Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - How To Sleep Train Your Baby | Jessie Martin, RN, BSN

Episode Date: February 6, 2026

Is co-sleeping really anti-Biblical? And is half the internet totally wrong about sleep training? 😳Today’s guest, Jessie Martin, a Christian mom of 4, BSN nurse, and double-certified pediatric sleep consultant, shares her take. With experience in neonatal and pediatric critical care, she’s here to help families get the best sleep possible.Thank you to our sponsors!ZEBRA: Use code ALEX for 10% off any orderMASA CHIPS: Use code ALEXCLARK for 25% offBRANCH BASICS: Use code ALEX15 for 15% offGEVITI: Use code ALEX for 20% off your first purchasePALEOVALLEY: Use code ALEX for 15% off your first orderWILD PASTURES: Use code ALEX15 for 15% off your first orderOur Guest:Jessie Martin, RN, BSNJessie's Links:WebsitePersonal IGGoodnight House IG👗 Get Alex’s freshest fashion picks and exclusive guest recommendations—delivered straight to your inbox!Sign up for the newsletter HERE:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠WEEKLY NEWSLETTER SIGNUP⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠FOLLOW ALEX:Instagram |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ @realalexclark⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠@cultureapothecary⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ @realalexclark⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠X |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ @yoalexrapz⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ @RealAlexClark⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcast |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Subscribe to ‘Culture Apothecary’ on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. New episodes drop 6pm PST/ 9pm EST every Monday and Thursday.DISCLAIMER: This content is for informational purposes only and is not medical advice. Always talk to a qualified healthcare professional for any health-related questions or decisions.

What biblically do you feel like supports sleep training? God is a god of order. Being able to bring that into your home and give your kids structure and guiding them as parents. That's our job. The co-sleeping moms are adamant. They're like, I'm the one that gets more sleep. The sleep training moms are like, no, I get more sleep training. How in the world do we know what's right?

And could we just have Michael Vick have these moms fight it out? Is co-sleeping anti-biblical and pro-evolution? Does half the internet get sleep training totally wrong? That's what today's guest thinks. Jessica Martin holds a BSN in nursing and is a double-certified pediatric sleep consultant with the background in pediatric critical care, neonatal, and emergency nursing. She is a Christian, married homeschool mother of four who supports families by helping them all get the best sleep possible.

This is a juicy episode and highly requested. If you are just tuning in for this episode and you never been here before, just know that a few weeks ago, I did a pro-co-sleep episode that you can go and find as well. Pause, leave a five-star review on Apple or Spotify, and if you listen on Apple Podcasts, this is important, write if you are team co-sleep or team sleep train with a five-star review, and let's tally and see where the audience leans. It takes less than five seconds to leave a review, and it really helps us out. On this show, we bring expert guests on to Heel us at Culture, physically, emotionally, or spiritually. Watch the episodes on the real Alex Clark

YouTube channel or Culture Apothecary on Spotify. Please welcome pediatric sleep training specialist Jesse Martin to Culture Apothecary. True or false, moms who sleep train are anti-breastfeeding, they're anti-attachment and they're anti-responsive parenting. I think that's one of like the biggest

misconceptions with sleep training is that you, if you're pro-sleep training, you have to be anti-all these other things, anti-breastfeeding, anti-co-sleeping, all of those things. And that's that's not at all the case. I mean, all my kids are sleep trained one way or the other and I breastfed all of them. They all room shared actually with us for a pretty long time. Some of them, we had some interesting living situations where they were in our room for, you know, extended periods of time. And so it's definitely not, you don't have to be like, just to be pro sleep

training doesn't mean that you have to be anti all this other stuff. Sleep training is kind of described as this like all or nothing approach or, you know, you're letting your baby cry until they give up. What do you think about that? Yeah, I mean, that's another big misconception is that families maybe feel like their only options are to either do cried out or do nothing. And so there's like, there's all these extremes when it comes to this idea of sleep training. I mean, that's why I'm really excited to talk to you because there is so many, there's so much in between that that is not, not those extremes. Just to play devil's advocate, didn't our generation, I'm a millennial, I'm assuming you're a millennial, didn't we grow up with people?

parents who sleep trained and we're all kind of mentally unwell. Sleep for yourself, Alex. Yeah, I was sleep trained. My husband was sleep trained. Were you sleep trained? I don't know. I think so. I wasn't sleeping in my mom and dad's bed.

That's for sure. I don't think we can always blame that just on sleep training, though. I mean, I think there's a lot of things that we grew up within our generation, like smartphones and social media and all of these things that are playing into some of the mental health things. Yeah. that, you know, we face as adults now. I think their argument is it's this broken attachment that was forced on us by sleep training is kind of what their mindset is, if I had to guess.

I've heard that. I don't agree with that, obviously, but yeah, I've heard that. When you say evidence-based sleep training, what evidence are you actually talking about and what doesn't qualify as evidence? I think it's really important to look at a couple things. So you're looking at sleep science, so how sleep cycles work, all of that. you're looking at child development. You're looking at, you know, pediatric sleep health.

When you do all those things, you can take a really good holistic approach. So, like, for example, when I work with families, I have them fill out this long questionnaire and it asks all about their child's days, their nights, family dynamics, nutrition, medical history, you know, parents' preferences, all of those kind of things. I also have moms fill out. I use an app. They track with their babies, like, their sleep and they're eating. So they're logging like every nap, every wake up, every, you know, middle of the night wake up.

They're like logging these things. And they're logging feedings, how much they ate, what they ate, how long they ate for, like that kind of thing, whether they're nursing or bottle feeding or if it's a toddler or whatever. So they're tracking all these things and I'm able to follow that. And so I'm able to take all of that stuff back and make a really holistic plan and make it very specific for that specific baby in that specific family. And most of that plan is working on setting that child up. for sleep success. So we're doing things like using light and dark to help with their circadian rhythm.

We're using things like the rhythms and routines. So making sure timing's right. We're looking at nutrition and dialing that in. We're doing all of these things to set them up for success. And then, you know, if there are habits around sleep that are not conducive to sleep, parents are the ones who are going to be saying like, this is not working for us anymore. Only parents can decide that because I know there's going to be some families listening to this and be like, But that's exactly what we do. And we all sleep great and we love it. And so I'm not saying at all that every family has to do this at all. But I do think, you know, for the families who need it, it's helpful. So, you know, then if we look at those habits and see, okay, what can we do to help change these habits to help give this child, you know, confidence when they're waking up between these sleep cycles to fall back asleep. And I think a lot of times people are thinking that we're trying to train a baby how to actually sleep. that's not what we're doing because sleep is a biological process right like babies know how to sleep it's

more about changing those habits around sleep got it when you're looking at sleep training i think that's the thing that i would love for you know people to know is that it's more about changing those habits and you're using all of these other things to support that you know all these holistic things to support that before you ever even get to you know any type of habit changing can you explain what baby sleep is biologically because I think a lot of critics say that sleep training is anti-baby biology. There is a difference between newborn sleep and older baby sleep. So I think it's important to say that that newborns have different sleep cycles than older babies. But when babies go around like between three and five months, babies go through, everybody knows it as the four-month sleep progression.

But it's a development in their sleep cycles where they change and develop and they're more like adult sleep cycles. They're just shorter and they happen more frequently. So when we sleep, we all sleep in cycles. And when we go from one sleep cycle to the next, we all have what's called a partial arousal or it's this little mini waking. So for like you or I, what happens is we'll wake up. Like I know for myself, I'll be able to remember this happening like one time in the night or whatever. You wake up a little bit. You look around. Everything's normal. The house isn't on fire and like you roll right back over and go to sleep. And it's really fast. It's like this blip. And that actually happens multiple times every single night. So it can happen five to seven or seven. or more times every single night. That happens for our babies too. And so when you have a baby that is dependent on someone or something else outside of themselves to fall asleep initially, so like if you're thinking of a baby who like nurses to sleep every time or needs to be rocked to sleep or, you know, bounce on a yoga ball, that kind of thing, those little mini wakings aren't as mini anymore because when they wake up, a couple things happen. They look at

around to see, okay, is everything normal the same? And most likely it's not, right? Like, if you think of a baby who was rocked to sleep and then laid in their crib. And so now they, all they knew when they fell asleep is they were in mom's arms and now they're in their crib alone and everything's different. So they're going to have to call out and ask for help to get through that sleep cycle. If a parent has done something over and over and over again every single time that this baby has ever known to fall asleep, they're used to that. They're expecting that. So when they wake up and have that little mini waking, it's not that nobody. baby's going to do it, but it's very, I mean, it's very likely that they're going to need help kind of

getting through that waking because it's not, you know, it's just not normal for them to roll right back over and go to sleep. They kind of want to like recreate that, you know, that perfect sleep scenario. So an example that I like to give families is, like if you, Alex, if you fell asleep in your bed at the beginning of the night and the first time you go through your sleep cycle, you wake up and you're in the bathtub. That would be really shocking, right? Like you probably wouldn't roll right. back over and go to sleep if you're in the bathtub you'd get out you'd have to get out of the bathtub you may need like a drink of water a snack you'd get back in your bed you'd have to get comfortable you'd have to really work on like falling like relaxing and falling back to sleep but imagine if that was happening

five to seven plus times every single night that'd be really broken sleep right and so the same thing is happening with our little babies or our toddlers or whatever when they wake up and mom and dad have to go you know recreate whatever that perfect scenario is that's that can turn into really broken sleep. There's a misconception that sleep training is trying to train out those little wakings, which is not at all. I mean, that's how God made us all to sleep. We're not trying to train those out. We're trying to help those go smoother, essentially. Sleep training is just this umbrella term for a bunch of different interventions that you can do to help give your child confidence to learn to fall asleep and transition through those sleep cycles unassisted with the goal of

them having less unbroken sleep, so better quality and quantity of sleep. And when people think of sleep training, they go to like these extremes, but you can think of sleep training as being on a spectrum. So on one end is, you know, there are very slow, gradual sleep training approaches. And that's where you're making really small changes over, you know, several days, several weeks, several months. On the whole other end of that is the cry out method, which is like the most extreme, it's called extinction. I think some people think that any crying and cry it out means that you're doing the cry it out method. And that's not true. There is a very specific, you're basically, you put your baby down for bed at the beginning of the night and you don't go back in

for the rest of the night. And that's cry it out extinction. In between that whole scale is, I mean, there's all these different interventions and methods that you can use. And a lot of times, you know, when I'm working with families, I'm combining those. So I'm not just using one, but I'm combining those. So when you're looking at sleep training, they're, you know, it's not just cry it out. It's not, like I said, it's not just abandoning your baby. You're looking at all of these different things and you're able to meet them where they're at. What isn't sleep training? Sleep training is not, you know, abandoning your baby. It's not ignoring physical or medical or emotional needs. So I would say that is, I mean, that's a really big misconception, right, that people think like, oh, you just like,

toss your baby in the crib and ignore like everything and that's that's not what sleep training is. Is sleep training appropriate for newborns? When you have a newborn, obviously their sleep works different and they were just, you know, in your womb for the last nine months, very cozy. They're getting used to the world out here. And so I think that there's a lot that you can do to set them up for sleep success. You're not helpless when it comes to your baby's sleep. And you don't have to fly by the seat of your pants when you have a newborn. There are a lot of things that you can. can do to set them up for success and to help them with their sleep. All my newborns, I did like all the contact naps because that's like the best thing in the whole world is to like hold your baby when

they're sleeping. And so I would do lots of contact naps. And then when they got, you know, between six and eight weeks, I would start practicing with like one or two naps a day where I would lay them down and either get them, you know, like partially I'd get them like drowsy and I'd lay them down and pat them the rest of the way to sleep and then let them kind of finish falling asleep the rest of the way themselves. And if they started to cry, I'd pick them back up and help them to sleep all the way and lay them down or whatever. And as we kept practicing that, you can, you know, lay your newborn down less and less drowsy and kind of give them the opportunity to fall asleep. I think some people would call that sleep training because you're not like assisting them. But I look at that as giving,

you know, you're just kind of giving them opportunities to practice that skill. on their own. Whenever I work with a family with a newborn, there's no crying involved. Like, you're not like leaving your newborn to cry and, like, figure it out or anything like that. It's more like you're assisting them and then giving them opportunities to practice. There are parenting experts who say, if your baby is crying when it comes to sleep time, then their needs aren't being met. Is that true? I don't think that that's true. Sleep training is really about changing habits. And sometimes, I mean, change is hard, right? Even for you and I as an adult change can be hard, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad, right? And so a lot of times

when I'm talking to families, I tell them, you know, you're not doing this to your child. You're doing this for your child, right? Because you love them. You want them to be a happy, healthy baby. Typically when parents are coming to work with me or when they're thinking about sleep training, it's because they're noticing that for their family, something is a, something is an issue, something's a problem. So like the baby's not getting good sleep, not feeling well, not like a super, you know, happy and well-rested when they wake up kind of thing. Or parents are really suffering like mom's mental health or marriage or whatever that might look like. I try to talk to them and encourage them like, you're not doing this to your kid to be mean or to, I don't know, make them go through something unpleasant for no reason. You're doing this for a reason because you love them and you care about them.

and there are going to be so many things in parenting that we have to make decisions for our kids that they don't understand. And a lot of times they may not like it or just really even have the ability to comprehend why we're making the decision that we're making. But God has put us in this place to steward our kids and to take care of them. And there are some decisions that we have to make that they're not going to understand. And they may cry or emotionally express that like, hey, this isn't our favorite thing. And that doesn't mean that it's... I used to scream every time I was put in the car.

Yeah. Like, I was a baby every single time my parents put me in the car to go somewhere. I was screaming bloody murder. For sure. Who knows why. And that's an example I like to use with parents sometimes is that, you know, this idea of... Because we all know, either we've had a kid or we know someone who's had a kid or that you were the kid that screamed when you go on the car seat. So, you know, what do you do when you're driving down the road and your kid is screaming in the back?

You're going to, you know, talk to them. use verbal reassurance. Maybe you're going to stick your hand back and, you know, hold their hand or whatever. If it gets really bad, maybe, you know, whoever's in the passenger seat is going to hop in the back and sit next to them, make eye contact, you know, try. If it gets really bad, you're going to pull the car over. You maybe, maybe you're going to get your baby out and kind of do like a reset and calm them down. But what you're never going to do, and this is an extreme example, but what you're never going to do. Throw them out the window. Yeah, that too. You're never going to be like, you know what, little Timmy really hates his car seat and he's really sad. So I'm just going to, I'm going

get back in the passenger seat, and I'm just going to hold him because he's going to be so much more happy the rest of the way. Like, we'll all just hold it in the front seat when we drive. And we would never do that, right, because that's not in the best interest of our kids. And obviously, that's an extreme example. But you also don't see moms, like, stuck on the side of the highway for hours and hours because they're afraid to, like, keep driving. And so it's kind of the same, sleep training is kind of the same idea when you think about crying that you are doing all these things to still support them, just like in the car, that you're still, you know, you're still supporting them emotionally. you're still there for them. You can do resets, like all of these things. But the crying is communication,

right? It's the way that God has given our babies and our little kids to be able to communicate to us. And they cry for a lot of different reasons. So they will cry for, you know, needs that aren't met. You know, if they're hungry or they have a dirty diaper, they're not feeling well. But babies also cry for, you know, emotional reasons. So they can cry because they're mad, because they're frustrated, because they're sad. Like all of these. these things. So crying itself isn't necessarily bad. It's an expression. You ever notice how everyone's obsessed with kale, collagen, adaptogens, but no one talks about your gums? Apparently if your gum health sucks, your heart, brain, and literally everything else in your body starts throwing tantrums.

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for 20% off your first purchase at gogevity.com. That's code Alex for 20% off at gogevity.com. Stop guessing. Start testing. Is there a difference between responding and reacting to a baby? I think when you respond, you are responding out of a place of maybe having a plan. And so you're calm when you go in and you kind of know the things that you're going to do and the things that you're going to try. When you're reacting is overwhelming. You're kind of like throwing everything at the wall and hoping something sticks.

And so like every time you go respond to your child, you're doing something different. So they never really know what to expect. you never really know what you're doing. Like it can be kind of a mess when you're, like, reacting versus like, taking a second and calmly responding to the situation and assessing, like, okay, what's going on? Like, let's take a second. You really emphasize nervous system regulation. Walk us through how routine and timing and environment can really lower stress.

Well, I think that when our kids, even our little little babies, when they have a routine and they kind of know what to expect, really around anything, like if you think of just kids in general, that gives our kids a lot of security, right? Because they kind of know what the deal is and what's going to be happening. Especially around sleep, you can use things like a dark sleep environment to help with circadian rhythm. If you have a baby who is super undertired and you try to lay them down or a toddler or whatever and you try to lay them down, they're not going to be tired enough to go to sleep, right? That's going to be frustrating for them. So that already is going to cause a lot of crying.

you have a baby who's overtired. In our kids, overtiredness looks like overstimulation. It's really hard for them to settle and relax and fall asleep. So if you're putting them to bed way too late, they have a really hard time regulating that and being able to calm down and fall asleep. So that's going to cause a lot of crying. So when you can do, you know, holistic things and take a look at like the whole big picture, you can use things like timing and routines to help regulate their nervous system that way. I talk a lot about this for adults on my show, which is we need to be getting our circadian rhythms in check. So we need to be going to bed, you know, a couple hours after sunset, and then we need to be waking up with the sunrise. Do you think that as parents, we need to ideally,

especially when your kids are not school age and having places to be? If you're just a family at home, do parents need to be working to get their kids on a circadian rhythm schedule, where your kids are going to bed shortly after sunset and they are rising with sunrise? or is it different for little kids and babies? I think it's different for little kids and babies because they have higher sleep needs than we do. Because like if I got my five-year-old at bet, you know. This is what I ask. Yeah, in Idaho, I mean, sometimes the sun is coming up at like 4 a.m.

Like, I'm not going to get my 5-year-old up at 4 a.m. And I think that would be like a really rough time for her just because our kids have higher sleep needs. But there are things that you can do to help with their circadian rhythm. And I still think it's really, it's a really good idea, you know, just like for adults, thing you wake up, go out in the sun, like go out, touch grass, get some sunshine. So I think that's good, but I do think we have to recognize that our kids just have higher sleep needs than we do. Some parents will say, well, my baby has low sleep needs. How do you tell the difference between temperament and chronic overtiredness? It is true that some kids have lower sleep needs. When I hear

parents say this, I typically hear it's like, it's like, it's like extreme. And so that's where I'm kind of like, I don't know. That's like, that's like extremely low sleep needs. So there is I mean, there's averages of what kids at different ages need. And it's not a perfect science of, oh, your baby's four months old. They need exactly this much sleep. Every kid's going to be different. They're not robots, right? They're their own unique person.

So you take those averages and you can kind of start there. And that's a safe place to start. But then you kind of iron out, you know, where your kid's sweet spot is. How personalized should sleep training actually be? Like, is it bad to just copy plans off Instagram? I think it is really important. to have it be personalized to the family because every family is going to have their own unique things. There's going to be different, you know, medical needs. There's going to be different

feeding needs. There's, you know, just different. I mean, some people that I worked with, you know, maybe they live in a really tiny house. So they're going to have to do things differently than, you know, just some like plan off of Instagram is going to show you. I think when you can make it really personalized that family, it really helps meet the need of the baby. And the parents and you can kind of meet them where they're at and account for all of those things that are going to be different between families. The co-sleeping moms are adamant. They're like, I'm the one that gets more sleep. The sleep training moms are like, no, I get more sleep training. How in the world do we know what's right? And could we just have Michael Vic have these moms fight it out?

I'm kidding. That's very dark humor. I think the only person that can really decide if something is a problem is that family. So what is, sustainable and helpful for me may not be sustainable and helpful for you. So each family is going to have their own thing that they feel good about doing. And I do believe that there are some families who sleep better if they're co-sleeping. And if they can do that and that's working for them, then that's great. There are families who, you know, absolutely could not co-sleep because they just wouldn't be able to relax or wouldn't be able to sleep through, you know, having a little person right next to them. Let me tell you about the most damning part of the co-sleeping thing for me. And so I said this in the co-sleeping episode that I did. If you want to listen to that and you're trying to decide how you want to deal with sleep and your baby, you should go back and listen to the co-sleep one. Now we're doing sleep training, trying to get, you know, answers on both sides. And what the co-sleeping girl said to me, which was like not appealing to me personally was you have to be on a firm mattress. Okay, well, I do not like sleeping on a firm mattress. So I have like the squishiest

mattress on earth. I have a feather bed on top of that. I've got all down bedding and stuff. Like, it's like a cloud. Like, you totally sink in my bed. Well, that makes sense. I understand why she's saying it needs to be firm so your baby doesn't like roll around. Yeah. That right there, I'm like, okay, so either I've got to sleep on the floor or I've got to go get a totally new mattress that I'm not comfortable sleeping. If that's what you have to do to safely co-sleep, I'm not interested. So, you know, these are like the pros and cons that I'm weighing. What I think we should discuss is, are there real health consequences to chronic wakings? For the whole family. Yeah, for the whole family for sure. Chronic sleep deprivation, it affects, I mean, every part of your life, right? It can affect your mental health. It can affect, you know, it increases your stress. It can affect your marriage. It can affect just your confidence in your parenting. Everything like that. I mean, when you are chronically sleep deprived, I mean, you don't feel good. I don't know. Like, if you.

you've gone, you know, a couple nights without sleeping, you feel really, really bad. I think it's, you know, physically your immune system gets knocked down when you're not getting good sleep. For our kids, the growth hormone is primarily produced when they're in deep sleep. So our kids literally need sleep to grow. There are studies that show you have an increased risk for obesity if you're not for kids specifically, if you're not getting good solid sleep. Something that I've specifically noticed because of working as a nurse in the emergency room, there's like a huge mental health crisis. And doctors are just like handing out, you know, psych medications like candy. And I never once heard a doctor ask, like, oh, well, how are you sleeping?

Jeez. And I would just come home and be like, I can't imagine how many kids, because sleep deprivation can mimic the symptoms of ADHD. And so, like, I would come home and tell my husband, I can't even imagine how many kids are, like, being given these heavy-duty medications and really, like, we just didn't look at their sleep. We didn't see, like, how they're sleeping. As a side note, that's why they talk about having your airway opened up and making sure that you're not mouth breathing. Yeah. Talking about how bad sleep can mimic ADHD symptoms. You know, this all goes together. The sleep thing.

You're absolutely right. Another thing that I've noticed, and this, I mean, this is also true, but I've also noticed it with families that I work with is sleep deprivation, especially your chronic overtiredness, especially in babies, can mimic colic and reflux. Whoa. Yeah, spinning up, tummy issues, like excessive crying. When a baby's overtired, those things can be happening, especially because they get really overstimulated and it's hard for them to calm down. So, like, we talk about the witching hour, and I always think, like, how much better would the witching hour be? if like we were meeting our kids as sleep needs and you know if they were getting adequate sleep we probably wouldn't like struggle quite as much with that i worked with a mom who her baby

she was just convinced that her baby had like the worst reflux ever and her pediatrician was trying to have her do reflux medications and she's kind of crunchy like we are and so she was you know kind of pushing back on that and trying to figure out okay how can i handle this without medication. And so she, by the time we started working together, she was barely eating anything. She was eating like water and, you know, celery because she thought her baby was sensitive to food and was causing like worse reflux and tummy issues. And, you know, she got on the phone with me and she was just crying and she's like, he just sounds like he's in so much pain all the time. Like he has this high-pitched cry and I don't know what to do. When I work with families, we're looking at a lot of different things.

Like we're looking at nutrition. We're looking at daytime schedule. We're looking at nighttime. We're looking at family dynamic medical history, all these things. So, you know, we start doing all these things. And by the time we were done working together, she was like, he is a completely different baby. So what was happening with him? He was overtired. So she just had the wrong, like, bad times to put him down or what? A lot of times when I work with families, I noticed that they get into a, I just call it snack feeding. They get into a psycho snack feeding. So feeding and sleep really go hand in hand. When you leave the hospital or right after you have a baby, everyone tells you. you just feed on demand. Feed on demand. What do you think that means? Like anytime the baby's crying, just try feeding. Yeah, that's what you would think it would mean, right? So then moms go home and every

time their baby cries, they feed them because they were told, like, feed on demand. But babies cry for more than just being hungry, right? The default response is just to like feed them every time they cry, even though we could be like completely missing, like, oh, maybe they're tired. Maybe they have a You know what I mean? It's like it's the kind of the one thing that's thrown at every every cry. When a newborn is born, they need to eat really frequently. So it's like every two to three hours, they're eating. But as your baby grows, their stomach's growing too. And so they can eat more at one feeding and go a little bit longer between. But we kind of get in this rut of like feeding every two hours just because that's what we were kind of used to. And so what I notice with a lot of families

is that they get into this snack, snacking cycle basically, where all our babies have, like a caloric need, right? So in 24 hours, they need a certain amount of calories. And so if they're like snacking all throughout the day, they haven't gotten all the calories that they need during the day. So they have to wake up at night extra to get those calories during the night. So it kind of like turns into this cycle. And I'm talking outside the newborn face because obviously newborns, they do have to eat through the night. They have little tiny tummies. They can't. They can't get all of their coloric needs in in the daytime hours. But as your baby grows, they can. And so that was one thing with this baby that we looked at, you know, we looked at everything with him. And that was one thing

that was happening is he was just like snack, like eating like so frequently and never getting a full feed, never really getting totally hungry. And so that was causing a lot of tummy discomfort and spitting up and stuff. And then he was chronically overtired. So he was like basically not napping at all during the day. And babies need daytime sleep. It's different than, you know, us as adults, obviously. So they need daytime sleep and they need nighttime sleep. And so it was all just kind of like wonky. It was either like all on the front end of the day or all at the back end of the day. And so when you are able to kind of iron all of those things out and get them on like a good rhythm and kind of get their circadian rhythm, like figured out their body clocks, then that's what helped him so much was kind of getting on a smoother routine and catching up on that sleep and getting rid of some of that chronic overtiredness.

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lack of sleep. You are a Christian who sleep trains, and you say that Dr. James McKenna, who is known for co-sleeping, is coming from a non-biblical worldview, and that Christian mom should really be cautious of that. Can you elaborate? It's important to know anytime we're getting parenting advice, to know, like, what the worldview is and where it's coming from. And obviously, it's not always going to be, you know, especially with things like this, like sleep stuff, is not always going to be coming from a Christian worldview. Dr. James McKenna is coming from an evolutionary worldview. And just to use discernment as you're like looking into those things, I think you can make a biblical argument that it's okay to sleep train. God is a God of order.

And being able to bring that into your home and give your kids, you know, structure. God has given us our kids to steward and to love well. Our babies don't always know what's best for them. Our kids don't always know what's best for them. And so as parents, it's okay to step in and help them if they need help in a certain area. What does a sleep consultant actually do? So when I work with families, and this is just an example of what I do, but I have them fill out this big, huge questionnaire. So ask them questions about their days, their nights, their, you know, their baby's personality, nutrition, medical history, their family dynamics, you know, mom and dad's preferences of what they feel comfortable with all of those things. So I'm able to get this really big picture, holistic view of, you know,

what this family and this specific baby, what things are looking like for them. And then I'm able to make a plan off of that. So I'm looking at things like using light and dark to help with their circadian rhythm. I'm using things like timing and routine like we talked about. I'm using things like I'm looking at their nutrition. So we're kind of like dialing in nutrition. I'm looking at the different habits that parents, you know, because only the parent can really say what habits are sustainable and what habits are and, you know, what things are hard. And so we're able to look at that and change habits around sleep. And so a sleep consultant is coming in and looking at the whole big picture and able to make a plan that like fits that specific family. Really sleep training is about habit changing,

right? And so I said this at the beginning, but when you are, when you do the same thing over and over again, every time you lay your baby down, they get used to that and they're looking for that. And again, like what's sustainable for me may not be sustainable for you and vice versa. So only a parent is really able to say like, oh yeah, this isn't really working for us anymore. Like maybe nursing them to sleep was working for a while or bed sharing was working for a while. And now it's not. Now we're like we're struggling. We're not getting good sleep.

But really only the parent can decide that. And that's where sleep training can come in because then you're able to tweak those habits and change them. And so there's this term in child development called Skagit. And so that's where it's this idea that you can help your child learn a skill with the end goal of them doing it independently. So like I know you like Montessori. It's similar to that idea of like help me do it myself. Like just as an example with walking. If you were going to, if you're helping your child learn to walk and with this idea of scaffolding, you're, you know, they're going to be toddling, taking steps and holding your hand. And if they fall down, you're going to pick them up and, you know, help them back up. Maybe you're going to graduate to just holding one hand. And then you're going to graduate, you're going to step back, and you're going to give them opportunities to try that on their own, where you're kind of stepping back and watching. You're still there to support them if they need it. But they're never going to, like, go do that on their own if they're not given the opportunity, right, to go, to go walk by themselves.

Sleep training is very similar in that you are able to use light and dark. You're able to use their room environment and really, like, dial that in. You're able to look at nutrition. You're able to look at these timing and routines. You're able to do all of those things and that's part of the scaffolding and then you can also change habits and the way that you can change habits I mean you can do that really fast or you can do it gradually so when I talk to parents a lot of times I like I said I use kind of like a mix of different methods but I always try to start gradual because when I explained to parents like okay so your baby's here they're they're co-sleeping and they're nursing to sleep for every sleep but you want to get them to where you can

lay them down and they're happily falling asleep in their crib, right? That's like a really far. That's a really far gap to go. So I talk about let's do some like step downs. And so we'll go from like nursing to sleep to rocking to sleep instead for a period of time. And then rocking to sleep to holding still to sleep for a period of time. So it doesn't have to be just like tossing your kid in the crib and walking away. You can you can definitely take a different approach and step down. Is part of sleep training picking a bedtime? Let's just say. I don't know, 730 or something. And then you have to stick to that, like as close as possible.

So if you're out to eat or whatever, knowing that you need to wrap up so that you're putting your baby in bed at 730 at home. So not necessarily. So when I'm talking to families, when we're like in the midst of like solving their child's sleep problems, I ask them. It would benefit everyone if you can be like really strict with this schedule for the next two weeks that we're working together. But after that, your child will be sleeping a lot better and you can get off schedule. So you could go out to dinner and they could get put down late for bed and they're going to be totally fine. It's not going to like wreck everything that you just did. You can jump right back in the next day and pick up where, you know, where you were.

So like I said, what I don't like about co-sleeping. That's probably what I don't like about what I think is sleep training. Yeah. Is this like prison a lot of parents I know seem to be in, which is like, oh, sorry, we're in the middle of having like tons of fun at this dinner party, but it's 645. We got to go because her baby has to be in bed at 715. I'm like, why can't you just put them in bed in the guest room? Like, but maybe I'm ignorant because I'm not a parent. I don't know.

I'm, you know, you can tell me that. But I don't know. That just seems miserable to me to live life like that. I mean, I think you can use their schedule as a tool to serve your family. So I think we have to be realistic and understand that our kids have sleep, like they have sleep needs. And they're going to change as they grow. And so I think there's a good balance between knowing that you need to meet those sleep needs. Because if you don't, they're not going to feel good, right?

they're going to get chronically overtired and you're going to have, you know, these, the side effects of chronic sleep deprivation. But there's also a sense in that you still have to live your life and you still have to be in community and be able to go out to dinner or go on vacation. And so that's where you can use that, that routine to, I mean, it's a tool for your family to use. So when you're at home and, you know, you're just going to be at home for the week, then, yeah, like, follow the schedule, like, meet their sleep needs. But if you want to go out for dinner and stay out late, that's, that's totally okay. Like you can go on vacation. And then when you get home, you just kind of jump right back into the routine and your kids know that.

So like my kids, we can go on vacation and they can like be staying up partying way later than normal. And they'll do fine when we go back home because they just know what to expect. If a parent is listening right now and totally desperate for sleep, what are a couple things that they need to fix right now before starting sleep training? I think it can be really helpful to again look at their sleep needs. That's like one of the first things that I will do with families is, okay. And I mean, you can just go on the internet and find like what the average sleep needs are for your kids age. And following like wake windows or following a schedule or routine that's based off of age appropriate wake windows can really, really help because you're like laying them down to sleep when they're ready for it. It's not you're not like undershooting or overshooting. And so it makes falling to sleep so much easier for them. So that alone can make a huge difference. Another thing when you're talking like little, you know, like younger babies. is dialing in the nutrition and doing intentional feedings. Every time that you feed your baby, that you're aiming for good full feeding so that you're not getting into that snacking cycle using

darkness. So light and dark to help. Darkness signals to your brain that is time to sleep. And then when you bring them into the light, it signals your brain that is time to wake up. And different hormones and different things are being released, whether you're in the dark or out in the light. So really like making sure that your kid's room is super blacked out can be really helpful to like help start training their circadian rhythm and help kind of like dialing that in. So those kind of things can be really helpful. How do you know if your baby is actually ready for sleep training or if the timing is wrong? I don't think that there's really a wrong time to sleep train. I mean, it's never too late to help your kid get, you know, better sleep. If you notice that there's an issue,

there's not there's not a too late time. I think, I mean, if I could encourage like every pregnant mom, We spent all this time, you know, planning our baby's nursery and planning our baby registry. And for some reason, we don't plan for sleep very often. And so if I can encourage every, like, pregnant mom, that you can plan for sleep and, like, talk to your husband and kind of make a plan about how you want to handle this. It will make your marriage easier and it will make just life in general easier if you kind of have an idea of what you want to do. And if you do, you know, a little bit of research on that to understand how baby sleep works.

I think that could be really helpful for families. And then a lot of times, if you start when they're newborns, like, that's what I did with all my kids. I started when they were, you know, day one. And I was being very intentional to lay a healthy sleep foundation for them. And then I never had to do like any type of crazy sleep training with them because when they went through that four-month sleep regression and their sleep cycles changed, they had those skills to fall asleep independently because I gave them little opportunities slowly as they were going through the newborn stage. So they had those opportunities to learn that. And then when they went through the four-month sleep progression, they were able to kind of just continue on with that. When parents come to you and say, Jesse, I tried sleep training, did not work for me. When you, like, dig deep into what they were doing, what is the most common mistake that you see these parents make that claim it didn't work. Well, I agree with what you said. You said it at the beginning of the co-sleeping episode. And you said, parents deserve more than let them cry. And I completely agree with that. Because there is so much more that could be told to. them, just like all of these foundational things, setting a child up for sleep success is so important. And so I think a lot of times that piece is missing. And so parents here like, oh, just let them,

you know, just do cry it out. And so they're thinking in their head that there's like, it's something about the crying that is teaching them. And it's not the crying. Like the crying is just a, that's just communication. Like there's nothing magical and just like letting your baby cry for like no reason. If you're not meeting their sleep needs during the day, so they're going to bed super overtired, it's going to be a train wreck at night if you're trying to change habits and go from, you know, this to this in one night or whatever. So a lot of times it's either, you know, they picked a method that maybe wasn't appropriate for their child's temperament or they just didn't have all the information of like all these other really significant holistic pieces that you can use

to help make sleep training go so much smoother. What do moms get wrong about naps? There's a couple of things. I think there's this idea that we have to like tire out our kids. So that would be one thing that like we kind of swing to to one side of the pendulum where like, oh, I just, I need to keep them up and get them really tired and like run them so that they're just like so exhausted. And like I said earlier, an overtired baby or toddler is going to be overstimulated. So that makes it really hard for them to fall asleep.

I think also just the timing in general, like it being too far on one end of the day. So like all their day sleep maybe happens in the morning. But then they're going, you know, like six to eight hours the rest of the day before bed. So then they're going to bed super overtired or the opposite. They're napping way late in the day like five, six, the clock they're taking like these extensive long naps. And then parents are like, why won't they sleep at night? It's because like, well, they slept a ton at the end of the day. So they're not tired enough, you know, to fall asleep at bedtime. or to, you know, keep that sleep going through the night if it's like all wonky. You know how your body has that behind the scene system that keeps everything running smoothly? Well, that's your endocrine system. I think if it like a traffic controller for your hormones, regulating sleep, mood, metabolism, growth, even kids' development. Now, what shocked me is realizing how much what we clean with at home can interfere with that system. Most conventional cleaners are full of endocrine disruptors that we're breathing in every single day, especially kids and pets who are closer to the floor and also just our little people friends and very short wives.

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but when I'm busy or tired, I'll just skip a meal, which sounds harmless until your energy tanks, your mood drops, and your body starts running on fumes. This is not a good plan, especially for fertility. So that's why I always keep Paleo Valley 100% grass-fed beef sticks on hand. These aren't your average gas station meat sticks, pretending to be healthy. Paleo Valley beef sticks are made from 100% grass-fed grass-finished beef, raised on natural pastures by family farmers here in the U.S. and seasoned with organic

spices. Now, what makes them really different and why they actually sit well with your body is that they're naturally fermented, so they're not preserved with chemicals or junk ingredients. That fermentation process supports digestion and gives them a flavor that's actually really good. It's not artificial smoke, it's not mystery seasoning. Each stick has seven grams of protein. They're super filling and they're easy, which matters when life is chaotic. I'll just throw one in my purse, my tote bag, have one between meetings, keep it in the glove box of my car, or grab one when I realize it's 3 p.m. and I kind of forgot to eat lunch. They come in flavors like original jalapeno, summer sausage, garlic summer sausage in terriaki, and they were even voted one of the

top snacks of the year by Paleo Magazine. If you want a snack that actually supports your body instead of tricking it, head to paleovely.com. Use code Alex for 15% off your whole order. That's Paleo Valley.com, code Alex for 15% off. Can you walk us through what an ideal bed routine looks like? If it's a baby or a toddler that you're still like breastfeeding or bottle feeding, I just encourage families to kind of do that at the beginning of the routine. So still like get those good cuddles in, like have that time, but do that at the beginning. It really doesn't matter like what you're doing in your bedtime routine.

That's not, there's not like a secret formula for what's going to be best. It's more the fact that you're doing it the same way every single night because it's a cue to your kid's brain that like, oh, we're getting ready for sleep. But a routine that I like is feeding first. Jammies, you know, read a book or sing or pray or whatever, you know, lights out, sound machine on or fan on and lay them down in crib. So that would be like, for my kids, that was like our quick, like, bedtime routine. But it, you know, it doesn't have to be this super long, extensive, you know, takes 30 minutes with all these steps that you have to do. It can be like really fast. It's more about that you're doing the same thing every night so that they understand.

to like, oh, it's time for sleep. Like, there were a couple of times where I was doing a bedtime routine with my youngest. And as soon as, like, I couldn't see her because she was up here. But as soon as I started, like, doing our bedtime routine, so I was like singing our song or whatever, she'd start yawning and, like, rubbing her eyes. And, like, she had just been, like, plain and, like, totally awake. And then we go in and start her bedtime routine. And it's, like, signaling to her, like, oh, like, this is what we're doing. We're getting ready for bed. Okay. So you put your baby down. Baby starts crying. It's been a couple hours. Now there's crying. How long do you wait? What do you do? And how do you stay calm so you don't sabotage it?

I would probably give them like five minutes and just assess. So that's like stepping back and taking a second. Okay. What, you know, what is this cry? Are they like screaming? Like is this like a pain cry? Or is it a hungry cry? Is it time for them to eat? Because, you know, some kids are still getting feeds like when you're sleep training. So there's going to be times where like is this a normal time that they'd wake up where they're hungry. So taking a second to kind of stand back and assess. Is it just kind of like, a really light kind of fuss where they're just, they are going through a sleep cycle. And so you can wait a second and see, okay, are they going to fall back asleep or do they, is there something that they're like going to need? How do you know if it's a hungry cry or I'm in pain or what? Well, I think that's one of the cool things about laying a healthy sleep foundation for your kids is you can discern those things a lot easier. At least like for me, I was able to discern those things. And when I talk to moms, they're like, man, it's so much easier to understand like what they need. Because if you think about a baby who is nursed to sleep, they associate nutrition with nursing or bottle feeding,

and they associate nursing or bottle feeding with sleep, right? So like two things, they associate the same thing. And so it's really hard to know when they wake up and they're crying is like, oh man, are they hungry? Are they tired? Like, what do they need here? But when you work through this process of laying this healthy sleep foundation with them, you're able to better understand those cries and better, you know, better discern like, okay, is this like a hungry? Because you know, okay, I just fed them a good full feed, you know, an hour ago. So they're probably not hungry. I had that situation with my youngest where one night I laid her down. We did like all bedtime routine. I laid her down in her crib. And I walked out and she started crying. And I was like,

oh, that's weird because like my kids go to sleep very happy. Like there is not crying. around bedtime. They're very happy and content to lay down. They just like a very peaceful time in our home. And so I was like, oh, that's weird that she's crying. And so I go back in and I like got her up for a second. I undid her sleep sack. I undid her jammies. And one of my children had shoved a Lego down the back of her jammies. Ow! So she was laying on like a Lego. So every time I laid her down, she was crying because she was in pain. And so I just think like, I wonder what, like, how long this would have taken me to figure out what was wrong with her if I had always like nursed her to sleep or if she wasn't a solid sleeper. And so I would have just thought like, oh, I need to go in and

like rock her again. Like she just wasn't all the way of sleep when I transferred her or maybe she's hungry again or like whatever. I would have been trying all these things. I'm like so glad that I like had our routines and like had, you know, this foundation laid for her so that I knew that that was not just like a tired cry. I knew that that was something that, you know, I need to look into more because it was very strange for her to be crying at bedtime. So I think it can kind of help you discern what their needs are a little bit easier. What does it mean to respond without rescuing? I always talk to parents about when we're working on changing these habits, their role is kind of shifting. So instead of physically helping their child to sleep, like before, maybe they literally

were like, you know, rocking, bouncing, like doing whatever they could to physically help their child fall asleep. Your role is shifting a little bit. And so you, you, so you, you literally were like, you know, rocking, bouncing, Your role is shifting a little bit. And so you are there to support them and comfort them, but they're learning to do that work of falling to sleep themselves. Because you're helping them change those habits, right? Yep. So you're still there to support them.

You're just, but you're giving them the opportunity to work on the, you know, work on falling asleep themselves. Should feeds be weaned before trying sleep training? Can you do it during it or do you do it after sleep training is established? It really depends on what the family wants. So some families want to keep a certain number of feedings at night, and that's totally fine. It's more about the transition between sleep cycles that the baby is able to, like, confidently and securely, like, fall back asleep without needing the feeding. But you can still keep a feeding in at night.

So when I'm working with families, like if a mom saying, you know, my baby's old enough, I got the okay from the pediatrician, like, I really want to wean all these night feeds. I typically do that after because a lot of times when a baby starts sleeping better, they start sleeping through those feeds because they were kind of waking up. They weren't always necessarily waking up out of hunger. It was like a mix. So once they're sleeping better, they kind of tend to start sleeping through a lot of those feedings anyways. What do you do when sleep training works great for several nights and then just starts to completely fall apart? I think just staying consistent can be really helpful. I think sometimes depending on the kid, it's okay to take a step back and say, okay. Is what we're doing working? Do we need to take a little bit of a different approach? Is, you know, is something, are they starting to get sick? Like, that happens a lot. A lot is, you know, you'll be in the middle of sleep training and mom will text me and be like, ah, she has a fever or whatever. What changes when your baby's sick? So then when they're sick, I usually tell parents, you know, your baby's going to need some extra, like, cuddles and love and, you know, they're going to need some extra support through being sick. So do what you can. Like if, if you don't have to go,

all the way back to, you know, co-sleeping, nursing to sleep. If you can comfort in other ways, that's great. If not, do what you need to do, and we'll jump back in in, you know, in a couple days or whatever when they're feeling better. How can parents work with you? I have a website. It's the goodnighthouse.com and parents can work with me either one-on-one where I do what I said. They fill out that big sleep questionnaire, and then I make a plan that specific to their family and their baby. And then for newborns, I have a newborn sleep class that they can do and you can And you can just get that downloaded and listen to it within like an hour for newborn sleep. And then I also have a three to four month sleep guide for families who have kind of like younger babies between that three and four month age where their sleep cycles are starting to change.

And they're wanting to know kind of how to get through that or like approach that in like a proactive way. And then I also have a code for your audience if they want to use it. Code Alex. Okay. We'll work on any of like the newborn class or any guides. What's your Instagram at the Good Nighthouse? If you could offer one remedy to heal us at culture, physically, emotionally, or spiritually, what would it be? Well, I really agree with Charlie on this that prioritizing family is the most important thing.

And I think that, you know, that starts with having a relationship with the Lord. So understanding that we're all sinful, we all fall short, and that God loved us so much that he sent his son to die for us. He took our sins on the cross. He died and he rose again. And if we put our faith in him, we have the privilege and the joy of spending eternity with him. So I think that's the first thing that builds strong families. The next thing is strong marriages, right? The best thing that you can do for your kids is love your spouse and love them well.

And, you know, people say, like, when they're thinking about having kids, they say, like, oh, we're thinking about starting a family. But you were a family before you ever brought a baby. into the world, right? Like, you and your husband are a family. And that relationship is so important. And when we're having these conversations about a lot of things, like, about babies, especially when they're, like, little and parenting, it can really focus on mom. But dad is very important in that, and in those decisions. And so just remembering, too, like, you're a team, working as a team and loving each other well. And then, you know, another part of strong families is raising our kids with wisdom. And, you know, people say, this baby didn't come with the manual. And, like, actually,

God has been really, really gracious to us, right? And he's given us his word. And we can look to that for so many things when it comes to raising our kids. And we can get so much wisdom from that. And as parents, we are getting parenting advice from, like, everywhere. You, like, open your phone and you're, like, hit with, like, 50 different, you know, parenting tips or advice or whatever. And so just remembering to take those, you know, whatever. advice that you're getting and compare that to scripture when we're raising our kids. And then lastly, I mean, obviously just like a practical takeaway from what we've talked about is prioritizing sleep and how that can, you know, benefit your family emotionally and physically and spiritually, I think,

you know, when you're well rested, you're able to wake up for your kids, not two-year kids, and you're able to just enjoy the time that you have with them so much. And so, you know, I would encourage families that you don't have to fly by the seat of your pants when it's it comes to sleep. You really do have a lot that you can do to help influence that and to just, so to just be intentional with that. Jesse, thank you for coming on culture apothecary. You're welcome. Thank you so much for having me. All right, has your mind been totally changed? Or are you more confident in sleep training than ever? Or maybe your team co-sleep. I'm not judging you. I don't have a stake in this. I am just learning as I go here. Okay? I told you what my pros and cons of each of them

were between the two episodes on co-sleep and sleep train. Don't forget to leave a five-star review. which team you are, co-sleep or sleep train, and use Code Alex on her courses if you're interested in learning how to sleep train. New episodes come out every Monday and Thursday at 6 p.m. Pacific, 9 p.m. Eastern with new expert guests, anywhere you get your podcast. We have so many different topics from parenting to theology to learning about nutrition and diet and chiropractic care. And I don't even know. It's all over the place on this podcast. You're bound to like something. Find the show on Instagram at Culture Apothecary. and me at Real Alex Clark. This content is for informational purposes only and is not intended to be

taken as medical advice. Always consult with a qualified healthcare professional regarding any questions or decisions related to your health or medical care. I'm Alex Clark and this is Culture Apothecary.