Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - “How To Survive Rape, Abduction, and Terror Attacks.” -Former FBI Special Agent Jennifer Coffindaffer

Episode Date: October 27, 2023

LISTENER DISCRETION ADVISED! After Jennifer Coffindaffer survived a violent attack from the Wichita State rapist, she became a decorated FBI Agent and SWAT Operator specializing in violent crime, gangs and terrorism. Now retired, she is the CEO of Firearms Beyond International, an organization that provides firearm education and self-defense classes that parallel actual FBI training. In this raw interview, she shares her story, the most impactful cases of her career, her take on the Idah...

Hey, it's Alex Clark, host of The Spillover. Before this week's interview, I just wanted to say hi to all of our newest subscribers. We've had a couple really viral interviews lately, so I just thought I would quickly explain the format and purpose of this show. The Spillover is an interview podcast where I talk to someone new every Friday that has valuable insight or expertise on a certain subject, or just an amazing life story to share, sometimes both, all with the goal of educating and entertaining primarily women, although I know that there are a lot of men who love the show too, which is very cool. We love a man with taste. It would mean so much to me for you to pause this podcast and leave a five-star review of the show. What episode hooked you? Which guest has impacted

your life the most? Why do you think this podcast is important for building a countercultural movement to what we see and hear daily in society? It was important to me to create a show within the conservative movement that would initiate cultural conversation among women. Have we done a good job of that? Please let us know by subscribing and leaving a five-star review. I also want to remind you that every episode is available to watch on the real Alex Clark YouTube channel. We also have merch.

A brand new, soft, unisex long-sleeve spillover tea is available on tpUSAmerch.com. Okay, now let's do a show. This episode contains descriptions of rape, violence, and murder. Listener discretion is advised. It's a true crime episode just in time for Halloween. My guest accidentally fell into a 25-year career as an FBI agent and a SWAT operator after surviving a violent attack. Now retired. Her expertise as an agent was in violent crime, gangs, terrorism, crime aboard aircraft, and she's a tactical EMT. She has received numerous awards from the FBI, Department of Justice, and the CIA.

She is the CEO of firearms beyond. International, an organization that provides training events and self-defense classes that allows someone to experience what it would be like attending the FBI Training Academy. You get to experience what it would be like as an agent and learn hands-on self-defense and tactical training by retired FBI SWAT agents and firearms instructors like herself. There's actually quite a few things I wanted to talk to her about today. Her story on how she became an agent. The cases she's worked that impacted her the most, as well as getting her take on the Idaho

four murders, the Delphi Indiana child killings, if she believes there are terrorist sleeper cells currently waiting to attack in the U.S. Plus survival tips that we can use if we ever find ourselves the victim of a violent crime or abduction. Please welcome retired FBI agent and mom of three Jennifer Coffin Dafer to the spillover. You grew up in Kansas. Your dad was a dairy farmer. You never planned to work for the FBI until you were violently attacked on your college campus. take us back to that time in your life, your aspirations, and what you remember about that day before the attack. So, Alex, you know, when I look back at that, it was such a different time for me, I think even as a person, because I was so shy. And when I say shy, that's not the right word.

I was naive. I really never thought about ever, you know, getting attacked or that anything like that could happen. I lived in Kansas. And it was, It was such a great day, I remember. We had what we call chapter whenever you're in a sorority. And so after school, you go and you study, you hook up with your girlfriends, and then you have chapter. And it was probably about 10 o'clock that night, and I remember it being extremely cold.

And whenever you have chapter, you also have to be in a dress. So I remember it being very cold and being in that dress and going just across campus. to hook up with one of my girlfriends who was also in the house to study for a Spanish test. And I loaded up my books, got in my car, and headed over to see her. And as I was driving, I recalled seeing headlights as I looked in my rearview. But not thinking much about it. I can't even believe that I noticed that.

And you know how you notice something like that. You don't think anything of it. So I continued on. As I pulled into the apartment complex, I went to the right. They went to the left. So completely didn't think anything of it. Pulled up, got all my books, gathered up, and got out of the car. And as I started walking toward her four-year door of her apartment complex,

I started hearing footsteps behind me. And I looked behind me. It's interesting how you immediately know if you're in danger. sorts of situations. As I caught his eyes, I dropped my books and just took off running, think if I could get to that four-year door and get inside, you know, maybe I could be safe. He took off running after me. I got to the four-year door, opened the four-year door, but just as I got it, he put me in a headlock, and he took me to the ground and, you know, hit me, begin to, you know, try and rape me. I was screaming.

at the top of my lungs. And I remember looking back, wondering why none of the doors I was looking out were opening. You know, everything is kind of more in slow motion, I think, when you're going through all of this. I kept screaming. And in the distance, I think he too, because he perked up, both of us could hear sirens. And so it was clear to me that somebody had heard my screams and called. And there was a point at which he stopped trying to rape me and instead decided to take me. And so he grabbed me and started pulling me out of the door. And there were stairs and a little railing on these cement stairs. And I grabbed a hold of that.

There was a car waiting with another driver to take me. And I held onto that railing. And then as the sirens kept getting closer and closer and closer, He was definitely alerted as was I thinking I just have to hold on longer. And he let go of me and ran to his getaway car and they sped off. Once the police arrived, what were you able to tell them? Were you able to speak? Were you able to give a lot of detail or just were you in shock?

Such a great question. I was hysterical. After he let go of me, I went into that complex. It was a three-story complex. I just ran throughout that complex, you know, not really having my bearings, even where my girlfriend and her father actually lived. He had heard the screams. He had called the father and gone out the other side of this complex, not knowing that the

screams were even coming from me, but just trying to help. Anyway, when the police sat down with me, one of them slapped me. What? Yeah. What are you talking about? So, yeah, slapped me to do. just try to get my, me to calm down. Is that normal protocol?

No, no. And I don't think that would ever happen now. I would hope not. I think back then the training was horrible. The treatment was really horrible. You know, they were really trying to figure out what happened. I understand that. But like slapping somebody, shaking them, you know,

trying to sort of physically get control of the person that has been traumatized, that really wasn't the way to go. I was a very, really a young girl at that point. It was just my freshman year. And so I was always incensed how I was treated. Two hours after your attack, what did you find out that your offender did? Oh, he attacked another person, but he raped them. Did you know her? No, no. This was all in the news, heavy in the news. The Wichita State Rapist. It was very heavy in the news. They came on campus. They talked to the sorority houses. They even had me, I only would agree to do it from behind black, but they had me at least describe the attacker who was blackmail, kind of a baby face, pretty tall, when I say

pretty tall, probably 5-9, 5-10. I'm about 5-1 on a good day. So definitely I was outmanned, and I had no idea how to protect myself. I had no idea back then how to fight. I really was just a sitting duck. Did you ever contact the other victim? No, no. You know, after something like that happens, I guess I can't speak for all victims, but for me, I think mostly what I did was lock it in a vault.

in a lot of ways. I really didn't want to talk to anybody about it. I didn't want to talk to my girlfriends about it. I didn't want to talk to my family. I didn't even tell my family, you know, back in Nebraska. And, you know, I just think you kind of lock it in a vault. It was just a traumatic time. And then the other thing, at least for me, and I think this is a good thing and a bad thing, I'm a compartmental. compartmentalizer, and I was very good at compartmentalizing that situation and making the best of it and moving forward, but not like a I am woman type of situation at the time. It was more of internalization. And so that's how that's how that kind of certainly led me down the

road. Was he ever caught? He was never caught. Never still to this day? Never to this day. And I was approached actually by a company that wanted to do a show about finding him. And he is my white whale. I have so many questions about this. This is what I kind of figured. This would complete my life agenda in terms of personally if I could find him. And I actually have talked to a couple of fellow FBI agents that we went through the academy together.

and I said, hey, guys, will you help me if I decided to do this? They're like, hell yeah, you know. But it never got down the road. This was 2020-ish maybe, maybe before the pandemic. But I was extremely busy at that time and never really looked at pursuing it. And so what year was your attack? My attack was in 1985. And how soon after that?

Did you decide I want to become a freaking FBI agent? I was computer science at that point. And I said, no, no, no. I remember calling the sheriff's office and just asking about I needed to get a gun. I wanted gun training. I just wanted to move into the area of law enforcement, put bad guys, put bad guys away. Initially, I made the decision to change my major. Okay.

So criminal justice, criminology. criminology, yes. So that was sort of the first step. The second step was how in the world can I get into the Bureau? Well, this is what I'm wondering, because you're 5'1, you're like 100-something pounds, I mean, soaking wet. Like, that didn't deter you? Well, I have to say, when you look at, and I was looking into it, I thought, there's just no way. In other words, I'm too small, I'm too short, I'm a chick, you know, and there weren't very many females in at that point. Are there size requirements for the FBI? There were, but those were changed.

There were, but they were changed, which was really nice. But they had you do other things to sort of, I think, weed out a smaller woman. For one thing, you had to pull 100 trigger pulls with a revolver. Now, I just, for anybody in your audience that wonders, that, go grab a revolver and practice, make sure it's unloaded, point it in a safe direction, and do 100 poles with each of your fingers. I feel like my finger would fall off. It's not easy.

It's not easy. And they've taken away that requirement since. They've taken away a lot of requirements because it was sort of detrimental to women, you know, getting in and everything. But I don't agree with most of what they've taken away with. I'm not even sure I agree with taking away that. If you can't do it, go back, work on your hand strength, and go and retry out. I really don't believe in altering requirements because a woman can't do it.

I believe a woman should be able to work hard so that she can overcome those requirements. And then that way, you don't have this line of separation with a guy saying, well, yeah, she got in because they lowered the, the requirements. Thank goodness, I got in at the time frame when no requirements. Yeah, I was going to say, do you think that the FBI now to hit diversity quotas is letting people in that they really shouldn't? Possibly so. Yeah, I think we've seen a lot of that. And then even being able to survive Quantico, everything's changed a lot. The pull-up requirements, the physical fitness battery requirements, a lot has changed since I went through. And it's really,

really disappointing to me because women can do all these things. It just means they have to work out hard for months in preparation physically. And you don't want to go out on the streets with somebody who's not in that kind of shape, who's not physically able. Right. So. Okay. So how soon did Silence of the Lambs come out in relation to your training? Oh, this is great. So a guy actually in my class, I'll just say first name, Mark. He was a physical physical physical. witness instructor at Quantico before he became an FBI agent. And he was invited to be one of the actors, if you will. He wasn't an actor. Like an extra? But he actually got to do the scene where he gets handcuffed. And so we got to go and, you know, be a part of that opening. No way. Yeah. No, this was

really cool. And all those actors in there, they're not actors, all those agents were true training. knees. Like the people you see walking around. Doing the obstacle course with her and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, everything. The guy who taps her on the shoulder and says, Starling, you have a phone call, the very opening scene. That's Mr. Bonnie, who is my fit instructor. And the guy who hands her a cred is Mr. Stowe, who handed me my creds. So it was really interesting because you see the people that became agents. So how accurate was that movie to your experience, training for the FBI? Oh, the training was very accurate, but you would never take a trainee out and give them a case like that or have them help with that case. But in terms of everything you see in that movie, that's real. Those offices, the photos on the

offices, the attire we wore, the obstacle courses. All of that was the way it was. If this isn't you, it's someone you know. In every friend group there is a girl who has like 23 cups around her at any given time. She's got her water. She's got her Diet Coke or coffee, some sort of healthy drink, maybe a lemonade, energy drink, and a bunch of other things that I don't even know when she's going to have time to drink. She probably doesn't either. Personally, I sip on one thing a day. Like literally, one cup of water could take me eight hours to drink, which is bad, I know, but that's neither here nor there. But if you're one of those weirdos that likes to have a lot of drinks, here's another drink that you have to try. Squeeze juice.

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flu germs being a passed around at school. The bottles are these little 11 ounce bottles that are great to throw in a lunchbox. The focus juice offers natural energy from a plant called Guarana and has a taste of beets and strawberries. I really like this one in one little bottle of the focus juice is equal to one and a half cups of coffee, except it's way healthier. You are never going to taste juice the same way after trying squeezed juice. Go to shop.com and use code Alex for 25% off. Shop.com. With code Alex for 25% off. I know you're thirsty. Shop. That squeezejuice.com with code Alex for 25% off. And if you forget, just click the link in the description. How many women were in your training class? Four women. Yeah. And they were amazing. We had a world-class

swimmer from Stanford. Michelle, that was my roommate. We had another woman from New York who was an exceptional runner, exceptional. And then we had another gal who was blue collar from Cleveland, who was a teacher. And she ended up actually killing someone within her first, I want to say, one or two years in a bank robbery shoot out, a justified shoot. And yeah, she may still be in. Laura is her name. Yeah. So after that, after becoming a special agent with the FBI, you wanted to make the SWAT team. You were still nursing your 10-month-old daughter. You had to do a 40-yard sprint wearing 200 pounds of gear, made for a, or gear so heavy, it was made for a 200-pound man. There you go. There you go. And I mean, how the hell is that even physically possible? Oh, well, a lot of training. This is kind of funny. So initially, I tried out for the Houston SWAT team,

and that's when before I had children or anything. And then when I transferred to the Dallas office, of course, I wanted to be on the Dallas SWAT team. And this is the time frame we're talking about after I'd had my daughter and I was actually nursing at the time of my tryout, which was extremely difficult, physically speaking. but I practiced so hard for that tryout.

And when I say I practiced, I would get up and work out, and then in the office, I had this wonderful partner, his name was Steve. He and I actually went through Quantico together and just our paths put us as office mates later. And he was so wonderful. I would go and run my half a mile, come back, run in that office door.

He'd be laying there on the floor in his suit, pick him up, pull him. pull him, you know, pick him up, which is what you have to do in this tryout and pull him 10 yards, really pick him up to a person. Like carry him 10 yards. And he put up with that. He was over 200 pounds, big guy. And that helped prepare me so much. So my hat goes off to Steve for letting me pick him up in his suit every day for day in and day out before that trial. So talk about that, that SWAT training experience. I mean, when you were going through that and they said, okay, you got to run 40 yards wearing all this equipment made for a 200-pound man in, what was it, under eight seconds?

Yeah, it's a quick. You start out, we were on our stomachs, and you grab the M-4. So right when the alarm goes off, the whistle goes off, you grab the M-4, and then you pull yourself up and you're in all the scar. You're in your vest with a chicken plate, we call it, which is the plate that's on the inside that weighs so much. and your drop holster, you have your gun on your side, you have a helmet. And my head size is so small. I don't know about yours, Alex, but I have an unreasonably teeny head. And I would put that helmet on that they would give me and, you know, this gear that is for a big man.

And my helmet would be going like this. I couldn't even see. I'm like, running, you know. What was your number one worry when you were trying to make that eight seconds? Actually, believe it or not, that wasn't the hardest one. The hardest tryout was the, or piece of that tryout, because there were four stations. The hardest one was the half a mile plus, and that's where I had to lift the man off the ground. That's the hardest because you'd already run over a quarter mile.

The time frame was very, very quick. And that was the hardest because you were already. gassed and then you're picking up this guy and I'm so small, you know, I would have, whereas guys, you know, most men are picking up the man from sort of under the arms, I was going down low, getting him at the waist because they would be screaming off the ground, feeding. I know. That was a hard tryout. My other two tryouts, thank goodness, I didn't have that going for me. But yeah, it was really, that was difficult, a difficult tryout. What were the biggest struggles for you being a working mom.

There were a lot of struggles. I mean, the biggest problem, of course, is just the amount of time you end up not being at home. And then the other problem, too, I think, is dealing with what you're seeing at work, especially when you're working cases involving children and cases where children were affected and just not bringing that home.

And it took me probably about 10 years, I think, to get pretty decent at that. I actually got where I could be two different people almost, you know, be the work person. And then when I got home, I could, you know, have those sippy cups lined up and be there for my children and play with them on the ground and just be kind of forget about everything. And kind of revert back to that naive woman I talked about early on. Because that's a really important piece that I think women that are in law enforcement that are, working violent crime, they need to keep about them. When you're given cases, do they keep in mind who the agent is and what their personal life looks

like? So like, do they try to avoid giving you a case that involves children the same age as your own? Or none of that matters. It's just like, this is what you're working on. None of that matters. Okay. I think sometimes they do choose you as a woman because particularly in undercover you get chosen because of a woman and being able to blend in and not being able to to be spotted or even identified it as an FBI agent. But for the most part, you're an agent. And your gender, your stature, your race, none of that should matter in terms of, you know, the cases you're assigned. How many busts did you make wearing high heels? A lot. You know, this is why. Back in the day, they wanted you dress like an FBI agent. You wore suits,

you wore dresses, and all of that is how I was ingrained really in the bureau. And then, of course, now we have special, you know, pants that you wear and shirts that you wear to ID that are dressed down for those situations. But girl, I'm old school. And that's how I grew up under Dick Ledwick, who was my boss, mentor, trainer. So in the middle of your career, you're focused on all these other cases, in the back of your mind Were you always following up and trying to solve your own case? No, I never had the time.

And it's interesting, as I said, it's something I will do at some point, try to solve that crime. It's difficult because back then, you know, there were no cell phones. Back then the coverage you have to find on microfilm, you know, the... There weren't cameras everywhere. There's not cameras everywhere. most of those people maybe have even died. Right. Well, how many victims total did the offender have? To my knowledge, 12. Oh my gosh. No, this was somebody who I was a serial rapist. Yeah, a serial rapist. And I think he never stopped raping. I think what happened was he was either arrested, died,

went to another part of the country, and then was arrested. There's no. There's no. way he stopped committing these crimes. I don't know why they stopped about two after me. I have so many questions for you today about current cases that are going on in the news. Also survival tips, which we're going to get to during this interview. But I want to start with some cases that you've personally worked on that impacted you really way more than you could have ever anticipated. What is the case, Jennifer, that still keeps you up at night? I think the cases, I'm going to lump them in a little bit, the gang cases. So I worked on the gang squad with the locals for about five to six years.

And gang work is, in my opinion, the toughest work. Why? First of all, the people you're dealing with have, in most cases, they're really not even human anymore. but they started out human. And what I mean by that is they've lost all empathy. They do not feel no matter what they do to you. Killing you, hurting a child, all of that is nothing to them.

It's like you going and driving by Starbucks and getting something. That's how normal it is to do a drive-by shooting. So dealing with people who really have become inhuman in that sense, that will always weigh on me, going into their homes and seeing how they treated children, how they treated animals, how they lived their lives is something you can never unsee. What were some of the scariest things that you walked into going into gang members' homes? For me, I don't know, I wouldn't call this scary, but the children.

Just in squalor, a child once with a, like a roach, like in their ear. some of these houses, they're really not like homes. It's solid roaches. It's like nothing you've ever seen. Cat urine, cats, that people can live like that. And we wonder why it generationally does not change these gang situations. When you're thrown out, So after one case we took down the Crips, a cell of them, a little sect of them. They were called the Polly Crips, 48 gang members. And those individuals I interviewed over and over and over again. I spent hundreds of hours trying to understand their language, how they wrote,

what their words really meant, they're tagging, all of that. wanted to understand it. And there were three that were amazing. Even though they were the leaders, they were amazing considering everything they had gone through. They were intelligent. If they could have just gotten on the wrong right track instead of the wrong track, but they were thrown out by their mothers at eight years old. And I remember at the time I had young children and you just go home and you hug your children so tight because these are kids with cigarette burns, with being beaten, and literally thrown out, Alex, in snow. Why would they do that? Why would the parents do that? They're drug addicted. They're turning tricks and the people that they're servicing,

don't want the kids around, and because they themselves have no other mission, meaning the parents, other than getting high. This is a epidemic that I don't think a lot of people really don't understand because unless you're in those trenches, you don't see it. It's not well shown by the media because I think it's just so disgusting and despicable. What are some of the most horrific gang initiation rituals that you came across in your career? Probably one of the worst ones was going to shopping malls, and hiding underneath the car of women.

And as they were approached, they would grab their ankles and slit their Achilles. What city was this? Houston. Houston. Greens Point. And then they just, what, they're just supposed to walk away?

Oh, no. Then they attack them further, whether it's theft or whatever they decided to do to that woman. But the reason you cut the Achilles is it makes it impossible for the person to run. Now, see, in that circumstance, what would a woman do? All you can do at that point is scream.

You can try to do your best to attack the growing area. For instance, if they're going to try to rape you. Rape is, and I know you did a disclaimer, but the reason a lot of women get raped, especially if it's a one-on-one scenario and there's no gun involved, there's no weapon involved, a lot of reason is because the woman freezes. and I have classes now that I teach, and in every class there's multiple freezers.

And you can get out of being a freezer by training and by being in those situations and being scared and overcoming that initial sense that you have to freeze. But so many women freeze, and that's why, unfortunately, the rape happens. Because think about this, the man has to take off his pants. He has to take off his underwear. He has to take off your pants. There's some time there to wiggle around. There's a lot going.

And he has to control you. Well, if you're frozen, it's a lot easier. There's a lot going on. And so I think it's a matter of a lot of women, of course, don't want to think about that or ever envision how it might play out. But, you know, she's still, that person that would have gotten their ankles cut or their Achilles cut still would have had the opportunity to knee, you know, as the person was spread out over them, grab.

So there are some things, the most vulnerable area of a man really is the growing area. I know a lot of people teach, oh, go for the eyeballs, you know, go for, I don't train that. I think it's nonsense, really, because the only thing you can do is try to incapacitate the person for a small amount of time for you to get away. But honestly, if your Achilles are cut, you can't run. I've been thinking a lot about if I ever have a daughter, just how many cool things I can't wait to tell her that I didn't know when I first got my period. Like, the more I learn, the older I get, I just feel like so much of the verbiage around getting your period as a woman is so negative. It's like, oh, this is the worst thing that can happen to you.

And like, it kind of is. But there's a lot of really cool parts to it also that when you know them, you really can take back control of your life. to tell my future daughter about the different phases and moods that a woman goes through during her cycle and that it's normal to feel like four different people a month. I want to tell her that her cramps might be worse because of the toxic chemicals on her pads and tampons. And so I will be making sure the only feminine products in my house that she uses are 100% organic cotton. Let me introduce you to Garnu. Everything you need during Strawberry Week, Garnu provides. You know them for their tampons and cups and now they make organic pads.

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in terms of wanting to show other gangs. There's nothing beyond our limits. So they're very known for decapitation. They're known for cutting off the limbs of their victims. They're known for being particularly ruthless. Having said that, they don't have the numbers that the Crips, the Bloods, the Latin King, some of the other gangs, Los Serenios. But they're all really cut from the same cloth.

Did you ever interview any MS-13 members? I did. And so tell me about that. Like, are they willing to talk to you and explain like their thought process or anything? Much more luck with the Crips because in that case, I had a lot over their head. You know, they were facing 20 years to life. People like this, though, I would imagine like, are they more likely to open up to a female agent than male? I think they are. Really? Why? Because I would think that they would be like, they wouldn't respect you? No, I think they, this is what my opinion is, and I base this on the fact that they always talk to me. And I think it's because I'm not threatening. They don't have the machismo with a woman that they have with a man. So they're not trying to

one up some guy. I think men sometimes in this industry are less caring. And I always tried to be really caring. What would you like to eat? What would you like to drink? How are your children doing? What's happening with your, you know, in your life? Because some of them do have children and some of them do care about their children, especially in the Hispanic culture. You know, they want their lineage to go on. Okay, so you're telling me that there are some MS-13 members who are capable of killing strange children on the side, but go home to their own children? There are some. these individuals really have no empathy, but they do have an interest, some, not all, but some have an interest in seeing their line go on, their name go on, having kids.

So from that standpoint, you also see that very much in the Crip culture. And I'm very familiar with that culture. That culture is a different culture where they would have 20 kids, in some cases, with 20 different women. And that was a notch on the belt. Each one of those, it's not about taking care of the kid or anything. It's how many could they father in terms of anatomically father? How do gang members typically choose their victims? Opportunity. And that's why I always say the most important thing is to lessen your chance of being their opportunity. And there's ways you can do that so easily, not being alone is a big one.

Also being extremely aware of your surroundings because they don't just happen upon you. Even in my situation, I did not take my first warning, thinking, you know, having that sense that somebody was following me. That was your intuition. Yes, my intuition. I always tell everybody, follow that intuition. It is golden, your intuition.

Follow it. Even back then when I was just this young girl, I knew something was weird. They were just too close to me or something. But nobody wants to think the worst. So being aware of your surroundings, we all talk about that and hear about it. But when you can live in yellow, I call it, where you're aware, it's a good thing. When did you retire and what led to you making that decision? After 28 years of federal law enforcement, I initially, this is such a great question, I initially, in 2015, I was working under Comey at the time on his personal protection detail. And it was really, in a lot of ways, the pinnacle for me as, certainly as a woman, but even as an agent, to achieve that. To even be considered for his detail, you had to be a firearms instructor, a SWAT operator, and a let's instructor. Alets is law enforcement training for street survival. So it's to be a let's instructor, there were two women ever.

I don't know, maybe now there's one. Patty and I. And it's just, you know, for me. It was a career high for you. It was a career high. So I thought this is the perfect time for me to retire. Back at headquarters, on the detail, it would have just been a really cool time to retire, I think. I feel like that happens a lot. Like, FBI agents, like, you retire a lot earlier

than typical people retire in their career fields. Like, you're not old enough to be retirement age. You know what I'm saying? So is that normal in the FBI? Like, you retire really early on just because of what you go through and stuff? You're forced to, first of all. Oh, you're forced? Yeah. Yeah. You cannot be an FBI agent. They may have changed the year. I think it's maybe 56, 55. Because they need you to be like with it. Yeah, you need to be with it. Now, you don't need to be, you know, they should do that for presidents, right? 100%. Just saying. 100%. Just saying. So, but as an FBI agent, they want you sharp. Yeah, you're right. Why do we do that for the FBI, but we don't do it for Congress, for the presidency? It's a very good point, Jennifer. Yeah. Yeah. So anyways, that's the whole point. So everybody retires early,

you know, in the scheme of things. And you're eligible to retire, in my case, after 25 years, I was only 48 years old. And you've been through a lot. I mean, for me, that was the Pinnacle. That's when I should have retired. I put in my papers. And then I got scared. Scared of what? I got scared of what will I do when I'm not getting up every day chasing bad guys. I'm not an FBI. The FBI, there's a term called a Betty Bureau. I was a Betty Bureau for a lot of years. It was your identity is what you're saying. Yes. And you were losing your identity. I thought about that I would, who would I be, even though I was a mom, I was a wife, I just, it was so much a part of me. I mean, to this day, I wear my cross somewhere below my hair, and I wear my 25-year pen.

And very few people have a 25-year pen because it is part of your identity. So anyway, I got cold feet. That's the best way to describe it, like cold feet. Like Tom Brady. Like Tom Brady. I did it, Tom Brady. I'm like, I'm not sure I'm ready. And so I, and then there was another huge consideration, which was a monetary consideration,

because at that time, I was stationed overseas. Well, when you're stationed overseas and you retire, you're only allowed to, they will relocate you back here, but they won't handle anything to do with your real estate. Oh, no, I wouldn't want that. And that was a big deal. So I held on for one more year, picked the perfect spot to retire in, and there you have it. Almost exactly a year ago, four college students in Idaho were stabbed to death in their home. 28-year-old Brian Coburger was charged.

Do you think that we got the right guy? I think we have the right guy. Certainly there is beyond probable cause in this case to believe he killed those four college students. So some of my audience is definitely familiar with this case, but some of them, they really only dive into like the true crime world whenever I talk about it. Uh-huh. So for those people, can you take us to that night, November 13th, 2022 in Idaho? What happened?

Well, what happened was really so tragic. And it was really, in a way, unparalleled in terms of the true crime, you know, what happens in true crime. Because this individual who was. a college student himself, who was a university graduate who also had his bachelor's, not only his bachelor's, I should say, but his master's in criminology and was working on a PhD. And that's why I say this is really unparalleled with no criminal history to speak of a little bit, went into that house, if we're to believe what the probable cause affidavit said. He went to the bed of Maddie Mogan and Kaylee Gonzalez.

walked to the third floor where they were both in the same bed together, which I don't think he knew, and killed Maddie Mogan, I believe, first, slaughtered her with a knife, a K-bar knife, which is a very large military-style knife that has a fixed blade so the blade cannot move, and then it also has kind of a safety. Now, you might wonder why would he want that? Well, when you're stabbing, a lot of people don't think through it that commit these crimes and their hand can continue down the blade. But this type of knife stops the hand because of this safety mechanism that is right here. The bar that makes it a K-bar.

And he slaughtered Maddie. Then I believe he slaughtered Kaylee Gonzalez. then he departed down to the second floor where he then slaughtered both Ethan and Xanacrono with the same knife. Do you think that any of these kids heard the other attacks going on and knew that somebody was coming for them? Yes, according to the probable cause affidavit, which is really the bedrock effect of what we know.

There is so much going around on social media that is just inaccurate. it. And it's really, really unfair to the investigation because it's speculation. A lot of it has been literally made up by different social media, YouTube. It's unbelievable what they do. But in any event, if you look at the probable cause affidavit, one of the surviving roommates, and there were two surviving roommates, she actually heard initial noises that involved Kaylee's dog, which I think kind of irritated her because they were keeping her up. Then she heard noises and whimpers of Xana Kurnodal, we believe. And then she came out a third time and actually saw what is believed to be Brian Koberger, all dressed in black from head to toe, nothing exposed except his eyes and

eyebrows. Here's my question. The first two girls who are stabbed, they're sharing a bed together. While he's attacking the first girl, I mean, was that other girl just like drunk passed out, just never even woke up or anything? Or do you think she was, she woke up and was frozen in terror? Did she try to escape the room? Like, how is he able to fully stab one girl? And then she's still there in the bed, the other one? I think the big thing to remember is speed, surprise, violent and act of action, which is what we teach, happened so quick within seconds, there's no time to do anything. I mean, right now I could grab you and, you know, it would happen so quick, you wouldn't even be able to scream. And so these girls had been out all night.

They'd been out all night partying, drinking. So they were slow probably with their responses. And I think really sound asleep. This is four in the morning. So this is well past the time they got home around two. They are sound asleep in their beds, these two. And, And so the initial stabbing takes place just seconds. That's all it takes. And then I believe Kaylee did wake up. I think she was cornered. You know, there was a wall right there.

I believe she was on the bedside to the wall. And then he came after her and attacked her. And then what about the couple who was there? Because there's another guy. That adds an element. I mean, a lot of times these killers, they don't want to attack a home that might have a male in it. Do you think he knew that that guy was there? No.

I think it surprised him. I think it surprised him that Maddie and Kaylee were in the same bed. Kaylee had a separate room, but Kaylee had moved out. She had only come back. She was visiting. She was just visiting. She was a last minute decision. She wasn't even going to go back. But then she decided to go back. She had a brand new car that she wanted to kind of show everybody. She was excited. She was getting ready. She was moving on with her life. She was already in the graduation stage. And so I don't think he even knew she had returned. He did a lot of surveillance on that house, though, so we may find more. He did 12 surveillance type of missions.

Do you think he was wanting to kill as many people as he did, or did he have one specific target? In your opinion. I believe this is strictly my opinion from Facts known. It was Maddie Mogan. Why? She signified, her and Kaylee both really signified the kind of girl that he could never really have. And what makes you say that? Like, what do we know about him? He was beyond awkward. He had lost recently, well, recently in,

you know, after high school, over 100 pounds. He was very unattractive, awkward with women. I never heard this. So he was, he was heavier for a large part of his life? Oh, yes. Yeah, he was huge. And he had the fortitude to lose over 100 pounds. That's pretty significant. I mean, people who have the fortitude to do that, to diet and exercise. And he took it. so many steps further. He became an avid runner. I mean, by his watch app, he ran at six-minute miles. Now, here's my question, because we know that he was studying in a teacher's aide under Dr. Catherine Ramsland, who is like a serial killer expert. She's an expert in BTK. He's studying under her was his motivation to lose all of this weight and get fit because he wanted to become a killer

or because at first he just wanted to get a girl, and then because he couldn't, he became a killer. B. So he lost the weight first, I think, hoping to reshape himself and to make himself more attractive to women. And I think he was truly an in-cell, an involuntary celibate, you know, somebody who just could not get women and was very awkward around them. And I think that built up a rage inside of him,

an anger inside of him. He had a lot of other issues. He became a serious heroin addict when he was younger. I did not know this. Yeah. He was a heroin addict. He beat, you know, his addiction. Did he have, do we know anything about his childhood, like if he had been abused or anything?

There is no indication of that. He has two sisters. His family are in the education, you know, worked at a school. We have no indication that he didn't have. an upbringing that wasn't quite normal. But there is every indication from many individuals who have known him, who have been interviewed, that he had a lot of demons and struggled with a lot of issues. Even by his own word, he talks about he had, I believe they call it, visual snow. And that's where his whole life was kind of in this horrible haze. So he describes

himself about all of his issues, his anger toward his father, his sort of hatred toward himself. Did it surprise you that he had been studying under Dr. Catherine Ramsland? I first learned about that. Right after his arrest, the daughter of BTK called me. We hooked up. Carrie. Carrie and I began a relationship really that day, but she contacted me and let me know this nugget, if you will. Now, I always had kept that just between her and I, because we talked a lot about it, she ended up, you know, coming forward with all the details,

obviously, you know, talked a lot about all of that. But yes, when I heard that, I thought that was also. But I knew anybody who's getting their Ph.D. and criminology, having studied, you're going to learn about serial killers. you're going to have extensive knowledge and training and understanding. Do you think that he had a kind of a weird fetish and obsession with serial killing? And so he was just like, well, I'll get close to it and that'll kind of satiate me. Or do you think he always had a plan of like, no, I want to learn everything I can because I want to become this?

I think it was something he dreamed about, fantasized about, hoped he could make happen. and he just worked every step until finally it culminated on November 13th. So the sheath of the knife was left at the scene. Do you think that that was on purpose? No way. Anybody who says that not to be, it's just ridiculous. That sheath is the only reason likely that he is sitting there right now charged. It was the lynchpin in this case.

It has his DNA on it. it's not even refutable. I mean, they came up with a number, an octillion number, that it's his DNA on that sheath. No, he didn't affix it to himself. And I'll tell you why. When you deal with knives, you want to be able to get them out of their sheath,

a big knife like a K-bar easily. If it's hooked up in here, you don't want to be struggling with exactly where it is looking down. So I think he had that sheath and that knife out just like this before he committed the attack, he took it and either put it in a side pocket or in his waistband. And then as he ravaged these girls, I think it came out. And he didn't even know it in the flurry of all of this murderous spree he was in. What do we know about his family and their reaction to this arrest? Well, they have not gone to a hearing. What does that tell us?

I'm an action speak louder than words. I can tell you if my son or daughter were charged with anything, I would be there front and center. Also, we know this. There was a woman that was killed over in the Pennsylvania part of, you know, on the East Coast. Anyway, they have obviously looked at all murders that are similar over there to see if there would be any connection. and they held a grand jury on a particular murder.

They subpoenaed both of his parents to come testify. His parents hired attorneys to fight going before that grand jury. Why is this? Because they're trying to protect their son, or they're just embarrassed and don't want anything to do with it? Well, I think if they were trying to protect him, they should have gone forward. In other words, if they had an alibi to show him,

he couldn't have been involved in those murders, why wouldn't they have come forward? Could this mean that they know more than they've let on about his behavior? Alex, that's what I think. I think that they did not want to be under a microscope, having grand jurors, well, grand jurors ask questions to you, but having a prosecutor asked them all sorts of questions that recall anything said in that grand jury could be given to the prosecution over in Idaho. Do you think they're the type of people that would like help make this happen, help their son become a serial killer? Or is it kind of a don't ask, don't tell?

Like, we're going to just pretend like we don't know what's really going on with our son. And this is pure speculation. No, but let me tell you what I base this on. When he was younger, he stole his sister's cell phone. And his father turned him in to authorities. And he was charged. So I don't think this is a family that wants to, you know, sweep everything under the rug. I think that they know they had a very troubled kid.

I think that it reached terrible levels of being a person being completely out of control and being in a murderous rage that they didn't anticipate. But they knew they had trouble, Alex. Why did Brian Koberger waive his right to a speedy trial? Because the amount of information the prosecution has, has is overwhelming, 51 terabytes, I believe, of information that they have. That's a lot of terabytes. People have tried to explain it to me. It's like if you took every movie that was made in three years and put it on a disc, that's what it's like. Like really? So what does that mean?

Like evidence against him? Yeah, evidence. And when I say evidence, some of it might not even be useful, but the defense still has to pour through it. So this is videos, this is interviews, this is every ounce of evidence that the prosecution has. So there's way too much for them to go through. So they just, they just need more time? It's going to be years, Alex. Years? People don't want to hear it. It's going to be years. Do you think that this is a trial that's going to be televised? No. Ugh. Why? This is a massive case. Why wouldn't it be televised? It is massive. But when you think about they do not want, look at how it's blown up on social media. It's insane. And these victims, I mean, I can just tell you from my perspective, coming from the law enforcement side.

I don't want to see the two surviving roommates as well as all the other young people who were involved after that 911 call came in, all of them on the stand facing lights, cameras, and everything. So I just think it harms the case. Yeah. But from a defense standpoint, and I'll tell you, Mr. Consolves,

he wants this televised. This is one of the victim's dads. Kaley's dad. Steve Consolves, he is leading one of the charges. He and, of course, all the media outlets. Why does he want it televised? Because I think he wants people to see what was done to his daughter, to Maddie, and these kids. It feels like justice to him. It feels, it's justice. And I get that. It really hasn't been since Ted Bundy that I feel like we had a home full of college students brutally murdered. I mean, am I right about that? No, you really are right.

Right. And I do compare it a lot to the Cayo House at Florida State. A lot of similarities in terms of the brutality. I think Ted Bundy's was possibly even worse because he was just so violent. But he also left survivors and victims and walked right past them. And I always use that analogy because people are so obsessed with the fact that people were left behind. And oh, they're must be involved. No, they're not involved. They're survivors. They're victims. Why would he want to leave them behind, especially seeing I'm walking past a girl right here. Here's a witness. Why wouldn't he kill her? Well, first, he's completely in black. I mean, this is all you can see. So I think he felt safe from that standpoint. The other thing is, I believe things had gone totally wrong in terms of this beautiful fantasy he played out and what really happened. In other words, sneaking in there, going up, you know, killing one girl

and then sneaking out and having everybody say, who in the world did this, and then having it be unsolved, and then probably going on and maybe committing others in the same way and being infamous

for being this incredible serial killer that was never found. That was his dream, I think. What is your prediction for the Idaho four case? I think he'll be convicted in time. As far as whether he'll get the death penalty or not,

question. Why? It's on the table, but I don't know if they're prepared to do that. They haven't had anybody that they've sent to be, even though they've had the ability to in decades, I believe. So I don't. Just as a state, you mean? Yeah. I don't, I don't see it happening, but it could. I finally saw the airs tour movie. I actually went to a drive in theater with my best friend Nicole, who lives in Kentucky. The only negative was. The bathrooms at the drive-in had those nasty warm vanilla sugar type hand soaps. Without saying anything to each other, both my friend and I, at the same time, we're like, dude, I want to gag having this on my hands.

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Alevia.com with code Alex 15 or click the link in the description. Another case in recent years that just keeps getting weirder and weirder. Weirder and weirder, Jennifer, is the 2017 Delphi Indiana child killings. Now here's what's crazy about the Delphi killings. When this first came out that there were these two little girls that were murdered in Delphi, Indiana, I was like, you're joking me. My parents are from Logan's Port, Indiana. This is where my family is from.

This is like the town over. Delphi is like, there might, I don't even know if there's two stoplights in this town. I am so familiar with this town. It is the middle of nowhere. It's just not a town that anything happens in. You drive through it and you forget about it. And so when this came out in the news, I couldn't freaking believe it. The murders of 13 and 14 year old Abby Williams in Libby German. Walk us through what happened the day of these murders. So what happened was these two little girls had a day off from school, and they headed down to the Monon High Bridge, which is a bridge that's very long. It's in this beautiful area, scenic area, and many people go there. And many people went there that day. They were not the only ones on this trail and going on this bridge. And as they walked on this bridge, there was a man who has been called Bridge Guy, who followed them.

who fortunately Libby was astute enough to actually get a video of, and he ordered guys down the hill, excuse me, guys down the hill. And what we know after that is they never came home. And that caused the police in Delphi as well as citizenry to begin searching for them. Unfortunately, this was in the afternoon, and it wasn't until the next day in the morning that they were discovered by citizen searchers. And they were discovered with their necks slid open with a knife and covered in some branches. And on the property, on the private property of a guy named Ron Logan. Logan, according to the FBI, who was called in late, better late than never, they were called in

and did a search warrant about a month after the murders. They strongly believed that Ron Logan had committed these murders. They, in fact, said there was probable cause in this affidavit to believe he committed the murders. Later, there was a split in philosophy on this case. The FBI no longer was involved in this case, and it was run by the local and state police. Yeah, so this is what strange to me. So it took years. This happened in 2017. It took years for the state police to reveal hardly any information to the public. Like, we did not know about how, like what you're telling us, like about how their bodies were found, nothing until 2022. And that is when ISP, Indiana state police, asked the public for information about a social media handle. They were like, here's this

social media handle. Does anybody, has anyone ever interacted with this account or seen it before? And they said that that social media account had been communicating with Libby right before her and Abby were killed. What can you tell us about those communications? Right. So that's the shots account, which was really run by a guy named Keegan Klein, who has since been convicted of multiple counts of child pornography. And so he's done convicted in prison for a long time. But had nothing to do with their murders? That's correct.

That's what we're being told, had nothing to do. The big connection was this. Supposedly, Libby had arranged to meet with shots. And that was the big thing. All of us, to me, to this date, I want to know how this murderer picked Abby and Libby. Was this prearranged? Did he stock them? How did he know that he would have two people to murder? He would have had to been prepared with a knife. He would have had to been prepared with a gun because there was an unspent round found near them.

So this seems so premeditated. And right now, as we all know, Richard Allen is charged. Yeah. So this is where I'm confused. So you have, there's three names here. The guy who owns the property, were killed on, the very young 20-something guy that was communicating with Libby on social media. And then all of the sudden, we go from that guy, the social media guy being involved, to them announcing that they have Richard Allen arrested as the main suspect. So how do all three of these guys relate? Well, they don't really relate at all. They are as unrelatable as the two photos sketches that they put out,

indicating that, you know, this is what the guy looked like. This case out of every case I've been involved in, either as an FBI agent on any task force, and since retirement, it's a hot mess. I was going to say it's a shi show. Yeah, it is. It is. It is. Because nothing makes sense.

It's all over the place. Do you think that they waited too long on the Delphi case to give the public more information that could have helped? Well, I have to say, I don't know if the specifics about how the girls were murdered would have been that helpful, but in a way, now we're seeing it is. Yes. So here's when I say this case gets crazier and crazier. The defense has come out and said that these girls were killed as part of an odinist cult. It was a cult sacrifice to kill these little girls. Do you believe this theory? I don't believe it, but I do believe that if they wouldn't have been forced to resign off this case, which is a whole other thing that's just happened within the last couple of days, that they were on the right track of getting reasonable doubt.

And that's because the prison guards, which I have to point this out, for your audience. So Brian Coburger is, as he should be, at a county jail, He's getting a vegan diet. He's allowed to go to church. He's beautifully groomed for court. And they've even trimmed down those eyebrows. What? I think hoping if the eyebrows don't fit, they must acquit or something.

Because he looks, his hair is all groomed. He looks amazing, right? And then you look at Richard Allen. Richard Allen is being housed. This is almost unheard of. I've been asked for somebody to tell me any other case like this. I don't think they have it. He is in a maximum security prison. This is where you put the worst of the worst offenders who have been convicted. And he's not convicted. It's not what our law allows for,

typically. Typically, pre-conviction, you're held in a jail. Why would they do that? Oh, it's astounding to me. So they've put forth the idea that Carroll County, where this took place, their county facility, didn't have the resources to house him. I find that complete and utter nonsense. They're able to house Brian Coburger in a county facility. There's multiple other counties that could have been considered. He's just going to be sitting in one cell by himself. Yeah, I mean, this town, so Delphi is like maybe an hour and 20 minutes north of Indianapolis. I mean, there's definitely plenty of places. And by the way, he's on solitaire confinement. So he's not even seeing the light of day for about 23 hours a day. And he has lost so much weight. He looks horrible. And what do we know about

this guy, Richard Allen? He was a CVS pharmacy tech, I believe, you know, worked in the pharmacy, did the photos, you know, that sort of thing. He very middle class, absolutely no back. You in terms of any sort of violent crime or crimes. Married with kids? Married. Yes. Married, had a daughter even that was around this age, lived in a nice middle-class house in Delphi.

You know, just your literally your normal average Joe. But he, I want to give you the evidence against it. He himself, just, I believe, a day after this crime was committed, he himself said, I was out there taking a walk too. I was watching fish. I was just hanging out. I go there a lot. And so he puts himself at the scene of the crime.

Then separately from that, there is an unspent round that is found near the kids. And the casing that holds the bullet has markings on it. They're extractor and ejection markings that are caused when a bullet either ejection. because you fire it and then the casing comes out, or if you manually eject it, the whole thing can come out. So ballistics ties him to the case. Yeah, ballistics. But it's a little bit more interesting than that

because for a bullet, you can almost precisely show by the rifling that's inside a barrel and make two bullets say that bullet came from that gun. Well, this is a little bit different because A, when it was ejected, it was done manually, so the markings are going to be light. You know, it doesn't have the force and the power of what would have happened if it were ejected from being shot.

But they've connected that casing to the gun that they recovered from his house because of a search warrant. So in other words, they take that gun and then they manually eject and they show that the markings are similar, if not alike. I've seen these hold up so well in court, but I've never seen a case where it's a manual ejection. Okay, so why in the world, this happened just a couple days ago, Richard Allen's entire defense team says, we're out, we don't want to do this anymore. They drop out of the case. What is up with that?

They didn't drop out. They were forced out. Why? By who? I believe the judge. What does that mean? So it was an in-camera hearing, meaning it's a hearing that's done. with nobody around and you get called in. And in this particular case, there were crime scene photos

that were released. The crime scene photos were released, according to the defense, by one of their friends that they entrusted to look at the photo. He then disseminated it. There's been reports on up to three different people that he gave it to. And then one of those individuals minimally gave it to a podcast. Oh my gosh. They're out. And get this, this is where it gets even crazier. One of the disseminators killed himself. What's a disseminator? One of the people who got the photos killed himself in the middle of the law enforcement questioning. What is your theories on that? I just hate coincidences. I mean, I think that he killed himself related to what he had done. This was a military guy. Because he, you feel like maybe he was

feeling guilty that I just jacked up the case of two children who were murdered. Yeah. So it's just, as you said, it couldn't get crazier. We've got these possible pagan worshippers that have been partially implicated. Now he has no defense and he's still in a lockup facility without being convicted. So what happens with this case? If you're making a bet, what happens with this case? And is this going to be a televised? This will be televised. Oh, good. I don't know.

I don't even know if Richard Allen's going to survive. Why do you say that? Because of the situation. Because he's a child killer and they'll just kill him in prison? No, he's in lockup. They're not going to kill him. But I mean, physically speaking, he's reportedly eating his own papers. He threw, you know, his tablet that he could communicate with his lawyers on.

He has supposedly gone cuckoo. Now, he did admit to killing the girls. This is very important because to me this is the strongest evidence if it really exists. We haven't heard the tapes, but he supposedly told not only his wife, but his mom, he admitted to the crime, right? Well, normally you would think, oh, this is a rock-sallid case. But guess who his guards were? Odinus.

Allowed to wear odinous patches. What is an odinist? What is an odinist cult? So an oldenist cult is basically, eh, I don't want to call him necessarily. a cult because I think a lot of people believe in the god, Odin, who is some Norwegian god. It's an old school pagan type religion. Like the Vikings. Like the Vikings believed in this, right?

Yes. And it's been taken over, if you will, by a lot of white supremacists. Okay. So this is some white supremacist. But these girls were white. Exactly. That's white. It doesn't make any sense.

And then they try to connect it and say, well, but one of them, their parent, dated somebody who was of color and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They try to make some sort of, you know, reasoning. But their biggest reasoning that they try to show is how they were killed, how they were covered up with their, which they're trying to say these sticks make a certain formation, and that on the tree there's a blood sign that's in an F formation, which is a odinist ruin or sign of Odin.

I think the guy just wiped his hands to clean the blood off. Yeah. I think that's what it was. But in any event, it's holding some weight now because now you have the prison guards that are literally have odinist patches on them. Well, is sacrificial child killing a part of this religion? Well, no.

Well, yes and no. I think I've definitely read, and I'm no odinist expert, but I have read that there were sacrifices that were made supposedly, but this is back in the ages and ages ago. Not now, you wouldn't think. But of course, this is the philosophy, right? That they're going from what occurred back in the day to now.

And the defenses who came out and said all of this, this theory. Are they, well, I know they're gone now because they all just left. But, I mean, were they sticking with it or did they try to walk it back at all? Oh, no. They just dropped this book. bomb and walked away. They are sticking with it. And there's a little bit of meat on the bone, girl. There's those patches. So again, they're saying that these guards treated Richard Allen terrible, which would lead him to the confessions. I'm just putting out there what's on the table.

And why would he be eating paper? Because he's lost it. Now, that I agree with. People say, oh, he's faking it. He is not faking it when you look at him. He has had such, he's aged 20 years. His weight loss is impressive. It's terrible. And then if you just look at him, he is a broken man. And who wouldn't be broken? I could take anyone and pluck them out, CBS Pharmacy Tech,

and throw them in a maximum security lockup, and they would possibly lose their mind to. In their paperwork, the defense named the odinus that they believe did the actual killing. Oh, so there's other people that could be involved in this. Oh, yeah. So it's a mess. It's a mess. Where's the best place for somebody that really wants to, like, get caught up on this case and all of the nitty-gritty details? Where should they go? You definitely could go to my Twitter at Coff and Daffer FBI and follow the tweets related to, and I usually say justice for Abby and Libby at the top of them, that will at least get you caught up to where we are now. As far as looking back since the beginning of time, certainly the Murder Sheets podcast,

does a good job of chronicalizing everything that's happened from the very, very, very beginning. And is murder sheets a podcast that specializes in just Indiana true crime? I don't know, but I know they've been on the Delphi case from the beginning. But if you're looking for a more, wow, in-depth, really analysis from the side of the defense, there's a podcast called The Unravelling. and that's where they are specifically only focused on Delphi and unraveling the truth, unraveling what they believe is public corruption,

unraveling everything about odinous, there's a great doctor on there named Dr. Piccato, who's really good at, I think, the psychological analysis of Richard Allen, of who would have committed this crime, blah, blah, blah. The unraveling is good if you want to see the defense side of things. And then on the prosecution side, there's a very little known podcast. His name is FIG, F-I-G, and he is definitely from the prosecution. So if any of your followers really want to dive into Delphi, I would look at all three avenues.

I had a very liberal Uber driver recently who was going on and on about a lot of things that I don't agree with. But she said one thing that made me perk up. She brought up concerns about our city water and how many toxic chemicals are in the drinking water now. She said one of the worst contributors is the toilet paper. I was like, you know what? I have not agreed with anything else that you have said on this ride, but we do agree on this. And that is why I use bum roll toilet paper. Americans go through over 57 pounds of toilet paper every year.

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It's very soft, considering how clean it is. No shredding, very strong. I found that their rolls last me longer than typical roles do, get $3 off your first shipment by going to join bumroll.com with code Alex. Support Made in America companies making better non-toxic products. We can influence the market by choosing to shop cleaner. That's coupon code Alex to get $3 off your first shipment by going to join bumroll.com. Coupon code Alex for $3 off your first shipment by going to join bumroll.com or find the details in the show notes. Okay, so we're hitting gangs. We're hitting rape.

We're hitting sacrificial cult killings. We also got to talk about terrorism. So you're an expert in terrorism. Kevin McCarthy has been warning Americans of potential terrorist sleeper cells in the U.S. after the Hamas massacre in Israel. He says that President Biden's almost non-existent border laws are helping terrorists sneak into the United States at a rapid rate. Is he right? or is he fear-mongering?

He's right. This whole situation at our border, we are so porous and have been so porous for so long. And people forget 9-11. They forget Al-Qaeda. They forget ISIS. They forget Hamas and Hisbalah and all the other named terrorist organizations

that the FBI fights day in and day out for all of these years. It just has gotten quiet because FBI, CIA, all the departments are doing their job. But it's out there. I'm very concerned. I've been very concerned for a long time about it.

I actually did a show with FBI agent named Jerry Williams, where we talked about a terrorist case that I was the case agent on. His name was Fasal Kareem right after 9-11 that tried to sneak in razor blades again on a flight and caught him. But at that time, and this is probably two years ago that I talked to Jerry, I said, our poorest borders have caused the possibility of the influx of even more individuals who hate the U.S. coming here. What is this idea about sleeper cells? What is a sleeper cell? How dangerous is that? So with sleeper cell, they're basically cells, if you will, or groups of individuals who are extremists who want to commit what they call jihad, J. J-I-H-A-D, which is violence against Christians, violence against Americans, Israelis.

I mean, they hate the U.S. And part of their mandate is to annihilate us. That's why our towers were hit, and that's what they live for, Alex. So these are cells of people that take their time, they're well-funded, they get immersed into America, and then they decide to commit a terrorist act. If there are sleeper cells of terrorists laying in wait across the country right now, in your opinion, what types of places or events would be most likely targeted? Types of events would be something like the Super Bowl. Airports are always a huge target.

The Pentagon, the White House, any place that stands for America, anything that an outsider would look into the United States and say, this is the United States. Do you think Americans should be moving out of cities? No, I think that that is when they've won. When you are already adjusting what you do based on terror, they have committed terror. No, but I think we should be vigilant. And what I mean by that is people need to take note of what individuals are doing. for instance, in 9-11, there were all these individuals taking these flight, you know, flying lessons,

but they only wanted to learn how to take off. You know, they didn't finish the lesson, if you will. So we need to be watching for things that are concerning like that. Individuals that have moved into the neighborhood that seem to be having meetings, seem to be having meetings at night, that seem to be not falling in line. As an example, particularly people that are in mosques, that are the good people, you know, good Islamic, peaceful people, when they notice something that they don't think is in line with their beliefs and they see them worshipping there, they need to come forward. So that's what we're talking about is vigilance.

What should someone do if they find themselves in the middle of a terror attack in a public place? Well, the most important thing you can do is obviously remove yourself from that particular place, but part of the problem that happens is panic. And when people panic, people are run over, they hurt each other, they don't know where they're going. Panic is the worst thing. So I would say the number one thing is to mentally just prepare yourself that if you're going as an example to the White House or say on a visit or you're going someplace that

could be targeted in New York City area, just prepare. Prepare yourself mentally. That's what I do. I take note of where the exits are. I take note of, you know, people that are around me. And you can just be prepared. What would you do if something happened? In some of these situations, like if a bomb goes off or if a plane hits your building, there's not much you can do. How do you know if it's better to run or hide? Well, you know it's better to run or hide when you can exit a complete area. When you can't exit, then you're have to hide. Okay. This is something I think about a lot. Just being somebody that's obsessed with true crime, like you hear a lot about different types of attackers and different types of

motivation for why they do what they do. Are there ever instances where it's a good idea to try to get inside of a kidnapper or rapist's head and talk them out of hurting you? No. Okay. I say no, because typical people who attack, rape, they're, you know, resolved to do this, they're going to do this and you igniting their sense of power and their sense of overcoming you is exciting them. So screaming in terror, crying, begging, that's what they're hoping for. Right. So should you respond in a different way? Yeah.

Like I've always thought I would just start being like, tell me about your. mom or something and just see if that would like trigger some kind of childhood trauma and they would stop. I don't know. This is like the crazy things of me like having no idea how I would survive. Like this is what I think like, well, how do I know if I should do something crazy like that? No. You're saying don't do that. I love that you say that because ladies, we are raised to be nice. We are raised to be understanding. We're raised to try to talk people out of situations, to try to communicate, to reach out to them in some sort of empathetic way. This does not work with somebody who is their mission to rape you and to murder you.

So what you can do, you need to scream if you are in a public place. Obviously, if you're home and there's nobody else there, screaming is not going to help. It's only going to ignite their excitement. But if you're in a public place, you really do need to scream. but not because you're going crazy, but because you're sounding an alarm. But what you do need to do is go on the offensive. When I teach self-defense, the whole mantra is fighting dirty, and you need to get them surprised because reaction is slower than action.

So the action that you do, they have to react to it, and it's extremely slow. So what you want to do is grab their head, head butt them, knee them. there's a lot of different techniques, but the growing area and basically putting a situation where no longer are you the defensive victim, you are now the offensive person. You're the offensive survivor. Are you familiar with the toy box killer? No. Okay. So the toy box killer, I believe, killed in New Mexico. He had like a whole little RV set up. It was like a torture chamber, but he would abduct women and rape them. But he was a sadist. So it was all about as much pain doing sexual acts that he can inflict.

I mean, like inserting things into them with spikes on it and things like that. So if they tried to close their legs, you know, they would be shredded. Like horrific things. If you found yourself in a situation like that where they're getting off on your screams and your cries and you're begging, what should your response be in that? Well, again, in that case, you're in an RV. There's nobody that's going to hear your screams. My first question would be, how did you get in the,

RV because I want to say that the number one thing is you cannot go with anyone no matter what. That means jump out of the car. I don't care if it's moving. I mean, it's better if it's slowing down at a stoplight, but that means attacking him if he's the driver. Yes, are you going to get in a wreck? It's going to be way better than what you're going to come across if you go where he's going to take you.

So my number one thing is don't go where they're trying to get you. if you are in that case, all you can do is fight. What are the first things a woman should do if she's been abducted? The number one thing is to remove your chances, your likelihood of being abducted, as we've talked about, right? Don't be alone as much as you can. Obviously, we have to be alone, but you need to have your pepper spray on you whenever you are alone and you're either walking, you're running, you're going to your car after shopping,

and have it on the ready. Have your finger in the slot. A lot of them have pull-ups or they have twist tops. You need to have it ready. Don't be on your cell phone. Don't have an ear pod so you have all your senses about you. And this is going to lower your chances of even getting abducted. But say you are abducted. It is very important to fight. It just so important to fight. You're your last person. Worst case scenario. If you are, end up in the worst case situation, which you're dead. At least, Now they have their DNA all over you under your fingertips and hopefully you save another girl. Well, I was wondering if like if you're in a vehicle with somebody, for example, you're in the trunk of his car or even in the passenger seat and there's no way that you can get out in that moment. While you're sitting there, should you be doing things like picking at your skin and letting it drop on the floor, pulling your hair out, putting on the floor, leaving DNA like that? Oh, definitely. Definitely in terms of leaving breadcums for law enforcement. But you also should be getting out of. that car. What if it's going 80 miles per hour? Hop out? No. Attack the guy driving it. He doesn't

want to die either. Right? He isn't going to want to die. So attack him and then he's going to take measures. If he has a gun on you, imagine trying to drive a car, control an individual, and have a gun. Yeah. So if he's driving and holding a gun to your head, well, he's not really able to hold a under your head very well because he's watching the road and he's driving and he's got the gun that he's trying to keep on your head. So the number one thing I would do is hit his arm as hard as I could quickly because he's not going to be able to react. We do all these games in whether you're in SWAT or whether you're at the FBI Academy to show how slow your reaction is. So an action happens and he's not going to be able to react. So now the gun is gone and then now you attack

him, you grab the wheel, you hit him, and he's going to be fighting to keep that on the road, that's better than going where he's taking you. What should every woman learn in terms of self-defense? Every woman should take a class, but a class that is taught by somebody I think who has been attacked before and somebody that has extensive training in hand-to-hand, but not necessarily karate or jizzitsu, taekwondo, not saying anything negative against those, but those are classes that you have to take multiple times a week for years to get good at. I'm talking about fighting dirty classes. And the other thing you need to do is really get in a mental space at some point, whether it's when you're driving your car, whether it's before you're going to go to bed, where you mentally tell

yourself you are going to be able to attack somebody. You have to have that head space, that you're going to be able to scratch, claw, bite, punch, do whatever you can to get out of that situation. So a big part of it is mentally getting there. I tell you everything. So let me just update you on a little change that I've made in my skincare routine. I have found the game-changing treatments that you need for this glass skin look. And here they are. Combine a vitamin C serum and hyluronic acid serum.

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Find the link in the show notes. You teach people how to shoot like an FBI agent and survive an unexpected assault. What self-defense tools besides firearms do you recommend a one? and have on her. Well, definitely the pepper spray. The pepper spray goes a very far distance, and it's really incapacitating. What about bear spray? Bear spray is great, but if you go by bear spray, it comes in a canister about this bay.

Okay, so it's too huge for your purse. It's too huge. You've got to go with pepper spray, which they're both pepper spray. It's just the amount of OC that's in them, the amount of pepper, if you will, that's in them. So it's just the extremeness of the product, but it still works. What I always do say to is practice with it. Go outside, give it a little hit, and you're going to see, even if you're behind it and you're downwind from it, or I mean, you're upwind from it,

it's still going to get in your nose, your eyes, but you need to know that you can handle that, because it is not easy. At the academy, we get all sprayed up, and it's horrible, and we have to, you know, try to fight and defend ourselves even with that OC spray. So you need to know if you're going to carry it how it works. What is your favorite gun to recommend women carry that are just interested in protection? Okay. So ladies, whatever you do, do not get the gun that your husbands are going to want to give you, which is about this big, and it might even be pink and cute. They are the least, they cannot absorb the recoil. So when you shoot, it kills your hand because they don't have a big in a frame. Second of all, they're inaccurate because of that recoil and because of how they

function, they're just not accurate. You need a bigger gun, like a Glock 17, which is a 9mm. I highly recommend 9mm. The FBI did all sorts of studies right before I left, and they determined a 9mm is the best gun, even for agents to carry. Why? Because they have the least amount of recoil, the biggest amount of firepower, combined with the number of rounds, a gun can hold. So even if you miss the first time, you've got 10, 11, 12, 14, 15 plus times to hit them. And I recommend the Glock 17. It's actually really light. It's got a great frame to absorb.

It's extremely accurate. And it's just a great, great gun. Now, some women might be, Jennifer, that's a big gun for me to care. Yeah, my thing is with Glock's, I had one, and I sold it back to my, I sold it to my dad because I, I just feel like I have the weakest wrists ever. And I just, my, I felt like I couldn't hold it up with just my wrist. I don't know, that's my biggest concern with that. But I guess you just have to practice and get used to it. It does feel like that at first. But I think once you practice it and get used to it, and I also practice what they call dry firing. You know, you make sure, as I said,

you don't have a magazine in it, there's nothing in the weapon, you're pointing it someplace safe, and you just practice that trigger pull, practice manipulating the gun. You cannot carry a gun unless you really practice with it every week. If someone breaks into your house, what is the first thing that you should do? You're dead asleep. Well, if you're dead asleep, hopefully, you know, you've heard them come in before they get too close to you. But I think what you're saying is say you're dead asleep, you're woken to somebody coming in the house. The first thing, you must call 911 and get somebody on their way. So that's number one. Number two, you need to hide. So at that point, I would run. I'd lock the door. So when the husband grabs the baseball bat

and goes downstairs to confront the guy, that's the worst mistake you can make? Yeah, you don't need to be doing that. I mean, if you really truly believe somebody is in your house, now, if you just hear something and it could be whatever, a cat, a squirrel in your attic or something else, that's a different scenario. But if you truly believe, either maybe you have ring camera coverage, or you hear somebody walking through your house, lock yourself in your room, and then beyond the room, I would go to the bathroom, lock myself in there again, and then I would be poised ready with the baseball bat or with the gun, and now you're in, you are in the good situation,

because now they're going to have to kick in two doors to get to you, and you're going to be able to ambush them, because they're not going to know where you are, they kick in that door, and you're there to light them up. What is the deadliest, most common mistake that you have seen victims of violent crime make? Trust. Thinking that somehow, as you said earlier, they can talk their way out of this or this guy really isn't that bad or it's going to be okay. That's the biggest mistake is just really not judging what people are capable of.

You have three kids. How soon did you teach your kids about how to survive violent crime and what did you tell them? Oh my gosh. So my daughter has been through my class at least three or four times. And then we talk about it all the time. I just saw her yesterday and we talked about it again. So when they're little, I mean, when did you first start bringing it up? I took my son Kyle out with the SWAT guys when he was about eight or nine to shoot. And how much do you tell them about things like sexual abuse and shooting and stabbing and all that. So I think there's a big difference between alerting a child to abduction and going into those types of details. So I never went into those types of details other than they will hurt you really bad and to how to avoid abduction. But I also taught it was very important to understand firearms. First of all, because we have so many firearms in our house that you can get a child to understand it, to respect a firearm.

When it ate, they shoot it, and they realize the magnitude of what it can accomplish. So I think a lot of people try to hide them and they never educate them. They don't get them out there and teach them. And that's the most important thing, I believe, is to teach. Education will cause fewer gun accidents. The problem is people don't educate and teach. So a lot of kids listen to this podcast with their parents. And, you know, hopefully probably they weren't listening to the whole first half of this.

But if their parents were to turn on this podcast and go to this exact place, I'm curious to know what advice you told your kids and then what advice you'd have for other kids. If you get kidnapped as a child, what should you do to survive? Well, definitely, we talked about it a little bit already, but leave those breadcrums, whether that's pieces of your hair, whether that's flicking away pieces of your skin, whether that's ripping off the top. top of a fingernail, whatever it might be, you want to leave a bread come. Because sometimes people who abduct children, as we've recently seen, and certainly does happen, they keep children for longer. So because of that, you want to make sure you leave a piece of you behind, you know, touch things. So that's very important to being captured. I would say as a child, it's a little bit different than an adult because oftentimes it's just a whole different reason that they have you.

And so in that way, take every opportunity if you're ever left alone to escape. A lot of times, if you can build the trust of the abductor, they will actually leave you alone. And it's at that point you need to understand what doors are locked, what doors aren't, what you've seen, you know, understanding the layout of the house you're in, and break glass, do whatever it takes to escape. I think a lot of kids are afraid, are afraid to be offensive, if you will. You have to be offensive, especially if you're left alone.

What unsolved true crime case do you want to see solved the most before you die? Maybe the person who attacked me. I would love to see that solved. Now that you're retired, have you started to dive into that at all? I really haven't. I still have a young one at home and am so busy with the kids and then so busy with work and everything I haven't. But I think I'm definitely mentally ready to

a lot more than I was when I was younger. And so it's something I want to do. I just have to figure out exactly how I'm going to go about it, how I'm going to find that time. In your opinion, is America more or less dangerous today than it was in the 90s? It's much more dangerous. It's more dangerous just because of social media

and the ability that individuals have to stalk you and to look and see what you're doing without them, without you even seeing them. So, you know, so often people are stocked on phones, on games. You know, your children just really aren't safe with people from far away being able to get into your kid's bedroom. If a woman wants to start training on how to use a firearm with you, specifically, how can she do that? DM me.

I'm on Twitter, Coffindaffer FBI. Shoot me a DM. If you shoot me a DM, I'll get back. with you and we'll try to put a class together. Now I don't do any classes that aren't very specific and tailored to the individuals for a lot of reasons. But the main reason is I want to have a true understanding of who's going to be in that class. You know, you're putting firearms in the hands of people you don't know. And so definitely love to put together these classes and train to exactly what the individuals want to learn. If someone wants to be a mom one day, but they also want to

be an FBI agent for our younger listeners, do you recommend this career path for her? There's areas within the FBI that I do recommend. For instance, if you get in and you can get on a white color crime squad, typically white color crime are bankers and other professionals that work nine to five. So you can have a much more a situation where you can control your hours. So there are certain facets of the FBI. But if you want a real, what I call a real FBI career, where you're in the thick of it, you have other things you're doing besides your caseload. You know, maybe you want to do SWAT.

Maybe you want to be on the evidence recovery team. Maybe you want to be a blood spatter expert. Whatever you want to do extracurricularly and also have your career putting bad guys in, this is not a profession for somebody who is a female. pregnant, married, it's just so hard. So I think you can do that part at first, maybe, and then break into an easier facet of law enforcement. Does the FBI allow that?

Like if a woman wants to do like the hardcore stuff, like catching, you know, bad guys and everything, like what you were doing, can you say, okay, now that I have kids, I want to go into like the white collar crimes? Yes. The Bureau for the most part, and it's gotten kindler and gentler, I call it, as time has gone on, they're more understanding, certainly.

The age of, you know, the guys just being some, you know, few, but some out there being hardcore, just terrible to women, is, that is going away, and it's going away quickly. So cough and daff for FBI on Twitter, that's where you can follow Jennifer. Jennifer, thank you so much for coming on the spillover. Thank you. It was great. I hope you watch this episode on the Real Alex Clark YouTube channel just because Jennifer is one of the prettiest guests I've ever had. I told my team, I hope I look like her when I grow up,

not to mention how cool she is. I didn't know the female FBI agents could have such good style. Absolutely an icon and inspiration. She's one of my favorite follows on Twitter for minute-by-minute true crime case update. So if you are a murderer, definitely follow her. I'm going to be jumping around. Every time, though, I get into my car now to grocery store to protect my Achilles heels. That being said, don't forget to leave a five-star review to support the show. This was not a controversial episode. I mean, it was educational. It was entertaining. At times, maybe intense or scary. Next week, though, is going to be another highly controversial interview. It is a theology episode, all about heretical teaching and the false prosperity gospel that has taken over American

churches. We'll find. out why my guest believes that pastors like Stephen Ferdick, Michael Todd, and churches like Bethel are leading people away from Christ and how to find a biblically sound church. My guest is an interesting perspective on this because he used to be in the prosperity movement until he broke out of it. I also ask him if he thinks the charismatic movement is biblical, if people being healed right on the spot is real, what's up with people who faint and convulsate church, what he thinks about speaking in tongues, and basically every other question that will get me in a pool full of hot water, as per usual. That brand new episode of The Spillover drops next Thursday at 9 p.m. Pacific, midnight

Eastern, anywhere you get your podcast, and make sure you're subscribed to Real Alex Clark on YouTube to watch the show. I'm Alex Clark, and this is The Spillover. Love you, mean it. Bye.