Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - He Was Gay, Then Everything Changed | The Christopher Yuan Story

Episode Date: September 29, 2026

What if the opposite of homosexuality isn't heterosexuality?Today's guest is Dr. Christopher Yuan. And no, this is NOT the story you think it is. He didn't pray the gay away, and he didn't become a Christian and suddenly turn straight. Months away from becoming a dentist, Christopher was secretly using and dealing drugs across state lines, even to one of his professors, until federal agents showed up at his door. What happens next is a powerful reminder that God's grace is infinite.Thank you to our sponsors!ZEBRA: Use code "ALEX" for 10% off any orderCROWDHEALTH: Use code “CULTURE” to get your first three months for only $99/monthCOWBOY COLOSTRUM: Use code “ALEX” for 25% OFF PRIMALLY PURE: Use code ALEXCLARK for 15% off your first orderQ FOR QUINN: Use code "ALEX" for 15% off your non-toxic clothing todayBIRTHRIGHT: Use code "ALEX" for 15% off your first orderOur Guest:Christopher YuanChristopher's Links:WebsiteBooksInstagramFacebookYouTubeTikTokXFOLLOW ALEX:⁠Alex's Instagram⁠⁠Culture Apothecary's Instagram⁠⁠Alex's YouTube⁠⁠Alex's Facebook⁠⁠Alex's X⁠🌿 Culture Apothecary ⁠WEBSITE/NEWSLETTER⁠Join the ⁠Cuteservatives Facebook group⁠ to connect with like minded friends who love America and all things health and wellness! New episodes drop 6pm PST/ 9pm EST every Monday and Thursday.DISCLAIMER: This content is for informational purposes only and is not medical advice. Always talk to a qualified healthcare professional for any health-related questions or decisions.

started selling drugs. Open up my door and on my doorstep, 12 federal drug enforcement agents, Atlanta police. I was high the whole time. Alex, it's a miracle. I still have a brain. I took my dad's Bible and I threw it in the trash can. So she wrote something on a piece of paper and she slowly slid it across the destiny.

And on that piece of paper, it read H-I-V- Positive. I've destroyed my life. And I'm looking up at the cold metal bunk above me and it read, if you're bored, read Jeremiah 29-11. For I know the plans that I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you. Plans to give you hope and a future. If God could have a plan for Judah in rebellion in exile, he might even still have a plan for me. What if you were attracted to the same sex your entire life, became completely convinced that you were born that way, openly embraced being gay, and then one day decided that your sex.

didn't get to tell you who you were anymore. And no, this is not the story you think it is. My guest today, Dr. Christopher Yuan, did not pray the gay away. He did not become a Christian and suddenly become straight. In fact, he says the opposite of homosexuality isn't heterosexuality at all. But to understand how he got there and what that even means, you have to understand where he started. Christopher was months away from becoming a dentist

while secretly living a completely different life, parting, using drugs, and eventually becoming an interstate drug. drug dealer. He was even selling drugs to one of his professors. He was expelled from dental school, moved to Atlanta, and continued dealing until federal agents showed up at his door. What happens next is Hollywood movie worthy. This is an incredible story of hope and how no matter how bad things get, no matter how many terrible mistakes you make, God's grace is infinite. And we are so undeserving, but that's why God is so good. Watch this interview on the real Alex Clark YouTube channel or culture apothecary on Spotify. And please pause, leave a five,

start of you letting us know what you think having some of these longer story type of episodes are. I'd love to hear your opinion. Please welcome author of Holy Sexuality, Dr. Christopher Yuan, to culture apothecary. You were three months away from becoming a dentist. You were selling drugs to your professor. You were living as a gay man. You hated Christianity. In fact, you threw away your dad's Bible. And then federal agents show up at your door. Take us back to this moment in your life where it all comes to a head. It all kind of began when I was really, I was just a young kid, and I'm not a Christian. So I wasn't a Christian at that time.

My parents were Christian. My parents are Chinese. They came here, and we didn't own a Bible. We didn't own a church. But I wrestled with my sexuality from a young age, and I kept it hidden. You know, this is way back, not like now when it was popular. And I came out to my mom and dad and amazingly God. use that crisis to bring my mother to faith. I went in the total opposite direction. I'm originally

from Chicago, and I moved from Chicago to Louisville. I was pursuing my doctor in a dentistry there. Okay, cool. So I'm from Southern Indiana, Louisville area. Okay. So I'm very familiar. Yeah, I have a 502 area code for my phone number. Yes, yes. So, and it's, I learned how to pronounce it correctly. It's Louisville. It's like all one, you know, one garbally, one garble syllable. So I was in Louisville. I went to University of Louisville School of Dentistry, and I came out there. And I was like, man, this is who I am. Finally, I'm free.

You know, it's all the things that you hear. This is who I am. Told my mom and dad, my mom gave me an ultimatum, kind of your typical tiger mom. She was going to control the situation. You need to either choose the family or choose that. Well, this is not my choice. This is who I am. So I left home, devastated my mom.

And she was actually going to end her life. Family was everything, especially in the Asian culture. And God amazingly used that crisis to bring my mother to faith. I mean, my testimony might sign radical. Hers is just as radical. She also hated Christians because that's all she knew about Christianity was just Christians. And God saved her. Like when you say all she knew about Christianity,

Are you talking about just growing up in communist China, just told to hate Christianity? She fled communism. Right. And so she was in Taiwan, the non-communist, the democratic China. All she knew was she even talks about in Taiwan, she would see these Christians with these white robes. And it says, I'm a sinner. And she was so offended by that because sinner in Chinese means criminal. Same word.

I'm a criminal. And she's like, that's so dumb. Why are you saying you're a criminal? And, you know, so she's thinking, I'm not. a criminal. I never murdered anyone. I never stole anyone. I never, you know, said anything on fire. And so she's like, I am not a sinner. And then when she came to the United States, she came for graduate school. My father did it as well. And so all, she had some experience with Christians, but it was all negative. They were kind of hypocrites. They were mean to her. So she was like,

the last thing I want is to be one of them. And God in his irony showed that we don't worship people. We don't look to Christians. We look to Christ. And she learned that she was a sinner, which means you're imperfect. And that was so freeing from my mom is a bit of a perfectionist. And she was always trying to pursue perfection, but you can never pursue perfection. You're imperfect.

And that was so much pressure. And when she kind of realized, oh, that's okay. I am a sinner. I'm imperfect and God still loves me. She realized that she could still love me, though I was doing something that I disagreed with. She didn't have the concept of that this was sin yet, but she could still love me, even though I had kind of rejected her in the family. So God saved her. Within a few months, my father did as well. I went in the total opposite direction. So I was in my early 20s, in Louisville, Kentucky, and there was very close to the dental school, a gay club, just happened to be there. Like, you never have to look for sin.

And this is something I think it's important that parents need to hear, moms need to hear. Kids don't need to look for sin. Sin will find them. The enemy will find them. And so we need to really prepare our children. And so I started going out to the gay clubs while I was in dental school. I thought, yeah, I could do this both. You know, we think we can have our cake and eat it too.

So I wanted to be a graduate student. I was pursuing my doctorate and dentistry. And what was sad was a lot of them were going and getting drunk as well and going out to the bars. And then I went to the club, the gay club, and I came out and I just found so much freedom. And which sin will give you freedom for a moment, won't it? I thought I could do both. Well, unfortunately I couldn't.

I was eventually expelled from dental school. And I then moved. What was the reason behind the expulsion? I thought that I could do both. But at that time, I was, I started doing drugs. I started selling drugs. What kind of drugs? Like ecstasy and party drugs.

Party drugs. Yeah, the designer drugs. Crystal methamphetamine and ketamine. So all stuff. very, very dangerous. But I justified it because I first said, well, it's just a pill. And it looks just like an aspirin. And it's so easy for us to justify. You do this, well, it's not as bad as game. You know, I said, well, I'm not smoking anything or I'm not shooting anything in my arm. It's just a pill. Well, that leads to something else. It definitely drugs are a gateway to other

thing. So I started just with ecstasy seeming harmless. And I thought, well, I'm just doing it one day a week. Well, it grew to two days a week and it just grew from there. And so I was selling drugs. At first, I was just selling drugs just enough to pay for my own habit. But that's not how sin works. Sin will pull you in. And I started making lots of money. And I became successful in the drug dealing scene and so I was I was traveling all around the country throughout the school year who does that all around the country so this was not just confined to Louisville no no so there's something in the gay gay gay scene called circuit parties where you would go to like palm springs there's a white party you know and then you would go to Miami and they would have that's another white party and you would go

to Montreal for the black and blue ball and so the big cities all have their big weekend during the summer usually, sometimes during the spring and fall, and there would be entire weekends and you'd just be back to back to back to back parties. And how do you do that? Drugs. So I would then supply you get network. I actually even had this whole mail order business. Crazy. This is before 9-11. So you could do anything back in 9-11. I mean, I even traveled with drugs strapped to my body. And it was, I even got stopped. And they're like, well, it's not a bomb.

So they just let me through. Totally different now. Yeah, totally different now. Now they'll confiscate your toothpaste if it's too much. Right, right, exactly. So I, you know, at that time, again, it was the success. It draws you in. It's so tantalizing, the money, the fame.

When you have what other people want, they're going to treat you like a God. And we love that. I mean, we love being fed our flesh to be something that we're not. And I'm just so reminded of Romans 1 where

Paul talks about that God handed us over all of humanity and we began worshipping the creature rather than the creator. And in that context, he's talking about idolatry. Idols are created things. But I was a

created man in a sense. And I was wishing myself when I really should be worshiping the creator. So I just spiraled down and I thought I could do both, right? I thought I could, and I wasn't even necessarily failing. I was getting C's, but Cs actually aren't passing in graduate school. I passed part one national boards, part two national boards, but I just wasn't attending class. Okay. And so that's why they wanted to get rid of you. So they expelled me. And then when did you start selling drugs to your professor? So it was he was just a guy that was a young professor. Was he gay also? Is that how he found out? Yeah. Yeah. And he was one of the clinical, you know, he taught in the in the clinics because we were seeing patients as well, you know,

doing crowns and bridges and dentures and, you know, cavities and stuff like that. So he was one of those clinical professors and going out to the clubs. And, you know, I sold, I sold to him. I mean, he wasn't, you know, one of my regular customers, but that's how normalized it becomes. You know, we treat everything as this is just normal. Everyone else is doing it. And so I was expelled. I then moved to Atlanta, Georgia, so further south. And at that time, I kept doing what I knew how to do best, which is have fun.

And at that time, I was making lots of money selling drugs. And when you're kicked out, how close were you to graduation? Yeah, three months. Essentially, all I needed, I needed, I already passed my part one and part two national boards. All I needed was my doctorate to take the licensing exam to be able to start practicing. And that's all I needed. In your mind were you just like, oh, I could just get that in a couple months? Like, I'll just take a break or what were you thinking? Well, so they expelled me and my parents flew from Chicago. And there had been other cases similar to that where, you know, a student was suspended, then expelled. And the father sued the school and they kept him in. So I was like, dad, that's all you need to do.

Sue the school. Because, you know, you put a lawsuit. And if you're just a few months, well, a lawsuit is not going to be resolved. and so you'll be able to, they'll have to stop and keep them in school until they resolve that issue. And I thought, my dad, that's all you need to do. Threat in a lawsuit, they'll keep me in school, I'll graduate, and I'm good. So my parents, both of them flew down. And my mom's a prayer warrior.

You know, once she came to faith, she was on fire for Jesus. She didn't know what she was going to say. And she just prayed for the Lord, just give me the words to say. So we were in the office with the dean. and the dean was expecting a war, us against him. You know, my parents and I against him, and my mom told the dean, it is not important that Christopher becomes a dentist. What's more important is that Christopher becomes a Christ follower.

Whoa. Were you like, why are you saying this right now? I was furious. You're like, what does this have to do with anything? No, that's the opposite of what you're supposed to say. I was so upset. And then she said, we, meaning her and my dad, we're going to support whatever decision you made, you make.

I was fuming. I probably was bright red. The dean literally, I mean, he probably had a, you know, a whole folder of the reasons why they were going to expel me, you know, all. And they had pretty much an open shut case. And so he was ready for a fight, pull it out. Well, you know, your son didn't do this. He didn't, whatever. And he literally was like quiet because he just didn't know what to say.

He was like, oh, almost like not even is, you know, certain of what he heard. So I was so upset. I was so furious. And I'm like, that's it. I don't want anything more to do my parents because I was like, they don't love me. They do. They just, they weren't going to get in God's way. And I think a lot of times parents, they confuse love with enabling.

They think if I remove this consequence from my kids' life, that's love. In many cases, it's the opposite of love. God uses consequences to wake up our children. You know, God, the prodigal son, the father did not, like, you know, prevent him from going off to the far country. He let him go. Yeah. And God used the far country. God use feeding the swine.

God use him wasting even all his father's, half of his father's inheritance for that son to come back and to say, you know, I once, this is my son who once was dead and now he's alive. So I'm so glad that my mom was so desperate to hear from the Lord what to do. And she even will say, God gave her those words to say. So then you're in Atlanta. Yes. At what point do federal agents show up at your door? So I moved to Atlanta in 1996, so that's the Olympics. And so that was the height of Atlanta turning around.

Atlanta was just kind of in really bad shape. the Olympics really did turn it around. It was a beautiful, brand new, bright city. And it was like the phoenix rising out of the ashes. And the, it was a very active gay community. I had already a lot of friends there. So my drug business boomed. It was, I was not just a drug dealer, but I was supplying to other dealers in over a dozen states. And I was, I was, you know, I was. throwing parties and I was a producer of these large, large parties. And I had it. You know, I had the money.

I had the fame. I have the drugs. I had the sex. What else do you want in life when you don't know Christ? My parents came to visit me one time. They didn't know that I was doing drugs, but they knew that I just needed to know Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. They tried to reach out to me and I wanted nothing to do with it.

And so they came to visit me. and after the second day I kicked my mom and dad out. I feel so bad. But I had enough. And my dad, before he left, gave me his very first Bible. And it was all dog-eared and notes in the margins. And I was like, Dad, I don't want your Bible. I don't even want you to think that I might read it.

My dad, he's pretty persistent. and he put it on my kitchen counter and walked out. And after they left, I took my dad's Bible and I threw it in the trash can. That's how much I despised God in His Word. I wanted nothing to do with it. And it was just obvious to my mom and dad, especially after that visit, that I was hopeless. But my mom and dad committed not to focus on the hopelessness, but upon the promises of God. God. And my parents got over a hundred prayer warriors from their church, from their Bible study

fellowship group to cry out to God for me. My mom began to pray a bold prayer. God, do whatever it takes, whatever it takes to bring this prodigal son to you. She fasted every Monday for eight years. Oh my gosh. And once God called her to fast and, you, didn't tell her at end date and she ended up fasting for 39 days. What? How was it possible? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, she did it. She was only no solid. Obviously, you got to drink water, especially when you're fasting. But she just did juices. And she just felt, and you'll have to hear her whole, she felt amazing. She was like the first two or three days was hard. and then third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh day. So my dad didn't, you know, because guys, we need our food.

There's a comparison of how ladies can fast compared to guys. We're like two hours, I need my food. But my dad, he would, he didn't fast. But he says even after like the third, fourth, six, seven days, my dad was like, you smell. Because I think the toxins were literally coming. Isn't that called like ketosis or whatever her body was in ketosis? And then after the seventh day, she was, she said she was like on a high. She felt like she could do it forever.

And the only thing, and she kept praying that God show me a sign to stop. And on the 39th day, her fingertips started cramping and her toes started cramping. And it was just, you know, so weird. And she was like, I think that's the sign. And she stopped. And my dad was like, come on, just push it like one more day. So you can say you can do 40, right? You know, and, you know, do it on your own strength.

Now it's competitive. Right, exactly. Do it on your own strength. And my mom, she's just so sensitive to the Holy Spirit. I was like, no, God is telling me 39. And she stopped. But anyway, she, but, you know, it was her using that time to really pray, to fast for me for other people. and she just, she had a prayer closet.

She would stay in there for hours. And she would be on her knees. She had a little pillow. And she would just stay in there and just reading God's word, praying. She had the walls just covered with post-it notes of prayer request and prayers even. She sometimes likes to write out her prayers. And she would just have that up there. And just, it's amazing.

And she prayed for a miracle and things were getting worse. I was getting worse and worse and worse and worse. And finally, God answered that prayer with a bang on my door. Open up my door and on my doorstep, 12 federal drug enforcement agents, Atlanta police, and two big German Shepherd dogs. And, you know, drugs does something to you that makes you feel invincible, obviously, that you don't reality. and what you think don't align. Were you high? I was high the whole time.

I mean, literally, I would stay up for five, ten days. You know, that's what meth. And meth is one thing, but crystal meth is this pure form that they tick out, you know, I mean, it's all toxins. It's all horrible stuff. But it's so much more stronger and it's so much more dangerous. Alex, it's a miracle. I still have a brain. I am thinking that.

as you're telling me this. It's literally a miracle that I was able to finish school after that, actually get a doctorate in ministry after that. It's a miracle I can stand here and finish a sentence. Yes, it is. Isn't that God's grace? Yes. I mean, he could have totally not only destroyed me physically, but mentally.

I mean, we see all the people that are, you know, on the streets. I mean, that's the problem. It's homelessness is just the symptom, but it's the psychological, health and the drugs. And it really, really is a miracle. I don't think I'm as sharp. You know, I sometimes lose my thought, so I can blame it on drugs. Totally.

So when they're standing there, they've got these two big dogs, 12 agents, what are you thinking in your mind? I thought this isn't happening. There's no way. But I still thought I could get out of it. Because I was like, I've gotten out of everything. I'm in control. You know, and I'm going to get a slap on the wrist, and that's it.

So they took everything. And, Alex, this is so funny because I, my dad was a dentist. And in the Chinese culture, like, it's not just your dad works. Like my mom worked, was the office manager. And then me and my brother, we worked there too. So after school, we would go. So we would learn the ins and outs of not only dentistry and the lab work that happened because we would do some of that lab where we would pour the models.

We would do stuff like that, clean the instruments, sterilize the instruments. But we also do some of the bookwork just to help my mom. So I, each patient kind of has what we call a ledger card. So when I was in the drug business, I applied everything that I had learned. Oh, my word. To your drug clients? So I would have like ledger cards. And I would, you know, write out, well, on this date, he bought this.

And, you know, so I just, you know, I wanted to have a record so that way I can go back, be like, oh, well, you know, last month I charged you this. I thought I was slick and I would use code. Of course, they could figure it out. I kept receipts, too. I mean, I was raised, you know, working in the business. And I thought everyone kept their receipts. So when the DEA came, they opened up my filing cabinet, it was a gold mine.

It was a trove of information. I had every receipt, every place that I would go, like, to New York, to my big supplier, I had hotel bills. I had phone bills. And, you know, back then in phone bills, they had every phone number listed on there. Oh, my gosh. So when one of the agents pulled it open, he's flipping through, and his jaw just drops. Because he knows, I mean, like, I'm guilty. They can bust so many people.

They can bust so many people. So they're like, you're the dumbest drug. dealer of all time. I'm the dumbest, smartest, dumbest drug dealer. And the guy goes, boss, come here. And, but God used that because I obviously was guilty. I pled guilty. I didn't try to fight it. And so I was supposed to get 10 years to life. I only got six. How? Because I had cooperated. And, you know, and all that information was going to lead to, you know, others. But again, Even when I got six, I thought I was going to get a slap on the wrist. This is my first time.

And so it was devastating that I got that I got that. What was the first night in prison like for you? You know, I was so high on drugs for so long that once, and it was just a reality of, because they strip all your clothes, give you an orange suit. And I'm sitting there with all these drug addicts. And I don't know what they were, because you don't ask. murderers, but this is federal. So federal is less of the kind of petty crimes, which is murder. Murder is not a petty crime, but it was kind of the masterminds behind all the other, you know,

more petty crimes. I called all my friends because these are all friends that love me, right? These are all friends that do whatever, I'll do whatever, you know, whatever you need, give me a call. So I was calling them. No one answered my collect call. Wow. No one, not a single one. But what I didn't know, years before that was my mom began praying because she knew that my friends and my community were holding me back. Like she imagined it was like a tug-of-war. And I was kind of in the middle that on that rope, my parents on one side and my friends on the other. And it was a tug-of-war.

And so my parents imagined the more that... they would let up and push me away the more that I would go in the direction of my, of my friends in the world. And they just, my mom and dad knew that's why they were like, they were not going to let go. They were not going to push me away. I was pushing them away. And they kept reaching out. So I called all my friends.

No one answered. And I'm like, well, I got to call someone. So I was like, I guess I'll try calling home. But I was like, I don't want to call home because I'm just going to get. yell that, I'm going to, you know, whatever. My parents, I told you you shouldn't have done this. So I was like, okay, I called just wincing, imagining what I'm going to hear. My mom picks up and the first thing she says, she says, are you okay?

No condemning words, no berating, just words of unconditional love. How did that feel in that moment? It was shocking because I think my mom and dad that I knew before, before they came to Christ, it would have been, I can't believe it. Or whatever it is, you know, whatever a parent would say. And that was, God was already showing me that my parents had changed, but I wasn't going to see it. Right? I mean, we've, that's why scripture does say we have blinders on. and I wasn't going to see it.

And I look back now and I do see it, but I didn't see it then. And I remember that was the first time that I thought, oh, that's different. One of my listeners sent me a message that absolutely killed me. She said, Alex, zebra toothpaste tablets are officially the number one product you've ever recommended to my family. I thought, that's incredible. You know, it's not a $5,000 sauna. It's not a fancy supplement. It's toothpaste.

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They intentionally leave out both fluoride and hydroxyappetitated zebra because that's the philosophy behind their formula. Black and white ingredients. Get it? Zebra. Honestly, my toothbrush kind of feels unemployed if I don't have zebra anymore. Go to yayzebra.com. Use code Alex for 10% off. That's yayzebra.com. Code Alex for 10% off. I have officially started pairing fall movies with cowboy colostrum drinks. If you're watching when Harry Met Sally, you're making a vanilla after. apple pie latte. Easy. Warm whole milk with a splash of apple cider, cinnamon, and a little maple syrup. Let it cool slightly and then froth in vanilla cowboy colostrum. Now, your Meg Ryan walking through Central Park. You have fabulous knitwear. You've never opened Instagram because it's the

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Go to cowboy colostrum.com, use code Alex 25 for 25% off. That's cowboy colostrum.com, Alex 25 for 25% off. So you were really in prison for six years? I actually ended up just doing three. How soon into this three years did you get saved? It was the testimony of my mother first that softened, right? I mean, when someone's so hardened to God, remember I threw the trash, the garbage in the trash, when you're so hardened, there needs to be something.

Something that God uses to soften you to it. And it was kind of like my mom like that. She then said on the phone, I'm going to come and visit you. She literally, less than 24 hours, got on a plane from Chicago and flew down to come see me. I had friends that were literally less than five minutes away. And within that 24 hours, no one, actually within my three years, no one. None of my friends came to see me. And my mom flew hundreds of miles.

And remember, I was rejecting her. My parents don't love me. They don't know me. They don't accept me. And she was the only one that came the next day to see me. And we were, you know, it was a glass. I couldn't see her. She couldn't see me.

And she had never been in a prison before. She never even knew what a jail was. You know, that's not part of our, none of, we knew no one that ever even got arrested and been to jail, you know, for driving or whatever, DUI. We've never, we don't know anyone. So my mom was, she was just scared to death, even driving close to a jail. She went in and I don't know if you ever been to jail before, but if you haven't, that's good. But you have to go through this hallway and these gates open. and they're automatic, and it's quiet and dark and cold, and it's, it's echoing.

It's super loud opens. And then it's almost like Lord of the Rings or something like, you know, like you're in the dungeon, literally. And when it closes, bam, you've got to walk through five of those. And my mom, you've seen her. She's this short, short, short, short little. And she's shrinking now, so she's under five. but and she was just praying God give me strength and she also prayed God don't let me cry as a mom you know

you're seeing your son for the first time in prison she's like God don't let me cry and so she went in she was like she wanted to like say something funny so she's like oh I like your new apartment you know or something like I can't remember exactly and and then she brought pictures of when I was a kid to like reconnect me to like who I really am. That's smart. Brought just pictures and she put it up on the thing so I could see. And I'm just like, you know, just I, you know, I was just very moved.

And I don't remember much that we were talking. And you don't have a lot of time. I mean, I don't know what. It felt like five minutes. Maybe it's more. But at the end, my mom was really bold and she said, can I pray for you? Because before, what would I say? No.

No. Don't pray for me. And I said, yes. And we put our hands up on the screen on the glass through the phone. And she prayed for me. I don't remember what she prayed, but it was like, that was just a seed. So a few days after that, I was back in the cell. And I was walking in the cell block.

And I'm just like, I'm not going to. I didn't want to talk much with the other people because I don't know who they were. Well, I was wondering, like, how much of your identity and your story and stuff are you sharing with these people? Are you, like, keeping everything private? So, you know, before, this is back in 2008, December of 98 and January 99. So it was becoming a little more, but, you know, in the 90s, early 2000s, still a lot of stigma for people that are openly gay, identifying as gay. And so I, when I was out in the world, I didn't care.

I was out and open. I didn't care what anyone think. It's not like now when it was popular. But once I got in, I didn't tell anyone because you're going to be living with those guys 24-7 for who knows how long. And I, you know, what they would have said then or what I would have said is I kind of went back in the closet. But again, that's God's sovereignty.

because I needed to be pull out of that community, because the community that we surround ourselves in, it affects our thoughts, our choices, and our relationships. That's why identity is not just an inconsequential thing. And God needed to pull me out of that so I would have a clear mind to think through things. And I didn't realize that. So I was not open about that, about my sexuality or my struggles or my sin or my past. So I was walking on the cell block, and I passed by this garbage can, and I'm like, that's my life. You know, I'm from, my dad had two daughters.

I'm from upper middle class sober of Chicago. I was three months, right, away from receiving my doctor. And I'm like, I had it made. And now I'm in jail. Trash. I was about to pass by this garbage can, and there was something on top of the trash. And it was a Gideon's New Testament. And I took that new testament back to myself.

mind you, you know, I, I, I hated God. I hated the Bible. And you've been in prison for how long? Just three days. Okay. Three days. But I'm thinking, I've got nothing else to do. Literally nothing else to do. You've got, you know, you're waking hours and it's just sit here or talk to these other guys or sit there and watch TV, you know, and these grown men are sitting there watching soap operas. And I'm like, I'm not. going to watch a soap opera. I was like, here's a book. I can read. I'm going to pass some time. So did you start at Genesis? Did you open it randomly? So this is a New Testament. And I was familiar just from college about, you know, Gospels. I never read them. So, you know, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. So I was like, I flipped through. I'm like, okay, Mark is the shortest. And I read through the gospel of Mark that night. What did you think about? Mark? I had heard about the story about Jesus, but I, you know, there isn't much that I remember,

but I do remember that from reading, and not just Mark, but others that like, that I'm a sinner. And as I kept reading, because the New, the Gideon's New Testament, from what I remember, is the New Testament, I believe, plus Psalms, I think. But I remember reading it through and I thought, man, I'm a sinner. I think I read Romans after and Romans just lays out the gospel so clearly, right? The first few chapters, you know, no one seeks after God. The wages of sin is death. I'm like, oh my goodness. And it's interesting, Alex, I read Romans 1 and everyone's going to think, you read that passage, Romans 1, verses 26 and 27, non-homosexuality. No.

That is not what stood out to me most. What stood out to me most from Romans 1, the whole chapter, was disobedient to your parents. All the other stuff. I was like, well, I don't do that stuff. And that's not, and, you know, a lot of people say that that's not about homosexuality. It is. But at that time, I thought, this is not about, this is not pertaining to me. But you know what I couldn't argue with?

I was disobedient to my parents. I had shunned their love. I had treating them so poorly. And here, and this is evidence. Like, where are all my friends? My friends treat me great. Well, where are they? I treated my parents horribly, and they're the only ones that came to visit me.

Yeah. And it was just, that was the visible. tangible way of me seeing God's love. So when did you become convinced that Christianity was actually true? It took time. You know, it's funny because some people that are like, like my mom, she was going to end her life, she was going to say goodbye to me in Louisville. She got on the train, literally on the train.

A chaplain, a friend of my dads gave her a little booklet on homosexuality, which had the gospel in it. She was on the train, read it. She boarded on the train. dead in her sins, and she got off the train alive in Christ. So it was just like that day. It took a while for me. I think it's because I'm just more stubborn.

I would say within that first year, so I started reading the Bible, found the Bible in the trash can, they transferred me. And before they transferred me out of Atlanta, I, you know, they go through with all prisoners. They do all the tests and stuff just to check your health and SDD. all of that. So I did all of that. And you go as a group. Well, then on one particular day, they only called me to the nurse. And I knew that was weird because they don't normally do that. They get like 10 people together. They bring everyone to the hospital. Everyone goes to do the whole test and tests and blood tests or whatever. And then you go back. They only called me. And I like, well, that's weird.

Go to the nurse's office, which is at the hospital. So they had to transfer me, you know, in a van to the hospital and get me there. And the nurse was just acting weird. She closed the door. And here I am. I'm handcuffed, feet chained together. She couldn't even like look at me in the eyes. So she wrote something on a piece of paper and she slowly slid.

across sedestomy, and on that piece of paper, it read HIV positive. Again, this is the end of the 90s. So that was a death sentence for me. I didn't know, was I even going to make it through this prison sentence? At that time, what did people understand about HIV? People died from that. And they would be HIV positive. It would develop into AIDS.

And there wasn't a cure. there's still no cure. And I just had a friend that just died of it a few months before that. And I knew lots of other friends that had it and they were not doing well. And they had some serious health concerns. And I'm like, I'm in prison, got sentenced six years. Remember I thought I was going to get nothing? And then I get this death sentence.

I made Jopi positive. So I go back and I can't tell anyone in the cell. I got to pretend everything's fine. You know, because no one knows that... Were you like keeping to yourself at this point? Or had you made some friends? I had made some friends, but they didn't know. Could you only hang out your own race or like what was it like in there?

Well, there weren't a lot of Chinese. So it was all either African American, Hispanic, and a few whites. So who were you with? I tried to kind of do a little bit of both. You were like a floater. I was a floater, yeah. But I did make a good friend with a guy who was a Caucasian. Same name, Christopher, his parents were praying for him.

We were born on the same day, same year. And we had the same charge, same prosecutor, Christopher Cloud, and we're still friends. And he was coming back to the Lord, too. so we would hang out so that we kind of connected over that. We became Selma's either and we would work out together and stuff like that because that's all you could do. We worked out and read the Bible. That's great. I know, right?

It's like what a, I tell people, like prison wasn't so bad, you know. They feed you, they clothe you, you read the Bible, you work out. And, I mean, it wasn't the best food. But still, it was easy, no bills, none of that. Right. But still don't go to prison. So was the other Christopher the first person you did share your diagnosis with or you still didn't tell him either? Because we knew each other and because he were selling the same thing, we're kind of selling the same club even.

So was he also gay? So he was like, but I'm not gay. So there's one club that's kind of like an overnight club, one of those. It was a club that was open 24-7. that when all the other clubs closed, everyone just went there. Yeah. And so he was there. We were in different parts because that's a big club.

So our networks never crossed. But I did share with him that, but he knew he didn't tell anyone else about that. So got this diagnosis. Then right after that, they moved me. They were transferred me to do my time. And so that's moving me from the jail to the prison. and I was in this holding cell all by myself. He was at nighttime.

No one else was there. And I'm just like, I'm in prison. Got the, you know, six years, which is, you know, that's a long time. So you're thinking I'm going to die before I can't even get out. Yes. And I was lying there and just like, I've destroyed my life. And I'm looking up at the cold metal bunk above me because these beds are just metal. And they have these thin, thin, you know,

styrofoam pads as mattresses. And I'm like graffiti, profanity, swear words, all of this. Someone had written something, something else. And it read, if you're bored, read Jeremiah 2911. For I know the plans that I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you. Plans to give you hope and a future. there could have been any verse on there. Yeah, that's interesting.

Any verse. It just said that. So I had to actually find, I didn't know what Jeremiah 29, 11. And so I happened to kind of scound around in the cell, and I found a full Bible, and I turned to it. And then I read the whole context. And it was talking about how God was talking to Judah, this rebellious nation, and he said later, a few verses later, and I'm going to call you out of captivity. And I'm like, I'm in captivity right now. Judah was in captivity and Judah, this nation, was rebelling.

And God was still saying to them, I have a plan for you. And I'm thinking, if God could have a plan for Judah in rebellion, in exile, he might even still have a plan for me. And I didn't know where that plan was going to take me. But it was at that moment that God gave me enough faith and of strength to get through that one day and the next and the next. And I wouldn't even say I was a Christian then, but God had to peel away these layers. So I was transferred to this prison and I began reading the Bible more. They actually even asked me to lead Bible studies and I'm like, I'm a brand new Christian.

They're like, yeah, but you've been to college. We haven't. So you're going to, it's not like I had a choice. And God used that because if you're teaching even a Sunday school and I was later preaching, you have to study it. I learned way more than I was teaching. And I was growing so fast in my faith. And I- And does your mom know any of this is happening? So I was sharing.

So like the one night where someone was like, you're going to preach next Sunday. Like, let me pray about it. Isn't that our, like, that's our Christian no. Like, when you just, I'm going to pray about it. It means really no. Well, the problem was I did pray about it. And I could not sleep that night. And God was just like, he was so much stirring and he was like giving me the message that I need to.

And my simple message, I'm almost embarrassed to look at what I preached on was unforgiveness. That these men were not forgiving and they were still justifying their sin. Like people take. talk about I caught a case. Like we catch a cold. You get like, no, you, you sold drugs. No, you stole from the bank. No, you. And we need to admit to that. And we need to repent of that. And so that was my message, my very first message that God was laying on my heart. I couldn't sleep. So that morning, I couldn't sleep. And I called home. And I'm like, mom, can you send me every, all the notes that you have on repentance and forgiveness? And she's like,

like why? Well, they asked me to preach. And so my, I mean, my mom was like, is this for real? So she next day aired me like a stack of notes on forgiveness. And she was just printing stuff out. She had stuff from her Bible study fellowship. And she was just sending me all this stuff. And so I used that for my sermon. But then I still was thinking I could have my cake and eat it to. I was like, I'm going to be a Christian, but I'm going to be gay as well. You're right? I mean, we see people all over the place. I'm a gay Christian. All the time. All the time. God loves me. And I thought, so I can too. So I was reading the Bible. You're right? Because lots of time I'm in mind you're eating, sleeping, reading the Bible, and working out. And so I was reading the Bible. And,

man, there's these three passages in the Old Testament, three passages in the New Testament. If you're just reading them, it's very clear homosexuality is a sin. But I'm like, but I hear from like, you know, I thought people said, no, that's not. So I need to ask someone. Well, no one in prison knows. Maybe I can talk to the chaplain. Chaplain's a pastor. He preaches.

He's, you know, study the Bible. He's read through the Bible. You know, he's gone to cemetery, seminary. And he, so I shared with him, mind you, I haven't told him. So I was like, okay, you know, at that time, I was still saying I'm gay. You know, I don't say that anymore. And I said, is homosexuality a sin? And I'm just getting ready.

You know, he's going to say, yes, et cetera. And he told me, the Bible does not condemn homosexuality. sexuality. And inside I'm like, yes. And he goes to his shelf. Here's a book that explains that view. And he said, I can let you read it. Why don't you read it here in the office or that way you don't have to take it back to yourselves? Because, I mean, he was on there, you know, same-sex relationships and... Yeah, you didn't want anyone seen. No, no. So I was like, great. Now I can have my cake and eat it to and have biblical justification. So I'm sitting down, at, you know, it was a room, and so I had his book here, but I had the Bible next to it.

So I'm going through chapter one reading, and he's like mentioning this verse. I was like, okay, well, let me read the primary source. I mean, that's, you know, I've been to college, I've been to graduate school, so that's what we do. You don't just read, you've got to read the footnotes, you've got to see, especially if you're citing, this is important because this is everything. So I was like, okay, he's mentioning Romans 1. Let me read it. that's not what the Bible's saying. Well, let me keep reading. Read, read, read.

Another verse. That's not what the Bible's saying. I couldn't finish the first chapter. Of this thing. Yeah. This man-written book. And I gave it back to the chaplain. What did you say?

Did you say like, this is not? So I didn't tell him at that time, but I was like, oh, thank you. You know. And he's like, you know, you're going to come back later. I was like, yeah, you know, maybe. I don't remember what I said. But I just thought, I just need to turn to the Bible alone. And I thought, let's just set these passages aside that condemn it. Let's just look at all the other passages. Right on, the Bible's way more than just six verses. So let's read the whole Bible and see if there's anything else in the

Bible that might bless a monogamous same sexual relationship. So, Alex, I went through the whole Bible. I went every verse, every chapter, every page. I went cover to cover, you know, several times because I had time. I went over and over and over looking for justification. I couldn't find any. So in my mind, I was at this turning point, either abandon God in his word, live as a gay man, pursuing a monogamous same-sex relationship by allowing my sexual attractions to dictate not only who I was but also how I lived,

or abandon pursuing a gay relationship by freeing myself from my sexuality, by not allowing my desires to control who I am and live as a follower of Jesus Christ. By God's grace, I followed Jesus. And at that point, I didn't even know what that meant. But as God had taken me away, away from my community, right? So I wasn't surrounded by all my gay friends and they're wonderful,

really nice people, very creative, very healthy, and just nice, nice people, but they didn't know Christ. And they were justifying my flesh. God took me out away from that. But God also, I was not pursuing same-sex relationship. I was not only addicted to drugs. I was addicted to sex. And God pulled me out of all of that. And so I was now living abstinent. I mean, the world tells you you need sex to live. Like, you can't live without sex. That's what the world is telling you.

If I don't have sex, I'm going to go crazy. That's what Freud thinks. That's what Kinsey thinks. That's what politicians, the leftist politicians think. And so I thought I was not going to live. Well, here I am in prison, not having sex. and I'm thriving. And now, like, my mind is clear, not only not doing my two main drugs, sex and drugs,

illicit drugs, but I was thinking clearly now. And I was like, I can be abstinent. And so I was then doing this logical game. If I am abstinent and I'm not having sex, then why am I making sex the core part of who I am? Why am I making my sexuality this part that I can't separate for myself? It was this time. Like God needed, you know, you asked, when did you come to Christ? It was God peeling back these layers of my idols in my life, drugs, sex.

And that as God was pulling that away, I was like, then who am I? And how am I supposed to live? Because in the past, all I heard from media and how the media portrays the church is, well, you need to be straight. I'm like, is that what I'm supposed to be? If homosexuality is wrong, then heterosexuality is right. So are you like, just to get personal, are you sitting there in your jail cell reading this, coming to these conclusions about homosexuality being sin? And are you like picturing yourself with a woman like, can I do this?

Like, is this what I'm supposed to be? Like, I don't know. Like, are you going to doing that? And at that moment, remember, this is just a few months. Yeah. So I'm like, there's no way. Yeah. And you're like, I don't want.

I'm not attracted to that. I couldn't, well, so I'm attracted to the concept, right? I mean, who doesn't want a family and kids and the nice car and the picket fence, right? I mean, we all want that, but I was like, but all I've known was same-sex relationships. But God was, again, God and his sovereignty and His Holy Spirit was allowing me to, like, not fixate on that. and he was helping me to fixate on like just me. Like don't go to step two yet. And so he was like, but this is my whole struggle.

Is heterosexuality the goal? Do I need to be, not even the family and the kids, do I need to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex for this to be the goal? Right. So I was like, can I be a Christian if I'm not necessarily attracted to the opposite sex, but I'm not acting on same sex attraction? And is that the goal? to just be sexually attracted to the opposite sex, because I'm thinking, I'm reading in the Bible,

and I'm seeing the Bible's calling out a lot of heterosexual behaviors, sin, but also even the desires. Like, if it's for someone that's not your wife, lust. Jesus says if a man looks lustfully at another woman, not your wife, you've already committed adultery. So the Bible's calling it adultery. the Bible is calling out fornication. And I thought that is considered heterosexual. So it can't be just a blanket heterosexuality. Obviously, God blesses a man and a woman in marriage.

But that's only one form of heterosexuality. That's not representative of all the different forms of heterosexual relationships. For example, like I could be sleeping with a bunch of women and that's considered heterosexuality. Is that what God's calling me do? I could be a married guy cheating on my wife with another woman. Is that what God is calling me to? You're figuring out, okay, so what I've grown up hearing about is only like Christians hate gay people. You know, that's a sin.

But you are coming now to the conclusion of, oh, the Bible talks about a whole host of sexual sin. All sin and sexual sins, which, boy, that's all of us. Every person in the prison, whether they have opposite sex attractions, same sex attractions, or other sins, we're all sinners. And that was, see, a lot of times people were like, oh, that's so oppressive. No, for me, that was freeing because that meant, because I always told myself, I'm different from everyone else. I'm so different. And that's the enemy, I think, that wants to convince people, you're different. No one knows you, no one can understand you.

No, others can understand because we're all sinners. And Jesus understands us the most. And that was freeing for me to realize heterosexuality is not the goal in what is. It's holiness. and what is holiness? It's either chastity and singleness or faithfulness in marriage. That, Alex, was so, so freeing for me that there's precision and an exact calling that God has for every one of us.

Whether, in that moment, I was not married and I needed to be just chased. I needed to be abstinent. And I like the word chase because chase. because chase is more a positive thing, not abstinent is the no, chaste is the purity, the holiness. And I thought, you know, if God ever provides for me a wife, and this was also, I learned about God's sovereignty in prison because of my HIV. As I learned more and more and more about God, we all say, God is in control, right?

God is in control, God is in control, but do we mean it? God is in control. And I realize that even, especially like when we read about the story about Joseph, what the world, what you meaning his brothers meant for evil, God use it for good. I love that story because he was in prison. So I really related to that. And I thought, you know, my HIV, what the enemy meant for evil to kill me, God is using that to teach me about not only how precious life is,

but my life is in his hands. How? I came to realize God is in control. Before I was born, God knew me. He knew me by name. He knows every hair in my head. And he also knows not only when I would come to earth and be born, but also when I'm going to depart.

He knows the very, very exact day, the exact hour, the exact minute, the exact second. And I realized that that's already determined that as long as I'm in the center of God's will, I'm invincible. So it wasn't so much of me worrying about when I'm going to die. I need to be so fixated and fix my eyes on Jesus. He's the one that gives me life. He's the one that gives me health. He's the one that gives me joy. He's the one that gives me purpose.

And I need to be in the center of his will. And when I realize that, I also realize that about my sexuality. Like, okay, I can be chased. I'm doing that so far. I just need to focus on one day. I don't need to focus on how am I going to do this for 10 years? Like, don't we get so. But also like with HIV, and I just might be very ignorant on this, but also with HIV,

are you also, is it true that you couldn't even have sex with somebody else without telling them if it's unprotected? Like if you were to marry a woman. Yeah. She would either have to also have HIV or... It's so amazing now, the medication, that the medication has so suppressed all the HIV in my blood and in my body fluids, meaning the sexual fluids, that it's almost, they call it it, it's undetectable.

Oh, okay. It's only in my bone marrow and my spinal column, in my brain maybe where it's kind of hiding in the tissues. But it's basically nonexistent. So a person, a couple, can be sexually active, no protection, and the other partner will not get infected. Now, there are precautions that you could do where the spouse, like if they do, now, of course, they could increase my, like, let's just say, okay, this is the time period where, you know, we want to get pregnant. And so they can up my dose, give her some medication just for that one little, time period that they're trying to get pregnant and she won't get she won't get HIV.

I mean, it's pretty amazing. Now, for me, that would seem, you know, risky or whatever, but, you know, it's amazing how well the medications that, and back in 98, all these medications that they've had in the past 20 plus years, they didn't have back then. It was very, very, very toxic. People were dying from the medication. Yeah. ZT. If you've listened to this show for any amount of time, you know, I'm always talking about reading ingredient labels, not just on food, but skin care too. And one thing I really appreciate about Primely Pure is that they approach beauty from a skincare first perspective. Everything is designed to support healthy skin instead of just masking it.

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So are you like, I got to move home with my parents or what is your plan? Yeah. So our environment is everything, right? I mean, whether everything that we intake is going to affect us, you know, coming back to the food that we intake, even the air, right? The water, it affects us. That's our surroundings. And we need to be conscious about our community and who we're living with. Most people, they live on their own.

And that's difficult, especially when you're single. You can tell I'm Asian. And part of our Asian culture is family is everything. When you're not married, you live at home. Honestly, I think that's a very biblical way. When you read back in the Bible times, it's multi-generational living. It's multi-generate. And even when they get married, it's not like you're on your own, you got to move.

You just build a tent right next to your mom and dad and uncles and cousins. I mean, isn't that beautiful? I love that. And we totally have lost that. I think that's one thing that with the American culture that I think that we need to learn from the Middle Eastern culture, from the Asian and the Latin American cultures and the African cultures, it really is family. And there's no shame. I had to get over the shame.

I was 30 when I got out of prison. And I went right to Bible College. And that's a whole other story. You know, I applied to Bible College while I was in prison. So my references was a prison chaplain or prison guard and another convict. To write my reference to Bible College, I was accepted. And that was God's sovereignty as well, because I don't think I was ready yet maybe to move back home, even though I moved back to Chicago. but I was in this amazing community of godly young men and godly professors that I was able to

be in accountability groups and be held accountable. And I needed that really strong community. I would go home on weekends and got so much healed our relationship. But after I graduated from Bible College, because I never got my bachelor's before I went to graduate school, so I had to go back to get my bachelor's. and I just thought, well, I need to move home, but it was hard for me because at that time I was 35. Yeah. And we need to really get over that.

I think a lot of times we think that that's shameful. But it's not only about saving money, which is huge, right? I mean, just housing is just so ridiculous now. But it is community, especially if your parents are believers. Now, I'm not saying that they completely get you. you because there's going to be some difference in opinions and difference in the way they think, mom will always be mom. So they're going to help, you know, encourage you and challenge you and, you know, sometimes nag on you.

And that's just, we need that. But I think that we need some of that covering. We need, we do need that accountability. Going home in the middle of the, you know, in the evening and no one's home, that would be such an opportunity. not only for to be sad and to feel lonely, but sin. Right. So this is what I'm like, I want to know, is obviously, when you talk about your story and your sexuality, you're not saying I prayed the gay away or like I just overnight him straight now.

Yes. Right. So how are you, how do you explain your sexuality? Yes. I use the term holy. So it's not homosexuality, not heterosexuality, but holy sexuality. and I'm pursuing by my actions and my desires to be either whatever situation I find myself in. Right now I'm single.

And so I'm going to be chased. Chasing my actions, chased in my desires. Even if I had, you know, I shouldn't be having opposite sexual attractions toward anyone right now. I'm not dating anyone. I'm not engaged to anyone. I'm not married to anyone. So I need to be resisting all of those desires for now. I need to be open for if God provides for me a wife, and I'm totally open to that.

I sometimes speak to young adults and college students, and I have this really strange belief about marriage that I believe in arranged marriages. I'm not totally against it. I think this is partly Christianity, partly the Asian in you. Well, no, no, you got to hear me out. I believe in arranged marriages by God. Okay, yeah. God is sovereign, isn't he?

and God has already arranged. I mean, I even believe that the beautiful story you told me, that's God. Oh, about Van Gogh. God arranged that. Yeah. Did he not? You know, with all your friends. I mean, that's amazing.

God arranged that. And so what I need to focus on is not trying to find and figure out and choose. I need to be in the will of God, renewing my mind every day, in prayer. God, what, and if God provides. a wonderful godly woman, he's going to make it so obvious to me, like she's the one. You need to pursue. You need to begin that relationship. I need to be in prayer.

I need to be seeking Godly counsel. God is the one that arranges marriage. And I'm totally 100%. But that does not mean I need to be sexually attracted to lots and lots of other women. I need to be following God. Are you attracted to women at all? Or still you're like, you catch yourself. Like sometimes you see yourself.

attracted to a man or do you, I don't know, like, what happened? Like when you get out of prison, are you like trying to control, like, I see this guy and I think he's attractive or you start finding women attractive? So obviously, right out of prison, you know, that's, that was only three years from when I stopped doing drugs and stopped even having sex. It was so hard initially. It was, it was a battle, kind of sometimes feeling like white knuckling it. It's just like whenever, when you're dealing with any type of addiction, it's going to be really, really hard initially.

And that struggle is going to be for, it's not always goes away. Sometimes it does for some people, but it doesn't go away right away. And I think so over time as God has been renewing my mind, and we need to not just resist. I think that's sometimes the thing we need to replace. Repentance is not just saying, oh, I feel bad or I feel sorry. Repentance, literally in Hebrew is from the Hebrew word shuv, which means to turn. So we need to turn from sin and turn to God. And we need to continually doing that in our mind.

So when we have that temptation, that desire, repentance means turning from that desire and to God. It's a literal shift. That's why I love Romans 12 too. Don't be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the rule. renewing of our mind. Sin begins here. Sin begins here and here, and we need to have that shift and change, and over the years, because it's been over 20 years for me of following the Lord and living faithful to him, that God has allowed that, it's not white-knuckling anymore, and it's not that big shift. I also think that we need to think of getting married that the litmus test or the decision

shouldn't be based on sexual desires. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be a part of that, but that shouldn't be our primary reason. And especially as I'm getting older, I mean, I'm 55 now. For couples that get older, sex is not the main thing. It's commitment.

Love is not equal to sex. Yeah. And love, now, of course, sex is a beautiful part of marriage, but it's not the core. It's not the main thing. And in many situations, that sexual desire does develop over time. I think it's more common in women that that can happen. I think sometimes women, they're first more romantically attracted, emotionally attracted to a man, and that sexual attractions can come later. And I think that that that can be for men as well. It's not as often, you know, usually for men, it's, it's much more physical

attraction, you know, so men and women are different, right? Amen. That's beautiful, that we are different. Radical. Radically different, yes. We have similarities, but we're also very, very different. Physically and even mentally and sexually as well in our sexuality are different, gloriously different. It's such a beautiful thing that God would bring two people together. Like, when God's says in Genesis 2, a helper fit for him, it's that word in Hebrew, connecto, is almost like a mirror. You look in the mirror? It's Alex Clark, right? But it's the opposite of that.

It's a reflection. It's similar. Look, but it's not exactly the same because it's, and that's that beautiful image. It's kind of like two hands, you know, left and right, that they're similar. And my right hand can do something. Left hand can do something, but together we can do so much more. And I think that's a beautiful kind of imagery of what that is. So when you said that the first time that you realized you were attracted to boys, you were a boy? Yes. So do you believe that people are born gay?

I believe that's a myth, that no one is born their sin. And just as no one is born an alcoholic. I mean, when you actually look at the studies, is there a genetic influence, it's actually quite, less than what people realize. It's not half. They believe it could be anywhere from, you know, 10% to like 25%. I actually think it's much less than that, that scientists are just guessing. So they think that genetics could play some role, and that shouldn't surprise us. That doesn't mean then that God made us that way. It just means that the fall has even distorted our genes. There's genetic diseases today. Well, where do that come from? That came from the fall. and which is why all creation groans to when Christ returns, and I can't wait for that day, you know, no more HIV, no more death, no more sickness, no more tears, no more sin.

And so people aren't born gay. We are born with a sin nature. Like I want all of our answers to be grounded in good theology. We're all born of the sin nature, as Paul calls it, the flesh. And so that means every human being, we're born with a sin nature. and we have a nature to sin, and then later we just choose to sin. And so the important thing that I think we are all born with a predisposition toward a certain sin. And so with you, when you look back, what do you think contributed to you having those feelings

as such a little kid? So I think there are influences. I think there can be influences that affect us just like pronoun. was an influence that awoken things in me that should never have been awoken. I was nine years old when I came across pornography at a friend's house. Was it gay pornography? It was regular. Yeah, regular. Yeah. Regular porn. You know, because in that, you see both male and female. And you know what's so sad, Alex, it was at a trusted family friends. So it wasn't like one of my friends. It was at someone that my parents knew for a time. It was a family friend. It was, these were magazines. So this is before internet. Now it is

just so, it's awful how easily accessible it is on the internet. And so it was kind of under the sink, the bathroom, whatever. And I found it, you know, being a nosy nine-year-old. And it awoken things in me that should not have been awoken at nine years old. And they, those images are seared into your mind. There's such a sad story of a little kid that was, I would say, six or seven years old. And a pastor, he was asking me how to help this kid. And he was just, and the parents had his devices locked down

and all he could do was play games. Well, even on the video games, they have ads. And these ads are adult ads. And he clicked on one and it was porn. And fortunately, this son, homeschool kid, told his mom and dad. I mean, amazing. Praise God that he said that. And so this pastor was helping this six or seven-year-old kid and the parents.

And this boy said something that just broke my heart. He said, pastor, I just want these images to go away. Isn't that devastating? Like, you can't take that away. So now when we're living, I mean, you're talking about seeing this, what was that? The 70s? It's 79, yeah.

Okay. So you're seeing this in the 70s now, like you're saying, with everybody having a device, it's so much more accessible. Kids are running into pornography earlier and earlier. So in your opinion, how early should parents be talking about seeing bad pictures to kids? Absolutely. I mean, well, first of all, let's start with the devices. Kids should not have devices, period.

Yeah. You know, I think there's even a movement. called wait till eight. Not eight years old, but eighth grade. Oh, well, still. Yeah, eighth grade, you know, that, they don't, kids shouldn't. I'm in the camp of not even a smartphone while you're living in my house. Absolutely.

When you start driving, you can have a dumb phone. At 100%. You can take photos on it. You can get maps. You can listen to music, listen to podcasts, I guess, and then text. And that is it. Yes. That's where I'm at.

I'm there with you. And, you know, go and touch some grass. Go and breathe some air, go and talk to kids, and play sports or whatever, even though I think sometimes we worship sports too much, though. I think that we need to be very, very, very seriously. This is not a pacifier. This is a gateway. And we need to be very careful with our kids because there is good that can come from devices, but there's also a lot of stuff that you can't undo. This is so key.

Our, and I love Alex how you talk about moms. You shouldn't think about being a mom, you know, until the moment you get pregnant. You know, you get the test and thinking through, you know, all these things about kids and vaccines and stuff like that. Man, that's the same thing. As much as we're protecting our kids, we need to be very concerned about what our kids are consuming and what our kids are filling their minds and in their hearts. So that means we need to be doing this earlier and earlier and earlier. Now, I know some parents are like, well, my kid is four. I'm not going to be talking to my kids about sex.

I agree. But we have to lay a foundation. We need to be teaching our kids. So I do not believe in the sex talk. We need to be laying a foundation that can lead to conversations. about sex and sexuality, not just have one sex talk. For example, we need to be teaching our kids good basic theology. A lot of times parents are like, well, I talk about Jesus.

I teach my kid, Jesus loves you. Great. But if that's the limit of what we teach our kids, we shouldn't be surprised when they come back when they're preteens and they're told by the world, love is love. You do you. So when we interpret Jesus loves you in light of love is love, what's wrong with love, what's wrong with two men loving each other, that distorts what that means. We have to dig deeper.

We have to be teaching our kids theology. And I know that's scary because most parents, young parents are like, I'm not a theologian. Actually, that's not true. Theology just means knowing God. Theology, knowledge of God. If you're a Christian, you know something about God. The gospel is actually theology. And, you know, we're sinners.

Jesus came to die for sinners. He was resurrected. He rose again and we will rise again. That's pure theology. We need to be teaching our kids. Not only the gospel, we need to be teaching things like God made you. He's our creator and he never makes mistakes. He made you in his image.

That's where we get our value and dignity. We don't have to find it. We don't have to find a purpose. He made you male and female. That's actually in the same verse on the image of God. So if the image of God is eternal, male and female is eternal. If the image of God is something you can't change, male and female is something that you can't change.

We need to be teaching simple, simple things. Like, that's something you can teach you a three-year-old. We need to be teaching kids, you're a sinner. Genesis 3 talks about Adam and Eve. What does that mean? When they sin, that affected the entire human race. So we're not like saying, well, they're sinners. Shame on them.

We're all sinners. And so therefore we need Christ. But what does that mean? So Adam and Eve sin, what does that mean? The fall affects things like our heart, our desires. So we have desires. God gave us the capacity to feel great, but those feelings can be affected by our sin.

So we can have sinful desires. The fall also affects our mind. So therefore, we can get confused. And this gets right to gender confusion. Like we need to call what it is. is. Instead of saying gender dysphoria, just call it gender confusion. Kids can understand that. They're confused. That doesn't mean we judge them. That doesn't mean we treat them bad. They need something that will renew their mind, which is Jesus, which is God's word. And then the fall also

affects our identity. So we can have all these false identities and wrong identities, and we need that. But the hope then comes, Jesus came to redeem and sanctify us. So those are things that we need to be teaching our little kids on And I know a lot of times people are like, man, I don't know how to do that. And so, you know, we talked about this. I have my books that I turn into a video series that's specifically for young parents to teach their little kids. We have one already done for teens. We have one also for preteens. And we're working on one.

I don't know if I'd mention this to you. Our team, we're working right now for one for little kids, four to eight-year-olds. Cool. So where do people find those? Yeah. It's at holy sexuality.com. So I have two websites. My website, my speaking in my videos, are our critical.

Christopher Yuan.com, but this video series is holy sexuality.com where they're animated. It's the first of its kind that's animated because kids, you know, they need to be engaged. Kids love animation. The teens has about a third that's animation. Preteens is two thirds. So the little kids that we're working on right now, it's going to be fully animated. It's so cool. It's so cute.

Keeping the kids engaged and teaching them really, really simple stuff, not, hey, this is sex, you know, how to have sex. No, it's teaching them, God made you special. And it's not a mistake. You can't change that, but that's good. And it's at holy sexual bylady.com animation, I'm sure you're familiar, is super expensive.

They charged like 24 frames per second. Yeah. Each video series was $1.2 million. Oh, my word. Yeah, and we had some large organizations that wanted to partner with us, but they wanted to charge like $400 per license. Well, that's not accessible for homeschool parents

or young parents or a single mom. So my parents and some other generous donors funded all three of them. And so we're not even recouping on everything. It's essentially people can get a two-year license for $20. Like that's not even a trip to Chick-fil-A, you know. Literally, that's amazing. Yeah, and because our vision was that every single household,

every single household, every parent needs to, you know, think this through. And I want to encourage because, you know, some people, maybe they're like, well, I'm not a parent yet, but I want to be. You need to be quipped now. And, you know, so I know even groups of parents that are going through this together so they can have this really solid biblical theological foundation to think about sexuality, instead of just saying, well, it's wrong, it's sin, true. But why? Why? What is God's vision for sexuality? God's vision for sexuality and relationships and marriage is beautiful. It is so awesome. And we don't talk about that enough. A lot of times we talk about what not to do.

If you're frustrated by rising insurance premiums, denied claims, or confusing medical bills, you may be wondering if there is another way. Crowd Health founder Andy is hosting a free live webinar explaining an alternative to traditional health insurance. This is what I use. Andy will walk you through how crowd health works, what members contribute each month, and how the community helps fund eligible medical expenses. He'll explain why health care prices are so often inflated, how cash prices can be dramatically lower, and how crowd health's team negotiates medical bills for you. You'll also hear real member stories involving major medical events and bills in the hundreds of thousands of dollars and how crowd health covered it. Andy is going to explain

who crowd health is right for and who actually may be better served by traditional insurance and what to consider before switching. There's also a live Q&A, so bring your questions. It's completely free. register at joincrowdealth.com slash LP slash Alex. That's join crowdhealth.com slash LP slash Alex. Apparently, one of the newer Gen Z insults is calling something polyester, as in cheap, low quality, tacky. Do you understand what has happened here? Even Gen Z has discovered natural fibers. The generation that brought us TikTok dances and an emotional support water bottle,

the size of a toddler, has looked at polyester and said, you know what? Absolutely not. Now, millennials, we've got to evolve, okay? I'm done wrapping my body in plastic whenever there's a natural fiber alternative, especially with the basics touching my skin all day. And that's why I love Q for Quinn. They make GOTS certified organic cotton bras, underwear, socks, and essentials without PFAS or BPAs. And they recently launched active wear, including incredibly soft, supportive sports bras, even options for larger cup sizes. The founder, Melita, started Q for Quinn eight years ago after struggling to find organic cotton socks for her son with eczema. And now she's helping basically all of us replace the synthetic basics that we've been wearing since 2007. I know that you are still wearing Victoria's Secret underwear from 2009. I know that you are. Throw it out. Use code Alex for 10% off your non-toxic basics at Q for Quinn. Again, Q4quin.com code Alex. Q for Quinn.com code Alex for 10% off because getting called polyester by a 19 year old should be the wake-up call that finally changes this country. So let's talk about what we should do in a couple different scenarios.

Your 15-year-old comes out to you and says, mom, dad, I'm gay. I felt like this for my entire life. What is the first thing that parents should say? As a Christian family. Yes. I would say, thank you for telling me, I love you, no matter what. I would be really careful. Do not follow that up with, but a lot of parents do that.

They will say, I love you, but. The problem with that but is that in that kid's mind, it erases everything before. You just erased everything that you said and all they hear is what comes after. I would say, because most likely parents are freaking out inside. They're like, oh my goodness, this is the worst thing that, you know, could have ever happened. Thank you so much. And the reason why we say thank you is because very likely you might be the last person to know.

That's, I hear this all the time. parents are often the last to know why because kids are afraid to tell parents why because they think the parents are going to reject them kick them out whatever thank you for telling me i love you no matter what tell me more tell me what this means and just listen because they probably aren't even ready to talk but you want them to talk more i would then ask how does your faith fit into all of this. How do you understand what you're sharing with me in light of your faith? So let's say, because I'm just imagining,

yes. This kid says, because they grew up in a Christian home, and this kid says, well, yeah, I've been thinking a lot about that. And I just feel like God made me, you know, he doesn't make mistakes. And so I feel like I can be a Christian and also be gay. So it depends. I would say for most parents, they might not be ready to address all that. They probably need to talk to their pastor.

I mean, I have all these answers that I could give. But if they're not, let's just say they don't know what to say. It's okay to say, I just want you for this conversation to know, I love you no matter what, because God loves us no matter what, even when we are sinners. Because that's important. Because loves you no matter what makes it seem like you can do whatever you want. But God loves us no matter what, even when we rebel, even when we're sinners. But I just want you to know I love you no matter what.

And let's talk about this. You know, let's talk again tomorrow. And so then that's when the parents should bring, you know, go to a pastor and kind of have wife's counsel on how to handle the rest. Yes. So it's okay. You don't have to have all the answers at that moment. But the main thing you want your kid to know is I love you no matter what. You can say, I hate you.

You can say I don't believe in God. you can, you know, say even, you know, all this, but I'm going to love you no matter what because God loves us no matter what. Yeah. And I think that's the main thing. Now, to answer that, if parents have some, they're kind of prepared, I would tell them, we're all born in sin that does not make it right. I think that's really important.

So just because, you know, you think you're born a certain way, Jesus says you must be born again. You might think you're born an alcoholic. You must be born again. You might think you're born a liar or a cheater. You know, I can't help it. You know, you must be born again. I think that's the heart of the gospel. Yeah.

The old is gone, the new is come, and Christ, you're a new creation. Which is why, like, I never, when I came to faith out of prison, I entered prison, dead in my sin. I walked out of prison alive in Christ, which is also why I was. walked in as Chris and I left as Christopher. Christopher in Greek means Christ bearer. I bear the name of Christ. My mom gave me this name before she was a Christian, before I was a Christian. Isn't that amazing? Christ bear. I'm not going to go by Chris because that takes Christ out of my name. I'm Christopher, Christ bear. And when I came out, I was like, I'm not gay.

Now, I'm not going to walk around and say, I'm straight. That doesn't mean that I couldn't have opposite such attractions, but that just means that's not my identity. My desires, whether I have them or not, whether I have certain desires, both or none, is not who I am. My desires are something that can change. I mean, our desires change. Sometimes they're more fixed, but that's not my focus.

My focus is always on Christ. And I do not identify as a gay man, as a gay Christian. That's my dead man. And we need to identify with life and not death. We shouldn't cling to our old Adam. We need to cling to Christ. Yeah. Okay.

So another scenario, you're a believer, your LGBTQ nephew or a coworker invites you to their wedding. Should you go? Is it okay to go if you're like to go? like, well, I'm a believer. I love you. I don't condone the sin, but I'm going to go because I love you. Is that okay? Or we shouldn't go? So we need to look to scripture. In scripture, we find marriage is a enormous part of the Bible. Genesis, the Bible begins with a marriage in Genesis 2. The Bible ends with a marriage in Revelation 19, the wedding supper of the lamb. And we also have Christ's first miracle, the wedding at Cana. And then in the Old Testament, we have the image of Jehovah God. And

God as being a faithful husband and Israel being the rebellious harlot. In the New Testament, we have Christ as the bridegroom, and the bride of Christ is as the church. And so we see that marriage and weddings is throughout scripture. And then Ephesians 5, where Paul talks about wedding is the mystery of Christ in the church. So God does not trivialize marriage, and neither should we. So we need to realize that in these ceremonies, that's not a wedding in God's eyes. It can be a civil thing that maybe is considered by the state, but just because the state recognizes it doesn't mean that God does.

We also need to think through that, so this is not a wedding in God's eyes, what does it mean when we're present? Marriage is a covenant. It's not a right. A personal right means that's something that everyone, everyone has the right to, I want to get married. I'm not only open, I'm, I want to get married biblically. If it was a right, where's my right?

Marriage isn't a right, it's a covenant. A covenant between two people. And when we realize, and it's not just a covenant between two people, it's a covenant before God. A covenant can't be made without a witness. God is the one that is the main witness, but when we do it as a ceremony, there's other people there. What's the purpose of people to be there at the wedding? I think we oversimplify it when we think about people present at the wedding as simply celebrating with us. You know, we talk about thank you for coming, sharing this special day with us.

That's not the purpose of them being at the biblical purpose. This is a covenant making. When a covenant is made, we are with. witnesses. And what does that mean when we are witnesses? That means we are bound now to help them hold fast to that covenant that they made before God. So when I'm at my friend's wedding, when I'm standing up as his best man, I now have a responsibility to help this couple to fight for their marriage. We have to fight for marriages today. Well, I can't fight for something that God doesn't bless. So my presence would be saying the opposite of what it is. It's not something that, it's not a

covenant that God is going to bless. It's not a covenant that can help them make. So we shouldn't then, in light of that understanding of our presence there, be present at that ceremony. Okay. Last question. To a parent listening whose child has completely rejected God and they are heartbroken. broken. What do you think your mom's advice would be to that parent? So many times when parents have prodigals, which I mean, all parents have prodigals. We're all prodigals, right? But when there's a prodigal that is just really rebellious, even in their adult years and continuing to rebellious, Christian moms often blame themselves. God, what did I do wrong? And a reminder for us that I want to tell these parents, these moms, crying themselves to sleep, it's not your fault.

Perfect parenting doesn't guarantee perfect children. And Christian parents don't guarantee a saved child either. A saved child either. Yeah. You know, and my mom teaches parents, you know, that that doesn't guarantee. Look at Adam and Eve. They had a perfect father. They had a perfect environment.

They still rebelled. Yeah. And what my mom and my parents and I, we often tell Christian parents, the job of a Christian parent is not to produce godly children. We want that. We pray for that. But it's not your job because you can't do that. Right. Because if you could, you'd be God and we're not God.

But the job of Christian parent is not to produce godly children. It's simply to be a godly parent. Be godly. You pray your heart out that your children would follow Jesus and then let God be God. God. Only God saves. What is your social media? Christopher Yuan, and I'm on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. TikTok is Dr. Christopher Yuan. YouTube, Christopher Yuan as well, and then just my website, Christopher Yuan.com and Holysexuality.com as

well. And, you know, please, if you're listening and watching, check out the video series that we're really hoping to get out so that parents can have this true foundation of truly inoculating with something good, inoculating with God's word to prepare those conversations later in life for your kids to understand sexuality.

And the four to eight year old isn't done yet, but you can go to our website and you can put in your name to be on the wait list. And it's holysexuality.com. Your book is the same name. My book is

holy sexuality and the gospel. I ask every guest this at the end of the episode if you could offer one remedy to heal a sick culture It could be physically, emotionally, or spiritually. What would that remedy be? I would look at that spiritual remedy because I think that spiritual remedy is something that affects our emotions and our bodies.

And first of all, what is that sickness? And that sickness is our sin. I knew that my sin affected me, ended up with me having HIV indirectly, affected mentally. But the remedy is Jesus Christ. sin is a problem. Jesus Christ is the answer. And I know many of your followers know Jesus, but if you don't, there's nothing more important than knowing Jesus. You know, my father was a big part of our family, our ministry, and now he's with the Lord. And he came to faith much later in life. It was also a radical transformation. And unfortunately, a few years ago,

you know, he fell, hit his head. He, they could. to stop the internal bleeding and it was just really, really unexpected. But when we were about to leave, you know, his heart was failing, his brain function was gone. My mom told me that we're going to tell everyone that my dad, Dr. Leon Yuan Yuan, is not dead. He is now more alive than he ever was before. and our remedy of all things, it is spiritual, but that spiritual affects us emotionally and physically, needs to be Jesus Christ. He is our perfect and loving healer. It is such an honor to know you and to have you on the show.

Thank you, Christopher, for coming on. Thanks for having me on, Alex. Our culture increasingly tells us that authenticity means looking inside ourselves, discovering our deepest desires, and then expressing them. Christianity makes an almost defensively different claim that some of our deepest desire shouldn't be obeyed and that real freedom means sometimes saying no to ourselves. Christopher believes that's not a special rule Christianity created for gay people. It's the invitation that Jesus gives to everyone. This was a pretty spicy interview.

I'd love to hear if you think I should do more like this where someone shares their story. Tell us in a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. New episodes come out every Monday and Thursday at 6 p.m. Pacific. 9 p.m. Eastern. I'm Alex Clark, and this is Culture Apothecary.