll give to you in the name of Jesus Christ,

and walk. We used to sing a song as kids. And it was about that man. And it was, can I sing it for a second? Sure. All right. Silver and gold, have I none. But that which I have, give I thee, in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk. And then as kids, we'd sing this. He was walking and leaping and praising God, walking and leaping and praying God. We'd sing that as kids, and we all jump around like crazy kids in our charismatic Pentecostal church. Isn't it so funny that the Bible, whenever people are healed. They're walking. They're leaping. They're running. They're talking. They're testifying. They're not limping. He was hobbling and limping. He barely healed. No. He was walking and leaping. The guy was carrying his palate in John 5. Yeah. Wasn't like, hey, let's help him off the stage now.

Go ahead, disciples. Help him with that wheelchair. It's been 38 years. He was carrying the palate. But was it acknowledged? Like was Benihin directing you guys working for him like, hey, so we're going to put this girl right here like, you know, she's totally crippled? For the television program completely. Like, what would he say? He would tell... So we had a VP of television. Like, I know these people. I grew up with their kids

that had job offers from ESPN, major networks. These guys are excellent. You know all the white trucks at like an NBA game? You go watch the Suns and there's all the white truck. That's what was outside the...

That was what was underneath in the parking area of the stadium. They were directed on what to put on television or not. The whole thing was produced. What you saw on TV was the best moments with all the cuts

and all the lights. You remember the star filters? the old star filters, and then the wide zoom as you switch angles or you switch to a new storyline, all of that, the highest production possible. And the better it was sold, oh my goodness, that was like, they would play that up so much for donors and say, look at all that's happening. How much money, if you had to estimate, was your uncle making? 88 to $100 million a year at the peak of the ministry. Did you at the time actually believe in what you were doing as a catcher?

Yes, and then with some questions. Like what were your questions? I saw a little girl brought to the back one time. Enlarged head. Body was deformed in a stretcher, like in a special whatever wheeled thing brought to the back. Parents were donors and I lost it. I went home or sorry, went back to the hotel, but home on the road. Went back to my hotel.

She didn't get healed. They prayed for her, whatever. some like empty little back to the green room like if you were a high donor you're like somebody you could you could come to the back to personally get prayed over by a benny or something for see my uncle hang out just like a you know concert you can go back and hang with the band or the famous guy and i remember like beating on my pillow that night and i was crying and i was begging god to heal that girl like why didn't he heal her it wrecked me like you talk about PTSD i'm fine now i've been to counseling and talk to mentors and

been disciple, then obviously got saved, what I believe, like, legitimately became a Christian. So the Lord's healed all that, but I think back to those moments, I can name you the cracks in the dam that started to come and eventually it all burst forth. But that was one of them. I was looking going, hold on, like something's not right. We can't heal. There was a gal in my high school, another one. She was like long blonde hair on the swim team, and I bring up the long blonde hair for a reason. She lost it all to cancer. And so it's very, like, distinct. And I remember, like, asking my family, like, let's just go heal her. Like, come on.

Like, this is our chance. And we used to think reform people or Baptist people or people that were into doctrine were dead, like all those dead churches. Like, we have the power. They've got some, they preach the Bible, but they're a little boring. Like, we got the power. We got the Holy Spirit. And so I'm like, let's go healer.

And the response to us, well, they don't have enough faith. They don't believe like we do. It won't work. And I'm thinking, if you have gifts of healing and we can do miracles. And she's my friend. Like we're in school. Like, what? So in reality, they knew they couldn't do something like that.

And they were just trying to tell you, oh, it's her fault. Yeah, and we would hide our own sickness, too. What do you mean? There's been heart conditions in the family. There's been cancer in the family. There's been divorces in the family. We used to say, like, divorce. None of that will touch our home.

There's been multiple divorces in that side of the family, including my uncle, my aunt, got divorced and they got back together because that's bad for donor dollars. I mean, there was, there's been brain tumult. in my family. There's been early, what we would define as early deaths, even though the Bible teaches that God has numbered our days. There's nothing early or accidental about it. Like, he's not like, oops. Oh, I missed that one. I couldn't control it. But in our estimation, early, well, why are people dying early, getting divorced, having cancer, having heart conditions, if we're faith healers? Yeah, how would you explain that to people? You would hide it all.

How? If somebody's dead and just doesn't show up, I mean... I'm sorry. You would hide it all or abused them or spiritually abused people and manipulate. So one of the things I had a family member who got arthritis and was not doing well with sickness. And we're about to get super personal here in another second as well. I'll share a story from my own family, like meaning my own kid. And the reason this woman got arthritis is because they said she criticized my uncle. Now here's a fun one. So yesterday, as of this recording, I went to the hospital, the oncologist, for, or what I'm told is the last time with my five-year-old boy who had cancer. They declared him cancer-free yesterday.

Wow. He was diagnosed at three months old with a rare form of cancer. And my family at the time said, that's what you get because you touch the Lord's anointed. You spoke against the family. This is what we told you would happen. When you call this out, when you do this, the Lord will judge you because the Bible says touch not the Lord's anointed.

That's one of the big scare tactics. If you come against a man of God, the Lord's going to curse you. You're going to have cancer. You're going to die. So with me it was, it's even worse for you, Kosti. You're going to watch your son suffer. Did even a tiny little part of you, just the part that still is traumatized from everything you went through growing up, think could it be true?

No. By then, I had studied the Bible, been mentored, been through biblical counseling, gotten a good understanding of the sovereignty of God theologically based on what scripture says. And I remember, and instead of getting angry and reacting to, which would have been the first couple years of salvation, I was very feisty because I was like, you're wrong. You know, I call it cage stage,

because you should be caged for a little while lest you say something foolish or mean you regret or in a tone that you wouldn't want to say it in. I calmly and clearly, along with my wife, shared what we believed about the sovereignty of God. With those family members? with those family members. And then one of them asked me,

are you sure, like, I appreciate all that you said. It was very sweet. Like, they were actually kind. They said, but is there not one party? Just like one party you that would think, like this is because of that.

And I just said, boom, I started naming family members. And I said, was there cancer that? Was there divorce that? And they were like, okay. Oh, yeah,

agree. I mean, agree to disagree. But I get that. And it went, it was over. And I remember praying and asking the Lord, if you would be willing to heal my son, and if it would be your will,

I'll praise you. If you don't, I'll praise you anyway. We have a big sign in our house from the book of Daniel. And it says, and if not, he is still good. Because oftentimes, and this ties into the prosperity gospel, God's good because things are good. You buy your first house, God's so good, have a baby. God's so good. God's so good. And then you get the cancer diagnosis and you're like, where are you? Why don't you love me? What did I do wrong to deserve this? Shadrach, Meshach, and Abendigo, kind of a famous story, but maybe if someone's never heard it, they're going to go in the fiery furnace for not bowing down to the big statue of Nebuchadnezzar. And, you know, in paraphrase, they're like, aren't you worried about it, whatever?

And they're like, nope, our God will deliver us. But then they go, and if he does, even if he doesn't, we're still going to worship him. He's still good. The idea being, whether I have cancer or I just got a job promotion, whether I am struggling with infertility or God just gave me twins, whether I have had broken relationship after broken relationship or I just met the man or woman in my dreams and I just walked down the aisle, whether or not God is still good. And that's the twist of their theology. The prosperity gospel is it's all good because God's good when it's not something's wrong with your faith. You did something wrong. You did something this way. And I remember that journey just being like, Lord, if it be real, heal my son. And over time, you know, we are comfortable with whatever the outcome. And when he's declared cancer free yesterday, I don't call my family and gloat and be like, now what? You know, there were false prophecies. They prophesied against my wife when I married her because she wasn't into like their theology.

They were like, she's going to be barren. What? Oh, totally. They said she's going to ruin the anointing on your life. How do you still talk to them? I just, I'm stunned that you still even talk to them. Because of love. Oh, you are better than me.

But Jesus forgave me forgives you. If God can forgive, I can forgive. If God would love me, not because I'm so awesome. Like we sing a lot in these churches. I call it Air One Theology. I'm not insulting the radio station, but like, you're so awesome. And everyone's going, but like, here's what is happening in a lot of American churches today. You're so loved. Oh, he just loves you. He couldn't have heaven without you. He just needed to chase you down, Alex, because, oh, he just couldn't have it with it. He just loved. And look, some of that's true. God loves you. It's great. But we've made it so much about us and so much about God. He just loves us. He's chasing us down. But here's the truth.

he loved you when you were unlovable he forgave you when you were unforgivable you were a dead sinner a wretch lost in your sin and he looked at you and said mine if he could forgive the unforgivable love the unlovable and call you choose you and care for you not because you're awesome because you're actually lost in dead you're not awesome but he is then can i not as a a forgiven, grace-filled saint now, a saved person, which is what a saint is. It doesn't mean we're perfect. Were his children, then forgive others, yes. And I think that's the thing.

I never deserved to be saved. I never deserved to have my eyes open. I never did any... I'm not better than my uncle. I'm not better than anyone else. I never deserved this. God graciously opened my eyes to it. So while it's hard, or it was hard, harder back then to be patient and not get angry,

and not get fired up because they're like lying and scamming people. And you're just like, ah, my. Yeah, well, something must have happened where you were starting, you said, you know, the cracks were starting to happen in the dam, then the waterfall came. So what was the moment that you were like, this is not Christianity? We are scamming people and lying to them. I started reading the Bible. This is going to sound really simple, but it's true.

And that's the thing I love about God is he's simple. And he says in the Bible that the foolish things of this world will confound the wise. Paul the apostle says the cross is foolishness to the perishing, but to us it's the power of God. People are like, okay, so this message is, oh, come on, believe in Jesus Christ and be saved. Or just read the Bible, really? I go, yeah, I read the Bible. And I started looking at things. Now, here's why I brought my wife up.

Part of that was the trigger. My family, when I met my wife, she just is not like that from that world. She went to Azusa, put herself through school, was working at TGI Fridays, drove a Yaris. It was like super mellow. This is the sweetest girl. I met her at a Jason Aldeen concert because, you know, we love country music. That's cute.

Yeah. And so I'm right out of DB. I went to Dallas Baptist University, played baseball there. I meet her. And just randomly, find out that she was going to church and like starting to try to just learn about God. I was like, this girl's really sweet. I want to ask her on date.

So I did. And we start dating. And the first question, I keep her a secret from my family for a while. First question, like, here we go. They're like, yeah, we heard, you know, you're dating this gal, is she spirit-filled? Like, yeah, she's spirit-filled. She believes in Jesus.

And we all get the Holy Spirit when we get saved. And they're like, no, no, no, because I had gone to a Baptist school. So I knew a little more. They're like, does she speak in tongues? I was like, no. They're like, she's not saved. I'm like, you can't say it. You literally can't say that biblically.

So I, because of that, I'll spare all the details. But they're like, in my first book, God Greeding the Prosperity Gospel. I kind of put it all in there and wrote the whole story so people could know it and then talked about the theology. but she was weeping and, like, being spiritually abused, couldn't speak in tongues. So we're like, we should look at the Bible for some answers. Like, what a novel idea, right? So we go to 1st Corinthians 12.

We're looking at spiritual gifts. And Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1230, not all do they, not all speak in tongues, not all will have gifts of healing. Not all are going to have all these gifts. And I'm like, oh, my goodness. Oh, man. And I'm like, I think you're off the hook. She's like, what?

So we saw that, and then I thought, like, what else isn't right here? So over a course of years, I mean, it took a little bit of time, but I was reading the Bible, interacting with the Bible. And then the real, like, breaking moment, though, I brought up John 5 earlier. I was studying. I became a pastor in like this attractional kind of seeker, like megachurch, trying to be a megachurch church church plant. But total like megaturch theology, just like, whatever, as long as everyone feels good and comes, it's cool. I get to John 5. I'm preaching in the gospel of John. They assigned me this text.

And I get to that text. And I'm like, what in the world? And I see things I'd never saw before. Jesus heals one man out of a multitude. I was like, I thought he always heals everybody. It's always his will to heal everyone. Yeah. Like, what?

He heals the man immediately. Then here's the big one. This broke for me. The Pharisees come and ask the man, who told you you can pick up your palate and walk? It's the Sabbath. What are you doing? the man goes the man who healed me and then john the apostle john who writes the gospel john

says because the man didn't know who jesus was i'm like how did he get healed and have enough faith for his healing if he didn't even know who jesus was what is going so he healed him immediately so i'm i'm messed up by the text i'm like this doesn't look like what i know about healing this doesn't look like what we taught. I grab a commentary by this dude named John MacArthur, who's a little fiery against some of the charismatic chaos. And I'm reading in it, and he talks about the sovereignty of God, the love of God, Jesus' healing of this man, not because he was special, not because he had enough faith, not because he had any merits at all or did anything to impress him, but because he chose to. He loved him, and he initiated that healing. And then he says, and therein lies the cruelest abuse or

cruelest lie of faith healers today that the people they fail to heal are guilty of negative confession unbelief not having enough faith not giving a big enough offering and I'm like oh my goodness that was me so I literally started crying like I in that moment believe that I begin to understand the truth about God yeah he's in control and you repented I did repent of my sin I was like I want to be a true pastor I want to preach the true gospel I'm going to point out what's wrong try to help some people but I want to live based on the truth. And so that was the moment. Your uncle Benny Hin apologized for preaching the prosperity gospel.

Do you believe that he truly repented? No, he went right back to it. I mean, even just recently, he was doing it again. And part of the challenge within the family is the amount of information that's not appropriate to put in books and not appropriate to share publicly because it's the stuff of tabloid fare. People would say, like, why not just say it? I try to stick to theology and the clear abuses,

but there would be, if he were to truly repent, there would be like a whole lifestyle repentance. You know how like, it's not just, oh, I did some weird things and made some false promises. It's like, it's a total change. So you know how like if you were being attacked by lions and you threw some raw meat in the corner to get them off you, then you pieced out?

That's like my uncle with his repentance. And a lot of these guys, they throw a little meat to the crowd. You know, I really shouldn't be doing that. The Holy Spirit's really been convicting me here, you know, and you're like, oh, see, and you're going, there's just a, it's like an iceberg, you only see the tip. It's like, here it is. The mass is under there.

There are so many lifestyle choices, habitual things, and scams and things that he, that's between him and the Lord. But no, true repentance looks like Zacchaeus. Remember the crazy short guy in the Bible who gets up in the tree? and he's like, I repent. He was a scamming tax collector. He doesn't care about anything anyone says anymore. He's like, I'll pay people back.

I'll do this. Jesus, it's total transformation. I don't care what anyone thinks. I'll lose everything as long as I gain Christ. That's what true repentance looks like. My uncle and many others are, how much can I hold on to still, but kind of get better PR?

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Is it biblically possible that people today can still perform here? healings, speak in tongues, prophesy, or be an apostle. I don't believe that it is biblically possible for someone today to be an apostle, anything you just said. And here's where I want to make sure I'm clear. I believe that God heals. I just shared a story about how my son is cancer-free. I believe that God can perform miracles. I believe that God can move supernatural. We serve a supernatural God. So easy, like if someone's listening to this or you're about to comment like, oh, there you go, but God does nothing. Don't believe in the Holy Spirit. Calm down, people. I just wrote a book on the Holy Spirit. Even reform people are mad.

Some of the stuff I said, you know, it's a little too, you're getting a little Pentecostal there at Christ. He's like, relax. Let's relish in the spirits work. Amen. God gave the apostles and the prophets. Ephesians 2, verse 20, says, the apostles and the prophets were the foundation of the church. And Christ is the cornerstone. And we, as a whole, holy temple, because we are a holy people under God, we're filled with the Holy Spirit, are being built atop that. So it's not a like, oh, God does nothing theology. It's a, I have apostles. Their names are Paul, Peter, James, John. They're foundational. They were given revelation, literally from God. Why did the gift of tongues exist in the Bible? To spread the gospel as

assigned to unbelieving Jews as well. It was known languages. And when you look at the book of Acts, and I put, I love charts. I put charts in the book that I wrote on this and was wanting to reason with people biblically, even if they don't agree. When you look at the different moments that tongues explode, in almost every single one of them, the Jews are like, what? They got it too when the Gentiles got it? Or the Jews are going, what's going on? And it's for everyone. And languages are causing the gospel to go forth. They're interpretable. They're known. And now what's happening, God is pouring out his spirit. And it's clear the church isn't just going to be Jews. God's people aren't just Israel. It's going to be the Jews, the Gentiles. It's Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria,

and to the ends of the earth. So the languages caused the gospel to go forth. It wasn't like, you know, sheikababababah, whatever, tongues, and now I'm going to sit there. Yeah, but how do people even get that? Like, how do they even start saying that? Well, they would use different texts to get there. So some people say when Paul in 1st Corinthians 13 says, if I spoke with the tongues of angels, they're like, oh, see, tongues of angels. And I would go, well, okay, first he was being hyperbolic and metaphoric. He's He's like even if I spoke at the tongues of angels, even if I had all wisdom and knowledge, he doesn't.

So none of that's accurate. But I would also say, when angels spoke, did the shepherds understand when the angels get? Like all the Christmas stories? Yeah. So they weren't going, blah, blah, blah. And someone was like, shabra-bah. It was actual languages.

Another one is in Romans 8, verse 26. It talks about the Holy Spirit, interceding for us. Beautiful promise there that the Holy Spirit is praying for you. Really amazing. And with groanings too deep for words, they're like, these are just my groanings. I'm just, oh, they're just coming out of me. It's the Holy Spirit. Well, that's what I'm saying.

Like, people that do this, I feel like it's just coming out. They're not even controlling it. So how do you explain that? People that are doing it are controlling it many times over. I used to speak in tongues. I controlled it. I learned at the altar. What about the people that are, when they're fainting and convulsing and speaking in tongues

and all that, like what was happening with Benny? Yeah, so some of that is emotionalism. they're just getting caught up in the moment. Some of it is they are doing that or they think they have to. And then when people are doing it and they can't control it, here's where, and I'm not saying all of it's demonic. But I am going to say this. I think a lot of it is false spirits.

That is biblical to say. That is right to say, I'm not attributing all the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil and to the demonic, saying anything now you experience. Oh, watch out. It's the devil unless it's reformed and like no emotion. Someone's crying in like church and you're like, oh, is that a demon? like any form of expression. Why would a demon care? Why would a demon care like I want somebody to faint here or speak in tongues or whatever? To be deceived. 100%. That's the goal. If they can deceive you into thinking that experience and emotionalism and that guy that's preaching a false gospel is doing the work of the Lord, you follow him. Well, now you're on the wide path following someone straight towards hell and you are not on the narrow path following Christ. You're not in the way of truth. You're on the way of error. And that's the goal. Isn't that what the Bible describes the devil as the father of lies?

He wants to deceive. Paul also says that he blinds the minds of unbelievers. His whole goal. Like, this stuff isn't fair. The devil is not coming to the bed, the foot of your bed, Alex Clark, with a pitchfork and a red tail and horns like, here I am to deceive you. No, he's subtle. He's crafty.

He's a cheap shot artist. It's guerrilla warfare. He's using insiders. He does that. He gets, he's a Trojan horse. He's trying to deceive from within. Last thing I'll say, and then I know you got some more for me. Paul the apostle, when he's warning the apostles in the other elders in Acts chapter 20, he's saying goodbye, they're hugging him, they're kissing his neck, they're like, man, we're going to miss you.

He gives him a warning. He says, after my departure, savage wolves will come from among you. The greatest threat to the church is not from the outside. Gavin Newsome? Eh, small time. compared to the devil and darkness. I'm not worried about Katie Hobbs. A little bit as far as being an Arizona pastor. But compared to darkness? No, politicians that are working hard for their agenda, which is anti-God, are really just low-level pawns on Satan's chessboard.

The main effect he wants to have is in the church through leaders. So you think about stuff like the Hillsong situation, What's his goal? Get a Carl Linz at the top of the pyramid with his Justin Bieber flair and his chest all everywhere and showing his body off, doing his thing with his green room. And you think, oh, that's God. I got to be a part of this church. You're another deceived 24 to 34 year old who thinks that's the jam. And then when it all implodes, what do you do? You deconstruct. And you walk away from the faith and you think, oh, that's how they all are. And Satan's going, yeah, we did it again. Great job, guys. Okay. Next, it's all. through lies and deception. You wrote a book called Knowing the Spirit. How do we know if our worship is spirit-filled? It matches Scripture.

You look at the Bible, and that's where we all come to a big decision. Is the Word of God going to be my authority, or is my influencer? Even me. Test everything I say against Scripture. It's not influence, followers, personality, charisma, whatever. I'm not sold on any of that. It's not even the feeling. Feelings can deceive me.

I get all the feels watching a game. I get all the feels, you know, listening to certain music. You got nostalgia. You look at certain memories. I mean, feelings can deceive us. Now, I wouldn't say they're right or wrong. Feelings aren't right or wrong. They just are.

What do you say to somebody who's struggling with? Well, I really like Bethlehler Hillsong music. Is it okay to listen to that if I don't listen to their sermons or go to their church? That's better than listening to their sermons for sure. If someone's like, I just like the music and I only listen to the stuff that is really, really accurate, like some of their songs are theological, like, okay, fine. Like, if that's your, what would you call it, the lowest bar of entry, or that's like the only thing you're doing, I'm like, all right, that's not going to lead you into heresy. But every time you buy one of their songs, like, you know, good job

paying them for their heresy. From that, though, you get a lot of other concerns. Typically, someone's not saying that. Now, that's a minority. The majority of people are like, what's the bait deal? They seem to love Jesus. Like, this. stuff is you're just blowing this up. That's what you said about Hill Song 10 years ago. That's what you said about Hill Song five years ago. So here's the principle I operate by. This applies to me too and you, all of us. Truth and time go hand in hand. Truth and time go hand in it. Time is going to tell. If I'm a phony, it will be exposed. Yeah. If something's not real, the Lord will bring it out. If I'm a true believer,

he's going to bear fruit in me. And the biggest point of writing the book, knowing the spirit, was to bring charismatic and reform people to the table to go, hey, here's what the Bible says. We should have way more agreement, first of all. All the weird stuff and all the hyper, like, stoicism can be out. And then we should have family debates or family discussions at the table where we've got a central truth dialed. But could we dump all this other weird stuff that's just emotionalism?

One of the first people that comes to mind for me when I think of, like, a celebrity pastor or somebody big on social media, is Stephen Ferdick with Elevation Church and Elevation. worship. What concerns do you have with that church? Where do I begin? So Ferdick, let's start kind of outer layers. Ferdick doesn't preach a lot of biblical sermons, but he's seminary trained. There'd be a concern. There's a lot of hype, still though in the outer circle here.

there's a lot of hootin and hollering, a lot of noise, and not a lot of substance. Now want to move closer. T.D. Jakes is his mentor. Who trains you is who you will become. Jesus said the pupil, when he's trained, will be fully like his teacher. T.D. Jakes is a modalist, which is a heresy regarding the Trinity, the Holy Spirit. T.D. Jakes is a prosperity, gospel preacher. T.D. Jakes has been playing this game so long. I mean, the guy is loaded. Going closer, though,

prosperity gospel, okay. And then other elements of the Word of Faith movement, which is basically the idea that you and I are little gods. What is the difference between prosperity gospel and word of faith? So Word of Faith is a lot more name it, claim it, metaphysical. It gets really weird, where I am a little God and I can move things by force. What do you mean? I'm a little God. say something that we would hear somebody like Stephen Ferdick say. I am God Almighty. I have Jehovah. I am a little Jehovah. Stephen Ferdick says that about himself. Yeah. So he was doing this sermon. And I don't know if you guys have the clip or can run this.

But Ferdick was going across the state. It gets hype. Like he's going off. And he's like, I'm in covenant with God. And then he's just, I'm like, oh, okay, true, true statement. Like he's going. And then he goes, I'm in covenant with God Almighty. And then he goes, I, I am God Almighty. Like literally says that. They're playing the organ. He's in like a T-shirt. I don't know if he has his,

took his jacket off or something crazy is going on. He's sweating. We'll play it here. People will do a lot of things with that. Oh, you're taking it out of the context. Oh, he's just fired up. Look, you can't say ever. I am God Almighty.

You can say that the Holy Spirit has taken residence in me. You can say I'm a child of God. Is that something you think that you can apologize for and still remain a pastor, or you got to, like, pack it up and be done after saying something like that. What I want Ferdick to do is to cut it out. I want him to be who he was trained to be. He went to a seminary, a good seminary. When he went at that time, the man knows how to preach the word. I'm not saying he can't walk around on the stage. I don't. Go for it. There's nothing like, there's no rule book. I'm not saying he can't be fired up.

I'm not saying people can't stand and clap and shout amen. People at my church do. I'm not saying that you can't be vibrant with your music. I'm not saying you can't have lights or whatever. There's so many things. I'm just saying for a verdict, I want him to preach the word. Does it concern you that they left the SBC? No, everybody is.

The SBC is getting weird. Does it concern you that his wife is a senior pastor at their church? There have been infographics that the church created that said things like, we serve a lead pastor who seeks and hears from God. We serve a lead pastor we can trust. We serve a lead pastor who goes first. He's the apostolic middleman. So there's this hierarchy in those systems.

Like T.D. Jakes' wife is called the First Lady. My uncle's wife, first lady. We had like codes. It's like the royal family. We thought we were like it. It concerns me because we're creating man-made systems. All this stuff is the same. Hill Song is just the one that imploded in front of all of our eyes.

There's more coming. Truth in time go hand in hand. So yes, it does, because now we're about the glory of man and not the glory of God. They also produced a children's book, a children's coloring book at Elevation Church that said, Elevation Church is built on the vision. God gave Pastor Stephen. We will protect our unity in supporting his vision. Does God give visions to people?

No, and I pastor a church. It's not my vision. It's the Bible's vision. What's my job? My job is to unpack what the Bible says a church should be and what we're going to do and then champion that. Am I an example? Yes. Do I need to get out front of our people and say, all right, here's where God has called us because the Bible says this. Let's go and run hard as an example of living what I believe and living what I preach. 100%. Is leadership important in the church? Yes. Should people respect in the state? their leaders. Yeah, Paul says we should highly esteem those who labor among us in the Lord.

100% we should honor our leaders in as much as they are preaching the Word and leading like Christ and modeling this for us. Absolutely. But my authority in my church isn't God gave me a vision. My authority is only because of the scripture. I can't tell people where to live, what color to paint their house, can't tell them what they can drive. It's not my vision or I built this church. This is my church. There's a lot of pastors across America who, who think that they're an apostle. Is that possible? No. The apostles did signs and wonders that were impossible to do. The apostles were eyewitnesses of Christ. Paul says the signs of an apostle were done among you. So if you say you're an apostle, you're going to get direct revelation

from God. Not, I feel like God told me. I feel like the Lord's telling me this morning. You're not going to feel anything. You're going to know it. Second, you're going to raise the dead, grow limbs. You're going to teleport, by the way, like Philip, go read Acts 8. The man was hanging with the eunuch, let him to Christ, baptize him. So you're saying it's more possible for Bugs Bunny to be an apostle than a lot of these American pastors today. If that's how you want to describe it? Absolutely. It's more possible for, you know, I mean, Taylor Swift's got as good a shot as these guys. One thing that really concerned me was, so Stephen Ferdick has a teenage son. A year ago, he released a rap album. I don't know if you saw this. He was glorifying oral sex, money, drugs,

and Stephen made a post on his Instagram praising the album, telling his son, I'm so proud of you, promoting the album. Should you judge a pastor based on how his children act while under their roof? Yes. First Timothy three says that my qualifications are actually attached to the way I manage my household and the way my children come under my authority. It doesn't mean they have to be saved. There's some people that say, like, having children who believe, the word believe there in the text, actually can be translated faithful. And all that means is that while they're under my roof, they're not acting a fool. What if a pastor has grown adult children that are, you know, drug addicted or whatever,

is that a cause for concern or no? Well, I think you would ask big questions. Like, what happened? When did it happen? How has their parents or their father in particular played a role in their life in the midst of that struggle? Can pastors kids go wayward and prodigal? anyone else's, of course. Is it like a domineering?

You know, I tell my kids, like, you better obey me or else. I'm going to lose. Daddy's going to lose his job. No. It's a man who's leading in the church in a way that is clear and biblical and faithful will naturally have a home that follows under that. I have a friend. This is a powerful story.

I have a dear friend whose daughter came to him around 16 years old and said, Daddy, I understand you're a very moral man. You're godly. I see that. I just don't believe like you. I'm having trouble believing, like having the faith you do and following. Now, I will obey you. I trust you. I love you and mom. You live what you say you believe. I don't think you're a hypocrite. It's just not clicking for me. Everything that you've said, like a believer would know and live like. So I will follow you. I know I live under your roof.

I even know because you've taught us as kids and I've heard you preach the Bible that like you, how you manage your household, all that. I don't plan to rebel. I'm not going to lose my mind. I'm not it's not clicking for me. And he said, sweetheart, I totally understand. I want to walk with you and that. And I love you. I'm your father. God is the one who awakens the heart. He's the power in salvation. And so, and that girl went through a process and her daddy walked with her and she was faithful. And that man's not disqualified. His daughter is under control and loves her dad and honors them. I mean, there's unbelievers that are more moral than many Christians. Later on, she ended up professing Christ and she's a Christian and she just went through this season. So can there is the room for

struggle? Yes. Is there room for questions? Of course. You're walking with these children who only the Lord really can turn the lights on for. But everyone knows that what you see is what you get. If there's hypocrisy or fakeness behind the scenes. So yeah. But if a pastor's home is just rampant with that, I'd be like, what are you like, what are you doing? All right. So I have just been seeing this all over my timeline. I wanted to ask you about it. There's a pastor name, Dale Partridge, he's talking a lot about how women need to start wearing head coverings again in the church. What are your thoughts on that? Head coverings have for a long time been an issue of conviction and conscience, meaning if you feel as though you have a conscience issue, your conscience

is sensitive to that, then do it. Even in the text, Paul makes it clear, in my interpretive view, that a woman's hair now, the femininity of her hair is her covering. In contrast to the women in those days the prostitutes in Corinth who are shaving their head as a sign that they're throwing off all male authority and headship. And so there's something happening there contextually that's important to know. But sure, if somebody wants to wear a head covering, great. If someone doesn't, don't. But what Dale has been doing, and I think this is appealing, you know, pendulum swing. We go from like old school to new school. This generation, Gen Z in particular, are going to the extremes. There's like, I'm going to cut off all my anatomy and I can be with.

whatever gender I want. And then there's this high swing over to like morality and tradition and some order because the last generation was like, hey, whatever. It seems a little bit like legalism is trendy. It is. And that's what I'm saying. The pendulum has swung over. And I go way back with Dale and I know him and I think my wife went to high school with him and his brother. We go all California transplants in some regards. There's a pattern. He's a trendy guy. He's up on every trend. He was when he was in the business world, too. And I think this is another trend. I also know him and have interacted with him personally. And I think that he has swung to certain extremes. I remember when the house church thing started, when he was starting to do house churches.

And he called me up and was like, man, we got house churches. Like the institutional church is just blah. And I'm like, it's another phase. He's like, this whole thing's going down. COVID. We're all going to be like the church is going to be no more. So I'm trying to get out front of that and do house churches because we're going to be ready and I think I'm going to lead the next wave and I'm just like here's another fad like you know it's Y2K you know we better get ready. Were you even born? How old are you? Yeah, I was born for Y2K.

You were seven, six years old, you know? I was in high school. It was like Y2K and then the clock switched and nothing happened. It's like the end of the world. I think somebody was prophesying the end of the world this week or last week. Dale, you know, Dale's on the upper trend of everything. And so it's like, oh, now, now it's this. And it's going to fade and you know what will last?

Truth in time. What is so confusing to me is that everybody calls everybody a false teacher. Like, you know, we call, we say Joel Osteen's a false teacher, and then people that like him will say, no, Kostehan is a false teacher. How would we know if a pastor is truly interpreting the word correctly? Because they could be reading scripture, but it's like, well, how do we know who's got the interpretation right? Yeah. If you malign the gospel, you jack up the gospel, you mess with the gospel, the good news. That is.

Christ died to save sinners. You are saved by grace through faith alone in Christ alone. You profess with your mouth, you believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is Lord. That is the gospel, the good news that you were a sinner and God's wrath was pointed towards you. Hell was where you were heading. And now because of Christ and faith in Him, you are saved. If you add to that or you take away, you're a false teacher. Joel Osteen preaches the prosperity gospel.

That's why I call him a false teacher. I'm not mad that some guys got Yeezys on. Well, they say he says Bible verses all the time. James says even the demons believe. I mean, read the book of James, and he's like, even the demons believe and they shudder. And what's he talking about? He's talking about faith and works. He's like, you say you have faith, but your life doesn't show it.

Even the demons believe. Is it important to share the bad news? when it comes to the gospel as well as the good news? Absolutely. And then do you think that Joel Osteen does that? No, he doesn't share the bad news. So that's why it's only good news if you actually know that there's a reason, which is why I mentioned wrath.

I mean, I started talking about negative things and I'm going, but God, because of Christ. And so if you don't preach the bad news or even that, let me say this in biblical terms. If you don't preach the issue of sin, the problem of man, that heart, this heart, that is darkened and wicked. And Jeremiah 179 says that the heart is so deceitful. I don't preach the state of mankind in his and her heart. And the solution is Christ. I've not done the job.

So you are a false, meaning wrong, in error, teacher. But it's not because the yeasies and the nice house and all that stuff. So when people say I'm a false teacher, which usually they're just angry about something, name why. Tell me where I've said, you must do these works to be saved or to earn God's favor. Tell me where I've said, if you believe in Jesus, the American dream, tell me where I've added to the gospel or taken away from it. All right, I'm a false teacher. Fine. And where people say, well, judge not, you shouldn't judge. Let me just interact with that because it'll probably end up in your comments too. When Jesus is saying judge not in Matthew 7, verses 1 and 2, everyone should go read it. if you use that in the comments, make sure you've read the context as well.

Don't just take it out of context. Judge not lest you be judged. For the same measure you judge, it'll be judged you. Perfect. Great. I accept that. If you and I preach something false, let the judgment come. Why?

We're guilty of the very thing we've judged. If I preach the prosperity gospel, let judgment flow like a river. Why? I deserve it. I'm a hypocrite. He's saying to the Pharisees, judge not lest you be judged. The same measure in which you judge, it will be judged.

you, meaning you better get it right. So how do we judge? Rightly, Paul the apostle says. I take the Bible and put it next to Osteen, and I take the gospel, the good news, the bad news, sin and man, all of it, and I put it next to Ferdic. I take Christology, the doctrine of Christ, and I put it next to Bethel. What specifically does Bethel teach that you believe isn't biblical? First, it's always God's will to heal, and if you don't get healed, the problems with you, not God. That's spiritual abuse. but then heretical, like blasphemy, for the longest time. And Bill Johnson's starting to talk out of the side of his mouth on this one. So you can do with that, what you will.

He says, Jesus did his miracles. This was in his book when heaven invades Earth. And then they took it out. They, like, changed it, but didn't tell anyone. His book, When Heaven Invades Earth on page 29, when Jesus did his miracles, he did them as a man in right relationship to God. And then there was an ellipsis, and it says, not as God. and then on page 79 of that version, the original version,

he says that Jesus laid aside his divinity, that he stopped being God. And you're like, okay, that's super problematic. Like, that's unbiblical. You can't say that. That's heretical. Old church councils had settled that years ago. Then you're like, why is he saying this?

Maybe he means well. And he says, if he did his miracles as God, they would be unattainable for us. But since he did them as a man, it's our model to follow. And I'm like, oh, perfect. How convenient. Jesus did all that as just a man. I can, Alex can. So what should we do, Bill? And he says, pay tuition, come to Bethel's Supernatural School of Ministry, and we're going to teach you how to be

apostles, prophets, and healers and miracle workers, and we're going to turn the world upside down and take it by storm. And Reading's going to change. Well, how long have they been doing this? And how many states have they overturned? Have they even made it out of Reading? In fact, in Reading, they're called Hogwarts. Like the Harry Potter School for Witches. or whatever. They haven't, they didn't take over anything. I mean, well, they do. They say, well, we have, you know, gold dust and gloried clouds. And basically, they talk about the appearance of these special clouds or smoke and their services. That's all a supernatural sign of God's presence. Yeah, I think some of that's just glitter in the, in the, in the air ducts and

like smoke from fog machines. And then two, I'm being cheeky there. Let me get more biblical if the glory of God shows up, no one takes out a cell phone. In the Bible, when the glory of God showed up, everyone on their face and not slain in the spirit, bowing before the glory of God. Why? It is Yahweh. It's God. He's that, that you feel, that you see, that presence, that weight, that tangible glory, that is God. And you would bow And there is no one going, yeah, with their cell phone doing it for YouTube. And everyone's like, let's move to Bethel. Well, I think I've heard, like, Bethel apologists say things like, well, we've apologized for that.

Or that was a misunderstanding. How many things you got to apologize for? Apologize for that. Apologize for gold dust in the air ducts. Apologize for it. So here's the thing. I'm not being graceless. There's grace for all.

Grace for the humble. Well, they're going to say that you're a non-charismatic cessationist if you have a problem with them. I love Pentecostals. I have Pentecostal friends. I'm not. nice to Pentecostals. It's the extreme, you know, they're, they're terrorizing all of them. Even Pentecosters are like, those guys are extra weird. So how many things you have to apologize for? How many times do I have to apologize in my ministry in all of us? I think it's important.

How many times does Alex have to get on her show and go, hey, guys, I just want to follow up last episode. I'm really sorry. I shouldn't have said this, this, this, this, this. And eventually, your bosses are like, maybe you shouldn't be on right now because you're a little crazy. and you keep saying foolish things, you're bad for business. In the ministry, we go, hey, could you go to church? Does Jesus love you? Could he save you? Of course.

Is His grace for you when you're humble? Yeah, but maybe you shouldn't be the guy with the mic. So let's take individual pastors out of the equation. How do you know what denomination is sound? Ones that follow scripture as closely as possible. I think Baptist, I think reform churches. I think even I have Pentecostal friends that pastor churches that we differ on tongues. we differ on the normative pattern of gifts of healing and gifts of miracles today, the normative pattern.

Meaning they're like, I think this stuff should be pretty regular. And I'm like, yeah, I don't think that every church, like a fantasy football team is going to get a wide receiver and going to get a quarterback. Like you get a healer, you get a miracle worker, you get a tongue talker. But they think they say, well, why do you say that God is not powerful enough that he could heal today if he wants to or do miracles? I would say that's a completely false stuff. statement, I say God does heal. He is powerful enough to do that. He's just been clear in the word that when he gives these gifts, they operate normative at will. And so they would be healing people in hospitals. They would be going, hey, your friend who's got cancer, take me to her home right now.

I want to pray for her. And then they'll deliver the gospel and she'll go, wow, this is, that's how it worth. The early church was being established, and so these gifts were rampant and regular. I'm only lobbying for a clear understanding of what scripture described them out. So if someone says, I'm a prophet, you've got to be 100% accurate then. You can't do it Chris Vallaton did. He prophesied Trump for the second term and all that stuff. And then they all said, well, it got stolen and well, this. So without even going into debates over the election and any level of fraud or any level of accusation about anything, a prophet would have actually foretold all of that, too, and told us to be ready. It's going to be this, it's going to be that, it's going to be stolen,

it's going to be like, you would be, you would nail it all. I mean, you'd be able to prophesy 9-11. You'd be able to prophesy any level of conspiracy or anything. You would be, you would tell people, there was no example in the entire Bible of false prophets going like, oh, sorry, so here's that, and you're still a prophet. Not biblical. at all. Would you say that Catholicism is a sound denomination? No. Why? Because they teach that you have to add works and mix works in to be saved and to remain saved. They have a co-redemptrix in Mary. You cannot have any but one mediator. It is Christ. That's our mediator. Yeah, but they say, we don't pray to Mary. We don't worship Mary. Well, then they need to check the Catholic Catechism.

The Roman Catholic Catechism is loaded with all of that. We did a series that for the gospel lovingly with a former Catholic, whose uncle is like a famous priest as well, really interesting. And he did a bunch of videos dealing with all of that, really lovingly, really kindly, but very bluntly. And the challenge with Catholicism is it's traditional for people. People say, like, I'm a Catholic. You're like, no, you're a cultural Catholic. Yeah, but Catholicism is the largest denomination in the world. There's 1.2 billion members. Do you think 1.2 billion people are going to hell? I think if someone is a professing Catholic that believes in what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, then they are on the pathway to hell because it's a false gospel mixed with works,

and it cannot earn your salvation. You must believe, by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone to be saved. That is the pathway to heaven. So I actually evangelize Catholics. I love them, and I want to see them saved. And I want to see them saved. to see them come out. That's what they say about you and I, though. I know. And I have some people I interact with that say, praying for your salvation, every time I said, hey, praying for you to see the truth and be free from the bondage of work. How do you know who is right? Well, you got to just trust the Holy Spirit to work in their heart. And I believe I'm right. Isn't that the whole element of conviction as you're going, I believe this? And here's what I would say. I got more respect for someone

that goes, I've studied it. Kosti, I'm praying for you to come to the true church, like a Roman Catholic, and I go, I'm praying for you. I always told that. I respect that. And here's what I respect that more then. You guys are so mean. Like, quit picking on Bethel, or I felt, I just feel like I think I feel, never mind what you think and feel. Never mind what I think and feel. Let's go to the text. And if we do, more often than not, you know what we'll also have a more tender tone because we actually know what we believe. And our dialogue then becomes more meaningful. And we're honestly thinking like, this person's such a liar or creating so many false dichotomies or just so run by her feelings. Instead, you're going,

wow, they really believe that. Then I need to reason with their intellect and I need to also pray for their mind and their heart to change. It changes conversation. But the feelings-based stuff, like when people get in the comments and they're just going, y'all are so mean or what about you hate, and you presume motives, like, oh, Alex just wants this or Kosti's just that. Like, you've left the reservation of logical conversation. What is lurking on your toilet paper? Oh, not much, just dioxins, fallates, synthetic fragrances, chlorine, carcinogens, BPAs for maldehyde, petroleum byproducts, and more. These are chemicals linked to endocrine disruption, birth defects, lower sperm, immune system problems, reduce fertility

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since they absorb all the carbon in the air and release precious oxygen we need every second of the day. We think, well, it's just my toilet paper. No big deal. I'll switch other things. But we make that same excuse. It's just this. No big deal. Well, it's just this. No big deal. With thousands of items every single day. These all add up, wreaking havoc on you and your family's health. Try bumroll today. Check out join bumroll.com and use coupon code Alex to get $3 off your first shipment. Go to join bumroll.com and use code Alex for $3 off your first shipment. And if you forget, find all the info in the show notes. Is one of the best ways to tell a false teacher from a real one to ask them how they feel about God's sovereignty? That could be helpful. Yeah.

What is the biggest threat to the American church right now? False teachers from the inside. What does the modern church need to be focusing on? Anchoring all of their beliefs and experiences in scripture above personal feelings and pragmatism. If it works, we do it. If it appeals to the culture, yeah. Look how many people came to church. I don't care because Paul said preach the word in season and out of season,

which means sometimes it's going to be popular, so they're coming. And sometimes it's not. Yeah, should the purpose of a church be to reach unbelievers? Secondarily, the church is for believers. I'm preaching this Sunday, a sermon title of the purpose of the church. Our church is grown and we've got all these people coming and it's great. I just want to remind them, this is a family gathering, expecting guests. So I'm not going to design church services, music, my sermons, all of it to make unbelievers want to hang.

We're not the church for the unchurched. not going like, oh, how can I get like the unbeliever to like it? We should throw a parade. We should throw a party. We should do cert de salee or whatever. Like, no, it's a family gathering. I'm preaching to the church, the believer, the called out one, the saved one, the one who loves God. And then an unbeliever, we should invite them. So secondarily, totally want to invite my friends. And when they come in, here's what they should say, surely God is in this place. Wow. And they'll want it. Or they'll say, I can't believe he said repent and believe. I can't believe he said, stop living your way, live God's way. How dare he stand there and tell me what to do that I have to

believe in God? I believe in God. Who's he the judge? One or the other, though. They're not going to say like, this is so cool. It feels so I just love coming. I love the coffee. I love the people. I love to hang. Those are some byproducts. I hope people are nice and they love it and they enjoy fellowship. But church is for the believer and the Lord brings the unbeliever into our midst. We also may go to others and share the truth. But I tell our church, you are the evangelism team. I tell our church, hold on out, invite your friends. I'll always preach the gospel and preach the truth. We're going to be super loving, but never forget, the service isn't going to change. I'm not going to dumb it down, and I'm not going to pull punches so that they like us more. I got to say the truth. And obviously,

you just did with the Catholicism thing. So we're all going to get in trouble. Is that a red flag to feel good every time you leave church? Ooh, that depends. If it's all about me and I feel good, and I feel good and more affirmed in my way of life, that's not good. But if you are one of those people that likes to go to the gym and you leave and you're like, oh, I'm so sore, it feels so good. That's a good thing. Here's how we should describe church. The truth pierced our heart.

And here's my job. I am either going to, in any given sermon, if I do my job, I'm going to comfort the afflicted. I am. The word of God is a healing bomb, soothing to the soul. So those people, they're going to feel pretty good leaving. I also, not just to comfort the afflicted, but I want to afflict the comfortable. I want people leaving going, I needed that. Or maybe a husband and wife driving away, you're driving away with your friends, and you're just like, like, what you're thinking about over there? You're like, I know already. There's things I need to change. I just, oh, Oh, that, like, hurts.

It feels like a chisel. Like, God is just chiseling away. One or the other. I'm going to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. You want to leave feeling like you had a little bit of a spiritual workout. We'd fire a trainer that didn't make us sore. We'd fire a coach that didn't go, hey, Alex, you're a little slow. Let's work on the speed.

Why don't we fire pastors that just go, oh, you're so good, good little Christian. You're awesome. Go out there and be awesome. Maybe I'm not awesome. Maybe I need the truth. you should maybe give it to me. Can someone be saved within a false system? Yes, because they belong to God, but they won't stay there.

So they'll get saved, and then they'll begin to see with new eyes and a new heart and go, eh, something's not right. I'm out. How would you recommend that somebody find a biblically sound church? Start with the preaching. Does that man preach the Bible, and does he walk through the text? And you finish going, I know the Bible more because of what he's been preaching to me. not open a Bible, read a verse.

And many people like, see, my guy preaches the Bible. Like, no, he went and walked around the stage and told you three stories and you bounced after the TED Talk. Not that. Did he preach the word and walk and keep pointing me back to scripture? That'd be one. Number two, did I leave not merely saying, oh, what a great preacher, but I said, what a great savior, was Christ exalted in our midst?

Did I think about Jesus? Am I convicted that things need to change in my life? And then character, how is his character? is he known as a spiritual abuser? Is he kind of an autocratic ruler? There's a lot of men that think the church is like their business. They're like their own kingdom or empire. And so you want to be careful with some of that. A lot of guys today, culturally speaking, have picked up on abortion, vote conservative. Yeah. So, and then family values, uh, anti-public school. Like I can name things that are really appealing right now. And they're preaching that stuff because it's pragmatism.

They're drawing a crowd based on that. And when the culture shifts again, they're going to shift. I mean, it's just constantly whatever's popular. So look for a church that whether it's popular or not, preach the word. What words of encouragement can you give my audience primarily young, conservative women who are confused on what is sound versus false teaching? Barry your, you said a lot of women. Barry your beautiful face in the Bible. just keep your nose there and your prayer life talk to the Lord ask him for help ask the Holy Spirit to lead you

and guide you into the truth and get yourself in a biblical church that's not necessarily based on your human preferences like how it feels or how it looks or if it's cool he's saying this to me by the way because before we started recording i told him this is my thing and you had really good advice for me about prioritizing things. Reorder the priorities, especially for young women, and maybe they don't all have a father figure in their life, or they need a good church. Just reorder the priorities.

It's okay to be at a church that feels cool and feels good. It's okay to have friends. It's okay to be enjoying the cultural environment. They're like, oh, I feel like people are like me. That's fine. Those are not bad things, but the priorities are all spiritual, the preaching of God's word, the focus on truth, the consistency of sound doctrine,

the character of leaders, the call for obedience and to submit to Christ. I mean, these are things that are the best thing for your soul and my soul. So I want to start there. And then, like if you picture a meal, the entree, I want to make sure that the core of what I'm eating is going to fuel me. And if there's some dessert, it's kind of sweet. If there's something good to drink with the meal and you put a little lime in your,

I like Pellegrino or like sparkling wine, put a little lime in it, it gives it a little flavor. if you have an appetizer, that's great. All these things, if your server is happy and fun, great. But what I want is the chef preparing what I need for spiritual fuel. Just think of that for your pastor. Reorder the priorities. Tell me about the new children's book you wrote with your wife. One came out already.

It's called In Jesus Name I Pray. It's about a squirrel who his buddy comes and says, he's like laying in leaves doing nothing. And our squirrel, TJ, the protagonist, is, rushing around getting ready for winter. He's like, winter's coming, winter's coming. He's got to get all the nuts he can to get ready for winter. Well, his buddy Joe, J-O, stands for Joel Osteen.

Just kidding. His buddy Joe is sitting in a pile of leaves taking a nap. And he's like, aren't you worried? Paraphrase, aren't you worried? Like, you're not going to have enough food for winter? He's like, don't worry. I got something this year that's good. And all of it's told in more eloquent ways.

But basically, Joe's got a secret phrase. And if you use the secret phrase, you pray and ask God, he'll give you whatever you want. And you can just hang out, be lazy, do your thing. And the phrase is in Jesus' name, I pray. So you just add in Jesus' name on the end of prayers. So it's kind of like a fun... It's a fun take-down of the prosperity gospel.

Yes. And so T.J. learns this lesson. He prays the prayer, goes home. He's like waiting for all the things he asked. He's like, I want all the nuts in the forest. I want a bigger tree house. I want more toys. And nothing happens.

Obviously, he has a little crisis of the will. But it's very much like ages four to eight crisis. So don't worry. Your kids won't be traumatized. And he learns a lesson about what it means to pray in Jesus' name. And I think it's a lesson. We've had a lot of reviews and people write in and say, hey, this was really good for my kids, but I hate to say it, but I'm thankful.

I started to tear up and it taught me something about God. Wow. That as a mom, I was like, oh, I believe that. So thank you. And what's the book called? In Jesus' name, I pray, T.J. the squirrel learns the true heart of prayer. And then we have another one coming out in February called the King who found his self-control. and it's a fruit of the spirit story about learning to have self-control.

Where can people find you on social media? And then also, if they want to visit your church, if they're in town or they're local. Yeah, so I pastor Shepherds' house Bible Church in Chandler. And so you can go online shepherds A-Z, Arizona.org. And then I'm on social media. I think Kosti W. Hinn is my handle. I'm on Instagram and Facebook mostly. I got off Twitter because it's a dumpster fire. It's just too crazy. And then we have a media ministry. I have a podcast every Monday. video podcasting. It's called for the gospel because that's what we're about. And I just wrote a book called Knowing the Spirit about the Holy Spirit's work. Hopefully that's an encouragement to folks. And yeah, you find me online. Thank you so much, Kosti, for doing the spillover. Thanks for having me

on Alex. What do you think about Kosti's views on the American Church, charismatic Christianity, the different denominations and miracles in healing? Join the Kut Servative's Facebook group for in-depth discussion or the comments under the video. version of the podcast on the real Alex Clark YouTube. Please leave a five-star review for the podcast if you enjoy the conversations we're creating here, even if you disagree, we're still talking. If you

liked this episode, though, you actually liked it, then you will like season four. I did an episode with Samuel Say about the end times. Every week on this podcast, by the way, is a different interview with a unique guest or expert. Now, it could be pop culture, it could be true crime,

health and wellness, or like this week, Theology. The spillover is back next Thursday at 9 p.m. Pacific, midnight Eastern, wherever you prefer to listen to podcast and available to watch if you like watching video podcasts on the real Alex Clark YouTube channel. I'm Alex Clark and this is the spillover. Love you, mean it. Bye. Is it biblical? Sorry. I'm so sorry. It's okay. This is that's literally. Do you need to answer it? Uh, it's two seconds. Hello? Hey, Pastor John. How are you? Is there, could I call you back? Thank you so much. And my wife will probably rebuke me privately later for even saying to you that I'll have to call you back

but I'm in a meeting I got to finish talk to you shortly okay bye that was MacArthur so I needed to oh my wife you told John McCarthy you'll call him back yeah I'm with Alex Clark