Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - “How To Experience Heaven In Your Bedroom." - with Christian Sexpert Francie Winslow

Episode Date: March 11, 2022

Get ready for all the sex advice we SHOULD be equipping young women with: How can Christian women shed shame about sex and embrace it as a God-given gift for marriage? What ripple effects can an amazing sex life have on your family and even society? What to do if you’re experiencing trouble having an orgasm? What are some tips for becoming a more sensual woman?Host of Heaven In Your Home podcast, Francie Winslow, walks us through her best practices on how to have an amazing married sex life.C...

heads up, this episode of The Spillover has an adult content warning. There's a reason why Call Her Daddy is one of the biggest podcasts in the world. People, well, especially women, want all the tea on how to have the best sex life. The thing is, for Christian women, Call Her Daddy might give good technical advice, like touch here, say this to him, etc. But Alex Cooper's style is to make the whole thing almost porny. Obviously, she's not advocating for waiting until marriage to have your best sex life, and there's a whole lot of other terrible degrading advice she gives, like cheat on him and you're just a whole.

I know that's really cringy and graphic, but that's the vulgar style to her podcast. So if you're a married Christian woman and you're wanting to elevate your intimate relationship with your husband, but you aren't looking for a podcast that graphic, where do you turn? The church rarely ever talks about this subject, and if they do, there aren't really any details on what or how to do something. That's where today's guest comes in. She's a married Christian mother of six kids, and somehow she and her husband are not only having lots of sex,

they're having great sex, holy sex. It's spiritual and wonderful and restorative. Now, how do I know this? Because she talks about it on her Christian sex podcast, Heaven in Your Home. If that sounds familiar, it's because Alexa Pennevega mentioned that she loves this show while she was on episode 19 of the spillover. And today's guest even opens and closes each episode in prayer. How awesome is that?

It's the complete opposite experience of any other sex podcast out there. I am so excited that this woman agreed to come on and tackle a subject that can be really awkward and difficult to have, especially from a woman's perspective. Maybe you're thinking, am I having great sex in my marriage? Am I pleasing my husband? Is he pleasing me? Is having an orgasm the most important point of sex? Should your spouse say yes to sex even if they aren't in the mood?

How do we make time for sex when we're also parents and more? Get ready to experience heaven in your bedroom with Christian sexpert, as I like to call her. Francie Winslow on The Spillover. Francie, I feel like your podcast is the Christian call her daddy. Has anyone ever told you that before? I've never heard that before. You know what I'm talking about, though. I mean, that's totally not a Christian podcast, but she gives like sex advice for young women.

And I feel like you're doing that. But it's in this non-vulgar, you know, it's in a holy way. It's actually helpful for young women. It's not degrading to young women. And, you know, married women, especially, obviously, is who I'm talking about. But I just have been so touched by your podcast. And I'm so excited about it. And just a disclaimer.

not married yet myself, but I love your podcast. I find it encouraging. I find it educational, just thinking about, you know, once I am married, do you think it's a good idea for young Christian, single women to listen to your podcast, even if they're not married yet? You know, I do actually, because I have a lot of girls reach out to me and say, I'm not married yet, but I don't have anybody have these conversations with. And people at my church are not necessarily talking about it. and my mom may not have talked to me much about it. And so, and I think girls are getting married later. It's not like, you know, they're all 18 years old.

They're in their 20s and they want to be prepared in a whole integrated way and to really know what God's best can look like and what the theology of a great sex life is like so that they can kind of get on board before the time so that when they do get married, they're able to fully jump into a real integrated. and whole perspective on sexuality. I want to start at the beginning of your journey kind of into this realm of really ministering to young women when it comes to sex and love and what a healthy relationship is supposed to be like.

You casually mentioned this on the About Me page of your show and you talk about you went to a brothel in Thailand and bought two girls for a night out, took them to dinner and then told them about real love. Yeah. I was 18. I took a gap year in between high school and college because I knew I should go to college, but I just really didn't have a grid for what I wanted to study. And my parents were amazing. They're so supportive. And so that was part of my ministry year. We did get to take that trip. And I sat in brothels. And it was fascinating on that end of my journey because I wasn't married yet.

And I was seeing men walk by a lot of American men. You know, I remember I'm from North Carolina. I saw a guy with a Duke T-shirt. And it just hit home. I'm like, why is a man with the Duke University T-shirt walking into a brothel in Chi-Mai? And it just broke my heart for the women. It also broke my heart for the men and the families that might have been behind those men. And so it did start my journey of feeling like, God, what do you have to say to these women? And also to me, because I'm asking questions about the meaning of sexuality and where is the redemption of God in this story? Because it's easy to feel the brokenness.

But that was a big beginning journey. Part of my journey was sitting with those girls and really aching to know more of God's heart for it. So tell me about that process. I mean, if you are 18 yourself walking into a brothel in a foreign country, walk me through that process. You walk in, were you scared that these men in there that were running the brothel were going to say, okay, yeah, we're not selling you a girl. You're clearly like, you're old enough or, you know, you're young enough that we'd have you in here. Like what was the conversation that took place?

How did you get the girls out? I should have been scared. I should have been, but we were actually working with a ministry that was already in place there that built relationship with the girls in order to educate them. Some of them had been traffic there and some of them were there by choice. And so we were joining in with something that was already happening. And my heart has been for women and women walking in wholeness and in their true identity for a long time.

And so to be there and to be able to come alongside these women that this ministry had been building relationship with. And we did have the idea. Let's just spend some extra time with these girls. If we buy them tonight, that's one less night. They'll be with some men. And so we did buy them. We took them to get pedicures. We took them to McDonald's. And we just kind of hung out with them. And yeah, I probably should have been a little bit scared. But I think I was more amazed at what God was doing. And the redemptive story that was playing out right in front of my eyes and the gift of being able to to witness it. I was a very small part of what God is already doing there. What kinds of things were you telling those girls and then how did they respond?

Well, their English was pretty broken. And so we were telling them the very basics that God loves you and calls you beautiful and that you have value no matter what anybody else says and that there is another way to live and find love. And we were kind of making a bridge to the ministry that is open to them if they wanted to leave, was ready to rehabilitate them and give them sanctuary. But I do remember we're giving them pedicure. We took them to a pedicure spa. And I remember, honestly, they asked us to sing a Jesus song. And this is, I started singing over them, turn your eyes upon Jesus. And I still, I sing that over my kids today. And I always think back on that. And I remember like tears were flowing down my face because I thought, if we could just turn

our eyes on Jesus, no matter how broken we are, no matter where we are on the journey. If we look full in his wonderful face, the things of the earth will grow strangely dim. And so it was like preaching the gospel back to myself as I was sharing it with them. Did you ever find out what happened to those girls? Not those specific girls. I'm trusting and praying that the ministry kept following up with them and kept inviting them into freedom. So how soon after this process at 18 years old, this mission trip that you went on, did you actually start and begin heaven in your home, your podcast?

Well, a lot of life happened between then. I did get married really young. So two years later, I was married. And that note's pretty unusual. I was married at 20. And I actually, I wasn't really looking for a relationship. I had found so much calling in God and such an adventure of following God. I was just like, I'm not interested in a guy. But we met in a church. And we were really running on mission together. He was also really missions minded. And it just really aligned and within our community. it was just really clear like God has you guys for each other. So we got married really young, but it was right within getting married that I realized, hang on, I can minister the idea of wholeness and freedom and love to women in theory. But when I have to walk it out in a sexual relationship with my husband, whoa, I have a lot of work to do. And so the work I'm doing and sharing on Heaven in Your Home podcast actually began on what we call our pink inner healing couch. If you listen to the early part of my podcast, the first couple episodes, I talk about the pink inner healing couch because I realized that even though I had grown up in the church and knew all the right things, I had so much sexual brokenness because I knew don't do it, don't do it, don't do it. That was the rule.

That was the idea. But I didn't know how to think about doing it in a way that was lifegiving and not filled with shame. And so it was like my ministry met my real life. And then it was a lot of undoing, a lot of realizing I was leaving a bunch of lies. working it out with my mentors, really leaning into my husband Wyatt and telling him about places I felt ashamed and us working it out, leaning into God together and having a lot of sex. Honestly, our first year of marriage, we ended up leaning in a lot. And that was part of our healing journey was God was healing us with his good gift of married sex in all the places

that I had brought a lot of shame into my marriage. And so then you'd say, okay, well, now I want to start this podcast talking about our sex life. And of course, when I say talking about your sex life, you're not like you're giving detail, but you're not, you're not vulgar or whatever. I don't know how to explain it. I mean, you have to listen to it. But you do give, you give tips and tricks and say like, here, this is what's really worked for my husband and I. I think you should try this, et cetera. And so when you brought this up to your husband, you're like, hey, honey, I want to have, I want to talk about, you know, our sex life and how to help other women with their married sex lives. How did your husband react? Oh my gosh. Well, he was.

the one who's pushed me to do it the whole time. He's like, you've got to talk to women about this. And I said at the beginning, I will never talk about sex in public because I grew up in the South and it is really taboo, very much of a prude thought, oh, it just makes me blush. I still struggle sometimes to really put myself out there because I am still undoing loads of wrong beliefs about my body and how powerful and good and holy all of it is. And so I am pretty open about the fact that I'm on a journey and I'm on a healing journey. And we've been married almost 17 years. And guess what?

I'm still getting healed. And that's okay because it's like the more we lean into God's goodness, the more we experience goodness and the more we realize I kind of needs more healing. That's okay. And he gives it. And so it's a really sweet gift. But early in our married years, we were finding a lot of healing through our sex life and through the power of intimacy, the supernatural power of sex that was God's good,

garden dream in the beginning. and he would say, wow, have you talked to your friends about this? And I say, no, I will never talk to my friends about it. And then I started talking my friends about it. And then eventually he's like, you should speak about this. And it ended up kind of word got out. And I started speaking about it in public at MOPS groups, which is mothers of preschoolers. It's an international mom's ministry, Bible studies, women's conferences. And then the podcast came after that when I realized I didn't really want to travel a lot to speak. I wanted to be home with my people and really be in my home. And so the podcast is just a great outlet because I can do it right from my closet and not have to leave home.

What is God's design for our sex lives in the purpose? Is it just to procreate or should we be experiencing pleasure? Oh, yeah. So all of the above, it is for sure procreation and it is for sure pleasure. And it is a celebration really of oneness. Because when we see in the beginning, I love that when Jesus, was asked about marriage and he was kind of pushed in Matthew like well what about divorce and the Pharisees were trying to corner him he said no no no it wasn't this messed up in the beginning in the

beginning and he points back to the garden and so when I wonder about the purpose of sexuality and the purpose of sex and the purpose of even our bodies and marriage I look back to God's original design and I call it God's garden dream because that's what it was he had this amazing dream of a man and a woman who fit together like puzzle pieces and not only was it functional, like procreate, it was pleasurable. And I look at God's design and I look at how he made our bodies. And why would he give a woman 8,000 nerve endings on her clitoris? And a man, 4,000, by the way, women have twice as many possibilities for pleasure. Why would he do that if he wasn't intending humans to celebrate and enjoy and have this sense of bliss together? That was God's

good idea. And I love that because it kind of gets overlooked in religious circles. We just think, oh, it's about procreation. But it was God's design. And when we look at our bodies, we can realize he's the one who made it. So there's a lot to it. Do you think that in marriage, it's okay to use condoms and stuff? Or do you think you always need to be open to the idea of getting pregnant once you're married? So that is a very personal conversation. I'm very willing to share my story. I don't think I would ever tell somebody this is what you should do or shouldn't do on that topic because everybody's on a journey. I was on birth control when we first got married and quickly realized that it wasn't treating my body well and it was actually creating a lot of pain. And then it also occurred to me as

I was in a college class on bioethics in the law that the pill can also be abort efficient to a degree. And so that was news to me as well. And so my husband and I were like, wow, we're not so sure about this, but if there's any truths to this, we want to respond. And so we started doing natural family planning. We've done condoms and we've done all sorts of approaches, but we have six kids now. Yeah. So that tells you a bit of how that went. And then for health reasons, we ended up going for a vasectomy. So that's just really honest. And the truth is we cried out to God in every stage of God, we want to honor you. And we're broken. You know, it's not, we're not perfect. We don't have this, like ideal that we can always meet. I think to be open to life in any stage at one point we were

open to life through adoption. So we have one kiddo who was added to our crew through adoption. I think open to life, we have people who've lived with us. So open to life can look like a lot of things for a married couple. But I do think it's a place that needs to be a place where you invite God into it. And we don't control and try to dominate that conversation. But we say, God, how can we follow you faithfully in this? Absolutely. I want to talk about the stuff that it can be really hard for other women to ask about. And sometimes I feel like that's what my place is hosting this podcast is asking guests like you with just amazing wisdom and knowledge on different topics. The stuff that other, I call them cute servatives, the girls that listen to my show, other cute servants want to ask so bad, but just have no mentors or people to ask.

So, you know, that really heartbreaking realization of, okay, either I'm waiting for marriage and I have no idea what I'm, you know, what I'm doing. or I'm about to be married and I'm just so scared when it comes to sex and making sure that it's pleasurable or I've been married for a long time and I've still never had an orgasm. What is your advice for married women who are having trouble having an orgasm? Okay. So for both the single woman and the married woman, the first foundational thing is that your body is good. That is the foundational thing for you to come to grips with this reality.

that God made your body head to toe, all of it, and whether you're single and you have sexual energy and desire, you want to get married, you want to be prepared, knowing ahead of time, my body is good. And when you are married and you're struggling, some of the most profound blocks to pleasure have to do with our mindset and shame that we're carrying. And so some of the most profound orgasmic work that I've done actually has been in my prayer closet. And I know that sounds a little crazy, but it's because I invited God into my beliefs about my body and into my beliefs about my identity and into my beliefs about who he made me to be and how he made me and what he thinks of my body and that it's good. And there's not one body part on me that he's ashamed of.

There's not one part of my genitals that he wants to turn his head away from because he made it. And it's beautiful and it's powerful and it's good. And not only is it for procreation and pleasure, but it is for bonding a husband and a wife together in such powerful unity that fruitfulness spills out of their marriage. Because all throughout the Bible, fruitfulness, which can be children, but it can also be creativity and breakthroughs and ministry ideas or business ideas or ability to serve, all of that can come through unity. And so sex is so multifaceted.

I would just say if we obsess about the pleasure, I want it to look like this, be like this, I would take a step back and just say, God, thank you for my body that you may me to receive pleasure and I would go slowly and learn your body with your husband. If you're married, say, I want to learn my body better because I think that was another barrier for me is I had so much shame from the don't do it, don't do it, don't do it, purity culture that I had never thought about my body. I had never felt that it was good. And even when I got married, it was more of the mindset of sex as a man's need and kind

of more of my job to fulfill it. And so a woman being pleasured wasn't something that I was taught or mentored in. And so that's something that Waya and I have spent years working through in a sweet way of him learning my body, of me learning my body and realizing that we have a whole lifetime to journey in that together. But that it's something we get to explore together and embrace as really good. I have a random question for you. Did your husband also grow up in the church? Yeah. Did he experience the same type of stigma about sex that you did as a woman growing up with purity culture or no?

No. Wow. It's very interesting. I think girls take it on in a really heavy way because we don't want to break our brother stumble, you know, that comment. We're either our body, our curves are too much. And so you have to cover it up or and then you look in the world and like, well, she's beautiful and she doesn't have much on. And so you're trying to figure out how do I be beautiful, but cover me up because what I am is probably dangerous or not so good for the brothers or for the men in the church. And so it's a really tricky thing, I think mentally for women to overcome this reality that I can be naked and unashamed and not perverted and not pornographic, but pure and lovely and wonderful and confident and exciting and engaged. And so I think that has been more of my journey is how to shed the kind of prudish mentality and not feel like I needed to go anywhere near a pornographic mentality, but how to be me and beautiful and naked. And I don't think that the guys struggle with that as much.

I agree. I think you're right. I think there's a whole separate thing going on with women in the church, you know, and being so damaged as a millennial. I'm a young millennial, and I just know how damaging purity culture was. And I'm curious if you believe should there be compromises if you or your husband prefers something sexually that the other spouse doesn't enjoy doing? I think the rule is love and the rule is honor. And I think if there's something that a spouse wants

that another one is not comfortable with, that's called mutual submission. And the spouse who has the desire submits to that one who's not comfortable. And I think the more that happens, the more the spouse who's uncomfortable for whatever reason can come out and feel safe. And the more there's safety and trust and proven character, the more confidence there can be. And I can say that from personal experience. I was definitely, I remember early in our marriage, we were trying to talk about our sex life. And I felt like it was a vice grip on my mouth. I just could not say words like orgasm. I couldn't articulate desire. But my husband was patient and never pressured me. And with time and with commitment, which is the beauty of marriage, I have begun to feel safer and more confident over

the years and love being a great lover because my husband was patient and kind and gentle. And left me through it and has really left me into my healing because of my body shame that I had struggled with. He didn't force me. He didn't shame me about it. He just waited and loved me and met me where I was. How do you go from that, though, being really uncomfortable or embarrassed to even say the word orgasm to getting to the point where you're like, it's very easy for you and stuff to talk about those things with your husband? I mean, were you doing sex therapy? Were there special books that you were reading? How did you figure that out? I want to learn more about sex. I want to get more comfortable with my sexuality as a Christian married woman and getting there. Yeah, great question. We've not seen a specific sex therapist, although I think that would be great. We've seen different

counselors. We have read books constantly in our marriage. We've read just about every marriage book there is almost, not quite. We've read a lot of sex books. And I think we allow the marriage books and the sex books to be our language for us. Are they Christian sex books though, or just they are not necessarily Christian. You just implemented them into a Christian marriage. Both. Okay. I am really cautious about non-Christian sex books just because they're, they can be pornographic

and they can be really kinky. And so we avoid those, but there are some non-Christian books that are just straight up biology and anatomy and are really helpful to be like, oh, that's down there. Wow. Okay. Interesting. And they might give tips and techniques, but there's a lot of Christian books that are really awesome.

I could give you a book list after this. but Doug Rosenau has great ones. Joyce Pinner and her husband have great ones. Gary Thomas just came out with a great one called Married Sex. I would say we spent a lot of our early date nights going back in the days where Borders and Barnes & Noble were a place and a thing you would go to. Yep. R.

I go to get a sex book. And I would put another book behind it because I was so embarrassed. I didn't want anybody to see that I was actually reading a sex book. We had like no money. And so we would just go read and then we would go home and try it. And we would talk on the drive home from the bookstore to our house about what we had read. And it was all I could do to like say what I read. But those are my baby steps.

So I think the idea is just start where you are and know there's no shame and just say, I'm going to take one baby step towards knowing this is good and that there's more for me. And I think that could even just be like a mantra. This is good. There's more for me. And the more trust there is, the more freedom you're going to have to be free and to grow in that. I love this too. Your story is so relatable. It's not like you were always just this sex expert, you know, like you grew into that. You know, you learned. You weren't always that way. And so I think that's going to give so many women hope. I am curious if you think it's biblical for the wife to initiate sex. Oh, yeah. Svong of Solomon is a really funny book in the middle of the Bible. It is beautiful and explicit. And the woman is super erotic. And she is very verbal with what she wants.

what she likes, what she sees. It's very sensual. They use their five senses. And that's one key and way for women to become more in touch with their bodies and more integrated is to use the five senses. What do you smell? What do you see? What do you taste?

What do you hear? And really engage your whole body. But I think it's been one of my most powerful gifts and tools as a wife is the power of initiation because sex is for the high moments and the good times. But there's been a lot of low moments. I mean, we have been through valleys. and sexual intimacy has been an incredible gift of unity and healing in our low moments. And sometimes I've been the most frequent initiator because I have been pursuing my husband

when he's feeling discouraged, when he's feeling down, or when I'm so fried from being exhausted and overwhelmed as a mom, he's like, let me pursue you. And so it is a give and take and it is a beautiful celebration of mutual love. This is one of the most eye-opening conversations I've heard you had on your podcast, having in your home, is you. You talk about if your husband has had a bad day or he's sad or he's not being talkative, he's not being emotionally intimate, that you should pursue sex with him, even if he's tired or whatever and try to have sex and that somehow that will help things?

I am shocked by this. So explain that. Well, I think we have this false notion that sex follows like candlelight and the best music and the best dinner and a glass of wine and that everything has to be just right for us to feel close to be able to have sex. And I think that that is like probably a lie for romantic comedies or something. I don't know where we get that because the truth is is that the key ingredient is leaning into each other. Lean in. Lean in. Lean in. That's what we say all the time when we're tempted to lean out because he is too tired or not talking enough. My choice as a wife is that I say,

now I'm going to show up and I'm going to lean in because he needs me right now. And this is almost like my ministry as a wife to pull his heart out because a man's heart and his genitals are really closely connected. And so when I love him sexually, he feels loved emotionally. This is so interesting. Yeah. Because I would think that, you know, with women anyway, if I'm saying, you know, I'm tired or I just, I just want to talk or I just want to have a conversation, I would think that the opposite advice given to a man was like, well, you should have sex with her then, for sure. But you're saying for men, it's different. And that is, that should kind of be the response for the wife.

Yeah, I mean, I don't want to should on anybody. I just say, get to know your spouse, get to know your husband, and find what makes them feel loved. But I think the lie is that sex needs to be this romantic experience. Sex is a powerful on-ramp to intimacy and connection. And so when we have sex, we got six little kids. We are straight up exhausted, Alex, like exhausted. And I can't tell you how many times we have shut the bedroom door at the end of

the night. Finally, they're all like somewhat settled and we're like, let's connect because we found it to be so incredibly powerful, not only pleasurable, but powerful for our oneness so that we can do life in a heaven on earth type of way because sexual unity and oneness breaks forth this sense of shalom, the sense of everything is okay, everything is right. And that was one of God's garden gifts is that sex is not just about orgasm. It's not just about pleasure. It is about. It is about inviting this reality that God said sex is a small picture of his love, this self-giving love that is selfless, that gives and receives and submits you together in a covenant of forever love. And the more we do that and come back to that, the stronger our bond is, the better parents

we are, the more successful we are at our work, the more hope we have going into hard days because we are one. And so I would say the pleasure is crazy. I have amazing orgasms. My husband has learned my body and we've leaned in together, but the power of it is on the good times and the bad times. So that's why I encourage you, lean in, fight for connection, because that is what marriage is about is oneness. And the things of the world, the enemies of our souls and our families are always pulling us apart. One, you bring division. And we, when we're divided, we are conquered. And so intimacy, spiritual intimacy, emotional intimacy, physical intimacy is all so powerful. but physical intimacy is uniquely powerful because of how we are embodied people.

Our souls are encased in our bodies. And what our bodies do has profound implications on our entire experience of life. What is your advice for couples that find themselves at complete opposite ends on sexual drive? I mean, the wife has extreme, you know, high sexual drive. The husband is low or opposite. Yeah. Well, I understand that. And I have over the years changed my mind a little bit on my beliefs about drive.

I don't think they're stagnant because from my experience, I've seen there are seasons where I'm high and he's low or the opposite. Wow. And a lot of that is circumstantial. It has the level of sleep you're getting. It has the level of health you have in other areas. If there's a sickness or if there's stress, all of that can affect your drive. So what I say to that is continually be open to each other and draw each other out.

When I feel low, he's like, let me give you a. sensual massage. Let me draw you out because we were made to be one. Instead of letting our drives polarize us, whoever has the higher drive initiates, whoever has the higher energy leans in because what we establish is that we both want connection. We both want this unified marriage. And so it becomes less about the drive and more about unity. Conservatives talk a lot about the propaganda that saturates Hollywood. There is tons of messaging in the content we consume that stereotypes conservatives paints us in a negative way or even trashes America and the values this country was founded on as a whole.

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A lot of women, some women have a high drive, like you're just sitting in your kitchen and you're like, whoa, baby, I'm really wanting you. A lot of women are called sexual responsive tendencies, which means you don't really feel anything, but once you get going, you get warmed up. And I, this sounds a little simplistic and maybe a little crude, but I feel like it's a lot like going to the gym. You don't ever really feel like going to the gym, but you always are happy once you've gone. And so in those times of not really feeling like it, I'm like, leave it or take it. It's about so much more than what I feel. It's about the power of unity in our marriage and a celebration of our connection and loving each other well and cementing our oneness. I always am happy afterwards because whether or not I have a massive orgasm or not, if it's just a quickie, it is sowing seeds into our marriage.

I liken it to like consistently sow seeds of unity, seeds of love, seeds of tenderness. and you reap something really beautiful. Could you talk about using all five senses during intimacy and how that can heighten pleasure? Yeah. So I think one of the challenges that women have is that we are super busy, super tired, and be multitask. And so we could be with our husband and really centered on that moment and they'll of a sudden be like, I think there's a pile of laundry over here. I think I hear child screaming.

Or did you just hear that discipline? Just like pull into our driveway and a woman's brain is going. And so using all five. senses helps to connect the whole body, helps to bring her into the moment. And it also, I found because I'm more of the woman that generally has a lower sex drive and is generally happy meeting everybody's needs, it helps me get into my body and be more responsive and have a higher drive when I pay attention to my five senses. So even when I'm not in a moment with my husband, if I am in a bath or even washing my face smelling, my face washing me, like, okay, I'm going to

integrate into my senses. I'm going to feel how smooth this feels. I'm going to smell. I'm going to smell it. I'm going to enjoy the feeling of my sweater. It's making me more of a sensuous person in non-sexual moments so that when he does come close and he kisses my neck, I'm really aware of my five senses. And I can feel that. I can be more responsive. And I can have more energy because at some point in life, you realize like life is going to suck all the energy out of you unless you know how to refill your tank. And so being more aware of your five senses is one way to refill your sexual energy in the middle of the normal. daily grind, whether you're homeschooling or whether you're at work or whether you're in the carpool

or in traffic, it's a way to be integrated into your body so that your body can be more of a kind of front and center experience as you're relating to your husband. I like how you're talking about just noticing everyday type of things to become a more sensual woman in general. And I like that you discuss this on your podcast as well because I feel like for women, sometimes we just feel like I'm not a sexy person. Like I'm not a sexy person. Like I'm not sexual type of woman. But you are saying like, look, even if you don't feel like that now, there is hope for you. You can become a more sensual woman. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I think the sexiest type of woman is a confident woman. And I am, I would say I am not a sexy person. I am,

and I honestly, it was a stumbling walk for me for a while because we choose really carefully what we watch. We don't watch many movies because it's just a lot of junk out there. But when I would see, you know, over the years accumulated sexy women. I'm like, I'm not that. I'm not hot. I'm not alluring. I'm not seductive. And so then I thought, I have to change myself to be that.

And over the years, I started realizing what sexy looks like for me. And that looks like me being fully me and me being confident in my body and me knowing that my husband likes me. And there's this really cool hormone that floods through a man's body when he has orgasms with his wife. It's called basopressin. And it's called a monogamy hormone. And what's so sweet about that is that it bonds him emotionally to the one he's making love with.

And they did a study where they showed a man lots of pictures of women and he had brain sensors on. But the one picture that they showed him of his wife, his brain lit up with all of these emotive experiences. Because he had been intimate with her. He had this neural pathway set into his brain that that is my woman. I can see all these other women. And I know that that can be a whole other conversation. with the amount of distraction that there is for men out there and women. But I think there is something so powerful about how God designed our man to be bonded to us

when we've been intimate so that we can know we are what he wants. And my body confidently given to him is the most sexy, sensuous thing. You don't have to be somebody. You don't have to be somebody in Hollywood. You just work on you being confident being you. And that's the most attractive thing. That hormone that you talk about that comes out, goes through a man's body when he's having an orgasm with his wife. Does that hormone still happen even if you're not married? Like, is that something

that happens if you're having married or sex outside of marriage and then that can cause complications because you're connecting to these people that you don't end up with long term? Yeah, it's really, I think that's why sex outside of marriage is so painful because those hormones are still there. It was by God's design to unite and bond and cement a husband and a wife. So that over the years, they grow old together, but they're still in love with each other because these hormones keep washing through their body. Even, this is a side tip for people who are married. After you have sex, cuddle be together because oxytocin is flooding your body.

And the longer you cuddle afterwards, it's called the cuddle hormone, but it bonds you together. And so when you have been bonded together, though, outside of marriage, you still have those hormones. You still have that cemented feeling. And it is painful. And so some of what the purity culture told us was true. It is like ripping apart two things that have been glued together.

and in an ideal situation in marriage, it is so powerful that it holds you together. What is the most effective and respectful way to express to your husband that you're not content with your sex life? That's a good question. I think putting things in the positive towards all the things you love about him and that you just want to enjoy him more. because our husbands get beat up every day, whether or not they articulate that to us. They feel compared to. They feel like they're not enough. They're not measuring up at work or with their peers.

There's always this underlying brew of insecurity in our husbands. And they don't want to show it. They don't want us to know it. And so coming to your husband and with affirmation, just saying, you are who I want. And I want to keep growing with you. I've realized that I have a lot of growth to do on my part. Will you help me grow? And you can ask him to help you grow in your sex.

sexual experience because you want to be a better lover. And so I think putting it on you, affirming him, just saying, I want more for our marriage and really I want to be a better lover to you. Will you help me? Maybe we can read this book or maybe I can just tell you these things I'd like to practice on you because I'd like to be a better lover. And so taking it on yourself, I think, is a way to really win his heart because he might feel a little insecure also in bed.

He might feel like he's not enough. And so your invitation is to build him up inside the bedroom and outside of the bedroom. And I think things go pretty well when you're able to do that. How do you balance experimenting in your sex life while still being holy? So, you know, ways to spice things up and stuff without bringing things like porn into the bedroom, for example. Yeah. Yeah. So I think the main rule, if you want to say rules, is that it's between you and your husband, you and your spouse, and it's love and it's honor.

And anything under that umbrella that doesn't involve pornography or a third party, as long as it's loving and as long as, as you're on the same page, then it's fair game. There are lots and lots of positions. There's almost like endless amounts of exploring that you can do between the two of you. And so if you need a little help, there's a website called merrydance.com and they have these little deck of cards that are like sex positions in stick figures. And so it's like really naive and really sweet and really innocent. But it's like, hey, let's get curious about how we can have fun. And I think places in your house, maybe trying different locations and different positions is a great way just to realize we can't have fun with this. We don't have to be stuck. We get our whole life to keep growing together.

And because God made it so good with endless possibilities of intimate connection, there's just a lot of territory to be explored in a pure and holy way. How do you overcome body issues, body image issues to feel comfortable letting your husband see you naked? If you don't, I feel like a lot of women think, you know, if I don't feel comfortable or I don't feel beautiful when I look at myself, how will my husband ever be attracted to me when he looks at me? Yeah. It's very real. And I'll just tell you my story.

So when we first got married, I remember that distinct feeling of here I am, but I'm really basically hating this naked situation. Like I would rather have the lights off. I'm just really, I wouldn't say I'm ashamed of my body because it wasn't like I had a trauma. per se, but it was probably just years of little T trauma, building up of not being affirmed, not being educated rightly in the theology of my body and my femininity and just a complete sense of ignorance and shame that came with that. And so what I did was I laid down one night and I just after feeling that angst of I'm naked, but I'm not so sure about this. I'm not so sure how I feel

about this. I just said, hey, babe, will you tell me what you love about my body? Because I'm really struggling to believe it when you tell me that I'm beautiful. And it wasn't like an ultra needy, like, tell me I'm beautiful. It was more like, you're my teammate. This is what I need from you. It would make me feel really helped and loved if you would shower me with truth. And this is the one way you can do that. And so I remember at night, he would just kind of go head to toe. And it wasn't even necessarily all sexual. It was just a body blessing. I love this part of your neck. I love the size of your feet. I love this little wrinkle on your, you know, your finger. It was just like the silly as things, but he knew me and he was honoring me. And that takes trust and it takes vulnerability.

But I found that the most healing times come when I feel most vulnerable and I choose to show up and ask for help. And so it's easy to shut down in that space and self-protect. And I understand if you need to do that, if you're not safe, but if you're safe, asking your husband, hey, would you tell me what you love about my body? Because I'm struggling to believe it and I want to be confident. And so that actually took a lot of times, probably the first year he just did that quite often. And then following that, I would just realize different ways I needed him to speak truth for me in different seasons. To piggyback off of that, what should you do if as a husband or a wife, you honestly are not finding yourself attracted to your spouse in the moment? Just in whatever season of life

you're in. You're just like, I am not attracted to you right now. Yeah. So I would, say it's a tricky thing because I think what you meditate on is what renews your mind. And so I would first ask, are you checking out other guys? Are you on Instagram kind of browsing other really handsome families and being like, I wish my husband was strong like that husband or was a farmhand like that husband or comparing? And I would then say rehearse all the things you do love about your husband. I appreciate that he takes the trash out for us. I appreciate that he pays the bills on time. And anything good that you can find, think about it, right? it, write it in your gratitude journal, text him a note, because the more, your brain will respond

to the input that you put into it. And so I will say that give it time and train your brain to see what is good and you'll start seeing what is good. And your body can respond. And you can also just invite him, hey, I want to go on a walk with you. If you need to exercise together or if you need to eat healthy together, you can make decisions and choices that can change overall healthiness. But I would say it begins, our biggest section engine is our brain. So begin in your brain by putting good things in, train your eyes to focus on your husband and what is good. And I think things will shift from there. There's this mentality out there that a female being able to have an orgasm through intercourse is like a unicorn.

It's rare. You know, it hardly ever happens for anyone. But do you believe that women, by and large, can actually achieve an orgasm from intercourse? Or are we just ultimately going off bad advice from like Cosmo Mags and stuff? Well, so I'm just a mom who has six kids in homeschools. I don't, you know, I'm not a expert, but I will say that I have found it possible, very possible, and more. Like, there are lots of types of orgasms. There's multiple orgasms. There's female ejaculation. There's unity orgasms where you have clitoris and internal at the same time. There are endless possibilities. And I think

the biggest barrier is our mindset and trust. And so if a woman can change her mind and really come down and there can be trust built where there is practice. And it takes practice. Pleasure takes practice. It's not something that you get married and then all of a sudden it should be on. Wyatt and I, my husband and I were just talking the other day. Like, I think the best marriage advice might be start your honeymoon night with a central massage. Like it's not about going from zero to 60. You have your whole life to have great sex. But great sex doesn't happen immediately. It happens with trust and with practice and with learning each other's bodies. And so we've spent a ton of time. time learning each other's bodies and honor each other's bodies and learning to communicate.

And I think that is the secret is learning your body, helping your husband learn your body, being sure that your body is good and being open to receiving pleasure. And I don't know, like everybody's different and everybody's the shape of everybody's uterus and vaginal canal is different. But in general, there's the G spot, which is easily accessible. There is the clitoris. There is multiple places of orgasm that God designed for us to experience. And so I think it takes us leaning in, even prayerfully, God help me to receive all you have,

because this is a celebration and I want it. So we can pray to God and be like, God, I need help having an orgasm. And that's totally okay? Oh, for sure. For sure. I can tell you how many times I've prayed before sex, even honestly, during sex. There's been times of joy where I'm like, thank you, God. This is a holy moment.

There's been times of grief where I'm honoring, like asking for prayers of healing. God, heal our hearts because we are coming together and have sex in a broken season. And then there's been times where I go to my bathroom before we have sex. I'm like, okay, God, I choose connection. Give me energy. Help me to switch gears from like crazy mom life to present lover because this is what I want. And it's a lot. Help me to process that and they really show up.

And he loves it. He's one who made it. He's not ashamed of it. And I think he loves to be invited into conversations because we're his kids and he gave us this playground to experience his goodness. Do you think it's possible that young Christian, couples when they are starting off that first night on their honeymoon or the, you know, their marriage night or whatever, the wedding night. Do you think that they're putting too much

pressure on themselves? Like, we need to have sex tonight. It needs to be great. Do you think it's okay not to maybe have sex on the wedding night and just like warm up to that during the honeymoon process? Oh, I feel sure of that. I mean, I think a lot of people struggle to have sex the first night. Either if if the girl is a virgin, maybe it's too tight or it's uncomfortable or painful. I would never say, force it in order to like do it on that night because you've just made a covenant before God for your lifetime. And so there's grace and there's love and it's a growth experience for both of you because two becoming one flesh is not an automatic thing. I remember in my honeymoon, there was like definitely awkwardness and pain. But we somebody gave us the advice of you don't

have to consummate the first night. It's not a rule. And so we started with touching and massage and it really did help to warm things up. And I think there's often way too much pressure and kind of this false promise of you get married, you have the beautiful wedding, you sweep away to the honeymoon and you have great sex. And I think great sex comes with great trust and lots of time and great practice. And yeah, it's something you build into. What can single women be doing in their season of singleness to help them develop healthy expectations for sex? Well, I think expectations is an interesting thing. I think giving God your expectations

because you don't know who you're going to marry and you don't know their story. But what you can do, I would say, is spend an inordinate amount of time with God. I was reading The Secrets to the Secret Place the other day by Bob Sorby. I don't know if you've read that, but it's just a classic book of like,

just really beautiful things of how to access God's presence. And he talked about the secret of time. And I thought about that and why I was so grateful for the years, even though I got married really young, I had been spending lots of time with God before that and how that actually gave me such a foundation when I got married and things picked up and we had kids and life is super busy. I feel like that was the most powerful preparation because I know who I am and I know who God is and I know how to access that as a wife and as a mom. And I was grateful for the time of preparation that I had in God's word, in God's presence,

learning who I am and what he says about me because marriage can throw you some curveballs. And it's not like you get married and it's pure bliss. You get married and you're you're basically fighting this good fight with another person to try to become one with them. And it is gorgeous and amazing and powerful, but it's also a ministry and a mission. And it becomes a place where you need to know who you are. And so I would say deal with your stuff. If you need inner healing, if you need therapy, work on that. Celebrate this time that you have to get whole because this time doesn't come back to you.

It just things get busier and crazier. and the demands increase. And so it's a treasure to have time to really work on you to get whole, to learn that your body is good, to do all these things of realizing that your body and your femininity has meaning and significance and is connected to the heart of God. There's whole conversation about that. But I would say treasure the seeds of the singleness,

because there are treasures there to be had. If you are newly married or you're about to be married and you've never had sex before, you've been waiting, what should be ground zero in your opinion, in learning how to have great sex. What is your advice for beginners? For beginner newlywed couples. Right. I would say find a couple that is having great sex that loves God,

who you can walk with because I think that is a really powerful thing to know that this marriage is not supposed to be isolated and away from everybody else because you will go through hard patches and you need somebody to look to. And if you need my podcast, use me until you find somebody in real life. But knowing that there's there's goodness that I can look forward to, there's breakthrough that I can have that we're not alone and isolated. I would say that's one thing is find a community, find mentors, find somebody to say, hey, speak into our young marriage because we don't know what we don't know.

And I'd say the next thing in terms of sex is just to go slow and honor each other with your pace and say, I just want to know you. I want to love you well. I want to learn you. and become a student of your spouse. Because I think when you do that, you become a student at their emotions, of their spirit, of their body,

and you get to navigate that as an act of service and love them well. And because we're integrated people, it's not just about like, oh, a sex tip. It's about noticing them. How are they doing? What do they need for me physically, emotionally, spiritually,

because it all is connected. How do you go up to or find another Christian couple and just say, hey, I'm looking for another Christian couple to mentor me, my husband? Will you be openly candid about your sex life? Like, how do you ask that? Well, I think it's pretty easy to see couples who are happy, who are genuinely happy.

And I think just have a radar out for them. Just say like, and ask God to help you because I know that God wants to help you. If you're looking for help, he wants to help you find that help. Because so often we're just kind of refusing to ask for help or oblivious to that opportunity. And I think once you have your eyes open, you'll begin to see people around you who are happy and pursuing God's way. And I think as that happens, you don't have to straight up ask them, hey, can we, you know, know about your sex life? But building relationship saying we want to grow and we want to, we want to invite insight and wisdom in all areas of our life, will you guys impart into us? And I just did a podcast this week about sex mentors and how we don't have enough of them, but how we do need them and how to find them.

And once you find them, how to be them to somebody else. Because this is a conversation that the church doesn't have quite enough, I don't think. I would agree with that. what would you say is the minimum or is there not a minimum amount that you should be having sex in your marriage per week? Is it okay to go a few weeks without sex or you should definitely be having sex at least this amount? I would feel a little sad for a couple if they were going weeks without sex because overnight, every night, your body cycles through arousal cycles. And so a husband has multiple arousal cycles throughout the night. A wife also has, it's arousal cycle where your body is renewing its hormones.

It's why you can have a dream and kind of be aroused in the night. It is just your body. It's why men wake up, you know, with an erection oftentimes because they, it's not because they're dirty or weird. It's because their body is going through arousal cycles. So your body is pumping out all of these hormones is working properly. Is God's good design. I would say that a consistent sex life is the most loving thing for your marriage and your

body because again, it's so much more than just getting off. It's not about just a release. It's about not only caring for your body and your sexuality, but cementing that connection. And so I would say in stressful times, have more sex. In times of sadness, do what you can to comfort each other. In happy times, celebrate in like maintenance. We call maintenance sex and just kind of like quickies, do it because the more sex you have, the more of those bonding chemicals you have, the more power you have as a couple to stay connected throughout real life. Is it okay for Christians to use dirty talk or use really graphic or vulgar words if they're with their spouse? I think it gets back to that law of love.

I think what comes out of your mouth is a revealer of what's in your heart. And so I would be a little put off if my husband started saying gross things to me or really objectifying things because that reveals what's in his heart. And so I would just say check what's coming out of your mouth. But we tease, you know, like, hey, babe, you're looking good. We give a lot of flirtatious and sexy text messages back and forth. We play a lot and we're very playful. But I think playful can be honoring. I think vulgar, I would just check what's in your heart and what are you consuming as media,

what's informing your sex view, what is teaching you about sex? Even as adult, we get sex education from media and check that and make sure that that's not putting things into you that are not on. because our bodies are amazing and worth flirting with and commenting on in really playful ways. How would you mentor a couple that maybe they went through a season in their sex life where things weren't going well? They were feeling bored or that it was getting monotonous or something. And so their idea to spice it up was to bring in a third party or bring in pornography or other things, BDSM stuff or whatever. And now they're like, I want to walk back from this. this was a huge mistake in our marriage.

How do you go from, you know, we've let in all the stuff in our marriage. Now we regret it. And we want to move back to the basics. You know, I just have to be straight up. I am not a sex counselor or a sex therapist. So I think that that would be a situation that would be so worth your time seeing a therapist. Because I would imagine there's more intertwined in that situation than just sexual behavior. Because oftentimes our longing for more excitement or more.

novelty when we bring in those other things is fueled by something under the surface that needs care. And so I would just say anybody who has any question, go to a sex therapist, go to a counselor because there is goodness and healing for us if we ask for help. And I would definitely say stepping back from that would be a great time to evaluate and to ask for some help on what does it look like to reorder our sex life so that it's lifegiving and holy and pleasing to God, but also wonderfully pleasing to both of us. Because you can feel the difference in your spirit between what is pure and what is impure and it can both be full of pleasure. Could you share about a time when you and your husband felt like your marital relationship or

sex life was drifting or in crisis and how you got through it? Yeah. So I think we've had a couple crises over the years. We've dealt with bouts of pretty significant depression and anxiety and some trauma entered in a couple years ago with one of our kiddos. And so there have been levels of brokenness that have. have almost broken us. And it wasn't as much an infidelity thing. It was more of life is killing us. And it's so easy to just shrivel up and give up. And so I think because by the grace of God,

we had had years of practicing leaning in, that was what trained us when the stuff hit the fan to lean in, even when we were so broken and so weak and weary. And so I would say that in those times, It was almost intimacy that glued us together more so than any of our words because we didn't have words. I'll say also that one of our temptations was in our weakest places. We're not good being weak together. We're really good being strong together. We've done ministry together. We've lived overseas together.

We've done amazing situations for like the kingdom together. But then when our great season of weakness fell on us, it was almost like we didn't know how to talk anymore because we're not used to being vulnerable in our weakness. Yeah. And so one of my counselors was like, like you guys have to be good at being weak together. And so that is another conversation, but it was the beauty of think of going through seasons with the same person. This is why marriage matters. This is why marriage is more than a piece of paper because you are covenanted together through thick and thin and it's powerful because in our weakest seasons is when God built us

in the most. We thought we were awesome when we were like high five at each other, taking the mountain. It was when we were so broken that we leaned in and said, do you still love me, even though I'm a complete mess, even though I can't, I'm incompetent in so many ways. And so it was through crying together, through, you know, going through dark seasons together that I think we realized that God is near even in our most broken places. Why is it important for women to understand that your husband can never satisfy you fully? And why is that good news and not bad news? That's such good news. Because he's not Jesus.

And our marriage, so this is the good news. This is how our marriage is like the gospel, right? In the beginning, God had so much love in the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Trinity. They made a man and a woman to be like them. And they said, you are in our likeness, you are like us, get married, be one, celebrate love, be fruitful, multiply, and take dominion. So marriage is a small picture of the love of God. but it is not the eternal love of God that we are made for. And so it can be wonderful and it can be what we want and it can be what we look forward to. But the reason we ache for love and we ache to be that bride in a white dress is because there is the bridegroom named Jesus who came and gave his life for us so that we can be filled with a love that

never fails, with a love that never runs out and with a love that will never end because marriage will end and we will pass on from this earth. There will be sickness. There will be difficulty. but the love of God, the one who calls us his own is the one that satisfies us forever. And so there have definitely been seasons in my life as a woman where my husband has not been enough for me, lots of seasons. And I'm glad that I knew he wasn't supposed to be because then I could be a powerful wife and pray for him and speak life over him and prophesied truth over him

when his bones were dry. And then he could raise up to be the man he was. And I can be a woman of God and we're both filled with the love of God and we're not killing each other to try to find the love. that we cannot actually give to each other that only comes from God. What does it look like to be a wholehearted wife? A wholehearted wife. So, yeah, I did a whole series on that, a wholehearted wife. And I think a big part of it is knowing who you are and knowing how to use your words to speak life over your husband, knowing that one of your ministries is actually calling him

out to be who he was made to be. It's about keeping your eyes on the eyes of Jesus, not on other women, on what they're doing, about what they have, knowing what he thinks about you. It's about living this life where he fills your cup so that you don't depend on your family or your marriage or the marriage you want to be the thing that satisfies you, knowing that whether you're single or you're married, being filled with the love of God is what actually makes you who you are and gives you something to give away to your family and to your marriage. What is the ripple effect for a family if a husband and a wife have an amazing sex life.

Okay, this is so sweet. So what I realized as Wyatt and I were in our first year of marriage and we were kind of, we're really broken, we're leaning into healing. We were finding counsel. We were trying to not kill our marriage in our first year. We realized that the more sex we were having and the more we leaned into God together, the more breakthrough we were having in our home. And what that meant was like we had grace for each other when we were jerks.

and we had ability to cheer each other on at work. And we had the sense of quick forgiveness. And we realized that our sex life and the more we pursued intimacy was having a ripple effect on the atmosphere of our home. So then when we added kids, we realized how much more profound this is. Because your sex life, like I talked about, is a microcosm or a mini picture of intimacy.

Just like your intimacy with God, what happens in the secret place affects the public place. So if you have a strong prayer life, you're going to have a stronger walk in the world. If you have a strong sex life, you're going to have a stronger love to give away to the world. And so what we realize is as we were leaning into our intimacy and our oneness, there was a shift in the culture of our home. And we had more ability to parent our children. That was the first ripple effect with unity and love and a sense of being on the same team. And then the ripple

effect was that a great intimate life affects not only your children, but your career and your ability to go into the world and really feel like things are well at home so I can go out When things are not well at home, it's really hard to go to work and be focused. It's really hard to go to work and be on your game. So it affects your children, your career, your community, your church. And I believe, like the work you're doing, it affects the culture at large. Because when we take care of the secret place that nobody else sees, and when we do the work on ourselves and our own marriage, then we have the ripple effect that causes our homes to be more

of a place of peace and wholeness and love. It affects our careers, our churches, our communities, and our culture will be impacted by families who are rightly ordered. And so I call it the ripple effect of sex because it's this power of intimacy when it's prioritized, when we work on it, when we get healing, when we get whole, God designed it to actually have societal impacts. So incredible and so encouraging. Francie, your podcast is called Heaven in Your Home. What platforms is that available on for people that want to listen? And what days do you release new episodes? Yeah, new episodes go out on Mondays. And it is on all the platforms and I'm on Instagram and yeah you can find me in all of those spots that you would

normally look for people just Francie Winslow. Awesome. Francie, I hope you know and feel so encouraged yourself. Just you are touching so many women's lives. I feel like what you're doing is so needed in the Christian community. And I'm so excited for cute servatives if they don't already listen to you to find you, discover you, be blessed by you. And I just hope you know that you're really changing hearts and minds and doing amazing work. Thank you, Alex. It's such an honor to be with you. Thank you for coming on the spillover. You're welcome. Thank you for inviting me. It's such a sweet gift. I am not the only one that thinks that her podcast is probably one of the most powerful and important podcasts in the Christian podcast sphere that exists today, right?

I mean, this is great for ladies and guys. Hopefully there are some guys who listen to the spillover this episode in particular because, look, guys need to hear some of this. valuable insight about women also. So you need to share this episode with them. Well, I should say, you know, your husbands. I know we got into the nitty gritty of things primarily from a woman's perspective, but when you're married, you are a unit. So what affects a woman will affect a man? These details are ultimately for couples and I think absolutely everyone should listen in. Single, married, divorce. Hey, it's useful. Leave a five-star review. Let me know if Francie's advice helped encourage you in any way today. Share this. episode absolutely everywhere, far and wide, and make sure you subscribe to The Spillover

if you love fascinating interviews with incredible people. We're back next Thursday at 9 p.m. Pacific and midnight eastern on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Watch this interview by subscribing to Poppletics on YouTube. I'm Alex Clark, and this is the spillover. Love you, mean it. Bye.