Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark - "I'm A Black Man Who Infiltrated The KKK & Lived." - Talking To People Who Hate You with Daryl Davis

Episode Date: November 23, 2022

One evening, while playing in a band at an all white bar, Daryl Davis was approached by a white man who was impressed with his musical talents. After some conversation, the man revealed he was a member of the Ku Klux Klan. Daryl then made the shocking decision to meet more KKK members and other extremists to understand why they think–and hate–the way they do. To some, his decision that day may have made little sense. But his impact on the lives of KKK members eventually led 200 of them to den...

Word on the street is there's a party this December happening here in good old Phoenix, Arizona from December 17 through 20th. Don't worry. By then, the desert weather will be perfect. It truly is the best time of the year. And this year, it's even better because you are invited to the largest conservative event of the entire year, America Fest. For those of you who went last year, this is going to be bigger. For those who have never attended America Fest, I can't even begin to tell you how incredible this event is. Why? Because not only are you invited, but the biggest names in the conservative movement are, too, and you'll get to hear from them directly. Ever heard of Candice Owens? I thought so. Tucker Carlson, Tim Poole, Charlie Kirk, and many more. Plus, there will be live performances from celebrity musical guests. Just go to AMFest.com and use code Pauplitics to get 25% off your ticket. Today's guest lived through racial tensions that wrote our history books.

After experiencing racism as a young black boy, he set out to engage with extremist groups like the KKK. He went to their meetings. He invited them over for dinner. He looked at the most heinous ideologies head on and asked, how can you hate me when you don't even know me? Something that many people couldn't fathom doing today. He has planted seeds of truth in over 200 former KKK members that eventually led to them rejecting their extremist beliefs. He's a speaker and the first black author to write a book about the KKK members he encountered and interviewed famously titled clandestine relationships, a black man's odyssey in the Ku Klux Klan. Today's guest has made it his life's mission to have conversations with people

he does not agree with. Sometimes when it comes to small things and often when it comes to huge differences. He and I don't even share all of the same views which you'll see. We're two totally different people. But if he can sit across from a clan member and respect that person's right to an opinion, you can hear him out. Trust me, he's such a treat and he's here to talk about why he infiltrated the KKK, how to talk to people you disagree with and to prove that hate cannot be solved by cancel culture and deplatforming is Daryl Davis on the spillover. Let's start with your childhood, Daryl. Where did you grow up? Oh my goodness, Alex. You name it. I've been I started traveling at the age of three.

My parents were in the U.S. Foreign Service. So I grew up as an American Embassy kid, traveling all over the world in 1961. I was born in Chicago. My parents are from Virginia, but I was in Chicago because my dad had a job there at the time. He was one of the first Black Secret Service agents. Wow, that's so neat. And then later he would become a Foreign Service officer. So I grew up living in Africa and living in Europe and traveling to Asia and South

America and many different continents in between. I've been to 61 countries on six continents. And now as a musician, I've played in all 50 states as well as abroad. See, this makes a lot of sense to me then playing into your story, which we'll get into the details of. But I mean, you were a well-cultured kid that had really been everywhere and seen everything. I'm sure that had a lot to do with your temperament and everything dealing with different people anyway. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, if I can give you perhaps my favorite quote of all time is called the travel quote by Mark Twain. And Mark Twain said, travel is fatal to prejudice,

bigotry, and narrow-mindedness. And many of our people need it solely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable view of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. That's right. So when as a child did racism become something that you first even became aware of? one of the times when I came back home. Now, understand something. When I lived overseas and how it works is you're assigned to a country for two years and then you come back home here to the States.

You're here for a few months, maybe a year if you requested. And then you're back overseas again for two years. So one of the times I came back, now overseas, my first exposure to school was overseas. I did kindergarten, first grade, third grade, fifth grade, seventh grade. All right. My classes overseas were filled with kids from all over the world. My classmates were from Nigeria, Japan, Russia, France, Germany, Italy, you name it. If those countries had an embassy where we had our embassy, all of their kids went at the same school. So that being my first exposure to school, that became my baseline for what school should be, right?

But every time I would come home to the United States. To the U.S., right. I would either be in all black schools or black and white schools, meaning the still segregated or the newly integrated. And we did not have the amount of diversity in this country that I had overseas at that particular time. Of course, today you walk into any city school, people are from all over. But that was not the case in the 1960s. So one of the times when I came home, I was in fourth grade, age 10, 1968, and I was one of two black kids. in the entire school, myself in fourth grade and little black girl in second grade. So I rarely saw her.

All of my friends were consequently, you know, fourth and fifth graders, and they were white. Some of my male friends invited me to join the Cub Scouts. So I joined. And we had a parade. I was the only black scout in this parade. And the streets were blocked off, the sidewalks were lined with nothing but white people who were waving and cheering, smiling, having a great time until we reached a certain point in this parade route when suddenly I was getting hit. Physically. Physically hit with bottles, soda pop cans,

and small debris from the street by just a few of the spectators off to my right. I remember it being a couple kids, maybe a year or two older than me and a couple of adults that were throwing things, but nobody else. And my first inclination was those people over there, they don't like the scouts.

That's how naive. I was about racism, all right? And my den mother, my cub master, my troop leader, all came running over and huddled over me and quickly escorted me out of the danger. And it was then I realized I'm the only scout getting this special protection. What had I done? I didn't do anything to those people. I kept asking, why are they doing this? And all they would do is shush me and rush me along, tell me to keep moving, keep moving, everything will be okay. They never explained it to me. So when I got home, my mom and dad, who were not at the march, were asking me, they're putting band-aids on me and cleaning me up and asking me, how did you fall down and get all scraped up? Oh, this brings tears in my eyes.

I said, you know, I didn't fall down. I told them exactly what it happened. And for the first time in my life, my mom and dad sat me down and explained to me what racism was. Now, believe it or not, Alex, at the age of 10, I had. never heard the word racism. My 10-year-old brain could not process what they were telling me. I could not understand how someone who had never laid eyes on me, who had never spoken to me, who knew absolutely nothing about me, would want to inflict pain upon me for no other reason than this, the color of my skin. It made no sense. And to further my point, my friends in school

look just like the people who were doing this to me. So it had nothing to do with the color my skin. Right. Right. Or my friends overseas, whether they were my little American friends from the embassy or my little French or Danish or Swedish friends. They didn't behave that way. So my parents were wrong. It had nothing to do with the color of my skin. I didn't believe my parents. For the first time in my life, I did not believe my parents. About a month and a half, two months later, that same year, 1968, on April the 4th, Martin Luther King was assassinated. And I remember it very well. Every major city in this country, Chicago, where I'm from, Washington, D.C., where I live now, New York, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Detroit, Los Angeles, every major city in this country burned

to the ground, literally, with violence and destruction, all in the name of this new word that I had heard two months ago called racism. So now I understood my parents had not lied to me. This phenomenon does exist, but what I didn't know was why. Why does it exist? And I formed a question in my mind at that time. And that question was, how can you hate me when you don't even know me? And so did that just start this lifelong quest of, I'm going to figure it out. Like, I want to get the answer to this question no matter how far I have to go. Well, yeah, 54 years later, I'm still doing it right. So, you know, I'm a believer in, don't. get furious, get curious, you know.

Okay, so then when did you first hear about the Ku Klux Klan and what that was? Well, my father, we were watching a TV show as a talk show, and this host, his name was David Susskind out of New York, had on some clan people. And I didn't understand those people. Because he was, what, praising them, being critical of them? No, no, no, no. He was just, he was a talk show host. He died on different people.

people. Okay. You know, and we were watching this show, and I didn't understand this mentality, you know, and but I realized they had the same attitude as the people who threw bottles and rocks at me. And so that was my first exposure to the Klan, and my father said, yeah, he'd seen them before, and, you know, he'd recognized some of them when he was a kid. You know, they'd been around for a long time because he would see them in their robes and hoods, you know, because they would march around or have, you know, stand on street corners, trying to collect money or whatever.

Scary. Yeah. And he recognized some of the people because they wore the same shoes. You know, you might change your shirt or your clothes or your pants, but usually you wear the same shoes. That's right. Yeah. And so somehow your talent as a musician kind of played a part in you ultimately being

introduced to clan members. So can you explain that? Sure. Well, I graduated from college with my degree in music. And shortly thereafter, country music had made a resurgence. There had been a movie out called Urban Cowboy with John Travolta, had this mechanical bull, all these line dances. So all the bars and clubs, you know, where they play top 40, disco, etc.,

they switched their format to country. And so as a professional musician, though, if you want to work, you've got to play what's popular. And I like country music. So I joined this country band. I was the only black person in this band, right? And consequently, usually, the only black person wherever we played. The band was popular in the state of Maryland.

And they had played a place called the Silver Dollar Lounge in a town called Frederick Maryland. The Silver Dollar Lounge had a reputation as being an all-white lounge that black people were not welcome. I mean, there were no signs, but you knew. You just knew. Just new. And you also know that if you go somewhere where you're not welcome and alcohol is being served, it's not always a good combination, right? Yeah.

So I'd never been to the Silver Dollar Lounge. Well, now here I am in the Silver Dollar Lounge with this band. Everything was fine. You know, nobody bothered me. People looked at me, but, you know, they didn't bother me. And we did our first set, took a break, and I'm following the band over to the band table. And I feel somebody come up from behind and put their arm across my shoulder. Now I see the whole band in front of me, and I don't know anybody in this joint, so I'm, you know, turning around trying to see who's touching me.

So, white gentleman, I'd say maybe 15 to 18 years older than me. Big smile. He says, man, I sure love your all's music. I said, thank you, sir. Shook his hand. He goes, I've seen this here band before, but I ain't never seen you before. Where'd you come from? I explained. Yes, he probably did see them because they told me they'd played here. But it's my first time. I just joined the man a couple months ago. He's like, man, I sure like you're all's music. This is the first time I ever heard a black man play piano like Jerry Lee Lewis. Now, I was not offended, but I was rather surprised because this guy was at least a decade and a half older than me. How is it that he did not know the black origin of Jerry Lee Lewis's piano style? Right. So I told him, you know, I got it from the same place Jerry Lee did from black blues and boogie-wuggy piano players.

Yeah. That's where rock and roll rockability evolved. Oh, no, no, no. I ain't never seen no black man play like that except for you. you. You know, Jerry Lee created, I said, no, man. I said, listen, I know Jerry Lee Lewis. Jerry Lee is a good friend of mine. He's told me himself where his influences came from. God didn't believe I need Jerry Lee. But he wanted to buy me a drink. I don't drink alcohol, but I went back to his table, let him buy me a cranberry juice. Right now, I love you for that.

There you go. That's totally me. So I took my glass, well, I held my glass up. He took his glass, he clinked my glass, and he cheered me, And he says, you know, this is the first time I ever sat down and had a drink with a black man. Now I'm totally baffled because I'm glad you asked me about my background because now you have my background. I've sat down with thousands of anybody, white, black, Hispanic, Asian, you name it. And at this point, you're how old? At this point, I was like 25. Okay.

Yeah. And you've already, you were like, what do you mean? I'm 25 and I've met with all these different people. Right. Exactly. And I know that there are black people in Frederick, Maryland. I know that for a fact because I've seen them. So how was it that he missed them all and never sat down with him?

You know, so innocently, I asked him. I said, why? And he didn't answer me. He stared down at the tabletop. I asked him again. His buddy elbowed him and said, tell him, tell him. I said, tell me. Because now I'm totally baffled, right?

And he says, I'm a member of the Ku Klux Klan. I burst out laughing at him because now I did not believe him. I have a vast library. Because ever since that incident, I bought books. on black supremacy, white supremacy, the Ku Klux Klan, anti-Semitism, the Nazis in Germany, the neo-Nazis over here, trying to learn that ideology. Where does it come from? Where is it going?

How can it be addressed? So I have a vast knowledge of that. But my book's never talked about a Klansman coming up and embracing a black guy and wanted to buy him a drink. Buy him a drink. Yeah. Hang out. Tell him I love how you play music and all that.

So, of course, the guy's joking. And so I'm laughing. He goes inside his pocket, pulls out his wallet, and handed me his clan card, his membership card. I recognized the clan emblem, which is a red circle with a white cross and a red blood drop in the center of the cross. Whoa, this thing is for real. It wasn't funny anymore, so I stopped laughing and I gave it back to him. But we talked about the clan and some other things, and he gave me his phone number and wanted me to call him anytime I was to come back to this bar with this band because he wanted to bring his friends, you know. Yeah, his clans friends.

So then are you like, were you, okay, so you take his number and are you like, okay, yeah, I'm never calling this guy. No, not at all. Because like I said, I get furious rather than get furious, right? So he's going to bring Klansmen and Klanswomen to see me play. All right? So I call him every six weeks on a Wednesday or Thursday and say, hey, man, you know, we're going to be down at the Silver Dollar Friday and Saturday.

Come on out. He would come. He would bring Klansmen and Klanz women. And they would gather around near the stage and watch me play with the band. They'd get out there on the dance floor and dance to our music. On the breaks, I would make my way over to his table. Say hello. I'd meet some of them. There were two of them. Every time I headed towards the table, they'd get up and move to the other side of the room. So the implied message was, you know, we don't want to shake your hand. We don't want to touch you. We don't want to talk to you. We just want to look at you. So then when that happened to you there that first time or, you know, dealing with this with these people, was that a challenge? You were like, I'm going to change their mind? No, no. How did you take that, that interaction? To be honest with you, I have been exposed to so many cultures around the world. I just considered white supremacy another culture.

So I just treated it like I would treat anybody else. I'm going to be respectful. I may not respect what you stand for, but I will respect your right to hold your views. Okay? So I'm just, you know, I'm going to be curious. I'm going to try to learn why, you know, why you feel that way, et cetera. So I didn't really take it as a challenge. And no, you know, even though the media, they misportray me, if you Google me, you'll say, you know, black musician converts X number of KKK members or white supremacists.

No, I didn't convert anybody, not even one. I am the impetus for over 200 to convert themselves. And this happens through conversation. When I first started doing this, you know, after that incident, actually it was a long time after that incident. You know, I left that band at the end of that year. And I went back to playing rock and roll and whatever else was going on. And a few years later, it dawned on me. Daryl, the answer to your question that's been plaguing you since the age of 10,

how can you hate me when you don't even know me, it fell right into your lap. Who better to ask that question of than someone who would go so far as to join an organization that has over a hundred year history of practicing hating people who don't look like them, who don't believe as they believe? Get back in contact with that guy and get him to set you up with the clan leader of Maryland and then go up north, go down south, go to the Midwest, go to the West, and interview other clan leader. and other clan members and write a book about it.

Because no book had been written by a black author on the Ku Klux Klan from face-to-face interviews. All right? So that's what I did. But, you know, I never set out to convert anybody because I'm sure you heard when you were a kid, just as I did, that a tiger does not change its stripes. Yes.

A leopard does not change its spots. They are who they are. Why would I think that a Klansman or Klansmen or clans woman would change their robin hood. I was wrong. Okay, because, yes, right, a leopard cannot change its spots. A tiger cannot change its stripes because that leopard and tiger were born with those spots and stripes.

A clansman or clan member is not born with that robin hood. That is a learned behavior. Right. And what can be learned can be unlearned. All right. So in having these conversations with these people that I would interview, you. Not everybody wanted to interview with me. Some people freaked out. I'm not talking to you. Some people want to fight. Some things, you know, gotten violent from time to time. But, you know, that's to be

expected. After all, you're dealing with somebody who hates you just, who hates your existence, just because of the color of your skin. Fortunately, I prevailed both in the street and in court. But anyway, those who did sit down and talk with me, many of them ended up leaving. And as result of them leaving, their buddies began leaving. I have a vast collection of robes and hoods and swastika flags and all kinds of white supremacist regalia and memorabilia given to me by people who no longer believe in it since coming to know me. That's interesting to me because people would see that and be like, why in the world would you want to have that stuff? But to you, it means something else. It's like they were shedding that and giving it to you as a symbol of

I am not this anymore. That's right. You know, they were going to throw it away. Right. Okay? I said, no, no, no. I didn't know why I wanted it at the time, but I said, could I have it? And they'd give it to me.

It ends up symbolizing to you, based on what happened, something so much more positive than what it originally was meant for. Right. And now I loan some of my things to different museums. Oh, that's neat. Yeah. And I tell you something. How is it done? How is it that they would sit down with?

with their enemy, the reason why they joined the clan. Right. Because you're black, because you're gay, because you're Jewish, because you're whatever that they don't like. And now you're going to sit down with that person and then a while later, it may be months, it may be years, you're going to give that person your Robin Hood or swastika flag or what have you, if you're a neo-Nazi. It's the tools that I apply.

And let me share them with you. As I pointed out, I've been to 61 countries on six continents. I have played in all 50 states. What does that mean? It means I've been exposed to a multitude of skin colors, ethnicities, cultures, belief systems, ideologies, religions, et cetera, and all of that has helped shape who I've become. But I can tell you something,

no matter how far I go from our country, the United States, whether it's right next to Canada or right next to where to Mexico or halfway around the globe, no matter how different the people may be who I encounter, perhaps they don't look like me. They don't speak my language or they don't worship as I do. I always conclude one thing, and that is that we all are human beings. And as such, we all want these five core values in our lives. Everyone wants to be loved.

We all want to be respected. We all want to be heard. We want to be treated fairly and truthful. And we all want the same things for our family as anybody else wants for their family. And if we can learn to apply those five core values, when we find ourselves in an adversarial situation or in a culture or society in which we are unfamiliar, I will guarantee that your navigation of that situation, culture or society, will be much more smooth and much more positive. And that's what I do. I apply those values. And when people receive that, they're more apt to reciprocate because they're so used to being, you know, being punched, you know, punch a Nazi, all that kind of stuff.

I've never seen anybody beat the Nazi out of a Nazi. Okay. That doesn't work. Okay. And the same thing can be said too for racists who, you know, like when you were being physically assaulted in the parade, things like that. You can't beat the black out of somebody. You can't beat the white out of somebody. Beat the Nazi out of somebody.

That applies to all of it also. Absolutely. And these five core values I just shared with you, they can be applied to any controversial situation. Even the Thanksgiving table this week. And let's talk about that. I mean, for example, let's take race off the table for a second. There are enough hot topics out there. There's abortion.

There's nuclear weapons. The war between Russia and Ukraine. The war in the Middle East. global warming, you name the environment, whatever, the last presidential election, the next presidential election, these are all hot topics. You might be on one side, somebody else might be on the other side, right? Apply those five core values, and you can have a conversation with that person. You know, one of you may not ultimately agree with the other person, or you may. But at least you'll understand where that person is coming from, and they will understand where you're coming from,

and that's how you bring people together by finding these commonalities and knowing about each other. That's what you want to do. And as far as Thanksgiving goes, yes, you know, it breaks my heart seriously. When I hear somebody say, you know, I'm not even going to Thanksgiving dinner because my sister voted for so-and-so and I voted for so-and-so, you know, and I can't even talk to them or my mother or my father, whatever. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard, all right? no matter who becomes president of the United States, that person will only be in office for a minimum of four years or a maximum of eight.

Yes. How long have you been with your family? You've been with your family for decades. Are you going to throw away decades over somebody for four years or eight years? Right. That's ridiculous. If I can walk into a Ku Klux Klan rally or a neo-Nazi group and talk to those people and walk out unscathed,

I know you can sit at Thanksgiving dinner with your family. Ooh, he's preaching. I love it. Okay, now, here, let's go back a little bit because eventually your interactions with the clan, they went further, but it wasn't until the name Roger Kelly came up. Yes.

Who is Roger and the significance of him and what led to your path crossing with his? Okay. At the time, Roger Kelly was what's known as the Grand Dragon, Grand Dragon in clan terminology means state leader, what you and I would call governor. Okay. Imperial Wizard means national leader, which you and I would call president. So when I met, you know, when I decided to write this book, I figured I would start in Maryland where I live and then branch out to all the rest of the U.S.

So Roger Kelly at the time was the Grand Dragon of Maryland. And so I wanted to meet him and interview him. And I did meet him and interview him. and he would later go on to become the top guy, Imperial Wizard, national leader, president. And then he would invite me to clan rallies and things like that. You know, we had formed a relationship and even a friendship because I showed him those five core values. And he appreciated it and reciprocated back. And he began helping me out trying to understand the clan.

Now, understand something. I did not respect Roger Kelly's point of view. Right. But I respected his right to have it. And over time, Roger Kelly, you know, began to think about some of the things that I said. And he was experiencing a cognitive dissonance because it was like, you know, what that Darrell guy said, it makes sense. Oh, but he's black. But what he said was true.

Oh, but he's black. So it's a cognitive dissonance. Yeah. Right. And so he had to make a decision. Do I disregard Daryl's skin color and believe the truth because I know it's true and change my ideological direction? Or do I consider his skin color and continue believing a lie? That was his dilemma.

And I tell you something, I have a lot of respect for Roger Kelly because Roger Kelly became a national clan leader, which means everybody looks up to him who's of that ideology. As a leader, how do you go and tell your followers, hey guys, girls, I was wrong. What I've told you is wrong. That takes a lot. And did he do that? That's what he did. Okay.

So while you're having these meetings with him, starting a friendship, which is shocking, you became friends with a man who was one of the top people in the KKK in the United States. He's, I'm assuming, coming over for dinner and things like that. That's correct. Were you married at this time? No. Okay. So you're...

Are you looking to fill that position? No, but I'm like, if I was your wife and you're telling me like, honey, I have a KKK member coming over for dinner. I wondered like, what were your friends' reactions to that? What was your family's reactions? Yeah. Well, I'm married now. Okay. I was not married at the time.

And, yeah, my, you know, well, my friends already know that I'm crazy. So they said me, but people who don't know, they didn't understand. And I, and I for sure have my set of detractors for sure. Were you scared that it would end up violent having these people in your home? No, no, no, no, no, because I would not invite them over unless I felt comfortable. Okay. And eventually they began inviting me over to their homes. And what was that like?

Very interesting. So tell me some of the, like, funny things that happened in those scenarios. Okay. But see, you know, when you first are with these people, you're diametrically opposed. You're at opposite ends of the ideological spectrum, right? you know, how far polarized can you go? A black man and a Klansman, right? But if you spend five minutes, folks, with your worst enemy, you will find something in common, and that gap will begin to close. You spend another five minutes conversing, you will find more in common, and the chasm gets smaller.

Now, when it gets here, you are in a relationship with your arch enemy. It's a question. It's a You know, you might not be going out and having dinner and, you know, having a beer together or whatever, but you're having a relationship with that person. You spend a few more minutes talking. It closes more because you found more in common. When you get here, you are in a friendship with that person. You're being friendly with that person. And when you're here, you have found more things in common than you have in contrast. In fact, the trivial things that you have in contrast, such as skin color or whether you go to a mosque or tempt you.

a synagogue or a church, they began to matter less and less. And then those people think, why did I hate that guy? You know, but you also must be careful that, you know, you have to cultivate this relationship because you don't want that person thinking, you know, Daryl's okay for a black guy. It's all those other black people out there. Right. Okay.

So what I would do is, you know, once I felt comfortable with Roger Kelly or whoever I was dealing with, once I felt comfortable with them, I would introduce them to some of my other black friends, some of my Jewish friends, some of my white friends who look just like them, but don't believe as they believe. And that way they see, well, maybe Daryl's not the exception. Maybe I'm the exception. Maybe I need to rethink something here. So when you're in their house, tell me about some of the crazy, I don't know, conversations that ended up happening or scenarios. Well, I mean, yeah, you know, the house is full of, you know, racist memorabilia and all that kind of stuff.

But I'll tell you, I'll tell you some interesting things. So one time this clan leader, he was a minor leader, a leader of a district, caught an exalted cyclops. That's what they call a district leader, what you and I would call a councilman, you know, a council member or mayor. Anyway, he's in my car and we're driving around. And he brought up the topic of black crime. Okay.

And he says, you know, something that I'd heard before many times. that black people, he said, you know, they say, they, the invisible authority, known as they. They. Right. They say that all black people are born with a gene that makes them violent. So I'm driving. He's over here, my passenger seat, right? I'm like, you know, what do you mean?

Well, who's doing all the drive-bys and carjackings in southeast? He was referring to southeast Washington, D.C., which is predominantly black. There's some whites that live there, but it's predominantly black and very high crime-ridden. I said, okay, it's black people. I said, but that's what lives there. You're not considering the demographics. Who's doing all the crime up in Bangor, Maine, white people, because that's what lives there. He goes, no, no, no, it has nothing to do with the demographics.

You know, you all are born with this gene. And I said, listen, man, I said, I'm as black as anybody you've ever seen. I have never done a carjacking or a drive-by. How do you explain that? He didn't even hesitate to think about it. He answered me like that. He said, your gene is latent. It hasn't come out yet.

What? Yeah. Well, the gene, the gene almost came out. Yeah, right there to there, you're like, I'll let you see the gene. But, you know, it was so far out in left field. I was speechless. Did you laugh? No, I was just totally speechless.

I was dumbfounded. Like, how do you even bite onto that and chew on it, you right? It was so far out. So he's sitting over here all smug and secure. Like I got him. I got him. You got nothing to say. So I had to think.

about it for a moment. I had to go to where he is. So I use his same figure body of authority. I said, well, you know, they say that all white people, yeah, they say that all white people have a gene within them that makes them a serial killer. Oh, that's a good one. And he says, how do you figure? I said, well, name me three black serial killers. He couldn't do it. I said, here, I'm going to give you one. I named one for him. I said, now just name me two. He couldn't do it. I said, John Wayne Gacy, Henry Lee Lucas, Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, David Berkowitz, son of Sam, Albert DeSalvo, the Boston Strangler, on and on. I said, they're all white. I said, son, you are a serial killer. He said, Darrow, I never killed anybody. I said,

your genius latent hasn't come out yet. He goes, well, that's stupid. I said, well, duh. I said, you're right. It is stupid. But it's no more stupid for me to say that about you than what you said about me, and he got very, very quiet. But I can see his wheels were spinning, right? And then he changed the subject. Yeah. Within five months, this man quit the Ku Klux Klan, and his role was one of the first that I ever got.

Now that we're all about to get turkey out of our systems and gear up for Christmas feast throughout December, I've got a huge deal for you, and it's just in time for this week's Black Friday sales. It's also a fabulous gift for you or for someone you know. meat, fresh, all-American, better-than-organic meat that is free from all the antibiotic and hormone crap that is found in subpar meat. This holiday season, the best gift you can give is the gift of good ranchers. Get this.

They offer a whole selection of boxes for you to choose from. Maybe you want a box that's just chicken. Maybe you're a seafood lover. Perfect. Good ranchers offers things like rainbow trout, scallop, salmon, shrimp, or maybe you need some beef in your life. Whatever you choose, you won't be disappointed. And because it's nearly Black Friday, I have a deal for you. When you purchase from Good Ranchers, go to Good Ranchers.com slash Clark and use Code Clark, you will get two 12-ounce black Angus New York strips and two pasture-raised

chicken breasts free. It's a gift so mouthwatering and so healthy. You won't want to buy meat anywhere else for the rest of your life. That's good ranchers.com slash Clark. Code Clark, Good Ranchers. American Meat delivered. Okay, so see, this is exactly when I, when young people, when I speak at colleges and stuff and they ask me about, you know, my audience is predominantly conservative. When they talk to me like, how do I speak to a leftist about what I believe without them hating me and different things like that?

I always tell them it's not, you're planting the tiniest, tiny seed to get them to understand our point of view. They're not going to sit there in a five-minute conversation most likely and say, wow, my worldview is completely changed. Now I'm conservative or now I totally understand where you're coming from. Sometimes it's building that rapport. It's taking time over months and months and months, showing them kindness, slowly letting them get to know what you believe.

And then the wheels are turning. And then they might be like, hey, remember six months ago when you explained your stance on illegal immigration or whatever it was, I kind of understand where you were coming from now about border security. It's like little things like that. It doesn't happen overnight. And so that's such a great example of that of like, okay, it planted the seed. And it got him thinking and learning to critically think about some of this crazy stuff he was believing.

Let me tell you two things. And you use the perfect word, Alex, incremental, patience over time. That's how it works. It's not like overnight. Yeah. You know, it's not like a TV show where you've got to get, you know, the murder, the investigation, the solving it. and the prosecution all done in one hour, you know, TV show, right? It's not like that.

It's over time. And I'll give you two examples. I'm sure the people out there, you know, watching your show, they can probably see this gut that I have right here. All right. Believe it or not, I used to be a skinny guy. Okay, I put this on. I'm trying to lose it. All right.

I didn't put it on overnight. And guess what? I cannot lose it overnight. I have to work at it. Plant the seed. I got to diet. I got to exercise. And slowly over time, this will show.

shrink and I'll get back to where I want to be. That's what you've got to think about, okay? There's no magic bullet, magic pill that's going to change that. Now, second thing is this. As you probably know, as I'm sure you know, one's perception is one's reality. Whatever somebody perceives becomes their reality. Whether it's real or not, it's their reality. And you nor I can change anybody's reality.

all right. If you try to change somebody's reality, you're going to get pushback because they think it's real. They only know what they know, right? They don't know what you know. They know what they know. And if you try to attack somebody's reality, you will get pushback. It may even get violent, right? So what you want to do is don't attack or try to change somebody's reality. Better yet, offer them a better perception or better perceptions, plural. And a And if they resonate with one of your perceptions, they will change their own reality because their perception becomes their reality. So let me give you a hypothetical example. Let's say you have a seven or eight-year-old brother, and he goes to a magic show with his buddies. And he comes home and tells you, Alex, you're not going to believe this. This magician, you know, he asked for a female volunteer out of the audience, and 50 women raised their hand.

And he picked one out and told her to come up on stage. and he had her climb into this long box and put her feet out the hole at that end and put her head out the hole at this end and then he closed the box and he took a chainsaw and he went right down the middle of the box he cut the box in half

he cut her in half and he told her to wiggle her feet and she wiggled her feet and you try to tell him listen it didn't really happen that way yes it did I saw it you weren't even there I saw with my own eyes

you weren't there I'm telling you he cut her in half this is what you're going to get because you attacked his reality. He knows what he saw. You don't know what he saw. He was there. You weren't. So you're attacking his reality.

He's pushing back. And to make it even more real to you, he tells you. And then this magician took the half of the box with the feet. He moved it over here to stage right and took the head, the half with the head and moved it over there to stage left. And then he walked over there. He talked to the lady's head and she talked back to him. Right?

and then he brought the two halves back together and he did some abracadabra incantation and then opened the lid of the box and the lady climbed out full form, no blood. He cut her in half and put her back together. And you're like, listen, it's an illusion. No, it wasn't, I'm telling you, right? You're trying to change his reality again.

So then what do you do? So what you do is don't attack its reality. Give him a better perception. What you do is this. Say, listen, I understand what you're saying. do you think maybe just perhaps it might be possible that when he asked for a female volunteer and these 50 women you say raise their hands, do you think maybe the one he picked, maybe she works for him? Maybe he planted her and she travels all around the country with him, always sitting in the exact same seat in the theater.

He just points to her and brings her up. And when she climbs into the box, there's already a pair of mannequin legs. laying on the floor of the box that are wearing the same stockings and same shoes that she has on. She simply picks them up and shows them out the hole in the box and then brings her own knees up under her chest. So her whole body is on that half of the box. So the saw never touches her. So then when he cuts the box in half and tells her to wiggle her feet, she just shakes those poles and the feet move. And then when he separates the two, puts the feet over there and the head over on this side of the

stage, those feet can no longer move. So he has to take your attention off those feet. So he walks over to where the head is. And of course, you're going to follow him. And he's talking to the head. Of course she's going to talk back. Her whole body is there. And then when he brings the two halves back together, she simply pulls those mannequin dummy legs out of the hole, leaves them on the floor of the box. And she climbs out, full form, no blood, nothing. And then your brother says, hmm, you know, that might be the only way that could work. So you've offered him a better perception, and he has resonated with it and changed his own reality. Don't attack or try to change somebody's reality.

Give them better perceptions. I am dying to ask you. Did I ever try on one of the roads? Well, did you? Of course I did. Of course I did. And so how did that feel? Well, I'll tell you, you know, I've seen these people with their robes on and with their robes off.

And, you know, it's like the Superman thing. Well, by the way, what kind of people are they? Like, are these all, like, explain people that are members of the KKK. Are they white-collar workers, blue-collar workers? You said women? Yeah. There's men, women. Are there children?

Yes. Families. Yes. Yes. And I'll tell you, a white supremacist, a KKK person, a neo-Naz or whatever, these people are racist. They're not stamped out of a standard cookie cutter. They come from all walks of life. Not just the South.

Not just the South. You were in Delaware, you said. I'm in Maryland, but I've been to Delaware. I've been to all 50 states. Okay. Not just the South. They're all over, okay? They're not stamped out of a standard cookie cutter.

All educational backgrounds, all different jobs. For example, they go from third grade dropout that you see throwing chairs on certain TV talk shows, all the way to president of the United States. President Warren G. Harding was sworn into the Ku Klux Plan. in the green room of the White House. President Harry Truman, before he became president, was in the Klan for a short time. He did not like it.

He got out. Senator Robert Byrd, our oldest living senator, who just passed away a few years ago. He was a grand Cleggle, in the state of West Virginia. Grand, of course, means state level. Cleggle means recruiter for the Klan back in the 1940s. He got out of it. He later did a lot for civil rights. Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black.

Back in the day, he was. He was in the clan when he got the appointment to sit on the Supreme Court. He had to leave the clan in order to be a Supreme Court justice. So they come from all different educational backgrounds. You know, we're often exposed to the ones on TV tabloid shows who yell and scream and throw chairs. And yes, they do exist? I know a lot of those people too. Well, remember, do you remember the scandal, I don't know, a year, maybe two years ago now with Governor Northam from Virginia?

Yes. And the whole, like, there was blackface and a clans. He was one of them for Halloween. your book or whatever. I mean, and he denied that he was either of those people, but that was a huge scandal. I mean, what was your interpretation of that whole scandal? You know, Governor Northern Northman had done some wonderful things for the state of Virginia. If that was him back then, you know, I don't know. It was a poor choice. Yeah. But I don't think we should hold that against him, you know, the rest of his life. We all have done dumb things, you know, growing up. Maybe it

was him, maybe it wasn't him. But hopefully he'll never do it again if it was. So then your position, I mean, I, you know, I thought about wearing my clan robe out for Halloween. But I said, oh, no, I better not. It might ruin whatever future endeavors I might have to do. Well, that's the thing with cancel culture and stuff now. People believe, okay, they're going back years and years into people's past. They said this. They took a picture with this. Now, you know, everything needs to be stripped away from them. So what is your opinion on this rabid censorship? and canceling. We need to cancel, cancel culture.

That's my sense on it. Okay. I mean, there are literally thousands of pictures of me posing with clan members on the internet. Right. But now people accept it because that's what I do. I'm working in this field. Okay. But initially, oh man, you know, I caught all kinds of grief about that.

Well, you know, and then you think of like big tech censorship and with all these extremist groups. And they're like, we need to wipe these people off the Internet. They should never be able to post. They should never be able to post hateful rhetoric, hate speech. What are your thoughts? My thought is this. Everybody needs a platform. Okay.

In this country, the Supreme Court ruled, we have the right to hate. We don't have the right to hurt. Okay. When you hurt, you cross the line, the legal line, and that's when you can get in trouble. Hate speech is very unfortunate. it. It's very harmful, emotionally harmful, okay. But people need a platform to express that. And how you combat it is providing more positive speech. Because if you drive those people off that platform, guess what? They will find another platform, maybe in a darker area.

Is that what you've seen since 2020? Absolutely. You have more darker platforms, more nefarious stuff, and more echo chambers that support that kind of stuff. But if you give that person a platform, of course, there are going to be people who are opposed to those points of view. But we learn how to debate or converse civilly. And that way you may plant a seed in that person's mind that may give them pause for thought. But if you drive them to a dark part where their platform is welcome

or they're welcome on that platform, then they are surrounded by echo chambers and it just enables and builds up that platform and then guess what? You have an explosion because it's a pressure cooker where you don't release that valve and that's what happened in Charlottesville, Virginia.

And I know those people personally who put on that rally. So here, you know what? You saying this also brings me, reminds me, so I also disagree, even as a conservative, I also do not like the, all of a sudden this all of these different conservative only social media sites popping up

because conservatives are super mad about big tech censorship so we're like well we're going to create our own Twitter we're going to do this where it's only conservatives allowed and I'm like why do you want to live in this purposeful echo chamber where we'll never have the opportunity to change anybody's mind nobody has the opportunity to change our mind on anything I feel like it makes us less empathetic um as people and I just think that is a huge mistake to do Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, we all live in this country together and we can improve this country together if I get some of your ideas. You get some of my ideas. Together, we can iron out the differences and because we all want the best for this country ultimately. Right. Okay. It may be a little more of some of me, maybe a little more of some of you. But we both support this country and we have to know that about each other. I call it walking across the cafeteria. And what do I mean by that? You can do it physically or you can do it virtually. In many large cities, like say where we are now, Phoenix, or New York, D.C., whatever. You have schools, you have companies, corporations where kids, students, or employees work together on the same project. They may even share the same cubicle, different people from different conservative, liberal, black, white, whatever, right? They all work together on the same project. They all work together on the same project. The goal is to get this project done.

But what happens at 12? And they get along. What happens at 12 noon? They all go downstairs to the cafeteria, for lunch. Blacks sit with blacks. Hispanics are with Hispanics. This group sits with the same group, right? They self-segregate.

Does that mean that they are racist or something like that? No, not necessarily. People tend to feel more comfortable around familiarity, people who share a culture, a language, a religion, an idea, you know, a belief, a politic, whatever. All right. Now, if you try to go sit at their table and say, no, no, no, you go back to where you belong. Well, then yes, there's a problem and it needs to be addressed. But I would say once or twice a week, walk across the cafeteria, leave your comfort group. Go sit with somebody who you don't normally sit with, all right? They may not look like you. They may not share your political belief or your ideology or whatever.

Have lunch with them once or twice a week because you have a lot to teach them about you and you have a lot. a lot to learn about them from them, all right? And in the process, you will make a friend. And that way it makes it easier to share your ideas. If you're working from home or remotely, do it virtually over the internet. Contact one of your counterparts who's in another state. Say, hey, you know, during lunch, just sit down and, you know, get to know one another outside of the project that we're working on. Yeah. Walk across the cafeteria. About a year ago, President Biden said that white supremacy was the most lethal threat to the United States of America.

Do you agree or disagree with that? I agree with that. I agree with that. It's the most lethal, lethal domestic threat. I'll add in the word domestic. Yes, absolutely. And let me tell you why I agree with that. I've been doing this for 40 years.

And I can tell you what's going on in our country right now. This country, the United States, was built on a two-tier society. white supremacy at the top, slavery at the bottom. And as we progress through the decades, we progress like this. Maybe like this, but never like this. So you're saying one keeps going higher and one's always below it. One's always below. Meaning black Americans.

Yes. And minorities, even women. Okay. So now, when I was a child, the black population in this country, country was 12%. Native Americans, 1%. Latino, Hispanic people, almost 2%. Asians, almost 3%. Whites were like 86, 87%.

All right? The U.S. Census is taken every 10 years. If you want to see the trend, all you've got to do is go to uscensus.gov, and you'll see it by decade by decade, all right? Today, black people remain right around 12%. 12.9, so almost 13%. We really have not grown. Native Americans remain at 1%.

Hispanic people have more than quadrupled. They're 17.something percent. Asians have almost doubled. They're almost at 6%. 5.9%. So if you take just 12% black, 17% Latino-Hispanic, that right there is 29% non-white. this is happening, all right, let alone the Asians and anybody else, right?

It is well, I knew this back in 1982. It is well predicted in the year 2042, which is only two decades from now, for the first time in U.S. history, this country will be 50-50. Of racist. 50% white, 50% non-white. Between 2045 and 2050, that's going to happen. Yeah, they're saying I think that Gen Z is going to be the most diverse, racially generation, I think. I believe that's right. And there is a large percentage of white people who don't care.

Hey, I'm cool with that. No Big Deal. Doesn't bother me. That's evolution. There's also a large swath of white people who do care. And those are the white separatists, the white supremacists, the white nationalists, is all one and the same. Okay? They just use different branding.

Right. Okay, they care and, you know, they want to stop that. And what they tell me, the neo-Nazis, the Klan, the all right, the different people that I work with, Daryl, I don't want my grandkids to be brown. They call it the Browning of America or white genocide through miscegenation, through race mixing. When I first started this work, like I said, 40 years ago, there was the Ku Klux Klan, white-powered skinheads, neo-Nazis, those three groups. Now you've got the clan, the neo-Nazis, the skinheads, the oathkeepers, the proud boys, the three-percenters, the Boogaloo boys, the Vanguard, on and on and on, on, on. And they're all saying, come join us, come join us. You know, we're going to take our country back. We're going to make America great again. We're going to send those people back to where they belong. People out of fear of being, of their identity being erased, are running and joining these groups. Do you know the term white flight? No. Okay, that's because you're young. I would try to think.

I'm like, I don't think so. Well, white flight is something that was happening. It doesn't have so much anymore. There used to be neighborhoods that even had covenants. Oh, when the black people moved in, the white people wanted to leave? Right. Okay, yes, I do. I do know that.

That's about white flight. White flight barely exists anymore because the color of the American landscape has changed so much that anywhere you go, there's already somebody there who doesn't look like you. So these people are feeling erased. You know, we built this country, we discovered this country, we wrote the Constitution. But you think these people are the majority? No, no, no. I didn't say that.

No, no, no. There's a large swath of white people who don't buy into that, but there's also a swath that do buy into it. And these are the ones that I'm talking about. And so they run and join these groups that promise to take our country back. Right. To make it great again, you know, in their mind, you know, when they were dominant, et cetera. All right. And so what happens is they run and join these groups.

But when the group fails to take the country back to where it used to be, they say, you know what, if the Klan can't do it or the neo-Nazis can't do it or the alt-right can't do it, I'll do it myself. And they walk into a black church, boom, boom, boom, or a synagogue in Pittsburgh, boom, boom, the Walmart in El Paso and murder 23 Hispanic people, the Buffalo grocery store in New York, shoot up nine black people, the store. the Sikh Indian Temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin, and murder Sikh Indian people. These people who do this are called lone wolves.

They're acting on their own. Now, we have intelligence agencies in this country that have some operatives that can fit the profile of some of these group members. And they go and join these groups undercover. They gather intelligence. They report it back. And then they're able to squash some of these plots. For example, you remember, was it last year, this group in Michigan was going to kidnap and murder the governor of Michigan. Right.

We already had operatives in that group that got that intelligence, which is why that didn't happen. All right. So while we may be able, well, I'll say we, I mean the intelligence community, while we may be able to infiltrate some of those groups, how do you infiltrate a lone wolf? It's only one person. You can't do it. All right. as we get closer and closer to 2042, we're going to see more and more of these lone wolves. Yeah, but you also have.

But, Daryl, even during, you know, 2020, for example, so many attacks when it came, you know, with Antifa, hurting white Americans also. And then you have tons and tons of Asian crime done, especially in inner cities, black people on Asians, you're seeing that in New York City, Jewish people. I mean, some would say that's happening just across the board. Just violence is up everywhere. We saw it with the capital insurrection, which is mostly white people. Right.

So, yes, you know, it's all across the board for what people stand for and what they believe in. But violence is not the answer, which is why I'm grateful to people like you for having the courage to have these conversations. Because a lot of people will not want to talk about this. Well, I know. And you, weren't you called a white supremacist by Antifa? Yeah, Antifa called me a white supremacist. So what did you think about that? I thought, well, you know what? They just lost that battle. All you got to do is look at me.

You know, you can tell I'm not a white supremacist. I'm not a white anything. Okay, so how do we become as people less offended or less easily offended? Okay. Let me give you an example. True example. I'm sitting across the table. interviewing some clamly to Imperial Wizard or Grand Dragon. And how can you hate me? You don't even know me. You just met me five minutes ago. Well, Mr. Davis, you have to understand something.

You know, black people are prone to crime. And this is evidenced by the fact that there are more black people in prison than white people. Well, guess what? What he is saying is 100% true. The data, the statistics show that there are more black people in prison than white people. but his reasoning is flawed. It's not because we're more prone to crime. It's because there is an imbalance in our judicial system

that sends black people to prison longer than white people. That's why many states, when they put a moratorium on the death penalty, it's because more black people were being executed for the same crimes that white people did where the white perpetrator got life in prison or life with parole. Okay, but the black people went to death.

That's why... But is it discrepancies in the judicial system or black people committing more crimes? No, a discrepancy in the judicial system. Okay. And that's what the studies will show, all right? Now, he doesn't, he doesn't, you know, because the data and the stats, that's just raw data and stats, which are correct, that's all he needs to support his already racist thinking, you know, that black people are already prone to crime. And now the data supports what I think. I don't need to look any further.

If you were to look further, he would find exactly what I'm telling you. I don't stop him. I just sit back and listen because people want to be heard. So he's calling me a criminal, right? Right. Okay. So then he goes on to say, you know, black people are inherently lazy. You know, we don't want to work.

We prefer to scam the government welfare system. We always have our hands out for a freebie, you know, affirmative action, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So now he's calling me lazy. I'm sitting here just listening. And then he goes on to say, and this is the one that gets me. And I've heard this before many times. Black people are born with a smaller brain.

The larger the brain, which is what white people have, the more capacity for intelligence. The smaller the brain, the lower the IQ. And this is evidenced by the fact that every year, black students score lower than white kids on the SATs. Again, what he is saying is true. Not about the size of the brain, but the SAT scores. black kids year after year consistently score lower than white kids.

All right. The data does show that. Statistics do show that. But now he's calling me basically stupid. All right. Now, I know that I have more education than he does. Right. I know he barely made it out of high school.

I know my SAT scores sent me to college and he didn't even go. All right. So, but I'm not going to throw that in his face because that would just bring up his wall and shut down. So I let him finish, all right. And I said, look, I don't have a criminal record. I'm as black as anybody you've ever seen. Guess what? I've never been on welfare.

My, I don't say you didn't even go to college. I say, you know, I'm black. My SAT scores, you know, got me a college degree, knowing that he never even made it out of high school or barely made out of high school. I could say, no, you're the one who's a criminal. You're the one hanging black men from trees and dragging them behind pickup truck. and bombing their churches, I would be 100% correct. Both would be super extreme.

You know what I mean? In pigeonholing, like you represent as one person, all of these different things. Exactly. But the clan does. Right. The clan has a 156-year history of doing that. Yes. Okay, so I would be 100% correct.

But if I did that, that would shut him down. You know, he would not want to talk anymore, okay? And the conversation would be over. Oh, because he was, you're saying him as a clan member. Yeah. Okay, yes. So rather than a. attack him, you know, I defend myself.

I speak in terms of me. You know, hey, I don't have a criminal record. I've never been on welfare. My SAT scores were high enough that I got into college into a good college. Yeah. Right? Okay. Because I want to give him something to walk away with and think about.

And that's what happens. Okay. Now, is what he's saying to me offensive? You know, you're asking me, how do you have these conversations out being offended? Is what he's saying to me offensive? Absolutely, it's offensive. Am I offended? Absolutely not.

Why am I not offended by that? Because I know who I am. How am I going to let somebody walk into this room and only meet me for five minutes? All they see is this and they're going to make those assessments about me. I'm stupid. I'm on welfare and I'm a criminal. I know who I am. Yeah.

Don't go into a room. somebody like that unless you know who you are. Because if you don't know who you are, they're going to tell you who you are and you might walk out of there believing them. Yeah. Okay? So do your homework, know who they are and know who you are. Don't take it personally.

Now, if my mother or my father told me, Daryl, you know, you're lazy and you're also kind of stupid and you're prone to doing criminal things, I might believe them. They brought me into this world. They raised me. But not somebody. I just met five minutes ago, they can't make that assessment about me. So don't let somebody's false assessments define who you are. Because if you do, you are empowering them.

Why give that person that kind of power? Do you think that America today is equally as racist as we were in the 60s, less or more? Racism has always existed in this country. All right. it was a lot more overt in the past, then it kind of went underground, if you will. It's never gone away. Right. Okay.

Under the carpet, behind the rock, in the closet, however you want to call it. And then in the last four years, there's been an uptick in it. Actually, in the last 12 years, there's been an uptick in it. First, having a black president caused some people to really come out of a, of their comfort zone and rail against, you know, black people and things like that. And then in the last four years, the pot has been stirred with the last president. And so people are more overt about it again. But this is a good thing because now it's in your face.

It has to be addressed. You know, some people turn a blind eye to it. If I don't see it, then it doesn't exist. Now you see it. You have to address it. Otherwise, you'll become a victim of it. So, yes, it is still here. It's very prevalent.

We have come a long ways in this country, but we still have a long ways to go. Look at all the controversy over Confederate monuments and the Confederate battle flag and all that. I don't speak for everybody, okay, but I'm going to give you my opinion. And think about it this way. Anybody who knows American history knows that there were many black people. who fought in the Confederacy. My ancestors fought in the Confederacy, okay? Why?

Because they were slaves. And slaves had to fight for their slave masters. As I explained earlier on, even though I was born in Chicago because my dad had a job there, my parents are from Virginia. Virginia was the seat of the Confederacy, Robert E. Lee and all that stuff, right? Right. My ancestors were slaves. My slave ancestors fought in the Confederacy.

Now, do I honor the Confederacy? Absolutely not. Do I honor my ancestors? Absolutely. Now, there are some black people who do honor the Confederacy. That's their prerogative. I don't agree with it, but I accept it if that's what they want to do, if that's how they want to honor their ancestors, go for it. I honor mine another way, because mine were forced to fight for the Confederacy. They were slaves. All right. So now, here's the thing. This country went to war against Great Britain. We beat Great Britain, which is why we celebrate the 4th of July every year, right? Right. Okay, we got our independence from Great Britain. The second highest majority of white people in this country are of British descent. The largest majority of white people in this country are of German descent. The white Americans of British descent, they have ancestors in Great Britain.

They have distant cousins over there. And we love Great Britain, all right? But these people, they don't go out and build statues to King George III or fly the Union Jack. Great Britain lost. The loser does not get to build his statues or fly his flag on the winner's property. We went to war against Japan when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, right? We beat Japan. There are plenty of Japanese Americans who are just as American as you or I.

All right. They have ancestry back in Japan and relatives back in Japan, and they love their, their former country, their heritage. But they don't go out and build statues to Emperor Hirohito or fly the Japanese flag. They're Americans. And Japan lost. The Confederate flags, that's never been a hill that I felt like I needed to die on. Like, that's never been, I have no problem with that.

You know what I mean? But wait a minute. Okay. Hold on. So now we went to war against Germany. The vast majority of white Americans of this country are of German descent. They don't go out and build statues to Adolf Eichmann or Joseph Goebbels or Adolf Hitler and fly swastikas unless they're neo-Nazis. Right.

So the loser does not get to build his statue or fly his flag on the winner's property, right? These people want to fly that Confederate battle flag and have their Confederate statues. No. The Civil War was fought over slavery. End of story. In the north, if you go to high school, you were taught it was fought over slavery. In the South, if you go to high school, you were taught. No, no, no, no, no.

It was fought over states' rights. Yes, it was fought over states' rights. The state's right to own a slave. They just reframe it a different way. It's the same thing, all right? Slavery was not a good thing. Oh, this is my heritage. Let me tell you something.

The South has a lot to be proud of, a whole lot to be proud of. Slavery is not one of those things. And, you know, name me two football teams. Any two, national football teams? The Patriots and the Dolphins. Okay, the Patriots and the Dolphins. All right, let's say they end up in the Super Bowl against each other. All right, who wins?

Pick one. Patriots. Okay, so the Patriots win the Super Bowl. Every Patriot on that team gets a Super Bowl ring, right? Yep. Should every Dolphin also get a Super Bowl ring? No. Thank you.

Thank you. So the loser doesn't get to build his stack to a flight of flag. Okay, get over it. This is the USA, United States of America, not the CSA Confederate States of America. The Confederacy laws, get over it. But one thing that you do say that I have to ask, okay, when you said, well, a lot of people, when Barack Obama got elected, you know, some of the races came out because they didn't want a black president. And then you said that you felt like that also exploded during the four years of. Trump, but how do you explain President Obama at the time being the most voted for president? And also a lot of the same people that voted for Barack Obama also ended up voting for President Trump. A lot of them did. Okay, some people who didn't like what he did, didn't like some of his policies, which is fine. There is no one president fits all.

Right. You know, we know that. True. Okay. President, former President Barack Obama was also the most threatened president. Okay. Secret Service agents who remain anonymous because they're not supposed to talk about the kind of stuff have said that. Yeah.

Okay. Why is that? Because this country is still racist. I remember talking to people when Barack Obama was running, Hillary Clinton was running, John McCain, whoever else, right? And people would tell me, I can't vote for a black man. And I cannot vote for a woman. And I'm not going to vote for a Republican. So I'm just not going to vote.

Yeah. So you've got chauvinism going on. This country is so screwed up in many ways. Yes. It's my country. We can agree on that. Yeah. You know, I mean, but, you know, our country can only become one of two things.

It can become that which we sit back and watch it become, or it can become that which we stand up and make it become. So we have to ask ourselves the question, do I want to sit back and see what my country becomes? Or do I want to stand up and make it become what I want to see? I've chosen the latter, okay? Because, you know, it was crazy when Hillary and Barack Obama and Mitt Romney and McCain were running and all the kind of stuff. He was saying, you know, every channel you turned on, whether it was Fox, CNN, MSNBC, the topic was, can a black man be president? Can a woman be president? Can a Mormon be president?

I just want a president that can run the country. Okay, you know? And, you know, but we had the same problem back in the early 1960s with John F. Kennedy. Can a Catholic become president? John F. Kennedy was the first Catholic president in this country. Some of that stuff is also, I just think, the media sensationalizing things to just have a story. But listen, listen, we consider ourselves the greatest nation on the face of this earth. Don't get me wrong.

I love my country. I'm a patriot, okay? I have a problem with that statement. There are third world countries out here that have female presidents, have female prime ministers. But they're not as free as us. We're supposed to be a first world country. But ideologically, they are way ahead of us. Perhaps we are the greatest nation on the face of this earth technologically.

After all, we Americans put a man on the moon first before anybody else. We built the technology to put Neil Armstrong up there on that moon. And while Neil Armstrong was walking around, talking about one small step for man and one giant leap from mankind, we were able to talk to Neil Armstrong live, live, from Earth all the way to the moon via satellite radio phone. We invented that technology. Everyone in your audience has email, has a cell phone, type a few numbers, type a few words hit send. They're talking to people all the way across the country. around the face of this earth, right?

We created that technology. How is it that we as Americans can talk to people as far away as the moon or anywhere on the face of this earth, but yet we have so much difficulty talking to the person right next door or at our dinner table because they are politically opposed to us or a different color, a different religion,

a different persuasion, a different whatever? It seems to me that before we can call ourselves the greatest, perhaps our ideology needs to catch up to our technology. And once we get them both up there, then we can truly brag about how great we are. Because we are living in the 21st century. We are living in space age times. But there's still too many of us thinking with Stone Age minds. Daryl Davis, you've been on Joe Rogan's podcast multiple times.

And hold I'll be on yours multiple times. I would love it. I would love it. This is a, you know, it's something she said I know that we disagree, but also my mind, I feel like has also been open to understanding so much more where you come from. And this is exactly why people should have conversations like this and hopefully will during their Thanksgiving dinner. And so if people are like, okay, I am curious. I want to hear more about Daryl's story, everything that he's done.

Where can they read about you or listen to more from you? Go to my website. It's Darrell D-A-R-D-A-R-L, D-A-V-I-I-S. And you can email me at Daryl at Daryl Davis.com. I try to answer all my emails. I love to hear from people. Daryl, it's been an honor. Thank you for coming on this bill over.

Thank you for having me, Alice. And have a happy Thanksgiving. You too. And say hello to your family. Thank you. Does he not have one of the best voices? Like, I could listen to him talk for hours. Now, for those of you who are conservative who watched or are listening, I'm sure that

there were moments where you might have disagreed with Daryl politically. I didn't agree with everything he said necessarily in regards to women still being at a lesser standard in this country or black people being incarcerated just because they're black. But also, some of you watching or listening may disagree more with my views on these topics. Who knows? Especially if a family member played this podcast in the car or turned it on in the living room after dinner and you got roped into hearing this conversation against your will. I don't mind, though, because the whole point of this conversation was to hear someone else's point of view by giving him a platform and respecting what he had to say. So if you're dreading the

dinner table conversation this thing. Thanksgiving, I hope you can remember those five things Daryl said that every human being is looking for in a conversation or debate to feel respected. And I hope that Daryl's message has encouraged you to face those family members that you've had some tension with due to political views or whatever and to remember that our long-term relationships with people are far more important than the short time someone holds political office. I love that he said that. That is such a good point. And by the way, this Thanksgiving, I just want you to know how thankful I am for you. Now, we eat turkey.

By the way, I can do a really good turkey govel ready. Was that pretty good? That's right. That's why you didn't tell it. Okay. If you enjoyed the subject matter of this conversation, you should listen to the spillover season two, episode two. The title is how I went from a communist cop hating leftist to conservative.

The spillover, by the way, is back next third. Day at 9 p.m. Pacific, midnight Eastern on Apple Podcasts and Spotify with a brand spank a new episode. This one is all pop culture, no politics. So no matter where you are on the political spectrum, you are going to love it. If you like insider scoop and knowledge on A-list celebrities, everyone from Justin Bieber's

marriage, we're going to be talking about to Taylor Swift's sexuality. Very juicy. Watch each episode of The Spillover by subscribing to Pop Politics on YouTube. That is also where every daily episode of my show, Poplittics is hosted where I cover pop culture from a conservative perspective.

I'm Alex Clark and this is the spillover. Happy Thanksgiving. Love you. Mean it. Bye.