Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - “I Was Institutionalized Because of Q-Anon.” – Interview with Melissa Lively

Episode Date: December 17, 2021

Imagine being forced into a psychiatric hospital with mandatory medication and no release date. Your public breakdown has gone viral all over the internet, and your husband is threatening to leave you. One minute you were at the peak of your professional career, and now you’ve lost 90% of your business in the lockdowns and have fallen deep into the rabbit hole of some questionable online conspiracy theories. Melissa Lively shares her true story of becoming one of those viral “Karens,” fa...

In March of 2021, a year after the pandemic first started, I decided to do a little weekend trip to New York City with my friend and guest on episode six of The Spillover, Isabel Brown. Now, Isabel had a scheduled event in the city that Monday, and I asked her to tag along after waking up to find that my boyfriend at the time, after not speaking to me for over a week as a passive aggressive way to break up with me, had flown across the country to party in a different. city for St. Patrick's Day without telling me. And I am a very tit for tat type of person. So when I discovered his trip, I thought, okay, two can play this game. And I booked my own trip to New York City for a girl's weekend with Isabel. The first thing that we noticed was how eerily empty the city was. I mean, it was like a total ghost town, no cars in the street or people on the sidewalks. I actually was able to take pictures in the street with no people in the background in New York City. I mean, restaurants weren't allowed to have people inside at all or they were only allowed to have a limited

amount. So they opened outside inside restaurants on the street, the stupidest thing ever, which I still don't understand. And so we ate at those in the cold. But there was one restaurant operating as normal and it even had an in-house DJ. It was conservative owned, surprise, surprise. So we met up with some of our other friends that work in the conservative movement for a fun night out. And we weren't even there, I don't think, for a full half hour before a girl who was completely wasted, came up to our table, started screaming and fighting with us. She was going absolutely bat, you know what crazy, knocking over our wine glasses, pulling the tablecloth off the table, screaming and crying on the floor like a toddler. I mean, it was a full-blown temper tantrum meltdown from a grown woman who was maybe slightly older than me. And you know what she kept screaming about?

I've been locked in my apartment for a year. I haven't been out in a full year. She was having a complete and utter mental breakdown movie style and was carried out flailing by about three bouncers and then just dropped on the sidewalk right outside the restaurant. That woman wasn't the first person to completely snap under the suffocating overreach of big government in the last two years. In July of 2020, in my city of Scottsdale, Arizona, Melissa Lively experienced something similar. Except it didn't happen to her. It was her in a target.

She became a viral social media Karen, covered in USA Today, The Washington Post, and more. Melissa spent countless hours going down various rabbit holes all over the internet about government conspiracies and QAnon at the beginning of the pandemic. just trying to find meaning in the madness of 2020. But ultimately, it ended in her losing her mind in public over a mask display, all while yelling to employees that they were only telling her to calm down because she was a blonde white woman. What happened next, though? After that, elevates the story to a new level and sheds light on a topic that isn't often talked about, the treatment of mental health patients from within American institutions.

This woman's own husband called the police on her. As she kicked and screamed to police that she had special government clearance from the White House, she had no idea that she was headed for institutionalization, like full-on-girl-interrupted style. And if you haven't seen that in 1999 film with Winona Ryder, Angelina Jolene, Brittany Murphy, you have homework to do. Here today to talk about leaving the Q&ON cult and ultimately getting locked up for snapping about being locked down. is Melissa Lively on The Spillover.

One of the most ironic things about your story for me, Melissa, is that you actually worked in PR. And so the number one thing that is a PR crisis person you try to avoid with other people actually happens to you. So walk us through that and elaborate just how successful you were in PR and the types of clients you had and the work that you were doing. Yeah, well, I started my career in television. I was an anchor and reporter. I worked for the CBS Network. I worked in PR for almost 20 years. I'd owned my own firm for 10. I specialize in luxury and lifestyle. So some of the biggest and best brands in the world I've worked with, I mean, from hotel brands to billion dollar developers to restaurants, fashion lines, you name it. I was really, really fortunate to work with some really cool

businesses and brands and really made an incredible career for myself, you know, prior to the pandemic, I was at the height of my career. You know, I was just, you know, flying, you know, on cloud nine and just everything just crumbled, you know, in March. Weren't you CEO of your own PR company? Yes, I've owned my own firm, the Brand Consortium, for 11 years. And, you know, we work with the best of the best. So when you saw that mask display in Target and you decided to take your phone out and film yourself destroying it. I mean, what was honestly going through your mind? Well, I had been sort of posting, you know, a lot of my thoughts and feelings and experiences in the pandemic, you know, for a while. You know, I am known as, you know, a very influential

voice in the community and in the business world. And, you know, when I saw things start to go sideways, that we didn't really understand. We didn't have a good explanation for, you know, I had clients that were concerned, you know, business owners that were concerned, influential people in the community, that were concerned with what was happening, that things weren't adding up. Nobody was speaking out about it and nobody was willing, you know, to come forward and say, this isn't right. So I sort of stepped into that role early in the pandemic. And, you know, I have a, I have a, I have a, a certain genesee qua, you know, about, about, you know, who I am and, you know, a little bit of a flippant attitude, you know, that's funny and fun. And so, you know, I kind of took a dose of

humor to what I was posting and saying and doing. And people were very entertained. I mean, I guess you could call me, I'm probably one of the elder millennial. That's what I say, too. But, you know, so I don't really consider myself an influencer. But that's what I do. Like, that's how I make a living. I influence. I represent brands. I tell people, it's cool, you know, I set trends. And so, you know, when I started to talk about what I was seeing, you know, and what was concerning, you know, from the government level and everything else, like people were a little bit taken aback and they were like, wow, I, you know, didn't expect that from you, but I am listening and people were paying attention. So I think it really started,

you know, just sort of posting on social media when the stuff that I was posting sort of took a turn. Had you ever posted kind of controversial or political content ever before? Was the pandemic the first time your followers ever saw that from you? Never, never. You know, it's really my job, you know, as a publicist, to appeal to a lot of different audiences. You know, I, like I said, I work with luxury brands and affluent audiences. So I appeal to everybody, every culture, every type of background. And so, no, I had really not done a whole lot of political outreach outside of things. things that were, you know, impactful in my own community, you know, making sure that our, our police are well funded, that our nonprofits are supported, things like that. Nothing, you know, to the political landscape that we experience now. Right. And so when you saw the mask display and you're like, okay, I got to just show just the insanity of this, were you planning on, like, I'm going to just go ape on this? Or did it just happen, like, in the moment, like you were just

showing how insane this is. Like, why are they selling masks? They're forcing us to do this. And then all of a sudden, you're just like, you know what, screw it? And then just started knocking stuff over. I mean, how planned was it for you? It was not planned. It was not, no, it was not planned at all.

But it happened on the 4th of July. Oh, no. Which, you know, I, normally my husband and I spent quite a bit of time in Europe over the summer. And, you know, that was just the icing on the cake of everything else, you know, just being taken away from me. You know, I had by then, this was July, I had already lost 90% of my business. You know, I'd been locked inside. Why had you lost so much of your business already? Because so many of the businesses and brands that I work with were the ones that were immediately impacted by lockdown. So anything that was consumer facing, hotels, restaurants, entertainment, events, anything really shopping, lifestyle oriented. When the word came that you have to shut down your business. and not operate, you know, immediately, you know, my clients were like, well, we're not going to be open. So we can't, why would we have an expensive PR firm on retainer right now? So, you know, my income, you know, stopped. And there was no, you know, what was the most frightening for me,

you know, at the beginning of the pandemic was that there was never a clear off ramp for where any of this ended. And so, you know, I brought that, you know, example up. And, and nobody, you know, hadn't had an answer for it, you know. And so I, you know, I was still working on a few little things, but, you know, we at the same time, I was also petrified. I mean, if you remember at the beginning of the pandemic, you know, I am a total germaphobe. You know, I work in public relations. I deal with, you know, dozens and dozens of people every day. I run events. I run parties. Like, you know, I'm used to kissing everybody on the cheek and giving hugs and shaking hands. And so, you know, I've always been, you know, a little bit of conscientious about germs.

I get, you know, would get sync once a year, you know, but have a great immune system because of all of that. But, you know, when they're at the beginning, when you're seeing pictures of people keeling over on the sidewalk in Wuhan, supposedly, you know, that freaked me out. And I was like, you know, I told my husband, I'm like, cancer meeting, you're staying home. I'm staying home. And, and, you know, I kind of. So it wasn't like from the beginning, what you're trying to say is that from the beginning, you were not this go against the man type of person. You were very compliant. No, absolutely not.

I was extremely compliant. In fact, you know, in the beginning. before, you know, everybody, you know, ended up shutting their businesses down. My phone was ringing off the hook with clients that were like, well, what should we do? Because, you know, we have to stay open and run our business. And but, you know, should we make people wear masks? You know, should we limit our capacity? Should we cut down?

You know, what does the PR fall out from that if we do do that? If we don't do that? Because there were all these people at the time, you know, like say you were a restaurant. And you didn't, you know, there's all of these like virtue signolers that were like voluntarily shutting down their business, you know, with the beginning of March. And everybody was like, wait, what are you doing? So other businesses were like, I'm not going to do that, you know, but if you didn't voluntarily shut down your business, there were all these people calling you out, you know, on Yelp and on the internet and everything else saying so and so didn't shut down their business. There are super spreaders. There are this, that and the other. So that was the type of phone call that I was fielding, you know, what should we do? How do we respond to this? you know, we have these issues. What happens if we have a case pop up at our business? Like that, that at the beginning was what I was dealing with. And, you know, being in PR, you know, I am always very liability minded, you know, and what is the fallout going to be. So of course, at the very beginning, I was like, oh, well, we have to minimize any brand damage. We can't have people out

there trashing businesses on the internet. We have to do, you know, we have to follow the guidance. We have to do what's asked of us. And, you know, and it was, wasn't until later. you know, by summer that, you know, we'd probably spent 90 days, you know, on, you know, lockdown light in Arizona. It wasn't as bad here as it was other places, but it was bad. I mean, there were weeks and weeks and weeks that I didn't leave my house, you know, and I was one of the ones early on wearing a mask in the grocery store. You know, I was, you know, which sounds insane now, but like washing the groceries. No, everybody did it. You know, like it would take three hours for me to go grocery shop and bring things home. And so. Well, we didn't know. This

never happened before. You know what I mean? All of us were, I remembered crying watching the news I mean in March of 2020 and, you know, and just being like, is this the end of the world? I have, I was just like, I haven't even had little baby chicken nuggets yet. You know, I was just like freaking out. So I do not blame you at all. And then the thing is, is everything you're describing, losing so much of your business. When you saw the mask display, do you think that that was what had triggered you or do you think it could have been anything that day you were ready to just snap that just happened to be it oh yeah i mean i i i think that the masks you know in particular are such a symbol of this authoritarian overreach and this tyranny you know that i you know i come from a long

line of of people who have fought you know for their lives you know in the face of of tyranny and authoritarianism and, and, you know, have survived. So I think that my survival instinct just kicked in. And when I saw the mask that day, I was just, I just snapped. I just snapped. In the clip that went viral, that first clip of you in Target, knocking over the mask, displaying everything, the employees come up to you. They're like, what is going on?

After the video stops, explain to us what happened that we didn't see. So after the video stopped, I mean, you know, I, I, I, I really, realized, you know, quickly, you know, and I, what's so funny about like this whole thing, and I think the reason why it went so viral and it was so shocking is that anybody who knows me, you know, has this picture of me in their mind, you know, you're polished, you're successful, you're professional, you're stylish, you're this or that, you know, you're well spoken, you help other people be well spoken. It just was so unbelievable, you know, that somebody like me would just completely come unhinged like that. And, I mean, that's the result of lockdowns. But,

But when I, when this happened, you know, I came to and I felt so bad. I was like, you know, and there's a second video that's circulating online. Of course, it doesn't go viral like the first one. Yep. But there's a second video online, you know, where I am like apologizing. I picked up all the masks. I put them back in my cart. I gave them my American Express card.

I said, I'm sorry. Let me, let me pay for these. Like, I, you know, I just lost it. I'm sorry. And, you know, they weren't having it. Like they. What were they saying to you? They, you know, they did call an officer to the store and they were like, are you okay?

And I was like, you know what? I just lost it. I am sorry. And they, you know, asked me to leave. And there's some video of me like saying by people, you know, calling them sheep and stuff, which I mean. Well, well, the truth hurts. I mean, isn't it like a little bit of aggressive? It's like, oh my gosh, she actually said it.

But we're all thinking it, Melissa. That's the thing. We're all thinking it. Yeah. They are sheep. And we're two years later now, and they're still following these guidelines. Nothing has changed. They're adding more guidelines, you know.

And so you're not wrong. You just said what everybody is thinking. Right, right. It's the stupidest game of Simon says I've ever seen. So anyway, so I left the target to backtrack the story a little bit. So I, at that point, I was staying in a hotel by myself because my husband and I were kind of arguing about. what I was posting online before this moment

before this moment oh no yeah because because you know as I got more and more upset and like was posting more and more content and like at that point I you know you know like I'm very into wellness and yoga and taking care of myself and all that type of stuff and like I was just kind of off the rails

at that point I wasn't sleeping I wasn't eating I was just on you know my phone and watching the news and looking at the internet all hours the day and light Like all of my self-care practices were completely out the window. And my husband knew something was wrong. What were you posting that was concerning him? Well, you know, at that point, I had kind of gotten down the rabbit hole into what I now understand to be QAnon content. And I say that in, you know, quotation marks.

Because I think we've all seen it, you know. And the way that, you know, and I don't know, you know where people ask me, oh, do you know who, what Q is or where it can. I don't know where it came from. I don't know what it is. I know, you know, it's, it's been co-opted, you know, over and over and over again. And, you know, it's very hard. Even as somebody who is educated, intelligent and, you know, does PR for a living, it's hard to separate fact from reality at this point. I mean, I think that's part of what's turned people so inside out is this everything is so confusing and the information is constantly changing and you don't know what to believe and you don't know what's what. So I had been. sharing some stuff that, you know, I think was disturbing. Like what? Like what? Um, you know, I think, you know, a lot, well, you know, what's so funny about that is, you know, it's, it's that old adage is like, you know, what's the difference between a conspiracy theory in reality? About six months. So, um, at the time, you know, it was stuff about, you know, vaccine, you know, they were going to mandate vaccines. They were going to do all this stuff. This is a control mechanism. This is part of this

globalist takeover. It was all of the stuff that, you know, I think for most people is very frightening, you know, and they don't want to wrap their mind around the reality that this could be happening, is happening. So, you know, I think that was the stuff that really upset people at the time. You know, I think it's a very different world now than it was, you know, when I had my incident. And I think, you know, at the time, people could not wrap their mind around, you know, that this disease has been politicized that, you know, vaccinate. nations has been politicized. You know, it just nothing has been, and I'm speaking from a publicist perspective, you know, somebody who is an expert in communications has done this for 20 years.

Everything about the way that the communication about this pandemic has been from the very beginning has been completely the opposite of what any, any expert in PR would tell you in terms of informing the public, being transparent, making people feel comfortable with things that are happening. I mean, it's just been completely. completely sideways. So, and I think, you know, anybody who has two IQ points to rub together at this point, you know, is scratching their head. Like, what is really going on? So at the time, I think it really freaked people out. I think a lot more people would not be as disturbed about the stuff I was posting now as they were then. Before that, did you and your husband see eye to eye typically, politically and just worldview or have you guys always been a little bit different? No, we, we absolutely. You know, saw eye to eye on our worldview. I mean, you know, we're, we've been together for 20 years. You know, he's my best friend. Like, we're very like-minded. I think that where he drew the line is he just did not want, you know, the attention. And it was, it was generating. You know, I have to say, I mean, everything that I do seems to generate attention. And that's by design. I mean, that's, you know, if I wouldn't be good at my job, if I wasn't good at creating a. a buzz and starting a fire and all that stuff. But I think that, you know, at that point in time, you know, I, my husband, you know, was disappointed that, you know, I was sort of bringing,

you know, negativity, you know, and scaring people, you know, and, you know, waking people up when they didn't want to be disturbed. Were you following accounts like Little Miss Patriot and stuff like that? Like, where were you getting this information that you were sharing that kind of had your husband on edge and other people on edge. Well, a lot of the information that I was getting was kind of interestingly enough, like originating from some of the new age pages. Interesting. Yeah.

Yeah. And I, you know, I consider myself a very spiritual person. You know, I have a very strong connection with God and my higher power and my beliefs. And, you know, I don't try to get super in the weeds on religious dogma. but I believe what I believe and you know you can't tell me anything different. But so it was some of like the new age like woo-woo stuff, but not even really that. It was like a little bit of that, but also like, you know, some fitness people and influencers and people who are our diet and just wellness, you know, nutrition people. And sadly, I kind of feel like that whole world has been sort of unfairly.

stigmatized, you know, in like spreading misinformation and, you know, boo, natural hell. Like Gwen if Paltrow Goophe. Exactly. Like that, if you had to characterize, you know, sort of what my affinity would be for that world, I am, I am totally goopy. I'm very goopy. I'm a goop. I'm a gooper. But so, so yeah, so that's where it originated. And it wasn't, it wasn't like, you know, I think the way that like QAnon got sort of sold, you know, know, which was embarrassing because like every time I have a conversation with somebody about it, like I hate talking about it, obviously. But like they, they act like it's like these like weird, you know, and don't get me wrong. Like there's totally like a sect of like crazy people in the basement. Yes. You know, that have no teeth and like, you know, our, our wakadoos. But there was this other like, and I don't know how it translated or how it came full circle. I mean, there are like researchers or researchers trying to figure this out. But like, how. How? It's, like, how it's

it sort of infiltrated this wellness space and that was the type of stuff that I was sharing. So it wasn't like overtly, you know, harmful, at least in my eyes. And I really thought, honestly, I swear, I really thought that I, and that I was helping people, you know, in sharing this information because I, you know, my mindset was, well, you know, I want to know. I want to know the truth. I want to know the truth about what's going on. I just, you know, that's just what type of, it doesn't matter that it's even this. Like, that is what type of person that I am. I'm like, give it to me straight. Just, just tell me the facts. Like, I want to know. So that was the type of stuff that I was sharing. And, you know, it was, I think it was the frequency and, you know, the fact that I was going off brand, you know, for who I am, you know, as a person that I think was freaking people up. Who wasn't going off brand in the beginning of the pandemic? Every person's life was completely upended and completely changed. And that's why the QAnon stuff is so fascinating to me because I get it. I get why and how that infiltrated regular culture.

You know, it wasn't like you were trolling and scrolling through 4chan. You know what I mean? Like I understand what you're talking about because normal people in my everyday life, like, you know, people with regular jobs, cute girls that you and I would hang out with people. These are not, like you're saying, basement dweller type people were getting involved in this stuff. And it wasn't coming from accounts that said Q1 on. That's what nobody understood that that's what they were, unless you were really, really deep into politics and like in that community. Like I am like I work in this every day. I understood the differences.

But to normal people that do not just consume this every single five seconds, it was so hidden in everyday type of culture, what you're talking about, health and wellness and all these different things. it was normal looking accounts with cute graphics and stuff. It wasn't this like doomsday account or something, you know, one Q on account. So it duped people. And why it's not crazy to me that people would be looking for answers like that and something so obscure. Because when we go to the places that we're supposed to be getting trusted information, like our news, like entertainment, like, you know, our health officials, they lie. They keep lying over and over and over again.

How can we trust them? So naturally, people are going to be like, well, clearly I can't trust you. So I'm going to look for something else for information about what is going on and impacting me on a day-to-day basis. And, you know, still they refuse to answer questions. Oh, totally. Yeah. I mean, and that's the whole thing, too, is just like, you know, we've gotten so reliant on our, on technology for information. And it's like, you know, there used to be this thing where you would just like go outside and talk to people and like take the temperature, you know, of how.

people were doing and how they were feeling and you know you talk to this person that person and that's you know people don't think of that anymore which is like which is like insane to me but like that's honestly like really what brought me back down to reality was like getting away from so much technology consumption and getting back to like just talking to people and just connecting with real people because the world is not as it seems on the internet when you really connect with human beings and big picture ideas some of the stuff that was being covered, you know, like human trafficking with children being a problem, absolutely real. Well, and that was the non-starter for me. And I think especially women who sort of found themselves, you know, being kind of pulled into this sort of cue and what we understand now to be QAnon sphere. But, you know, being somebody who has a heart for children, you know,

and I've done a tremendous amount of philanthropic work for human trafficking nonprofits here in the Valley, you know, that immediately spoke to me. And, you know, that was like one of the come to Jesus moments where I was just like, you know, I know that I have influence and I have a voice and I am capable of communicating effectively and people listen to me. So I am going to use every resource I have to push this information out because there are children, you know, that was my understanding at the time is, you know, there are children who are victims of this and I'm not going to stand for it. And I could at least feel good about that that I was doing something to, you know, hashtag save the children. How soon after you had started live streaming in Target did your husband or friends or family members start texting you or saying, hey, what is going on here?

Or was it a while before they had noticed? Well, you know, actually, you know, in the few days, you know, before the Target incident, I, people started, you know, to text me or whatever like, hey, are you okay? like thinking about you, you know, what's going on. And people ask me like all the time, like, well, why didn't anybody stop you? Like, why didn't anybody stop you from doing all this? And it's like, you know, when you own your own business, you're as successful as I've been, there are not a lot of people who you will answer to. Well, you're an adult also.

Right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, I mean, after the target incident happened, you know, obviously my. phone started to blow up pretty quickly, you know, it went viral very quickly. And like I said, I was staying in a hotel and I had two policemen come over to the hotel and knock on the door and I answered. Are you scared? No, I wasn't scared because, you know, I was like, you know, whatever, you know, I got, I wasn't, you know, thinking exactly tremendously clearly at that time,

but I answered the door. I was like, you know, and they were just like, hey, you know, somebody called and you know we wanted to come over I didn't even know how they knew where I was staying but um they wanted to come over and just do a welfare check and you know see how I was doing and I told them I was fine and they were like okay bye so you know that was that was the first that was the first engagement with the police that day and it was fine you know um the what everybody saw happen in my garage um later that day was because I had went back to my house to get some shoes because I was going to my first ever protest. Oh, I was planning on it. Didn't make it. I was I was planning on going to my first ever protest. There was a big protest downtown against the mask mandate. And I was planning on going.

Didn't get there, though. Let's talk about the moment in your garage, because this is the part that really blew my mind. It was your husband who had called the police. Did you know that he was going to do that? Was it a surprise? Oh, it was quite a surprise. You know, I basically would have happened. You know, I came back to my house to get shoes. And, you know, my husband, bless him, you know, before any of this happened and I went to go stay in a hotel. Like I said, my husband had been to I and I had been together a long time.

You know, he's my best friend. We have two little dogs, you know. When he had basically had given me an ultimatum, you know, before this, before I left for the hotel. And he was like, you know, you need to choose right now, you know, between this family and what you are doing on the internet, you know, posting all the stuff, talking about Q&On, whatever. Or, you know, that's it. Like, we're done.

And I was like, I don't know how you can possibly ask me to choose between my family, you know, that I love or, you know, this important thing that I am doing to spread awareness about, you know, child trafficking and human trafficking and what is going on. Like, how can you ask me to choose between that and speaking out against all of this injustice that's happening and all of these lockdowns and these masks? Like, how can you ask me to do that? I'm doing this for everybody. Like, that was really where my mind was at at the time. And, you know, so I was just like, you know what, that's fine. I will pack my suitcase and I will, I will leave. So that's how I ended up in in the hotel in the first place. So when I came back to my house, you know, I opened the garage.

My husband came out and he's like, you know, I don't know why you're here. Like you said you didn't want to be here. And he could tell. I mean, like he took one look at me. Like I was in like workout clothes. I had no makeup on. I had blow drying my hair. Like I looked like a disaster. Like and so he just made the executive decision that intervention was needed. And, you know, of course I was furious. Of course I was furious. But I understand now why he did what he did. See, this is something with me, I don't know why I am like this, but my whole life, loyalty is the most important thing to me. And I really need to go to therapy and like ask why this is. But I mean, when I feel like somebody stabs me in the back or doesn't have my back and something, I will cut them out of my life.

Like, literally never speak to them again. I have gone years without speaking anyone. Now, I'm not sharing this like, this is a good thing. I'm just saying this is definitely a characterful of mine. but it hurts me deeply to feel that way. And so what's astonishing to me is that you're sitting here saying that, like, I understand why my husband did what he did. And I'm glad he did it because if someone in my life, a husband or a best friend or my

parent or anyone were to call the police on me and like have me taken away, I don't know how my marriage would recover. I don't know how those relationships would have recovered because I just never would have spoken to them again, straight up. Yeah. So you were not. mad at him. In the moment I would have been screaming at my husband. I just know me. I would been like, how could you do this to me? But you weren't saying that. You were just telling the police

that you had like White House clearance. Well, I honestly, to be honest, I, you know, I was kind of surprised that it went down the way it did. But when I listened to the video now and I'm like, yeah, you know, I would have probably been like, yep, they're in. Like, you know, I sounded, I Because she said that you were being sarcastic, but honestly, Melissa, when I listen to it, I think it sounds dead serious, which just speaks to the crisis that you were in emotionally. But it sounds dead serious to me. I mean, did you truly believe that you had secret government clearance and that you knew things that were going on that other people didn't? No, no. And but like I guess, I guess everybody who had been like watching my stories, like I said, I had a very sarcastic, you know, sort of general tone and was sort of being facetious. And so I think everybody. who was watching the whole series on Instagram, you know, I was just talking to somebody today who was like, oh, I thought it was hilarious. But I think they would have gotten it. Unfortunately, the police were not watching my, my Instagram. So they, you know, when they, when you have somebody who is hysterical like that and appears to be a crisis, you know, I think that, you know,

that, that was probably the right move. And, you know, as far as my husband goes, like, I, he had tried, you know, to talk to me and, like, calm me down and say, you know, you need to sleep, you need to put your phone down, you need to do all this stuff. Like, he was pleading with me and pleading with me and pleading with me. And I was just refusing, you know, to do any of that just because I felt like I had this mission, you know, and that's kind of, you know, I think when you kind of get caught up in that, that's sort of where you're, why you see people get like radicalized, I guess, almost. Because you just feel like you have this mission and you just can't stop. So I just got so caught up in it. It sounds very manic to me. Yeah. Had you ever been diagnosed with any sort of mental illness or

struggles before? Never. I had I had never been diagnosed with a mental illness or anything like that, you know, ever, ever, ever. And, you know, I've been through some tough stuff in my life, but it's always just been like, pick yourself up, you know, work hard and just, you know, stay focused. So I think, you know, and I talk about, you know, kind of what happened and how I got through it. But, you know, I think a lot of where that kind of mental break sort of comes from, you know, is trauma over your lifetime that you don't deal with. And then you put, you know, an incredibly, a big stressor. Stress, like the pandemic and the lockdowns. And just for me, you know, I had kind of been, you know, I've been through some stuff. And I just been holding it together and holding it together and

holding it together and holding it together my whole life. If it wasn't that, it probably eventually would have been something else, you know, but the pandemic was a big something. When the police are talking you and they're like, okay, well, she's clearly not in the right mind, did they put you in handcuffs and start walking you away? What happened? Yep, they, they, you know, put me in handcuffs. I mean, they were actually, you know, very nice. Did they say you're under arrest? No, I wasn't under arrest. I, you know, they just basically said, you know, they hand me your phone and then they just put handcuffs on. And, you know, I, you know, didn't fight them or struggle or anything. So I honestly had no idea where they were taking me

or why. I would have been so scared. You were not scared. You were calm. I can't say that I was calm just because I was just so hysterical, but I just think that that whole day was just like such a blur of emotions that I think it was just really, you know, obviously of something like that, nothing like that would ever happen right now because I'm, you know, maintaining my homeostasis and my wellness to make sure that, you know, I don't run into that problem again. But yeah, I just, you know, I just, I think I was just so in shock that all of that had gone on. I just really couldn't wrap my mind around it. where did they take you? So they took me to a mental health evaluation facility where I ended up spending the next three days. And, you know, that's one of the things that really, you know, opened my eyes to the mental health crisis in this country. And, you know, just the lack of capability that we have, you know, to address those type of crisis. and care for people, you know, and when I say care for people, I mean really truly care for people in a healthy, wholesome environment that promotes healing and promotes wellness, because the situation that I was in was one of the most horrifying, you know, humiliating, you know, demoralizing places imaginable. I've, you know, never been to jail, but I would, I would believe that this is very much what what jail would be like what do you what do you mean by that well when I got

there um you know you are in you know there's no windows it's all cell block uh you walk into a little room you strip down they search you they give you a set of scrubs um they fingerprint you uh they wash you shower you know you get it like a threadbare towel and then you go into this big room where there are all of these like plastic reclining chairs, and they just tell you to sit in one of them. They throw a blanket at you. And in the room is probably, you know, 150 men and women of, you know, all crisis situations, you know,

that have been brought in, you know, mostly by the police. And what kinds of situations? drug overdoses, you know, people who have been violent, who, you know, for whatever reason, have, like, committed a crime, but, you know, have a mental health history so they don't, they don't take them to jail. They take them to this holding facility, basically. Is it an insane asylum, like what we think about from the movies? I mean, that would be more like the actual psychiatric hospital, which I did end up going to. But the evaluation facility is basically like, you know, they put you in there. All these other people are in there.

I mean, there's a lot of screaming. There's a lot of violence, you know. Did you see anything weird? Yeah. I mean, I was physically assaulted. I mean, like, it was, you know, and there's just guard. there, you know, and people coming around with a cart basically saying, you know, here's your medication. And you say, well, I don't, what medication? Like, I didn't come here with medication.

And they just say, oh, it'll make you feel better. So now is this happening. Now are you saying, why the heck did my husband let me come to this place? Oh, I was furious. Furious. Absolutely furious. Were you asking how long do I have to stay here? Oh, of course. Yeah, of course. And so what were they telling you? So what happens is. is because you're being evaluated, you know, there are, you see two doctors and you basically explain to them, you know, why are you here? And so I'm, you know, all wrapped up in this, you know, whole thing, you know, with with QAnon. So I'm like, no, you don't understand. You're still talking about Q while you're in there? Well, yeah, because I had believed, like,

not Q, not QN in particular, but just like human trafficking. But why were you saying that stuff? You had have known that that was why they had brought you in. I don't know. They ask you the questions in a way where, you know, they're like, you can't just be like, you can't just be like, oh, you know, I was doing this thing on the internet and I'm here. Like, they ask you these questions on the, in this way where, you know, when you read them back on paper, you're like, oh, okay. You're like, this sounds a little nuts.

Yeah, this sounds nuts. What legal grounds did they say that you were being taken in on? in Arizona I believe that if you are quote unquote petitioned meaning you know and basically what that means is you know the police officer saw my behavior in the garage took me to the place and said and it wasn't even that's I guess the difference is it was it was not my husband called the police but he's not the one who made it so I had to be in there was actually the police officer who brought me to the place and there's like a form that has to be filled out saying I basically saw this person acting in a way that I believe is a danger to herself or other people or statements she made or things, whatever. So the policeman filled out the paperwork and then that was kind of it. I was in the system. And then how long were you there before being moved to a psychiatric hospital?

I was there for the three days. And then after that, you know, know, they looked at it all. And from what I understand, and like I'm doing a bunch of advocacy work, you know, for in the mental health space, for people who, you know, are not necessarily able to advocate for themselves and different organizations, you know, to help kind of remake this mental health system because it's horrifying. Yeah. What I understand is 90% of the people, you know, probably more, who get into that evaluation facility are shuffled off to different state hospitals. And once you get into that system is when it, you know, really when the fun begins, and I'm being facetious, but where, where basically you go through something called mental health

court and you have to, at that point, be able to convince somebody that you're not requiring, you know, state mandated mental health treatment. So what were you saying to try to convince people, Like I'm just going nuts because of everything's going on with this pandemic, but I'm not actually nuts nuts, nuts. Yeah, but of course when you say that. I know. You say, I'm not crazy. Then you look crazier. So what do you say?

Exactly. I mean, you learn the laws. You learn how the court works. You read all of the paperwork. You know, obviously, like I said, I've been a business owner for 20 years. So were you just studying? I was studying. I was studying everything.

I looked at all the paperwork. I had an attorney. And that's the other thing, too. is a lot of people who get into that system, you know, do not have the resources. But, you know, at the end of the day, they were, you know, there was not enough to basically say, you know, this person, it takes a lot. I mean, if you look at like the Britney Spears case, which is so horrifying, it, it does take a lot of pieces in place to make it so, you know, a person's autonomy to make medical decisions for themselves is taken away. from them. But the situation that I was in was definitely the first step. Were they strapping you down or, or, you know, what was, what were the rooms like? Were they padded rooms? No. When you got to the

hospital, I mean, it, you know, it wasn't fun. It was, it was, you know, it's not like what you would think a hospital is like. It's, you know, three people to a room. You've got this little bed and, you know, And are they total weirdos? Well, I mean, some, you know, and that's, that's a problem with standardized, socialized health care is that, you know, yes, I mean, there are people in there who are very mentally ill and require, you know, serious care and, you know, are in a serious crisis situation, you know, that requires, you know, 24-hour supervision, you know, because they could hurt themselves or others. I was not that. That seems crazy to me that they would room someone like you with someone like that. stand that's the stand that's how the state handles it and this is why we need people like you in there now advocating for reform because it's it's absolutely that is insane well and it was it was

dangerous i mean it was it was dangerous i saw you know women get you know very physically assaulted um you know they obviously they don't pay people very much you know they're not very qualified it's it's not you know like i go sign myself up for rehab and you know it's this cushy tushy thing like it it was you know across between a jail and a hospital um you know and they medicate you know pretty much against your will and you know basically they say well if you you know it's this whole like weird mind game where like you know if you fight back against it or you say no or you advocate for yourself you say I don't want that or I don't need that they're they're basically like well if you don't do this you know you're not being compliant my favorite word and um

And so, you know, that's grounds to say that you're not well because you're not taking the medicine that we're giving you or whatever it is. Is it fair to say that you were locked up in an insane asylum because you dared to question the left's narratives on lockdowns and mandates? Looking back, I mean, you know, it's frightening what happened to me. You know, I've had a lot of people say, you know, you were one of the first people to come out and speak out against the mandates, against the mask mandates, against the lockdowns. You know, at a little bit of vindication. A little bit of a need for sure. But, you know, did I handle myself appropriately? Did I handle myself professionally in the way that I normally would?

You know, was I disrespectful to Target, which is like my favorite store and, you know, people. Are you not allowed to go back to Target ever? Are you kidding? I'm at Target every week. Like, I love me. Nobody knows? No, they know. Actually, I was at Target.

And somebody came up to me probably about four or five months. ago who was there that day and she just came up to me and gave me hug and she was like, you know, I follow you on Instagram and I'm following your story and I've seen you on TV and I just wanted, I just wanted you to know, like I'm pulling for you and I'm so happy for you and I'm, you know, I'm so glad you got, you know, everything sorted out and you know, she was just like, I knew, I knew that day that like something was really wrong and I just felt really bad for you. It was very sweet. Oh my gosh.

Yeah, it was very sweet. Wow. What a turnaround. That's incredible. Yeah. I mean, and sure, you mean, make no mistake. Like there was a while where I was like, I don't think I want to go back in there like are they going to kick me out oh i'd be so scared to show my face i i just i would be so the embarrassment and just like what are they think of me like i couldn't do it so that is so um that's very i think it's very cool of you to be like unafraid like that you're you're brave after you go through what i have i've been through in being canceled and you know having everything losing everything working my butt off to get it all back not a whole lot phases you know and there's not a whole lot that people can say about you or right of

you or do anything to really that can bring you down so I just live my life what did you end up saying then because you were doing all the studying and all this to try to figure out how can I get out of here what did you end up saying so that you could get out of the psychiatric hospital and back home and also had you had any contact with your husband at all yeah I'd had some contact with my husband I mean you know he was you know really angry with me just because of obviously the whole target incident. I wish you could understand the level of hate and vitriol that came towards me, my family, pretty much everyone I've ever done business with and ever known. I mean, I am talking husbands and wives of my clients, my hairstylist husband's business. Like that, you know, this was just

such a weird time where people had absolutely no time on their, like had nothing but time on their hands just to be vicious. And so, I mean, the phone calls, the death threats, all of this just went on for months. And it was just unbearable. So my husband was so angry, you know, at me for exposing us to this. And so, you know, I talked to him a little bit, obviously. But, you know, basically it just came down to, you know, hey, I do not have a mental health history. I have never been diagnosed with a mental health disorder before. I've been very successful business owner for many years, you know, I'm a pillar in the community. I do philanthropy work. Like, there were all of these character, you know, testimonials that like my attorney was able to put together saying like,

okay, this is what happened, you know, and this was, this was a crisis, you know, that was caused by, you know, unforeseen circumstances and, you know, all of the stuff. But at the end of the day, they were able to make, you know, a very legitimate case saying she's a good person, you know, she's a business owner, she minds her own business, she's a law-abiding citizen. She's never had any of these issues before, you know, you have absolutely no grounds, you know, to mandate this. Do you feel like the lockdowns that were imposed during the pandemic were just as traumatizing as being locked up in a facility? Absolutely. I mean, you know, if not, you know, and for me, you know, I am the type of person, you know, totally a type A person. Like I said, I want to know

everything that's going on. Give me the, I don't care if it's good news. It's not bad news. Just tell me to me straight. I want to know. you know, having such a lack of control and changing circumstances and, you know, it was just very frightening and very traumatizing. And like I said, you know, I lost both of my parents when I was very young. You know, I went through a really hellish, you know, period in my life where, you know, I had no control over anything that was going on. And that brought up very, you know, for me, just on an individual level, I know everybody's experienced the pandemic in different ways. But for me, it just brought up feelings, you know, that I hadn't felt in 20 years. Yeah, that lack of control.

I think that makes total sense. And just, you know, it was things that I probably, you know, obviously hindsight is 2020, you know, should have, should have, should have dealt with. But it's like, when you're, when you're successful and you're living your life and you're thriving, you know, a lot of people don't stop and, like, pump the brakes and be like, you know, I should go back and unpack that trauma from 20 years ago. Like, that'd be great. Like, let's, I got a weekend. Like, nobody does that. Nobody does that. It's, it's not. It's not. until something happens that, like, is the straw that breaks the camel's back, that all of that comes back. And, you know, for me, you know, which is, and the irony is not lost on me, you know,

being that I'm, you know, this publicist and a policy professional, that I had the worst PR crisis, any imaginable that nobody thought I could come back from to clean up. And, you know, it made me very humble. Everything that has happened to me and being forthcoming with my story, you know, sitting here and talking to you about how I was locked into a mental institution, not on my top 10 things that I enjoy doing. But, you know, I want to do it, you know, because I want people to know, you know, what happened with the lockdowns hurt people and, you know, it broke people. And if I had a dollar every single time I got a message from somebody on Instagram or an email from somebody, especially right after everything happened saying, you know, I want you to know

that you're not alone in this type of situation. I've had a really rough go of it. You know, I had people say, you know, people lost friends, family members to suicide, to overdoses, to divorce, to things other. And people suffered in private in ways that are just unimaginable. And what happened to me, what everybody got to see, you know, is what a lot of people suffered from privately. And I just, I was some, the fact that people came to me and put their hand out and said, you're not alone. You know, I felt it was now a new mission of mine, you know, to reach that handout to other people and let them know. that they're not alone, you know, in the way they feel either. Well, what really pisses me off, Melissa, and what I think is so unfair when it comes to

your story is that everyone, and this is not a political, it's not a political thing. Everybody left or right, just decent people always harp on, we need to do better for mental health in this country. We need to be there for people when they're going through mental health crisis. And it seems to me that you openly, publicly share online. line, your mental health crisis, you're talking about it. But instead of being there for you, in the moment, though, so many people turned on you and were like, we don't want anything to do with her. And then, you know, how you were treated, I just feel like that's so unfair and it's so

hypocritical. All these people that preach about how we need to be there for people with mental health issues. And then you go through it. And they're always saying, reach out if you need help. Reach out. Well, I don't know how you could possibly ask for help any more than, you know, having a public meltdown like you did. And then they just stab you in the back. Well, and not only that, it was like, you know, when I came forward, you know, and I was forthcoming about what I had experienced, you know, it was just shocking to me that exactly all of those people who you were talking about who are just very like, you know, they're willing to say whatever about mental health because it sounds good. Yeah, and it gets you likes on Instagram. I mean, there were some of those people that you were describing were some of the most vicious. The most vicious of my situation.

And it's like, you know, all right, you know, I'll just, I'll just keep on, you know, doing my thing. But it's like what was really the most disturbing was like when I was at the lowest of the low, you know, and I had come out of that of the hospital and, you know, all. And I not to say like, okay, I didn't, you know, I had had this crisis. I had been through the hospital system. You know, when you come out of that, you know, when I came out of that another side, I had, you know, my husband was essentially leaving me. Yeah, I want to know about that. He, you know, he had, when all that was happening and people were threatening him and all this stuff, he had filed for a divorce. You know, I had basically, I had nowhere to go. I had no one to call. I, you know. So when you get out of the facility finally, after what, five days? Seven. Seven. Okay. So after a week, you get out of the mental, the psychiatric hospital. Where do they put you? I mean, you're just free to go? Well, yeah, I was free to go. I had a dear friend of mine pick me up. And, you know, I had a family friend who, um, who. And, and. has a property in Palm Springs he wasn't using. So he was just like, you know, come, you know,

lay low and hang out here. And, you know, I was, I was not feeling good. You know, when I, you know, just I had lost everything. Did you try to call your husband? Um, I mean, he did not want anything to do with me at that point. And, and, and at that point, like, I was really angry at him, too, for all the reasons that you mentioned. Like, it took me a long time to get past the whole, you know, why did you call the police on me? You know, I could not wrap around. around my head, you know, that he would do that to me. But, you know, again, when I finally got, you know, the appropriate, like, therapeutic treatment, you know, I could, you know, I could actually talk on a level where, like, you know, I under, I could see in his eyes when he's looking

to me, you know, my eyes telling me, like, I love you so much. I care about you more than anything. I did not, I had no idea, you know, where you were at. I couldn't, he just told me, he said, you just had the scariest look on your face that I have ever seen. Like, I just couldn't connect with you like I'd never so I when he explained it like that and he he was just bawling you know that is when it like finally got through to me that like something was like really you know I was going through something that like it really freaked him out and he he you know in the best of intentions you know he had no other choices you didn't know what else to do had you been diagnosed with anything while you were in the hospital well they you know they try and throw a diagnosis at you know as part of

the mental health court because that's the case that they make. They basically say, okay, well, we've analyzed her for, you know, the last seven days or whatever. And we believe that based on the reason that she's here and this, that and the other, that she has this. And so, you know, all of any, any of your other health records and stuff, you know, again, if you do not have an attorney and have somebody who, you know, can pull all of that stuff and say, no, here are her health records. Here is, you know, what medication she takes, what medication she doesn't takes. There's no proof of this. So you're telling me a doctor who's seen her three times in seven days, you're telling me that she's got this, this, you know, disorder that is life-changing. And so they,

you know, obviously that's, it's, it's a legal, like anything else, like the mask mandates, like the vaccine mandates, anything. It's, it's a legal fight. So if you come in, you're prepared and you make your case and they're like, okay, you know, they back off of it, I guess. And that's, that's exactly what happened. Okay, so how long, how much time had passed between being let go or or becoming an outpatient of the facility or whatever to actually speaking to your husband again and meeting up? How long did you guys go without talking to each other after that? Um, well, I mean, obviously there's administrative reasons why you have to talk to your husband, you know, cars and stuff like that. Yeah, but I mean, really talk. Um, so, you know, probably,

about another week, you know, obviously, you know, I was really sad and like I missed my dogs. And, you know, I didn't know what to do with myself. Like I found myself like I had lost, you know, I was unemployed at that point. I had lost my business. Like all, you know, a lot of my clients had like big brands, you know, and probably patronized. Like they were in a position where, you know, Castle culture came to them and they were like, is this your girl? And they, you know, basically had to denounce me in a really public way. I mean, global brands that everybody knows and loves. As a PR professional, is that what you would have advised them to do if it was not even you in this situation? If it was somebody else, would you have said yes, denounce her?

You know, what I know about cancel culture now and the knee-jerk reaction that we see, you know, with the Internet. And probably not, you know, I would have, I would have figured out a way to minimize the damage and, you know, do it in a way that's respectful. but I think that, you know, knowing that there was a mental health crisis and not having all of the information, you know, on the front end, I was disappointed. I mean, clearly it's because they didn't have me to advise them. But I was disappointed, you know, especially the ones that, you know, I had very, you know, good long-term friendships, relationships, people I would socialize with and have dinner with, you know, just flipped on me at, you know, but that. That's how vicious the mob is. And when you are in the crosshairs of the mob and your business is on the line, you know, I think that they get put into, you know, I had lunch with a client of mine. By the way, I've gotten back, you know, 90% of the clients that did that to me. That's awesome. You know, which again is like, you know, I am very much, you know, a forgiving person. And, you know, I, that was one of the biggest lessons I had to learn because I have been known to hold a grudge myself. But, you know, when clients, back and they would say, you know, we're really proud of you. You know, you've handled this like a champ and, you know, sat down and have lunch and they're like, you know, I want to apologize to you that we did. Like I had a number of clients that. I apologize to you that we did that. But you just got to know,

what we, the calls we were getting, the emails we were getting, our clients, the clients that our business serves were being threatened. So, you know, and especially when it's like, you know, a brand that has done a lot of, you know, diversity and inclusion work. And, you know, that's part of their whole mission, there was just like nothing. Like they were just done. Well, and it's also interesting to me, I mean, without naming names, how many of these businesses that denounced you for knocking over a mask display were also very publicly supportive of Black Lives Matter, you know?

Right. The double standard of you have this little girl and you're like about the same size as me, maybe even smaller, like, you know, knock down a couple masks off a display and it's just like all hell breaks loose. and then you have literal cities burning down and everybody praises them and acts like they're saints. Well, and you know,

what really breaks my heart truly about all of that is that, you know, I felt really bad for what I did. You know, I knocked, I know, and it sounds silly on its face. Oh, you knocked over a display and Target. Okay, I cleaned it up, I put it in the car, whatever. But I felt really bad about what I did because, you know, anybody who knows me knows, you know,

that I am very kind and conscientious of other people. Like, you know, the way that I like sort of sniff somebody out is I'll take them to lunch, you know, decide if I'm going to hire them, if I'm going to work with them, whatever, if I'll even represent them and see how they treat the weight staff. Like that was like always like my calling card was like, let me see it like how somebody treats the weight stuff. So I felt really bad for the way that I acted. I know it was unbecoming and unprofessional. It's just not who I am as a person. Like I was just not in a good position. And as far as I know, and I've been on, listen, I've been on CNN.

I've been on every step in Washington. I've been everywhere, you know, trying to make it right and, like, sincerely apologize for the things I said and the things I did and the people that I hurt and the people that I upset and anybody that I harmed, you know, intentionally or unintentionally. As far as I know, to this day, I'm the only person who screwed up a store and did that. And still there are people who just refuse to forgive me. Melissa, refuse to let it go. The night that like the main Antifa, Black Lives Matter, whatever, riots happened here in Scottsdale, Arizona, I was driving through it. Like when when the Paul brother, whatever was at the mall and then people were smashing into the Mercedes-Benz dealership, I was there at the stoplight driving and I was so scared for my life watching these people take bats and smash through these glass windows and everything. and that, like, nothing you did to me even compares to that.

But like how many of those people, you know, lost their jobs or had all this fallout? That's what's crazy. I'm glad. No, I'm glad you brought that up because that experience, you know, and I've lived here, you know, probably 21 years now. You know, I love Scottsdale. You know, I've been a big part of sort of the love. luxury branding of the city. And I'm so proud, you know, of who we are and what we are here. And what happened that night was probably the most disturbing and violating thing that I have ever

seen. I mean, I just remember, I was at home and I remember watching it on TV and just tears were just like streaming down my face because I was like, why isn't anybody doing anything? And it's not like, you know, I could care less if people want to, I mean, I take that back. I care that people, I care that people damage property. I think it's, I think it's, I think it's wrong. I do. I just do. Right. So, you know, I think that that was for me, like, emotionally, when you, when you think of, like, all of the stuff that we went through in 2020, like, the lockdowns being one thing, you know, just watching, you know, your city, you know, just be, you know, violated in such a way. I mean, and it was frightening. And there, you know, there were, where I live, like, there were, you know,

rumors going out around that, like, the destruction was coming to the cities and the neighborhoods and stuff like that. I was there. I was with that too. It was very real. I mean, I packed my family up. Yep. And that was that was about a month before, you know, my episode. I was so disturbed, you know, I packed my family up when we got in the car and we left and we just started driving north. I'm like, you know, we'll book something when we get there. If, if what they say, you know, is going to happen tonight, you know, that everybody was talking about, which was coming into the neighborhoods. And I, you know, I lived across the street from the next neighborhood. They were, they were supposed going to hit. You know, that, that, that was. That, that was. That, that, that, was something that just, I think that, you know, affected me just as much of the lockdowns because

my sense of safety was in question. It felt literally like the purge. I ended up staying that night in a hotel in downtown Scottsdale with a girlfriend who was visiting from out of town from out of state. And we were in this hotel, a nice hotel in downtown Scotts, Old Town Scottsdale. And the hotel locked all the doors. They had their employees barricading the doors to the hotel because they thought that Antifa and people were going to be coming and storming the lobbies and coming up to our rooms. We were so scared. My entire neighborhood was surrounded with police barricades when we packed up and we went up north. Like when we pulled out of my neighborhood, there was lines of police cars blocking all of the major intersections. I mean, it was nothing I had ever seen in my lifetime. I never would ever want to.

I think, I don't think people really understand, you know, how real it got, you know, in Scottsdale for a minute. It was, it was scary. What was the turning point? for your husband to decide, actually, I know I filed divorce papers, but I don't want to leave, Melissa. Well, I mean, you know, I had come to him, you know, looking at different options because, you know, I had at that point, you know, was able to kind of look back at the last year and be like, you know, I started this year at the top of my game, you know, my business had not been doing better. You know, I had just gotten some of like the biggest clients that I had ever had. like everything was amazing. You know, I was, I was just on the top of the world. So in that hindsight

where it went from, you know, the height of everything to just shambles, I was like, you know, this is a really good time for me to do some of that work, you know, that internal work that I had not been willing to do before. But I want to do my research and I want to find a way, you know, to do that, you know, in a really healthy environment. So we're really fortunate here in Arizona, you know, that we have plenty of different treatment facilities. I mean, we're world renowned, you know, for our rehabs and stuff like that. Yeah. And I had found it's an offshoot of the Meadows program, which, you know, Heidi Klum has spent time at and Charlie Sheen. And, you know, they, they, of course, have, like, their inpatient rehab, but they have an outpatient rehab. But they have an outpatient

trauma program that I went, you know, and did. And it was an eight-week intensive program, you know, and my husband, you know, was amenable to, you know, let's work on. And they had a family, like the part of the program was that, you know, it was a family therapy and stuff like that. So you could come together and kind of rebuild your family and stuff like that. But the stuff that I, you know, did in there, very little of it had to do with the target stuff at all. I mean, the majority was really just trying to unwind, you know, the trauma that I experienced with the loss of my parents and, you know, never dealing with that and, you know, all of the stuff that, you know, had kind of been compressed into the lockdowns and the safety issue and the fear and all of that stuff.

And just unwinding that from the beginning, you know, and kind of building myself back up. Once you're institutionalized by the state, can they just show up at your door any time? Okay. So there happens a couple different ways. When you're in the hospital, And this, you know, I talked to several people in there, you know, I was shocked. This was what really motivated me to speak out and advocate for people in the mental health system. Some, you know, some of the people have serious mental health problems, but not to the point where, like, they can't communicate and stuff like that, but some of them do, you know. So I was talking to people, you know, and you don't never know what anybody else's medical history is, but like,

they can decide, you know, they could have decided, no, you're just, you're just in here now. Like, they can hold you, I think, legally, up to 180 days or something like that, you know, without question. And then from there, you know, they can put you in, you know, a real state run hospital, if, you know, the situation is serious, whatever. What happens to most people who get, like, mandated into that system is they give you this diagnosis in the hospital. And then they say, here's the medication that we say you should take after we've seen you twice in seven days. and now if you don't take that, you have to go to like facilities and basically, you know,

have the medication injected into you. And if you don't, you're like basically, you know, in contempt of the court and the court can come and get you and basically put you back in the hospital. And if you get back in the hospital, you're in there.

Do you live in fear every day that that could happen if you make one false move that they're going to come get you? I was not, I'm not mandated to any sort of medication. I was, that's what I'm saying.

It's like when I, I went against the court and they had no grounds to do anything like that towards me. Thank God. Because if I was not able to advocate for myself, then yeah, they would have said, you're on this medication for the next year and you have to check in, you know, with like a PO basically to make sure. And that's the thing. Did they take your blood?

Like that's what they were saying. It's like they make sure that you have the amount of medication. They injected in you, all of the stuff. Like there are people, you know, walking around who've been through that system who, that's That's their life. They are living that life. The state is mandating their medications. And if they do not comply, they are put into the hospital prison system. And that's their lifestyle. Like that, that was what I was up against when that happened. It feels like you've totally been able to rebuild your life. Your business, your marriage has had restoration. What would you say to somebody that's facing something similar, maybe not quite to your level, but they have lost their job because of their political views or their religious beliefs, you know, their relationship. their personal relationships have fallen apart? How do they build back their life like you have? What is the Melissa Lively PR expertise on you've been canceled?

Now what? I think it all comes down to mindset. I think you have to know. I mean, everybody has to know whether you've been canceled or not, you know, that you are an immensely powerful, resilient human being. And shit happens. You know, shit happens. I'm sorry, I'm not supposed to cuss on this, but I mean, that's, that's, you know, that's,

that's life, you know, we go through things that happen in life and there is so much more ahead of you and like this two shall pass. And I think, you know, being a strong person, you know, and also, you know, you have to kind of go through the process of releasing that anger. You know, I think about that all the time is like, you know, I could wake up every day and be angry that I got canceled and angry that all this stuff happened to me and angry that I did it to myself. Like I could just be an angry person. I could. But instead, I decided to just look at the future and just put my shoes on, you know, and just take one step at a time and just, you know, people that I had wronged, you know, make it right. And if not, you know, also the other thing, too, is like,

sometimes things happen, you know, that are wild and unexpected in life. And it opens up a new pathway of opportunity for you. You know, I, you know, for me, I'm really good at what I do and I love what I do and I love the people that I work with. So it was really important to me to go back and and make all of that right. And I think, you know, when people finally, the dust settled, you know, people who knew me were like, I was really, you know, that was what I heard from me was, I was just really worried about you. I was just so worried about you. And I'm glad that you're back and you're great and this, that and the other. But, you know, there's always hope and there's always future. And, you know, if you, and this is, you know, what I wrote my book about is like, you cannot cancel me

because I will not cancel myself. And that is the mantra, you know, that people have to get in their mind. It's like you can, you will only be canceled if you allow them to cancel you. And I think, you know, the best part of it all is that, you know, despite the journey that I've been on and the trials and tribulations, I really feel like now, you know, my marriage is stronger. My business is better than ever. The numbers are just where they were before the pandemic, if not better. And I'm working with the type of people who are, who get me, who, you know, there are no secrets, you know, everything, you know, you want to Google me, Google me. Like, there is, you know, every, it's, it's all out there. And so I think that that takes a lot of the fear away because there's literally

nothing you can say about me or do to me that's going to take anything away from me that I've, built, you know, and before I was ready to give that all on the table and no longer. A lot of conservative business owners feel like they have to hide the fact that they're a conservative in order to keep their business afloat. What is your advice, PR advice on that? Should you be, feel free to be openly conservative and just let those customers leave if they want to leave? Or do you think it is better in this in this culture right now to kind of keep that under wraps? You know, I think at the end of the day, you know, I was never, again, political left, right, anything before any of this. I consider myself, you know, to be a libertarian. And that's, you know, why I'm good at what I do is because I put business first. And, you know, I, at the end of the day, I think, you know, run your business. I would say, do your best to keep, you know, and I know it's hard now because social media is just so easy, obviously, you know, to kind of, there is no separation from the business owner and the business. But I do think, you know, stand in your

values, you know, I don't think it helps the conversation to be aggressive, you know, and air out, you know, every thought, you know, the purpose of social media is not to air out every thought and emotion you ever have. Find a different avenue for that, you know, and think twice before you post. I think it's, you know, I think stand in your ground and say and do what you think is right, but I don't, you know, don't go, don't go looking for trouble. I think a lot of people do that now. Don't Instagram live yourself. and Target. You know, it actually worked out very well for me.

I'm talking to you. But, you know, yeah, don't recommend it. If I could do it again, I probably would not have done that. But, you know, I think that you've got to stand up for what you believe is right and, you know, do right by people and be, you know, have good ethics and operate with integrity and everything you do. And I think people will see that. You know, I work with clients that, you know, are on, you know, categorize themselves.

as left leaning, right leaning, up, leaning, down leaning. And I think we come to terms and respect each other, you know, in that we want to work together to make good things happen. And I think it's foolish, you know, I guarantee you, you know, there are, you know, people who, you know, say, oh, I don't want to work with this person or that person because of what their beliefs are or whatever. And, you know, I'm a very strong believer, you know, my story being proof positive that if you, you know, work hard and be kind and, you know, do right and stick by your morals, you know, good things will come to you and the right people who you want to be around will come to you. Absolutely.

Now, the name of your book is you can't cancel me, the story of my life. And is that out yet? Is it coming out? It's not out yet. You know, I've been writing it, you know, obviously since all of this happened. And I, you know, it's funny because when I first got approached by publishers, they were like, write, right about QAnon, right about Q&O. And what are we going to write about Q&ON? Like I honestly, you know, I'm not an expert in Q&N by any stretch of imagination. It was a small sliver of my story. And I'm, you know, not done telling it yet. You know, I've come through a lot. And, you know, I'm just, I'm trying to write that ending, you know, and I'm really, really liking where it's going because, you know, you can't. come full circle. And it's a little bit of like a handy-dandy guide, you know, from a PR perspective of what to do if this happens to you because I've lived it, you know, and I haven't lived by any sort of a

script. I've honestly, you know, just told my story from the heart. And a lot of it is embarrassing and a lot of it is painful and unpleasant. But, you know, every time I tell it, it gets easier and I hope that it reaches somebody that it helps. And, you know, at the end of the day, we're all human. And that's, That's all we can ask for is just a little bit of grace. What is your Instagram so that people can be following you so they know when the book finally comes out that it's out? It's at Melissa Ryan Lively. Melissa, I cannot tell you how excited I am to have heard this in person. I feel like you really gave some extra context to explain where your head was at, what happened, why it happened, how you turned out.

I think your story is full of hope for people who have experienced anything, you know, of the sort in that realm. in that realm of just being canceled or people coming after your business or whatever for making a mistake. And we all go through it. And I also think you shed light on something so important, which is the mental health crisis in this country in this country and how it's been totally botched from a government standpoint on how it's handled. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing that. Mental health and wellness should not be a luxury. So I hope that, you know, the efforts that I'm making and others are making can make it accessible. And we start, you know, rethinking the way that we approach all health care in this country from a way that actually heals people. Thank you, Melissa. Thanks for having me. We talk about cancel culture all the time, but it's because of how quickly it's devolved into just writing someone's life off. Literal people get canceled online. They lose friends or jobs,

and this isn't normal. Was attacking a target display a good idea? No, not at all. But did it make Melissa a bad person or warrant how she's been treated since? I don't think so. The world shut down nearly two years ago. What did they think was going to happen to people's mental health? This is why I wanted Melissa to come on to tell her story. Because despite losing so much both before and after her breakdown, Melissa is still writing her own story. There is redemption. Even when you think that you've really messed up or maybe you haven't and people are merely trying to cancel you because they don't agree with you. Whatever it is, only you have the power to truly let yourself be canceled or not. The year isn't over yet. We still have three more episodes of the spillover before season

two of the show. We'll start in the new year. And yes, you are even getting Christmas week and New Year's Eve episodes. I'm not leaving you hanging. My daily show, if you haven't followed on Instagram, is called Poplittics. It's your one-stop shop for all things pop culture without the leftist propaganda, and we just dropped brand new merch in time for Christmas. Shop tpUSA.com for cute hoodies, joggers, hats, and stickers, actually the hoodie I'm wearing right now. If you have an amazing story, good or bad that you think I may be interested in hearing for the spillover, or you know, someone who does, DM me on Instagram at Real Alex Clark

or at Poplittics. I am always looking for stories and interesting guests just like Melissa. Make sure you leave your weekly five-star review, even if all you say is, revived my soul and saved my marriage. I don't know. Make something up. You can watch each episode of The Spillover

on the Poplix YouTube channel. We're back next Thursday at 9 p.m. Pacific and midnight Eastern on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Love you, mean it. Bye.