Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - “I Saw Demons & Met God.” - Ayahuasca & Psychedelics with Mike Cernovich

Episode Date: June 24, 2022

It has become super trendy for people to go on ayahuasca retreats where they experience plant based psychedelic trips meant to treat mental blockages, improve mindfulness, boost mood, or alter behavior. People literally travel from all across the world just to participate in an ayahuasca ritual with a certified shaman and drink a hallucinogenic brew that sends a person into an introspective, dream-like journey. On this philosophical episode of The Spillover, conservative commentator, Mike Cer...

Orange, pink, yellow, seafone green, and ocean blue. All of these bright summery colors are perfect for Turning Point USA's Student Action Summit, July 22nd through 24th in Tampa. It's summer in Florida, so think linen and breezy dresses. And don't forget your swimsuit. See our star-stited lineup of cute servatives you know in love, like President Trump, Congresswoman Lauren Bobert, Senators Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley, Governor Ron DeSantis, and more. Get more info at TPSA.com slash SAS with code Alex. Smoking drugs are cool.

Okay. Since we're talking about trips, usually my idea of a perfect trip involved lots of Instagram-y places, a beach and unlimited supply of incredible food, picture perfect outfits. I mean, hello, you know. I'm not really like a tourist type of traveler either. I want to park my butt on a chair and lay out. read. The goal for me on any trip is to relax, reset, and just have a good time. If I can leave with good memories and the feeling of rejuvenation, then, you know, I'm usually ready at that point to go

back to my normal life. But I have recently come to learn more about a whole other type of trip that some people like to take. It's essentially their version of sipping wine in Santorini, except they travel to places in South Africa where they'll drink a substance called ayahuasca. Rather than relaxing, they want what they call a rebirth. The goal is to get to work at stripping away the old version of themselves so that they can dig into who they are and what things they may have been held back from. I think I'm explaining this right, but we're about to find out more in today's interview. This sort of vacation, aka traveling to another country to take ayahuasca is a major step up from a trip on LSD or shrooms. It is growing in popularity with more and more centers

popping up in more places where people can go and take this drug in a safe environment. Full disclosure, I'm just going to tell you right now, like, lay it all out. I've never done any drug other than smoke pot a few times in my life because I've always been terrified of something going wrong. And then I actually realized in my 20s that I do not like weed at all. So I don't even do that occasionally now. But the purpose of the spillover is to talk to people about experiences or stories that I'm curious about, and maybe you have been too. Today's guest is going to tell us all about his own

trips with ayahuasca and psychedelics, and I know, I know that this may be a little unexpected for you as a topic for me to do. But you know what? I think it's interesting that this guy that we're talking to today is not only a huge conservative, but believes that psychedelics can change your life for the better. If you're unsure about that, don't worry. Me too. We're going to talk all about what they are, how terrifying or beneficial these trips could be. what he believes psychedelics can teach you about demons and his so-called experience meeting God, as well as the conservative argument for the use of psychedelics. I want to preface this by saying that the views depicted in this episode do not reflect the views of Turning Point USA.

We are not. I am not advocating for the use of psychedelics, whether recreationally or medically. If you are interested in taking psychedelics, you should be an adult. You should exercise caution and consult a medical professional. I probably won't ever even do it, but I think it's cool to hear about the experiences of people who have. Now, this groovy dude that we're talking to today, his background includes extensive research on the topic. He takes his time, his steps, make sure everything that he's doing is safe. He's a filmmaker.

His most recent project being the documentary hoaxed all about fake news. He's also one of the most trusted people I follow on Twitter for incredible commentary on not only what's going on in politics, but for Wisdomy. but for wisdom on mindset as well. He's also the author of the book Gorilla Mindset, How to Control Your Thoughts and Emotions, Improve Your Health and Fitness, make more money and live life on your terms. I'm very excited to have my friend, Mike Sernovich, on The Spillover.

For anyone that follows you on Twitter, Cernovich, I think what I love about your persona is you come off as this, I don't give any Fs, I'm going to say what I want, I'm going to call out who I want, You've been on the front lines of so many breaking news stories, which is why I trust you and Jack Posovic more than any, literally anyone else on news. Probably you, Jack and Tucker Carlson are who I go to for perspectives on any and all breaking news in the world. But also what's cool about you, I think, is that you have this whole other side to you. You're a dad, your husband. You're very into mindset and health and wellness. And if you really are a dedicated Cernovich follower, then you know that, okay, Cernovich does drugs. And I mean, when I say, that I mean like you are into psychedelics. You think they're really helpful. And so I really just want you to kind of start from the beginning on how in the world you went down this psychedelic mindset journey. Well, it's a long story, but I like what you said earlier. And I wish more people would do

that, which is so many people feel like you have a thing and that thing is all you can talk about. Right. So lately, I've just been talking about like, I have a peloton and I got it a year ago and I ride my bike and I post my heart rate data and people are like, I don't follow you for cardio. And it's like, well, this is like I live. Like this is social media is supposed to be like I'm a human being. Here's what I'm doing. And if I'm making stuff for my kids or cooking and I think more people should do that because it is harder to caricature someone who's a full human.

And I think that a lot of people if, and this is before I maybe open myself up more, it would be very easy to kind of carcature me as a. scary guy who says offensive things and is very mean. And then you realize, no, that's not really not really the vibe at all. So I think that a lot, if any of your followers who are doing things like that, like, you don't have to do confessions. You know, you have to like spill your guts about your most embarrassing trip to the bathroom or whatever. But you can, you can open up a little bit more of yourself. And people like that. It's good. It shows people that they're not alone. It shows people that you're more of a human being. But I think that also does a really huge service

to conservatives is that we're, we are not this stereotype of the left. Like, we're real people. We have real interests. We live normal lives, you know, have normal interests. You know, we're not just this one D type of person, like what you're saying. And so that's what I love about you is that you share any and everything about your life. And I think everybody, you know, should because we, you know, there's not a lot of good parenting advice. My parents really tried, and I love them and don't blame them for anything. But I'm not going to, I was kind of raised by wolves, right? I had to, I think a lot of people who are Gen X were, and even early millennials were sort of like, okay, go play with your friends, go do whatever you want to do.

And maybe you had like a little bit of discipline, but there wasn't a lot of, hey, sit down. Like, why do you feel that way? Why are you doing that behavior? Is that behavior good? It was all very, you know, judgey, judge you. Because I grew up in a super religious home, evangelical Christian home where like everything was black and white, be everything was about, you know, a sin, not a sin, and that was a worldview. And then there was a lot of things that were, they're very strict on. They were oddly strict and permissive. So they were strict about taboos or things that you just, that were just, they viewed as deep sins. And then there was the permissiveness of, okay, just get on your bike, leave mom and dad alone, go do whatever kind

of trouble you want to get into. So it was that strange sort of religious background. And And that's probably what led me to, you know, the original down like the mindset path was I, you know, we grew up pretty poor, really poor actually. And I didn't know anything about like money or finances or what a credit score was or that if you're in a bad mood, you can like change that bad mood. Right. If you feel a certain way, you can change how you feel. There's just tools that you can learn in your mind to essentially reprogram your mind

in a different way. When I was in middle school, our principal, every single morning on the intercom would say, make it a great day or not, the choice is yours every day. Yeah.

And Trump would tell us kids, no, no liquor, no cigarettes, right? And none of them smoke and none of them alcoholics. So there's a lot to be said

for just continually reinforcing that kind of message. Like no smoking, you know, no cigarettes. So with our kids, we're always like, you're,

you know, that's private. No one should ever see that. You know, just little things like that it reinforced. Because then if there's ever, a situation down the road, like they'll tell you right away because they know. So what you're doing

is you're programming your mind a little bit every day you're reinforcing that message. So it took me, you know, it took me a while to sort of figure out like life, right? But I did figure out a lot of things about life and how you can. I mean, you really can change how you feel. You really can change how you live. You can really change the trajectory of your life. And that's probably why I've done a lot of things that maybe people wouldn't have guessed they could have done or maybe a lot of people find surprising. What are some of those things for the people that have never heard of Sernovich and I have no idea who Mike Sernovich is? Thank God. I'm trying to make it some more and more people find me irrelevant. But the idea that like I went into the White House and told

all the people who are in the White House press briefing room that they didn't care about violence against Trump supporters and that they supported in Tifa. They were like yelling at me in the White house, right? What a bizarre, really, like, Andy Kaufman-esque moment to find it. It's like, it's like, right, record stretch. You might wonder how I ended up here. And I'm being called up by Kristen Walker, Kristen Kellaker or whatever, because I'm telling them the truth in the media room, which they don't do. Or, you know, I reported that I got the confidential records that show that John Conier is a very powerful member of Congress had secretly settled a sexual harassment lawsuit. And he resigned, actually. And it's this kind of a mind-blowing thing.

Like how many people who are journalists for their entire career, you're like, oh, yeah, I broke a story and a member of Congress resigned. And it was a powerful member of Congress, right? You know, not a lot of people. So I find myself in those kind of situations. And really quick as a side thing. Could you talk about just a little bit the part you played in exposing the Epstein story? Yeah.

That's another record scratch. How'd you get in here? So I was the first person to sue to obtain. certain files involving Jeffrey Epstein. And what year was that? 2017, I think. Yeah, long, five, six years. So, Jeffrey. See, this is why I follow,

follow Mike, because he really does break things and is on top of these stories before anyone else. So yeah, Epstein, Mike, if you followed Mike, then you were hearing about this before anyone else. Yeah. And if you follow the case history of that, so I sued Miami Herald then sued, which gave it legitimacy that it previously didn't have, because if it's just me, then, oh, he's Cernovich, she's a bad guy.

Ignore it. And then as we, once we found, we lost in court and then we went up to a higher court. Once we won in court, Jeffrey Upsom was indicted that weekend. So you can say that if it weren't for the Miami Herald, then it weren't for me. Jeffrey Upsich never would have been indicted. I'll take that on my, you know, on my honor. It just wouldn't have happened. But we were bringing so much attention to the issue that they could, they could no longer

ignore it anymore. And again, especially, see, I was in a case with, you know, Mike Sermich and Miami Herald in a lawsuit. What a weird, unexpected bedfellows situation. And that would seem unusual, I think, to people because you take a certain path. That's something that you learn in mindset is you like, you feel like, oh, I can't do that. I'm just a mom or I'm just a dad or I'm just whatever. And the way that you define yourself using the language patterns that you use to define yourself limits you. So you want to define yourself really much more broadly because you're going to grow into that identity. So people just say, I'm just a blank because people have me all the time.

I can't do that. I'm just a, you know, insert. Well, I'm British and the British people are this. Or I'm shy. I'm shy. I'm like, well, I don't know. I mean, why do you think you're shy? Maybe you're just nervous. Guess what? Everybody's nervous. Everybody's shy. Right. Like, oh, you're shy. You know, you're not really like special that you're shy. Everyone who's put in at a certain level is going to be shy relative to that level. So you might be very confident amongst your friends. But then, okay, you need to go give Donald Trump a presentation on something. Well, oh, I'm shy all of a sudden. It's like, no, you're not.

You're afraid. And that's a natural way to feel. And that's okay to be afraid. And here's how you overcome that. So you always want to define yourself or live, you know, based on a really big identity. And that's how I've always tried to live. Like, I'm just here, right? I'm in this humic experience.

So for me, the, like the way I would define myself or the way I think. about myself is, you know, I'm here on an adventure and I'm trying to figure out everything that I possibly can while I'm here. Right. You mean here just in this world. And yeah, exactly. Like, you're in this world. Like, why don't you try that? I don't know. Don't want to try it. Well, okay, you don't have to try that. Obviously, you don't have to try everything. There are things that I probably wouldn't do. But if you just think of it, like, I'm just kind of like here on an adventure. I just got dropped in here, right? Like, I didn't ask to be born. I didn't ask my mom and dad to make me unless, you know, some people believe that you choose your parents and that's a little

that's a little too new age even for me, but, you know, there's people, there's a whole line of thought that you actually choose your parents and there's a certain, I think there's a certain healing to that, which is a lot about what mindset is. The idea is, you know, what if you chose your parents before you were born? If you thought that, then everything that happened to you by your parents that was bad, you wouldn't really see as bad. You would say, oh, I wanted to experience that. Yeah, exactly. That was what I was here for, right?

And I'm not saying I believe that, but that's what mindset really is about reframing things. Well, I wanted my parents. So if my parents were X, Y, and Z and I didn't like that. Yeah, but there was something about my soul that, that, that wanted that or needed that or desired to experience that or, you know, could elevate my consciousness to another level. You know, I don't know. But that's really what mindset is about is reframing everything, reframing the language patterns you use to talk to yourself, to talk to others. And then, of course, ultimately, you know, your identity and how you define yourself.

So then where, okay, where what happened then where you're like, okay, I think I want to like go to a country in South America and trip out? South Africa. That's what I meant. That's what I meant. Close enough. The most people go to. Yeah, but South, South Africa too. The, so I was at home.

I had a really bad autoimmune condition and was bedridden for like a month. And I posted pictures of that with my skin all like. And it was like a cortisone dysregulation thing. So my joints heard I couldn't walk. And I watched a lot of YouTube. This was in like 2011. And I saw a YouTube show at the time. It's called London Real.

And there was two people who were hosting on it. One was Nick Gabriel. And he was talking about how he was just in Peru. and he did ayahuasca and talked about the whole thing that you went through in the whole experience. And he talked about what he saw or what he imagined he saw. And I just thought to myself, you know what? That would be really interesting and try. I put it in the back of my head.

I'm going to, you know, I think I'm going to try that one time. I think that would be like a cool thing to do. And this was, I don't know, maybe 2011 when that happened. And then as you get older, the years all blend, blend in to them, they into themselves. But sometime around there. And then lo and behold, on 20. Twitter, I had a mutual friend who said that he was in town and like, I never reached out to him before. But we ended up hanging out in L.A. And we became like really fast friends. And then next thing

you know, I'm on a plane to South Africa and worn some yurt, some like tent with, you know, with a shaman or whatever you call him and his girlfriend and two other guys. Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah, about to, you know, drink this like kind of ghoulish tea. Okay. So pause. So pause here because, I mean, I know without a doubt, majority of my listeners probably do not know what ayahuasca is. So before we go to your experience and what actually happened when you took ayahuasca, what is ayahuasca? What is the difference between LSD and ayahuasca and shrooms and other psychedelics? So just break down what it is exactly. Sure. And I also note that there's probably a lot of Christians listening to this.

And I've read a lot of orthodox Christians in their take on, pharmacaya and realize that a lot of people consider it sinful. And I like definitely respect that point of view. And I even, I wrestle with it a little bit. We can talk about that, you know, further down the line. Why I do? Because I think it's, I think it's complicated. The, the church fathers, you know, wouldn't think it's complicated. I think it's complicated. So we'll talk about that down the road. But yes, ayahuasca is the combination of two plants that were discovered in the Amazon and you can blend them together. It contains DMT. And then, there's a component in your stomach that breaks down DMT faster.

But so that's why people when they talk about smoking DMT, they smoke it and they have a DMT experience for, say, five to 20 minutes. But when you mix these two components, it doesn't break down in your stomach. So it lasts for hours, right? And people call it a hallucinogen. I don't know.

I don't like that term only because you see things that are clearly real in your mind. And you certainly are, you certainly are encountered. You encounter things that I believe are real. Entities, probably a lot of them are demonic, but you 100% encounter things that are real, but the way it would be described, if you like Google it,

it would say, Oahuasca is the most powerful hallucinogen and it's hallucinogenic substance and it's dimethylptamine mixed with an MAO inhibitor, and because of that, you go into a deep state of hallucination. And then it would be contrasted

with something like LSD, which is a synthetic, you know, quote unquote, there's a word hallucinogen again or psilocybin or what people call mushrooms or shrooms, which is, you know, another form. But a lot of people myself included have taken a colon saying something like psilocybin as like a plant medicine, right? Like, why is it a hallucinogen? So the way I look at it's like this. There are people who are like, oh, we're going to Coachella, I'm going to eat a gram of mushrooms and like rock out. Yeah. And so many people I know have done that. Yeah. And that's the perception of these compounds. Like, I know a lot of my friends my age, oh yeah, I did mushroom. I did shrooms at a fish concert, right? Okay. But is ayahuasca like, like, I mean, shroom is tripping on shrooms is nothing compared to the trip you have on ayahuasca. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah. It's child's play. It's just a different, depending on how much. I mean, you can do what's called a quote unquote heroic dose of mushrooms. where you do experience a lot of the ego death and a lot of the other experience.

You have a lot of the other same experiences. But yeah, if you take a gram of shrooms and you go to Coachella with your friends, you're having fun. You're maybe seeing some visuals. You're feeling a little bit more love. You're hugging people. You're feeling that more connection. But it's a completely different experience between one, ayahuasca.

It's not even comparable. And then two is, if you just like took a gram of shrooms and put on an eye mask in a quiet room in your house and just like what's going to surface, that would be a completely different experience and a super powerful potentially transformative experience for people. So they're used for different ways, but for the most part, LSD shrooms, we're used like socially. Hey, I'm with my friends. You know, we'll eat a cap and a stem or something like that and have a good time or it's like MDMA or something, right? And but using them as a like a medicine is a completely different experience. So someone who, you know, has, because I don't want to lead anyone to do things,

you know, that I don't want to lead anybody astray on their Christian path or whatever religious path that might be on. But if a person has, you know, done that Coachella thing, I don't know, maybe just put on an eye mask and listen to some just very calming, you know, not like music that you know, the words to that you're going to jam out to, but some, you know, chance or something like that, Gregorian chance, whatever, your music is choice, or listen to. to nothing and just see what surfaces. And you're going to find the- That sounds terrifying to me.

Just see what surfaces. I don't, that's a thing, though, Mike. I'm already a nut job. I'm a nut case in general. I'm scared to take any hardcore drugs like that and see what pops out. You're talking about seeing demons. Why would anybody voluntarily say, I want to get high and see demons? Well, and that's the issue is on those smaller doses, you are going to see less.

You're going to just see more of yourself. So if you do, say, a cap and a stem, and, you know, depending on tolerance or whatever. And you put the mask, things are going to surface issues that work. And you just have to sit there with it. But you can take the mask off and go to the bathroom and grab a sandwich and get right back in. So you're not, but on Iahuasca, you're gone. You're in Lala Land.

Yeah. What is it like? I mean, do you lay on the floor for eight hours? I mean, describe at least that part. For the ayahuasca or the mushrooms. For ayahuasca. Oh, okay. is a totally different experience. So if you like you go there, there's different, you know,

traditions, practices that people use. Some people use, you know, different musics, flutes. Other people use more. Like, you know, you could be in a room with like a sonos, right? Or you could be in a room with somebody playing a flute. But everybody kind of like circles around and you're handed this like cup of the only way I can describe it, the taste would be. eat, make a double espresso, and then leave it out for like three days. Ew. Yeah. Yeah.

And then drink it. No, I'm not. I couldn't do it. I'm too much of a picky eater for this drug. You, it was, is horrific. Because you can't add anything to it. You can't sweeten it up. You're not putting in stevia drops.

And it is, it's like two or three day old espresso that you just left out. So you, you know, everybody, you know, depending on the, their ceremonial practice, you, You get you a little cup, you know, a couple ounces down the hatch. And then you sit there and you think that was the stupidest thing that I've ever done in my life. Oh gosh. Why did I just do this? My life was fine. I'm probably going to go crazy and be a test case on losing your mind.

And that was just really dumb. And I can't believe that I did that. And then that's how you feel. for about 20 minutes. And because that's your, you know, the ego they would call the ego, the part of yourself that hold you back. But are you alone in a room by yourself, like you and this shaman or whatever? Or is it like you're with a bunch of strangers?

So I did it with a couple, you know, a couple friends. It's just me and two friends. But yeah, there are people, there are places in Costa Rica that would be more like suited for you where they cater to, they cater to the higher class people. Thank you. Take that as a compliment. You can have an air-conditioned tent, and then you'll go into the big ceremony. There's 50, 60 people there.

Yeah, you better believe I want air conditioning and I want all the bougie stuff and my Dr. Pepper and all that if I'm doing it. They have that. So you, so first you're terrified, you're scared. Just doesn't matter how many times you've done, everybody's afraid, right? And it doesn't matter if you've done 100, because you never really know what you're going to get. Because it could be a bad trip or a good trip? It could be the most terrifying night of your life.

It could be the most beautiful night of your life. It could be both. I've had both in the same time frame. Oh, gosh. Where I'm just screaming like in total abject fear. And then an hour later, but time doesn't really mean anything. I'm in like a state of bliss where, oh, now I finally understand everything. I really, I finally know what life is about and what God is, okay?

So, yeah, so if you set the stage, you go there, you're in your nice, boozy tent. You come out. Everybody's there. There's a roll of toilet paper and then there's a bucket next to you because you're going to do one or two things. You're going to be doing number two a lot. You're going to be puking in a bucket a lot. In front of other people? No, you can go out to the, they have toilets and they take you out and everything.

No, these people that they've been, they have it down, right? Okay. It isn't, it isn't you and five of your friends. Pooping together. stuff on the internet. You drink it and you're like, oh my God. Where, you know, where are we? No, no, there's a whole assistance and everything like that. They have it, they have it down. Like they've never, like they've seen it all before, right? So you go and so you get your tea and drink it and like tastes terrible and you feel like you're about to like gag. It really tastes that bad. When I think of you sitting drinking tea in this tent, you know, the picture of my mind is baby Yoda with his little cup and his little his little slink.

it on. So it really is because you, you go to, especially if you're a man, you go to a vulnerable place that you probably never been before. And especially because under the theory of plant medicine, ayahuasca is they call it mother. It's a feminine. So if you look at different types of medicines, there's a feminine oriented medicine and there's more masculine medicines. And Iowasca will be classified as very feminine. You feel like a female presence there. So with a lot of men, you confront a lot of emotional vulnerability that you've hidden from, even not knowing you're hiding from it, right?

So we'll go, we'll go there. So right, you set the stage. You're just like, why did I do this? Okay, took the shot. This is what I just blew up my life, you know? Because once you drank it, it's in your system. You can't, you couldn't even go to the bathroom and throw it up. It's in there, man.

You're in the... For how long approximately? Yeah. Well, there's about that 20 minutes before you go under. Okay, but then, but once you're, once you're high, how long are you high for on ayahuasca? Well, I don't like the term high you go under. Okay. So, yeah, high is more like a druggie.

Like, I'm high. I feel good. Let's take some MDMA and go watch above and beyond or something, right? Let's go listen to a DJ and on, you know, some MDMA. This is, you go under. So you go, you sit there and you're just thinking like, why did I do this? You're questioning everything you did. And then all of a sudden you're just like, whoosh.

And you fall back onto your little air mattress or whatever you're sleeping on. And then you're just gone. You're in another dimension. Eyes open or closed? You can do it both ways. The better practice is with an eye mask because you just want to go in. You don't want to open your eyes and be like, oh, oh, maybe. and this tree looks really weird, looks like a face, because that's not really the point.

The point isn't to look at this outside world. We look at this outside rule all the time. The point is let you see how deep in yourself you can go. So you go and you're just, you're gone. And if you're a very strong-willed person, you just, like, you freak the, you freak the freak out. You can swear, it's all right. You've lost control now. You have no control and you're not getting out.

you can fight as hard as you want to get out. You're in Valaland. And from there, you know, anything can happen. So for example, one night, I remember I took a cop. Because usually do it like over the course of three nights. So if you go to South Africa or Peru or Costa Rica, you, because you know, you can't be doing this stuff once a month or whatever. You got to like live your life. But so be like three or four nights, right? So and even if you have a quote unquote bad night. You got to go under the next night. Like you can't wimp your way out of it. You have to go. So, you know, one night, you know, I drink the tea and I'm like, why did I do that? This is stupid. You know, all the self-doubt that comes in whenever you do any kind of goal, right?

Because you feel that way when you're like getting in shape. Like, why am I doing this? Like, why I'm at the gym? I'm never going to be like a pro athlete. That's just that whatever, that lower being that we have, the lower being of our consciousness or spirit, whatever you want to call it, really creeps in whenever you're doing something with a certain level of intensity and novelty and tries to talk you out of why start in this business? Most businesses fail, right? You're probably going to fail. Your friends will laugh at you. That comes up with any time you do anything challenging. So you're just in Lala land and M.I start off like one time it started off great for me. I just closed my eyes and I saw all these friends.

fractals and they call it like quote unquote sacred geometry but you know let's try to use blue language like fractals and shapes and colors and i got a body high like i'd never gotten before my life and i thought this i've never felt this good this whatever light show that i'm watching is the most amazing even though i have eyeglasses on is the most this is amazing i'm going to have it a great night holy i'm just wow i feel bad for all because you hear other people throwing up like i feel bad for these poor suckers throwing up because I'm having a great ride. And the next thing you know, it's like, end scene.

And then you're somewhere completely different. So it's very much like when you watch a show or a movie, it's like, end scene. Boom. New scene. New scene. I'm like, the purging is different because it's like, it's like nothing you've ever felt. It's a different feeling than just being sick. is some deep level of throwing up that you can't stop and you can't control.

So then you go like, oh, God, you start the purging. And then that's when you know you're going to get in the work. Because that's the early sign that traumatic memories are going to come up. Yeah. So that's when you're like, okay, the party's over. Great. So then that's the same night. Again, that's just in one night, you might have 15 different scenes.

So then you're like, oh, no. And you're aware enough just for like a second, but early in the night you can't get back out of it. You're just, you fall right back down. You're like, oh, no, this is, oh, God, here you go fall back. And like I would encounter like tormenting entities is the only way like to describe them. You can call them archetypal if you're, you know, more Jungian or Jordan Peterson type. You could say it's that archetypal, you know, because if you see.

everything. It depends on how you see things. If you see things through a Christian or theological perspective, they're like, oh, yeah, I mean, you're seeing demons. This is why they tell you don't use these kind of compounds. And every, you know, in every major Christian religion would say, don't do this kind of stuff. You're seeing like entities. If you're more secular Jungian or something, or, you know, someone like Jordan Peterson who sort of, you know, shrouds the fence a little bit there, you would say like you're encountering like your shadow. You're encountering like the lower self. You're in comedy. What these,

what these demon entities look like? I mean, is it just a scary face? Are they interacting with you? Are they tormenting you? Yeah, it's more like a voice or a presence. You don't really, in my case anyway, didn't see, like I didn't see this ghoulish face like, you know, you see in pictures or whatever.

But just like, it's like somebody like whisper in your ear, it's like, you're never going to go home. You're never going to see your family again. I have you trapped, right? Things like that. And you hear it. It's not. That's why again, like hallucination, you're like, no, this is very real.

And if you think this is like a hallucination, then tell me what reality is. And tell me why reality is real and this isn't. This is real. And that's why if you look it or you read books on people and they try to study it, they were completely flabbergasted. There's a book called DMT, the spirit molecule where they tried to like study this. And they, you know, would intravenously inject a certain amount of DMT in people, and people would come back and be like, okay, I just figured out my life.

And they're like, what do you mean? your blood pressure was fine. Like what, what do you mean? Just figured out your life. Like, no, do like, I totally figured out now. Like, here's five things in my life that I was doing bad. You know, it was living on a bad path and I can't do this anymore and I have to do this. And, oh, and I encountered elves and I encountered insects and anthropopods and all of these other snakes and, you know, everything else. And they're like, okay, well, we don't really know scientifically how to study it. So you know, you like encounter entities that, torment you. So the tormenting at the time when you get out, you understand why you went through it,

because you do come out. The only way I was through is what you heard people say. And the idea is that in life, if I say, this is like the mindset world or any kind of secular coaching or even spiritual counseling, if a pastor or a mindset coach or, you know, book you read said, hey, like, what do you value most in life? You'd be like, I mean, I value my family and I value my husband and I value this and then be like, okay, well, let me see how you spend your time. Okay, you're scrolling IG and you're yelling at your husband or wife and like you're ignoring your kids and you're having them watch TV, you know? So when you go through in my case, you know, I was told like you're going to die. You're never coming back. And I believe that with all my heart. I believe that I'd

died that I no longer existed and that I would never come back to this world. And I just was like crying. Like I don't have no, no, I have stuff to do still. I have more to do and you're like begging and pleading with whatever God, the universe, the tormentors, whatever you want to call it. And it feels emotionally by far the most emotional experience I've ever had my life. And I've had, I'm not someone who's hit from emotional work. I'm not someone who goes, oh, real men, don't cry. I don't, you know, you read my stuff. I don't do that bravado.

Right. Like, I'm not. Don't, you know, don't cry too much in front of your girlfriend or wife because, you know, she'll maybe think you're weak. But the idea that you can't have sublime experiences. It is anathema to everything I teach. So this is a deep, it's just a deeply emotional experience where you think, okay, you're gone. You're going to hell. You're going to die and you're going to go to hell and you're never coming back to your family.

And you're never going to see anyone ever again. And you're just like begging like, I want to come back. Like, you know, let me go back. I want to come back. I have more stuff to do. And then insane. And now you're somewhere else. I don't beat around the bush.

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I feel like this sounds like the worst thing that somebody who is struggling with anxiety and depression could do. But I already am anticipating. You would say, no, doing that and subjecting yourself to that is the best thing. Somebody that is struggling with suicidal ideation or anxiety or depression should go through. So could you explain that argument of why or why not going under and taking ayahuasca would be beneficial for someone struggling with those things. Okay. So responsible facilitator would be like, are you on SSRIs or any kind of psychotropic treatment? And if you say, yeah, they would say,

like, I'm sorry that we can't really do this because it's an MIO inhibitor. And there is a, the risk factor for people who are past a certain age, like say past 30 and I've never had a psychotic breakdown, minuscule. But if you've had a psychotic episode, then, you know, they're, they have different ways to help. But, you know, they have different ways to help. but the full on, you know, the full, full, full experience isn't really right for them. But if you're a person who's not on psychotropic medication and other things, then you have a lot of anxiety, then why do you have that? Do you, you know, how do you interrogate that, right?

That's even where smaller amounts of mushrooms can help people. Like, where does this anxiety come from? Well, maybe you were molested as a kid and you repressed it, you know? And you don't even know that. and then you engage with these plant medicines and you go back and say, oh, now I realize, well, like I don't trust people. I didn't realize that it happened. I'd hidden it or I'd hit run from that or I'd repress the memory.

I know the repressed memories are controversial and everything, but there's a sense that you might have something surface. That's why we talk about going under and not getting high because you're going deep within yourself. And then you might say, oh, now I understand why I feel this way. This is why, because I'm afraid of this thing happening again to me. Right. So all of the things that the reason I hide from the world is I'm afraid of this traumatic thing and I'm running from this traumatic thing.

And then you, you're able to surface that. And all of us have a lot of things that we're running from and that we're hiding from that we're not aware of. And I thought all this was like hokey pokey, right? So before all this stuff, I was like, oh, come on, right. I'm not living. I'm not hiding from anything. Like I'm a, you know, I'm a big, you know, tough guy. I don't, I'm not afraid of anything.

And then you realize like there are a lot of the people who are the strongest people in the world are the ones who have built up structure around themselves because of the deep scars. And then when you go on to stuff gets ripped open. And then you realize like, okay, so this is really what's life is about. Here's what I say. Here's what I say matters. Here's what I'm actually doing with my life. Here's the way like I engage with people or here's a way that I treat people that that isn't kind or isn't nice or it doesn't come from a good place or it isn't well-intentioned. and that you're forced to confront all of that in a very visceral way.

Before you took ayahuasca, what would you say your three main focuses were in life? And then after the first time you took ayahuasca, what do you think those three main focuses were? Sure. Sex, money and personal glory, for sure. Get laid, get paid, get jacked. Would be kind of how I would see the world. You know, go to the gym, meet checks, you know, get loot, that kind of deal. And then, you know, it's very, very secular.

But then, you know, after you start to, it's like, it's about love. It's about human connection. It's about helping people. It's about doing things with a good, with a good intention with a pure heart. It's definitely more heart focus instead of, you know, ego, ego focus. And just the way that that, the way it impacts my behavior, for example, is like I, you know, try to help a lot of people whenever I write things, I always think. is helping people in some way, maybe helping people understand a complex political situation

or maybe helping people live a better way. Like I used to fat shame. I used to be kind of, you know, pretty mean person, you know, many years ago. And a little bit of that will come out now and then. Like, if you really come at me, then I'm going to, you know, zoom in on your pictures and find it. Like, this is what I know you're insecure about. And I'm, but I know that that's like wrong.

Whereas before, if you would engage me in conflict, like, I live for. for that. Like, oh, okay, you want to, this is how you want to go. All right. Now, let's do it. So even when I'm engaged in conflict with people, I try to not, I try to deescalate more so. Like, I've apologized to people for things that had happened on Twitter and said, you know, even though it's just Twitter, like I said, a hurtful thing about your kid was ugly or, you know, something like that. Then I really do try to to lead, not try. I mean, I do. And I try to do more things through the work of my heart and do more things with love. And I give a lot more, a lot more circumspect. So if I talk about something like, like ayahuasca, before ayahuasca,

I would just be like, look, if you're a man, like, here's what you got to do. You got to like go to the gym and you got to be hot and you got to like, you know, not let anybody try to put their little hooks in you and tie you down. And you got to realize it's like. Was this before you were married? Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, I did the, the ayahuas. was before we were married. Yeah, but it's like very much, like I saw the life, especially like relationships is very much, um, user be used, you know, they're going to try to take you. They're going to take over your life or you have to be the one control.

So everything was just about like the struggle, right? Very, very competitive. And, you know, to be honest, like a lot of guys need to be a little bit less weak and a little bit stronger, but not to see everything as like transactional, right? Like what can I what can I get out of this? One of my favorite things when you start tweeting about, you know, the problem with young men today and stuff when you go on those tangits and everything with that, which I think a lot of your advice does come from you really doing a lot of this like mental health work and figuring out who you are and everything is why as a wiser older guy who's been there done that like you're explaining to these young guys like you guys don't get it. You do not get it. And when you go on those rants, I think that's one of my favorite things to hear you talk about. about. Well, thanks. Yeah, and that's part of me trying to just lead people on a better path because I don't want to be the guy who says, you know, there's nothing more annoying than rich people who

tell you money doesn't matter. Well, okay, give your money up then, right? Every celebrity at every award show. Right. So I don't want to be the guy who's like, look, here's what I used to do. And now I see that that's bad. Don't do it. I don't want to come from like, that's where the circumspection comes in where I don't want to come to come at the young men with the judgmental. I'm better than you. I'm more moral than you, but just more like, okay, I've seen people go down that path. And like, I've seen where it ends. And if you do that path, there's a season for it. But if you continually try to live that path, that isn't going to take you to where you want to go. So maybe if you're on that path, I'm not going to tell you to change it right now. But maybe,

you know, maybe you ought to think so. Maybe you ought to think that you can change it a little bit. And that's where the circumspection comes in. Even when I talk about stuff like Iowa, I tell people, I'm not telling you to do it. I'm telling you probably shouldn't do it. I'm telling you that it's, I'm all downside. I'm trying to scare you into not doing it. I'm telling you that it could be a sin under your religious tradition, right? That circumspection to where before, if I were just a secular person and I found something I liked, I'd be like, you've got to do this.

You got 100%. You got 100% do this. It's like the greatest thing in the world. But now, instead of being in those absolutes, I always try to think in terms of, I don't know, maybe they have like a different position, or even like what I would tweet stuff, right? I just think like, do I really want to tweet this thing about whatever, single mothers? There's probably single mothers that read me. Is that person going to have a better day because I talk about how there's certain risks associated with people being single mothers, right?

So I don't know. Do I just want to ruin someone's day? She's like struggling and then she reads it. She knows it hard and now she's reading like depressing stats. But then the flip side is, you know, you do want to tell people that, healthy nuclear families are a good thing and that if you're a woman you should really ask yourself is this guy going to be a father then and if he's not then you just you can't yellow it you know so that that's where the message is where i don't want to make people feel bad or diminish when they

read me unless they antagonize me and then that lower form of me resurfaces and i you know i work on that as a daily struggle but it's always about telling people like look you like are you going to be a parent with this person no okay then you got to get out of there, right? You're marrying the mother, like I always tell people, you're marrying the mother of your children. If you just want to be secular and fornicate, hey man, I'm not here to, you know,

I've lived that life. How am I going to judge you if you live that life? But if you're just a secular fornicator, then why would you get this person pregnant? Oh, because you have fun in Vegas together. Oh, because you like pop bottles, right? No, that's just, that's just dumb, right? That's just a stupid thing to do.

So I'm trying to meet people in that way and say, you know, if you're being intimate with someone, then that could be the mother of your children. Do you want her to be the mother of your children? Do you want to like come home to her and spend a lot of time together? I don't know. Maybe not. It's the same thing with women too. That could be your baby daddy.

I don't, you know, maybe don't go after the guy you think is like the coolest, you know, maybe think that through a little bit better too. Would you consider ayahuasca to be a new age thing? that's uh you know because i read a lot of orthodox christian readings and i you know listed a lot of church stuff and they would talk about like ecumenicalism and um you know the idea that you can blend all religions together and why that's heresy and that in you know any of these substances are the i think the catholic church calls it like pharmacare or something it's like p h a r ma k i and they talk about why they think this is sin and they think it's like new agey

know what new age is. A lot of new age is just borrowing stuff from Eastern spiritual traditions that have existed, you know, that billions of people have practiced for, you know, any number of years. But I would say that a lot of people who talk about these substances, maybe, maybe do a disservice because, oh, did I watch for one time? I'm wearing the tie-dye hoodie, right? Every party I'm talking about it. I'm only going to talk about how it's, like, cool and how like monogamy is a joke. And there's all these things that people, it's like a cliche, right?

Anything become a cliche is like the new Christian comes in and out. Everybody's a center and they're wagging the finger a lot of time. And you're like, buddy, I knew you a week ago, right? Maybe wait a couple years before you, before you wag your finger or vegan. I'm a vegan now and you're all, it's like, okay, maybe if you just found this new thing,

maybe like wait a couple years. And then you find you don't really want to wag the finger side, even though it had done the eye, I was like 10 years. Didn't talk about it for like five or six years because I wanted it to really have to be tempered, not just, wow, I did this thing. It's mind-blowing to really work with it and work with what I saw and what I learned. In the 60s, I mean, everyone was taking LSD.

It was this huge cultural phenomenon. Then it seemed to stop. It was like this super taboo subject for several decades. I feel like now it kind of seems like it's. making a comeback in these health and wellness circles, you know, taking ayahuasca, other psychedelics, microdosing shrooms. Why do you think that is? Sure. The, so LSD got a bad rap because the idea was like, oh, so and so went on like a bad trip and lost in mind. And you're like, well, yeah, so and so was 19 and took three tabs and why are 19 years messing around with anything, right?

that but that became part of the ethos where LSD is something you take if you go to a Grateful Dead show. A lot of people have bad trips, but maybe you shouldn't take it. Like my dad told me that my mom took it and had like a really like a psychotic breakdown. So he was like you can do, you know, kind of whatever you want to do. This is when I was later in life. And he said, well, please just never do LSD. And to this day, I've never done LSD except maybe like a microdose when I was in South Africa. but the idea is that, oh, someone's had a bad trip.

These are party drugs. Okay. Well, then people said, I don't know, maybe you have a different experience if you use a smaller dose. So people might take just a very small amount of mushrooms. And then you find out, oh, I'm just looking at the world a little bit differently. I'm just a little bit more creative. I'm a little bit more open. Sort of how I don't drink alcohol at all.

but when I when you you know if you drink alcohol you have like one two and you're like I feel pretty good feel a little bit more social but once you get in those higher amounts that's when things can go awry but a small amount you could just say I'm just a little bit more less bored with these people who are kind of stupid and boring right ask you a personal question do you not drink alcohol because you struggled with it before or because it's just a personal choice no I've gone through various phases where I was like oh I I have would quit. I would not drink every once a month, twice a year I would go a month without drinking. And then the last time I did that, which was like a year and a half ago, I was just like, I don't even want to drink anymore. So it was very much, I was lucky. I never struggled. I liked it. I took more out of wine than it took out of me. That's for sure. My behavior didn't change. But yeah, I would always say, and I always would tell people like twice a year, just take a month. And if you're counting the days when the month is over, then you might want to just look at that. It doesn't mean you're an alcoholic, but you might want to just look at that.

So for me, I was like, oh, okay, it's been like 43 days. Okay, but whatever, you know, I don't even want to drink. So I kind of lost my taste for it. Luckily, luckily, I never struggled with that. Now, food's a different, much, much different matter. But microdosing is the same. So you might, you just, it throws your equilibrium off just a little bit. And then you're like, oh, I never noticed that like, shit.

of color or I never noticed that and you become a little bit more creative so then they're like biohackers or whatever would use a little bit of a amount just sort of be more productive because you are you are smarter that's a hundred microdose with you're definitely smarter well because I just wondered the reason I asked about the alcohol thing is because I was just curious when you talk about ayahuasca you say it's more like a medicine and you talk about it more like this wellness thing as opposed to like you said it's not getting high like those are very very very. very different. So I didn't know if you consider like alcohol and things like pot or cocaine or

whatever and heroin. Like those are all a separate thing. And then ayahuasca would be like a third party totally different. Like I wondered if you thought if someone struggles with addiction and other things, if doing ayahuasca would be a good idea or a bad idea. Sure. A lot of veterans go. And so one of the big charities that we raised over $100,000 for a year ago and as a charity that I support, they do, it's called vets VETSs, and they do, they take veterans who are like, not even necessarily alcoholics, but in many cases, veterans, alcoholics, opioid addicts. They take them down to Mexico. It's all very legal and they do something called Iboga. And Iboga is a approved medical treatment, at least in Mexico. And they go down. So actually people who have addiction issues who use these

plant medicines find themselves not having PTSD as bad anymore. They find themselves, opening up their hearts more they find themselves not being alcoholics anymore not that it's like overnight cure but the opioids especially with iboga is a lot of people have gotten off it so you're absolutely right i think of party drug mdma right um i wouldn't take anything now just because so much fentanyl stuff is tainted yeah exactly yeah but but back back when i would go to nicky beach or whatever yeah you would think like mdma party drug cocaine never my thing but that would be a party drug. That's something you're doing because you want to stay out, party, do whatever.

Alcohol could be both party drug or in my case, I just like to drink wine, wine down, smoke a cigar, eat dinner. It could enhance things. But yeah, there is that. It does sort of wobble there. Whereas Iowa is just pure medicine. You're just, you're not going to have a good time. It's not something you take when you want to have a good time.

Okay. That's good to know. Is there a conservative case for psychedelics? Well, the religious one I'll punt on because I know with the orthodoxy and the theology, not even the theology, but it would be more like what they say, because I have a different perspective. So I would say before I awosca, I didn't believe in God at all. You can't see God. Totally hedonist. Didn't believe in anything.

You know, didn't believe in like committing crimes or whatever, but I didn't particularly think through my actions of the consequences of it or how people might perceive it. I figured out if you got hurt and like emotionally right if like your feelings got hurt then like how's that my problem you know you're an adult your feelings got hurt so I would you know I can call you whatever names on Twitter or make no empathy really yeah and then afterwards I'm like oh I'm sure God is real like 100% God's real what was it about the experience that made you so sure that God was real I mean meeting you know meeting God what wait a minute you feel like you met God while you're on ayahuasca explain. Oh yeah, 100% um both in a feeling and then a visual. So when I was there and I felt this, you know, in other nights too, I knew this is where we belong. This world we're here.

I don't know why we're put here. I don't know what our job is here necessarily. This is not reality. This is where we are right. This is where our souls are right now. And it's our job to work on our souls and figure out why we were here. But Mike, Mike, to just pause you for a second, though, I know that the Christians listening would say, and I would say, too, is that the Bible is very clear about that. Why would you need to take ayahuasca to figure that out? Because, I mean, the Bible talks about how this is all temporary. Like, we're not supposed to be living our life to think of, like, staying here forever. We're all here to honor God. And then we go to heaven. And, you know, our goal is to bring glory to him and then worship him for eternity. So why would taking ayahuasca,

I mean, that just to me that doesn't show anything differently than what we would already know from scripture, right? Well, there's a difference between what you know or believe and what you feel, right? Okay. You could read a book that tells you that love is really what matters. And you think, yeah, love, love is really what matters. We should live in love. And then you fall in love. And there's a night and day difference between being in love or fall in. in love and believing in love. So faith is, because, you know, there's two ways to look at faith. You know, one is if you're the doubting Thomas, you know, Christ had to show him his hands to show him that, no, no, I, you know, I was resurrected. There, that's one way, you know, to God is you

doubt it and then he reveals himself to you. And then there are other people who just believe, but then there's a difference between believing in the thing and then the thing itself. I believe that, love is beautiful. Okay, now I'm in love. And now I feel what love is. That's a completely different experience than believing in the thing itself. And then I know other people would say that they've had transcendent spiritual experiences and they never need to do ayahuasca. And they believe that they talk to God. They're one with God. And I said, great, amazing. That's why I'm not here to tell anybody to do anything because it's not, it's a little legitimately, it's not a cop out like, oh, I'm not here to tell you what you do, but wink, wink, wink, nod, you really should like,

do that's not definitely not the vibe. It's just more that, like, when you, me personally, and I would say this would be true of almost everyone who's experienced ayahuasca in a deep journey, you know that this isn't the real world. And that's why again, calling a hallucinogen as wild, you're like, okay, but this isn't the real world. The real world is, I don't know, I'm not sure, but I know that we came from somewhere else and that we belong somewhere else and we just happen to be here for now.

And then whatever that other thing is could be subject to spirit of debate. Well, you know, so the Bible was right all along. You're one with God, right? Goating to hell isn't, God doesn't send you to hell. You're just in the absence of love. And that's because you choose to not live in love on this world, right? So there is that theological element to it. So for me, I just felt this transcendent.

feeling that, okay, so wherever I am now, speaking of when I'm under, wherever I'm now is the real world. That's reality. This shit world I'm going back into isn't the real world. The shit world I'm going back to, I need to figure out what I'm doing there and why I was put here, but it isn't, it isn't where we belong. It isn't reality. Reality is wherever we came from, and most likely wherever we're going to return to. Okay, but describe, I want to know more about what it was less. when you felt like you met God, was there dialogue?

Oh, yeah. You can just ask anything. So there's a grand, like, narrator. So, and, you know, one scene where, you know, I feel great. Now I feel terrible. Now I'm reliving childhood trauma. Now I'm thinking that I'm dying and seen, oh, there's God. And it was just like a.

Do you see a face? Yeah. It was like a, like, like, father. time or something, it would be like what it would be like what you would imagine a wise old man to be. Probably in whatever tradition or culture you grew up in, that would it be. But it was just like a wise old man, was just sitting there, you know, or kind of less sitting and more like suspended in animation and was just like looking at all these stars and was saying, this isn't how it's supposed to be.

And so I look over because at this point, my mask is off. not with the mask on. The mask is up. And I sit up and I'm like, oh, God, I'm throwing up. And I'm in this like space area that's black and there's all these stars off on horizon.

And there's this elderly, fatherly, time looking man saying, oh, it's not supposed to be this way and kind of shaking his head and disappointment. And then like, okay, well, what is this supposed to be like? You know, what is this male figure? But if it's really God. Don't you think that if it's God that you're talking to, he, he, God would know what things are supposed to be like. Well, sure, but, but that's, he wouldn't be like, how did this happen? Like, he's God, right?

Saying that it's not supposed to be this way. And then your job is an active participant who maybe wants to meet God or learn more would say, well, like, okay, well, why is that God? Right. It'd be like if God showed up to you tonight and he just said, I can't believe. what the world is doing. You wouldn't literally be like, well, how can you literally not believe what the world is doing? You're omniscient. And you would know, you would be like, holy shit, God's next to me. Okay. Well, I mean, tell me, you know, the truth about the UFO files or whatever. Tell me the truth about JFK. You'd be, you know, you'd be asking a thousand questions if you were to encounter. Right. Yes. And then I was, I was like, well, you know, what do you mean? How, like, how's it supposed to be? Like, what's it supposed to be? And then, you know, this God, God or whatever. It was like, well, when I created everyone, everyone was together and everyone was in this one

like ball of light. And then people with their ego and their anger and their vanity decided to fight and now all the little orbs of light are at war with each other. So it wasn't supposed to be this way, though. You're supposed to just be close to each other. You're just supposed to love each other. But instead, you're all in war with each other. So then when I saw the stars, you know, it was like all these little balls.

of light were sort of in conflict and everything was spread out in a state of chaos. And he was saying that everyone was supposed to be a ball of light together. And it made a tremendous amount of sense to me. And that's where I believe we go when we die is, you know, you return to that unison, which is consistent with Christianity. It's consistent with, you know, because we believe like, oh, you're going to worship God for eternity. And to us, that means like you're going to play, you know, instruments and

sing songs, because worship has a certain connotation, but worship could just be the fellowship and the restoration of the original creation where everyone is together in this infinite state of being, which could be understood as a state of fellowship or a state of worship with God. Let me take us on a different connotation where those people say, well, if God is all powerful, why does he need us little rodents to worship him all the time? you know, because there's all these apologetics that would, you know, explain all of that and defend all that. But then to me, it made total sense. Like, no, I mean, we were created this way. We were supposed to be this way. Lucifer fell. There was wars. Angels went one way. Demons went another way.

Now there's a spiritual conflict. And then in the end, we just returned to that original state of being, the being of light, love, connection, eternal connection, which is where we're supposed to be. Did your religious views change before and after going under? Sure. Like it went from just definitely like kind of like you believe in God, how cute, right? Like a Reddit atheist meme to like, oh, yeah, there's God's 100%. It's not even, there's no question that God is real. Now, the, you know, the skeptic in me is always, well, who am I to say what God is real?

And the way I reconcile a lot of that is I don't spend time telling people. people, we can't be gay or whatever. I don't spend any time doing that because I've done enough sin in my life. I just focus on like, I met a God who I believe is the Christian God and I believe the Christian God is the real God. And if other people believe in other stuff, because when you go to these other places, you realize, like, I'm a, you can attest to this. I'm a confident person. In the other world, we are nothing. We are so completely insignificant. We're not even a, a, We're not even a microbe and the infinite. So the idea that I know the one true God and whatever you believe is wrong and you're misguided,

I don't do any of that stuff. Like I believe it's a Christian God. And that was what was revealed to me. And the way I live my life is try to be a better example. Don't always succeed in that. I'm not saying that I'm even close to perfect. But that's how I kind of try to live is live with a little bit more love, lead with a little bit more love, have a little more compassion,

a little more circumspection, be a little bit more decent. to other people, then that's how I would practice my faith. If somebody is thinking, okay, all right, Mike, like I've heard what you have to say, maybe I'm in a place in my life where I am interested in taking ayahuasca. What are just a couple like, hey, this is what you need to know or figure out before you do it or some tips on like how to do it safely or where to go or whatever. Sure, the good news is there are places on in Costa Rica whole retreat centers that are very reputable. because you have to feel, you have to go to reputable one, especially if you're a woman.

Yeah, that's the scary part is there's, because this is becoming so popular, it seems like there is a lot of sketchy stuff too, with places you do not want to go to take this, people that are just trying to make a quick buck off of you, and you're going to have a terrible experience. Bad stuff is happening, and that's why with what happened with LSD might happen with Iowaska now is, yeah, people are telling me there's a place in Tennessee, and it's just some random farm.

No, thanks. I'm not saying you can't do it there, but yeah, people are on Reddit, essentially organizing retreats. And yeah, bad things don't happen. But no, there are places in Costa Rica, Peru, that you can find them on Instagram.

They're very nice centers. It's men and women. It's not some creepy thing. Like, nobody's going to crawl in you or whatever because you have to. What? Yeah, just you can't,

you're going to be, you're completely vulnerable. So you have to know going in. Oh, okay. Whatever happens when I take the medicine is going to happen. Like, there's no,

you're going to get through it. 100%. again, if you're honest and you haven't had these psychotic episodes before and with that should be screened out. But you're like you're going to get through it and it might not be an easy night, but it'll be a meaningful and significant night. And then for me, you know, preparing to go in that really is about like intent. Just why am I doing this? Like my life, you know, like when I went under my life, I thought I actually had it all figured out. And by objective metrics, it's like I did. I had money, you know, the hot, whatever, the things that you aspire for in the secular world.

Like, I had all that. And so I'm going through and I'm just thinking like, why am I doing this? Like, I have everything I need. Like, what's the point of all this? And then for me, the answer was just, well, because I'm afraid to do it. And I want to confront that fear. And I want to find out where that fear comes from. And I want to be fully exposed to that fear.

And that's, so that's what ultimately brought me to do it. but a lot of it's, yeah, just as the intent. Here's, you know, here's my intent. My intent is, like, I feel like a little flat in life, or I feel like I don't have enough love in life, or I feel like I don't treat people right. I feel like I'm alcoholic, or I feel like I'm addicted to opioids, or I feel like I'm, whatever, not living in enough dimension, and then it's about focusing intent. That doesn't mean you're going to get that.

But there, you know, speaking of ayahuasca, there's a great Morgan Freeman video that I see when I spend too much time on reels. And I make fun of people for watching sports, but my Instagram real habit is pretty awful. It's so addicting. Yeah, yeah. But there's a Morgan Freeman one where he said, if you prayed to God for more patience, is God going to give you patience? No, God is going to give you the situation that lets you build patience.

If you pray to God for a way to overcome your fear, is God going to take away your fear? No, God's going to make you afraid. God's going to put you in situations where you feel the deepest fear. and you confront it and then you overcome it. That's the way God is going to work. And it's very much the same situation with the plant medicines. You're going to encounter things you didn't want. You're going to encounter things you never even thought, whatever.

I've seen things. I was like, I didn't even know that that was anywhere. I've never even thought about that. Like, where did this come from? But things like that will surface. And then you confront them because you're on a different timeline, a minute doesn't mean a minute.

right it's the longest night of your life you can think and then of course the wildest thing is when you come out you're out that's some that was there's so many mind-blowing experiences about it but that was another thing where I could have been under before we started this podcast and you wouldn't even know you can talk and have conversation and everything you're just like okay um I just went from being tormented by demons or whatever okay I'm just back okay I'm just back okay I have what a way, okay, I guess I'll have a glass of water or that Dr. Pepper you mentioned. Okay. And you're just, and you're just, you're just, you're fully back.

It is a completely, there's no, there's no hangover. It isn't like you're coming down, you're on the come down from, from Molly or something, where, oh, okay, I feel the come down and look, no, you're just, you're back. And then that usually happens about, usually it's about, it depends on where you start between seven and nine p.m. But let's say you start at eight by about two 30. and 2.30 in the morning to maybe 3.30, you're just back to reality. Any side effects at all when you wake up in the morning? I mean, are you super dehydrated? Do you have a pounding headache? Like, what happens the next day? Mind blowing. You're just back. It's completely, that's one of the, one of the weirder

experiences actually is how you're completely back in reality. And there's no come down. There's no hangover and just, okay, here I am. All right. And then and then the, the real work is now deciding if the messages that you received or the experience you have is going to translate to the real world. It's not just like if you become a Christian or something, a lot of people have very deep emotional experiences, right? A lot of people, they cry, they're weeping, they really feel that connection. But that doesn't last, right? Then it's about consistent practice, right? It's about integrating that and the work. And it's the same thing with with this stuff is you're like, okay, like here's what I learned.

Here's what I took back, but you still have to live your life. It doesn't do the work for you. It shows you the way in a horrific, a truly terrifying manner of experience. And then here you are now, get back to work. This is why you're here. What is your Twitter? Could you spell it and explain for people that don't follow you, why they should follow you what you offer on Twitter compared to other accounts?

Yeah, my Twitter is my last name. spelled C-E-R-N-O-V-I-C-H. And why people should follow me on Twitter as a tricky question, because I feel like I undersell myself more because I've reached a higher level of prominence than maybe that I wanted. But I would say that you're going to see things, I promise on my timeline,

that you're not going to see anywhere else. I can attest to that. Yeah. So it's not just like the hot take of the day. Sometimes I don't even do a hot take on the things of the day that maybe are important. But when you go there, you're going to, and you're going to, you're going to experience the whole, what is he on now? This doesn't even make any sense. Like, why are you following this guy?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, is there any other really big, exciting things that you have coming up this year? You know, any more movies, documentaries, books, anything like that, or you're just doing your dad thing right now? Yeah, well, in keeping with what we talked about, I mean, I have a third child on the way. I taught my five-year-old how to ride a bike. That's, yeah, I do a lot of cardio and I do work stuff and I hang out with my kids and I don't, the grand ambitions I'm not really feeling, but so many other people are in the conservative world and I'm glad because I feel like I don't have to.

I feel like there's less responsibility now because so many other people are doing so much great things. Absolutely. I also think, you know, just are you open to getting some DMs from conservatives? that may have listened to this and said, I totally disagree with this guy. He's a new age cuck. He has no idea what he's talking about. Are you free to debate and talk about this? Or you're like, don't even bother me with that crap. You blocked. Well, I would just say that whatever objection a listener has, I think that I've raised, I'm open to the possibility that you

believe that it's a sin. I'm open to the possibility that you believe you're opening up to demonic influence. Some things are just objectively wrong. The idea that, oh, you're just going to have a bad night, lose your mind because so-and-so did. And it's like, well, yeah, but so-and-so was on psychotropic medications and didn't disclose that, right? So there are things that are you believe, and I'm sympathetic to that, but there are things that are just not true, right? There are things that are just incorrect. And in that case, you know, have fun. You can argue. You can argue with whoever you want. Argue amongst yourselves. Argue in the conservative's Facebook group about it. Exactly. Thank you so much, Cerno, for doing the spillover. This has been

a really fun conversation for me to have so different from any other interview we've done so far. And that's what I love about this show is getting to have these conversations that might make some people in the conservative movement raise their eyebrows. But like, hey, we're always freaking tweeting about and preaching about making memes about how we're open-minded and we're willing to have conversations with people we disagree with. And then when it comes down to it, I feel like sometimes in the conservative movement, everybody like pearl clutches. So, you know, I think this is interesting. Do I think I'm going to do ayahuasca? Probably not. But I still think it's really cool hearing your perspective on it.

And, you know, some cute servants might be like, yeah, I've done it before and I'll do it again or I'm interested in it or who knows. But it's still cool to hear your take. So I really appreciate it. Yeah. And I hope that people just take away the message, which is, hey, if you already have it figured out and you already living with love and you already connected with God, good for you. I'm not telling you to do anything else. I'm just explaining what I went through where I was and where I am now. And if you don't agree with it, there's really nothing to disagree.

It's just where I am. I'm not telling you what to do. I'm probably telling you, don't do that. Talk to your parish first before you even think about this kind of stuff. So if you're mad, you're just mad at my own experience, which wouldn't make any sense to me. Thank you so much, Mike, for coming on. My pleasure. Do you feel like you're tripping?

I kind of feel like I'm tripping. Like, that was crazy. One of my favorite conversations, I, like, honestly, every episode, is so good. And people ask me, like, what's your favorite episode? And it's like, I cannot pick my favorite child. But this is definitely up there just because, oh my gosh. I mean, talk about getting into something that I am so unfamiliar with and learning something new. And look, I'm just going to tell you, I love Mike. Theologically, I really don't agree with him on a lot of stuff, the meeting God stuff. I don't know that I personally agree with him on or think that that was

possible. But maybe you do or maybe you don't. Either way, I really liked, you know, just his whole thought process and mindset on, you know, taking psychedelics, why he thinks they're beneficial, why he thinks they've helped him. All of that was just riveting conversation to me, even if I kind of disagree with him on the religion stuff. But, hey, that's all right. I don't necessarily agree with every single thing that my guests have to say. And I'm sure they don't agree with every single thing that I've ever said, but I adore him. He's always been super cool to me.

I am very, very excited to hear your thoughts on this episode. I already know that a lot of you may be like 100% disagree, but I really do hope that you can appreciate the conversation for what it is. Like I said to Mike, like I just, sometimes I feel like conservatives talk the talk about how we need to be open-minded and listen to other people and we don't really walk the walk. And I really like that the spillover, at least I hope, and I want the spillover to kind of be, really walking the walk in that, so to speak, and just having conversations with people that we don't always have to agree, 110% on, you know, every different iota with, even if they are conservative. So, you know, yeah, I don't think I'm personally going to do psychedelics. First of all, I don't like puking. That's not really fun. So the whole purging the bad stuff part, I don't think would really work out for me. Also, I'd have to confront some wild imagination stuff. And like I said, a lot of you know how my mind works, okay? And that's when I'm totally sober. So can you. you imagine what ayahuasca would do to me? I can't. I would see hamsters the size of King Kong.

I would think that a serial killer was trying to get me, you know, and I do beaches, not jungles. They would definitely lose me in a jungle. But for those of you who are adventurous in a psychedelic sort of way, what did you think? I want you to leave a five-star review on this episode. If for nothing else, just to be like, hey, I really appreciate that Alex and Turning Point USA are facilitating really unique conversations in the conservative movement that I'm not getting on any other podcast and the conversation fascinated with, you know, the conversation fascinated you, even if you're like, but everything else Mike said, I totally disagree. Or Mike has opened my eyes and I'm really interested in looking up and going to South America

and doing this whole ayahuasca trip thing. So either way, I want to hear about your experiences. Don't forget to keep the conversation going in the Kutervatives Facebook group as well. The spillover is back next. Thursday at 9 p.m. Pacific, midnight Eastern on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and you have the option to watch the episodes every week live on the Poplittics YouTube channel and participate in the chat there. I'm Alex Clark, and this is The Spillover. Love you, mean it. Bye.