Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - "I Left A Note, Climbed Out The Window, And Jumped Off The Roof." - Escaping Amish with Lizzie Ens

Episode Date: April 8, 2022

Could you go almost 19 years without shaving your legs, listening to music, using electricity, or having indoor plumbing? Welcome to the WILD world of the Amish. When she was a teenager, Lizzie Ens left her Swartzentruber Amish community, the strictest kind, in the middle of the night and never looked back. Hear all about what it's like growing up Amish, and how Lizzie was able to leave it all behind and start an entirely new life on her own in a world that felt completely foreign.TRY MOINK H...

Today's episode is all about leaving one community in search of another. And as we're about to see, sometimes that process means risking literally everything and even being alone for a while. But it doesn't always have to be that way, at least not for long. Whether you grew up conservative or recently left the left, there is a conference for you where you no longer have to feel alone. So many conservatives have felt alone after being shunned by a community of friends, family, coworkers, teammates. And this is why events like Turning Point USA's Young Women's Leadership Summit exist. From June 2nd to the 4th in Dallas, Texas, you can come and be a part of a community that will accept you for your conservative beliefs. You'll make friends from all over the country, dive into pro-America ideas, and hear from some of the boldest and most fabulous speakers in the conservative movement.

Whether you're a student, a working gal, or even a mom, this event is for you. Trust me. Go to TPSA.com slash YWLS right now and use code Pauplitics to get 25% off your tickets. I cannot wait to see all of your cinnamon roll faces. Growing up, there was always that one kid who threatened to run away. Do you know what I'm talking about? They pack a bag and get on their bike and make it a few blocks before realizing that, you know, maybe actually I miss my snacks or my movies or video games or whatever. Maybe I should get home for dinner. You might have been that kid. Personally, I definitely. I definitely. would run away a few times, you know, when I would get mad. I would pack like a couple items in my Barbie suitcase and I would walk into the backyard.

And then I would turn around. Really, I think it was a detention thing. I just wanted to see my mom or my dad or somebody come after me and be like, Alex, you can't leave. We would never be able to survive without you. But, you know, really, how else was I supposed to get my chicken nugget fix if it wasn't from my parents? I had to go back for that and my chicken noodle soup. Oh, speaking of kids who run away, remember King Curtis from one of my favorite Wife Swap episodes ever? I am leaving, and you can't stop me.

I'm packing my bags. I had a very, very calm day until this, oh, bump in the road comes, and she be sarcastic. Curtis? I won't be coming back until Saturday when you leave. She's going to try to stop me, but she can't run those little high heels. Never see this face again. Literally a reality show icon. Obviously, we can laugh about that,

but there are also kids and teenagers who run away due to very unique and serious circumstances. And their reasoning has nothing to do with not being allowed to eat bacon. I can tell you that. What if it has everything to do with the lifestyle you've been raised in? What if all you've known is a world so stuck in the past that you are stifled of the ability to grow? What if you have zero idea would even have?

happens in the outside world? What if running away means you might never speak to your family and friends ever again? Leaving everything you know under such circumstances is grueling and unimaginable if you've never walked in similar shoes. Today's guest was a teenager when she ran away from her home in Ohio. She was raised in one of the most strict Amish communities in America. The lifestyle was very old fashion. I mean, think Amish, Amish, no electricity or plumbing, and a hierarchy between men and women. You don't express yourself uniquely. You aren't educated like other kids in America. And you are raised to believe that leaving the community means you will go to hell. When our guest finally decided to escape, she literally risked everything. She was born in the

same country as myself and many of you, but her life in an Amish community was world. away from the average American. Now she is a wife, mother, and works with people to help them achieve health and fitness lifestyles. Here to talk about life in an Amish community, including dating, which really I wouldn't even say is dating. It's more like rolling, but I'll have to have her explain that to you. Plus, her escape story that will have you holding your breath is Lizzie ends. Please welcome her to The Spillover. I've actually never met someone. who was raised in the Amish community, from the Amish community, nothing ever. I don't know anyone in my life.

And so you're the first person, Lizzie, that I've ever talked to who's lived that lifestyle. And I know that your community was located in Ohio. And I know that there are tons of different types of Amish communities throughout the country. So based on some of my research, it seems like your former community was or is pretty conservative, like as in not necessarily politically or I don't know, but like you don't use a lot of technology and things like that. So I really want you to just paint the picture for us of what it was like, first of all. Okay, well, first of all, thank you for having me here. And second, you're in for a treat. It's going to be awesome. So to kind of describe what it actually is to grow up there and what that

picture looks like is there's no electronics, there's no indoor plumbing, there's no running water, you know, the women are supposed to wear their hair under a covering 24-7, only if they wash them and dry them, it can be out of the covering. No cutting hair for the women. The guys can cut their hair. Dresses worn all the way down to the ankles all the time. And then we pretty much grow up on a farm and, you know, live off the land as much as we possibly can. And right in a horse and buggy. And the only time that we were allowed to write in a car was if there was an emergency. And you had to go to a doctor or a hospital or something like that.

But other than that, it was horse and buggy. And how many siblings do you have and where do you fall in the birth order? So I have 18 siblings. Holy correct. And so I have a twin sister and we were 9 and 10. So we were like debt center of the entire gang. Is there a name for this type of Amish community that you grew up in that people familiar with the Amish would be like, oh, yeah, that type? Yes.

So where I grew up, the sect that I grew up in is called Swartz and Trooper Amish. And then there's old order Amish, there's new order Amish. And when you get to that level of homage, they're going to be a little bit more modern. They're going to have more things. Like, they're going to have tractors to farm with where I did not, like where I grew up, they didn't. They just used horses. Wow. And so there wasn't even tractors.

But then there's also, like, all the sex that are in between those ones. And there's too many to name. But, yes. So, okay, there's so many things I want to ask. First of all, it sounds like you have a. accent to me. I do. What is that? Do Amish people speak another language? Yes. Okay, could you explain that a little bit? So we speak Pennsylvania Dutch as our first language and it's not like Netherlands Dutch. It's kind of like a combo of German and Swiss. And we learn German in school. So Pennsylvania Dutch is our first language. And then we learn German and English in school. And the reason we learned German and English in school. And the reason we learned German. German is not because we speak it. We don't ever speak it, but are the Bibles and the hymn books

that they sing out of are in German. So we have to learn it because of that. And why was your community so much stricter than other Amish communities? Honestly, it stems way, way back to when the Amish actually originally started. And it's a break off of the Anabaptist. And there's a whole history there, but they came over from Switzerland and Eastern Europe in those areas. And there was a guy that wanted to kind of break off and go Amish. I don't even know how they came up with the name, but that's the direction that he wanted to go. And so they created this community of Amish people, and their way of thinking of how they should live is, you know, less modern. And... But why? Because in their eyes, the way, that's the way that the Bible looked and talked is like they didn't have anything modern back in those days.

So that's the way that they viewed that we should be living and the way that God would want us to live now. And so that's sort of like where it's started. There's a whole lot more history to it than that. But what's funny is the guy that broke off and wanted to start. the Amish church. Eventually he came back and he was like, no, no, no, like this is going too far. I don't want to do this anymore. And the group that I had already transitioned was like, no, we're going to stay here. This is the route that we need to go. And so he didn't continue, but they did. And then, you know, just like in the- He's like, oh, man, this is like crazy. This is what I was thinking. So he, he didn't continue, but, and then from there, it's just a matter of, You know, churches start here and there, and they start making up their own rules. And they're still doing it. They're still having churches that break off because they can't get along. And then they break off and create a new church. And I look back at it. I look at it now and I hear like what's happening, even with even my own siblings that are like breaking off and going to a new church or starting a new church. And I'm like, you guys are crazy. Dude, it sounds kind of like real housewives of Amish country.

Like, I want that reality show. I know there's been like a TLC. What was that? Breaking Amish. Yeah, breaking Amish. Like, I want kind of like a Housewives Amish edition. I don't know. It kind of sounds like there's some good drama there.

Sounds kind of interesting. Yeah, if you get into that. We're not technically as opposed to know what happens within the church there, but I do. In your own words, how is the outside world viewed and is it actually referred to? to as the outside world or does your community use a special term for it? They call them English. Oh, English. Those English people.

If you're not Amish, you're English. Interesting. I wouldn't use that term now, but it's funny. It's kind of funny. They don't have any other way to any other term to use. So they call them English because they speak English and they don't, you know. I was hoping you were going to say something like the others. No.

That would be funny. Okay. So what were you taught about the English? What were you taught about people that didn't live the Amish lifestyle? Were they, were they evil? Were they corrupt? Were they bad? Were they totally fine? It's just not how we live life. Definitely corrupt. You know, it doesn't matter how good of a person they presented to be. They still, you know, thought that Amish people are the only people that can go to heaven because that's the way that God would want you to live. And that's your way. But it's by work. Works. Like you have to be a good person, listen to the rules. And not the rules that God created or anything like that. The rules of the church created. And so that's their view. It's like you have to abide to the rules. So the other thing I'm trying to figure out too is you're talking about no technology at all, not even calculators.

No. So, I mean, when I say technology, I mean even like a blender, like anything that plugs in nothing? Nothing. And think of all the things you can plug into the wall in your house right now. It doesn't exist. Not even a fan. Not even a fan. Because there's no outlets.

There's no electricity. So are you lighting candles to see at night? We weren't, we weren't even allowed to have candles. What do you mean, Lizzie? Oh, what do you do at night? Carosine lights. Oh my gosh. Why are candles bad?

I don't know. Okay. Maybe because the English use that. This is wild. I mean, this is, when I say I've literally never, I just haven't. Like, well, the closest I've ever come to an Amish person in my life was like going to an Amish bakery. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and which, by the way, the best bake goods I've ever had, the best cinnamon roll.

Yes. Everyone knows I live cinnamon rolls. The best cinnamon roll I've ever had is been from an Amish bakery. But the thing that I don't understand is if there's, okay, no technology period, how does news from the outside world get in or does it not get in? So we definitely had like relationships with people that were not Amish. And sometimes they would tell us things. But there's a lot about the world that we don't learn and we don't get to know just because we're not exposed to it.

They do get some newspapers. So they would find some stuff out from there. But in general, like they don't know what's going on politically. They might hear like there. like there's a war happening. Do you vote? Mm-mm. No voting. No voting. That's interesting to me because I just feel like, I mean, why is that reason? I feel like you guys would want to say and have like a really like moral faith-based person in presidential office. But so they don't want anything to do with the government. Oh, okay. Living totally off the grid. I mean, a lot of conservatives would be like, okay, I'm here. Maybe I should be Amish. I've had a lot of people say I want to be Amish. But in reality, it's like you don't because there's a lot underneath the surface that you just don't know. Because there's a lot, you know, I always say like don't be fooled by what's behind the black curtains.

Like there's a lot that goes on behind the black curtains. There's black curtains all in the studio if you're not watching on YouTube. So there is a lot that you just don't know. And I was recently thinking about all, like you just asked about like you don't even have. a blender or a calculator. So I'm thinking like all the things that people don't think about, well, you literally don't have these things. And, you know, those are the things like people don't think about when they're like,

well, I want to live like an Amish person. I'm like, well, you better get ready to get rid of 90% of what you own. Holy crap. I genuinely can't on a mat. I don't think most. That would be an interesting reality show too is to take someone like me who is so far removed from that and be like, you got to live Amish for a while. week and just put cameras on me and just see how I do. Within a few hours, I would be like,

you know, I can't. I can't function. But I guess when it comes to controlling like what you are exposed to and things like that, are you allowed to read books? Like do children read fairy tales? We had a few books. Obviously, we go to school and we have to learn how to read when we go to school. And there are books that we would read. There's some, like, fairy tale books that we would read, but my mom would always, like, check the books and make sure that there's nothing, like, promiscuous in there. There's nothing wrong with that. We should be doing that now anyway. Yeah. But it was, you know, nothing crazy. You know, not, like, reading Harry Potter or anything like that. Of course, yeah. Well, I wasn't allowed to read Harry Potter either. I still haven't read

Harry Potter, and I won't. Me neither. Me neither. But it's my boyfriend's favorite, like, book and movie series of all time. And I have my, I have no desired to read or watch Harry Potter. But I guess what is confusing to me is if you really are limited in the news that you're allowed to consume or hear about, what was even the first headline of breaking news or anything that you remember hearing in your life? 9-11. Talk about that. How did the Amish community react to hearing about 9-11? And what were you told? I don't really know how they reacted because I was still pretty young. But that is the one event that I remember hearing about and they're talking about, you know, the planes flew into Twin Towers. We didn't even know what Twin Towers were.

Like we didn't know anything about that. So it's just like, well, these planes flew into. And it was so foreign. The concept of it felt like it was like in a completely. other part of the world in like in another country or something because you're like New York. Yeah. I know New York, but there's homage that live in certain areas of New York, but it's a completely different area than New York City. Right. And so without TV, do they show you picture books of like places in America? Like have you had you seen pictures of New York before? No. Electricity, we've established none of that. Plumbing. No. So the outhouses were on the outside. like there was no indoor plumbing so you couldn't have bathrooms on the inside. Did you guys interact with other Amish communities that did have things like electricity or plumbing?

Were you guys allowed to talk to each other? Was it very competitive? Like, don't talk to them. Don't even look them in the eye. They're not one of us. Like, how does that work? So we knew people in the old order, they did not have electricity, but they did have more advanced technology where they would use, like, gas powered things to, like, run, like, maybe a generator

I don't even know if it was called a generator. I just remember my oldest sister lived on a farm where there was old order that owned a farm and they farmed there. And the old order family that lived there, to us, it was way more advanced. And so the power that they used was they would run a motor in another building that would power these gas pipes to run like their shop where they were. were building things, but it also would run like their washing machine to do laundry. So the way we did laundry was like run a tiny little engine that had a belt to the washing machine and

and then a ringer. Do you know what a ringer is? Yes. So you had to run all the clothes through that ringer and then hang it out on the on the lines outside to dry. So get rid of your dryer and your washer if you want to go Amish. No thanks. It just sounds to me like so much extra work that's unnecessary. It is.

That's what I'm like. But some technology is, I think, has been so detrimental to us. Like I think about social media and things like that. And I just think it's gotten so out of control for the negative. And then I just think, but there are also some inventions that I just think have really genuinely made life better for us. Thanks. Yeah, that's interesting to me that they want to live without it. Because I'm just like, man, if you would just do one thing, like a dishwasher or something like, oh.

What a time saver. Those are great invention. Oh, that's why they have kids. All the kids have little hands of doors. Now we're getting, now we're getting down to it. Okay, we're understanding it. So, I mean, for someone that's totally ignorant about the Amish, though, is it that the Amish just choose to live, like, very minimal, but they have a lot of money? Or is it more, like, impoverished? It depends. Okay. So we never had a lot of money growing up.

There was 18, 19 kids of us. And then my dad actually died when I was 15, so my mom was left with like 18 kids that were still at home. And so we never had a lot of money. We made it, but like money wasn't, you know, it was always felt like it was scarce. What was the family business? Of farming. Okay. Yeah.

So, but there are some homage people that are very wealthy. And it depends on if they own a business. or I think that in the old order and the new order, they're definitely a lot wealthier. And what is the old order versus new order? Old order and new order, there are small differences in what they're allowed to have. Like I think New Order, they have like rubbers around their buggy wheels, so their buggy is like really quiet. They just have a little bit more stuff. Some Amish people drive cars, right?

Not drive them. They ride in them. Oh, who's the driver? So the old order, so if you were to go to Amish country where I lived in Ohio, you could ask someone like, oh, what are you do for work? I'm a driver for the Amish. So they'll own like 15 passenger vans. It's like an Uber driver specifically. An Amish Uber driver. Oh my gosh. Yes, but it's specifically for Amish people. Could anyone, could anyone just say, hey, I think I just want to join the Amish community and join or what is the process? You have to be born into it. You pretty much have to be born into it.

There's been people that have done it or tried to, and the process is very difficult because they're not open to receiving it very well. And there was this one guy, when I was still there, there was this one guy that tried so hard to join the Amish church. He wanted to get baptized, become a member. And by the time they would get to the point of baptizing him to actually make him a member of the church, no church would. do it. And one of the, I believe that one of the reasons why people, why the church didn't want to do is they know how difficult it is for someone that was not born into it and they had all these things. And they have to get rid of everything. And so, you know, he had a hard time because he's like, I don't understand why I can't have music. So he would be driving. Not even a musical instrument.

Mm-mm. No music at all. Nothing. That's sad. Yeah. So he, and I remember like they would catch him. like driving on a road and he's a horse and buggy and he was listening to music and and they would you know be like you can't have that and so they just knew what's the punishment for something like that is there punishments well so we we did we snuck around with it um and if you got caught with it then they destroy it and then there's some sort of of punishment if you're let's say you're in the dating world and you're in in that age range um you know the they'll take that away from you for a while and say you can't you can't participate in any of the dating stuff so that was part of punishment um other than that that was about it is what's the dating stuff is that like arranged marriages or no you actually get to date each other and go on dates okay let's talk about dating um it's very interesting and it's very weird um why is it weird got stories. She's like, let's talk about it. Let's talk about dating. I did a story about this on

on Instagram one time. I was talking about it and I was like, I was laughing so hard because it's so ridiculous. Oh my gosh, please. So they're only allowed to date at night. Now, there's no premarital sex supposed to. And there's not arranged marriages. However, here's how they approach shit. There may be two or three guys and they are going to ask a very specific guy, do you want to go on a day with Lizzie? And if the guy says yes, now those guys will come and ask me, do you want to go on a date with this guy? I can say yes or I can say no. If I say no, they're going to be like, come on, do it. The like basically like your parents? No, the guys. The other guys. Parents have nothing to do with this. Okay. And if I say yes, they're going to come to our house, my house,

where I live, and the guy that I'm going on a date with spends the night. The other guy is in the bed. With you? With me. Whoa. But you're not allowed to touch either, not allowed to touch each other or have premarital sex. Oh, there's touching. Oh, with on the first date? There's touching. What does that mean? Here's the date. Here's the date. Okay. Guy comes to the house.

And, okay, so they could either just come to your house on a Saturday night and be like, just come up to your room and be like, hey, do you want to go on a date with this guy tonight while I'm sleeping? And if I say yes, okay, here comes the guy who wants to go on this day with me, but he doesn't actually ask me. They ask for him. And so then if I say yes, he'll come up and everybody will hang out for a bit, just sit up and talk and whatever. And then the guys that are not there for the date, they will leave. And the guy that's there for the date will stay there. The lights go out. You're supposed to, you know, date, lay down in bed, and you hug and you kiss and whatever.

And then maybe you fall asleep if it's boring. or maybe you stay up and talk all night. Oh my gosh. This is the most fascinating thing I've ever. Like this is genuinely the most fascinating thing I've ever heard. I'm on the edge of my seat. Like this is crazy. It seems like a made up story.

It does. That's why I have to laugh. So what does, okay, when you say, and you can be totally just brutally honest, okay? So maybe not for little ears. I don't know. Maybe it's fine. But like when you say touching on the first date is allowed but not pre-marital sex, I mean, does that mean like literally any, like anything goes besides sex or like over the clothes touching or what?

So touching means, okay, we may be laying there and the guy and this is a rule. They have to do it. And so, you know, he'll like wrap his arms around you and you're supposed to like wrap his arms around. They're supposed to like roll around for a little bit and then like either kiss you on the cheek or on the lips. And what does it mean is it bad if he only kisses you on the lips or on the cheek and not the lips? I do think that's a thing. If he kisses you on the cheek, it's like, ah, he's not really into it. What is it going on with the rolling?

I don't know. I just, I remember, even when I was there, I was like, this is the stupidest thing that I've ever heard of. Like, this is so dumb. Is it just awkward? And awkward. Like, I only went on a couple dates. And then I actually started dating, dating a guy. And we never did that.

Like, we were just like, no. But as far as premarital sex goes, it happens. But if anybody gets pregnant, now we're in for it. And then what happens? Are you allowed to keep the baby? Mm-hmm. Okay. Although I did hear that I have recently, like since I've left, I have heard in some orders, like they have been, and I don't know which order it is, but I have heard.

that there are some communities that the teenagers, it's so bad, like they're partying and doing all kinds of crazy stuff. So these girls are getting pregnant and they're providing abortions for them. And I'm just like, when did this happen? That's crazy. Okay, wait, partying in the Amish community, were there parties in your community? Because there's no music. Is there alcohol allowed? All of that's not allowed.

Okay, but you sneak in. It's like prohibition. So we're sneaking. it. So I got introduced to music when I was 16. What was the first song you ever heard? I don't know the song. It was country music. I only remember the first movie that I watched. What was that? Do you know the movie Eraser by Arnold Schwarzenegger? No, but I'm sure that people listening do. Yeah. That was hilarious.

And then get this. I thought that whoever dies in a movie like actually dies for real. So I didn't understand the concept of acting. So I was like, well, I was like, well, I was like, well, I If I were an actor, I would never want to be a bad guy because I don't want to die in the movie. Like, why? But then I started noticing that these same actors start showing up in other movies. Wait a minute. That guy, you were dead.

What's going on? So, you know, all of that stuff was done sneaking around. How did the Amish community talk about sex when you were talking, like, who is doing the teaching? Is it these other boys that are your parents? I don't understand. How do you even learn about it or how it works? Well, first of all, there's no sex ed. So you're not learning that in school.

But when my twin and I started dating, the only thing my mom said to us was keep your dress on. Literally, that was it. The idea and what even happens with sex and all of that stuff, none of that was talked about. You only get told that stuff when you're engaged to get married. And who's telling you that? Then the parent, the mom will usually like talk to it. But let's be real. We all know what it is by the time we get to that age.

We grew up on a farm. There's animals. Teenagers find things out and they talk. You're like, Mom, I saw those pigs. I know what happens. I know what happens. You can talk to me. I think it's safe to say the Amish don't know their way around a great first date,

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That's moinkbox.com slash spillover. You struggled with body dysmorphia in your weight during this period of your life before your escape, which we're about to get into. But I want to talk about this because it does play a huge part in your story and where you are now in your life. So when did the body dysmorphia struggles start? And was it because you were being bullied by other kids or your family members? Yeah. So I have a twin sister. And, you know, from the time we were born, I was always.

the bigger one. I was never obese, but because we were twins and I was bigger than she was, I started to get bullied for it by siblings. And that started, you know, probably nine or 10 and then into my teen years. And so that really affected me immensely in my mental health and like towards how I viewed my body and what I started doing to try to do. just get it to shrink and be smaller. It was huge. And I didn't know it at the time, but, you know, it really led into a very poor relationship with my body and then into dieting.

Even when I was still at home, you know, just starving myself and doing everything I can just to try to get my body to be smaller. Do you feel like you were battling anorexia? Probably a little bit. Now, you know, when I'm thinking about it. because I would, you know, work as hard as I can because we're on a farm and just do extra work all the time. And I don't know where I got that concept from. It's like if I work harder, I'll, you know, get smaller.

And then I just would eat less. And it wasn't always just, you know, the smallest amount ever, but I would always try to eat less. And then I really started having health issues even when I was still at home. What were some of the health issues? I had major digestive issues. I think that I probably had anemia because I was always cold and tired. My mom would send me to doctors just because, you know, I couldn't hardly work. So obviously you said the one exception of going into the outside world was when you did get to go to the doctor or something because you had to.

Something was wrong. I guess I assume there was probably Amish doctors in the community or something. But yeah, I mean, not they would have never gone to school. Right. Yeah. For that. So when you would go into the outside world to go to the hospital is something like that happened and you were sick, when you all of a sudden saw computers or television screens

or things like that were you like, what was your reaction? So it's not like we lived in a place where you never saw that stuff. We walked to school three miles each way every single day when we would go to school. So you always saw things through windows. You would see TVs or you'd see people with phones and computers and that stuff. So there was the concept of it was there and we knew that it was there. Using it is a different story because you really don't, unless you actually like get exposed to using it, you don't really know how it actually works. Your brain hasn't really been activated to it.

did they teach you how to speak English in your schooling? Like how did you know how to communicate with doctors in the outside world? Yeah. English was the number one language we had to learn in school. So there had to be a moment where you started thinking maybe there is a life that I'm curious about on the other side of this. Maybe I don't want to be Amish for the rest of my life. Can you walk us through just what that was like when you first started? thinking what if I left?

I don't remember what age I was, but it was pretty young that I felt the stirring. And here's the thing. We had not Amish neighbors that lived right across the yard from us. Like we could see pretty much everything they were doing if they were outside. So I watched them a lot. Amish don't do public display of affection. There's no there's no. there's no hugging and kissing.

There's no I love you. I was never told I love you by my parents. Like there's none of that. Not even behind closed doors. There's no hugs. No, that's supposed to be for like the merry people. And so I would see that and I was really attracted to it.

And I remember thinking one day like if I can't do that like to my kids that I may have one day or my husband, then I don't want to be here. So that was part of it. And then two, I just really didn't understand why the rules that they had were such bad things, you know. Explain that. Rules were what bad things? Why is it bad to drive a car? Why is it bad to live in a house that has electricity?

Why are these things so bad? And the other, you know, thing that I really didn't understand. was why they believed that only Amish people can go to heaven. Like that didn't, I'm like, why would God put this many people in the world? Why would there be this many people in the world? And he would choose only Amish people to go to heaven. That makes no sense. Was the Bible that you guys were reading, like the Bible that, you know, I would read,

like the Bible everybody reads, or was it a condensed, edited Amish version? You know, I'm not 100% sure. I do know that they were in German and they're really hard to understand because, one, it's not your first language. So they don't even understand a lot of the things that they read there. But the other thing is, you know, I don't know how, you know, how much you know about the Bible, but, you know, we would have, we would see a Bible that was not German. and you would read and be like, oh, this sounds way different than when you're reading it in German. So it probably was altered. Yeah.

So then there was, I guess like my mom found out or someone found out that like non-German Bibles are, you know, the words of Jesus in the Bible are read so you can see like what Jesus was saying. And they'd be like, don't read those ones. Like that's, to them it was like, even though they believed in Jesus, like they knew Jesus. Like, they knew Jesus was, like, he's part of the story. But I don't, I still don't understand why they thought, I think because it was red, they were like, someone altered it. And it's not real. And I think that was their viewpoint of it. What ended up being the last straw for you where you said, that's it?

I'm below in this popsicle stand. Oh, gosh. So before that happened, my twin and I, when we were 17, we ran away together for two days. and on the second day, one of our brothers found out where we were staying. And he called the house. We were staying at a cousin's house that had left a few years before then. And he's sharing with my twin. I'm not the soft one.

She's the soft one. And he's sharing with her, like, mom's really not doing well. Because they really, they kind of treat it like death. Like, it's like someone died when you leave. it's really bad for them. When they leave the Amish community, you mean? Yeah. So for the parents and the siblings, like, they really mourn because you're leaving and, you know, you leave and you're like, oh, I may never see my family again or really do anything with them.

So you know if you leave, you are risking never, ever seeing or talking to your family ever again. Yep. But on the other hand, you know, you may know, like you're only going to see them. them once or twice a year or something like that. It really depends. It really varies. Right. And when your brother's calling and saying, you know, mom is not doing well because she's so brokenhearted that you guys left, your twin is saying like, oh, Lizzie, we should go back. This is too terrible. Yeah. So she's like, come pick us up. We can't do this. So we go back and I'm like, I know this is not where I'm supposed to be. I don't want to be here. So the next day, I'm like,

listen, I'm not staying. Like, I will eventually leave again. And she's like, yeah, I know, I will too. I don't want to be here. But two years go by. And in between that time and two years later, when I then finally left, we become members of the church. So when you become a member of the church, it's over the course of the summer, you do

these specific steps within the church where every Sunday that you're at church, you go the preachers leave and they go to in the room and they prepare for the sermon and everything, you follow them and you sit in that room for an hour or so in preparation and they're like teaching you like the rules of the church and everything and then you get baptized. Then you're a member of the church. And once you're a member of the church, now you have to abide to their rules a lot more. And if you do anything that's not within their rules, you're probably going to get in trouble. if it's bad enough, they're going to shun you for a while and then bring you back in.

And so once you're a member, you just know a lot more of what's going on within the church and you see how they start treating people. And I started seeing that. And I was like, I already knew it was bad beforehand. But once I was a member, I was like, this is not okay. Like, first of all, I don't believe in a God that treats people like that. And second, it just didn't feel right. And so I was a member for six month. And then I left after that.

Around that time, did you have a boyfriend? I did. Did he have any influence on your decision to leave at all? No. Well, yes and no. So I always knew that I wanted to leave. I just didn't know how. But the thing is, we never talked about it.

We never talked about leaving. But he lived in New York. I lived in Ohio. Okay. How in the world are you without technology or anything dating a guy? in New York when you're in Ohio, there's no Tinder. Happened. So I had a brother that got married to a girl in New York.

And... Well, how did he meet her? We travel. You travel by like... Oh, you go on vacation? Sometimes. You go to the beach? No, no, no, no.

Vacations like... Oh, probably no, because you would see people with minimal clothes on, right? Oh, yeah. Vacations like going on a Greyhound or Charter Buzz and going to another state and you visit other, you know, members of the church or family members or whatever. So you can't even go into the city and, like, do some shopping or get ice cream or anything? No. Day.

No. So he met her somewhere. I don't know where. But we went to New York for his wedding. And that's where I met the guy that I was then dating when we left. And so, yeah, I lived in Ohio. He lived in New York. How would you talk?

Letters? We wrote letters. That's kind of romantic. And honestly, a lot of people are probably. I like, you know, I almost wish that I had like a love story over letters, you know? We're not married today. Well, at the time. Jimsy is all about nostalgia, Lizzie, don't you know?

They love all that stuff. That's true. That's true. Yeah, we wrote letters and we probably saw each other like ones, maybe twice a year. So we never told. We were both rebels and like the things we like weren't supposed to do. Like what does that mean? But, you know, drinking and listening to music and that kind of stuff.

but we had never talked about leaving. And then I was in Ohio, and when I actually left, it was my turn to deliver a letter to him. And I was at my oldest sister's house at the time. She just had a baby, and so I was there helping her out. And I go to deliver the letter in the mailbox, and there's a note in there from him. And the note says, hey, my sister, her boyfriend and I drove down from New York last night, with a mutual friend of ours that had been up there and we left. And if you want to come, we'll come by and pick you up tonight.

And you knew that he meant we left the Amish community. You want to get in on this. Yeah. So I had a decision to make, do I want to leave that night when they come by? And then he's like, or if you don't want to leave, like, I'll come by another time and we can talk about it. And it took me two seconds to be like, yeah, I'm leaving. So in a way. Wait, what about your twin?

Oh, she's still there. You didn't tell her I'm leaving tonight? No. You were going to leave without her? I didn't tell anybody. Okay. So you kind of have to like run away. So that was noon and I said, I'm leaving.

And I go back down and I have to process this because I'm like, okay, I can't tell anybody that I'm leaving. And so I, um. my brother-in-law actually, like, we had gotten into an argument like two days before. He was trying to tell me off and telling me that I'm being a bad member of the church. And so I became really, really quiet because I'm processing, like, how I'm going to leave. And this is probably the last time I'm going to have, like, dinner with them. But I didn't really care. Like, I just knew this was my way out.

So I wait until it was bedtime. time and we go, I go upstairs as if I was going to bed and then I wait until they go to bed. And I wrote a little note and I just said, you know, this is nothing to do with you, but I'm making a decision to leave. And this is something that I have to do. And when I look back to what I wrote on that note, I don't know everything that I wrote, but when I think about what I wrote, I'm like, I don't even know how I knew to say that. I just knew in my gut, like, This is what I'm feeling and knowing that I need to do has nothing to do with what anybody has ever said or done to me. This is where I need to go.

And so I left a note and then I climbed out the window upstairs to then jump off the roof to leave. So I probably sat on that roof for like 30 minutes just waiting and I'm like, how am I going to like jump off this roof and not break a bone? Like I'm probably going to chum off this roof and break a bone. And then there's going to be a story that I jumped off the roof and I was trying to run away. And now I have a broken leg. And I'm never going to leave. That was running through my mind. But eventually I do jump probably like 30 minutes later and ran away from there.

Did you meet up with this boyfriend of yours? Yeah, he was up the road. I knew he was up there because he had a flashlight. He was like flashing like, I'm here. Okay. So describe the moment getting into the car. and you drive off. Describe everything around you.

Are you guys playing music? Are you like, holy crap, we escaped? What's everyone saying? What's the feeling? You know, someone else asked me that a while ago, and I was like, I've never thought about that. Like, what were we actually feeling? Of course there was music.

Of course we were really happy. But there's so much adrenaline and still fear. Because we also still believe that what we're doing is wrong. And so, you know, you feel kind of like you're let out of the cage, but also there's something in the back of your mind going, what you're doing is very wrong, but I'm just going to enjoy this moment for now. Are there physical barriers that make it hard to walk off the property or the community or however you want to describe it or is it just very easy?

You can just leave. I wouldn't say that it's easy to leave, but, you know, they all live on their own land. So it's not physically that the barriers are there. It's more the mental, emotional stuff. Like if you would even tell anybody that you were going to leave, you probably wouldn't end up leaving. Where was the first place that you guys went that night when you had just escaped? We went back to our friend's house that had left like two years before then and we all knew each other before he had left. So we went back there and we hung out there.

I probably like watched a movie. I don't know what we did. I can't, I literally like can't remember what we did when we got back there. Other than like I'm like, I need to get out of these clothes. So somehow I need to get money that I can buy new clothes because I had $20. That was all I had. And so basically you have to like strip yourself and be like, I got to cut my hair and get new clothes. But I need money to do that.

When you first cut your hair off, and I'm assuming it has. had to have been unbelievably long. It was almost down to like my glutes. And so when you, that first moment of cutting your hair off, did it feel sad to you or like liberating? Liberating. I mean, I think I cut them like almost to my shoulders. And that was a huge, almost like F you to the Amish community, I'm assuming. When you cut your hair, it's like, oh, she's serious.

Yeah, I think there's a lot of rebellion that is happening in those first few steps. It's just like, I'm out and I'm going to do everything I can to change this. And it's really, you know, also the thing about it is like we really don't know what we don't know until we leave. And so, yes, you left, but you still sort of feel like a foreigner in this world. Yeah, did you even know how to flush your toilet? Yeah, I mean, you kind of like learn that. I don't know if I had ever been somewhere. Yeah, probably because we would go to a grocery store sometimes.

Okay. So, I mean, I'm just thinking, I'm trying to figure out what you had never even done. Something as basic as like taking a shower, like in a shower. Yeah, we never, I've never had never had a shower, never shaved. Oh, what was that feeling? Oh my gosh, wait, describe because I know my feeling. When I first shaved my legs, I was in fifth grade, okay? And I remember it was a big deal.

my mom said, finally, you're allowed to shave your legs. And I just all night was rubbing my hand on my leg, like, this is the best thing I've ever felt. So for you as a teenager, that whole time you hadn't shaved jolais and you finally did describe that moment. You're like, whoa. I was 19. What was it like? And it was terrible because your skin, one, we weren't really allowed to use lotion or anything. So your skin's never been exposed to a shaver, so you have shave bumps from shaving.

And you think about your underarms, like if you've never like shaved them, those aren't pretty long. Yeah. And, you know, you kind of need a haircut before you even shave. And so, you know, I probably was shaving for over an hour just trying to like. Oh, my gosh. Hell, literally. Hell. Okay.

So what is your plan that you come up with? Where are you going to live? How are you going to make money? What do you do after? Okay, now I've been out for a day. Now I've got to get seriously. How am I going to survive? Yeah. So amazing the way that those steps were just kind of like roll out in front of me. The guy that we went to his house, he called people that I didn't know, but he knew them. And it was a married couple. And they had left, you know, a few years before very well established. And he's like, hey, you know, a whole bunch of people just left. Would you guys, and I don't know why he chose me, but he did. Would you guys be open to having someone, you know, come live with you guys for a bit until they, you know, get going? And were these people ex-Omish also?

Yeah. And I still don't know why he chose me. I don't, I have no idea why I was the one out of the whole group that left. He was like, would you want to go live with them? And he asked them. And they, you know, I got to meet them. And they were like, yeah, you know, you can live here for $50 a month. That's your rent.

And we'll help you get your social security number because we don't have social security. So we'll help you get that. We'll help you get your driver's license. We'll help you get your car. And once all of that's established, then, you know, you can move out. And I was like, okay. And so I got a job two days after I left as a dishwasher at a restaurant. That was my first job.

You're probably the best dishwasher they ever had. 100%. It's sad. Now I get to use an actual dishwasher, not everything by hand. But anyway. Was it intimidating to you, seeing technology, using technology? Yes. Yes.

So intimidating. And the reality is like, what year was this, can I ask, when you had escaped at 19? So it was in 2004. And, you know, I got that job two days after I left. But the reality is, is. I had never had a job in my life, and I'm 19 years old. And so I have to learn, one, how to be around people that are not Amish, how to speak English. English is terrible.

And then, two, you know, just learning how to be responsible with a job. And the good thing is we're hard workers, so we learn really quickly. But I didn't have a social security number, so they had to pay me on their table until I had that. Ah, okay. So my first paycheck was like $50 and I was like, oh my God, I'm so rich. I go to like a garage sale to like get stuff because garage stealing is something we did as homage people. And I like blow almost a whole thing. And I was like, oh, wait, $50 doesn't go very far here.

I can't support myself and not like blow it on dumb stuff. And that was your rent. Yeah. That was your rent for the month too. What were your initial thoughts of the world after you had escaped? It's been a few months now. You're living in it. You're experiencing it.

You're communicating with the English. What's your impression? Well, first of all, it's freedom. But also, I started to realize how little I knew. And so I did a lot of pretending, even when I was still at home. Because it didn't, I, there was a lot that I didn't agree with. And so I was very good at sneaking around. And so then after I left, I also realized, I was like, I, there is a crap load of stuff that I don't know.

And I started pretending again, like, if people were, if I was having a conversation with someone and I didn't understand what they were saying, instead of saying, like, I don't understand what you're saying. Can you explain? I would just agree. We all do that, Lizzie, even now. No, now I'm like, no, I don't know. what you're saying, can you explain? Because I don't have trouble with that anymore. I don't, I don't care if I'm like, no, I really don't know what you're saying. I want to know why. But that's took time. But it's really, it is a huge culture shock because you start realizing

like, how sheltered you actually were. Had your family or your twin or anybody attempted to get in communication with you at all after you had left? Yeah. So, a few month, I think, after I left, I had not been in communication with any of them. And my mom found out where I was working. So my twin and my mom came, they were down there doing something and they stopped by the restaurant that I was working at. And the owner was there. And, you know, they're like, hey, we want to talk to Lizzie. And I was in the middle of work.

And so the owner was nice and was like, all right, you guys sit down here and you guys can come talk to it. And of course, like, their talking was like trying to convince me to come back. Yeah. So I was in communication then. And then eventually it was long enough where the owner was like, all right, she needs to get back to work. And so they left. And, you know, my mom's just heartbroken. It was like, her kid ran away.

And I'm a mom now. So, like, I get it. I'm like, if my kid would run away, I'd be devastated. So she thinks that she's a problem and that she did something wrong. And it took a few years for me to kind of convince her and say, like, had nothing to do with you. Like, we're adults and we're making a decision here. And this was my decision. You began studying for the GED. And in that process, you sort of began to discover what you were and still are really passionate about. Can you talk about what you became passionate about and why while you were studying?

Yeah. So when I was studying for my GED, I, my teacher was so incredibly helpful and nice. And I'm learning things that I had never been exposed to. Science, algebra, history. And I still don't get algebra, but. I don't either. History, I was kind of like, this doesn't pertain to me. I didn't want, like, it didn't interest me.

Now it does, but back then it didn't. Science really, I got. I was like the understanding of how certain things work. Like that really, really like caught my interest. And then, you know, while I was in studying, I was at work actually one day. And I hear this commercial. And in my thoughts, I'm always thinking, like, what do I want to do? I worked at a nursing home.

And people are like, you'd be a really good nurse. You could go to school and become a nurse. But I didn't feel drawn to it. And I literally like hear this. commercial on TV and I like flip my head around and I look at it and they were talking about nutrition and something about school and I literally like looked at the TV and I was like that's what I'm going to be. That's what I want to do. And that was sort of like the turning point of like one day I'm going to be helping people with that. I just didn't know how I was going to do it.

Because initially you had kind of struggled with weight and body image and things like that growing up and it all just kind of came full circle. Yeah, I was just naturally like, I naturally gravitated towards it and wanting to understand it for myself and then also to help other people. How long did it take for you to feel totally fully acclimated in the English world? I have no idea. I actually, could have been years, could have been months. It was definitely years, not month, because I did, it took me a long time to, you know, feel confident. in who I am. And I would even say even in the last, you know, three to four years, I've grown substantially

because three years ago I would have never talked about this. I would, well, that's not true. I did a local talk one time for a company and I did talk about it then, but it was different. But the way that I talk about it now is more in a form of like, I love talking about it and I'm proud of where I come from. It was an experience and you can learn. from it and it's made me who I am and I'm not ashamed about it anymore and that's what I love about it now is like owning who you are and and allowing that to shine through. Did you end up needing

therapy or anything to deal with the transition that you went through leaving the Amish community? I've never went to therapy specifically but I've had coaches in my life. Not for a long time. I've had people that I was close to that mentored me definitely, and that was really helpful, but not until in the last couple years, actually, I was in a coaching program. And in that program, there was a life coach and a mindset coach. And those two people transformed me and helped me actually, like, uncover things. I didn't even know that I was, like, still kind of hiding. Like what? Things about my paths and like the way that I did things to protect myself because we all do things to protect ourselves.

And why are we doing that? And then, you know, growing from that. And I didn't realize how much I was still doing that and how much that was kind of holding me back from speaking my truth. I don't know if to this day if I would be speaking about my journey and my experience if it wasn't for them in my life. because the one guy told me he was like, you need to talk about your story. You need to talk about your experience because that's where people will connect with you.

And I was like, who's going to connect with an ex-Omish girl? What? You're crazy. And he was right. Have you had ex-Omish people reach out to you? Like, oh my gosh, I thought it was the only one? Yes, but not as much as people that are not actually from the Amish, people that come from other religions.

that I've had very similar experiences with the confinement and the rules and then leaving and their family, you know, disowning them. I've had a lot of people reach out to me about that. How would you describe the Amish? I mean, is it to you a religion? Is it a cult? I think it's a little bit of both. It's definitely religion, but, you know, I think it depends who you talk to. It definitely has cultish aspects.

I'm careful how I throw that word around. Sure. So that's sort of like where I'm like, yes, it's cultish, but I don't know if I would specifically just call it a cult. Yeah. Coltish. Yeah, it's cultish. That's a good way to say it.

How did you meet your now husband? We met when we still lived in Ohio. We went to the same church there and we played Coat volleyball there and that's where we met. So he was Amish too? No. Oh. He grew up all over. He was born in California, lived in Canada for a few years with parents, and then they moved to Ohio.

And that's where we connected. Have you spoken to anyone from your family since leaving? Mm-hmm. Yep. I usually see my mom about once a year. Really? And so does she fly to see you? No, they can't fly.

Oh, that's right. That's right. No flying. So you're going there. You have to go to Ohio. Mm-hmm. When I lived there, I would see her multiple times a year. But now since I'm out here, I usually see her.

I go back about once a year and I make a point to go see her. We actually live in the same city. I live in Scottsdale too. So Lizzie lives in Scottsdale with me. We both live in Arizona now. Oh, yeah, we can become bestsies. I know. We should.

We should hang out outside of the podcast because I just love you. I think you're hilarious. You're very funny. Okay. So here's the other thing. Do you bring your kid around when you go visit your family? Do you let him play with your family, your Amish family members? and stuff and is your kid

who's grown up in this day and age, I mean, technology and everything, is he used to what it's like when he goes to visit Grandma and Grandpa? Or is he like, this is weird, mom. I don't know how old your kid is. Well, he's three. So he doesn't understand it yet. I've taken him every year since

he was born, and my mom loves it. You know, I didn't get pregnant for a long time, and she was always kind of like, when are you going to have kids? Because that's what they do. And I would just laugh at her. But I take him every year that I go in and she loves getting to see him. He doesn't really understand it.

He doesn't really know how to receive it because it's so foreign. And he'll play, you know, with whatever they have around. But as far as like playing with his cousins that are there, he hasn't really done that yet. But I have a sister that also left and she lives in Ohio and her kids are older and they go there all the time. They play together. Like it's not, you know, I think that sometimes it depends on a family, too.

Like my mom, she's the sweetest person ever. And- Did she just miss you so much that she just said, I don't care that you left the Amish community. I want you in my life. Yeah, she will do everything she can to make sure that we still come home to see her. Because, you know, there's been incidents that happened where, you know, my twins' husband was like, You can't ever come visit us again. I was wondering if you talked to your twin, too.

I haven't talked to her in eight or nine years. I'm sorry. But the last time I went to their house, he was like, you can't come here anymore. Our kids are not allowed to see you like this. So she stayed in the Amish community. But when my mom found out that that's what he said, she was devastated because she was like, she doesn't want anything to come in between us actually coming and seeing. her because she's like nobody gets like the church has talked to her about like you know you shouldn't

let your kids come home the way they do all that stuff and she's like the church you know nobody gets to tell me that i can't love my kids they're still my kids and nobody gets to tell me that they can't i can't see them and good for her you know i'm like good for you mom like i'm rooting for you like one day maybe you'll Maybe you'll leave too. Maybe you'll. You try to tell her that. You say, hey, you know, you can come to Arizona. She wouldn't receive it well from me.

Like if I would be like, hey, you need to get out of here. She's, she'd be like. Do you think she's happy there or she just doesn't know anything else? She knows some, she knows other things because, you know, she sees us. Yeah. I have, it's me, a sister of mine to my brother. I was wondering. So your twin stayed in, but it.

You have so many siblings. Did other people leave? Yeah. So I have a sister and two brothers that left. You know, and she sees us. And, you know, I think that she's really proud of, you know, who we've become. And she's always happy to see us, even if she doesn't say that. And so I think part of her is sort of like inspired by it.

And I think that she sees that we're happy and part of her wants that too. And, you know, I hope that one day her eyes can be open to what the church is actually doing to her. Well, let's talk about who you have become because we know you're a wife and you're a mother, but, and not but, and what else have you accomplished that your mom is proud of? Well, I stay out of jail. She's very proud of that. That's a good one for any parent. That was legitimately a fear of hers. I'm sure it was.

Yeah. I mean, if they think like everything's so corrupted stuff, yeah, they probably do think you're just going to end up in jail. I think she's very proud that I actually did become a mom because I think she was like, I don't think it's going to do it. But she also doesn't, they don't understand what I actually do. Which is it has to do with the nutrition stuff that you're right. So explain that. So I'm a personal trainer and I'm a health coach. And so I help people.

people like get healthier. And that's such a foreign concept to them. Like she knows, it's a foreign concept to me. I was saying earlier to somebody, I am naturally thin, but I am the fatest skinny person you will ever meet. My insides are rot. I live off chicken nuggets and Dr. Pepper. You would be appalled if you saw my pantry, Lizzie. One day is probably going to catch up with you. Oh, that's what everybody says. I'm just crossing my fingers. I have the world's greatest metabolism or something. Or that. You have a whole Instagram community of people that go to you for health advice and stuff.

And then you just slowly but surely did start saying like, hey, by the way, I escaped the Amish. Yeah. So talk about that, how you're like, maybe I should like dibble dabble and throw this in there. Because it was because of you doing that, that one of the cute servatives actually, and I wish I could remember her name. But she came across your profile. She sent it to Poplittics, my daily show and said, hey, you have got to have this girl on. the spillover. I want to hear a whole in-depth interview about her leaving the Amish. And so that's why you're here. It's because somebody discovered you. That's amazing. I want to know who that person is.

I know, me too. They'll, they should, you know, share in their, in their five-star review at the end of this, you know, how, if I'm the one, so tell us. I, um, so I started talking about it a little bit last summer. I had no idea what was going to happen. But there was one particular reel that, um, went way viral. And what were you saying in the real? I basically set three things. I said, these are the three things that I did not have when I left. My Social Security number, I don't know what the other two were at the moment.

But that was one and then it was two other ones. And, you know, that went crazy. And I was like, this is nuts. Like, this is crazy. And so from there, I was like, wow, like people really want to talk about. want to learn about this. But what's interesting is now, like I do consultations with people that come to me and they want to work with me. And they're like, oh yeah, you know what's funny? I found you because of your Amish stuff. And then I learned what you actually do. And, you know, they're like,

you're a real person. Like, they're like, I like who you are. And so it's been really fun. And I like it. I like talking about it. What are some misconceptions? as we wrap up about the Amish community that bother you. Or are they all true? No, they're not all true. The one that probably bothers me the most is that everybody has this idea that there's a name Roomspringer that a lot of people are familiar with. I can tell by your face that you're not familiar with.

Never heard of it. The term Roomspringa means when you're 16, 17, 18 in the dating world, like you're allowed to go do parties. do drive a car, dress in non-Amitish clothes. Some Amish orders, they're allowed to do that. Where I'm from, they're not. And so, you know, I've had some things that I've shared, other Amish people that didn't understand where I was coming from.

They doubted your story. They doubt of my story. That would piss me off. Yeah. And so they're like, you're lying. That's not true. And so for a while there, I had to over and over and over be like, This is my story.

This is nothing to do with any other orders of homage. But now I'm at that point where I'm like, I've said it enough. It's fine. Would you say that you are still the same person from before your escape or totally different? Totally different. How so? Well, for one, I'm confident in who I am and I can hold my head up and speak. Yes, girl.

I know what I believe in. Because the person that the women there are very much, what's the word, they're sheltered for one and then submissive. Like that's the word. We're just like, put your head down. You don't have, men have way more say in things than women. And men are kind of the ones that are making the rules of the church. Like the women don't have much say in the rules of the church. So if they come up with a new rule, it's usually a guy.

So, you know, I think that that part of me, I have to be careful that I'm not super dominant over my husband because I have a personality of like taking control. Same. I mean, I'm not married yet, but that's like I talk about that constantly to my current boyfriend. And I'm like, you know, if we get married that I really do want you to be like the head of the house and like leading in that way. But I am going to struggle with that because I am very much like I like to be the boss and tell people what to do and kind of take over. But it's hard sometimes for women, I think, especially mouthy women like me, to let someone else do that, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

So, I mean, I think it's fine, you know, if you have balance with it. But, you know, just understanding that you have a voice that, you know, you don't have to, you know, just put your head down and be quiet about. about everything. Well, I am really, really just awe-inspired by you and impressed and really proud of you for being like, hey, you know what? I'm going to start sharing this part of my story. Because I know for some people you hold on for years and years and years, something like this. And I think by sharing it, not only is it freeing for you, but incredible for other people. And like you said, that's a really good, you know, click-bait thing for you to be like, I'm an ex-almish person. You're my escape story. Also, let me help you get fit. I mean, it's smart.

business work. Let's come on. You're not an idiot. So I think that's great. And you're one of my favorite guests that I've had. I don't ever say that to people in the moment. But I genuinely have enjoyed this conversation. It's been so fun, funny, inspiring, lots of heart. It's great. And what is your Instagram so conservatives can find you and follow you? Yeah. At Lizzie, L-I-C-I-E, and It's E-N-S. E-N-S. So it's two E's. Lizzie ends.

Thank you, Lizzie, for coming on the spillover. Thank you for having me. Adored her, loved her, obsessed with her, want to be her best friend, dead serious. She's like gorgeous. Is she not? If you are listening to this, like the podcast version, you have to go to her Instagram and see what she looks like.

Oh my gosh, 10 out of 10. Stunning. Stunning. And so we have a makeup girl, Ramona, by the way, who's incredible. If you live in the Scottsdale or Phoenix area, you need a makeup artist, you can DM me and I'll give you Ms. Ramona's information

because we love a cute servant of makeup artist. But we have her come in to do my makeup for the spillover episodes and our guests. And Lizzie, even without makeup, just a dime. A dime. And I love that there was just this powerful theme in Lizzie's story of resilience, hope,

and having the courage to change course, even when the odds can feel like they're stacked against you. But, man, she made it work. Didn't she? I freaking love her. If this is the first time that you've ever listened to the spillover and you already can't get enough, if you loved Lizzie's story, there's like what, I don't know what number we're at now, 27, 28, something in there, 20 something episodes of people with amazing jaw-dropping stories that you need to go back and listen to and you need to make sure that you actually hit the subscribe button because then you will have your phone or whatever update automatically when new episodes are spilled. And you better leave a five-star review because not only do I read, all the reviews, but my bosses see them too. And since this podcast is free and not on Patreon or

something, I don't make you pay for it. That's the best way that you can support it. Okay, it's the least you can do. I think. Thank you so much. I love you. New episodes of the spillover come out every Thursday in 9 p.m. Pacific, midnight Eastern on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Or you can watch the episode on the Poplittics YouTube channel like I talked about. You can participate in the live chat when these drop in midnight Eastern. It's super fun. Be there every Thursday or be square. I'm Alex Clark, and this is the spillover. Love you, mean it. Bye.